1 Wednesday, 5 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Stanislav Galic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we continue the examination of the witness, I'm informed,

10 Mr. Ierace, that you'd like to address the Chamber.

11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President. This morning the

12 Prosecution and Defence met with Ms. Tournaye to discuss the sequence and

13 dates of expert witnesses and others. As a result of that meeting, an

14 order has been agreed and prospective dates established which take us to

15 and including the 4th of March.

16 However, there is an issue which the Prosecution seeks to raise.

17 The Prosecution has until recently worked on the basis that the time

18 sought by the Defence for examination-in-chief of expert witnesses would

19 be utilised by way of amplification of what appears in the reports and

20 would not go beyond that. As a result of recent correspondence from the

21 Defence, it appears that in respect at least of one expert - and that is

22 Professor Radinovic - the Defence had intended to tender through him

23 certain documents which are not in his report and by inference give

24 evidence on matters which are not in his report.

25 Mr. President, that being the case, the Prosecution wishes to make

1 clear that its estimates of cross-examination are based on the assumption

2 that the time taken in chief will be utilised exclusively to amplify

3 matters in the report. If the Defence goes beyond the contents of the

4 report, then to that extent the Prosecution seeks equal time, pursuant to

5 the usual Rule, and a 65 ter summary in respect of that additional

6 non-expert evidence, together with, of course, the usual seven days'

7 notice of exhibits -- additional exhibits to be tendered through that

8 witness. These matters will be covered in a short-form fashion in a

9 motion to be filed today, more specifically in relation to Dr. Radinovic.

10 Mr. President, to the extent that any additional evidence led in

11 chief is properly characterised as being of an expert nature, then the

12 Prosecution objects to such evidence because it would not comply to the

13 Rules pertaining to expert evidence within a particular field of

14 expertise. In other words, it should be in the report duly served.

15 Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider the matter, Mr. Ierace. It has

17 happened also in the Prosecution case that sometimes an expert has

18 testified as a witness. But this was under very special circumstances.

19 And the subject matter then was -- at least the factual basis of his

20 expert report. But perhaps we'd like to hear, perhaps not immediately,

21 but perhaps this afternoon from you, Ms. Pilipovic, what causes you to

22 introduce new factual evidence through an expert witness, factual evidence

23 that would not be in -- dealt with in the -- in the expert report. We'd

24 like to hear that from you first before further considering the matter.

25 But perhaps we -- either you do it now immediately. That's also a

1 possibility. But, of course, the Chamber is still very uncertain about

2 the type of material that you wanted to introduce as new factual elements.

3 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in its submission to

4 the Chamber and my learned friends, the Defence indicated that these are

5 documents which the Defence would like to show Mr. Radinovic as a military

6 expert which are not annexed to the expert report, and these are military

7 documents of the BH army which the Defence received from the Prosecution,

8 and the expert witness had the opportunity to familiarise himself with

9 them but did not quote them in his report. We are not challenging the

10 authenticity of these documents, but we think that it is in the interest

11 of justice to have a military expert explain several documents which is

12 not included in the report but has gone through such documents and that it

13 also would be useful to give us his interpretation of the content of these

14 documents. So these are not new documents. This is our position. I made

15 our submission yesterday in writing, and today at a meeting I suggested to

16 my learned colleague -- to my learned friend to possibly discuss these

17 documents -- which documents because -- will be shown because these

18 documents are both in the hands of the Prosecution and Defence. In other

19 words, these are not new military documents which are not in the

20 possession of both the Defence and the Prosecution. But no doubt you will

21 give us your opinion, although my learned friend, as he has said, will

22 also respond in writing and then perhaps I will have to make some

23 additional explanations.

24 In our submission, we also raised an issue which is of major

25 importance for the Defence, and that is whether every document that has

1 been annexed to Dr. Radinovic's document is automatically considered as

2 exhibit or do we have to tender every one of them separately, although

3 they're included with the -- with the expert's report, and I have also

4 indicated that matter in writing.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Ierace, may I just make a very short

6 comment.

7 I do understand that if the expert has been provided with certain

8 documents which he did not mention in his report, I can imagine that one

9 of the questions would be did you know the existence of the document? You

10 didn't use it, or you didn't at least mention it. Was there a specific

11 reason for that? I mean, what is not in an expert report could be part of

12 questioning as well.

13 But on the other hand, that, of course, should not result in

14 totally new grounds to be entered, a totally new area to be entered on the

15 basis of these document, because then it certainly would have had to be in

16 the initial report. So it's a bit difficult perhaps at this very moment

17 without knowing how many of these documents there are and what exactly the

18 type of questions will be, but perhaps further communication between the

19 parties could clarify this to some extent.

20 But Mr. Ierace, if you want to respond.

21 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. Very briefly. Disclosure has

22 got nothing to do with it. That's not the issue. I don't think it's a

23 matter for the discussion between the parties. I think it's important

24 that it be dealt with on the record because otherwise it may impact

25 adversely on the Prosecution --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 MR. IERACE: -- At a later stage.

3 Finally, Mr. President, might I inform you as I informed

4 Ms. Tournaye, that in relation to Professor Cavoski where we previously

5 indicated half an hour for cross-examination, as a result of some fresh

6 material that's come to our attention we seek to increase that to one and

7 a half hours and to compensate, take an hour off cross-examination time

8 for Milan Kunjadic. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In your proposal which have not yet been

10 decided upon by the Chamber, but we'll take that into consideration.

11 Ms. Pilipovic, today I got on my desk the appearance of next

12 Friday of Dr. Vilicic. But that's not valid, any more, I take it on the

13 basis of the new schedule you worked out. Yes.

14 Then I think it would be -- Ms. Pilipovic, yes.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No. No, not Dr. Vilicic,

16 Your Honour. I do not know which Friday you have in mind. Tomorrow?

17 JUDGE ORIE: The letter of the 4th of February. And I think

18 that's not --

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that's right. We made

20 a completely new schedule today, and I believe you have been informed

21 about it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... At this very

23 moment.

24 I think then it would be an appropriate moment to call the

25 witness -- to have the witness brought into the courtroom.

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Knezevic. May I first remind you

3 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you made at the

4 beginning of your testimony.

5 Having said this, I have a few questions for you.

6 WITNESS: SASA KNEZEVIC [Resumed]

7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 Questioned by the Court: [Continued]

9 JUDGE ORIE: You told us, and you used, as far as I remember, the

10 word "decisive defence." Could you explain to us what a decisive defence

11 is and in what way it differs from just a defence.

12 A. The decisive defence -- the decisive defence is a term which means

13 defensive tasks only. That is, the troops may never undertake any

14 offensive activities, and that would include the opening of fire before

15 the enemy. That is, if you're only defending yourself, only if you see

16 the movements of adversary troops, then you can react. But when it comes

17 to decisive defence, you open fire only when the enemy attacks you. And

18 that kind of defence also presumes holding the positions at all cost. So

19 this is the defence which does not include any form of retreat, which was

20 important for us since beyond the front line trenches there were women and

21 children who were beyond the front line.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you mean that in responding to an attack from the

23 opposite side that you would defend and in this defence gain some terrain?

24 A. No, no, no. Never. You don't advance. The decisive defence

25 means staying in the trenches, never abandoning the trenches -- or rather,

1 never retreating from the positions taken, either forward or backward.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was the decisive defence, are you aware of -- I

3 don't know whether you have knowledge of it. But that would be the

4 general line in the SRK or was that just in your unit that you would have

5 such a decisive defence operational?

6 A. What I know is that it was applied in our unit. I really wasn't

7 in -- I really couldn't know what was done in other units, in other

8 brigades of the corps. I simply had no way of coming by such information.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now tell me the difference between

10 defence -- because if you respond, if fire is opened at you, and if you

11 try to keep your positions, not moving forward, not moving backwards, many

12 people would call that a defence. What now is the difference between a

13 decisive defence and what many people would call defence?

14 A. Listen, I'll repeat. The decisive defence is neither launching a

15 counter-offensive nor a retreat. So there is no counter-attack nor

16 retreat, regardless of how things unfold on the battlefield.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May the witness be shown document D1453.

18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read paragraph 1 of that document.

20 And could perhaps the -- first the original be put on the ELMO. And

21 perhaps just under it, the translation of paragraph 1 so that everyone can

22 follow it.

23 So paragraph 1 on top of the ELMO, and then just under it the

24 English translation.

25 Yes. Perhaps if the original one should have moved up a tiny

1 little bit, upwards, even more, a bit more.

2 Have you read paragraph 1, witness?

3 General Galic, have you been able to recognise the document that

4 has been discussed before?

5 Could we then zoom in on the English translation of paragraph 1.

6 That's not paragraph 1. Paragraph 1 is just blow where the number "1"

7 appears. There. Yes.

8 Having read this, you see that the order for a decisive defence is

9 here combined with improving operative positions and even with liberation

10 and reaching important parts of the town apparently not at that moment

11 under the control of the Bosnian Serb army. Having read this, may I ask

12 you again if this would change anything in your answer as to what a

13 decisive defence might be, compared to a defence?

14 A. I've told you what the decisive defence meant in our unit. What

15 was meant by this order -- I mean, really, I don't know this document. I

16 see what it says here, but I know what we knew and what the order decisive

17 defence meant to us.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your answer.

19 The documents may be returned to the witness [sic].

20 Could then the witness be shown a document which would have number

21 C4.

22 Could it be put on the ELMO.

23 Could you please take the pointer, Mr. Knezevic. Look carefully

24 at this map. And point at the precise position of your mortar unit, where

25 it was located exactly.

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1 Could we perhaps zoom in on the part of the map the witness --

2 Yes. Could you please point at it as precise as possible.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please mark that position with a red

5 pen.

6 A. [In English] Do you want some number?

7 JUDGE ORIE: No. You may just put a cross there, a red cross.

8 The exact location of your mortar unit.

9 A. [Marks]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yesterday you told us that the confrontation

11 line from where you were -- well, could you please repeat how -- at what

12 distance the confrontation line were from your mortar position. No. You

13 said -- what distance? You gave us distances yesterday. You don't have

14 to point at the map at this very moment.

15 A. [Interpretation] About 1.000 metres, 1.000 metres.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was your first answer. And then later you

17 said 100 to 400 metres.

18 A. That is the distance between the two front lines, the front lines

19 of the two parties to the conflict.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you then tell us: If you said

21 1 kilometre, 1.000 metres, would that be to your side of the confrontation

22 line or would that be to the opposite side of the confrontation line?

23 A. I said 1.000 metres beyond the front line. And I meant our side,

24 of course.

25 JUDGE ORIE: You meant your side. So that would be 11 to 14

1 hundred metres from the other side of the confrontation line. Would that

2 be correct, correct testimony?

3 A. I have to explain this. Yes. If the line were straight. You

4 see, but we did not operate only in relation to a straight line. At times

5 our artillery position was more than 2 kilometres from our front lines,

6 because our line was not straight.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did the line change in all areas, or just in a

8 certain area?

9 A. Why, the line did not change at all sometime from June when we had

10 dug our trenches.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about June 1992?

12 A. Yes, yes. Yes, June.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you point at where exactly the military

14 observers were. Could you first point at it on the map.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put a cross there and the letters

17 "MO" for "military observer."

18 A. [Marks]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your explanation.

20 Were the observers there during the whole period you were a member

21 of this mortar crew?

22 A. Like this: They were stationed at Rajlovac. And as a matter of

23 fact, they came from time to time. For a while they merely visited at all

24 the artillery positions and then for a while they were there all the time.

25 I mean, in the -- in our brigade's area. But I really don't know whether

1 they were observers or UNPROFOR soldiers. I really don't know. But -- and

2 they were stationed there. But they did not live there, UNPROFOR

3 observers, they only had their position there. But they were quartered in

4 the houses of the locals in the village of Radava, the other observers.

5 JUDGE ORIE: In the village of what, you said?

6 A. In the village Radava, the one that I lived in too.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be shown Exhibit PC742.

8 Could the centre of the map be put on the ELMO.

9 Mr. Knezevic, you see that there's a spot indicated on the map

10 near the village of Radava, which is L12. Could that have been the

11 position where the UN people were stationed?

