Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19959

1 Friday, 21 February 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would

6 you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-98-29-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Stanislav Galic.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I am informed that

10 Mr. Piletta-Zanin would like to address the Chamber and I see that Mr.

11 Ierace is on his feet. Since I've got no idea what it is about -- I

12 wonder.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I am on my

14 feet to address you, it is for technical reasons and I need to add that

15 the Defence is not behaving "goody goody" as they say in English, but we

16 are on our feet because of "goody" as that was mentioned yesterday.

17 I am saying this because the witness will go back and perhaps we

18 shall not be able to show what we wanted to show --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, let's try to cut it short. If

20 you want to tell us that goody in your view was relating to the question

21 rather than anything else I would like to invite Mr. Ierace to check the

22 transcript very carefully and then see whether he could agree. I have

23 clearly in my mind also the way in which it was said. He said, that's a

24 goody. And he --

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, indeed

Page 19960

1 Mr. President and that is the case and that is why I am on my feet. I

2 thought I would see it in the copy but I didn't see but nevertheless, we

3 remember it. If that was the case, in view of this witness personality,

4 one could admit that he wasn't wrong, that would be -- it would be a

5 matter of courtesy of politeness to admit that he was not wrong.

6 Secondly, what I wanted to say, we received from the Prosecution copies of

7 the tape but after we received the black box and the grey box, the images

8 are completely impossible to see it is completely illegible except for the

9 first two segments, all the rest is completely useless. We simply

10 cannot -- we cannot use them. We cannot work with them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it was my recollection that after the

12 witness said "That's a goody," that he one line later said "That wasn't a

13 good day." Therefore -- and it's understanding of the Chamber that the

14 witness referred when he said, "That's a goody," to the question.

15 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think it might have something to do

16 with the vernacular of antillians. My interpretation of what the witness

17 meant by those words in terms of their colloquial use is to paraphrase,

18 this was an excellent example, a goody is an excellent example.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps an excellent example of a very bad day

20 because that's what he said one line later so whether he said it's good

21 that you ask me or that is a good example, but your questions seem to

22 indicate that that's a goody refers to a good event which it is at

23 least not the interpretation of the Chamber. Would you please keep that

24 in mind and --

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I might add that it was in the

Page 19961

1 circumstances a little bizarre in terms of the choice of words by the

2 witness, which is why I drew it to his attention and not surprisingly, he

3 withdrew it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's -- it needs no further -- I mean

5 if it was whatever it was, whether it was a comment on the question, I

6 think the witness should refrain from commenting on whether the question

7 is a good one or a bad one. I think the matter has been sufficiently

8 clarified. If necessary, I'll come back to it.

9 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, this is -- we are talking about the way a

10 witness is approached. I said I'll come back to it with the witness

11 and -- yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I am talking about what the

13 Prosecution said. The Prosecution says why it was withdrawn but that is

14 not true, the witness said, no I did not say that and if I did then

15 I apologise and I withdraw it. His first reaction was I did not say that

16 and one cannot interpret at this point in time the word used by a witness

17 and I'd really like -- I'd appreciate it if Mr. Ierace would have this in

18 mind and take note of what the witness says. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The matter has been sufficiently clarified by now by

20 observation of the Chamber, response of Mr. Ierace and the observations

21 by the Defence. Is there any other issue?

22 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

24 MR. IERACE: Might we move into private session.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We will turn into private session.

Page 19962

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19963

1 [Private session]

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 19963 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19964

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 19964 to 19967 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19968

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 [The witness entered court]

12 WITNESS: RICHARD PAUL GRAY [Resumed]

13 [Realtime transcript read in error "David Gray"]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gray.

15 THE WITNESS: Good morning, how are you?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Gray, may I remind you that you are

17 still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning

18 of your testimony and Mr. Ierace will now resume the cross-examination.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Ierace: [Continued]

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Mr. Gray?

21 A. Good morning. How are you?

22 Q. Good, thank you.

23 A. Good.

24 Q. To start, did you check your statement to see the date that you

25 visited the school of theology in Nedzarici?

Page 19969

1 A. I did last night and I'm sorry I can't tell you the precise date.

2 Q. There's no reference in your statement to the school of theology,

3 is there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Yesterday, you told us --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and witness please make a

7 break between question and answer.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, I will.

9 THE WITNESS: Yes.

10 MR. IERACE:

11 Q. Yesterday, you told us there was a written agreement between the

12 warring parties that Lukavica barracks was not a legitimate target and

13 you said that it was part of the heavy weapons agreement; do you remember

14 saying that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Have you checked, not that I asked you, but have you checked the

17 text of that agreement to see if that is correct?

18 A. No, I haven't.

19 Q. All right.

20 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Mr. Ierace, I would like to note that in

21 line -- page 8, line 8, I think is gone now, says David Gray and your

22 name is Richard Paul, am I wrong?

23 THE WITNESS: I'm very sorry.

24 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Your name is Richard Paul?

25 THE WITNESS: Correct.

Page 19970

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19971

1 JUDGE NIETO-NAVIA: Not David. Okay.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to be an error in the transcript. It is

3 Mr. Richard Gray who testifies.

4 MR. IERACE:

5 Q. During the first break, would you mind checking the text of those

6 agreements to see if there is any reference, not now, and indeed, I think

7 there are four agreements, there is the written agreement between the UN

8 and the Bosnian Serb forces in relation to the airport, secondly in

9 relation to heavy weapons. There is a written agreement with the

10 Presidency forces in relation to the airport, and a separate agreement in

11 relation to heavy weapons; is that correct, four altogether?

12 A. There were -- I mean there were -- there were agreements between

13 the airport agreement that was the very first agreement. The second

14 agreement was for the concentration of heavy weapons and the support of

15 the airport agreement.

16 Q. Okay. Do you have copies of all four of those agreements that

17 you can check during the first break?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. All right. Now, yesterday, I showed you a video and perhaps

20 Mr. President for the benefit of the accused, we might reshow it now that

21 there is a transcript. Might I just check if the interpreting booths

22 have copies of the transcript?

23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we do.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. In that case, if the witness's monitor could be placed on the

Page 19972

1 correct channel we could replay the clip from yesterday and as we do it

2 this time, Mr. Gray, could you take particular note of the appearance on

3 the video at any stage of General MacKenzie.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Ierace, the booth indicates they have three

5 tapes, they are unsure which tape to play at this time.

6 MR. IERACE: The tape is the one which doesn't have any markings

7 and it does not have any writing on its spine. It's a tape which

8 consists of I think nine clips. I think each of the other two tapes has

9 some rough writing on the spine. If the booth is unsure then perhaps I

10 could quickly look at them and in the meantime move on to another topic.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, you are requested to assist the

13 technicians or you can go into the booth and assist them in finding the

14 right tape.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the

16 meantime, in the meantime, could we benefit from this interval to ask for

17 the Prosecution to give us a legible copy of their tape because we cannot

18 use ours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the Prosecution is not at this

20 point --

21 THE REGISTRAR: We have French interpretation.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We have French interpretation on channel 4.

23 MR. IERACE: My apologies, Mr. President, I think we've now

24 located it.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed. May the tape be played.

Page 19973

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. IERACE: That can be stopped, thank you and perhaps the

3 screen could be put back on transcript.

4 Q. Yesterday, you said that --

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] The French booth,

6 Mr. President, the last sentence wasn't translated, thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You mean the name of the -- what Mr. Ierace said

8 or --

9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It's just been translated

10 now, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- you are referring to line -- that can

12 be stopped?

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, to the

14 French booth, all the text that we heard, the entire text wasn't

15 translated there was a part that was omitting. This is why I intervened

16 briefly.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... you said the

18 last line, the last line I heard was the name of the interviewer, the

19 BBC, that was the line and you really felt it necessary to interrupt for

20 that instead of putting that on a piece of paper, Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

21 Then take five minutes to think over what the task is in this Court.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE:

24 Q. Yesterday, you told us that when the second round of mortars, the

25 second group fell, you were inside in the conference room, what was

Page 19974

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19975

1 happening in the conference room?

2 A. They were having a meeting.

3 Q. I apologise for talking over you. They were having a meeting,

4 who was having a meeting?

5 A. The foreign secretary and Mr. Izetbegovic.

6 Q. So you were in the meeting between them. Does that appear on the

7 video at any stage?

8 A. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. They concentrated on the principal people in the actual meeting.

