Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16573

1 Friday, 29 November 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case Number IT-98-29-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Perhaps --

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the Defence ready to continue

13 the examination-in-chief of the witness?

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, indeed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, please escort the witness into the

16 courtroom.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, I should like

18 to have placed on the ELMO the same map that we had before, but the usher

19 is not available for the moment.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the Registrar, it is the

22 map referring to incident number 20.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. DP16.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you that you are still bound by the

Page 16574

1 solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning of your

2 testimony, yes. Mr. --

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed. Yes.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I was asking that we place on

6 the ELMO, yes, thank you. Maybe I wasn't heard. The map referring to

7 incident number 20. Exhibit 3834. I would also like to have placed 3268,

8 Exhibit 3268 on the ELMO, as well. It's an exhibit that has been tendered

9 under seal. Therefore, the necessary measures need to be taken to protect

10 the document.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will turn into private session for that

12 reason.

13 [Private session]

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Page 16575

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We are. Please proceed.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS DP16 [Resumed]

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin: [Continued]

8 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. You told us something yesterday with respect to point number 10,

11 do you remember that?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. I should like to summarise what you said yesterday, that is that

14 point 10 could not be seen from the lines. I am now asking you the same

15 question, Witness, with respect to point number 7. Could point number 7

16 be seen? Was it visible?

17 A. As that is a high-rise building, it has at least six or seven

18 floors and there are buildings of equal height in front of it, it is very

19 difficult to be seen, but I don't believe it can.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, with the assistance

22 of Madam Registrar, could you place Exhibit 3268 on the ELMO, ERN 4325,

23 the second photograph, please. But we need to protect it -- no. All

24 names need to be concealed, so with a post-it on it, I think, at least,

25 Mr. President.

Page 16576

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... like to see

2 before putting it on the ELMO.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, you see here a view of a part of Sarajevo. Do you

5 recognise this area and this street?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is the main road that we see on this photograph?

8 A. Ivana Krndelja Street.

9 Q. Witness, would you point -- look at the centre of this photograph,

10 and according to your knowledge of the place, could you tell us roughly

11 from which spot this photograph was taken?

12 A. Just above the transit, behind the Zeljeznicar stadium.

13 Q. Do you think that this photograph was taken from the VRS lines?

14 A. No, no.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I suggest we remove the

17 photograph from the ELMO with the assistance of the usher, and that we

18 place once again the map that we had a moment ago.

19 Q. Witness, will you please focus now on point 27 appearing on this

20 map. Could you point it out, please. This red dot.

21 A. Which number did you say?

22 Q. Twenty-seven.

23 A. I can't see a 27.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you enlarge a view of

25 this map, please.

Page 16577

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it now.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness is pointing

3 to number 27 on this map.

4 Q. Witness, according to your knowledge of the area, that is not only

5 the existence of the hill and the town at the foot of it, was it

6 technically possible to hit point 27 from one or other of the three red

7 circles that you referred to on this map; yes or no?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Could you explain to this Chamber briefly why not?

10 A. First of all, there are two reasons, actually. The distance is

11 certainly greater than 1.000 metres; and secondly, the configuration of

12 the ground and the separation line is such that that point is not visible.

13 Q. When you say that it is not visible, there must be several reasons

14 for this, a point is not visible because it is too far away, for instance,

15 or it's not visible because there is something that is obstructing the

16 view or some other reason. So what is the reason that you are saying that

17 this point was not visible?

18 A. When I said that the configuration of the land was the reason,

19 also the separation line between the VRS and the BH Army on the ground

20 marked here with red circles is either flat or sloping downwards towards

21 the south.

22 Q. And that would be your answer?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. I should also like you to look now at point 15

25 indicating it, pointing it out so that we are sure that you have seen it.

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Page 16579

1 A. [Indicates]

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, the witness does so.

3 Q. Regarding this point 15 and more specifically the circle furthest

4 to the right which I would be grateful if you could find to the right of

5 number 90, and also with regard to the -- all the other points within a

6 perimeter corresponding to number 154, regarding the towers that you have

7 identified.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. Was it possible, technically, to have a line of fire from these

10 points to point number 15; yes or no?

11 A. From the position S, no. From position 154, partially.

12 Q. When you say "position S" you pointed to the circle next to number

13 90, and then you pointed to the buildings under 154. Why are you saying

14 partially? You are not getting the translation?

15 A. Yes, yes. I didn't get it right away. I didn't get your last

16 question.

17 Q. Excuse me. Let me repeat: Why, the area referred to as 154, did

18 you say it was possible partially?

19 A. What we see in front with the number 217 written on it, I said

20 that that was a football stadium. Its height determines the possibility

21 of having a broader view from position 154.

22 Q. Very well. You said one could have a partial line of fire. I

23 still haven't seen your answer. Between point 15 and the group with

24 buildings 154, was it possible, according to you, to hit this point which

25 is situated before -- behind the buildings? Was it physically possible to

Page 16580

1 hit the ground from point 154?

2 A. I am not quite sure. On this map as it is depicted, it is

3 impossible. The reason is that this northern side of the stadium consists

4 of a concrete stalls which is 20 metres and more in height, and this

5 building next to number 15 is in Ivo Lola Ribar Street I know also very

6 well that building. It also obstructs point number 15.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, yesterday we said that you were

9 granted 10 minutes. You are over that now, considerably.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Only a few more

11 minutes. I would like another map to be placed on the ELMO, please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to understand you well, "a few more" is

13 certainly not more than five.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is a photograph that I

15 think it was also under seal, 3234. In the meantime, I will ask another

16 question.

17 Q. Witness, you redrew yesterday or partially redrew the line of the

18 enemy, do you remember, in connection with incident number 15?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. What was the incidence of combat in this area and

21 their scope?

22 A. The incidence of the exchange of fire was such that it was a daily

23 occurrence, and the fighting was of lower intensity. The attacks by one

24 side was of low intensity, yet fire was exchanged on a daily basis.

25 Q. And which weapons?

Page 16581

1 A. Infantry weapons.

2 Q. I was speaking of the frequency of combat and not of scope.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can we have that photograph

4 placed on the ELMO, please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn into private session.

6 [Private session]

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6 [Open session]

7 MR. IERACE:

8 Q. Mr. DP16, you've told us that you fought with the Bosnian Serbian

9 Army between September 1992 and August 1994. In that period did you have

10 any other duties, apart from being a fighter?

11 A. In the last year of the war, in 1995, from the trenches, the front

12 line, I went to the communication centre.

13 Q. Sir, you've mentioned certain communications involving the media.

14 Was anyone from the corps command ever involved in your dealings with the

15 media?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know a member of the Bosnian Serb Army by the name of

18 [redacted]

19 A. I met this man with the surname [redacted]after the war.

20 Q. Did you personally ever go to the corps command headquarters

21 during the war?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- to avoid confusion of any

25 kind, could one be more specific and say what the name of this man [redacted]

Page 16594

1 was, so that we can know exactly who we are talking about.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The person [redacted]you spoke about, what's his first

3 name? Do you know that, Mr. DP16? You said you met him after the war, so

4 you must have a specific person in mind. Could you tell us what is the

5 first name of that person you had in mind when you answered that question?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I know that we should perhaps go into private session

8 before you answer that question. But my first question is, do you know

9 his first name? Don't mention it yet. Do you know his first name? Yes,

10 then we will turn into private session.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

12 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, the only

12 question and you were expecting it, that was the question, but the name

13 was mentioned before in relation with a communications network. I think

14 that for the public, it would be very easy to connect these two matters

15 and to find out -- and to find out who we are talking about. So I don't

16 know whether the transcript, the prior transcript should be redacted. I

17 don't know.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [redacted]

19 [redacted] is it any of them that you are referring to?

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't -- I don't recall the

21 pseudonym. Perhaps we could go into private session. I notice that we

22 are not. I wish to make a submission.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 [Private session]

25 [redacted]

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

14 MR. IERACE:

15 Q. Sir, between September 1992 and August 1994, were you a member of

16 the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

17 A. I was a member of the 3rd Battalion, 3rd Company, and the name of

18 the higher level unit, to tell you the truth, I don't know.

19 Q. You told us yesterday that you changed companies to the

20 Novo Sarajevo Chetnik detachment. When did that happen?

21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, again, I'd ask that Mrs. Pilipovic

22 keep her voice down.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there --

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my apologies.

25 Ms. Pilipovic didn't say a single word. I spoke, and as lowly as I could.

Page 16601

1 I would like to check before making an objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: But please take off your earphones. It should become

3 a routine so that we don't need any intervention from the Prosecution and

4 we don't have any necessity to -- yes,

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I as we

6 would like to save time, could I ask your Chamber and the Prosecution to

7 wait. I have an objection to make. I wish to check on the transcript,

8 because I cannot rely on the memory of Ms. Pilipovic. I wish to check on

9 the transcript so would you be kind enough to wait a moment for me to

10 check.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in order to

13 save time which is precious, I will not search and I will rely on memory

14 of Ms. Pilipovic that that was not quite the testimony of this witness who

15 said that the company changed its name, it was re-named, rechristened or

16 apparently I am mistaken. I'm sorry. I don't know. In that case, I

17 withdraw the objection.

18 MR. IERACE: If there is any concern I can read the evidence --

19 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is withdrawn as far as I understand.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It took us quite some time, but I notice,

22 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that you are talking it very seriously by even taking

23 off your glasses and not just your headphones.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace, and may I urge the parties not

25 unnecessarily to intervene.

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Page 16603

1 MR. IERACE:

2 Q. When did that happen?

3 A. The -- from the 3rd detachment of the 3rd Battalion, I moved to a

4 company of the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik detachment in 1995.

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, didn't hear the

6 month.

7 MR. IERACE:

8 Q. When about in 1995?

9 A. I said in the spring.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And not only did he say in the

12 spring, but we are far beyond the time period of interest to us.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, the witness has answered the

14 question so the question of relevance is not necessary to discuss at this

15 very moment. Please proceed. But if you go beyond the time frame of the

16 indictment, would you then please indicate what the relevance would be.

17 MR. IERACE: I will, Mr. President. The English transcript didn't

18 refer to spring.

19 Q. Was Slavko Aleksic your company commander between September 1992

20 and some stage in 1994?

21 A. My commander, no.

22 Q. Who was your company commander?

23 A. Of my company in the 3rd Battalion the commander was Stanic,

24 Mirko, I think, was his first name.

25 Q. At any stage during the war was Slavko Aleksic your company

Page 16604

1 commander?

2 A. Yes, he was, when I joined that company.

3 Q. When was that?

4 A. I said in the spring of 1995.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again I

6 will rephrase the same objection. We asked Mr. Ierace not to put

7 questions beyond the relevant time period, and we come up against the same

8 problem, time and time again.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think the question was about outside of the

10 time frame, it was only in the answer that it turned out to be out of the

11 time frame. And, of course, Mr. Ierace could not -- the question is not

12 beyond the time frame. Please proceed, and may I urge again the parties,

13 if it would happen that we hear a few words from outside the time frame, I

14 think both parties have caused this to happen. The Chamber is well aware

15 that whatever information it receives in evaluating it, that of course, it

16 will keep a close eye on what is in the time frame and what is not in the

17 time frame. So I urge the parties again not to unnecessarily interfere.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Before you joined his company or before he became your company

21 commander, at any stage during the conflict did you see in the vicinity of

22 the Jewish cemetery?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How often between September 1992 and August 1994 would you see him

25 in that area?

