Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17368

1 Monday, 13 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and also to

6 those who are assisting us just outside the courtroom.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Stanislav Galic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 I was informed that the next witness is to be -- witness to be

12 called by the Defence is Victor Vorobev, and that the Defence failed to

13 make an application for translation to Russian today, and by that risked

14 that we would lose another day. I take it that this will not happen

15 again.

16 I also was informed that the witness offered to testify in B/C/S.

17 We'll check whether this is possible.

18 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to

20 inform the Trial Chamber that on the 4th of December, the Defence provided

21 a submission to the Registry in which it requested an interpreter for the

22 8th, 9th, and the 10th. The only problem was that there was a mistake in

23 that on Friday the Defence didn't inform the Trial Chamber that they would

24 need an interpreter for Monday too. But we thought that since we had

25 provided a list of the witnesses on time that it would be taken for

Page 17369

1 granted that an interpreter would be necessary for Mr. Vorobev as well.

2 But since during the preparations for Mr. Vorobev I was using B/C/S, Mr.

3 Vorobev agreed with the Defence that we should speak in B/C/S.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also understood that he wants a Russian

5 interpretation for tomorrow, so --

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, it's not just agreed upon that the

8 testimony would be in B/C/S. Could the Defence make an application in

9 writing immediately to CLSS for tomorrow so that we have the -- everything

10 on the record that the translation services can work on it so that we

11 solve the problem more easily tomorrow.

12 Is the Defence ready to call Mr. Vorobev?

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then please escort Mr. Vorobev into the courtroom.

15 Yes, Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, while we're waiting for the witness, I

17 thought it might be an opportune moment for me to inform the Defence and

18 the Trial Chamber that with respect to Anatoli Kruk, the Prosecution has

19 completed its searches on him and I know that he's scheduled for the 22nd

20 and 23rd of January, the Prosecution will be ready at that time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your information. So that means that

22 there is no objection as far as the time needed for cross-examination, in

23 respect of the time -- the day on which Mr. Kruk will be called.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vorobev, do you understand me in -- do you hear

Page 17370

1 me in a language you understand?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you in Serbian.

3 THE INTERPRETER: But could the witness's microphone please be put

4 on.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please put on the microphones.

6 Yes. I do understand that my words are translated to you in what

7 you call Serbian and what we usually call Bosnian/Serbian/Croatian, or

8 Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian. That's not your mother tongue, I understand.

9 Is that correct?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My mother tongue is Russian, but

11 today I can speak in B/C/S.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is it true that you feel that you're mastering that

13 language sufficiently to testify in B/C/S?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have spoken to General Galic's

15 lawyers in B/C/S.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would have any difficulty during your

17 testimony to understand what is said to you in B/C/S or - and now I'm

18 addressing the interpreters - if the interpreters would have any

19 difficulty in understanding or translating what the witness says in B/C/S,

20 I'd like to be informed immediately. And I can inform both you,

21 Mr. Vorobev, and the interpreters that everything is done at this moment

22 to see whether we can have a Russian interpreter for tomorrow.

23 Mr. Vorobev, before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

24 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

25 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And

Page 17371

1 the text will be handed out to you now by the usher in B/C/S, I take it.

2 Mr. Usher -- yes, that's the B/C/S version. May I invite you to make that

3 solemn declaration.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You'll be first examined by counsel for the Defence.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vorobev.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Before I start asking you a series of questions, I would like you

17 to give us your full name, please.

18 A. My name is Victor Vorobev.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us your date of birth.

20 A. I was born in 1954 on the 11th of May.

21 Q. Could you tell us what your educational background is. What

22 schools have you completed?

23 A. In St. Petersburg, I finished the three-year cadet school, and

24 then I finished a parachute school in 1986. I then finished an academy in

25 Moscow in 1988 with excellent results.

Page 17372

1 Q. With such military education, can you tell us where you worked and

2 where you are currently working, after having completed this education.

3 A. I worked in the former Soviet Union. I worked in Afghanistan for

4 two years. I worked in Yugoslavia for 18 months and in other places where

5 the Russian parachute unit had tasks.

6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where you're working now.

7 A. I'm retired now. I run a business of my own in Moscow.

8 Q. Thank you. You told us that you worked in Yugoslavia.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you tell us in what capacity did you go to Yugoslavia and

11 when?

12 A. I went to Yugoslavia in April 1993 as deputy commander of the

13 Russian Battalion in Klisa, near Vukovar, and Osijek in Serbian Krajina.

14 Q. So you're telling us that as deputy commander of the Russian

15 Battalion you went to Vukovar. Was your battalion a battalion which was

16 part of UNPROFOR?

17 A. Yes. The battalion was part of UNPROFOR, and it had to perform

18 UNPROFOR tasks.

19 Q. Can you tell us as a member of the Russian Battalion and as a

20 member of UNPROFOR you spent a certain period of time in the area of

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, to be more specific, in Sarajevo.

22 A. On the 19th of February, 1994 I arrived with 500 men from the

23 battalion in Vukovar. We arrived in Sarajevo. And I was the commander of

24 the 2nd Russian Battalion in Sarajevo from February to November 1994 --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

Page 17373

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your last answer. You were

2 commander of the 2nd Russian Battalion -- the interpreters have not heard

3 the whole answer, so could you please repeat your answer. You have told

4 us about the period of time you spent in Sarajevo.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. On the 18th of February

6 the Russian Battalion in Vukovar had the task from the Russian ministry to

7 go to Sarajevo with 500 men and to deploy itself in Vrace.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Thank you. So Mr. Vorobev, you are telling us that from the 19th

10 of February, 1994, as commander of the Russian Battalion, which consisted

11 of 500 men, you arrived at Sarajevo in that capacity and you were in the

12 territory that you have called Vrace.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Vorobev, you said you stayed there until the 5th of November,

15 1994 in Sarajevo.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Throughout your stay in Sarajevo as commander of the Russian

18 Battalion, did you have 500 men?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did the composition of the battalion change?

21 A. At the beginning of April, another 300 men came from Russia to the

22 battalion.

23 Q. Mr. Vorobev, when you arrived in Sarajevo, can you tell us, as a

24 member of the Russian Battalion and as the commander, under whose command

25 were you?

Page 17374

1 A. The Russian Battalion had to perform UNPROFOR tasks, and it was

2 subordinated to the commander of the Sarajevo sector, General Soubirou.

3 Q. Mr. Vorobev, you have told us that your battalion arrived in

4 Sarajevo in the Vrace territory, in the Vrace area. Can you tell us as

5 commander of the battalion what kind of a task did you have?

6 A. As commander of the battalion, my task was to provide security

7 along the demarcation line and security in the zone of responsibility of

8 the battalion which was assigned to me by General Soubirou.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vorobev, when you tell us that your task was to

10 deploy along the demarcation lines between the warring factions, can you

11 tell us what the length of the demarcation line was along which you were

12 deployed.

13 A. The length of the demarcation line was about 4 and a half

14 kilometres, and the depth was about -- between 1 and 1 and a half

15 kilometres.

16 Q. Can you tell us how you organised the deployment of your men along

17 the demarcation line. In which manner was this deployment executed?

18 A. We established observation points along the demarcation line. We

19 replaced men from the French Battalion at the observation points and at

20 other points. It was established where it would be possible to see both

21 sides in optimal conditions.

22 Q. Mr. Vorobev, have I understood you correctly? You have told us

23 that you replaced three positions with members of the French Battalion and

24 that the other positions were ones that you determined in accordance with

25 your decision as to where visibility was best, visibility of both sides?

Page 17375

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Can you tell us how many such observation posts there were along

3 the demarcation line that was secured by your battalion?

4 A. There were 12 observation points along the demarcation line.

5 Q. Can you tell us where the command of your staff was, the command

6 of your battalion that was under your command. In which building was it

7 located and where?

8 A. The command of the battalion, the staff, was located in the police

9 school in Vrace.

10 Q. At those observation posts - and you have told us that there were

11 12 of them - how many members of your battalion stayed in one place, in

12 one position?

13 A. Well, usually one platoon would be assigned to one location, and

14 occasionally in some places two platoons.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a map

16 which we received from Mr. Vorobev. It has been suggested as Defence

17 Exhibit D85 [as interpreted], and it has been disclosed to the

18 Prosecution. The Defence would like to show Mr. Vorobev this map, but we

19 only have one copy. Perhaps it would be useful to show the witness this

20 map so that he can use it to show us and you and our colleagues from the

21 Prosecution --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, could perhaps the Chamber first get a

23 general impression of the map so that if we look at parts of the map on

24 the ELMO that at least we've seen the whole, so as to know --

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

Page 17376

1 THE REGISTRAR: Can you please repeat the D number,

2 Ms. Pilipovic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was D85.

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] D185. 185.

5 Your Honour, it's a number that the Defence gave to the map on the

6 list of exhibits of the Defence.

7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has a

9 colour copy of this map too. It's the original. But it was a problem for

10 us to copy it.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, would you please give it some thought

14 whether it will be possible for us to follow your questions on the ELMO

15 rather than on a kind of a board, because one thing is for sure, that what

16 I see, these lines on the small parts of it could be shown on the ELMO.

17 So even from a distance, having looked at the map -- if you go through

18 broad lines, then perhaps it could be better put on a board. If you want

19 to pay attention to details, then perhaps it could be better put on the

20 ELMO. Would you please give it some consideration what would be the best

21 way to inform the Chamber.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that the area

23 of responsibility of the battalion can also be seen on the ELMO. That

24 might be a better idea, since Mr. Vorobev would point precisely on the map

25 where the positions were, the observation positions on the map.

Page 17377

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll leave it to you. But I ask you to give it some

2 consideration.

3 Could it be please put on the ELMO, the map.

4 And what part, Ms. Pilipovic?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We just need a section of the map

6 where the area of responsibility has been marked with those thick black

7 lines, the area of responsibility of the battalion.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that as a whole does not fit on the ELMO,

9 does it? What part would you like to more specifically show us?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what we can do is

11 first discuss with Mr. Vorobev one part. If he can show us the places

12 where the observers were. And then we can go on to another section of the

13 map, because I think --

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... though -- I

15 mean, the only thing I've got to do is --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] We can start with east, with the

17 east of the map.

