1 Wednesday, 8 January 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Stanislav Galic.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 I hope that everyone had a time to -- had a pleasant time at
10 Christmas, and I hope that everyone -- although, the Chamber is fully
11 aware that the circumstances are not the same to everyone in this
12 courtroom, but nevertheless, that you have a good and healthy year 2003.
13 The Chamber has been informed that there are no specific issues to
14 deal with right at the beginning of this first hearing in the year 2003,
15 which would mean that the Defence could call its first witness, which as
16 far as I can see on my list will be Mykhaylo Alex Androvich Tsynchenko.
17 Is that correct? Yes.
18 Then Mr. Usher is trying to locate -- he's gone already -- in
19 order to escort the witness into the courtroom.
20 Mr. Mundis.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the most recent letter that we have
22 from the Defence, dated 26 December, indicates that the first witness
23 would be Sergij Moroz.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I have in front of me a letter of the 6th of January,
25 2003, sent on that same day by telefax, indicating that Sergij Moroz, due
1 to illness, is unable to appear as previously scheduled.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the registrar has kindly loaned me a
3 copy of this letter. This is the first time the Prosecution has seen
4 this. I see it's clearly marked to the attention of Mr. Ierace, but
5 neither our case manager Ms. McCreath nor myself have seen this letter
6 prior to today.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That raises the next issue, whether --
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Simply, we have in front of us
11 the receipts and telecopies dated the 6th of January, 2003, and the same
12 numbers as those we normally and usually use to communicate with the
13 Prosecution. Therefore, the same day the letter was sent and received by
14 telefax, and that is where we stand.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The usual number is the number of the registry,
16 may I ask you, Madam Registrar, or is it the number of the Prosecutor, the
17 Prosecutor's Office, the OTP?
18 Could you please then -- that number is, Mr. Piletta-Zanin -- what
19 telefax number has been used?
20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly. We have several
21 numbers in front of us. 512-8219, then 512-8637, then 512-5166, and this
22 one twice.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has it been sent to all these numbers or is
24 it -- [Interpretation] was it sent to all these numbers?
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, quite. The last twice,
1 to the last number twice.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, on what number would you expect to
3 receive telefax messages?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to be practical. Is the Prosecution
15 in the position that it could cross-examine the witness which is called
16 right now?
17 MR. MUNDIS: I believe the Prosecution could be ready to go,
18 Mr. President, with the perhaps caveat that I see from the letter dated 6
19 January that the Defence has only two witnesses scheduled for this week.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. MUNDIS: Perhaps depending on the testimony of the first
22 witness, if we might be permitted if necessary a brief recess in light of
23 the fact that there are only two witnesses. That should not present a
24 problem. Perhaps we can take events as they unfold.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber would like to be informed
1 about what will be the standard procedure of sending telefaxes, and what
2 numbers will be the numbers that do not create any confusion.
3 So we'll proceed now, having heard the position of the
4 Prosecution, but the Chamber would like to be informed on how the
5 communication technically proceeds.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness
8 into the courtroom.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tsynchenko, do you hear me in a language you
11 understand? And what language is that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Russian.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So the translation to Russian functions
15 I do understand that you also speak and understand some English
16 and that you would not oppose against giving a solemn declaration that
17 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in
18 English. If you would prefer, however, to do that in Russian as well,
19 then we first have to ask the interpreters to translate the solemn
20 declaration. But if you would not oppose against giving the solemn
21 declaration in English, then I would like to invite you to stand up and
22 give the solemn declaration in English. But if you would prefer to do it
23 in Russian, then please tell me.
24 THE WITNESS: I am Tsynchenko Mykhaylo. I solemnly declare that I
25 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
2 Mr. Tsynchenko, you will first be examined by counsel for the
4 WITNESS: MYKHAYLO TSYNCHENKO
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, is it you or is it Mr. Piletta-Zanin
7 who will be examining the witness?
8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleague will be examining the
9 witness today.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.
14 A. [In English] I'm ready.
15 Q. I assume that you can hear me well. The first question that we
16 would like to put to you is the following: Could you in a few words tell
17 us, please, what was your professional background, that is, educational
18 background and your career, briefly.
19 A. Well, I was born in 1951 in the city of Kiev. I graduated from
20 the Kiev general troop command college, majoring in being an officer of
21 general troops, the infantry, I would say. I served in the Army of the
22 Soviet Union at the positions of the commander of a platoon, commander of
23 a unit, deputy commander of a battalion, officer of the staff of a corps.
24 Then I graduated from the military academy named after Frunze in Moscow.
25 And upon the graduation, I was commander of a corps in different positions
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and management of different level from the army to the military district.
2 And as of 1991, I continued the service in the army of the Ukraine in the
3 Ministry of Defence at the position of the chief or senior commander of
4 the Chief of Staff and head of a unit in the Chief of Staff.
5 As of 1993, November 1993, under the quota designated by the
6 United Nations for Ukraine, I was nominated to the position of deputy
7 commander of a sector of UN troops in Sarajevo, the Sarajevo sector. At
8 that position I was serving until July 1994.
9 After the completion of the term of my stay within the UN troops
10 in Sarajevo, I came back to Ukraine, where I continued my service in the
11 Ministry of Defence, and then I retired into reserve.
12 Currently I'm working in a civilian enterprise or firm.
13 Q. Thank you, witness. We are going to focus above all on the period
14 that you have just mentioned, that is, November 1993 up to July 1994.
15 Could you please first of all specify --
16 A. [In English] -- No translation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is translation now?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Let me repeat. Thank you for your comments, witness. We are
21 going to focus on the period from November 1993 to July 1994. You spoke
22 here about the functions you held. Could you tell us, who was - and I
23 expect you to give us the name - who was your direct superior in the
25 A. Well, in the hierarchy, I can say that the brigade general Andre
1 Soubirou [Realtime transcript read in error "Simuru"]. Shall I give more
3 Q. Could you please repeat the name.
4 A. Andre Soubirou, brigade general.
5 Q. Are you perhaps referring to Mr. Andre Soubirou, S-o-u-b-i-r-o-u?
6 A. There was a brigade general, and he had enormous military
7 experience. I know that he's now in the position --
8 Q. No, witness. Excuse me. My question was simply to get the name
9 from you. It wasn't spelled out properly. Was this person, Mr. Andre
10 Soubirou? Just yes or no, please.
11 A. [In English] I can read here. Not Souberou.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact -- I think as a matter of
13 fact if the parties would agree that he's referring to --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- Mr. President, let me spell
15 the name of the person that everyone knows. So the name is
16 S-o-u-b-e-r-o-u -- after "B" it's "I." S-o-u-b-i-r-o-u. So we have
17 Soubirou. Thank you.
18 Q. For how long was General Soubirou -- for how long did this general
19 hold the position in Sarajevo?
20 A. Well, I think he arrived approximately -- he arrived from Zagreb
21 the 19th of November. Either 11th or 19th -- or 11th or the 12th. Excuse
22 me. I arrived from Sarajevo and General Soubirou was already in command
23 of the troops of the sector. When I was leaving in July of 1994, General
24 Soubirou was saying goodbye to me. How long he stayed there, I cannot
25 tell. I can only judge from the experience of my colleagues who came
2 Q. Witness, could you tell us, what was the frequency of the contacts
3 that you had personally and professionally with General Soubirou.
4 A. Well, maybe five times a day or six times a day. Sometimes 12,
5 sometimes for several days we did not see each other, when we were going
6 to different sectors. But practically every day we would meet 4, 5, 6, or
7 up to 10 times.
8 Q. Witness, did you have occasion during your stay in Sarajevo to
9 meet General Galic, yes or no?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. When you did have occasion to meet him, was this in a
12 professional context or in some other context?
13 A. Well, that was purely professional encounters which could be
14 happening every day or every other day or once a week. Whenever the
15 situation required that.
16 Q. Would you please remind us what was your military rank at the time
17 when you had contact with General Galic.
18 A. Well, first of all I would like to clarify that my military degree
19 is Colonel. But when I was meeting with General Galic, we would go to
20 personal encounters, when we were talking through liaison officers and
21 through radio stations, we were talking also through our observers and
22 liaison officers. When there were meetings in person, then we would go
23 with General Soubirou.
24 Q. Why did you speak through the intermediary of other officers,
1 A. Well, we were in the staff of our sector, and General Galic was in
2 Lukavica and his staff. That is why we had to make appointments through
3 other officers and we had to talk so that liaison officers would schedule
4 appointments for us, because everyone has his own functions, military
5 functions, and it is not possible just to go there and find General Galic
6 right on the spot immediately.
7 Q. Thank you. Witness, when did these meetings occur?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may just point out. This
10 material is not covered in the 65 ter provided by the Defence to the
11 Prosecution. I just wanted to place that on the record.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is on record, since you've mentioned it.
13 I do understand from your remark that it's not your intention to
14 have any oral argument on this issue. We had that before. But you just
15 wanted it to be put on the record.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Especially in view of the
17 fact that we -- the Prosecution did not anticipate this witness earlier
18 on. We may need to make an application for recess before
19 cross-examination. Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may then proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. We won't make any
22 comments now. We will proceed immediately.
23 Q. Witness, when these meetings occurred, was there any kind of
24 protocol applied so that officers of a certain rank could address officers
25 of the same rank? Was that some sort of rule?
1 A. Well, if I may, I would like to say a few words about the
2 procedures of service and reaction towards everything that was happening
3 there. Well, the protocol would signify that when we were preparing some
4 bilateral meeting or something official for the meeting. But when it was
5 necessary to solve some issue regarding some cease-fire from one side or
6 the other from within Sarajevo, where I also had a chance to meet with the
7 command at different levels, the commanders of brigades, Bosnian, as well
8 as a chance to meet at levels of commanders of brigade at the other side.
9 So we had very quick response to various circumstances where I was
10 sent by General Soubirou whenever there was need for intervention. This
11 is why no protocol was envisaged -- protocols were taken or held only at
12 official meetings in the government. There was mostly meetings by General
13 Soubirou, by our political adviser Viktor Andreev and also General Rose
14 and they had meetings with the Prime Minister and the president of Bosnia
15 Herzegovina. Also, whenever they would go to Pale and have meetings with
16 the commanders of the troops from the Serbian army and the president of
17 the Republika Srpska.
18 Then we had official protocols or minutes of meetings were taken.
19 As far as I know, no official minutes of meetings were taken at other
20 level meetings or no protocol was envisaged. I was present at a number of
21 meetings. I don't remember how many meetings, but usually General
22 Soubirou would always hold negotiations in person with General Galic. I
23 would come with him together, but I would work at my level usually with
24 the Chief of Staff or with his officers.
25 Q. [No interpretation]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: On the screen I see that we have a translation
2 problem. I think it has been restored now.
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think you said that -- you asked the witness
4 to allow you to stop him, and you told him that -- to come to the core of
5 your question.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Witness, could you please --
8 JUDGE ORIE: We're having now translation again. Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you
10 Q. Witness, could you specify the following: When these discussions
11 occurred, was there any kind of protocol in the sense that the discussions
12 were between equals? For example, from one general to another, from a
13 colonel -- between a colonel, between two colonels, between two majors,
14 and that sort of thing.
