1 Tuesday, 19 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness? That would be --

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness DP14 as far as I understand?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

15 MR. IERACE: Good afternoon, Mr. President. I apologise that I

16 can't see His Honour Judge Nieto-Navia. Just two matters. I think we

17 still have the exhibits from the last witness to be tendered and secondly

18 we have a technical problem on the Prosecution side. Because we have

19 changed courtrooms we don't have on this system the LiveNote for previous

20 days. That is compounded by the fact that we don't have an email

21 connection at the moment, so we can't request others from the courtroom to

22 make enquiries during the next witness's evidence.

23 Mr. President, I propose that we will live with that until such

24 time as it becomes a problem for us. And if it is acceptable to you at

25 that stage, I'll let you know.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have this same problem, Mr. Ierace. We only

2 have a limited number of days on the LiveNote available to the court as

3 well. If there would be any problem in respect of LiveNote or the

4 transcript of one of the previous days, please inform me and we can see

5 what we can do during the break, since some of us might have other

6 LiveNote transcripts somewhere else in this building.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes. At least if we can obtain the email connection,

8 that should overcome our problems. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether an email connection could

10 be established from here. Could we ask from the technicians...

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed, Mr. Ierace, that in approximately 30

13 minutes you might have an email connection from the courtroom. Then,

14 Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through the documents still not

15 admitted.

16 THE REGISTRAR: D1790, black and white copy of P3728, map marked

17 by witness; D1788, under seal, pseudonym sheet; D1789, map marked by

18 witness; D1724, daily sit-rep; D1713, daily sit-rep; P3755, black and

19 white copy of map; and C2, the large map.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These documents are admitted into evidence.

21 The pseudonym sheet under seal. If you are ready to call your next

22 witness, then we first -- when the witness enters the courtroom, we will

23 have to ask the usher to put the curtains down and as soon as the witness

24 has taken his position, then they can be removed again.

25 Mr. Usher, could you please. Yes. One moment, please, Mr. Usher.

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please -- Mr. Witness, I'll

4 not call you by your own name. I will call you Mr. DP14, since protective

5 measures are in force in respect of you, that is, face alteration and

6 pseudonym. Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure

7 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak

8 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The usher will now

9 hand out the text of this declaration to you, and may I invite you to make

10 that solemn declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.

14 Mr. Usher, could you raise the curtains again for the public

15 gallery. Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honour.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS DP14

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, before I am going to ask you certain

21 questions, considering that you have been approved protective measures, I

22 am going to ask you to look at the document so that you can confirm

23 whether the data on this sheet is correct.

24 Sir, Witness, did you have a look at the document in front of you?

25 A. Yes. In the first letter of my last name there is a mistake.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. Everything else is correct.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the

4 problem lies in the impossibility to type the letter correctly, so I am

5 going to correct this in closed session. Perhaps we can go into closed

6 session, please.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we can, but then we have to -- Ms. Pilipovic,

8 could we perhaps do it -- I take it it is just the first letter and I take

9 it it is just a technical problem rather than a --

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: This courtroom is a bit different from the courtroom

13 we are usually sitting in, Ms. Pilipovic. If we turn into private

14 session, you can explain to us what the difference is and then it is not

15 necessary to go into closed session. Can we turn into private session for

16 just a short period of time.

17 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, we are in open session again. Please

3 proceed.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. DP14, can you tell us in September 1992, where were you?

6 Where did you live and what did you do?

7 A. In 1992 in September I was in Vogosca. At that time, I was the

8 commander or commanding officer of the 3rd Company of the Krivolak

9 Battalion. I did not work.

10 Q. Mr. DP14, you are telling us that in September 1992 you were on

11 the positions of the 3rd Company as the commanding officer of that

12 company?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us, when was this 3rd Company established?

15 A. The 3rd Company was established at the end of August 1992.

16 Initially it was a section of the company, but then because there was an

17 influx of refugees from Visoko, Zenica and the surrounding area of Vares,

18 there were many more people and therefore, that's how the company was

19 established.

20 Q. Mr. DP14, when you tell us that until August 1992 it was a

21 section, can you tell us whether you were a member of that section?

22 A. Leaving Sarajevo on the 17th of April until 18th, 19th of May,

23 until the wave of refugees arrived from Pofalici, I was in Reljevo. And

24 then with the convoy of those refugees, I evacuated my wife and children

25 to Sokolac at the end of May. 25th May to about the 1st of June I

1 returned to Vogosca where my parents lived. I was then mobilised and I

2 was tasked to that unit.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP14. You told us that at the end of May you were

4 positioned in this unit. Can you tell us about the manpower, the

5 composition of that unit? Who was a member of that unit?

6 A. At that time, at that time it was just the section, like a small

7 platoon. There were 18 to 20 people, and mostly these were local people,

8 inhabitants of that village or of that settlement. I was made commander,

9 a commanding officer of that section or of that squad sometime in the

10 beginning of June. First time at the Zuc and the first time when we were

11 given area of responsibility about the 10th of June, at first these were

12 just four trenches and then --

13 Q. Mr. DP14, we will come to that period, but I just want you to

14 clarify the way that you were organised in your squad or in your section.

15 How were you organised in that part of Vogosca as a municipality of the

16 city of Sarajevo? How did you get organised, this squad or section?

17 A. Since my parents lived there, from Sokolac, I returned to Vogosca.

18 Because I already had, how shall we call it, a bad experience in Reljevo.,

19 where I used to live before, and wherever you don't know the people and if

20 you are a refugee, the principle was to take a gun in your hands and you

21 go into a trench. And in Reljevo, there were no trenches, but we would

22 only patrol around the village at night, not during the day.

23 Q. Mr. DP14, thank you.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: Your Honour, my co-counsel is telling me that the

25 transcript isn't working. On my screen we only have --

1 JUDGE ORIE: I agree with you that at this moment we do not

2 receive any text on our screens. There seems to be a technical problem.

3 It's running again now or not? So then we have to wait and see whether

4 this could be repaired.

5 I take it that we get a message from the technical booth as soon

6 as it has been fixed.

7 Two more minutes? Yes. The technicians will arrive and see

8 whether it can be fixed quickly.

9 Yes, we -- I do understand that we -- the problem has been fixed.

10 Yes, then, Ms. Pilipovic, you -- the last words that appear in the

11 transcript is that you asked -- you told Mr. DP14 that you would come to

12 that period when he talked about the 10th of June, but that you just

13 wanted to clarify the way the witness was organised "in his squad or in

14 his..." That's where the transcript stops. Would you please start there.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank

16 you.

17 Q. So, Mr. DP14, if you don't mind telling us briefly, until the 10th

18 of June, that is the end of May to the 10th of June, how were you

19 organised? How was the squad or the municipality in Vogosca organised the

20 squad that you belonged to, in which way were you organised? Can you just

21 tell us briefly?

22 A. When I returned to Sokolac to Vogosca to the village where my

23 parents live, the people told me that I had to report to the Ministry of

24 Defence which is what I did. And they just told me that I had to report

25 to the command of the company, that is, of the battalion, and they told me

1 to go to that place and join that squad.

2 To start with, I was a private, a soldier.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP14 do you know, since you are telling us that

4 you joined this squad which later became part of that battalion, who were

5 these people who made up this squad, and later on the battalion?

6 A. Yes. Yes, I do know.

7 Q. Do you know where they lived and how was that squad organised? Do

8 you know that?

9 A. Specifically there, I don't know. I know the people. I know they

10 were locals. I know that they lived there before. How precisely they got

11 organised I don't know because during that period, I was not in Vogosca.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 At the beginning you told us that in May, sometime in May,

14 refugees arrived from Pofalici, Visoko and Zenica. Do you know anything

15 about the refugees who came from Pofalici? Do you know why they came to

16 that part of town, to the municipality of Vogosca?

17 A. The refugees from Pofalici, I saw them in Reljevo. I think it was

18 the 17th or the 18th of May, 1992. It was after the fight, after the

19 offensive launched by the Muslims against Pofalici. I only saw women,

20 children and elderly people as refugees who came from Pofalici to Zuc and

21 took refuge in Reljevo. They came by bus. On the following days they

22 were moved out to Sokolac by bus or taken to Sokolac by bus.

23 Q. Mr. DP14, if I understand you answer correctly, you are telling us

24 that the population of Pofalici moved out of the town because of the

25 Muslim attack; is that correct? Have I understood you correctly?

1 A. Yes, you have.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP14, just a minute ago you told us about Reljevo

3 and Pofalici. Can you now tell us whether these places were parts of the

4 town of Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes, they are and Vogosca and Ilijas and Hadzici and Ilidza.

6 Q. I asked you about Pofalici and Reljevo?

7 A. Yes, they were part of the town of Sarajevo.

8 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP14, when you told us that you were part of the

9 3rd Company which was previously the 1st Company and that your first task

10 was in fact on the 10th of July 1992, have I understood you

11 correctly -- on the 10th of June 1992 correction, have I understood you

12 correctly?

13 A. Yes. The first time on the Zuc hill, the first time I went to the

14 Zuc hill it was then, after the enemy offensive which took place a few

15 days prior to that date. And then a trench line was formed for the first

16 time on the Zuc hill for the purpose of defence.

17 Q. Mr. DP14, you are talking about the offensive against Zuc, which

18 was carried out by whom exactly? Could you please be precise?

19 A. By Muslim units. And when I went to Zuc I had the opportunity to

20 experience those attacks in the following days. I saw the men who were

21 attacking. They would cry out "Allah akbar. Allah is great." I saw that

22 with my very own eyes.

23 Q. Mr. DP14, you are telling us about this Muslim offensive, the

24 attack carried out by the Muslim Army. Can you tell us in the course of

25 the fighting for Zuc, can you tell us what the positions were in Zuc, in

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1 the Zuc hill with regard to the town of Sarajevo?

2 A. Without a map, it is difficult for me to do so. It ought to be to

3 the south-west with regard -- in relation to the centre of the town.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission,

5 the Defence counsel will show part of the map to the witness. The number

6 is 3724, and it is the second part of the map which shows, depicts part of

7 the town of Sarajevo and the municipality of Vogosca. And this is so that

8 the witness could clarify the matter of the positions of his company and

9 the battalion by using this map.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher, could you please assist.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: D1791.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The pseudonym sheet is bears the number 179, and then

13 an "0" with an one through it. But since we have already 1790, it should

14 be 1791. Therefore, this map cannot bear the same number. So I take it

15 that it will then be D1792.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I was following

17 the transcript, and I think that it was the time for 1791. I apologise.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness DP14, do you recognise this map?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you mark on this map the first area of the municipality of

24 Vogosca? Can you first of all mark the area of the municipality of

25 Vogosca?

1 A. The area covered by the municipality of Vogosca, I don't know

2 how -- I don't know what the surface was exactly, but I know the lines of

3 defence in the municipality of Vogosca in 1992.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP14, could you use a black felt tip to mark the

5 lines of defence.