12 A. The UN members lived in private houses. They didn't live in just

13 one private house all the time. I think they paid something to some

14 people, and they would change these houses. I don't know whether they

15 were dissatisfied or why. So it's not impossible that they lived for a

16 certain period of time in this house, you know. But this isn't a position

17 from which they owned or a position from which they could have observed

18 anything in the village of Radava. Nothing can be observed in the village

19 of Radava as far as the front is concerned, especially not from this

20 position.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You say there was no observation post on the point

22 indicated by L11?

23 A. It couldn't have been here, at this site where it's drawn, or else

24 it hasn't been marked precisely.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did I understand your testimony well that you

1 said that at the point where the military observers were close to your

2 position, that they were not there on a permanent basis?

3 A. Yes, they were never there all day long.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were they there every day?

5 A. Yes, they came every day. When they were billeted in -- when they

6 were stationed in Radava then they came every day to that observation post

7 of theirs.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. During the full period of September 1992 until

9 September 1993, when you were at that position?

10 A. I'm really not sure whether it was throughout the entire period,

11 because for a certain period of time they were in Rajlovac and they

12 visited areas. But I'm not quite sure when they did this.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then my next question is about mortars being

14 fired. Yesterday you told us that when you fired your first shell, it

15 might, well, not immediately hit the target but could be 50 metres away

16 from what you intended to target. Is that a correct understanding of your

17 testimony?

18 A. Yes, those are the initial shots.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how many shells would you usually have to

20 fire until you would hit the target? Yesterday you said four. Was that

21 the normal number of shells you would have to fire in order to hit your

22 target?

23 A. I mentioned the figure four when I was speaking about the theory.

24 But when we had already marked our targets -- you know when you have a

25 designated target and then you fire at another target, you have certain

1 reference points, and then you can probably hit the target with the second

2 shell.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you responded to fire, how many shells would

4 you usually need? And on the basis of what information you would adjust

5 the mortar in order to hit the target you had in mind?

6 A. On the basis of the intelligence that we received from the

7 battalion.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But -- well, let's just assume you fire one

9 shell. Who would then tell you to fire the next one a bit further, a bit

10 nearer, a bit more to the east, a bit more to the west, and how much?

11 A. From Mr. Medic. He would give us these orders, and he received

12 information from someone.

13 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would that take between the first and

14 the second shell and then the next?

15 A. You mean how much time in order to get some feedback information?

16 JUDGE ORIE: If you first fire, and then how much time would you

17 need to get back the information you would need to adjust, and then how

18 much time would you then need to prepare for the next round to be fired?

19 A. Not more than three minutes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Getting back the information and preparing for the

21 next shell or ...?

22 A. For everything.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And how often did it happen that you hit the

24 target with the first shell?

25 A. When we fired at these mortar targets, we didn't know whether we

1 had hit the exact target. We didn't see their mortars under the trees.

2 We would stop firing if the enemy stopped firing. We had no reason to

3 fire when the enemy stopped firing. So I really don't know how to give

4 you a precise answer to that question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But how many shells would you fire? I mean,

6 you -- you would fire one, and you told us that you expected the mortar to

7 move to another place.

8 A. Whose mortar?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't hear your full answer translated. Could you

10 please repeat your answer.

11 A. Whose mortar are you referring to when you say "a mortar that was

12 moved"?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the mortar that fired at your positions, for

14 example.

15 A. We didn't wait for it to move. Our target was to neutralise enemy

16 fire.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you moved to where the fire came from; is

18 that ...?

19 A. We didn't move anywhere. I don't know what you mean when you say

20 "move."

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think I was not clear. No. You fired to where the

22 fire came from.

23 A. As far as enemy mortars are concerned, we fired at the targets we

24 were already aware of.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if a mobile mortar would fire at your

1 positions, what would you do then?

2 A. I already said that yesterday. We didn't fire -- we couldn't

3 return fire when they fired at us from mobile mortars because a mortar is

4 not such a weapon that enables one to fire at a mobile target.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Was it your instruction that whenever fire was

6 received from an unknown firing position from the other side that you

7 would not return fire?

8 A. We only fired when we were ordered to do so.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that was not my question. My question was

10 that when you received fire from a position not known to you as one of

11 the, I would say, fixed or well-known firing positions from the other

12 part, that you were instructed not to return fire to such an unknown

13 source of fire at the other side of the line?

14 A. Well, of course. How were we to return fire if we weren't aware

15 of the target, if we didn't know where the target was?

16 JUDGE ORIE: You say you could not fire at such a source of fire

17 at the other side of the lines?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether you got instructions to

20 refrain from returning fire under such circumstances.

21 A. Of course. Our instructions were to fire only when ordered to do

22 so. If they didn't order us to fire, then we didn't.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever receive an order to fire at a source of

24 fire at the other side of the confrontation line that was not one of the,

25 may I say, fixed or well-known firing positions but what might have been a

1 mobile mortar position or I must say a position of a mobile mortar?

2 A. We didn't receive such orders except in cases - and I can't

3 confirm or deny this - if the mortar which was firing from the area of the

4 bus 17 -- where the bus 17 turns around, only in these cases, because it

5 was possible for this to happen in that case. It was near -- it was close

6 to the tunnel.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you would say that apart from perhaps firing

8 at where bus 17 would turn, that from your unit never an order was given

9 to return fire to a source which might have been a mobile mortar and that

10 you never did so?

11 A. We never received such an order and we never did anything of that

12 kind.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then one question: If you were firing at, I

14 would say, well-known positions -- you mentioned yesterday 50 metres that

15 the first shell might land from the actual target. Would you consider

16 this 50 metres as your normal distance from a target, or would you say,

17 "Well, we did it very well when we got at the distance of only 50 metres,"

18 or would it be usually 200 or 300 metres? What would be -- in your unit,

19 what would be the performance in respect of the first shell approximately?

20 A. With respect to a well-known target, if there was -- if the shell

21 fell about 200 metres away, then that would mean that there was something

22 wrong with the mortar. This is something that doesn't happen if the

23 mortar is functioning correctly and efforts are made to ensure that the

24 weapon functions correctly.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's say, in how many per cent of the

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1 cases you would -- you would achieve a distance of not more than 50 metres

2 from your target?

3 A. In the case of well-known targets, the percentage would be very

4 high.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be 90, 95, 85, 98? A high is -- some people

6 think 60 is high; others might think 98 is high.

7 A. Well, let's say 90.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many shots you would, on an average, need

9 to hit your target in practice? You told us yesterday about theory, but

10 in practice on an average.

11 A. Usually we fired about a case. That would be four shells. And

12 then after that the enemy would stop firing. Our aim was to make sure

13 that fire ceased, but we usually didn't know whether we had hit the target

14 or not.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you usually would fire four shells?

16 A. Usually four, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answers. I have no further

18 questions to you.

19 Is there any need to ask questions on the basis of --

20 Yes. Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 Further examination by Ms. Pilipovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Knezevic, yesterday in response to a question

24 from Judge Nieto-Navia you said that in December, the new year and

25 Christmas -- in 1992/1993, you said you spent that period at home.

1 A. No. I said I was at home for Christmas and I celebrated the new

2 year with my friends on Pale. That's not at home. And in the first case

3 it wasn't at home either. It was my grandmother's home. I wasn't at

4 home.

5 Q. So that means that you were in the area of the positions of your

6 brigade.

7 A. No, no.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We missed that last answer. Could you please repeat

9 your last answer, Mr. Knezevic.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, now it appears in writing.

11 Yes, please proceed. I see that your answer was no.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Knezevic, yesterday you also said that you used various

14 charges. Do you remember that?

15 A. No, I didn't say that.

16 Q. In response to a question from Judge Nieto-Navia, you said that

17 you used various charges.

18 A. That's why I asked for me to be provided with the transcript. At

19 the time I didn't have the transcript on the screen. And the question I

20 was put was whether I knew what a charge was, and I found that very

21 strange. It was an odd question. That's what I heard through the

22 headphones, really.

23 Q. Can you tell us what a mortar charge is.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Ms. Pilipovic, the question was: How many

25 charges did you use when firing? And after that I asked: Well, do you

1 know what is a charge? That was the question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But there's no point in talking

3 about various forms of charges. The M74 mortar has six identical charges.

4 And depending on the distance of the target, which is determined by the

5 elevation of the barrel but also by the number of charges that are used.

6 This charge propels the shell.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Are you telling us about additional charges?

9 A. No. The M74 has six regular kinds of charges.

10 Q. Can you tell us anything about additional charges?

11 A. The M74 shell doesn't have any additional charges, or I didn't

12 have any, at least. The charges are identical. There are six identical

13 charges.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

16 questions.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Nieto-Navia has one question.

18 Questioned by the Court:

19 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I cannot follow you about the charges.

20 Yesterday you said, and today as well, that the number of charges depends

21 on the use you are giving to the shell. It depends on the distance and so

22 on. You have six charges. All the shells are fired with six charges or

23 sometimes one, two, three?

24 A. It depends on the distance of the target. And with regard to this

25 distance, you have to adapt the elevation of the barrel and also the

1 charge. You have to adapt it to the distance. The angle of the barrel

2 has to be as great as possible for certain distances -- for very great

3 distances, you use as many charges as possible. You can't use a lot of

4 charges if the distance is not great.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: So you use sometimes, let's say, two or three,

6 sometimes four, sometimes five, sometimes six charges.

7 A. Yes, between two and six.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

9 MR. STAMP: May I?

10 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you also one clarification. You said

11 between two and six. Did you ever use one charge?

12 A. No. That would have been too risky. One charge is used if the

13 mortar is very close to one's own lines. It's used for very short

14 distances.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would use not less than two charges.

16 A. At least two.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stamp.

18 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stamp:

19 Q. And when you say using two charges and not less than two, you're

20 speak about your own mortar battery having regard to how far your lines

21 were; is that right?

22 A. I'm speaking of my mortar. I was responsible for one mortar, not

23 for a battery.

24 Q. Very well. When you operate the mortar, you and the other

25 batteries were provided with tables and charts using -- which you can

1 calculate the appropriate number of charges, the appropriate elevation of

2 the barrel, and the appropriate sighting of the barrel, so you could

3 target with as much precision as possible. Is that so?

4 A. Of course. Without tables, it's not possible to fire from a

5 mortar.

6 Q. So at -- let's say hypothetically, at a barrel elevation of 40

7 degrees, if you use one charge, it would land at a certain distance. And

8 as you correspondingly increase the charges, the distance that the mortar

9 lands at or impacts at increases.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you can also use a table to -- the charts or tables to change

12 the distance using the same charge but by the elevation of the barrel.

13 A. You can. You have to, in fact.

14 Q. Indeed. And also, you use the charts to factor in changes in the

15 weather and other conditions, changes -- well, if there were changes in

16 the height, the altitude from which you fired, et cetera? When I say "et

17 cetera," you use the tables to factor in variations, to make calculations

18 in respect of firing the mortar.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think Mr. Stamp's

21 question doesn't arise from the questions put by the Chamber. And this is

22 the first time we have heard the subject of tables being discussed. I

23 think Mr. Stamp could have asked that question in the course of his

24 cross-examination.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber allowed Mr. Stamp to ask questions

1 about charts in relation to charges, which was specifically what you were

2 asked about.

3 But, Mr. Stamp, the weather conditions, which have not been dealt

4 with by the Chamber have been mentioned in chief by the witness. He said

5 that these variations also might influence. So, therefore, you could have

6 asked that in cross-examination. The objection is sustained.

7 MR. STAMP: Very well, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no further questions, then this

9 concludes your testimony in this court, Mr. Knezevic. We all know that

10 it's a long way to come to The Hague. We thank you very much for

11 answering questions not only from the parties but also from the Bench.

12 And I wish you have a safe trip home again.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, you may escort the witness out of the

15 courtroom.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you -- Madam Registrar, could you

18 please guide us through the documents.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1842, map mark by witness; Exhibit C4,

20 map marked by witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, the documents are

22 admitted into evidence.

23 Is the Defence ready to call its next witness? And perhaps I

24 should have asked the usher to bring him in right away.

25 MR. STAMP: May I be excused?

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stamp.

