Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18910

1 Tuesday, 4 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.

10 Before we deal with the documents tendered through Witness DP2 and

11 the still remaining videotape and transcript tendered through

12 Witness Indic, I'd first like to inform the parties that two decisions

13 have been signed this morning. And therefore, I take it that they have

14 been filed. The first one is the decision on the request for certificate

15 of appeal on the -- to put it briefly, to the decision of the Chamber in

16 respect of the accused -- accused's testimony.

17 The second decision is a decision we should deal with in closed

18 session, or at least in private session. So could we please turn into

19 private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18911

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Page 18915

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5 [Open session]

6 JUDGE ORIE: There is another issue that I would briefly like to

7 deal with, and that is the --

8 MR. STAMP: May I interpose briefly, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. STAMP: We're having problems with the connection to LiveNote.

11 Could --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you're not the only one, because as you

13 may see, that Judge Nieto-Navia and I am -- are sharing at this moment our

14 portable screen, because we had some difficulties.

15 MR. STAMP: We have none to share. I wonder --

16 JUDGE ORIE: If there's no -- then we really have a problem,

17 because the Chamber decided that if we would have no access to the -- to

18 the LiveNote, that we could not start. But by sharing it, we thought we

19 could. But if this cannot be solved --

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just wait and see what the technicians can do

22 for us.

23 Would the Prosecution agree that I address the other issue even

24 without the LiveNote functioning? Because you might not need that for

25 what I'm going to say now.

Page 18916

1 I do understand that there are at least some problems in respect

2 of the time of arrival of expert witnesses. I was informed that

3 the -- that the Victims and Witnesses Unit was a bit concerned about early

4 arrival and expert witnesses having to stay for a very long time before

5 giving their testimony. The Chamber has instructed the -- one of the

6 legal officers to deal with that, and the Defence should be prepared for a

7 meeting on short notice in order to further discuss the time of arrival of

8 expert witnesses. They should arrive early enough to make the final

9 preparations for their examination and not so early that they are

10 spending, at high costs, a long time without being examined in this court

11 in The Hague.

12 Then while the technician is trying to solve the problem for the

13 Prosecution, Ms. Pilipovic, I think that -- well, perhaps we first should

14 go through the documents. That's an issue which might not cause you to

15 look back in the transcript that much, Mr. Ierace.

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, at some stage may I address you just

17 for a few minutes in relation to a fresh issue. I don't require LiveNote

18 to do it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps let's then do that first.

20 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, last Monday, pursuant to a direction

21 from the Trial Chamber, the Defence provided us with the order of expert

22 witnesses that they would be calling. We did not receive until last

23 Friday their list of witnesses for this week. That list indicated the

24 sequence of experts to be, the first expert, Professor Cavoski; the second

25 expert to be Milan Kunjadic, the third Professor Dusan Dunjic. This

Page 18917

1 afternoon we receive a letter from the Defence at one o'clock informing us

2 that instead of expert Dr. Kuljic, the Defence would instead call on

3 Friday --

4 JUDGE ORIE: You said instead of which witness?

5 MR. IERACE: Dr. Kuljic.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Who was not previously, in any event, on the list for

8 this week. Dr. Vilicic for Friday, that is, this Friday.

9 Going back to the sequence of the witnesses in terms of their

10 calling, Dr. Vilicic was to have been the sixth witness and Dr. Kuljic was

11 to have been the second. But in the list we received on Friday, Dr.

12 Kuljic did not appear. Instead, Milan Kunjadic and Professor Dunjic. The

13 end result, Mr. President, is something of a mess.

14 The Prosecution is not ideally placed to cross-examine Dr. Vilicic

15 at such short notice. One anticipates that if the order had been adhered

16 to, he would not have been called until either the end of next week or

17 early the week after. Instead, it's proposed to call him in three days.

18 So, Mr. President, I'd be grateful if that order could be reverted back to

19 the original order.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will deal with it. But I now better

21 understand why the Defence has indicated the arrival of the expert witness

22 Dr. Vilicic for next Thursday, whereas the Chamber still could expect

23 Dr. Vilicic to testify approximately Thursday one week after that. So

24 this is a surprise for the Chamber as well. We have to consider whether

25 Dr. Vilicic could testify next Friday, because also the Chamber has to

Page 18918

1 prepare for the examination of the expert witnesses.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I just have to

3 say that Dr. Blagoje Kuljic, we had to move him for next week, bearing in

4 mind your position that from the moment when his expert report was

5 disclosed, we needed 30 days to pass. So we expect our learned colleagues

6 to tell us what that time period is. So, Your Honour, that's what you

7 told the Defence yesterday in relation to Dr. Blagoje Kuljic.

8 But I have to say that at this very moment the Defence is in a

9 situation to bring two other witnesses who have been sitting here since

10 last Thursday. And bearing in mind yesterday, because this was unplanned

11 that we should spend the whole day examining Witness DP2, that's why we're

12 having these problems with the order of the witnesses. So now for factual

13 witnesses, the Defence still has a witness today and tomorrow,

14 Mr. Sasa Knezevic and Mr. Sinisa Krsman.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So according to the order of the

17 Defence, it will be tomorrow. That's why we've had these problems. It's

18 because of this, that on Thursday we would have Dr. Kosta Cavoski then

19 Mr. Milan Kunjadic then Mr. Dusan Dunjic. But in any case, according to

20 the Defence, Mr. Vilicic would come to testify, but that would depend how

21 long my learned colleagues would be needing to cross-examine our

22 witnesses. Otherwise, Mr. Vilicic would come and testify on Monday. But

23 that's the problem for the Defence. We find it very difficult to plan,

24 bearing in mind the that the Prosecution doesn't use its time in

25 cross-examining the witnesses that it has and that's why it makes all the

Page 18919

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Page 18920

1 problems for us, calling the witnesses on time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution has filed, meanwhile, their proposals

3 for the time they would need to cross-examine your expert witnesses. And

4 I think if you would follow the order indicated before, that the

5 examination of Dr. Vilicic would not start any earlier than the second

6 half of next week. But we still have to consider whether all the time

7 will be granted.

8 The Chamber is also confronted with a request of the Defence to

9 grant more time for another expert witness. So we'll deal with that on

10 shortest notice.

11 But I do understand that Dr. Vilicic will not be examined by next

12 Friday.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, in the interest of saving time,

14 perhaps if my learned colleague wishes to change the order, if she could

15 speak to us. Perhaps we can work out some --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

17 MR. IERACE: -- Mutually acceptable revised list. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that could be done, the Chamber would

19 welcome the outcome of such a -- such communications.

20 Then is the -- yes, Ms. Pilipovic. Let me first ask

21 whether -- no, the technician is still not ready yet.

22 Please proceed, Ms. Pilipovic.

23 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I accept that

24 the Prosecution Defence should meet, but I also have to say that the

25 Defence has been informed that the witness who has been summoned by the

Page 18921

1 Trial Chamber - that's Mr. Richard Gray - is supposed to arrive on

2 Sunday. So the Defence is planning that he should be examined on the 12th

3 and the 13th.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that should present no problem to us.

6 And I'm grateful for that warning. And if the Defence receives any

7 further warning in relation to other witnesses, I'd be grateful to be

8 informed as soon as possible.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least, the Chamber is glad that the

10 Witness Gray can appear at short notice and that the Defence can examine

11 the witnesses they want to call.

12 So if the parties would sit together and see what schedule they

13 could work out. And the Chamber would really like to be informed as soon

14 as there's any agreement, because the Chamber also has to prepare,

15 especially for the expert witnesses, where we should read the reports, try

16 to understand them, and see whether we have any questions for these

17 experts.

18 Then -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. In order to be perfectly

20 loyal, Mr. President, I have had a series of meetings with the possible

21 future witness Mr. Gray, who said that he's going to bring us some

22 material that we haven't seen yet. So I'm saying this now. This is the

23 material that we haven't been able to disclose to the Prosecution because

24 we haven't seen it. We've never had it in our possession. So it -- what

25 I'm saying is there could be some material, some video material, and I

Page 18922

1 will need a little bit of time to view it. And as soon as I've done it,

2 I'm going to communicate it immediately to the Prosecution. So the

3 Prosecution has been forewarned. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, perhaps we can look forward as well

6 disturb since my learned colleague has already spoken to Mr. Gray, to an

7 updated 65 ter summary. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is aware, since it was involved in

9 the efforts in order to make the witness arrive in The Hague, the Chamber

10 unexpectedly then took notice that spontaneously some offer was made that

11 there might be additional material. So the Defence will have time to look

12 at it and should disclose it as soon as possible to the -- to the

13 Prosecution. At the same time, if it is in the position to update the

14 65 ter summary of the witness, it should also be disclosed immediately to

15 the Prosecution.

16 Having dealt with the procedural issues, Madam Registrar, could

17 you please guide us through the documents -- the documents introduced

18 through the Witness DP2.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1816, pseudonym sheet under seal; Exhibit

20 D1817, map marked by witness; Exhibit D1818, official note, Sarajevo

21 Romanija Corps, sector of CB for security, strictly confidential, date 9

22 June 1994; D1818.1, English translation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Having heard no objections, these --

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

Page 18923

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I object to the last exhibit, D1818. I

2 maintain the same objection I made when it was presented.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat it so that I know it's not --

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is that the Witness DP2 was not party to

5 that document, and he was shown the document and merely asked whether he

6 was subject to the same treatment which is referred to in this particular

7 document. There was -- Witness DP2 was not a party to that document.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from the document you just mentioned,

9 that is, D1818, the other documents are admitted into evidence and the

10 decision will follow on D1818.

11 Madam Registrar, then we still have a remaining video and

12 transcript that has been tendered through Witness Indic.

13 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] But we have to say that you

15 didn't want to hear us in relation to this exhibit.

16 JUDGE ORIE: To what exhibit? The last one?

17 Yes. I do understand that you want to respond to the objection of

18 the Prosecution. You're entitled to respond, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am just going to check which

20 exhibit this is, because sometimes if I have to respond, I might have to

21 do it in private session. So I might have to respond later on if this is

22 necessary.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that there was already some exchange of

24 argument. But if you would like to add something to that, you're

25 perfectly free to do so. And just indicate when you find a suitable

Page 18924

1 moment.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can do it now. And I

3 can do it without disclosing anything whatsoever, Mr. President.

4 I do not see why the exhibit D1818 is in relation directly -- it

5 is in relation directly to the person in question if you ask sufficiently

6 elliptical questions, you remember that we did it at the very end of the

7 session and we didn't have to go into a closed session. And that's the

8 reason why I've elliptically asked questions. Otherwise, the exhibit in

9 question does concern the person in question directly. And I don't think

10 it should be excluded, if I understand my learned colleague's

11 intervention. As far as D1818.1 is considered, it's the same one except

12 that it's in English, so that is -- the content is the same, but it has

13 been translated in one of the languages of the Tribunal. Now, if this is

14 not admissible, because it would include somebody else, although I have

15 questioned indirectly, then this objection should not be accepted. Thank

16 you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 Madam Registrar, we'll now move to the video tendered through

19 Witness Indic.

20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The transcript has been given a number by the Defence

22 D184, whereas usually transcripts receive a number with a letter added.

23 So the suggestion to the Defence is to tender the video as D184 and the

24 transcript as D184A.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 18925

1 JUDGE ORIE: I have not fully understood the suggestion of the

2 registrar, so I'll let her speak.

3 THE REGISTRAR: The video is D1841. The transcript is D1841A.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The matter has been discussed before. And on

5 the basis of the decision of the Chamber that the video could be played,

6 it's now admitted into evidence.

7 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness?

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I am aware of, there are no protective

10 measures sought in respect of this witness, and it would be Knezevic Sasa.

11 Is that correct, Ms. Pilipovic?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then may the witness be brought into the courtroom.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may be excused?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please, Ms. Mahindaratne.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have a technical matter to

19 raise. Following what I just said a moment ago, I do not know whether

20 this kind of exhibits should be tendered under seal or not. I'm asking

21 about the future, in view of the explanation which I just gave you. I am

22 referring to Exhibit 1818 and 1818.1. I don't know if I've made myself

23 clear.