18 Q. Mr. Vorobev, could you tell us, on this section of the map that we

19 can see on the ELMO what is first of all marked by these black lines?

20 A. With these black lines -- what is marked with the black lines is

21 the area of responsibility of the battalion, and these black dots, these

22 are the observation posts.

23 Q. Can you tell us which observation post is that? Do you know?

24 A. This is observation post -- the first one, number 1. First there

25 is an observation point located at the Vidikovac restaurant. This is

Page 17378

1 where we replaced the French Platoon. This is where we placed our own

2 platoon, number 5 and number 4, here.

3 Q. Thank you. If we look at the map in this section, in this part,

4 we can see only one observation post in this area.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before continuing, would you please for the sake of

7 the record explain where the witness pointed at when he was referring to

8 the observation post, at which the --

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- Replaced the French Battalion.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

12 On the map, the witness indicated the black lines as being the

13 lines marking the area of responsibility of the battalion in that

14 part -- in that part of the city. On the right-hand side in the middle

15 between the demarcation lines he indicated a point as being an observation

16 point. He indicated a dot as being observation post, as being Vidikovac

17 Restaurant, which is what it says on the map. And the witness explained

18 that this was observation post which used to be a position of the members

19 of the French Battalion.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please zoom in on the restaurant, because

21 you say it reads the restaurant. But I am totally unable to read

22 whatever. Could we zoom in on that part so that we can --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I see that the reference to Vidikovac

24 restaurant is a very good one. But we couldn't read it before.

25 Please proceed.

Page 17379

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Vorobev, if we go towards the west on your map --

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the usher, please,

4 if he can move the map now.

5 Q. Mr. Vorobev, can you tell us if this observation post that we

6 called Vidikovac Restaurant, did this observation post have its own sign

7 or a symbol?

8 A. We also had the observation post number 3. That was the Jewish

9 cemetery.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before he answered

11 the question, what was the point, what was the number of the Vidikovac

12 Restaurant, he pointed to the observation post on the map, observation

13 post number 3.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I go on?

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] He explained that the number 3

16 observation post was located above the upper black line as the line of the

17 area of responsibility of the battalion going towards the north and that

18 this point, point number 3, or dot number 3, below which it says

19 "observation post number 3," that this position, this post, was the

20 observation post on the Jewish cemetery, as was explained by the witness.

21 Q. I will now go on a bit further about the observation post number

22 3. Mr. Vorobev, did you personally go to the area of the Jewish cemetery

23 where observation post of your battalion was located?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us how frequently did you go to this observation

Page 17380

1 post?

2 A. Every week, once or twice perhaps -- no, I didn't go every day.

3 Q. Can you tell us whether at this observation post there were one or

4 two of your platoons.

5 A. One platoon.

6 Q. Can you tell us, this position that we called the Jewish cemetery,

7 how long was the distance between the lines of the warring parties? Do

8 you remember?

9 A. I think it was about 300 metres.

10 Q. Can you tell us, the Jewish cemetery, what was the position of the

11 lines of the warring parties?

12 A. On one side there was the cemetery, on this side, here. That's

13 where the Bosnian army was positioned. And on the other side of the

14 cemetery was the Serb army was positioned.

15 Q. Mr. Vorobev --

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the record,

17 Mr. Vorobev explained that the eastern side of the cemetery was under the

18 control of the Bosnian army, as he put it, and that the western side was

19 under the control of the Serb army.

20 Q. Mr. Vorobev --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask, Ms. Pilipovic: The witness in my

22 recollection made a rather vague gesture, which I could not identify as

23 clearly east or west. So could we please ask the witness. I got the

24 impression that it was rather more north and south than east and west.

25 But we could ask you. You said at one side of the -- of the

Page 17381

1 cemetery, you said "on this side here," and then you pointed at something,

2 that the Bosnian army was positioned, and at the other side of the

3 cemetery the Serb army was positioned. Could you please tell us in more

4 detail where the Bosnian army was and where the Serbian army was, the Serb

5 army was.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Vorobev, on the map can you tell us more precisely -- that is,

8 could you indicate.

9 A. On this side, on this side, that was the Bosnian army. And on

10 this side was the Serb army.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ORIE: It's not clear because of the -- could we perhaps

13 zoom in on the --

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Vorobev, on the map could you indicate precisely the position

16 on the map which indicates the Jewish cemetery. Can you see that place?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If the map could be lowered,

18 please.

19 Q. Where the observation post number 3 is.

20 A. [Indicates]

21 Q. In relation to the position that you indicate as being the

22 cemetery, can you tell us on which side or to which side were the

23 positions of the Bosnian army and where the positions of the Serb army, in

24 relation to the cemetery that you are pointing to now.

25 A. On this side, on this side Bosnian army; on this side Serb army.

Page 17382

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, the witness points

2 to north-east position as being the Bosnian army position and the

3 south-west area as being the Serb army position in relation to the Jewish

4 cemetery.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We wondered whether any marking would be

7 better. But we have enlarged very much at this moment the -- and I know

8 that it's the only map but -- would marking not be a better idea,

9 Ms. Pilipovic?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it can be done. Your

11 Honour, then the Defence would submit this as a Defence exhibit.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Are we sure that the witness is holding a black pen?

13 Yes. And is it fine enough? Because I know that the map is a different

14 scale from what we see on the screen now.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Vorobev, first of all, can you mark with the pen the positions

17 of the BH army as you indicated them to be in relation to the Jewish

18 cemetery, according to what you said.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you do that by very small crosses, so a line

20 consisting of small crosses. And that would then be the BH lines. Do you

21 understand what I mean by "small crosses," to make a line consisting of --

22 or if you prefer, a dotted line is fine as well.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it possible to use just dots?


25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 17383

1 Q. Dots would be fine.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Could you please make the line a little thicker, please.

4 A. [Marks]

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

6 Defence would propose that the witness marks the positions of the Serb

7 army with a full line.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. Vorobev, could you use a straight line in relation to the

11 position of the Jewish cemetery. If you can mark, as you indicated

12 already the positions of the Serb army.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vorobev, while we're still in the area of the

15 Jewish cemetery, can you tell us, considering that you've already told us

16 that you went there, whether in this area there was a chapel.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us, where was this chapel?

19 A. Here.

20 Q. Can you draw a circle there and put number "1" here.

21 A. There is here a sign for a chapel. That is for a church here on

22 the map.

23 Q. Can you put a circle around it.

24 A. Yes, I can. Here it is.

25 Q. Yes. Mr. Vorobev, do you personally know which army or whether

Page 17384

1 was there any -- were there any troops in the area of the chapel.

2 A. In this area, there was the Bosnian army on the north and the

3 east.

4 Q. Thank you very much.

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if it is necessary

6 for the record, we can mark as east being the positions of the Bosnian

7 army, as the witness marked it with a dotted line, and we can say that the

8 south-west is where the positions were of the Serb army, that is, of the

9 Army of Republika Srpska, denoted with the full line.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you allow me to ask for some clarification,

11 because it's not quite clear to me where exactly the witness located the

12 Jewish cemetery. If we look at the line with which you indicated the Serb

13 positions, the Serb line, would that be outside the cemetery or just at

14 where the cemetery ends? I mean, that line, is that the border of the

15 cemetery, or is it more east from the cemetery, at a certain distance from

16 the cemetery? Could you please point at -- now at the Serb -- at the Serb

17 line you indicated with your hand over the pointer. Do you understand

18 what I mean?

19 The line you've drawn indicating the Serb positions, could you

20 please point at them.

21 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that at the border of the cemetery or is it

23 outside the cemetery? These lines, is it just where the cemetery ends or

24 is it at a certain distance from the cemetery?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a little bit outside of the

Page 17385

1 cemetery. Here now I can't point precisely.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Vorobev --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, can

5 we just clarify. If you say "just a little bit outside of the cemetery,"

6 in relation to the cemetery, how far were the positions of the Republika

7 Srpska army?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How far from the cemetery is that line you've

9 just drawn?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it 50 metres, 100 metres, 200

11 metres?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 20 metres, I think.

13 JUDGE ORIE: 20 metres. Thank you.

14 And your position is then -- your observation post is -- on this

15 map, as you have marked it now, is closer to the cemetery than the Serb

16 line; is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And then my last question to clarify issues: The way

19 you have marked the BiH positions, is that in the north the BiH positions

20 were north of the chapel; is that correct?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not correct.

22 JUDGE ORIE: But you -- okay. But then please clarify, because

23 the dotted line you've drawn in the north is north from where the chapel

24 is indicated on the map. I saw you marking the positions, I would say, at

25 approximately what I consider to be a road just north of the chapel. But

Page 17386

1 if you say that's not correct, could you then please rectify or explain to

2 us how it was.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the line. This line is the

4 position of the army.


6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the chapel was very close to the

7 army positions, 10 metres and not more than that. And this chapel was

8 under the control of the Bosnian army.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say that although the chapel was just

10 south of the lines, it was under the control of the BiH army.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your clarification.

13 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

14 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Vorobev, when you tell us that you went to the place that we

16 called the Jewish cemetery and marked it as such, in the area of the

17 chapel did you personally see members of the Bosnian army?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you tell us that in this area of the Jewish cemetery there

20 was your platoon, there was a platoon of yours, can you tell us whether

21 you received from your platoon or from the platoon commander reports on

22 the situation of the warring parties in this area.

23 A. Every day the platoon commander reported to my duty officer at the

24 battalion about the positions of the Bosnian army and the Serb army and

25 about the distance between the two armies.

Page 17387

1 Q. Can you tell us in these reports that you tell us the platoon

2 commander forwarded to your duty officer, what was written in those

3 reports? Do you remember? What was the content of those reports?

4 A. The content of the report was how many times both sides fired, how

5 many other incidents there were in the area of responsibility of the

6 platoon, in the area of responsibility of the observation post, and about

7 the positions --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last word of

9 the witness's answer.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Vorobev, when you tell us that the content --

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I'm sorry. Which was the last word of your

13 last answer? You said something like: "In the area of responsibility of

14 the observation post, and about the positions," and the interpreter

15 couldn't catch the last words.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said was about the --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is unable to understand the

18 witness.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are having problems

20 understanding the witness because I don't speak Russian, unfortunately.

21 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Are you answering in Russian?

22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the French booth would like to say

23 something. The witness speaks B/C/S but with a sort of a Russian syntax.

