Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 16684

1 Tuesday, 3 December 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom and

6 those assisting us just outside the courtroom. Madam Registrar, would

7 you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar, I think the first thing

11 we have to do is to deal with the documents tendered during the testimony

12 given by Witness DP16. Could you please guide us, Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1808, under seal, pseudonym sheet;

14 Exhibit D1809, map of Sarajevo marked by witness; D1810, map; Exhibit

15 D1811, map sniping incident 20 marked by witness; Exhibit D334,

16 photograph of various buildings; D339, photograph of Sarajevo.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Since I do not hear any objections, the documents

18 are admitted into evidence. D1808, under seal. I told the parties that

19 the Chamber would give them an opportunity to briefly discuss the matter

20 of the -- the matter of the maps.

21 Mr. Ierace, I think we put some questions to you and I take it

22 that you will further inform the Chamber about it.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. I have some copies

24 of some maps to hand up and to distribute.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Do the Defence have a copy of these maps already,

Page 16685

1 Mr. Ierace?

2 MR. IERACE: I don't think so. Mr. President, firstly in

3 relation --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.

5 I didn't want to start by interrupting Mr. Ierace, but for the sake of

6 courtesy, General Galic should also have a copy as well as the Defence.

7 We only have one copy of this. Would my learned colleague, Mr. Ierace,

8 be able to provide us with a second copy so that the General can follow

9 the matter we are dealing with. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, firstly in relation to some specific

13 questions posed last week, I understand that the map is -- was prepared

14 in 1997, that is the map data which appears on it. That's only an

15 approximate time, approximately 1997, it is the 7th edition of a U.S. --

16 United States military map. There was a question also asked in relation

17 to buildings and I said that buildings -- last week I said that buildings

18 are taken into account in terms of lines of sight. I have been informed

19 that that applies only to very large buildings such as the medical

20 facility which was relevant to incident, I think it was incident 14.

21 That is in Kobilja Glava, in any event. That was a very large building.

22 Mr. President, the bundle of maps which has been handed up I will

23 now go through one at a time. If I could perhaps commence with map 2. I

24 have numbered the maps in the top right-hand corner. This is similar to

25 the map which I handed up last week, that map being map number one. You

Page 16686

1 will note that added to it are two graphs. Those graphs I think should

2 be self-explanatory. The blue line on the graph indicates the changes in

3 elevation between on the left-hand side the suspected source of fire, and

4 on the right-hand side the position of the alleged victim. So by

5 consulting the height figures on the left axis, that is the vertical

6 axis, and the distance figures on the horizontal axis, one then has an

7 elevation, that is a side view of the height differences. One has to

8 factor in the height above ground level at which the shot is fired, and

9 the height of bullet entry of the victim. And in this particular case

10 the height of fire of the trajectory, that is, how high above the ground

11 the bullet was assumed to have commenced its path, is around 1 and a half

12 metres, and the entry point is around a metre, something of that order.

13 Turning to map number 3, one sees a further advantage of this

14 software. Map 3 is a three-dimensional depiction of the topography for

15 incidents 3 and 8. The positions of the victims are indicated by blue

16 dots. The area of the suspected source of fire is indicated by a large

17 red area. Last week the Defence pointed out that the map which was

18 provided to them in our meeting earlier in the week showed a different

19 depiction of what could be seen from the suspected source of fire along

20 the line of fire from the map which is now number 1 and which I showed to

21 the Trial Chamber last week. This map, number 3, explains why. If one

22 assumes that the person who fired the round was positioned on the edge of

23 that red area immediately above the escarpment, then clearly, as one can

24 see from this picture, the person firing the round would have a much

25 clearer view of the area immediately beneath him or her, whereas if the

Page 16687

1 shooter was positioned towards the rear, that is more on the ridge and to

2 the back of the area of the red circle, then from that position the

3 person firing the round would lose sight of the ground immediately at the

4 bottom of the escarpment.

5 So this software is sufficiently sensitive to pick up those minor

6 discrepancies. Turning to map number 4, one has the view that the

7 shooter would have had of the areas where the two victims were at the

8 time that were shot indicated by the blue dots.

9 Map number 5 is also a topographical view, but this time the view

10 indicated in the picture is above and behind the position of the alleged

11 sniper.

12 Map number 6 is a detail of the topography showing the red area

13 and the two blue dots indicating the positions of the alleged victims.

14 The software enables the degree of shade to be adjusted so that the

15 features of the topography are more or if one wishes less apparent in the

16 maps.

17 Mr. President, given the problems that we have had, it seems to

18 me that an appropriate usage of the software at this stage of the trial

19 would be to provide, that is to tender, a second set of sniping and

20 shelling scheduled incident maps without the front lines, the

21 confrontation lines being depicted at all. The advantage of that second

22 set would be to enable anyone to take precise measurements of distances

23 between any two points which appeared on the maps.

24 The relevance of the -- me pointing out the capability of the

25 software, in particular its ability to project a three-dimensional image,

Page 16688

1 is essentially to disclose the possession now by the OTP of that

2 software. I don't propose to use that technology at this stage, but we

3 reserve our right to seek to tender such maps, three-dimensional maps, in

4 case in reply pursuant to the usual provisos to the Prosecution being able

5 to call evidence in reply.

6 Mr. President, if the Trial Chamber is minded to accept into

7 evidence these maps, and one alternative is simply that the Prosecution

8 tender them as soon as they are prepared. An alternative is at least to

9 have them marked for identification at this stage and then formally

10 tendered in case in reply. Thank you.

11 Excuse me, Mr. President. Yes, that completes my submission on

12 the maps.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Ierace. Do I understand you well

14 that you say I explained to the Chamber what are the capabilities of this

15 software, but that at this very moment the Prosecution would just provide

16 maps without confrontation lines similar as the maps we used earlier, but

17 then not with the difference in longitudinal and what's the other -- so

18 that we have -- latitudinal. So that there is no difference in

19 longitudinal and latitudinal measurement, that's so that we are better

20 able to use these maps to measure distances because there is no distorted

21 view any more on the ground covered by the map.

22 MR. IERACE: Precisely, Mr. President. But if the Trial Chamber

23 wished the Prosecution --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that.

25 MR. IERACE: -- to tender further material or further maps with

Page 16689

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16690

1 the topography, then of course we would be open to doing that. Thank

2 you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a clear description of this software

4 available? So if it would ever come at a later stage to tendering the --

5 these maps if the Prosecution would like to do so, that's at least the

6 Defence and perhaps also the Chamber, apart from perhaps hearing

7 testimony on how it works might have also a description of the software

8 and so that we can see how it works and what kind of instructions are

9 given to the computers in order to --

10 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I anticipate that we will be in

11 a position to call evidence of that nature and evidence as to the

12 application of the information which pertains to the trial to the

13 software in order to produce the maps. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Chamber would invite

15 you to respond, but I think at this very moment what is at stake is,

16 first of all, an explanation of software which is not tendered. So

17 whether it is true or not, and whether the software is really capable of

18 doing it, I think we will discuss that when maps are produced by the

19 special features of the software are used, and we limit now ourself to

20 the production of the single maps could be also a software problem. But

21 I would not, for example, at this moment discuss anything about the

22 height of where the person is who might have fired. Because at this

23 moment the Prosecution is not intending to tender that. So I would limit

24 the discussion to what the Prosecution wants to put on the table at this

25 very moment. Please proceed.

Page 16691

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you very

2 much. First of all, I have been perturbed by the clarity. Because of

3 the Prosecution statement I have managed to turn my computer off, but

4 with regard to the essential matters, Mr. President, I am surprised, I am

5 very surprised. I don't know if anyone has been able to understand

6 anything of this explanation, but what the Defence wants to say is that

7 this software has been on the market since 1997. So before Mr. Galic was

8 arrested. In accordance with article 90(H) the Prosecution should have

9 provided this information which it didn't do. What I want to say is that

10 the Prosecution should have disclosed this information to us, if they had

11 wanted to do so. And finally, it was impossible for us to cross-examine

12 on the basis of these documents because they weren't provided to us at

13 the time.

14 Now that the Defence seems to have proved certain points, the

15 Prosecution has remembered that this fantastic software exists and

16 intends to use it to its own benefit. Our position, the Defence's

17 position is very clear. This does not seem acceptable to us. The

18 Prosecution should have done this before so that we could have taken

19 advantage of this when the Prosecution's case was being presented and not

20 now. All the more so, in the -- many of our witnesses have already been

21 heard and we will not be able to provide them with these documents, if

22 they are acceptable. And the Defence doesn't think that they will be.

23 Thank you. In addition, Mr. President, one of the Judges from your

24 Chamber asked for more details. We could provide them now, the map C2

25 comes from the geographical military institute in Belgrade. It is 1982

Page 16692

1 edition.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And it is the staff map. It

4 is the staff map for the English booth. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your information,

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. One final question: If the Defence would ever --

7 would like to use the facilities of the software, would it be made

8 available in one way or another? I can imagine that there are -- there

9 might be problems as to the license agreements, but perhaps a solution

10 could be found for that in one way or the other.

11 MR. IERACE: Certainly.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Would the facilities, apart from this problem, be

13 available for the Defence if they would have certain wishes?

14 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. There is a license involved,

15 but I am sure that we can work within the legal requirements of the

16 license to produce maps required by the Defence with the software.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't know

19 how many computer technologists the Prosecution has, but we don't have

20 any. Unfortunately we are only attorneys and I've -- I don't have much

21 competence in this area. I can't work as a technician with this

22 software, which is beyond me, I have to admit it. Even though I am not

23 familiar with this software yet. We will never be able to do this.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No. Of course the same is true for the Chamber, I

Page 16693

1 think, but I do understand that the Defence feels handicapped by not

2 having the same expertise at hand in this respect. Then, Ms. Pilipovic,

3 I see that you are on your feet.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, Your Honour,

5 with your permission. I would just like to ask a question to clarify the

6 matter. I'd like to know whether we will be working on the 11th of

7 December because Defence counsel has to organise itself for the sake of

8 the witness. We would also like to have the Trial Chamber with regard to

9 our submission for a change in the list. The submission was filed on the

10 29th of November. I am only putting these two questions to you now, but

11 we could discuss this at a later stage. I would just like to know what

12 the schedule is.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as I understand is that we will not be

14 able to sit on the 11th. So but I'll give you final confirmation of

15 that. Yes, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, does that mean that we are only

17 sitting Monday and Tuesday next week at this stage

18 JUDGE ORIE: That would mean if Wednesday is the 11th and I think

19 it is, then it would mean that we would only be sitting on Monday and

20 Tuesday. Yes.

21 MR. IERACE: Not on Friday?

22 JUDGE ORIE: No, not on Friday.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, a couple of matters, if I may.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps I first -- you asked for a change,

25 Ms. Pilipovic in a request of the 29th of November. That was -- could

Page 16694

1 you be a bit more detailed as you said a change you requested on the 29th

2 of November, a change in the calling order of witnesses or...

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your order, the Trial Chamber's

4 decision to authorise us to change two witnesses on the list that we

5 submitted to the Trial Chamber. Instead of those two witnesses who are

6 on the list, we would like your permission to have other witnesses in

7 their place. They would be scheduled for the same time and it would have

8 to do with the same circumstances.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has the Prosecution is aware of what change

10 you propose, Ms. Pilipovic?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Perhaps my

12 colleague hasn't had the opportunity of having a look at the submission.