11 I was sitting to one side out of the picture.

12 Q. We saw what appeared to be a press conference, whereabouts did

13 that take place?

14 A. The press conference I believe took place in the PTT.

15 Q. Do you recall seeing General MacKenzie on the tape during that

16 conference?

17 A. No, I don't.

18 Q. Do you recall seeing General MacKenzie on the tape following Sir

19 Douglas Hurd's arrival at the airport?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Do you still have with you the excerpt of General MacKenzie's

22 book that you looked at yesterday? Might it be shown to the witness,

23 it's P3778.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, I saw that you have a copy yourself as

25 well but with some markings on it -- we see yellow markings, we'd prefer

Page 19976

1 you use the copy given to you by the usher.

2 THE WITNESS: Okay.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you need to consult your own markings then please

4 ask.

5 MR. IERACE:

6 Q. Did you place those yellow markings on your copy overnight?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. Do I take it that you read it very carefully after court last

9 night?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Did you notice when you read it that General MacKenzie said in

12 his published account, that he didn't go to the Presidency?

13 A. That's true.

14 Q. Do you recall yesterday you told us a number of times that

15 General MacKenzie accompanied Sir Douglas Hurd to the Presidency?

16 A. That was my recollection at the time, but having read the account,

17 and having seen the videotape again, General MacKenzie normally travelled

18 in a VBL which is a small --

19 Q. I'll stop you there, Mr. Gray. You did tell us a number of times

20 yesterday, didn't you, that General MacKenzie accompanied Sir Douglas Hurd

21 to the Presidency?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. Yesterday, when you told us that, you sincerely believed it,

24 didn't you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19977

1 Q. We spoke about the pandemonium which, on your account, followed

2 the two mortar shells that landed immediately before Sir Douglas Hurd and

3 General MacKenzie arrived at the Presidency and how Sir Douglas Hurd was

4 shepherded or moved through that pandemonium into the Presidency; do you

5 remember that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Now, on the video, we see two injured people following

8 the mortar attack and we hear Martin Bell say that there were five injured

9 as a result of the attack. He doesn't mention any people killed, does he?

10 A. No, he does not.

11 Q. And we don't see any people killed, do we?

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection, but I can't --

15 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... might not

16 reflect what is in view of you to be seen on the video?

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, but what I

18 can say is that death is not always immediate.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was whether any people killed were

20 to be seen on the video. Please proceed, Mr. Ierace. The objection is

21 denied.

22 MR. IERACE:

23 Q. We don't see any people killed on the video, do we?

24 A. I think you actually do, but they may be shown as being wounded

25 but the man that was lying on the ground was -- he was basically dead.

Page 19978

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19979

1 Q. I see. The two -- all right. Do you remember yesterday that you

2 told us that there were people who were killed on the spot?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. All right. And if that happened, it is odd that Martin Bell

5 didn't say as much, isn't it?

6 A. The media put their own interpretation on many events that

7 happened in Sarajevo.

8 Q. Mr. Gray, Martin Bell was a very experienced war correspondent,

9 wasn't he?

10 A. Yes, he was and you can see where he gets wounded on one of the

11 videotapes.

12 Q. Mm-hm. Are you telling us that he was prejudiced?

13 A. I'm saying that as a media person, he put his own interpretation

14 on many things that he saw like many, many other media people who were in

15 Sarajevo and if you want to go through all the tapes, I will tell you

16 what is actually the facts and what is the interpretation placed by the

17 media on events and --

18 Q. Sir if you could stop for a minute, please. This isn't a matter

19 of interpretation. Your intimating that Martin Bell deliberately did not

20 report that people were killed at the Presidency, aren't you?

21 A. That is true.

22 Q. Yeah. Other BBC journalists included Kate Adie who was in

23 Sarajevo; is that correct?

24 A. True.

25 Q. Did she take up duties after Martin Bell himself fell victim to a

Page 19980

1 shelling?

2 A. There were a number of BBC journalists who were in Sarajevo at

3 the time, but I believe that Kate Adie -- it was probably yes. I mean I

4 wasn't following who was reporting on things. I mean but I believe Kate

5 Adie was one of the people that took up the --

6 Q. All right.

7 A. Okay?

8 Q. Yeah. Now, have you read Martin Bell's book on his time in

9 Sarajevo entitled "In harm's way"?

10 A. No, I have not.

11 Q. On the video, we saw the procession of APCs downtown to the

12 Presidency; do you recall that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Yesterday, you told us that, indeed a number of times, that when

15 a dignitary who arrived in Sarajevo, the UN was very careful to not

16 disclose that dignitary's programme with one side to the other side; do

17 you remember saying that?

18 A. True.

19 Q. You were intimating that the Bosnian Serb side were not informed

20 by the UN as to where Sir Douglas Hurd would be travelling in Sarajevo and

21 certainly not informed as to the time that he would be arriving at the

22 Presidency, weren't you?

23 A. True.

24 Q. You were intimating that therefore, the Bosnian Serbs, their

25 forces could not be responsible for the mortaring, weren't you?

Page 19981

1 A. True.

2 Q. The Bosnian Serbs, I take it, were informed that Sir Douglas Hurd

3 would be in Sarajevo that day; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Were they given a time and place for their people to meet up with

6 Sir Douglas Hurd?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember now what time that was?

9 A. No, I don't, but they met up, I'm fairly certain, at the airport.

10 Q. You mean before or after he went to the Presidency?

11 A. Before.

12 Q. Sir, you wouldn't have to be a genius to deduce that following

13 that meeting, Sir Douglas Hurd was likely to meet the president and that

14 that meeting would probably take place, as others did, at the Presidency;

15 do you agree?

16 A. I agree but some meetings actually took place at the PTT.

17 Q. And in order to work out where the meeting was to take place,

18 from the hills surrounding Sarajevo, one only had to observe the

19 procession of UN vehicles, didn't one?

20 A. You could have done that, but I mean I was in UN vehicles as

21 well, I mean and I preceded Douglas Hurd.

22 Q. Well, Mr. Gray, with the greatest of respect, what difference

23 does that make?

24 A. It means that if you look at the landscape of Sarajevo, and you

25 look at the visibility of what you can see from the surrounding

Page 19982

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19983

1 countryside looking down into Sarajevo, you could see that I went in an

2 APC to the Presidency --

3 Q. We don't have a lot of time, Mr. Gray, let me stop you --

4 A. Douglas Hurd was delayed in his arrival at the Presidency and

5 that is quite clearly shown in the excerpt that you've given us, and so

6 yes, there was a convoy of APCs but I go back to my primary point about

7 this whole incident which is that I was standing at the very front door

8 of the Presidency and I heard the primary --

9 Q. I'll come to that, Mr. Gray, please stop. You don't dispute, do

10 you, that the procession could be seen from the hills?

11 A. It probably could be seen.

12 Q. Thank you. Stop. Now, did it occur to you that the Bosnian Serb

13 forces most probably had individuals in the city who were able to

14 communicate with them and relay their observations?

15 A. That is pure speculation.

16 Q. Do you mean by that that you never saw someone who identified

17 himself as being part of the Bosnian Serb forces holding a walkie-talkie

18 communicating with forces in the hills; is that what you mean?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You never saw it?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. No. But as an experienced military officer, you would presume

23 it, wouldn't you?

24 A. No, I would not.

25 Q. Do you not think that was an obvious intelligence move for the

Page 19984

1 Bosnian Serb forces to take?

2 A. It would be possible.

3 Q. That's not my question?

4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to slow down not only for the

5 interpreters but also for the court reporters.

6 MR. IERACE: I apologise, Mr. President.

7 Q. Now, yesterday, you said that there was some more footage on this

8 incident, a brown Mercedes, is that footage which shows a brown

9 Mercedes --

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'm not sure that the witness

13 said that there were other incidents but there were other photographs

14 that concerned this incident as far as I can remember. The witness said

15 we could see the scene from another perspective but he didn't mention an

16 incident itself, the incident itself, not as far as I can remember.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I do not see in the English text the word

18 incident -- yes, could you please in the English text refer to where I

19 find the incident mentioned.

20 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President, it was in the closing stages of

21 last night's evidence when the witness said --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I was -- I was looking to your question and

23 my question was to Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 Yes, or is it not completed.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Do you mean Mr. Ierace's

Page 19985

1 question? My question had to do with the term "in this incident," I don't

2 think the witness said that there was any reports about this incident but

3 he spoke about the site of the incident as far as I can remember so if Mr.

