1 Friday, 6th December 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Stanislav Galic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, my LiveNote is not functioning.
10 But I now see a difference on my screen. I will just try to fix it.
11 There is still no text on my LiveNote. Could someone assist me in fixing
12 my LiveNote on my laptop.
13 If there are no other issues to be addressed at this very moment,
14 I would ask Madam Usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 WITNESS: WITNESS DP17 [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. DP17. May I remind you that you
19 are still bound by the solemn declaration --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- That you have given at the beginning of your
22 testimony. Having been examined by the parties, the Judges would have
23 some questions for you as well.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE ORIE: First is Judge Nieto-Navia.
1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. You mentioned
2 during your testimony some places in which according to your information
3 the BH Army produced weapons and ammunition. Do you recall that?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Might the witness be provided with map 1814.
6 Do you see any of those places in that map?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Would you please take a red pen, a red one,
9 put a cross and a "W" in each of those places, "W1," "W2" et cetera and
10 please give us the address or the street or the just for the -- for having
11 that in the transcript. Which place is that, please?
12 A. This is the wire factory at Alipasin bridge, that would be the
13 location. And before the war that was also the address of this factory.
14 And in this part of the map, you can't see the technical school, it
15 doesn't say Marijn Dvor, that is the central part of Sarajevo. It is the
16 mechanical and technical school but I can't mark it because part of the
17 map is missing. It is to the right of this map, the facility I am talking
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: [Previous interpretation continues]... To an
20 arrow showing the place, please.
21 A. Similarly, the railway and industrial school is missing in
22 Zivka Josila Street, that is where it was located and that would be here
23 more or less if you can see it on the screen. It would be where my finger
24 is, if we had the second start of the map. If you have the eastern part
25 of Sarajevo, if you have a map of the eastern part of Sarajevo, it would
1 be easier for me to be precise when answering.
2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Are there other places on this map?
3 A. The places that I had information about, no, they are not on this
4 map. But they are in the eastern part of Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. You mentioned if I am not wrong,
6 four places in which the UNPROFOR or the UN military observers had posts.
7 Do you recall that?
8 A. I apologise. Can we finish with this matter? I can repeat the
9 sites where weapons were produced. I can repeat that, although I can't
10 mark it on the map because part of the map is missing.
11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: It is not necessary.
12 A. It is not necessary, all right, then.
13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Another issue, the issue of UNPROFOR and the
14 military observers posts. Do the same exercise, please, putting instead
15 of the "W" a "UN" mark, "UN1," "UN2" et cetera.
16 A. Last time I forgot Energoinvest. There's something there too, so
17 I will mark this too.
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I am sorry, Energoinvest was a weapon factory,
19 was a UN post? What was that? I cannot see.
20 A. No. It was an UN checkpoint, and on our part it was an
21 observation point.
22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. So "UN2."
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Is that "UN3"?
25 A. Yes. These were all postwar names. These are all postwar names.
1 These streets are not that familiar to me now. Very few names retained
2 the prewar names that they had. That is why I am taking some time to
3 locate the UN checkpoints.
4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I am unable to see where the witness
5 wrote. Perhaps the ELMO could be adjusted.
6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: The last one?
7 MR. IERACE: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point again at where you last have
9 written something on the map.
10 A. That's the place I mentioned. And the Prosecution asked me
11 whether this could be seen from the command, if you remember. That's in
12 the Velika Aleja that goes towards Bosna, and in that part where the arrow
13 is, our command was in front. And in front of that command in the
14 direction of the lines there was the fourth checkpoint that I have marked.
15 I don't know if I should mention that there was an UNPROFOR battalion
16 which was located at the airport. And I don't know whether I should mark
18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: No, no. I think that it is not necessary to
19 do that. Thank you very much. No further questions, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you as
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 [Interpretation] I would like to make sure that I have understood
24 you correctly. When you drew the confrontation line on this map in the
25 Nedzarici area, the line shows that Nedzarici was not entirely under the
1 control of the Serbian forces. Isn't that correct?
2 A. Well, in general, generally speaking, most of that area, apart
3 from a few houses, in Nedzarici as can be seen on the map, most of the
4 area was under the control of the Serbian forces. But the urban part of
5 the Nedzarici area -- perhaps what is written here is confusing you. For
6 us Nedzarici is this area that is marked here.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, exactly, that's where it
8 says Nedzarici. You marked the line there that -- it goes through the
9 written word.
10 A. Yes. But it would be more realistic if this word Nedzarici was
11 written -- well, you can see where I am pointing to now. You can see it
12 on the map. I don't know why it is being written here. It is a recent
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me. I just want to make
15 sure that I have understood you correctly. Nedzarici wasn't entirely
16 under your control. There was a part of Nedzarici that was under the
17 control of the enemy side.
18 A. Well, a very small area, an almost negligible area, because I
19 would like to repeat that this map was made after the war. I don't know
20 why the word Nedzarici is so far to the right. This is in fact Nedzarici,
21 this part that I am pointing to now.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Sir, you can confirm that the
23 lines that you drew are the exact lines that correspond to the actual
25 A. In my opinion, yes.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. My second question
2 concerns --
3 A. I apologise. Could I just clarify one other detail? You can see
4 these buildings that are marked here, that's where Dobrinja V begins.
5 Dobrinja V already begins in this part. So --
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me to interrupt you. What
7 I want to make sure of is that you drew the line in the area where you
8 thought the confrontation line was; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's move on to
11 another subject, then, please. You stated that with regard to taking the
12 Otes area, you explained this, I will quote you in English, you said [In
13 English] "In one of the defence attacks, this part was liberated."
14 [Interpretation] And you explained that this defensive attack took
15 place in December 1992. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. My question then is:
18 Did you state that there were buildings that had several floors which were
19 used, as far as you know, by snipers who fired on your positions or fired
20 at your population, and as a result you decided to organise what you
21 called a defensive attack. My question consists of two parts: First of
22 all, I'd like to know whether this area, the Otes area which was taken by
23 your forces during the defensive attack was an inhabited area?
24 A. Well, according to our information, there were very few civilians
25 there, if that's what you are asking me about.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, because you said -- just a
2 minute, please. Listen to my question and then answer it, please. You
3 said that there were buildings that were used among others by snipers in
4 order to fire at your population or at your posts, and you decided to
5 launch a defensive attack, to plan a defensive attack, that's the term
6 that you used. I simply want to know whether this area that you call
7 Otes, I'd like to know whether there were any inhabitants there, was this
8 an area where people lived or were there just snipers there? Were the
9 buildings empty, apart from a few sniper nests? Were there any civilians
10 who lived in this area; yes or no?
11 A. Well, we didn't just have a few sniper nests there --
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes or no.
13 A. Well, I apologise, Judge, but there were not just a few sniper
14 nests. There was the line, the entire line there.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] As far as you know, in
16 this -- just a minute, please. In the area that you call Otes, there were
17 no civilians who lived in that area?
18 A. That's not what I said. I didn't say that not at any time --
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] In December 1992, please, when
20 you launched your defensive attack, were there any civilians living in
21 that area; yes or no?
22 A. In the buildings against which we launched defensive attack, there
23 were no civilians there. There was just the line and quite a lot of
24 Muslim troops, not just a few snipers.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So there were no civilians in
1 that area?
