1 Wednesday, 13 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 The Chamber has made some inquiries, and although we should not

10 spend too much time on it, the information we received, Ms. Pilipovic, is

11 that the registrar was informed about a change in schedule, but the

12 victims and witness unit was not informed yesterday.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, good morning. I'm

14 now thinking -- I know I had the information at 4.00 that the witness who

15 was planned to testify by videolink would not be able to testify, so my

16 assessment was that yesterday we would be able to finish early. And I'm

17 absolutely certain that I informed my associate to inform the victims and

18 witness unit so that the other witness could prepare. I don't know

19 whether there were any other problems along the way, and I cannot say

20 anything about it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The victims and witness unit has informed me that

22 they received no phone call, nor a written message. What I saw was a

23 message which is a bit confusing as far as the time is concerned. That's

24 the last one they received about the original schedule. As lead counsel,

25 you should verify whether the information is sent. It happened once

1 during the Prosecution case that we lost a couple of hours because

2 nonavailability of a witness who was present in The Hague as far as I

3 remember. The Chamber then said that it deplored that it happened, and it

4 should not happen again. The same is true for the Defence.

5 Let's then now continue. Mr. Usher -- I take it that the Defence

6 is ready to continue the examination-in-chief of Witness DP 20.

7 Mr. Usher --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will

9 continue. And in order not to waste time, we will proceed although I have

10 to say that I am not feeling quite up to it.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is the reason the incident we just discussed, or is

13 there any other reason? If it's -- if we should take care, then please

14 inform us. Then if not, then I'll just accept that you have perhaps not

15 an easy time.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I just wanted to say that

17 perhaps my voice will leave along with the rest.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the Chamber is happy that at least the Defence,

19 one day Ms. Pilipovic loses her voice, and only the other day then you,

20 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. Please proceed.

21 Mr. DP20, can you still hear me in a language you understand?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

24 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 WITNESS: WITNESS DP20 [Resumed]

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin. [Continued]

6 Q. Good morning, Witness. Last time we tried to have you have a look

7 at an exhibit which must still be with Madam Registrar. And this was

8 D1724. And this exhibit is a report of United Nations --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think we were in -- we still

10 have to decide whether at this very moment this could be presented to the

11 witness because the Prosecution objected. We then ordered you to first

12 ask the witness about the document, and we have to decide whether this has

13 been sufficiently done before we --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President.

15 I had finished by saying that we thought that we had gone far enough and

16 that we could continue the following time with the document, and my

17 impression was that the Prosecution wasn't objecting at the time.

18 MR. IERACE: That's incorrect, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But rather discuss this not in the presence of

20 the witness, I'm very sorry that after we asked you to come in that we

21 have to ask you to leave so soon. I hope you have some understanding for

22 our procedural issues. May I ask the usher to escort you out of the

23 courtroom.

24 Mr. Ierace.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Trial Chamber required the Defence

1 to -- first to put questions to the witness before confronting him with

2 the document as such. The questions which the Defence then put to the

3 witness did not relate to the contents of the document, other than at one

4 point Mr. Piletta-Zanin said "I would like to go back to the issue of the

5 summer campaign in 1993. You said it was a large-scale offensive. Did it

6 use artillery?" And that was it. I think that what's required, in my

7 respectful submission, is for the Defence to ask the witness what

8 happened, if anything, in July -- in late July of 1993 in relation to the

9 sorts of activities which are contained in the document so that we have an

10 account from the witness of the relevant events or lack of events which

11 are referred to in the document, and then he can be shown -- he can be

12 informed as to the contents of the document. I say that in order to be

13 consistent with the ruling that you have made, as I understand it. Thank

14 you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when a witness

17 is speaking of a large-scale operation, that says enough. And I believe

18 that I've expressed myself in under two lines.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to understand. What I understood

20 from your questions is that there was an offensive, and although it was

21 not entirely clear, launched by the BiH forces. Is that what your

22 questions were about? I mean, offensive was not located.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. What the witness should

24 tell us is whether there was or not a large-scale operation in this part

25 of the year, in 1993. I believe his answer was yes. Now what I'd like to

1 hear is whether what we have before us, 3.000 impacts, actually conform

2 with reality, and this is what I want to know about, is whether this was

3 audible, these noises of the fighting. And according to that, we would be

4 able to conclude other things in relation to the testimony.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that I understand you well, that you take

6 it that the evidence until now is that the BiH forces launched an attack,

7 or...?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness

9 spoke of a considerable offensive, and I believe that the witness said

10 that they themselves were in defensive, and therefore an offensive must

11 have come from the side of the BiH army. I believe this is how we should

12 interpret what he said.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was my understanding as well. When I just

14 briefly read what is in the 24th of July report, that is, that there was

15 an offensive against the BiH forces which is a totally different thing, so

16 I think that before confronting the witness whether these sounds could be

17 heard, it should be clear from the beginning whether this would be a

18 useful document for reference because it describes the situation, as far

19 as I can see it at first glance, in a rather different way.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but Mr. President, we

21 often saw - and this is another thing that we want to prove - is that

22 these documents are not always correct. On several occasions, we've

23 established that, for instance, you have a hundred outgoing shots, it

24 doesn't mean we have a hundred incoming shots. So here, when we are

25 speaking about an attack or an offensive that was led by the Serb forces,

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1 again, what we need to know is that perhaps this is a response to an

2 activity that may have occurred just before, or even at the same time. So

3 to base ourselves just on the text itself doesn't seem to be essential.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, but if you want to hear from a witness whether he

5 could have heard or whether he heard 3.000 impacts, then at least it

6 should be clear what impacts we are talking about. If you say well, it

7 might be on the other side of the confrontation line, then it might become

8 rather confusing. But let me just confer with --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If, for instance, this

12 witness -- this is the idea. This witness is a professional soldier. He

13 has got experience of the field, of the ground. Could he know whether,

14 for instance, when there were at least 3.000 shots that were recorded in a

15 specific area, could he tell us, yes or no, whether we could hear

16 something at a distance about 2 or 3 kilometres from there. For the

17 Defence, that seems obvious.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, as such, the Chamber does not

20 consider that it would be inappropriate to confront the witness with this

21 document, but it should be perfectly clear before we do so what is the

22 issue. I think there are three issues. Do you want to elicit from the

23 witness general information of what you could hear in a combat situation,

24 or do you want to know specifically what he might have heard on the 24th

25 of July, 1993? That's the first question.

1 The second question is: If you want to ask him questions about

2 the 3.000 impacts, it should at least be clear that we are talking about

3 the same 3.000 impacts that he talks about, the same number of impacts as

4 the document does, and the document speaks about impacts received on the

5 BiH side whereas the testimony until now seems to suggest, although it's

6 not very clear, that the firing was rather in opposite direction.

7 Then the third question is if you want to know in general whether

8 you could hear shell impacts at a distance of 3.000 metres, I think, or

9 two kilometres or three kilometres, I think you can ask the witness. And

10 as such, the document does not greatly assist in eliciting such general

11 knowledge not related to the 24th of July and not related to the specific

12 combat situation. So if you would first clarify exactly the issues, then

13 ask the witness what he knows. For example, if you say we are talking

14 about the 24th, then ask him specifically what happened on the 24th, and

15 then of course you can confront him with the document if it's still

16 relevant on the basis of his answers.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to

18 specify, the 24th is a very special day for a specific incident when other

19 witnesses said that there was no combat. They didn't hear anything, so it

20 seems normal to us to be able to go as far as that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so first ask him whether he knows anything

22 specific about the 24th, and then also clarify the other issues before you

23 confront the witness with the document, and also that at least it's clear

24 whether his testimony is in line with the document or is -- and then he

25 can explain himself.

1 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Witness, can you hear me?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, yesterday you spoke to us about an offensive which took

6 place by the end of the month of July in 1993. Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. You spoke about a large-scale offensive. What did you

9 mean by that? Could you be -- perhaps, tell us a little more about it?

10 Could you elaborate?

11 A. In March 1993, there was a truce that was signed. In the

12 beginning, it was relatively respected, and I believe that later on, in

13 July I think, it was no longer respected. The offensive started from the

14 inside, from the city, and also on the ring surrounding the city, on the

15 outside of the city. That is, from the positions around Sarajevo.

16 Q. Very well. Did the troops of the VRS respond, and were they what

17 we call artillery duels?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, if I tell you that this offensive

20 of July took place around the 24th of July, is that what you remember? So

21 by the end of the month of July 1993; is that what you remember?

22 MR. IERACE: Objection, leading.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes, but I'm

25 trying to follow your instructions so that we can see whether the

1 witness's memory is conformed with the document. If not, we can just show

2 him the document.

3 JUDGE ORIE: My instruction was not to lead the witness; my

4 instruction was to find out from the witness.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed.

6 Q. Witness, can you tell us, please, during which period in the month

7 of July that this offensive took place?

8 A. The second half of July.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I submit

10 the document.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. You should clarify the issues

12 I asked you about.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

14 Q. Witness, when these combat took place, these fightings, when this

15 offensive started, you spoke of a large-scale operation, does this mean

16 that there were many exchanges of fire?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, when such means were used like tank shells or

19 grenade launchers of large calibre were used, does the noise of the

20 explosion -- can it be heard?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. When this fighting took place, and I'm talking about

23 the second half of July 1993, were you able to hear, you personally, the

24 noise of the explosion in the distance -- of the explosions in the

25 distance?

1 A. You could hear explosions all over the place. It's very hard to

2 tell whether this was far away or nearby. It's hard to assess because

3 it's fighting. It's combat.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, when we have strong explosions that take

5 place, is it possible to hear it in the distance so that they are

6 deafening?

7 A. I didn't understand the question.

8 Q. When you have very strong explosion, cannon firing, grenades

9 firing, grenades exploding --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Mr. Piletta-Zanin asked a number of

12 questions on the last occasion to the effect to -- as to the issue of what

13 could be heard of artillery over a distance. I think the witness has

14 given answers to those questions and --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me ask you one question. If you heard

16 explosions in the distance, could you make any distinction on whether

17 these were explosions from the shells you fired or shells being fired from

18 the BiH side?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During combat, when there's

20 explosion coming from all over the place it's very hard to assess because

21 you have deafening noise from all sides. So I would say that's

22 impossible.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Also, do I understand that you hear the

24 explosion as deafening, that you at least hear the explosion? We agree on

25 that I take it?

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1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, explosion can be heard from all

2 sides.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed. I think if you'd like to

5 confront the witness with the document, I think it could be done. But

6 please keep in mind what his testimony until now is.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the witness

8 be shown the document, please.

9 Q. Witness, I know that you don't have very good knowledge of

10 English, so you will have to concentrate on the translation. I'm going to

11 read the first paragraph of -- paragraph about the 24th of July, 1993.

12 And the heading "Military Activity." I'm going to ask you a number of

13 questions, and I'd like you to remember the text that you're hearing now.

14 [In English] "Shelling activities throughout the afternoon and past dusk.

15 Serbian forces renewed artillery and infantry assault on BH forces

16 defending strategic hillsides on the northeast edge of Sarajevo. The city

17 was hit with tank, artillery and mortar shells on the hillsides of

18 Kobilja Glava, Slatina, and Kromolj. UNPROFOR reported that the

19 BH-controlled area of Zuc was shelled and that over 3.000 impacts were

20 recorded. It was reported that the BH forces appeared to be holding their

21 own but they are sustaining heavy losses." Source is New York Times,

22 UNPROFOR.

23 [Interpretation] Witness, I think that you remember the names that

24 I gave you. I'm going to repeat the names because they do not appear in

25 the English transcript. These names are Kobilja Glava, Slatina, and,

1 Kromolj, and then the Zuc hill. Witness, this mention of 3.000 hits, does

2 this seem to you to be in concordance with the facts that you remember

3 about the offensive from the second half of July of 1993? I'm talking

4 about the scale.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. The witness was not asked

6 in the absence of the document what recollection he had of impacts on that

7 particular day. Therefore the effect --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Two lines. Two lines.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is not the tone on which you

10 speak to the other party. If you think that Mr. Ierace takes more than

11 two lines, you can address me.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the combined effect is leading.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 Mr. DP20, do you have a clear recollection of the approximate

15 number of shells fired on specifically the 24th of July, 1993?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you with certainty.