15 A. Well, I can say only that General Galic preferred to meet with
16 General Soubirou. I can also quote him. He said, "We are generals. We
17 will talk to ourselves. And you, you are a colonel, so talk to my
18 colonels." Well, as far as protocols are concerned and no protocols or
19 minutes were taken. Usually after the meeting, General Soubirou would --
20 Q. Witness, I will interrupt you. Should I understand your testimony
21 being that General Galic addressed you at least once saying "you are a
22 colonel, so I won't talk to you. Talk to my colonel"? Is that what
23 you're telling us?
24 A. That's right. Those were his words verbatim and I remember that
1 Q. Very well. Do you know whether General Galic applied this
2 protocol as a general rule, yes or no? Have you understood my question?
3 A. Not quite.
4 Q. Do you know whether in general General Galic respected these
5 protocol rules; that is to say, "I am a general. I only want to speak to
6 another general," et cetera.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please specify the question to the
9 extent --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- To the witness whether this protocol was always
12 applied as far as he knows.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a moment. Mr. President,
14 for the sake of the transcript, your question wasn't entirely reproduced
15 in the transcript. I don't know if we have technical problems of some
16 kind here. But I have noticed that on occasion certain elements are
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might be due to the fact that I spoke when
19 translation was still going on. I will not do that again. But I asked
20 you to specify the question to the extent whether the witness could tell
21 us whether this protocol was always applied as far as he was present.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. In this case, I
23 won't paraphrase you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Witness, you heard the question. Could you answer it.
25 A. When we went to see him in order to solve any problem, together
1 with General Soubirou, with his assistant Major Bergeron, together with
2 our officers, perhaps, we could meet with General Galic when his officers
3 were present as well. If we needed to solve a problem and we came only
4 two of us, then he would normally just remain with General Soubirou and
5 discuss the problem with him. I wasn't quite sure what you -- what was
6 the gist of your question.
7 Q. Thank you. But I think you've answered the question perhaps even
8 without realising that. Thank you.
9 I would now like to turn to a different subject, witness, and I
10 would like to examine the issue of destruction. You spent -- you lived
11 for about six months, a little more than six months in Sarajevo. Could
12 you tell us where destruction was caused to buildings in Sarajevo, as far
13 as you can remember, where the majority of the destruction was caused.
14 A. The largest destruction was in the area close to the airport.
15 There were checkpoints there. I hope I'm using the right word,
16 "checkpoints." There were Bosnian and Serbian checkpoints. That area was
17 fully destroyed. There was not a single building intact there along the
19 There was large destruction in the area of the bridge over the
20 Milatska river in Grbavica, and in the area of Ilidza. Many buildings
21 were destroyed there. In addition to that, high-rise buildings in
22 downtown Sarajevo were destroyed as well. These high-rise buildings were
23 destroyed partially. Some floors were destroyed, especially on the sixth,
24 seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth floors. These floors were not
1 In addition to that, the area near the stadium was also destroyed,
2 the stadium that was used during the Olympic games for ice sports, such as
3 hockey and ice skating and so on.
4 In addition to that, there were -- there was some destruction
5 visible on the outskirts of the city in the mountainous area. As one
6 would leave the city and head towards the mountains, one could see certain
7 buildings destroyed there. If you would give me a map, I would be able to
8 point out these areas for you.
9 Q. Yes. In a minute we will show you a map, but first of all I would
10 like you to specify a few issues. You spoke about areas close to the
11 airport. Do you remember the names of these areas?
12 A. If you would give me a map, then I would be able to be more
14 Q. -- A map later. You spoke about the higher storeys of high-rise
15 buildings, the sixth, the seventh floor, et cetera. Why were these
16 buildings or these floors, why were they not inhabited and why were they
17 damaged, at least partially?
18 A. Well, that's quite understandable. If there was some kind of an
19 exchange of fire, then it was a guided fire, and these floors were
20 targeted. There were no windowpanes on those floors. And one could see,
21 for example, a floor with apartments on it and one could see through the
22 apartments on that floor, because this was a direct fire. All of this
23 took place before I arrived. When I arrived in Sarajevo, this -- examples
24 of destruction were already present there.
25 Q. Very well, witness. In the outskirts that you mentioned, since
1 you spoke about the airport area, did you have the opportunity to move to
2 the centre, to move around the centre of the town, that is to say, the old
3 centre, yes or no?
4 A. Certainly. We went everywhere. We went -- I personally went
6 Q. Thank you. When you went to those areas, to the old centre --
7 when I say "the old centre," I'm referring to what we call the old town,
8 the Stari Grad, that area. What can you tell us -- could you please wait
9 for me to finish the question, please. What can you tell us about the
10 state of the buildings, the state of the property in that part of the
11 town, that is to say, in the centre of the town?
12 A. In the downtown area, the theatre building was destroyed, fully
13 destroyed. In addition to that, the library building, which was
14 considered as one of the most important buildings in town before the war
15 was also destroyed. It was a rare example of that type of architecture.
16 And then there were some areas that were damaged, not destroyed.
17 There's an area in that part of town where there are three
18 temples. There was an Orthodox church, a Catholic church, and a mosque.
19 All of them were damaged but not destroyed. In downtown, in every
20 building there were residents. They lived on lower floors or in the
21 basement area, but almost every building was inhabited. It is difficult
22 now for me to pinpoint exactly which buildings were destroyed and which
23 were not.
24 Q. For the French translation, uninhabited -- no, I apologise. I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I'd like to turn now to the buildings in the old centre, witness.
2 Was the extent of damage comparable, yes or no, to what happened at the
3 conflict lines themselves? Yes or no.
4 A. The extent of the damage is something that I cannot describe to
5 you now because I did not take any notes. I didn't take any footage.
6 There was a lot of journalists there who recorded that, and I believe that
7 the extent of damage is well known. Therefore, I wouldn't like to go into
8 that. But most of the buildings that were destroyed were located along
9 the areas where there was combat.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Just one question, one precise question: In
11 Sarajevo, did you see any religious sites, such as mosques, that had been
12 totally destroyed?
13 A. No. No. There were no completely destroyed --
14 Q. Thank you. I would now like you to tell us, and then we'll show
15 you a map -- could you tell us where you lived while you were in Sarajevo.
16 A. I lived in the PTT building, which is a building where the sector
17 headquarters was located. I hope the PTT building is a sufficient
19 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what you could see from your
20 windows. Or for the English booth, which direction did your windows face?
21 A. I faced the mountains, the mountainous area. Well, if we take
22 that this was the area where I was, this is where the PTT building was,
23 and it faced the mountains, just as I am now facing the distinguished
25 Q. The west?
1 A. North.
2 Q. Witness, I think we could now show you the map with the assistance
3 of the usher. Thank you. It's Exhibit D1819. It's the same map that we
4 are familiar with.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And we could put it on the
6 ELMO. Thank you.
7 Q. Witness, do you recognise the map that we can see on the screen?
8 A. Just a minute, please. Just a minute, please, because I can't see
9 it very well here. I think that this here is the PTT building --
10 Q. Just a minute, witness. You can't point to it on your screen.
11 You have to point to the map on your left.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. For the Russian booth, I
13 didn't say what you just said, but that's not that important. Thank you.
14 Q. Witness, do you recognise this?
15 A. Yes, I do. This is the PTT building. So from my window, I faced
16 Vitkovac, that area. This is what I could see from my window.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you point to that again, please. Could you
18 please point to the PTT building so that we can see that clearly.
19 A. This is the PTT building. And I faced Vitkovac. I could see
20 Vitkovac and this area here, the elevated area. This is what I could see
21 from my window.
22 Q. Very well.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness, for the sake of
24 the transcript, pointed to the building that bears the inscription "PTT"
25 on the map, and he then pointed to the area which is to the north,
1 north-east, let's say, beyond the Miljacka River.
2 Q. What can you tell us, witness, about what you could see from the
3 window of the PTT building in the direction that you indicated? And I'm
4 referring to weapons. Which weapons could you see?
5 A. Practically no weapons. I couldn't see any weapons from my
6 window. I could see explosions, fire exchanged in Vitkovac area. The
7 explosion and the fire mostly originated from the centre of Sarajevo. I
8 could see that. As to the weapons --
9 Q. Witness, perhaps I'll rephrase that question. Do you know whether
10 the forces, the interior forces that are sometimes called the presidency
11 forces, do you know whether they had heavy weapons, yes or no?
12 A. They certainly did. They certainly did have heavy weapons.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. I think the witness
15 has already answered the question and then this is an attempt to prod the
16 witness on further.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In the presence of the witness?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not at all. But I don't
20 think that the witness answered the question. The witness answered the
21 question that I put to him concerning what he could see. I'm not asking
22 him about what he could see, but I want to know what he knows, which is a
23 different matter. And apparently the Prosecution fail to realise this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
25 You may answer that question, whether you --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- knew whether there were --
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 Q. What do you know about the heavy weapons --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It has already been answered, I think, by now as a
6 response to your question, but -- the answer is, "They certainly did.
7 They certainly did have heavy weapons."
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
10 Q. Witness, since you said that the presidency forces had heavy
11 weapons, could you tell us what comes under this definition, under the
12 definition of "heavy weapons"?
13 A. Well, if you talk about the definition of the "heavy weapons" --
14 well, I can tell you as military, and I can tell you as this definition
15 would include any weapons of calibre over 12.5 millimetres. Anything
16 larger than a large calibre heavy machine-gun. These are mortars. Those
17 would be guns. Those would be tanks, the self-propelled vehicles or all
18 other types of artillery and weapons.
19 Q. I'll stop you there. Thank you. You mentioned mortars. Did you
20 ever hear mortars being fired in Sarajevo, yes or no?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, witness, do you remember any particular occasions
23 on which you could have heard mortars being fired while you were in the
24 PTT building, yes or no?
25 A. Well, I heard such shots both within the building and also during
1 my rounds across the positions. That was one of my functions during the
2 line of conflicts, and also I could see -- and I can point at the map --
3 that the line of confrontation -- it was in this area, in this area there
4 were some shots. And I can tell you that from both sides I could hear
5 mortar shellings.
6 Q. Witness, I'll interrupt you there. Let's stick to the exchanges
7 of fire or to mortars being fired. You told me that you had the
8 opportunity to hear mortars being fired from the PTT building. Is that
9 correct? Have I understood you correctly?
10 A. Both inside the PTT building and also when I was going in that
11 area. I both heard and I saw.
12 Q. But my question now concerns only what you could hear and then see
13 from the PTT building at a given point in time. Were you able to hear
14 mortars being fired and see something from your windows which faced the
15 north, yes or no?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us what this concerns.
18 A. Well, I can tell you only one thing, is that when we -- for more
19 than two months - and not only we but also the force of Mr. Akashi, de
20 Mello, and Victor Andreev and all others - when we all tried to make the
21 truce happen and the receive cease-fire happen. There were cases of
22 provocations both from the Bosnian side. And there were -- some open
23 provocations were take place, the open of fire was provocated. And from
24 the PTT building, it was -- in that area, where there were two or three
25 instances like this I can tell you.
