Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18121

1 Thursday, 23 January 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 And good morning to everyone both in and just outside of the

10 courtroom.

11 Is the Defence ready to continue the examination of the witness

12 Moroz?

13 Mr. Usher, could you then please escort the witness into the

14 courtroom.

15 I inform the parties that where the witness has expressed his

16 preference to testify in English, that there is one interpreter who will

17 not translate everything but is standby in the booth whenever there will

18 be any problem and that there is a second interpreter standby, but a bit

19 more distance whenever we would decide that we need full translation.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Moroz.

22 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Your examination will now continue, and I would like

24 to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've

25 given at the beginning of your testimony.

Page 18122

1 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.


3 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic: [Continued]

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Moroz. Yesterday towards the

5 end of our working hours we had your answer about how you as the chief of

6 the mission which went out to make repairs, you told us about how you

7 organised your work, and I believe you said that as the chief of that

8 section, you communicated with local authorities, both civilian and

9 military. Did I understand your answer well?

10 A. Not -- it's not quite so, because I was not chief of the section.

11 I was mission commander. So because in our section there were five

12 mission commanders. We each fulfilled orders of chief of section.

13 Q. I have to say that I did not say "sector," because I know that you

14 were with an engineering section and that your missions -- but I do not

15 know. I suppose it must be a mistake in the interpretation, since you are

16 following the transcript. But let us not waste time.

17 You communicated with local, civilian, and military commanders.

18 Tell us, on what basis did you communicate with civilian and military

19 commanders?

20 A. First, I would like to say that my contacts with military local

21 commanders was very limited, and I got permission to proceed with any

22 engineer mission only through liaison officers who contacted both warring

23 sides, and only after both sides gave their green light for engineer

24 mission, I got permission from my boss to go to any -- any of these point

25 where a mission should be done.

Page 18123

1 And as far as for civilian parties concerned, I connected with

2 them more closely because in the morning before going to the mission, I

3 went to the company which was authorised to provide any repair job. It

4 was a sewage company, water supply Sarajevo company, electricity company,

5 and so on. I contacted chief of the companies, agreed any of matters

6 which should be done to renovate any of the objects, took civilian

7 officers of the company, and then I went to the place of the repair and

8 did the job over there.

9 Q. Thank you. So, Mr. Moroz, your answer tells me that by and large

10 you cooperated principally with the civilian authorities when it came to

11 your missions.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You told us that after you would be given your assignment from the

14 representatives of companies, you told us you went out into the field.

15 Can you tell us how did you hire workers, and did you hire workers from

16 both sides? When I say "both sides," I mean the Serb and the Muslim side.

17 A. Frankly speaking, I wouldn't say "hire," because usually it was

18 the willingness of civilian authorities to provide -- to do renovation

19 just to ensure normal life for civilian people. That is why it was their

20 initiative mostly -- it was their initiative to ask UNPROFOR to organise

21 such a mission. That is why usually a chief of such companies knew what

22 should be done, would work a team to give us for the mission, and what

23 repair parts should be used during the mission. And before the mission,

24 they often ask UNPROFOR to provide the repair parts which they do not have

25 at the moment, which they didn't have at the moment.

Page 18124

1 Q. Mr. Moroz, can you tell us whether when going out for repair work,

2 whether did you form some mixed working teams. Was there any need for

3 that?

4 A. Yes, there were such cases. When mixed teams were formated -- and

5 usually it was done for two reasons. Sometimes one of the warring sides

6 provided repair parts, and they want -- they wanted to be sure that these

7 repair parts are really installed in the object. It was one of the

8 reasons.

9 The other was that the greater part of jobs were done just on the

10 front line. And during the periods where fire exchange was very

11 intensive, workers and their chiefs were afraid that a provocation could

12 be -- could take place. And just to avoid that, it was widely announced

13 that a mixed team will work on the spot. And local commanders informed

14 about that all soldiers just to avoid any sporadic -- sporadic fire. So

15 the second reason is for the sake of safety.

16 Q. Thank you. You have just told us that you performed the repairs,

17 if I understand you well, on the front line, where exchanges of fire were

18 frequent. Can you tell us how frequently did you go out to do these

19 repairs during your tour of duty? Can you tell us that? When I say

20 "frequently," I mean did you go out once a week, every day?

21 A. So I went for the mission nearly each day. And as far as I

22 understood your question, you asked if this mission were disrupted due to

23 the exchange of fire, how often they were disrupted. Am I right?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. I cannot say that these missions were often cancelled because of

Page 18125

1 fire exchange, but usually it was once in two weeks, something like that.

2 But of course during the year of my staying in Sarajevo, there were more

3 tense periods when mission cancellations [Realtime transcript read in

4 error "consolidations"] were more frequent and a quiet period. For

5 instance, summer 1994, when -- I don't remember when any mission was

6 cancelled.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, I heard the

8 witness say "mission cancellations," rather than "consolidations." Please

9 proceed.

10 THE WITNESS: Cancellation. Cancellation.

11 So that is the answer.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. So if I gathered what you said right, once you started working at

14 a particular place, you would have to stop working because of exchanges of

15 fire.

16 A. Yes, yes. You got right, because the priority was the safety of

17 workers.

18 Q. When, as you say, fire was exchanged, could you personally

19 determine where the fire came from and who started that fire, say?

20 A. Well, a couple of times mission cancellation was due to the mortar

21 fire exchange, and we had ingoing and outgoing shells. But we were just

22 between the fires, between the fire because we were on the front line and

23 the targets on both sides were a little bit deeper in both territories.

24 And several times we were shot at definitely by gunfire, but frankly

25 speaking, I had such feeling that UNPROFOR mission wasn't a target. It

Page 18126

1 was just for the sake to cancel the mission, because all traces of bullets

2 were close to the team, to UNPROFOR soldiers, just -- so those people who

3 shoot, they only wanted to scare it and cancel the mission.

4 As far as the second part about who fired, it's very difficult to

5 say because the direction of the fire always was from the area either

6 neutral zone, so-called, or from the direction where both warring sides

7 can shoot. That is why I cannot tell you for sure either it were Serbian

8 soldiers or Muslim soldiers.

9 Q. Can you tell us - and you understand what sides we're talking

10 about - so on which side did you perform most repairs of electric supply

11 lines? Do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Or areas where you went more often.

14 A. Of course I can, because you see, companies -- different companies

15 were located on different territories. For instance, sewage company was

16 purely Muslim because it was inside the city, and electrical company was

17 purely -- consisted from purely Serbian workers because it was located on

18 the Serbian territory. But the -- it doesn't mean that -- for instance,

19 sometimes Muslim workers worked on their Serbian territory and vice versa.

20 But the greater repair job in electricity lines were done on Serbian

21 territory because pylons renovation -- I don't know why, but pylons were

22 mostly damaged on Serbian territory in different places and wire cut off

23 was very often -- so wire renovation was very often done in, it seems to

24 me, Vogosca, so near the Volkswagen plant. Near the Volkswagen plant

25 there was a substation, and near the substation very often wires were cut.

Page 18127

1 Q. When you tell us that the chief damage to pylons occurred on the

2 Serb side, were you able to establish what was the cause of the damage of

3 the pylons and whether it resulted in power cuts in some parts of the

4 city?

5 A. The main reason of the pylon renovation was mortar shell explosion

6 just near -- near the pylon. And that is why workers dismantled the

7 damaged one and then they gathered it, so renovated. And in fact, they

8 did a new one. It was a rather difficult job. And usually it took one

9 week or more. So of course the damage of these pylons caused electricity

10 power cut off the main city because all electricity lines to the city

11 were -- so all the lines came from the Serbian side.

12 Q. In your previous answer you told us also that you performed most

13 of the repairs in Vogosca, where also most damages occurred, where supply

14 lines were cut off. Did you know what was the effect of the damage of

15 those electric lines in Vogosca?

16 A. So the main effect was that a great part of the city was out of

17 electricity for the time of the repair.

18 Q. And did you know what caused the damage of these cables in Vogosca

19 which then had such an effect as you indicated, that is, power cuts?

20 A. So sometimes it was gunfire, and so the damage was not very big.

21 Just one of the wires was cut. And the other reason was mortar fire from

22 the Muslim side in the direction of Volkswagen plant, because as far as I

23 know -- so I'm sure of that because Muslim workers often told me that

24 there were rumours inside the city that on that plant an ammunition

25 workshop was organised. I've been to that plant during the mission, and I

Page 18128

1 hadn't seen any working activity on the plant, because it was seriously

2 damaged.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moroz, in the course of your missions, did you

4 also provide security around some reservoirs -- or rather, was there water

5 supply cut off and did you do something with respect to that?

6 A. Yes, I did. So I had a number of missions in the area -- it seems

7 to be Ilidza. So there were -- not far from the river there were special

8 wells, special fields where pumping motors pushed water to the reservoir

9 which was on the highest hill of Sarajevo, and from that reservoir, as far

10 as I remember, it was an area called Mojmilo -- from that reservoir water

11 came to the city.

12 Q. Mr. Moroz, during your stay there, did you receive any information

13 concerning any possible problems in some parts of the city in terms of

14 supplying water to the civilian population? And if so, do you know how

15 and where was the civilian population able to obtain water in a situation

16 where the reservoirs were not operational and neither were water pumps?

17 A. So the system of water supply was organised the following way:

18 Water pumps were pumping water from the area of Ilidza to Mojmilo, and

19 then officers of my section followed the situation in that reservoir.

20 Each morning and each evening one of the officers went to the reservoir

21 and closed or opened special wells just to provide the city with water.

22 So in the evening we closed the reservoir just to make some stock -- water

23 stock in that reservoir during the night, and in the morning we opened it.

24 When pumping motors, engines were not operational just because of lack

25 of-- sometimes because of lack of repair parts, sometimes because of the

Page 18129

1 electricity -- there was not electricity to work, so there was no pumping

2 water and there was a lack of water in the city. But I cannot say that

3 the civilians had no water at all because the reservoir was very high and

4 pipes -- water pipelines were rather long. There was water inside tubes,

5 and in the low part of the city on the first -- on the ground floor very

6 nearly -- it was always some water in the city. The only difficulties for

7 civilians was that they had to take water in reservoir and then go

8 upstairs to their apartments, so of course it was difficult for many of

9 them. But nevertheless, to drink water -- drinking water was always

10 available inside the city.

11 Moreover, in the --

12 Q. Mr. Moroz.

13 A. Sorry.

14 Q. Mr. Moroz, I would like us to be a bit more brief in view of the

15 time available to us. But I will put this question to you: Did you know

16 that in certain parts of the city there were certain sites where civilians

17 waited to get water when the water supply was cut off, either because

18 there was no electricity and the pumps didn't operate? Did you know that

19 there was a site in town where civilians gathered to get water? Did you

20 know of these sites?

21 A. For the moment, I cannot specify those sites, but I saw myself

22 that there were places inside the city where water was more frequently

23 available. So usually it was very low places of the city.

24 Q. Based on your recollection, can you tell us what were those sites?

25 Do you remember them?

Page 18130

1 A. So I saw -- one of the sites was not far from PTT. I cannot

2 remember, unfortunately, this -- the name of the street. And a couple of

3 sites were in the old city, not far from the river.

4 Q. When you say a "a couple of other sites in the old city," could

5 you tell us, if you remember, what were those sites? Where were they

6 located in the old city? Do you remember a site where citizens could go

7 and get water?

8 A. Well, I remember -- I can show you in the city, but now I don't

9 remember the street names of that site. Moreover, I know that there was a

10 big reservoir, water reservoir on the beer plant. I know that for sure

11 because I visited beer plant just to make an agreement for Ukrainian

12 Battalion getting water from that reservoir. So there were great water

13 shortage in Ukrainian Battalion in Tito barracks, and it was an agreement

14 with a special truck, water truck, each day water was provided from beer

15 plant. But I do not know if civilians can take water from beer plant.

16 Q. Mr. Moroz, you just told us about the beer plant, the brewery --

17 A. Brewery, yes.

18 Q. -- Which is the place where you obtained water. During your stay

19 there, did you happen to hear that that area and the brewery had been

20 shelled?

21 A. Frankly speaking, when I've been to brewery I could not remember

22 that great damage was caused by that plant. I don't remember that. And I

23 did not hear that brewery was shelled.