6 A. The scale of the map is quite large, and it is difficult to draw

7 the demarcation line in 1992 with precision.

8 Q. Mr. DP14, do carry on and then we'll address this later.

9 A. In this part here around Orahov Brijeg I don't think the map was

10 put together very well. I don't think it was stuck together because there

11 is a part which is missing, in this area here.

12 Q. Can you mark the demarcation lines in relation to the other parts,

13 in the other parts?

14 A. That's what it would look like from Motika [phoen], through Kremes

15 on the other side of Ravne. But as I said, the scale of the map is large.

16 So I can't find my bearings very well. And this part here from Kobilja

17 Glava to Hotonj, I don't think this part can be seen very well, the part

18 called Orahov Brijeg is missing, or rather in Donji Kotonj

19 [as interpreted] Where the road passes through. Or the map is too old.

20 Q. Mr. DP14, can you mark the Zuc area on this map?

21 A. Zuc is the area we called -- we called the area from Golo Brdo,

22 the Zuc area. I can't see it from here, so the Zuc area extended from

23 Golo Brdo.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

25 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I may briefly intervene. Perhaps

1 it would be helpful to the Trial Chamber, or it would assist them if we

2 can produce a slightly better map, in light of the fact that the witness

3 has indicated that Orahov Brijeg is not visible on this map. That

4 locality relates to three of the scheduled sniping incidents. Perhaps

5 with your leave we could obtain a better map for the witness to use with

6 respect to this area in light of the fact that we would anticipate, based

7 on the 65 ter summaries, that the witness will be testifying about those

8 very areas which he himself has indicated is not visible on the map,

9 D1792.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There -- the witness testified that a part of

11 the map was missing, and I see that there is some incongruence,

12 especially, I would say, on the top of the map we go from 89 to 91. It

13 seems that 90 is missing, perhaps a small portion. But would there be

14 another map available of approximately the same size or could it be

15 reproduced during the break? Because the -- if the witness says that

16 parts of the map are missing and that's the reason why he can't draw the

17 lines, then we should take that seriously.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But the Defence

19 received this map from the Prosecution so we haven't had any problems so

20 far up until now. We haven't had any problems so far with this map. So

21 that what the witness said, given that he was there -- well, he is

22 certainly more familiar with this than we are. I copied what I was

23 provided with. Perhaps my colleagues have a more precise and better map.

24 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some problem, because on the bottom

25 of the map, number 89 is missing, however, on the top of the map, number

1 90 is missing, and I was just wondering -- on the other hand I see that

2 there is some kind of an adjustment. I see a line from where it says "89"

3 on the top, going down to where you would expect 89 to be.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: I am not an expert in map reading, but could the

6 Prosecution, if they have provided the map, assist. Do you see what the

7 problem is?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, it appears that the map D1792 is a

9 photocopy of part of the same map which has been marked as Prosecution

10 Exhibit 3274. P3274, on the map P3274, clearly the lines 88 through 92

11 are visible on both the top and bottom of that map. It would appear as

12 though D1792, perhaps during the photocopying process, was folded. The

13 map had previously been folded along the lines in the general vicinity of

14 89 and 90, and that perhaps could be why part of the area is missing on

15 D1792. But clearly P3274 is or appears to be the source for map D1792.

16 We do have -- my case manager informs me, we do have six copies of

17 P3274 available and I am looking at this map, Mr. President, and it does

18 not appear as though any witness has previously marked P3274. So I offer

19 that, if that's of assistance to the Trial Chamber.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I just have a look on the map you are

21 referring to see whether the area which we are talking about and perhaps

22 give a copy to the Defence as well so that we can check whether this would

23 solve the problem.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I have just been informed by the case

25 manager that apparently the mark -- the map that I have marked as P3274,

1 in fact should be P3724.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the confusion we have had before.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the Prosecution offers copies of 3724.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, with your

6 permission I will show the witness this map so that he could mark the line

7 with a greater precision.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. We will then use a map with

9 the, at this moment, the erroneous marking with P3274 which should be

10 3724, and which will then get a "D" number later on. Yes.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think we should give it a "D" number then. If

13 you --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I have marked D1791 on the map

15 which is by the witness.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was the wrong number. So it should

17 have been D1792. And if you would not -- if you tender that one, we could

18 perhaps call this one D1792.1 or .A, perhaps that's better, so that we

19 know it is the same map, but especially in the area of Kobilja Glava is

20 more precise. Please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. DP14, can you mark the Kobilja Glava area on this map again,

23 and the demarcation lines which you marked. And, first of all, is this

24 map more precise?

25 A. Yes. In this map you can see the part that was missing in the

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1 other one. The defence line has been marked here. This was in September.

2 It was established on the 10th, the beginning of June, 1992.

3 Q. Mr. DP14, I think that you have marked the Zuc hill area on this

4 map. It is not clearly visible.

5 A. Yes. Zuc was -- had quite a wide meaning for us. There was

6 elevation 850 which we held until December 1992. There is the Orlic

7 elevation, 876, which dominates in this area. We didn't hold this

8 position. We never did.

9 Q. Can you tell us who held the Orlic position, number 876?

10 A. The Orlic elevation, and this area towards the town, was under the

11 Muslims.

12 Q. Can you tell us whether you know from which date they had this

13 elevation under their control, number 876?

14 A. As I said, I wasn't in this area before the end of May, but I know

15 that in Grahoviste was a Serbian village, and it was under the Serbs.

16 Kuta which is on the map here. I am just telling you about the boundary

17 villages. This was a Muslim village, it was under the Muslims. Below

18 Jezevi there was a Serbian village which was held by the Serbs.

19 Grahoviste, I don't know the exact date, but before Pofalici, there was a

20 massacre there and between 10 and 20 people were killed. And on that

21 occasion, only a few men remained there right up until the 10th of June

22 when the Muslims launched an offensive a few days prior to that, and then

23 in Grahoviste, the formation of this line remained. Twenty-four

24 inhabitants from that area remained there at those lines. And inhabitants

25 from other villages, but I don't really know the entire area of Zuc. Up

1 to this day, not much is known, nothing is known about many people.

2 Q. So, Mr. DP14, you are telling us that these lines were established

3 during the fighting that took place, but in early June 1992?

4 A. Yes. The first time I went there was the 10th of June 1992, and

5 this is when I got to know this line, this position. My section held four

6 trenches, exactly on the elevation point 850, and with the increase of the

7 manpower of the unit, our area of responsibility got larger. And it was

8 on the Zuc hill that the -- on the Zuc hill I was there. I was a witness

9 there until the end of December 1992.

10 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP14, on this map you also marked the positions of

11 your battalion. Can you show that on the map? You told us that was

12 Krivolak Battalion.

13 A. Yes. It held the positions from about this cemetery until Kuta.

14 In fact there is also an elevation point here. You can't see it on the

15 map. I don't exactly know what it is.

16 Q. Mr. DP14, when you marked for us on this map the demarcation

17 lines, that is the lines of defence, can you tell us which military

18 formation held these lines of defence?

19 A. What I drew here is the line of defence of the Vogosca Brigade.

20 And that's what it was like from the very beginning of the war until the

21 end of 1992, until the December of that year, unchanged.

22 Q. Mr. DP14, when you tell us that the map was unchanged until the

23 end of December 1992, are you saying that this map, that is, the lines on

24 the map after the December of 1992, did they change then?

25 A. They did change as far as Zuc is concerned. Mostly the changes

1 took place in December after the offensive launched by the Muslims. And

2 it was on the 9th of December that they took the elevation point 850. On

3 the 13th of December they took Golo Brdo and elevation point 832 that we

4 were at for the first time, at which we withdrew to after -- following the

5 9th of December.

6 Q. Mr. DP14, on this map, could you please mark this area that you

7 are saying that from December, from the Muslim offensive, that it did

8 change?

9 A. This is the situation following the 9th of December. We held on

10 to Golo Brdo. This is this point, as well as the elevation point 832, and

11 from here to Vogosca it changed -- it stayed unchanged. Following several

12 days from the 13th, the line went down here, more or less. Approximately,

13 that's what it looked like and this is what the situation remained until

14 June or July 1993.

15 Q. Mr. DP14, when you tell us that these lines that you've marked as

16 the positions of the Vogosca Brigade, can you tell us the demarcation

17 lines in relation to the positions of the BH Army, where were they and

18 what was the distance between the lines?

19 JUDGE ORIE: May we ask Ms. Pilipovic for the sake of the

20 transcript we first be a bit precise on what lines are drawn. The first

21 line, indicating the positions before December 1992 up until December

22 1992, makes approximately a half circle around where it reads "Zuc" and

23 892. Then the first line, just north of it, in the direction of

24 south-west ending to the right of the words "Perivoje," is the second line

25 the witness has drawn. And the third line is also in the south-westerly

1 direction just a bit north from the line I previously indicated which

2 starts just south of the word "Kata" and goes through the words,

3 "Perivoje" and is a bit longer than the other line.

4 Please proceed.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. DP14, can you now show us on this map in relation to the

7 positions of the Vogosca Brigade, can you mark the positions and the lines

8 of the BH Army, if you know? If you can please use a dotted line to do

9 that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, shortly after you finished describing,

12 the witness added an additional line and I am wondering if that would

13 perhaps be both clarified as to what that is and described for the record.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please tell us what is the line you

15 just marked which goes in an angle of approximately of 90 degrees of the

16 line I previously indicated going in a north westerly direction just above

17 the word Perivoje.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This road that I drew is the extreme

19 end, the very end of the area of responsibility of the Vogosca Brigade.

20 It was my mistake that I drew the first line slightly longer. Further on,

21 this was the area of responsibility of the Reljevo Brigade.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So, for the transcript, Mr. DP, you are telling us that is above

24 the letter "O", that's where the line continues, the area of

25 responsibility of the Reljevo Brigade?