1 On this occasion General Soubirou would meet with the commander of
2 the corps, of the Bosnian corps, and there were several shots. And on the
3 Serbian side they had good intelligence, rather good artillery
4 intelligence, which would notice such things from under the building of
5 the PTT those things were happening. And I can tell you that my window
6 was facing on the side and there was -- I had a balcony and there was also
7 a staircase, which would go down to the back door or it was also called
8 the back staircase. And there there is always a French soldier on duty
9 from the commander's corps and he was always observing these things. And
10 after these shellings I remember there was a time about 2100 or 2000 or
11 8.00 p.m. or 9.00 p.m., when the car came and within about 400 metres from
12 the PTT and fired -- and made an assault -- and made a mortar shot towards
13 the Serbian side, and immediately that soldier knocked on my door and
14 said, "Excuse me, sir. We have such a situation." And I saw a car
16 And I am saying that this was a purely Bosnian thing because
17 closer to PTT -- we had PTT security from the UN side and also further on
18 there were police stations. That is why no cars, civilian or any other
19 type of cars, could be operational in that area at that hour.
20 Q. Yes. Thank you. You used the term "a car," a vehicle. Did you
21 see that vehicle with your own eyes? I'm talking about the vehicle
22 connected with the mortar being fired. Yes or no?
23 A. I saw a car leaving. It was a Toyota. It was a pick-up type of a
24 car. I didn't see the fire -- actually, I didn't see the fire from that
25 car, but that was the only car on the street and that was leaving from
1 that side. And then the commandant came and nothing could be found on the
2 spot from which such a shot could be done. Then the only possibility that
3 such a shot could have been fired from within the car.
4 Q. How much time went by from the moment you saw that vehicle and the
5 firing of the mortar, roughly?
6 A. Well, the observation was constantly held, and they were -- there
7 was a person on duty who was taking observations, so that person that,
8 soldier, made the observation and then he would run to my door. I think
9 it would take about 30 seconds to come to my door and knock at the door.
10 Then I'd come to open the door. It would be about 30 seconds. He said,
11 "Sir, I heard a shot." Then he was speaking French. He didn't speak any
12 English. And then he pointed to me at that car, and I saw the car
13 leaving. The car had lights off.
14 Q. Witness, thank you. At the spot that you were observing, was
15 there anything else perhaps? That is, any fixed mortars that may have
16 been there? Yes or no?
17 Let me rephrase the question. The moment the vehicle left the
18 scene, did you see on the spot where it had been any weapon, yes or no?
19 A. I did not see anything.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, you now have this map to your left
21 in front of you. Could you please indicate to us the places that you
22 mentioned as being especially badly destroyed at the time. First of all,
23 pointing them out with the pointer.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And if we could move the
25 picture to the south a little bit and enlarge it.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I could say that --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] More, more. Further down,
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, speaking about the badly
5 destroyed -- the series of destructions, I could tell you that they took
6 place in that area, that's road toward their field.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness is making a circle
8 round the area called Nedzarici.
9 A. Well, there are some private residential houses. Well, it's hard
10 for me to name the district because I can't see the name of the district
11 here. But here is the road from this intersection towards the entrance to
12 the air field. All these private houses were destroyed. The area of
13 Ilidza right here, was also destroyed. There were serious destructions in
14 this area. A major destruction also took place in the area of --
15 Q. You are not finding your way on this map. We'll give you another
16 map straight away.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But for the transcript, the
18 witness has also pointed on the map to the area of Ilidza, which is to the
19 left, more to the left.
20 A. Yes. In this area there was the line of contact --
21 Q. Witness, so as not to waste time, I'll interrupt you there. I'd
22 like to show you --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the Defence counsel was in fact
24 leading the witness. At the time he mentioned the word "Ilidza," the
25 witness was not pointing to that area. In fact, he was just roaming
1 around all over the map.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just try to shortcut this. The witness started
3 indicating the area which is indicated Ilidza, and then later on he also
4 pointed at an area just north of what seems to be a yellow major road just
5 north of the name Ilidza in red, just as he pointed previously when
6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin was referring to Nedzarici, to a wider area but of which
7 the centre reads in the map as "Stupsko Brdo" two times and "Stupsko Brdo"
8 again, that creates approximately a circle, just south of a major
9 intersection indicated in yellow colour.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, we are going to
13 distribute the second part of this map.
14 THE REGISTRAR: D1820.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Excuse me. Thank you, madam.
16 Q. Witness, briefly, do you recognise this map, yes or no?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you please focus on this map, if you can. And
19 if you can see the area indicating the zones which in your opinion may
20 have been destroyed to a major extent.
21 A. Well, to a major extent I can tell you that was destroyed the zone
22 of Grbavica. In this -- on this side of the Miljacka River. And then on
23 the other bank of the Miljacka River, there was the line of separation --
24 the zone of separation between the Bosnian and Serbian troops. That was
25 the line of contact. And next to the cemetery there were major
2 Q. I'm going to stop you there. I do apologise. The witness is
3 pointing with his pointer to the Grbavica area situated to the south of
4 the Miljacka River, that is, the area that is indicated on the map with
5 the word "Grbavica," close to the symbol of a hospital.
6 Witness, since you also mentioned here the front line along the
7 river, I'd like to ask you another question: Do you know or did you know
8 at the time whether in the town of Sarajevo on the side of the presidency
9 forces there were factories or workshops producing weapons?
10 A. According to the data which we had, we knew that there were two or
11 three workshops which were producing mortar mines and guns, mortar shells
12 and tubes. I cannot tell you specifically, but that's what we heard. I
13 cannot confirm that or overrule that, although these things were spoken
15 Q. Thank you. When you say that you heard about them, what were your
16 sources of information?
17 A. Well, the UN and the staff of the battalions and both the French
18 and the Ukrainian and other battalions, next to them we could see a lot of
19 people who were feeding on them, those people who had no work, no means
20 for survival. That is why personal contact was always established with
21 people -- with such people. Confidential relationships were established
22 as well. And probably that's where the French battalion -- there were
23 some intelligence officers working in such milieus, and I believe that
24 they received such information from such sources, which was later reported
25 at different levels. But I cannot tell you who and where specifically he
1 got such information. I believe that such workshops did not require any
2 specific equipment to be established. I think it takes about two or three
3 drilling machines, and that's about it. You don't need anything else, and
4 I guess you just need to relocate it -- you can relocate it in two or
5 three hours easily.
6 Q. Very well. Witness, leaving aside for a moment this question of
7 weapons workshop, I should like to come back to the question regarding
8 destruction. Apart from the area of Grbavica that you have just
9 mentioned, did you have occasion to see other areas close to Sarajevo on
10 the Serb side which were also destroyed, yes or no?
11 A. Well, practically pursuant to my job functions, once a week I
12 would go around the whole front line from both sides, both from within and
13 from the outside, both from -- in those areas and from the side of the
14 Serbian party. The destruction on the line of contact was from both
15 sides. That is why to say -- some destruction I don't know what to say.
16 So some buildings were destroyed indeed. Those buildings which were out
17 of range of mortar or tank fire, those buildings were intact. Well, I can
18 tell you that from both sides there were some destructions.
19 Q. Thank you. Before we take the break, I think it will be at half
20 past 3.00 or perhaps later, at a quarter to 4.00.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Quarter to 4.00.
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] In that case, we can continue.
23 Q. When you speak about artillery, do you have -- could you give us
24 an example of the spot that was destroyed that was relatively far from the
25 front line. And I am referring to the Serbian side.
1 A. The basis of our visits to the Serbian side were the requests and
2 protests made by the Bosnian side. They complained that there was
3 shelling going on and various other things, and this is why we would go to
4 the Serbian side in order to resolve the issue on putting an end to such
5 incidents, such as shelling and so on. This is why I visited the Serbian
6 side more than once. I visited their hospital, which was in a totally
7 destroyed village, quite far from the front line, some 12 to 15
8 kilometres, in fact. I was shown that place.
9 Q. I apologise for doing so. No, no. I have to interrupt you for
10 reasons of time. Do you know the name of that place, of that location,
12 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember it now. All I remember is
13 that there was the only -- the only building that was left intact there
14 was either a school or a church, and they set up a hospital there with
15 some 60 patients. I remember that there was a little girl there without
16 legs, and I remember that during my visit there was a surgery -- a man was
17 operated on who had an abdomenal wound. The people that worked there were
18 a lady from France and a French physician as well, who were members of
19 Medecins Sans Frontieres. They worked there as volunteers. They were she
20 would during their work. They basically --
21 Q. Could you on either of these maps that are to your left pinpoint
22 this particular spot on the map, or at least the direction in which it
23 could be found.
24 A. This was along the road leading to Pale in the Serbian territory.
25 It was in that direction, but I can't tell you exactly where because I
1 simply don't remember.
2 Q. Very well.
3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness mentioned on the
4 map to the south the road leading towards the municipality of Pale.
5 Q. Thank you very much, witness. I'll come back now to purely
6 technical questions. Did you have occasion to see in Sarajevo or in its
7 environs mortar craters? Please answer with a yes or no. Mortar craters.
8 A. You mean the craters? Yes, certainly I saw them. There were many
9 craters, on both sides. The war went on. People were attacking each
10 other, so there certainly were craters.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you have occasion to see mortar craters in other
12 places outside Sarajevo during your personal military experiences, yes or
14 A. Certainly. I did.
15 Q. Thank you. On the basis of this personal experience that you had,
16 both in Sarajevo and elsewhere, did you ever see during your personal
17 experience a crater left by a mortar which contained within it, dug into
18 the soil, hard soil, dug into hard soil, the final part of the mortar
19 known as the stabiliser, yes or no?
20 A. If I understood you well, are you in fact referring to stabiliser
21 that are visible from the ground, that remained visible and are stuck in
22 the ground? Am I understanding you well?
23 Q. My question is the following: We are talking about a hard surface
24 like asphalt. We are talking about what is called a stabiliser, that is,
25 the tail of a shell. Is it possible -- can you tell us, on the basis of
1 your experience, whether you have ever seen a crater that contained the
2 stabiliser dug into the ground at the bottom of the crater itself? Yes or
3 no? Have you understood the question?
4 A. Yes. I'm familiar with that phenomenon, and I saw it several
5 times. However, those were shellings with mortars used in training,
6 without explosive material in it. Stabilisers can fall as far as 5 to 7
7 metres from the crater, depending on the angle of fire, also depending on
8 the calibre of the shell, the distance from which it was fired. If it
9 remains visible there, that means that there was no explosion at that
11 Q. I would like to make things quite clear. We are reading in the
12 transcript that you did see this phenomenon several time; however, only
13 during training, when firing was done without explosive material. Is that
14 how I should understand your testimony?
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. The witness said "I'm
16 familiar with the phenomenon." He didn't say he had seen.
17 JUDGE ORIE: When you said that you're familiar, does that mean
18 that you have seen such stabiliser fins embedded in the ground?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only in Yugoslavia, but in other
20 hot spots where I went on tour of duty I saw artillery fire, mortar fire,
21 and let me just explain this. When there is an explosion, a shell
22 explosion, then stabiliser cannot remain in the ground. It cannot get
23 stuck in the ground. And this can be verified very easily. If you fire
24 in a training field ten shells from a mortar, you could see this for
25 yourselves. Only it would be as likely to happen as somebody surviving
1 the airplane crash from 10.000 metres. I personally don't believe this to
2 be possible. The stabilisers can remain visible only if this is a
3 training shell, a training shell that penetrates the ground and the
4 stabiliser remains visible in the ground.