2 MR. STAMP: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you bring in the next witness,

4 please.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, can you hear me in a language you

7 understand?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before giving testimony in this court, you're

10 required by the Rules of Procedure and Evidence to make a solemn

11 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

12 the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration. The text

13 has just been handed out to you by the usher.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 WITNESS: SINISA KRSMAN

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krsman. Please be seated. You'll

19 first be examined by counsel for the Defence.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Examined by Ms. Pilipovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. Will you please give us your full name, the date and place of your

1 birth.

2 A. My name is Sinisa Krsman. I was born on the 17th of December,

3 1961 in Sarajevo, municipality of Centar.

4 Q. Mr. Krsman, will you tell us, in 1992 where you did you live then?

5 A. In Rajlovac, the village of Zabrdje until the 8th of May, 1992.

6 That is, from the date of my birth until the 8th of May, 1992.

7 Q. Thank you. Sir, we shall come back to that moment that you tell

8 us was the 8th of May, when you stopped living there. But first I'd like

9 to ask you, since we're talking about September 1992-August 1994, whether

10 you can tell us if during that time you lived and were militarily engaged

11 in the area of Rajlovac.

12 A. Throughout the war, I lived and was militarily engaged in the area

13 of Rajlovac, except that from the 8th of May, I did not live in my house

14 any longer but I was in this village of mine, that I was in my relatives'

15 and friends' houses.

16 Q. When you say that you were militarily engaged in the territory of

17 Rajlovac, can you tell us if you were a member of a military formation in

18 the area and whether there was that military formation there.

19 A. There was no military formation in the conventional sense of the

20 word until sometime in June or perhaps July. But when the Army of

21 Republika Srpska was formed, by the dint of that, we all became soldiers

22 of the Army of Republika Srpska, and I had the duty of the company

23 commander in my village.

24 Q. When you say that you became part of the Army of Republika Srpska,

25 can you tell us, apart from your company that you were the commander of,

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1 whether there were any other units in the area, and if so, how many, and

2 whether those units were united in a larger formation.

3 A. Well, in the beginning of the war, we were not members of an

4 organisation. Defenders of the village, that is how you could call us.

5 Our village was separated and we organised ourselves there. It was

6 self-organisation to defend the village from those attacks that I will

7 presumably talk about later on. And other villages also had people, that

8 is, members, who lived around those houses, so we organised ourselves, but

9 then we grew into a brigade which basically in terms of its strength was

10 like a battalion. That is, we had three companies in that brigade -- I

11 mean, it was called brigade, but nevertheless in terms of its strength, it

12 was more like a battalion.

13 Q. When you say three companies in a brigade which was only called

14 brigade but otherwise was a battalion, can you tell us to make it quite

15 clear whether that brigade had a name.

16 A. Since we lived in the territory of Rajlovac and that is something

17 like an area, the brigade was called the Rajlovac Brigade. And one

18 company was part of Brijesce and around Brijesce. Another company was the

19 Rajlovac barracks, which was made up of the Serb refugees from the city.

20 And the third company was my village, Zabrdje.

21 Q. When you tell us that as a company commander you were in a

22 formation with other two companies, that one was in the territory of

23 Brijesce and another in the territory of the Rajlovac barracks -- I'll

24 come back to that so that you can explain to us better the exact

25 locations. But could you tell us the structure of able-bodied men who

1 were in part of, say, the Rajlovac Brigade. I understand that they were

2 men from the areas that you have indicated.

3 A. Specifically I can tell you that in my Zabrdje company, all the

4 fighters were from the village of Zabrdje. In other words, we had never

5 any outsiders. I can even list all the names if it is necessary, and I

6 will show you on the map afterwards that there is absolutely not a single

7 individual who had come from outside. And likewise, in Brijesce, that is,

8 in that company, the whole population of Brijesce which lived there made

9 up that company. And in Rajlovac, the situation was somewhat more

10 specific because the population that had been expelled from Sarajevo, the

11 Serb population who had been expelled from Sarajevo had found shelter

12 there and there were people from Dobrinja, Alipasino Polje, Brijesce, Buca

13 Potok, Pofalici and so on and so forth, and they found accommodation there

14 since that was a kind of our collective centre.

15 Q. Can you tell us, after your brigade was formed and after the Army

16 of Republika Srpska was organised - and we are talking about the time

17 until up to August 1994 - were there any professional military in your

18 brigade, and who was your brigade's commander?

19 A. When we came into -- when we were formed as a unit of the Army of

20 Republika Srpska, I personally -- or rather, all of us, we were not

21 particularly interested in the beginning who was our -- who would be our

22 commander. We merely wanted to say -- to save our lives. But since there

23 was a company commander, I naturally went to briefings. The first

24 commander was Vujasin, who was commander for a very short while. Then

25 Bandjur, Miroslav Bandjur, succeeded him as a commander. Then I think we

1 requested since in our village we have one or two officers -- army

2 officers who came from our village and who had completed their education.

3 We requested from our commander to have them appointed as our commanders

4 since they used to live there, they still lived there, they were trained

5 there. And Commander Radic who was born in Reljevo, and my last commander

6 was Terzic, who was born in the village of Zabrdje, that is, our village.

7 He was a major. And then Radic, until the end of the war, that is, until

8 after the Dayton Accords, he commanded our battalion.

9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Krsman, could you please slow down and make

10 breaks. When you told us how the formations came about in the territory

11 of Rajlovac, how the Rajlovac brigade came about, you are telling us about

12 how you organise yourselves, and you said you were attacked -- you said

13 that it was the 8th of May. That is the date when you left your home,

14 your house. Can you tell us whether it was due to some operations of a

15 military unit or why did you leave your area that you lived in?

16 A. I lived in my family house. My wife, my two children, my father,

17 my mother, my brother and I lived in that house. My house was the first

18 one next to Muslim positions. That is, at that time we still did not know

19 that they would be Muslim positions one day. But we watched television.

20 There were already problems in the city after the murder of the Serb

21 member of a wedding party in Bascarsija. And then the attack on Ilidza,

22 on Grbavica. We saw it all on television. We heard all that. And by the

23 8th of May came to pass, when in an organised and planned attack our

24 well-informed neighbours attacked the entire territory of Rajlovac, and

25 especially the boundary areas along the separation line. And on that day,

1 the 8th of May, there must have been more than 20 shells falling around my

2 house. I managed to carry my two children and with my parents, who are

3 people of advanced age, to pull out of that attack --

4 Q. Mr. Krsman, I'll stop you now. You are telling us about the

5 separation lines. Between whom and when were those separation lines,

6 partition lines, established?

7 A. The separation lines established by themselves, or shall I say

8 ethnically? Because our whole village, Zabrdje, was an ethnically pure

9 Serb village.

10 Next to us -- next to us our Muslim neighbours were completely

11 leaning against a hill behind us.

12 Q. When you say "leaning against a hill behind us," can you tell us

13 which hill is that?

14 A. That hill is called Sokolje, and all along it, that is, its full

15 length is behind our village.

16 Q. You are telling us about the establishment of ethnic lines,

17 separation lines, and attacks by your neighbours. Can you tell us, did

18 you defend yourselves?

19 A. When that first attack happened, we had absolutely no

20 organisation, nor could we defend ourselves, and we immediately, the same

21 day, drew our, well, so-called line of defence, some three, four hundred

22 metres into -- in the depth -- or into the depth of our territory.

23 Q. Mr. Krsman, I gather from your answer that the attackers -- and

24 you tell us that they were your neighbours -- were armed.

25 A. Yes, they were armed.

1 Q. Were you armed too?

2 A. Yes, and we were armed too. But we only with infantry weapons.

3 Q. Can you tell us, since as you tell us that territory became the

4 area of responsibility of, say, the Rajlovac Brigade, do you have any

5 knowledge -- can you tell us, how did you arm yourself and how did your

6 neighbours arm themselves? If you know, that is.

7 A. Well, we were armed in an identical way, they and we. As you

8 know, near our territory is the Rajlovac barracks. At that time, why, I

9 didn't know anything, which armies, what kind of armies. And we -- from

10 the -- we were issued with weapons from the Rajlovac barracks. That is,

11 we took the weapons from the storage house. And we were issued with -- we

12 took 200 rifles with combat -- complete combat sets, and the Muslims at

13 Sokolje took 800 rifles. I was a witness to that at the Rajlovac barracks

14 when they took that.

15 Q. Please when you tell us that you took your weapons from the

16 barracks in Rajlovac, can you tell us whether it was organised, whether

17 there were personnel in the Rajlovac barracks who issued those weapons to

18 you. Could you clarify this, please.

19 A. I can clarify it -- no, nothing was organised. But the Rajlovac

20 barracks wasn't like other barracks in the city. It wasn't a combat

21 barracks. It was the training ground for cadets and officers who would

22 complete their secondary training there, so there were no conventional

23 soldiers there. And by the date that I'm talking about, everybody had

24 moved already out, including children who were studying there, so that

25 only some of the faculty staff were there, some professors, teachers, and

1 those who could not leave the barracks. So that it was -- well, I won't

2 say it was anarchy, but whoever entered the barracks could pick up a

3 weapon. And whilst I was there, whilst I was present, I know there were

4 six Muslim officers, true, lower-ranking officers, who were also in the

5 barracks, and who had stay there had presumably so they could issue

6 weapons to the Muslims too.

7 Q. Mr. Sinisa, now, when you tell us that there were Muslims,

8 professional officers, were there also Serbs who were professional

9 officers in the barracks?

10 A. There were, but very few. I remember the troops -- no, not the

11 troops, because that was not the army. But professors who were officers,

12 they were with their wives. And on the 13th of May, the last -- well,

13 shall I call him an officer? -- left with a convoy and the barracks

14 remained literally, apart from those two, as I said, commanders who were

15 with us, the brigade commanders, the barracks was left without those

16 officers that you are talking about.

17 Q. When you say "those two brigade commanders who stayed with you,"

18 can you tell us if you know where they lived and where did they come from

19 at the time since -- when they were engaged as your brigade commanders?

20 Who are you referring to?

21 A. I'm talking about Vujasin and Bandjur. I think they just happened

22 to be there when it happened. They were not there a long time there

23 because Commander Radic succeeded them and then Commander Terzic succeeded

24 him in turn.

25 Q. Mr. Sinisa, when you tell us that in your area where you lived,

1 that is, the area of Sarajevo, and I'm talking about the area of Rajlovac,

2 ethnic lines were established. Do you have any -- do you know, apart from

3 the infantry weapons that the -- shall I say the adversary side had, and

4 you tell us that they had taken them from the barracks. Were there any

5 other weapons in that area? That is, the line that was established

6 ethnically.

7 A. Yes. As the war progressed, it turned out that the enemy side on

8 the opposite side practically had at their disposal all the weaponry.

9 Throughout the war they fired at us from mortars, from recoilless guns,

10 and they had a tank at that separation line. True, they did not target us

11 directly from the tank. And they also had a gun. I think it was B1.

12 That is, as far as the heavy weaponry they had is concerned.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, the

14 Defence should like, in view of the witness's narrative so far -- would

15 like to show the witness the map of the city of Sarajevo so that everybody

16 would be quite clear about which area Mr. Krsman is talking about at a

17 later stage of examination.

18 And with your leave, Mr. Krsman, if you could also draw the

19 separation line about which you say that was ethnically formed in that

20 area after the 8th of May.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Pilipovic, you may show the map.

22 THE REGISTRAR: D1843.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, of course I'm not aware of how much

24 you would like the witness to mark on the map. If it would be a lot, you

25 know that it's sometimes done during the break. If it's just a few lines,

1 then please proceed.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was about to ask

3 that the witness be shown the map because I'd like to ask him a couple of

4 questions, with your leave. But if need be, with your leave, he will mark

5 certain positions, certain places that he said the adversary side acted

6 from.

7 Q. Now, about the line that you tell us was ethnically formed in May

8 1992, did that change?

9 A. As I have told you already, on the 8th of May straight away we

10 left that line moving backward 500 metres, and that is how it was until

11 the 12th of June, 1993. And on the 12th of June, 1993, there was a

12 horrendous Muslim attack so that these lines had to be pulled back another

13 500 metres almost, almost to -- or, rather, not almost, because we did not

14 retreat any more. We were ready to die old, because otherwise all our

15 families would have been killed, our wives and children, so that that is

16 how they remained until Dayton.