1 A. Yes, yes, that's right. Yes, this road that I drew, that I drew

2 this line is the border of the area of responsibility between the two

3 brigades.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this

6 is now clear for the record.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that, I only now noticed that the

8 word "Perivoje" appears twice quite close to each other when I referred to

9 that word, it was the word closest to what appears to be a village, rather

10 than a mountainous area. Please proceed.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. DP14, so my question was whether on this map you could mark

13 for us by using a dotted line and a black fine liner, the front lines of

14 the BH Army in relation to the positions of the Vogosca Brigade?

15 A. That's a very hard thing to do on this kind of map, the map of

16 this scale. The demarcation lines were somewhere only 20, 30 metre apart.

17 That is the very front lines, the first demarcation lines.

18 Q. When you say "the first front lines, demarcation lines" what do

19 you mean by that?

20 A. Their trenches, their very first trenches on the line, sometimes

21 there were only 20 metres away from our lines, in some places.

22 Q. Mr. DP14 on this map, specifically in the area of Kobilja Glava,

23 Gornji Hotonj, Slatine, and Brijeg, could you please mark the positions of

24 the BH Army and of the Vogosca Brigade.

25 A. This here I think is the transport faculty, one of the strongholds

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1 throughout the war. Naturally, this here are the front lines, the direct

2 demarcation lines. But on all elevation points, depthwise, there were

3 stronger weapons. Now in this area, I am saying there is an area above

4 the faculty called Glavica and on this map you cannot see it, but it was

5 approximately here very near our positions. So it would be like this.

6 Q. Mr. DP14, as you are marking these positions for us, can you tell

7 us if these were the positions which were such in 1992, 1993, through to

8 1994?

9 A. What is marked here now, the situation on the map, with very

10 slight corrections, that is, in 1993 in July we returned to this middle

11 line. Until the end of the war, that was the line that was there.

12 Q. Mr. DP14, you tell us in this area that you have marked for us as

13 the demarcation lines, how familiar are you with this area, you,

14 personally?

15 A. From the end of 1992 until July 1993, I worked as an operations

16 officer only in charge of gathering intelligence information in the

17 Vogosca Brigade. And at that time - as I say, it's been some years now,

18 so I can't remember absolutely everything - but I did know a lot of

19 information, a lot of data about distribution of Muslim forces, about the

20 roads, about positions, about artillery positions. I had a monitoring

21 section. I also had infrared equipment for night -- nocturnal

22 observation. I did it for six months. I did this job for six months.

23 Q. Mr. DP14, I will ask you to the period from June 1993 to July 1993

24 when you say you were an intelligence commander officer in the Vogosca

25 Brigade. Can you tell us on the basis of your observations of the

1 positions, do you know what were the artillery positions of the BH Army,

2 considering that you said that you knew about heavy weapons?

3 A. Yes. And I think that they mostly had maneuvering weapons, that

4 is, the weapons were frequently changed, their positions were changed,

5 whether they were mortars mounted on lorries, I don't know which way they

6 did it. It is not something that I actually saw ever. But I know that

7 from many different places they fired from rubbish dumps, below Hum hill.

8 Q. Mr. DP14, can you mark for us these locations that you mentioned.

9 You told us a rubbish dump in Hum hill.

10 A. Yes. This is Hum. I have forgotten how you are supposed to draw

11 certain symbols, but here from this location, there was frequent firing of

12 mortars, and occasionally some tank vehicles -- some armoured vehicles,

13 either a tank or something similar.

14 Q. When you say "mortars" can you tell us which calibre they were?

15 A. I am not an expert. There were many shells that were fired that

16 landed around me. Hundreds of them landing on the positions, depth of my

17 brigade. There were 60-millimetre calibre, and 120-millimetre calibre

18 mortars, mostly from talking to other people who knew and told me which

19 calibre it was. Personally I never saw or I never studied from which

20 shell or which grenade, the crater was -- which crater was caused by which

21 shell.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP14.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honour, that it is

24 time for a break.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, usually we have a break after one hour

1 and a half, and we are now still some 10 minutes to go.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

3 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... when we start in

4 the morning, so I have a full understanding of this small mistake. Please

5 proceed.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. My colleague tells me

7 that in the transcript there is a mistake, so I am going to ask Mr. DP14

8 again.

9 Q. When you spoke about the mortars, can you tell us which calibres

10 they were? Can you please repeat which calibres they fired?

11 A. They fired from all calibres. I am not an expert. I don't know.

12 Q. When you say "all" --

13 A. From 60 to 120. So 60-millimetre, 82-millimetre and

14 120-millimetres.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP14, when you told us about the period from 1992

16 until the end of 1993, and you told us about the heavy weapons positions

17 that the BH Army used, can you tell us in this period was there fighting

18 in this area? And we are talking about Kobilja Glava, Slatine, Gornji

19 Hotonj areas?

20 A. I am sorry, which period?

21 Q. The end of 1992, July 1993. You told us that during this period

22 you were an intelligence officer.

23 A. I think it is very hard during this period to find one single day.

24 I don't think that there was a single day that there was no shooting.

25 There were either shells or infantry weapons or I suppose a person would

1 have to look in a diary and be specific. But there was daily shooting.

2 Q. Mr. DP14, when you say that there was fighting, at the end of

3 1992, as far as you know, and you were in this area, were there any

4 offensive operations?

5 A. Throughout December 1992 there was the operation on Zuc was

6 underway starting, I think, about the 5th of December. That was the first

7 time that we lost a position, a line, which was a little bit in front of

8 elevation point 850, some 5 to 600 metres in front of that elevation

9 point. On the 9th of December we lost the elevation point 850. On the

10 13th we lost the elevation point 832. On the 22nd, 23rd, I was slightly

11 wounded. On the 13th I was slightly wounded.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter is not quite sure when the witness

13 was wounded.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that that was the last --

15 the latest offensive. There was the offensive on Kuta elevation point.

16 But there is another elevation point that we called Jezevi and that is

17 where the very last defence of Vogosca took place.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. DP14, when you are telling us about the fighting in December

20 in this area, can you tell us whether the fighting that you call "daily

21 fighting," was this reflected on the wider area of Sarajevo as well?

22 A. Of course. Particularly after the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade was

23 established where I was also an operations officer, I know that there was

24 a joint operation and that if there is an offensive ongoing on one part of

25 the city, it would be -- it is then normal that on the other side of town

1 there would then be, if not an offensive, then at least there would be

2 some operations so that -- so that wherever there was a lot of pressure it

3 would be taken off.

4 Q. Mr. DP14, since you were an intelligence officer in the

5 Vogosca Brigade until the end of July 1993, can you tell us whether in

6 this period that is until you were in the Vogosca Brigade, in that period

7 in 1993, were there any offensive operations that were of such proportions

8 that they also encompassed wider areas of town?

9 A. June, July, August in 1993, our offensive was launched, and it was

10 underway. This was Operation Lukavac 1993. At that time we attempted,

11 that is my brigade was attacking on the elevation point 850 Orlic, and we

12 tried to break that. And we didn't succeed. The offensive lasted two or

13 three months. I know from stories, from what people told me, that this

14 was much wider. But I was in Zuc, I was on Zuc hill, so I know that part

15 very well.

16 Q. So, Mr. DP14, you're telling us that in July and August 1993 in

17 this area, that is, in Zuc area and on the positions of the front line of

18 the Vogosca Brigade as you have marked them, that in that period there was

19 fighting between the two armies?

20 A. In this part, in this area, demarcation line was between 20 and 50

21 metres distance. There was not a day that passed without some shooting,

22 some grenade falling. I think that these days without any shooting simply

23 didn't exist.

24 Q. Mr. DP14, can you tell us, you told us, perhaps you can correct

25 me, at the end of June, July 1993, you were an intelligence officer in

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1 Vogosca Brigade. What was your position after that in the

2 Vogosca Brigade?

3 A. I told you that in the first half of 1993, I was an operations

4 officer, that I was in charge of intelligence data in the Vogosca Brigade.

5 Before the Lukavac 1993 operation, the Tactical Group Vogosca was created,

6 and then I was the operations officer at the TG Vogosca until the 3rd

7 Sarajevo Brigade was established.

8 Q. Mr. DP14, when you say "TG Vogosca" could you tell us what

9 "TG Vogosca" mean, and speaking from an establishment point of view, what

10 did it consist of?

11 A. It is a tactical group, Vogosca and it consisted of a group of

12 brigades or I should say parts of brigades that were involved in the

13 Lukavac 1993 operation in the wider area from Miljacka, in fact from

14 Rajlovac, up to Mrkovici. So that would be from the Vogosca side towards

15 the city.

16 Q. When you told us about the fighting in this area and you told us

17 that it was practically on a daily basis, can you tell us from -- which

18 weapons were used by both sides? You tell us briefly.

19 A. All available weapons, mortars from 60 to 120-millimetre calibre,

20 armoured -- armoured weapons. In the Vogosca Brigade we had one tank. I

21 know because I saw it with my own eyes. On the 5th of December I saw

22 enemy tank on the elevation point 850. I saw an enemy tank. Perhaps it

23 is not logical, but that's what happened. In 1993 when we took Golo Brdo

24 in the attack, also one tank took part in the fighting and it stayed in

25 front of our lines on fire. There were mortars. I have already mentioned

1 from Smetljiste, from the rubbish dump from 1992 and there was

2 frequent firing from a tank or some armoured vehicle, and it fired from

3 the area of Kosevo hill or from those tunnels down there. At the city

4 cemetery at that time I thought, according to the information I received,

5 I thought that's where the mortars were located. And then in Dumaca I

6 think on this map you cannot see it but it should be somewhere around

7 here. That's where the mortars were located. I have already told you

8 about Hum hill.

9 Q. Mr. DP14, so that we are clear about this, you've just marked with

10 a line, can you please mark -- put number "1." You told us above number

11 624, that's where mortars were?

12 A. Yes, that's correct. Here in Dumaca, there were mortars.

13 Q. Mr. DP14, can you tell us --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, now it is approximately 90 minutes

15 after we started. If you could find a suitable moment for a break soon,

16 we'd like to --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. DP14, can you tell us this line which goes above this 624

19 elevation point where you have marked the mortars, what does this line

20 mean? It actually goes above here. Is this some kind of a road?

21 A. You mean this line here? That is a regional road or a local road,

22 regional road Sarajevo to Vogosca. It is an asphalt road, the only road.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that this

25 is a good time for a break.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps before we have a break, could I ask one

2 clarification from the witness. Just an answer it was not clear to me,

3 that's why I am asking you.