17 JUDGE ORIE: During these days, were these shells fired in numbers

18 of hundreds or even above thousands in your recollection, general idea of

19 the intensity of what you just called the artillery duel.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The intensity was high of this

21 artillery duel. There was a lot of exchange of grenades from both sides.

22 I can say there were many, but I cannot tell you the exact number and it

23 went from both sides.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It went from both sides. Equally from both sides, or

25 would one side fire substantially more rounds than the other would do?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More or less equally. I don't know

2 whether one side fired more than the other.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If this document says that there were 3.000 impacts

4 recorded on the BiH side, would a total number of, then, double, that

5 means 6.000 impacts sound reasonable to you, or would you say, well, it

6 was not that intensive or it was even far more intensive?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, it's

8 illogical. I don't see how someone could count 3.000 impacts. You could

9 only subsequently have a look at how many shells were fired. But to count

10 3.000 explosions, in my opinion, this is impossible. What I can say is

11 that there was a lot of firing, when there's an exchange of artillery

12 fired throughout the dawn then it is intense. But I can't provide you

13 with a precise number and I don't see how someone could come up with the

14 number of 3.000.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking you for a precise number. But is it

16 correct that there were thousands of shells, I'm talking about shells from

17 both sides fired?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. Witness, could you please tell me, what is the distance as the

22 crow flies, between Kobilja Glava, and Sedrenik?

23 A. About 3 to 4.000 metres as the crow flies, roughly speaking.

24 Q. Thank you very much. The same question with regard to Slatina and

25 Sedrenik, please.

1 A. I'm not familiar with Slatina.

2 Q. And as far as Kromolj and Sedrenik is concerned, what is the

3 approximate distance?

4 A. Well, Kromolj and Sedrenik, this is closer. It's closer in

5 relation to Kobilja Glava. Perhaps 1 to 2.000 metres as the crow flies.

6 Q. Thank you very much. And the distance between Zuc and Sedrenik,

7 please?

8 A. Zuc is further away. Perhaps 5 to 6.000 metres.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when a large number of shells, tank

10 shells or mortar shells fall in an area which is about 2.000 metres from

11 Sedrenik, according to your testimony, can one hear the sound that these

12 explosions make in Sedrenik, at a distance of 2.000 metres, for example?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much. When you say that it is possible to hear the

15 sound, is this something that is certain, or given all the noise that you

16 heard on your side, and you said it was a deafening noise, was this

17 possible?

18 A. Yes, I'm saying this on the basis of my personal experience. You

19 can hear it, this large number creates a terrible noise.

20 Q. Thank you. Thank you very much. Witness, before we have a look

21 at the second document that we're going to show you in a minute, but I can

22 always -- that I can provide the usher with now. That might be more

23 practical if we do this. I'll give its number in a minute. But I would

24 first like to ask you some questions about weapons and about the results

25 of the use of certain weapons. Did you have the opportunity, Witness, of

1 observing the results of grenade attacks? And when I said "grenade," I

2 mean mortar shells.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, did you have the opportunity of

5 seeing the traces of a crater caused by a 120-millimetre shell?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, did you have the opportunity of

8 seeing the traces of a 120-millimetre shell which hit a hard surface, to

9 be more specific, which fell on an asphalt surface?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. First of all, Witness, where did you see these traces?

12 Could you be a little more specific?

13 A. Well, yes, when there was shelling from Hresa towards Zecja Glava.

14 Yes, I saw this on several occasions.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, when you saw a crater caused by a

16 120-millimetre shell, could you describe to the Trial Chamber what this

17 crater looked like?

18 A. I apologise. What kind of terrain are you referring to?

19 Q. I apologise. I'm talking about a crater in asphalt.

20 A. Well, it's not a very deep --

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. -- One moment, please. Of course, the

23 interpreters have to finish what they say. Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: Given the guidelines yesterday, and the specific

25 example you gave, it's my respectful submission this evidence should not

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1 be permitted.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can I respond?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, briefly. My question to you is, does it appear

4 from your summary that the impact of shells is an issue you are going to

5 raise with this witness?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. First of

7 all, this witness started his testimony before you issued your order. And

8 secondly, we used the exact formula as in the case of the witness who

9 preceded him. And we spoke about arms in general, and we meant the use of

10 arms and the results of arms. This was before the order was issued. And

11 we will be a lot more precise with other witnesses. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: On the basis of the order of yesterday, you should

13 have informed the Prosecution that specifically that issue would be dealt

14 with by this witness as well. You may proceed at this moment. The

15 Chamber will consider whether and if what consequences this should have.

16 But it would have been appropriate to inform the Prosecution yesterday.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,

19 Mr. President.

20 Q. When you saw a crater in a hard surface, could you describe what

21 this crater looked like. Could you describe it for the Chamber, please.

22 A. Well, it's not very deep. You can see the centre of the impact,

23 and around -- you can see the fragments of the shell on the asphalt. It

24 depends on where the shell came from. At one point, it's a little deeper;

25 and in other areas, all you can see are the fragments.

1 Q. Thank you very much. Have you seen many traces of impacts such as

2 the one you have just described for us, Witness?

3 A. Well, during this period, yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, what would happen with what we call the

5 tail-fin, the stabiliser which is at the rear of the shell?

6 A. Well, the stabiliser, since when the shell hits, it goes -- it's

7 detached. It goes astray. I don't know how many metres astray, but it

8 does.

9 Q. On the basis of your personal experience and with regard to

10 120-millimetre shells on hard surfaces, did you ever find tail-fins which

11 were embedded in the crater, which were literally embedded in the asphalt?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness, I now want to deal with the issue of range,

14 rifle range. And I'm not referring to the effective distance, that is to

15 say, the distance one can hope to attain someone, but of the technical

16 range of a rifle. You spoke about the weapons that you received. You

17 spoke about this the day before yesterday. For each of these weapons, can

18 you tell us what the range, in general, was for a bullet? How far can a

19 bullet go if it doesn't encounter any obstacles?

20 MR. IERACE: I object, Mr. President. Basis of the objection is

21 whether -- is that a proper foundation has not been laid for the witness

22 to give such opinions.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness was

24 very precise with regard to the type of weapons. He gave their production

25 number, and he gave the calibre. And as this is a professional military

1 man, he knows what the range of a weapon is. As a professional, I can ask

2 him whether he knows about this, but I think that we can safely assume

3 that he is aware of this.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may proceed but ask in respect of each

5 weapon whether it is knowledge based on technical information or on own

6 experience.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Q. Witness, if you can answer the question I just put to you, can you

9 do so on the basis of your personal experience or on the basis of

10 theoretical knowledge? What can you tell us that is based on your own

11 personal experience?

12 A. Well, both on the basis of my personal experience and on the basis

13 of technical knowledge.

14 Q. Thank you. So as a result, could you briefly reply to that

15 question?

16 A. The final range of an M80 rifle, a 6.2-millimetre calibre, I can't

17 provide you with detailed information, but it's between 4 and 5.000

18 metres. A light machine-gun, M72, a 7.62 millimetre, uses more or less

19 the same kind of bullet. And then I mentioned a light machine-gun, M50 --

20 53, it uses a 7.9 millimetre bullet. Its range is more distant. It has a

21 greater range. It's between 6 and 7.000 metres. Then M84 machine-gun,

22 7.62 millimetre calibre, its powder charge is stronger. It has a greater

23 range, between 7 and 8.000 metres.

24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned M72 --

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You didn't give us the range of the M72. You didn't tell us about

4 its range. But you said it was the same type of weapon. Does it have the

5 same range as the other weapon you mentioned? What is the range of an

6 M72?

7 A. The range of an M72 light machine-gun is like the range of the

8 automatic rifle, since it uses the same type of ammunition. It's between

9 4 and 5.000 metres.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, when a bullet goes astray, I'm

11 talking about stray bullets now, and it hits someone, this is a purely

12 speculative question, but it is within the range, for example, 3.000

13 metres for a range of 4, 5.000 matters, what can the effect of this bullet

14 be on the person hit by this shot? And when I say "hit by this shot," I

15 don't mean to say that this person was aimed at.

16 A. Well, the person would be wounded.

17 Q. So on the basis of the wound, can the person be mortally wounded?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we, unless

21 you want to confer --

22 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can we provide

24 the document that I provided a minute ago -- that I provided the usher

25 with a minute ago.

1 Q. Witness, I would first of all like to ask you a series of

2 questions regarding April 1993. Do you know whether in April 1993 there

3 was fighting, there was fighting in the zone that you are familiar with?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in this fighting, was it also an artillery duel that was

6 involved?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, when, on your side -- when you opened fire on

9 your side, did you as a general rule open fire in the same directions?

10 Did you aim at the same zones, the zones that were mentioned to you not

11 long ago?

12 A. In the previous document?

13 Q. Yes, in the previous document. Exactly.

14 A. The places mentioned weren't in front of my zone, and we didn't

15 open fire in the direction of those places.

16 Q. All right. Were you able to open fire in the direction of

17 Sedrenik, technically speaking, in technical terms?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you ever do so?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Thank you. To go back to Sedrenik, Witness, do you know whether

22 the BH Army was deployed in the vicinity of the Sedrenik area? Do you

23 know whether it was also deployed there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, does the name of this woods mean anything to

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1 you, the name "Seven Woods" mean anything to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Witness, can you tell us which army was deployed there, if an army

4 was deployed there?

5 A. In the Seven Woods' area, parts of the BH Army was deployed in

6 that area.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know whether in the Seven

8 Woods' area, and I'm referring to your experience, your professional

9 experience, your personal experience, do you know whether the BH Army that

10 was deployed there used mortars?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the calibre of the mortars used by

13 the BH Army from the zone of the Seven Woods' area was?

14 A. Well, they used 82 millimetre mortar shells, mortars.

15 Q. Do you know whether other mortars were used in this zone or in

16 adjacent zones?

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: Sticking to the two-line rule, invitation to

20 speculate, "do you know" - leading. Primarily those two bases.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond

22 to that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's not a matter of

25 speculation, I'm asking and I was careful to say that it was on the basis

1 of your professional, personal experience, I asked the witness whether he

2 knew mortars had been used. That was my first question; it wasn't

3 leading. And second, I wanted to know whether he knew which mortars were

4 used. I don't think the questions I asked him were leading.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP20, you were asked about the use and the

6 calibre of mortars used by the other side in Seven Woods. You answered

7 that question. I take it that you indicated the type of mortars of which

8 you know they used at Seven Woods. Is that correct, the calibre? You're

9 nodding. The nodding is not visible on the transcript for the

10 interpreters.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge of mortars used in areas

13 adjacent to Seven Woods on the other side?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: How did you obtain that knowledge?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I obtained that knowledge from our

17 intelligence, and after the shelling had been done, when you observed the

18 craters, someone who was familiar with these things could recognise the

19 calibre used.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You say you could see on the basis of the craters

21 what calibre was used. How would you know where these mortars were fired

22 from?

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting. I don't

24 think your last statement reflects the evidence as translated into

25 English, which is "someone who was familiar with these things could

1 recognise the calibre used."