2 A. In the area where the line was, that's the area that I am talking
3 about and the buildings that were part of the line.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The zone that against which you
5 launched a defensive attack?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] That means -- you mean to say
8 there was civilians there?
9 A. There weren't any civilians in the part against which we launched
10 an attack. There were just Muslim forces there.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] The area called Otes that you
12 aimed at --
13 A. The Otes area is a far wider area, greater area than this one.
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, the zone that you mentioned,
15 you pointed it out on the map, and you said that is this part was
16 liberated -- just a minute, please. How can you answer without hearing my
18 Wait for the question and then answer and I will listen to you
19 attentively then.
20 You said this area that you liberated, you were talking about an
21 area, you were talking about a zone, but not just a few buildings. And I
22 simply want to know whether there were any civilians in that zone, in that
23 area; yes or no?
24 A. Well, yet again I am not just talking about a few buildings. I
25 don't know whether the interpreters are interpreting this correctly --
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will move on to
2 another subject.
3 Were you familiar with the plan for the defensive attack, how did
4 you carry out that attack?
5 A. I personally at the time was -- did not have such duties. My
6 duties didn't involve me participating in that defensive attack at the
7 time. But I was indirectly included in it, but I wasn't personally
8 involved in it, so I can't really say yes.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you at least know
10 which weapons were used?
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Which weapons were
14 A. Well, mostly infantry weapons, as well as field guns, mortars,
15 such weapons on the whole.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood you
17 correctly, mortars, that was to prepare the terrain in a certain sense.
18 There were field guns, there were mortars and then an infantry attack, in
19 accordance with the traditional rules?
20 A. Well, you could say so.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. So the mortar attack
22 and the field guns used, they were used against buildings, the buildings,
23 in which the enemy side had its troops?
24 A. It was directed at the enemy line from which they fired on us. We
25 directed our attack against that line. Could you please try to understand
1 that the front was a fairly -- a fairly wide area. It doesn't just
2 consist of the few buildings that you have just mentioned. Because the
3 line was several kilometres long, buildings can't cover that area.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you
5 correctly, this is an interesting point, because initially you said that
6 you had liberated a zone. A zone is not just a line. It is an area, it
7 has a depth.
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, let's move on to
10 another subject, please. Answering a question that was asked of you, you
11 answered, and I am going to quote you in English [In English] "You could
12 hear the shell coming from the direction of Igman."
13 [Interpretation] And you spoke of field gun firing. Now, my
14 question is in relation to the sound. Were you able to determine the
15 direction of fire based on the sound, and particularly, if these were
16 mortars, you, who had the experience of a confrontation line, were you
17 more or less able to hear the shell and to determine, more or less, the
18 origin of fire? Because you said [In English] "The shell coming from the
19 direction of Igman."
20 [Interpretation] That is to say, if I understood you correctly,
21 you were trying to say that according to the sound you were able to
22 determine the origin, the source of fire.
23 A. Yes. But primarily based on the firing position, and I even
24 commented on this, I said --
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. But I am talking
1 about the possibility view. You have lived in this period of war, and you
2 are able to, on the basis of a sound of a shell, to determine the source,
3 the source of the fire?
4 A. Again, I am repeating, that's not what I said. I was just
5 speaking about the position of the firing. But the shell, when it is
6 falling in the vicinity, and I think I said this, if the shell is going,
7 flying over you 20 to 50 metres, then you hear it. But I commented what I
8 said was that the soldiers have said that once you hear a shell, it's too
9 late then, that's precisely what I said.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you yourself, you personally,
11 you cannot determine the source of firing on the basis of sound?
12 A. On the basis of the sound of the shell that's flying, you cannot
13 hear it unless it is going, flying over you. But the firing position you
14 were talking about, the locations, you were asking me a question, how was
15 it possible to locate where the fire is coming from?
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I am not talking
17 about the sites, the firing sites. I am talking about a fly-over of a
19 A. That's very hard to answer that question. It's very hard. For
20 instance, if you -- if you -- if a Maljutka is fired, then you hear this
21 kind of hiss, and then if you hear that, you know that you have been fired
22 on with a Maljutka. But with other projectiles, all kinds of field guns
23 and calibres that were fired on us, it was impossible to determine, I was
24 not able to determine which calibre was being fired on us. That's what I
25 wanted to say.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You also said in
2 relation to the stabilisers of a mortar shell falling on asphalt surface,
3 you said that it was impossible that the stabiliser would be embedded, and
4 that the only possibility was if something that could occur, that if the
5 safety valve wasn't activated, wasn't taken out, taken off; is that
7 A. Yes. These are my experiences.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. But, yes, yourself,
9 did you observe -- did you observe a stabiliser embedded in the asphalt?
10 Because "the security valve hadn't been activated"? Were you personally
11 able to observe such an occurrence embedded in the asphalt?
12 A. If I understand you correctly you asked me whether an unexploded
13 shell, if I had seen such an unexploded shell embedded in the asphalt; is
14 that what you are asking me? Is that the question?
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, have you ever seen an
16 unexploded shell which was embedded in the asphalt, however?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, you are certain
19 that the security of the safety valve hadn't been activated?
20 A. That's impossible -- you cannot establish this. You cannot
21 determine this. Because there is a risk -- let me just clarify. There is
22 a risk. For instance, if you mechanically going to take the shell out
23 because you don't know why the shell hadn't exploded, perhaps you may try
24 and go for it, reach it, get it out and then it might explode. Let me
25 just explain, this shell has to be destroyed by explosive.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well, sir, but what you are
2 saying, you yourself have seen shells embedded in the asphalt?
3 A. Yes. I can tell you that, if you know Sarajevo, near Kula
4 restaurant until a year ago, there was this kind of shell just next to the
5 restaurant. There is a shell standing there and nobody dares to do
6 anything about it. You have to destroy it with an explosive but if you do
7 that, the whole restaurant would blow up, so there is this shell here.
8 That's an example.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am asking
10 Mr. President to be patient, if you allow me another five minutes. You
11 also spoke of a problem, and I am going to quote you so that I
12 don't -- [In English] "And then as it is often the case, there would be
13 unruly behaviour."
14 [Interpretation] Was this phenomenon, this occurrence you are
15 speaking -- I am quoting you in the context that you spoke about this
16 issue -- you were speaking about your soldiers, the soldiers who were
17 members of your brigade. And you said that that it happened, that some
18 soldiers would drink alcohol and then their behaviour would be unbecoming
19 to soldiers. So was this a phenomenon that was frequent? Do you know of
20 several occurrences like this? Can you give us some examples, when you
21 say "their behaviour," how did they act? What kind of behavior was that
22 that they were exhibiting?
23 A. Well, I didn't say quite like that, what you've quoted,
24 Your Honour, the way you've taken it out of the context. I have spoken
25 hypothetically --
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am going to interrupt you
2 because I am going to quote you and I can give you the page. This is what
3 you said [In English] "And then as it is often the case there would be
4 unruly behaviour."
5 [Interpretation] And that is perhaps a translation, but I am
6 saying to you what is in the English transcript. So if you say that is
7 not what I said, then I am all ears, listening to what you have to say.