4 Ierace could be more precise, I would appreciate that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... yes, if you

6 would then please continue, Mr. Ierace. If, however, there is a clear --

7 I have to check that in the transcript, but please inform us, Mr. Ierace.

8 MR. IERACE: I can save some time, Mr. President.

9 Q. Do you remember mentioning a brown Mercedes last night?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And basically you told us there was some footage somewhere on

12 those tapes of a brown Mercedes?

13 A. Yes, there is.

14 Q. And that was footage taken in relation to this incident outside

15 the Presidency?

16 A. True.

17 Q. When Sir Douglas Hurd attended?

18 A. True.

19 Q. All right. Now to help me identify that footage, as you remember

20 it, do we see a brown Mercedes on the road, a door open, shrapnel

21 splattered and then a close up of a mortar impact on the ground?

22 A. You've got it. You've got the one. That's it. That is the one.

23 Q. We've got to pause between our exchanges?

24 A. I'm sorry.

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I think the video booth has that

Page 19986

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19987

1 excerpt frozen on a tape --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, before doing so, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, the witness

3 yesterday said, yes there is. It shows a brown Mercedes car. Okay. And

4 it's immediately when the two first mortar bombs landed it was taken

5 directly from the Presidency side of I mean the tape you've shown was

6 coming from the PTT side.

7 That is therefore the same incident. May I remind you that

8 yesterday, you interrupted Mr. Ierace on something that had hardly any --

9 hardly any impact that is whether one or two ambulances were there. The

10 issue was whether they were there at the specific moment. You

11 nevertheless felt it necessary to object because the witness had been

12 saying that there was one ambulance instead of ambulances. You did not

13 check the transcript well because two lines after he talked about one

14 ambulance, he talked about ambulances in the plural.

15 Now, again, you interrupt without having properly done your

16 homework. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, objecting is a full right. This right

17 should be used in a diligent way. That's where the right has been given

18 for. Now again, it's clearly from the testimony of the witness yesterday

19 that it was the same incident.

20 I would like you to take another five minutes to do the same as I

21 invited to you before.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE:

24 Q. Mr. Gray, I think you said, correct me if I am wrong, this is the

25 footage, is it?

Page 19988

1 A. With the brown Mercedes, yes.

2 Q. Perhaps the Witness's screen might be adjusted so he can see the

3 relevant image.

4 Do you see on your screen a brown Mercedes?

5 A. I see me, actually.

6 Q. Can you see yourself in the picture at the moment?

7 A. Yes, I can.

8 Q. We can't see where you point to so don't try pointing to the

9 screen. Can you describe to us where you appear in this image?

10 A. That's the one. That's it. How do I point?

11 Q. Do you see what appears to be a bus shelter on the left side?

12 A. The Presidency is over on the right-hand side of this Mercedes

13 and you can see the splatter mark where --

14 MR. IERACE: Just a minute, please.

15 Q. Keep in mind that when you point to the screen, we can't see you

16 we can't see where you point so you have to use words to describe where

17 you are. As we look down the road beyond the roof of the Mercedes, are

18 you saying the Presidency is --

19 A. Is on the right-hand side.

20 Q. Please wait until I finish my questions so the interpreters don't

21 get pressured too much.

22 All right. And I think we can see towards the -- just beyond the

23 back windscreen of the Mercedes the rear view windscreen some individuals

24 by the road, are you one of those?

25 A. No I am not. I'm standing on the actual steps of the Presidency.

Page 19989

1 Q. I think in the distance we can see a light post with a white

2 vehicle perhaps at the base of a light post, do you mean somewhere around

3 there?

4 A. Yes, it is to the right of the picture is where the Presidency is

5 located.

6 Q. You can't recognise yourself in this picture, can you?

7 A. I'm not in this picture.

8 Q. I'm sorry I thought you earlier said that you were?

9 A. No, I did not say that.

10 Q. All right. Now, first of all, would you agree with me that the

11 segment of news in which this image appears on your tape is a BBC segment?

12 A. I believe it is.

13 Q. And like all of the 60 or so others, somewhere around two or three

14 minutes long? Each of the segments is about two or three minutes long; is

15 that correct?

16 A. I have no idea.

17 Q. All right. The news report in which this footage appears,

18 according to the voice, the commentary, makes no reference to the

19 Presidency, would you agree with that?

20 A. I would have to review the actual clip myself.

21 Q. All right. In that case, we'll line it up and show it to you

22 after the break and I'll move on to something else?

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. You mentioned to us the other day a shelling of a market; do you

25 remember doing that? You said that you sent an artillery officer and a

Page 19990

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19991

1 mortar officer down to investigate?

2 A. I talked about the bombing of a market. I didn't talk about the

3 shelling of a market.

4 Q. I stand corrected. I think you said that market was within

5 walking distance of the PTT; is that correct?

6 A. That is true.

7 Q. All right. And --

8 A. I've actually walked past it myself.

9 Q. I think you told us you did not recall the date; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And would you be able to indicate the position if you were shown

12 the map that you marked the other day?

13 A. Yes, I probably would. I would give you the approximate area of

14 where it was but I went shopping one day to try and get some food and I

15 walked past the area where the marketplace was.

16 Q. Again, please wait?

17 A. Sorry.

18 Q. If you keep your answers short, I'd greatly appreciate it and

19 you're telling us that you probably could indicate the position so I ask

20 that the witness be shown the map which is Exhibit D1845.

21 Would you please take a blue pen and place a cross to indicate

22 the position of the market. If you don't know the exact position then

23 circle the area within which, to the best of your recollection, the

24 market was located.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 19992

1 Q. All right. Now, just to be clear about this, we're not talking

2 about what became known as the bread line shelling in Sarajevo in 1992,

3 are we?

4 A. I believe we are.

5 Q. We are?

6 A. Mm-hm.

7 Q. Do you remember on the clip that we saw on the visit of Douglas

8 Hurd we saw that he -- I withdraw that. We saw that on the day of his

9 visit, there was a ceremony carried out by musicians likely and

10 internationally known as Adagio day. Do you recall seeing that on the

11 clip?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. And we saw I think a famous cellist playing at the site of a

14 massacre, an alleged massacre are you saying that that incident is the

15 same one that you sent the artillery officer and the mortar officer down

16 to carry out an inspection?

17 A. No.

18 Q. No. To the best of your recollection -- go on?

19 A. That cellist appears a number of times on the tapes as I'm sure

20 you realise.

21 Q. Yeah?

22 A. So I mean it's not just once that he appears.

23 Q. No, that's right. What do you remember of the events that were

24 taking place as you heard them, the events that took place immediately

25 before this shelling as they were related to you from whatever source?

Page 19993

1 A. You're talking about the events that happened immediately before

2 it?

3 Q. Yes before the incident which took place --

4 A. At the marketplace.

5 Q. Within the circle that you have marked on the map, this incident?

6 A. It was absolutely totally quiet, there was no shelling, no

7 machine-gun fire, nothing.

8 Q. Was it a crowded market, a market that wasn't well attended on

9 this particular occasion?

10 A. It was crowded, people wanted to get food.

11 Q. Were there items on the food stalls, on the stalls?

12 A. Yes, there were.

13 Q. And do you remember what time of day it was --

14 A. It was in the middle -- it was middle of the day and there was

15 actually footage of the actual bombing on the videotapes that I've

16 provided.

17 Q. How long was it -- I withdraw that. Do you remember what day of

18 the week it was?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 Q. All right. Do you remember where you were when you were first

21 told about it?

22 A. I was probably in the PTT or I was in a meeting in Lukavica

23 barracks. I could have been in the Presidency.

24 Q. The answer therefore is no, I don't remember?

25 A. No, I don't remember.

Page 19994

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19995

1 Q. All right. Do you remember how long it was after you heard about

2 it that you dispatched and artillery officer and a mortar officer to visit

3 the scene?

4 A. I did it as soon as I got back to the PTT. I think I -- I think

5 from memory, I think I was actually at Lukavica barracks having a meeting

6 with the Serbs about the concentration of weapons and when I returned to

7 the PTT, I heard about the bombing in the market and I immediately

8 dispatched the Australian major artillery to that location and the

9 Canadian captain mortar officer to that location.

10 Q. Did you instruct them to carry out an analysis of whatever

11 markings and remains there were at the scene?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. You told us that they informed you that they found no evidence of

14 a mortaring or shelling, no tail fins; correct?