17 Q. So if I understood you well, that line which was established in

18 May 1992 to all intents and purposes changed only once, actually, in June

19 1993.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During the break, I'd like to ask you to draw a line -- or rather,

22 now you draw this first line and then during the break you can also draw

23 the second line, dotted. And since you spoke about positions and the

24 operations of the adversary forces with mortars, you told us, guns, and

25 tanks, I will also ask you to mark those positions during the break and

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1 mark them with a circle. And later on we shall put numbers next to them,

2 because you'll be asked to explain which is which position. But now will

3 you please point at the area that you spoke about and to draw this line

4 which was established in May 1992.

5 A. Can everybody see this on the monitor?

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] If you can pull down the map.

7 A. Here. Here. Where it says Bjelice, this is my house.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Can we, please, zoom in on where the witness points

9 at. Yes.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. So, Mr. Krsman, when you tell us that it is your house, are you

12 telling us -- are you speaking about the area of a part of Rajlovac where

13 you used to live?

14 A. Yes. And this is literally the heart of the area of

15 responsibility of my company, but I'll show you that later.

16 Q. I will ask you to draw now the line of the area of responsibility

17 of your company during that time. And if you know, I'll also ask you to

18 mark the position of other companies, that is, the established line of

19 separation in May 1992. Use a black marker and draw a line so that we can

20 all be clear what area we're talking about.

21 A. The area of responsibility of our battalion -- that is, brigade --

22 that is, first the brigade and then battalion, was from the Miljacka River

23 to the locality of Bacici. Then straight on to Bozica pump in Brijesce.

24 All of this was held by the 1st Company that was its area of

25 responsibility up to the depot, and then following the tracks -- the rails

1 of the depot, the last pair of rails to Rajlovac. That was the area of

2 responsibility of the 1st Company in the early days of war.

3 Then the 2nd Company was the Rajlovac barracks, all of it,

4 following the inner side of the rail tracks. That is, the position was

5 never across the tracks. And throughout the war, this line never changed.

6 My company, that is, in my village --

7 Q. Mr. Krsman, we are talking about the line in May 1992.

8 A. Yes, in line in May 1992. So the area of responsibility of my

9 line went from the reservoir, the water reservoir supplying the Rajlovac

10 barracks and which was 100 metres away from the road on the Sokolje hill,

11 and the line followed the slope behind -- between us and that, Sokolje.

12 Now, can I now explain. Here you see on the map there's a green

13 area where there are absolutely no indications of houses. Since this is

14 an old map - I don't know how old it is - in this green area, 20.000

15 people lived. That is, over the past ten years, since 1982 to 1992,

16 20.000 people settled here. They built their houses illegally. That is

17 why you don't have houses drawn here, as my house is drawn and other

18 houses in Zabrdje.

19 Q. When you say 20.000 people since 1982, since you used to live in

20 that area, do you know -- and you are telling us about unlawful

21 settlement -- do you know who is it that came and settled in the area and

22 built houses in that area that you are pointing at on the map?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Relevance.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what the relevance is of where

1 these people came from that lived in that part of the city.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it's relevant in that

3 we want to assess the credibility of the witness, to assess whether the

4 witness is telling the truth, since he said that people settled in that

5 area and that that area, which is indicated by the colour green, he says

6 that 20.000 people lived there. And I think that one should ask whether

7 he knows how this happened, since he's been speaking about unlawful

8 constructions. I wanted the witness to tell us how he knows about this

9 area, about this area that was populated by these people.

10 JUDGE ORIE: You asked him where the people came from. If you

11 would say from The Hague -- I mean, it's still not clear to me.

12 But let's just ask the witness to answer and then perhaps keep in

13 mind that just the credibility of a witness should enable us to assess the

14 credibility after he has answered the questions.

15 You may answer the question. The question was where the people

16 came from who unlawfully constructed in that green area.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It just so happened that I was on

18 the list of the commission for the census, for the population census in

19 1991, and I personally listed all those in that local commune. That was a

20 well-known census, in September 1991. It was on that occasion. And these

21 people were on the whole --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was before the war; isn't that true? And

23 the question is where --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- The people came from who settled there illegally.

1 Perhaps you are explaining how you know, but perhaps you could first

2 answer the question where they came from.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll answer that question

4 immediately. They mostly came from Sandzak, Novi Pazar, Zepa, and the

5 municipality of Visegrad, 90 per cent of them came from those areas.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I don't know whether there's any --

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. We can have a

8 break. We can have a break. But with your leave, I would like to ask

9 Mr. Krsman to use a black felt-tip to draw a dotted line and indicate in

10 which part that line was changed in June 1992. And with your leave, to

11 mark with a blue felt-tip the positions of the BH army front in that area.

12 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] And it will then be easier for us

14 to put questions to you later.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Isn't it true that blue is always used to mark

16 on request of the Prosecution?

17 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. In that case, I'll ask the

18 witness to mark the BH army positions, their lines, with a full line and

19 then dots, so that there's a difference between these lines.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sir, would you please mark with a dotted line

21 the new line -- your new line established after you were pushed back and

22 then a line -- not just dotted but a dot and then a piece of a line and

23 then a dot again where the BiH formations had their lines. Could you do

24 that during the break. I hope that there will be some time available so

25 that there's a cup of tea or coffee for you as well. But we are very much

1 under a time restraint. Would you be willing to do so during the break?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

4 Of course the parties may be present when the witness is drawing

5 these lines.

6 We'll adjourn until twenty minutes past 4.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for marking the map.

10 Could we zoom in a tiny little bit more so that we can copy it on

11 our own maps.

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Mr. Krsman, I see that you have marked with a full line the

14 positions that were such in the month of May. You've marked it with a

15 full black line. Can you tell us what the dotted line, the line with

16 dots, represents.

17 A. It indicates the positions of the BH army, which were opposite our

18 lines, in face of our lines.

19 Q. We can see a dotted line in part of the map, which is in the lower

20 part behind the full black line, and in the upper part we can see

21 positions which are above the lines which have -- which consist of a

22 series of dots and then lines. Can you tell us where that is and what

23 these lines, what these lines represent, these interrupted lines, these

24 dotted lines.

25 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please lower it down a

1 bit.

2 A. So this line indicates the positions that the BH army forced us to

3 adopt on the 12th -- between the 12th and the 13th of June. And in this

4 part of the area of responsibility of the 1st Company, this line is the

5 line that we went to in May, because we weren't able to defend this

6 position in the face of the BH army.

7 Q. When you say "in May," can you tell us which year that was

8 exactly?

9 A. We withdrew to this position in May -- we withdrew to these

10 positions here, and the -- didn't change about the four-year period of

11 war.

12 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to listen carefully to the questions.

13 Because the question was what year, when you were talking about May. You

14 gave an explanation, but you did not mention in what year the month of May

15 the line was changed.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've understood in 1992. I was

17 saying that we established those lines in May 1992, at the beginning of

18 the war.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Krsman, you told us that when you drew the first straight

21 line, you told us about the positions of the Bozica Pumpa and the depot

22 and the Rajlovac barracks. Can you mark on this map the Bozica Pumpa

23 position, the barracks position, the Rajlovac barracks position, and the

24 depot position. If you can, can you make a circle to indicate these

25 positions. For Bozica Pumpa, put "B." For depot, put "D," and for

1 barracks, "B."

2 A. Here on the map you have a sign for Bozica Pumpa. The Bozici

3 lived there. That's the Bozici settlement and that's what this sign

4 indicates.

5 Q. If you could make a circle there.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Can you mark the depot area that you mentioned on this map.

8 A. This is incorrect on the map. It says the Rajlovac railway

9 station. It's not the railway station. It's the depot. That's where the

10 trains came for servicing and to be washed, et cetera.

11 Q. Could you mark that with the letter "D."

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. When you mentioned the barracks -- you mentioned the barracks.

14 Can you mark the position of the barracks in this area.

15 A. You can see the barracks on the map. It's this complex, the

16 complex consisting of these buildings here, all the buildings in this

17 circle that I have drawn.

18 Q. You said that in the depot area, which you have marked with the

19 letter "D" and where it says "Rajlovac railway station," I think you told

20 us that that wasn't a railway station there. And can you mark the

21 position of the railway station, if this is visible on the map.

22 A. The railway station is above this turning from the main road.

23 This is where the railway station was and slow trains were kept there, the

24 local trains, et cetera, that went to Sarajevo.

25 Q. Mr. Krsman, can you tell us where the command post of your brigade

1 was located?

2 A. Yes. And I can show it -- I'll mark it with the letter "X." It's

3 in the Rajlovac barracks in the central part of the barracks.

4 Q. Can you mark this position with "KB" to indicate the command post

5 of the brigade.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. At the beginning of your testimony you said that there were

8 refugees -- Serbian refugees in the barracks who were from parts of

9 Sarajevo. Can you tell us whether from September 1992 up until 1994, did

10 people live in these barracks, women and children? Could you answer that

11 question.

12 A. Until about the end of May, children lived there too. But after

13 the month of May --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Mundis.

15 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution objects, again on the

16 grounds of relevance.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, bearing in mind the

19 fact that the witness has already said that refugees lived in the

20 barracks, at the beginning of his testimony I only wanted to obtain an

21 answer for the period of 1992/1993, since he has indicated that the

22 command post was located there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness may answer the question.

24 So were there refugees living in the barracks in 1992/1993?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, with the exception of children.

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1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Thank you. You marked the command post of, let's say, the

3 Rajlovac Brigade. Can you now tell us whether you know where the command

4 posts were. Do you know what formation the enemy army had and do you know

5 where their command posts were located?

6 A. I don't know what kind of formation they had, but I know that the

7 command post was located in the primary school in Brijesce, in the primary

8 school and in the cultural centre.

9 Q. Can you mark the locations -- can you mark the places where the

10 brigade had its command post.

11 A. Well, since the names of these streets have been changed -- well,

12 let me just have a look.

13 That's here. That's the Brijesce Street, and that's where the

14 primary school and the cultural centre were located.

15 Q. You also marked and said what sort of weapons the enemy side had.

16 Can you first of all tell us what sort of weapons you had in your brigade.

17 A. We had -- our company had weapons that a company usually has. And

18 the brigade had the weapons that it needed. We had all the weapons that a

19 brigade usually has. If necessary, I can explain this in detail.

20 Q. Yes, could you please do so.

21 A. In the company we had machine-guns, 60-millimetre mortars, and

22 82-millimetre mortars, and we had guns the calibre of which went up to 20

23 millimetres. We also had artillery support, and the artillery had guns

24 and Howitzers and a tank.

25 Q. You have mentioned tanks and guns, and you said that you had

1 support. Can you mark the positions -- did you know where the positions

2 of the tank and the gun were? And if you're able to do so, can you mark

3 these positions on the map.

4 A. Well, I didn't want to mark this during the break because the tank

5 and gun fired from where the mosque has been marked on the map. So a gun

6 fired at our positions from here, and there was a tank which was also

7 active but it didn't fire at our positions. It fired on Ilidza because it

8 couldn't fire in our direction since there were -- they were higher up

9 from our position.

10 Q. If you can, can you draw a circle?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. What does this mean?

13 A. A tank and a gun fired from the same position. A tank appeared

14 when necessary, and a gun was located here. They were very close to each

15 other.

16 Q. You've marked these positions and the Bozica pump position and the

17 depot position, can you tell us --

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I interrupt you. I'm a bit confused, as a matter

19 of fact.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that the rest is not

21 clear.

22 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... The witness

23 the positions of his own weaponry. And from his answer, I take it the

24 response was of the weaponry of the other side. So before continuing,

25 will you clarify this issue so that the answer corresponds to what your

1 question was.

2 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Krsman, I asked you about the positions of the weapons that

4 you brigade had, and you said that heavy weapons supported you. Can you

5 mark the tank's position on this map. And if I'm not mistaken, you said

6 that this tank provided support for your brigade. Can you point out the

7 position?

8 A. When I said that we had heavy weapons, heavy weapons provided

9 support for us only when the enemy launched an attack. So we didn't have

10 a tank at a position because tanks don't take up just one position. I

11 thought you were asking me about the tank which was at this position here.