5 JUDGE ORIE: My question to you was whether you had seen this
6 stabiliser fins in the ground as a result of a training session, whether
7 this was your personal observation.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When using training shell, I saw
9 this once when I was undergoing training myself and a training shell was
10 used without explosion material in it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I see.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps you could find a suitable moment to have
15 a break.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Perhaps that moment
17 could be now, as we are moving to another line of questioning later on.
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Trial Chamber will adjourn until quarter past
20 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you may proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. One
24 of the booths asked me to make longer breaks for technical reasons. I
25 just wanted to inform you of this.
1 Q. Witness, does the name Zetra, does it mean anything to you? Does
2 it remind you of anything?
3 A. Well, this is an area in Sarajevo.
4 Q. Very well. Could you please, if it's possible for you to indicate
5 this on one of the maps, could you point to it. But I should add that we
6 need the assistance of the usher.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you please show the west
9 map, that is to say, the number -- yes, you've got it. You've got it.
10 Q. Witness, could you point to the place called Zetra on this map.
11 A. [Indicates].
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness complied and he
14 pointed to a building bearing the name Zetra close to the sports complex
15 in Sarajevo.
16 Q. Witness, what can you tell us about incidents that may have
17 happened close to this area called Zetra and incidents that you witnessed?
18 A. Well, in the area of Zetra, I can tell you that the French
19 battalion was stationed. It was stationed right in that very building
20 where an ice skating rink was located for figure skating during the
21 Olympics. And from the stadium in the area of Zetra, we were dispatching
22 helicopters and we were receiving helicopters with civilian population
23 from the area of Gorazde, those who were wounded. So when we came there,
24 we organised there some aid and further treatments and dispatchment from
25 the area of Sarajevo.
1 In the area of Zetra, I can tell you that I came to visit that
2 battalion six or eight times. During my service there, I can tell you
3 that there were two French battalions. One was the marine battalion. I
4 don't remember its exact name. And one battalion was from the Foreign
5 Legion, the French Foreign Legion. One French soldier was wounded in the
6 area of Zetra, and this was practically my time. I had an encounter with
7 the commander of the battalion. And according to the order from General
8 Soubirou, I was inspecting the positions and posts, and this soldier was
9 wounded by sniper fire. At the time pursuant to an order from General
10 Soubirou, in every battalion special anti-sniper groups were established.
11 Q. Witness, I'll stop you there. And it's just for the sake of
12 time. You said that this soldier was wounded by sniper fire. Could you
13 please use the pointer. And if you know this, could you indicate the
14 direction of fire.
15 A. Well, if I had an exact plan of the location of that battalion at
16 the moment, then I could. But at the moment I can tell you only that we
17 would come -- or I should say I would come to the battalion by this road.
18 There was an entrance here. And this was the entrance to the battalion.
19 And in front of it --
20 Q. Witness, I apologise. I'd appreciate it if you could use the
21 pointer to indicate the direction of fire. Where did the fire come from,
22 on the basis of what you were able to see or on the basis of what you were
23 able to discover later on.
24 A. Well, the sniper fire was being led from this direction, I should
25 say, the south-east direction.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge the image.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the basis of this witness's
6 knowledge on this fact has not been established.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, you just pointed to a direction. I'll go back to that.
11 But what personal knowledge do you have of this? How did you know this?
12 Why? Et cetera.
13 A. Well, together with the commander of the battalion, we were
14 staying in his office, and from his office he had -- before the Olympics
15 there was a restaurant constructed. Which was not operational, of course,
16 in those days but it was intact. It was not ruined. And it was being
17 used by the French battalion as a canteen. And on top of the canteen,
18 there was a terrace. If I may say so, it had a small fence made of
19 bricks. It was like a fence -- it was used for observation, as an
20 observation place for those who would come there. We immediately came to
21 that terrace, and on that terrace there was the anti-sniper group, and
22 there were two French soldiers, one observer with binoculars and one had a
23 rifle, anti-sniper French rifle with a tripod, a large calibre. And the
24 sniper, according to the report, was eliminated.
25 Q. Very well. Could you now tell us, from what direction fire was
1 opened. Could you indicate this. Could you show us on the map.
2 A. Well, I cannot tell you from exactly where the fire was coming,
3 but I can tell you exactly that the anti-sniper group with a special
4 directional gun was staying at this place.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness pointed to an
7 arch, which starts at Zetra and extends in a south-westerly direction.
8 Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, could you please take a felt tip that the usher will
10 provide you with.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The witness pointed south-easterly view --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Easterly. Yes.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's exact. That's exact.
16 I apologise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Witness, could you please use the felt tip to trace the arch that
20 you mentioned, what we call the firing arch.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. We will now concentrate on other questions. We no
23 longer need the map at this stage. As assistant to General Soubirou, did
24 you ever see a written protest which was forwarded directly to General
25 Galic concerning one or several sniping incidents, yes or no?
1 A. No, I have not seen them.
2 Q. Thank you. Witness, as General Soubirou's direct assistant, if
3 such form of protest had been lodged, would you have been in a position to
4 be aware of this fact, yes or no?
5 A. Well, some issues were beyond my competence. But if such a
6 written protest were presented, then I would have known about this for
7 sure because General Soubirou was holding daily meetings and such protests
8 or demarches were always presented to officers on duty. As a rule, all
9 the protests for both parties were transmitted through the radio station
10 or through the telephone communication or through the radio station. This
11 was the main operational chain of communication.
12 Q. I'll stop you there. Thank you, witness. Should I understand
13 that for the six months or more that you spent in Sarajevo you never saw
14 such written protests at your level? Is that correct?
15 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly at the moment because a lot of
16 operational paperwork was -- had been taken place, and quite possibly one
17 of the paragraphs in one of the papers could be -- could be containing
18 some kind of a protest. That's quite possible. But I cannot tell if
19 there were some official protests or something like that.
20 Q. One question to you, witness: Were you ever present at meetings
21 with General Galic during which he would have been forwarded such written
22 protests concerning one or more sniping incidents, precise and identified
23 sniping incidents?
24 A. No. Specifically in the written form I never saw such protests in
25 meetings with General Galic.
1 Q. Witness, we are now going to move on to another subject. In
2 general terms, how would you describe the personality and the competence
3 of General Soubirou?
4 A. Well, first of all, from my side this would not be very ethical to
5 do that because I was his deputy. But I can tell you that General
6 Soubirou was very experienced and well prepared general and he had vast
7 combat experience and vast experience in running the troops. He was
8 decisive. He would take decisions quickly and adequately. He was not
9 frightened. Thank you.
10 Q. As a result, should I infer from this that if -- I'll withdraw
11 that question and rephrase it.
12 Should I infer from this that if there were facts which justified
13 a protest to be made to General Galic, then General Soubirou would not
14 have failed to react?
15 A. Well, I cannot recall at the moment such instances. I know that
16 after the shelling of Sarajevo he would go to General Galic and General
17 Soubirou would talk to him. But whether this was on paper or not, I
18 cannot tell you this.
19 Q. Thank you. Witness, with the assistance of the usher, I would now
20 like to show you an exhibit. The number is 1821.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, there is an R number on the
22 document. I don't know whether this document is disclosed to the Defence
23 by the Prosecution and whether this would cause the -- any party to ask
24 for --
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, our case manager is checking
1 right now.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can't see a
3 name. I can't see any names that would cause a problem.
4 JUDGE ORIE: But it might be a document -- a document that needs
5 protection for other reasons.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It has been lifted, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It has been lifted. Okay. Please proceed.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, first of all, do you recognise such documents? Do you
10 recognise the form?
11 A. Yes, I do. This is a general document.
12 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would like to read the second paragraph
13 under number 1. This is what we are interested in, and it concerns the
14 question that I shall put to you. I'll now quote in English: [In
15 English] "Areas most affected were the centre of town GR 9059, Stup GR
16 8459, Grbavica GR 9059. Tank activity was observed in GR 855, and I think
17 "9" or "8."
18 "The majority of the activity is believed to have been directed at
19 front line areas approximately 80 per cent."
20 [Interpretation] In this text, we can see that tank activity has
21 been mentioned. Witness, did you see any tanks in Sarajevo? And if so,
23 A. Well, the term "tank activity" does not signify the usage of
24 tanks. Tank activity is -- signifies that tanks were moving in that
25 area. An observer who witnessed that reports in his report that observed
1 some tank activity. This does not signify that he observed firing from
3 Q. Yes. I didn't mention fire being opened from tanks. My question
4 is whether you yourself saw any tanks. And if you did, where did you see
6 A. I saw two or three times tanks inside Sarajevo.
7 Q. Very well. Could you tell us where you saw these tanks.
8 A. In the area of Ilidza.
9 Q. Did you see any in the centre of the town, or rather, in the part
10 of the town in the so-called presidency's hands?
11 A. To be honest, I don't remember.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the question has been answered.
13 I withdraw that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then please proceed.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. A minute ago you said -- you mentioned Zetra, which is located
17 close to the Kosovo area. Do you know if there were any heavy weapons
18 near the Kosovo zone, yes or no?
19 A. I cannot tell you specifically about Kosovo.
20 Q. In that case, I'm going to ask the usher for his assistance. He
21 will show you a second exhibit, number 1822. Thank you.
22 Do you recognise the form of this document, yes or no?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Witness, I'm going to read the first paragraph to you, under item
25 1, "General assessment." And I quote: [In English] "Sarajevo remains
1 unstable. The shelling was again at a relatively low level. Areas
2 shelled that are considered on/near the confrontation line were Stup GR
3 8458), Raljovac (GR 8460), and Vogosca (GR 8764, 8765 - Vice 9765, BSA
5 [Interpretation] Witness, with regard to these locations, could
6 you, first of all, confirm what has been stated in these two -- in these
7 several lines, that is to say, the shelling of these locations.
8 A. Shelling of those areas -- when there is a shelling going on, be
9 it daytime or night-time, then usually the areas close to the front line
10 are shelled, and they could have fired shells into the air. But
11 regardless of that, observers would record that and report that there was
12 a shelling going on. Therefore, these were daily typical reports.
13 Q. Thank you. Witness, was there any possibility of error in the
14 registration of these shellings and activities which led up to this
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 Q. What do you mean by that?
18 A. It is very difficult to specify the source of fire and the
19 direction of it. Therefore, an observer could have made a mistake, the
20 observer that recorded the fire. The observer usually indicates just the
21 area of fire. But in order to pinpoint it accurately, an observer -- it
22 would have to be a trace bullet in order to pinpoint the exact area or
23 source of fire. If any other ammunition was used, it would be very
24 difficult to calculate that.
25 Q. With respect to this type of document, witness, we frequently come
1 across the expression "mixed rounds." Could you tell us in technical
2 terms, military technical terms, what was covered under this term "mixed
4 A. I can't tell you what this means. It could mean that an observer
5 was not very competent, the one that used the mixed rounds phrase. It
6 could mean that there was mortar and gunfire at the same time, and perhaps
7 this term was used when there was both mortar and gunfire simultaneously.