13 That's why I said that we could talk about this, we could discuss this

14 submission later on.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the Prosecution would have an opinion on

16 the request, please inform the Chamber. If you would prefer to respond

17 later today, then --

18 MR. IERACE: I am happy to do it now, Mr. President. But the

19 English transcript indicates that my learned colleague referred to two

20 witnesses. The submission we have received dated the 29th of November

21 refers to the addition of four witnesses. So perhaps we could just

22 clarify that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see on the 29th the --

24 MR. IERACE: And the deletion of none.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, did you give -- you gave a list of four

Page 16695

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16696

1 witnesses on the -- in the -- and on the 28th of October you gave names

2 of prospective Defence witnesses. Could you please explain. You said

3 two witnesses. That's not quite clear to me, Ms. Pilipovic. But I might

4 not have prepared myself properly for this issue.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the submission in

6 which we requested that two witnesses be heard and now four in this

7 submission is within the time frame that we have. But all four witnesses

8 said that they wanted to come to testify and Defence counsel would like

9 all four witnesses to be heard.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So two witnesses are added to your list?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And since your list took all the time granted to

13 you, is there any other witnesses that will not appear? Because you have

14 to stay within your time limits. So is there any other witnesses that

15 will then not be called? I know that some were not called and perhaps we

16 should make an inventory one of these days to see --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... time. Is

19 there as such, I am not talking about the total time involved, but

20 is there as such any objection against having two names added to the

21 witness list, Mr. Ierace?

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. There is no explanation in the

23 motion as to why the Defence should be permitted to add witnesses to

24 their witness list at this stage. When a similar situation arose in the

25 Prosecution case, we had to demonstrate why we had not included those

Page 16697

1 witnesses in the initial list. That's the first objection. The second

2 objection is that the statement of facts to which the four witnesses will

3 testify which is contained in paragraph 3 of the motion is inadequate. It

4 is what could be described as a broad brush reference to be applied

5 apparently to the whole four of them and gives no clear insight into what

6 it is that these witnesses are expected to say. That is relevant to the

7 issue of whether leave should be granted to the Defence to call the

8 witnesses. It is not at all clear, for instance, whether their

9 evidence will be repetitive of the evidence expected of other witnesses.

10 Thank you. Or I might add, Mr. President, of each other, since it applies

11 to the whole four of them.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all,

14 perhaps the Prosecution has only partially read this document that has

15 been submitted in English. At the end of point 3 we indicated clearly

16 that the other more enlarged information will be given to the Prosecution

17 as soon as possible. That is one point. The second point is that what

18 has been described here is largely sufficient. It is certainly very

19 clear so that everyone can understand what this is about. It is about

20 the relationship between the opposing parties and the UNPROFOR as well as

21 about the problem of civilians who were in the middle -- who were in the

22 middle of all this, who are the most important. Rather than to complicate

23 matters I believe that this is sufficiently clear, but otherwise other

24 points they will be brought to the Prosecution. Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you say broader summaries will submit after it

Page 16698

1 established who of the above mentioned witnesses are available to

2 testify. I have not clearly in my mind how broad these summaries are at

3 this very moment. Of course, apart from what I read in paragraph 3,

4 there are other summaries provided apart from what we read in paragraph

5 3?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, more substantive

7 information has not been submitted. I just want to clarify that these

8 four new witnesses whose names we put in this submission, they are able

9 to come before this Chamber as of the 8th of January. One of the reasons

10 why we have asked for the change in the calling order of witnesses and

11 for the new four witnesses, the reason is that two witnesses from this

12 battalion that we had put on the list are unable to come on the 8th of

13 January. And speaking to other witnesses, these four witnesses said that

14 they would be able to come to the Tribunal and be heard on the 8th of

15 January. That's the reason why in this submission we first asked for

16 permission to put them on the list, and then if that is confirmed, we can

17 give much more substantive information about what they are going to be

18 testifying about and what their reasons so they would come to the

19 Tribunal on the 8th of January. We have brought up the problem about the

20 impossibility of the Defence to bring witnesses on the 8th of January

21 because it is a holiday, but these witnesses have confirmed that they are

22 able to attend on the 8th of January. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I first try to identify what the problems are we

24 are facing at this very moment. The first issue is that two witnesses

25 who cannot come to testify be replaced by similar witnesses who could

Page 16699

1 testify, then, I take it on the same subjects, because they were in a

2 similar position. That's the first issue. So witnesses being replaced

3 by other witnesses because of the unavailability.

4 The second issue is the addition of two witnesses to the list.

5 That's a different matter. The mere fact that additional witnesses are

6 available on the 8th of January is as such not a sufficient ground to add

7 them to the list of witnesses. When the Prosecution wanted to add

8 witnesses to their lists, then we asked for specific reasons why it was

9 necessary to hear additional witnesses, why they were not on the list

10 before. And since you now put four witnesses on the list, I think the

11 Chamber, but I will give you a final answer to that, but the Chamber

12 might ask you for additional information. And since I do understand

13 until now that the summary of what they will testify about gives

14 approximately a similar subject matter to testify upon, the question put

15 by Mr. Ierace whether this would result in repetitive evidence should be

16 answered as well by the Chamber.

17 So after the break I will tell you in what detail the Chamber or

18 at least today or tomorrow morning whether and in what detail the Chamber

19 wants to receive additional information. And please keep in mind that

20 these are two different things, replacing one witness by another or to

21 add witnesses on the list.

22 Then, is there any other issue?

23 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Firstly, now that I better

24 understand the application, I have no objection to two of the witnesses

25 being swapped. I maintain my objection to an additional two witnesses

Page 16700

1 being called. In other words, two of that list of four is not objected

2 to by the Prosecution, but not four witnesses to be called.

3 Mr. President, the Prosecution is unclear as to which witnesses

4 the Defence proposes to call this week. We have not received the running

5 list that we expected. I understand that DP51 is to be recalled

6 tomorrow. I am not sure who is to be called today or who is to be called

7 after today's witness and tomorrow's witness. It would be of assistance

8 if we could have that clarified. We have some timetable difficulties on

9 the Prosecution side. And secondly, whichever witness it is today, I

10 would be grateful if the Trial Chamber could indicate whether its

11 intention is to suspend that witness's evidence tomorrow morning to

12 enable DP51 to be recalled. The reason I would be grateful to know that

13 is that it impacts on which counsel will take today's witness because of

14 some problems later in the week with attendance. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, is the Chamber well informed

16 that the Defence intends to called today Witness DP17?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not today.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Who is then -- who do you intend to call today so

19 -- that is what my information was.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness is DP17.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I asked, but there must be a

22 translation problem then. If you would look at the English transcript,

23 you will see that the Chamber expected Witness DP17 to be called. Did I

24 say -- yes, I said DP17. So it is DP17. Ms. Pilipovic, the recall of

25 DP51, Witness DP51 tomorrow, could you please tell us whether the Defence

Page 16701

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16702

1 would prefer to have the testimony of Witness DP17 suspended tomorrow in

2 order to hear -- to examine Witness DP51, or would you rather wait until

3 we have finished with Witness DP17 and -- I see you are nodding for the

4 transcript. I do understand that you would prefer to finish with DP17

5 and then that DP51 would be recalled.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Witness DP17

7 has been here for 8 days now, I think. He was supposed to start last

8 week, but because of the schedule, the way it was, he didn't make it. So

9 that's why the Defence would like to have DP17 finished first.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be any objection as far as the

11 Prosecution is concerned so that the Chamber can consider what -- whether

12 the Defence is allowed to first finish with Witness DP17?

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in fact I'd prefer that we finish

14 DP17 before we go to DP51. I am still unclear as to who comes after

15 DP51.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps you could receive this information

17 during the break from Ms. Pilipovic, and then the Chamber, of course,

18 would also be very glad to have this information. So the parties do agree

19 that we should finish Witness DP17. One of the other things,

20 Ms. Pilipovic, and perhaps I might ask your attention for that, if you say

21 that you could give in further detail the summary of the four witnesses to

22 be called that are on the request of the 29th of November, it gives the

23 impression, but please correct me if I am wrong, that as a matter of fact

24 the Defence has not thoroughly investigated what to expect from certain

25 witnesses before they are called, before they are invited to come to The

Page 16703

1 Hague. And that of course is of some concern because a decision on

2 whether it's useful for the Defence case to call a certain witness you

3 would preferably be done before the witness comes to The Hague at large

4 expenses for the Tribunal. Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just to

6 respond. What we know is that the truth comes very often from the

7 shock -- from the clash of new facts. And now we are at this stage that

8 the team as we work, this is how this is proceeding, and that's the reason

9 why there is this extra thing that we didn't know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This "extra thing" what are you referring to?

11 I am not quite clear that I do understand you. Perhaps I should change

12 to the French channel.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I was

14 talking about the clash of ideas or the shock of ideas, and we were not

15 speaking about extraordinary things, supplementary things, we were

16 talking about a second level of investigation, and it is starting from

17 that level, that in general then we get more information that we can

18 communicate in detail to the opposing side. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the question of course is how much information

20 is there before the witness comes to The Hague and has further

21 conversations with counsel or the team. That's, actually, what I was

22 asking the Defence.

23 Is the Defence ready to call Witness DP17?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Usher, could you bring Witness DP17 into

Page 16704

1 the courtroom.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. DP17, because that's how we will

6 call you since protective measures have been granted in respect of you.

7 Mr. DP17, we will not use your name in this courtroom, and your face is

8 distorted so that it cannot be seen by the outside world. Before giving

9 testimony in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you

10 to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole

11 truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that

12 declaration. And the text is just handed out to you by Madam Usher.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS DP17

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by counsel for the

20 Prosecution -- for the Defence. Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. DP17, good afternoon.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. Before I start asking you questions, I am going to show you a

Page 16705

1 document that I would like you to have a look at and to confirm whether

2 the information which is contained on the sheet of paper is correct.

3 A. Yes, the information is correct.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP17.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this

6 would be a good moment to go into private session so that we can get some

7 more detailed information about Mr. DP17.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into private session, that means that

9 the outside world will not hear what you are telling us from now on.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16706

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 16706-16709 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16710

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [Open session]

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We are not yet. Now we are. Please proceed,

8 Ms. Pilipovic.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. DP17, you told us on the 27th of May you were injured. And

11 can you tell us a little -- with a little more detail, which area was

12 that which you were wounded?

13 A. Well, I started to say and then of course there was this thing.

14 What proceeded the departure, you know that there were Serb students who

15 were killed in this part of Grbavica. This was a Serb part of Sarajevo,

16 and there was a --

17 Q. Mr. DP17, could you please just answer, in which area?

18 A. In Dobrinja.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17 --

20 A. I am sorry. Just if I can just explain how come I find myself in

21 Dobrinja because --

22 Q. We will ask you, Mr. DP17, if that is needed.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP17, may I ask you two things: The first is to

24 wait until this text on your screen does not move any more so that means

25 usually that the interpreters have translated the question. And if you

Page 16711

1 would then answer the question. And the second thing I would like to ask

2 you is to listen very carefully to the question. Because I am aware that

3 you could tell us about your -- what you know for hours and hours, but

4 the Defence is under certain time limits. So they will ask you

5 especially what they would like to hear from you. And I am sorry for you,

6 but you have to stick to the questions.

7 Please proceed.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. DP17, when you told us that you were wounded in Dobrinja, can

11 you tell us whether at that time you were organised in a sense that you

12 had weapons, and whether that was some kind of organisation?

13 A. At that time, when I was wounded we can already speak about

14 organisation. But what is important is the direct link to this which is

15 that following the killing of the wedding party guest in Bascarsija and

16 the Serbo flag was certain fire, of course all civilians of Serb

17 nationalities started to fear and be anxious about themselves and about

18 their families.

19 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us, how were you organised?

20 A. Well, to start with this was a spontaneous organisation. Because

21 I knew that that part of the settlement, Sucuri Prapare and I moved my

22 wife and children about 3, 4, 5 kilometres, deep into the area, also into

23 the Serbian locality, and I saw passing by that time because my relative

24 had a weekend cottage at that time -- and yes, I am just going to answer

25 now. There was a return and there was a linking up with these people who

Page 16712

1 were already there in Dobrinja, that would be my answer.

2 Q. Could you please be a little briefer in your responses. When you

3 say that you organised yourselves, then you joined up. Those people who

4 were organised in that part of Dobrinja, were you armed?