12 But our support -- support provided always when they launched an attack.

13 In about 10 or 15 minutes it arrived at the position and went into action.

14 Q. Mr. Krsman, since you were the company commander, can you tell us

15 whether -- or first of all, could you tell us how many men you had in your

16 company.

17 A. At the end of the war, there were 157 men in my company.

18 Naturally the number would vary, as 27 of my men died in my

19 village -- they were killed in my village. That is, village inhabitants

20 died there. I said at the beginning we were issued with about 200 rifles,

21 and there were also invalids. There were wounded people. So there were

22 157 men at the end of the war.

23 Q. Can you tell us, as company commander, who was your superior?

24 A. My immediate superior was the battalion commander, and I received

25 orders from him alone. And a minute ago I mentioned the names.

1 Q. When you say that you received orders -- all orders from your

2 superior, can you tell us what kind of orders you would receive from your

3 superior.

4 A. All the orders depended on the daily situation. Every morning we

5 went to a briefing -- or rather, to meetings. And depending on the

6 situation, we would receive certain orders. This excludes the standing

7 orders, the daily orders.

8 Q. When you say the standard daily orders, what did you mean by that?

9 What sort of orders did this concern? Can you clarify that.

10 A. Well, these orders had to do with not opening fire on -- saving

11 ammunition, or not provoking, monitoring the situation at all times.

12 These were daily orders, and their purpose was to maintain a stable front

13 and not to violate those truces which were signed and which we really

14 never did violate. And it had to do with all the tasks of a combat unit.

15 Q. As part of those orders, did you also receive orders that

16 concerned civilian targets?

17 A. Well, in the zone of responsibility of my company, we didn't have

18 any civilian targets. There were just trenches there, men at the front

19 lines. There were no civilians. When we observed the situation, there

20 were no civilians, unless you consider the mosque to be a civilian target.

21 But as there was a tank there and a gun, it was a legitimate military

22 target.

23 Q. You said that as part of the orders you received on -- and you

24 mentioned daily situations, orders that had to do with the daily

25 situation. What kind of orders were they? Can you explain in a few words

1 what the front where your company was responsible, what was it like? Or

2 if you know anything about the brigade zone or the battalion zone, as you

3 say, what can you tell us about this?

4 A. Well, our problem was that across the road from us there was a

5 position where the units would always change. The Muslim units would

6 always rotate. Other men would come. And in our positions, the people

7 from our village were there all the time. Whenever the unit changed on

8 their side, they started firing immediately, they started provoking us,

9 and that was a constant problem for us right up until the very end of the

10 war.

11 Q. When you say that they provoked you and opened fire, can you

12 clarify that? How often did this occur? And in this zone of

13 responsibility of, let's say, your brigade, were there certain locations

14 where certain -- certain positions where the fighting was more intense?

15 Was there such intense fighting in the zone of responsibility and were

16 there any particular positions which -- at which in your opinion the

17 fighting was more intense or on a larger scale?

18 A. If you have a look at the map and these elevations, you'll see

19 that the entire line of responsibility of our brigade or battalion -- we

20 were in the valley along our line, and the Muslim units were in the hills.

21 And at all times they had the opportunity to fire from an elevated

22 position. And the fact that in my village - it's a small village - the

23 fact that 27 people and 6 women died in my village and over 50 people were

24 wounded, this shows that the fighting was intense on an almost daily

25 basis.

1 Q. Mr. Krsman, since you marked on this map the positions of both

2 your brigade and positions of the members of the BH army, I will now show

3 you a map on which we have marked positions - of course with the Chamber's

4 leave - and ask you to identify those places on that map, that is, these

5 front lines, and then I'll ask you some questions in relation to that map.

6 THE REGISTRAR: D1844.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Krsman, do you recognise the area that we see on this map?

9 A. Yes. This is the blown-up area of the depot, Bozica pump, the

10 Brijesce, and the junction in Brijesce.

11 Q. If I tell you that this map shows the front lines in green or

12 slightly more blue are the positions of the BH army, and the dark green

13 indicates the positions of your army, if I may put it that way, that is,

14 the positions of the Army of Republika Srpska, would you agree with me

15 that as they are drawn here, do they reflect the true positions in

16 September 1992 to August 1994?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, leading.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis.

19 MR. MUNDIS: It's a leading question, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The witness is asked after he has first given the

21 front lines whether this line would reflect or not -- I think the witness

22 could answer that question.

23 But could we first perhaps see -- I have some difficulties in

24 seeing dark and -- could we zoom out a tiny little bit. Could we zoom out

25 or is that impossible?

1 That's as wide as it can be.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, I think you said something about green

4 lines and more bluish green lines. I'm trying to spot them on this map.

5 I only see one colour of green, if I'm -- but it might be that I'm

6 slightly blind for colours. But could you perhaps tell me where to find

7 the more dark green lines.

8 A. The dark green lines -- or rather, dark green are in relation to

9 the circle and the word "Brijesce," below the large red circle and above

10 the word "Brijesce."

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the lighter green lines -- oh, now I

12 see them, I think.

13 Could we just perhaps first have a look at the colour map. Could

14 Mr. Usher bring them so that we first have a look at it, and then we can

15 continue.

16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

17 JUDGE ORIE: No. It's entirely clear now. It's my bad side that

18 caused -- well, also, of course, but the bad side on the screen.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Krsman, I told you that the positions of the Army of Republika

21 Srpska and of the Army of BH are indicated here. Can you tell us, the

22 dark -- the darker green lines - and I told you that those were the

23 positions of the BH army - do they reflect the positions of the army

24 between September 1992 to August 1994?

25 A. The BH army's positions are correct, and they reflect the

1 situation. But the positions of our army, of Republika Srpska, I've

2 already drawn it and I indicated them. These as shown here do not reflect

3 the true situation.

4 Q. Will you take the black marker to identify the positions of the

5 Army of Republika Srpska, please.

6 A. I've already said, because we could not defend this -- like this.

7 And here we went -- because this is blown up. We broke off that line and

8 we followed the tracks, apart from the big buildings. And I drew it on

9 the previous map, because they were destroyed straight away so we could

10 not use them. So this is what our line was, and it never changed during

11 the war.

12 Q. Can you mark on this map the area of the depot and the Bozica pump

13 or petrol station.

14 A. The area of depot, you can see. You can see all these tracks, and

15 that is all part of it. And the Bozica pump was on the high street and on

16 the main road, and it's still there, except that it's not called the

17 Bozica pump but something else. I don't know what.

18 Q. Between 1992 to -- that is, September -- August 1994, did you with

19 your company -- were you with your company in the area which you marked as

20 the area of the 1st Company in the sense of your military engagement?

21 A. Yes. On one occasion, and that was on Sveti Sava, which is the

22 27th of January, 1993. The enemy forces had broken through the lines in

23 the area of Spajic farm, killed a soldier. Other soldiers beat a retreat.

24 And then with some men I managed to regain this line and to reinstitute

25 the previous state of affairs. But whenever it was necessary in case of

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1 more fierce attacks, we went there, and they also came to help us, but

2 they were all our friends, our kums, our relatives.

3 Q. You've marked the position of the depot of the railway station and

4 the Bozica pump, but you said the Bozica pump was in the territory which

5 is near the road. That is, it is between the positions of the Army of BH

6 and the Army of Republika Srpska. Did you have any information if in the

7 territory of the Bozica pump there were any troops at that time?

8 A. Yes, there were troops. And people who had come out of the city

9 told me -- of course, every pump has fuel. Since there was a shortage in

10 the city, they risked, and they were getting the fuel from tankers, from

11 systems at the pump. So that is a detail that I remember.

12 Q. On this map we see a point marked "16" and "17." Can you tell us,

13 since you looked at the map of the city, and that street can -- is also

14 drawn on that map -- can you tell us how far is it from the railway

15 station, or rather, the depot to this point which is marked with numbers

16 "16" and "17."

17 A. Well, you can only calculate it on the map. This is Brijesko Brdo

18 and from here, from the depot you cannot see this point. Perhaps if you

19 are a bit to the right. But there must be at least a kilometre from the

20 depot to the 16/17 point.

21 Q. When you say that from the depot you cannot see this point, can

22 you explain why can't you see it?

23 A. Well, simply you can't because this road -- all these roads go

24 between hills, and the depot -- I don't know what is the feature. Well,

25 it's 492, and this is 700, and there is absolutely a hill. It's called

1 Brijesko Brdo. You simply can't see that point from the depot. I was

2 born there, and I know it. It's impossible.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm wondering, Ms. Pilipovic -- I understood

4 the position of the Prosecution not to be that it was ever fired from the

5 depot. And we now have -- we get testimony at length as that what you

6 could not see from the depot. But I'm just trying to understand what is

7 actually going on.

8 Mr. Mundis.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, you've correctly stated the

10 Prosecution position with respect to the alleged sniper position. It's

11 clearly indicated on the map and that's not the depot.

12 JUDGE ORIE: So there's no way that the Prosecution takes it that

13 16 and 17 could be seen -- or could be directly targeted from the depot or

14 the railway station.

15 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no position on that,

16 Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no dispute about that, Ms. Pilipovic.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I

20 merely have to say the issue of the depot, in view of the testimonies of

21 witnesses of the Prosecution, I wanted to clear this up because some

22 witnesses at times said that there was fire opened from the area of the

23 depot. So my next question will be, as we can see this red circle here.

24 And that is why I wanted the Bozica pump to be marked, because some

25 witnesses spoke about Bozica pump and the depot, and I wanted to clear

1 this up. As the witness lived in the area -- my question was to be:

2 Q. Mr. Krsman, on this map you can also see a rather large red circle

3 on this map, can't you?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Can you identify this area?

6 A. I can. This is the area of Bacici. So roughly these are

7 meadows -- these are farms which were tilled by these people, the

8 beginning of these farms, those people who lived over here in Brijesce.

9 Q. When you say "the area of Bacici," can you tell us this area, the

10 area of Bacici - so it's September 1992/August 1994 - what kind of

11 population and who lived in that area? Do you know that?

12 A. Well, naturally, nobody lived in that area, because I've already

13 said that in May we had already retreated to the barracks and to the line

14 that I've shown you. So this was an abandoned territory which was farmed

15 by people -- which had been farmed by people before the war.

16 Q. Do you know if during the war in that area which you tell us was

17 abandoned - and that was land that was farmed beforehand - were there any

18 army troops or were there any positions in that place?

19 A. Absolutely not, because it was indefencible. It was in the middle

20 of meadows. Any position would have been destroyed. And very simply -- I

21 mean, had there have been a command down there, I would have destroyed it

22 immediately, had there been any position there of any importance.

23 Q. You said "up." What did you mean by the word "up"?

24 A. Well, in the beginning of my testimony, I said that Brijesko Brdo

25 is up there. That is, that all the Muslim positions were up on the hill

1 and we were down. If you know what area I'm talking about, then you know

2 what it means to you. Brijesko Brdo is a huge hill above us, and we were

3 all down in the valley.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please break

5 between question and answer.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please wait until the interpreters have

7 been able to translate the question before you answer it.

8 And just for my information, Ms. Pilipovic, the "B" marked on this

9 map as we see it in front of us, what was that exactly again?

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the pump?

12 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] That is the Bozica pump, the

13 petrol station. That is what the witness marked on the map.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

15 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Mr. Krsman, if we assume that army troops could be here, where

17 this circle is, can you tell us, in relation to the point 16 and 17,

18 what -- how feasible is it to -- for the infantry to act against the point

19 16 and 17?

20 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, Mr. President. Calls for speculation.

21 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I said "I assume." I said "let us

22 assume that army troops are there," since the witness told us what kind of

23 terrain we were dealing with here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first again read your question.

25 Yes. I don't know what kind of feasibility you have in mind. So

1 if the witness knows about the terrain, you can ask him questions about

2 that. But whether it's feasible or not depends on many, many

3 circumstances. Some of them would call for speculation. Others might not

4 call for speculation. So if you would try to ask the witness about facts

5 he knows, that would be the best way. And it could be on this subject.

6 Please proceed.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Krsman, do you -- are you familiar with positions in the area

9 of this circle that you can see on the map? Do you know, that is, that

10 area?