4 You told us that if there was an offensive ongoing on one part of

5 the city, then at least some operations would be on the other side of the

6 town so that wherever there was a lot of pressure it would be taken off.

7 Were you referring to an offensive ongoing from the -- first one, from

8 what armed forces? From the Muslim forces? From the BiH forces?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If Muslim forces are attacking Zuc,

10 it will be normal or it was normal to expect that, for instance,

11 Kosevo Brigade, that is, our forces, if not launching actual attacks, they

12 would then actually pretend that they were launching attacks so in order

13 to take pressure off of us.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I did understand you well when you were

15 talking about the offensive which would be followed by operations

16 elsewhere, that the offensive you were talking about the opposite armed

17 forces and the operations in another area would be your operations. Is

18 that a correct understanding of your testimony?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. But for

20 instance, if we were carrying out an operation in one part, it would be

21 normal that they would be pretending in other parts of the city. The same

22 thing was done by the other side.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say the other party would behave similarly?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification. We will adjourn

1 until 20 minutes past 4.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will

5 continue to examine the witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day. Can you hear me?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Witness, could you answer my questions by saying yes or no, to the

13 extent that this is possible. You spoke to us a minute ago about shots,

14 about mortar shells of all calibres. Did you see any craters?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. Did you see them very often?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see them in all terrains, on all sorts of terrain, and in

19 particular in asphalt?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you see craters caused by shells of various calibres in

22 asphalt?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And as a result did you see, and if yes, how often did you see

25 them? Did you see craters caused by 120-millimetre shells?

1 A. I think that in 1993 in Vogosca, I think it was then, I think that

2 that is the calibre of mortar shells that they used, but naturally I can't

3 be 100 per cent sure because this is what I was told by others. They told

4 me that this was the calibre that was used, but I was at the site where

5 these shells would fall --

6 Q. You said that you were at the site. Could you tell me what site

7 that was?

8 A. That was at the very crossroads in the vicinity of the medical

9 centre. It was on the other side of the medical centre, there was the

10 market.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects and draws to

13 the attention of the Trial Chamber the witness's testimony on page 22,

14 lines 2 through 10, from earlier this afternoon.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you -- I take it that you have

16 found the source indicated by the Defence [sic] --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I don't really see

18 what the objection is founded on, what the objection consists of.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Prosecution was pointing to this part of

20 the testimony in order to draw your attention to the limits contained in

21 those answers as to the source of knowledge. And looking at the line,

22 page 29, line 22, we find this confirmed. So would you please keep this

23 in mind when continuing your questions.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my question

25 related to the site. I don't see that this objection can be maintained.

1 My question related to the site. Is the objection --

2 JUDGE ORIE: The last question was about the site --

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objected.

4 JUDGE ORIE: -- I understand this objection to be against the line

5 of questioning which was initially not just related to the site; is that

6 correct, Mr. Mundis?

7 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President. My learned colleague began with

8 a series of leading question to which we did not object. However based on

9 the witness's previous testimony which I highlighted just a moment ago, we

10 would object on the grounds of lack of foundation, source of the

11 information.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please keep that in mind and please

13 proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Q. Witness, you were present when there was shelling. You told us

16 about the main crossroads, about the medical centre and about a market.

17 What can you tell us about these various locations in Vogosca, please.

18 A. I don't understand you very well.

19 Q. You said that you saw craters in the vicinity of these locations.

20 Are -- you told us that you were in the vicinity of these locations when

21 there was shelling in course; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you very much. What was there in the vicinity of these

24 locations which could have justified the shelling of the town, in your

25 opinion?

1 A. The brigade command, for a certain period of time, was located in

2 the primary school in the vicinity of that crossroads. It was perhaps 150

3 metres away. The battalion command for the entire period was in the

4 building of the nursery school which is perhaps 2 or 300 metres from that

5 location.

6 Q. Very well. You mentioned a market. Was there anything near this

7 market?

8 A. Well, I said that those shells fell at the crossroads, at the

9 main -- on the main crossroads in Vogosca. And then in the immediate

10 vicinity you had the medical centre and the market behind the medical

11 centre.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to show you an exhibit,

13 1793, D1793.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If the usher could assist us,

15 please. I would be grateful if you could provide a coloured copy. I

16 will take advantage of this time to ask the witness other questions.

17 Q. Witness, do you know what a Dragonov is; yes or no?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, were there what we call snipers in

20 your unit?

21 A. There were 153 men in my company. There wasn't a single sniper in

22 that company. There never was.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, you have a map which we are going to put on

24 the ELMO and we should be able to see it on the screen, too. It's to your

25 right. Thank you.

1 Do you recognise this map?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. To the north you can see the positions of the VRS Army

4 and to the south you can see the positions of the enemy. Does this line

5 seem exact to you; yes or no?

6 A. They are not completely exact.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. May I continue?

8 Thank you.

9 Q. To the extent that these lines are not correct, could you correct

10 them from memory?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Very well. Would you take a black felt tip and proceed. If this

13 line has to be corrected, could we start from the VRS position, if it has

14 to be corrected. Thank you.

15 A. [Marks] As far as the Republika Srpska Army, there is only this

16 change that has to be made, but we were in -- at the elevation 703 in the

17 vicinity, but this area that I am pointing to now is Orahov Brijeg, Orahov

18 hill. Without a military map it is difficult to show the exact location,

19 the exact line. This black feature here, this Betanija, it was held by

20 the Muslim forces throughout the war. It was an important stronghold for

21 them here. If --

22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, perhaps the areas in which the witness

23 is describing could be described for the benefit of the transcript or

24 perhaps marked by the witness. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I think the black feature just in the middle of the

1 map, that seems to me that that is the really only black feature. Yes,

2 but it could be mark if necessary, but I think it would be sufficient to

3 refer to as the black area.

4 MR. MUNDIS: If the area which the witness described as

5 Orahov Brijeg could be also be described or marked on the map please.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If my recollection was well, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that

7 was above the number"4" a little bit left and above the number "4" and

8 between the lines; is that correct?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I would

10 have liked the witness to comply, first of all, and then show the lines,

11 and then we could carry on, if necessary. I think that the lines, what is

12 important, and then we will see.

13 Q. Witness, I would be grateful if you could draw the lines, the BH

14 lines at the time, and according to what you know. If you are not able to

15 do so, that is no problem, no one will hold it against you.

16 A. As I said, this feature was always in the hands of the Muslims.

17 It was an important stronghold and they were active from this site, they

18 were constantly active from there. This is an asphalt road over

19 Orahov Brijeg, and I think that this is the peak, somewhere around here.

20 It is the elevation of Orahov Brijeg itself. If this is right, then the

21 positions went -- the positions were below that point, so they were closer

22 to our lines.

23 Q. Thank you. Any other changes?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you take the pointer, please,

1 with the assistance of the usher. My first question is as follows: A

2 minute ago you said that not a day passed without an exchange of fire. In

3 the zone that we have on the screen, was this the case? So your previous

4 testimony that not a single day passed without an exchange of fire, does

5 this previous testimony also apply to the zone that we have in front of us

6 on the screen?

7 A. It applies, it refers to the entire zone of responsibility of the

8 Vogosca Brigade.

9 Q. Thank you. Witness, when we speak of exchanges of fire, what sort

10 of intensity are we speaking about?

11 A. I don't understand.

12 Q. Yes. An exchange of fire could be sporadic, it could involve one

13 shot or two shots or there could be several exchanges of bursts of fire or

14 perhaps other heavy weapons might be used. So this is a quantitative

15 question that I am putting to you. What can you tell us about these

16 exchanges of fire?

17 A. Well, let's say that I don't think there was a single day -- well,

18 if we were to count this, it would be between 100-200 bullets. I don't

19 fully understand, but it is very difficult --

20 Q. Very well. I will interrupt you. If I am asking you the question

21 for June, July and August 1993 would you -- would your answer be the same

22 for this period?

23 A. June, July and August 1993, that was the period of our operation,

24 Lukavac 1993. And that period was certainly not, so to say, an average

25 period. At that time, the intensity of the fighting was -- was great.

1 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, could you please take the pointer

2 and put it on the dark green line, the one which is most to the north.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Very well. Could you indicate in what direction the exchanges of

5 fire took place, both for the dark line and for the light line. What were

6 they shooting at from this line?

7 A. I said that Orahov Brijeg was an important stronghold, and in the

8 action in January 1993 we discovered that beneath the elevation, towards

9 our lines, there were trenches which were beneath the asphalt. The trench

10 came from this side. There were trenches which had been dug on the other

11 side, and from this part, our positions came under fire, constantly.

12 Q. I apologise. From the line in the north, what were your

13 objectives? What were you targeting? What were you shooting at, so to

14 speak?

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Very well.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] From the line to the north the

18 witness drew a line which goes to the south, to a line in the south.

19 Q. Witness, does what you did apply to all the lines that we have on

20 the screen; yes or no?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, the Prosecution would ask that

23 this be clarified with slightly more detail than "line to the south."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness was pointing from the outmost end

25 on the left of the dark green line, approximately downwards on the map

1 which, I take it, will be south.

2 Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much.

4 Q. Witness, what you have just done in the eastern part of this map,

5 was the situation the same in the central and western parts? I apologise,

6 you did it in the west. I apologise.

7 What you did in the western part, was the situation the same in

8 the central and eastern parts of the map?

9 A. I don't understand the question.

10 Q. Very well. I'll reformulate that. Could you put the pointer at

11 the line -- on the line in the centre, the dark green line. Further to

12 the right, further to the right. That's right, thank you.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Could you indicate the direction of fire from that line, please.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Could you indicate that? Witness, please, put your pointer there.

17 That's right.

18 A. [Indicates].

19 Q. Thank you. Stop. Witness, from a point which is below line 4,

20 above line 4, traced a direction going south-west, south-west and

21 south-east.

22 Witness, if we do the same thing for the eastern part of the map,

23 could you put your pointer further to the right now. A little further.

24 That's right.

25 A. [Indicates]

1 Q. Thank you. What was the direction of fire here, exchanges of

2 fire?

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed going

6 towards the south-west and to show the direction of fire.