8 Q. So, witness, there is no classical or uniform technical definition
9 of the expression that I have just used.
10 A. I can't say.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I would now like with the
13 assistance of the usher once again to show the witness Exhibit 1823,
14 please. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, looking at the clock, I see that
16 you have approximately 10 to 15 minutes left from the time estimate you
17 gave. And if I look at the list of exhibits, then of course I am aware
18 that you started only in the latter part of the examination of the witness
19 with the exhibits. But would you please stick to your estimates, as far
20 as time is concerned. Please proceed.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As always, Mr. President.
22 Thank you.
23 Q. Witness, since time is counted, it would be kind enough if you
24 could try and answer with a yes or no as far as possible.
25 First of all, do you see the period covered by this exhibit, and
1 could you read it out for us? It is the third line of the document.
2 A. This document pertains to the period from the 10th to 11th of
3 December, 1994.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Could you please look at the very first line
5 and read -- or rather, it will be the second line, and read the date,
7 A. January 1994.
8 Q. Thank you. Was it frequent for such apparent errors, if it is an
9 error, occur on such documents, yes or no?
10 A. No, not frequently. However, it did happen occasionally.
11 Q. Thank you. Witness, let us concentrate now on the first paragraph
12 of point 1, "General assessment." Once again, and I shall quote what it
13 contains in English now. [In English] "-- the past 24 hours have been a
14 steady increase in the general level of activity, particularly in the use
15 of indirect fire weapons on both sides. Areas most affected have been
16 Stup GR 8459, Central Sarajevo GRS 9059, 9159, Zuc all along the -- I
17 think, confrontation line. Grbavica and Alipasin Most, GR 8559, 8659."
18 [Interpretation] Excuse me. Now, with respect to indirect
19 weapons, could you tell us, if you know, what were the calibres that the
20 presidency forces had at their disposal. And we're talking of mortars.
21 A. They had 40-millimetre mortars, 66-millimetre mortars. I think
22 they also had 82-millimetre mortars and also 120-millimetre ones.
23 Q. Thank you. I think -- no, I'll stay with this document for a
24 little longer. This document in the third paragraph of point 1 speaks of
25 snipers, Bosnian snipers. My question is the following: Did you ever
1 hear within the framework of your military activities in Sarajevo that
2 presidency snipers were used by presidency forces? My question first.
3 Yes or no?
4 A. Snipers were used on both sides, both by the Bosnian side and the
5 Serbian side.
6 Q. Very well. Did you ever hear mention made of the use by
7 presidency forces of snipers against targets situated within the lines
8 controlled by the presidency forces, yes or no?
9 A. I didn't quite understand. Do you mean to say that the Bosnian
10 snipers fired on targets that were located in their territory? Is that
11 what you mean?
12 Q. That was my question, yes, whether you ever heard such things
13 being mentioned. Yes or no?
14 A. First of all, this was a war that could be described as a
15 semi-guerilla war, guerilla war being fought by the Bosnian side. It was
16 very difficult to exercise control over any group of people. It was quite
17 possible for any group of people to shoot within their own territory. If
18 they had an argument amongst themselves, they could have fired -- or
19 opened fire within their own territory. There were cases like that, not
20 only on the Bosnian side but also on the Serbian side.
21 Q. Thank you, witness. I should now like to go back to something I
22 mentioned a moment ago, with regard to the professionalism of General
23 Soubirou. I shall read to you something that I have already given to the
24 booth, which is a document originating from the Prosecution. And please
25 bear in mind what I'm reading conforms with what I -- what is written.
1 General Soubirou said in an interview --
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May we see a copy of the document. We haven't
3 received a copy of this document.
4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I have a copy
5 here. It is Exhibit ERN 01100499. And we also have a copy for the
6 Chamber, but we do not intend to tender this into evidence.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The sentence that I would like
10 to read --
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. Informing the witness
12 that this document originated from the Prosecution. I don't know what
13 this document is. It's just a --
14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I just withdrew that
15 statement, but we're still speaking about the same document.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Prosecution no longer
18 recognises its documents, and this, I find, disturbing for the future.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. My point is this document
20 has not been tendered by the Prosecution by way of evidence. That's
21 completely different. This may have been an interview conducted by the
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be -- let's be practical. I do understand that
24 the Defence indicates that this is a document that has been disclosed to
25 the Defence by the Prosecution and is referring to the number. I also
1 understand that the document will not be tendered into evidence. So
2 therefore, unless there's any specific part, please, you could,
3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, draw out and shift to a certain part. But why not just
4 put a question apart from any document.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There is only a single
6 sentence that I would like to read. And according to the old rule that is
7 in force, we will save time. And I intend to do that. The sentence is
8 the following -- may I do it, Mr. President?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] -- There's no objection.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Usually if you use a document, even if you do not
12 tender it, it's usually on the list. But I do not see this document on
13 the list. Could you indicate just by -- so that we can first read and
14 also Ms. Mahindaratne can read the part that you would like to quote --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is the first sentence,
16 Mr. President, the first line.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President --
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which is one and a half lines
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: The part that starts with "I got." Yes.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I would ask that the witness be
23 asked to remove his headphones for this portion.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the witness does understand some English.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I won't quote it. I won't
1 quote it, Mr. President. I won't quote from this document.
2 Q. Witness, General Soubirou said something to this effect: Speaking
3 of General Galic, he said, probably in French, that I have the impression
4 that he was removed because he was not hard enough, because he tended to
5 demonstrate compassion.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you say that you're not
9 quoting, I take it that you do not quote. So please move to your next
11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I didn't
13 JUDGE ORIE: You have almost literally repeated what is said
14 there, and that is unfair after you indicated that you would not quote,
15 because if you change one or two irrelevant words and say I'm not quoting
16 any more, then you are playing tricks. And please move to your next
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll be glad to.
19 Q. Do you know if General Galic was removed from his position for any
20 particular reason?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I asked you to move to your next
22 subject and not to stay with the same subject. Please proceed.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President. Let
24 me consult with my colleague.
25 Wait, please.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will proceed
3 as follows. Unfortunately, we believed that we had the possibility to
4 prove something that we were not authorised by your Chamber, though it was
5 a very important point.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just briefly respond to that.
7 And I will ask the witness to take off -- do you understand any
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. Could you take off your headphones.
11 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. [Interpretation] You had the opportunity
13 to ask this witness whether --
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President. Your pardon for interrupting.
15 The witness can read English, so perhaps he --
16 JUDGE ORIE: [In English] Oh, yes. Yes. Then we have --
17 Mr. Usher, could you please change the channel of the witness.
18 [Interpretation] The Defence did have the opportunity to ask the
19 witness whether he knew the reasons why General Galic was removed from his
20 position and had the opportunity to confront the witness with a reply that
21 may have been given by another person, that is, General Soubirou. So you
22 did have the opportunity to do this in a way that would not lead the
23 witness towards a particular answer, and you did not take advantage of
24 that opportunity but you chose to follow a path which is not acceptable.
25 Therefore, will you please continue.
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will continue,
2 Mr. President. Thank you. I think, nevertheless, it is sometimes the
3 duty of the attorney without seeking confrontation to state clearly that
4 the Defence considers that it is in a position not to be able to continue
5 and that its rights have been violated, and we say so with great respect.
6 And therefore, we have no further questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may put his headphones on again.
8 Ms. Mahindaratne, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine the
9 witness or at least to start to cross-examine the witness?
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. We -- we should definitely
11 be able to start and perhaps might conclude today itself. But may I seek
12 a very short recess before we start, Mr. President?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: How many minutes would you need? Five minutes? Would
16 that be --
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Ten minutes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes? Let me just have a look at the clock,
19 if we would have a break for ten minutes now. That would bring us to
20 quarter past 5.00. That would be too long.
21 Perhaps we will have the shorter break now and grant 20 minutes.
22 We'll resume at 25 minutes past 5.00 and have no other break any more.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.06 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.28 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be examined by counsel for the
3 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready?
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:
7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good sir.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown Exhibit D1823.
10 Q. Sir, this document was shown to you by learned Defence counsel and
11 you examined it. Would you please examine paragraph 2, which I will read
12 to you. "Bosnian school came under direct mortar fire at 1030 hours
13 resulting in a number of casualties." It's reported in those words in
14 this document.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to paragraph 1, I take it,
16 Ms. Mahindaratne?
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Paragraph 1, which is -- 2
18 I did say, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But then the second linear.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I'm referring to paragraph
21 1. I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
22 Q. Paragraph 1, and the second sentence. It's reported to such
24 Now, during your period as deputy commander for sector Sarajevo,
25 were you privy such incidents? Did you learn about such incidents or did
1 you read reports about civilians being subject to direct mortar fire in
2 this manner?
3 A. Well, I would like to clarify something here. It was not a school
4 which was -- which came under direct mortar fire. And mine --
5 Q. -- Interrupt you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] There's a rule which says that
10 while a witness is about to give information, he should not be
11 interrupted. And this time I see that he was interrupted just as when he
12 was of his own accord going to give information about the school, which
13 seems to me to be rather important.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first read the question again.
15 Yes, you may proceed your answer.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: My objection was based on the fact that I asked
17 him a completely different question. I asked the witness --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But part -- the part you read was, "The Bosnian
19 school came under direct mortar fire." Part of your question was to learn
20 about such incidents or did you read reports about civilians being subject
21 to mortar fire in this manner? So you're referring to what is described
22 in the report. And if the witness wants to explain what he understands
23 the report would be. Otherwise, he cannot answer the question about such
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed with your answer. You started
2 telling us that you'd like to clarify something, and you said it was not a
3 school which was -- which came under the direct mortar fire. Could you
4 please there continue your answer.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A mortar mine detonated on a
6 playground not far from a school, and at that moment there were children
7 playing there, and there were some casualties among the children. There
8 were several killed and several wounded. Such reports when civilians were
9 subjected to mortar or artillery fire or gunfire or rifle fire or sniper
10 fire, I heard about them and I read about such things, and there were
11 casualties both from the Serbian side and the Bosnian side.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
13 Q. Thank you, witness. If I take you back to paragraph 3 on that
14 same document. I will read it to you. It states: "Attacks on UN
15 personnel, equipment --" And then thereafter it says: "A number of small
16 arms rounds hit the PTT building during the night. One of them
17 penetrating the UN HCR radio room window narrowly missing a civilian."
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President. I withdraw
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown document -- Exhibit
22 number 1822 -- I'm sorry, I think it's 1821.
23 Q. If I could take you back to the final paragraph. It's paragraph
24 number 1, but the last sentence. It's recorded: "Small arms activity was
25 evident around the PTT building, and on two occasions rounds hit the
1 building itself. One round entered the UNHCR radio room narrowly missing
2 a civilian, and there is a record of rounds. Bosnian in, 105 mixed
3 rounds; Bosnian out, 25 mortar; Serbian in, five rounds; Serbian out, 61
4 mixed rounds," says such a report.
5 Sir, would you agree with me that generally, like this type of
6 report, you could agree that the outgoing rounds from the Serbian sector
7 is far in excess of the incoming rounds to the Serbian sector?