24 Q. Can you tell us whether you had information, whether you heard

25 that in the vicinity of the brewery -- or within the brewery itself there

Page 18131

1 was a workshop that manufactured ammunition? And if you happened to hear

2 this, who did you hear it from?

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object, Mr. President. Leading question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic. I again have to stress that once

5 a leading question is put to a witness, repair is hardly possible. So

6 therefore, would you really refrain from it, because the Chamber might say

7 that the witness cannot answer the question and then perhaps valuable

8 information would not be available to the Chamber due to procedural

9 problem that should not have risen.

10 I'll ask the question to the witness. About activities in the

11 brewery, do you know anything about it? I think you said that -- do you

12 know anything about activities within the brewery? Was there any

13 activity?

14 THE WITNESS: I can say -- I have been there for two times, and I

15 haven't seen any activity on the brewery.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Next question: Did you hear from anyone else

17 that there had been any activity, brewing beer or whatever activity?

18 THE WITNESS: So Muslim workers from -- so from water supply

19 company told me that in the old city - I can't [Realtime transcript read

20 in error "can"] specify the place - were workshops for -- ammunition

21 workshops.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But not specifically the brewery.

23 THE WITNESS: No, not brewery.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 18132

1 Q. Mr. Moroz, in view of your previous answers to the questions put

2 by me, I took it that you had contacts both with the Muslim and the Serb

3 side in your work. Can you tell us, what was that cooperation like with

4 both sides?

5 A. Well, the cooperation was -- I think that very productive because

6 the greater part of the missions I participated in were successful, and we

7 managed to renovate various objects, either electricity lines or water

8 supply systems or -- or others. And so as far as for workers concerned,

9 all of them worked normally, and usually they did their best to renovate

10 the object. So I should say that it was normally because both parts

11 suffered without these civilian objects.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just for the sake of the transcript, page 11,

13 line 20, it reads: "I can specify the place," where I heard the witness

14 say "I cannot specify the place," which is also logic in the context.

15 Please proceed.

16 THE WITNESS: So only -- as far as I remember, there was only one

17 period -- it was winter 1994, January/February, was when the situation on

18 the front line was very tense and fire exchange was very frequent.

19 Several times Muslim workers under the different pretexts avoided going to

20 the front line, and they very often warned me not to visit this or that

21 city area just because of the attack preparation from the Muslim side.

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. When you spoke about the cooperation with the warring sides, can

24 you tell us whether you remember some individuals with whom you had

25 contact most frequently in that period of time while you were doing

Page 18133

1 repairs.

2 A. Well, I will try to remember the names, but I would like to warn

3 you that a lot of time has passed and I can misspell -- mispronounce some

4 of the names.

5 So I remember Velimir Radunovic or something like that. It was

6 workers' chief on electricity plant. So he was chief of team of Serbian

7 workers which were engaged in pylon renovation -- electricity pylon

8 renovation.

9 Then very often I contacted vice-president of the railway company.

10 We were engaged in tram line renovation inside the city. His name was

11 Muhamed, but I do not remember his family name.

12 Who else? Several times I visited gas company on Serbian side.

13 The name of the person I spoke with was -- it seems to me Krajisnik. At

14 least, I very well remember that he knew Russian perfectly. He studied in

15 the Soviet Union. So I do -- I do remember these guys, but I do not

16 remember the names.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moroz, you have told us that you were in charge of

18 tram lines and the gas company. I would like to ask you this: In that

19 period of time, in 1993 and up until October of 1994, do you know whether

20 trams operated during that period of time in Sarajevo?

21 A. Well, after my arrival in Sarajevo in October 1994, tram line

22 renovation was the greatest project of all engineer section by that

23 period. We started the job in December --

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt you. You said after your

25 arrival in October 1994.

Page 18134

1 THE WITNESS: Oh, in 1993.


3 THE WITNESS: 1993. Sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

5 THE WITNESS: So we started tram line renovation, and it

6 ended -- it was done in spring 1994. I do not remember exactly the month,

7 but it was rather warm already when the first tram was -- went through the

8 line.

9 Well, during the winter, periodically the tram line renovation was

10 stopped due to various reasons. But nevertheless, it was a long-lasting

11 project.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. During your tour of duty in Sarajevo, meaning up until October of

14 1994, did you personally have information to the effect that trams were

15 shot at and that result of that, trams were damaged? Did you personally

16 have such information? And if so, who did you receive it from?

17 A. Well, it was a special agreement from both warring sides not

18 to -- not to shoot at trams, and during a couple of weeks when the first

19 tramway was put into order, each tram wagon was accompanied by APC. So it

20 was moving just parallel to -- just along the tram line, just to shield

21 the wagon. But as far as I remember, no shooting took place during those

22 several -- couple weeks, and then it was taken a decision to stop

23 escorting trams, and I do not remember any cases when anybody was killed

24 or wounded, among passengers.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Moroz, you have also told us that you had contacts

Page 18135

1 with the representatives of the gas company. Was that related to the gas

2 supply to Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In what way? What information did you have concerning the gas

5 supply to the city, and where was the city supplied with gas from?

6 A. So I got an order from my chief to visit first gas company inside

7 the city, and I had conversation with the chief - I do not remember his

8 name - to clarify the reasons there were not gas in the city. So the

9 answer was that first Russia cut -- or diminished, reduced gas supply to

10 Bosnia; and the second, that gas pipelines in some places were damaged.

11 And due to that, gas pressure is very low in the city. After that I went

12 to the Serbian side and spoke to -- I mentioned this man Krajisnik. And

13 he confirmed that information, that gas supply is reduced to a great

14 extent. And there were damages on the line, but due to low pressure, it's

15 very difficult to find the places of the leak, gas leak on the lines. So

16 only two times I've been involved in such missions and -- so no other

17 missions I had.

18 Q. Mr. Moroz, during your tour of duty, did you have occasion when

19 you went out to do repairs to establish that as a result of a power outage

20 or water supply cut off was -- ensued as a result of a deliberate action?

21 A. Personally me, no. Usually it was the section chief who examined

22 personally pipelines, and very often he was -- he came from that mission

23 very in a bad mood because on Muslim side wells were cut off and -- so

24 in -- there was water in Mojmilo reservoir, but somewhere in the middle on

25 the way to the city wells were cut -- were closed, and that is why

Page 18136

1 civilians couldn't take water. For all of us it was very strange and

2 unexplainable.

3 Q. You've just answered my questions concerning the water supply.

4 Now, did you have any information as to in which sites certain reservoirs

5 were closed, reservoirs used to supply water to the population? Did you

6 have such information?

7 A. So that information I had from my boss. It was just somewhere in

8 the middle from Mojmilo to the -- from Mojmilo Hill to the old city,

9 somewhere there, but I don't know where exactly. There were a number of

10 wells, so -- dozens of wells. So in -- each time -- he told that each

11 time he went to check them, another well was closed.

12 Q. Mr. Moroz, during your stay there, did you personally receive any

13 protests concerning the lack of power due to the fact that either side

14 deliberately had cut it off? Did you ever receive such protests? And if

15 so, what were you able to establish pursuant to such protests?

16 A. So usually, as far as I remember, it was their -- our G2 section

17 was receiving all such kinds of protests. And after that they informed my

18 chief about such protests. But very often after the receiving of such

19 protests, we started contacting both sides to find the reason of the

20 electricity cutoff. And as far as I remember, nearly always the reason

21 was just damage on the line. And usually the next day or -- I went to the

22 pylons or somewhere else just to renovate it. I cannot say that it was a

23 deliberate cutoff somewhere on the substation or something like that,

24 because each time we found the damage.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Moroz. I understood that during your tour of duty

Page 18137

1 in that one year while you were there, you were in some parts of

2 town -- or you went to some parts of town, and I believe that you said

3 that you went to a part of town where the brewery was and that you took

4 part in repairing damaged tram lines. Am I to understand that you visited

5 both sides of the city -- on both sides of the city?

6 A. You're absolutely right.

7 Q. I've asked you whether you went to the part of town under the

8 control of the BH army, that is, under Muslim control. Did you go to that

9 part of town and did you walk around when you were not on duty, that is,

10 when you were not carrying out your duties? And what was your view of the

11 situation there? First of all, did you see armed men in that part of the

12 city?

13 A. So during the first half of my tour of duty, it was prohibited for

14 UN personnel to move around the city being out of duty. But each morning

15 I went out to the mission, and I moved around the city and outside the

16 city a lot. That is why I saw the situation in the city, so saw people in

17 the street, and I saw BH soldiers in the old city, as well as on Serbian

18 side, so Serbian soldiers I saw during the mission.

19 Q. Can you tell us, the soldiers that you saw on the Bosnian side, as

20 you say, and you saw them in the city, were they bearing arms and were you

21 able to observe whether they were wearing uniforms and what kind of

22 uniforms?

23 A. Well, of course I saw Muslim soldiers. They -- during the

24 missions, because a lot of missions were just inside the old city in the

25 narrow streets. Very often soldiers came to us, so just to speak

Page 18138

1 something about -- they were very proud about their arms. They showed

2 their guns, automatic guns, so -- and I should say that the situation

3 during my tour of duty changed. When I just arrived, so their uniform was

4 very -- and ammunition was very mixed. Sometimes it was very old;

5 sometimes it was semi-civilian -- I mean, about uniforms, semi-civilian,

6 semi-military. But when I was leaving, so soldiers were dressed in very

7 good uniform, something -- it was, I think, produced somewhere in Europe,

8 European type, camouflage. And their small arms also became -- so they

9 already had new small arms. It seems to me they were German light

10 gunfires -- automatic guns. Sorry.

11 Q. Mr. Moroz, when you answered the question in relation to the

12 soldiers and when you described them in that part of the city, during that

13 period of time during your stay, did you also see civilians in the town?

14 And if you did, on what locations did you see them? Did you speak to

15 them? Did you have an opportunity to speak to them?

16 A. Well, of course I saw a lot of civilians, and I saw them all

17 around the city. The only thing I should say, that in dangerous places

18 there were less civilians. The most dangerous place in the city was the

19 main street. We called it --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I don't

21 have the interpretation. So I don't know what the witness is saying.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what the problem is with the

23 interpretation. Is the -- can you now hear me in a language you

24 understand, Ms. Pilipovic, or still not?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I can hear you, yes. Yes, I can.

Page 18139

1 JUDGE ORIE: You were about to -- I don't know where it stopped,

2 but the witness -- I'll just read the transcript for you, Ms. Pilipovic.

3 The witness said, "Well, of course I saw a lot of civilians, and I saw

4 them all around the city. The only thing I should say, that in dangerous

5 places there were less civilians. The most dangerous place in the city

6 was the main street. We called it --" and there the transcript stopped.

7 Would you please --

8 THE WITNESS: Sniper Strasse, we called it. I know the street

9 very well because the greater part of tram line was on that street, and I

10 took a lot of missions on the street.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. When you told me that you saw civilians, were you able to observe

13 how the civilians were dressed?

14 A. Well, I cannot say it was something unusual. They were usually

15 dressed.

16 Q. Mr. Moroz, you now told us in your answer that the street where

17 you went often, where civilian movement was restricted because of sniper

18 activity. Can you tell us, what do you know about sniper activity in that

19 part of the city or, rather, in that street where you went?

20 A. It was not only sniper activity. It was also mortar -- mortar

21 shelling. Well, there were a lot of rumours about sniper activity, and

22 several times our missions also were shot at. But I think it were not

23 snipers because we were very open, and if any sniper wanted to kill

24 anybody from our mission, it would be done for sure. Well, after the

25 mission very often I was asked by commanders what side our mission was

Page 18140

1 shot at. I should say that it was very hard to determine it because in

2 the city -- so sound from the shot comes from -- from alternatively --

3 from different directions. And usually we were shot at from the neutral

4 zone or in the area which just was the front line. That is why I cannot

5 say for sure what side we were shot at.

6 Q. Mr. Moroz, you also spoke about firing on members of the UN. You

7 yourself, did you know anything about an event or an incident when fire

8 was opened on UN members?

9 A. Yes, sure. It was a rather frequent case. And our missions I

10 told you also were shot at.

11 Q. In the previous answer, you told us that this was not the case

12 just in that street, that it wasn't -- the movement wasn't just restricted

13 because of firing, but you also said that there was mortar shelling there.