7 Q. Witness, what I would like you to do, could you please trace an

8 imaginary line on this map between the red circle that you see right from

9 your pointer, and the red dot which is to the south corresponding to

10 number "4" can you see it?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, when you just explained for the

12 transcript what the witness was pointing at, he was pointing at lines to

13 the south --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... please proceed.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. Thank you.

17 Q. Witness, you now pointed to the red circle. Do you see towards

18 the south a red dot which is indicated by a number 4?

19 A. [Indicates].

20 Q. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, since you interrupted me, my words

22 do not appear in the transcript correctly. I said that the witness was

23 pointing to the south-west from the last point you asked him, and to the

24 south.

25 Please proceed.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. I

2 had another interpretation in my ears. I apologise.

3 Q. Witness, between these two points that you mentioned on the map we

4 see slightly to the south of the circle an area which is represented by

5 certain symbols. Could you please show -- no, no, no.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 Q. Yes, slightly higher. Could you go higher. South of the circle?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Could you just go to the circle, please. On the red circle.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. Thank you. Now, just below you see a symbol. Below, yes. That's

12 right. Go a little bit below.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 Q. Thank you. This symbol, what is it? What does it mean in the

15 field, on this terrain? What does it mean just below the red circle?

16 A. This is a road and these are probably houses.

17 Q. Very well. So the symbols are houses, but we can also see light

18 green symbols. They seem like clouds. Now, they are certainly not

19 clouds. What are they? Can you see them on the map? What are these

20 symbols exactly?

21 A. It's a wood.

22 Q. Thank you. You spoke to us or you tell us about a wood. You

23 mentioned on the map?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us how thick is this wood, what is it made of, what

1 is the terrain in this area like?

2 A. I don't remember that very well. But as the war progressed, it

3 was increasingly damaged.

4 Q. Very well. So this wood, would this be an obstacle for fire, for

5 shooting?

6 A. From our lines, from our trenches, yes.

7 Q. I will interrupt you. If, hypothetically, we put ourselves in the

8 interior of the red circle, that is, above this wood would this wood

9 represent an obstacle to hit the red dot and the number 4 that you can see

10 below on the map?

11 A. I think that it is a great distance between these two points. As

12 far as I remember it will be at least 1800 to 2.000 metres on the terrain

13 in real life.

14 Q. But, my question is the following: The wood that we see in

15 symbols on the map, as far as you can recall would this wood represent a

16 specific obstacle for a weapon being fired in that direction?

17 A. I cannot recall all those details, but in this area here there was

18 an orchard, there were lots of fruit trees. So in principle, all of this

19 here would be a very difficult terrain for observation. It was a

20 difficult terrain for observation and for seeing targets.

21 Q. Very well.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness has indicated with

23 his pointer in the area close to the intersection of the lines on the

24 spot, slightly to the right of the number "4" where he indicated that the

25 entire area was covered by fruit trees.

1 Q. Witness, I will ask you the question in relation to number 14.

2 Can you find it? Dot number 14.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. Thank you. The same question. Hypothetically, between the red

5 circle and the point number 14, so both the wood and the fruit trees would

6 be a direct obstacle for firing?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know this road --

9 MR. MUNDIS: That's an objectionable question, Mr. President. It

10 is leading.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I also your attention for the

14 way you are reflecting the testimony -- the way you reflected the

15 testimony before.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

17 Q. Witness --

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]... fruit trees.

19 Your reflection of the words of the witness were not entirely correct,

20 made it stronger. Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Q. Witness, what can you tell us in terms of field of vision, that is

23 about the possibility or impossibility of a direct firing between the red

24 circle and dot number 14, since in between there were partly the orchard,

25 as you have said, and to the north of that, there was the wood that you

1 told us about. What can you tell us about this, specifically?

2 A. The road on which point 14 is located, I observed it on many

3 times. Because in Dumaca, there were mortars, and this was the main road

4 for bringing ammunition supplies for these mortars. And also, for the

5 units in Hotonj and Zuc. And I am saying that this road, this bit here,

6 could be seen well. This is about a period of 1993. And this here below

7 is possibly invisible in parts. And it is a huge distance, at least 2.000

8 metres from our positions to these points.

9 We had this road as marked for targets, but for artillery weapons,

10 particularly, because of its role, of the role that is played --

11 Q. I am not quite sure I saw it properly. I think your pointer was

12 little too swift for me so I am not quite sure I managed it. Just a

13 moment. Just a moment, Witness. The question I asked you was the

14 following and can you please focus on the question that follows:

15 Theoretically speaking, bearing in mind the features that you mentioned,

16 an orchard to the south, wood for the upper part, hypothetically speaking,

17 if there was a shot fired from the red circle and towards point number 14,

18 the wood and the orchard would represent an obstacle. What can you tell

19 us about this?

20 A. I think that the wood and the orchard above point 4 would not

21 represent an obstacle, but between these two roads, there were also fruit

22 trees. There were houses. So I think that that's almost impossible.

23 Q. What was impossible?

24 A. Impossible to fire at this distance any kind of target from

25 infantry weapons.

1 Q. Why?

2 A. Because of the distance; because of the greenery; because of the

3 orchard; because of the houses that were there.

4 Q. Very well. Witness, the same kind of problem. Can you see a

5 number 9, a point number 9 on the map; yes or no?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. What can you tell us, according to your experience,

8 personal experience, what can you tell us about this point in relation to

9 a hypothetical shot that would have been fired from the red circle, from

10 within the red circle?

11 A. I think the same applies for number 9 as it applies for point

12 number 14. Because I spent a lot of time observing this road and this

13 area. I think that it is almost impossible.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, in terms of instructions or orders on this

15 subject, were there any instructions or orders given to you in your unit

16 regarding the problem of the exchanges of fire or the necessary protection

17 of civilians?

18 A. Always, but particularly from the end of 1992 orders were strictly

19 bear in mind the ammunition, the use of ammunition because there was less

20 and less ammunition. So not to shoot at civilians, and not to shoot at

21 any civilian facility. That was forbidden.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I'd like you to have a look at the

23 piece that would be P3261. I just want to check whether this is not under

24 seal.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We told Madam Registrar about

1 this earlier.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It is under seal.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, we have to go

4 into closed session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we need it on the ELMO, then we have to go

6 into closed session. Let me just --

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during that

10 time, perhaps I could ask another question.

11 Q. Witness, did you have the opportunity to hear shooting or grenades

12 being fired, grenade launchers being fired; yes or no?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, is it possible to hear a grenade -- a shell

15 while it is falling, that is, while it is flying?

16 A. Yes. If it is falling within a radius of 100 metres around you.

17 So only as it is falling, as it is going downwards, as it is falling down.

18 Q. And the rest of the time, what would be your answer?

19 A. It would depend on where it was fired from. It is possible to

20 hear the actual firing. That depends on how far it would be from you, how

21 far from you it would be fired, up to about a kilometre. I am

22 not -- that's not something I can tell you precisely, I can tell you

23 accurately. But the landing of the shell you can only hear if it falls

24 within that radius.

25 Q. Very well. I am not talking about the moment when it is fired,

1 but I am talking about the shell as it is flying, after it's been fired,

2 before it falls. So some 100 metres that you are telling us about, is it

3 possible to hear it then during that time in its trajectory during its

4 flight?

5 A. It can only be heard if it is falling in this radius around you.

6 Q. Thank you very much.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

8 whether we are -- can go now into closed session?

9 JUDGE ORIE: We have to go into closed session.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [Closed session]

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again. The usher will draw up

6 the curtains.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is map number C-2, I

8 believe, according to what we have seen.

9 Q. In the meantime, Witness, and while waiting to have a look at the

10 map, as far as the material destruction of buildings are concerned, and I

11 am talking generally in Sarajevo and as far as you know when did the

12 damage occur for the most part? When did the most considerable part of

13 the damage occur, as far as you know?

14 A. At the very beginning of the war, April to June, July, August,

15 1992.

16 Q. Thank you very much. And while we are talking about this, you

17 talked about the high points of Zuc and the elevation point 876. Do you

18 think you can tell us about -- more about other elevation points that were

19 under the BH Army control?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please tell us about them?

22 A. On Zuc, elevation point is the most important is Orlic with its

23 three parts. Then I also said Betanija, to us in Vogosca Brigade, it was

24 a lot of trouble, it caused a lot of trouble for us. Then there was

25 Balino Brdo, I think it would be a lot easier with a map, I think. And

1 then the hillsides, or the slopes around Orlic, also.

2 Q. Thank you. I think you'll have a look at the map now. And

3 please, could it be opened on the area that we are interested in which is

4 the area around Vogosca, please, and Zuc.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please assist the usher who

6 is -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, so have we got the right part on --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, if that is necessary, but

8 I think that -- I think we are managing right now.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, while the usher is putting the map

10 on the ELMO, we are close to the two hours, approximately two or three

11 minutes still to go.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But I

13 have three documents to show, to tender, and these other documents are

14 here. And I can't go in another order. I have three other documents to

15 tender later on.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The tendering of documents is part of the time used.

17 How much time would you still need?

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but we only have one

19 usher, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I am asking you how much time you would still need?

21 I am not asking for a yes or a no answer.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Ten minutes maximum.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes. Please proceed.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, very quickly, I think that you can recognise this map.

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could we concentrate on the northern part.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could the technical part focus

4 on the northern part, please. Thank you. Stop.

5 Q. Witness, the map that you have in front of it, does it correspond

6 to the situation on the ground, yes or no, what could you tell us very

7 briefly?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Why?

10 A. Well, the positions around Vogosca are not -- they don't quite

11 correspond to the actual situation. This is probably a corps map. Our

12 map in the brigade was always far more detailed, far more precise.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] We can remove the map. We can

15 remove it. We are now going to show a document, D1405, according to the

16 number we have, and then it will be D1406, and then D1407, and we will

17 hand these out altogether to save time.

18 Q. Witness, you will be shown these three documents, but first of

19 all I would like you to have a look at them and tell us whether you have

20 already seen such documents, this type of document while you were in

21 active service?

22 A. I saw such documents earlier on too, and I personally at the

23 beginning of 1993 and at the end of 1992, I personally made such

24 documents.

25 Q. Very well. I will stop you there to save time. Could we have a

1 look at the first document, D1405, please.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, this document mentions the existence of

4 attacks carried out by 82 and 120-millimetre mortars. I would be grateful

5 if you could tell us what other weapons the BH Army could have used, as

6 far as you know, during that war? And I am referring to heavy weapons.