8 A. Well, it is very difficult to tell you specifically with regard to
9 what is meant by "in" and "out," because on one day there could be
10 outgoing shells from the Serbian side. On the other day, a lot could be
11 coming from the Bosnian side. So this was a war taking place. It was not
12 just walking around. The fact that PTT was being shot at, this is true.
13 My room was shot at, I can tell you. A large-calibre bullet penetrated
14 through my wall. It was a direct penetration. It went across my room and
15 hit the opposite wall. This is the answer to your question, I believe.
16 Q. How would you conclude based on this particular report which has
17 been shown to you by the Defence, at least with regard to this particular
18 day on which -- with regard to which this report has been issued?
19 A. Well, I cannot tell you anything on this issue for the reason that
20 at that moment I was no longer in the Sarajevo sector.
21 Q. Sir, I'm merely asking you to respond on this report. Now, you
22 did in fact -- your testimony was that you were in -- you were the deputy
23 commander of sector Sarajevo from November 1993 to July 1994. This report
24 is for the period -- for the date 11th January, 1994, so you were in fact
25 still the deputy commander sector Sarajevo. Isn't that the case?
1 A. Yes, this is so. But I can tell you that the work of a deputy
2 commander did not imply only my constant stay in the building of PTT. I
3 was on a mission in Zuc. I was on a mission in Gorazde. I was head of
4 those missions, and I could be for two or three weeks away from that
5 building, if you understand me. So I simply do not recall this incident
6 when this was taking place. There were firings going on quite often, and
7 nobody took that seriously. One shell was shot at PTT from the firearms.
8 Well, nobody paid much attention to that. All the windows which were
9 facing on the outside from the PTT building were blocked by sacks with
11 Q. If I may interrupt you, sir. I'm under a time constraint. Is it
12 your position, then, that you cannot speak to the incidents about which
13 the reports -- the reports relate to which were shown to you by the
14 Defence? And I'm referring to documents D1821, 1822, 1823. Is it then
15 your position that you do not know personally about those incidents, that
16 you have no recollection of those incidents? That's your position?
17 A. No. Please understand me correctly. The fact that a shot came to
18 the window of the radio room does not signify that this is a big incident
19 which took place. This just means that it was noted in the daily report.
20 And two days later nobody would even remember it.
21 Q. If that be the case, sir, how is it that when I questioned you
22 about the incident where a Bosnian school had come under fire, which was
23 referred to in document number 1823, you seemed to remember that
24 particular incident in vivid detail, to state -- to give, in fact, details
25 about that particular incident? How is it that you remember about that
1 particular incident and not the rest of it?
2 A. Well, when the shelling at the Alipasino field took place and
3 children died, then about 40 minutes right after that shelling I was on
4 the site.
5 Q. So you were -- you were personally a witness to the shelling of
6 the children in Alipasino Polje. That is your testimony?
7 A. I saw with my own eyes the results of the shelling. I witnessed
8 the results. I did not witness the shelling, but I witnessed the results
9 of the shelling. I saw that the children were killed and that there were
10 children who were wounded. I do not remember the exact number. I think
11 about six or seven children.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. I'll move on to another area.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown the map, I think 1820
14 and 1819. If the witness may be shown map number 1820 first.
15 Q. Sir, you drew a line going from north to a south-easterly
16 direction. What did you indicate by that line?
17 A. Well, I wanted to indicate by that line that when we and the
18 commander of the French battalion came to the anti-sniper group, then the
19 direction of the weapons of the anti-sniper group was directed in that
21 Q. So in other words, that line indicates the location where the
22 anti-sniper groups were positioned. Is that correct? That's what you
24 A. Not exactly. A line cannot depict a location of the anti-sniper
25 group. The line shows in which direction the weapons of the anti-sniper
1 group were directed.
2 Q. Can you point out where the group was positioned on that line. On
3 which side?
4 A. In the barracks.
5 Q. And from there, it is your position the line indicates in fact
6 where their weapons were directed at. It was not a line of fire which you
8 A. No. When we jumped out and we saw that their weapons were
9 directed on that side, the weapons of the anti-sniper group, I mean.
10 Q. Sir, weren't you still the deputy commander of sector Sarajevo
11 when the anti-sniper agreement was concluded on 14th August 1994?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It was concluded by UNPROFOR with the two warring factions; isn't
14 that the case?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you yourself involved in the process?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then you would be aware of -- were you aware of the fact that
19 UNPROFOR and particularly General Soubirou had to take -- there was much
20 effort on his part to convince the Serbian army to agree to the -- or to
21 concede to the agreement? You would then have been privy to that.
22 A. Well, practically everybody at the level of Sir Rose; Viktor
23 Andreev, who was political advisor, Diana Nikola [phoen], who was advisor
24 to the General Soubirou; General Soubirou himself; the commanders of
25 battalions, everybody was taking at their level all the efforts in order
1 to convince the two parties to stop the fire and sniper activity.
2 Q. As part of this agreement, there were two teams called
3 operations -- anti-sniping operations teams and anti-sniping interventions
4 teams --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, may I first interfere for one
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tsynchenko, right at the beginning of your
9 testimony you told us that you held the position in Sarajevo until July of
10 1994. You're now asked by Ms. Mahindaratne whether you were still serving
11 in Sarajevo when an agreement was concluded at the 14th of August, 1994,
12 and you responded in the affirmative. That's at least what I read on my
13 screen. I have some difficulties in understanding how you can stop
14 serving in July 1994 and still serve on the 14th of August, 1994.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was not serving. Maybe I
16 did not understand the translation or the interpretation, rather. Let us
17 put the question again, if possible. What was the question?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please try to clarify
19 this with the witness.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
21 Q. Sir, are you aware of the anti-sniper agreement concluded by
22 UNPROFOR in August 1994? Are you aware of such an agreement?
23 A. I am aware of such an agreement because this agreement was being
24 prepared not in a couple of days. This was work which took at least half
25 a year on both sides until this agreement came into being. And if -- even
1 if I was not there at that moment, my subordinates still were there, who
2 later reported to me in Ukraine when I was in Ukraine.
3 Q. When did you leave Sarajevo?
4 A. I left Sarajevo in July of 1994.
5 Q. Would that be the case then, sir, that you were not in Sarajevo or
6 you could not have been party or privy to the conclusion of the
7 anti-sniper agreement which was concluded in August 1994? Isn't that the
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. If that be the case, sir, how is it that you just described in
11 detail about convincing parties to enter into the agreement, so on and so
12 forth, which you just stated earlier on, when you were not in fact -- in
13 fact party to the -- or privy to this --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object for
16 two reasons: Firstly, the witness just said that it took six months to
17 arrive at some point. And the second reason is - and this is important -
18 we don't see why we're speaking about this agreement so much, which is
19 outside the time frame of the indictment, which goes up to August 1994, I
21 JUDGE ORIE: We are talking about August 1994. But -- and let me
22 just have a look.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I said it was after the 10th
24 of August, 1994, and it doesn't appear clearly -- it didn't appear clearly
25 in the English translation, I think.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you please rephrase your
2 question to the extent that the witness has told us on how the parties had
3 to be convinced of entering in such an agreement but give no detail
4 whatsoever about the agreement itself as it finally was made and -- nor
5 about the implementation. Please proceed.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Sir, you said that the agreement was negotiated
7 for about six months prior to your departure -- from about six months
8 before you departed Sarajevo.
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. To come back to my previous question, were you then aware of the
11 attempts and efforts taken by UNPROFOR to convince especially the Serbian
12 side, the Serbian army, to enter into the agreement? Are you aware of
14 A. Yes, I was familiar with that.
15 Q. In that you agree there was difficulty in getting the Serbian army
16 to agree to the anti-sniper agreement.
17 A. I know about that. There were difficulties not only regarding the
18 Serbian side but also regarding the Bosnian side.
19 Q. Isn't it the case, sir, that it was specifically more difficult to
20 convince the Serbian army than the presidency forces to enter into the
21 agreement? Isn't that the case, sir?
22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President --
23 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.
24 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The Defence knows that leading
1 questions are not admissible [as interpreted]. But there is a certain way
2 of formulating a question, something that is tendentious in the question,
3 if we look at the other replies that the witness has already given.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Leading includes a certain tendency -- the witness
5 has earlier responded that --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave.
7 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.
8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just reading the transcript.
10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's just
13 one matter. I didn't say that leading questions weren't admissible. I
14 said the opposite. And this is not clear in the transcript.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The English transcript is not correct in this view
16 because you said that they were not -- you were aware that leading
17 questions in cross-examination were not inadmissible.
18 Ms. Mahindaratne, the witness testified that they had to convince
19 the parties to enter into the agreement. I think that's the starting
20 point for your --
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will withdraw that last
22 question in the interests of time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
25 Q. Sir, are you aware of anti-sniper groups in existence in Sarajevo
1 prior to the conclusion of the agreement just concluded in August 1994?
2 Were there anti-sniper groups before that?
3 A. Anti-sniper groups were established in two French battalions prior
4 to the conclusion of that agreement.
5 Q. When was that, sir?
6 A. I couldn't tell you exactly. If you wish, I can give you an
7 explanation so that things become quite clear.
8 Q. If I may interrupt you, sir. Was it before you -- were there
9 anti-sniper groups in existence when you arrived in Sarajevo, or were they
10 grouped in such manner after you arrived in Sarajevo?
11 A. I believe that anti-sniper groups were established in each
12 battalion prior to my arrival. I mean, the French battalions.
13 Q. So it is your position that these groups were in existence when
14 you arrived in Sarajevo in November 1993.
15 A. They existed. But if you allow me, I will give you a more
16 detailed explanation. Commander of each battalion is responsible for his
17 soldiers. He's responsible for security of his soldiers. Therefore,
18 there were special anti-sniper groups in French battalions from their very
20 Q. So the anti-sniper groups that you're referring to, which you say
21 existed prior to August 1994, were set up by battalions to protect the
22 personnel of the battalions. Is that your case?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The anti-sniper groups established after August 1994, the
25 agreement of -- which was negotiated while you were in Sarajevo, were --
1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.
2 Objection. We spoke about groups established after August 1994; that is
3 to say, after the time frame in the indictment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you explain to us what
5 relevance would be of what happened after the 14th of August, 1994.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. I'm -- I was merely going
7 to ask the witness about what was negotiated. In fact, the groups, where
8 they were to be located during the course of negotiation, what transpired.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So you're talking about -- not about the agreement
10 but you're talking about the negotiations -- the content of the
11 negotiations --
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- that finally led to the agreement?
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
17 Q. Sir, you said you participated in the negotiations leading to the
18 anti-sniper agreement which was concluded in August after your time,
19 1994. You did participate in the negotiations?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Then would you be able to -- are you aware of where these groups
22 were mainly to be located? Where were the anti-sniper groups and the
23 teams were to be located?
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. I'm not asking about the exact location, but region-wise weren't
1 the teams to be positioned inside the city of Sarajevo?
2 A. In order to understand what I'm trying to say, you have to have
3 military education. A group can be located today in this particular
4 room. Whereas, tomorrow it can be transferred to a totally different part
5 of the town or to the front line. Therefore, one cannot put it in the
6 terms that you are trying to put it in.