5 A. When I arrived there, I wasn't armed but since in the nearby

6 barracks there were weapons intended for the defence plan of the former

7 SFRJ, these were weapons for the Territorial Defence, I was given a

8 rifle, that is to say a Kalashnikov, from these weapons.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, can you tell us what your military

10 specialty is. Did you serve in the JNA?

11 A. Yes, I did as a driver.

12 Q. Thank you. In September 1992 you said that -- you said where you

13 joined up, you returned there. Can you tell us when the unit that you

14 joined was formed? Do you know anything about this?

15 A. Do you mean the return after the hospital and then --

16 Q. Yes, we are talking about September 1992.

17 A. Yes, towards the end of May 1992 when the JNA units left, first

18 of all, there was a spontaneous organisation and then companies,

19 battalions were formed and the Ilidza Brigade, as well, and I returned

20 that unit. I say that conditionally because I went there from the

21 hospital.

22 Q. When you say that you returned to the Ilidza Brigade, you told us

23 how the Ilidza Brigade was established. Can you tell us where you were

24 deployed?

25 A. Well, since I was still not totally cured, I was deployed in the

Page 16713

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16714

1 rear in the transport platoon. Something like that.

2 Q. Mr. DP17, in September 1992 when you joined the Ilidza Brigade,

3 can you tell us what the military situation in that Sarajevo municipality

4 was like?

5 A. There were attacks on a daily basis launched by the Muslim

6 forces.

7 Q. Mr. DP17, do you personally know when the first attack took

8 place?

9 A. Well, yes because on the 21st of April, in the evening, the line

10 near Prapare Sucuri was attacked. There was intense shooting from the

11 afternoon from 1800 hours up until perhaps 2100 hours.

12 Q. Mr. DP17, I am asking you about --

13 A. There was a frontal attack in Ilidza, but since we were also part

14 of Ilidza, but to the eastern part of the municipality, my first -- this

15 would be my first part of the answer. So it would be interesting to say

16 that that attack that took place on the 22nd of April, the people from

17 the delegation who went to negotiate with the Muslims in Hrasnica and in

18 Sokolovica they said that they shouldn't attack, that it was pointless to

19 die for no reason that it was necessary to stop the war. Bosiljcic Ljubo

20 an attorney from Ilidza was there.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP17, I have to interrupt. You have to listen

22 carefully to the questions and answer to the questions put by

23 Ms. Pilipovic because there might be that things that you are telling us

24 we might have heard already from other witnesses and Ms. Pilipovic wants

25 to avoid that we hear things five, six, or seven times. There maybe

Page 16715

1 other reasons why it is important for the Defence to put specific

2 questions to you and very often you tell us what you know, but not always

3 in relation to the question.

4 For example, when Ms. Pilipovic asked you when your unit was

5 formed, you gave a long answer, but I still do not know when your unit

6 was formed. You don't have to answer it now. But if the Defence wants

7 to get further information of you why things were important or who was

8 involved or -- they will ask you. So please listen carefully to the

9 questions and answer to those questions.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Your Honour, since the witness mentioned names of some people, perhaps it

13 would be good for the sake of the transcript to repeat those names and

14 then I will move on to the specific questions. So I see that these names

15 haven't been entered into the transcript.

16 Q. The people who were involved in the negotiations to avoid

17 attacks, you mentioned the people who were part of the delegation?

18 A. Do I have to repeat that? Should I repeat that.

19 Q. Yes, slowly.

20 A. Ljubo Bosiljcic, an attorney; Milenko Jaslar, a bank official; and

21 Popovic, I can't remember his first name.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see that the

24 names are still not in the transcript, but I will write it down and then

25 provide the names during the break so as not to waste time.

Page 16716

1 Q. Mr. DP17 -- Mr. DP17, you told us that in September you joined

2 the Ilidza Brigade. Can you tell us when that brigade was formed? Did

3 you know anything about this?

4 A. Well, it was formed, as I said, towards the end of May, 1992.

5 Q. Thank you. When in September you joined the Ilidza Brigade, can

6 you tell us who formed that brigade?

7 A. Well, the men were mostly territorial men, reserve officials, out

8 of the active duty officials, I can only remember Pero Despotovic, the

9 commander of that brigade, who was there for a few days and then was

10 assigned some other duty.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, you told us that you were deployed in

12 September 1992, you were assigned to the brigade. Can you tell us

13 whether throughout the relevant time period from September 1992 up until

14 August 1994, was that your military assignment throughout that period or

15 were there certain changes?

16 A. I wasn't there all the times. There were certain changes.

17 Q. Could you tell us what changed?

18 A. I think it was in November or December 1992 I was transferred as

19 a deputy for morale and religious affairs in the brigade.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, can you tell us whether you were at that

21 post as the assistant for morale and religious issues throughout that

22 period, were you there?

23 A. No. Towards the end of May or June, I was transferred as chief

24 of security in the brigade. I was assigned those duties and then again

25 in September 1993, I think in September 1994 I was assigned as chief of

Page 16717

1 the brigade staff.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, can you tell us you said sometime in June

3 you were appointed as chief, chief of security. Can you tell us what

4 duties you had to perform as the chief of security?

5 A. Well, these duties mainly involved security in the zone of this

6 brigade that I have mentioned, that we are talking about. For example,

7 general security, the deserters who would turn to us, their comments,

8 their observations. If necessary I could clarify this, I could tell you

9 what we paid special attention to.

10 Q. Mr. DP17, we will return to that matter. You said that you were

11 responsible for your brigade's zone of responsibility. Can you tell us

12 what territory that zone of responsibility covered, what was the front

13 line? What was the length of the front line?

14 A. The length of the front line was about 25 kilometres. The front

15 line extended from the Miljacka River through the urban part of Ilidza

16 over the Zel Ljeznica River and continued towards Igman where we joined up

17 with the Igman Brigade.

18 Q. Mr. DP17, you have told us what the brigade's positions were,

19 could you now use a map that the Defence will provide you with in order

20 to mark the positions of your brigade?

21 A. Yes, I think I could do that.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your

23 permission, Defence would like to show the map -- show a map to the

24 witness. It is 3742.

25 THE REGISTRAR: D1813.

Page 16718

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. DP17, could you please take a black felt tip that you will be

3 given.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP17, may I ask you not to mark anything until

5 specifically requested to do so by Ms. Pilipovic. Yes.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Mr. DP17, using this map, could you mark the positions of your

8 brigade on this map?

9 A. The positions extended from the Miljacka River through the

10 Komerc warehouse, below the Komerc warehouse, below the railway track in

11 this part --

12 Q. If you would just move your hand so that we can see what you are

13 marking.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us what part of town this is?

16 A. This is the Aerodromsko neighbourhood, I can't see this -- this is

17 the Aerodromsko neighbourhood across the road from the airport. This is

18 the western part of Dobrinja and in the direction of Nedzarici. We have

19 this part here.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, may I just intervene.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This map is presumably also of 1982 or this might

23 even be the map, I am not quite sure about that, that you used. But as

24 far as I understand maps until now, this map does not really reflect the

25 situation the witness is testifying about. And he might be confused

Page 16719

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16720

1 since specifically the Dobrinja area does not appear on this map in such

2 a way that it would be comparable to the situation, at least as far as

3 the Chamber, until now, understands the situation to be in 1992.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I can see that

5 on the map, but the Defence also has a plan of the town of Sarajevo.

6 Perhaps this map would be more useful for the witness. But I don't know

7 whether he could use this map to --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can draw the line with

9 precision, but this map is too -- the layout is not very visible and

10 letters are very small. So it is a little more difficult for me to find

11 my bearings, but it shouldn't be a problem for me to draw the lines as

12 they were at the time.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us what that area is, the one you are

15 marking now?

16 A. This is the area around Nedzarici towards Stupsko Brdo, the

17 Stupsko hill. I am looking for this crossroads in the direction of

18 Kasindolska Street and the Dobrinja River. That's where the Dobrinja

19 River is. I have finally found it. That is how the line went.

20 Q. Mr. DP17, when you arrived in September 1992, was the line as

21 such throughout the period of the conflict? What period of time does

22 this line concern, the line that you have just drawn?

23 A. Well, this line was such throughout -- almost throughout the

24 entire period of the conflict. When I arrived in Ilidza, there were very

25 few changes. When I returned from the hospital to the line there were

Page 16721

1 very few changes on both sides.

2 Q. In which area?

3 A. Well, in the entire Serbian Municipality of Ilidza, there were

4 very minor changes, insignificant changes.

5 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, in light of the current map the

6 witness is using, the Prosecution can certainly offer a clean copy of a

7 much more detailed map if that would be of assistance. That is the only

8 reason why I rise to my feet.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the Prosecution is offering you -- it

10 might be confusing what we are doing now because we all have -- after few

11 months we have the --

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a map which

13 we have been using with all the witnesses and the Prosecution also

14 provided us with this map.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I have to carry on drawing the

16 line?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. DP17, thank you, but please wait a minute.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this would

20 be a good time to have a break and we could then be provided would a map

21 and during the break the witness could mark the positions on that map.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we usually have a break at -- after one hour

23 and a half, but it might be a good idea to ask the witness to mark the

24 lines on a map during the break, on a map which reflects the situation as

25 it did exist in 1992. We might get confused. But if you have any other

Page 16722

1 questions for a couple of minutes, but we could have a break now and then

2 for half an hour, and then -- Mr. DP17, you will be provided with another

3 map that gives better picture of the situation as it existed in the

4 beginning of the conflict. This Chamber, of course, has a different

5 picture of Dobrinja compared to what it sees on this map, and therefore,

6 it is also for our convenience that you will be asked to mark this lines

7 you know about on a different map.

8 Would you please be so kind to do that during the break so that

9 we can see the result afterwards. Yes.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your permission

11 I can give the witness part of the map of the town of Sarajevo which we

12 have used in the course of examining by Prosecution witnesses and Defence

13 witnesses. Perhaps we would use this map. It is in colour and it might

14 assist all of us.

15 MR. MUNDIS: That is fine, Mr. President. We just thought that

16 this current map was not too helpful.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until 10 minutes past 4 and we have

18 the usual procedure as far as the presence of the parties is concerned

19 during the marking of the witness, that is. I think it is done in the

20 courtroom and both parties can be present and I don't know whether

21 it assists to do it on the ELMO so that you could even follow what the

22 witness is marking. I don't know whether this functions. So it is not.

23 So we will wait for the result. We will adjourn until 10 minutes past

24 4.00

25 --- Recess taken at 3.40 p.m.

Page 16723

1 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Before we adjourned, we dealt with some issues. The

3 Chamber has considered whether witnesses can added to the list, so that

4 make them from 2 to 4, and the Chamber has decided that on the basis of

5 the information provided, these witnesses, two of them can replace

6 witnesses that earlier were on the list, but on the basis of this

7 information the Chamber does not grant permission to add witnesses to the

8 list. And in order to -- if the Defence would provide further

9 information, then I think the proper way of doing it is first to give

10 summaries of what we can expect from these witnesses, even if they are not

11 in The Hague at this very moment, because that should be done before they

12 come to The Hague.

13 So the Chamber grants permission to replace two of the witnesses

14 by two witnesses mentioned in the request of the 29th of November, and

15 does not grant permission to add two other witnesses to the list. Then,

16 of course, it is of importance for it Prosecution and for the Chamber to

17 know which of the four -- which two of these four witnesses will replace

18 the witnesses earlier listed. Since the parties agree that it would be

19 better to first conclude with the testimony of Witness DP17, the Chamber

20 agrees with that so that we do not suspend his testimony tomorrow, but

21 first finish with him.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: When I said that before on the basis of this

24 information the Chamber did not grant permission to add these two

25 witnesses to the list, that includes that if there would be good reasons,

Page 16724

1 then, of course, we will consider that. But as it stands now, permission

2 is not granted.