14 Do you remember what you said?

15 A. Yeah, I do remember.

16 Q. You personally during your stay, did you know about firing from

17 mortars? And if you did, could you tell us in which situations.

18 A. Well, during my missions, we were not fired -- our missions

19 were -- as far as I remember, were not fired by mortars. Usually it was

20 just exchange -- fire exchanged between warring sides. And we were -- at

21 that moment we were somewhere in the middle. But the greater mortar

22 activity was during the night, and very often just close to PTT building

23 where I was staying during the night, Muslim side -- Muslim soldiers fired

24 from mortar and then it was an answer from Serbian side.

25 Nearly -- especially during winter 1994, nearly each other day the night

Page 18141

1 started from the mortar exchange. And the same story was with Tito

2 barracks, where Ukrainian Battalion was located. Officers complained to

3 me that it's hard to sleep because very often fire exchange took place.

4 Q. You now told us about two locations that you know about where --

5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just interrupt. The transcript is not quite

6 clear, and I'd like to ask the witness to repeat that part of his answer

7 so that there's no confusion. You told us -- and I'm reading -- "and very

8 often just close to the PTT building where I was staying during the night,

9 Muslim soldiers fired from --" and then --

10 THE WITNESS: From mortar.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it reads on the transcript, "mortar."

12 Whereas I understand you to say "motor." And I do understand vehicles

13 or --

14 THE WITNESS: No, from hand mortar. Mortar.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mortar. Yes. That's good.

16 Please proceed.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. So Mr. Moroz, you told us that you were in a position, you were in

19 a situation that you knew that there was firing from mortars by the Muslim

20 side on the PTT building where you were and that that was at night. Did

21 you know -- did you have an opportunity to know -- were you able to know

22 what type of mortars these were and how frequently did this occur? You

23 set the dates as being in January/February, in winter I think you said in

24 1994. During this period, how frequently did this occur that you know of?

25 A. Of course I know because I lived there, and so it was rather a

Page 18142

1 loud explosion, outgoing mortar fire, and that is why it's -- we could

2 hear it, everybody, very clearly because usually it was done at night. I

3 haven't seen it myself, but due to the sound, it was not a very big

4 mortar. Usually a couple of shots, and then silence. And in five, ten

5 minutes Serbs -- the Serbian side fired back. It was very often story,

6 especially during the winter. Near -- sometimes every night; sometimes

7 every other night. So something like that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Again, for the transcript, Ms. Pilipovic, may I ask,

9 perhaps assisted by Mr. Piletta-Zanin, may I ask your attention for page

10 21, line 18, where part of your question was that the answer of the

11 witness would have been that there was fire from mortars by the Muslim

12 side on the PTT building.

13 THE WITNESS: No, no, from. From.

14 JUDGE ORIE: From, yes. So that -- I don't know what your

15 question in the original language was, but as is was written here it does

16 not reflect the testimony of the witness. But I do understand that it's

17 clarified now.

18 THE WITNESS: I should probably specify. From the vicinity of PTT

19 building, because it was some close territory which nobody was admitted

20 in, but just near the line, this fence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your clarification.

22 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 Perhaps may I ask you: We are approximately ten minutes from the

24 break. As far as my account goes, there would be another 20 minutes

25 approximately left. Would that be the time you'd need or ...?

Page 18143

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. So Mr. Moroz, you also spoke about knowing that Muslims fired from

5 mortars at night on members of the Ukrainian Battalion. Can you tell us,

6 what kind of information did you have? Where was fire coming from, mortar

7 fire at night?

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I -- if I may, I wonder whether

9 it's a problem with the interpretation, but it goes "mortars at night on

10 members of the Ukrainian Battalion," but that's not what the witness said.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, if there's any doubt as to the

12 source, could you please tell us --

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a mistake again.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please reformulate your question -- or

15 if it is a mistake in translation, would you then please repeat your

16 question so that we --

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will repeat

18 my question.

19 Q. Mr. Moroz, you told us that you had information about mortar

20 activity by the Muslim side, that you received that information from

21 representatives of the Ukrainian Battalion. Is that true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who did you receive that from and what kind of information did you

24 receive regarding these kind of incidents?

25 A. So the greater part of military escorts I went on mission with

Page 18144

1 were from Ukrainian Battalion, and officers which went with me, so we had

2 conversations, we discussed the life inside Sarajevo, and they complained

3 about that regular activity.

4 Q. Did you have information while speaking to them or did you receive

5 such information where did BH army members fire from?

6 A. Again, just near the fence or near the buildings of Tito barracks,

7 just close to that, probably 50 metres, 20 metres. I cannot say. But

8 something like that.

9 Q. Mr. Moroz, can you tell us, during your stay during your tour of

10 duty in Sarajevo, did you have any knowledge whether during this period

11 there were some incidents during which according to the information - if

12 you've had them - civilians had died? Did you have such information?

13 A. Well, I knew that from time to time civilians died during fire

14 exchange, and once I was -- so I helped a man who was shot at near our

15 place of mission and with APC we delivered him to the hospital.

16 Q. Did you know or did you have that information whether, during the

17 period while you were there, there was an incident that occurred on which

18 occasion civilians were killed as a result of shelling? Did you have such

19 information?

20 A. Yes, I heard several times that civilians, sometimes children,

21 were killed during exchange of fire.

22 Q. You personally, do you remember an incident while you were in

23 Sarajevo and do you have information that during such an incident many

24 civilians were killed during your stay between October 1993 and October

25 1994?

Page 18145

1 A. So the greater incident was explosion at the marketplace.

2 Q. Can you tell us, you personally, what information did you have

3 about that explosion that happened on Markale market? And if you do have

4 any information, where did you -- who did you get it from and what

5 information was that?

6 A. Well, it will be a little bit long answer. First I have

7 had -- I've seen the results of the explosion on TV, so nearly 20 or 30

8 minutes after the explosion all that was live report on local TV. Well,

9 the next day I had mission not far from the marketplace, and I visited

10 that and just saw -- examined the place of the explosion. And for

11 me -- so on TV it was told that it was a mortar shell. After I've seen

12 what I saw, the marketplace, for me it was very strange that it was -- the

13 cause of the explosion was identified as mortar shell because it was

14 inside the city and buildings are rather high, and so to my mind

15 trajectory of the shell -- so that the place of the explosion couldn't be

16 at the place it was. After, it were a number of inspection teams

17 organised, UN inspection teams. And nearly one month later I had a

18 conversation with UNMO, a Russian officer. It seems to me his name was

19 Alexei Rumeltsov, it seems to me, but probably I am wrong -- who

20 participated in the expert inspection from UNMO side. And he told me it

21 was definitely proved that it could not be a mortar explosion shelled from

22 Serbian side. The reasons were -- it were different reasons, but all of

23 them excluded the possibility of mortar shell explosion shot from Serbian

24 side.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe it is time

Page 18146

1 for a break.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time would you still need -- how much

3 time would you still need, Ms. Pilipovic?

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will consult my

5 colleague. Perhaps another couple of questions. Perhaps 10, 15 minutes

6 at most.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes would be approximately the time you

8 indicated. May I then take it that you'll conclude in ten minutes.

9 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: When the witness is brought in, I remind the Defence

13 that they would still give an indication as to the time when the detailed

14 survey of subjects could be delivered.

15 Ms. Pilipovic, I asked you yesterday to tell me this as the first

16 thing in the morning. We're already halfway the morning.

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence is

18 ready. And I've agreed with my colleague who will only tell us when it

19 would be convenient for the Defence to present its position.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there an agreement between the parties on

21 the time?

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, not that I know,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And the Chamber has invited the Defence to indicate

25 when it thought that it could provide the information required, and then

Page 18147

1 we'll perhaps at a later stage hear from the Prosecution what their view

2 is on that. But perhaps we could first know time -- date and time.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we are

4 talking about soon or very soon --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That was mentioned yesterday.

7 The Defence wishes to say we discussed it yesterday with

8 Mrs. Pilipovic. We have taken note of the decision. We were told that

9 this was the decision of the Chamber, and we'd like to thank you.

10 The Defence's position between tonight and tomorrow, we shall

11 submit a submission under Article 63, and I believe that our submission

12 concerning your decision will reach you either tonight or tomorrow, and

13 that is the reason because -- that is the reason why we have not yet made

14 up our minds regarding this matter.

15 The Defence continues, Mr. President, to take good note of the

16 decision, but we believe it is an absolute right of all the accused before

17 this Chamber to remain silent until the end and that includes until the

18 hearing of the expert witnesses, and we therefore wish to appeal against

19 your decision. We believe that --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I did not ask you whether the

21 Defence wants to appeal against the decision. We'll wait and see whether

22 that happens. But you now spent 15 lines where I just asked you when you

23 would be able to provide the information of which you now tell me that you

24 do not want to provide that information.

25 Okay. Fine if you appeal against the decision. I'm just asking

Page 18148

1 you a very simple question; that is, you were invited yesterday to tell

2 the Chamber when you would provide the information that the Chamber

3 instructed the Defence to provide. And if you say, "I'm not going to tell

4 you," that's a clear answer. Then the Chamber will have to decide what to

5 do. But this is, as I perhaps told you before -- is not a debating club,

6 but this is a court where a decision has been given yesterday. And of

7 course you can ask for a certificate for appeal. And if you do not agree,

8 you can do whatever you want, but this is not a moment for debate. I'm

9 just asking you what would be the time where, as I indicated, I invited

10 the Defence to give its opinion on that before the Chamber will decide on

11 when the Defence has to do it.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, then I will answer very

13 clearly. I thought to have understood that we could not and we -- it is

14 not that we do not want to, we could not do it. And if you ask us why, I

15 can explain that. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're not giving the indication when you

17 will provide the Prosecution with the information the Chamber has decided

18 you would have to give to the Prosecution.

19 Your reference to Article 63, by the way, is relatively unclear to

20 me, because that's about questioning an accused before --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I must

22 have mentioned 72 and 73.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Then,

24 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 18149

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, you may proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: Your Honour, my co-counsel will use these last ten

3 minutes that we have.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness. I'd like to go back to

8 what you said a while ago, that is, on page 6, line 4 when you said that

9 very often the shelling happened and that it very frequently hit the area

10 where the presidency was inside the city itself. Do you remember that?

11 A. Well, I do not remember speaking about presidency.

12 Q. Yes, that is true. But it is the -- it is how we at times call

13 the Muslim forces. You did not mention them. But do you remember that

14 you said that these shellings were frequent from the -- originating from

15 the forces called the Muslim forces?

16 A. Yes. Yes. I spoke that there were cases that Muslim forces

17 did -- mortar shelled from the vicinities of PTT. It means

18 headquarters -- UNPROFOR headquarters Sarajevo, and Tito barracks where

19 Ukrainian Battalion was located.

20 Q. Very well. What I wanted you to tell us is the following: Were

21 you able to establish -- to determine the calibres from which those shots

22 were fired? Was it just one calibre weapon, different calibres, and which

23 ones?

24 A. I should say judging from the sound, it was not a big calibre.

25 Q. Can you indicate a specific calibre, in terms of millimetres?

Page 18150

1 A. No. No, no.

2 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to be more precise with regard to an

3 answer that you have already given concerning the shots which came from

4 the neighbourhood of the PTT. First, do you know whether around the PTT

5 building there was a perimeter? And in that case, what can you tell us

6 about it?

7 A. Yes. It was a fence around the PTT building, and it was guarded.

8 Nobody from outside except UN personnel allowed to go inside that area.

9 Q. Very well. Then I will ask you this: You said that you heard

10 shots near this building, near the PTT building. Was it a regular event

11 or not or what?

12 A. It was regular during a definite period. It was summer and early

13 spring 1994. Later I do not remember that it was very often.

14 Q. No. Witness, my question was as follows. It didn't have to do

15 with time. It had to do with the normal character -- that is -- or not,

16 that is acceptable or non-acceptable fire. Fire which came from places

17 near the PTT building, was it regular or irregular? That was my question.

18 A. So I would say that it was regular.

19 Q. Did you say regular or irregular?

20 A. Regular.

21 Q. In French I understood that you said "regular." Would it be

22 acceptable from the point of -- but it was not frequent. Regular in terms

23 of regulations of the right. That is, in other words, did the Muslim

24 forces have the right to fire from places in the neighbourhood of the PTT

25 building?