Page 16605

1 A. Well, twice a week. And maybe even more frequently.

2 Q. What were the circumstances that you would see him at least twice

3 a week?

4 A. We were neighbours even before the war.

5 Q. Do I take it that you are telling us that you would have contact

6 with him because he was a friend?

7 A. We were neighbours.

8 Q. The fact that one is neighbours -- one was neighbours before the

9 war, does not necessarily explain why you would see each other at least

10 twice a week during the war. Apart from being neighbours, were you also

11 friends?

12 A. No. Before the war we never socialised privately, and during the

13 war because of the circumstances we found ourselves in, we would meet once

14 or twice a week and get together privately as well.

15 Q. How many soldiers were there in your company in 1993?

16 A. I really don't know the exact number, but I can tell you

17 approximately some 100.

18 Q. Did that number change in 1994 or did it remain approximately the

19 same?

20 A. It changed drastically.

21 Q. All right. When in 1994 did it change drastically?

22 A. Not in 1994, but throughout the wartime period, from the first

23 days of the war until the end, that number became smaller and smaller.

24 Q. In 1993, how many different companies had responsibility for the

25 Jewish cemetery part of the confrontation line? Just one or more than

Page 16606

1 one?

2 A. The Jewish cemetery itself only one company, that is the 3rd

3 Company.

4 Q. Was Slavko Aleksic in your company in 1993?

5 A. No.

6 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

7 Q. He wasn't in your company. Was he -- and yet having regard to

8 your earlier answers, he was in the vicinity of the Jewish cemetery; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes, above the Jewish cemetery.

11 Q. He remained further to the south?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1993 did he have his own company?

14 A. It wasn't his own company.

15 Q. In 1993 was he a company commander?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. So he was the commander of the company which had

18 responsibility for the front line next to yours, is that correct, in 1993?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many members were there of his company in 1993, approximately?

21 A. Again, about 100.

22 Q. Did his company include any Russians?

23 A. One could describe his company as being an international one.

24 Q. Does that mean the answer is yes, there were Russians in his

25 company?

Page 16607

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Hungarian?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Korean?

5 A. A Korean, a Japanese, yes.

6 Q. Were there members of his company who would join for short periods

7 of time and then leave?

8 A. There were such people throughout the war who, due to the

9 difficulties in the method of warfare, would leave the lines.

10 Q. Were there -- I withdraw that.

11 You said that you could describe his company as being an

12 international one. International volunteers would be an accurate

13 description as well, wouldn't it, that is an individual who would travel

14 to Sarajevo and join his company, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Some would come for just weekends, wouldn't they?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Weren't there individuals who would travel from Serbia for a

19 matter of a few days at a time?

20 A. I don't know of a single such case within the territory of the

21 area of responsibility of our battalion.

22 Q. Do you agree with me that in order for individuals to travel to

23 Sarajevo, that is, nationals from other states to travel to Sarajevo to

24 fight, to put their life on the line, they must have felt passionately

25 about the cause, do you agree with that?

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Page 16609

1 A. Partially.

2 Q. Tell me what the term "Vojvoda" V-O-J-V-O-D-A means?

3 A. Probably in your own language you have the same title, Duke. In

4 any event, in the Serbian language and for the Serb people the word

5 "Vojvoda" means an honourable and honest man.

6 Q. Does it have any connotations of leadership?

7 A. It does have that connotation as well.

8 Q. Is it a term that suggests a high degree of respect, that is the

9 person is held in high esteem?

10 A. Yes, in every sense of the word.

11 Q. You told us that the detachment that you joined in 1995 was known

12 as the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik detachment. What does Chetnik mean?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps this objection could be made

16 in the absence of the witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will answer. I will answer the

18 question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: There is an objection and the court first has to

20 decide on the objection, at least, once we have heard the objection. I

21 would prefer to hear the objection in the absence of the -- yes?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the problem is

23 the following: Is the question as put in a general sense, what does the

24 word Chetnik mean, we accept it. If this question is attached to what

25 happened in 1995, that is after the relevant time period, in that case we

Page 16610

1 have an objection for purely chronological reasons.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was put in a general sense and you

3 indicated that you would like to answer the question. Please do so.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The term Chetnik is of old Slavonik

5 origin and it means a person in uniform, that is the original meaning.

6 And if you wish me to give its second meaning, I can do so.

7 MR. IERACE:

8 Q. Yes, please, tell us that.

9 A. In the Serbian people as probably the only European nation that

10 has this term, Chetnik, indicating a member of a military unit, a Chetnik

11 implies a member of special units with full and complete training for the

12 tasks assigned to it, and which implies heroism, courage and absolute

13 compliance with all the rules of warfare.

14 Q. Could the term Chetnik be applied to someone of a Muslim

15 background?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could it be applied to someone of -- from the Croatian community?

18 A. Yes, if he is a member of units of the Serbian Army. The same

19 applies to Muslims because they have their own names for that type of

20 army, or unit.

21 Q. What are the names which apply to persons of the Muslim faith that

22 have a similar meaning or the same meaning?

23 A. Let us say "Mujahedin", for instance, as far as I know. Yes,

24 "Mujahedin," yes. Or the jihad as a warrior.

25 Q. And in relation to persons of Croatian backgrounds, what terms?

Page 16611

1 A. In our part of the world, the customary term of Croats, members of

2 such units is Ustasha.

3 Q. Do you understand from your evidence that Chetnik is the

4 counterpart for persons who fight in the Serbian cause to Mujahedin in

5 respect of Muslims, and Ustasha in respect of Croatians; is that correct?

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.

7 Objection based on semantics, each of these words should be understood

8 within their relevant context, so there is never an equivalence, a member

9 of an SAS could never be identical--

10 MR. IERACE: I think my learned colleague should be far more

11 discerning on what he says in the presence of the witness.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Let me rephrase this. The

14 objection is linked to the semantic meaning and the placing of words into

15 context.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I take the view that given the wording

17 that my learned colleague chose, the question no longer is appropriate.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. IERACE: I withdraw it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact you asked the witness to confirm

21 how you understood his answer; is that correct?

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, it is.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We have heard his answer. The -- we'll have to do it

24 with that. At the same time, if the Defence is concerned about the

25 Chamber to, at best, understand the answers of the witnesses, then it

Page 16612

1 might be useful not to intervene on these terms because we might miss

2 something that could lead to a better understanding of the testimony of

3 the witness.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Sir --

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps the ELMO could be moved. It

8 is difficult for me, sometimes to see the face of the witness with that

9 machine.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think the map can be taken off the ELMO as well.

11 Q. A Chetnik, a person described as a Chetnik you told us is a

12 soldier who fights with honour. Central to the notion is someone who

13 fights passionately for the Serbian cause, correct?

14 A. In the first place, bravely, and passionately has certain negative

15 connotations that I as a member of those unit do not recognise or accept.

16 Q. In terms of its general understanding, the term Chetnik denotes

17 someone who is above everything else, a person who regards himself as a

18 Serb, that's correct, isn't it?

19 A. No. What you said a moment ago, when you said passionately, the

20 term "passion" implies also hatred and bravely or heartedly does not imply

21 hatred. Believe me, a Chetnik does not hate his enemy.

22 Q. Let me stop you there. I did not use the term "passion" or

23 "passionately" in my last question. I will repeat the question. In

24 terms of its general understanding, the term Chetnik denotes someone who

25 is above everything else, a person who regards himself as a Serb?

Page 16613

1 A. I am not getting the interpretation.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Neither am I, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I will just move to 6 and see whether we

4 have translation again on 6. Could you please repeat your question. Yes,

5 Mr. --

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. Would you rather

7 the question be repeated and then my objection or can I do it now? Can I

8 make my objection now?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, of course, if I am aware that you

10 want to make an objection, you will get an opportunity. It is not even

11 necessary to raise your voice in that respect. Please -- could the

12 objection be made in the presence of the witness? If not, we will have to

13 ask him to leave.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that it

15 can be made in the presence of the witness and I don't think I raised my

16 voice. I do apologise if that is the impression I gave.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. President,

19 what I wanted to say was that the second part of Mr. Ierace's question

20 appears to be in contradiction with the reply given by his witness a

21 moment ago, when he said "yes, a Muslim can be a member -- a Chetnik too."

22 So this second part of the question is in contradiction with a previous

23 answer of the witness, so that is the gist of my objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: This objection is denied. Please proceed,

25 Mr. Ierace.

Page 16614

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Page 16615

1 MR. IERACE:

2 Q. Sir, what I am suggesting to you is that in the same way as the

3 term "Mujahedin" denotes someone who is fiercely loyal or strongly loyal

4 to their Muslim faith, apart from anything else, in the same way as the

5 term "Ustasha" denotes someone who is strongly Croatian in their

6 self-identity, so does the term "Chetnik," denotes someone who regards him

7 or herself as a strong Serb nationalist; do you agree or do you disagree?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I further suggest to you that the term Chetnik denotes someone who

10 is not only a soldier, but a ferocious soldier, a fierce soldier. What do

11 you say to that?

12 A. Again, you're adding the notion of passion which I do not accept

13 as a member of those units.

14 Q. We are talking generally, rather than in relation to those units,

15 I remind you. Leaving the units aside or the unit, the Novo Sarajevo

16 Chetnik detachment, and talking about one's understanding of the term, do

17 you not agree that in summary a person who is a Chetnik is a fierce Serb

18 nationalist soldier?

19 A. I do not agree.

20 Q. Aleksic regarded himself as a Chetnik, didn't he, that is,

21 Slavko Aleksic?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is a question regarding

Page 16616

1 the intimate nature of a third person of which the witness has said he was

2 not his friend.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes you can know something about the intimate

4 feelings about someone, even if it is not your friend. But Mr. Ierace,

5 perhaps it is better to ask this question in a more factual way. But

6 again what I noticed at this moment is that the interventions are not

7 always well-based, and they do interrupt the flow of information

8 considerably. I have to urge the parties again to make it possible for

9 each other to examine a witness.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE:

12 Q. In 19 -- I withdraw that.

13 Between September 1992 and August 1994, did Slavko Aleksic have

14 long hair?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you have long hair in that same period?

17 A. I have had long hair for 30 years.

18 Q. One of the physical characteristics of a Chetnik is a person who

19 has long hair and a beard; is that correct?

20 A. Partially.

21 Q. I appreciate that that does not mean of course that everyone who

22 has long here and a beard is a Chetnik, but simply that that is one of the

23 symbols, the visual symbols of being a Chetnik; is that correct?

24 A. No. Most members of the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik detachment had

25 short hair.

Page 16617

1 Q. Sir, again, you are taking my question as referring to that

2 detachment. At this stage, I am not. We are talking about one's general

3 understanding of the term Chetnik. Do you now agree that that is one of

4 the symbols of being a Chetnik, having long hair and a beard?