2 JUDGE ORIE: If I say "you could," I did not -- perhaps I should

3 have said, but that's perhaps my lack of precise knowledge of the English

4 language "one." It might have been one of my next questions, Mr. Ierace.

5 First of all, if you would see a crater, how would you know

6 exactly where it was fired from?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I knew which shell

8 caused the crater. I know that much about craters, and the direction more

9 or less, on the basis of the form of the crater, it is possible to

10 determine the direction from which the shell arrived.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And also the distance?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's a little more

13 difficult. Members of the artillery determine this from their observation

14 posts. This involves an entire procedure.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because I was asking you about adjacent

16 positions to Seven Woods, and I do understand that on the basis of the

17 crater you could identify the direction where they came from, but you

18 could not precisely establish the distance.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that precisely. It's

20 possible, but this is something that is done by a team which includes

21 observers and others.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so you could not establish as facts on the basis

23 of your own observations, just by yourself. Is that correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not on my own.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my second question is you said that - have

1 to be precise - one could see from a crater what calibre was used. How

2 can you see that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, quite simply, a big calibre

4 creates a big crater. And since I had seen craters before and I knew

5 which shells had been used, when you would make such comparisons, well it

6 was obviously possible to determine that a certain weapon had been used.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So you said just by the size of the crater, one can

8 establish what calibre is used.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the first

10 thing -- that's the simplest way. But usually there's a stabiliser in the

11 vicinity of the crater, and everything is written on the stabiliser.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you establish the calibre -- may I invite

13 you to look at me when I'm asking questions to you and not to anyone else

14 in this courtroom.

15 If you would have no tail-fin, could you then establish the

16 calibre?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Considering the experience and how

18 many such craters I have seen, yes, I would be able to.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be -- what would a 120-millimetre crater

20 look like on hard surface, approximate size? You may indicate with your

21 hands, for example, what the size of the crater would be.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Entire crater you see on a hard

23 surface, it's quite shallow. But the radius would be approximately,

24 together with the traces of the impact in the soil, would be about the

25 size of this -- the width of this table, this desk.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would the parties agree that it's approximately

2 1 metre and 20 centimetres? Approximately. It could be 130. If you

3 would like to measure it during the next break, that's fine.

4 You said the impact as such would be shallow. Could you give us a

5 further indication on...

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not quite clear. What do you

7 mean, more in detail?

8 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you say the crater you see is quite shallow, could

11 you give us a depth or...?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At its deepest point of the crater,

13 it's an oval, it would be perhaps some 5 centimetres deep, approximately

14 5. I think you can add or subtract 2 centimetres to that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the diameter?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean of the calibre?

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, the diameter of the hole on the hard surface.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we understand each other,

19 considering that the hole is quite small. What I mean is that with all

20 the other traces, all the traces that are visible, the actual hole is not

21 very big. Its diameter is perhaps 40 to 50 centimetres --

22 JUDGE ORIE: 40 to 50 centimetres.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The oval part of the hole.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now tell us how this would be for

25 82 millimetres? What would be the pattern of shrapnel, as I understand

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1 it, on the surface and what would be the crater itself?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Approximately -- it would be about

3 half the size of all the other sizes mentioned previously.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would it still depend on the charges used when

5 firing the -- would that make any difference, the charges used when firing

6 the projectile?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The charge for mortar shells, the

8 only difference is the range. So the stronger charge, the

9 higher -- longer range. But each mortar shell follows a natural fall, so

10 that actually the charge doesn't have any impact on the crater.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would the kind of detonator used have any

12 impact, whether it's a delayed fuse or -- and what would that impact be,

13 if any?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mortars that I know do not

15 have -- or we didn't use, nor did I notice the other side used these

16 delayed fuse. From literature and from experience, I know that fuses with

17 a delay, the effect is more intense because the shell becomes activated,

18 so from the depth, once it's impacted. It's not activated on impact, but

19 afterwards. That depends on the fuse.

20 JUDGE ORIE: What would be the effect on the crater you would see?

21 Have you ever seen such a crater?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw such a crater but not from a

23 mortar shell. But from other artillery weapons, and then it would be far

24 greater.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I thank the Chamber for saving

3 my resources. But I believe that the witness did not answer the question

4 that I asked, so I'm going to ask the following question.

5 Q. Witness, you said that by analysing the crater, by looking at it,

6 visually analysing, you would be able to establish the direction it came

7 from. Did I understand you correctly?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, was there, as far as you know, craters of

10 120-millimetres that you may have seen personally and whose direction,

11 that is, the direction that the projectiles came from, went close to the

12 area -- the direction it came from was close to the area known as Seven

13 Woods?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. You and your services during the war, were they able

16 to draw the conclusion from that at some point that the BH Army had the

17 use of 120-millimetre calibre weapons near the area of Seven Woods?

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think every question has been

20 leading for some time. Leading is the basis.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the testimony of this witness

22 is that you could see from the pattern, the direction where a shell came

23 from. If you are now asking not about a direction but about an area which

24 is direction and distance, you should first explore on what basis such a

25 determination or such an assessment could be made because until now, we

1 heard that the witness could establish directions, not distances.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 Q. Witness, what do you know, if you know, not about the direction,

5 but the location that these projectiles of 120-millimetres came from? Did

6 you know about that?

7 A. Yes, we did know, but I did not establish this but the experts,

8 artillery people who conducted observations. They had technical means to

9 observe and to monitor, so that's how they came to this information. So

10 they would use the topographic methods --

11 Q. I'm going to interrupt you now. I'm going to interrupt you. What

12 were the conclusions that you came to?

13 A. Mostly --

14 MR. IERACE: Objection.

15 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that you're asking the witness what

16 conclusions they came to first.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, this was "you" in plural.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation].

20 Q. What were the conclusions, Witness, that you arrived to?

21 A. Speaking generally, that was the method that was used, that I

22 mentioned. We approximately came to some positions, perhaps not quite

23 accurate, but the positions of the artillery positions --

24 MR. IERACE: I object.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

1 MR. IERACE: The same one as you anticipated I was about to make

2 previously. I take it this is acceptable hearsay in the eyes of Trial

3 Chamber. If that is the case, let's at least hear what the hearsay was

4 rather than the witness being invited to wed his opinion with that of the

5 experts.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it has already

7 been established. The witness said that it wasn't him but it was their

8 expert team that was able to establish it, that he was not an expert. I

9 believe this is already -- there's foundation here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the questions are now about what your expert's

11 findings were. Could you then please answer the question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said already, mostly this was

13 accurate. I cannot say it was accurate 100 per cent, but approximately we

14 were able to determine their firing positions - with a lot of

15 accuracy - of their mortars.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President, may

17 I proceed.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, therefore, as a consequence, according -- following the

21 results of the investigations, you were able or your specialists were able

22 to -- in your army were able to establish. Could you tell us where were

23 the 120-millimetre battery positions, if that is the case, in an area near

24 the area of Seven Woods in a northeast area, in the northeasterly

25 direction of Sarajevo?

1 MR. IERACE: Objection, leading.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Leading. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, leading is over now.

3 Move to your next subject and call the -- call those experts who could

4 give us full information if this -- and I take it it's an important point

5 for the Defence. So rather use your procedural rights in a proper way in

6 order to give the Chamber full information and the best information it

7 needs to make its determination. The Chamber is fully aware of the

8 importance; so therefore, make it possible for the Chamber to hear this

9 perhaps very important evidence in such a way that it can use it at its

10 best, that is, to establish the truth in the interest of both parties.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have to say

13 that I was upset by a number of the objections, by the length of the

14 interventions of your Chamber. And I apologise if I've asked a question

15 which is leading. However, it seems to me that it will be useful that on

16 the basis of this witness's knowledge, we would be able to find out what

17 were -- what was the knowledge that he knew about the source. So may I

18 please continue with this subject without asking leading questions.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the accused could keep his

21 voice down.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we're asking

23 for a few moments.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed. Everyone knows

25 what a yellow card means in football. You just saw a yellow card.

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1 Please proceed.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank

3 you.

4 Q. Witness, when I say "you," what I mean by that, you and your army.

5 Did you know anything about the -- where this fire, these shots, came

6 from? Did you know anything about it?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: The question is inadmissible for two reasons. "Did

9 you know" invites too wide a range of knowledge. Secondly, it invites the

10 witness to respond to what he knew on no specified basis as well as what

11 he understands anyone in his army knew.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, Mr. Ierace, sometimes you can tell the

13 Chamber, and that's of course hearsay, of what experts would tell you if

14 these were experts or other people nearby. I'll allow you,

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, to continue. One thing is not clear for me, at least,

16 is "those shots," I'm not quite sure what shots you're referring to. And

17 would you please, each question, try to find out on what basis the witness

18 who is, as we know, giving a lot of hearsay testimony, and that's always

19 inevitably not of the same quality as direct knowledge. But at least that

20 we know exactly what's the basis of his knowledge. Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Q. Witness, when I'm talking about these shots, what I mean is as I'm

23 referring to some of the craters that you were able to examine and that

24 you spoke to us about, and you spoke about the direction. In relation to

25 these shots and to these craters, what did you know, if you knew anything

1 at all, not just about the direction they came from but of the origin, the

2 source of these shots of this fire?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the witness has already said that on

4 his own observations he could not determine the origin --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we understand now the question to be about

6 not his -- but we'll find that out, Mr. Ierace. The Chamber is fully

7 aware at this moment of the, I would say, the character of the testimony

8 given by this witness, and that it's not only upon the basis of his own

9 observation and his own knowledge. And Mr. Piletta-Zanin will certainly

10 have these issues clarified.

11 MR. IERACE: As long as that's clearly understood, thank you,

12 Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask the question again. What did you know,

16 if you knew anything, about the origin of these shots? The you is the

17 "you" as used in French, not just you yourself but as you were able to

18 hear in your capacity as a military expert, a military person, with the

19 rank, experience of being there for several months?

20 A. I was able to know the direction, and later on through more

21 analysis we would be able to know the precise location of the firing

22 position where the shot had come from.

23 Q. Very well. You tell us about the exact location where the fire

24 came from during this analysis and regarding this precise location, could

25 you tell us what do you know about? What were these precise locations of

1 the origin of fire?

2 A. I know, and just like we now mentioned the Seven Woods' area, then

3 Sedrenik, then Babica Kuca, Babic houses, which is south from Hresa, then

4 Babic houses, then it would be the southern slopes of Hrastova Glava, then

5 that would be the area I know about.

6 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, can we now please move on to

7 another subject. And the subject is about orders, about instructions.

8 Witness, could you tell us whether as far as you know instructions were

9 given in your area for the men, for the troops, that would be in relation,

10 first, opening of fire, and second necessary protection of civilians?

11 What do you know about these orders or instructions?

12 A. Yes, we received orders. They were mostly verbal because we were

13 a battalion, and we didn't get written orders. We got oral orders about

14 opening fire in a controlled manner, so just responding to provocation.

15 And to defend ourselves. Furthermore, in some other irregular time

16 intervals, we had these orders repeated to us not to open fire on

17 civilians, on civilian facilities, that we were not sure whether they were

18 within the positions of the BH Army. Then, we received these orders in

19 irregular time intervals. It mostly happened after we received new

20 troops, fresh troops. And these new troops, new men, had to be warned

21 about such things.

22 Q. Witness, in relation to the weapons, can you tell us, if you know,

23 where did you get some of your weapons? Where did they come from? I'm

24 talking generally speaking, more than on a personal level.