24 And since I do not speak Russian, I'm really having problems, whereas my

25 colleagues understand Russian.

Page 17388

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you please tell us in Serbian what was the content of the

3 report that you received from your commander, platoon commander.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Since we were confronted now for the first time with

5 a linguistic problem, I'd like to inform the parties that a Russian

6 interpreter is expected to arrive at 10.45, and perhaps with the consent

7 of everyone concerned, perhaps we should take the first break a bit

8 earlier so as to -- and perhaps make it a tiny little bit longer so that

9 everyone will stand by at, I would say, twenty minutes to 11.00 so that we

10 could really start at quarter to 11.00 with the assistance of a Russian

11 interpreter. That would be more comfortable for you as well, I take it,

12 Mr. Vorobev, and for the interpreters as well.

13 So we'll adjourn for 35 minutes so that we are all ready to start

14 at 10.45. If the interpreter would not have arrived yet, it might be a

15 tiny little bit later. But if everyone is on standby at 10.40.

16 We'll adjourn.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.02 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.44 a.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

20 the courtroom and also the interpreter.

21 Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, until the witness

23 appears, the Defence would like to thank the interpretation service for

24 having ensured that the interpreter could be present.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And also the -- yes, I fully support your

Page 17389

1 thanks, and the Chamber does.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 [The interpreter entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, before we continue, the interpreter

5 present - and I'd like him to confirm that - is employed by the Tribunal

6 and has made a solemn declaration at the beginning of his services.

7 Is that correct?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. I am a member of the Tribunal.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So therefore, there's no need to ask the

10 interpreter to make a solemn declaration according to the Rules.

11 Please proceed.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Vorobev, before we had the break, we were discussing the

14 contents of the report which you would receive from the commander of your

15 platoon through the communications officer in your battalion. So the

16 contents of the report from the observation post 3 area. And that is the

17 Jewish cemetery area. Can you tell us what the contents of those reports

18 was?

19 A. The following was included in the daily reports: Commander of

20 platoon reported on the violation of the cease-fire agreement by both

21 sides and also reported on the intensity of fire coming from the both

22 sides. Also, the deployment of the warring sides' troops and other

23 problems that were encountered within the platoon.

24 Q. Mr. Vorobev, as you told us that you received reports on

25 violations of the agreement between the warring factions and under item 2

Page 17390

1 you said on the intensity of fire on both sides, can you tell us whether

2 you were personally able to assess how often the agreement was violated?

3 How frequent was this? And when I say "frequent," I mean in a week. How

4 many times did such violations occur every week?

5 A. In the Jewish cemetery area, it was a daily occurrence.

6 Q. Can you tell us, and did you have any personal knowledge of this

7 when you went there, as to the intensity of fire on both sides? Could you

8 tell us whether the intensity was the same all the time or did it vary in

9 the course of a week, let's say?

10 A. It varied. The intensity was less during day, and the fire was

11 more intense during the night.

12 Q. Mr. Vorobev, you told us that you had 12 observation posts.

13 Before pointing out the areas to us on the map, on the basis of what you

14 can remember and given the time you spent there, can you tell us whether

15 there were certain positions, with regard to those 12 positions, where the

16 firing was most intense, on the basis of the reports that you received?

17 A. The fire was most intense in the area of the Jewish cemetery,

18 where there was the post number 3, as well as in the Grbavica stadium

19 area, post number 5, and in the Mojmilo area, post number 9. Mojmilo is

20 here.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript, Your Honour,

22 the witness pointed to a position which is beneath the Grbavica stadium,

23 north of the stadium. This was under number 5, and between the stadium

24 and the line of the battalion positions. And under number 9 he designated

25 an observation post where he said the fighting was most intense in that

Page 17391

1 area. Observation post number 9 is beneath the Russian Battalion's line,

2 beneath the line and the word "Bogusevac".

3 Q. Mr. Vorobev, you told us that your battalion was organised in such

4 a way that you had observation posts and you told us that there were 12 of

5 them, and you have explained to us how many soldiers there were at each

6 observation post. Apart from this manner of organising the deployment of

7 your men at the lines of demarcation, and apart from this manner of

8 receiving reports, can you tell us whether your soldiers were deployed in

9 some other way and whether they covered the territory of the zone of

10 responsibility of your battalion, and could you get reports from them in

11 these areas, in the area of the zone of responsibility of your battalion?

12 A. Can you please repeat the question.

13 Q. Apart from this manner in which your men were deployed at

14 observation posts, was there some other way that you would deploy your men

15 in the zone of responsibility of your battalion from whom you could gain

16 or obtain reports in the zone of responsibility of your battalion?

17 A. In addition to observation posts in the zone of responsibility of

18 the battalion, there was also a mobile patrol. We had two armoured

19 vehicles that covered the entire area of responsibility and provided

20 information that they collected as they patrolled. The information was

21 supplied either to the duty officer or to me directly.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vorobev, you've told us about observation post

23 number 3 and you said that you received daily reports on the situation in

24 that area where you observed. Can you confirm that with regard to all the

25 other observation posts that you covered in your zone of responsibility,

Page 17392

1 can you confirm that you received reports in the same way?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us what the contents of the reports that you received

4 from other observation posts was?

5 A. It was similar to the content that I described before, the one

6 received from the third post. Violations of the cease-fire agreement,

7 intensity of fire, if there was such, and also if there were any other

8 incidents in the area covered by that post, as well as the situation and

9 problems within the unit itself.

10 Q. You told us that the reports that you received from your

11 observation posts, the daily reports that you received, mentioned

12 incidents. Can you tell us what kind of incidents were concerned. On the

13 basis of your recollection, can you tell us what sort of incidents were

14 specified in those reports?

15 A. If in the area of the observation posts there were any incidents

16 of movement of the troops of the warring sides, then that would be

17 reported. I can give you an example: At the observation post number 5,

18 in the northern area of Grbavica stadium, there was a case when from the

19 Muslim side a man moved to the area occupied by the Serb forces. He was

20 either trying to flee or he was wounded, and he ended up being wounded and

21 we evacuated him in our armoured vehicle to the area covered by our

22 observation post.

23 Following that, he was transferred to the military observers. And

24 I don't know what happened to him afterwards. I was immediately informed

25 about this incident by the commander of the observation post number 5.

Page 17393

1 Q. Mr. Vorobev, when you received such reports about certain specific

2 incidents, did you react when such incidents occurred and did you talk to

3 representatives of the warring sides?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us whom you met from the warring sides. Which

6 representatives of the warring sides did you meet?

7 A. As a general rule, every week either on Thursday or Friday I or my

8 chief of staff would meet with commander of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade,

9 Veljko Stojanovic. He was from the Serb side. In addition to that, my

10 chief of staff would meet with the chief of staff of the brigade which was

11 positioned across from the zone of responsibility of our battalion. He

12 was a representative of the Muslim side. Unfortunately, these meetings

13 were not very frequent. However, we would meet from time to time. And

14 during those meetings, we would express our protest to both sides

15 concerning violations of the cease-fire agreement.

16 Q. When you tell us that these meetings between representatives of

17 the warring sides, when you tell us that these meetings did not occur

18 frequently and that they were meetings that you had with commanders of the

19 brigades or with chiefs of staffs, and when you say that you lodged

20 protests with them about violations of the truth, at those meetings

21 between the warring sides did you receive protests and what were the

22 contents of the protests?

23 A. I did not receive such protests.

24 Q. Mr. Vorobev, at the beginning of our discussion you said that you

25 were subordinated to the sector chief, or rather, the sector commander,

Page 17394

1 General Soubirou. Can you tell us whether as commander of the battalion

2 you had meetings -- or rather, who did you report to, if you reported to

3 anyone?

4 A. Every week on Saturday at noon we would arrive at a meeting with

5 General Soubirou in order to report to him. When I say "we," I mean all

6 commanders within the sector. And then we would report to him one by one.

7 We would report about incidents or quantity of incidents of violations of

8 cease-fire agreements. If there were any other incidents, then they would

9 be reported as well. Then we received certain instructions from the

10 sector commander, General Soubirou.

11 Q. Mr. Vorobev, you've told us that every week on Saturday all the

12 battalion commanders in the Sarajevo sector had a meeting with the sector

13 commander at which you made your reports. While you were in Sarajevo, can

14 you tell us which battalions were present in the Sarajevo sector area?

15 A. There were two French Battalions, one Egyptian Battalion, the

16 Ukrainian one, a Russian Battalion, and the airport command.

17 Q. Apart from the commanders of these battalions you have mentioned

18 and the commander of the airport, were any other UN members present at

19 those meetings?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you tell us who else was present at those meetings?

22 A. Chief of staff of the sector, deputy commander of the sector, and

23 the head of the military observers.

24 Q. Mr. Vorobev, you've told us about the contents of the subject that

25 you discussed at the meeting with Mr. Soubirou. You said that you

Page 17395

1 discussed incidents. Can you tell us what the subject of the discussions

2 was when you discussed incidents, if some of the commanders of battalions

3 was reporting about his area of responsibility. To the best of your

4 recollection, can you be more specific and tell us what the contents of

5 such reports were, the contents of such reports about incidents.

6 A. These were, generally speaking, reports on the amount of

7 violations of the cease-fire agreement and suggestions about the weaponry

8 that was used. That was either small arms or heavy weapons that were

9 used.

10 Q. I don't think you have fully answered my question. You spoke

11 about reports about incidents. Could you be a little more specific, a

12 little more precise, and tell us, apart from the fact that there were

13 reports about violations of the truce and about the sort of weapons that

14 were used by the warring factions, but apart from that at any point in

15 time at those meetings were there any reports about incidents in which in

16 certain zones of responsibility of certain battalions a certain number of

17 men were killed? Did they mention who opened fire? Could you be a little

18 more precise. I don't want to lead you. Were there any such specific

19 reports about specific incidents?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you told us that they discussed the weapons from which fire

22 was opened at the meetings, whether these weapons were of a small or of a

23 large calibre, did you know what sort of weapons the Republika Srpska army

24 had in the zone of responsibility of your battalion?