3 And apart from that, of course, the time limits stay the same and

4 we will deal with that relatively soon in more detail. Then, I take it

5 that the witness has marked the map during the break. Perhaps we could,

6 when the witness returns, have that on the ELMO so that we can see what

7 he marked. And would there be copies of the map the witness used for the

8 Chamber available as well so that we can reproduce his markings? I then

9 think that we could ask the witness to come to the courtroom again.

10 Could you please escort him.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. Please be seated, Mr. DP17.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the marked map be put on the ELMO so that the

15 Chamber can see what markings have been made by Mr. DP17 during the

16 break. Yes.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In the meantime, we believe

18 that we have given one extra map. Could we have it back because we might

19 need it? Oh, we haven't? Okay, very well.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could we zoom out so that we can see -- yes.

21 If we would just leave it there for a while so that the Chamber can...

22 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. DP17, so on this map you have marked in the positions of your

25 brigade.

Page 16725

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16726

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. DP17, before the break you told us that these positions

3 didn't change significantly?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When you say this, do you mean that these were the positions from

6 1992, that is when you came, and from 1993 and 1994 too?

7 A. Well, there is a change here, that is, in order to answer this

8 question, I have to say, first, the positions of the brigade and the Serb

9 municipality of Ilidza, if you allow me.

10 Q. Mr. DP17, could you please first show us on the map in your

11 opinion where was this change in the positions, if there was a change?

12 Could you use a pointer to show that.

13 A. It changed only inasmuch that in the part --

14 Q. Mr. DP17, could you turn towards the map and point with a pointer

15 to your right, if you can point on the map this area. On your right -- on

16 your right is the map and use the pointer to show this area. Can you

17 move the hand. Now, can you use the pointer to show the area which

18 changed.

19 A. Only in this part, in this part of Otes here. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. DP17, when you say "in this part of Otes here" can you tell

21 us when was that?

22 A. That was in early December in Otes in relation to the Patum

23 locality, which there were Serbs who lived there. There were buildings

24 that were dominant there. And from those buildings many civilians,

25 women, children, elderly people were killed. So in one of the defence

Page 16727

1 attacks, this part was liberated, this part that I am pointing to here.

2 And this is probably the most important change as far as I can recall of

3 the changes when we look at the whole map when I came to Ilidza.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP, can you tell us, what was the name of that

5 area, that area of Sarajevo?

6 A. That part was called Otes.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, you marked this line for us. Is this a

8 line which encompasses the entire area of the brigade, its entire line?

9 A. On this map, and I will again use the pointer to show this, it is

10 not possible to see in front of the play park, there was a line that went

11 between the great alley, Sokolovici, the colony. So this is the line

12 between us, the colony Slavogonja [phoen] and towards Mount Igman so you

13 cannot see that on this map. This is going south-west as we look on the

14 map.

15 Q. So you have explained that this south-westerly direction went to

16 the foot of Mount Igman, is that how I should understand your answer?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us, considering that you have told us that

19 the length, what was the front line. Can you repeat what the length was?

20 A. 25 kilometres, that was the length of the front line.

21 Q. Can you tell us in terms of depth, how deep was the area of

22 responsibility of the brigade in this part that you have drawn?

23 A. The area of responsibility of the brigade in terms of depth was

24 100 to 200 and depending on the layout of the terrain, sometimes even up

25 to 2 kilometres.

Page 16728

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, when you asked the witness to point

2 at the area where the front line had changed, do you intend to ask him to

3 mark that as well? Because otherwise I would say that the witness

4 pointed, and I will say it for the transcript, pointed at an area north

5 from where it reads "Ilidza" and even north from a yellow road just above

6 the word "Ilidza" approximately where what seems to be a railway line runs

7 indicated on the map, Mostar Sarajevo.

8 Please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. So, Mr. DP17, when you've told us about the depth of the area of

11 responsibility of your brigade, can you tell us where were the command

12 posts? And I am speaking about logistics and other units.

13 A. The command post was slightly more forward than the front line,

14 perhaps some 100 metres or somewhere a little further, while the

15 logistics could be deep within the area, a couple of kilometres. But

16 that was approximately the distance as far as the front line positions

17 are concerned for the command post and for the logistics. The command of

18 the brigade itself was about 300 metres from the front line.

19 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us in certain areas I understood that the

20 command posts were in the vicinity of the front line. Can you tell us

21 what were the reasons for this disposition of the posts near the front

22 line?

23 A. One of the main reasons, and on the map you can see that, that we

24 were in fact surrounded and there was not much manoeuvreing space along

25 the line. And in order not to endanger in this sense, considering that

Page 16729

1 this whole area was under the dominant points where the Muslim forces

2 were positioned starting from Igman, Mojmilo, Brijesce Brdo and so on.

3 Q. Mr. DP17, so that we can all understand what you are talking

4 about, can you tell us what were the dominant points? We understand that

5 you can't see Igman, Mount Igman on this map, but --

6 A. The dominant points were the entire area of Alipasino Polje that

7 I am just pointing to, this here. There were buildings, 15 to 16 storeys

8 high, then Vojnicko Polje about 10 storeys -- buildings of about 10

9 floors. Then the retirement old people's home, the Oslobodjenje

10 building, the Mojmilo hill, Santica Hill from which we were targeted

11 with cannons, with field guns. On the other side, what was also dominant,

12 there was Vitkovac - let me just take my glasses - here is Vitkovac,

13 Brijesko Brdo, Sokolje, so all of these elevation points including Mount

14 Igman were all dominant, just like these buildings that I have named, they

15 were all dominant in relation to our positions, because our positions were

16 literally in the valley in a flat area. So all of the Ilidza Serb

17 municipality is on a flat land, on a flat piece of land.

18 Q. Mr. DP17, on the map --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the transcript,

20 do we need to describe these locations that Mr. DP17 described as being

21 dominant elevation points --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, one could even ask oneself as to what

23 extent this testimony is repetitive. I would say most of the positions

24 the witness mentioned have been mentioned before. And as you know, the

25 Chamber would very much like to parties to agree on where approximately

Page 16730

1 what positions were and I do not see much contradiction in the testimony,

2 perhaps, apart from some details, and sometimes in relation of time, but

3 most of the elevated positions there seems to be not major disagreement

4 between what the Prosecution witnesses have told us and what the Defence

5 witnesses are telling us.

6 Of course, they select other elevated points because they usually

7 point to what elevated points were held by the other party. But apart

8 from that, one could wonder what is the use of going through it all

9 again. But I have got one question. The old people's home is now -- is

10 on territory held by the other party. Could you please tell us what old

11 people's home you have in mind when you said that it was a -- at a point

12 or a building dominating. Could you indicate on the map where this old

13 people's home is.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is on the Muslim side next to

15 the Oslobodjenje building which had about 20 storeys. And this retirement

16 home or old people's home had 8 to 10 storeys. But that's what it was.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The witness pointed at where it reads "Dom

18 Penzionera" which is on the --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind that

20 Witness DP17 is the first Defence witnesses who specifically, according

21 to his recollection, put in the lines of the brigade, this is the first

22 Defence witness who has spoken about the lines of the brigade. It is not

23 contested that we have heard Defence witnesses who have spoken about the

24 positions of the battalions within this brigade, but we've only been able

25 to hear witnesses who were speaking about areas of Nedzarici and Dobrinja.

Page 16731

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16732

1 And now on the map we have the positions of the brigade. So we have

2 somewhat a wider area of responsibility in relation to what the witnesses

3 have testified so far.

4 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us in your brigade how many soldiers were

5 on the front line per one kilometre in this area?

6 A. Well, precisely it is hard to give an answer, but up to 70

7 soldiers could have been per 1 kilometre.

8 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us what was the deployment of soldiers on

9 the first front line in your brigade?

10 A. Most of the war events and battles, the so-called full combat

11 readiness, which means that it is easy to establish the number of

12 kilometres along the line as I have already told you about. The number

13 of people in the brigade went from 2.000 to 2.500 people and to keep them

14 in the urban area with this kind of a line with constant defence because

15 Ilidza itself strategically speaking because, as you can see for yourself,

16 was outside of Sarajevo and the central part of Bosnia, and their forces

17 constantly tried to break through Ilidza --

18 Q. Mr. DP17, when you are answering my question, can you tell us

19 that in this -- are you telling us that there was frequent fighting in

20 this area?

21 A. There was fighting on a daily basis. There was fierce fighting,

22 frequent fighting, high-intensity fighting, a lot of projectiles fired

23 from the Muslim side.

24 Q. Mr. DP17, when you tell us that in the area of your brigade there

25 was daily fighting, can you first tell us how far away were lines of

Page 16733

1 demarcation from each other in this part of the area of responsibility of

2 your brigade, when we are speaking about the lines of the BH Army?

3 A. Well, in this part and I can show also on the map, that sometimes

4 we were only divided by a street or a couple of streets and sometimes the

5 distance was 20 to 50 metres only, between our lines.

6 Q. Mr. DP17, bearing in mind that you said that you gathered

7 information, in which way did you gather information while you were at

8 this post where your duty was to gather, to collect information? How did

9 you do this and how did you get to this information?

10 A. Well, information was gathered in the information was passed on

11 to us by the battalion commanders, chiefs for security, then through

12 personal intelligence information speaking to the people across from the

13 other side from Sarajevo who went -- who came through minefields and came

14 over to our side because they were no longer able to stand torture and

15 mistreatment in Sarajevo. And these people who crossed over from

16 Sarajevo, they were a source of the most valuable information, those

17 people who came and told us this information.

18 Q. Mr. DP17, in the period --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just have a look at the map, the original

20 one. Yes, could -- Madam Usher, could you please assist.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us whether you have personally have data

23 which weapons BH Army soldiers used in the area of responsibility in your

24 brigade -- of your brigade?

25 A. Well, in the area of responsibility of the brigade, of my brigade

Page 16734

1 where I was, the Muslims fired with all kinds of weapons known, classical

2 weapons with the infantry weapons, rifles, semi-automatic machine-guns,

3 machine-guns, anti-aircraft machine-guns, field guns, hand held rocket

4 launchers. Rocket launchers like Zoljas, and even an Osa and even

5 multiple rocket launchers: Howitzers, tanks, self-propelled guns.

6 Q. Mr. DP17, can you please speak slowly. And now that you have

7 told us all this, are you telling us this on the basis of your personal

8 knowledge about the weapons that the BH Army had at its disposal?

9 A. I am speaking from my personal knowledge because I suffered this

10 fire, I was subjected to this fire from these weapons. Myself personally

11 and the entire brigade.

12 Q. Mr. DP17, when you've told us that Muslim -- that BH Army

13 soldiers fired from tanks, can you tell us in which period and from which

14 positions did they fire from tanks and I am talking about your personal

15 experience, your personal knowledge?

16 A. Well, after I had returned from the hospital and after I had gone

17 to Ilidza, a few days later, Ilidza was shelled. Tanks fired on Ilidza.

18 Our observers reported this. They fired from the Sipad factory. It

19 is a factory where furniture is produced and it is right next to the

20 Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks at Stup.

21 Q. Mr. DP17, can you mark the area that you have said in which the

22 BH Army acted in 1992 from September, can you mark this area on the map,

23 the Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks and the furniture factory, can you mark these

24 sites. Mr. DP17, take a felt tip and draw a circle and write the number

25 "1" in the circle.

Page 16735

1 A. [Marks]

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, I can't see

3 very well now, but the witness has marked the area --

4 Q. Witness, could you please stop. Don't mark anything on the map.

5 A. This is the standard furniture factory and this is the Jusuf

6 Dzonlic Barracks here.

7 Q. Mr. DP17, can you also mark the Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks with the

8 number "2."

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, the witness

10 has marked the building of the Sipad company at Stup. He has marked this

11 area, this site with number "1." He has used number "2" to mark the area

12 where the Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks was located. And according to what the

13 witness told us, tanks fired, BH Army tanks fired from there.