8 A. Thank you for your understanding. But that's not what I said.
9 Then it is a very bad translation. I was speaking hypothetically when the
10 Prosecutor was asking me what were the tasks, that was the context, what
11 were the tasks, the duties of the Military Police. And personally my
12 duties as security officer, so I said among other things, one of the tasks
13 was to prevent such occurrences, possible -- probable occurrences. So,
14 perhaps, if there is smuggling of alcohol, if there is this kind of
15 trafficking in alcohol, so because if this allowed to sell alcohol, for
16 alcohol to be consumed, then such situations, that was the context that I
17 said this in.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I wasn't speaking
19 about the trafficking. I am speaking only about alcohol. Very well. So
20 I am coming to the end of my questions. Perhaps I have one or two more
22 You spoke -- you said that one day you were called to go to the
23 observation post of the United Nations and if you wish, I'll quote you.
24 You said [In English] "They wanted me to go to their observation post."
25 [Interpretation] Do you recall the reason why or the occasion?
1 A. I recall very well. The gentlemen who were at this observation
2 post said that it would be with great difficulty that they would remain
3 there at this post because the Muslims were constantly firing in spite of
4 the warning to the Muslim command, they were firing at the observation
5 post. And I went and I saw for myself there were 50 shots, more than 50
6 shots. They could have only come from the Muslim side. They came
7 directly to the post, on to the post where the UN observers were. So
8 these persons wanted to tell us, let us know why they were unable to
9 remain at this post. And this part in Nedzarici towards Vojnicko Polje.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did they change, did they
11 actually change the post, the location?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Where did they go to? Did they
14 go to a little further afield or where did they go to?
15 A. I don't know exactly. And I tell you why, because I was involved
16 in other tasks. But this post, on this post, I didn't see them there any
17 more. That was a protected post by bullet-proof glass, but if you can say
18 that there were these traces, so to speak, scars, from -- from weapons
19 being fired on the glass.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. Because what you have said
21 on the map, you pointed exactly where they were posted, but I don't think
22 that you then mentioned that they had changed the location. Very well.
23 Let's go on to my last question.
24 You said --
25 A. You didn't ask me
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Just as well that I
2 did ask you in the end. The very last question, sir, is in relation to
3 something you said. You said that you -- that your brigade, that you
4 didn't -- your brigade didn't have sniper rifles.
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you said also [In English]
7 "Weapons that could fire at a long distance."
8 [Interpretation] So, as far as you know, the range of rifles used
9 in your brigade went up to what distance?
10 A. Well, the rifles that we had at our disposal, theoretically
11 speaking, and our instructions were that there is no point in using these
12 for distances over 200 metres. Because these rifles were otherwise used
13 for up to 400 metres, but these were -- these were not very precise
14 rifles. And when we -- have to explain -- when we checked their ranges,
15 when we tested them on the testing ground, very few people managed to hit
16 a target at 100 metres with that rifle. So this is not a bad Serbian
17 soldier shooting, but it's because the rifles were old and they were not
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But the range of the rifle of the
20 weapon, what is the range of that rifle?
21 A. Maximum range of this rifle, as far as I know, about 600 metres.
22 But I am not completely sure. This is as far as I recall.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You are speaking about all the
25 A. No, no. I am speaking about the type of the rifle that was the
1 most common rifle among our soldiers, that was AK-47 Kalashnikov rifle.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No. I am speaking about rifles
3 in general, rifles used by your brigade. Is that the only type of rifle
4 that you had or were there any others that you had that had a longer
6 A. Well, there were also automatic rifles, M-56, and they had a
7 shorter range in relation to the previous rifle. And then there was also
8 the Browning gun that we spoke of. We had it and the Muslims had it too.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, let's just focus on the
10 rifles, please and different types of rifles. You said and you confirmed
11 that your troops had only rifles with maximum range up to 600 metres -- up
12 to 400 metres, is that what your testimony is?
13 A. No, this is when optimum conditions, when it is the best kind of
14 rifle, when the barrel hasn't been damaged. Theoretically speaking, these
15 rifles can shoot at a distance of up to 400 metres. You can also shoot at
16 500, and a kilometre, but they are not effective, they are not hitting the
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. DP17, I have got a few questions for you as well.
20 Would you please not interrupt me when I put a question to you, and would
21 you please listen carefully to the question so that you can answer it.
22 You talked about an attack on Otes. You told us that mortars were
23 used in this attack. From where were these mortars firing when they
24 supported the attack on Otes?
25 A. Well, to be perfectly honest, personally I didn't lead this
1 operation. I am just saying this very sincerely, so I don't know exactly
2 where from that they attacked. I wasn't even involved in this defensive
3 attack as someone who established anything whatsoever. I carried out
4 only -- what I mean is that if I knew it I wouldn't have a problem to
5 say --
6 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer is I don't know from where --
7 A. That's correct. I don't know exactly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's the answer to my question. How do you know
9 that mortars were supporting this attack on Otes? Were you told that they
10 were used?
11 A. Yes, and I was able to follow --
12 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you were told. By whom?
13 A. Well, you see I answered yes, I said I knew. I could have just
14 followed that over the radio, the radio link that we had.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So you know it from what you heard on the radio?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is: Were there any mortar crews in
18 the School of Theology or Faculty of Theology?
19 A. There weren't. And practically that was impossible.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am not talking about mortars; I am talking
21 about mortar crews. Your answer is still the same?
22 A. Yes. I don't know that at the Faculty of Theology there were
24 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know or do you know that there were not?
25 A. I think I would have known had they been there. As far as I know,
1 there weren't any there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You indicated -- and please could the witness
3 be shown map 1814, D1814.
4 You indicated where mortars were located. Could you please point
5 at it again in Nedzarici.
6 A. [Indicates]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us where the mortar crew was located
8 that was responsible for those mortars? No, I am talking about the crew,
10 A. Well, logically, yes, would be the closest to the area where the
11 mortars were. This would be these houses in this part here. So this is
12 what I am pointing to now. You can see it. That's where they were.
13 That's where the crews were, the mortar crews.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know or do you just assume that they were
16 A. I know that. I said that I saw that once, the mortars, and the
17 fact is that they were able to move in case the enemy would locate them
18 well and fire at them, it would be the most normal thing for them to move.
19 But when I saw them, I know then that they were in a house next to where
20 they were.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, let's now move to a mortar position you
22 indicated at the opposite side of the line in Dobrinja. I think you
23 indicated this by "15." Would you please point at it and could the map
24 perhaps be moved a little bit, Madam Usher. Yes. Thank you. Could you
25 please point again at where you located a mortar position in Dobrinja at
1 the other side of the line.
2 A. [Indicates]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's where you have written "15."
4 What's the basis of your knowledge that a mortar was there?
5 A. People who crossed over that went -- came to our side running
6 across minefields, they gave us this information. That doesn't mean they
7 were always there, but they told us, according to the information that we
8 had at our disposal, they moved them as well in the same way.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you say it was a mobile mortar, and your knowledge
10 is --
11 A. Mortars can be used. I am sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you not to interrupt me when I put a question
13 to you.
14 So you are telling us that it was a mobile mortar and the basis of
15 your knowledge is what you've been told by one person or would it be more
16 persons that came to your side of the line?