25 A. Well, the Army of Republika Srpska got its weapons from the

1 warehouse of the former Territorial Defence generally speaking.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd now like to look at the relationship with

3 the UNPROFOR, but before that, can you tell us, did you know where did the

4 BH Army get their weapons from? Where did they find them, if you know

5 anything about that?

6 A. Well, more or less in the same way. The warehouses of the

7 Territorial Defence also existed in the places under the control of the BH

8 army, but I know that in Sarajevo, barracks that had been under a

9 blockade, Marsal Tito barracks, Jusuf Dzonlic barracks and so on. They

10 stayed there and a lot of weapons remained there in those barracks. So I

11 do know about the Marsal Tito barracks because that's where I finished my

12 schooling, my training, so I knew about the quantities that were left

13 there. And I was also aware of -- people who left Marsal Tito barracks,

14 so I know what was left. Also the artillery training centre from Zadar,

15 sometime in 1991 was actually located in the Marsal Tito barracks.

16 Q. Witness, did you ever hear about the use of gas, poison gas, by

17 the BH Army? When I say poison gas, I mean combat gas?

18 A. I did hear about it, but personally I haven't seen it, nor did I

19 hear about it from the people that I associated with.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, other questions

22 will be in relation to UNPROFOR, and some other subjects. I don't know

23 whether this is perhaps a good moment to allow me to have a hot drink.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time would the Defence

25 still need to conclude this examination-in-chief?

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think some 10

2 minutes or so, please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I take it that the Defence will finish in

4 10 minutes after the break. We'll adjourn until 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed, but I see that

8 Mr. -- Yes, of course, we first have to ask the usher to escort the

9 witness into the courtroom. But Mr. Ierace, you're on your feet.

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, at some stage, either now or

11 perhaps at the end of the examination-in-chief, might I take a few moments

12 to raise two issues. They are the extent of hearsay evidence; and

13 secondly, the sufficiency of 65 ter summaries in relation to this witness.

14 Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we do it at the end of the testimony

16 since...

17 Mr Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 Q. Witness, I would now like to turn to issues related to UNPROFOR.

20 Did you ever have any contact of any kind during the period you were

21 engaged in the military with UNPROFOR representatives?

22 A. I didn't have any personal contact with them.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, were you ever aware of protests

24 that were allegedly lodged with your battalion by UNPROFOR

25 representatives?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. Witness, this is a purely hypothetical question. Sir, please

3 imagine that this is something that happened. Let's imagine that

4 something that didn't conform to the military obligations, that didn't

5 conform to military obligations, something wrong, was committed by a

6 member of your battalion, one of the soldiers of your battalion. In such

7 case, what would have happened? What could you tell us about this? And

8 this is naturally just a hypothesis. It's pure speculation.

9 A. Well, the soldier, depending on what he had done, would

10 disciplinary proceedings would have been instituted against him.

11 Q. By whom, may I ask you that?

12 A. By the commander of his unit. Depending on the seriousness of the

13 offence, by the commander.

14 Q. Thank you. And if the offence was very serious, what would have

15 happened? And I'm raising the problem, the issue, of possible sanctions

16 that might be imposed by the authorities. What do you know about this

17 matter?

18 A. A court martial would be responsible for the matter.

19 Q. Did this institution exist at the time that you were involved in

20 the fighting, in the conflict?

21 A. Yes, it did.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know where it was located?

23 A. The one responsible for our area was located in Sokolac.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would now like to turn to a

25 different aspect of the issues we are interested in. And it concerns the

1 trenches. Did you see who dug the trenches on the other side?

2 A. Given the distance, I could see that drenches were being dug, but

3 I was not able to see exactly who was involved in digging them. But on

4 the basis of the intelligence that our men obtained, on the basis of the

5 intelligence that I had access to, we had information according to which

6 the Serbs who had remained in Sarajevo did this, in the part of the town

7 that was under the control of the BH Army.

8 Q. Thank you. You mentioned information. Where did this information

9 come from?

10 A. From the town, obtained through intelligence work.

11 Q. Very well. But do you know who could receive this information?

12 Were there any particular sources of information?

13 A. Well, the most specific source of information was from people who

14 were leaving the town, whether in exchange or because they were fleeing.

15 It occurred in various ways.

16 Q. Thank you very much. I'm now going to put another hypothetical

17 question to you. If these trenches had been dug by soldiers, if these

18 military trenches had been dug by soldiers, would you have been in a

19 position in judicial terms to open fire on these soldiers? Would you have

20 been in a position to open fire on these soldiers?

21 A. Well, yes. This is a military act, digging yourself in and

22 fortifying is a military act.

23 Q. Witness, I would now like to turn back to cultural facilities or

24 religious facilities. From your positions, were you able to see

25 cultural -- were you able to see religious buildings which were important,

1 for example, mosques?

2 A. It was possible to see them.

3 Q. Thank you. Did you see them yourselves?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Were these mosques destroyed? Was the

6 tower, the minaret, damaged, et cetera?

7 A. Not the ones that I saw, no.

8 Q. Thank you very much. In the part, in the area that you

9 controlled, were there any other -- from the part that you controlled,

10 were there other buildings that you could observe?

11 A. No. Since these were the suburbs, so it was a part of the town

12 that wasn't that populated.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would now like to go back to the

14 question of elevated sites in order to clarify things as much as possible.

15 Could you tell this Trial Chamber which elevation points were the

16 closest to your combat lines, the elevation points under the control of

17 the BH Army in Sarajevo?

18 A. Well, in front of me there was Hrastova Glavica or Hrastova Glava,

19 that's what it says in the map. Then there was the Borije feature.

20 Q. Any other points? Any other sites?

21 A. To the right, Grdonj, but that wasn't really in my sight any more.

22 Q. Thank you. In general, in general terms, what do you know about

23 elevated points that were held by the enemy artillery in the surroundings

24 of Sarajevo, in or around Sarajevo?

25 A. Could you perhaps be a little clearer?

1 Q. Yes. Do you know -- are you aware of the existence of any other

2 elevated points of strategic importance which were under the control of

3 the BH Army in the surroundings of Sarajevo or in Sarajevo itself?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you tell us which points. Could you tell us the names of

6 these points.

7 A. There was Zuc under the control of BH Army. Colina Kapa.

8 Debelo Brdo, and Mojmilo. And the Hum feature is the dominant one within

9 Sarajevo itself. These are the elevated points.

10 Q. Thank you very much. When you say Colina Kapa, wouldn't it be

11 exact to say that there were several Colina Kapas? Do you know anything

12 about this?

13 A. Yes, you have Velika and Mala Colina Kapa.

14 Q. Thank you very much. With regard to Mount Igman, what was the

15 situation?

16 A. Well, I can say that Igman was entirely under the control of the

17 BH Army.

18 Q. Witness, my last question: According to what you know, and I'm

19 referring to the destruction of property, of buildings, that you were able

20 to observe yourself, in general, during which period did this destruction

21 of property, of buildings, take place for the most part? So when did

22 the -- when were most of these buildings destroyed or damaged?

23 A. Well, it was in the course of 1992, and at the beginning of 1993.

24 That's when the most extensive damage was inflicted.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions,

1 Mr. President. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 Mr. Ierace, are you ready to start to cross-examine the witness?

4 MR. IERACE: Yes, I'm ready to start, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 You'll now be examined by counsel for the Prosecution, Mr. DP20.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace:

8 Q. Sir, you told us the other day that you were a sergeant during the

9 conflict. And as I understand it -- well, first of all, is that correct,

10 you were a sergeant throughout?

11 A. Yes, I was a sergeant first class.

12 Q. And that you were stationed on the part of the front line that

13 you've indicated, at least from September 1992 until August 1994. Is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How many battalions were there all together in the

17 Romanija Brigade?

18 A. About five battalions, but this changed at times. Because the

19 units were based on the territorial principle, and that zone would change.

20 But five.

21 Q. And I think you told us that the name of your commander was Milan

22 Plakalovic, is that correct? That is, the battalion commander.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was Vlado Lizdek the brigade commander between April 1993 and

25 sometime in 1995?

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1 A. He wasn't the battalion commander, but he was the brigade

2 commander.

3 Q. All right. Yes. I think I said brigade commander. And who was

4 his predecessor as brigade commander?

5 A. Dragoljub Milosevic [as interpreted].

6 Q. When did Dragomir Milosevic cease to be the brigade commander?

7 A. I don't know exactly. But around 1993.

8 Q. Where were the brigade headquarters?

9 A. The location changed. There were several locations.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's about the

12 transcript. I heard Dragomir and Dragoljub. I think it should be

13 clarified.

14 JUDGE ORIE: When you use the first name of Mr. Milosevic, did you

15 say Dragoljub or did you use another name?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragomir.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter would like to add, he said

18 Colonel Dragomir Milosevic.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE:

21 Q. Where were the brigade headquarters in September 1992?

22 A. They were in the Trebevic area.

23 Q. When did they cease to be in that area?

24 A. In the course of 1992, it moved to one part to Han Derventa and

25 part to Jahorina.

1 Q. Do you mean that the brigade headquarters then had two separate

2 locations at the same time?

3 A. The rear part was in Han Derventa, the logistics part, and the

4 command part was on Jahorina.

5 Q. You told us that you were a professional soldier at the time the

6 conflict broke out. What were your specialties by September 1992 in terms

7 of your training? What weaponry?

8 A. My military occupational specialty is the infantry, so all the

9 weapons that were in infantry in the JNA. I was familiar with this. And

10 now in the Army of Republika Srpska.

11 Q. Would you agree that a 60-millimetre mortar is an infantry weapon?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Had you met, before September 1992, General Galic?

14 A. No, I hadn't, not personally. We didn't meet.

15 Q. Did you meet your brigade commander Dragomir Milosevic when he was

16 brigade commander?

17 A. No, we didn't meet, since I was just the commander of a platoon.

18 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Exhibit D1789.

19 Q. You drew on this map the position of part of the confrontation

20 lines. Does that accurately depict the confrontation lines in September

21 1992?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were there any changes to those confrontation lines between

24 September 1992 and August of 1994?

25 A. No, there weren't.

1 Q. Would you please point to the part of the confrontation line that

2 was the responsibility of you and your platoon.

3 A. I was the commander of a manoeuvre platoon. If necessary, I was

4 engaged along the entire line.

5 Q. What were the responsibilities of your manoeuvre platoon

6 specifically?

7 A. To assist parts that were in danger.

8 Q. When did you first have contact with an investigator or lawyer of

9 the Defence team? In what month, in what year?

10 A. With investigator Ms. Prodanovic, I first had contact with her in

11 spring of this year.

12 Q. What month?

13 A. And later. I think it was in the month of March.

14 Q. At any stage did you hand over to Ms. Prodanovic or anyone else on

15 the Defence team any maps?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, concerning the

17 relevance. No, I'll withdraw that. I thought I heard something else.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. At any stage, did you hand over to Ms. Prodanovic or anyone else

21 on the Defence team any maps?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Who had responsibility -- I'll withdraw that. You told us you

24 were in charge of a manoeuvre platoon. How many companies permanently

25 were responsible for various sectors of the SRK front line that you have

1 drawn on this map?

2 A. Five companies.

3 Q. You've referred from time to time to the right flank, and I take

4 it that's as you stood in SRK territory looking southwest towards the city

5 of Sarajevo. Who was responsible for the right flank immediately beyond

6 where the front lines end on this map? Were they further companies of the

7 Romanija Brigade, or companies of a different brigade?

8 A. The Kosevo Brigade companies were responsible for this.

9 Q. Would you please repeat the name of that brigade.

10 A. The Kosevo Brigade.

11 Q. Was that sometimes known as the Kosevo Light Infantry Brigade?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Are you familiar with the position of the front line immediately

14 to your right flank?