24 JUDGE ORIE: What is not quite clear to me: These exhibits were

25 dealt with in open court, were they not?

Page 18926

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: No. I now see better. It's because of the content

3 of the document, and I think they will not be put on the ELMO. They --

4 yes, they should be -- if they would be admitted, they would have to be

5 admitted under seal, yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Knezevic, I presume?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me a language you understand?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, the Rules of

13 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

14 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And

15 the text of this declaration will be handed out to you now by Madam Usher.

16 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 WITNESS: SASA KNEZEVIC

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Knezevic.

22 You will first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

23 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 18927

1 Q. Before I start asking you questions, will you please give us your

2 full name, your place and date of birth.

3 A. My name is Sasa Knezevic. I was born on the 21st of November,--

4 Q. Will you slow down because of the interpreters. Will you please

5 go as slow as possible.

6 A. So I was born on the 21st of November, 1971 in Sarajevo,

7 municipality of Centar.

8 Q. Can you tell us, in 1992 where were you living at the time and

9 what were you doing?

10 A. In 1992, I was living in Panjina Kula number 146 in a family

11 house, and I was a student. I was reading world literature at the faculty

12 of philosophy in Sarajevo.

13 Q. Mr. Knezevic, can you tell us, where do you live now and what do

14 you do today?

15 A. Now I live at Pale, and I work at the faculty of philosophy as a

16 stated professor for theory of literature and folk literature. That is my

17 subject.

18 Q. Mr. Knezevic, you told us that in 1992 you had been living in

19 Sarajevo, municipality of Centar, Panjina [Realtime transcript read in

20 error "Bajna"] Kula Street number 146 and that that was your family house.

21 Can you tell us, at the time -- and I'm referring you to 1992, 1993,

22 1994 -- whether you also lived at that address. But I will first make an

23 intervention. It is Panjina Kula, not Bajna Kula.

24 A. Panjina Kula, I'm sorry.

25 Q. Is it all right? I can see it says Bajna --

Page 18928

1 A. Well, never mind.

2 Q. So tell us, that 1992, 1993, 1994, where did you live at that

3 time?

4 A. From 1992 until 1993, I was living in Radava, which is at my

5 grandmother's. And in 1993, I went to Novi Sad, to the university there.

6 Q. So to make it quite precise, when you say 1992 that you were

7 living in Radava, when did you start living in Radava? I'm talking about

8 1992.

9 A. Yes, yes. We left the family house in May 1992. And then until

10 September 1993 I lived in Radava.

11 Q. Mr. Knezevic, when you say that between May 1992 until -- that

12 from May 1992 you have been living in Radava, does that mean that you left

13 your house? If you did, will you give us the reason and when was that in

14 May?

15 A. Like this: We left our house because, you see -- now, how shall I

16 put it? We were told that it would be better to leave it for our safety's

17 sake. It was our neighbours who told us. Even, of course, that is

18 questionable, isn't it? But until May 1992 we shared guards with them.

19 That is, in April and may we were out on joint guards with our Muslim

20 neighbours. However, in May they said that we would no longer be safe

21 there and we left our house.

22 Q. When you say that you left your houses, whom do you mean? Your

23 family or ...?

24 A. All Serbs living -- well, there in our small community, you know,

25 left their houses then. There were five family houses that belonged to my

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Page 18930

1 family, to the Knezevics.

2 Q. We shall come back to that problem later and also to your answer

3 with regard to your houses.

4 Now, will you tell us, since you told us that until September 1993

5 you lived in Radava, did you -- between September 1992 and September

6 1993 - and you tell us that that was the time when you lived in that

7 area - were you militarily engaged?

8 A. Yes, until September 1993.

9 Q. When you tell us that you were militarily involved until September

10 1993, can you tell us from when were you militarily engaged and where?

11 A. After we left our houses, I went first to Montenegro and Serbia,

12 trying to continue my studies. However, I failed to do that

13 because -- because I had not brought my documents and I they had stayed

14 behind at the faculty of philosophy in Sarajevo -- I mean documents from

15 my secondary school. So that I did not manage to enrol in studies and I

16 had to undergo admission tests in Montenegro and in the meantime my father

17 was killed and then I returned to Radava.

18 Q. You said that you returned to Radava, but you did not answer my

19 question. Where were you militarily engaged?

20 A. Yes. I've forgotten the question. My apologies. Then I was

21 involved with the Kosevo Brigade.

22 Q. When you say you were involved with the Kosevo Brigade, that you

23 were a member of the Kosevo Brigade, will you tell us, what were your

24 assignments? And which formation in the Kosevo Brigade did you belong to?

25 A. I started in an infantry unit, but later on -- well, say, in

Page 18931

1 September I was issued with an 82-millimetre mortar.

2 Q. When you say that you were issued with an 82-millimetre mortar,

3 can you tell us what positions did you hold and in terms of formation as a

4 soldier issued with an 82-millimetre mortar, who did you belong to?

5 A. We were on the position in the area of Poljine and it was a

6 battalion. It was, I think -- I think it was responsible for everything

7 that was not the front line.

8 Q. When you say that it was a battalion and that it was responsible

9 for all that was not the front line, if I got your meaning, can you tell

10 us in relation to the front line, how far were you from it and how many of

11 you were there in the area of Poljine? I mean, persons issued with

12 mortars.

13 A. The closest we were to the front line was less than 1 kilometre,

14 perhaps even less than that. And we were six who were responsible for

15 those mortars. In shifts, of course.

16 Q. Before I continue asking you questions related to your combat

17 orders, tell us, did you serve in the Yugoslav People's Army and what were

18 you --

19 A. Yes. I served my military service. I was an infantry man. And I

20 served in Trebinje and Kupari on the eve of the war, that was 1990/1991.

21 Q. When you told us that the positions -- that your position as a

22 person who was responsible for the 82-millimetre mortar was -- tell us, if

23 you know, your formation. You said a battalion in the Kosevo Brigade.

24 Can you tell us, what kind of a brigade was it and how many weapons and

25 what weapons did the brigade have, if you know?

Page 18932

1 A. Yes. The Kosevo Brigade, at least whilst I was there, was not up

2 to the military standards. That is, it was -- did not exist in its full

3 strength. It was a brigade made of people living in that area at that

4 moment, that is, people who had their houses there and people who had fled

5 from Sarajevo, that is, from the part that was controlled by Muslims at

6 that moment. So that presumably it -- there could be five to six hundred

7 men altogether in the brigade. The brigade was a light infantry brigade,

8 so it was infantry. There were mortars. I don't know.

9 Q. When you say "I don't know," does that mean that you do not know

10 if there were any other weapons apart from the infantry ones? Or when you

11 say "I don't know," does it mean that there weren't any other? Could you

12 clarify this, since you said it was a light infantry brigade.

13 A. I do not know whether there were any other weapons.

14 Q. On the position that you tell us was the position at Poljine, can

15 you tell us if that was precisely the place where you were, Poljine, or is

16 it a wider area? If not, tell us, what is it? What area is it?

17 A. Well, Poljine is a wide area. More precisely, the place was

18 called Pretrzanj [Realtime transcript read in error "Pretzanje"], as far

19 as I can remember.

20 Q. Can you tell us --

21 MR. STAMP: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Can I just ask

22 that the name of the place be spelled out, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please spell out the name you just

24 mentioned, Mr. Knezevic.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is spelled correctly.

Page 18933

1 Yes, it was translated correctly.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I also see that it is

3 spelled as you said it, except that an "R" is missing between "T" and "Z."

4 Q. Mr. Knezevic, since you told us that you were issued with an

5 82-millimetre mortar, at that place, at that position where you were, were

6 there any other mortars? And if yes, how many? And how many persons were

7 in charge of them there?

8 A. There were three mortars and six men handling those mortars.

9 Q. When you say three mortars, six men, can you tell us how many

10 men -- do you know how many men usually operated mortars under military

11 regulations?

12 A. Well, under military regulations of the Yugoslav People's Army,

13 there should be four men per mortar. However, even under these

14 regulations, under certain circumstances, it can be two. So in theory, it

15 is four, but in practice you can never have the number of people presumed

16 by the theory.

17 Q. Since you told us that you were militarily engaged until 1993,

18 that is, until September 1993, to make it all quite clear, can you tell us

19 if throughout your military engagement, you were responsible for the 82

20 mortar and were you on the same positions all the time or, rather, on that

21 one position?

22 A. Between September 1992 and September 1993, yes. And we always

23 were at that position. We did not change the position.

24 Q. When you say that in September 1993, if I understood you properly,

25 you left that position, did you -- were you engaged militarily elsewhere?

Page 18934

1 For instance, until August 1994? Or did your military engagement stop?

2 And if it did, why?

3 A. In September 1993, the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska took

4 the decision pursuant to which all those who had enrolled in some

5 university, regardless of where, were exempt, were relieved of their

6 military obligation provided they supplied every year some proof that they

7 had enrolled the next course. So between 1993 and 1998, I was a regular

8 student and I was not militarily engaged anywhere.

9 Q. When you tell us that the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska

10 had given its consent, did you personally need the consent, the

11 authorisation, of your superior? And if yes, who was that? Who was your

12 superior? That is, who did you get the authorisation to leave your unit?

13 A. That authorisation was signed by the brigade commander, and I had

14 also the authorisation signed by the then-brigade commander, Mr. Miro or

15 Miroslav, I'm not quite sure, Krajisnik.

16 Q. Was he your superior whilst you were militarily engaged on the

17 position at Poljine or was it somebody else? And if yes, tell us who was

18 that.

19 A. He was the brigade commander, and the commander of the battalion

20 was Mr. Vlado Medic.

21 Q. When you tell us that your superior, the battalion commander that

22 you belonged to was Mr. Vlado Medic, are you telling us that he was your

23 superior in relation to the receipt and issue of orders to you as a

24 soldier?

25 A. We received all our orders from him, always.

Page 18935

1 Q. When you tell us that you spent all your time at the position in

2 Poljine, can you tell us whether your mortars - your mortar - and others,

3 do you know if they were used? And if so, when and how often?

4 A. The mortars were operational all the time. Now, how often? Well,

5 as the need arose. As the need arose, in case of the action of enemy

6 mortars or in case of a major and more intensive infantry attacks.

7 Q. So if I've understood you correctly, you opened fire from your

8 mortars when, in relation to you, the mortars of the enemy were in action

9 and because of, as you told us, more intensive attacks on the infantry.

10 First, I want to ask you: How frequent were those attacks on the

11 infantry? And in that situation, what was your role and from which

12 positions did those attacks come from of the enemy?

13 A. Well, in 1992, the attacks were quite frequent. It would happen

14 several times a week. You know, there would be some fire. Whether they

15 were frontal attacks, I cannot really say yes or no. And our role was in

16 case of the action of the enemy artillery or enemy mortars, then if we

17 knew the source of that fire, then we'd open fire on them. And in case of

18 an exclusively infantry attack, we opened fire on positions of the enemy

19 infantry, because at that time the front lines had already been formed

20 both in the areas of Poljine and Kromolj and mostly other parts of the

21 front line covered by the Kosevo Brigade.

22 Q. When you told us that you also responded to the action of enemy

23 mortars, did you have any knowledge - and if so how - and what was that

24 knowledge regarding the positions from which the enemy mortars were

25 opening fire on you?

Page 18936

1 A. We had intelligence information that the enemy mortars were acting

2 from the area of Dumace which -- in the area of Kobilja Glava, then from

3 the area of Humsko Brdo, and on the other side, from the area of -- from

4 near the Kosevo Hospital. It would be on one of the terminals of 17 bus

5 was and also from the area of Pod Hrastovi.