25 A. Regarding what?

Page 17396

1 Q. With regard to the weapons.

2 A. I knew that Serbian units were mostly equipped with small arms,

3 artillery, and anti-air weaponry that were taken outside of the

4 20-kilometre zone. We controlled the situation in our area of

5 responsibility. Other equipment and heavy weaponry were all kept in the

6 Lukavica area. The only other case that I saw was a non-operational tank

7 in Dobrinja. It was covered and did not open fire. That was on the Serb

8 side.

9 On the Bosnian side --

10 Q. Yes. I wanted to ask you whether you had any information about

11 the deployment of the BH army's weapons.

12 A. No. The only thing I knew was that Muslim units also had small

13 firearms. But we assumed that they had 82-millimetre mortars, because

14 there were these exchanges of fire in the area of the battalion.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, the interpreter in the courtroom

16 needs to be replaced.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I just seek confirmation of the newly

18 arrived interpreter that she has made the solemn declaration at the

19 beginning of her services for the Tribunal and that she's employed by the

20 Tribunal.

21 THE INTERPRETER: I have, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That being confirmed, please proceed,

23 Ms. Pilipovic.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Vorobev, when you answered my question about whether you had

Page 17397

1 any information concerning the weaponry available to the BH army, you told

2 me, I think, that you knew that they had 82-millimetre mortars and that

3 you had established that in situations when fire would be exchanged. Did

4 I understand your answer well?

5 A. Yes, you did.

6 Q. When you said "exchange of fire," can you tell us how often was

7 there such an exchange of fire between the warring parties in your

8 battalion's area of responsibility? Can you tell us that? How frequent

9 was it?

10 A. It happened every day, except that the intensity varied.

11 Q. When you told us that in your view it happened every day but that

12 the intensity varied, were you able to identify the places from which the

13 warring parties acted with regard to the exchange of fire?

14 Are you able to identify the source of fire of the BH army?

15 A. Not always.

16 Q. When you say "not always," it means that on some occasions you

17 were able to do that.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us whether you recall such a situation when you were

20 able to determine the direction.

21 A. Well, let's say when the battalion's headquarters was hit by a

22 shell of, I think, 82 millimetres and it exploded on the asphalt in front

23 of the control checkpoint of the battalion. On the -- the traces and the

24 asphalt and the fragment showed that the shell had passed from the OP5

25 from the Muslim side, because all the fragments flew southward. In other

Page 17398

1 instances, when there was fire in the immediate area of the observation

2 posts, my subordinates were able to see from which buildings the fire came

3 from the Muslim side and not as frequently they could also see where the

4 fire came from the Serb side, because basically, basically in the area of

5 the observation posts of our battalion the Serbs used private houses.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vorobev. Can you tell us if you remember when,

7 when you told us about the incident when a shell hit the place where your

8 battalion was quartered, could you place it in time?

9 A. It was in May. I do not remember the exact date. In May 1994.

10 Q. When you spoke about the actions from the positions of the Army of

11 Republika Srpska, can you tell us whether in your battalion's area of

12 responsibility you were -- did you know the military formations in the

13 brigade which was in that area, since you told us that you had spoken with

14 the brigade commander? Do you know how many battalions were there in that

15 brigade?

16 A. In the battalion's area of responsibility, there were three

17 battalions of the brigade.

18 Q. Did you personally know where the command posts of the brigade and

19 the battalions, in your battalion's area of responsibility?

20 A. I knew where the headquarters of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade was,

21 where the headquarters of the adversary Bosniak Brigade was and I also

22 knew where the headquarters of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo

23 Brigade was. Because it was in the immediate vicinity of the headquarters

24 of our battalion. The locations of the battalions of the Muslim brigade

25 was not known to me, not precisely, that is.

Page 17399

1 Q. Mr. Vorobev, can you tell us, since you said you knew the

2 locations of the brigade and you told us the 1st Battalion too, did you --

3 can you tell us what kind of buildings were they accommodated in, the

4 battalions and the brigade?

5 A. They were in buildings, in free buildings which were in the

6 territory of their area, the territory of the defence area.

7 Q. So if I understand you, you tell us that they were in

8 buildings -- what kind of buildings?

9 A. Just ordinary, two- three-storeyed houses.

10 Q. Mr. Vorobev, can you tell us, during your time of duty in the area

11 of the city of Sarajevo, did you and how often did you visit the

12 separation lines? First, did you visit the lines which separated the

13 warring parties?

14 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

15 Q. Did you visit -- I will first ask you about the front line of the

16 Army of Republika Srpska in the area of responsibility of your battalion.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How often?

19 A. Personally, once a week. Apart from me, the area of

20 responsibility of the battalion, or rather, the positions at the posts,

21 the posts were checked also by the chief of staff, my deputy, and

22 commanders of companies, so that we checked the situation at our

23 observation post daily to establish the deployment and the positions of

24 the troops of the two warring parties.

25 Q. Mr. Vorobev, on such occasions when you visited the front lines

Page 17400

1 and when your sources visited them, did you get some information -- did

2 you personally see the positions of snipers or sniper nests, if I may call

3 them that, in the area of responsibility of your battalion?

4 A. On which side?

5 Q. I'm asking you from the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you have any information whether there were any snipers in the

8 Army of Republika Srpska units?

9 A. As a military man, I assume that there are snipers in every unit,

10 one in a platoon, but in a battalion there would be 27, that is, according

11 to regulations. But depending on the complexity -- on the strength of the

12 battalion, but there could also be a special sniper unit. And I assume

13 that such units existed on both sides as part of the staff.

14 Q. Did you personally see whether on either side --

15 A. No.

16 Q. Mr. Vorobev, when you spoke about reports that you received from

17 your platoon commanders or from your operations officers, did you - and

18 you said that you had reports about the violations of the cease-fire, of

19 the agreement - did you ever receive a report that fire had been opened on

20 trams?

21 A. No.

22 Q. When you say "no," does that mean that during your tour of duty

23 there you never received a report of fire being opened on trams?

24 A. I didn't.

25 Q. Was there any talk at meetings at General Soubirou's when

Page 17401

1 commanders of other battalions were present? Did you hear of any reports

2 during that period of time when you went to those meetings that there had

3 been fire opened on trams?

4 A. No.

5 Q. During your stay in the territory of the city of Sarajevo, can you

6 tell us if you ever saw soldiers of Republika Srpska?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Can you tell us what kind of clothes did they wear? Did they have

9 uniforms or what kind of clothes did they wear?

10 A. They had uniforms, but not always, depending, obviously, on

11 supplies. Some of them wore civilian clothes. But they had weapons.

12 Q. Were you in a position to see soldiers of the BH army?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us what they wore?

15 A. Almost identically. That is, you could find people in civilian

16 clothes under arms and also men in uniform.

17 Q. Did you personally move around the part of the city controlled by

18 the BH army?

19 A. Rather often, pretty often, two, three times a week.

20 Q. When you went to that part of the city, can you tell us how long

21 would you stay there, or would you visit some institutions there?

22 A. I went to the headquarters of the Sarajevo sector, where I

23 submitted -- where I reported to General Soubirou. It wasn't only on

24 Saturdays, but if necessary, when either he summoned me or I went to see

25 him, because I had some problems I had to tell him about. At times I met

Page 17402

1 Viktor Andrejev, Mr. Akashi's assistant, Michael Rose, and Michael Rose's

2 command. Several times I visited him. But basically I moved around all

3 the parts of the city of Sarajevo and solved -- and would come across some

4 personal problems or would stop somewhere, stop in a coffee bar to have a

5 cup of coffee or water or something. I also visited other battalions that

6 were stationed in Sarajevo: The French one, the Egyptian one, and the

7 Ukrainian Battalion quite often.

8 Q. Mr. Vorobev, now you told us that you went there frequently and

9 that you visited commanders of other battalions. Did you personally,

10 during such meetings with commanders of other battalions, hear or receive

11 any protests, meaning that from the positions of the Army of Republika

12 Srpska some specific buildings in the area of responsibility of their

13 battalion had been targeted?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did they tell you or perhaps submit protests to you concerning the

16 actions of snipers, if I may call them that, from the positions of the

17 Army of Republika Srpska?

18 A. No.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now the examination

20 will be taken over by my fellow counsel, by my co-counsel.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good morning. I'd like to go back to

25 what you told us a while ago, and that is your visits to the part of the

Page 17403

1 city which at the time was controlled by the BH forces. You told us that

2 you would stop in a coffee bar or somewhere to have a glass of water, a

3 cup of coffee. And my question is as follows: What was the situation not

4 of a particular coffee bar, but coffee bars around the place, did

5 they -- were they open? Did people patronise them? Were there garden

6 restaurants in summer and so on and so forth? Could you describe to us

7 the coffee bars and other catering establishments in that part of the city

8 of Sarajevo.

9 A. I do not know how many coffee bars were in Sarajevo earlier, but

10 in that part of Sarajevo that you are talking about, but at the time when

11 I was there coffee bars and such catering establishments were from the

12 headquarters of the sector to the east part of Sarajevo to Bascarsija,

13 that is the older part of the city. There were quite a few establishments

14 and there were young people there, young and women having coffee, water,

15 smoking, talking. There would also be UNPROFOR members from other

16 battalion, Frenchmen mostly, mostly Frenchmen. Since there were two of

17 them, obviously they were more numerous.

18 Q. Thank you, witness. Now I'd like to go to the period of

19 spring/summer, and I'd like to know whether these coffee bars also had

20 their gardens or their terraces; yes or no?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. These terraces, would there be people there? I mean, patrons.

23 Would people be sitting there?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, amongst those patrons, I presume there were

Page 17404

1 also distinguished members of the French Battalions and other people, but

2 were there also Sarajevo civilians there?

3 A. Yes, of course, and they were more numerous, of course.

4 Q. And those civilians, those civilians who were numerous, what age

5 group would they belong to? Were they young people, less young, elderly,

6 or what?

7 A. They were young people, but I also came across military of the

8 Bosniak army who were on leave and who were taking a break there. But for

9 the most part it was young people.

10 Q. Thank you. Could one hear music there also in those -- on those

11 terraces in those gardens?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you also patronise such terraces?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you have any particular protective measures so as

16 to -- security measures to protect you when you went to those places?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you, witness. Do you have the impression that people who

19 were around you were -- and who were patrons of those particular coffee

20 bars, did you have the impression that they lived in fear?