15 A. Yes, partially.

16 Q. Please take a black pen and place a short dash across --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I think a blue one --

19 MR. IERACE: I'm sorry.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The marker --

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. A blue pen. And first of all, place a short dash across the SRK

23 front line at the end of that line as you've marked it on your right flank

24 so that we can understand when we look at the map where your battalion's

25 responsibilities ended and the Kosevo Light Infantry Brigade's

1 responsibilities commenced.

2 So first of all, place the dash across the front line.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Thank you. Now, continue the front line for as far as you are

5 familiar with it for the period September 1992 to August 1994.

6 A. [Marks]

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before these

8 type of questions, it would be good to ask the witness whether he had any

9 knowledge so that he can speak about this.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the question was asked and the question was

11 answered. He had to some extent knowledge of that, he told us.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Please continue, Witness.

15 A. I don't know any more. That's it.

16 Q. You told us you were familiar with it. Have you now forgotten?

17 Is that as far as you know?

18 A. I'm sorry. I didn't say I was familiar with the line. You asked

19 me whether I knew the line -- a part of the line alongside my line. I

20 knew this because this is where I went.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the position of the ABiH line immediately to

22 the right of the line of your responsibility?

23 A. I know as much as I have already marked in. Yesterday, when I was

24 marking, I think I went a little far. But mostly this is it.

25 Q. Please point to the section --

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Witness, may I again ask you to look to the

2 person who is questioning you, and not to other parties in this courtroom

3 as I observed several times.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Please point to the part of the front line that you marked the

7 other day that you now say perhaps you went a little far. Just point to

8 it.

9 A. No, I didn't say that I drew too long a line, but that when I was

10 drawing the line of the positions of the BH Army, that I went across. And

11 that's approximately this line which goes beyond my area of

12 responsibility.

13 Q. Please place a dash on the ABiH line to indicate where --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it

15 would be useful to show in the transcript, to describe in the transcript,

16 what the witness indicated on the map. It doesn't appear, like Mr. Ierace

17 says, that he's gone too far.

18 MR. IERACE: I was interrupted in the question of asking the

19 witness to mark that point on the map.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. Please mark that point on the map with a dash on the ABiH line.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Thank you. Now, just a few minutes ago, you were asked about high

25 points that were controlled by the ABiH. And one of them you said was

1 Hrastova Glava. And I think you have placed the ABiH line very closely to

2 that peak. Is that correct? Perhaps you could point to it.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Please point to it.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Now, please point to the peak itself as indicated on the map.

7 Just point to it.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. All right. I suggest to you that in fact the ABiH line was to the

10 west of that peak. And that peak was, effectively, no man's land. What

11 do you say to that?

12 A. I don't think that's correct. I think you have wrong information.

13 Q. You also mentioned the Borije feature. Could you please point to

14 that feature on the map.

15 A. This is not on the map, this feature. But I can point to it.

16 Approximately where I'm pointing, but the map is not very clear.

17 There should be a sharp rock that should be marked here. That would be

18 located about here.

19 Q. For the benefit of the transcript, you point immediately beneath

20 the E in the name "Sarajevo" in large type in the vicinity of the dotted

21 line indicating the ABiH forward position.

22 All right. Now, you also said that -- I think it was this

23 morning -- there were some positions in the area of Babica Kuca, Babica

24 houses. Would you please point to that on the map.

25 A. [Indicates]

1 Q. All right. Perhaps you could place a cross in that position, and

2 then alongside the cross in small print the letters "BK."

3 A. [Marks]

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps Madam Registrar could locate

5 P3727. They are the shelling maps.

6 Q. Now, you told us that you received certain information from your

7 artillery people in relation to that location. What was that information?

8 What were you told was at Babica Kuca?

9 A. That the position of the -- the firing position of the mortar unit

10 of the BH Army was there.

11 Q. Did you understand that according to your information, that there

12 were no permanent positions for ABiH mortars? Was that part of your

13 intelligence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So what was at Babica Kuca one day could be on the other side of

16 town the next. Isn't that the position?

17 A. No. No. On the other side of the town.

18 Q. Mortars, be they 60-millimetre, 82, or 120, are capable of fast

19 dismantling and movement, aren't they, if that is desired by the troops?

20 A. Yes, that's correct. But these were mortars that belonged to one

21 of their unit. I think they belonged to the 2nd Mountain Brigade, and

22 they moved within the area of responsibility of the 2nd Mountain Brigade.

23 Q. On your side, were there mortars in permanent positions?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mortars that did not move?

1 A. Well, for a long period of time, no. They were moved, but they

2 stayed longer at certain positions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, since one of the answers is not quite

4 clear to me, I'd like to ask for a clarification.

5 A question was put to you saying that "so what was at Babica Kuca

6 one day could be on the other side of the town the next. Isn't that the

7 position?" And then your answer was: "No, no." As I understood it, "on

8 the other side of the town." Do you say that it did not move to another

9 place or that it might move to another place but not at the other side of

10 the town? It's not clear to me what your answer is.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't move to the other side

12 of the town because as I know how it was. They moved within the area of

13 the 2nd Mountain Brigade. That is, their area of responsibility because

14 these were the weapons that belonged to that unit. But theoretically, it

15 is possible for them to move that far.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I understand, your answer is they did move, but

17 according to your knowledge, not to the other side of town.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

20 MR. IERACE:

21 Q. The mortars that on your side were left in the same position for

22 lengthy periods, did that apply to 60, 82, and 120-millimetre mortars?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Why was that? Why were they left in the same positions?

25 A. The mortars, 60-millimetre calibre, are located on the first line,

1 on the front line in the trenches themselves, the first line of the front.

2 And this line was not moved. That's why they stayed there.

3 The 82-millimetre calibre mortars and the 120-millimetre mortar,

4 too, they had good positions that were sheltered, and they were not at

5 risk by the fire of the opposing side artillery so they could stay there.

6 Q. You say that the 82 and 120-millimetre mortars were not at risk.

7 Why was that that they weren't at risk?

8 A. They were in good, steady shelters.

9 Q. Isn't it the case that the reason that mortars are moved after

10 they are fired, very quickly after they were fired, is to avoid return

11 fire? Isn't that correct?

12 A. Could be, but that's not the rule.

13 Q. But in the case of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, I suggest to you

14 that quite often there was no threat of return fire.

15 A. I claim that you are wrong.

16 Q. I suggest to you that there was a gross imbalance between the SRK

17 and the ABiH in relation to artillery and mortars. And by that I mean

18 that the SRK had far more pieces than the ABiH, to the extent they did not

19 need to fear return fire and was able to leave its mortars in permanent

20 positions. What do you say to that?

21 A. Sir, I don't think you're wrong -- I don't think you're right. I

22 think you have wrong information.

23 Q. What artillery pieces were there on that part of the confrontation

24 lines that you've told us about? What type of weapons? What guns?

25 A. On which side do you mean?

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1 Q. On your side.

2 A. In the rear of my positions, there was one artillery unit which

3 had 100-millimetre cannons. They were anti-tank cannons.

4 Q. Did you at any stage between September 1992 and August 1994 go to

5 the Lukavica headquarters of the SRK?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever travel to the southern front of the conflict, that

8 is, on the southern side of Sarajevo?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you travel to the end of the left flank of the

11 Romanija Brigade at any stage in that period?

12 A. Yes, but not in connection with carrying out military tasks.

13 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the ELMO could pan back in relation to the

14 exhibit which is presently on it. A bit further. Thank you.

15 Q. Sir, could you point to the furthest point of the confrontation

16 line which was the responsibility of the Romanija Brigade on the left

17 flank. What was the endpoint?

18 A. I can't point. I don't know about that. I don't know about the

19 battalion.

20 Q. I'm not asking you about the battalion. I'm asking you about the

21 end of responsibility on the left flank for your brigade, the brigade that

22 you were in throughout the conflict.

23 A. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the endpoint.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.

25 This is several times that this question is asked successively, although

1 the witness has answered.

2 MR. IERACE: I disagree with that, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just rereading the questions and the answers.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP20 -- first of all, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the

6 question in different forms has been put, or at least information is

7 sought from the witness. The Chamber cannot see that it's properly

8 answered several times.

9 You told us that you went to the western end of your brigade's

10 confrontation line, but it was not for duty reasons. So I take it it was

11 either for private reasons or anything else. Could you tell us where the

12 end of the brigade line may have been, where that was? Could you indicate

13 that on the map?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think there's a misunderstanding.

15 We didn't mention the western part. If I point to the -- this, I think

16 you mean this is western. Are we thinking of the same thing?

17 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution was asking about left and right. I

18 took it, but please correct me, Mr. Ierace, when I'm wrong, that if you're

19 talking about the left side of the line, that you are talking about the

20 left side as seen from the positions of the Serbian forces, and that would

21 mean just --

22 MR. IERACE: That's correct.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- Just the other part of the line, Mr. DP20. So

24 Mr. Ierace is asking you about the end of the line, I would say closer to

25 the word "Sarajevo" on the map. From your position facing the opposite

1 forces, the left-hand side of the line, where did it end?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. In that part, I

3 don't know exactly where the line ended. I went for private reasons up to

4 the place called Miljevci, because I have relatives there and I went to

5 visit them.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

7 MR. IERACE:

8 Q. The line as you have drawn it for your area of responsibility

9 extends a little distance between the name "Sarajevo" in large type. Were

10 you familiar with where the front line went from that point, further south

11 or southwest?

12 A. I was familiar with a small part which is directly linked to my

13 unit.

14 Q. You're taking out the pen. Don't mark it.

15 Please point to the end of the SRK front line, the left flank.

16 Please point to it.

17 A. I can't point to it.

18 Q. No, please point to the end of the line that you have marked on

19 the map.

20 A. It's a line of one battalion from the brigade of the

21 Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

22 Q. Yes, and is that the 3rd Battalion?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, do you know where the line went from that point? And please

25 keep the pointer on the map.

1 A. [Indicates]

2 Q. You indicate a distance of a few centimetres. Is that as far as

3 you knew?

4 A. What I know for sure. I'd rather not...

5 Q. So effectively, you have very little knowledge as to where the

6 front line went beyond the length that you operated on. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in terms of artillery, so far you've told us about one piece

9 that was operating in relation to that marked section of the front line.

10 Surely there was more than that.

11 A. I didn't understand the question. What did you mean by that?

12 Q. All right. Can you tell us again, firstly, how many pieces of

13 artillery there were, let's say, in December 1992 in the vicinity or

14 behind --

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] How does the witness know

18 that? The witness said that in terms of artillery, in relation to

19 artillery, he was in the infantry.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but he told us about...

21 The objection is denied. Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

22 MR. IERACE:

23 Q. A few moments ago when I asked you about -- I asked you what

24 artillery resources operated in relation to that part of the front line,

25 had you told us about an anti-tank gun. Do you recollect that, telling us

1 that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Were there times when you requested artillery

4 assistance?

5 A. I asked for artillery support from the commander of the battalion,

6 and they continued on.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wish to consult my

8 Defence team, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 MR. IERACE: Should the witness wait outside, Mr. President?

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask to put the microphone off. Yes.

13 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. Yes,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] General Galic has asked of me

18 to stress in relation to the objection that I made earlier, is that it

19 would be good to say with regard to the competence of the witness, that he

20 was not -- nothing more than a platoon commander, and that he couldn't

21 have had the technical capacity for this.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the objection has been raised.

23 The objection has been denied. There's no further discussion on that.

24 And I'll perhaps at a later stage discuss this way of operating in more

25 detail.

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1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

3 MR. IERACE:

4 Q. When you requested artillery support from your battalion, do you

5 know where that support came from? Where was the artillery that provided

6 it?