6 Q. Mr. Knezevic, if the Defence showed you a map of the city of

7 Sarajevo, would you be able to mark the area of -- you told us the

8 hospital, Pod Hrastovi and the terminal of line 17 near the Kosevo

9 Hospital where the buses turned? And you told us that was at the turn of

10 bus 17 where the enemy mortars acted from. Can you do that, witness?

11 A. I'll try. I believe I can show it.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that would be D1842.

13 I think that is the next number. And with your leave, the Defence

14 would --

15 Q. Sir, on this map would you please mark the place where you lived.

16 And if on the map we can also see the place which you say is the place

17 called Radava.

18 Mr. Knezevic, do you recognise this map that is in front of you?

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the

20 microphone.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Then I will ask you to first mark the place where you lived.

23 A. Shall I use a pencil?

24 Q. You'll take a black marker. And make a circle. If you can, will

25 you bring the map down.

Page 18937

1 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps zoom in so that we can better see the

2 marking of the witness.

3 MR. STAMP: [Microphone not activated]... If the question could be

4 clarified a little bit more. Where he lived when?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] In 1992, before he left the area.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. Knezevic, put number "1."

10 A. [Marks]

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] So for the record, the witness

12 underneath the word -- could you read out the street where you wrote "01."

13 A. No. Sorry, between Panjina Kula and Grdonj. So sorry, where I've

14 put the new mark, now between the street of Grdonj and Panjina Kula.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, with "1" and a

16 circle the witness has marked the place where he lived in 1992, and that

17 was between the street -- between the mark -- between the street marked

18 Grdonj and Panjina Kula. So between the two lines indicating those two

19 streets.

20 Q. Mr. Knezevic, would you now mark on this map the place where you

21 tell us where the positions of the mortars of the BH army in relation to

22 the Pod Hrastovi area.

23 A. I'll put number "2."

24 Q. Could you also make a circle around it.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 18938

1 Q. So this is the area about which you tell us is the area which was

2 next to the Hrastovi hospital.

3 A. Yes, next to the Pod Hrastovi hospital. It says something else

4 here.

5 Q. Since you lived in that area, can you tell us if that was a

6 hospital which also worked in 1992, and do you have any information if it

7 went on working?

8 A. It was a hospital for lung diseases which did work in 1992. But

9 from what we could hear on the Muslim television during the war, that

10 hospital did not work during the war as a hospital.

11 Q. On this map, we can see apart from this indication number "2"

12 where you say there is a hospital, there is also an indication for a

13 cemetery. Can you tell us, which cemetery is this?

14 A. On the right-hand side, I don't know. This is turned towards

15 Bascarsija. It's part of the city which I didn't know very well. And

16 this cemetery here is in Humka. That's where I live nearby. Well this

17 Humka, that's vertically towards the town.

18 Q. When you're speaking about the cemetery that you know was in the

19 area of the city where you lived, that's above number 2. Is that what you

20 mean?

21 A. Yes, that's Humka.

22 Q. When you tell us that where the enemy mortars were was also the

23 public transport number 17 line terminal, was that a tram or a bus?

24 A. It was a bus.

25 Q. Can you please also mark that position.

Page 18939

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Page 18940

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. You also told us that the territory of Humsko Brdo and Dumace, for

3 you this was also a target which was where the mortars were firing towards

4 you. On this map, could you please mark the area of Hum and the area of

5 Dumace.

6 A. There is Hum hill on this map but Dumace is not because it

7 probably belongs to the municipality of Vogosca, so it's not on the actual

8 map.

9 Q. Regardless of the fact that we know from previous testimony what

10 Hum hill area is, could you please mark on this map -- can you please

11 indicate if you can see this area.

12 A. It's a wider area of Hum hill here.

13 Q. Can you please put a circle around number 4, please.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Now that you've marked on this map the area that -- or the areas

16 that you've told us were the positions from where enemy mortars were

17 active, were firing, can you tell us whether you personally had

18 information or knowledge - and if you have, what were these - whether the

19 enemy forces in this area also had other weapons at their disposal.

20 A. What I know is that in the area of Zuc, there was an enemy tank.

21 It fired from the area of Zuc. Then there was an enemy tank that

22 was firing from the tunnels that link up Pofalici, that is, the railway

23 station with Kosevo. And there were also -- it's either that tank or

24 another tank -- there was almost some self-propelled vehicles in the area

25 of the engineering and architecture faculties which are in the vicinity of

Page 18941

1 the tunnel.

2 Q. You mentioned a tunnel. Do you mean one tunnel or two tunnels or

3 more tunnels?

4 A. Well, there were two tunnels. One was operational, so we usually

5 say "the tunnel."

6 Q. Can you please mark the tunnel that was operational and for which

7 you say was used for firing.

8 A. It's here, marked as "1," but I will mark it here.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please just zoom in a bit more to the

10 marked area. Yes.

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And when you tell us that the area near the faculties -- you said

13 there was a self-propelled vehicle. Can you perhaps clarify this and be

14 more specific. What do you mean by "a self-propelled vehicle"? Can you

15 please describe it.

16 A. A self-propelled vehicle is a vehicle which has a track. It looks

17 like a tank, but it doesn't have a field gun of a large calibre. It has

18 anti-aircraft machine-gun and an anti-aircraft gun, and it could have a

19 base for firing field guns.

20 Q. Can you please describe the area -- can you tell us where the area

21 which that you've identified from which these self-propelled vehicles

22 fired.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. Under number "6," this is the area that you have marked as

25 being ...?

Page 18942

1 A. Next to the faculties.

2 Q. When you have marked these areas, first of all, I'd like you to

3 tell us how frequently in relation to your positions -- and if they are,

4 how frequently were enemy mortars active, firing towards you?

5 A. In the period when I was there, that depended. Sometimes it would

6 be every day, and sometimes there would be seven or ten days without any

7 firing. But you also have to bear in mind that also during that period

8 there were various cease-fires that were signed during which time there

9 was no artillery or mortar fire.

10 Q. Mr. Knezevic, in order to have everything clear, I believe that

11 you told us about the area of Dumace that cannot be seen on this map. Can

12 you perhaps explain on the map what is this area. Where would it be

13 in relation to the positions to the north? Where is Dumace located?

14 A. North. North from this map.

15 Q. Can you mark on the map the direction.

16 A. That would be the direction towards Vogosca. That is going up

17 there. I can put an arrow there.

18 Q. Can you please look at it again, whether it says anywhere here

19 "Dumace". Mr. Knezevic, can you please --

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom on this area,

21 on this area on the map.

22 Q. Mr. Knezevic, is this the area of Kobilja Glava and the area of

23 Dumace?

24 A. Yes, the area of Kobilja Glava.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 18943

1 MR. STAMP: For the record, we should know what the answer is in

2 respect of -- perhaps it is in respect of what we see on the screen, but

3 perhaps that should be described, delineated for the record.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has put an arrow on the map just below

5 the letter "H." Could you explain to us what that arrow exactly

6 indicates.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was asked by the Defence counsel

8 which direction this was going in, and I said this was the north. That's

9 all.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. As far as I've understood you, you've marked the direction of

12 north as the direction where the area of Dumace was.

13 A. No. You've asked me where the north is, so I told you where the

14 north is.

15 Q. Yes. But in -- according to you, where would the Dumace area be

16 in relation to Kobilja Glava, if you can find it on the map, the words

17 "Kobilja Glava." They're on the map.

18 A. This map -- no. But it would be about here. But I cannot really

19 tell you on this map.

20 Q. Can you tell us how far away is Dumace in relation to Kobilja

21 Glava?

22 A. Well, you see, this is the street, Kobilja Glava. This is a whole

23 area that's called Kobilja Glava. And the area of the city is called

24 Kobilja Glava, in fact.

25 Q. In the area of Kobilja Glava, is the area that you told us was

Page 18944

1 called Dumace, which is where the enemy mortars were located?

2 A. Yes, yes. In a wider area of Kobilja Glava, yes.

3 Q. Mr. Knezevic, if you can, can you please write between the words

4 "Kobilja Glava" and the direction indicated with an arrow with which you

5 have indicated the north, can you please indicate where Dumaca would be,

6 where you would locate Dumace.

7 A. That would be between the street which is going towards Vogosca

8 and Kobilja Glava.

9 Q. You can write the word "Dumace."

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Mr. Knezevic, you told us when you answered the question about the

12 frequency of the mortar firing from the area as you have indicated being

13 the mortar enemy positions, you told us that this also depended on

14 cease-fires. Can you tell us, in the area of responsibility where you

15 were, the area of responsibility of your brigade, do you have any

16 information how frequently were cease-fires signed and how were they

17 respected? How long were they valid for?

18 A. Cease-fires -- cease-fires were signed on a higher level, of

19 course, and usually they would be violated through an infantry fire

20 incident. It was always done by the opposing side. After which, usually

21 we would complain to the observers or UNPROFOR soldiers who were on our

22 territory.

23 Q. When you say that usually you would complain to the observers of

24 the United Nations who were on your territory, in relation to the

25 violations of what I've understood have been cease-fires, these violations

Page 18945

1 were done by the enemy -- can you tell us, these United Nations observers,

2 since when were they in the area of Poljine, if they were there? If you

3 can, can you please tell us the time and the exact location.

4 A. I don't know exactly what the mission was called, whether they

5 were United Nations observers, or monitors, or whether they were UNPROFOR

6 officers. I don't know. They were there since I was there in that area.

7 At first they were there temporarily. That is, they would come. I think

8 they had a wider area; they were accommodated in Rajlovac, I believe. And

9 then they had their permanent quarters there.

10 Q. Can you tell us, when you say that you would deliver protests to

11 them, can you first tell us what was your cooperation with the UN

12 observers.

13 A. As far as I know -- I don't know what the command's cooperation

14 was. As far as I know, cooperation was good, because on several

15 occasions, on more than one occasions, I was present at these

16 negotiations, at these discussions because I know the English language.

17 Q. When you spoke -- when you were there, because you knew English,

18 as you say, when you were there with the observers, at any time during

19 these discussions, were you ever given a protest in the sense that you,

20 from your positions, were firing on some civilian targets, civilian

21 facilities in the city?

22 A. During the period while I was there in the unit, we never ever

23 received a protest that -- from our positions anything was fired in order

24 to provoke an incident or that these officers would know about, these

25 observers would know about.

Page 18946

1 Q. When you tell us that you opened fire once enemy mortars fired

2 towards your positions from the positions that you've marked as being

3 mortar positions of the enemy, can you tell us, how did you know and how

4 frequently did you respond to the fire coming from enemy mortars?

5 A. The information that I had about the positions, this was the

6 information that came through intelligence channels, that is, that I would

7 receive the locations that were indicated marked on the map. Of course, I

8 couldn't see anything from anywhere. From those positions, I couldn't see

9 that fire was opened from those positions.

10 I'm sorry, what was the second part of your question?

11 Q. My question was: How did you know?

12 A. Well, I told you. I told you that I received intelligence

13 operative information. Somebody else did it. Or from other positions

14 controlled by Serb forces, or it would be the observation service which

15 existed -- the monitoring service which existed in our brigade.

16 Q. How frequently? How frequently, in your opinion, during this

17 period - that is, from September 1992 - when you say you were in charge of

18 the mortars, until September 1993 -- how frequently was it that it was

19 from your positions there was firing in the direction of the positions?

20 That is, how frequent was the firing from enemy positions, enemy mortar

21 positions?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

23 MR. STAMP: I think I've already heard the question, how

24 frequently, quite a few times. However, the main thrust of my objection

25 is perhaps it could be indicated where he said that he was in charge of

Page 18947

1 the mortars.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I understood that to be not that he was in control

3 but that he was one of the crew in charge of the mortars.

4 Is that a correct understanding, Ms. Pilipovic?

5 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The witness was

6 a member of the crew in charge of 82-millimetre mortar. That's how I

7 understood the witness's answer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Understood in this sense, please answer the

9 question.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was issued a mortar, one mortar.