14 Q. Mr. DP17 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness marks something on a clear question

16 of you, there is no need to repeat anything for the transcript. That's

17 mainly of importance if it is not marked when he just points at

18 something. Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Mr. DP17, you have marked these two sites and you said that the

21 tanks fired from there. Can you now tell us whether you personally knew

22 whether in other areas of the zone of responsibility of your brigade there

23 were positions from which the BH Army fired from tanks?

24 A. Observers didn't see this but I personally saw it they fired from

25 this hill, the Vitkovac Hill and from Brijesce Hill.

Page 16736

1 Q. Mr. DP17, I have to interrupt you then --

2 A. I saw two tanks firing from there.

3 Q. Now that you have told us that, can you tell us during which

4 period you observed this. We are talking about September 1992, August

5 1994, that is the period we are referring to. So when you say you

6 personally saw this, can you tell us when you saw this, which positions

7 you observed it from and at what time?

8 A. It was at the beginning of December 1992, that's when I personally

9 saw them, at the beginning of December 1992. And when their offensive was

10 launched in mid-June 1995, I saw those two tanks again --

11 Q. Mr. DP17, I have to interrupt you. We are not talking about 1995

12 now. So you have told us that it was in December 1992?

13 A. At the beginning of December 1992.

14 Q. Thank you. You said that at the beginning of December 1992 --

15 A. I am talking about these tanks on Brijesce Brdo and Vitkovici

16 Brdo.

17 Q. Mr. DP17, can you use number "3" to mark Vitkovici Brdo?

18 A. It's somewhere here. There are these houses here. And Brijesce

19 Brdo is around here in this part, number 4. Is that right?

20 Q. Yes, Mr. DP17. Mr. DP17, you mentioned the tanks of the BH Army.

21 Can you tell us whether there were any tanks in your brigade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us how many there were?

24 A. Well, these were T-55 tanks. There were three tanks. They often

25 went to the technical and maintenance service because of wear and tear.

Page 16737

1 Very often they were defective.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, you spoke about the weapons that the BH

3 Army disposed of, that the BH Army had, and you told us that they also

4 fired from field guns. Can you tell us and can you mark this on the map.

5 Can you tell us which positions were positions from which BH Army members

6 used field guns, if you have personal knowledge of this.

7 A. On Mojmilo, there was Santica Brdo which faces part of Nedzarici

8 and Serbian Dobrinja. My personal knowledge relates to two field guns.

9 One was by the long-distance power line. There was one field gun there.

10 That will be number "5."

11 Q. Mr. DP17, mark that with number "5" for the field gun --

12 A. That was by the power line at the Mojmilo Brdo and the second one

13 was in this area. I can't see the contour on this map, but it was about

14 50 metres away -- just a minute. I can perhaps mark it with greater

15 precision. It was in this part, the second field gun was here. I will

16 mark it with a number "6." And their task was to cover and fire on this

17 part of Nedzarici and Dobrinja.

18 Q. Mr. DP17, you also spoke about --

19 A. That's in this part. They had 150 -- 5 millimetre field guns on

20 Igman because when they fired, this is a powerful weapon and you could

21 hear the shell coming from the direction of Igman and they had 130

22 millimetre gun and 105 millimetre guns. These field guns were located

23 according to our intelligence in Veliko Polje in Igman.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, you spoke about weapons and you mentioned

25 multiple rocket launchers?

Page 16738

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell us whether you personally know for the period

3 September 1992, August 1994, can you tell us whether they were used and

4 when?

5 A. Up until August 1994, well, they were used -- I know that at one

6 point in time and I personally experienced this, I was at home, the

7 children would go to school, my three daughters were to go to school and

8 that's when a multiple rocket launcher was used and it fired at that

9 area. I remember that I ran out to bring them back into the house as

10 soon as possible.

11 Q. Mr. DP17, you haven't answered my question. I asked you which

12 positions they fired from and when?

13 A. From Igman, that was towards the end of April and it was at the

14 beginning of May. They were used from the Igman position. It is more

15 easier -- it is easier to determine that position because when such

16 shells -- when such rockets are fired from multiple rocket launcher, a

17 terrible noise is made.

18 Q. Mr. DP17, could you please be brief. You haven't told me when

19 they were used.

20 A. End of April, beginning of May, 1993.

21 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, you told us that the BH Army had mortars

22 too?

23 A. They had mortars, they had 60-millimetre, 82-millimetre, and

24 81-millimetre mortars and 120-millimetre mortars.

25 Q. Can you tell us whether you personally knew from which

Page 16739

1 positions the mortars were fired?

2 A. Yes, from Sokolovici Kolonija, Hrasnica, Glava Gordinja [phoen],

3 from the Mladjene neighbourhood which can be seen on this map I'll point

4 it out. That is this neighbourhood here near the third phase, near

5 Alipasino Polje --

6 Q. Mr. DP17, please -- could you please speak slowly.

7 A. Should I repeat that?

8 Q. Mark the mortar positions on the map.

9 A. Position 7, one of the positions; second position, Sokolovici

10 Kolonija position number 8; here in the depth towards Mount Igman,

11 position number 9; and from Glava Gordinja between Glava Gordinja from

12 Hrasnica at the foot of Mount Igman, position number 10, there were

13 mortars there.

14 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you --

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You have not been precise enough. You said the

17 witness mentioned mortars. Was that in the catalog of the weapons he

18 gave or -- I don't see mortars there. I read all kinds of weapons known,

19 classical weapons, the infantry weapons, rifles. I don't find the word

20 "mortars" there. Of course, you referred to his testimony rather than

21 ask him a new question. But I might have overlooked it that he said this

22 at an earlier --

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague will assist me.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 43.19 on my

Page 16740

1 page in response to an answer from Ms. Pilipovic, but we have five pages

2 -- we are five pages late, so that would be page 48.20, more or less.

3 And Ms. Pilipovic asked whether there were any mortars and the witness

4 said, as far as I can remember, of course.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was searching on the word "mortar" and I

6 couldn't find any mortars back, so that is the reason why I am asking

7 you. Because I wondered whether there was anything I might have missed

8 or might not have been translated completely. When I search back on the

9 word "mortar" I don't find it, but perhaps my computer is not doing what

10 I want it to do. But please proceed. I just wondered whether I --

11 either the transcript or my ears missed something.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. So, Mr. DP17, slowly please, you marked the position of mortars

14 in the direction of Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica, Igman with number 10?

15 A. Yes, and then there were others which were located by the

16 restaurant Una, that is this part here. There was an office of T-A-M,

17 Tam. I can still see it but although this map is recent, so that would be

18 position number 11. They were located here in the Jusuf Dzonlic barracks

19 too. They were in the Vranica company.

20 Q. Mr. DP17, can you mark that with number 13?

21 A. Yes. Mortars which were used from Sokolje too, that is number 14,

22 from Dobrinja, so those would be the positions. Those are the ones that

23 I can remember. That's where the mortar nests were.

24 Q. Mr. DP17, to sum up you mentioned heavy weapons, you mentioned

25 tanks, guns, multiple rocket launchers, you mentioned mortars, you

Page 16741

1 mentioned the calibres. Can you tell us whether you personally know

2 about any other heavy weapons?

3 A. Well, there were anti-aircraft machine-guns, 12.7 millimetre

4 so-called Brownings. I said that they had a lot of Osas and a lot of

5 Zoljas rocket launchers and hand held rocket launchers.

6 Q. Mr. DP17, do you personally know how the BH Army armed itself?

7 Were you yourself in a position to see the weapons that the BH Army had?

8 A. Yes. I could -- I had the opportunity of seeing the weapons and

9 the ammunition. So it was easy for my to distinguish ammunition from

10 European countries, from ammunition from Argentina since they had such

11 markings, and there was ammunition from Eastern Europe -- eastern Germany,

12 correction. And as far as rifles are concerned they also had so-called

13 M-16 American rifles, they had quite a few Kalashnikov and that was also

14 the time I saw before the conflict broke out on the 1st of March, a month

15 or and before I saw Hungarian Kalashnikovs at the barricades. That's the

16 first time I saw them. And then I asked the Muslims what sort of weapons

17 are they, and they said that they were Hungarian Kalashnikovs.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. DP17. When you say that you were -- you

19 personally had the opportunity of seeing ammunitions, et cetera, while

20 you were present in that area and during the conflict, did you have the

21 opportunity of seeing those weapons in -- at a certain time and at a

22 certain location?

23 A. Well, yes. In Ilidza itself the Military Police stopped convoys

24 on several occasions, convoys that were escorting UNPROFOR forces and of

25 course in routine checkups they found ammunition and weapons as well as

Page 16742

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16743

1 projectiles, that is to say, mortar shells. And also powder for making

2 shells and rifle launched grenades.

3 Q. Mr. DP17, now that you have told us about this, were you

4 personally present, did you see who --

5 A. Well, yes, I was also personally present there. There was such

6 situations, too.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague

8 suggests that -- says that there is a mistake in the transcript. If he

9 could clarify this, I think it says "of European production."

10 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly is the line where the problem appears.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Behind, so perhaps you could read the line in which

13 you would like --

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But

15 could the witness take his headphones off.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put them first on. Yes. Do you

17 understand or read any English?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You studied psychology but you do not read any

20 English?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Russian, as you know was

22 studied a bit in our schools.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please take your headphones off.

24 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you -- I will listen to you on the French channel,

25 that perhaps would be the wisest.

Page 16744

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank

2 you, Mr. President. I think that I heard -- I think that I heard the

3 witness say as far as the production of weapons is concerned, that it

4 concerned Arab countries and not -- Arab companies not European

5 companies. In Serbian language the two words are very similar. Could we

6 just check this. Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, no loud speaking in B/C/S. It

8 is -- I know it is difficult --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Sorry, sorry, and sorry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: When you told us about the ammunition --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. It is rather stupid of me to address you

13 when I first asked you to take your earphones off. When you talked about

14 the ammunition and where it was produced, could you please repeat where,

15 according to your experience, the ammunition was produced?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the ammunition had Arab marks

17 and from Argentina and from eastern Germany and also ammunition which was

18 produced in Cojic.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification. Please proceed.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. DP17, I think you said that you personally had the opportunity

22 of seeing that. Where were you able to see this?

23 A. In the centre of Ilidza itself, in the course of a checkup, a

24 control, we found ammunition for Brownings, those are heavy anti-aircraft

25 machine-guns which are also used when -- against manpower, against the

Page 16745

1 infantry.

2 Q. Mr. DP17, I have to interrupt you there. You said that you

3 personally observed that. Can you tell us whether you were personally

4 present and in what kind of vehicles, if you saw this from vehicles?

5 A. I was personally present in vehicles which were allegedly

6 transporting humanitarian aid to Sarajevo. It is in those vehicles that

7 we found ammunition and medical supplies, if my memory is correct. It

8 was for the army, for the town of Sarajevo, the Muslims.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Defence has a

10 video cassette that has been disclosed to the Prosecution. It is number

11 348, number 4. With your permission could we see -- could we watch this

12 video cassette so that the witness could identify --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Are we going to just watch or also listen,

14 Ms. Pilipovic?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we will listen to it

16 too. Defence has prepared a translation and it is two minutes long, the

17 cassette is two minutes long.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the technical booth is prepared to

19 play that video? If you would then first --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] A copy of the translation has

21 been --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Provided to the booth?

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I've provided a copy,

24 Your Honour, but could that part be -- could we remain in closed session

25 for that part because the witness can be seen on the cassette.

Page 16746

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's do something in a logical

2 sequence. The translators have been provided with the translation you

3 have prepared. Yes.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And my colleagues from the

5 Prosecution have been provided with a copy.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And before we turn into private session, I would

7 first like to hear from Mr. Mundis whether the objection or observation

8 or consent he wants to express should be done in open -- in private

9 session or in open. Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, just simply the Prosecution has no

11 objection to the tape being shown.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we turn into private session.