7 A. I do know precisely about the artillery from the battalion. These

8 were 120-millimetre mortars.

9 Q. Perhaps you include 120-millimetre mortars under the heading

10 "artillery." I'm more interested in guns, field guns, Howitzers, perhaps

11 even tanks; that type of artillery. Where did that come from when you

12 requested it?

13 A. From these positions that I told you about. Behind us, there were

14 positions of an artillery unit.

15 Q. Now, to be clear on this, when you say there were positions behind

16 you of artillery units, do you mean artillery other than mortars, not

17 mortars?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. All right. Did you sometimes --

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President -- I'll withdraw that.

21 Q. Did you sometimes see those artillery pieces between September

22 1992 and August 1994?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you see ammunition near them, shells stacked?

25 A. No.

1 Q. Were there corps artillery placed adjacent to, that is, behind the

2 front line that you operated on, artillery that came from the corps

3 command?

4 A. Not from the corps command. There was an independent artillery

5 unit which was subordinated to the corps.

6 Q. Yes. Would you please point to where that was in December 1992.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. Would you please take a pen, that's the blue pen, place a cross

9 indicating that position, and alongside write the letters "CA."

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Now, what was that artillery in that position in December 1992?

12 Field guns or what?

13 A. There were anti-armour cannons, 100-millimetre anti-tank guns.

14 Q. Was there near it an UNMO position, UNMO Lima, that is

15 United Nations Military Observers' position, in December 1992?

16 A. I know that there were observers, because they controlled that

17 artillery unit but I don't know what their exact location was.

18 Q. Did you see gentlemen in -- with blue helmets in that vicinity at

19 any stage, that position you just marked?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did you speak to any of them?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you understand that they were

24 United Nations Military Observers?

25 A. Yes, I did.

1 Q. Did you notice in that position shells stacked near the guns?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The other day, you marked on the map the position of the battalion

4 headquarters. Would you now please mark on the map the position of the

5 brigade headquarters as of December 1992.

6 A. In this part of the map that I have before me, I'm not able to do

7 so.

8 Q. We're talking about the headquarters of your brigade, the

9 Romanija Brigade.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Would you please place alongside that circle "BEH." Thank you.

12 Letters "BEH."

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. All right.

15 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness be shown P3727, in particular, map

16 5, and he continue to have in front of him the present exhibit. At the

17 moment, could we have on the ELMO the map that has just been obtained,

18 that is P3727. And could the map be lowered a little, draw the map down

19 so that we can see higher up the map. Thank you. Perhaps that's a little

20 too far. Perhaps the map could be moved up. Thank you. That's good.

21 Q. Now, I want you to take your time and look carefully at the

22 position of the dark green broken line on this map. I want you to look at

23 the names which appear on that map.

24 Sorry. Can you please tell us when you've done that.

25 A. I've had a look at it.

1 Q. All right. In relation to the area that you operated on, is it

2 correct? In other words, does the green line indicate the front line

3 between the two opposing forces, that part of it on which you operated?

4 A. More or less, yes.

5 Q. Please wait for a minute. I don't want to mislead you. The dark

6 green line indicates the forward position of the ABiH. And take your time

7 and tell us if you agree that in relation to the area you knew well, it is

8 accurate.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. So that's accurate, the part that you knew well, that

11 you operated on, in terms of forward positions of the ABiH. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. More or less. I can't see well on this map.

14 Q. All right.

15 Would you now look at the map that you marked, D1789, and compare

16 them.

17 A. There are slight differences. Hrastova Glavica.

18 Q. Please point to Hrastova Glavica on the map. Just keep your

19 pointer there while we adjust the ELMO so we can see where you're

20 pointing.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. All right. I think you now point to the name Hrastova Glavica

23 which appears on the map. You point to the name?

24 A. Yes, the position passed through the peak, the highest peak,

25 that's above Hrastova Glavica. There should be a number, a trig point

1 here.

2 Q. All right. I draw your attention more to the north point of the

3 front line that you are familiar with. In particular, do you see on this

4 map Barice.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Please leave the pointer, if you would for a minute, on that

7 position. Please leave it there until I ask you to move it. Thank you.

8 And I think that name actually appears on the map. Can you read it? Do

9 you see Barice where you are pointing?

10 A. Barice, yes.

11 Q. Now, to the right, do you see Odjak or Odzak, to the right of

12 pointer. And if so, would you now point at that.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. All right. With the assistance of Mr. Usher, perhaps we can now

15 have the other map, D1789, on the ELMO.

16 Would you please point to Barice on this map.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. And now, Odzak.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Thank you. All right.

21 MR. IERACE: Might, for the moment, D -- those two maps be

22 returned. I'll come back to --

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Sorry, I didn't follow you. Could you point

24 to that place again. Please point at that place again.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Barice.

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1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst Your Honours are looking at the

2 maps, to save time, I'd be grateful if Madam Registrar could prepare maps

3 8 and 3 of Exhibit P3728. That's the other set of maps.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Although we are looking on the maps, we are ready to

5 hear the next questions.

6 MR. IERACE: Thank you. All right. Please leave the map on the

7 ELMO for the moment. And could the ELMO pan back. And stop panning back

8 at that point. If the map could be moved so we can see -- withdraw that.

9 Could the map be moved slightly to the right. Slightly higher, higher.

10 The other direction. Stop. And could we now zoom in. Stop.

11 Q. Now, sir, would you firstly look at the map in front of you, and

12 as blown up on the screen. Do you see Grdonj? And if so, would you

13 please point to it.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. Now, would you please slowly move the pointer along

16 the ABiH front line that you have marked on that. The ABiH front line,

17 not the SRK front line.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Thank you. All right. And now we see that you have not marked

20 the ABiH line in relation to the longitude of Grdonj, but where you have

21 marked it, which is to the north-east, it is some distance north of

22 Grdonj, is that correct, that is, the ABiH front line? Do you agree with

23 that, the nearest part that you've marked?

24 A. I'm claiming that the line was where I marked it.

25 Q. Yes, I understand that. Now, firstly, would you look again at the

1 other map.

2 MR. IERACE: That's for the record P3727. And perhaps that could

3 be placed on the ELMO.

4 Q. On this map, would you please point to Grdonj.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, we have had the experience earlier that a

7 specific name several times on the same map quite close to each other.

8 MR. IERACE: All right. Mr. President. To overcome that problem,

9 might that map be removed and might the witness be shown P3728, number 3.

10 Perhaps I could have a look at it before it's shown to the

11 witness. Yes, thank you.

12 All right. Now, could the ELMO please pan back a little. And the

13 map be moved slightly to the right. Thank you. And could we have the

14 light on on the ELMO. Has the bulb blown? Thank you.

15 Q. Do you see firstly on this map Sedam Suma, which I think is Seven

16 Woods. That is, the name Sedam Suma. Do you see that?

17 A. [indicates].

18 MR. IERACE: Witness now points to that name.

19 Q. Do you see that there's a light-green line that passes through

20 Suma on that map.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 MR. IERACE: Witness now points to that. Thank you.

23 Q. I want you to understand that I'm suggesting to you that

24 light-green line shows the position of the ABiH forward positions or

25 forward line, front line. Do you understand what I'm putting to you?

1 A. I do understand that, but I don't agree that that's the line.

2 Q. All right. Okay. In relation to the other line, we see a

3 dark-green line, and then a blue line. Would you please point to the

4 dark-green broken line.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you. Would you now please point to the blue line,

7 hand-marked blue line.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to suggest to you that the -- I'll

10 withdraw. Do you see Grdonj indicated on this map immediately above and

11 partly through the dark-blue line?

12 A. [Indicates]

13 Q. Thank you. And indeed, Sedam Suma, as I understand it, is to the

14 south of Grdonj. Is that correct? I'm not asking you about the lines for

15 the moment, just whether Sedam Suma is to the south of Grdonj, the peak of

16 Grdonj.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. I suggest to you that as of mid-1993, indeed, at least

19 from April 1993 to August 1993, the blue line indicates the forward

20 position of the SRK in relation to Grdonj. If you don't know whether it

21 did, please say so. If you do know, do you agree or disagree?

22 A. I don't agree. The line should be further to the rear. It should

23 go in the direction of the north.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. The

1 Defence has, with regard to incident number 3, an entire set of maps, and

2 for incident number 3, the front line of both armies is completely

3 different. It also says "incident number 3." Perhaps I've made a

4 mistake, but I'm under the impression that it is the same incident, but

5 that the line has been drawn in a different manner. This is confusing me

6 and my colleague.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could I please have a look at...

9 Ms. Pilipovic, may I first ask you, the map we're using now is

10 admitted into evidence as far as I'm aware of you and you now confront us

11 with a map which bears no number, neither a P nor a D number, and which

12 is --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I said that I

14 apologise, but I have a complete set here. I took it from the complete

15 set of maps that I received. This is what's confusing me because I

16 thought that the maps were the same regardless of the fact that I'm aware

17 of the fact that this map has been tendered into evidence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps the -- the Prosecution is entitled to

19 put to the witness a map, and even if it differs from a map that exists

20 somewhere else, but that it could create confusion is quite clear.

21 Perhaps the parties could, not in the presence of the witness, see whether

22 they can explain to each other what one map is and what the purpose of

23 using this map perhaps rather than another map is. And I'll return this

24 now to you, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

2 I think the last answer of the witness was that the line indicated

3 on the map you showed him, Mr. Ierace, was not the right one. It should

4 be more in the rear, more to the north as far as I understood.

5 MR. IERACE: That's what the witness said.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes.

8 Q. All right. Now, what we're talking about in this area is

9 Spicasta Stijena. Is that correct?

10 A. It's not here.

11 Q. The area immediately to the right of Grdonj where we see a grown

12 line and a red arrow, I'm sorry, a green line and a red circle is known as

13 Spicasta Stijena, isn't it? Sharpstone?

14 A. Yes, that feature does exist. It is there, but this map is not

15 very detailed, so I couldn't say that it is at this exact point.

16 Q. All right. Grdonj, the highest point, is the southernmost end of

17 an escarpment. As one looks at the map to the right, the escarpment

18 extends to the northeast. Correct?

19 A. Should I explain to you what this feature looks like in nature?

20 On the basis of this, I can't see it now. I don't know how the rock or

21 feature has been marked.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Recognising features on the

23 map. Leave the map to one side. If you could look at me.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace. I'm also looking at the clock, if

25 you would find a suitable moment for a break.

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1 MR. IERACE: This may be an appropriate moment, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed. If there's any issue

6 outstanding on the basis of your discussions during the break, we would

7 like to hear it. But then of course we would like to hear whether it's a

8 disclosure issue or what type of issue it is, because until now as far as

9 my recollection goes, I have never seen that before. But I might be

10 mistaken. But the map Ms. Pilipovic just showed, it's without a number;

11 it's not my recollection that we ever admitted into evidence or that it

12 was ever tendered into evidence. Up until now, it's not a problem which

13 the Chamber should occupy itself, I take it. If that would be different,

14 then we'll hear from the parties. Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I have a map to be shown to the

16 witness. Perhaps I could provide a copy to Madam Registrar. And the

17 number will be P3755. I have a number of copies.

18 Mr. President, I could indicate where that map has come from, or

19 perhaps I should do it in the absence of the witness at a later point.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Is this a map we have seen before, Mr. Ierace?

21 MR. IERACE: No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If not, then perhaps you'll explain it in the absence

23 of the witness.

24 Mr. DP20, may I ask you to leave the courtroom just for a while.

25 You'll be escorted by the usher.

1 Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this is a section of a map that we

3 have received from the Defence. The map is titled in Cyrillic "working

4 map of headquarters," and it's dated the 1st of July, 1994. It was given

5 to us in sections. And it was given to us on the 10th of September, 2002.