7 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to answer the question. The question
8 was whether during the negotiations anti-sniping groups were discussed to
9 be positioned where, within the city or also - that's, I think, the
10 question - also on Serbian-held territory or exclusively on BiH
11 presidency-held territory. That's the question first. What the reasons
12 might have been for that is a different matter. Please first answer
13 that -- respond to that question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer that question.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain to us why you can't answer this
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said. The preparations
18 for negotiations and the agreement itself is not the same as signing the
19 agreement. Any shelling or any sniper activity entailed us travelling to
20 Lukavica, to various other regions where we held negotiations. The
21 negotiations were held first with the presidency forces and then with the
22 Serbian side. And this was basically our daily activities, both of
23 General Soubirou and myself as the first deputy, as well as political
24 advisors and deputies of General Rose, so this process of negotiations
25 lasted quite a long time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: My question was: Have anti-sniper groups been
2 discussed to be positioned -- to be positioned at both sides of the
3 confrontation line? Has that been discussed? Or has it been discussed on
4 one side? And if so, on what side? I'm talking about what has been
5 discussed, not about what finally was agreed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand. Discussions, any
7 discussions, were always held with both sides.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that was not my question. My question was
9 whether the discussions of setting up anti-sniping groups were discussed
10 as setting up anti-sniping groups on both sides of the confrontation lines
11 or just on one side of the confrontation line, and if on one side of the
12 confrontation line, on what side.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that this is
14 something that I cannot tell you, because I simply do not remember. I
15 cannot recall the exact details. However, I know for a fact that
16 discussions were held with both sides. I took you to mean that you needed
17 to know the exact locations of anti-sniper groups. I don't know that.
18 However, discussions were held -- all discussions were held with both
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
22 Q. Sir, I put it to you that the negotiations that led to the
23 anti-sniper agreement, which was in fact concluded in August 1994, related
24 to establishment of anti-sniping groups within the city of Sarajevo.
25 A. Including the city of Sarajevo as well.
1 Q. So you do in fact know the locations where the groups were in
2 fact -- in fact to be positioned.
3 A. No, I don't know locations. I don't know those locations.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the witness be shown the map D1820.
5 May the map be placed on the ELMO.
6 Q. Sir, you indicated -- you testified about a village you visited --
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
8 Q. Sir, you spoke of a location where you visited in the Serbian
9 side, to use your own words, where you had visited a hospital which was
10 totally destroyed along with the village, and you indicated on the map
11 that particular location or the road leading to that location. Can you
12 please point that out again.
13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness did not state
17 that. He didn't indicate on the map, as far as I can remember -- he
18 didn't indicate this village.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My recollection is he indicated in what
20 direction it was. But perhaps you could ask him again -- you could ask
21 him again to point at the direction that he did before.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
25 Q. Sir, would you be able to indicate on that map that particular
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't show you that exact
4 village. I don't remember that. I simply showed -- indicated the road
5 which led in that direction, leading -- the road leading to Pale.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Mahindaratne, my recollection is that the
7 witness testified that the village was between 12 and 15 kilometres from
8 the confrontation line. If you can find on one of these maps any location
9 which is at a distance of 12 to 15 kilometres from the confrontation line,
10 then please ask the witness to point at the village. But if not, it's no
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. Very well.
13 Q. Sir, how far on that road would one have to travel to get to this
14 particular village you spoke of? How far on the road you indicated --
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The question isn't clear.
18 From where? From where?
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will withdraw that. I will withdraw that.
20 In the interest of time, I will withdraw that question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May the maps be returned.
23 Q. Sir, you spoke of General Soubirou conducting meetings with
24 General Galic.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. It was your position that you participated at such meetings only
2 when officers of General Galic were also present.
3 A. Yes. There were several such meetings where general questions
4 were discussed.
5 Q. Accordingly, General Soubirou had met General Galic in your
6 absence many times.
7 A. Yes. This is quite natural.
8 Q. Did General Soubirou discuss with you about every item of
9 correspondence that left his desk, or did he show you such correspondence
10 every time such document was issued by him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did he discuss with you about the contents of all the meetings he
13 conducted with General Galic?
14 A. No, he did not.
15 Q. To a question from the Defence - and I will repeat it to you
16 verbatim - "were you ever present at meetings with General Galic during
17 which he would have been forwarded such written protests concerning one or
18 more sniping incidents, precise and identified sniping incidents?" And
19 your response was, "No, specifically in the written form I never saw such
20 protests in meetings with General Galic."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The question was, sir, with regard to written protests. Isn't
23 that the case?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was it the case that protests were sometimes made in the course of
2 A. Absolutely.
3 Q. Have you yourself made such a protest to any person?
4 A. I made some protests to commanders of brigades, both at the
5 Bosnian side and at the -- I mean, at the presidential side and the
6 Serbian side. We made such protests in Zuc, we made such protests inside
7 the city. This is quite natural. This is daily, routine work.
8 Q. When you made protests to -- commanders of the brigades of the
9 Serbian side, how did you convey your protests? What did you tell them?
10 You do not have to say it verbatim, but what type of protests were these?
11 A. Well, I cannot recall it word for word, of course, but we would
12 say something like this: From your side there came some shelling,
13 although we have come to a cease-fire arrangement. And the answer would
14 usually be, "We have also been fired upon," and I could never find the
15 truth from any side. And to any protests we would hear in response that,
16 "We have been also fired at and we were firing in return."
17 Q. Sir, when you use the word "firing," do you also include shelling
18 as well as sniping?
19 A. Those would be firing as from -- from mortars, from firearms, and
20 including the sniper firings.
21 Q. About how many such protests did you make to the commander -- the
22 brigade commanders on the Serbian side during the course of your tenure in
23 Sarajevo? If you cannot remember, it's okay. Or if you can, give an
24 approximate number.
25 A. Well, this is impossible because practically if such incidents
1 were taking place, then immediately we would respond to such incidents.
2 This could be happening even two times a day. It could be once a week. I
3 cannot tell you -- count this.
4 Q. So it would be -- I beg your pardon. It would be too many to
6 A. Right. And the presidency side -- but I can say the same about
7 the presidency side.
8 Q. Sir, to a question from the Defence counsel - and I will repeat
9 this verbatim - "as a result, should I infer from this that --" no, it
10 goes on "should I infer from this that if there were facts which justified
11 a protest to be made to General Galic, then General Soubirou would not
12 have failed to react?" And your response was, "Well, I cannot recall at
13 the moment such instances. I know that after the shelling of Sarajevo he
14 would go to General Galic and General Soubirou would talk to him. But
15 whether this was on paper or not, I cannot tell you this."
16 Sir, were you in saying "General Soubirou could talk to General
17 Galic after shelling of Sarajevo," were you present at such discussions
19 A. Well, now I cannot recall at the moment. I was present at a
20 number of discussions. I had my own functions. For example, I was
21 collecting the Serbian weapons when the agreement was reached. I was
22 collecting those arms and the weapons we were placing with the security
23 guards from the outside. Next to every point where there were heavy
24 weapons, tanks, mortar weapons from the Serbian side. And the Bosnian
25 weapons heavy weapons were collected inside Sarajevo in the Tito barracks.
1 Q. You said that you were sometimes present when General Soubirou
2 discussed issues with General Galic. Isn't that the case, sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did those discussions also include shelling of Sarajevo, which you
5 have referred to in your testimony earlier?
6 A. Well, there were such negotiations as well. There were
7 negotiations on the conduct of convoys, whether humanitarian aid, that
8 they did not get detained on the way. We he would negotiations on the
9 work and transportation of civilian doctors. We also discussed the
10 question of water supply to Sarajevo and the reconstruction works were
11 discussed, the removal of the construction and the removal of trash and
12 debris. All these issues were discussed constantly.
13 Q. When you refer to the words "there were such negotiations as
14 well," could you elaborate more as to how shelling of Sarajevo was
15 negotiated. In what sense did you mean negotiated with General Galic?
16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object
19 because in the answer given by the witness --
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if --
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] If we look --
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think it might be prudent to ask the witness
23 to remove his headphones and perhaps -- or turn it to another Translation
24 Unit since --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please change the channel,
1 since you are still speaking French, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll continue in French,
3 Mr. President.
4 First of all, I object a posteriori to the question put by my
5 learned colleague for the following reason: The witness has already
6 answered regarding the shelling that he referred to that he was not
7 present at that meeting between Mr. Soubirou and General Galic. That is
8 the first point.
9 The second point is that when talking about negotiations, many
10 things are covered: Humanitarian aid, convoys, et cetera. But never
11 negotiations on the object of the shelling. And the question that has
12 been put in continuation by my colleague implies that there were
13 negotiations on the shelling, which is not correct. And on those two
14 bases, I object.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, we have a problem unless you also
16 start speaking French. But if --
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, all I can say is that the
18 transcript clearly shows the continuation of the questions and answers,
19 which leads to my -- this particular question. I have not in any way
20 misled the witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just confer.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I may assist, Mr. President. If I may
24 assist, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: From the question: Did those -- you said that
2 you were sometimes present to that point -- from that point onwards.
3 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] That's -- could you give
4 us a line and a page.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I don't know whether -- I don't know whether
8 it's the same. Line 22 on my page, page 67. I don't know whether my
9 numbering here on this PC is the same as yours, Mr. President.
10 It's the third question before the objection, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne. No, we are looking a bit more
12 back in time.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The pages seem all to be different.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could you also repeat your source
17 you gave me. I've forgotten.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Page 67 -- I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
19 Page 67, line 22. It starts at, "You said."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at page 67, going on to page 68, the answers
21 seem not to be unambiguous. So the Prosecution is allowed to seek
22 confirmation of how it understands the answer, but in a prudent way.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 I beg your pardon, Mr. President. If I may just take a moment.
25 Q. Sir, I asked you a question in this manner. I will repeat it to
1 you. I referred to the discussions conducted by General Soubirou with
2 General Galic where you were present. And referring to such discussions
3 where you were personally present, I ask you this question: Did those
4 discussions also include shelling of Sarajevo, which you have referred to
5 in your testimony earlier? And your response was, "Well, there was such
6 negotiations as well." You said so, sir. Now --
7 A. I would like to say --
8 Q. I haven't asked you the question, sir.
9 A. Please do.
10 Q. Could you clarify as to how shelling of Sarajevo was negotiated by
11 General Soubirou and General Galic. How did -- what was the contents of
12 the discussion? I don't expect you to answer in verbatim sense, but if
13 you can just say what took place.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Apart
16 from the fact that the term "negotiation" I find shocking, I wonder
17 whether you also answered -- responded to my objection a moment ago when I
18 was explaining the question of the bombing, the shelling that we are still
19 referring to, that the witness already gave a negative answer to that
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point exactly on where the negative
22 answer was given, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I cannot,
24 because on this model of computer I am very inefficient, even more so than
25 with others.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. Mr. Tsynchenko, you have talked --
2 you have testified about meetings where shelling was discussed. I'm not
3 talk about negotiations, but where shelling of the city was discussed.