11 And on that position, there were three mortars. So that is the

12 clarification.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Can you answer: How frequently, from your positions, with your

15 mortar, how frequently did you respond to the enemy mortar fire? Can you

16 tell us, in this period from September 1992 until --

17 A. Well, I have to say here, throughout this period, while I was

18 there, there was the basic order -- the main order was the defence -- the

19 decisive defence. So this was only to be -- there was fire to be done

20 only in situations that was absolutely necessary -- where this was deemed

21 to be absolutely necessary. There was a shortage of ammunition. There

22 was simply not ammunition to even respond every time. For instance, as

23 this would be demanded by military rules. So we didn't even respond every

24 time when there were all kinds of provocations.

25 For instance, if there were information -- if there was

Page 18948

1 information that came from the front line, from the first line or the

2 front that they were being fired on.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, because we've heard

4 the answer of the witness, I think that it is time for a break.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until twenty minutes past 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp.

9 MR. STAMP: If it pleases you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Before

10 we proceed with the examination-in-chief, may I indicate to the Court that

11 the information in respect to one of the Defence witnesses - and that is

12 Mr. Gray - which we received for the first time this morning, has to some

13 degree caused us to have to make some quick adjustments to our

14 preparations, since we hear now that he's going to be coming next week.

15 And we are doing whatever is necessary not to disrupt the proceedings.

16 However, to avoid further difficulties on the Prosecution side, I

17 respectfully ask if it could be indicated to us as soon as it is known the

18 status in respect to the contacts with the three other witnesses that the

19 Defence had asked to be located and subpoenaed, and also as to whether or

20 not they are available, if they will come, and when.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Would you please -- perhaps

22 it's better not to communicate this in open court at this very moment,

23 because it's part of the preparation, and since the Chamber -- at least

24 the supporting staff tried to contribute to the results, I'm certain that

25 the Defence will update the Prosecution perhaps during the next break

Page 18949

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Page 18950

1 already. Yes.

2 MR. STAMP: Very well. I was about to suggest --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

4 MR. STAMP: But we could have discussions in the next break and

5 see where we go from there. Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then I indicated on your request, Mr. Piletta-Zanin,

7 that a -- the Chamber had given it some thought -- no. Perhaps first I'll

8 turn into private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 18951

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness has been scheduled for

12 two hours. May I take it that until the next break that if we're able

13 to -- because until now it's a little bit over three quarters of an hour

14 that you've used. So could we try to finish the examination-in-chief and

15 then have a break so that the witness could then be cross-examined by the

16 Prosecution.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asked whether the order of the appearance of

20 the expert witnesses would still be starting with Professor Cavoski then

21 Mr. Kunjadic and then Dunjic? Is that still the order? Yes. Because

22 then the interpreters should be provided with a copy of the report so that

23 they are able to follow it, especially when it becomes complicated.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. To begin

Page 18952

1 with, to answer to your first question, yes, of course you can do that.

2 And now I will move on to the examination.

3 Examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. I would like to go back to what you told us today at the beginning

7 of your testimony. You spoke about the -- about joint guards. You spoke

8 about the fact that in the very beginning, before the war broke out, you

9 had, you told us, joint guards. Do you remember that?

10 A. Of course.

11 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to tell us in some more detail what it

12 was about. Can you tell us, what were those guards? How were these

13 guards organised? Were there other Serbs who took part in that, or

14 perhaps were there -- perhaps there were some other ethnicities involved,

15 and so on and so forth?

16 MR. STAMP: Objection. Not relevant to the issues before the

17 Court. Certainly not at this stage.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I answer, Mr. President?

19 Perhaps the witness could remove his headset so that we can gain

20 time.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm speaking French,

23 Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: He could see something on the screen. I don't know

25 whether he speaks any French.

Page 18953

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us whether you -- do you speak

3 or understand any French?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. None.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then may the screen be changed and -- yes.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, why is

7 this question relevant? The Prosecution has for a long time been talking

8 to us about the existence of a plan, the objective of which was to

9 eradicate the whole Muslim population from the city of Sarajevo. Not only

10 the plan -- the plan which was very well organised politically and which

11 spoke about the racial partitioning before the conflict. However, if

12 there exist the joint guards, which were multi-racial, multi-ethnic

13 involving Serbs and others, it would be good to know whether there were

14 such joint guards and how did they come to pass, because that denies the

15 existence of any plan called racists.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... In this

17 respect. Let's at the same time try to -- to avoid repetitive evidence.

18 During the first hour we heard a lot about the cease-fire was also

19 violated by the other party. Well, that was not for the first time that

20 this evidence was presented. We heard a lot of evidence on people

21 standing guard. But if you would then perhaps specifically deal with the

22 aspects you just mentioned, that's fine.

23 And Mr. Stamp, may I ask you: To some extent the Defence is free

24 to use its time as indicated in the way it deems fit to use its time. At

25 the same time, discussions on relevance sometimes take more time. And as

Page 18954

1 you know, this is not a jury trial, but we are professional Judges. And

2 if sometime some irrelevant aspects would appear, the Chamber would

3 certainly be able to keep an eye on it.

4 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President. As it pleases you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well.

7 Q. Witness -- witness, can you see the screen?

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I believe it would be good if

9 the witness could see it for purely spelling reasons.

10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first wait until the part discussed has

11 disappeared from the screen, and then of course the witness is fully --

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Oh, excuse me. I apologise.

13 Q. Witness, will you answer this question: What can you tell us

14 about the inter-racial community, that is, the multi-ethnic composition of

15 these guards?

16 A. In early March, after the members of the Serb wedding party were

17 killed, the tension began to mount. Barricades were put up around the

18 city. And in our neighbourhood, a community meeting was held between more

19 prominent Muslims and Serbs, and it was decided that on our street, on

20 Panjina Kula, joint guards should be mounted involving one Muslim -- one

21 Serb and one Muslim. These guards were in effect for about a month, that

22 is, from the beginning of the month of April when -- or rather, until the

23 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was proclaimed. Then the Muslims set

24 up their barricade at the end of this street where they lived ethnically,

25 that is, where only Muslims lived. And in this part where there were

Page 18955

1 mixed people, that is, both Serbs and Muslims, the guards were not

2 organised to patrol. We stood at two points, one Serb and one Muslim, and

3 that was throughout the night for hours. That is, we had two shifts. So

4 these guards now functioned for about ten days, because at that time the

5 fighting was already gaining momentum in other parts of the city. And

6 first we started receiving from Muslims answers, "Well, you know, it's

7 difficult to keep on eye on who's coming here." They simply wanted to say

8 that they were losing control over the type of organisation which existed

9 at the time. So that -- so that in early May, when all these things with

10 the army happened, simply -- although, we were the only ones who were

11 performing control over everything in that area -- first small formations

12 began to come there in cars.

13 In the beginning, they were introducing -- they said that they

14 were reserve police force, but in their area the reserve police force was

15 ethnically pure, that is, Muslim. And we of course complained. We said,

16 "No, you can't do it, that is not our understanding." But they said, "We

17 cannot simply under control any longer." And the situation became

18 impossible for continuing because the Muslims came to our houses and at

19 some point they wanted to start writing down the names of those living in

20 houses and the like, which all told us only one thing.

21 Q. Thank you. Very well. Thank you. You told us, witness, also

22 that your neighbours told you to leave, advised you to leave because

23 they -- your safety could not be guaranteed any longer. And you spoke

24 about Knezevic houses. You told us there were five such houses which

25 belonged to the extended Knezevic family. Can you tell us, first, what

Page 18956

1 has become of those houses? And two, when?

2 A. After -- we withdrew, or rather, we moved house some 500 metres

3 away to the -- our neighbour's house, and that is where we were. And

4 after what happened and the attack on Pofalici -- as a matter of fact,

5 from the areas from which the Serbs had withdrawn, as in our case, the

6 houses were burnt down. In our case, fire was put to them, even though

7 there were 15 Serb houses, only the houses of the Knezevic family were put

8 fire to, and I guess that the reason for this was that we were indigenous

9 population, that we've lived in that area for a very long time -- or

10 rather, the wider area in which we lived, used to belong to my family.

11 Until the 1970s, when the state nationalised this land and when they

12 started building other houses on the nationalised land. And we guessed

13 that the Muslims could possibly or presumably think that if they set on

14 fire those houses of those who would be the first to come back, then

15 others would see no reason to stay in that area either.

16 Q. Thank you. You are telling us about burnt houses. Can you tell

17 us, how did that happen? Was it by accident? Was it arson? What do you

18 know about that precisely? Some detail.

19 A. On the 20th of June, 1992, from those positions which were

20 relatively near our houses, first our neighbour saw our house in flames

21 and then my relatives' house, which was next to ours, and that was right

22 there. Now, of course, I cannot say who did that; although, of course, I

23 can make some educated guesses. But towards the end of June of that same

24 year, some kind of conversation -- although, I mean -- some people

25 remained captive on the Serb side so that that delegation of Muslims from

Page 18957

1 the street came there for exchange, of course. And among others, there

2 was an acquaintance of ours who then named to my father the person who had

3 set our house on fire.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness -- no, I'm withdrawing what I wanted to say.

5 The person who did that, to your knowledge, was that person from

6 the army, from an armed formation? Or was that a civilian or what?

7 A. The person who was named by that other man was a kind of a

8 commander in that area.

9 Q. A civilian or military?

10 A. When we say "commander," then we always mean military.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps it

13 would be useful to hear that name, and the Prosecution intends to start

14 perhaps the prosecution of other persons.

15 Q. Could you give us that name? Would you be ready to give us that

16 name if we were protected? Would you give us this name? Would you mind

17 doing that?

18 A. Listen, my mother's got enough troubles in Sarajevo with regard to

19 her property.

20 Q. I'm changing the subject.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's improper to suggest that if the witness mentions

22 a name, that this could result in prosecutions against that person. This

23 would -- this is at the same time asking and at the same time -- at the

24 same time giving reasons for hesitation on the part of the witness, which

25 is not proper to do. Please proceed.

Page 18958

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies. Thank you.

2 I'll change the subject. No. I'll change the subject.

3 Q. And I'd like us now to focus, witness, on the protests, or rather,

4 their absence that you mentioned with regard to what my colleague said.

5 You spoke to us about the presence of UN officers, but you did not tell us

6 who were they. I'd like to know how often did you communicate with them,

7 whoever they might be, whether they be military observers or people from

8 the UNPROFOR.

9 A. Personally, I communicated with them on about ten or so occasions.

10 For instance, when they would leave, they would come to say goodbye. And

11 other times when we lodged those protests with them. And for instance,

12 once I communicated with them at the time when we were repairing -- what

13 do you call them? Oh, yes, the transmission lines.

14 Q. Very well. When they came and when you met them on those dozen or

15 so occasions that you indicated to us, were you able to see that, for

16 instance, the contact was bad or so because such-and-such protest was not

17 followed upon or I don't know what, or were these contacts always good?

18 A. Well, these contacts, this communication was always very correct.

19 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like us to go back to what you said a moment

20 ago, and you spoke about an attack on Pofalici. And I'd like you to tell

21 us a little bit more about it, that is, when did this attack take place?

22 Where did it come from? That is, from which area did it come, and what

23 happened? In two words, please.

24 A. I cannot tell you exactly what happened. What I know is that in

25 that attack my aunt and my uncle were killed. That is what I know. That

Page 18959

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Page 18960

1 attack happened, I suppose, from Donji Pofalici against Gornji Pofalici,

2 where Serbs lived. And a large number of Serbs were killed. Then there

3 were have many wounded. My aunt was wounded, for instance. And she

4 succumbed to those wounds in the hospital.

5 Also, a number of Serb houses were set on fire during that attack.

6 That is what I know.

7 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I need something more precise.

8 Your aunt -- or your uncle, were they activity involved with the army, or

9 were they simply civilians? What can you tell us about that?

10 A. She was a civilian, and my uncle too.

11 Q. Thank you. Thank you. What kind of wounds -- or perhaps what

12 kind of weapons inflicted those wounds? What kind of weapon inflicted

13 those wounds -- inflicted those injuries which -- or, rather, what type of

14 weapons were used to inflict injuries and subsequently the death of your

15 relatives?