5 A. I have to make a comment with your permission, if I may.

6 Q. Go on.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind if you make a comment, but I'd like you

8 first to answer the question. The question is more or less that whether

9 the stereotype picture of a Chetnik would show him with long hair and a

10 beard?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 MR. IERACE: Would that be a convenient time, Mr. President?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon. Yes, the witness asked whether he

14 was allowed to add something, but I asked him first to respond to the

15 question. Please proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That stereotype exists as a result

17 of the end of the Second World War, that is, the arrival of the communists

18 or rather socialism as a system within the territory of the former

19 Yugoslavia. Such a stereotype does exist and it has led to -- the

20 aesthetics that was accepted in those days was short hair. But the long

21 hair in the Chetnik was the struggle of freedom. The moment a war ends

22 and fighting ends, that same man has his hair cut. So the product of all

23 these questions on the part of the Prosecution, refers to the connotation

24 and the context of the relationship between the state toward certain

25 detachments from the Second World War from the period of socialism in

Page 16618

1 Yugoslavia, during the socialist period in Yugoslavia.

2 JUDGE ORIE: So you've explained the stereotype of this but

3 looking at the clock I know it is time for a break. We will adjourn until

4 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your

9 permission we are well aware of the fact that long beards in fashion in a

10 certain sense, but we don't want to waste too much time. We don't want to

11 waste too much time on the history of Chetniks and to follow this line,

12 because we really don't think that this is why we are here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber has heard your observations.

14 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, are you ready to continue the

17 cross-examination of the witness?

18 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you. Mr. President.

19 Q. Was Aleksic in 1993 known as Vojvoda Aleksic, to your knowledge?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can we assume from that title that he commanded a great deal of

22 respect amongst the Bosnian Serb soldiers in the vicinity of the Jewish

23 cemetery between September 1992 and sometime in 1994?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were there times when Aleksic's soldiers were moved for short

Page 16619

1 periods to other parts of the confrontation lines around Sarajevo?

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Given this type of question,

5 Mr. Ierace should be more precise with regard to the time concerned. Are

6 we still dealing with the period between 1992 and 1994 or after this

7 period?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the earlier question was about

9 September 1992 and 1994, so it is not necessary to repeat that in every

10 single question. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I urge to the parties not to

11 intervene unnecessarily. This is the last warning.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Did that happen?

15 A. Are you referring to the territory of Grbavica?

16 Q. Not just Grbavica, but other parts of the confrontation line

17 around Sarajevo as well, any part?

18 A. The answer is yes.

19 Q. Now, was that done because he and his soldiers were regarded as,

20 let's say, particularly fierce soldiers?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Who did it, who gave the orders to move him and his soldiers from

23 time to time to other parts of the confrontation lines? Where did those

24 orders come from?

25 A. All the younger soldiers from the territory where the Grbavica

Page 16620

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Page 16621

1 line was went into the field to hold the lines in mountains such as

2 Treskavica. Similarly, Vojvoda Aleksic's men went to carry out their

3 duties as ordered by the battalion command.

4 Q. And between September 1992 and August 1994 who was or who were the

5 battalion commanders?

6 A. At the very beginning of the war until about the end of 1992, I

7 really don't know the names of the battalion commanders, but I do know

8 when -- I know of the commander's name when Blagoje Kovacevic came. That

9 was at the end of 1992 or the beginning of 1993. I can't remember

10 exactly.

11 Q. And he was the commander of your battalion; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long did he stay in that position?

14 A. From the time I mentioned, whether it was the end of 1992 or the

15 beginning of 1993, and right up until the end of the war.

16 Q. Was there also a battalion commander by the name of

17 Slobodan Aleksic, not necessary of your battalion?

18 A. I am not familiar with that name.

19 Q. Were you ever repositioned to other parts of the front lines

20 between September 1992 and the end of 1994?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Which other parts of the front lines were you deployed to in that

23 period?

24 A. To the battlefield around Orlovo and the battlefield in the

25 Treskavica mountain.

Page 16622

1 Q. In terms of morale of the -- your fellow soldiers, if morale was

2 seen to be waning, if there was less of a will to fight aggressively,

3 would Aleksic's troops be brought in at different parts of the

4 confrontation line?

5 A. If there was a breakthrough, if the defence line had been

6 penetrated, then parts of his company would be taken to that line.

7 Q. And was that partly because he and his troops were regarded as

8 having a particularly strong will to fight?

9 A. Part of his unit consisted of men who were responsible for that

10 kind of combat, that is to say for obtaining the lines, holding them as

11 they were. That doesn't mean that they were particularly talented for

12 fighting. That was their duty, and it is a duty that they accepted.

13 Q. Sir, I don't think you've answered the question. What I am asking

14 you is: Leaving aside matters of expertise and training, did they have a

15 particularly strong spirit which was a reason, in part, for them to be

16 moved when required to other parts of the confrontation line, a fighting

17 spirit?

18 A. To an extent, yes.

19 Q. Wasn't one of the problems that many of the members, many of the

20 soldiers of the Bosnian-Serb Army who served in Sarajevo were locals and

21 many of them did not particularly want to engage non-Serbs who had earlier

22 been neighbours, wasn't that a problem?

23 A. It is understandable that most people and most fighters weren't in

24 favour of the war, but that wasn't their personal problem. War's a

25 general phenomena, a general problem.

Page 16623

1 Q. Yes, it was particularly a problem for the commanders, wasn't it?

2 A. That's not what my impression was.

3 Q. The Jewish cemetery was a particularly sensitive part of the front

4 line between September 1992 and August 1994, wasn't it?

5 A. You could say so.

6 Q. One of the reasons it was so sensitive was because it afforded a

7 view over the centre of the city at close quarters, correct?

8 A. No.

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know if

11 anyone is also listening to the French booth, but I do so occasionally.

12 And the usher is requested to put on the second microphone, the witness's

13 second microphone.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you take care that the left microphone of the

15 witness is switched on as well.

16 MR. IERACE:

17 Q. Sir, you disagree with that. I suggest to you that the distance

18 between the northern boundary of the Jewish cemetery and what you

19 yesterday called the Marijn Dvor intersection, is around 460 metres; do

20 you agree with that?

21 A. I agree that that is the distance, more or less, but I don't agree

22 that that is the reason for the intensity of the fighting.

23 Q. What do you say was the reason for the intensity of the fighting

24 at the Jewish cemetery?

25 A. Well, above all, there were mostly exchanges of fire and there was

Page 16624

1 no movement on the Serbian side, not on a single occasion. And on the

2 Muslim side that happened at least 10 times in the course of the war, and

3 the intensity was great. That is why there was large-scale fighting there

4 and fire was constantly being exchanged.

5 Q. Sir, you told us you have an explanation as to why that was a

6 sensitive part of the front line and what you essentially told us is that

7 the reason is that it was constantly under attack from the enemy forces.

8 I suggest to you that the obvious reason why there was persistent fighting

9 at that point, why that piece of territory was so sensitive and important

10 was because of its proximity to the centre of the city and the view it

11 afforded of the centre of the city; don't you agree with that?

12 A. I agree that the town is visible from that position, the entire

13 town, but I don't agree that that is the reason for the war or rather I

14 think that you are insisting on the fact that it would have been better if

15 the Serbs and their families had moved further into the depth.

16 Q. Sir, you've told us that you knew Aleksic before the war. Did he

17 have a criminal record?

18 A. I am not a policeman. I don't know about a record. As far as I

19 know, no proceedings were instituted against him.

20 Q. Did he have a reputation for being a violent man before the war?

21 A. No. As a neighbour, he was almost invisible.

22 Q. Did an unusually large number of soldiers in his unit have

23 criminal records dating back to before the war?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, after some

Page 16625

1 hesitation, I think that the rule says that if one party is examining with

2 regard to certain issues, it has to verify whether the witness knows this

3 himself. This ought to be applied now, all the more so, given that the

4 witness just said that he knew nothing about this.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness answered the question in respect

6 of Mr. Aleksic, and the question is now not about Mr. Aleksic any more.

7 Do you have any knowledge on criminal records of members of the unit

8 commanded by Mr. Aleksic that originate from before the war?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the "international part of the

10 unit," I know nothing, but for the other men who were people who lived in

11 that area, I can claim for certain that they didn't have such records.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. You told us that from the cemetery one could see the city. That

15 included the trams when they ran, didn't it?

16 A. The trams themselves, only partially, only briefly. They were

17 concealed behind the buildings. The buildings obstructed the vision.

18 From the lines that were held by the Army of Republika Srpska, there was

19 an obstruction of the view.

20 Q. Let me ask you a hypothetical question: If between September 1992

21 and August 1994 you observed, travelling on a tram, a group of armed

22 soldiers from the enemy side, what you would call the enemy side, would

23 you have shot them?

24 A. Well, first of all, the trams started working only in the summer

25 of 1994, perhaps, so there was no need to think about this matter before

Page 16626

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Page 16627

1 that. And my personal answer would be, no.

2 Q. Why would you not have shot them?

3 A. Well, above all because a tram is a civilian vehicle, and even if

4 one assumes that soldiers might use it, one could assume that there are

5 civilians in trams, as well.

6 Q. Would you have regarded your position as consistent with the

7 orders you told us you received to the effect that you should respect

8 civilians?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. To the point that even if you were in a position to shoot a group

11 of armed soldiers on a tram, out of respect for the possibility of

12 inadvertently hitting civilians, you would have refrained from doing so;

13 is that a fair statement of your position?

14 A. Personally, yes.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President -- I withdraw that.

16 Q. Yesterday, you told us that there were some barracks, I think,

17 alongside the Jewish cemetery having regard to how you pointed them out on

18 a map, and that those barracks were targeted by a tank; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On how many separate occasions were the barracks targeted by a

21 tank?

22 A. I myself know about two occasions took place at two separate

23 intervals.

24 Q. When were they, those two occasions, approximately?

25 A. The end of 1992 and in the course of 1993.

Page 16628

1 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Exhibit D1809.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please assist, Mr. Usher.

3 MR. IERACE:

4 Q. Does point number 10 that you marked indicate the position of the

5 barracks? Is it 10 or is it --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, if I understand the effect of your evidence

8 yesterday, were you also stationed at about point number 10? Is that

9 where you spent most of your time?

10 A. Yes, between 50 and 100 metres further to the north.

11 Q. Can you tell us briefly what the barracks looked like? Was it a

12 brick building, a concrete building, just a ground floor or ground floor

13 plus a storey or what?

14 A. The building was made of bricks. It was probably an old building.

15 I don't know exactly when it was built. It was a ground-floor building

16 about 30 metres long and one could say that it was fairly small. It was

17 one of the smaller barracks that the JNA had in Sarajevo.

18 Q. So it was used as barracks before the war; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was it your company commander's headquarters?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was it Aleksic's headquarters?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you please point to where your company commander's

25 headquarters were.

Page 16629

1 A. In the immediate vicinity of the first line, which, as I said,

2 went down the Nevesinjska Street. There is the Travnicka Street there and

3 that is where my company's command, the 3rd company, had its command

4 before arriving in the Vojvodina unit, in the Vojvoda's unit.