21 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Calls for speculation.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond, Mr. President?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please ask the witness about facts rather

24 than as to impressions on how other people felt.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. I will rephrase my

Page 17405

1 question.

2 Q. Witness, those persons who were sitting around you, did they show

3 any signs of being afraid; yes or no?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. And those persons around you, did they show any signs

6 of being happy for being able to attend a social function such as having a

7 drink or sitting in a coffee bar or something else?

8 A. Well, I think it's a personal matter. I cannot be a judge of

9 that.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. Witness, my last question concerning this

11 aspect of social life in Sarajevo: Did you see with your own eyes at that

12 time - and I am still talking about the spring of 1994 - did you see very

13 many such gardens and terraces in Sarajevo, relatively many?

14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

16 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. With respect to the time

17 frame, I don't believe the witness was specifically asked the time frame

18 in which this line of questioning took place.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have already

20 indicated the time, that is, the spring of 1994. And we know how long the

21 witness was there. And besides, in winter such terraces are not really

22 places to go to.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Summer 1994.

24 But that was already a few lines before, but -- I'll just find it for you.

25 Mr. Mundis, page 36, line 20/21: "Thank you, witness. I'd like

Page 17406

1 to go to the period of spring/summer." And I took it that was the time

2 and the year the witness testified he was in -- he was in Sarajevo, and

3 that was from the 18th of February, 1994 until the 5th of November. Yes.

4 It would have saved time if you would have not interrupted at this moment.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Witness, I'll go back to my question. During the period in

8 question, these garden terraces in Sarajevo, what would you say about

9 them? Did you see many such terraces with people sitting in them and

10 amusing themselves?

11 A. I did see that, yes. People were sitting there and enjoying

12 themselves, and these terraces were quite well visited. However, there

13 were certain places in Sarajevo where I didn't go, so I can't tell you

14 whether there were terraces and cafes there. I believe so, yes, because

15 those areas were even further away from the front line, from the

16 opposing -- warring sides, and based on that I assumed that there were

17 even a greater number of cafes and terraces there too. Had they have been

18 closer to the deployment zones of warring sides, then there wouldn't be as

19 many there. But since this was more to the north, then they were in

20 greater number there.

21 Q. Thank you, witness. With regard to the civilians in the town and

22 in the part which was under the control of the BH forces, were you under

23 the impression - and I am now referring to the entire period that you

24 spent in Sarajevo - were you under the impression that when these

25 civilians moved around on foot -- did they show signs of being afraid of

Page 17407












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 17407 to 17413.













Page 17414

1 being targeted? Did they show this in one way or another?

2 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Calls for speculation.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to

4 respond to that. I think that it's possible to know whether people are

5 displaying fear on the basis of their behaviour or if they're not

6 displaying fear on the basis of another form of behaviour. It's not a

7 matter of speculation. This is something that the witness could have seen

8 with his own eyes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you started asking the witness,

10 "Were you under the impression that these were civilians --" it was about

11 an impression. And then you changed to a language, at least in the

12 translation, of did they show signs of being afraid of being targeted,

13 which was a more factual question.

14 Could you tell us, Mr. Vorobev, whether at the period of time

15 indicated by Mr. Piletta-Zanin people moving around, did they show any

16 signs of fear?

17 A. I assume that signs of fear are when people are taking cover and

18 moving from one cover to the other, when they're trying to get a shelter

19 from the fire. These people were walking around freely and enjoying

20 themselves freely.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Were there any covers you could move from one to

22 another cover? Were there any covers left? Because we heard testimony

23 that certainly in earlier stages there were -- there were covers.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is a military term

25 that I used, "taking cover." These people were moving freely. Had they

Page 17415

1 been afraid of anything, they would have walked by the walls of buildings

2 trying to protect themselves. Do you understand what I mean?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you more specifically. We heard

4 testimony of containers being put on crossroads where civilians would pass

5 one side of the containers, presumably because they feared to be targeted

6 if they would choose the other side of the containers. Did -- first of

7 all, did the containers still appear on crossroads?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the most open places, yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would civilians choose both sides of the

10 containers to cross these roads as easily, or would they usually take one

11 side of the containers to pass that crossroad?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, these containers were

13 placed there earlier. I assume that that was done at the time when the

14 fire was most intense. Naturally, a person trying to preserve his or her

15 own life would walk on the side which he or she deemed to be safer.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that was still the same when you were

17 there?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand this exactly. I

19 did see containers, but they were not very numerous.

20 JUDGE ORIE: But where you saw containers, would civilians cross

21 the road indistinctively on the left or on the right-hand side of the

22 container, or would they all choose, or would most of them choose the same

23 side of the containers?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They would usually choose the usual

25 side.

Page 17416

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One side at least.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Since we've been talking about these containers, witness, do you

6 know if in the area that we call Grbavica, which you're certainly familiar

7 with, do you know whether there were such barricades which had been formed

8 out of containers and other objects of -- or even of screens; yes or no?

9 A. No.

10 Q. You don't know or you didn't see such things?

11 A. I didn't see that.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, I would now like to examine certain other

13 aspects that have more to do with what we call military art. Earlier on

14 you spoke about the fact that the so-called BH army used buildings which

15 were free. My question is as follows: Do you know whether in the part of

16 Sarajevo that was under the control of the Presidency, the

17 premises -- school premises were what you call free, or unoccupied

18 premises; yes or no?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you know whether brigades that were located in the part of the

21 town with many men -- and if they would, which buildings would they be

22 based in?

23 A. As a military man, I assume that they could use vacant barracks,

24 school buildings, and other quite large buildings that were sufficient in

25 order for the troops to be quartered there. I assume that my colleagues

Page 17417

1 from the Ukrainian and French Battalion would know better about this,

2 because they were quartered in that area.

3 Q. If we have a civilian building, witness, a school or some other

4 building, a restaurant even, which is located in the town, and there is an

5 ongoing operation there, a military operation is being prepared there,

6 according to the military strategy you are familiar with, is it legitimate

7 or not to target this building, such a building; yes or no?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. It's a leading question.

9 It's a hypothetical question. It calls for speculation.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think that this is a

13 leading question, because I have asked the witness to answer by saying yes

14 or no. It's not hypothetical because -- it's not speculative, because the

15 witness spoke about his military experience. And a minute ago the witness

16 said --

17 JUDGE ORIE: One of the most well-known features of a leading

18 question is that it can be answered by yes or no. So would you please

19 rephrase your question.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you very

21 much.

22 Q. Witness, if we have a military building -- I'll rephrase that

23 question. I think I remember that the question was put to a different

24 witness. If you have a building which was on the ground floor, the first

25 floor of the building, if you have such a building in the city and you

Page 17418

1 have to attack this HQ, this command post, how would you do this if the

2 building is in the city?

3 A. I would use the most accurate weapon in order to destroy the enemy

4 who is located in that building.

5 Q. Very well. If you don't have direct access or direct view of this

6 target, what kind of weapon would you use?

7 A. Artillery and tanks.

8 Q. Isn't it true to say that a tank is a weapon and means which is

9 used for direct fire?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. If it isn't possible to open direct fire because it's

12 physically impossible to do this, what kind of a weapon would you use in

13 such a case?

14 A. Artillery.

15 Q. What kind of artillery?

16 A. Howitzers and mortars.

17 Q. Very well. Anything else?

18 A. If I had rocket launchers, I would use them too.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. And if the target is close to the origin

20 of fire, in such a case what kind of a weapon would you use?

21 A. Grenade launcher, and I would aim at the windows of the building.

22 Q. Thank you. Witness, since you've mentioned a grenade launcher, do

23 you know whether this weapon, a mortar, is such that there can be a margin

24 of error?

25 MR. MUNDIS: Objection.

Page 17419

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, margins of error do always

2 exist, whatever you deal with. So would you please try to find the

3 information that might assist us.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase that question.

5 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter in the courtroom needs to be

6 changed again, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I do understand that

8 the -- there will be a change of interpreters. I've understood that

9 before you put your next question to the witness.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Yes, witness, what can you tell us, if you know anything about

13 this, with regard to the age of the ammunition used by both sides in

14 Sarajevo?

15 MR. MUNDIS: Objection. Lack of proper foundation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please first find out the basis of

17 the knowledge on which your question relies.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 Q. Witness, did you receive or did you have any information during

20 your stay in Sarajevo about the type of weapons used by the forces that

21 were present there and about their ammunition and the quality of that

22 ammunition?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. If you know anything about this, can you tell us what

25 the age of the ammunition used was as a general rule.

Page 17420

1 A. Both sides used the weapons of the former Yugoslav army, and

2 naturally in the course of a war any weapon can have certain malfunctions

3 that cannot be completely removed. I took your question to mean that any

4 weapon, even the one that functions properly but is used by an incompetent

5 soldier, can result in an inaccurate fire. That depends on a person

6 using -- operating the weapon. So the main factor here is the human one.

7 If a serviceman is competent and well prepared, knows the weapon

8 he's using, knowing its deficiencies, then in order to use it as

9 accurately as possible he will attempt to use precautions and introduce

10 certain other measures. If the serviceman is unprepared, then this can

11 lead to errors and quite serious ones too.

12 Q. Thank you, witness. I would now like you to tell us whether

13 during your stay in Sarajevo you had the opportunity of seeing craters

14 which had been made by such mortar shells. And I am particularly

15 interested in such craters in an asphalt surface or concrete surface.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Did you see many such examples?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you ever see such mortar shells in

20 Sarajevo where the bottom of the crater was such that the asphalt or

21 concrete had been totally pierced?

22 A. Can you please repeat the question.

23 Q. I'll repeat that question. We're discussing craters caused by

24 mortar shells, and I'm talking about Sarajevo. During your stay in

25 Sarajevo, did you ever see -- were you ever able to see craters that were

Page 17421

1 such that the asphalt or concrete surface had been totally pierced and it

2 went underground; yes or no?

3 A. As a military man with 25 years of experience in serving in the

4 army and having participated in many conflicts can say that a mortar shell

5 can never pierce the asphalt surface. In a hard surface, a mortar shell

6 leaves a very small crater. It explodes upon touching the soil. And as

7 far as the asphalt surface is concerned, there can only be a small

8 fragment in the area where the shell landed and in the direction in which

9 the fragments were dispersed, and that's all.