Page 18151

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object to this question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is a, I would say -- rather a

3 legal issue. And would you please first establish what would be the

4 specific basis of knowledge for this witness to answer that question.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I shall be happy to do that.

6 Q. Witness, did you -- were you told about the possibilities, not

7 only technical but also administrative and legal possibilities, that the

8 parties had to open fire from certain areas close to certain types of

9 buildings, such as, for instance, hospitals, official UN buildings, and so

10 on and so forth?

11 A. Frankly speaking, I do not know about any agreements about

12 specific areas which should be not shot at. The only exception of that

13 was airport area, which were a number of meetings, so just avoid --

14 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you. I think that this is not

15 exactly the information that you're seeking, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 Do you have any personal opinion as to whether militarily it is

17 acceptable to fire from a place which is -- was a short distance from the

18 PTT building?

19 THE WITNESS: Well, my opinion is the following: From the

20 military point of view, there was no use firing mortar shelling from that

21 area.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be -- I think that was the question.

23 Would there be any -- apart from whether it had any use or not, would

24 there be any prohibition to do so?

25 THE WITNESS: It seems to be no. So they have the right to shoot

Page 18152

1 from that area. So nobody forbid it. There was not any agreement --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

3 THE WITNESS: As far as I know, there was not any agreement with

4 UNPROFOR with Muslims not to shoot from that area.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But would you say that on the basis of the laws

6 of war there would be a prohibition to do so even without an agreement?

7 THE WITNESS: Always just in war and love.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear that answer.

9 So -- but did you have any opinion as to -- apart from any

10 agreement, whether it would be permissible to fire from a place close to

11 the PTT building by one of the warring factions, in the case the BiH?

12 THE WITNESS: Well, I only can judge about the goal of such

13 firing.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Not on the legitimacy.


16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Q. Very well. In that case, I will change the subject. Witness, you

19 told us that you frequently went into town and that you were able to see

20 civilians saying that they were dressed normally. But because Sarajevo

21 was not like any other place, my question is: When at that time you saw

22 civilians, did they -- did they wear pieces of clothing which were

23 disparate? Did they have types of clothing? Did you notice anything

24 particular?

25 A. It was nothing unusual which I can mention now. So they were

Page 18153

1 dressed normally.

2 Q. I'd like now with regard to the civilian life in Sarajevo, I'd

3 like to hear your comments about how people lived at that time in

4 Sarajevo. That, did they patronise -- did they go to restaurants? Did

5 they eat out? Did they visit public places, and so on and so forth? What

6 can you tell us about the public life, about the street life?

7 A. I got your question. So to my great surprise, during the

8 cease-fire periods, public life emerged nearly the next day. And so in a

9 couple of days during the cease-fire period dozens of cafe were opened, so

10 peoples started working inside the city, so -- and life went on rather

11 intensefully.

12 Q. These people that you were able to see - I mean the

13 civilians - did you have the impression that they were -- that their

14 behaviour could not be compared to the behaviour of such population

15 elsewhere in Europe?

16 A. Well, I can say that I had such feeling that during the cease-fire

17 people did their best to forget about the war situation they were in.

18 That is why they tried to behave normally, dress normally, like they did

19 before war.

20 Q. Thank you. My last question --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That answers my question to you. Yes.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Last question: Did you happen to see weapons in the city of, of

24 whatever nature? And if yes, what did you see and where?

25 A. Well, usually I had close contacts with civilians inside the old

Page 18154

1 city, because streets were narrow and it was a safe area to walk. As for

2 the weapons, I already told you that in the first period of my tour of

3 duty I saw that weapons was rather obsolete -- I mean on Muslim side

4 inside the city. Sometimes it were shotguns of Second World War period.

5 But at the time just before I left Sarajevo, I could say that at that

6 period soldiers were dressed in new uniforms and they had new small fire.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

9 Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- yes.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: But Mr. President, before I start, I would like

13 to place on record the fact that this witness testified about the Markale

14 market explosion, and contrary to the guidance given by the Bench, the

15 Defence has not mentioned the fact that the witness would be testifying

16 about this incident in the 65 ter summary.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as my recollection goes, there was no

18 specific question about Markale.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: So it came up during the -- one of the answers of the

21 witness rather than that any specific question has been put to him in this

22 respect. So that's on record then as well.

23 Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Cross-examined by Ms. Mahindaratne:

Page 18155

1 Q. Sir, you testified that you spoke with a Russian UNMO who provided

2 you some information about an investigation conducted into the shelling of

3 the Markale market.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you please give the full name of that Russian officer, and

6 could you please spell that name out.

7 A. Well, I told you that as far as I remember, because many years

8 have passed, and I can misspell the name, but it seems to me his name was

9 Alexei Rumeltsov. So he stayed in that area like UNMO for a couple of

10 months, and I think that in the records we should clarify the name,

11 because I told you that he was -- as he told me, he was a member of the

12 investigation team.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you to look at your screen, page 35 --


15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Line 8, comes that, as far as spelling is

16 concerned, closest to what you had in mind or --


18 JUDGE ORIE: If it could be different, would you please spell out

19 as far as you remember.

20 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm. Alexei is okay. R-u-m-y-a-n-t-s-e-v.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.


23 Q. Sir, do you know his rank?

24 A. As far as I remember, he was major.

25 Q. At the time he was conducting the investigation, was that his

Page 18156












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts. Pages 18156 to 18165.













Page 18166

1 rank?

2 A. I told you as far as I remember major. But captain could be as

3 well, but it seems to be major.

4 Q. Was he party to a particular investigation, perhaps a UN

5 investigation into the incident? Did he inform you of that fact?

6 A. As far as I know, UNMO team conducted investigation of their own.

7 It was not a part of UNPROFOR investigation team. It was separate.

8 Q. Did he tell you, sir, as to why -- at least did he inform you of

9 the reasons for his conclusion you testified that he had told you, that it

10 could not have been a mortar --

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. -- That exploded in the market? Did he tell you why he based

13 this conclusion?

14 A. First of all, I should say that during our informal conversation,

15 he told us that a report was sent to New York. So this conversation

16 was -- took place after the investigation was completed, officially

17 completed, and the report was sent out. So as far as I remember, he

18 mentioned that trajectory of the shell -- so the place of the explosion

19 couldn't be at the place -- at that place -- just a moment. I will

20 rephrase it.

21 So the mortar shell trajectory can be so calculated or figured

22 out. And if it's shelled from the Serbian side. And these normal

23 artillery calculations shows that the shell couldn't hit the place of the

24 explosion.

25 Is it understood, what I try to tell?

Page 18167

1 Q. Sir, could you repeat what you said. Did he tell you that the

2 mortar could not have come from the Serb side or --

3 A. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Judging from the possible trajectory is

4 the first reason. The second reason, that the direction of fragments left

5 after the explosion on asphalt showed it couldn't be from the Serbian

6 side. And the second -- the might -- a number of fragments of the

7 explosion was so huge that any -- and a number of victims was very big.

8 It couldn't be done by mortar shell, by mortar round.

9 Q. So what you're saying is he told you that it could not have been a

10 mortar shell or that the shell could not have originated from the Serb

11 side? Which of it?

12 A. Both. Both. It can be -- if it were a shell -- a mortar shell,

13 it couldn't come from Serbian side. But the character of the explosion

14 shows that the explosion was bigger than any mortar -- any mortar.

15 Q. Did he tell you what it would have been?

16 A. No. So his supposition was that a special explosion device was

17 brought into the marketplace.

18 Q. Sir, are you aware that a UN investigation was conducted into this

19 explosion?

20 A. It was approximately one month later after the explosion.

21 Q. Are you aware that a team of experts, including artillery and

22 mortar experts, comprised this -- the team of investigators who

23 investigated into the explosion?

24 A. Frankly speaking, I haven't read official papers. I only say you

25 what I heard from the person who participated in that. And I have no

Page 18168

1 reasons not to believe him.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, may I ask for a clarification.

3 When you were told this by this major or captain --


5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it was left open. It might have been a

6 major.

7 Did he tell you about his personal impression or did he tell you

8 about what the findings of the investigation had been as reported to the

9 UN? Because you said something about UN report to be sent to New York.


11 JUDGE ORIE: So was he telling you what the findings had been as

12 reported, or did he tell you that apart from what was in the report, that

13 his personal opinion was and then et cetera, et cetera?

14 THE WITNESS: Of course I didn't put questions -- my questions to

15 him in such a way --


17 THE WITNESS: -- You do now, because I never thought that I'll

18 testify here.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, then perhaps would you tell us what your

20 impression was, whether he relayed to you the content of the -- of

21 the -- the results of the investigation as reported or something different

22 from that.

23 THE WITNESS: I think that it was a combination, mixed up of the

24 results which were reported and his personal opinion.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And would these -- this personal opinion, then, be in

Page 18169

1 conformity with what was reported, or was it additionally and not in

2 conformity with the official report?

3 THE WITNESS: It was -- I should say it was his comments, his

4 personal comments which were not included. I think so. Especially when I

5 asked him "What do you think about what was the reason of the explosion?"

6 And he told me that some special device was brought in.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But on the two specific issues you just

8 mentioned, that is, the first one that the shell -- if it would have been

9 a mortar shell, that it could never have originated from the

10 Serbian -- from any Serbian position.


12 JUDGE ORIE: And the second, that the -- the injuries -- or the

13 results on the marketplace could never have caused by a mortar shell.

14 These specific two parts, did you have the impression that he then

15 reflected what was reported?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: So this was not a personal opinion --


19 JUDGE ORIE: -- Apart from -- but you got the impression that when

20 he told you these two conclusions, that that were the official conclusion

21 that is had been reported to New York.

22 THE WITNESS: I have a feeling that it was part of the official

23 report because being a military and judging from the investigation, it

24 would be two main questions that any expert would ask.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he did not show any disagreement in this

Page 18170

1 respect --


3 JUDGE ORIE: -- With what you got the impression was the official

4 finding of the report.

5 THE WITNESS: I think that it was -- it went along. So it was no

6 disagreement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this clarification.

8 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Sir, this person, are you aware that he's an expert or was a UN

11 expert in any form, either an artillery or mortar expert?

12 A. I do not know. It seems to be no. He was not an artillery by

13 profession.

14 Q. Going back to my question, sir: Are you aware that a team of

15 experts -- UN experts conducted an investigation into this explosion? Are

16 you aware of that? I'm not --

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. -- Asking you whether you read the documents, but are you aware?

19 A. Yes, I'm aware. I know because I've been to engineer sections and

20 I had a number of conversations related to that. And frankly speaking, it

21 was -- the explosion had so much impact that on many developments inside

22 and outside Sarajevo that attention of all UN personnel was drawn to the

23 explosion.

24 Q. Sir, did you know that there was a person by the name of

25 Rumyantsev. I'll spell that for you. R-u-m-y-a-n-t-s-e-v, the initial

Page 18171

1 being N., lieutenant colonel, a Russian, who was included in the team?

2 A. Well, first of all, not lieutenant colonel. Probably he is now

3 lieutenant colonel. I do not know. But I told you major.

4 Q. So you do agree this is one and the same person. The person who

5 spoke to you in fact was also on the team of experts who investigated into

6 the explosion.

7 A. At least he told me so.

8 Q. Sir, are you aware that after the investigation, a report was

9 compiled on the findings and forwarded to New York?

10 A. He told me so.

11 Q. Sir, are you also aware that it's reported in that report compiled

12 by the experts which also included the person you referred to, Lieutenant

13 Colonel, pardon my pronunciation, Rumyantsev, that the explosion was

14 caused by a conventional factory-produced 120-millimetre mortar bomb. The

15 mortar bomb detonated upon impact with the ground. Did you know, sir,

16 that there was a report to such effect?