5 Q. Can you please take a pen.

6 MR. IERACE: Again I forget what the colour is. Is it black,

7 blue?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Blue.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. And circle the position and place a letter "A" beside it.

11 A. You are referring to the command of my company?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. Now, could you please with the letter "B" alongside it

15 place a circle to indicate the position of Aleksic's headquarters.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Now, you also told us that your orders to respect civilians were

18 given every time you collected ammunition. Where did you collect your

19 ammunition from?

20 A. I personally never went to collect ammunition, but the people who

21 were tasked to do that.

22 Q. Firstly, where did they collect it from?

23 A. As far as I know, from the barracks in Lukavica.

24 Q. Do you mean also the same complex, barracks in the same complex,

25 which included the corps command?

Page 16630

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who would bring your ammunition to you?

3 A. There were people whose duty it was, the quartermasters.

4 Q. How frequently, let's say in 1993, would you receive fresh

5 ammunition from the quartermaster?

6 A. The year 1993 was quite a peaceful year, so that during that year,

7 very rarely.

8 Q. I am sorry? Didn't you tell us that you were under attack on a

9 daily basis throughout the period September 1992 to August 1994?

10 A. I didn't say that, exactly.

11 Q. Well, in 1993 were you ever under attack?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So, in 1993 how often would you be re-equipped with ammunition by

14 the quartermaster?

15 A. Again, that is a hypothetical question and it must be given a

16 hypothetical answer. What I am able to recollect at this point in time is

17 that I think it would be once in three months.

18 Q. As far as you know -- I withdraw that.

19 Did Aleksic's company in 1993 receive their ammunition in the same

20 fashion, that is, someone travelling to Lukavica to pick it up?

21 A. All of us received weapons in that way, that is ammunition,

22 rather.

23 Q. Now, I think yesterday you told us that you received those orders

24 "every time when we had to go to fetch fresh ammunition and sometimes

25 with greater frequency."

Page 16631

1 Does that in fact mean only once every three months in 1993? Is

2 that what you meant?

3 A. I meant that when these men went to fetch ammunition, they came

4 back with the order. And the second part of my answer, that is even more

5 frequently, meant always when anyone from the lower command came to visit

6 the unit.

7 Q. Do you mean higher command or lower command?

8 A. I meant lower-level officer who came to visit the lines.

9 Q. Do you mean lower-level officers from Lukavica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Lower-level officers of --

12 A. Officers of -- officers from the battalion command.

13 Q. Do you know where the battalion headquarters were?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Would you please mark them on the map with the letter "C" and a

16 circle.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. All right. Now --

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might the witness now be shown Exhibit

20 D18 -- I think it is 10.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist in showing the

22 exhibit to the witness.

23 MR. IERACE: I am sorry. Just before that map is taken away, just

24 one more question in relation to it.

25 Q. Do you see on the map the State Hospital?

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Page 16633

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you please place a circle around it and the letter "D" and

3 is it indicated by a cross on the map, a symbol of a cross; is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. IERACE: Yes, if we could change maps now. And to assist the

8 usher, can we keep it focused on close quarters -- yes, thank you, that's

9 fine. Perhaps we can centre the map on the cemetery. Place the cemetery

10 more in the centre of the map, please. Thank you very much.

11 Q. On this map you placed with a circle yesterday the position where

12 you were stationed, is that correct, approximately being the small circle

13 on the -- halfway along the western boundary of the cemetery?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, I don't know whether you can see it, but there appear to be

16 some symbols on the map further along that street. What appears to be

17 some cross-hatching, yes. Were there any orchards or fields in the area

18 of those symbols along that little street to the cemetery?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, as far as the cemetery itself goes, did it have tombstones?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did it have trees?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did it have a lot of trees or not so many?

25 A. Not so many.

Page 16634

1 Q. According to you, you were on the western side, the enemy was on

2 the eastern side, were the trees damaged during the war, those that were

3 there in no-man's land?

4 A. In the area that I am going to point to you, from this position

5 here, as I have just shown you, that is where the -- the most of the trees

6 were and it is understandable that due to constant opening of fire by both

7 sides, those trees were damaged.

8 MR. IERACE: For the benefit of the transcript, the witness

9 indicates the top, that is the northern half of the cemetery, in

10 particular with the word "cemetery" appears.

11 Q. Now, you've told us that the chapel was a source of fire from the

12 ABiH; is that correct?

13 A. Not only the chapel, but also this eastern side, the eastern wall

14 of the cemetery.

15 Q. How big was the chapel or how small, if you like, approximately?

16 A. I grew up there and I am very familiar with the chapel. On

17 numerous occasions as a child I entered it. It was roughly the height of

18 a normal four-storey buildings.

19 Q. What about the area of the ground that it took up, can you tell us

20 in square metres, perhaps, or dimensions?

21 A. I could say that the dimensions were approximately 20 by 30

22 metres. 20 metres by 30 metres.

23 Q. When you say that it was four storeys high, did it have four

24 storeys, or was that perhaps the height of the structure only?

25 A. It had three storeys, for certain, that I went to, plus the dome

Page 16635

1 of the chapel itself.

2 Q. What type of fire did you receive from the chapel, apart from

3 infantry weapons?

4 A. From the chapel itself, nothing else was fired from except

5 infantry weapons.

6 Q. How far was the chapel from the road, approximately, the closest

7 part of the chapel to the nearest part of the arterial road?

8 A. A couple of metres.

9 Q. And just to be clear on it, would you please point to the arterial

10 road?

11 A. [Indicates]

12 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates the thick yellow road passing,

13 forming the northern boundary of the cemetery.

14 Q. That's correct, isn't it, the road forms the northern boundary of

15 the cemetery?

16 A. Yes. Yes, actually the northern wall.

17 Q. And if one walked from the road towards the chapel, would one be

18 walking uphill?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was that northern boundary about 100 metres long?

21 A. Yes, but I'd like to explain the kind of terrain it was. The

22 entrance to the cemetery was at the level roughly of the second storey of

23 the chapel. And you also entered the chapel going uphill, but here, this

24 edge that I am showing you, just below this road there is a passage, and

25 the entrance to the chapel is roughly here, a passage going under the

Page 16636

1 road.

2 Q. A passage going under the road?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. At that point, and I will describe it in a minute, was the second

5 level of the chapel at ground level?

6 A. Yes, in relation to the entrance to the cemetery, which was here.

7 But the entrance to the chapel was here.

8 Q. Now, where you first indicated the entrance to the chapel, you

9 said approximately in the middle of the red circle?

10 A. [Indicates]

11 Q. No, the other position, the other entrance.

12 A. This is the entrance to the cemetery, not the chapel, and then

13 after you enter the cemetery, you could enter the higher storey of the

14 chapel.

15 Q. All right. Now, I think you earlier indicated when you said the

16 entrance to the chapel was under the road, slightly to the south of the

17 intersection of the arterial road and the road forming the western, that

18 is, the north-western boundary of the cemetery; is that correct?

19 A. People lived in this chapel, people who were maintaining the

20 chapel and who were providing maintenance for the Jewish cemetery. And

21 the entrance to their dwelling was from this subway that passes under the

22 road and that is the entrance to their apartment and the entrance to the

23 chapel is here.

24 Q. Would you please take a blue pen and draw as accurately as you can

25 on the map, the walls of the chapel, its position in the cemetery.

Page 16637

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Thank you for that.

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I ask the witness be shown an exhibit

4 that might take a few moments to find it, Exhibit P3279-J. I think there

5 are a number of photographs which are part of that exhibit. I would like

6 the witness to see one and then another. The first photograph is marked

7 22-A.

8 Q. Now, if one walked north from that part of the arterial road,

9 would it ground drop suddenly away?

10 A. It was constantly dropping away.

11 Q. But at the road level there is something of a ledge as you look

12 north; isn't that the case? You would be walking down steps or a steep

13 slope if you went north from the arterial road; isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And in terms of the area within the circle, were there any other

16 buildings apart from the chapel either on the road level or to the south

17 or was the chapel the only one?

18 A. At the road level there was just a checkpoint of the French units

19 and nothing else.

20 Q. Before the war was there a garage in that area on the other side

21 of the road or some similar building, elevated?

22 A. I don't remember that.

23 Q. Was there a guardrail along that part of the arterial road because

24 of the drop?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16638

1 Q. Was it a two-lane fairly major road?

2 A. Yes. We called it the transit.

3 Q. So I take it the chapel was quite an irritation to you and your

4 fellow soldiers being such a constant source of fire and being the only

5 building in that area, either at road level or between your forces and the

6 road; is that correct?

7 A. One could put it that way.

8 MR. IERACE: I don't know whether Madam Registrar has finished

9 locating --

10 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some problems in retrieving the --

11 MR. IERACE: To save time, Mr. President, perhaps I could show the

12 witness my copy, and when the other is located, we could change them

13 around.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps that is a good way of doing it. Might I

15 just first have a look at it, if they do not come from the Registry.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is it sufficient for the Defence to look at it on the

18 ELMO, or would you like to see it prior to that?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am sorry?

20 JUDGE ORIE: The original has been found, so perhaps Mr. Ierace

21 could have that back.

22 MR. IERACE: It was on the Defence list, anyway, Mr. President.

23 Q. Now, when the -- when you have an opportunity to look at the

24 photograph, can you tell me if this appears to be the view that one would

25 have if you were standing between the arterial road and the chapel and

Page 16639

1 looking north? I don't suggest this photograph was taken during the war,

2 but rather after the war.

3 A. First, it is clear that it was done after the war, and this can be

4 seen by this building where the high representative is housed now. And

5 this photograph was taken roughly in front of the entrance to the

6 cemetery, not in front of the chapel, but in front of the entrance to the

7 cemetery.

8 Q. All right. Now, in the foreground we see the arterial road,

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And we see what appears to be a garage that has been elevated to

12 road level. Was that there during the war?

13 A. I could not see that from any position.

14 Q. But you've told us that you knew the area extremely well and had

15 since you were a child. Can you tell us, was that building there before

16 the war?

17 A. By its appearance, I could say that it was, but I really don't see

18 that I have to remember a garage.

19 Q. All right. Is it your evidence that you don't remember, but going

20 on some holes in the bricks you think maybe it was damaged during the war;

21 is that the situation?

22 A. Possibly, yes.

23 Q. Now, approximately how far to the left would this be from the

24 chapel -- I'm sorry -- how far to the right would this be from the chapel

25 having regard to your earlier answer that you think this photograph was

Page 16640

1 taken from the entrance to the cemetery, rather than in front of the

2 chapel?

3 A. It could be some 50 metres away from the chapel, but from the

4 position that I was in it is impossible to see this building.

5 Q. Do you remember that you earlier indicated that the stairs, that

6 is the entrance to the cemetery was in the middle of the red circle?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that the front of the cemetery was approximately 100 metres,

9 that boundary?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that the chapel was approximately 20 by 30 metres?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I suggest to you that when you put all those figures together, the

14 distance between the entrance to the cemetery and the closest part of the

15 chapel would have been significantly less than 50 metres.

16 A. From the entrance to the cemetery to the chapel?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Of course, it's less than 50 metres.

19 Q. Now, from the position of the photographer there was a view of the

20 intersection of Marijn Dvor, do you agree with that, whenever this

21 photograph --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you see the intersection in the area of the centre of the

24 photograph?