10 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, do you know what a stabiliser is?

11 This is a technical term that we use --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. My question comes out of your preceding answer. But to make sure

14 that things are clear: This stabiliser, when a shell explodes in a

15 hard -- on a hard surface, asphalt or concrete, on the basis of your

16 experience of 25 years, where will it finish its trajectory? Where will

17 it -- where will the tail fin of the shell end up at the end of its

18 trajectory?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

20 Q. First of all, witness, could you repeat your answer.

21 A. After the explosion of the shell, the upper part of it explodes

22 and the stabiliser normally flies to one side. I can't tell you exactly

23 which side.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Witness, I would now like to move on to

25 another subject. Could you tell us, when you travelled in the interior of

Page 17422

1 the city under the control of the BH army, did you have the occasion of

2 seeing historical or symbolic monument, buildings such as museums, mosque,

3 or other buildings of such similar symbolic importance?

4 A. Yes, I have.

5 Q. Thank you. Could you mention a few museums that you can remember?

6 A. A museum in Bascarsija area, a mosque in the same area, in the

7 area of the old city.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, with regard to such buildings, museums,

9 and/or mosques, were you able to see whether such buildings had been

10 targeted? Were they systematically targeted and was damage inflicted on

11 them?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Thank you. Did you see any other mosques, apart from the one that

14 you mentioned just a minute ago?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What sort of condition were these mosques in? Could you describe

17 that for the Trial Chamber.

18 A. How do you want me to describe them?

19 Q. The extent of damage, if any, et cetera.

20 A. Some of them had traces of ricochet. However, I didn't see

21 serious traces of destruction. Those buildings were not pierced by shells

22 and similar. They were bullet-riddled.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, you mentioned ricochets. I would now like to

24 move on to a different series of questions and to talk about small arms.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, before doing so, could we have a

Page 17423

1 break now so that -- we had the first break a bit earlier. We'll have a

2 break for 20 minutes, so we'll restart at 25 minutes to 1.00.

3 And Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I've listened carefully to the efficiency.

4 I heard some repetitions. I noticed that you indicated approximately four

5 hours. If there would be a possibility to finish the examination-in-chief

6 this morning, that would be a little bit less than four hours,

7 approximately three hours and a half, but it's not -- I noticed that quite

8 some questions were put twice to the witness, whether he ever saw any

9 crater, it's a question that had been asked already by Ms. Pilipovic.

10 There are other questions. So if also by not -- I heard a lot of

11 repetition of the answers of the witness in the next question. That's

12 not -- usually not necessary. The witness will still remember and without

13 even this confirmation could answer the next question. So if that would

14 be possible, then we could keep pace as we try to do.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Gladly.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until twenty-five minutes to 1.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.12 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.37 p.m.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you may escort the witness into the

20 courtroom.

21 And meanwhile, I would ask the parties whether they have been

22 informed about a change of schedule next week, not this week, because on

23 the 15th - that's the day after tomorrow - we'll sit in the afternoon

24 instead of in the morning, but for next week there is an intention to

25 change the schedule as well, which would mean that on the 22nd of January,

Page 17424

1 the 23rd of January, and the 24th of January - that's Wednesday, Thursday,

2 and Friday - we would sit in the morning and not in the afternoon unless

3 one of the parties, or you, General Galic, would have any objections to

4 this change of schedule.

5 It seems that everyone is nodding no, and for the sake of the

6 transcript --

7 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no objection to that,

8 Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The same is true for the Defence?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Only partially, Mr. President,

11 to the extent that for Ms. Pilipovic and myself it's no problem, but next

12 week I'll have to be absent for a day or two. That is the only problem.


14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Exactly. No problem.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So then it will be confirmed, and also it will be

16 confirmed to the Registry that we'll sit on the 22nd, 23rd, and 24th in

17 the morning and not in the afternoon.

18 Then Mr. Piletta-Zanin, please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 Q. Witness, we were talking before the break and we were talking

21 about shells. But now I'd like to go back to something else. I'd like to

22 move on to something else in order to clarify the situation. You spoke

23 about an attack which came from the part of the city controlled by the BH

24 army, and from your military posts, that is, that the shell fell near your

25 headquarters and it was an 82-millimetre shell. In relation to this fact,

Page 17425

1 do you know whether the agreements concluded between the parties included

2 such weapons but these heavy weaponry, were there such heavy weapons under

3 one of those agreements placed under the UN control?

4 A. A mortar is not a heavy weapon. It is used even as mobile, that

5 is, its base can be carried separately and the mortar itself can be

6 carried separately, so that it can be mobile, it can be moved from one

7 place to the other.

8 Q. During your tour of duty in Sarajevo, did you ever hear the sound

9 of a heavy weapon fired from the Serb area? I'm talking about heavy

10 weapons.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now we shall move on to another question, and that is small arms.

13 If an incident happened, wounding people, was it up to your service to

14 establish, to start to conduct investigations of such incidents, of such

15 facts?

16 A. No, that was not part of my duties.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know if other UN officers were in charge of

18 that, organising investigations?

19 A. There were some units of the military police which were directly

20 engaged in investigating all the events which happened under the UN and

21 all that the UN could know about events taking place in the areas of

22 responsibility of various UN battalions.

23 Q. Thank you. And witness, do you know what could one really

24 technically discover during such investigations? What kind of

25 information, technical information, concrete information could be

Page 17426

1 gathered?

2 A. Could you please repeat the question.

3 Q. I shall be happy to do that. Do you know of your own knowledge

4 what could the investigations establish, generally speaking?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Witness, I'd now like us to concentrate on an incident which you

7 mentioned a while ago, and this is an incident which happened near OP5.

8 You mentioned a person who wanted to cross the line and who seemed to have

9 been wounded in the process. Do you know why or for what reason or by

10 what was -- what kind of weapon wounded that particular person?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'd like the witness now to

14 focus on the matter of civilians.

15 A. This man was wounded by a projectile from a small weapon from the

16 Muslim side, from a high-rise building. And he was running in the

17 direction of our post. A small weapon; I hope this was interpreted.

18 Q. Thank you. Since you've come back to this incident, do you know

19 if that person was armed as he was running across the line?

20 A. No. He was not -- he was not armed. He was not carrying any

21 arms, but he had a bullet-proof vest. I cannot say what kind of

22 projectile.

23 Q. But do you know if that man was interrogated?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, I'd like now to change the subject and to go

Page 17427

1 back to civilians whom you saw wearing civilian clothes but also under

2 arms. And I wish to precise certain things and not to repeat things. How

3 often -- that is, how often, with what frequency were you able to see with

4 your own eyes such people, such individuals, that is, people wearing

5 civilian clothes but under arms?

6 A. Rather often on both sides.

7 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you the following question: In the

8 military theory that you are familiar with, when somebody wears civilian

9 clothes but yet carries openly a weapon, what is that? What is that

10 person?

11 A. Guerilla warriors.

12 Q. What does that mean? A soldier, a military?

13 A. It can be a military who does not belong to any army unit.

14 Q. Now I'd like to leave that question aside but I'd like to ask you

15 if you ever had an opportunity to personally meet General Galic. And if

16 yes, how many times?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many times and what was the frequency of your meetings?

19 A. When he invited me or when I needed to resolve certain problems

20 that fell under his jurisdiction.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, were you ever present at a meeting at which

22 specific detailed protests were made to General -- with General Galic in

23 relation to some incident or whatever?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness, when we see a person who was a casualty of a

Page 17428

1 projectile, be it wounded or dead in an urban milieu -- wounded or

2 dead -- how can one establish whether it was the result of a sniper shot

3 and not something else such as, for instance, a ricochet or something

4 else?

5 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. There's no proper

6 foundation for this type of question.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The witness says that he has

10 25 years of military experience. Perhaps he knows whether there is a way

11 to draw this distinction, to tell one from the other. I suppose he has

12 personal experience and he certainly knows much more than we do and many

13 others.

14 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Just to find

15 out whether someone knows more than we would expect him to know might not

16 be the proper way of using our time efficiently. But the witness may

17 answer the question whether -- whether you know whether there's any way of

18 establishing whether someone in a urban surrounding being shot would be

19 the victim of a sniper or a stray bullet or a ricochet.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Three seconds to consult my

23 colleague, Mr. President.


25 [Defence counsel confer]

Page 17429

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] And we are now moving on to

2 the last subject, and this will be a general question.

3 Q. Witness, in relation to the buildings and structures generally

4 speaking, was there a difference? And if so, which one, concerning the

5 degree of destruction between the buildings along the confrontation lines

6 and other areas in the city or wherever?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you be more precise?

9 A. In the part of Sarajevo that was occupied by Muslim units, there

10 were more high-rise buildings that were destroyed in the early days of the

11 conflict. In the Serb part of Sarajevo were more private houses, which

12 some of them were also destroyed during the war.

13 Q. Witness, but my question had to do with a possible difference

14 between the front line, that is, the separation line itself, and areas

15 further away from that line in the city. Was there a difference between

16 them? Were you able to see that and so on and so forth?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That is, so what was the situation in areas that were further away

19 from the battlefield strictly speaking, from the front line?

20 A. Well, that area was better preserved. There were no destroyed

21 buildings. There were buildings scarred by ricochets or by bullets, by

22 rounds of fire.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness - and we have only two questions more, and

24 they are as follows and they have to do now with the accused. You knew

25 him as you told us. Did you ever hear General Galic talk to you about a

Page 17430

1 core military plan, the objective of which would be total eradication,

2 total elimination of Muslims. Did you ever hear General Galic speak to

3 you about such a plan at the level of his corps.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. You who knew him, you who knew General Galic,

6 how -- what would you say of him as a military man?

7 A. He was a well-trained military man, who was cognisant with the

8 situation in the area of operation of his corps and who skilfully

9 commanded his army. But this is my personal subjective view. Presumably,

10 there were his superiors who could assess his abilities, his skill, his

11 work better than I could do that.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: No further questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

15 Mr. Mundis, is it you or Ms. Mahindaratne who is going to

16 cross-examine the witness?

17 MR. MUNDIS: It's myself, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be examined by counsel for the

21 Prosecution.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

23 Q. Witness, let my pick up with where Defence counsel left off. You

24 just told us that in your opinion, "General Galic was a well-trained

25 military man who was conversant with the situation in the area of

Page 17431

1 operation in his corps."