6 I don't know that we have all the sections, but we have at least this

7 section. And I intend to show it to the witness. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Before the witness comes in,

13 could we please have several -- there are several sections of the map, so

14 could we please have on the first page an indication of the map so that we

15 know what this is about, because there are several sections, several

16 elements. Could we please be given this initial reference so that we know

17 who has made this map, why and how, et cetera.

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if it assists, I have the two A4

19 sections which have them on the title of the map. And I think -- yes, the

20 date as well.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you have a copy, to give it to the Defence.

22 Mr. Ierace, have these sections been used before? It's not clear

23 in my recollection.

24 MR. IERACE: Not that I remember, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So they are new for us.

1 MR. IERACE: They may have been, but I don't remember it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please give that to the Defence.

3 MR. IERACE: And just in the absence of the witness, if it assists

4 in general understanding, the map that's presently on the ELMO was marked

5 by General Karavelic. He placed the blue line.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness into the courtroom

8 again.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your patience, Mr. DP20. Mr. Ierace,

10 please proceed.

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown the map

12 which is P3755, and might be it be placed on the ELMO.

13 Q. Sir, please look at that map, and if you can --

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the one. That one, yes.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. If you can find it, please point to Grdonj as it appears on the

17 map.

18 MR. IERACE: Could the map be moved slightly to the left. Thank

19 you.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the name "Grdonj."

22 Q. Would you now please point to Barice.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Thank you. And Odzak.

25 A. [Indicates]

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MR. IERACE: Witness points to -- excuse me.

3 Q. And also would you now please point to Sedrenik as it appears on

4 the map.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. IERACE: Witness has now pointed to those four places as the

8 names are indicated on the map.

9 Q. I want you to assume that the thick dotted line, or line

10 consisting of dashes, indicates the forward positions of the

11 Sarajevo Romanija Corps. And the thinner broken line underneath indicates

12 the forward positions of the ABiH. And I want you to assume that these

13 positions are as of the 1st of July, 1994. Do you understand what I have

14 just said?

15 A. Not quite.

16 Q. I want you to assume that the two lines indicate the forward

17 positions of the opposing armies as of the 1st of July, 1994. Do you

18 understand that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, I want to point out some differences between these forward

21 positions and those that you marked on the map the other day, which for

22 the transcript is D1789. I think you still have the map that you marked

23 on the table in front of you. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You marked the forward positions of the SRK, basically passing

1 through Barice and Odzak, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On this map, we see that the forward positions of the SRK were a

4 considerable distance to the south of those two towns, don't we?

5 A. No, these are not towns. These are small villages. And

6 considering the difference in the scale of these two maps, I think that's

7 right. I can't say it's a hundred per cent correct, but I think that they

8 are in accordance with each other.

9 Q. I suggest to you that in relation to the villages of Barice and

10 Odzak, they are clearly in conflict with each other.

11 A. No, I don't think you're right.

12 Q. Sir, would you please place on the ELMO with the assistance of the

13 usher map D1789.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so that we can

15 understand things in a better way, could Mr. Ierace indicate the scale of

16 the map that he has just produced.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, is that a copy of the map as you

19 received it, or have you --

20 MR. IERACE: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- enlarged it or it's the scale in which the Defence

22 provided it to you.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any indication of the scale? If it's

25 enlarged, it doesn't help very much, unless there is a -- apart from

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1 numbers, if there is also a scale indicated on the map itself.

2 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it would take some time for us to

3 check if there is a scale indicated, but my fundamental response is that

4 we don't need that because we can see the relevant towns.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, but if the parties could give

6 some clarifications as to the scale at a later stage. Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

9 [Defence counsel and the accused confer]

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Before you say anything, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I'd like

12 to hear from you what the Defence has to tell us. There should be no

13 indications in whatever way of what is the view of the General and what is

14 the view of Defence counsel. I wanted to leave this for a later moment,

15 but you are not supposed to indicate whose views you're expressing. It's

16 the Defence.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I must correct something I've just

18 said. I have just been informed that the map has been slightly enlarged

19 from the original image.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

21 MR. IERACE: And that the scale is approximately 1 square, that

22 is, the side of one square, equals 1 kilometre.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it's exactly

1 what I wanted to say before I was being told off about respecting the

2 rules. I believe the first rule is when the maps are enlarged, and asking

3 leading questions of a witness, it would be good to tell the opposing side

4 of that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Now, would you point again Barice on the map that you marked.

8 MR. IERACE: Perhaps the ELMO could be enlarged.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Stop there, please.

11 Q. All right. Sir, you have the SRK front line passing alongside,

12 first of all, the name "Barice" on the map immediately underneath it,

13 don't you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, is the village indicated by a series of dots to the right and

16 slightly below that name on the map?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did the SRK line pass on the southern boundary of the village?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, indeed, when you marked the front line, you seem to have

21 followed a black line, a straight line, that was already on the map. Is

22 that correct?

23 A. Partly, yes. That was a line indicating a long-distance power

24 line, but not all the time.

25 Q. At the point that the power lines passed immediately south of the

1 village of Barice, according to your markings, that was the forward

2 position of the SRK. Correct or not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, please point again to Odzak.

5 A. [Indicates]

6 Q. Again, the line passes immediately to the south of dots indicating

7 the village of Odzak. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The line on the other map, 3755, and perhaps you can place that

10 back on the ELMO, is different in that it is significantly further south

11 of those two villages, isn't it?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I object, Mr. President. As

13 long as the scale and the enlargement are not known, I don't think we can

14 conclude anything whatsoever.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, if you perhaps leave out the word

16 "considerably" because that --

17 MR. IERACE: Yes, I'll withdraw the question.

18 Q. Now, please run the pointer along the power line as indicated on

19 this map where it traverses the southern edge of the village of Barice.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. And continue to trace that line to the right as it passes

22 alongside the southern area of the village of Odzak.

23 A. [Indicates]

24 Q. Thank you. Now, when you drew that line, you started off to the

25 right, and moved your pen to the left on the other map. And as you

1 approached Odzak and Barice, the front line rose to the left. On this

2 map, as we move along the indicated front line, it drops as you move to

3 the left. In other words, the front line dips to the south. Do you agree

4 with that?

5 A. I don't know which map do you mean. The first or the second? What

6 I've marked or what's on the other map marked.

7 Q. The map which is on the ELMO at the moment, which for the

8 transcript is 3755. Do you see if you start at the right edge of that map

9 the power line goes up to the left and the front lines dip down to the

10 left, that is, they dip south. Do you see that?

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Yes. You now indicate the front line moving south as the pointer

13 moves from the left to the right. That is a significant difference, sir,

14 isn't it, in your recollection of the front line and the front line as it

15 appears on this map in front of you now?

16 A. I have to compare.

17 I think this, this feature, Pasina Brdo, I used this as a

18 reference point, and this was under the control of the BH Army.

19 Q. Sir, you told us what you used as a reference were the power

20 lines, didn't you?

21 A. I said that this is where the power lines go because I know the

22 area very well. And this line represents the power line which was in

23 existence then. It doesn't exist today.

24 Q. Sir, I'm asking you a very simple question. Do you agree that

25 there is a significant difference in the front-line positions as you

1 marked them on the one hand, and as they appear on the map in front of you

2 now, 3755, on the other hand in the area between Sedrenik and Barice and

3 Odzak? Do you agree or do you disagree?

4 A. I disagree because of the scale of the map, I can see that these

5 are insignificant differences.

6 Q. I see. Now, I'd like to point out to you another difference, I

7 suggest, between these two maps. Look first at the map that you marked,

8 and do you see how as we move from the right to the left the distance

9 between the two front lines becomes greater in the vicinity of Odzak, as

10 you move from left to right past Amerovice [phoen]. To the left, we see a

11 bulge in the gap, between the two front lines. Do you see that? Do you

12 agree or disagree?

13 A. I don't understand the question. What do you want me to do?

14 Q. Do you see a town or village in the area between the two front

15 lines called H-L-A-D-I-V-O-D-E.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. All right. You now point to that town. And the way you have it,

18 that's in no man's land. That's between the front lines. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. At that point, the distance between the front lines is

22 far greater than it is where the name in large type "Sarajevo" appears.

23 Do you agree? Please point to Sarajevo.

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. As we follow with our eye the front lines travelling

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1 north and to the left, the distance between them becomes greater as you

2 have marked them on this map. Do you agree or do you disagree?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You agree, all right. Now, please look at the other map. 3755.

5 MR. IERACE: If the ELMO could be zoomed back.

6 Q. In the same area, do you agree that the distance between the front

7 lines remains approximately constant?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, on this map, would you again point to Grdonj.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. IERACE: With the assistance of Mr. Usher, perhaps we could

12 zoom in on Grdonj.

13 Could we now zoom in, and the map has to be raised up. Thank you.

14 If we can keep going as far as we can. Map could be raised up. Stop

15 there, please. Thank you. Back a little so we can focus. Thank you.

16 Q. Now, do you see on this map what appear to be the letters "CP"

17 above Grdonj? You might see it more clearly on your screen.

18 A. No, I can't see any letters.

19 Q. All right, do you see a "P" at least?

20 A. No, no. I don't.

21 Q. That's all right. Do you see --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. IERACE: I'm sorry.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we wanted to be

1 able to follow, and I have to admit that these Cs and Ps are confusing us.

2 I don't really know what the Prosecution is talking about. If they could

3 be clearer, it would be good for everyone.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, where you asked the witness to

5 recognise a C and a P, I had some difficulties both on my screen and on

6 the map to find anything like that. So the witness might have the same

7 problem.

8 MR. IERACE: Indeed, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is it handwriting or is it --

10 MR. IERACE: I don't know, because this is the way it has come

11 into our possession, and I'm not sure it does say CP, and that's why I

12 used the words "what appears to be CP." And I accept what the witness

13 says.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

15 MR. IERACE:

16 Q. Would you please place your pointer on the portion of the map that

17 we see in the screen, in particular on the southernmost part of the road

18 on which we see Grdonj.

19 Would you place your pointer on the map so that we can see your

20 pointer on the screen.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. Thank you. Would you place it on the road above Grdonj, the end

23 of the road above Grdonj?

24 A. [Indicates]

25 Q. Thank you. Would you please keep the pointer still on the end of

1 the other road, the road above Grdonj, not to the left of Grdonj.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace is asking you to put your pointer a bit

3 more to the right, a bit more up. A bit more to the right. That road on

4 the end of the --

5 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. All right, please leave your pointer there. Now, have you ever

8 travelled on that road, ever?

9 A. Yes, after the Dayton agreement.

10 Q. All right. I take it you did not travel on that road before the

11 war?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And when you went there after the Dayton agreement, to the right

14 of the road -- withdraw that. Did you leave the road and walk around the

15 area at the end?

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. The witness said

17 that he used this road after the Dayton agreement, and this concerns the

18 chronology, then.

19 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... Whether he

20 visited that area after the Dayton agreement and whether he went around

21 there. Is that understanding correct? Yes. So the objection is based on

22 a misunderstanding of the question.

23 The question was, Mr. DP20, whether you left the road and walked

24 around when you visited that road after the Dayton agreement.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I only drove down it.

1 MR. IERACE:

2 Q. Why did you drive down it?

3 A. I was going to Mrkovici, because it was necessary.

4 Q. I'm sorry, where were you going, to where?

5 A. Mrkovici.

6 Q. Sir, that's a dead-end road, isn't it?

7 A. I don't think so.

8 Q. You see on the map it appears to be a dead-end road, that is, the

9 section which extends in a southwesterly direction towards the name

10 Grdonj.

11 A. I am telling you that there is a road here, but I don't know when

12 this map was made, in which year.