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, didn't I hear the witness testify

19 that he has not seen any report or document in this respect? So to ask

20 him -- he testified about what he heard. Of course, if you want to use

21 your time on that. But isn't it clear that the witness did testify --

22 THE WITNESS: I know that a number of teams were working -- expert

23 teams were working -- investigating the explosion, separate teams. As far

24 as I remember, it was UNPROFOR team and UNMO team. I speak to you about

25 my conversation with UNMO officer, and probably you're now speaking about

Page 18172

1 another expert report. I do not know, but I know --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever see any document --


4 JUDGE ORIE: -- Or did you discuss the content of such documents,

5 apart from the conversation you just mentioned, with a person you

6 identified as Rumyantsev? Did you speak with anyone else about --


8 JUDGE ORIE: -- Reporting?


10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


12 Q. Sir, I put it to you that this person whom you referred to,

13 Lieutenant Colonel Rumyantsev, has signed and compiled a report together

14 with other experts who investigated into the explosion, a report which in

15 fact concludes that it was a mortar shell and in fact also which indicates

16 the trajectory and the direction from which the shell came.

17 A. Well, I do not know about his signature to the report, but the

18 only thing I told, that during our informal conversation he told me what I

19 already pronounced. That is all. I can nothing add to that.

20 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that your testimony that this very person

21 who has in fact signed an official document and reported on his findings,

22 which is quite contrary to what you stated here, is unacceptable.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Before -- what is unacceptable, Ms. Mahindaratne? Is

24 the --

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: His testimony.

Page 18173

1 JUDGE ORIE: His --

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The testimony of the witness, Mr. President.

3 May I rephrase? May I rephrase, Mr. President?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


6 Q. Sir, I suggest to you that your testimony that this very person

7 who signed a report which indicates findings that are quite contrary to

8 what you just stated here, that is, that this person told you that it

9 could not have been a mortar bomb and that it could not have originated

10 from Serbian territory, is unacceptable in that your testimony -- that

11 this same person who told you this fact is unacceptable.

12 A. Frankly speaking --

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object,

14 because the word "unacceptable" has a moral meaning, and I think to repeat

15 it twice would be even --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne puts it to you that she has

17 difficulties in believing that this person of which Ms. Mahindaratne says

18 that he signed the report with contrary conclusions would have told you as

19 the results of the investigation a totally different finding and asks you

20 to respond to that.

21 THE WITNESS: I do not know if he signed anything, first of all.


23 THE WITNESS: Because I have not seen any report, first.

24 Second, I see no reason why he should tell me the things contrary

25 to what -- to the report that his team was -- worked at. So again, I -- I

Page 18174

1 told you only about our conversation, and I cannot prove or disprove what

2 he told me. But I have -- I see no reason what -- why he should tell me

3 untruth facts.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or - and that might be part of the question as

5 well - whether you would tell any untrue facts. I take it that this

6 testimony includes that you're answering -- that you have answered those

7 questions on this conversation to the best of your recollection.

8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The subject has been sufficiently dealt with,

10 Ms. Mahindaratne. Would you please --

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, just for the record.


13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm referring to document P2261 and the English

14 translation P2261A, which is a report which has already been tendered by

15 the Prosecution in evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It's even already admitted into evidence, if I'm

17 not --

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Sir, you testified about sniper alley, and you stated that this

22 was a very dangerous area. Could you clarify as to why you used the word

23 "dangerous."

24 A. It was a rather open area just at the bottom of the valley, and it

25 was exposed to any gunfire from hills. From one side -- so and those

Page 18175

1 hills were places of both Muslim soldiers and Serbian soldiers.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] So that we can be as precise

5 as possible, I do not recall that the witness had specifically mentioned

6 what we know as being the street as called sniper alley.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, he used the German term for that.

8 He said "sniper strasse."

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Indeed. Indeed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: And you are -- from the north. Yes.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I take note. Thank you.


13 Q. Sir, is it your position then that being exposed to the hills,

14 your words, there was sniping from the hills towards the street?

15 A. As for me, I would be very cautious about saying "sniping." I

16 should say it was shooting, because sometimes it was gunfire; sometimes it

17 was rifle fire; sometimes it was mortar fire. That is why judging from

18 the name of the street -- new name of the street, "sniper strasse," we

19 cannot say that all shooting was by snipers. So like a military, I

20 understand that sniper is -- should be a very talented shooter. And you

21 cannot find a lot of snipers for activity. Usually it's one soldier from

22 100 or even more. That is why. Snipers cannot conduct wars.

23 Q. Very well, sir. Well, we'll use the word, then "firing."

24 A. "Shooting."

25 Q. Shooting from the hills.

Page 18176

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you identify the hills to which the sniper alley was exposed.

3 A. Well, this street goes just at the bottom of the valley, and so if

4 you go from PTT till -- towards the old city, the whole right side is the

5 hill which goes up. Probably if you show me the map, I can show you the

6 hills.

7 Q. Sir, the sniper alley, if I may use that term --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- Goes from east to west or west to east across the city of

10 Sarajevo.

11 A. Yeah.

12 Q. Now, you said sometimes there was sniping from neutral zones.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which direction did you mean when you used the word "neutral

15 zones"? Was it to the south?

16 A. Well, so very often --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object in the

19 sense that the witness was precise earlier that he wasn't speaking about

20 sniping as such but he was speaking about shooting, rifle shooting. So if

21 the sniping is mentioned, that's contrary to his evidence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Let me just

23 see whether I could get a shortcut.

24 You told us that what you called the "sniper strasse" was

25 exposed --

Page 18177

1 THE WITNESS: Local citizens called it not "sniper avenue" but

2 "sniper strasse."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Coming into the PTT building going into the

4 direction of the city, the old city, would that be east direction, going

5 to the east, which suggests that the PTT building is to the west of the

6 old city?

7 THE WITNESS: Just a moment. I would imagine.


9 THE WITNESS: Because, you know, in the city you never look what

10 direction is -- east and west you are going to. So if PTT is in the east,

11 so we are --

12 JUDGE ORIE: No. PTT is, as far as the Chamber is aware of up

13 till this moment, is to the west.

14 THE WITNESS: To the west.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to the west of the old city.

16 Let me ask it in a different way: You said that on this street

17 there would be exposure from a certain side, and you said, "Going from the

18 PTT into the city, it was from the right-hand side."

19 THE WITNESS: From the right, yeah.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Just to clarify this, is that the side -- direction

21 the river or the opposite direction?

22 THE WITNESS: So the direction of river.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That clarifies the issue, I think.

24 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.


Page 18178

1 Q. Sir, going back to my question: When you referred to the term

2 "neutral zone," were you referring to the area towards the river? Is that

3 the area you indicated?

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. That would be to the south; wouldn't that be the case?

6 A. Okay. Yeah.

7 Q. Sir, then is it your position that the shooting, if you prefer to

8 use the word, was from the confrontation line -- the direction of

9 confrontation line on the south?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Sir, the tram lines went through the sniper alley, isn't it?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. Therefore, would you agree with me if I say that the trams, too,

14 were exposed to this threat of shooting and firing? From this direction?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And have you observed or did you learn of such incidents where the

17 trams were shot at or were subject to shelling?

18 A. No. I already told you that after the tram line put into

19 operation, the first weeks all trams were accompanied by APCs. And then

20 because their cease-fire concerning trams were not violated and it was the

21 decision taken that tram should work on normal basis without any escorts.

22 And I heard no cases when trams were shot at. Probably they were, but I

23 heard no.

24 Q. Sir, when you say that trams were not shot at, you're referring to

25 the time period after this agreement you speak of with regard to tram

Page 18179

1 lines.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Prior to that, was it not the case that trams were shot at? That

4 is, why in fact an agreement had to be concluded, so that the trams would

5 not be in fact shot at?

6 A. So you see, the tram company was not operational at the moment of

7 my arrival to Sarajevo because impossible for tram to go because all

8 electricity lines were destroyed. And just on the eve of putting into

9 operation the line when everything was repaired and everything was ready

10 for normal tram line use, it was an agreement by both sides not to shoot.

11 And as far as I know, this agreement was fulfilled.

12 Q. Sir, what was the reason for an agreement? Why was it necessary

13 to conclude such an agreement?

14 A. Because it was war.

15 Q. And because the trams were shot at?

16 A. The trams were not shot at, because at the moment of operation no

17 trams on line. It was -- I can say that the street was shot at, but trams

18 were not shot at because the trams were absent.

19 Q. Sir, you said "an agreement was concluded between the parties

20 about not shooting at the trams." When was this?

21 A. It was spring 1994. I cannot specify the month, but it was the

22 spring, definitely. Probably April or -- April/May, something like that.

23 Q. Did -- did both parties -- did both parties agree to abide by this

24 agreement?

25 A. Oh, yes.

Page 18180

1 Q. And when I say "both parties," I'm referring to the Sarajevo

2 Romanija Corps on the side of the Serbian army and the presidency forces

3 on the side of the Bosnian government side.

4 A. Well, you see, I haven't seen this agreement, but I know it

5 was -- definitely was. And the practice was that cease-fire agreement

6 always was signed by both sides. It was the position of Serbian side.

7 They were afraid that Muslim side can provoke the shooting. And frankly

8 speaking, it were reasons to be afraid of that.

9 Q. Sir, this agreement, was it an agreement which UN, the

10 United Nations, was also party?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You said after tram lines were installed and trams were in

13 operation, during the first two weeks the trams were given an escort by

14 the UN. What was the reason for such an escort? What were you trying to

15 protect?

16 A. It was just to avoid any provocation, because any sporadic fire

17 could cause victims, dozens of victims.

18 Q. Who were riding the trams.

19 A. Local -- local workers, local drivers.

20 Q. Sir, you used the word "victims." When you used the word

21 "victims," whom were you referring to?

22 A. Oh, not victims. Sorry. So killed and wounded. Sorry, not

23 victims.

24 Q. Yeah, whom -- who would be killed and wounded?

25 A. Passengers, surely.

Page 18181

1 Q. Of the trams.

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. Thank you. You referred to electricity stations and electricity

4 pylons to which you attended to in terms of repairs. Are you familiar

5 with the substation referred to as - pardon my pronunciation - Buca Potok?

6 A. Well, of course I remember the name of the place, Buca Potok. But

7 there were a number of substations around the city because electricity

8 lines were coming to Sarajevo from different directions. And probably I

9 visited this station, but I am not sure.

10 Q. Sir, as to mission command who attended to repairs of electricity

11 lines, were you not aware of the fact that the substation that supplied

12 power to Sarajevo was Buca Potok and that was the only substation that

13 supplied power?

14 A. No. It was not the only substation. I told you. It was a number

15 of them, four or probably five. And probably -- you're just giving me

16 more information to recollect and I can connect with the mission I

17 participated in.

18 Q. Do you know from where the main -- do you know at least the main

19 station which supplied power to the substations? If I may assist you, are

20 you familiar with the substation referred to as Rajlevo?

21 A. Rajlevo? I do not -- you see, I am not an electricity engineer,

22 and I cannot judge which line is more powerful and what is so -- what part

23 of the city it supplies with electricity. I -- when it was out of order,

24 I got ordered to go there and to repair. And it seems to me I have been

25 to Rajlevo substation, so probably you can give me more information,

Page 18182

1 please. Tell me.

2 Q. Sir, would you agree with me if I suggested to you that Rajlevo

3 was the main station from which electricity was supplied to Sarajevo?

4 A. Well, I told you, I am not an expert and I do not know. Probably

5 part of the city it supplied with electricity. But I am not an expert in

6 that.

7 Q. Would you agree with me if I suggested to you that if -- if

8 electricity supply to Sarajevo was interrupted, it would also interrupt

9 the water supply as well as the capacity to operate trams?

10 A. Well, of course electricity cutoff inflicted all spheres of

11 activity inside the city. And without electricity, of course trams cannot

12 operate. But after the tram line was put into operation, I do not

13 remember a long period, that day or even days, that the -- trams were not

14 operational. So the greater part of time it was enough electricity

15 to -- to support tram line activity.

16 Q. You stated that you were involved in renovation of the tram lines

17 and the trams.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you clarify as to what type of renovations or repairs were

20 conducted.

21 A. During the war activity, nearly the whole line, especially

22 cables -- electricity cables were destroyed. All pylons which were

23 supporting such lines were damaged or completely destroyed. And workers

24 step by step checked and renovated all the pylons and then put a in new

25 cable, a new wire -- I can't say "wire" because it is very thick thing.

Page 18183

1 So they put it -- they fixed it on such pylons. And after the ground

2 communications were also fixed. So the tram line was put into operation.