15 A. That is true.

16 Q. Did you seriously expect that by the time they got there, the

17 tail fins would be lying around?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. But I mean the -- from the last, the last video clip that you

21 actually showed, okay, you can see on the ground the clear markings of

22 what a mortar bomb does and there were no such markings and there were no

23 such markings for an artillery shell and I previously explained this to

24 the Court that an artillery shell will leave a specific marking on the

25 ground.

Page 19996

1 Q. My question was about tail fins, Mr. Gray, if you could please

2 focus on the question. But in relation to markings on the ground, did

3 you arrange for any witnesses or surviving victims to be interviewed?

4 A. No, I did not.

5 Q. Did you make any inquiries as to whether the Bosnian government

6 authorities had carried out an investigation?

7 A. I did not. It was not my job.

8 Q. How could it be your job to carry out a UN investigation and yet

9 not arrange for eyewitnesses to be interviewed or to read -- to access a

10 copy of the government investigation?

11 A. I had a specific task in Sarajevo and that was as the senior

12 military observer for the observers in Sarajevo.

13 Q. How many shells were said to have landed, how many explosions

14 were said to have taken place?

15 A. There was only one explosion.

16 Q. Given that witnesses were not spoken to, other investigations,

17 the fruits of other investigations were not checked, how can you exclude

18 the possibility that the mortar shell landed on a person?

19 A. Mortar shell landing on a person is a one in a million chance,

20 it's like winning lotto or losing lotto, yeah, so I mean it is -- it is

21 just so remote, it just doesn't even bear thinking about.

22 Q. I don't know that you ever really explained to us the situation

23 in relation to tail fins. Did you not allow for the possibility that if

24 there was a tail fin, that it would have been taken by the time the

25 officers got there?

Page 19997

1 A. The fact of the matter, and I would really like to leave this

2 alone, the fact of the matter is that I sent two very experienced

3 officers, one Australian, one Canadian. They went to the marketplace.

4 They clearly examined every inch of it and there was no indication of any

5 impact from an artillery shell or a mortar shell. There was one crater

6 which was clearly from a bomb.

7 Q. I see. So the crater was actually clearly from a bomb?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. I see. How do you know they looked at the right crater if they

10 didn't speak to any witnesses?

11 A. There was only one crater.

12 Q. Mr. Gray, at that stage, Sarajevo was peppered with impact?

13 A. Oh, give me a break.

14 Q. Explosions, impact markings, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes, it was, but in the marketplace, there was nothing else apart

16 from tables umbrellas, okay, to actually cover the food, and so on, and

17 there was one crater there. That's all. There were no other mortar bomb

18 markings.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, Mr. Gray, did I hear you say very softly,

20 "Give me a break"?

21 THE WITNESS: Yeah.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You should understand that both parties are

23 entitled to ask further questions on the issues you are testifying about.

24 THE WITNESS: I understand.

25 JUDGE ORIE: There is no need to get nervous about that even if

Page 19998

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 19999

1 you think that the Prosecution does not understand your answers clearly.

2 By answering the following questions, you will have an opportunity to

3 tell exactly what your recollection of these events is.

4 If you need a break now, please tell me or if you say no, we can

5 continue.

6 THE WITNESS: That's fine.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please keep in mind these questions are part of a

8 trial and not an attack on you.

9 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm very sorry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 MR. IERACE:

13 Q. We'll come back to the video for that, Mr. Gray, at a later point

14 when it's lined up.

15 Now, you were shown some video by the Defence of a convoy of

16 white vehicles approaching Sarajevo and let me remind you what you said

17 about it, "They were a resupply convoy that had come in from Belgrade and

18 they were ambushed by the Muslims." And then later, "There were about 20

19 lorries in it and a point, a very serious point about this whole ambush

20 was that it was totally deliberate, that the Presidency forces knew that

21 this convoy was coming through and they even had a video camera team

22 there to actually film the ambush on these French."

23 A. That's true.

24 Q. "I've already given evidence to the UN arm about this particular

25 ambush. I did that in 1992."

Page 20000

1 A. That's true.

2 Q. And then you were asked, "Colonel, can you think of a reason or

3 do you know the reason for which this convoy was attacked?" Answer: "I

4 have no idea and I have no idea why I was personally attacked 13 times."

5 Now, I'd ask the booth if we can play the other of the two tapes

6 I looked at earlier, it just has one segment on it and it's P3794. I

7 think the transcript is about to be distributed. Here is the transcript.

8 And if we could just hold off playing it until all have the transcript.

9 Just hold it. Thank you.

10 Yes, please play it.

11 [Videotape played]

12 MR. IERACE: Stop.

13 Q. A very different account, isn't it?

14 A. Sorry.

15 Q. A very different account?

16 A. From what.

17 Q. From the tape, from what you have told us. Not an ambush but in

18 part incompetence they drove straight into a battle that had been going

19 for three days. It's a different account, that's my first point,

20 Mr. Gray?

21 A. That's true.

22 Q. Okay. Second point -- first of all, the voice is that of Kate

23 Adie, is that correct?

24 A. I think so.

25 Q. She indicates from that report that it was made the day following

Page 20001

1 the incident, she refers to the incident taking place "at dusk

2 yesterday," do you accept that that's when she filed her report?

3 A. Probably.

4 Q. And she said, "According to the soldiers, they drove into the

5 fight," indicating that she spoke to the French soldiers for her

6 information.

7 A. She may have.

8 Q. So it seems your account on the strength of that tape is at odds

9 with the account of the French soldiers whose comrades were killed and

10 wounded; do you agree with that?

11 A. Yes, my account is. May I give my account?

12 Q. Yes, you may?

13 A. Can I do that now?

14 Q. If you would like to tell us what evidence there was from your

15 perspective that it was an ambush rather than a three-day battle that was

16 inadvertently driven into?

17 A. Okay. I actually arranged for a cease-fire with the warring

18 parties. You can see from the video pictures, I mean, it was a arranged

19 for a specific time for that convoy to actually come through. You can

20 see from the pictures that it was broad daylight and the convoy was

21 deliberately targeted, I mean, it was clearly identifiable as a UN convoy

22 and I had spoken to the liaison officers in the PTT prior to that convoy

23 coming through and it was deliberately targeted. It was ambushed and it

24 was fired at from the Presidency side and they had a video camera crew

25 or --

Page 20002

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20003

1 Q. I'll stop you there, you've told us about that.

2 Now, it was not unusual for journalists, for the UN to be fired

3 at when they drove in the vicinity of the airport, was it?

4 A. No, it was not.

5 Q. All right. They could be fired at from both sides?

6 A. They could be, but they weren't.

7 Q. According to you, that's true. The UN did not command much

8 respect in the eyes of the civilians in Sarajevo, did it, at that stage?

9 A. No, it did not.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. Do you want to read this?

12 Q. Listen to the questions, please. You -- I take it in your

13 answer, are conceding that there was a battle that had been going on. Had

14 it been going on for three days at that point?

15 A. The battle had been continuous and you really have to take --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

17 THE WITNESS: You really must take a grain of salt --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray -- Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

20 the witness was strictly in agreement with the question which was asked

21 of him and that is whether they didn't the journalist say this and that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: This is not an objection to a question as far as I

23 can see and it's a comment on the consistency between question and

24 answer. It is not up to counsel to comment on the consistency during

25 cross-examination.

Page 20004

1 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE:

3 Q. Up until the arrival of the UN convoy -- I withdraw that. Had

4 there been a particular intensity of the fighting in that area earlier

5 that day and the previous day and the day before that?

6 A. The time of the arrival of that particular convoy was unfortunate

7 because there had been a lot of fighting, I mean they were driving down --

8 Q. Please, Mr. Gray, listen to the question. You say that the timing

9 was unfortunate because there had been a lot of fighting and you've told

10 us that you negotiated a cease-fire?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You wouldn't have done that unless you thought that was necessary,

13 having regard to the level of fighting, I take it?

14 A. I don't know how many cease-fires I negotiated.

15 Q. That's not the question, Mr. Gray. On this particular occasion,

16 you thought it important to negotiate a cease-fire to ensure the safety

17 of the convoy; is that correct?

18 A. True.

19 Q. All right. Now, was that why you gave evidence because you were

20 the one who negotiated the cease-fire?

21 A. Yes, it was, but it was also with regard to the presence of a

22 video camera crew who were actually present at the actual time that the

23 ambush took place.