25 A. Yes.

Page 16641

1 Q. From the chapel would you expect there would --

2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is now looking to -- without being asked

3 to do so. If Mr. Ierace would like you to look at another photograph, he

4 will ask you to do such. Yes, please proceed.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Would you please point to the intersection.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates an area slightly to the right of

9 the centre of the photograph in the vicinity of what appears to be a patch

10 of dark blue.

11 Q. Now, from the chapel would you expect there would have been a

12 clear view of the intersection?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. IERACE: I ask the witness now be shown the second photograph,

15 that is the same exhibit number ending in ERN 24-A. And perhaps the first

16 photograph can be kept close by so the witness can look at both.

17 Q. Do you agree with me that what we appear to have here is a

18 telephoto photograph of the Marijn Dvor intersection taken from the same

19 position as where the first photograph was taken? And if you like, take

20 your time and compare the two photographs to satisfy yourself that that is

21 correct.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Now, would you please with the assistance of the

24 usher -- I withdraw that.

25 Looking at this photograph, yesterday you told us that in relation

Page 16642

1 to the buildings to the right there was a wall. Do you remember saying

2 that, that is --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you see the wall in this photograph?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Would you --

7 A. Sorry.

8 Q. Would you please point to -- I am sorry.

9 A. I am unable to recognise it here. This doesn't look to me to be

10 that wall. Maybe this photograph was taken after the war, sufficiently

11 later when the war, because of its damage and unfunctionality was pulled

12 down.

13 Q. I don't want to mislead you, this photograph was certainly taken

14 after the war, as was the earlier one. You pointed to in your answer to a

15 wall that is white and has a number of cars parked along it. The wall is

16 to the bottom of the photograph from the middle the right. Now, was that

17 the position of the wall, approximately, that was there during the war?

18 A. This wall should have had a different appearance before the war,

19 and I show you now. Roughly from this position where we have the lamp

20 post and along this line which is even longer, it extends beyond the

21 framework of this photograph.

22 MR. IERACE: The witness indicates from the lamp post which

23 appears to the right of the blue area extending with his pointer from that

24 position to the left, and then downwards to the bottom left-hand corner of

25 the photograph.

Page 16643

1 Q. Now, from where the photographer was standing, the wall would not

2 have impeded the view of the tramline, would it?

3 A. Certainly not.

4 Q. And having regard to the height difference between the position

5 where the wall was and the tram, I take it you would not expect the wall

6 to impede a line of sight from the chapel to where the tram was, correct?

7 A. I assume that's right.

8 Q. Now --

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me.

10 Q. Would you please return to the other photograph and could you

11 please point out the State Hospital.

12 A. [Indicates]

13 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates white high-rise building facing the

14 position of the photographer halfway down the photograph and mid-way

15 between the centre and the right hand margin.

16 Q. Would you expect -- I withdraw that.

17 Were you able to see the State Hospital from where you were during

18 the war?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, would you please point to the executive buildings in this

21 photograph.

22 A. This is the Executive Council building and this is the Assembly

23 building, Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 MR. IERACE: Witness indicated the two immediately adjoining

25 high-rise buildings as the executive buildings and the lower building in

Page 16644

1 front with horizontal white stripes indicating about five storeys or six

2 storeys as the Executive Council building.

3 Q. Yesterday, in a different photograph you commented on the holes in

4 the side of the executive building and said those holes were made by tank

5 fire from Bosnian Serb forces in response to sniping; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were you sniped from those buildings?

8 A. Yes, on several occasions.

9 Q. How do you know this sniper fire came from those buildings?

10 A. That is experience that is gained in wartime.

11 Q. Did you have any military experience before the war?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So do you tell us that as an ordinary civilian, as a result of

14 being under fire one develops the ability to detect the source of sniping

15 fire, even over half a kilometre, is that what you tell us?

16 A. Not just that, but there were also other means of detecting sniper

17 positions.

18 Q. But partly that? I don't dispute it. I simply want you to

19 clarify.

20 A. That's why I say that there are also other means of determining

21 the exact source of or origin of sniper activity.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP16, Mr. Ierace asked you now twice whether on

23 the basis of your experience in the war you were able, even without having

24 specific military training before the war, that on the basis of this

25 experience that you were able to know or to identify where sniper fire

Page 16645

1 came from, that you --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: You can tell us if you want about the other sources,

4 but this was the question. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Now, to the right of the executive we see another high-rise

7 building of a similar height. Would you please point to it.

8 A. [Indicates]

9 MR. IERACE: Witness does so, at the high-rise in the centre of

10 the photograph.

11 Q. What building was that?

12 A. That building behind it of the same size and of the same

13 appearance, we called it Moma and Uzeir. These are buildings used as

14 business premises.

15 Q. To your personal knowledge, did it ever have a military purpose

16 during the war?

17 A. I personally am not aware of these buildings having been used to

18 act against the units of the Army of Republika Srpska at the positions

19 where I was stationed, but similarly actually both directions was visible.

20 It was fire being opened from those buildings and from the Marshal Tito

21 Barracks while the JNA was still located there.

22 Q. All right. So we are talking about in mid-1992, is that correct,

23 early or mid-1992?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your answer it was translated -- you were translated as saying

Page 16646

1 "these buildings" but we only see one in the photograph in that position.

2 Did you mean "this building" or "these buildings"?

3 A. Yes, the same buildings. A small part which you should be able to

4 see here to the left, it is a little lighter it is the same one, the

5 Marshal Tito Barracks is located here. So from the Marshal Tito Barracks

6 you can see both buildings.

7 MR. IERACE: Witness indicates in relation to the position of

8 Marshal Tito Barracks a complex halfway down the photograph and on the

9 extreme left. Now --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Ierace, we should clarify that the

11 witness pointed at the darker high-rise building in the middle of the

12 photograph that this building is hiding almost completely another one that

13 is behind it from the point of view of the photographer.

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, I agree with that.

15 Q. Now, you told us that the executive was shelled twice. When?

16 A. You mean that the men from the Republika Srpska Army shelled the

17 Executive Council building on two occasions? Well, I can say that that

18 was in the course of 1992 and 1993.

19 Q. Now, you said Executive Council. Do you mean the high-rise

20 buildings or the low-rise white building? I am asking you about the

21 high-rise building with the visible tank shell holes. Yes.

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. When was that shelled?

24 A. If this is the building you are referring to, I think it was

25 towards the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993.

Page 16647

1 Q. When it was shelled, did that stop the sniping? To be clearer,

2 was there sniping at any stage from that building after it was shelled in

3 1993?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So snipers were able to use the burnt-out building; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In some ways I imagine it would have been even harder to see the

9 snipers operating from the building in its burnt-out condition rather than

10 its pristine condition, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So, sir, that wasn't the real reason it was shelled by Bosnian

13 Serb forces, was it, to stop snipers?

14 A. I can't really judge that.

15 Q. Well, the building had symbolic significance, didn't it?

16 A. This was the building of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

17 yes.

18 Q. Of which Republika Srpska did not want to be a part, correct?

19 A. That's not correct. This building was the building of the

20 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I am not referring to the Muslim side,

21 but to the joint republic which was part of Yugoslavia.

22 Q. Indeed. But didn't the -- wouldn't you tell us that the Serb

23 community, the majority of the Serb community disagreed with what the

24 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina did in 1992 in terms of declaring its

25 independence from the former Yugoslavia; isn't that what you would say?

Page 16648

1 A. I personally didn't speak about that, but this building has

2 nothing to do with the matter.

3 Q. I suggest to you that the building was hit and gutted because of

4 its symbolic importance; do you agree or disagree or say you don't know?

5 A. I don't agree with you. That building is a symbol of Sarajevo and

6 of the Muslims and the Croats and of Serbs, as well. So it would not be

7 right to accuse one side of having done this for political reasons. The

8 shelling was directed against snipers and that's all.

9 Q. Now, the high-rise building, that is the one of the two that we

10 can see at the intersection, was that gutted during the war, in the early

11 stages of the war as a result of fire from the Bosnian Serb side?

12 A. It was translated to me as "destroyed" whereas you can see that

13 this is not the case. It was damaged, but it -- not by the Army of

14 Republika Srpska, but by the JNA. All the window panes were shattered in

15 an exchange of fire between the two armies, the JNA which was in the

16 Marshal Tito Barracks, and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, or

17 rather the BH Army.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I ask you if you continue this line

19 of questioning, perhaps you could please consider in what way this will

20 assist the Chamber in making its determinations. I see that there is an

21 exchange of, rather interpretation, of what happened --

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I'll move on.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Your position is clear and I think the answers of

24 the witness is clear as well. Please proceed.

25 MR. IERACE:

Page 16649

1 Q. Incidently in giving your answer you said that the fire was caused

2 by the JNA, not the Bosnian-Serb Army, and yesterday you told us that the

3 JNA withdrew. Sir, what was the name of the JNA Corps that was

4 responsible for Sarajevo before the war? What part of the JNA was it?

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.

6 Objection. The first thing that we request, if you think this is useful,

7 this is someone who hasn't got any training or military -- or didn't do

8 any military service, one should ask such a person how he could have had

9 such knowledge. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he came up with the answer without specifically

11 being asked on it. You told us that the building you just indicated was

12 damaged by the JNA, and Mr. Ierace asked you what part of the JNA was

13 there before the war? What is the basis of your knowledge that this

14 building was damaged by the JNA?

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interest of saving time, that's

16 not actually the point of the question. Rather the point is --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do know that -- I do understand that I am not

18 putting exactly the same question as you intended to do, but I would first

19 see to clarify. How do you exactly know that it was the JNA that damaged

20 that building or a part of the JNA?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] General knowledge of the situation

22 in Yugoslavia before the war broke out, this territory was considered to

23 be the territory of the Sarajevo Army.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And part of these --

Page 16650

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- How do you know that this building was damaged by

2 the part of the JNA? Did you see it happening?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly.

4 JUDGE ORIE: From where did you see it?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From my home.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you see the source of fire of the bullets or

7 shells that hit the building?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't believe there were any

9 shells. There was -- fire was opened from rifles, that was visible.

10 That's also characteristic of this war. Both sides --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Where --

12 THE WITNESS: -- Used incendiary ammunition, so it was visible at

13 all times.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You said "both sides"? That does not appear in the

15 transcript. Did you say both sides used incendiary ammunition?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking you where did you see the rifles and as

18 I now understand, perhaps both sides, but where did you see the rifles

19 that were firing at this building, when it was damaged?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From that distance I couldn't see

21 the rifles, but I saw fire being exchanged in both directions. So from

22 the office buildings I am pointing to you and the Marshal Tito Barracks,

23 which was located here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand your answer correctly if I say

25 that you saw fire coming from both sides, and that although you couldn't

Page 16651

1 see the rifles that you observed fire coming from the area of the

2 Marshal Tito Barracks when this building was damaged?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. Might the witness again

6 have map -- the earlier map on the ELMO, the one he first saw, I think it

7 is D1180 and might the witness be given a ruler, if someone has a ruler.