3 So it was a rather big job.

4 Q. Did you have to effect repairs to the tram lines themselves?

5 A. When I say "tram line," I mean the whole infrastructure, both

6 ground and wires upside.

7 Q. So what you're saying is that the lines on the ground, as well as

8 the electricity cables, were all repaired.

9 A. It was, sure.

10 Q. How about the trams themselves?

11 A. Trams during the war were stored in the -- in the tram company

12 inside garage, and as far as I know, no big damage was caused to them.

13 Q. When you started your repairs, what type of damage was -- had been

14 caused to the tram lines? What did you observe?

15 A. So all electric wires were cut, were laying on the ground. Pylons

16 were in disorder, so -- and that is all.

17 Q. Can you clarify what you mean by "disorder." In what state were

18 the pylons?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, may I ask you. The witness has

20 testified before that the pylons were either damaged or totally -- totally

21 destructed. You're going again and again. I'm just waiting for the

22 question about how much bolts and nuts would be used for each pylon to be

23 repaired. Would you please --

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. I will quickly move

25 through this line of questioning.

Page 18184

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not the tram line but the line of questioning

2 could be --

3 Yes. Please proceed.


5 Q. You said some repairs were effected to the lines themselves, the

6 tram lines. What type of damage was caused to the lines? I'm not

7 referring to the electricity lines or the pylons but the tram lines

8 themselves on which the trams move.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean the rails that --

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The rails.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might cause some confusion, what you use.

12 THE WITNESS: As far as I remember, there were three or four

13 places where rails were damaged themselves by mortar shells, and the

14 workers had to cut off damaged places and install new pieces of rails.


16 Q. So there were rails which had been subject to mortar shell fire.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You said the trams were not that damaged. Was there some type of

19 damage caused to the trams themselves? And just to -- in the interest of

20 time factor, did you observe bullet holes on the trams or damage caused by

21 shooting?

22 A. Well, I didn't inspect tram wagons so -- during the tram line

23 renovation. But when everything was in order and trams went out of

24 garage, so they were in order and no traces of any bullets or shell

25 fragments were seen on them.

Page 18185

1 Q. You did not inspect them prior to the repairs.

2 A. No.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes the cross-examination,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

7 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Piletta-Zanin or

8 Ms. Pilipovic?

9 Yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But it

11 will be a very short line of questioning.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

13 Q. [Interpretation] To come back to the trams and tram rails, the

14 very last question that you were asked, you said that you had not examined

15 those vehicles previously. But my question is: Did you, on the vehicles,

16 that is, on the tram carriages that were leaving the depot, did you see

17 any marks of repairs done to the body of the carriages which would be

18 reflecting the hit by a bullet or by a mortar shell or something like that

19 as indicated by the Prosecution?

20 A. Well, I -- at the ceremony of putting into operation tram line, I

21 was among the first passengers on the tram -- well, surely. And of course

22 I noticed that some parts of trams are painted -- are painted in

23 fresh -- are freshly painted. But I cannot say that it was due to bullets

24 or something like that. It seems to me for a couple of years they were

25 not used, so they were just cleaned and some places were brushed.

Page 18186

1 Q. Thank you. And once again, talking about the repairing fashion of

2 the trams, you said on page 50, line 6, in relation to provocations and

3 the feelings which caused the Serb forces, and you said the following, and

4 I'm quoting you now: [In English] "Frankly speaking, there were reasons

5 to be afraid of that." [Interpretation] Do you remember that answer?

6 A. Sorry. I will read it once more, because it was mis -- an

7 interruption in translation.

8 Q. I'm talking about page 50, line 6.

9 A. So I read and remember now what I meant.

10 Q. My question is as follows --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think there

12 are some problems with my microphone. I don't know if --

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know. But if there's -- I hear you well.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Then in that case, it is all

15 right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Is it because you -- there's some circle --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. But to -- for me it is

18 perfect. It is perfect.

19 Q. Witness, my question is: What --

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.

21 Q. What did you, witness, mean when you said "frankly they had

22 reasons," and so on and so forth?

23 A. Yes. I remember now what I meant when saying that. Serbs -- the

24 Serbian side very frequently blamed Muslim side that Muslim snipers used

25 neutral zone or even went on Serbian territory, shoot from the Serbian

Page 18187

1 territory at civilian citizens and even killed them just to -- just to

2 provoke firing back and to blame Serbian side in atrocities. I

3 couldn't -- so personally I couldn't neither prove or disprove that. But

4 I had a conversation with a Russian UNPROFOR officer which I met after the

5 Russian Battalion arrival in February -- it seems to me it was in

6 February, yeah -- in February 1994. They had -- the Russian Battalion had

7 a couple of checkpoints just close to the river on the -- again, on the

8 south bank of the river. Now, I know that. Well, and this officer,

9 lieutenant, it seems to me -- it seems to me I remember his family name,

10 Chervonenko [Realtime transcript read in error "Cervomyenko"]. It is a

11 Ukrainian family name. That is why I remember.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please spell it out as well.

13 THE WITNESS: It will be a nightmare.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please look at the screen, 57, line 9

15 to see whether that comes close. If not, I would have to ask you

16 nevertheless to spell as good as you can.

17 THE WITNESS: Of course not. It is misspelt. So

18 C-h-e-r-v-o-n-e-n-k-o. Correct. And I met him during one of my missions.

19 So I need his information how to find the spot of the water pipeline

20 damage. And after the mission I had a conversation with him and asked

21 about shooting activity in his area, and he told me an interesting thing:

22 The Russian Battalion was equipped with night vision binoculars, night

23 vision equipment, and his soldiers and personally he himself during the

24 night duty saw Muslim soldiers going into the neutral zone and further.

25 And during the next day there were active shooting from that direction.

Page 18188

1 And he told me that such night movements of soldiers equipped with sniper

2 rifle was regular, nearly each night.

3 Well, that is -- that is why I told you that I think there were

4 reasons by Serbian side to demand that all cease-fire agreements should be

5 signed by all warring parties.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Very well. In order to make things clear, I need to ask you to be

8 very precise. In which direction did these infantry persons fire? You

9 said that it was only the next day that they would open that fire. But in

10 which direction did they fire?

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.


13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This issue doesn't arise from

14 cross-examination.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin is asking clarification of the

16 answer the witness has given in order to avoid any confusion. I think

17 he's entitled to do so.

18 Sir, would you please clarify your answer as to were there some

19 soldiers coming from where, crossing from what part and what part, and

20 then subsequently the fire was observed.

21 THE WITNESS: The officer told me that soldiers went from the old

22 city, crossed the river, and then went in the south direction up to the

23 hill where -- which was the area of Serbian forces -- the position of

24 Serbian forces. Well, and during the day the fire was done in the

25 direction of the old city.

Page 18189

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you. I perhaps need some clarification, but -- but perhaps

3 we shall come back to that later.

4 You were asked about the damage done to the rails -- to the tram

5 lines, and you said in three or four places. I'd like you to be more

6 precise. When you say "in three or four places," is it just a manner of

7 speaking as one says "one or two," or are you telling us that there were

8 only three or perhaps four places at most which needed repairs at the

9 ground level, or rather, the repairs of the rails of the trams themselves?

10 A. I told you four -- it seems to me I told you four or five, and I

11 still insist there were really four or five.

12 Q. Thank you. Witness, you were asked several questions about - I

13 don't know what to call it, the sniper strasse or sniper alley or sniper

14 strasse; at any rate, the street targeted by snipers - and I'd like you to

15 give me some more detail about something. To begin with, how long was

16 this alley? What did it cover in Sarajevo? From east to west or from

17 west to east, what was it along it?

18 A. Well --

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I object.

20 THE WITNESS: A couple of kilometres.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Although there was a reference to sniper alley,

22 Mr. President, I wonder if the Defence is entitled to ask the witness

23 about topographic surrounding the sniper alley. That isn't an issue that

24 came out in cross-examination.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand, as a matter of fact, that

Page 18190

1 Mr. Piletta-Zanin wanted to know what distance the witness had in mind

2 when he was talking about sniper alley. Some information was given

3 already where he testified that going from PTT building where, I would

4 say, all the parties and the Chamber meanwhile knows approximately where

5 it's situated to the old city. And the question has now been answered, so

6 I would say that this clarification would --

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 Q. Then on the basis of the principle that this question has been

9 answered and along the length between the PTT building and the old city,

10 can you tell us during your tour of duty in Sarajevo, did to the south

11 of this-- was there to the south of the this alley just one force or were

12 there several forces involved in the conflict?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, has this not been clearly answered

14 by the witness, where he said to the south that, you then enter into the

15 neutral zone, and in order to get into the neutral zone you have to -- I

16 think just wondering whether --

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. If it is clear to

18 the Chamber, then it will be so for the Defence. Thank you very much.

19 Q. You said in one of your answers to the Prosecution about

20 provocations, and you gave us an example, which was a hearsay thing but

21 about the infiltration of soldiers across the front line. And when you

22 spoke about provocation, did you also have in mind something else, or did

23 you also -- could you also think of some other examples?

24 A. Well, when I spoke about infiltration of soldiers, I meant this

25 type. I considered it provocation. Then shooting -- mortar shelling from

Page 18191

1 the vicinity of UNPROFOR objects just to call the fire back, again, I

2 consider it provocation. Well, and there was one incident which I was the

3 target of such provocation, and unfortunately UNPROFOR authorities also

4 took part in that. So we continued tram line reparation just to extend

5 the tram line along the whole street, because first part -- so in

6 spring -- in spring 1994 only the part of the tram line was put into

7 operation. And slowly but steadily we continued renovation of other

8 lines. And what -- just a moment. I just -- by incident I switched off

9 the monitor. Can I --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although it's not necessary for you to read,

11 we'll allow you to read to see where the words are.

12 THE WITNESS: But nevertheless, it's no good.

13 Well, and in the beginning of -- it seems to me it was in the

14 beginning of summer 1994. I had reparation just close to PTT building.

15 It was the end of one of tram lines, just the round -- when all trams are

16 going around and then go back. And it was during -- along the so-called

17 sniper strasse there were a lot of places where crossroads and especially

18 dangerous places were shielded by containers. And this place -- I mean,

19 the end of the tram line also was shielded by two or in some places three

20 levels of containers. And one of the days during the mission I saw that a

21 big French team with a special engineer elevator which can move these

22 containers arrived at the place we were working at, and they were

23 accompanied by mini-buses of a number of international information

24 agencies, CNN, it seems to me AP or -- and something -- and others. But

25 it was very strange because this whole team was led by General Soubirou,

Page 18192

1 and it was very strange because to -- it's not his duty. For a general

2 it's too small task to be present at such movement of containers.

3 And so the job started, and in 10, 15 minutes a number of

4 containers were moved aside. And immediately small gun shooting started

5 from the part of -- from the Serbian side. I cancelled the mission and

6 went to PTT, and for me it was very strange why so -- French Battalion

7 arrived to move aside, and why it caused fire back. And frankly speaking,

8 my whole mission was put into a very dangerous situation.

9 I visited liaison officers, asked them what's going on, and they

10 told me that for a couple of weeks there were negotiations between

11 UNPROFOR and Serbian side because the Muslim side asked UNPROFOR to allow

12 to eliminate -- to move aside containers. Frankly speaking, I don't

13 know -- I do not know the purpose of this request.

14 Serbian local commanders opposed to that, and their reason was

15 that just behind the containers there was a big neutral zone. There were

16 a lot of small houses, one-, two-storey houses which nobody lived in

17 because they were heavily damaged, and the Serbian side was afraid that it

18 would be the area of Muslim snipers infiltration just again to make

19 provocation. And they gave no permission to move the containers aside,

20 and they warned several times that in case of any movement of the

21 containers, the team would be shot at. So I was, frankly speaking -- I

22 felt anguish because I was just put into a very dangerous situation

23 deliberately, intentionally. That is why -- and when I came nearly 30

24 minutes after incident to the TV room, it's already been shown on all

25 international channels about this Serbian attack of UNPROFOR forces.

Page 18193

1 Well, I still consider that it was a pure provocation, prepared pure

2 provocation.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, usually --

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: One more last question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I was a bit surprised by the very long answer.