7 A. I have already said that during those days I saw a tank, I saw it

8 with my very own eyes at elevation 850. There were mortar tanks, there

9 were other artillery weapons, for example, Howitzers, multiple rocket

10 launchers. It acted towards the end of December 1992, from the outside

11 ring from the Nisic plateau plain from Ravni Nabozic and it fired on

12 Vogosca. The multiple rocket launcher fired on Vogosca.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you ever have the opportunity to see did you ever

14 see ammunition fired from what you referred to as multiple rocket

15 launchers?

16 A. Yes, and the place where they fell.

17 Q. What can you tell us, if you can tell us anything, about the place

18 of production of such ammunition?

19 A. I can't tell you anything.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] D1406. Document D1406,

22 please.

23 Q. And the same question: Do you recognise this type of document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. We can see in this document that it mentions the

1 presence of tanks. It is in the plural. You saw one tank. This document

2 mentions several tanks. Do you know whether there were several tanks?

3 A. I know that one was active from the tunnel in Ciglane and I know

4 that one acted from Smetljiste and I know that one was involved in Hum

5 where the repeater was. I saw this with my very own eyes at elevation

6 850. That doesn't mean that there weren't more of them and likewise it

7 doesn't mean that there were 10. If they were mobile, and naturally they

8 were, mobile. I don't know how many there were. This one is one that I

9 saw with my very own eyes.

10 Q. Witness, document D1407 and my question is the same, do you

11 recognise this type of document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the second paragraph, in the middle of the second paragraph it

14 mentions enemy provocations. You worked for the secret service and what

15 does enemy provocations mean? What sort of provocations are being

16 referred to? What can you tell us about this? Have you understood?

17 A. Well, provocations that meant staging attacks, infantry fire on

18 part of a line, if it wasn't followed by some large-scale offensive.

19 Q. Thank you. But was this something that happened frequently?

20 A. Well, at the beginning I said it was difficult to think of a day

21 that passed without shooting. Sometimes the intensity was greater;

22 sometimes it was not so great, but there was shooting almost every day.

23 Q. Thank you very much. When you talk about fire are you also

24 referring to heavy weapons or just small arms fire?

25 A. This can only refer to small arms, infantry fire.

1 Q. Witness, I would like to show you with the assistance of the usher

2 one last document, but this document refers to sniper units. Do you know

3 whether there were any sniper units which were engaged against you at the

4 time of the fighting in Vogosca?

5 A. Whether there were sniper units or not, it is difficult for me to

6 say. I never saw a single sniper. But I also know that my comrade who

7 was next to me died. He was hit by something that had the dimensions of

8 20 centimetres. He was hit in the forehead and I don't know whether this

9 can be done with an ordinary weapon. He was hit from a firing hole.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just need to confer for 30

11 seconds, Mr. President.

12 [Defence counsel confer]

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness, you spoke about trenches a minute ago, did you see the

15 trenches being dug; yes or no?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. What can you tell us about the people who, in your

18 zone of responsibility, dug trenches on the side of the Muslim forces?

19 A. I know that after elevation 832 fell, I know that they were

20 digging trenches in the direction of our forces and they were about 10 to

21 15 metres from our trenches. We fired at them with the artillery. We

22 fired at those trenches. And when a shell would fall, after three minutes

23 they would start digging again.

24 Q. Witness, I will stop you there. I was referring to the act of

25 digging the trenches themselves, and this will, without a doubt, be my

1 last question.

2 Did you see trenches being dug, and if yes, what can you tell us

3 about it? Who was involved in digging the trenches, et cetera?

4 A. Well, that's what I want to say. If a shell fell, they wouldn't

5 dig for three minutes, and then they would continue immediately. I think

6 that the Serbs were involved in this. I think that Serbs were used to dig

7 the trenches on the other side.

8 Q. How do you know that? What is your source of information?

9 A. Well, through conversations with colleagues, and after the war

10 with colleagues, they were personally involved with that, conversations

11 with Serbs after --

12 JUDGE ORIE: When you said you were put the last question to the

13 witness, it seemed to be not your last one because another one followed.

14 You also told us that you certainly -- that you would not need more than

15 ten minutes. These ten minutes were already over the time of the two

16 hours indicated. So if there is one final question, I am talking about

17 one final question, you may put it to the witness.

18 Please proceed, if necessary.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. My only

20 question, and it was the same question, it was to know whether the witness

21 could provide the names of these people, but perhaps we should go into

22 private session but that might be too complicated. But if possible, this

23 is the question that I would like to ask the witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So that would be your last question. Would you be

25 able, Mr. DP14, to give the names of those who gave you the information

1 about who were involved in trenches digging at the other side of the

2 confrontation line? Could you do so? If so, we will turn into closed

3 session. You can then -- or perhaps private session would do as well. If

4 you could give those names, please tell us so. If you are not able to do

5 so, please tell us as well.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People who were in the town, people

7 with whom I spoke, there are quite a lot of them.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question is whether you can give the names,

9 not whether there were many but whether you can give the name.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some of them, yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we turn into private session.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I would like to ask --

13 JUDGE ORIE: We will then turn into private session so the names

14 that you are now mentioning will not be heard by anyone outside this

15 courtroom.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

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11 [Open session]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the

14 witness?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in light of the time, I would

16 respectfully request that we take the recess at this moment.

17 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment. Yes, then that's perhaps a good

18 idea. We will adjourn until 10 minutes to 6.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, the Chamber was informed that you wanted

22 to address the Chamber.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. At this stage I

24 envisage that cross-examination will be by both Mr. Mundis and I. There

25 are some issues I would seek to raise at this stage. Firstly, in relation

1 to the examination-in-chief, we were provided with a list of exhibits

2 which included 18 exhibits that were not shown to the witness. We were

3 also informed that the witness would be giving evidence in relation to

4 scheduled sniping incidents number 16 and 17 and we heard nothing of

5 those. However, my main concern as it relates to cross-examination, is

6 that during examination-in-chief this witness was asked for his -- there

7 was a number of issues which were raised which require a decision in the

8 first instance on the part of the Prosecution as to how we respond. And I

9 would be grateful for some guidance from Your Honours as to what you

10 require.

11 The first of those issues was an estimate of distances that the

12 Defence drew from this witness in relation to three incidents. In respect

13 of scheduled sniping incident number 4, in the Prosecution case we led

14 evidence that the distance was taken by Mr. Hinchliffe with a laser finder

15 indicating a distance of 940 metres and I think the evidence from this

16 witness was it was around 1.800 or 2.000 metres, whatever it was, it was

17 certainly well in excess of that. And similarly, there was evidence drawn

18 from this witness in relation to the other two incidents in the same area,

19 and the witness, Mr. Hinchliffe, gave an approximation for Incident 14 of

20 1.100 metres, again, well below the estimate given by this witness.

21 Now, if it is acceptable to Your Honours, I am happy to leave it

22 at that, in other words, for Your Honours to consider the Prosecution

23 evidence alongside the Defence evidence as to distance in due course.

24 What's more troubling than that is the evidence led from this witness that

25 in relation to incidents 4 and 9, and I think also 14, there were

1 obstructions to the line of sight, namely, a wood and orchards.

2 Your Honours may recall in the Prosecution case we showed in

3 respect of each of those incidents 360 degree electronic photographs. And

4 if one focuses on incident number 14, it is clear that there is a gully

5 between the suspected source of fire and the position of the victim when

6 he was shot.

7 Now in order to rebut that evidence, I would have to take the

8 witness to the electronic 360-degree photographs for the three incidents

9 and lay the appropriate foundation with him in order to demonstrate that

10 whether there was a wood or not whether there were orchards or not, in

11 terms of the evidence as to the position of the victims and the suspected

12 sources of fire, there was no obstruction. That would consume, I should

13 think, at least an hour, possibly a couple of hours. Again provided that

14 does not work against the Prosecution in due course, I am content to leave

15 that to Your Honours to decide upon when Your Honours consider the

16 appropriate verdicts and at that stage to review in your own time the

17 relevant evidence from the Prosecution and consider it along side the

18 evidence of the Defence.

19 Mr. President, if you deem that it is not necessary for the

20 Prosecution to do that, in particular in light of the fact that that

21 Prosecution evidence was not challenged in relation to lines of sight in

22 respect of the relevant sources of fire, then cross-examination for my

23 part will be eliminated. Thank you.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes Mr. President. The

2 Defence is surprised. Defence counsel tried to respect the limit that was

3 indicated, the two-hour limit, and we decided not to mention certain other

4 incidents, simply because we didn't have the time, and we didn't want to

5 place ourselves in a situation in which your Trial Chamber had reason to

6 tell us that we had passed beyond the limit that was acceptable. So we

7 played along and now we are hearing the Prosecution say that they need, in

8 fact, more time and yet again they are approaching us with not having

9 allegedly contested, or as we should have done this at the time, we hadn't

10 contested certain facts. We should remind you of this. This will be the

11 last time. We always contested the existence of the possibility of a

12 shot. We contested the photographs, on the basis of principle. It was a

13 standing objection that we made. So we shouldn't be told that we had

14 accepted these details, and we shouldn't be told that a rule imposed this

15 or not, 90 bis(H) imposed certain things. If some things should be

16 respected, this is your decision, according to which a tandem

17 intergression should not be allowed, if one out of the tandem was not

18 present during the entire examination-in-chief. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I think, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there might be some

20 misunderstanding. What Mr. Ierace expected you to do is to put to the

21 Prosecution witness when they said the fire came from there to say there

22 is no line of vision to the position of certain forces. I think there is

23 some confusion as to challenging evidence in general terms, challenging

24 that a situation ever existed in pre-trial briefs or in pre-defence

25 briefs, or to put that to a witness who testifies on a specific issue, on

1 a specific issue, a specific incident.

2 I think there is still some misunderstanding on what would be the

3 system. I think it is not at this very moment -- perhaps you should sit

4 together and perhaps once try to understand how Mr. Ierace interprets what

5 is the standard in this kind of adversarial system and perhaps you explain

6 to him how this works differently, perhaps in a civil law tradition. That

7 is just in order to create a better understanding. Then may I ask you one

8 thing, Mr. Ierace: We heard quite some evidence from this witness on

9 change of confrontation lines on Zuc hill and intensity of combat. Was

10 that, in general, in dispute?