24 Q. And where were they from or --

25 A. They were from Butmir.

Page 20005

1 Q. Did you ask them where they were from?

2 A. They were from Butmir.

3 Q. Please answer --

4 A. I didn't have to ask them anything. I didn't go down to the

5 ambush site. I was busy doing something else.

6 Q. Mr. Gray --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, Mr. Ierace tried to further explore how

8 you would know that they came from Butmir and that's what he asked you by

9 saying, "Did you ask them?" Then you said, "I didn't have to ask them

10 anything." I would like you to answer the question if you asked them,

11 please say yes. If you didn't ask them as I take it from your answer,

12 say no and then the next question will be put to you.

13 Please proceed.

14 MR. IERACE:

15 Q. Did anyone, to your knowledge, speak to this video crew and ask

16 them where they came from, who they represented, why they were there?

17 A. The French did.

18 Q. The French soldiers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. And we know what their view was, don't we, from the

21 videotape?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Yes. Now, in your mind, you learned there was a video crew

24 present and you joined the dots and concluded not only was it an ambush

25 but the Bosnian authorities had the temerity to film the ambush; correct?

Page 20006

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20007

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. To use your words, the Muslims, the Muslims were at it again;

3 correct?

4 A. True and I can give you another example.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would that be a convenient time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll adjourn until 11.00.

7 --- Break taken at 10.27 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I received a request for a meeting in Chambers by

10 one of the parties, a meeting that would take place in the presence of

11 both parties. What I know what would be the subject it would certainly

12 be a brief meeting and it could take place this afternoon at 2.30. So

13 then I'll hear whether -- and I take it that if the party who requested

14 it will inform the other party what it is about then I am willing to

15 assist the parties.

16 MR. IERACE: Yes, Mr. President. At this stage I don't know

17 anything about the subject matter but might we also be informed of the

18 identity and sequence of witnesses for next week. I would be grateful if

19 we could be told at least at this stage the name of the first witness for

20 next week.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that this information will be given

22 to you by the next break unless there's any reason that it cannot be done

23 then I'd like to hear about it.

24 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we can make a

25 schedule that helps us too but I can tell you that on Monday, providing

Page 20008

1 that we finish with Mr. Gray today, on Monday, our witness will be

2 Mr. Vilicic who will be told by Mr. Kuljic and then by Mr. Terzic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. Usher could you please escort the

4 witness into the courtroom.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

7 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Mr. Gray, during the break did you check the text of the four

9 documents that we mentioned earlier for any reference to Lukavica

10 headquarters no longer being a legitimate target?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And did you find any reference to that?

13 A. No, I didn't, but the fact is that if you look at the original

14 map for the --

15 Q. Mr. Gray --

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters beg for a break between

17 question and answer.

18 MR. IERACE: My apologies.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, may I ask you to look at your screen and

20 to stop and wait until the text stops moving and then only then start to

21 give your answer and Mr. Ierace will certainly look at his screen as well

22 in order to follow the same procedure.

23 THE WITNESS: Certainly.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Do you now agree that there was no written agreement between the

Page 20009

1 parties which specified that Lukavica headquarters was not a legitimate

2 target?

3 A. There was an agreement between the parties to not target

4 Lukavica.

5 Q. Written?

6 A. It is part of the -- I mean it's part of this map here that I have

7 right here and Lukavica is right here and that was one of the

8 concentration points and it was not supposed to be a target.

9 Q. A simple question, Mr. Gray, there was no written agreement, was

10 there?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, we'll now see some video again.

14 Q. Mr. Gray, you're about to see a video of the whole incident where

15 the Mercedes footage is shown. Could we please see the Mercedes

16 component.

17 THE REGISTRAR: What exhibit number is that, Mr. Ierace, please

18 for the record?

19 MR. IERACE: 3798. At this stage, it hasn't been transposed on

20 to a separate tape, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it may be played.

22 [Videotape played]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am under the

25 impression that this serves absolutely no purpose, there's no purpose in

Page 20010

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20011

1 the Defence trying to assist people yet again, we don't have a translation

2 into B/C/S and we don't have any translation into French. I won't say

3 anything anymore because when I intervene, when I speak, I'm not supposed

4 to speak.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President there is not a transcript for that

7 segment. It only became relevant during cross-examination in this

8 morning's session. I think I can formulate my questions in relation to it

9 in a way which --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need the text for your questions?

11 MR. IERACE: No.

12 JUDGE ORIE: We could do two things to replay the tape without

13 text since the text, as Mr. Ierace tells us, is of no importance. We'll

14 closely look at it that no question will be put to the witness at this

15 moment for which any clue for an answer could be found in the text that

16 has been pronounced by the reporter. Apart from that Mr. Ierace, the

17 Prosecution is ordered in order to give General Galic an opportunity to at

18 least know what has been said to provide for a transcript as soon as

19 possible. Please proceed.

20 MR. IERACE: Please replay the tape without sound.

21 [Videotape played]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace before you put the questions to the

23 witness. The Chamber would have preferred if you would have informed the

24 Chamber either way that there was no transcript so that we could have

25 considered to play the video footage without sound right away. Please

Page 20012

1 proceed.

2 MR. IERACE: Yes, I accept I should have done that,

3 Mr. President, I apologise.

4 Q. Going on the images, this appears to be one of the BBC reports by

5 Martin Bell as to events in Sarajevo; is that correct?

6 A. True.

7 Q. There was no footage which appeared to relate to the visit of Sir

8 Douglas Hurd; do you agree?

9 A. True.

10 Q. Do you accept that the Mercedes that we saw in a shelled condition

11 was not an incident which occurred during the visit of Sir Douglas Hurd?

12 A. I do not, it happened.

13 Q. All right. Now, earlier you waved a document around, earlier this

14 morning and said something to the effect that it was evidence or proof of

15 your theories about the Bosnian Muslims. Would you please pass that

16 document to the Court orderly so that I can see it?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, it just had to do with

19 the fact that the witness might not know which document is concerned but

20 since he's taking his time to find it, everything is all right. Thank

21 you.

22 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, whilst the witness is doing that in

23 order to save time, I hand up a document that I'll shortly be showing to

24 the witness P3797.

25 Refrain from showing it to the witness at this stage but if it

Page 20013

1 could be shown to the Defence and the Bench.

2 Q. Mr. Gray, I think you've handed me a letter dated the 8th of

3 September addressed from you to someone indicated as DPR 1, who was DPR 1?

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. To avoid any

5 confusion, I think that there are several documents that were provided --

6 that were given to Mr. Ierace by the witness. We should know about this.

7 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I will come to that, one document at

8 a time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. IERACE:

11 Q. Who was DPR 1?

12 A. Deputy permanent representative for the New Zealand permanent

13 mission to the United Nations.

14 Q. All right. There are some documents attached to the letter; is

15 that correct?

16 A. That is true.

17 Q. One appears to be an article from --

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, I object. I object.

19 Mr. President, we haven't had the opportunity of seeing these documents.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace --

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Which have been provided like

22 this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is the document, where does it come from and it is

24 known to the Defence?

25 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, one of the documents, that is the

Page 20014

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20015

1 letter and attachments was a document disclosed to the Prosecution by the

2 Defence before this witness commenced his evidence. The other document,

3 I'm unable to say at this stage whether it's been disclosed to us or not.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there more than one document that was

5 addressed to DPR, as far as I understand?

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm just going through that it appears

7 to be a letter containing a number of annexes which was forwarded to that

8 person, on the face of it, that's what it appears to be.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is this sufficient to identify the document.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, I can't

11 know off the top of my head what this is given that there are 50.000

12 documents.

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

14 MR. IERACE: And perhaps whilst the Defence looks at that document

15 I can move on to another topic to save some time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

17 MR. IERACE: I asked the witness be shown 3797.

18 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can't

19 examine documents and focus on the questions. That's my position. I

20 apologise.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that one of the members of the team. We'll

22 take a break of 30 seconds so in order to give you an opportunity to

23 identify what document it is.

24 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as we don't

25 have all these documents with us for obvious reasons, I think that if

Page 20016

1 we're going to ask about this document, it should be placed on the ELMO so

2 that everyone can see it. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: When it comes to the content, perhaps the

4 introductory questions could be without but then certainly the parties

5 and the Bench should be able to follow the line of questioning.