13 [Private session]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16747

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 16747 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16748

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16749

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. Yes,

12 Your Honour.

13 Q. So, Mr. DP17, can you answer this question, you personally, what

14 kind of personal knowledge do you have of such checkups?

15 A. I have personal knowledge and Obrad Popadic who is a colleague

16 of mine, he found under the containers transported by UNPROFOR, and as far

17 as I remember that was also recorded on videotape and our television

18 broadcast this, and I remember this that the UNPROFOR forces said that

19 they are not responsible for the load, they were only responsible for the

20 safe passage of the convoy. That is what they said on that occasion.

21 And I also remember that Colonel Cojic from the Igman Brigade at the

22 crossing of Kobiljaca found many rifles of American production and

23 ammunition that were in transporters, and there was this attempt of them

24 to cross into Sarajevo so that they would end up in the hands of Muslim

25 fighters.

Page 16750

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. There is more, if you wish.

3 Q. Mr. DP17, I will ask you the following question. When you are

4 speaking about the UNPROFOR, can you tell us whether you had direct

5 opportunity to be present or rather what kind of cooperation with

6 UNPROFOR did you have, you personally, did you have any cooperation?

7 A. Well, personally there was a cooperation on this level, at this

8 post where I was and also on the level of the brigade. Personally not in

9 a sense that there was animosity between us. We respected each other,

10 but obviously there were criticisms when some incidents happened we

11 protested adamantly when these incidents occurred. That was not their

12 mandate to do this and that was something that was done specifically

13 against us.

14 Q. Mr. DP17, when you say that you had contacts with members of

15 UNPROFOR, apart from what you've told us, what else did you speak about

16 at meetings with UNPROFOR? What were the important issues for your area?

17 A. Well, the meetings that I attended mostly, among other things,

18 you could see this for yourself, for instance, there was addressing of

19 criticisms and requests and not to have this happen again, and also there

20 was an exchange of information in a sense when shells came from their

21 side and falling across the wider area of Ilidza, which incidents

22 civilians were killed. We also addressed this kind of criticism and

23 protest. And there were other discussions. But this is basically what

24 discussions were about. This is mostly the nature that I -- of these

25 discussions that I mentioned. That would be the essence.

Page 16751

1 Q. Mr. DP17, do you personally have knowledge whether in the area of

2 your brigade there were observation posts, UN observation posts?

3 A. There were three observation posts. One was in front of our

4 command, practically right next to the line, that is the line which goes

5 eastwards towards Hrasnica, Sokolovic colony and so on, that is where

6 the UNPROFOR forces were positioned. No, I am sorry. I don't mean

7 forces in general, but there was the French battalion was positioned

8 there. The second observation post was Zetra -- I am sorry time has

9 passed so I can't quite remember. But that was on the line towards a

10 city, towards Stup and that was in the area of responsibility of Muslim

11 forces. And then there was one observation post which was in Nedzarici

12 itself practically on the line, precisely on the line between Dobrinja and

13 Nedzarici. More specifically towards Vojnicko Polje, that was the closest

14 area was Vojnicko Polje. And there was one fourth -- fourth observation

15 post that is as much I can remember was in Energoinvest.

16 Q. Mr. DP17, when you listed these observation posts of the UN, can

17 you tell us, you personally, whether you had the opportunity to speak

18 with UN forces member and what did these discussions consist of?

19 A. Yes, we did. Very frequently we were bitter and angry. We

20 addressed this protest from General Galic during truces that were very

21 frequently agreed and signed, but none of these truces were respected by

22 the Muslim forces. And I remember one case when we had several people

23 who were injured and who were killed, and I asked the General, the here

24 present General, I asked, "What should we do? They have killed our

25 people. They are killing our people." And he said: "You should be

Page 16752

1 injured too, but we cannot answer fire because it is truce. These are the

2 rules. We cannot, we must not respond with fire."

3 And that was -- these were the discussions and also requests to

4 the UNPROFOR forces on these posts that I have listed.

5 Q. Mr. DP17, can you tell us whether you have personal knowledge, if

6 you know, how long did it last that observation post in Nedzarici, what

7 was the period of time that we are talking about? If you know.

8 A. Well, it was for several months continually, even longer. Well,

9 there were so many facts and so many details, so I cannot be absolutely

10 certain about that. I would rather not speculate.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17 --

12 A. I am sorry. As far as the observation post in front of the

13 command, I know that it was there almost until the end of the war because

14 it is something that was within my view.

15 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, can you tell us in the area of Nedzarici,

16 do you know where was the command post, that is, which unit was in the

17 Nedzarici area?

18 A. In the Nedzarici area was the battalion and it later became

19 company. And the command of the battalion again we called it 1st

20 Nedzarici Battalion, and it consisted of the company in the airport

21 locality and the company in Kasindolska Street. And to start with,

22 initially, the command was in the building of the former barracks. It is

23 a ground-floor building. And sometime in 1994 in early 1994 I believe it

24 was moved to Kasindolska Street. This command was moved. Or allow me

25 just a moment -- no, it wasn't in 1994. It was in 1995 that it was moved

Page 16753

1 to Kasindolska Street.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, can you tell us do you know at the command

3 of the brigade, did you receive reports from your battalions and how did

4 you receive them?

5 A. Reports arrived on daily basis and they were written reports.

6 These reports were compiled regarding all the events that happened

7 throughout the day. And these reports were done also by assistant

8 commander for morale, for logistics, for security and by the battalion

9 commander himself. So such reports came to the brigade command.

10 Q. Mr. DP17, when you say that you received reports at the brigade

11 command, can you tell us whether on the level of the brigade were reports

12 compiled on the level of the brigade and what would enter into those

13 reports and who did they go to? Who were they forwarded to?

14 A. Every day at the end of the day in the hours of the evening

15 following reception of reports from battalions, that is from the entire

16 area of responsibility of the brigade in question, there would be a

17 report compiled that would go to the corps command. And these reports

18 mostly contained the security situation in the brigade, the numbers, that

19 is the strength in the brigade, activity with the brigade, enemy activity,

20 logistics support, the morale in the brigade. These were mostly the

21 issues that were covered in the report.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

23 like to show the witness some documents that were disclosed to the

24 Prosecution.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist Ms. Pilipovic.

Page 16754

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. DP17, do you recognise this document? Mr. DP17, could you

3 please put the document on the ELMO.

4 A. I recognise this document and the person who compiled the document

5 and forwarded it, this is the kind of document that were forwarded with

6 the daily report, and we sent it to the corps command.

7 Q. Mr. DP17, in this report in the left corner, does it say 13th of

8 December 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Below the -- below in the document does it say "daily report"?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then it says "to the command of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. DP17, can you read the situation and the activity of the

15 enemy? Is that what it says in the document?

16 A. Situation activity on the enemy, throughout the day to day, the

17 enemy at the time of 1400 hours -- I am sorry -- throughout the day to

18 day at the time of 1400 hours the enemy intensively shelled the wider

19 area of Ilidza while the main targets of the enemy were important

20 strategic facilities as follows: The transformer station at Svrelo

21 Bosna, hospital in Blazuj and civilian facilities in the locality.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, you told us that these reports were

23 forwarded to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps command every day?

24 A. Yes. These reports with similar contents.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence would

Page 16755

1 like to show the witness DP17 another document. D1313.

2 Q. Mr. DP17, do you recognise this document?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. DP17, in the left corner on this document do you see -- do we

5 have the date 14th of December 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. DP17 is it also a daily report?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Under item 1, situation and activity of the enemy, could you

10 please read what it says in the first three lines of this item about the

11 situation and the activity.

12 A. Yes. "The enemy during the day and during the early evening was

13 not quiet, was not still. On several occasions it could be heard from

14 Mount Igman with artillery firing on a wider area of Ilidza, although the

15 firing wasn't frequent."

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. DP17, this document, do you also recognise the

17 person who compiled this report?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. DP17, you told us that after the enemy broke the truce you

20 spoke directly to the Corps Commander, General Galic. Can you tell us,

21 you personally, how frequently did you meet or did you have the

22 opportunity between September 1992 and August 1994, how frequently were

23 you able to meet General Galic?

24 A. Well, I met him on several occasions.

25 Q. When you say "several occasions" can you tell us how many times

Page 16756

1 is that and where?

2 A. Well, at least three or four times, considering the post that I

3 had, I was subordinate in the chain of command of the brigade. So three

4 or four times in the corps itself, and some ten times in the brigade when

5 the General came to inspect the brigade.

6 Q. You personally, were you present or were there any meetings at

7 that time?

8 A. Well, certainly there were official meetings in relation to the

9 security situation in the brigade, activities of the enemy, in relation

10 to the analysis of the logistical support and other military matters that

11 could be on the agenda, of course.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am thinking whether

13 it is time for a break.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If this is a suitable moment for you, we will have a

15 break until five minutes to 6.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, I was informed that you wanted to

19 address the Chamber.

20 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. It might be appropriate

21 for it to be done in private session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We will then turn into private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16757

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 16757 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16758

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Page 16758 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 16759

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague will

8 continue with the examination of the witness for the time that remains.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. And I will take

12 advantage of this opportunity to say that the Prosecution made a slight

13 error. We didn't have a meeting, this meeting -- a meeting this morning,

14 at least I don't remember such a meeting.

15 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day. Could you please answer my

17 questions by saying yes or no, if this is possible, yes, no.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you perhaps approach the microphone so

20 or perhaps the usher could assist us.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is that all right?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Perfect. I think it should

23 be all right for the French booth too. Thank you.

24 Q. Witness, I'd like to return to the issue of weapons. And in

25 particular to the issue of -- of mortars that you mentioned. On the map

Page 16760

1 you marked sites where numbers 8, 9, and 10, indicating battery positions.

2 Do you remember doing this; yes or no?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, could you tell us what the range of these

5 batteries was in terms of the shot?

6 A. Well, it depended on the calibre and the charge, how forceful the

7 charge was that would be used for the mortar when a shell was being

8 fired. So it -- a 60-millimetre mortar was -- had a range of under 2

9 kilometres. And then the range would go up to 6 kilometres or more, that

10 would be the range of a 120-millimetre mortar.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell us, Witness, from the

12 positions that you have indicated with the numbers 8, 9, and 10, what was

13 the distance as the crow flies, what was the distance separating these

14 batteries from the Alipasino Polje area, roughly speaking?

15 A. Well, up to about 4 kilometres.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know whether -- I withdraw that.

17 Witness, do you know what type of mortar, that is to say what

18 calibre, the enemy side had at positions 8, 9, and 10, the positions that

19 you have mentioned?

20 A. 82-millimetres, 60, and 120-millimetres.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like you to focus on the cassette

22 that we saw a minute ago, on the videocassette that we saw a minute ago.

23 I am referring to the lorries that we saw. It is not necessary to refer

24 to names or anything else really. I think we saw a driver. What happened

25 to this driver, can you tell us very briefly?

Page 16761

1 A. All the drivers were returned to their homeland.

2 Q. When, and if this is relevant, after what?

3 A. Given that such questions were complex, the corps would deal with

4 these issues. We referred them to the corps and those responsible in the

5 corps, I know from conversations with these persons that after a certain

6 period of time, I don't know how long, they were sent back to their

7 homeland.

8 Q. Witness, I am going to interrupt you there. If you don't know

9 exactly, if you don't know the answer, then say you don't know the answer

10 and then we will move on to another subject. Thank you.

11 You mentioned an Army Corps. Have you ever heard about the

12 existence of a plan at the level of an Army Corps, the purpose of which

13 would be to eliminate the entire population, the entire Muslim population

14 in Sarajevo; yes or no?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. That's a leading

16 question. Leading.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I agree, absolutely,

19 Mr. President, but I thought that there was a rule, according to which

20 when a certain point is not contested by the parties one could intervene

21 in a direct manner in order to save time. But I will reformulate that

22 question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: There would be no dispute between the parties as to

24 the existence of such a plan, then I would like to know in what respect

25 the parties agree on this issue?