17 A. More persons.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether we have to turn into
19 private session, but you gave a name during your testimony of one person.
20 Could you -- do you remember the name of other persons who confirmed that
21 a mortar was there. If you remember the name we could turn into private
23 A. At this moment, I can remember another name, apart from those that
24 I have already given. Names and surnames.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We then turn for a moment in private session.
1 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Were there any M-48 rifles
22 in your units?
23 A. I don't recall. If there were any initially, there were only very
24 few because all soldiers had more confidence in these rifles that had more
1 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... Whether you
2 were and you answered --
3 A. I didn't see them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any difference in the presence of
5 snipers in your battalion compared to other battalions?
6 A. We didn't have any snipers.
7 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether there was any difference
8 between your battalion and other battalions or would you say that it was
9 the same in all battalions, that there would be no snipers in other
10 battalions either?
11 A. I am speaking about battalions in my brigade, so I want to make
12 that clear. As far as I know, there weren't any.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- do you know what unit was present at the
14 Jewish cemetery? Am I right in understanding that the Jewish cemetery was
15 not within your zone of responsibility?
16 A. You're right. It wasn't in our area of responsibility.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know anything about the presence of your
18 troops near to the Jewish cemetery?
19 A. Very little. I know there was frequent fighting. The radio and
20 TV reported on this. But I know very little on this. Specifically I
21 don't know anything because I wasn't there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if you don't know anything, I won't put any
23 additional questions to you. About shells coming from Igman, you
24 testified that shells were coming from Igman and answering questions of
25 Judge El Mahdi you said that not by sound you could identify them as
1 coming from Igman; is that correctly understood?
2 A. No, that's what I wanted to clarify. The Judge wanted to know
3 whether the calibre could be determined. I asked whether it was a matter
4 of the origin of fire, and I was told that it wasn't the origin of fire,
5 but whether the calibre could be determined on the basis of the sound. I
6 explained this, I wasn't in a position to do so, and I don't think
7 anything else could.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you listen carefully, I don't think the questions
9 were about the calibre, but the source of fire of the shells --
10 A. In that case --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please let me put the question to you.
12 When you told us about shells coming from the direction of Igman, on the
13 basis of what exactly would you be sure that they came from the Igman
15 A. If it was in the evening, on the basis of the flash and the noise
16 you could hear, the explosion from the place it was fired from, and the
17 flash, that was obvious. But observers observed the entire zone, and if
18 there were several of them -- if several of them say that they saw
19 something in such-and-such a part --
20 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues]... And a noise,
21 as I understand you. And that was --
22 A. Yes, the explosion that you hear when the shell explodes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now during the day?
24 A. In the course of day, of the day, either visually, if it could be
25 seen, but usually we would determine this on the basis of the explosion
1 you could hear when a shell was fired.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now your personal knowledge when you yourself
3 identified during this time that a shell was coming from Igman, when you
4 did not see anything but when you heard the explosion, were you then able
5 to identify on the basis of this explosion that it would come from -- that
6 it was fired from Igman?
7 A. I apologise. If I only heard the explosion and nothing else,
8 that's how it was interpreted to me; is that your question? Well, yes, my
9 answer is, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So just on the basis of the sound of the explosion
11 where you didn't see a shell being fired, you were able to identify that
12 it came from Igman?
13 A. Yes. Because one had the opportunity to hear it nearby. You
14 develop a sense of hearing, not just me, but everyone who follows this.
15 So you can tell whether something was fired from a kilometre or from two
16 kilometres. It was possible to determine where the origin of fire was,
17 more or less, not with great precision.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So not only the direction, but also the distance,
20 A. Well, usually, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 A. One can be wrong. You can't be very precise in such situations.
23 It depends on the weather, it depends on where you are. There are quite a
24 few influences that factor this. And Igman covers a wide area.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer. A next question
1 would be: You told us that you would hear a shell fly just prior to
2 landing; is my understanding correct?
3 A. Yes. I apologise again. But if you are near -- yes, but there
4 are shells that you don't hear at all. But if we are talking about the
5 shells when you are the target.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that because if the distance that you would
7 not hear a shell flying over that would land somewhere else? Is that
8 because of the distance between the man on the ground and the shell flying
9 over high that you would not hear it?
10 A. Well, yes. The distance and in any case you usually don't hear it
11 when it is flying over. I didn't have the opportunity of hearing a shell.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have no further questions for you. Have the
13 parties any need to put additional questions to the witness?
14 Then, Mr. DP17, this concludes your testimony in this court. I
15 know that you had to wait for quite a while. I also noticed that you had
16 to come back twice. I appreciate your patience. I thank you for having
17 answered the questions of both parties and the Chamber, and I wish you a
18 safe trip home again.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you too, and I
20 apologise if -- well, this is the first time that I have appeared before a
21 court. So if I made certain attempts, this was just a matter of showing
22 goodwill towards the Judges. And it was an honour for me to testify here.
23 I don't know whether this is customary. I would just like to say hello to
24 the General, to greet the General without any comments, without making any
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, you've said it already. It is not
2 usual, and it is usually not what we do in this court. But from his face,
3 I see that he received some greetings from you. Thank you very much.
4 Could you please, Madam Usher, escort the witness out of the courtroom.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once again, I hope you work continue
6 with success and I wish all the best to the General.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through
9 the documents.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Pilipovic, may I have some guidance as to
11 whether you intend to tender both maps D1813 and D1814?
12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D1 -- I don't think the witness
13 finished with D1813, it is D1814.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that would be sufficient for the Defence, then I
15 take it D1813 is not tendered and D1814 is tendered. Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: D1812, under seal, pseudonym sheet; D1814, map
17 marked by witness; D1312, B/C/S report dated 13/12/1992; D1312.1, English
18 translation; D1313, B/C/S report dated 14/12/1992; D1313.1, English
19 translation; D348/4 under seal, video in B/C/S; D348/4.1, under seal,
20 English translation of D348/4; P2754 under seal, UNMO report; and P2759,
21 UNMO report.
22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in relation to P2754, it doesn't need
23 to be tendered under seal.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: The testimony given in respect to that document was
1 given in private session, but if the Prosecution who classified the
2 document as an "R" document does not insist on admission under seal and if
3 the Defence would agree that although the testimony was given in private
4 session, there is no need to admit this document under seal. We could
5 admit it.
6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have these two
7 documents P2757 and P2759 and my objection to having these documents
8 included is that the witness wasn't able to recognise these documents and
9 was not in a position to confirm the coordinates. I think that you will
10 take this into consideration when admitting the documents.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, any --
12 MR. IERACE: Just this observation, Mr. President, that in
13 relation to the witness not identifying the document, there was no basis
14 for the witness to identify the document, but the Trial Chamber has
15 already heard evidence in relation to the document P2754 from a witness
16 who was in a central position in respect of the normal production of such
18 Mr. President, in relation to the map references, when read in
19 conjunction with P2759 on the face of the document one of the positions is
20 identified as the Home for the Blind. You will note that the same map
21 reference is given in both. In relation to the second map reference, the
22 Prosecution will seek to call evidence in reply to establish that that
23 position is in fact as was put to the witness, approximately 10 metres
24 from the intersection that was indicated to the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace you are telling us that the testimony
1 was given on 2754 by another witness.