4 You said that such meetings took place. Have you ever been present during
5 a meeting where shelling of the city was discussed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to clarify with
7 your permission. I was present mostly at those meetings -- I was
8 constantly present and mostly at those meetings when we were discussing
9 the issue of -- the conclusion of an agreement on the cease-fire, on the
10 collection of the firearms which cannot be transported out of the area,
11 and also those areas which -- those weapons which can be brought outside
12 the Sarajevo zone by 20 kilometres. This involved a lot of technical
13 issues and a lot of meetings were held at various levels, and I was -- I
14 personally was responsible and was nominated by General Soubirou -- I was
15 nominated as the responsible person for those issues and I personally
16 would go to those areas and would fly there by myself and with him to
17 those points to places where we would collect armaments. This was a long
18 negotiations process. We held meetings at the highest level. We held
19 meetings between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Rose, and Sergio de Mello also
20 participated very actively in this process. So I was present mostly at
21 such types of meetings.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My question was: Were you ever present at a
23 meeting where shelling as such was discussed, the shelling of the city
24 that --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I was.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that protests, both concerning shelling
2 and sniping, were almost made at -- on a daily basis. Would you consider
3 such protests not to be a discussion on shelling or ...?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was mostly oral protests.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So to that extent, shelling was often subject
6 of the conversation.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not think that it was very
8 often that the level of General Galic, these things were discussed with
9 him. But with his subordinates, with the chief of staff, with the
10 artillery commanders, this issue was discussed much more often.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So mainly on the lower level and sometimes
12 with -- in meetings with General Galic as well. Is that a correct
13 understanding of your testimony?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please continue, Ms. Mahindaratne.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
17 Q. Sir, to a question from the Bench just now you answered, "I do not
18 think that it was very often that at the level of General Galic these
19 things were discussed with him." Now, you clearly testified, sir, that
20 you did not participate in the meetings between General Soubirou and
21 General Galic constantly and it was only some meetings where General
22 Galic's subordinate officers were present, that you were present. Isn't
23 that the case, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If that be the case, how could you so ultimately state that such
1 things were -- that you don't think that such things were discussed at the
2 level of General Galic because you did not in fact participate in those
3 meetings. Isn't that the case, sir?
4 A. Well, I did not get the substance of the question. I'm sorry.
5 Q. Sir, you did not participate at most of the meetings conducted
6 between General Soubirou and General Galic or between General Galic and
7 other senior officers of UNPROFOR. Isn't that the case?
8 A. I'm sorry, which other senior officials? You mean General Rose
9 and ...?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Viktor Andreev?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No, that was not my level.
14 Q. Yes. So therefore, you would not be able to say or state as to
15 what transpired at those meetings. Isn't that the case, sir?
16 A. At the confidential level, no, I could not say. But approximately
17 which issues would be discussed at those meetings, I would know that.
18 Q. What made you say that shelling was not discussed so often at the
19 level of General Galic, especially in view of the fact that you did not
20 meet -- or you did not participate at those meetings so often?
21 A. If I may, I would like to clarify. General Soubirou was not
22 always himself in the Sarajevo sector. General Galic was in command of
23 his corps and was not always as well in that area. In order for a meeting
24 to take place, it was necessary to organise that meeting. If these were
25 daily contacts, then nobody would be in command over any army and nobody
1 would be taking care of any other business except for going and visiting
2 each other and holding meetings.
3 I would say that active exchange of meetings were taking place
4 when we were talking about a cease-fire and collection of armaments.
5 These meetings were taking place very often.
6 Q. Sir, your testimony was that General Soubirou met General Galic in
7 your absence. That was clearly your testimony. Wasn't that the case? Or
8 if I may rephrase, you did not participate at all the meetings conducted
9 between General Soubirou and General Galic.
10 A. Of course not. This was not possible.
11 Q. Sir, you referred to chief of staff of General Galic with whom you
12 said shelling has been discussed, in addition to brigade commanders. Do
13 you know the name of the chief of staff of General Galic?
14 A. To be honest, I don't remember exactly his name but I remember he
15 was a colonel. I think a lot of time has already lapsed since then, many
17 Q. Did you have contact with him?
18 A. Yes, of course I did have contact with him.
19 Q. In saying that shelling was discussed with the chief of staff and
20 the brigade commanders, did you also yourself make such protests to the
21 chief of staff of General Galic?
22 A. Well, it's very difficult to say protest, because no written
23 protests were handed over. We would come over and we would say, "Another
24 shelling or firing has taken place from this and that area on Sarajevo."
25 And I cannot simply explain how this would work. It's not that I come
1 over and I say, "I would like to protest, or to launch a protest." No, we
2 were -- we came to talk and to discuss the issue of the cessation of fire
3 activity, and this process was going on for a long time, because both
4 parties were not -- were rather reluctant to reach the agreement.
5 Q. So you prefer not to use the word "protest." Let me ask you in
6 this manner: Did you discuss shelling of Sarajevo with the chief of staff
7 of General Galic?
8 A. Yes, we did discuss that question.
9 Q. Often?
10 A. Not very often, no. Well, the system was a little bit different
11 because liaison officers were working in most instances who had constant
12 meetings, and every one of them had his own functions.
13 Q. You said that you made sometimes daily, sometimes twice a day, and
14 sometimes weekly protests to the brigade commanders about shelling of
15 Sarajevo. You personally made those protests. You said that in your
17 A. I did not make such protests personally, but this was done by
18 UNPROFOR, by those commanders of battalions which found themselves at the
19 line of contact with that party.
20 Q. Sir, your testimony was that protests were made by you to the
21 brigade commanders. That was your testimony.
22 A. I didn't mean myself personally. I meant commanders of battalions
23 and officers of the Sarajevo sector.
24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could my
25 colleague cite the place where exactly the witness made this reference.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think in French I heard you say that he personally
2 made this protest, but that were not the words of Ms. Mahindaratne. She
3 said that you did it, and I think she got a clarification for that. So
4 unless you insist. But it was the answer that the witness testified that
5 he did not personally make these protests. But it was not the question.
6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Quite, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
9 Q. Would you know the -- would you be able to identify these brigades
10 of the Serbian army to which these protests were made by UNPROFOR about
11 shelling of Sarajevo?
12 A. I don't remember the names of brigades. Do you have a map, by any
14 Q. If you don't remember, that should be all right.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No more questions, Mr. President. That
16 concludes cross-examination.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
18 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Microphone not activated].
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.
21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
22 Yes, Mr. President. Are we continuing up to 7.00 or quarter past
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, certainly not to quarter past 7.00. We'll
25 continue to --
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We have some eight or nine minutes left because of
3 the tapes, so we'll certainly finish at five minutes to 7.00, not one
4 second later.
5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's perfect.
6 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, just a minute ago, in response to a
8 question put to you by my learned colleague, a question that -- which
9 concerned your response in relation to Zetra, you said that the line that
10 you traced on the map did not indicate where fire was coming from but it
11 indicated the direction that anti-sniper weapons were pointing in. Do you
12 remember stating this? It's page 74, line 4 in the transcript.
13 A. Yes, I remember that.
14 Q. Very well. Witness, if you indicated that these weapons were
15 pointing in that direction, then my question is as follows: What were
16 these weapons pointing at? I'm referring to the anti-sniper weapons.
17 A. They were pointing to the direction from which the sniper fire
18 originated. Weapons cannot be directed to any other side except the side
19 for which the fire is originating. I just wanted to be very specific in
20 giving my answers.
21 Q. Witness, thank you for this answer. Have I understood your
22 testimony correctly: The line that you traced on the map marks both the
23 direction in which anti-sniper weapons were pointing and as a result also
24 the direction from which fire was coming. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Thank you for your answer.
2 Witness, I would now like to go back to certain other issues. You
3 spoke in response to a question from the Prosecution about the school in
4 Alipasino Polje. I don't know whether you remember this, but for us it
5 was page 53 approximately. Do you remember the answer that you provided
7 A. I said that that was not a school but a children's playground in
8 the vicinity of a school. At the time, there were children there. That
9 was around 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning.
10 Q. Witness, did you, the UN forces, ever carry out an investigation
11 into this incident? I'm talking about a technical investigation.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object. This is not an issue
15 that comes out from cross-examination, about an investigation into a
16 shelling incident.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you tell us where
18 investigations of shelling incidents were dealt with in cross-examination.
19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, obviously there
20 is no direct relation to the question of investigations, but the
21 Prosecution did raise the issue of the shelling of a school -- the issue
22 of a shelling that we didn't mention. To the extent that this issue was
23 raised, I think that it is Defence's right to ask whether investigations
24 were carried out, because one of the important issues is to know whether
25 the information came through and if so, how. I have to admit that I
1 can -- I am no longer able to use my computer, unfortunately.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether that causes the problem,
3 but I will allow you one question. But please direct it in the relation
4 you just indicated. So the question was about the details of what
5 happened in the playground near a school and so investigations in that
6 respect. I'll allow you to ask questions about that.
7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 Q. Witness, with regard to this incident, do you know - yes or no -
9 whether investigations were instigated with regard to this incident? And
10 if so, what might have been the result of these investigations?
11 A. Yes, that's right. There was an investigation carried out after
12 every incident. I know that for a fact. As to the conclusions that were
13 reached after that investigation, I can't tell you anything because the
14 experts that led that investigation came from the staff of General Rose.
15 There were some French experts there, British experts as well. We did not
16 have our own experts in the Sarajevo sectors that could have carried out
17 such investigation.
18 Q. Thank you for your answer. As far as two other questions that
19 were put to you by the Prosecution and which concern the number of
20 protests lodged, you said that there were numerous protests. I'm
21 referring to page 65 and 66. So my question now is as follows: When you
22 say that there were numerous protests that were made, first of all what
23 did this concern as a general rule? And secondly, did this concern
24 protests made against just one of the parties or were the protests made in
25 relation to both sides?
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think that last question has already been answered
2 in a previous moment, so the first -- it's my recollection that you said
3 that protest was made to both parties. Is my understanding correct?
4 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then please answer the first part of
6 the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both sides -- that's right, both
8 sides lodged protests. And as to the other question, I'll explain why
9 there were numerous. Because when one reads the reports, one can see that
10 there was firearms, fire, mortar fire, and so on. And commanders at
11 various levels lodged in such protests almost on a daily basis; therefore,
12 I can't say that General Soubirou went to see General Galic daily in order
13 to lodge in protests. I can't say that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Part of the question.
15 I'm looking at the clock and keeping in mind the tape. And
16 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, how much time would you still need?
17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. I have also noticed
18 that, Mr. President. I have another three or four questions,
19 unfortunately. I think that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Try to do this as efficiently as possible. But
21 tomorrow morning I think ten minutes would be certainly enough for three
22 or four questions -- tomorrow in the afternoon. Yes, of course. I'm
23 making a mistake.
24 Mr. Tsynchenko, we'll adjourn until tomorrow. I don't think it
25 will take much time tomorrow in the afternoon, presumably not more than
1 half an hour to three quarters of an hour. Yes, we'll adjourn until
2 tomorrow at quarter past 2.00. May I instruct you not to speak with
3 anyone about the testimony you have given or you're about to give
4 tomorrow, not with anyone, not with the parties, with no one. We expect
5 you to be back tomorrow at quarter past 2.00. It will not take very long,
6 I take it.
7 We'll adjourn until tomorrow in the afternoon, the same courtroom,
8 quarter past 2.00.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
10 at 6.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
11 the 9th day of January, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.