13 Q. Perhaps the map could be moved -- kept still. Thank you.

14 Now, you said you were going to Mrkovici. Where were you coming

15 from on this occasion after the Dayton Peace Agreement?

16 A. From Sarajevo.

17 Q. All right. And when you say you were travelling --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection

19 concerning the relevance of the questions. The relevance of the question

20 with regard to the events we are interested in.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The objection is denied. Questions could have

22 some relevance.

23 Please proceed.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Now, when you travelled up to Mrkovici, did you take the road that

1 we see on the screen that goes to the left, runs north/south, and goes to

2 the left of the name Barice?

3 A. More or less. That's the road. It goes by the Grdonj peak. It

4 goes by it, and then continues on towards Mrkovici.

5 Q. Now, the part that goes by the Grdonj peak, as you gave that

6 answer, you were indicating coming from the left of Grdonj. Were you

7 travelling on a road which does not appear on this map as you approached

8 the area of Grdonj?

9 A. I don't think that exact road is marked on the map because I know

10 that this is a fairly recent road.

11 Q. All right. And is it a dirt road, the section which does not

12 appear on the map?

13 A. Macadam road.

14 Q. Now to the right of Grdonj, just above Sedrenik, can you see a

15 road that if you follow with the eye would lead you to the same

16 intersection with Grdonj. Would you please point to the road above

17 Sedrenik, immediately above Sedrenik.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Now, do you see that on the map that road snakes at radical angles

20 backwards and forwards? Do you see that?

21 A. I don't quite understand what you want me to see.

22 Q. I'm asking you whether you agree that the road as it appears on

23 the map between Sedrenik and Grdonj snakes to the left and to the right,

24 turns sharply to the left and to the right immediately above Sedrenik.

25 Bring your pointer back down to the area of road immediately above

1 Sedrenik. Thank you.

2 Do you see the road move sharply to the left and to the right. Do

3 you agree with that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. It does that because there is a steep slope at that point, doesn't

6 it, as you come from Sedrenik driving away from Sedrenik, you are rising

7 sharply, are you not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And from Sedrenik, where the name appears, if you looked to the

10 northwest, you would be looking at an escarpment, wouldn't you, a

11 ridgeline?

12 No, not the northeast, the northwest. Perhaps you could place

13 your pointer to the northwest of Sedrenik.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. Thank you. You're now indicating to the northwest. Now further

16 up the road towards Grdonj. Stop there. Thank you.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Please keep your pointer still. I suggest that exactly where you

19 have your pointer, there is an escarpment, a ridge. What do you say to

20 that, yes or no?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Now, I suggest to you that the -- along the edge of

23 the top of the escarpment were SRK trenches. What do you say to that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the ABiH territory went as far as the bottom of the

1 escarpment. What do you say to that?

2 A. More to the rear, not on the escarpment itself.

3 Q. No, below the escarpment. The ABiH at the bottom; the SRK at the

4 top. Do you agree or disagree?

5 A. Yes, the claim concerning our line is correct. But the ABiH

6 positions were more in the direction of Sedrenik, so not on the escarpment

7 itself.

8 Q. Okay. I'm not saying they were on the escarpment, I'm saying they

9 were at the bottom, but we'll leave there.

10 Now, if you imagine standing around Sedrenik and looking to the

11 northwest, if you followed the escarpment along to the left, then

12 eventually you would find yourself looking at the end of the ridge where

13 Grdonj was. Do you agree or do you disagree?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. Now before we leave this map, let's see if we can

16 agree on this: According to the map in front of you now, 3755, the

17 forward positions of the SRK ended somewhere south of the end of the

18 marked road. Do you agree with that, according to this map?

19 A. I'd like to repeat that again. This is like the previous image,

20 the positions were a little to the north. A little further north.

21 Q. Listen to the question. Do you agree that according to this map,

22 SRK positions were somewhere to the south, not too far, but somewhere to

23 the south of the end of the road which we see above Grdonj, in particular,

24 above the "J" on Grdonj. We see the line between the top of the J and the

25 end of that road. Perhaps you can point to it.

1 Please point to it.

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Thank you. All right. Now go back to the other map, the map you

4 marked. Now, with the assistance of Mr. Usher, can we have a close-up of

5 the same portion of this map, that is, the end of the road. So we have to

6 move the map to the left and upwards. Sorry, the other way. Higher.

7 Perhaps, if we pan back first. And if you could move the map in

8 the other direction, that is, to the right, not to the left. Other

9 direction. Further, further. Stop. A bit further to the right. I'm

10 sorry, the other way. Yes. Up, so that we can see. Thank you. If we

11 could zoom in. Move it a bit further so that we can see further down.

12 Thank you. Stop there. That will do.

13 Now, will you please point to the end of the road as it appears on

14 this map. Please point to the end of the road. Thank you.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Now, do you see that a short distance south of the end of the road

17 we see the symbol for trig station and the altitude reading 906. Do you

18 see that? I don't know whether trig station translates.

19 Do you see a peak indicated with the numbers 906?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I have to admit that I do not know what a

23 trig station is. It seems to be a technical term. Could you explain what

24 that is for me.

25 MR. IERACE: The easiest way would be to avoid it. It's a high

1 point. It's a map reference point.

2 Q. Now, does that accord with your knowledge that just south of that

3 road is the highest point, and perhaps we can accept from the map that

4 that altitude is 906 metres. Do you agree with what I've just said?

5 A. Do you mean this narrow area?

6 Q. Listen to the question carefully. First of all, place your

7 pointer on the end of the road.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Thank you. Now, just south of the end of the road, do you see the

10 number, and slightly to the right, under beneath your pointer, do you see

11 the numbers "906"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The high point of that area was immediately south of the end of

14 that road and had that altitude. Do you agree or disagree?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. According to the other map, the forward position of the SRK was

17 somewhere south of the end of the road near your pointer, that is, the end

18 of the road that we can see near your pointer. That's correct, isn't it,

19 according to the other map?

20 A. I apologise, but it's difficult for me to compare these two maps

21 and to accept to compare them because there are quite a lot of

22 differences. As far as the scale is concerned, the scale is larger here.

23 And the small scale that's used for the other map.

24 Q. Listen, please, carefully to the question. On this map, we see

25 the same road, don't we?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. And leaving aside the question of scale, the SRK

3 position, according to the other map, was somewhere south of the end of

4 the road you just pointed to, wasn't it?

5 A. According to this map, yes. But --

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. IERACE: May the witness be shown --

8 Q. I'm sorry, you wanted to say something.

9 A. I said that according to this map, yes. But in my opinion, there

10 are certain differences here.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. With regard to the actual situation.

13 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Exhibit P3728, number 3

14 again, please.

15 Mr. President, I only have a question or two to go on this issue.

16 And if we could pan back and zoom in on Grdonj as it appears on

17 this map. If Mr. Usher could manoeuvre the map -- thank you, that will

18 do.

19 Q. Again, do you see the numbers 906 on this map?

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. Thank you. And do you see a symbol -- withdraw that. And

22 according to this map, the front line of the SRK -- withdraw that.

23 Do you see what you would accept to be a symbol indicating that

24 high point? Yes or no. If you don't, please say so.

25 A. Not on this map.

1 Q. All right. Do you see a dotted line above Grdonj and slightly to

2 the right in a yellowish colour? Perhaps you could point to it. Further

3 up, a broken line, perhaps indicating a road. Further up and to the

4 right. Higher and to the right. Please move your pointer higher and to

5 the right. Thank you.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Now, let's assume for the moment that that line indicates the same

8 road that we saw earlier. Do you agree with me that the position of the

9 SRK front lines, according to this map, is consistent at this point with

10 map 3755; that is, the small map that you saw a few moments ago? The

11 positions are about the same, aren't they?

12 A. But, sir, the first time I had a look at this map, I said that I

13 didn't agree with this line, that it had to go further to the north.

14 Q. I'm not asking you for your opinion as to where the line should

15 be; I'm only asking you whether you agree that the markings on the map are

16 consistent as to the forward positions of the SRK. Do you agree or

17 disagree?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You disagree. All right. And perhaps one more question,

20 Mr. President, or one more issue.

21 Now we see on the screen the red circle. Do you remember I

22 suggested to you earlier that that red circle was on the escarpment? Do

23 you now agree that indeed that indicates a position approximately that was

24 on top of the escarpment where you told us earlier there were SRK

25 trenches?

1 A. More or less, yes.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. But I think it should be a little more to the north.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, is that a convenient time?

6 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need, Mr. Ierace?

7 MR. IERACE: Perhaps I could review it overnight, Mr. President.

8 There were some issues, and other issues which came up unexpectedly.

9 Could I indicate a more reliable time, a reliable time, tomorrow morning.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that does not mean that the Chamber will follow

11 your indication, but of course if you could perhaps in the absence of the

12 witness tell us tomorrow what issues you'd like to deal with.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, in the absence of the witness,

14 could I just have a minute to record something.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. DP20, we'll adjourn for today. We'll

16 continue tomorrow morning, 9.00. I hope it will not take too much time

17 tomorrow. I'll ask Mr. Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

18 I'll ask for the patience of the interpreters. Mr. Ierace

19 promised us it would take one minute.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 MR. IERACE: In relation to the commission of experts’ two

22 documents, yesterday and today, the Defence was asked what was the

23 relevance. Today on page 7, line 19, Mr. Piletta-Zanin said:

24 "Mr. President, just to specify, the 24th is a very special day for a

25 specific incident when other witnesses said there was no combat." That

1 was a very revealing comment because it meant when one looks at the

2 scheduled sniping incidents that the two documents in fact relate to two

3 scheduled sniping incidents. No mention was made in the 65 ter summaries

4 of this witness saying anything at all about any scheduled sniping

5 incidents, nor was anything said about him referring to any scheduled

6 shelling incidents. And again this witness was asked about the

7 characteristics of 120-millimetre mortars which are clearly relevant to

8 incident 5.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I've already told the Defence that it should have

10 been in the summary, or it should have been updated.

11 MR. IERACE: Yes, the last one.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The last one.

13 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Defence want to respond, also in one minute?

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes. We'll

16 respond willingly. The Defence has already had the occasion to say what

17 is important, that's the truth. And we have noticed that sometimes the

18 truth comes out unpredictably. But that's not a reason not to reveal it.

19 When we spoke about weapons with this witness, and this was the case with

20 the previous witness, we were concerned with the same thing, the type, et

21 cetera. In the case of this witness, we didn't specify this because the

22 hearing was in progress and we didn't think it was useful to reproach him

23 for what he said about the 120 millimetres and the craters, I don't think

24 this has a basis. But for the other witnesses, we will now provide far

25 more detail about what other military witnesses are going to say. I have

1 already said that all these witness can testify with regard to craters.

2 Thank you.

3 And when I say craters, I mean big and small craters, et cetera.

4 All these military witnesses will be able to be called to testify about

5 craters, and specifically about 120-millimetre craters.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will consider the matter. It is

7 important, as I told before to the Defence, that in respect of the

8 fairness of the trial, that the other party should be able to identify

9 specific issues. If you indicate, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that all the

10 witnesses will tell us about 120-millimetre craters, then of course

11 another aspect arises whether we have to expect repetitious evidence. But

12 we'll have to consider it -- we'll listen to you, and you know exactly

13 what the Chamber expects the Defence to do in respect of informing the

14 Prosecution.

15 We'll adjourn -- one moment, please.

16 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

18 at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

19 the 14th day of November, 2002,

20 at 9.00 a.m.

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