2 MR. IERACE: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, no discussion has at that moment
4 been taken about the admission into evidence of that document and you say
5 if that witness recognise the document or the type of document we are
6 talking about, we will have to consider whether when you did not tender
7 that document, whether we could later rely on testimony in respect of a
8 document which at that time was not tendered.
9 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, you may recall that at that stage of
10 the Prosecution case, as a matter of course, the Prosecution often did not
11 tender large numbers of documents that were shown to the witness in order
12 to simply to avoid unnecessary paperwork. Instead, and as was done with
13 this particular document, the witness's attention was drawn to this
14 particular passage and it was read to him, and in that sense, even if the
15 Trial Chamber did not admit into evidence the actual document in respect
16 of that witness's evidence, his evidence would stand alone without the
17 document. And it is sufficiently in evidence for it to be joined to this
18 document now, because the relevant passage was read to him word for word,
19 and he confirmed that it was correctly read to him and that the document
20 was produced the normal way, and that he would have seen it at the time.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will consider whether or not to
23 admit 2754, and 2759 for which the same is true, I think, whether there is
24 sufficient basis to admit it into evidence. The other documents are
25 admitted into evidence.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: When we consider whether there would be a sufficient
3 basis to tender these documents into evidence, we have a provisional
4 translation of one of these documents in B/C/S. I noticed that the
5 translation given by the interpreters was not literally the same.
6 Mr. Ierace, could -- while we are considering whether to admit
7 this document or not, could the Prosecution perhaps check and perhaps the
8 Defence is invited to do the same, whether this would be a translation
9 that could serve to assist the Chamber in understanding -- no, not assist
10 the Chamber, but whether this would be a translation which is similar
11 enough to what has been read to the Defence and especially to the accused
12 to be admitted into evidence.
13 And when the accused has been informed on the basis of the
14 translation given by the translators in this courtroom, if at any stage of
15 the proceedings we have to check whether what has been read to the accused
16 is, as far as the content is concerned, similar to what the translation
17 says on paper.
18 I would like to avoid that we have an oral translation which
19 differs too much from the written translation that is admitted. If you
20 seek to admit the -- you do not seek --
21 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I don't seek to admit into evidence,
22 that is to tender, the rough translation that was provided to the Defence.
23 It was a, as the title indicates, a translation not prepared by an
24 official interpreter, and if there is any discrepancy, then the
25 interpretation provided by the court interpreters who are properly fully
1 qualified should be relied upon. It was provided simply to assist the
2 Defence to understand the contents of the document at short notice.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So the translation as it has been given orally at
4 trial is, in the view of the Prosecution, the content of that document.
5 So we rely on that, if necessary, for the future. Then we will consider
6 the matter.
7 Is at -- we are now at a point where Witness DP51 could be
8 recalled in order to be cross-examined. What would be wise? To do it
9 right away? Let me just confer.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: In order not to unnecessarily interrupt the
12 cross-examination, we will have a break now until five minutes past 4.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine
16 Witness DP51? Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: WITNESS DP51 [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness DP51.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
23 JUDGE ORIE: We are glad to see that you came back in order to be
24 cross-examined by the Prosecution. May I remind you, although it is
25 already quite some time ago, that at the beginning of your testimony you
1 have given a solemn declaration that you would speak the truth, the whole
2 truth and nothing but the truth, and that you are still bound by that
3 solemn declaration while now continuing to give evidence in this court.
4 Ms. Mahindaratne.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. May the witness be
6 shown the document which was shown to him before the adjournment. We have
7 the translation, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, do you have the numbers available.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We have translations on the document,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I am merely going to show the document,
13 Mr. President. It is not an exhibit.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You are just going to show it, you are not going to
15 tender it, yes.
16 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]
17 Q. Sir, you were shown this document on the previous date at the
18 point of adjournment.
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Could you please read out the title of the document, please.
21 A. "The Serbian council of the Serbian Democratic Party. Information
22 on the policies in Bosnia-Herzegovina, on health policies in
24 Q. Could you please read out the name of the person who has signed
25 the document.
1 A. Professor Milutin Najdanovic, the late, he is an acquaintance of
3 Q. What is his designation as indicated on his document?
4 A. When the multi-party policies were implemented in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were five parties in power. Three national
6 parties, one called the reformist party, the representative was a Croat.
7 And the fifth one --
8 Q. Let me interrupt you. Could you just give out the designation as
9 indicated on this document, due to time constraints.
10 A. Coordinator of the commission for health of the SDS, Professor
11 Milutin Najdanovic.
12 Q. Sir, on the previous date having examined this document, you
13 explained and if I may read out your own words, the transcript page number
14 13660, you explained, I will use your own words: "Once the multi-party
15 came into existence in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was in 19 --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down while reading,
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
19 Q. "Once the multi-party system came into existence in
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that was in 1990, the political parties propose
21 members of their own nation to become members of certain structures that
22 were in charge of health care in Bosnia-Herzegovina." In using the term
23 "political parties proposed members of their own nation" sir, did you
24 mean members of their own political parties; is that what you meant?
25 A. No. They proposed members of their own nation and there was
1 the -- there weren't the reformist and Yugoslav parties. A Muslim was in
2 charge of the reformists, and some of the people here were in some of
3 those parties. I can, I'll repeat that. When multi-party policies were
4 introduced, the national parties proposed members of their own nation,
5 people, not of their own party, specialists, prominent specialists who
6 were capable of assuming certain duties concerning running the health
7 system in Bosnia-Herzegovina. There were also members from parties that
8 were not national parties from the reformist party and the Yugoslav party.
9 This person was in the Yugoslav party.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
12 Q. Sir, your name is in the document, isn't it? Your name has been
13 proposed as --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Did I hear the interpreters ask for the repetition of
15 a name or am I wrong?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, the interpreter did not hear
17 the name.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Under number seven, there is the
19 name Zorica Vujisic, Dr. Zorica Vujisic. She was a member of the Yugoslav
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
23 Q. And your name has been nominated in place of number two, isn't
24 that the case, sir?
25 A. That's correct.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Document may be returned, may the witness be
2 shown a map marked D1758.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The map has been admitted under seal, but it is not
4 clear in my recollection for what reason. But it could be...
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is possibly because the map indicates his
6 area of his residence and his workplace, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we turn into private session and deal with
8 the map in private session.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
11 [Private session]
13 Pages 16921-16933 – redacted – private session
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
3 Q. Sir, you testified that you saw an artillery school of the BH Army
4 located at the Faculty of Architecture.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. This is in addition to the three tanks you claim to see in the
7 very same compound?
8 A. I saw the tanks around the buildings. They don't enter the
9 buildings and the school. I saw in the building, and I spent some time
10 there too, about 20 minutes.
11 Q. So this school, artillery school, that you saw at the Faculty of
12 Architecture as well as the three tanks should be visible from the -- from
13 the route which go alongside the compound in which the faculties and the
14 three tanks you claim to see was situated?
15 A. I wasn't able to see the school from the building. I went into
16 the building and saw the school. But the tanks could be seen from the
18 Q. Weren't this road used regularly by UN personnel, including
19 members of the UNPROFOR as well as UN monitoring observers?