16 A. I really do not know that. It was only after the war that my

17 relatives managed to exhume first my uncle's body, who had been buried

18 somewhere else, by the cemetery, and then my aunt, who had been buried in

19 the Lav cemetery, which is the cemetery below the clinical centre, that is

20 what I know. I don't know anything about the nature of injuries.

21 Q. But did they die as a result of war?

22 A. Yes, of course. Of course.

23 Q. Thank you. Witness, now I'd like us to touch upon the technical

24 matters concerning the weapons. You spoke to us about the opening of fire

25 in response to the fire coming from the other side. Did you have any

Page 18961

1 instructions coming down the chain of command, that is, not to use weapons

2 except to respond to the fire? And if so, did these instructions reach

3 you orally or were they in writing?

4 A. I've already said that. The chief order was the defence as a last

5 resort, that is, defence only where lives of our men or other people were

6 in serious threat. We -- or rather, I then acted only when receiving an

7 order to do that, and such orders at first arrived orally. In the early

8 days we had a radio station. Later on, telephone communication was

9 established. And from time to time, Mr. Medic issued orders personally.

10 But that was when the situation had deteriorated somewhat.

11 Q. You tell us, witness, that in the early days you were -- you were

12 not -- you were not an artillery man. You were just with the infantry.

13 Do you remember that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. When you were just a foot soldier, what kind of weapon did you

16 have?

17 A. I had a semi-automatic rifle.

18 Q. And as such, did you also, when you were a simple infantry man,

19 did you receive the instructions concerning your weapon and the opening of

20 fire? In other words, did this come down the chain of command? Were

21 there orders to respond or not to respond in one way or the other? What

22 can you tell us about that?

23 A. Well, the order was to return the fire. And one of the orders,

24 which was a standing order, that is, to which we always had to pay

25 attention to, was that in case of a cease-fire, the conclusion of a

Page 18962

1 cease-fire, not to open fire first but to first say -- or rather, to

2 inform the observers about it. And after they had been told about it and

3 if the situation was really difficult, to only then return the fire.

4 Q. Thank you. Witness, to open fire of course involves certain

5 risks. Were there certain instructions issued concerning civilians? That

6 is, concerning the conduct that you were to observe in relation to this

7 problem, the problem of the existence of civilians?

8 A. There was the order never to open fire on civilians. That is, in

9 no case were we to open fire on civilians. While we were on our mortar

10 positions, we had been issued a warning which had to do with the Geneva

11 Convention. I really cannot tell you much about the Geneva Convention as

12 a convention, but we were drawn attention to humane warfare, which

13 excludes any possibility of targeting civilians. That is something that

14 was always present.

15 Q. Thank you. I am taking up your answer once again because you are

16 telling me about the time when you were serving, when you were managing

17 the mortar. That is what I read from the transcript. But does your

18 answer also apply to the -- to the previous period, that is, the time when

19 you were still just a plain foot soldier, a plain infantry man? Did you

20 understand my question?

21 A. Sure. But at that time we didn't have -- didn't have that order

22 in writing, which we later had.

23 Q. And if I understand well, the distinction is that you had this

24 order in writing at the time when you operated the mortar but this order

25 was merely oral at a time when you were just a foot soldier. Is that it?

Page 18963

1 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that is the basic difference.

2 Q. Thank you. And with regard to this oral instruction, would it be

3 to your understanding what at times is called a standing order, that is, a

4 permanent order?

5 A. Yes, it was a standing order. But now and then people from the

6 command would come and repeat it to men. I don't know why they did it,

7 but it happened.

8 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I'd like us now to go back to the issue of

9 mortars. You told us that you were issued with an 82-millimetre mortar,

10 that is, that you handled 82-millimetre mortars. What can you tell us,

11 witness, about the mortars used by the adversary forces? And I'm seeking

12 technical precision in that respect.

13 A. According to the shrapnel fragments that we found, they had

14 60-millimetre mortars and mortars which use 82 or more millimetres. One

15 could not say that -- or rather, it is the same kind of weapon which is

16 used by different armies. For instance, the Yugoslav People's Army used

17 82-millimetre mortars; others use 81-millimetre mortars. So I cannot

18 really tell you which one of these mortars was involved.

19 Q. Very well. Thank you. Did you -- on your positions could you

20 there see craters of 120 millimetres, for instance?

21 A. No, not from our firing positions. But in Radava, where I lived

22 during the war -- or rather, above Radava was a road which connected

23 Ilidza and Pale, and that area was shelled quite often. So we found there

24 fragments, of course in places where those shells fell. And I saw with my

25 own eyes a whole, unexploded shell, which looked very strange. We did not

Page 18964

1 touch it because we couldn't really understand it. There was a fuse

2 missing, and that was very odd indeed. That is, it simply could not go

3 off.

4 Q. I have to interrupt you here. I have to interrupt you. What I

5 want to know, witness, at the moment is: Craters that you perhaps saw.

6 So my question is: Could you -- did you see craters which in -- on hard

7 soil, say, on concrete or in asphalt or in some -- on some similar

8 surface? Yes or no?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. And when you saw that, with your own eyes, witness,

11 were you able to see if a shell from -- which exploded, could such a shell

12 pierce this hard surface? And I'm talking, for instance, of the whole

13 asphalt layer. I mean, go through it.

14 A. A mortar shell? No. Simply, it explodes.

15 Q. I'm going to stop you here. Since you say no, could you please

16 tell me what happens if a shell hitting the surface explodes? Could you

17 give us a brief description of what we can find following the explosion.

18 A. The shell explodes. Depending on whether it hit a hard surface or

19 a soft surface, then depending on the angle on which it's fallen. Then

20 there's shrapnel flying around. It depends how the shrapnel will go, how

21 far it will go from the impact. But that's the whole point of a mortar

22 shell, that when a mortar shell explodes, there's as many -- there should

23 be as many pieces of shrapnel as possible because that is a -- this kind

24 of weapon, that the shrapnel would disperse as far away as possible and

25 then obviously hit during that explosion.

Page 18965

1 Q. Thank you. How does a crater appear to an observer who would look

2 at it, who would be observing it? Such a crater, what does it look like?

3 A. Well, it's not a large crater. A shell cannot -- a mortar shell

4 cannot make a large crater. It would be about 30 centimetres probably,

5 and it will be quite shallow.

6 Q. I'm going to stop you. Thank you. But now, in relation to the

7 depth, the depth of the crater on an asphalt surface, what is the depth of

8 the damage done to the surface?

9 A. Well, I don't know how thick the asphalt layer is, but it never

10 goes through the asphalt. It doesn't go through the asphalt.

11 Q. Thank you very much. Do you know anything about - that happens as

12 a general rule - what happens with the stabiliser, that is, the tail fins

13 of the shell once the shell has exploded?

14 A. The stabiliser either ends up where the main crater is, or

15 sometimes even because of the reaction, sometimes it even goes back. It

16 falls off.

17 Q. Thank you. Witness, you also spoke to us about the problem of

18 ammunition. You told us that you would not be firing very frequently

19 because you were economising ammunition. Do you recall your answer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. This answer was given by you when you were telling us

22 about mortars, and I'm going to ask you the same question in relation to

23 your career as an infantry soldier, that is, the questions in relation to

24 economising ammunition for infantry soldiers.

25 A. The order was always to fire only if the infantry soldier was at

Page 18966

1 risk. So if -- only if you are fired at, then you fire back. In other

2 situations, it was simply not allowed to fire. And people accepted this

3 very rapidly.

4 Q. Thank you very much. I'm going to now come back to the question

5 of heavy weapons. You told us about the presence of tanks earlier, and

6 you told us about the presence of a quasi-tank. As far as I've

7 understood, that is, a vehicle that was mounted on a base and that it had

8 a smaller calibre field gun than that of a tank. And my question in

9 relation to this is now to do with weapons that were mobile, that were

10 able to carry mortars. Do you know, while you were --

11 MR. STAMP: That is introducing an element into evidence of this

12 witness by telling the witness about something which he did not mention

13 when asked quite clearly about it more than once by the other learned

14 colleague for the Defence. That is very, very leading.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you are, I think, the French

16 word would be almost like a "souffleur" who tells the people on stage what

17 will be their next line. We heard a lot of evidence in this respect, and

18 I think I've warned you several times that since the effects of such

19 leading questions cannot be undone, would you please move to your next

20 subject.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Very well. I have certainly been carried by the blast of the explosion to

23 be prompting -- thank you.

24 Q. Now, witness, if you knew or if you know about other weapons that

25 you may have forgotten about - and I'm now talking about heavy weapons - I

Page 18967

1 am not mentioning any names - but if you knew that there were other

2 weapons, apart from those mentioned, could you tell us and could you let

3 us know? Not necessarily mobile. Any weapons, heavy weapons.

4 A. I forgot to say earlier that again, in the direction of Radava, on

5 that part of the road from the direction of Grdonj, which is very near my

6 house where I was born, there was some weapon that was active. It was

7 probably a recoilless gun. That happened on several occasions in the

8 direction of that road because it was within view range. And then from

9 the same direction on several occasions, what came were these -- there

10 were guided rockets, and it was according to the firing of the mortar from

11 the area around the Kosevo hospital, which would also include the area of

12 those two faculties, the architectural and the engineering faculty,

13 we -- because of where they came from, we assumed that the opposing side

14 had mobile mortars. Now, this assumption or supposition that we had, this

15 was confirmed by the opposing side themselves, because very frequently

16 they spoke about the success of their unit, and they called that unit

17 James. And this unit, in fact, represented or was a vehicle with a mortar

18 mounted on it. It was well known in the army. It wasn't anything

19 special, that is, that mortars of calibre lower than 60 and 82 can be

20 mounted on a vehicle. And you can actually fire them while they're

21 mounted on the vehicle. You don't have to take them off the vehicle

22 except you have to reinforce the actual vehicle. You can do that with

23 larger calibre mortars but then you have to put them -- attach them to

24 vehicle and then you have to tow them. So very frequently the enemy would

25 have to fire and then the firing would change location, so in one hour we

Page 18968

1 would have firing that we couldn't control. That is, it didn't come from

2 the same place. It was very confusing, in any case.

3 Q. Thank you. Witness, before we go to another subject, another line

4 of questioning, could you tell us whether the name of Seva means anything

5 to you, that is, the Seva group. Yes or no?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. What can you tell us briefly about this group, about

8 the Seva group?

9 A. According to what I know, it's a special unit, a kind of special

10 unit of the Muslim forces. And according to what I know, they fired on us

11 from the maternity building near Kromolj, and this information, we were

12 able to get that from the media, from the Muslim part of Sarajevo. This

13 is not something that they covered up. They boasted of firing from that

14 location onto Serb positions, that is, Chetnik positions as what they

15 called it.

16 Q. Thank you very much. When you spoke to us about a special unit,

17 how were they special? In what way were they special, these units -- or

18 this unit?

19 A. It was a special unit which, according to what they said, they

20 used snipers to fire. It was a sniper unit.

21 Q. Thank you. Witness, now I'd like to come back to another aspect

22 of our questions. From the position or the positions that you were at, if

23 you moved -- did you have from those positions, did you have an open view

24 of certain parts of the city?

25 A. Our positions were in the city.

Page 18969

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Page 18970

1 Q. Very well. However, that is not what I wanted to ask as a

2 question. One can be in the city and still have a view of the city and

3 you can be outside and not have a view or have a view. So for someone who

4 was not inside a trench, did you have a view of the city of the opponent?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. On this part that you had the view, were there any

7 facilities, that is, in terms of buildings, were there any buildings,

8 residential buildings, any monuments that -- any monuments of any symbolic

9 value, historic, cultural, religious, et cetera? For instance, mosques,

10 important monuments, and so on.