6 Could it please be returned to the Prosecution, the document.

7 Mr. Ierace, please proceed.

8 MR. IERACE: I ask that I circulate a document not to be shown to

9 the witness at this page, P3787 and perhaps the earlier document P3797

10 might be withdrawn from the witness' table if it hasn't already been

11 given -- if it has already been given to him.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It was not yet given to him.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. Now, Mr. Gray this is a letter that you sent with a number of

15 attachments and the objective of the letter was to inform the recipient

16 of material which established that the objective of the Bosnian government

17 was to impose an Islamic regime; is that correct?

18 A. True.

19 Q. It was also material to indicate that there was animosity on the

20 part of Bosnian civilians towards the UN; is that correct?

21 A. True.

22 Q. All right. Would you please turn to the last page of the --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could it please then be put on the ELMO.

24 MR. IERACE: The last page of the last annex, may that be placed

25 on the ELMO.

Page 20017

1 JUDGE ORIE: I think you've -- where is that document at this

2 moment? Have you got the only one in your hands?

3 MR. IERACE:

4 Q. Now, this last document is an interview of the chief of the

5 Yugoslav armed forces?

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please zoom in on, I take it, the yellow

7 marked part -- not yet.

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Carried out by the editor of an American magazine titled "Defence

10 and foreign affairs strategic policy" being the journal for the 31st of

11 December, 1992; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. And it's the type of interview that back home we might call a

14 Dorothy Dixer - D-I-X-E-R - would you agree with that?

15 A. I've no idea what you're talking about.

16 Q. I suggest to you that it's a type of interview where the questions

17 are not challenging. The person being interviewed was hardly grilled, was

18 he?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No. Now, on that page, could we zoom into on the first column,

21 the second last paragraph and we see reference to a U.S. Congressional

22 report, I'll read the question. "The same U.S. Congressional report

23 contains evidence of Mr. Izetbegovic's ties with fundamentalist Iran" and

24 it says that "Mr. Izetbegovic made a deal with Tehran which before any

25 escalation of conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina starts it is imperative

Page 20018

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20019

1 that the sympathy of the west is won. For that reason, the Muslim special

2 forces had carried out terror actions against their own people." Then the

3 interviewer asks: "Is the JNA familiar with such acts?"

4 Do you see that?

5 A. I see it.

6 Q. And there were earlier references to this U.S. Congressional

7 report; is that the case?

8 A. I take your word for it.

9 Q. Well have you read the article?

10 A. I haven't had a chance to read the whole article.

11 Q. No, no, no, did you read it before you forwarded it on with your

12 letter in 1993?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. And this was one of the documents that you were waving around

15 this morning, isn't it?

16 A. Yes, it is. The most important part about it is the --

17 Q. If you could just answer the question, Mr. Gray, rather than

18 adding material. Might the witness be shown P3787. I'd like to show you

19 another article published by a magazine called "Washington report on

20 middle east affairs," July/August, 1993.

21 If you would read to yourself the first paragraph. Do you accept

22 that we have here a reference to that very same report?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you know that four members of the congressional task force

25 resigned in protest when this article was published?

Page 20020

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Would you please look at the last paragraph on the first page.

3 I'll read out some pieces of it, "Although the document contains numerous

4 quotes, none are footnoted and many are not even attributed. Most of

5 the allegations" --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the text be put on the ELMO, please?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher could you put the last paragraph of the

8 first of the cover page.

9 MR. IERACE: All right.

10 Q. Now, if I could paraphrase this, it says most of the allegations

11 levelled against Bosnian, Iran and various Muslim populations are derived

12 from a very limited range of material, which support -- while support for

13 the report's highly unorthodox reading of the shariah or Islamic law is

14 based on a selective interpretation of the Koran and non-Islamic cultural

15 practices within Muslim societies.

16 It points out the word "terrorist" appears 27 times in the 14-page

17 report and the authors, Forrest and Bodansky released it without

18 consulting with the group's congressional members. Do you see that?

19 A. I can see it.

20 Q. You go to the third page, second paragraph, we see a response

21 from Alija Izetbegovic's personal representative in Washington, it is

22 garbage, it is dirty lies he told the Washington report, it is based on

23 fiction not fact. Then the next paragraph to finish off that paragraph,

24 the representative said, any honest and knowledgeable congressman will

25 immediately separate himself from this report, he said.

Page 20021

1 And then this review goes on to say, four congressional members

2 of the task force have done exactly that since last September, resigning

3 from the organisation as a result of Forrest and Bodansky's report; do

4 you see that?

5 A. I see it.

6 Q. Might that be returned and might the witness -- while the document

7 is still in front of you, in relation to the article in Oslobodneje, can

8 you understand why Sarajevans would have not been particularly impressed

9 with the UN in mid-1992?

10 A. It was extremely unfortunate the actual naming of the UN force

11 and that was named the United Nations protection force which was

12 extremely unfortunate because --

13 Q. Please stop. Understand that I appreciate the UN had a very

14 difficult, if not impossible job in mid-1992 in Sarajevo and by the same

15 token, if one places one's self in the shoes of Sarajevo civilians facing

16 their first winter in that conflict, I suggest to you one can readily

17 understand their dismay and shock, their disappointment at the attitude

18 of the rest of the world to their plight as symbolised in the UN, would

19 you agree with that?

20 A. I agree with the dismay that they felt, the plight that they felt

21 and their frustration but I have no excuse for them shooting at us and

22 attacking us.

23 Q. As you saw it. Now this article expresses that dismay in

24 UNPROFOR, doesn't it?

25 A. Yes, it does.

Page 20022

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20023

1 Q. It points out basically the general thrust of it is that the UN

2 had it easy in Sarajevo compared to them, doesn't it? I'm not suggesting

3 that you had it easy, don't misunderstand me, I'm suggesting this is the

4 tenure, this is the tone of this article?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since this

7 line of questioning about the perceptions that the citizens of Sarajevo

8 had from somewhere of the United Nations has nothing to do with these

9 proceedings and I therefore object to the question and its relevance.

10 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace.

12 MR. IERACE: The witness has made it relevant and I could have no

13 confidence that my learned colleague would not take it up in

14 re-examination. I have to deal with it in cross.

15 JUDGE ORIE: When you said the witness gave it relevance, you're

16 referring to.

17 MR. IERACE: The waving around of the document.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. The objection is denied.

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Now I appreciate that you tell us that you can understand that to

21 give us some examples if you imagine being in their shoes, I think by

22 mid-1992 with the first of the severe food shortages, is that correct,

23 around June?

24 A. It was around June, yes.

25 Q. Okay. It wouldn't have been very pleasant if you were a

Page 20024

1 Sarajevan learning that UNPROFOR headquarters were about to pull out of

2 Sarajevo and relocate to Zagreb, would it?

3 A. Probably not but they didn't know that was going to happen.

4 Q. Are you saying in June they didn't know it?

5 A. By June, the headquarters had already withdrawn.

6 Q. When were they told?

7 A. Well they saw the headquarters withdraw on the 16th and 17th of

8 May, they saw them.

9 Q. So when you earlier said they wouldn't have known, would you at

10 least agree with me that by July they knew?

11 A. Certainly by July they knew that the major part of the

12 headquarters had gone.

13 Q. Yeah. My point is that from the perspective of a citizen in

14 Sarajevo, they would feel abandoned by that, wouldn't they?

15 A. They might do.

16 Q. And they might do quite reasonably, mightn't they? I am not

17 saying they were abandoned but they might reasonably conclude that?

18 A. We still had a significant -- I mean in July we had a significant

19 UN presence in Sarajevo.

20 Q. Right. Now, another example and I'll move on, was there an

21 incident where Mrs. Plavsic's mother was transported by the UN from within

22 Sarajevo, within the confrontation lines, to Ilidza?

23 A. We attempted to do it but it wasn't successful.

24 Q. Was it not successful because there was an angry demonstration

25 outside her residence when it was attempted?

Page 20025

1 A. That is true. My soldiers actually -- my officers actually stood

2 between the crowd and Mrs. Plavsic and protected her with their lives.

3 Q. Okay. There might be some confusion here. I'm not talking about

4 Mrs. Plavsic, I'm talking about Mrs. Plavsic's mother?

5 A. No I have no knowledge about that.

6 Q. Are you not aware that General MacKenzie ordered that the UN

7 transfer Mrs. Plavsic's mother from within the confrontation lines to

8 where Mrs. Plavsic lived at Ilidza on the Bosnian Serb side of the

9 confrontation lines?