20 A. I didn't look at them very often, because it was a narrow road and
21 they used wider roads to go around in their vehicles.
22 Q. Both roads alongside, whether it is wider or narrow, both roads go
23 alongside this compound on either side; isn't that the case, sir?
24 A. There is one road, Hasana Brkica Road on one side, and behind the
25 complex, the Kosevo complex, there is a narrow road, it's the Ivan Tomic
2 Q. Sir, have you seen UN personnel at the Kosevo Hospital? Have you
3 seen the persons in the blue berets and the blue helmets at the Kosevo
5 A. I saw General Rose and I saw a Swiss doctor, her name was, I
6 think -- I can't remember, but she came to see me personally on two
8 Q. So you knew --
9 A. She was a representative of the International Red Cross.
10 Q. So you did know members of the UN, as well as members of
11 the -- including members of the UNPROFOR who visited the hospital, you
12 knew them?
13 A. I don't know what was UNPROFOR and what the other
14 structures were, but I could come across them in the town and within the
15 complex of the Kosevo Hospital. But I couldn't distinguish between the
17 Q. Would you agree with me that UN personnel visited the hospital
18 practically daily?
19 A. Well, that was not the case while I was working there.
20 Q. Wasn't there a generator provided to the hospital by the UN, sir?
21 A. Yes, but it would work for half a year. They even brought fuel
22 for it, but that was not done on a daily basis.
23 Q. Wasn't the refueling of the generator and the maintenance of the
24 generator done by the UN?
25 A. Yes, but that's not done every day, but when necessary, and
1 sometimes that's in 15 days' time.
2 Q. Sir, would you at least agree that the hospital complex was
3 regularly visited by UN personnel, if not daily?
4 A. That's correct. They sometimes came to visit the hospital. I
5 couldn't say what the intervals were, but they really did come
7 Q. Did you have the opportunity to speak to any of them? You
8 mentioned the name of General Rose. Did you have an opportunity to speak
9 to -- have a conversation with one of them?
10 A. No. I was in the corridor when he passed by. There is one thing
11 that you have to understand, I was a Serbian and the foreigners didn't
12 have to come and see me, only the International Red Cross came to see me.
13 Q. Did you have any problems about speaking to UN personnel or
14 contacting them in any way? Did you personally have a problem? Or did
15 you feel you had a problem?
16 A. Madam, the people who took them around the hospitals were
17 Bosniaks. They didn't bring them to Serbs. Only on two occasions did
18 they come to see me personally. They went to a different office, and it
19 was the representative of the International Red Cross, who was a doctor
20 from Switzerland. She was the only person who came to see me personally.
21 Q. Sir, I don't mention your position because we are in open session,
22 but considering the position you held, did it not occur to you to complain
23 to the UN personnel or perhaps the member of the Red Cross who came to
24 visit you to -- about the three tanks which are located in the adjoining
25 compound or the artillery school which was located at the Faculty of
2 A. Believe me, they were able to see that just like I was, but I
3 didn't speak to them and I wasn't able to tell them about this.
4 Q. So as you say you -- you are aware that they themselves saw this,
5 the three tanks, you came to have seen and the faculty of -- the school
6 which was located at the Faculty of Architecture? You just said they
7 could themselves see it.
8 A. You have to understand one thing: Whenever the international
9 forces were in the vicinity the army took no action, but when they left,
10 the army went into action. That was -- those were the tactics employed.
11 Q. Sir, apart from UN personnel, did you ever see journalists come
12 into the hospital?
13 A. On several occasions journalists did come, particularly after
14 larger scale operations when there were more injured persons and following
15 them, there would be journalists coming, very frequently.
16 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to speak to any one of these
18 A. I only spoke once with, I think his name was John Brown, an
19 American reporter. In fact a doctor had linked us up with the request
20 that he take me out of Sarajevo. Unfortunately he left three days later,
21 and I remained.
22 Q. When did you speak to John Brown, sir, the person -- the
23 journalist named John Brown, when was this?
24 A. That was in the summer of 1993, probably May.
25 Q. Did you inform him of the three tanks you saw in the adjoining
1 compound or the artillery school you claim to have seen at the Faculty of
3 A. No. I only spoke about my request that I be taken out of Sarajevo
4 at that time or at that moment I wasn't interested in tanks.
5 Q. So, is it your impression that you were not interested in bringing
6 to a journalist's attention the fact that there was an element which posed
7 a risk to the hospital just adjoining the hospital complex, even though
8 you had the opportunity, is it your impression, and you were only
9 interested in being taken out of Sarajevo?
10 A. That is true. Because any word that I would have spoken at that
11 time in that context would have represented an additional risk for me.
12 Don't forget that I was persecuted in the lift and the only thing that
13 saved me was that a nurse took me up to the -- up all the way up with the
14 elevator, and she saved me from being killed. And of course in such
15 circumstances, a fear develops and along with it, the wish to leave this
17 Q. Sir, are you saying that you lived in fear during your stay in
19 A. I lived in fear -- I lived in an atmosphere of fear which
20 occasionally became fear.
21 Q. So you did live in an atmosphere of fear, and you wanted to get
22 out of it or remove yourself from that situation of fear?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Did your family live with you in Sarajevo during the period you
25 worked and lived in Sarajevo, sir?
1 A. The children did not. They were in Novi Sad in Yugoslavia, and my
2 wife in the summer of 1993, I think it was June, she also went out and
3 went to be with the children and I remained by myself.
4 Q. So why did your children and the wife leave Sarajevo? Were
5 you -- is it that you were scared for their lives and you asked them to
7 A. I feared -- I was in fear for their lives and I thought it was
8 better that they -- for them to be elsewhere. You see, 200.000 people
9 left Sarajevo.
10 Q. So apart from yourself, sir, there were others, the civilians who
11 too lived in fear, like you, sir, during this period?
12 A. That's correct. They lived in -- with a certain amount of fear,
13 with a certain amount of danger, that's true.
14 Q. In your examination-in-chief, sir, you stated that you did not
15 observe fear amongst the population, and let me quote you. Transcript is
16 now page 13651. Let me quote you, sir. "However, I was not able to see
17 some unusual behaviour among the population that would not correspond the
18 situation around us. A person who is afraid has an improper reaction to
19 the situation which one finds himself. This is what we call panic, and I
20 did not observe panic. The hospital continued to operate as did schools
21 although they schedule was somewhat different. But still they continued
22 to operate. People even went to bars and restaurants and got married."
23 You indicated, sir, in testifying in examination-in-chief that
24 life seemed to proceed quite normally, yet now you do admit that people
25 lived under fear.
1 A. I reiterate what I said, everybody felt a certain dose of fear,
2 but they were not living in panic, that is a different thing, although I
3 am not a psychiatrist, but panic in my opinion means that that would be
4 behaviour inadequate or not for the circumstances the person was living
5 in. But if a person is worrying, is concerned that something unpleasant
6 will happen, then that is a dose of fear, of worry. I lived with a little
7 dose of fear. You cannot live in a state of panic. You cannot work in a
8 state of panic, but you can live and work with a certain dose of fear, and
9 that's what we did.