11 A. Yes, of course I do.

12 Q. Can you tell us something about the lie of the land between this

13 circle and points 16 and 17? Are you familiar with that?

14 A. From the circle to this intersection, you can see it on the map,

15 it's flat. You have, for instance, this feature 492 elevation. Towards

16 the intersection there is a steep slope here. I think it's about

17 700-something, which means that there is about a 200-metre difference in

18 altitude.

19 Q. Since you've given us this clarification -- since you've given us

20 this explanation, since you've explained to us the difference in altitude,

21 can you tell us something about the distance between the circle and the

22 point 16 and 17? According to you, how far are they?

23 A. Well, it can be easily measured, but I'm quite sure that it's over

24 600 metres.

25 Q. Thank you. You told us that you attended the morning briefings

1 almost daily. Does this mean that commanders of the 1st and the

2 2nd Company also attended those briefings?

3 A. Yes, always, either the commanders or their deputies.

4 Q. Does that mean that you were present when they reported on their

5 daily, if I may call them that, reports, on the daily developments? Did

6 you hear the reports of the 1st Company commander? For instance, what was

7 the military situation in the area of responsibility of the 1st Company?

8 A. The situation in the area of responsibility of the 1st Company was

9 almost identical with the situation in the area of responsibility of the

10 2nd and mine, that is, the 3rd Company. That is simply because we were in

11 the valley, so that we daily suffered provocations and fire. For a while

12 we made jokes about that. They could even hit us with a stone. There

13 were daily provocations -- well, perhaps not every day, but every week

14 surely.

15 Q. At some point in your testimony you mentioned the cease-fire. Can

16 you tell us if you, that is, have any knowledge about that,

17 whether -- whether you were kept abreast of the cease-fire agreements

18 signed. And if so, often were you aware of those cease-fires and were

19 they complied with, and could you also place them in time?

20 A. There were frequent agreements on the cease-fires, especially

21 after offensives when they could not break through our territory. Then

22 they requested these cease-fires, as opposed to simply consolidate their

23 forces. And we really -- I can say that openly we always strictly

24 complied with the signed cease-fire agreements, always, and nothing but.

25 I am talking about my company, but I also know about the other two

1 companies, that we were never the first ones to violate those cease-fires.

2 Q. On the map of the city - and now we see on this map too - could

3 you indicate the road that was, if I understood you properly -- that was

4 the road that was used throughout the war. We're talking about September

5 1992/August 1994. Can you point at this road on the map?

6 A. I don't understand. Which road do you have in mind?

7 Q. I mean the road that you indicated on the map of the city, the

8 road, the communication.

9 A. For -- my company used a village road behind the depot. But the

10 main road, the highway to the city was used by UNPROFOR, by observers, and

11 the others. That is, none of the -- neither of the belligerents used the

12 highway.

13 Q. As far as I can understand from your explanation, the highway, the

14 main road, passed through -- and to try to make it more precise, it went

15 through these points and this circle down there and through points 16 and

16 17.

17 A. Yes, exactly across this intersection, across this spaghetti

18 junction, because there was -- there was this bifurcation where one went

19 to Ilidza and one followed the Buca Potok and also went on to Sarajevo.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in view of the

21 witness's answers, the Defence should like to show a photograph which is

22 Prosecution Exhibit 1812A. I have informed the registrar that I wanted to

23 show the witness this map -- I mean, this photograph.

24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you before to -- just to have clarified.

25 Yes. No, it's clear to me -- it's clear to me now. Please proceed.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Krsman, you have in front of you a photograph reflecting two

3 areas. Can you tell us whether you recognise the area on the upper

4 photograph.

5 A. Yes. I've just explained it. It's -- on that map it must be the

6 circle. And what you see in the background are the houses of the Bozic

7 family. And our line was right next to those houses. And what we see in

8 front, it's either a shed or a hen house, as we call it. And right in the

9 foreground, we see the meadows that I spoke about.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps further zoom in, and could the

11 photograph be put in such a way that we have -- yes.

12 And could you perhaps -- that would certainly assist,

13 Ms. Pilipovic. Could you ask the witness to point at the map from where

14 this view comes and what he sees and what is in the circle so that we are

15 better able to follow his testimony.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Krsman, can you tell us, the area which is now shown on the

18 upper photograph in this way, could you tell us from which positions can

19 you see this area?

20 A. You can see this area from one of the streets across the Bozica

21 pump. Now, I see the lower photograph, so I know what this is about -- I

22 mean, I know which street it is. So it's from one of the streets across

23 the road from the Bozica pump.

24 Q. Bearing in mind that on the map that I showed you you marked the

25 red circle -- that is, you said that between the red circle and points 16

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1 and 17 there was a road between them. Do we see on this map this part of

2 the road?

3 A. As you can see, you can't even see the railway line. You can't

4 see the road. You can't see the junction, and you can't see the other

5 road either. You can't see anything from this position, from position X.

6 It's been -- this photograph was taken from position X. None of what one

7 should be able to see down below can be seen.

8 Q. So you're telling us that this area was photographed from position

9 X.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Do we have a position X yet, Ms. Pilipovic?

11 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I think it can

12 be seen in the other photograph.

13 Q. Is this what you were thinking of?

14 A. Yes, yes. I can see both photographs. I didn't realise that the

15 Chamber couldn't see them.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, where would that be on the map? Because

17 that's what interests me.

18 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll now ask the witness to mark

19 that on the map, to mark the position from which this area was

20 photographed, the area that we can see in the upper photograph.

21 A. It's more or less where this circle is.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Are we looking in the direction of where the circle

23 is, or is the photograph taken from the point where the circle is?

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Krsman, could you explain this to us.

1 A. The first photograph was taken - and I'm referring to this first

2 one that has the circle here - it was photographed from this position X,

3 which has been marked in the second photograph.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you invite the witness to point at the map

5 where that approximately is on the map. So the point from where the

6 photograph was taken.

7 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Krsman, can you point out the position from which this

9 photograph was taken on the map.

10 A. As there aren't any houses that have been marked here, I assume

11 that it is at the position where we can see the number "16" and "17."

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could we then know that the upper

13 photograph, in what direction is that photograph taken from point 16/17?

14 So what way -- in what direction are we looking from that point?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We are looking in the direction of

16 this photograph, which we can see in the first photograph. So from

17 position X, we are looking in the direction of the first photograph.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I want to know in what direction the photograph is

19 taken, the first photograph -- so if you start at the map at 16/17 and

20 would you then please point in the direction we are looking in when we

21 watch this photograph. Yes?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the direction goes from this

23 point, from the number 16/17 in the direction of this circle here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand.

25 Could we now again move to the first photograph. Could we zoom

1 in, please.

2 Is there any structure on this photograph - and just, I'm not

3 asking about structures that are circled - but can you identify any

4 structure on this photograph of which you know where it is on the map?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the first house that you can

6 see next to this power line, this is Veso Bozic's house and every year I

7 went there for his name day. All these houses in the photograph belong to

8 the Bozic family. And the ones further to the right belong to the Tomic

9 family, and so on.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you -- the first house you mentioned, you said

11 the Bozic's house, could you first point at it on the photograph again

12 exactly what house you have in mind. I think you said left from the --

13 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you now point at the map.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first house from this power line

16 here. I said "up to the power line."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please point at it, the house you have in mind

18 exactly.

19 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now point at the map where that house

21 is.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right next to the road.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is now pointing at a position just

24 left from the red circle on the map where a interrupted line ends in a red

25 line, approximately, on the scale of the map, 100 metres left from the red

1 circle.

2 Could you please invite the witness to mark that on the map,

3 Ms. Pilipovic. So Bozic's house you just mentioned, could you --

4 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Yes. Mr. Krsman, could you mark this on the map. Could you mark

6 that house on the map.

7 A. That house has been marked on the real map. But as I really can't

8 tell with precision --

9 Q. I'll later ask you to mark that house on the real map, since you

10 say it has been marked.

11 A. [Marks]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least that's clear now.

13 Ms. Pilipovic, could you try to go through the map as

14 systematically as possible, because it creates a lot of confusion, and the

15 Chamber really wants to understand it. Please proceed.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Krsman, can you take the map D1843, since you said that the

18 map -- the house was marked on that map. And could you mark it on that

19 map so that everything is clear to us.

20 A. Yes. That's probably the case.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom in in the relevant area.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've marked the house with the

23 letter "K" and with a little square.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Thank you.

1 A. Our positions were right next to that house.

2 Q. Thank you. When you told us that this road passed through -- and

3 on this map we can see that it more or less divided these two areas and

4 UNPROFOR used this road. Can you tell us whether UNPROFOR was present in

5 your brigade's zone of responsibility.

6 A. Yes, it was present for a certain period of time in the Rajlovac

7 barracks. But since they were not very secure there -- security was not

8 very good, they had an observation post in Reljevo and UNPROFOR had an

9 office in Upa [phoen], the distribution centre. They would come there and

10 they would make certain suggestions. Truces were discussed, et cetera.

11 Q. You have mentioned the presence of UNPROFOR in the barracks. For

12 the period from September 1992 until August 1994, can you tell us whether

13 UNPROFOR was present in the area of your brigade's zone of responsibility.

14 And if so, when was that?

15 A. UNPROFOR was there all the time for another reason, because UNHCR

16 had its warehouse -- its central warehouse in Rajlovac. It was the

17 central warehouse for Sarajevo. And humanitarian aid would be delivered

18 there. And then the UNHCR and UNPROFOR would provide security for that,

19 et cetera.

20 Q. I don't think I have got a precise answer for that period,

21 September 1992/August 1994. How long was UNPROFOR present in the

22 barracks? I haven't understood you.

23 A. Well, at the beginning of 1992 and 1993, UNPROFOR would visit the

24 barracks. But security was not good in the barracks, and so I don't know

25 where they were positioned. They would come and every day -- every five

1 days they would visit the positions, the command. They would discuss

2 matters, et cetera.

3 Q. During that period, while your positions were being supervised --

4 well, first of all, can you tell me what sort of cooperation did you have

5 with UNPROFOR?

6 A. Well, our cooperation was very good even after the bombing of the

7 NATO forces and the rapid intervention forces. Even after those events,

8 our cooperation was quite correct.

9 Q. At any time during that period, as the company commander, did you

10 receive any kind of protest to the effect that members of your company had

11 been shelling civilians and civilian features?

12 A. Throughout the wartime period - and this can be found in their

13 records for sure - we never received a protest, not a single protest. And

14 what is more, we even delivered a protest to them about enemy action. And

15 there is not a single document in which my company would be accused or the

16 brigade, and that was for the entire wartime period, not just for this

17 period you have mentioned.

18 Q. You told us that there was a distribution centre in Rajlovac and

19 that the UNHCR was present there too and then humanitarian aid was

20 distributed. That is how I've understood your testimony. Can you tell us

21 how and to whom that humanitarian aid was distributed in that distribution

22 centre.

23 A. Humanitarian aid wasn't distributed in the distribution centre,

24 but humanitarian aid arrived there from the airport and then it would be

25 shared out. Part of it would be part for the Serbian Republic of Bosnia

1 and Herzegovina - that's what it was called at the time - and part of it

2 would go to Sarajevo. There would be five trailers that would arrive

3 every day. And then when 20 trailers were there, some would go to the

4 town, some of the goods that had arrived in town would be taken away, and

5 other goods would be taken to the inhabitants in Rajlovac, Vogosca, et

6 cetera.

7 Q. Can you tell us whether humanitarian aid -- how humanitarian aid

8 was distributed in your area.

9 A. Well, humanitarian aid was distributed just like everything else.

10 In local communes, there were cultural centres where humanitarian aid

11 would be distributed on the basis of the lists, and then people would

12 come, mostly women, and they would collect that humanitarian aid without

13 any problems. There was never a problem of any kind.

14 Q. Did you have any information about how humanitarian aid was

15 distributed in the part of Sarajevo that was under the control of the BH

16 army?

17 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, relevance.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic.

19 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence thinks

20 that it's relevant since we're discussing the distribution of humanitarian

21 aid. And since the witness himself said that humanitarian aid was

22 distributed and he told us how this was done, I simply wanted the witness

23 to tell us whether he knew how humanitarian aid was distributed, if he

24 knew anything about this.