11 A. Well, in Sarajevo there are lots of mosques, and yes, there was a

12 mosque at Kobilja Glava certainly. And there were mosques in that part of

13 the town -- the city, in the centre, yes.

14 Q. Very well. Did you have a view on the minarets?

15 A. Of course.

16 Q. Thank you. Did you ever receive an instruction, an order from the

17 military hierarchy, to target or destroy such facilities?

18 A. I never received such an order.

19 Q. Thank you. Do you know if these facilities could have been used

20 by the other side, by the opposing army? And if so, to which -- with

21 which objective?

22 A. Of course they could have used them. I don't know whether they

23 did use them. They could have used them perhaps in order to provoke -- to

24 provoke an odium towards the Serbs in the media.

25 Q. Very well. Witness, you spoke to us earlier about an area which

Page 18971

1 we are particularly interested in, and that is the area of the faculty of

2 architecture and engineering faculty, and also the area of the hospital

3 for lung diseases, I believe. You mentioned it earlier. My question is

4 the following: First of all, do you know about other hospitals or other

5 hospital complexes that were in the area; yes or no?

6 A. In that area was the Kosevo Hospital, yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Witness, do you know if in the area of the Kosevo

8 Hospital, generally speaking, there were military operations that went on

9 in that area?

10 A. In the wider area of the hospital --

11 MR. STAMP: [Previous interpretation continues] ... To answer. It

12 is yet another leading question.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, we just heard an answer of

14 the witness where he said he did not know whether any facility was used by

15 the opposing party. But invited by you, he said how it could have been

16 used. Of course, it certainly could have been used. It's pure

17 speculation you're speaking here. You are leading the witness again. Why

18 not examine the witness in a proper way. Please proceed.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. Yes,

20 with pleasure.

21 Q. Witness, do you know -- no, I withdraw that. I'll rephrase it.

22 Earlier you spoke to us also about a cemetery that was located in

23 that area. Do you recall that?

24 A. There are two cemetaries. There is Humka [Realtime transcript

25 read in error "Humska"] in Pod Hrastovi, and the cemetery Lav near the

Page 18972

1 Kosevo Hospital -- the Kosevo stadium.

2 It's not Humska but Humka. It's a correction.

3 Q. Yes. Duly noted. Thank you.

4 I asked you a question in relation to this civilian nature and

5 their hypothetical targeting, their targeting, being taken as a target. I

6 don't have the Serb interpretation -- oh, it's coming back now. Yes. Did

7 you have the entire interpretation, sir?

8 A. I don't know whether I've had the entire interpretation.

9 Q. I will rephrase. Earlier, I have asked you about civilian

10 facilities in relation to hypothetical targets, that is, that these

11 civilian targets could have been hypothetically targeted -- these civilian

12 facilities could have been targets. That -- we spoke museums, mosques,

13 cultural monuments and so on. And you gave me an answer. Now, I'm going

14 to ask you the same question in relation to cemeteries, cemeteries as

15 such.

16 And secondly, and ceremonies that could have happened. What I

17 mean by "ceremonies," I meant funerals. No, I meant funerals. I meant

18 funerals, burials.

19 A. We never had an order to target cemeteries, nor did we ever fire

20 on cemeteries.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I can remind you that your last

23 question -- in approximately eight lines you reminded the witness of your

24 earlier question and that he answered that question, which is to suggest

25 that this question is similar or the answer would be similar. A proper

Page 18973

1 way of putting that question to the witness was: Were you ever -- did you

2 ever receive orders to fire at ceremonies such as funerals or burials?

3 That would have been the proper way of putting that question, instead of

4 reminding the witness of his earlier answers and saying that the question

5 is a similar one.

6 Please proceed. I'm asking your attention for it, because the way

7 you are putting questions to the witness might diminish even the value of

8 his testimony, and that's the last thing I think the Chamber would --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I understand

11 you, Mr. President. I thought that in French -- and I asked the question

12 just like you said, and I asked the question like that, as you suggested.

13 I do not think that the Defence will have any more questions, but I have

14 to confer, please.

15 [Defence counsel confer]

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, is the -- what I wanted to say is the

19 Prosecution ready to start the cross-examination of the witness?

20 MR. STAMP: Indeed we are, Mr. President. Thank you.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stamp:

23 Q. Mr. Knezevic, you said you met with UNPROFOR or UNMO officers

24 about 10 to 12 times? I am understanding you correctly?

25 A. Yes, about ten times. You can say that, yes.

Page 18974

1 Q. Did you attend these meetings in the capacity of an interpreter?

2 A. Some, yes.

3 Q. Who normally would be present at these meetings, apart from

4 yourself?

5 A. Mr. Krajisnik, as the brigade commander, and these officers and

6 their interpreter, if they had this person with them. But if they didn't,

7 that's when I came in.

8 Q. How many times did you have meetings with the UNPROFOR or UNMO

9 officers in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik?

10 A. Five or six times. I mean, Miro Krajisnik, just to be clear.

11 Q. Now, did you at any time ever hear of any protests from the UNMOs?

12 Not necessarily involving your unit, but any protest at all about firing

13 of weapons by the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

14 A. I'm speaking about the meetings where Mr. Krajisnik was present.

15 This was to do with the Kosevo Brigade.

16 Q. Did you at any of those meetings hear any complaints, protests, or

17 issues raised by the UNPROFOR members in respect to the firing of weapons

18 by the brigade?

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 Q. I think the answer was no, but I'm not seeing it on the record.

21 Neither do I hear the interpretation.

22 Perhaps you could answer it a bit louder, please.

23 A. No.

24 Q. What were these five or so meetings in respect to?

25 A. I said on several occasions our commander filed a protest, and on

Page 18975

1 two occasions we followed the observers. You understand, they were going

2 back home to their base.

3 Q. I'm talking about the five or six times when you met with UNPROFOR

4 or UNMO personnel in the presence of your brigade commander. You're

5 saying that -- well, let me repeat: What were the meetings when

6 Mr. Krajisnik, your brigade commander, was present with the UNPROFOR

7 members about? What were those meetings discussing? What were you

8 discussing - I beg your pardon - at those meetings?

9 A. Mr. Krajisnik called these meetings in order to protest about the

10 firing of the enemy side.

11 Q. Did UNMO or UNPROFOR personnel ever visit the area or the place

12 where your mortar unit was located?

13 A. Yes. Their position was nearby.

14 Q. How far from where your mortar unit was located was their

15 position?

16 A. Not further than 200 metres.

17 Q. And when did they establish -- well, before I say that. I think

18 you could tell me whether I'm correct or not. You said your mortar unit,

19 your squad or battery was in the same position between September 1992 and

20 September 1993; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And when did the UNMO or UNPROFOR personnel establish their

23 location, approximately 200 metres away from you?

24 A. That was in the course of the winter. I don't know whether it was

25 1992 or 1993.

Page 18976

1 Q. All right. Assuming you left there in September 1993, would it be

2 the winter of -- would it be the winter of 1992, going to 1993?

3 A. Yes, that was winter 1992/1993. That's the winter I meant.

4 Q. Yes. Yes. I'm just understanding you now. While you were at

5 that location, and that is where your mortar unit was positioned, could

6 you see into the part of the city which was under the control of the

7 opposing side?

8 A. No. The mortars are positioned so that they cannot be seen by the

9 opposing side.

10 Q. Could you see the mosque at Kobilja Glava?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know if the mosque at Kobilja Glava was destroyed or

13 damaged during the war?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No meaning it was not, or no meaning you don't know?

16 A. I said yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... Just for the

18 interpretation, what I heard from the witness is that he said "da," which

19 I understand to mean yes.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Perhaps the witness could be asked to answer a

21 little more audibly, please. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please speak a bit louder, because the

23 interpreters have really problems in hearing you.

24 And perhaps, Madam Usher, the microphones could be adjusted in

25 such a way that there would be less problems.

Page 18977

1 Please proceed, Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP:

3 Q. I take it you mean yes, you knew that it was damaged during the

4 war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what caused the damage?

7 A. No.

8 Q. While you were at your -- withdrawn.

9 Do you know whether or not it was repeatedly shelled by the VRS

10 between September 1992 to September 1993 and beyond?

11 A. I don't.

12 Q. Now, you said that during your time there was a shortage of

13 ammunition. Was this shortage of ammunition a rare condition or a

14 condition that the unit found itself in right through the one year or so

15 that you were posted with the mortar unit?

16 A. It wasn't the shortage really, but there was always fear of a

17 major attack during which we'd need large quantities of ammunition and we

18 didn't have those.

19 Q. All right. In this regard, did you have or did any member of your

20 mortar battery have a responsibility to record the usage of mortar rounds,

21 that is, how many times you fired and what you fired at and whether it was

22 hit? In other words, was there a log kept of your outgoing rounds?

23 A. Mr. Medic kept record at the battalion level. It was the

24 battalion which took care of these things.

25 Q. Well, Mr. Medic was not with your mortar battery at all times.

Page 18978

1 A. Nobody was with the mortar -- in the mortar unit at all times.

2 Q. So can I take it, therefore, that reports would have to be made to

3 him regularly about the firing of your mortar battery and the use of

4 ammunition?

5 A. Of course. And he also ordered to open fire. Of course he was

6 kept informed.

7 Q. Now, these reports that were made about your firing, were these

8 reports made in writing?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you have target lists, and that is lists of certain positions

11 that you could be asked to shell at any time?

12 A. I had targets drawn on the map, and then the order would come to

13 open fire on certain targets, rather, the coordinates which we had on the

14 map.

15 Q. Now, sometimes these targets were the enemy infantry at their

16 front lines; is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. Those front lines, can you say how far they were from the VRS

19 front lines? Do you know?

20 A. Well, the lines varied. At places it was 100 metres, at others

21 three, four hundred metres, but that would have been the biggest distance

22 in the area of responsibility of our brigade.

23 Q. And did you receive orders to fire at these varied areas of the

24 enemy front line, sometimes the lines at 400 metres, sometimes the lines

25 at 100 metres away?

Page 18979

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13 English transcripts.

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15

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21

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23

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25

Page 18980

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you also had various targets that you fired at within the city

3 of Sarajevo which you could not see.

4 A. We had targets only where the enemy artillery and infantry were.

5 When you say "inside the city," I don't know what it means.

6 Q. Were you -- were the targets that you had drawn on the map and the

7 coordinates that you got in respect to targets in any part of the urban

8 area of Sarajevo?

9 A. Within the urban area of Sarajevo were also our front lines.

10 Q. Yeah. But did you have any targets on your target list on the

11 maps or on the coordinates which were within the urban areas of Sarajevo?

12 Did you fire into that area at targets?

13 A. Well, I've shown you the positions of the mortars. For instance,

14 Pod Hrastovi, that is the position of mortars inside the urban area.

15 Q. Did you receive any orders to fire at what you -- well, what you

16 said you heard were mobile mortars?

17 A. No, no. You can't use mortars to target mobile targets, motorised

18 ones.

19 Q. Why?

20 A. Because a mortar projectile from the place it is launched to the

21 place it is targeting, it takes 45 seconds. In 45 seconds, a mortar

22 projectile can cover a very large distance.

23 Q. And there would be the possibility or the likelihood that by the

24 time the mortar projectile arrived, that motorised target would have moved

25 on. Is that what you are saying?

Page 18981

1 A. Yes, that's right.

2 Q. And it further follows from that, if I understand you correctly,

3 that there would be no military purpose in doing that.

4 A. No purpose to target a mobile target from a mortar. That's what I

5 said.

6 Q. Very well. Did your mortar units have spotters or observers or

7 perhaps I should just describe the functions. Did your mortar units have

8 persons, by whatever name they might be called, who were responsible for

9 observing the city to see where your rounds landed, to see if they were on

10 target?

11 A. Of course. Yes.

12 Q. Did you ever receive a report that your rounds had hit and caused

13 injury to civilians in the city?

14 A. Who could I get such a report from?

15 Q. Your observers.

16 A. Our observers were on our side. And whether we saw that some

17 target had been hit, no. And we never targeted civilians. How could we

18 hit them?