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I can't directly answer the question

12 whether it is in dispute, but I can say this: It is essentially

13 irrelevant, what happened on Zuc, where the confrontation lines were on

14 Zuc. I can also assist you by saying that the confrontation lines, the

15 evidence of the confrontation lines that the witness gave in relation to

16 the three scheduled incidents in the area of Kobilja Glava are consistent

17 with the Prosecution evidence, including the change he made to the

18 building.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: So I don't know why the Defence took half an hour to

21 go through confrontation lines around Zuc, but it is certainly of no great

22 consequence to the Prosecution and we don't intend to cross-examine about

23 that aspect.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am asking you because it might guide the

25 Defence to use its time as efficiently as possible. Because if there are

1 certain issues that are not disputed by the Prosecution, and if it is in

2 accordance with the testimony given by the Prosecution witnesses -- and I

3 also still remember about the black feature in the middle of the page that

4 the line was drawn a bit to the other side.

5 If you say we played the game as we were expected to play it, then

6 perhaps the priority in issues you would like to raise should not be with

7 those issues where your witness does not contradict or does not challenge

8 the evidence presented by the Prosecution because you might have more

9 important issues.

10 Then we come to two issues -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

12 permission, I would like to briefly say this: If we have wasted time with

13 this witness, it is for a very simple reason. We wanted to demonstrate

14 before this Trial Chamber that he was perfectly familiar with the lines,

15 and when we asked what the direction of fire was, when we asked the

16 witness what the direction of fire was, he was able to indicate the

17 direction very well. He knew the sites, exactly. He knew where the fire

18 was directed. And I think it is clear for everyone that part of the

19 Defence thesis is -- relates to stray bullets. And when he traced these

20 lines, it is obvious what the direction of fire is. He knew this very

21 well. And this is the reason for which we proceeded in this manner.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am not saying that there was no evidence that

23 was new. I am just saying that those parts of the evidence which is

24 entirely in conformity with the Prosecution witnesses that it, certainly,

25 if you had other issues in your mind, then perhaps not touch these issues

1 first. But let's -- we have two then main, remaining issues. The

2 Prosecution seeks guidance as to whether to deal with the distance

3 assessment given by the witness and also the absence of a line of sight,

4 as he testified.

5 Mr. Ierace, may I ask you, would you have on other subjects -- I

6 could, of course, now confer with the Judges, but if you say I have at

7 least 50 minutes on other subjects to deal with, then we could do it after

8 we adjourn and inform you perhaps immediately afterwards and not to

9 interrupt the audience now.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, Mr. Mundis, will commence

11 cross-examination. We don't think that he will take much time, perhaps 15

12 minutes. There is a practical problem with showing the CDs to the witness

13 from this courtroom. Quite simply, we can't. We don't have the equipment

14 here to do it. So that would have to wait until tomorrow anyway. So if

15 we finish, say, in 15 minutes, and we have nothing else to do for the

16 remainder of the day, perhaps we could adjourn --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will consider if we can give you an answer or

18 not. So you start now and we will see how far we come and we will either

19 give you some guidance or either inform you that you will get it tomorrow.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you Mr. President. My case manager and I will

21 swap positions, taken that I can see all three Judges.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there anyone in the public gallery? No. I

23 think just for leading the witness into the courtroom -- okay.

24 You may escort the witness into the courtroom and then open the

25 curtains again. If there is no one in the public gallery and if it is

1 just for the two seconds that the witness comes in the door to that place,

2 if the Defence would agree that we don't let them down first, which takes

3 quite some time.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

5 this matter arises only occasionally.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...

7 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, especially since facial distortion is the prevailing

8 protection of the Defence witnesses. Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you Mr. President.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

11 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. Can you please inform the Trial Chamber as to the first time that

14 you met with the Defence lawyers in this case, please?

15 A. It was around May, April or May, that was the first time. I met

16 Mrs. Prodanovic. I met her in August of this year. I saw her for a very

17 short period of time, and later on, it was in September, I met both

18 lawyers, but very briefly.

19 Q. Let me try to clarify. You say in April or May was the fist

20 time. That was April or May of 1990 -- excuse me, April or May of 2002?

21 A. Yes. In 2002, I spoke to Mrs. Prodanovic a couple of times, and

22 then I confirmed that I would be testifying.

23 Q. And you met again with Mrs. Prodanovic in August of 2002; is that

24 right?

25 A. Not in August. In August I met the lawyer for the first time.

1 Q. Which lawyer or lawyers did you meet in August 2002?

2 A. With Mrs. -- Well, I can't remember her name at the moment. But

3 with the lawyer who is here, with Mara.

4 Q. Ms. Pilipovic; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you first met with Mrs. Prodanovic in April or May of 2002,

7 what did you talk to her about?

8 A. I met Ms. Pilipovic in August for the first time. And in April

9 and May, it was the first time I spoke over the phone a couple of times

10 with Mrs. Prodanovic. But I spoke to Ms. Pilipovic twice, the first time

11 was in August and it was for half an hour at the most. And in September

12 with -- I spoke to Mrs. Pilipovic and Mr. -- The lawyer, and the

13 conversation lasted for 10 or 15 minutes in total.

14 Q. When you say "Mr. The lawyer," are you referring to

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin who is in the courtroom today?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness, when was the first time that you discussed the substance

18 of your testimony with either Mr. Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic?

19 A. With Mrs. Pilipovic, in August 2002.

20 Q. And during that time you say that you spoke for half an hour at

21 the most; is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did there come a meeting perhaps here in The Hague where you met

24 with either Mrs. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin for a period of time

25 longer than half an hour?

1 A. On several occasions in The Hague, yes.

2 Q. When did you first arrive here in The Hague, Witness?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, it is not

4 really an objection, but I am wondering what the relevance is. I don't

5 see it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it, Mr. Mundis, that you're dealing with a

7 procedural issue, that is, case preparation?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, Mr. President, and it goes to the issues that

9 Mr. Ierace was addressing the Trial Chamber about immediately prior to the

10 entry of the witness into the courtroom.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed. There was one question that

12 was not answered by the witness, one of your first questions in this line.

13 The witness gave a different -- gave an answer not to your question.

14 MR. MUNDIS: I intended to try to get back to that,

15 Mr. President.

16 Q. Witness, again, when was the -- when did you first arrive here in

17 The Hague prior to your testimony in this trial?

18 A. I arrived in The Hague on Thursday, was it the 10th or the 11th or

19 perhaps earlier. But it was Thursday, a couple of weeks ago. That's when

20 I arrived in The Hague.

21 Q. So would it be fair to say that you've been here almost two weeks;

22 is that right, Witness? This Thursday will be two weeks?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many times since you've been here have you met with either

25 Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

1 A. Three or four times for about one hour.

2 Q. When you say, Witness, "for about one hour," is that one hour on

3 each of those three or four occasions?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. During the approximately three to four hours in total that you met

6 with Ms. Pilipovic or Mr. Piletta-Zanin, do you recall the subject matter

7 of your discussions with them?

8 A. Well, we mostly discussed what I have testified about here today,

9 and I was above all interested in protection measures. And then we

10 discussed what I knew and what I could remember from the war.

11 Q. Do you recall whether they showed you any maps or photographs as

12 part of that preparation?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Witness, you testified earlier this afternoon about having night

15 goggles for nocturnal observation. Do you remember saying that?

16 A. Yes. But they are not goggles. It is infrared -- these infrared

17 binoculars.

18 Q. Were these infrared binoculars issued to you by someone in the

19 SRK?

20 A. I received the binoculars in the brigade, it was issued to me by

21 the brigade. But I don't know where the infrared binoculars came from.

22 Q. Do you recall if other soldiers in your unit were issued with

23 infrared binoculars or received infrared binoculars from the brigade?

24 A. During that period, the first half of 1993, I was an operations

25 officer and my task was to collect intelligence, to gather intelligence

1 about the enemy. As part of those duties I had a department for

2 reconnaissance department. We were issued with the infrared binoculars

3 which were used for nocturnal observation, in order to gather information

4 on the enemy. I wasn't the only one to use the binoculars.

5 Q. Were infrared binoculars common among the troops in your unit or

6 brigade?

7 A. That was the -- those were the only binoculars as far as I know,

8 and there was only that one department, that squad which was under my

9 command in order to gather information on the enemy.

10 Q. Are you familiar with the technical specifications of these

11 infrared binoculars that you used?

12 A. No, not with the technical specification, but I, myself, used

13 these binoculars. And I think that it served its purpose. It could be

14 used for nocturnal observation, to observe the positions at night.

15 Q. Do you know about the magnification powers of these binoculars?

16 A. No, I don't. But I do know that a physical -- it was 50 or 60

17 centimetres, the diametre was 50 or 60 centimetres, the diametre of the

18 lens.

19 Q. Were the infrared binoculars effective? In other words, could you

20 see things at night-time with the infrared binoculars that you could not

21 see with the naked eye?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, you just told us that the diametre of the lens was 50 or

24 60 centimetres. Is that correct or was that a translation error?

25 A. I think that the physical diametre of the entire device was

1 between 50 and 60 centimetres. It was quite bulky. It wasn't easy to

2 handle.

3 Q. How long were the infrared binoculars that you used?

4 A. Well, a metre, I think, a whole metre, as far as I can remember.

5 Q. Were these infrared binoculars -- did you hold them in your hand

6 or were they mounted on some kind of a tripod or other stabilising device?

7 How did you actually use these binoculars?

8 A. It had a sort of mount. We would place it in a certain position

9 and you could observe through them for 5 to 10 minutes and then have a

10 break and then do the same again, carry on.

11 Q. Did these infrared binoculars have some kind of power source?

12 Were they powered by batteries or a generator? How did they obtain their

13 power?

14 A. I think it had a battery.

15 Q. Do you recall approximately how heavy the infrared binoculars,

16 including the battery or battery pack, do you recall how heavy these

17 binoculars were?

18 A. Over 10 or 15 kilos for sure.

19 Q. In addition to the intelligence gathering that you used the

20 infrared binoculars for, do you know if these infrared binoculars were

21 also used for purposes of target acquisition?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. Do you know if these infrared binoculars were ever used in

24 conjunction with active combat, during periods of active combat?

25 A. No. I performed these duties for six months and it was always

1 with me in my squad.

2 Q. Witness, you testified that you never saw any snipers among the

3 men that were in your unit; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you, at any time, see within the area of your zone of

6 responsibility any rifles with scopes on them?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you ever see any soldiers who had personal hunting rifles with

9 them on your side of the confrontation line?