10 Q. Sir, your testimony was that you left Sarajevo in January 1994.
13 Q. After your release, after the arrest, sir, you did not go back to
14 Sarajevo and you lived elsewhere, isn't that the case, sir?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. During -- after you left Sarajevo, sir, where did you live or
17 where did you work?
18 A. I lived in the Serbian Sarajevo and after the war finished and
19 since the war has finished, I have been living in Trebinje.
20 Q. So when you lived in the Serbian Sarajevo as you put it, was there
21 any risk or any threat to you or were you free to do as you please?
22 A. I didn't live freely. I didn't like to live there, but I didn't
23 have any other conditions to live in. I was in the hospital, I lived in
24 the hospital throughout this time. I was in a ward, in a medical hospital
25 ward by myself, but it was a hospital ward.
1 Q. During this period, sir, did you not have the opportunity to
2 inform the UN personnel of the three tanks you observed in the adjoining
3 compound of the Kosevo Hospital or about the artillery school at the
4 Faculty of Architecture which you claim to have seen? And I am saying
5 after you left Sarajevo, after your arrest and you were living in the
6 Serbian Sarajevo. Did you not have the opportunity or did you not think
7 it proper to inform the UN?
8 A. We all believed that they knew this, and that they had seen it,
9 and that any additional information would have been superfluous or
11 Q. You did not think it appropriate to take that additional step to
12 inform, in case it has not been observed?
13 A. I didn't think in this way. They could have read it in the press,
14 published in the Serbian Sarajevo, and I believe that I have read this.
15 Q. Which press --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne apart from the next question which I
17 will allow you to put to the witness, but would the nonreporting of three
18 things not be a subject sufficiently dealt with until now?
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I will just ask one more
20 question with regard to that and move on. Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. You referred to the press in which people could have read about
22 the tanks. Which newspaper or which media are you referring to, sir?
23 Could you specifically mention the name of the newspaper, if it was a
25 A. I am speaking about the television of Serbian Sarajevo, and I am
1 speaking about newspaper a Serbian Oslobodjenje.
2 Q. Sir, during the time you worked in Kosevo, did you ever go out of
3 the hospital complex to treat patients, if I may use the term, did you
4 ever make "house calls"?
5 A. I didn't make house calls ever, and only on one occasion a deputy
6 director for economic matters of the Kosevo Hospital in 1993 took me to
7 operate on her sister in the city hospital. That is my only trip when I
8 went to that hospital, the only time that I went out of the Kosevo
9 Hospital and performed my duty as a doctor.
10 Q. So that was the only time you left the Kosevo Hospital complex to
11 treat any patients?
12 A. The only time.
13 Q. Sir, in the examination-in-chief you stated that you went to the
14 dental faculty to treat the wife of Juka Prazina whose headquarters you
15 claimed was situated at the dental faculty near the Kosevo Hospital. So
16 by your -- by what you just stated in your previous testimony that you
17 left the hospital to treat Juka Prazina at the dental faculty is
18 completely incorrect?
19 A. The dental clinic is very near behind the Kosevo Hospital. I went
20 in my medical doctor's coat. I believe that that was within the Kosevo
21 Hospital complex. That's why I said I went to see Juka Prazina's wife.
22 But the other city hospital is in the other part of town. Because up to
23 the dental clinic we were just all walking normally as if we were anywhere
24 in the Kosevo Hospital.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I see the clock. I could
1 perhaps come to a convenient point and stop or perhaps we could stop at
2 this time?
3 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need, Ms. Mahindaratne
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: About another half hour, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Another half hour.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I believe -- yes, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you give me one second --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to ask you
9 if I can finish tonight. I have duties elsewhere and just like last time,
10 I am asking you, requesting to finish tonight. I have asked last time to
11 be here just for two days and I have been here now six days.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will do our utmost best. That's what I can
13 promise you. In your interest and the interest of the Tribunal and of the
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, can I just come to a convenient
16 point and then take the break
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you can do that in not more than a couple of
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well. Mr. President.
20 Q. Sir --
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, perhaps we could take the
22 break at this time because I would need to show him the map to proceed.
23 That would take some time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until five minutes to 6.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, on the basis of the bookkeeping of
3 the Chamber, there is 24 minutes left, and cross-examination as it went on
4 until now, gives no reason for the Chamber to grant any more time than
5 these 24 minutes.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into
8 the courtroom.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown map marked number
11 D1758. Mr. President, maybe we have to go into private session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we go into private session.
13 [Private session]
13 Pages 16946-16950 – redacted – private session
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE ORIE: We are now in open session and could you please
2 proceed and could you please wait until the cursor stops moving.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
4 Q. Sir do you remember an incident where the abdominal surgery clinic
5 was shelled in the last week of November 1993, and where two nurses were
6 killed, are you aware of this incident?
7 A. I heard about the shelling, but I didn't hear about the deaths.
8 And I think that this is an incorrect information.
9 Q. Is it your impression, sir, that you never heard that the
10 abdominal surgery clinic was shelled and two nurses were killed while
11 three doctors and a technician were injured, is it your impression that
12 you never heard of this or never learnt or this which was given much
14 A. I heard about the shelling of the clinic for abdominal surgery but
15 I am categorically saying that nobody was killed. It is one compound of
16 one hospital, that is 100, 200 metres from where I worked and I would have
17 know. And I knew all the doctors in that clinic. I would have to heard
18 about somebody getting killed. After all I was a medical director and
19 this information could have come to me in any case.
20 Q. Apart from the doctors, did you also know nurses who were working
21 or attached to the Kosevo Hospital?
22 A. I didn't know all the junior doctors of the Kosevo Hospital.
23 There were 3.000 doctors and nurses, so no one doctor, no one person would
24 have known every single doctor or nurse.
25 Q. Sir, did you know a nurse by the name of Heco Sefika?
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President.
2 Q. Sir, have you visited the Kosevo Hospital complex since the
3 cessation of hostilities, perhaps recently?
4 A. Last year I went to the orthopaedic clinic with my friends. They
5 were students of mine, or assistants, in fact.
6 Q. Have you --
7 A. We were very well received.
8 Q. On that visit or perhaps before, have you observed or have you
9 seen the memorial erected in the hospital premises in memory of the
10 employees of the hospital who were killed due to shelling of the hospital
12 A. I drove up to the orthopaedic clinic, to the entrance to that
13 clinic, and I really didn't see that plaque. I was given to the
14 orthopaedic clinic.
15 Q. Do you know that there is such a plaque there?
16 A. No, I am not aware of that. I didn't see it. And the colleagues
17 with me didn't speak to me about it.
18 Q. Sir, you used the word "plaque," and I used the word "memorial".
19 How do you know it was a plaque?
20 A. I said plaque by chance, it is called a plaque or a memorial, you
21 know, whenever you have a memorial you have a plaque with the name on it.
22 So when we talk about memorials we also mention plaques. These terms are
23 synonymous for us.