8 Q. Sir, first of all, would you place a dot in the middle of the

9 chapel.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. In the middle -- thank you very much. Would you now take the

12 ruler and lay an edge of the ruler so that the red dot, the middle of the

13 red dot 24 and the middle of the dot you just placed on the chapel are

14 lined up.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 Q. Thank you. And would you now take a blue pen and draw a line

17 connecting, the red dot, the blue dot in the middle of the chapel and

18 extend that same line very carefully down to the bottom of the map.

19 A. [Marks]

20 Q. Thank you. Now, the tanks that fired on the executive, where were

21 they when they hit the executive? That's in late 1993 and early -- I am

22 sorry -- late 1992 and early 1993.

23 A. Yes. At this location, more or less.

24 Q. All right. Would you please place a cross there and the letter

25 "A" alongside the cross.

Page 16652

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Do you know how many tanks were involved on those two occasions?

3 Was it one or more than one?

4 A. One.

5 Q. All right. Now, I draw your attention back to the chapel on the

6 map and where you placed the front line yesterday of the ABiH, it comes up

7 across the arterial road, incorporates the chapel, and then moves easterly

8 across the northern part of the cemetery to the eastern boundary; is that

9 correct? That's correct, I think, do you agree?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Incidently, the eastern and western sides, were they approximately

12 300 metres long each, the eastern side and the western side of the

13 cemetery, just approximately.

14 A. You are referring to the walls of the cemetery?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now, can you tell me this: If your forces -- I am

18 sorry -- if the enemy forces controlled the chapel, such a significant

19 position, it being the only building on that part of the confrontation

20 line for the ABiH, do you know why your forces did not destroy it?

21 A. The reason was the cultural significance they had.

22 Q. I see. So did you ever fire at the chapel?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were mortars used against the chapel?

25 A. No.

Page 16653

1 Q. Shells were never used against the chapel; is that correct?

2 Mortars shells, artillery shells, tank shells?

3 A. At the very beginning of the war, as far as I can remember,

4 heavy -- a heavy weapon was used on one occasion in that direction.

5 Q. Sir, I suggest to you --

6 A. In the direction of the chapel.

7 Q. I suggest to you there was a reason why the chapel wasn't

8 destroyed. I suggest to you the reason is that your forces occupied it.

9 A. At the very beginning of the war, I personally phoned the

10 official, the Jewish official in Sarajevo at the time to tell him to do

11 everything in the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina to ensure that the

12 BH TO and later the BH Army leave. The Serbian forces and I, as

13 neighbours in that building, I was never in that building from 1992 up

14 until today. Not a single member nor a single member of the Army of

15 Republika Srpska.

16 Q. There was no reason why the tank could not have continued up

17 through your road and being a tank simply blasting the building, was

18 there, technically?

19 A. In technical terms, yes, but not in military terms.

20 Q. In military terms you say that a building being the executive of

21 the state was not an impediment to using tank fire to eliminate snipers,

22 but a cemetery chapel was; is that correct?

23 A. That's not exactly what I said, but in principle I could agree

24 with that conclusion.

25 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

Page 16654

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it is time for a break. Mr. Ierace, do

2 you have any idea how much time you would still need?

3 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I may -- it is difficult for me to

4 anticipate. I will be within the time taken by the Defence. I expect in

5 the order of half an hour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think taking into consideration

7 interruptions, et cetera, et cetera, I think it would be fair to limit you

8 to 20 minutes. That's -- I have on my list until now, two and a half

9 hours. The Defence took approximately two hours to 40 and 45 minutes.

10 There would be a bit more interruptions as the Prosecution was examining

11 the witness. So if you could please try to finish in 20 minutes. We will

12 adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

16 MR. IERACE:

17 Q. Sir, would you please place the better "B" on the map alongside

18 the circle indicating your position.

19 MR. IERACE: We have lost the ELMO.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It appears again on our screen.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. Would you please place the better "B" alongside the circle

23 indicating your position.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Having regard to the line that you drew earlier, we see that there

Page 16655

1 is the same line of sight subject to obstacles as was enjoyed by the

2 chapel of the intersection at Marijn Dvor, correct?

3 A. Yes, on this map that is how it is.

4 Q. Now, I suggest to you that the difference in height between the

5 chapel and the land where you were is in excess of 40 metres, in other

6 words, the area where you and your fellow troops were positioned is at

7 least 40 metres, not feet, metres higher than where the chapel was. Do

8 you agree, disagree or do you say you don't know?

9 A. I disagree.

10 Q. Did your company -- I withdraw that.

11 Did your forces have anti-aircraft artillery in the area in the

12 vicinity of the cemetery between September 1992 and August 1994?

13 A. Only on one occasion, after which that heavy weapon was removed

14 upon instructions from the French units that were just below the chapel of

15 the Jewish cemetery.

16 Q. When was the artillery removed, the anti-aircraft artillery?

17 A. It isn't artillery. It is an anti-aircraft machine-gun, and it

18 was removed the same day it was brought there. And this happened at the

19 beginning of 1994.

20 Q. During 1994 I suggest to you there was an armed conflict between

21 Aleksic and his troops on the one hand, and other Serb forces on the other

22 hand. Do you agree or disagree or say you don't know?

23 A. I disagree.

24 Q. Did you ever see forces from Serbia come to the vicinity of the

25 cemetery in 1994?

Page 16656

1 A. Those men who came were not soldiers.

2 Q. Are you aware that there was an incident at Markale market in

3 early February 1994, yes or no, involving allegedly the death of dozens of

4 people?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you say that it was before or after that date that UNPROFOR

7 personnel were positioned at the cemetery?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you mean after that date?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yesterday, when you were asked when they were positioned there,

12 you said January, February or March 1994. I take it you are not sure when

13 it was; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, after that event.

15 Q. Would it be fair to say you don't recollect how long it was after

16 that event, whether it was one month, two months or three months, or even

17 longer?

18 A. Very soon after that event.

19 Q. Do you say that those UNPROFOR forces maintained a 24-hour

20 observation post in the positions you marked on another map, I think four

21 positions altogether.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When did you first have contact with an investigator or lawyer

24 from the Defence team?

25 A. I think it was in June this year.

Page 16657

1 Q. Whenever it was that UNPROFOR observers were placed at the

2 cemetery, did it strike you as odd that such a small place, such a small

3 part of the confrontation line would warrant four separate teams of

4 observers?

5 A. I think that was logical.

6 Q. I suggest to you that the State Hospital was regularly shelled

7 with an anti-aircraft machine-gun, as you call it, between September 1992

8 and August 1994 from positions held by the Bosnian-Serb Army in the

9 vicinity of the Jewish cemetery. Do you agree, disagree or say you don't

10 know?

11 A. I disagree.

12 Q. I suggest to you that around the 23rd, 24th or 25th of September,

13 1992, a tank or large artillery gun fired on the State Hospital from the

14 vicinity of the Jewish cemetery. Do you agree, or disagree or say you

15 don't know?

16 A. I disagree because I see no reason why that would be done.

17 Q. Do you mean by that that you are not aware of any military use to

18 which the State Hospital was put in that period?

19 A. Yes. From what I know and what was accepted as a general rule,

20 the Military Hospital was abandoned in May 1992 and it was an empty

21 building. It was not occupied.

22 Q. Who told you that? Or what sources of information do you rely

23 upon for that point of view?

24 A. The Yugoslav People's Army left Sarajevo in the course of May

25 1992, and that facility as a Military Hospital was the ownership and a

Page 16658

1 part of the Yugoslav People's Army. And as they left with them went the

2 personnel of that hospital.

3 Q. Did your brigade, to your knowledge, have a platoon of snipers?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You told us yesterday that sniping screens were used in Grbavica

6 to obstruct views. Did the erection of those sniping screens reduce the

7 number of casualties of pedestrians, be they military or civilian?

8 A. To a high degree, it did reduce the number of victims.

9 Q. You also told us yesterday, as I understood it, that you gave a

10 copy of the report, the data on civilian deaths in part of Grbavica, to

11 UNPROFOR. Who did you give it to in UNPROFOR and when?

12 A. I didn't give the document to anyone, but I provided the

13 information and there was a discussion about those casualties, and this

14 could have been in the course of 1998 and 1999.

15 Q. Are you aware of that data ever being provided to anyone in the

16 public domain?

17 A. Not to the international community nor to the public of a part of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Republika Srpska. It was not provided to anyone

19 in the form of a document.

20 Q. Who was it in UNPROFOR that you gave information to from that

21 material in 1998 or 1999?

22 A. I said that one of my duties was cooperation with the

23 international community. So that people would contact me from the French

24 units, the Italian units --

25 Q. Sir, I will interrupt you, we don't have much time. You did say,

Page 16659

1 I provided the information and this could have been in the course of 1998

2 and 1999. Who did you give that information to?

3 A. UNPROFOR.

4 Q. Who in UNPROFOR?

5 A. The Italian units.

6 Q. What was the person's name?

7 A. I don't remember. I do know he was a general.

8 Q. Where was he stationed at the time that you gave this Italian

9 general the information? Was it at Butmir?

10 A. The exact location of the Italian units and those zones of

11 responsibility I am not sure of, but that gentleman came with an escort to

12 the municipality of Novo Sarajevo and was of great assistance to that

13 municipality.

14 Q. Do you know where that documentation is now?

15 A. Probably in the same place where it was until now.

16 Q. If required, would you be able to obtain it?

17 A. Since I provided that data yesterday, I will personally do my best

18 to obtain that document and make it -- put it at the disposal of both you

19 and this Court.

20 Q. You also told us yesterday that you saw the tank firing from Hum.

21 Were you looking at the tank with binoculars or not?

22 A. There is no need to use binoculars.

23 Q. What was it about the tank that indicated to you that it was

24 firing at that time? Was there smoke or a muzzle flash or what?

25 A. The shell it fired destroyed an apartment in the immediate

Page 16660

1 vicinity of the place where I was living with my family during the war.

2 Q. No. My question is: How do you know the shell came from that

3 tank? What was it about the tank that indicated it was responsible for

4 the firing? Specifically, could you see a muzzle flash?

5 A. I personally saw it.

6 Q. Did you see a muzzle flash?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President.

10 Q. Could you tell me whether you have heard these two names before:

11 Jozo Andzic or Ferdo Dejanovic?

12 A. Never.

13 Q. Have you heard before the name Papic in relation to someone

14 perhaps associated with Slavko Aleksic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was he?

17 A. A member of the Army of Republika Srpska.

18 Q. What was his rank?

19 A. As far as I know, he was a regular soldier. He was not a

20 professional soldier. He was just like me, like most of us.

21 Q. What was his relationship with Aleksic?

22 A. As anybody else's, ordinary, cooperation in preserving the front

23 lines.

24 Q. Where was he positioned in late 1993?

25 A. In late 1994, Papic --

Page 16661

1 Q. No, in late 1993.

2 A. Even in late 1993, Papic was not located anywhere as a soldier

3 because he had already been seriously injured.

4 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown again map D1811.

5 Q. Sir, would you please take the pointer and place it on the middle

6 of the three red circles.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. What is the street which is immediately south and indeed touching

9 the red circle?