10 A. I'm aware of that.

11 Q. All right. That wouldn't have looked particularly --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Can a break be made between question and answer,

13 please.

14 MR. IERACE:

15 Q. That would not have looked particularly good from the perspective

16 of a hungry Sarajevan stuck in the city and being shelled, would it?

17 A. Probably not.

18 Q. In fact, was the UN referred to after that on the streets of

19 Sarajevo as the Chetnik taxi service?

20 A. I have no idea.

21 Q. All right. Now -- excuse me, Mr. President.

22 You will now see, I think, the video you have in mind in relation

23 to the market shelling. Can we please have the other videotape played, I

24 think the exhibit number is P3793 and just before its shown, I'll

25 distribute the transcript.

Page 20026

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20027

1 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Ierace, would you mind telling us what

2 number of transcript it is?

3 MR. IERACE: Six. I'm sorry, the clip is six. If you could tell

4 me the words on the tape, that might help me one was Mercedes and the

5 other was -- bread, yes, that's it. Yes might that be played as soon as

6 you're ready?

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Who was the UN gentleman being interviewed?

10 A. That was Fred -- oh, I can't remember his last name, he was

11 the -- basically the PR person for the UN headquarters in the PTT.

12 Q. We see on this report that, according to the commentator, there

13 were eyewitnesses from the PTT building. Did you know that?

14 A. There were no eyewitnesses. It was close to the PTT, that's what

15 the report said.

16 Q. Okay. I stand corrected. Excuse me.

17 I think the commentator said people watching from the nearby UN

18 headquarters said it was difficult to believe it was not directly

19 targeted. They're the words that were spoken?

20 A. That is true.

21 Q. All right. And it seems that at that stage it was thought to have

22 been 105 millimetre shell; correct?

23 A. True.

24 Q. And did you recognise the voice to be Kate Adie?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 20028

1 Q. Do you know whether she was spoken to as to where she got her

2 information from?

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. Do you know whether the film crew who were there seemingly within

5 a minute or so, perhaps, were spoken to?

6 A. I have no idea.

7 Q. What I'm suggesting to you is that a little bit of knowledge is a

8 dangerous thing?

9 A. That's very true, particularly with the media who put judgements

10 on things that they have no right to.

11 MR. IERACE: Might the witness be shown Exhibit P3797?

12 Q. Sir, this is a page from the book by Martin Bell titled "In harm's

13 way" talking about his time in Sarajevo. I will read the last two

14 paragraphs you can follow it in the text, "I noted self-critically that

15 for weeks at a time" --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace you know when reading there's always a

17 tendency of speeding up.

18 MR. IERACE: Yes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please suppress that.

20 MR. IERACE: "During the years of working from Sarajevo, we would

21 venture no further than the airport in one direction and the Presidency

22 in the other. Our measure of Bosnia was approximately the length of a

23 single street in its capital. Forays into Serb-land would be day trips

24 only, usually unrewarding, and therefore attempted less frequently. In

25 this self-critical mode I would ask myself, when had we ever shown a

Page 20029

1 civilian victim of sniper fire on the Serb side of the lines? When had

2 we reported from their hospitals? When had we heard from the Sarajevo

3 Serbian News in Grbavica rather than Oslobodneje the celebrated newspaper

4 on the government side which was an icon of journalism and a symbol of the

5 city's ordeal? Even to raise these questions is to risk being branded as

6 an apologist for the Serbs which I am not and never was. They started

7 this war. They killed and they burned and they ethnically cleansed and

8 the greater part of responsibility for it will always be theirs. But they

9 didn't hold monopoly rights on evil. There were massacres also by Croats,

10 and even by Muslims, and villages burned by both. The Serbs were

11 demonised by themselves as well as by others. But such is the nature of

12 television that some of the coverage of the war was quite literally

13 weighted against them."

14 Mr. Gray, they are not the words of someone who was blinded to

15 the perspective of the Bosnian Serbs, are they?

16 A. No, they're not, but I mean he comes out to be quite equally

17 weighted with both sides.

18 Q. Do you mean by that that in your mind, the Bosnian Presidency was

19 more to blame, in a general sense, than the Bosnian Serbs?

20 A. No, I do not. I believe that there was equal blame.

21 Q. You see, I suggest to you that that passage I've read is not

22 consistent with your view of Martin Bell and your view of the BBC

23 reporters generally in terms of impartiality?

24 A. This was written in hindsight it was not written immediately at

25 the time. I mean this book was written after he had been there and he was

Page 20030

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20031

1 wounded and he was removed. The actual reporting at the time, at the

2 precise time and the blame that was placed on certain events was

3 immediate, it was passed by satellite dish and they got it wrong on a

4 number of occasions.

5 Q. Sir, do you remember that when I showed you -- when I played to

6 you your own tape of the Sir Douglas Hurd incident, Martin Bell was heard

7 to say at the end of that segment, "The time and place of it suggested it

8 was stage-managed by someone and it gave more force to Mr. Hurd's appeal

9 for a cease-fire."

10 A. That's true.

11 Q. He didn't say, "This is the responsibility of the Serbs."

12 A. No, he didn't --

13 Q. Please wait. And he didn't say, "This is the responsibility of

14 the Presidency," did he?

15 A. No, but what he did say was it was stage-managed.

16 Q. But as to who did it?

17 A. No, he -- he didn't.

18 Q. He didn't say?

19 A. No, he didn't, no, no, you're quite correct.

20 Q. Yes. All right. Now, you told us that you met General Galic,

21 when did you first meet him? Do you have a copy of your statement?

22 A. I think it was in August.

23 Q. Well, take out a copy of your statement and please turn to page

24 10. I believe you -- first of all, do you have your statement in front of

25 you now?

Page 20032

1 A. Yes, I do.

2 Q. And did you make your statement in May of 1995?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Would you please turn to page 10?

5 A. I have done.

6 Q. These words appear, "After 13 July - about halfway down the page -

7 or towards the end of July, General Sipcic no longer attended any meetings

8 and General Galic took over from him as the Sarajevo corps commander. I

9 then had negotiations with Galic over the extra containment sites without

10 any form of warning. Sipcic just disappeared. I asked my liaison officer

11 but never established where he had gone."

12 So as of May, 1995, you thought that you met General Galic for

13 the first time towards the end of July 1992; is that correct?

14 A. The end of July, yes.

15 Q. And at that stage, when you met him you understood him to be the

16 Sarajevo corps commander; is that correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. You told us three days ago that you saw him every other day; is

19 that correct?

20 A. It was about every other day, yes, we had meetings when there was

21 a requirement for cease-fires or I wanted to negotiate the next agreement.

22 Q. Okay. For whatever reason, every other day. Did he become a

23 friend?

24 A. No, he wasn't a friend.

25 Q. Were you able to communicate with him without an interpreter?

Page 20033

1 A. No, I was not.

2 Q. Did you, when you came to Bosnia-Herzegovina, know even one word

3 of Serbian?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. How did you come by that knowledge?

6 A. I -- as part of my pre-deployment training, I was given some

7 training on the Serbo-Croat language.

8 Q. Before you commenced that training, did you know one word of

9 Serbian?

10 A. No.

11 Q. We have heard evidence in this trial that General Galic didn't

12 become the corps commander until about the 10th of September, 1992, that

13 is, ten days before you left. What do you say about that?

14 A. Well, I think that either I'm wrong or someone else is wrong but

15 I mean I've got it recorded in that statement and I've got it written in

16 a notebook.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] It is not challenged by

20 either parties that this date is an accepted date and I do not know why

21 if this is admitted and this is accepted, I do not see why that is a

22 question.

23 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, that was entirely inappropriate to

24 say in front of the witness and --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the relevance is not about the date

Page 20034

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 20035

1 primarily. The objection is denied, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I think it was

2 clear to everyone that it was not about the date. Please proceed.

3 MR. IERACE:

4 Q. Are you now looking through a notebook?

5 A. I'm just looking through because I know that I've got --

6 Q. Mr. Gray, please stop. I take it the answer is yes, you are

7 looking through a notebook?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That's a different notebook to the one we saw the other day, isn't

10 it?

11 A. True.

12 Q. Have you shown that notebook to the Defence?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. When did you do that?

15 A. When I first arrived here.

16 Q. Did they make a copy of it?

17 A. I have no idea.

18 Q. All right. You've now come to a page which I think I can see

19 from here has the corner turned up; is that correct?