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are sorry, but could the

3 witness's microphone be moved back away from the interpreter.

4 THE WITNESS: I will repeat that this is my subjective view.


6 Q. Witness, upon what facts or observations do you base that

7 conclusion?

8 A. When I met General Galic, when I was discussing with him problems

9 about the headquarters, about the stationing of my battalion when we

10 arrived and we had to establish, to identify the area of responsibility,

11 that is, when I went to brief him about all this, he obviously was well

12 cognisant with the situation, he also informed where his units were

13 deployed and what they were doing. He was perfectly conversant with the

14 map and, at times, he also issued some orders to his subordinates and they

15 sounded very literate, from my point of view. And that happened in my

16 presence.

17 Q. What do you mean, witness, when you say,"they sounded very

18 literate," do you mean the subordinates who were receiving those orders?

19 A. No, I mean that he was well informed about the situation in the

20 brigades and he was able to issue orders to his-- to commanders under him.

21 It was at the time when I was establishing the area of my battalion, he

22 was talking to them, he was giving them precise instructions.

23 Q. When he was giving these orders, was the subordinate to whom the

24 order was directed also present? Or was this over the telephone or radio?

25 How were these orders transmitted?

Page 17432

1 A. They were present.

2 Q. What was the reaction of the subordinate or subordinates, on

3 receiving these orders?

4 A. At times, they requested additional information as to what they

5 were being told to do, concerning cooperation with my battalion and rather

6 with me. So they would issued with some other assignments by General

7 Galic. I didn't delve into that but simply from my point of view, it was

8 done in a normal army language.

9 Q. Approximately what date was this when you had this first meeting

10 with General Galic?

11 A. The 20th of February.

12 Q. 1994?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. You told us that he informed you where his units were deployed and

15 what they were doing. Do you recall what he told you with respect to what

16 his units were doing?

17 A. Well, he informed me in general terms about what was being done,

18 that the area of responsibility of the -- that in the area of

19 responsibility of the battalion they were in the defence area, or rather,

20 in the area where the 1st Sarajevo Brigade was deployed, Commander Veljko

21 Stojanovic, and he told me that I had to cooperate directly with him when

22 establishing my posts, that is, the commander of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade

23 should be cooperative in helping me to deploy my observation posts and

24 that he should ensure a coordination with brigade units, that is, with

25 battalions of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade.

Page 17433

1 Q. Other than this meeting on 20 February 1994, approximately how

2 many other meetings did you have with General Galic?

3 A. Seven, eight, I think. Not more than that.

4 Q. Do you recall the approximate date or time period when the last

5 meeting that you had with General Galic was?

6 A. I think that it was in June or July perhaps, at the time when he

7 was about to leave for Banja Luka. I think he was retired then.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, could we have a short break for the

9 interpreters in the courtroom to change.

10 Q. On the seven or eight occasions that you met with General Galic

11 between February and June or July 1994, can you please inform the Trial

12 Chamber how those meetings were scheduled.

13 A. As a general rule, it was done in direct contact. Either I would

14 come to him and we would agree on that, or we would come -- that would be

15 through the commander of the 1st Brigade, Aca Petrovic, who was in the

16 vicinity of his headquarters. So that was normally done through the

17 commander of the battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade, who was in the

18 immediate vicinity of my headquarters.

19 Q. On these occasions when you met with General Galic, were the other

20 battalions under sector Sarajevo command also invited, or were these

21 simply meetings between yourself and General Galic?

22 A. In addition to that, there were military observers who were also

23 in the area of responsibility of the battalion. They were also present at

24 those meetings. Occasionally they would meet just the two of them. For

25 example, I would arrive, and in addition to General Galic, there would be

Page 17434

1 somebody else from his headquarters.

2 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the other people from his

3 headquarters that you met with?

4 A. Yes. Lugonja -- Cedo Lugonja [as interpreted]. I think that's

5 all. I think that's all.

6 Q. Do you know what position or post Cedo Lugonja held at the time

7 you met with him?

8 A. Cedo and Lugonja are two people.

9 Q. Okay. With respect to Cedo, what position did he hold at the time

10 you met with him?

11 A. I think that he was lieutenant colonel or colonel, head of

12 artillery.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 17435

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. You've just told us that this individual was to your recollection

5 head of artillery. Would that be head of artillery for the Sarajevo

6 Romanija Corps?

7 A. I think so.

8 Q. The individual Lugonja, do you recall what his position or

9 specific post was at the time that you met with him?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you recall the contents of your discussion with the head of

12 artillery for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?

13 A. I did not have discussions with him.

14 Q. Let me try to clarify. Did you have any meetings with

15 General Galic at which he was present?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Witness, do you recall on these seven or eight occasions that you

18 met with General Galic what the subject of conversation was when you met

19 with him?

20 A. Not all of it.

21 Q. Do you recall in general terms the issues that were discussed?

22 A. I remember the first meeting. In addition to having to coordinate

23 with the commander of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade concerning the deployment

24 of observation posts, so that they wouldn't be in the way of units of the

25 Sarajevo Brigade. In addition to that, I had a number of daily issues,

Page 17436

1 and the accommodation was not ready for the troops. We didn't have

2 mattresses. There were no shower facilities and so on. So I went to the

3 director of -- to the head of the corps asking him to help us as much as

4 he could, and he did, in terms of creating everything we needed for daily

5 needs. So these were the issues discussed at the first meeting.

6 Q. Do you recall any of the topics that were discussed at subsequent

7 meetings?

8 A. Yes, but not all of it.

9 Q. Can you perhaps indicate those issues of discussion that you do

10 recall.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you please give us some examples of these issues.

13 A. In June of 1994, additional equipment was delivered to the

14 battalion and it needed to be delivered in Zvornik area, which was the

15 point where the goods entered from Serbia. I had to coordinate the issue

16 of the transfer of this new equipment through positions and posts held by

17 his corps, and this needed to be delivered to the area where the battalion

18 was moved out. And there were several issues that needed to be resolved

19 concerning the transfer through the checkpoints, so that the units of the

20 corps all had information that the Russian Battalion would be passing

21 through with the new equipment to the area where the battalion was located

22 in Vrace.

23 Q. Once this issue was raised with General Galic, did you encounter

24 any difficulties in getting your equipment through these checkpoints?

25 A. No.

Page 17437

1 Q. On any of the occasions that General Galic met with you, did he

2 ever complain to you about protests involving shelling that he received

3 from any other UN personnel in Sarajevo?

4 A. No.

5 Q. On any of the occasions that General Galic met with you, did he

6 ever complain to you about protests involving sniping that he had received

7 from any other UN personnel in Sarajevo?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Witness, what was your rank at the time you were in Sarajevo, from

10 February 1994 onwards?

11 A. Colonel.

12 Q. Where did these meetings that you attended with General Galic take

13 place?

14 A. On the 20th of February, 1994 the meeting was held in the area of

15 deployment of the battalion at the police school. He listened to our

16 problems and promised to help. The following meetings were mostly held at

17 the headquarters of the corps in Lukavica.

18 Q. So on the first meeting he actually came to the police school to

19 meet with you; is that right?

20 A. Yes. It wasn't only him. General Soubirou came as well, as did

21 other officers of the UN sector headquarters. In addition to them, there

22 were also some leaders of the Serbian army that was deployed there.

23 Q. Do you recall who these leaders of the Serbian army that were

24 deployed there, do you recall the names of any of those individuals?

25 A. Yes.

Page 17438

1 Q. Can you please indicate the ones that you do recall.

2 A. Veljko Stojanovic, commander of the 1st Sarajevo Brigade;

3 Aca Petrovic, commander of one of the battalions within the 1st Sarajevo

4 Brigade, which was located immediately in the area of our battalion. His

5 command post was in the immediate vicinity of our battalion, within some

6 50 metres.

7 Q. Other than the meetings that took place at the police school in

8 Vrace and at the corps headquarters at Lukavica, did you ever meet with

9 General Galic at any other location?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Witness, can you tell us a little bit more about the military

12 training that you had and experience that you had. Did you have a

13 specialisation -- I know you told us you had parachute training. Did you

14 have a military specialisation in the Russian army?

15 A. I went through all levels of military training that exist within

16 the Russian army. I completed military school in St. Petersburg, then

17 high military school in Rjazin and airborne school. After having spent

18 two years in Afghanistan, I completed the military academy called Frunze,

19 which lasted for three years and is the highest institution of that

20 nature. And I became an officer of the army.

21 Q. Did you have command experience in the infantry?

22 A. During 25 years of my military service, I always was in command of

23 parachute units, starting with the platoon and ending with the regiment.

24 So one can say that I had experience with infantry, because parachute

25 units end up fighting as infantry. The only difference is that air

Page 17439

1 assault units have special tasks in addition to those had by infantry,

2 because they are supposed to enter the rear of the enemy and destabilise

3 the enemy troops there.

4 Q. Earlier you told us, witness, that one of the main factors in the

5 soldiering profession is a human one, which goes towards the level of

6 training that individual soldiers have.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do commanding officers have specific duties with respect to

9 training of their soldiers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do commanding officers have a responsibility and a duty to know

12 the level of training that their soldiers have?

13 A. Yes. Each at their own level.

14 Q. So that one would expect a company commander to have a more

15 thorough knowledge of the specific training and capabilities of his

16 individual soldiers?

17 A. Companies.

18 Q. You would expect a company commander to have a more thorough

19 knowledge of his individual soldiers' capabilities than a battalion

20 commander; is that right?

21 A. Absolutely.

22 Q. In your 25 years in the Russian army, did there ever come a

23 situation in which your superiors ordered your unit to undertake a

24 military operation that you did not personally think your soldiers were

25 capable of undertaking?

Page 17440

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President.


3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This only concerns the private

4 life of the witness and certainly not the proceedings.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be professional life, but the relevance

6 issue, Mr. Mundis, I don't know whether it could be discussed in the

7 presence of the witness, but is it -- are these questions of a rather

8 theoretical nature or ...?

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution position is that it

10 goes to demonstrating the duties and responsibilities of a commander.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But -- I'll allow you this one question and

12 then -- these are rather general issues as far as I understand them at

13 this very moment.