10 A. It is Ozrenska Street.

11 Q. Would you please look carefully at the map. I appreciate the

12 contour lines are not especially visible, and they take some

13 concentration. Do you see on the map further south of the -- that same

14 red circle, according to the contour lines one indicating a height of, I

15 think, 600 metres? If so, would you please point to it.

16 A. [Indicates]

17 Q. Thank you for that. You are now tracing that contour. Will you

18 continue to trace that contour so that we can all see it.

19 A. [Indicates]

20 Q. Please continue, as far as you can.

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. All right. Now, to the right, that is in between the middle red

23 circle and the one on the far right, is there a hill with the elevation

24 marked of 623 metres?

25 A. [Indicates]

Page 16662

1 MR. IERACE: Thank you, the witness points to the number 623.

2 Q. As we move from that point towards the left, firstly, does that

3 point 623 indicate a high point on the ridge line?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you please move further along the ridge to the left, very

6 slowly, from 623.

7 A. [Indicates]

8 Q. And stopping when you next see -- when you see the next high

9 point.

10 A. [Indicates]

11 MR. IERACE: Witness now stops at a point where there is a figure.

12 Q. Would you please read out that figure?

13 A. 630.

14 Q. All right. Now, between that elevation of 630 and coming back to

15 623, is there another high point, one in between?

16 A. As far as I know of on the ground, the slopes decline and there is

17 a vale there, actually on the ground.

18 Q. As translated that reads "a vale." What do you mean by a vale?

19 A. It means that the slopes -- the slope goes down in the opposite

20 direction in relation to the town.

21 Q. The light green line to the best of your knowledge in the area of

22 Ozrenska Street, does that accurately depict the positions of the ABiH?

23 A. Though it is not possible to say with certainty, but I could

24 accept it as a correct indication.

25 Q. According to your understanding, therefore, would -- as of the

Page 16663

1 11th of January, 1994, would the distance between the light green line and

2 the line you drew yesterday be no-man's land?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't want to

7 bother anyone, but I will need a few minutes for questions of translation

8 and also the cross-examination of Mr. Ierace will require some

9 re-examination on our part. So I think he has exceeded his time limit.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think that, unless it is for a

11 break, I have been very often relatively liberal, even when I said five or

12 seven minutes, it sometimes turns out to be nine or ten. And I think that

13 I am perfectly able to do that myself. But, nevertheless, thank you for

14 your assistance. I know that you need a couple of minutes. Mr. Ierace,

15 apart from that, I was in the course of reminding you that the 20 minutes

16 have elapsed.

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'll only be another few minutes, I

18 should think just a couple.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But just within three minutes.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you. Might I just check the last question.

21 Q. All right. Now, I suggest to you that the various positions

22 indicated by red dots on this map with the exception of number 15 were

23 visible from positions held by the Bosnian-Serb Army along this ridge. Do

24 you agree, do you disagree or do you say that you don't know?

25 A. First of all, the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska were

Page 16664

1 not in these two circles.

2 Q. I am not asking you about the two circles. If you could listen

3 carefully to the question.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

5 the witness wanted to answer and I think it is important that he be

6 allowed to answer. He was familiar with the terrain and he should be

7 allowed to answer and I also think that Mr. Ierace spoke rather loudly,

8 raised his voice.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, it would have been sufficient to

10 say, "Mr. President, would you allow the witness to answer?"

11 On my screen I see that the answer given was -- you were asked

12 about the positions held by Bosnian-Serb Army along the ridge and you

13 said: "First of all, the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska were

14 not in these two circles."

15 Did you want to add anything to that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The separation or rather no-man's

19 land between the two warring parties was not as small here because in that

20 case the existence of the line itself would be called in question. As it

21 is a ridge, it would not be logical, below the ridge to have the Army of

22 Republika Srpska and in their immediate vicinity on flat ground or

23 slightly below them to have the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So I am

24 claiming that the Army of Republika Srpska had positions on the other side

25 of the hill or the ridge because that is also logical from the military

Page 16665

1 standpoint.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are not talking about logics, but we are

3 talking about facts. Sometimes facts are illogical. Please proceed,

4 Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Sir, I would now like you to answer the question I asked you: Do

7 you agree or disagree or say you don't know that those various red points

8 except for 15 were visible from positions of the Bosnian-Serb Army in the

9 area of Ozrenska Street?

10 A. Points 7, 10 and 27 were certainly not visible. As for 20, I am

11 not quite sure about it.

12 MR. IERACE: Nothing further, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. For the parties --

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: There will be some questions from the Bench as well.

16 So if the parties could please proceed as efficient as possible.

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is there any need to cross-examine -- to re-examine the

18 witness?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I will do

20 my best to comply with your advice.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, a moment ago you mentioned the existence

23 of so-called incendiary bullets. Do you remember that, at least that is

24 what we have in the transcript.

25 A. Yes.

Page 16666

1 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know what is the difference between

2 so-called incendiary bullets and so-called tracer bullets?

3 A. In principle, the difference is small.

4 Q. Very well. I'd like to go back to your statement a moment ago

5 with regard to the destruction of an apartment that was close to yours at

6 the time. Do you remember that; yes or no?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. How did you know that that apartment was targeted by

9 tank fire?

10 A. I don't think that it was a target at all. It was simply as the

11 President said, it was a fact; it wasn't logic.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'd like to go back now to these exchanges of

13 fire between the Tito Barracks and the building that you indicated as

14 being dark and a high-rise building. To make things quite clear, can you

15 give us an idea of the date when these exchanges of fire occurred, please?

16 A. This was in any event at the end of April or the beginning of May.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you told us --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the witness was referring to 1992,

19 yes? Yes. Please proceed.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, you spoke to us about these high-rise building as being

22 typical for fighting in built-up areas where snipers would position

23 themselves. Do you remember that?

24 A. With respect to these two buildings --

25 Q. No, in principle, please give me an answer in principle.

Page 16667

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I object. That was an issue which

2 came up in examination-in-chief the use of high-rise buildings as source

3 of sniping fire, not cross-examination.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, but I am going to

5 rephrase and move on to another topic.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's not the same, but please proceed.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

8 Q. They spoke to you about the State Hospital. Was that a high-rise

9 building?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, you stated a moment ago during the cross-examination that

12 it was abandoned by its previous occupants, do you remember that, yes or

13 no?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. During the events that followed the depart of the

16 previous occupants, was that building reused for any purpose whatsoever;

17 yes or no?

18 MR. IERACE: Mr. President --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

20 MR. IERACE: -- I am sorry.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Mr. Ierace.

22 MR. IERACE: The witness has given clear evidence in

23 cross-examination about the purpose of that building and its nonpurposes

24 during the war. In view of that answer, this question has no relevance.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the -- your question

Page 16668

1 suggests something that contradicts the evidence of the witness.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think there

3 is a difference between occupying and using. I think that the witness --

4 may I ask the question?

5 JUDGE ORIE: First, look at what exactly the witness testified.

6 And may I ask the usher to ask the witness to leave the courtroom for one

7 second.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think, if I

10 remember correctly, "nobody" was mentioned.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think it was mentioned that the building was

12 empty. But let's just have a look. It is page 76, I think. Yes, line

13 19. "From what I know and what was accepted as a general rule, the

14 Military Hospital was abandoned in May 1992 and it was an empty building,

15 it was not occupied."

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the previous question and answer are

17 also directly relevant.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that there was no -- "do you mean by that that

19 you are not aware of any military use to which the State Hospital was put

20 in that period?" And the period was a few questions before was between

21 September 1992 and August 1994. The evidence of the witness is perfectly

22 clear that it was an empty building during that period, that there was no

23 use to attack it. He did not limit it in time in whatever way and you are

24 now suggesting in your question that it was re-used during this period of

25 time, unless you are referring do a period of time after the time relevant

Page 16669

1 of indictment and then, of course, the question of relevance comes up.

2 Could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed, keep in mind the guidance we

4 just gave you.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Witness, bearing in mind the answer that you gave with regard to

8 the State Hospital, what we call the State Hospital, do you know, even if

9 this is just occasional, do you know if this site could have occasionally

10 been used --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in my respectful submission, that is

13 blatantly contradictory to the ruling you just gave.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]...

17 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will conclude. I will move

19 on to another subject. I want to say how I wanted to formulate the

20 question. This had to do with other things than what it was used for

21 before. So being interrupted before I even finished my question, I just

22 wanted to say what my question would have been and I think it would have

23 been acceptable if it had been formulated in this manner. May I?

24 JUDGE ORIE: You may put questions to the witness. You may not

25 explain how you would have formulated the question if there would have

Page 16670

1 been no objection. Put questions to the witness, please do so.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will put the question again.

3 Q. Do you know whether any given moment in time during the events

4 this building could have been used in any manner even if it had been in a

5 punctual manner by anyone.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will withdraw that question

7 to save time. I will withdraw that question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Do you remember the building, the tower of the Executive Council

11 that was allegedly shelled; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In order to save time, we will work on the basis of our memory.

14 But it is true to say that the lower part of that building appeared to

15 have been less damaged than the higher parts?

16 MR. IERACE: I object.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

18 MR. IERACE: The issue of damage to the building arose in

19 examination-in-chief. There was nothing in cross-examination which

20 related to there being more damage to the top, less damage to the bottom.

21 This is a fresh issue in that sense, otherwise it relates to evidence in

22 chief.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will explain

25 why. But the witness should leave --

Page 16671

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... And would the

2 parties, please, it is the last 10 minutes of this week. I urged both

3 parties not to intervene. It takes more time to have these discussions

4 rather than to proceed. So the question to you was, Mr. DP16, whether the

5 lower part of the building just mentioned appeared to have been less

6 damaged than the higher parts or perhaps the other way around, if we put

7 the question in a nonleading way. Which part, the higher part or the

8 lower part would be more damaged, if there was any difference?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The floors in the lower part were

10 less damaged.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

13 Q. Why, very briefly?

14 A. Visibility. The visibility of the first few floors, because the

15 first floors were not that visible.

16 Q. From the town or from the hill?

17 A. In general, from any position.

18 Q. Thank you. A minute ago you spoke about the year 1993 as being a

19 little calmer as far as the fighting is concerned. Can you tell us what

20 you mean when you say this.

21 A. Well, the intensity of the exchanges of fire and the intensity of

22 the fighting, whatever its form, was not as great in comparison to 1992

23 and 1994.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, a minute ago you expressed your

25 position with regard to the chapel. You drew the line of sight. Was the

Page 16672

1 chapel an obstacle; yes or no? Was it an obstacle from your position with

2 regards to the incidents that you saw in the map?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know this is leading,

4 Mr. President. This is in order to save time. We have all used this map.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, a minute ago in exhibit 37795 [as

8 interpreted] you saw the existence of a garage. My question is as

9 follows: The Prosecution made you mark one or two impacts in the course

10 of combat. Do you know, given the type of construction concerned, the

11 type of construction that you saw in this image, do you know whether this

12 building could have been easily destroyed, and I am referring to the

13 garage, by any kind of weapon that the side had at the time of the

14 conflict; yes or no?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please try to conclude

18 because you needed a few more questions. The Chamber -- the Bench has

19 some questions as well. You need some time for translation. The Chamber

20 has some questions as well. It is Friday and we would like to conclude

21 with this witness.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I know. I will forget about

23 the translation and continue with the questions. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, you spoke about a photograph and you mentioned the

25 existence of a wall which had been partially destroyed along the tram

Page 16673

1 track. Do you remember speaking about this?