19 Q. I understand you're saying you never targeted civilians. When you

20 say "how could we hit them," you mean you could not hit them because you

21 never targeted them?

22 A. Yes, we never fired at civilians.

23 Q. How about in the area of your front lines? Did you at any time

24 hit your own troops by mistake, perhaps?

25 A. I don't think it ever happened.

Page 18982

1 Q. During your tenure --

2 MR. STAMP: I think the witness is indicating he's having problems

3 with something.

4 A. The interpretation wasn't getting it.

5 I said it never happened to me. And the interpretation is "I

6 don't think," which means that the interpretation is not accurate.

7 Q. Thanks for the clarification, witness. During --

8 JUDGE ORIE: If there's -- if there's any reason to assume that

9 the interpretation is not correct, you may address me, and we'll seek to

10 clarify the issue.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. During the time that you spent with your mortar unit -- withdrawn.

14 May I ask: You said earlier that at first you communicated with

15 your command by radio and later by telephone; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, by RUP 33, which is an army radio station.

17 Q. And later on by telephone. Was that a wireless telephone or a

18 wire telephone?

19 A. Our signalman had connected the trenches and the rear, the

20 artillery by wired telephone.

21 Q. Did you communicate with your battalion headquarters or with the

22 brigade headquarters?

23 A. We received our orders only from the battalion command or the

24 brigade, depending on where they were.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stamp, if you would find a suitable moment for a

Page 18983

1 break soon.

2 MR. STAMP: Before we go, one question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 MR. STAMP:

5 Q. Do you know whether your battalion headquarters or your brigade

6 headquarters had the facility to communicate directly with the corps

7 headquarters in Lukavica? Do you know?

8 A. I really don't.

9 MR. STAMP: Perhaps we could --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then adjourn until five minutes past

11 6.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, since you're on your feet, I take it you

15 want to address the Chamber.

16 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Mr. President, the Prosecution and Defence and Ms. Tournaye met

18 during the break -- in fact, for the duration of the break to -- in order

19 to work out the sequence of witnesses. We've succeeded in agreeing to the

20 sequence of witnesses for the balance of this week and for Monday next

21 week. Tuesday is a holiday. We've been unable to determine the witnesses

22 for Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Presumably Mr. Gray will be in there

23 somewhere.

24 I'm informed that the Defence cannot further discuss it tomorrow,

25 not available because of other commitments, which means that we're now

Page 18984

1 looking at Thursday before we know the identity of the witnesses next

2 week. And again, we should have been informed yesterday or last Friday of

3 the witnesses for next week, given the seven-day rule.

4 So, Mr. President, that's the situation. We do need to know who

5 will be called next week. So I'd be grateful for a direction to that

6 effect, to ensure that result.

7 I think it was helpful that the three parties met and talked about

8 it. But we do need to meet. Perhaps if the parties were required to meet

9 during the first session tomorrow, then we could make some more progress

10 then. But even then, it's mid-the week before, before we know who the

11 witnesses are for the following week. And these are significant

12 witnesses. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that it's your intention to

14 continue the meeting as soon as possible.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, nobody's

17 perfect. The Defence did not say that they would not agree to a meeting

18 tomorrow. What they say: If there is a meeting, then it will be without

19 me, which is not the same thing.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that there is a possibility

21 to meet tomorrow.

22 At what time, Ms. Pilipovic -- because I do understand that it is

23 you who would have to meet with the Prosecution. At what time could you

24 do that?

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, 1300 or perhaps half

Page 18985

1 past 12.00. We can meet then with our learned friends. But I'd like to

2 indicate immediately in view of the information that we have received from

3 your associates, Mr. Dunjic should be arriving on Monday, because Thursday

4 and Friday were planned for Mr. Kunjadic. I need to say straight away

5 that the Defence has heard from Mrs. Guskova, who was scheduled for

6 Monday, but I think it really did not depend on Defence that things

7 changed, that the schedule was upset. She can arrive on Saturday and she

8 can only be available now on Monday.

9 Now, I can talk to the doctor, if he's return to tomorrow,

10 according to the information, and then to come back on Sunday to be

11 available on Monday. So this is the information which perhaps we could

12 clear up with our learned friends tomorrow.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Chamber is not available at this very

14 moment to say exactly how the problem can be solved and who has what kind

15 of obligations to fulfil. And therefore, I think as far as the content is

16 concerned, the Chamber at this moment could not greatly assist you.

17 But I would say that the meeting, as far as I understand, your

18 discussions could not be finished. Would tomorrow at 1.00 be suitable?

19 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I understand from Ms. Tournaye and

20 there is already a meeting booked with the Defence and Ms. Tournaye and I

21 think the witness unit. She suggested 12.30, and so I also suggest 12.30.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ...

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have one moment of patience.

25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 18986

1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn presumably for not more than one or two

2 minutes.

3 --- Break taken at 6.16 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 6.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber was concerned about when the parties

6 could continue its meeting and try to find out when Ms. Tournaye would be

7 available. Unfortunately, we're not able to -- to establish when she

8 would be available.

9 May I ask the parties to make themselves available for

10 further -- yes, Mr. Ierace.

11 MR. IERACE: An alternative suggestion, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. IERACE: Since she is meeting with the Defence and the witness

14 unit tomorrow at 1.00, perhaps we could be informed just before the

15 session commences tomorrow afternoon if there has been some further

16 progress on that. It may well be that the order will be settled at that

17 meeting.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be of any use to have a short meeting

19 just prior to that meeting with the Victims and Witnesses Unit? So let's

20 say at -- if the meeting would be at 1.00, then to meet at 12.30?

21 MR. IERACE: Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? Okay. Then we'll see whether Ms. Tournaye is

23 available at 12.30 and not only at 1.00 and see whether any progress can

24 be made then.

25 Then if there's nothing else, the witness may be brought into the

Page 18987

1 courtroom. And please, Mr. Stamp, proceed with the cross-examination.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Stamp.

4 MR. STAMP: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. You mentioned where some enemy positions and enemy military

6 assets, enemy heavy guns were located. Did you actually see these

7 positions or these heavy guns at these locations, or were these

8 intelligence reports that you received?

9 A. It was from intelligence sources.

10 Q. And apart from those locations which were marked on a map, were

11 you at other times given the coordination -- or the coordinates for any

12 other locations to fire at?

13 A. No, except the enemy trenches.

14 Q. At the time you fired, is it correct that you would not know

15 exactly what was present or happening in the target location?

16 A. I had information that those were military targets. Whether an

17 enemy mortar unit or the enemy front line, well, now, it varied from one

18 case to the other.

19 Q. But you did not know that -- this personally when you fired this

20 was information that you had.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In other words -- all right. Let me ask you. What would be the

23 point of repeatedly telling your mortar unit not to fire at civilians

24 where you could not see the place that you were targeting?

25 A. From the mortar position, you can never see the place you are

Page 18988

1 firing at. It is done upon orders.

2 Q. In other words, your superiors would order you to fire at an

3 unseen location. Or to put it this way, your superiors, your brigade

4 command or your battalion command, would give you orders to fire at

5 locations which the mortar unit itself could not see. So I am asking:

6 What would be the point of repeatedly telling the mortar unit not to

7 target civilians?

8 A. It means not to fire at any other target except those marked as

9 war objectives, or rather, as enemy targets.

10 Q. Am I to understand you correctly that your orders were only to

11 fire in circumstances where your side of the conflict was under attack and

12 where it was absolutely necessary to do so?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. During the period you were there, September 1992 to September

15 1993, were there any offensive operations carried out in the north of the

16 city by the corps, the Sarajevo Romanija Corps?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Am I to understand that in that period, your brigade or units of

19 the corps were never involved in any offensive operation to your

20 knowledge?

21 A. No, no offensive.

22 Q. Did your brigade have any other mortar or artillery assets apart

23 from your mortar battery?

24 A. I don't know that really.

25 Q. If I suggest to you that -- or -- withdrawn.

Page 18989

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 18990

1 I suggest to you that UNMOs were inhibited in moving around to

2 monitor artillery and mortar units in areas to the north of the city.

3 What would you say about that?

4 A. I don't know. In the area of our brigade, their movement was

5 never inhibited. It's a well-known fact.

6 MR. STAMP: Thank you very much, Your Honours, Mr. President. I

7 have nothing further.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to re-examine the witness,

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin or Ms. Pilipovic?

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, on page 60, line 24, according to what's

15 on my computer, line 24 - thank you - you said that it was never possible

16 to see the mortars by the other side. That is, the mortars are always

17 positioned in such a way that they cannot be seen. My question is the

18 following: And on the other side the mortars of the opponent, were they

19 also hidden in such a way that they could not be seen?

20 A. You're going to have to clarify. Whose mortars? Who couldn't

21 see?

22 Q. Page 60, line 24 you said that your mortars were positioned in

23 such a way that one could not see them. Now, on the other side, what do

24 you know about that? Those mortars of the other side, were they

25 positioned in the same way, that is, that they could never been seen or

Page 18991

1 else?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could first ask clarification as to what

3 the answer of the witness was. Because -- I'll read to the witness what

4 the question and what his answer was.

5 The question to you was -- Mr. Stamp said, "Yes. I'm just

6 understanding you now. While you were at that location --" and you were

7 referring to the location where you were in the winter of

8 1992/1993 -- "and that is where your mortar unit was positioned, could you

9 see into the part of the city which was under the control of the opposing

10 side?"

11 Your answer then was, "No. The mortars are positioned so that

12 they cannot be seen by the opposing side."

13 Did you then refer to the mortars of the opposing side, that is,

14 the BiH forces, or did you refer to the mortars of the -- on the Serbian

15 side, that could not be seen?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We couldn't see their mortars.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The positions of their mortars.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think this clarifies it, the

20 answer of the witness in that respect. Please proceed.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

22 Q. A little further on you indicated that you received in your orders

23 the map coordinates of your military targets. Do you recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. My question is the following: These coordinates, in

Page 18992

1 general, to what type of facility did they correspond? When we are

2 speaking about -- not about the line in the strictest sense. But when

3 you're talking about military targets scattered in the city, and more

4 particularly, were these targets on upper floors and so on? What can you

5 tell us about this?

6 MR. STAMP: That again is putting words into the witness's mouth.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm just opening the door,

8 Mr. President. I'm just opening the door. I'd like to know whether these

9 coordinates corresponded to what kind of facilities. I am not leading.

10 At least, I don't think I'm leading.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you're not only opening the door,

12 but you're even suggesting what would be behind the door.

13 Did you ever receive any information as to the target at what

14 level at the grid positions given to you, whether this would be ground

15 level or any other level, or was no distinction made?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Our targets were mortar positions

17 that are located on the ground.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Q. Witness, since you spoke of the targets on ground level. When

22 these targets are to be hit by an indirect hit, what is militarily

23 speaking the technique that has to be used, that has to be followed in

24 order to achieve this objective?

25 MR. STAMP: I object. The military technique in firing mortars

Page 18993

1 was never enquired to in chief -- in cross-examination.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if the witness

4 takes off his headphones and if his screen is off, then I can respond.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... And could --

6 Madam Usher, could you take care that the screen is not on the transcript.

7 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, this

9 stems very clearly from the cross-examination. Why is that? Because the

10 Prosecution asked what happened with the coordinates that were transmitted

11 by the command.

12 Now, the thesis of the Prosecution is to say in any case you had

13 the coordinates; therefore, you couldn't make a mistake since you had the

14 coordinates. But we are saying that there are always possibilities to

15 make a mistake, whether you have coordinates or not, and that's linked to

16 various factors. And what I would like to know is whether these people

17 who had the coordinates and who were supposed to fire in reality to those

18 coordinates -- however, they were faced with the possibilities of errors,

19 and this could have caused involuntary damages, and this could have

20 stemmed from the coordinates.