25 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please.

1 I think the -- if you think that the distribution of humanitarian

2 aid is relevant, then the way it is done might be relevant as well. But I

3 understand the objection of Mr. Mundis to be that the distribution of

4 humanitarian aid, and therefore the way it was done, is not relevant for

5 the charges brought against the accused.

6 Is that a correct understanding?

7 MR. MUNDIS: That is, Mr. President. And of course the fact that

8 we don't object to the first few questions doesn't necessarily mean that

9 that entire line of questioning would somehow become relevant.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We heard a lot of evidence on the distribution

11 of humanitarian aid, and sometimes it was related to incidents or to going

12 from smuggling to people lining up for receiving humanitarian aid. So

13 there was always a clear link between, I would say, things that are in

14 the -- that we are focussing on and that are very much in dispute. I

15 think the question here is whether in general what is the relevance of

16 this information.

17 Let's first wait and see how the witness answers that question,

18 and let's then -- perhaps you could then use the break in order to find

19 out what the relevance would be of any further questions in this

20 direction.

21 So the question was how the humanitarian aid was distributed.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it was distributed in

23 the same way that it was distributed for us.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please, Ms. Pilipovic, during the

25 break consider just for yourself how important details on how humanitarian

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1 aid was distributed on one side of the line and the other side of the

2 line. We'll then hear from you and your next questions.

3 We'll adjourn until five minutes to 6.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Just to inform the parties, the draft that was

7 prepared -- but perhaps we should not deal with it in open session. But

8 the document indicated yesterday is available for the parties.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, please proceed.

10 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just need one

11 further clarification, and then I will have finished with my examination.

12 Could the witness be shown photograph 1812A.

13 Q. Mr. Krsman, you marked in the left-hand corner next to the column

14 the Bozic house, and you also marked the Bozic house on the town map. And

15 on map 1884, where incident 16 and 17 have been marked, you also marked

16 the Bozic house.

17 In the upper photograph, bearing in mind the map and the town map,

18 would it be logical for you for the road to be seen, the main road, in

19 this photograph too?

20 A. Well, it would be quite logical for one to be able to see the road

21 and the railway line and everything else that one would have seen from

22 this position to this position, 16 and 17.

23 Q. Can you explain to us, bearing in mind that in the upper

24 photograph you can't see the road -- in your opinion, from which position

25 was this photograph taken, the upper photograph?

1 MR. MUNDIS: Objection, asked and answered, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, the witness has two times answered

3 that question. So, therefore, it's unclear to me what -- is there -- if

4 you would like to explain, we should do that in the absence of the

5 witness. But the question as such without further explanation is not

6 admissible. But you're invited to give any explanation why the question

7 should be put to the witness for the third time, if there's any reason to

8 do so, but that should then be done in the absence of the witness.

9 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted the

10 witness to identify the road, to tell us whether the main road could be

11 seen in this photograph.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness has testified that it would be

13 quite logical to see the main road, which I understood to say that you do

14 not see the main road. I mean, otherwise, it's not a matter of logic but,

15 rather, a question of pointing at it. So if you want to seek further

16 information in that respect, you're free to do so.

17 And again, if there's a good reason to put the question for the

18 third time to the witness, you're invited to explain it but not in the

19 presence of the witness.

20 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I just wanted to

21 show the photograph to the witness, a photograph in which according to

22 what the witness pointed out to on the map and -- on map 1884, where he

23 marked the location of Bozica Kuca, Bozica houses. I wanted to show him

24 the photograph where he marked the Bozica house. I just wanted to avoid

25 any confusion and he confirmed that it should be possible to see the road.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then try to --

2 Witness, may I ask you: I took it from your answer that you do

3 not see the main road. Have you any explanation on why you do not see the

4 main road on this photograph?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think the photograph was

6 taken in such a way that the road can't be seen, but you can see the

7 facility which is further down below in this circle, and I think that this

8 was done on purpose.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether it was done on purpose or not is a

10 different matter. Is your explanation that the view on the road is taken

11 by the hill and the slope which appear in the foreground? Is it because

12 of the hill that you can't see the road, or might be just down the hill?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the difference of

14 altitude was 200 metres. That's perhaps the reason for which you can't

15 see the road. But I can't say anything for certain because you can't see

16 the road and it should be possible to see it. You can't see the railway

17 line, and it should be possible to see it too. It's up to the Chamber to

18 decide what is at stake. I really don't know.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And then you said it was done on purpose. Could you

20 explain what you meant by that.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I have understood this correctly,

22 attempts are being made to prove that we fired from this location to

23 another location, at another position, that the Serbs fired from one

24 position at another position. Naturally it should be visible. And in the

25 first photograph, visibility is good, when you have a look at the first

1 photograph. But as I know that area very well, I really don't know how it

2 was photographed, where it was photographed from. So this is why I

3 assumed that the photographer went down below to photograph it from such a

4 position.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If this photograph was taken for that purpose in your

6 view, that is, that positions held by your forces are visible and that it

7 is in support of allegations that your forces might have fired, would that

8 structure in the circle, would that be in the area held by your forces?

9 So the structure in the circle.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't fire from a facility

11 inside this circle. Absolutely not. Our forces were at least 150 metres

12 behind these houses.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You say this is not in the territory held by your

14 forces.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This circle isn't in the

16 territory that was held by our forces.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Since you expressed as your view that deliberately

18 this photograph was taken to support that your forces might be held

19 responsible for whatever has happened on this place, could you tell us by

20 whose forces that area in the circle was held, if it was not yours. Or

21 was it held by no party?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That territory wasn't held by any

23 party, because it was impossible to survive there.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, if there are any further

25 questions, Ms. Pilipovic.

1 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mundis, is the Prosecution ready to cross-examine

3 the witness?

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no questions for

5 this witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Nieto-Navia has one or more questions for you.

9 Questioned by the Court:

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to

11 continue with the photograph, please.

12 I know that we can't see the road, the main road, but where it

13 should be, where it is supposed to be the main road in that photograph?

14 A. Since this photograph was taken from a hill, I'm really not an

15 expert, so I can't know what the slope is, what the slope of the hill is.

16 I can't know everything. But the road, according to the map -- if this is

17 the place, and it's more or less here, it should be in front of this

18 position. There should be the railway line first and then the road and

19 then it climbs up towards the hill.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: In front of which position?

21 A. I don't understand the question.

22 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: You said "it should be in front of this

23 position." I am asking which position are you referring to?

24 A. I said that this little house was in front of our position, and I

25 don't know what this thing in the circle is. In front of the photograph

1 there should be an open space and then there would be the railway line

2 that goes to the city, and then after the railway line the road should be

3 there, and then the ground slopes upwards towards the position indicated

4 by the number "16" and "17." Why it's not there, I don't know.

5 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Could the witness be shown map 1844, I think

6 is the map. That one, yes.

7 The grey line in which the red spot 16/17 is marked on that map,

8 is that the road?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: But that road cannot be seen in the photograph

11 either; right?

12 A. If you're referring to this road --

13 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Yes.

14 A. -- That descends from number 16 and 17, you can only see 4 or 5

15 metres of it in the photograph.

16 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like to see the photograph again.

17 A. You see, you can see the road which is descending here. I don't

18 know how long it is, but you can only see a small part of the road, if

19 that's the road and if it was photographed from there.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Would you point again at the place of the

21 road.

22 A. See, here, this supporting wall -- this retaining wall. You can

23 see very well how this is asphalt and how the road descends. And of

24 course it goes up too. Now, again, once again I say that is the place

25 from which the photograph was taken, because this photograph shows that

1 the road also climbs up. Therefore, it also ascends.

2 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: I would like to see the first photograph

3 again.

4 The lower part of the photograph is part of a road?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you. No further questions.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge El Mahdi has also one or more questions

9 for you.

10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to seek two small

12 clarifications from you. First -- the first has to do with civilian

13 targets. You answered a question that was asked of you, and I will quote

14 you in English: [In English] " There were no civilians." And then

15 further on you said, and I quote: [In English] "Considered the mosque to

16 be a civilian target. But as there was a tank and a gun, it was a

17 legitimate military target." [Interpretation] So my question is as

18 follows: Did you fire at the mosque?

19 Let me explain. I'd really like to understand exactly what you

20 are saying. You are telling us that the mosque -- since there was a tank

21 there and there was a gun there, near the mosque, and that therefore you

22 did not consider the mosque as a civilian target. Am I to take this, that

23 you considered it as a military target, as a military facility and

24 therefore a legitimate target for an attack?

25 A. Well, you can see on the photograph number 2 this mosque, which

1 you can see in the background, if I can point at it. This is the mosque I

2 was referring to. It's here. Don't you see it? So it is at the highest

3 point of Sokolje. It is at the highest point on the Sokolje. There was a

4 tank next to that mosque, and it was quite natural for us to fire at the

5 tank which was next to the mosque. So it was a legitimate target,

6 regardless of where it was. In this case, it was next to the mosque, but

7 we were not aiming at the mosque but at the tank which was next to the

8 mosque, and it was quite a legitimate target. The Muslims wanted to

9 represent it as if we were targeting the mosque, but we were not targeting

10 the mosque. We were targeting the tank next to the mosque, and the same

11 holds true of the gun.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, you agree, or is it

13 that you want to say that the mosque as such was not a military target but

14 that you wanted to hit the tank which was near the mosque? And did then

15 that your mortars -- that your projectiles simply miss the target and hit

16 the mosque by mistake? Was it a tank which was stationary, which never

17 moved, which never made any manoeuvres?

18 A. No, it wasn't stationary. It manoeuvred. And I told you, when

19 their attacks were, it would come then. But the -- our devices are all

20 very precise, and we didn't often go off the mark, but sometimes it

21 happened because of the weather conditions or something. It didn't happen

22 often, but it did.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And you used, what, mortars or

24 what kind of weapons? Do you remember a specific case when you opened the

25 fire on the tank which was stationed and which opened fire on you and the

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1 tank which was very near the mosque?

2 A. A mortar is never used against heavy weapons. The mortar is used

3 to destroy enemy troops. So mortars are never used against tanks. We

4 used the recoilless gun against the tank or a Howitzer if possible. But

5 we didn't have it all the time. So as a rule we used the recoilless gun,

6 and it is a very precise weapon.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very good.

8 Did you know, were you informed, did you know, were you aware of

9 the provisions of the Geneva Conventions?

10 A. Yes. Every morning during the briefings - I've already said

11 that - we received instructions not to target civilians. But truth to

12 tell, I am not familiar with all the provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

13 But I am aware of the basic principles of the law of war.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 My last question is: Was Bacici in your area, in the area that

16 was held by your troops, or was Bacici on the opposite side?

17 A. I drew on the map the territory that we held. We did not occupy

18 anything, that is Serb land on which we lived. So it is our private

19 property. All that I drew on the land is the property of Republika Srpska

20 and is Serb land, and Serbs lived there. That is, we had lived there for

21 more than two, three or more hundred years, it varies from family to

22 family.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. I understand you. But my

24 question is: Bacici -- Bacici, was it under your control?

25 A. Bacici was in the interspace. That is, before the war, Bacici

1 belonged to us. But as it could not be defended efficiently, nobody could

2 survive there, we retreated from there to those houses.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Right. But

4 listen to me. Was Bacici in the territory -- in your territory and then

5 you withdrew from there and left it? And that was when, more or less,

6 that you withdrew from there, that you left this part of the territory?

7 A. Well, no, not approximately. On the 9th of May, 1992 exactly.

8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] 1992?

9 A. Yes. As I have said, as immediately after the first attack

10 against the Rajlovac barracks on the 8th of May, this population fled from

11 there and we left it because it was simply impossible to defend. It was

12 indefencible.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Right. But you are talking about

14 the time before May 1992. That is, the lines were not the same, were

15 they?

16 A. No. On the map I showed you that we helped -- not helped but that

17 people lived there right up next to the Bozica pump. And that also

18 covered the territory of Bacici. The man went to work. It was his petrol

19 station.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But was it until May, until the

21 8th of May, 1992? Is that it?

22 A. Yes. And on the 8th of May, when we were attacked, it was the

23 frontal attack against this territory, as I have said. People withdrew.