2 A. Well, in fact it is not along the tram station -- well, yes, in

3 fact, yes, but more to the south.

4 Q. Yes or no?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. IERACE: That wasn't the evidence of the witness. It was

7 given in chief and it was not that the wall was along the tram track.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, it is -- I think that's what the witness

9 corrected already. We are talking about the same wall you indicated

10 before. Your question would be, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly. The question

12 is:

13 Q. Were there also trees? Do you know anything about this? Were

14 there any trees that were in that area?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I am going to now ask my last question very quickly.

17 A minute ago you spoke about when the Prosecution put questions to you,

18 you spoke about the Mujahedin and about holy war, do you remember speaking

19 about this?

20 A. Yes

21 MR. IERACE: I don't remember the mention of a holy war.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has not -- it was not in translation,

23 holy war, but I think it was translated as -- perhaps you could assist me.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness spoke about a

25 jihad, I think. I think that this is what I heard.

Page 16674

1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Use the words

2 he had. Yes. It was not translated as "holy war" as far as I remember,

3 but...

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Q. Witness, since you used the word "jihad" with regard to the

6 Mujahedin. My question is, what do you know about the jihad since you

7 spoke about this, in a couple of words?

8 A. Well, that is what is translated as a holy war.

9 Q. Very well. Sir, there was a religious dimension in this, and my

10 question is as follows: Since you spoke about Chetniks a lot, was there a

11 religious elements when the term "Chetnik" is used? Is there a religious

12 element in it; yes or no?

13 A. As far as I know, no.

14 Q. Thank you very much. And finally this may be leading, but with

15 your permission, have you ever heard about -- can I ask you --

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Can I ask this question with

17 your permission? It has to do with the Mujahedin.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what your question will be --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, I am aware of the

20 time. No further questions. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. The Judges might have some questions

22 for you as well. First Judge Nieto-Navia has a question.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President, I am going to read a

25 question and an answer and after that I will ask you something. The

Page 16675

1 question was, we were talking about the State Hospital: "Do you know by

2 that that you are not aware of any military use to which the State

3 Hospital was put in that period?" And the answer was: "Yes, from what I

4 know and what was accepted as a general rule, the Military Hospital was

5 abandoned in May 1992, and it was an empty building. It was not

6 occupied."

7 That was your answer, according to the English transcript. My

8 question is whether your answer is applicable to the whole period between

9 August 1992 and September 1994?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No more questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has a question for you.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 [Interpretation] I know that we are running out of time, but I

15 have two brief questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: First we will ask the interpreters whether we could

17 finish it? It might take some perhaps 10 minutes, but then I hope we will

18 be ready. Is that agreeable?

19 THE INTERPRETER: It is no problem, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your kind cooperation.

21 Please proceed.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My

23 first question is as follows: It concerns the weapons of the unit

24 commanded by Mr. Aleksic. Were these weapons the same ones as those that

25 other battalions and regiments had or did they have different weapons?

Page 16676

1 A. Slavko Aleksic's unit was in one battalion like the other

2 companies, and we had the same weapons.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So it was a unit like the others?

4 It just had a name?

5 A. Absolutely, that's correct.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My second question has to do with

7 the height of your positions to the west of the Jewish cemetery. You were

8 stationed there, you marked your positions on a map, and you were asked as

9 follows: Were your positions higher than 40 metres, were they at an

10 altitude which was 40 metres higher than the altitude of the chapel and

11 your answer was no. Does that mean that your positions, your own

12 positions or, that is to say, the Serb positions and those are the

13 positions concerned and what is the altitude concerned?

14 A. That answer meant that my position was lower down, but not the

15 other positions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but if I have understood you

17 correctly, the layout of the terrain went upwards and there were two

18 companies of yours at altitudes which were higher than the altitude that

19 you were at?

20 A. My company, which was the 3rd company, as I said, was in that

21 position and it had several trenches which were at a higher altitude than

22 the altitude of my trench. So, one company had several positions.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you perhaps give the

24 altitude in metres? How many metres higher up was it in relation to the

25 chapel, approximately?

Page 16677

1 A. My position wasn't more than 5 metres above the chapel at the

2 Jewish cemetery.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, and the other positions of

4 the other positions which were at a higher altitude?

5 A. One position was on a level with the chapel and two positions were

6 higher than my position and the position of the chapel. Perhaps by 10 or

7 15 metres.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Sir, my last question

9 concerns -- Defence asked you a question, they asked whether from your

10 position you were able to see the points marked on the map, if you

11 remember, number 7, 10 and 27, et cetera, and you said that from point 27,

12 if I am not mistaken, there was no view, it wasn't possible. Did you want

13 to say from your position you yourself or your position, were you speaking

14 in the name of -- on behalf of the troops of the army, were you speaking

15 on behalf of the Serb army?

16 A. The loophole was directed in such a way that those points couldn't

17 be seen from any position.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP16, I've got a few questions for you as well.

20 You yesterday told us that you were informed about the Holiday Inn being

21 used by snipers. You got this information from those who came to

22 the -- to your side. When did they come and when did they tell you?

23 A. Throughout the war people from Sarajevo of Serbian and Croatian

24 nationality, moved to Grbavica, some stayed in the territory of Grbavica

25 and some went to other parts of the world of their own free will.

Page 16678

1 JUDGE ORIE: Did they tell you how they knew that sniping was

2 originating from the Holiday Inn?

3 A. They saw that personally because they also had a form of a work

4 obligation. They had to move around the town in spite of the possibility

5 of military activity.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So they observed it from outside the building rather

7 than from inside the building; is that understanding of your answer

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next question relates to the map number

11 D -- I think it is the map of 18 and 20.

12 THE REGISTRAR: D1810.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I have got a different number.

14 THE REGISTRAR: D1811.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is the one. We should have been more

16 precise. When did you for the first time see this map?

17 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't have an image. I don't know

18 if anyone else has an image.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It says "no signal."

20 But perhaps you could already answer that first question, when did

21 you for the first time see that map?

22 A. When I came here.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have told us before that your positions

24 were near the Jewish cemetery. You pointed to that on another map. Were

25 you able to travel more to the west? Did you ever go in that direction

Page 16679

1 during the war?

2 A. Yes, of course. There were the families of all people who lived

3 in Grbavica usually, and they were in Grbavica, so it was possible.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please indicate how you travelled to the

5 west on this map, if the streets appear when you -- or didn't you go that

6 far? Please point at the route you would take to where your family would

7 be. It is not necessary to indicate exactly where your family was

8 but -- yes.

9 A. Well, you can't see where the family was, but from this position

10 and going down this street, it was possible to move in a normal manner.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please start at the first red point again

12 and tell us what route you took.

13 A. [Indicates]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you started there.

15 A. You go down this road, the Moravska road and the military line was

16 here but I was able to move around in this part.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We understand that you were able to move around also

18 at the other side of the military line you have drawn.

19 A. I don't understand.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You just told me I thought that -- could you please

21 indicate -- put the pointer again at the point where you said that the

22 military line was -- no, where the military line was. It was after you

23 passed --

24 A. [Indicates]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then you continue. Yes, and now you come

Page 16680

1 there at a -- yes. Near to the second red circle there is more or less

2 a -- yes, could you please keep your pointer there.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 JUDGE ORIE: That is in my view, the third one, the middle one.

5 The middle of the three.

6 A. [Indicates]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there. There seems to be something like a fork,

8 as you understand what I mean, that is two roads coming together where you

9 said that you take the southerly one. What at that fork, at that junction

10 of roads, what is the name of the streets there? What would be the name

11 of the street that continues to the elevation point you just indicated by

12 623?

13 A. Ozrenska Street.

14 JUDGE ORIE: And you would, as you just indicated, you would

15 follow the road where it is partially Ozrenska Street and then you would

16 take the more southern part of it again; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: There is a cross of what you have drawn as the lines

19 held by the VRS Army; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. Did you also take the

22 northern road? Could you please again point with your pointer to the

23 middle red circle. There you see you just moved to the west and taking

24 this southern road. The road that is slightly up north and goes in

25 approximately the same western direction, did you ever take that road?

Page 16681

1 A. Not during the war.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please follow that road, although I do

3 understand that you never went there, and stop at the next circle.

4 A. [Indicates]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there. Would you have ever been where that

6 circle is?

7 A. Not during the war.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you could not see all kind of places

9 in the city from these red points. Is my understanding correct that you

10 never went there during the war?

11 A. I went there during the war, yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: At the point you just pointing at, at this very

13 moment, that red circle?

14 A. No. To this location, but not to these places in the course of

15 the war. In the course of the war, these places were no-man's land. And

16 it wouldn't have been logical. No.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So you didn't go there during the war. You didn't go

18 there any more after the war; is that my correct understanding?

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then I have another question for you:

21 You were asked about the -- whether Mr. Aleksic had a criminal record and

22 you responded by saying I am not a policeman, that you had no knowledge

23 about the criminal record, if there was any of Mr. Aleksic. And you said

24 I think, that he had never -- he was never proceeded against.

25 Then, as far as the other members of the unit commanded by

Page 16682

1 Mr. Aleksic was concerned, you said that these other members certainly

2 would have no criminal records. Could you explain to me why you would not

3 know, as explained to you not being a policeman, know about the criminal

4 record of your neighbour where you would have precise knowledge of all the

5 other members of the unit, whether they had criminal records?

6 A. Slavko Aleksic -- the others -- the other members of

7 Slavko Aleksic's unit, like Slavko Aleksic, they were my neighbours, and

8 some of them were my friends, close friends, too. So according to my

9 personal information, none of them had a police record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of any kind.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me an idea of how many foreigners

13 there were in that unit and how many locals, approximately?

14 A. 80 per cent were locals.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And the total unit was how strong?

16 A. About 100 people.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So your testimony is, whether I understand you

18 correctly, that of these 80 locals you are certain that they had no

19 criminal records?

20 A. I can say that I am sure, but maybe there is one or two that I

21 don't know about.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever investigate that or is it just on that

23 you never heard of criminal records of these people?

24 A. The street I lived in is a relatively short street, and there are

25 about 50 houses in the street. Most of the people lived in that small

Page 16683

1 area, and that is something that would have been known for sure.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your answers. This

3 concludes your evidence in this court. I thank you very much for having

4 come the far way from where you live and for having answered questions of

5 all the parties and of the Bench. I wish that you have a safe trip home

6 again.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Next Monday we will not be sitting. Next Tuesday we

11 will sit in the afternoon on from a quarter past 2.00 and I think the

12 first thing we then should do is to hear further information as to the

13 maps. But I would like to limit that in time, that I think 15 minutes

14 should be enough for both.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: I would spend 15 minutes for both parties on the

17 maps. So if you are preparing any information, make it as concise as

18 possible so that the Chamber is informed and that it does not make

19 unnecessary time. We will adjourn until next Tuesday quarter past 2.00,

20 same courtroom.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

22 2.06 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

23 the 3rd day of December, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

24

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