21 MR. STAMP: Whether --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp. But -- you speak English,

23 Mr. Stamp. That's -- let's -- let's just -- I will allow the Defence to

24 put the question to the witness. It has done so, so I will allow the

25 witness to answer that question. But I don't know whether the Chamber

Page 18994

1 could follow your full gymnastic exercise to come to the point -- yes.

2 That's a very friendly translation of what I said. Yes.

3 Could the witness please put his headphones on again.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

5 Unfortunately, I am not really good in gymnastics --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, with pleasure.

8 Q. Witness, what can you tell us, please, about the relationship that

9 could exist between the fact that you can have precise coordinates on a

10 map and the getting to the target, that is, the reality of reaching the

11 target in war circumstances, in a war situation? Did you understand the

12 question?

13 A. Yes. Theoretically speaking, the first four projectiles, they

14 would go towards the target. They would have to go within 50 metres of

15 the target. While, the fifth projectile should hit the target directly.

16 But once you fire around the target, practically speaking you are more or

17 less hitting the target. But all this is very relative, especially when

18 we're speaking about a mortar projectile. A lot depends on weather

19 conditions, whether there's wind, whether there's no wind. Particularly

20 in Sarajevo, it is a very specific situation because it's a valley. It's

21 a ravine. So if you fire a projectile, you have one set of conditions at

22 the firing position and then on the other side where the projectile is

23 supposed to go. Particularly, the humidity and all other conditions and

24 all that can have an impact on where the projectile will actually land.

25 Q. Thank you, witness. I'm going to come back to other questions

Page 18995

1 that were raised by the Prosecution, on page 64 and from then on, which is

2 in relation to the famous mobile mortars.

3 First question, witness: First of all, as a general rule, the

4 defenders of your lines, were they in a position to specifically see these

5 mobile mortars when they were firing?

6 A. From certain positions our front line was able to see that area

7 where they moved about.

8 Q. You personally? You personally, from your positions, from your

9 mortar positions, were you able to see when they were firing; yes or no?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. Thank you. Witness, when these mortars are used, at the moment

12 when the firing happens, is the firing done from a static position or is

13 it done from a mobile position?

14 A. The vehicle is stationary when it is firing, and then it flees,

15 and then it goes away, it moves away.

16 Q. Thank you. Witness, in this respect, at the moment of the firing,

17 is there no difference in a sense of mobile nature of one "normal mortar,"

18 and the immobile mortar? Is there a difference between a mobile mortar

19 and a normal mortar?

20 A. In the system of firing, there is no difference at all.

21 Q. Thank you. When the fire is opened from a battery of mortars, no

22 matter what they are, does this ask for a response logically speaking,

23 from a point of view of military technique? And if so, which one?

24 MR. STAMP: I cannot -- perhaps I could be advised, see how that

25 arises again. If there are restrictions on re-examination, I think

Page 18996

1 counsel should abide by those restrictions. There is always a danger that

2 counsel uses re-examination to open new areas, and we are deprived from

3 exploring those new areas. It goes without any check or balance.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, your question is about firing from

5 mortars in general, not mobile or immobile, everything.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have two

7 interpretations. I didn't hear anything. I'm sorry. Could you please

8 repeat.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your question was about firing from mortars in

10 general, mobile, immobile. How does this arise from cross-examination?

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, yes. I would

12 like to respond, but could, please, we have the same exercise with the

13 witness, if he can take off his --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you take your headphones off, please.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

16 Mr. President, it's very simple. The Prosecution wanted to say

17 earlier or to get the witness to say that this was nonsense to fire at a

18 mobile target such as mortar -- mobile mortars from the point of view of

19 military technique. Now, what I would like to witness to say, if this is

20 the truth, is the following: A mobile mortar is only firing when

21 stationary. When he opens fire and when you cannot see it, which is the

22 case, he cannot be distinguished from any other normal battery, mortar

23 battery. So a normal reflex would be to respond with fire. So that, of

24 course, would be -- we can see what the danger would be of such a mortar.

25 And this is the link between mobile and immobile, and that is the two

Page 18997

1 types of mortars.

2 JUDGE ORIE: The witness may respond to the question.

3 Could you please put your headphones on. Yes.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, when a battery fire is opened, whether -- no matter what

6 kind of mortar is in use, what kind of response is invited by the

7 opponent?

8 A. The equivalent, in any case.

9 Q. How do you know that this response has a name -- do you know if

10 there is a special name by which we call this?

11 A. I really cannot remember.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions for

15 you.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 You have been asked a lot of questions about the coordinates, the

19 targets, et cetera. I would like you to make the following exercise:

20 Let's suppose that you are in the field with your unit waiting -- waiting,

21 just waiting, for an order. How do you get the order?

22 A. I said at first the orders came by radio station and later on we

23 would have a telephone. The telephone would ring, and then the order

24 would be transmitted by someone from the command.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: How is the order? What do you get in that

Page 18998

1 order? Do you get the target, the grid references? What do you get?

2 A. If it is about a firing point that we have marked in, then the

3 order would be: Open fire according to the firing point, say, number 3,

4 with three or four projectiles, depending on the need.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So the order includes the number of shells.

6 If it is a different target -- let's suppose that you receive an order to

7 fire to a different place -- what do you do?

8 A. Usually such orders are not issued verbally, that is, on the

9 phone. But somebody would come and show us on the map what the target

10 was.

11 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: There were some orders in that sense.

12 A. Yes, yes. In case if there is an offensive or an attack, when

13 their forces would attack, of course.

14 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Once you received the order, what do you have

15 to do? Let's suppose that your last target was target 3 and then you

16 receive the order to target point number 4. What do you have to do?

17 A. Then what is done is that the mortar is adjusted according to the

18 angle and the direction. The targeting -- the sight has to be adjusted.

19 I cannot explain it now -- to correspond to the numbers that would

20 correspond to the coordinates, and then that's how you actually directed

21 the mortar according to the distance and the direction into which you want

22 to fire.

23 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Which is the possibility of making mistakes in

24 that case?

25 A. There is some but there exists --

Page 18999

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Page 19000

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat his answer, please.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could you please repeat your answer. The

3 interpreters didn't get it.

4 A. I don't know what the probability is, but it exists.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Were the mortars of your unit moved from time

6 to time?

7 A. They were not moved, and that's primarily because they never

8 managed to locate our positions. If they had managed to locate our

9 position, then we would have been forced to move our position.

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So from time to time the mortars were moved,

11 weren't they? No?

12 A. No, no, no. What I said: If they had managed to locate us, to

13 find us, then we would have been forced. I said "if." That means they

14 did not manage to find us, to locate us. So we didn't move.

15 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: How many charges did you use when firing? Do

16 you know what is a charge?

17 A. I do. Of course I do know. It depends on the target. It depends

18 on the distance of the target and our positions.

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Where were you on Christmas Eve 1992? I mean

20 on the 24th of December, Catholic Christmas Eve. Do you remember?

21 A. I really don't recall. That was 11 years ago.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: New Year's Eve 1992/1993?

23 A. Do you mean the international New Year's -- I mean, 31st? I

24 celebrated New Year's with my friends.

25 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Orthodox Christmas Eve, on the 7th January

Page 19001

1 1993?

2 A. The house of my grandmother, where I lived with my mother at that

3 time.

4 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi also has one or more questions for

7 you.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 [Interpretation] Witness, please, I'd like to ask you briefly

10 perhaps two brief questions. The first question: Do you know about the

11 idea or the reason behind the choice of your position, in terms of

12 tactics -- did you know why -- why did your unit choose -- or your

13 commander, why did he choose this position where you were to be your

14 position and why? What was your objective in having this position there

15 where you had it?

16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Mr. President, but I haven't text on.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you don't need the text on as such, but

18 of course we could ask the usher to ...

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need it because I don't know how

20 my words are being interpreted.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No. But Judge El Mahdi is speaking French, and we

22 are listening to his French. So it's only for the Prosecution that

23 receives interpretation. Please proceed.

24 A. The position was chosen because it was located on the side of the

25 hill which cannot be seen from the positions under the control of the

Page 19002

1 Muslim forces. And it's on the other slope, opposite slope, which is an

2 ideal position. It is the hardest possible position for those who are

3 targeting it. So when a mortar projectile fires, it falls at the same

4 angle under which it is fired. So because then the opposite side would

5 not be -- so that's the reason why the mortars were precisely located

6 there.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that you

8 were never the target by the other side because the opposing side never

9 managed to locate your position, and you added that that was normal, that

10 if at any point the opposing side would have found the mortar position,

11 then this position would have to change. Is that your testimony?

12 A. They could suppose where the position was, but they could never

13 hit it.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes. But I'm

15 thinking of something else. You did locate the location where the mortars

16 of the opposing side were, and you said that those positions were

17 targeted, fired on, by your unit. However, if they had stayed where they

18 were, would your firing, would it hit their targets and that's the reason

19 why you said in answering the Judge Nieto-Navia that it could happen that

20 you were firing on the same positions one or more times? And I'm talking

21 about the opposing side's position. So following your logic, from the

22 moment when the opposing side felt that it was uncovered, that it was

23 found, that it was located, they would change positions. So now I

24 understand that what you're saying is that the opposing side, however,

25 stayed put. So do you think that they were -- did you hit them? Do you

Page 19003

1 believe that you hit them with your mortar fire or that you didn't, that

2 you missed your target and that's the reason why you had to repeat your

3 attacks? What I mean is: What is your explanation? I cannot follow what

4 you're saying.

5 A. When I was talking about the position of their mortars, I said "in

6 the area." And when I'm saying "area," that means a wider space. They

7 probably could move -- they moved within that space, within that area.

8 When there is a response -- a firing response of a mortar, if they again

9 hit, they will get hit from the same distance so that they think -- so

10 that they make you think that you didn't discover their positions.

11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No. But you are saying that you

12 targeted them and you fired at predetermined positions where there were

13 mortars. Now, my question is simply: After your fires, two things could

14 happen. Either such a mortar has been destroyed or it hasn't been hit.

15 In either case, how does a position which has already been identified by

16 the adverse party continues there, continues in that same position,

17 continues in the same place? I don't know whether my question is clear,

18 or do you want me to reword it.

19 A. Try to understand what I'm saying, that is, the tactics to fire

20 from the same place again, if we return the fire. So that we would think

21 that we had missed. That is, they fire from the same place so that we

22 would think that we had missed and that we would stop thinking that that

23 was the target.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You mean you believe that you did

25 hit the mortars which were there and that they were bringing other mortars

Page 19004

1 but always to the same place? Is that it? Is that your testimony?

2 A. We were trying to hit them. Whether they brought in other

3 mortars, I really don't know.

4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

5 Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I would have a few questions for you as well, but it

7 would take too much time to do that today. And there is a chance that one

8 of the parties would put subsequently questions to you as well.

9 Therefore, I would -- I would like to tell you that we have to continue

10 tomorrow in the afternoon. It will not be for a very long time. I take

11 that it will not be more than 10, 15, perhaps 20 minutes.

12 I'd like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the

13 testimony as you have given it until now in this courtroom or you're still

14 about to give tomorrow.

15 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is the issue you wanted to raise to be dealt

16 with in the presence of the witness or ...?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. I'm very

18 sorry, but I think simply, unfortunately, I will be absent from here for

19 extra reasons, and one question which I wanted to ask and which arose from

20 Judge El Mahdi's questions. I do not know whether I'm allowed to do it

21 now. This is merely a clarification. Or should I pass -- transmit my

22 message to Mrs. Pilipovic?

23 JUDGE ORIE: I have to wait until tomorrow as well, so the Defence

24 also, unfortunately, has to wait until tomorrow and then can see whether

25 there are any further questions arising out of the questions of the Bench.

Page 19005

1 So if you would please pass that to Mrs. Pilipovic, then she certainly

2 will take care of that.

3 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

4 courtroom.

5 Meanwhile, I'll inform the parties that Ms. Tournaye is available

6 for a meeting tomorrow at 12.30.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until tomorrow, same courtroom,

9 quarter past 2.00.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

11 at 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

12 the 5th day of February, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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