10 A. No.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I have just a couple of other areas of

12 questioning I would like to go into and it might perhaps be done in

13 private session, assuming that there is no one in the public gallery.

14 Otherwise, we'd need to go into closed session.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is it since you wanted to show photographs to the

16 witness?

17 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President, I will be naming some individuals

18 and I believe the witness might --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that could be done in private session, I take

20 it. One of the problems is that I cannot see whether someone enters the

21 public gallery because my view, my line of sight is obstructed.

22 MR. MUNDIS: I am getting a thumbs up by the guard by the door I

23 think there is no one in the public gallery, so perhaps --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. We will turn into private

25 session.

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed.

6 MR. IERACE:

7 Q. Yes. Could you tell us what was the objective of the Bosnian Serb

8 offensive known as Lukavac 1993?

9 A. I know about the part that I was involved in and this was the

10 direction of attack Golo Brdo, 850 elevation point, Orlic and further on

11 towards Hum.

12 Q. Did you understand that there were other objectives at the same

13 time outside the area of the confrontation line which was relevant to you?

14 A. Only stories that from the other side there was a second group

15 coming. But where I was involved and where I was at was the direction

16 that I mentioned.

17 Q. Now, I come back to the benefit of Bosnian Serbs who crossed the

18 confrontation line as a source of intelligence. You told us that you met

19 your first person of that category in mid-1993. Did you understand that

20 other intelligence officers interviewed such people, whenever they crossed

21 the line?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. I suppose you would have been especially interested in such

24 civilians who came from the area opposite your section of the front line;

25 is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were such people interviewed in 1993 either by yourself or

3 intelligence officers?

4 A. I didn't interview them, but certainly they were interviewed. I

5 know that, and if such a person appeared anywhere in the corps, and if

6 this person had been at Zuc, then that person would come to our brigade to

7 give the information they had. So security officers and other operations

8 officer would take the information from that person.

9 Q. Did you understand that there were civilians living in the

10 Kobilja Glava area, that is, on the ABiH side of the confrontation line?

11 A. I am reiterating: For six months, I did this job. Nocturnal

12 observation of the -- observation of the entire sector of the Vogosca

13 Brigade. And it was on the fingers of one hand that you can count the

14 men, including the troops and the civilians. Anyone that I managed to see

15 on that side.

16 Q. Apart from your own observations, did you understand from the

17 Bosnian Serbs who crossed the line that there were civilians living in

18 Kobilja Glava?

19 A. I believe that they were, but again, I am saying, in the area of

20 responsibility, I gathered data. I was never able to see anyone ever. We

21 presumed that they had trenches from Kosevo, from the city, up to Betanija

22 and all along the line, further on. It was very rare that you were able

23 to even see a vehicle.

24 Q. Did you also understand that there were civilians living in Dumaca

25 in 1993?

1 A. I can't believe that.

2 Q. When you say you can't believe that did you ever receive any

3 information from your superiors that there were not civilians living in

4 Dumaca?

5 A. I took part in gathering the data for those four, five, six months

6 until the beginning of July 1993. I intensively worked on gathering the

7 data and observing exactly this terrain, this area of Zuc, Hotonj, up to

8 Kobilja Glava. And it was very rarely that I saw anyone at all in this

9 area.

10 Q. As an intelligence officer, and with the assistance of the

11 technology you've told us about, were you at least interested to know if

12 there were civilians living in the area opposite your section of the front

13 line, at Kobilja Glava and Dumaca; yes or no? Were you interested or not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I suppose one way to find out would have been to ask the

16 United Nations' officials who were in Sarajevo in 1993; do you agree with

17 that?

18 A. Probably, that was one of the ways, but I was not in a position

19 nor was I so high up in the ranks so as to do something like that.

20 Q. You have told us that you commanded a company of in excess of some

21 200 soldiers. Did you ever give them any orders about the targeting of

22 civilians?

23 A. Ye. But in the area of Zuc where there was the area of

24 responsibility of my company, there were no civilians.

25 Q. What were the orders that you gave them in relation to the

1 targeting of civilians in Zuc?

2 A. I received orders from the command of the brigade that civilians

3 are not to be targeted, that ammunition is to be spared, and that's what I

4 forwarded and told my fighters, my soldiers. Although, because of the

5 area where we held our positions, in this sector there were no civilians.

6 Not at all.

7 Q. Were the orders that you received as to the targeting of civilians

8 in writing or not?

9 A. While I was the commanding officer of the company, there were no

10 written orders on the level of the brigade command down to the commanding

11 officers of the companies. There were only verbal orders.

12 Q. Did you give your subordinates any assistance in order to

13 determine whether someone they saw on the other side was to be regarded as

14 a civilian or a combatant?

15 A. Of course. He is not in uniform, if he doesn't have any weapons,

16 he was considered a civilian, and if he is more than 300 metres away from

17 the line. If he is on the first front line, then he is a soldier.

18 Q. When you say "the first front line" do you mean the very first

19 line of defence of the enemy?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown, Mr. President, the

22 Defence exhibit which is the map which has a number "9" on it. I am not

23 sure what the exhibit number was. I think it was part of -- excuse me. I

24 think it is 1793. Whilst that is being prepared --

25 THE REGISTRAR: Is that the map that refers to sniping incident 4?

1 MR. IERACE: Yes, I am sorry, 4.

2 Q. In the area of Kobilja Glava, was there a mosque?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The mosque was destroyed during the war, wasn't it?

5 A. I don't know exactly. I think it was. I don't recall whether it

6 was destroyed.

7 Q. The mosque -- withdraw that.

8 Would you please look at the map alongside you and could you

9 please point to number 14, that is the red dot with number 14 alongside

10 it.

11 A. [Indicates]

12 Q. Now, the position of the mosque in relation to that dot was to the

13 south-east; is that correct? South-east, not north-east.

14 A. I think -- I think it would be in this area, that the mosque was

15 in this area here.

16 Q. I stand corrected.

17 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates to the left of the name in capital

18 letters of Kobilja Glava in the vicinity of a yellow line which has

19 written on it "Kobilja Glava."

20 Q. Thank you. Now, there is a new mosque there these days, isn't

21 there?

22 A. I don't know. I don't go into that part of town.

23 Q. When you said earlier you think the mosque was destroyed, I

24 suggest to you the mosque was shelled by forces of the Bosnian-Serb Army.

25 What do you say to that?

1 A. Never. There was never a single order that was issued.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object with

3 regard to chronology.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, if my learned colleague means by that

5 whether it was inside or outside the indictment period --

6 JUDGE ORIE: That's how I understand the objection.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, at this stage --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Chronology -- I mean, chronology could mean a lot of

9 things, but -- are you objecting because it is irrelevant because it is

10 outside the time frame of the indictment?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

12 I know from what we have heard from other testimonies that this happened

13 at the other time period from the one that is covered by the indictment.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your answer was yes. Mr. Ierace, would you

15 respond to it in the presence of the witness or --

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the questions I have put have

17 deliberately not referred to the time period.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: Our enquiries continue in relation to this fresh

20 subject and I submit it has relevance even though it isn't linked to a

21 particular time period, other than during the war.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The question now has been answered. Do you intend to

23 proceed on this issue?

24 MR. IERACE: No, I don't, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please move to your next subject.

1 MR. IERACE: Yes.

2 Q. Look at the map alongside you --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes Mr. President, it's an

5 objection that I made. The Prosecutor has to know which period he is

6 talking about, and not ask questions if he knows that this is outside of

7 the indictment period.

8 JUDGE ORIE: He will not pursue the matter. The question has been

9 answered already. That's what happens now and then as all parties know.

10 And Mr. Ierace now moves to his next subject, apart from that it is two

11 minutes to 7.00.

12 MR. IERACE: That will be enough time, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

14 MR. IERACE: That will be enough time, Mr. President.

15 Q. On the map alongside you there appears a long black rectangle.

16 Please point to it. No.

17 A. [Indicates]

18 Q. Yes, thank you. Was that building a, during the war, the subject

19 of shelling by Bosnian-Serb Army forces?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Before the war, was it some sort of medical facility, perhaps a

22 teaching facility?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The same point, the same

25 problem, Mr. President, that would it be possible to specify exactly. Are

1 you talking before September 1992 or not? I believe that the Prosecution

2 has to say.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, would you please respond.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the Prosecution does not have to say.

5 The relevance of these questions go to the identification of the building.

6 You may remember, Mr. President some evidence from various Prosecution

7 witnesses as to the nature of that building. I seek to confirm that with

8 this witness, and I think he has already done it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that it is not mainly the

10 shelling, but the character of the building that you are seeking.

11 MR. IERACE: But perhaps I could press that answer because there

12 isn't an answer in the transcript. That's the last question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is this in dispute, Mr. Piletta-Zanin? I mean, there

14 was a question about the character of the building. Is the character of

15 the building in dispute taking into consideration that some evidence has

16 been led?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as far as the

18 type of the building is concerned, no, but I don't see why we would be

19 talking about the shelling and regarding the building. We can also speak

20 about the cathedral and speak about the shelling separately.

21 MR. IERACE: That has to do with the appearance of the building,

22 Mr. President. If one has seen that building, it is an obvious feature

23 which helps to identify it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I do understand that the character of the

25 building is not in dispute.

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, in that case, Mr. President, that

2 completes my questions, subject to the ruling from the Trial Chamber. If

3 it was possible --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine you would rather know it now than

5 tomorrow morning.

6 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President. Since we are sitting

7 tomorrow afternoon, Mr. President, if we could be informed by the Senior

8 Legal Officer in chambers perhaps during the course of the morning. That

9 would assist us in what preparations we make.

10 JUDGE ORIE: About the two issues?

11 MR. IERACE: Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say in the course of the morning or do you

13 mean in the course of the evening?

14 MR. IERACE: I think we sit from 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are sitting in the afternoon tomorrow

16 morning. And that would be timely enough for --

17 MR. IERACE: Yes.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, very

21 briefly. If I understand it well, what happens is that Mr. Ierace is

22 asking you to intervene on the basis of an assessment, anticipated

23 assessment of evidence. And to the Defence it seems extremely dangerous

24 to do this sort of thing, because we are just at the beginning of the

25 presentation of our case. Thank you.

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges will discuss the matter. We will adjourn

2 until tomorrow at quarter past 2.00. Is it the same courtroom? Courtroom

3 II, so we have all the technical facilities, if we would need them, we

4 would have them available.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

7 the 20th day of November, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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