6 Otherwise, I would have taken a break. But if it's just one short answer

7 and one -- then we could ask the consent of --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: I cannot guarantee anything --


10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: -- In relation to the answer.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, you said the following in relation to Markale, that the

14 attention of all UN staff -- [In English] "The attention of all UN

15 personnel was drawn to the explosions." [Interpretation] That's what is

16 in the transcript. And my question is the following: Did you ever have

17 the opportunity at the level of other UN authorities to hear any comment

18 whatsoever that you could perhaps say that it was close to that captain or

19 major in relation to what he had said?

20 A. I don't remember any official or unofficial comments on that

21 because one month have passed till my conversation with the Russian

22 officer and one month is a rather long period during the war activity.

23 And in a month already attention was switched into other matters.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: Thank you.


Page 18194

1 We'll adjourn for 20 minutes, so we'll resume at 1.00. And there

2 might be some more questions from the Bench.

3 Yes, there certainly will be questions from the Bench.

4 We'll adjourn until 1.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I've been informed that perhaps both parties would

8 like to address the Chamber. Or if there's -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is

9 that ...?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As far as both parties are

11 concerned, I don't know. But certainly the Defence does.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since Mr. Ierace is on his feet --

13 So please make the submissions you'd like to make.

14 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. We have not yet received

15 the required notice from the Defence as to the identity and order of the

16 witnesses to be called next week. I imagine that there may be a problem

17 in that after the next five confirmed witnesses, we are then into the

18 witnesses to be subpoenaed and the experts. And I assume at this stage

19 that there's little prospect of the subpoenaed witnesses being available

20 next week, perhaps even the week after. Nevertheless, the Prosecution is

21 anxious to know the identity of the witnesses following the next five.

22 And assuming that that order remains unchanged, in particular because the

23 experts require a lot of preparation and there are a number of unresolved

24 issues between the Prosecution and Defence quite separate from the

25 identified admissibility issues which are contained in the Prosecution

Page 18195

1 filed motion. I'm referring to translations of the annexes. And indeed,

2 in some cases, no annexes.

3 So Mr. President, I'd be grateful -- I appreciate that the Trial

4 Chamber is working on that response. And I wonder whether a solution

5 might be that if the Trial Chamber has identified one or more experts who

6 either conditionally or unconditionally may be called by the Defence,

7 whether that -- those names could be indicated. That would then give the

8 Prosecution some names to work on, in terms of background preparation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I perhaps answer that question rather

10 quickly. The Prosecution should be prepared to -- for cross-examination

11 for, let's say, all the expert witnesses.

12 MR. IERACE: Thank you for that, Mr. President.

13 The second issue is in relation to the possible evidence of the

14 accused. There's an issue that perhaps we've overlooked to date, and that

15 is notice to the Prosecution of exhibits which might be tendered through

16 the accused and perhaps also the period of time that the Defence

17 anticipates he would be in chief, but especially the exhibits. I've been

18 wondering how that could be dealt with in a way that does not contravene

19 the decision of the Trial Chamber indicated yesterday, which is that the

20 Defence can leave their decision until the very last moment as to whether

21 they in fact call him at the end of the fact witnesses.

22 A possibility, I respectfully submit, is that the Defence be

23 required to identify the exhibits in advance to the Prosecution for the

24 proposals to tender through the accused if he calls the accused. And that

25 period of notice be seven days prior to the anticipated calling of the

Page 18196

1 last fact witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, perhaps -- if these were the

3 issues, we'll first listen to Mr. Piletta-Zanin. I don't know whether

4 they are about the same subject or about a different subject, but let's

5 first listen what he wants to cover.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. We have

7 reconsidered the matter. In order to show the greatest degree of loyalty.

8 Although, we believe - and you know what we believe - as of tomorrow we

9 will hand over to the Prosecution a summary that will be possibly the

10 first summary of what could be - and I'm using the conditional here,

11 "could be" - a possible testimony of General Galic. I take note now that

12 the Prosecution wishes - and that is obviously logical - that is handed

13 over a list of exhibits. I have to say that it has -- they have not asked

14 this of us before. In any case, we will need more time for that than a

15 summary because we are still working on a hypothetical level. However, we

16 will try and do our best.

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you are providing the Prosecution by tomorrow with

18 the -- with a summary of what, as you said, could be the testimony of

19 General Galic, I think the most important thing is while preparing for

20 cross-examination not to be confronted with elements that are not

21 contained in the list or in the summary.

22 As I indicated yesterday, the Chamber requires you to provide as

23 soon as possible a detailed survey of subjects you want to touch upon

24 during the examination; and therefore, if you are preparing that, please

25 keep in mind that it might be, although not preferable, it might be less

Page 18197

1 serious if there would be something in which you finally would decide not

2 to put any questions on to General Galic, but it certainly would create

3 greater problems if issues would not be in there on which you'd like to

4 examine General Galic.

5 As far as the seven days are concerned, the exhibits, that was

6 what I would say standard -- standard ruling. We mainly discussed until

7 now whether General Galic would be finally in the list of witnesses to be

8 examined. I -- the Chamber did not give the opportunity to make up its

9 mind at the very last moment but only to say no. So they should prepare

10 in the ordinary way by providing the detailed survey and, as usual, by

11 providing the exhibits, at least the list of exhibits that you'd like to

12 use during the examination. And thirdly, I think it would be fair if you

13 would give how much time you wish to use during the examination if you

14 finally would not refrain from calling General Galic. So if you would

15 proceed in whatever way to enable the Prosecution to prepare for

16 cross-examination as if General Galic would testify. If you'd finally

17 refrain from it, we'll then hear at the moment indicated by the Chamber

18 before.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.


21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] This is why - and I'm

22 referring to the first part of your remark - that is the reason why I

23 spoke of first summary, and the reason for that was that this document was

24 to be submitted quite logically to General Galic. And if we want to have

25 it tomorrow, obviously that will be the result of a discussion between

Page 18198

1 General Galic and his representatives -- legal representatives. So

2 Mr. Ierace has to understand that this is the beginning of something else,

3 and if it is something very precise that he can start to work on, then

4 that is fine, but certainly it will not be final.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it is the start, it should be a substantive

6 start. And if you say it's not the final version, then it should be clear

7 that the final version should not be a totally different version but

8 perhaps a more detailed, more precise version.

9 The Chamber would like to be informed in every stage of the next

10 coming days if there would be problems between the parties -- considerable

11 problems, because we have unfortunately no time to spend on disagreements

12 on procedural matters. We now have to concentrate on the days and weeks

13 to come at this trial and to use our time as efficiently as possible.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not an

15 example. It's an important fact regarding what you've said. The Defence

16 has always wondered about the term of campaign. This is one of the main

17 issues in this case. I have written to the Prosecution and asked very

18 precise question asking, this has happened, this has happened, is that a

19 campaign? Does this represent a campaign? I'm still waiting their

20 response in order to find out whether yes or no, I should be examining in

21 chief in this way on these questions. I have to say that I have never

22 received the response from the Prosecution in essence to find out if

23 certain type of actions by Muslim forces, whether that would be regarded

24 as campaign. For instance, by taking citizens and forcing them to work on

25 the front line, I am still awaiting that answer, possibly within the same

Page 18199

1 delay of time. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I first ask you: What is the basis in the

3 Rules on which you require this answer to be given by the Prosecution?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I demand to

5 have it not on the basis of rules but simply that there should be a

6 cooperation between the parties.


8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's all.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I understand.

10 Mr. Ierace, any observations to be made in respect of what

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin told us and what I meanwhile told the parties?

12 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. I don't recollect the letter. I

13 don't know whether I've received it. Perhaps Mr. Piletta-Zanin could

14 provide us with another copy of it. I can certainly tell him in relation

15 to his example, the answer is no, that's not part of the campaign. And if

16 the other questions are of a similar nature, I expect an immediate

17 response -- I'll be able to give an immediate response.

18 Mr. President, given the sequence of witnesses, as I presently

19 understand it, it would seem that following the testimony of the next five

20 identified witnesses, if we don't have any subpoenaed witnesses we then go

21 immediately to the possibility of General Galic giving evidence. He may

22 not. In which case we then go straight to the experts, I assume. And

23 that may happen next week.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- it's a bit of speculation, Mr. Ierace,

25 on what will happen. Because as -- as the Chamber has considered the

Page 18200

1 matter of the subpoena of -- subpoenaing witnesses, the Chamber is very

2 much concerned that whatever witness the Defence wants to call appears in

3 this courtroom. And therefore, apart from immediately giving an order

4 which would certainly bring the matter in very formalistic channels has

5 been considering also whether there would be other ways of securing what

6 is important for the Defence; that is, that they can examine the witnesses

7 in this court. It's still uncertain what exactly, also in view of time,

8 will happen. And I think it will be -- I think it's good that we keep in

9 mind that the moment that we have heard the last witness of fact and start

10 the examination of expert witnesses is very, very close. That's also the

11 reason why I'm very much stressing that preparations should continue. But

12 the uncertainty as to these witnesses of which a subpoena has been

13 requested would easily lead to speculations as to the time frame during, I

14 would say, the next 10 to 14 days. And perhaps we should give it some

15 more consideration before taking decisions on that.

16 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, the two matters I was about to

17 draw your attention to are, firstly, given that General Galic may be a

18 witness next week and given the Defence has said the summary it will

19 provide tomorrow, although you've required it to be substantive, will not

20 be the final version, could we at least have a deadline of, say, Monday,

21 which would give the Defence an opportunity to speak to the accused, a

22 deadline of Monday for the Prosecution to receive the final 65 ter summary

23 in respect of General Galic in the event that he gives evidence.

24 And secondly, would it not be appropriate for the Defence to

25 indicate an order of the expert witnesses that it will call. That would

Page 18201

1 be of great assistance to the Prosecution in terms of our preparation for

2 their. We have to consult our experts in relation to the contents of

3 their reports and there is other preparation. If the Defence could be

4 required to indicate tomorrow who their first expert would be and then

5 perhaps early next week the order of the remaining experts, whenever it is

6 they will be called, the Prosecution would be very grateful.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Would the Defence be willing to give a calling order

8 of these expert witnesses?

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you'll give

10 me your leave. A few words on what Mr. Ierace said. Thank you.

11 Firstly, it would be almost impossible to give Monday or latest

12 Monday a definitive summary. It would be important for me to speak in

13 depth, in detail with General Galic in a language which is not my

14 language, and this is -- will require time, and I don't think that we can

15 do this work in such a brief delay of time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let me just briefly respond to

17 that. Usually you give a summary of the witness statement at the

18 beginning of the Defence case; you give a summary. We are now very close

19 to the moment where if General Galic testifies, he'll have to

20 testify -- in the common law practice, sometimes when someone reserves the

21 right whether or not to call an accused, he might hear from a Chamber that

22 it's not uncommon to draw inferences from the fact that one will first

23 hear all the evidence and only then provide a summary. You do not hear me

24 say that. You do not -- you have never heard this from the Chamber. But

25 to tell me now that where lead counsel is a native B/C/S speaker because

Page 18202

1 of language problems where General Galic might be called on very short

2 notice, that you'd need more time, might be asking a bit too much.

3 If there's any other observation you'd like to make, please do so.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. We shall

5 consult -- no, I won't be answering that. But we shall discuss the

6 question of the order of witnesses and provide the answer as soon as

7 possible. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The order of expert witnesses. When do you

9 think you could give an indication as to what order you'd like to ...?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, now I believe it

11 could be done on Monday. But first I need to communicate with our expert

12 witnesses. And I cannot do it before Saturday, because we shall be

13 working tomorrow.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course you have to prioritise. But you

15 might have something in mind by yourself that you'd prefer to hear this

16 expert witness first rather than another one. I would invite the parties

17 to discuss what is in your mind, what you're aiming at so that at least

18 even before the weekend the Prosecution has some indication as to what you

19 expect to achieve even -- I do expect that if you want first to hear

20 expert witness A, then B, C, D, E, and F, then the final results will not

21 be that F will be the first to heard and A the last one.

22 Yes. And since you invoke the need for the parties to cooperate,

23 I think there could be some fruitful discussions on this point and then

24 give a final answer by next Monday.

25 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

Page 18203

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in relation to

2 possible other witnesses, what I merely wish to say to the Chamber is that

3 we shall try to talk with certain persons whom we would like to call, but

4 the answer -- the answer from people whom we would like to call was that

5 the time was too short.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

7 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

8 The Chamber would like to finish with this witness today, if possible. We

9 have got 20 minutes left.