Page 16762

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know, Mr. DP17, have you knowledge on the

3 policy of the military commanders or political commanders in the Sarajevo

4 area, what they were aiming at?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard about the total

6 elimination of Muslims and I think this is a way of thinking that is

7 inappropriate for Serbs and for commanders.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, would you please move to your

9 next subject. We now heard an answer to the question, but let me be

10 quite clear on that.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes, and it is not the first time that I draw

13 your attention to that, sometimes by putting the question -- a leading

14 question to the witness, the effect cannot be undone. One of the possible

15 responses of the Chamber could also be that you have to move to your next

16 subject without getting an answer and without the question being

17 reformulated either by the Chamber or yourself.

18 Please proceed on your next subject. The question has been

19 answered.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Gladly.

21 Q. Witness, a minute ago you spoke about mortars. Did you see

22 mortar impacts during the period that you were involved in the fighting

23 in Sarajevo; yes or no?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Since you saw them, what was the calibre?

Page 16763

1 A. Well, I saw the impacts caused by shells of all calibres that I

2 have mentioned, that the Muslim side had. If necessary I can tell you

3 which ones.

4 Q. Thank you. We all remember the four calibres that you mentioned.

5 I am interested in the 120-millimetre calibre. Did you see craters

6 caused by 120-millimetre calibre mortar shells in an asphalt terrain; yes

7 or no?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you. Did you see many such craters; yes or no?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Witness, to the extent that you saw many such craters caused by

12 120-millimetre mortar shells in asphalt, what can you tell us about what

13 happens to what we call either the tail-fin or the stabiliser?

14 A. Mostly I didn't even see this. When it exploded it would

15 disintegrate more or less, or it would fly off into the distance, but I

16 really didn't have the opportunity of seeing the tail-fin near the crater

17 unless the valve, the safety valve would be taken out. And then the

18 shell would be embedded in the asphalt and then you would see the tail,

19 that is to say the tail-fin of the shell.

20 Q. Witness, if I have -- in order to understand your testimony

21 correctly, in such a situation since you mentioned -- I will reformulate

22 that.

23 Could you please tell us what this sort of safety valve is that

24 you have mentioned and what is the purpose of this valve?

25 A. Well, all mortar shells have a safety valve. And before using

Page 16764

1 it, before putting the shell into the mortar barrel it has to be removed.

2 So this purpose of the safety valve is to prevent the shell from

3 exploding when it is being handled. Sometimes when people are in a

4 hurry, they would forget to take it out. The shell could fall out of the

5 barrel, it could hit the territory that is being targeted but it wouldn't

6 explode if the safety valve remained in the shell, and then the tail-fin

7 would remain intact, the tail-fin that you mentioned, it would be part of

8 the body of the shell.

9 Q. Very well. And with regard to your previous testimony, what you

10 testified about a minute ago. When you say "the tail-fin is embedded"

11 you mean in such situation, in situations when the shell doesn't explode;

12 yes or no?

13 A. Yes, clearly, clearly.

14 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to move on to a different

15 subject and I would like to examine the issue of orders. Did you receive

16 in your combat zone any orders from the military hierarchy regarding,

17 first of all, the use of ammunition; and then secondly, concerning the

18 issue of respecting civilians? Could you answer that question by saying

19 yes or no?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. Could you now tell us in a couple of words what the

22 nature of the orders you received was?

23 A. Well, the orders that we received were to save ammunition and

24 only to fire at people bearing weapons, and we relayed these orders to

25 certain soldiers at the lines, to subordinates and soldiers at the lines.

Page 16765

1 Q. Did you yourself relay these orders; yes or no?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell us on how many occasions and in what

4 circumstances?

5 A. Very often. When we were seeing battalion commanders and when

6 visiting the lines, so you could say on a daily basis.

7 Q. Witness, did you have the impression that the men respected these

8 orders in the course of combat; yes or no?

9 A. I am sure that they respected these orders.

10 Q. Thank you. I am going to move on to another subject. I would

11 like to briefly go back to the issue of mortars. I think that you

12 yourself had to, and this is a question I am putting to you, I think that

13 you yourself assisted or were present when there was shelling; yes or no?

14 A. When they shelled us, yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Witness, what -- I withdraw that.

16 According to your personal experience, on the basis of your

17 personal experience, can one hear the trajectory of a shell?

18 A. While it is coming it is impossible, but when it flies over you,

19 when it is about to fall in the vicinity, then you hear a hissing or a

20 sound similar to that. To be clearer, let's say if it falls about up to

21 about 50 or 100 metres behind you, you then hear it as it is flying over

22 you. At that moment you can hear it, if it is above you, in vertical

23 terms. But the soldiers said that if you heard a shell, you wouldn't

24 survive it because it would usually fall in your vicinity.

25 Q. Thank you for your testimony and I am going to reread the

Page 16766

1 transcript. You said that when it is arriving, it is not possible to

2 hear it, and you meant to say you were referring to the shells trajectory

3 before it hit its target; is that how I am to understand your testimony?

4 A. Yes, exactly. If we describe its trajectory as a parabola you

5 can't hear it until it starts falling. I at least never had the

6 opportunity of hearing the shell arriving. It is only when it starts

7 falling you know how the parabola -- what the shape of the parabola is.

8 When it starts falling, when it is in your vicinity, then you can hear it.

9 Q. For the sake of time, could you always be as brief as possible.

10 I would now like to ask you a certain number of questions with regard to

11 the trenches. I will return to that in a minute, but there is just

12 another question I have about weapons. You mentioned heavy weapons that

13 the enemy side had. Could you tell us if you know anything about this

14 how the enemy obtained his light weapons at the very beginning of the

15 war, if you know anything about this?

16 A. Well, he had obviously been preparing, he had prepared himself

17 earlier on.

18 Q. Could you expand on that?

19 A. Well, he was preparing for war by using various trafficking

20 channels. The enemy was arming himself.

21 Q. When?

22 A. Well, my knowledge relates to, and I'll give you the precise

23 date, my first knowledge about weapons and lorries for Muslim was at the

24 end of 1991. And then the second time I found out something about this

25 was about the 10th of January 1992. And --

Page 16767

1 Q. Witness, I will interrupt you there. We will take this in order.

2 You remember the end of 1991 and it appears the 10th of January 1992, can

3 you tell us how you can remember this?

4 A. On the 1st of March -- I have already mentioned that I saw

5 Hungarian Kalashnikovs on the 1st of March at the barricades that the

6 Muslims had put up near my flat in Alipasino Polje. That's when I

7 personally saw them in the hands of these people. They were Hungarian

8 Kalashnikovs and plastic butts that the JNA didn't produce, so these

9 weren't from our sources. They -- the source was a Hungarian. It was

10 produced in Hungary.

11 Q. Thank you for this. Witness how can you know what happened at

12 the end of 1991 and around the 10th of January 1992?

13 A. At the entrance to the building in which I lived a lorry arrived

14 one evening, a 3-ton Zastava lorry with Novi Pazar registration plates.

15 And on that occasion in the evening hours, my friend and neighbour called

16 me, his name was Boro Ivanisevic, he called me to tell me that I should

17 look out since my flat was facing the other side of that building and in

18 front of that building, he told me to have a look in front of the

19 building. The Muslims were bringing weapons in. I had a look and I saw

20 that they were taking out rifles. They were carrying them in bags. I

21 couldn't make it out, but I could see who the producer of those weapons

22 was. And as far as what I found out on the -- what I know about the 10th

23 of January, my brother who worked in the ministry of interior, had told

24 me that they had stopped a four-wheel drive which was being escorted by

25 the MUP because it wasn't being escorted with an alarm light, and the

Page 16768

1 policeman whose surname was Carmas said that it was suspicious. He

2 stopped the vehicle and asked them what they were transporting and the

3 reply was flour. But why is a police escort provided if flour is being

4 transported and that gave him the idea -- he got the idea of lifting the

5 tarpaulin. He had a look at the cases and he saw that there were rifles

6 in the cases. He informed the police in Hadzici about that, that is also

7 a municipality which is part of the town of Sarajevo, it is about 15

8 kilometres from the centre of the town to the south. Everyone turned up

9 at the site. The chief, the secretary of the municipality, all the

10 Muslims came and persuaded them to go to the station said that the vehicle

11 would return. They waited in front of the station and the vehicle carried

12 on, and later on it was sold, it was never found. So it went to the first

13 Muslim villages which were not far from that place where the vehicle was

14 stopped. And the third occasion I have already clarified that, those are

15 the weapons that I saw in the hands of those who were manning the

16 barricades on the 1st of March. That was all before the beginning of the

17 war.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. Before we move on to the question of

19 civilians, I would like you to tell us something about the trenches.

20 Were you in a position to see any trenches in the zone that was in a

21 certain sense under your control?

22 A. You mean Muslim trenches? Yes, we saw such trenches.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you see them while they were being dug; yes or

24 no?

25 A. We saw them when they had already been dug, and while they were

Page 16769

1 being dug.

2 Q. Thank you. Do you know who carried out this work?

3 A. Well, I know that for sure that mostly Serbian civilians were

4 involved in this work in Sarajevo from the notorious Silos camp in Tarcin

5 and from other Viktor Bubanj and from other private prisons around

6 Sarajevo. They were forced to dig trenches, the Serbs were forced to do

7 so. I know this for sure because I spoke to such people.

8 Q. Were they shot at, I mean the people who were digging?

9 A. We never shot at people who weren't carrying rifles.

10 Q. Thank you for that answer. I would like to go back to the

11 question of material damage, Witness. Could you tell us during which

12 period property buildings were destroyed? When was the most extensive

13 damage inflicted on buildings, during which period, could you tell us

14 anything about that, please?

15 A. Well, it is difficult to give a precise time. One could refer to

16 months. The most extensive damage was done in the period that started at

17 the beginning of the war and up until mid-1993, in my opinion.

18 Q. Thank you. Witness, I want to go back to the issue of fighting.

19 When there was large-scale fighting between the two sides and I am

20 referring to what you know on the Serbian side, obviously, was it possible

21 for civilians to be wounded, not just soldiers but civilians too?

22 A. Well, of course. I remember that at the end of December, I

23 remember an example that will illustrate what I want to say. I know that

24 one mortar shell, 120-millimetre mortar shell which fell in the

25 municipality, seven people were killed by this shell and 33 people were

Page 16770

1 wounded. And I am not mistaken, another two succumbed to their wounds

2 later on and many remained disabled, many people out of the 33 wounded

3 remained disabled. That was towards the end of December 1992. Near the

4 Blazuj hospital also, it is known that the hospital is was always just a

5 civilian institution and my great friend Zeljko both his mother and

6 father were killed at one moment.

7 Q. I am going to stop you here. Witness, do you have personal

8 knowledge, even if it is approximate knowledge about the number of

9 civilians injured from 1992 to 1994?

10 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, lack of foundation. No basis for asking

11 this witness this type of question, Mr. President. It is also irrelevant.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question

13 is to ask about the foundation as well, whether he has personal knowledge,

14 of course.

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... several times

16 that the Defence is asking whether someone has personal knowledge. I

17 think the issue is what is the basis of that knowledge? And by just

18 asking whether a witness has personal knowledge, that does not always give

19 an answer to the question that is really involved, is that on what that

20 personal knowledge is based.