24 It didn't matter the financial resources -- the material resources. What

25 matters is life. And that is why we withdrew and that remained. So that

1 was the area between us until the end of the war. It was no man's land.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, witness.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well.

4 The first question is about refugees in the barracks. You told us

5 about them. Were there many refugees in the barracks?

6 A. There were waves of refugees coming to the barracks, that is,

7 whenever there would be an exodus of Serbs from different parts of

8 Sarajevo, large numbers of people would arrive in the barracks.

9 Therefore, Brijesce, Bujakov Potok, Pofalici. From Pofalici, 300 people

10 arrived on -- in a single day.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you where they came from. I asked you

12 whether there were many. And I think you responded that in the

13 affirmative.

14 Were the barracks big enough to house them all?

15 A. [Previous interpretation continues] ... Did not stay. Not all of

16 them.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But were the barracks big enough to house all

18 these refugees?

19 A. Yes. It could accommodate 10.000 cadets before the war, which

20 means that it could accommodate a large number of the population.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And would -- do you have a guess of an estimate of

22 how many refugees there were?

23 A. It must have been not less than 3.000 refugees who had passed

24 through the barracks and about 300 of them stayed on.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were they in specific parts of the barracks, or

1 were they all over the barracks?

2 A. In the beginning of the war, the refugees were all over. Simply

3 because people were inexperienced. But as they began to die, we

4 transferred them to other buildings were not directly exposed to the front

5 line. But in the early days they were all over, and I think we paid that

6 dearly.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be shown again the Exhibit

8 1843, the map.

9 Could you tell us where the refugees were concentrated. What part

10 of the barracks?

11 A. See here, this is the main road which goes through the barracks.

12 You can see it is drawn here. Behind it were the refugees. And in front

13 of this main road was the canteen, where the refugees had their meals and

14 the troops later on, so in front of the road. All these are dormitories

15 because this was the training centre. And they were in these buildings

16 here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was the same canteen used for the soldiers and

18 the refugees, or had you -- did you have more canteens?

19 A. It was the same canteen. And for the duration of the war, we all

20 had our meals there. But I said that when the war started, the real war,

21 later on, after the army was formed, nobody could be considered a refugee.

22 So they were all either soldiers or people doing something with the army.

23 So until June 1992, we were no longer refugees. We were an army then.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said, as far as I remember, the children

25 were not there any more after a certain moment. And women? Or did

1 I -- I'm not quite sure that I -- women would stay in the barracks? Is

2 that a correct understanding of your testimony, while children were

3 transferred to another place?

4 A. Naturally, elderly women left. Women with small children left.

5 But there were women who worked in the kitchen, in the laundry, and so on

6 and so forth. They stayed on. There were also military conscripts. And

7 it only so happened that they found refuge there. But otherwise, they

8 were military conscripts just like the rest of us.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd say the women remaining in the barracks

10 were all militarily active, either in the kitchen or whatever way, but in

11 order to support the military.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then some last few questions for you.

14 Could perhaps the photograph be put on the ELMO again.

15 On the upper photograph, the structure in a circle, in a black

16 circle, do you recognise what it is?

17 A. I do.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you be able to point at the map or the maps,

19 D1844 - let's start with D1844 - the exact location of that building after

20 you've told us what it is.

21 A. I've already said. It's a structure in the field. Perhaps it was

22 a tool shed. Perhaps it was a hen coop or something. I don't know what

23 it is. I mean, it is not habitable, not for humans, that is.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please on the map indicate where it

25 is.

1 A. This structure is somewhere in this red circle, perhaps -- perhaps

2 a bit forward. But roughly there somewhere. Because this map is not a

3 good map. That is, the scale has not been transferred accurately.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is the other map better? Could you indicate on the

5 other map where that building is?

6 A. Well, it is roughly -- roughly, it is here, where these two lines

7 meet. Roughly here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you now take the photograph again.

9 You're now looking down the hill, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Does the structure appear to the right or to the left

12 of the house you indicated on the map by "K"?

13 A. Which house?

14 JUDGE ORIE: The house in the circle -- or the structure in the

15 circle, I should say. The house you said that you -- on the map you

16 indicated that a house -- you put a "K" on it. I've forgotten exactly

17 what the name is. Wasn't it Bozic's house, the house just left from the

18 electricity pole on this picture. You indicated that it would be at a

19 position you marked with "K" on the map. Is the structure in the circle

20 to the right or to the left of that house?

21 A. This is to the left.

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at the photograph, at Bozic's house,

23 could you please point at it again.

24 A. Bozica houses are all behind this structure, which is in the

25 circle. So this is all behind it.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Didn't you point at a house to the left of the pole

2 when you previously indicated where Bozic's house was?

3 A. Well, I've already told you that I couldn't see any houses to the

4 left, if I know what is left. There are no houses to the left of the

5 electric pole, from the electric pole.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You pointed -- could you please point again at what

7 you pointed at before as left from the electric pole would be Bozic's

8 house. Could you point at it again.

9 A. No, I was talking about this as the electric pole. So to the

10 right of it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you said left from the pole, and I

12 think you meant to say left from the -- what appears to be a wooden pole

13 and not a metal pole. Could you point at it again, the -- could you first

14 point at the pole, to make sure that we have the same pole in mind.

15 A. [Indicates]

16 JUDGE ORIE: That is -- seems to be a metal -- metallic electrical

17 pole.

18 A. That's right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you now point at the pole you pointed at

20 earlier, which is the pole closest to the position where the photograph

21 was taken and which has the appearance of a wooden pole rather than an

22 electric pole, in the foreground. Could you point at that.

23 A. This pole here, which is right next -- below the road, a metre or

24 two. And that is why I said that the photograph was taken from this angle

25 on purpose.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, that's what you told us.

2 Could you then, please, again point at Bozic's house, as you did

3 before. You said that it was to the left of that pole, the last pole you

4 indicated. Could you please point at it again, Bozic's house.

5 A. Here it is and all these houses here.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you earlier pointed at Bozic's house, did

7 you point at all the houses or just the house left to the wooden pole?

8 A. I said that all these houses belonged to the Bozic family, and

9 this one is the one that I visited and I know which of the Bozics it

10 belongs to.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the one you marked on the map?

12 A. Well, it's not shown on the map, but I can say approximately. Of

13 course, I can be mistaken because there are no houses indicated on the

14 map.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You marked the place where that house was on the map;

16 is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, could you again tell me whether from this angle

19 of view the structure in the circle is to the right or to the left of

20 Bozic's house, that part of Bozic's house of which you know who lives in

21 it or lived in it. Is it to the right or is it to the left?

22 A. Well, judging by this photograph, then this building is to the

23 right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

25 A. On this photograph.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said -- could perhaps the witness be shown

2 1844 again.

3 You said that the structure that was in a circle would have to

4 have been situated in the red circle on this map. Do you remember that

5 you told us this?

6 A. Yes, I said more or less. If -- I mean, this circle is very big,

7 so it could be in the centre of the circle or it could be at its

8 left -- on the left-hand side. So I said that roughly this is the house

9 and roughly this is somewhere here. But it's somewhere there, more or

10 less.

11 JUDGE ORIE: If you would look from -- if you would take the

12 position at 16/17. If you would look at Bozic's house as you indicated it

13 on the map, the small rectangle. Is the circle from that point of view to

14 the left or to the right of Bozic's house?

15 A. If we look at the map, it's to the right. But in the photograph,

16 as I said, the photograph had been taken on purpose from that position.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked to tell me -- I asked you to tell me

18 whether it would be on the left or on the right viewed from position

19 indicated by 16/17. So you'd have to turn the map.

20 A. I can see it in the map. As I said, as I described it, to the

21 right of Bozic's house. But in the photograph, it's to the left. And I

22 said why it was as it was in the photograph, and if necessary I can

23 explain this to you if you put the photograph back on the ELMO.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so. Explain to us.

25 A. If the photograph had really been taken from position X, then the

1 containers down below would be visible. They can't be seen in the first

2 photograph. If it had been photographed from X, these containers here

3 would have been visible. So he took up a position to the left on purpose

4 so that the photograph would represent what it represented. I can't see

5 what other explanation could be provided.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ...

7 A. I don't know what the purpose was, but the photograph wasn't taken

8 from position X.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is it taken from that same road near to where the

10 containers are, but, say, within a distance of 10, 15, 20 metres?

11 A. Well, perhaps even more.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is it taken from the same road as the road that is

13 shown on the lower photograph?

14 A. As I've already said, first of all you can't see the railway line

15 and then you can't see the main road, so -- I know this area, but I didn't

16 take this photograph, so I can't claim that it was taken from the same

17 road. Perhaps it was; perhaps it wasn't. The person who took the

18 photograph must know this.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm just asking you whether you're

20 suggesting that it was not taken from that road or that you don't know.

21 You know the area. That's the reason why I'm asking you.

22 A. I think the photograph was taken from the same road but not from

23 the position that has been marked with "X."

24 JUDGE ORIE: Lower down or higher up?

25 A. Lower down.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

2 A. A lot lower than position X.

3 JUDGE ORIE: A lot? How much? You say a lot. How much?

4 A. I'm not an expert, but 50 metres lower down for sure because the

5 road descends.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answers.

7 Judge Nieto-Navia has another question for you as well.

8 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 You recall that you mentioned how the humanitarian aid was

10 distributed.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Well, I have a question: The places where

13 humanitarian aid was distributed, did they change from time to time or

14 were always the same places?

15 A. There was no reason to make any changes. Throughout the wartime

16 period, the places at which humanitarian aid was distributed never

17 changed.

18 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no further questions from the parties.

20 I'd like to thank you, Mr. Krsman, for coming to The Hague. We

21 know that it takes some time and it's a great distance. And I'd like to

22 thank you that you've answered all the questions that have been put to

23 you. And I wish that you'll have a safe trip home again.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of

1 the courtroom.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please guide us through

4 the documents tendered in respect of this witness.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1843, map marked by witness; Exhibit

6 D1844, map, sniping incident 16 and 17 marked by witness.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Pilipovic, it's almost time. I don't expect the

10 witness still to be there for the last ten minutes, although it's contrary

11 to my -- the habit of this Chamber to use the time fully. Your next

12 witness would be -- on the list I see that it would be Professor Cavoski.

13 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Professor Kosta Cavoski.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's not wise to start with him for the last

15 ten minutes.

16 No formal decision has yet been given on the time, but perhaps we

17 should do that at least in respect of the first witness.

18 You just asked for more time, Mr. Mundis, or at least Mr. Ierace

19 did so, one hour and a half. But it was compensated by less time for

20 another expert witness. It is a background witness. The balance between

21 the time used by the party that called the witness and that cross-examined

22 the witness, especially for the background witnesses, was far in favour of

23 the cross-examining party when the Prosecution's case was presented. The

24 Chamber allows one hour and a half for cross-examination.

25 And Ms. Pilipovic, I see that I think you claimed also one hour

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1 and a half for Professor Cavoski. Is that right? Because I think the

2 Chamber granted until now - although no formal decision has been taken on

3 your request to reconsider - but that was not in respect to this witness,

4 as far as I remember. Or was it? You asked for four hours, I think, or

5 six hours? Six hours.

6 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, your decision has to

7 do with the expert who will be discussing the background. These are

8 Professors Kosta Cavoski, Mrs. Jelena Guskova, and Mr. Slavenko Terzic.

9 You allowed three hours in your decision. And the decision was to use

10 these three hours for those three experts.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have on my list -- but that's just a

12 schedule. I don't -- I take it that it's prepared on the basis of your

13 meetings that you would need one hour and a half for Professor Cavoski,

14 one hour and a half for expert witness Guskova, and ten minutes for expert

15 witness Terzic -- is that? Three hours and ten minutes.

16 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start on the basis of that schedule, at least

18 as far as Professor Cavoski is concerned. And the Prosecution announced

19 that they would need one hour and a half for cross-examination as well.

20 Ms. Pilipovic, just for -- to avoid whatever misunderstanding.

21 Professor Cavoski will testify in B/C/S? Is my understanding correct?

22 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow afternoon, same courtroom,

25 quarter past 2.00.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 6.54 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

3 the 6th day of February, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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