10 MR. IERACE: If I may be excused, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Moroz, we had to deal with a few procedural

14 issues; so therefore, you had to wait a bit longer. I apologise for that.

15 First Judge Nieto-Navia will put questions to you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 You have just mentioned an incident in the summer 1994, the one

19 with the containers and so on. Apart from that, were the workers

20 repairing the tram lines targeted by snipers or other type of fire when

21 doing their work?

22 A. As far as I remember, it was -- during tram reparation mission,

23 it was the only incident when I had to cancel the mission. It was the

24 only such case, incident, yeah.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No more questions.

Page 18204

1 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

3 [Interpretation] Witness, following up on your answer asked by

4 Judge Nieto-Navia, you said that the incident was the only one -- that

5 that particular incident was the only one which happened in the street

6 called sniper alley. But according to my notes - and I'm quoting

7 you - answering a question that you were asked, you responded - and I will

8 quote you in English - [In English] "Usually, we were shot at from the

9 neutral zone on or in the area which just was the front line."

10 [Interpretation] And it was within the context you were speaking, within

11 the context of the sniper strasse. I do not know. Perhaps I didn't

12 understand you. But you were exposed to fire when you worked repeatedly,

13 or was that only one incident that you told us about when the containers

14 were removed and when you were targeted from the so-called neutral area?

15 A. I told you that it was the only incident when I had -- like a

16 mission commander -- when I had to cancel the mission, to stop all jobs,

17 just to evacuate workers from the area because of rather intensive small

18 gunfire after the removal of the containers. In other cases, there was

19 some shooting, sometimes shelling, but -- so I didn't cancel mission. We

20 continued working after some interruption. And I didn't have to evacuate

21 the whole team from the repair area.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Now I understand you well. Thank

23 you very much for this clarification. So you are confirming to us what

24 the transcript says that [In English] "we were shot at." That it was a

25 regular occurrence. You were frequently targeted.

Page 18205

1 A. I wouldn't say "frequently." There were cases --

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Sorry. But you used the word

3 "usually."

4 A. Probably it will be better for you to remind me the context I told

5 you, just for me to better clarify the issue.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Yes. It was -- [Interpretation] It was the

7 alley, and you were asked if it was only sniper shots and you said: [In

8 English] "It wasn't only sniper activities. It was also mortar -- mortar

9 shelling." [Interpretation] And after that you said: [In English] "From

10 the neutral zone."

11 A. I can't say that our team was a target of shooting or shelling

12 from neutral zone because explosion and so the sound of ricochet bullet

13 usually was somewhere close but not just in the area of our job. And

14 because I have a strict order. If any shooting against our team, cancel

15 the mission. And as I told you, only once I cancelled the mission because

16 of such shooting.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then if I may, I'd

18 like to move on to another subject on which I need clarification. It has

19 to do with the water supply. And I'm quoting you in English: [In

20 English]" -- Was the section chief who examined personally pipelines. And

21 very often he was -- he came from the mission in a bad mood because on

22 Muslim side wells were cut off."

23 A. Closed. Not cut off probably. I put in a wrong way. They were

24 closed.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Okay. [Interpretation] And who was it who did

Page 18206

1 that? Which side? Was it the Muslim side which closed the wells?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Why would they do that? What

4 would they gain in this way, in your view. Was it the sabotage or what

5 was it?

6 A. So the greater part of valves -- I think nearly all valves were on

7 Muslim side, and so I can't be sure about the purpose of this closure, but

8 usually the day when it was closed UNPROFOR got complaint from Muslim side

9 that Serbs cut off water from Sarajevo.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. And it was then said -- it

11 was claimed that it had been done in the area that was controlled by the

12 Muslim army; is that so?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And how often did this happen?

15 Was it once or more often?

16 A. No. No, much more than once. Dozens of times during my tour of

17 duty, especially in the first half during winter and spring 1994.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Then you spoke about

19 damage done to the public utilities. I'm talking about electricity, gas,

20 and so on and so forth. Can you again tell us how frequently it happened.

21 Did you -- I mean, you spent a year in Sarajevo, isn't it, from October

22 1993 until October 1994; is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Did the number of such cases

25 increase? Did the frequency grow up, or did it drop, did it decline? I'm

Page 18207

1 talking about the damage done to public utilities, meaning chiefly gas,

2 electricity, and water, of course.

3 A. You see, the character of my job during the tour of duty changed

4 from the beginning till the end. In the first half of my tour of duty I

5 was involved in immediate and urgent repair mission. In the second half

6 of it, the problems became more long-lasting, just renovation of

7 some -- so pumping lines or renovation of substation -- electrical

8 substation. If in the beginning we were renewing pylons which were out of

9 order because of shelling, then mission was just to inspect. So the

10 situation in summer 1994 and autumn 1994 became more quiet, and there was

11 much less fire exchange. And there were weeks, then absolutely no war

12 activity.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But the damage. If there were no

14 activities, then one could conclude that no damage was done either.

15 A. Yes. But a lot of objects were damaged before.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. Right. But I am talking

17 about the period of time when you were in Sarajevo, that is, between

18 October and October, October 1993 to October 1994, the damage done then.

19 I'm not talking about the repairs. I'm interested in the damage, not in

20 repairs. I do not know if I am clear. I'm talking about the damage --

21 A. So you see, for instance, there are -- there were four or five

22 electricity lines coming to Sarajevo, only, as far as I remember, two of

23 them were operational. And it was critical just to -- for the city in

24 case of any damage, to renovate them as soon as possible. When the

25 situation inside and outside Sarajevo in summer and autumn 1994 became

Page 18208

1 more quiet, a number of projects were to renovate remaining lines which

2 were seriously damaged, and this renovation required much more job and

3 more --

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. But you are again talking

5 about the damage which took place before.

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Before, prior to October 1993.

8 A. Yes.


10 A. Yes, you are right.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well. May I ask

13 you to try and limit your response to a short response. And if I need

14 more information about it, I'll ask for it.

15 You told us sometimes when you would go on mission you would be

16 warned by the Muslim side for, may I say, combat activity that might make

17 your mission dangerous. Did you understand these warnings to serve -- to

18 obstruct the repairs, or whether there were expressed by way of concern

19 for the safety of those who would go on mission?

20 A. I am sure that the information inside Sarajevo was spreading very

21 quickly, and all those who lived inside knew very well about the situation

22 in the city. And when workers were afraid to go somewhere for the repair

23 mission, it was -- they had a good reason. Probably they knew something

24 that they would be exposed to -- to fire.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But let me put the question differently: When

Page 18209

1 this information would keep people off from doing the repair, did the

2 information primarily serve to the effect that there would be no repair or

3 that people would know that repair would be dangerous and therefore rather

4 stay away from the spot?

5 A. The second -- the second part of your question --


7 A. -- Will be closer to truth.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you said a lot of your missions were into

9 the old city. What kind of missions were these? Was this -- what kind of

10 damage would you repair in the old city?

11 A. First water pipeline.


13 A. Renovation or restoration. And then cleaning of sewage system.


15 A. Because of lack of water, sewage system was very quickly clogged.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. And water -- water pipes were

17 damaged mainly by what?

18 A. By mortar shelling.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mortar shelling.

20 A. Mortar shelling, because the ground detonated.


22 A. And big pipelines were damaged.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So that was not damage done

24 directly to the water pipes but as a result of the movement of the soil

25 rather than --

Page 18210

1 A. Yes, you are right.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you told us that people seemed to forget

3 about war as soon as the cease-fire would allow them to move more freely.

4 You also told us about what parties would have to sign the cease-fire

5 agreements. On the total time you spent in Sarajevo, which is

6 approximately one year, how much time you would say people did not forget

7 about the war and how much time people did seem to forget about the war,

8 if you add it?

9 A. Well, the second half of my tour of duty such periods of

10 cease-fire were more lasting. Sometimes it took two or even more weeks.

11 During the first part of tour of duty, such cease-fire usually

12 lasted no more than one week.


14 A. A couple of days.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And how long would, then, the period when there would

16 be no cease-fire? I mean, could you give us an estimate? For example, in

17 the first half, one week cease-fire to one week or three weeks or two

18 weeks -- three or four weeks? Could you give us. And then perhaps the

19 same for the second period.

20 A. I should say that I was delighted by people in the city and

21 outside as well to use any moment to feel freely, not to think about war.

22 And even in the periods between fire exchange, when they -- people have

23 two -- a couple of hours, they try to go somewhere outside their

24 apartments to sit in cafe.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. But I'm trying to find an

Page 18211

1 approximate balance on how much time people would -- if you are talking

2 about a cease-fire would not last in the beginning not longer than a

3 couple of days or not more than one week, how long would then

4 approximately be the time when there was no cease-fire in the beginning

5 and what would that be at the end where you had two weeks of, I would say,

6 more or less relax and then how long would then the period be that people

7 were not relaxed any more and ...?

8 A. So you see, my impression was that -- of course a cease-fire

9 during the first half of tour of duty were less, but they were more

10 frequently announced and more frequently violated by both sides.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how long would -- I mean, how much time

12 would it take from the announcement of one cease-fire to the next one? I

13 do understand that after a couple of --

14 A. A couple of weeks then. Two, three weeks.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that would be approximately a couple

16 of -- and then two weeks not and then again.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And then how would that be at the end of your tour of

19 duty when you said that they would last as long as two weeks, and how long

20 would there then be no cease-fire?

21 A. During summer and autumn 1994 till my departure. So practically

22 there was no fire exchanged. Very rarely was some -- one shot can be

23 heard somewhere in the vicinity of Sarajevo. That is all.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I have another question for you, at least

25 if the interpreters allow me one more question. You said it happened that

Page 18212

1 people were injured or died in an exchange of fire, and you mentioned one

2 specific example. Would you tell us a bit more where you -- I think you

3 told us that you took someone to hospital. Could you describe more in

4 detail what happened. When did you become aware of the -- of the casualty

5 that happened?

6 A. I went from PTT to Ukrainian Battalion on APC along the sniper

7 strasse, and I noticed that people which were standing just behind

8 buildings waving to me, trying to stop APC.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first say, you were not present when the

10 person was injured?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No. And what did they tell you had happened?

13 A. I stopped, and they showed me a man on the crossroad lying just

14 close to the bicycle, and people explained me that he moved just close to

15 APC along the street shielding by APC from the possible fire. Frankly

16 speaking, neither me nor the driver of APC knew about that because we were

17 inside and the APC was closed. Well, and when the speed of APC became too

18 fast and -- so on the bicycle a man couldn't pace with it, he was exposed

19 to fire from the south side and sniper killed him in head -- well, shot

20 him in head. We saw that a man was breathing, and-- because it was rather

21 cold and vapour showed that he is alive.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there, if you would allow me, also in

23 view of the time. Was there any further shooting when you arrived on the

24 spot?

25 A. No.

Page 18213

1 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that the man was killed in an exchange of

2 fire. I'm trying to understand your testimony, which indicates a shot

3 rather than exchange of fire.

4 A. No, no, no. In this time it was definitely shot by sniper.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you say it was not parties exchanging fire

6 but --

7 A. This time, not.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the other times. You said once you were

9 present. And what's the basis of your knowledge for the other events

10 where you --

11 A. So I heard and saw a number of times where shooting was from both

12 sides. And I heard -- when coming back to PTT, I heard that in that area

13 a number of dead persons were reported.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for these answers.

15 Since I have no further questions for you --

16 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Just one tiny little question,

18 please, with your leave.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If it's -- if it's -- arises from the question of the

20 Bench.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Speedily.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- The cyclist.

23 Further examination by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Age of the cyclist, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You asked the witness what the age of the --

Page 18214

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I did.

2 THE WITNESS: It seems to me he was around 50.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Fifty, yes. So 50, not 15.

4 Since there seems to be no further questions, Mr. Moroz, this

5 concludes your testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you for coming

6 a far way to The Hague and for answering all the questions of the parties

7 and the Bench, and I hope that you will safely return home.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I hope my testimony will help you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will adjourn, but not until I've thanked the

10 interpreters and the technicians to, again, having had the patience with

11 our slow conclusion of the -- of the court hearing.

12 And we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 1.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

15 the 24th day of January, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.