21 Could you -- you know that the -- the question has been put to

22 you, Mr. DP17, whether you have any knowledge on the number of civilians

23 injured from 1992 to 1994. And I -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, perhaps the first

24 clarification we would need to get an answer to that question is that

25 what area? Is that the whole of Sarajevo or municipalities or the area

Page 16771

1 where the witness was active? Do you have -- what did you have in mind

2 when you asked the question?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No. Mr. President, of course

4 we are speaking every time about one area. The Witness mentioned Blazuj

5 hospital, so this is about the areas that the witness visited, I should

6 have clarified this. I apologise. And of course we are also speaking

7 about very specific areas that have to do with the brigade.

8 JUDGE ORIE: In the area where your -- where you are fulfilling

9 your duties, what would you know about the number of civilians, civilian

10 casualties?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know from the authorised organs

12 in the Ilidza municipality that this is the period that you are speaking

13 about that about 300 civilians were killed. And I know for sure that at

14 the same time 460 soldiers were killed and 2.150 soldiers were injured

15 during the war. I know this for certain.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me then ask you: The authorised organs,

17 who were they?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were the organs that dealt

19 with the -- these questions, because of course the civilian -- or the

20 civilian authorities also functioned in the municipality of Ilidza like

21 the registrar and so on.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Who told you this? Let's -- before we talk about

23 organs, talk about persons. Who told you the number of 300 civilian

24 people killed?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Specifically I was told this by --

Page 16772

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps there

2 is a problem of possibility or necessity for closed session. Perhaps we

3 could --

4 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into closed session -- in private session.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16773

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE ORIE: And would you then please answer the question. Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This specific knowledge based on

19 the analysis, medical certificates on the basis of the records that were

20 kept by heads of personnel. Because chief of personnel there was such a

21 person at the brigade command, because these people kept a record of

22 everybody who was injured and the type of the injury. So they kept a

23 record of people injured. I know that such a number for 1992 and 1993

24 was about 250 persons. I can't be quite sure whether it is 255, 256, but

25 about 250 people killed in the Ilidza Brigade during 1992, 1993, that's

Page 16774

1 how many there were.

2 And as far as the entire war is concerned, there were 460 people

3 killed, 2.250 [as interpreted] injured, which can tell you something about

4 the fierceness of the fighting and the Muslim attacks that occurred during

5 the war, the war that is the subject matter of this Tribunal.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please. Microphone.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I am sorry. On page 80,

8 I am looking at another screen and it is line 10, and, yes, indeed it is

9 a different number, I believe, that the one that we can see here. We

10 were speaking about the injured because the French interpreter just told

11 me that this is about 2.250 persons -- 2.150, this is what should appear

12 now. Here it is. Thank you very much.

13 Q. Witness, I am going to ask you some other questions in relation

14 to a strategic target in the city of Sarajevo. You spoke to us about

15 these persons who were leaving the city and were giving you information.

16 First question: These people, were they able to leave the city

17 throughout this period that we are interested in from September 1992 to

18 August 1994; yes or no, if you can answer as much as you can?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Witness, these persons, were they able to give you

21 information of the strategic type; yes or no?

22 A. Not all of them. Some of them were able to.

23 Q. Thank you. Those who were able to, what were these pieces of

24 information, what was the type of information that they were able to

25 provide?

Page 16775

1 A. Most of the time what we were interested in since the period has

2 passed, we can speak about this, we were interested about the positions

3 of mortars, tanks, field guns, where are their troops massing, where are

4 their accommodation of their troops, are they preparing attacks, do they

5 have -- if they had any information in relation to that. These were

6 mostly the questions that we asked.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Now speaking about the strictly military

8 aspect about the weapons, was there also any aspect in terms of

9 manufacturing weapons? Were you also interested in that, about the

10 weapons industry?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. Hypothetically speaking, did you get any specific

13 information from these people speaking about this second aspect of the

14 information?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us -- this Chamber something about

17 this.

18 A. The knowledge, our knowledge, we knew that they were producing

19 grenades, grenade launchers in the schools, Jaroslav Crni in the

20 secondary technical engineering school, in the Vasin Miskin school, at the

21 faculty of engineering, at the company called Zica. This is the

22 information that I obtained during these interviews and gathering of

23 information. This is what I can think of at this moment.

24 Q. Thank you, Witness. Very briefly, for the two schools that you

25 mentioned and for the three other facilities, can you please give us

Page 16776

1 their locations, if you can, the exact streets of the aforementioned,

2 perhaps at least the neighbourhoods.

3 A. I know the neighbourhoods precisely. For most of them I know the

4 streets as well, Jaroslav Crni school is near the Miljacka River, it is

5 the so-called alley or the promenade. Then the engineering school is

6 located at Marijn Dvor, that is the building next to the Holiday Inn

7 Hotel. The company called Vasin Miskin Crni, that is what it was called

8 before the war, this company is located next to the street Vojvoda Putnik

9 [phoen] Street near the company for social protection, and then there is a

10 school which I had the information about, and next to this Vasin Miskin

11 school, this is where the shells and the grenade launchers were produced.

12 I didn't have this information. I remembered it later on. And then in

13 the Zica company across the bridge, the closest location to that company

14 where the warehouse was, warehouse for tram vehicles, that was on the

15 Alipasin Most, where the company was, and of course the faculty of

16 engineering which was located at Kosevo. That would be the closest

17 location, the closest reference point. That's what it would be. So that

18 belonged to the municipality of Centar.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if I may just interrupt for one

20 second. When we stop at 7.00 the Defence would have used two hours and

21 50 minutes, approximately. So if you say, well, we are more or less

22 sticking to our estimate of time we would need, perhaps you could see

23 whether you could finish by 7.00. If not, then, of course, we will have

24 another 10 minutes tomorrow morning.

25 Please proceed.

Page 16777

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am almost

2 certain that I will manage to finish tonight. Thank you very much. May

3 I proceed? Thank you.

4 Q. Witness, thank you for listing these facilities. You spoke about

5 the weapons that you were trying to locate or the positions, enemy

6 positions that you tried to locate in the city. And I am talking about

7 the mortars. These mortars, were they fixed, were they in one position,

8 were they mobile, were they semi-mobile? What can you tell us about

9 this?

10 A. Most of the time they were mobile because there was this logic

11 applied that you should never fire for a long time from one position,

12 although there were also such that practically throughout the war they

13 fired according to our information from one location, whether it was 500

14 metres to the right or to the left. And then they would fire again. But

15 in any case, there were also fixed. So the answer would be there were

16 fixed and there were mobile ones that would change location, but I have

17 to say that we also had the information that they also had light mortars.

18 These are 60-millimetre mortars on freight lorries that were moved

19 throughout the city. So it was very hard to -- it was very difficult to

20 find the exact location, the exact position that they were active from.

21 It was hard to trace them, so to speak.

22 Q. I will interrupt you. Thank you very much. Where do you have

23 this information from? You say we received the information, but how did

24 you receive that information? Who provided this information to you at

25 the time?

Page 16778

1 A. From the persons who left the city.

2 Q. Thank you. Witness, you spoke about lorries in plural. Did you

3 know several cases, testimonies that mentioned such lorries; yes or no?

4 A. Well, again, I say six years have passed. So I know they have

5 spoken about this but it is hard to say whether it was one lorry or

6 whether that one lorry appeared in several locations. But in any case,

7 this information has been checked or has been corroborated by several

8 people because people left, and it was about mortars active from the back

9 of lorries.

10 Q. Would it be possible to give us the names of the people that you

11 have questioned on this subject; yes or no?

12 A. It would be possible, but considering everything --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Of course.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... private

15 session for that reason, we will now turn into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 16779

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [Open session]

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, I can see that you are still thinking about that name.

14 Please forget it. Just focus on the questions, please. The positions

15 that were positions of your brigade, was it possible to see, for

16 instance, cultural or religious facilities on the other side of the

17 separation line; yes or no? I am talking about museums, mosques and so

18 on.

19 A. The museums could not be seen. That's mostly newly built areas,

20 and mosques dominated in the -- in the older part of town.

21 Q. Very well. But could you see them?

22 A. No, unless I am very mistaken and if I can recall it correctly.

23 See I cannot say for sure that there was a mosque in Hrasnica, although I

24 have been to Hrasnica a hundred times, but I know there was a mosque in

25 Butmir as far as these facilities were concerned, yes, you could see

Page 16780

1 them. But as far as museums, theatres, cinemas, they were not in that

2 part of town that bordered us, that would be my answer.

3 Q. Very well. But theoretically speaking, would you be able to

4 target or hit a cinema or a theatre, I mean hit with direct or indirect

5 fire, would you theoretically speaking to hit such a facility?

6 A. No, no, because in Ilidza the cinema and the cultural centre hall,

7 our troops held that. So these kind of halls, they were not outside of

8 the area where we were.

9 Q. Witness, I am now speaking about the mosque that was located

10 according to your testimony in Butmir. This mosque, was it, yes or no,

11 at a distance that was within the range of a mortar; yes or no?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know if this mosque that

14 you told us about, was it ever attacked, fired on by your troops; yes or

15 no?

16 A. I didn't see it personally.

17 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know about other

18 facilities, cultural facilities, museums, theatres, cinemas or monuments

19 that may have been within range looking from the positions that you had

20 the control of?

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] For the Serb booth, I am

22 speaking about the positions, not certainly the weapons, but that will

23 do. Thank you.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whether something is within the

25 range, is that what you mean by that question? Is that your question?

Page 16781

1 Well, yes, it was within the range, yes it was certainly.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Thank you. Did you ever hit or did you ever attack fire on with

4 your weapons?

5 A. There was never such an order and I don't know that such

6 facilities were attacked.

7 Q. Very well. One last question, Witness, about light weapons. You

8 spoke about that incident at the end of 1991 and the incident around

9 the 10th of January 1992 and the incident in March when you spoke to us

10 about. Now, I would like to go chronologically at the very beginning of

11 the events which is more specifically the period when the JNA left

12 Sarajevo as such. Can you tell us if you know when was that period when

13 the JNA was leaving or left Sarajevo?

14 A. Well, the JNA --

15 Q. Do you know that; yes or no?

16 A. Approximately, yes, which means roughly speaking.

17 Q. Thank you. When the JNA was leaving Sarajevo, when it was

18 withdrawing from Sarajevo in the part which would be -- which will be

19 under the control of the enemy forces, do you know what happened with the

20 weapons that may have been left in the barracks in that part, do you know;

21 yes or no?

22 A. Yes, I do know what happened.

23 Q. Thank you very much. What -- can you tell us what happened

24 briefly?

25 A. The Muslims took over the weapons.

Page 16782

1 Q. And if you know, on the basis of what, what is the source of your

2 knowledge? What is the origin of your knowledge? What and if you know

3 what kind of weapons could these forces have at their disposal; yes or

4 no?

5 A. Well, the forces managed to obtain not only infantry weapons, but

6 also heavy weapons. Field guns, mortars, and tanks.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am finished, Mr. President,

9 but I would just like to say that the English booth may have forgotten

10 the heavy machine-gun at the very beginning when he listed the weapons.

11 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for the transcript that special attention

12 will be paid to page 87, especially where a question mark appears because

13 I do not read in the transcript part of what in my recollection what I

14 think I've heard.

15 Mr. DP17, this concludes your examination by counsel for the

16 Defence. I'd like to instruct you not to speak with anyone, not with the

17 Prosecution, not with the Defence, not with anyone about your testimony

18 that you have given in this court, and that you are about to give in this

19 court. Tomorrow we will continue. You will then be further examined.

20 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning -- tomorrow in the afternoon

21 quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the

23 transcript, I just wanted to say something. Page 45, line 11, there was

24 an overlapping of the questions of the Defence and the answers of the

25 witness so I thought if perhaps those who are assisting us would pay

Page 16783

1 special attention to this. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Page 45, that is on your computer or on the

3 other one. Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I made sure that I

5 copied it on the real transcript, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I take it then special attention will be paid to

7 that. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning -- until tomorrow afternoon,

8 I always make the same mistake. We will adjourn until a quarter past 2.00

9 in the afternoon.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

11 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

12 the 4th day of December, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25