14 So would you please answer the question put to you, that was

15 that -- whether you ever were in a position where you thought your

16 subordinates could not -- that you thought your soldiers were not capable

17 of undertaking an order that was given to you by your superiors.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will not answer that question.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us the reasons why you would not

20 answer that question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my personal experience.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because this has to do with my

24 personal experience.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you're sitting here to testify about your

Page 17441

1 personal experience. I mean, nothing else is at stake then -- so I would

2 please invite you to answer the question. I beg your pardon?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in Yugoslavia.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My experience in Yugoslavia, but not

6 the experience gained elsewhere.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I have to contradict that. Your experience, you have

8 testified, for example, about your training, et cetera. So you're now

9 asked about your experience. I don't think that Mr. Mundis will ask you

10 any further details as to where and when - Mr. Mundis - so no one will ask

11 you -- the question is just whether you ever experienced that you thought

12 that your soldiers were not capable of undertaking an order you received.

13 Would you please answer the question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.


17 Q. In a situation like that, witness, does a commander have any

18 obligations with respect to the superiors?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, Mr. President. The

20 question is too vague, the one that has to do with obligation towards the

21 superiors.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I perhaps put the question in a different form to

23 you, Mr. Vorobev: What do you think a commander should do under such

24 circumstances?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything he can in order to

Page 17442

1 execute the task.

2 JUDGE ORIE: And has he any duty in respect of his superiors,

3 apart from trying to do what he thinks his soldiers are not capable to

4 do?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He has to show initiative, a

6 reasonable one, in order to execute the assignment.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But if a commander thinks that

8 is his soldiers are not capable of executing the orders given to the

9 commander, is there any duty for the commander to his superiors? Should

10 he inform them? Should he advise them? Should he -- what -- would there

11 be anything he should do apart from --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand what you are

13 saying, but naturally when he receives an assignment, he needs to seek all

14 the necessary explanation. If he's unable to carry it out, he must report

15 to the higher standing superior that he needs either additional forces or

16 something else if he is to carry out that order.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, please proceed.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Q. Now, witness, during your career in the Russian army, units that

20 you commanded had training on various types of mortar systems.

21 A. The troops -- the assault troops also include mortar artillery,

22 mortar units. But it is a matter of military organisation and the

23 structure of the staff.

24 Q. Did you have any professional training or experience dealing with

25 mortars?

Page 17443

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you have any professional training or experience in using

3 mortars with delayed fuses?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Witness, isn't it right that the purpose behind using a delayed

6 fuse is so that the mortar will not explode upon impact with the ground or

7 other surface?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What in your view, witness, is the purpose of using a delayed

10 fuse?

11 A. Additional charge, supplementary charges placed in the mine. And

12 the delayed fuse ensures that the -- that the shell will fly further in

13 order to preserve the gun powder charge and the shell has to fly further.

14 That is the purpose of the delayed fuse.

15 Q. Witness, what is the purpose of a fuse in a mortar?

16 A. Well, it is a professional matter for a gunner, for an artillery

17 man. My task is to tell the gunner the target, and he then decides what

18 else needs to be done. This is a question for experts.

19 Q. I take it from that answer, witness, that this discussion is

20 beyond your military expertise?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. Witness, on several occasions earlier this morning --

23 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one thing. Mr. Vorobev, you have been

24 asked about delayed fuse, fuses. Would your answer -- do you understand

25 to be delayed fuses the same as time fuses, or would your answers have

Page 17444

1 been different if you would have been asked about time fuses?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an exact answer.

3 I know that supplementary charge is placed on the shell before it is ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Q. Witness, on several occasions earlier today you talked about UN

8 military observers. Was the Russian Battalion at the time you commanded

9 that battalion part of the UN military observer chain of command?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you have at the time of your arrival any briefings in which it

12 was explained to you what the purpose of military observers in Sarajevo

13 were?

14 A. Generally speaking, at all meetings.

15 Q. Part of the duties and responsibilities of the military observers

16 was to lodge protests with the parties; isn't that right?

17 A. I wouldn't know. Perhaps.

18 Q. But as the battalion commander of the Russian Battalion, your

19 duties and responsibilities did not include lodging protests, did they?

20 A. Why not?

21 Q. On how many occasions did you lodge oral protests with either of

22 the parties?

23 A. At every meeting, at every briefing we would discuss problems that

24 had taken place, the problem of exchanges of fire between the warring

25 parties. I mean, we met with the brigade commanders once a week of the

Page 17445

1 two parties and we discussed those matters, that is, established the

2 intensity of fire, who started the first one, who responded. But it

3 wasn't a protest. Those were discussions, and we were trying to get the

4 warring parties to comply with the cease-fire agreements.

5 Q. Witness, what would you characterise as being a protest? If these

6 complaints or discussions weren't protests, what was a protest?

7 A. Well, a protest means concrete facts that have taken place and

8 concrete results following the investigation of a primary fact. That is,

9 one needs to indicate the number of shots, the number of casualties. That

10 is how I understand a protest. And in the daily reports to the sector

11 staff, we would establish this situation in the area of responsibility for

12 the sector commander, the places of the most intensive exchanges of fire

13 between the two sides, the duration of the exchange of fire, and the

14 positions of the troops -- of one's own troops in the areas of

15 responsibility?

16 Q. And was this information that you just described which was

17 contained in the daily reports to the sector staff also relayed to the

18 parties?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When you had meetings with either of the parties, what type of

21 information did you relay to them?

22 A. We focussed our attention on the fact that especially in the areas

23 of responsibility of some OPs there was quite intensive fire, and we were

24 trying to make the commanders of relevant brigades to ensure that they see

25 to the compliance with cease-fire agreement. We were drawing their

Page 17446

1 attention to the fact that agreements need to be observed and they should

2 stop firing at each other.

3 Q. This information was conveyed by yourself personally to each of

4 the sides that were operating in the vicinity of your area of

5 responsibility?

6 A. I already said that every week we would meet with the brigade

7 commander, or rather, commanders of the Serb and the adversary, either

8 myself or my deputy, and we would inform them about facts, that is, about

9 the violations of the cease-fire agreement, which had taken place during

10 the preceding week. That is, how many times, where and near which of the

11 observation posts had this gunfire taken place.

12 Q. Did these meetings that you had on a weekly basis have any

13 noticeable effect on the conduct of the hostilities in your area of

14 responsibility?

15 A. Generally speaking, yes.

16 Q. Can you elaborate for us what that effort was, what you noticed

17 changed as a result of these meetings?

18 A. Well, to begin with, the intensity of fire changed. That is, it

19 abated. And I say that in June and July and, I'd say, in August and on

20 the gunfire was -- the exchanges of fire grew less intensive. But that

21 was over a period of time in the area of Sarajevo. There were no more

22 casualties, at least to my knowledge.

23 Q. I have a couple of questions regarding the map before we break for

24 the day.

25 MR. MUNDIS: If the registrar could assist me with the number.

Page 17447

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would it take, because we have

2 one minute left, Mr. Mundis.

3 MR. MUNDIS: One minute.

4 JUDGE ORIE: One minute. Okay.


6 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

7 Q. Witness, with respect to the map D185, which is to your right on

8 the ELMO, do you recall approximately when the markings, other than the

9 markings that you made today -- the markings on that map, do you know when

10 they were made?

11 A. You mean the area of responsibility and the location of

12 observation posts?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Is that what you mean?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. It was done in February 1994.

17 Q. The indications by the various observation posts where it says,

18 for example, "OP1" or "OP3," can you tell me why the "OP" is made in Latin

19 letters rather than Cyrillic letters, which seems to be the case with

20 respect to all the other markings?

21 A. Because this acronym was adopted. All the markings, they were the

22 ones that were adopted by the UN forces and are the same throughout. So

23 observation post is called OP, and we used the same, and then the number.

24 Battalion, you can see it's marking its abbreviation.

25 Q. I understand that, but --

Page 17448

1 A. Patrol, you see the patrol route, APC route.

2 Q. My question wasn't so much why the "OP" but simply why the "O" and

3 the "P" were made in the Latin alphabet rather than the Cyrillic

4 alphabet --


6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Even if we're interested now

7 in the linguistic question, I really fail to see the relevance of this

8 question. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, I take it that you want to explore the

10 way the map was created or ...?

11 MR. MUNDIS: That could be part of it, Mr. President. It's quite

12 striking that all the markings are in Cyrillic with the exception of that

13 one.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So -- Mr. Vorobev, could you please answer the

15 question. The question was about why when marking on that map an

16 observation post Latin letters were used, whereas a lot of other marks are

17 made in Cyrillic. So we're not talking about whether you should use a "P"

18 or not a "P," but why you should write the "P" as the Latin "P" rather

19 than a Cyrillic "P."

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean that everything else is in

21 Russian? Well, it's simply that it was easier. It was easier for us to

22 do it this way. Everything else that concerns technical markings,

23 observation posts or battalion locations, it was all marked as laid down

24 by the rules of the UN forces. I don't think that the French would put

25 these particular markings in their language, the names of their own units

Page 17449

1 or various settlements, where perhaps if it says "russe," but in Russian I

2 don't see why that is a problem.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there's no problem. But there's the

4 difference, a use of letters, where part of the markings are made in

5 Cyrillic letters, where an observation post is marked, there the Latin

6 letters are used. May I ask you, "OP," who has marked that on the map?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The head -- the chief of my staff.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: I think that's all for today.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Questions have been put to the witness. Questions

11 have now been answered.

12 Mr. Vorobev, this concludes your testimony, but just for today.

13 We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom. May I

14 instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony given or still

15 to be given tomorrow. So you don't speak about it, not with anyone,

16 friends, parties, whoever. And we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning

17 at 9.00. Yes.

18 Then we'll adjourn until --

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But could the usher -- unless there's any

21 reason that the witness should stay present.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, no.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just a simple matter of

Page 17450

1 organisation. Since we shall obviously need the interpreters -- Russian

2 interpreters for tomorrow. But we should also like to know how long will

3 the Prosecution need to still cross-examine this witness tomorrow.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Could you --

6 MR. MUNDIS: I would not expect to need more than about one hour

7 in the morning.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would stay certainly within the limits of

10 the examination-in-chief.

11 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00, unless Mr. Mundis,

12 you have -- okay. We'll adjourn.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

15 the 14th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.