24 Q. Sir, you said during the times you were working at the hospital
25 you were in charge of admissions of patients?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Could you perhaps give an average or average estimate of how many
3 patients were admitted to the hospital during the period May 1992 to
4 January 1994? Perhaps an approximate figure.
5 A. There were days when there wasn't a single wounded person. I was
6 responsible for them. I wasn't responsible for other patients. But there
7 were days when 100 wounded would be admitted, even over 100, and this
8 includes those who were slightly wounded and those who were seriously
10 Q. My question, sir, to you is whether you could give an approximate
11 figure of the number of admissions, wounded patients who were admitted to
12 the Kosevo Hospital? I am talking about the total amount during the
13 period May 1992 to January 1994, the time you were there, and I am
14 referring to the period of conflict.
15 A. While I was there, I think the number was between 3 and 4.000, but
16 this is a very rough estimate.
17 Q. Did you have the opportunity to perhaps -- I withdraw that.
18 Can you give an approximate figure of about how many civilians,
19 wounded civilians, were admitted during this period?
20 A. Again, this is a very rough estimate, I think 75 or 80 per cent
21 were soldiers and the remainder, 20 or 23 per cent were civilians.
22 Q. I asked you for the figures. Or how did you conclude that 70 or
23 75 per cent of the admissions were soldiers?
24 A. Well, when we included -- when we took away the old people and
25 children and people who weren't wearing uniforms, when we took that number
1 away from the number of the soldiers, we were left with the figure for the
3 Q. That is true but to give a percentage you would have to have the
4 numbers. Did you have the opportunity to make a survey or assess how many
5 wounded civilians and how many wounded military personnel were admitted?
6 A. A minute ago I said 3 to 4.000, and they were all listed in the
7 same list, and we mentioned who was a civilian and who was -- we mentioned
8 who was a civilian and who was a soldier. You can work out what the
9 number of the soldiers were on the basis of the percentages given, 75
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, your 24 minutes are over.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I could perhaps be given two more questions,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Two more questions I will allow you, yes, please.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Sir, you stated in examination-in-chief that you saw armed
17 individuals being admitted to the hospital, you said sometimes personnel
18 in uniform as well as persons with arms were admitted to the hospital.
19 And I am referring to transcript page number 13628.
20 A. Madam, you're correct. There were people who were in civilian
21 clothing wearing carrying weapons and we considered them to be soldiers.
22 I considered them to be soldiers.
23 Q. Sir is it your impression -- is it your position that injured,
24 wounded people were admitted to the hospital still carrying arms?
25 A. There were weapons in each corner of the hospital. Most of the
1 wounded people came with weapons on them. One such man -- one such man
2 also ran after me so I ran away to the roof of the building.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, one more question as a follow up
4 to that response.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that is really the last question.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
7 Q. When you said that wounded persons were admitted to the hospital
8 with weapons on them, are you suggesting that they were carrying weapons,
9 there were weapons placed on these persons, wounded people?
10 A. They were bearing weapons, and many had weapons on the hospital
11 beds that they were lying on. Security was just unable to do anything.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That was my last question, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is there any need to re-examine the
15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions to put to
17 you, Mr. DP51.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Only one question and my question is: You
20 said that you lived with a certain amount of fear. When you said that
21 were you referring to a special fear because you were a Serb living within
22 the BH population or a general fear as a normal person living in a place
23 where a war was being held?
24 A. There were two causes for my fear. Firstly, I could have been
25 killed like anyone else in Sarajevo; and secondly, because I was a Serb
1 and on the few occasions that I went into town, I always went with Muslim
2 friends and they still visit me today. So there were two reasons for my
4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No further questions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi always has one or more questions for
7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 [Interpretation] I would just like to clarify something. Firstly,
9 you said and I'll quote you so that there are no misunderstandings [In
10 English] "It is possible to hear."
11 [Interpretation] It is possible to hear a shell, it is possible to
12 hear its trajectory because it has a sound which is similar to the sound
13 of a plane. Is this also true for mortar shells?
14 A. For mortar shells? But there weren't any mortar shells. Mortar
15 shells don't have such a range.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I am quoting you because you
17 spoke about tank fire. You said you could hear the shell, in the air you
18 could hear the sound. So my question is, did you yourself hear the sound
19 of a mortar shell, for example, could you distinguish between the sound
20 produced by a mortar shell and the sound produced by a tank shell?
21 A. No, I can't. I am not such an expert.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. My second question
23 concerns the following: When you were testifying you said that you could
24 see the tank firing the first shell, and then you would flee. I'd like to
25 know whether you fled because you were afraid that shells would hit the
1 hospital or was it possible that -- was an exchange of fire possible?
2 A. I apologise. We weren't afraid of the guns, the field guns in
3 front of the hospital. Soldiers wouldn't make such mistakes, but we were
4 afraid of the response from the other side because of small errors and
5 because the trajectory was long, the hospital could be hit.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So if I have understood you
7 correctly, you were afraid of a possible reaction?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And my last question, could you
10 tell me the name of -- could you tell me again about Juka Prazina's wife,
11 what was her work?
12 A. I apologise. I said that a minute ago, she worked in an
13 outpatient clinic in the town of Sarajevo before the war, and Juka, well,
14 he was a freelance manager.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Just a minute. I will interrupt
16 you because we are running out of time. I thought she was a nurse.
17 A. Yes, a nurse in an outpatient clinic in Sarajevo.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, and she was wounded in the
19 cheek, the joint?
20 A. Yes, yes, in the cheek.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Could you say when this incident
22 took place, was it while she had -- while she was performing her duties or
23 was she somewhere else or at home or perhaps you don't know. Could you
24 provide us with more information?
25 A. I can't. I can't. I saw her when she was lying in the clinic,
1 when she spent five or six days in the clinic, and where she was wounded
2 and what the conditions were I really don't know.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was this wound caused by a
4 bullet, a shell fragment, what was the cause of the wound, as far as you
6 A. It was a fragment of a projectile, an explosive device, that's
7 what caused the wound, a fragment of a projectile.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Since I have no further questions to you, this
11 concludes your testimony in this court. I can imagine that you are
12 relieved that you will be able to return. I wanted to thank you very much
13 not only for coming, as I ask most of them, but even for -- just if you
14 have one second. Could you please put your earphones on. I wanted to
15 thank you not just for coming, but even for coming twice, which is quite
16 unusual. Thank you very much for answering all the questions of the
17 parties and the questions of the bench. And I hope that you will again
18 have a safe journey home. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good-bye.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through
22 the documents.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1757 under seal, pseudonym sheet; Exhibit
24 D1758 under seal, map marked by witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Both documents are admitted into evidence since there
1 are no objections, 1757 under seal. Yes. I am making a mistake, the map
2 also under seal, 1758. I take it -- yes. I made a mistake. Both
3 documents are admitted under seal.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, although usually using the time up to
7 the very last minute, considers it perhaps better not to start the
8 examination of the next witness. If there would be any other issue to be
9 raised, we have nine minutes left, so it could be done at this very
10 moment. But I see that none of the parties has any issue. Yes,
11 Mr. Ierace. Yes, I wondered whether --
12 MR. IERACE: I can hardly let the opportunity to go past, Mr.
13 President, but I think this is relatively uncontentious. Can I simply
14 confirm the identity of the next witness, perhaps in private session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn into private session.
16 [Private session]
13 Page 16961 – redacted – private session
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 6.41 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
18 the 9th day of December, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.