20 A. True.

21 MR. IERACE: Might I have access to the notebook.

22 THE WITNESS: Of course. You can have access to any of the

23 documents I have here.

24 MR. IERACE:

25 Q. Do you remember the other day I asked you about the documents

Page 20036

1 that you've got there, Mr. Gray? Do you remember we talked about that?

2 A. Yeah, and I offered to actually pass them across to you and you

3 could have them. That was at the end of the session.

4 Q. You didn't mention this notebook, did you?

5 A. I mentioned the documents that I had. That is part of the

6 documents.

7 Q. Now, this particular --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, it's the recollection of the Chamber

9 that the witness expressed himself in such terms that everything he would

10 have with him would be available for the Court, the trial, the parties so

11 he made a very general offer.

12 MR. IERACE: I can respond to that first.

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to

14 see this notebook because I did not see it myself and I do not know

15 whether this is in a telephone book or what. I did not see it so could I

16 please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... before

18 continuing, may I ask you one thing, you said you don't know whether the

19 Defence copied this notebook. Did you give it to them?

20 THE WITNESS: I passed across a whole range of documents.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: I mean I've got a -- my briefcase is full of

23 documents here. I passed across all the videotapes, I passed across

24 computer discs, I passed across CD-ROMs.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I understand, I do understand everything.

Page 20037

1 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware that they didn't actually get that.

2 I'm not aware of that because it's got a lot of names and contact details

3 and telephone numbers.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask you.

5 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any reason for you that among the materials

7 you gave to the Defence, this booklet was not included?

8 THE WITNESS: An oversight on my part, that's all.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not suggesting to you that you did not do or

10 that you did do but do you have any reason to believe that among the whole

11 bunch of material you transferred to the -- you gave to the Defence, that

12 this would not have been in it or would you expect it to have been in it?

13 THE WITNESS: I have no reason -- as I said, it's got a list of

14 names in it, contact details. I probably didn't think that it was really

15 important but it does have --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand your answer correctly that you did

17 not give it to the Defence.

18 THE WITNESS: I do not think I did. Sorry.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please Mr. Ierace, before putting questions to the

20 witness, could you just pass the document to the Defence.

21 MR. IERACE: Might I finish looking at it first, Mr. President?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President. As Mr. Ierace

24 needs some time, could we --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you what, I'm listening to the French?

Page 20038

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. Could we have the

2 schedule?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are -- if I would -- we are almost at the

4 time where the Prosecution would have used the same time as the Defence.

5 It's a bit difficult to give a precise calculation because of many

6 incidents during cross-examination whereas the examination-in-chief was

7 with less incidents.

8 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I'm in your hands as to how we deal

9 with this. I only intend to -- in the interests of saving time to

10 confine my questions to the one page which simply says, "COL stop --

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before, I mean

12 this is highly inappropriate, this is highly improper. We need to see it

13 first.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, Mr. Ierace indicates what he

15 would like to do. I indicated before that the document should be passed

16 to the Defence. I take it that Mr. Ierace wanted to say that at this

17 moment he wanted to confine himself to questions in relation to a certain

18 page and he would then have passed it to you but you give him no

19 opportunity to follow the orders I'd given previously.

20 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I said that

23 it's absolutely inappropriate to start reading out this text and start

24 quoting from it without being able to comply with your instructions and

25 without the Defence and General Galic being able to see it. This is what

Page 20039

1 is totally inappropriate.

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

3 Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you read that page and have a look through the

4 document.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, might I ask questions in relation to

6 that page and no other?

7 JUDGE ORIE: You want to restrict yourself.

8 MR. IERACE: Yes, I do in the interests of saving time.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then meanwhile, the Defence can -- you may

10 put your questions in respect of that one page.

11 MR. IERACE: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that it could be read in half a minute.

13 MR. IERACE: Yes.

14 Q. The only words that appear on that page are colonel, spelled

15 C-O-L. Stanislav Galic; is that correct?

16 A. True.

17 Q. There's no other pen marks on that page, are there?

18 A. No, there aren't.

19 Q. There's no date printed or otherwise?

20 A. That's true.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Objection. It could be

22 important those aren't the only words that are there it could be

23 important and I'll provide this to the Trial Chamber. I don't know if

24 it's relevant or not.

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 20040

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the sake of the transcript, the -- Mr.

2 Ierace, you did put to the witness that the only words readable on this

3 page were Colonel abbreviated, then Stanislav Galic, the word "Stanislav"

4 appears just above a word stricken out which is still legible which says

5 "Slavoljub."

6 MR. IERACE: All right, Mr. President.

7 Q. How does that page assist you in determining that you first met

8 General Galic towards the end of July 1992?

9 A. Because if you look at the -- at the position of the page, it's

10 towards the end of the book or the -- the notepad and you'll see a lot of

11 names and telephone numbers that appear before it so I mean it's -- purely

12 an indication of, if you like, a timeline of when he actually appeared in

13 Sarajevo and that is not my handwriting, that is the handwriting of

14 someone else.

15 Q. Who? Who?

16 A. It's one of my interpreters who wrote it down.

17 Q. Now, approximately how many times did you meet General Galic, in

18 other words, more than 10 more than 20, less than 100 if you could give

19 us some idea?

20 A. Less than 100 and certainly more than 10.

21 Q. Can you be any more specific than somewhere between 10 and 100?

22 A. I cannot. Our meetings were determined by the war and the

23 availability of General Galic and the opportunity to actually meet him.

24 He was a busy man and it wasn't just a matter of you just arrived and you

25 could have a meeting. There was no point in having meetings --

Page 20041

1 Q. Please stop. You told us the other day that the Bosnian Serb

2 side showed you all of their heavy weapons; is that correct?

3 A. They showed me most of them. They actually gave me a guided tour

4 of all their heavy weapon positions.

5 Q. How do you know that they showed you most of them?

6 A. I don't know but I know that they showed me a large number of

7 weapons which weren't under UN supervision and they were quite freely --

8 they were quite happy under the terms of the second agreement to have

9 those weapons that they did show me put under UN supervision.

10 Q. All right. You don't know but you assume that they did; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace, may I remind you that there's not much

14 time left. Could you finish in ten minutes?

15 MR. IERACE: I will try, Mr. President.

16 Q. The workshop under the PTT, when did that close down?

17 A. It was still operating when I left.

18 Q. I suggest to you that's incorrect?

19 A. As far as I was aware, on the 20th of September, it was still

20 operating.

21 Q. Were there times when the UN staff took refuge in the basement

22 during shellings?

23 A. That is true.

24 Q. And was that on the same floor as the workshop?

25 A. No.

Page 20042

1 Q. Was the workshop -- how many floors were there underground?

2 A. There were through sublevels, the first sublevel was the one

3 where the UN took cover during shelling, the second sublevel was the

4 workshop, the third sublevel was the car park, underground car park where

5 we had our UN vehicles parked.

6 Q. Sir, it was hardly secret when the BBC could not only film it but

7 film it in operation, was it?

8 A. That's very true. The BBC were camped on our front doorstep.

9 There was a small office directly on the very, very ground level -- I

10 mean if you look at the PTT building, there's a large ramp which goes up

11 and covers the sublevels and then you basically got a large open car park

12 which is basically the ground floor then you've got three sublevels below

13 that.

14 The BBC were parked with their satellite dish and all their

15 communications in an office which was off to the side of the actual ramp

16 that went up to the car park.

17 Q. You've also said the other day that the mobile mortar or mortars

18 in Sarajevo fired several times a day. That's a guess on your part, isn't

19 it?

20 A. It is, but I had observers who actually saw this vehicle, I mean

21 or vehicles running around Sarajevo doing precisely that.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. I mean I had observers --

24 Q. Please stop. You've answered the question.

25 A. Okay.

Page 20043

1 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have to object because the

4 witness was going to add something that was relevant with regard to the

5 extent, the area, I think.

6 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, the question was that's a guess on

7 your part, isn't it, answer, it is.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that question has been answered and Mr. Ierace

9 is free to use his time of course he could not stop if he would have

10 asked anything else the witness should have had an opportunity to further

11 explain.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Ierace.

13 MR. IERACE:

14 Q. The anti-sniping team sent into the PTT by the Presidency, having

15 regard to your statement, was that on the 22nd of May that they came in?

16 A. I have no idea of the actual date but I know that -- I know that

17 was -- it was very close to that because that was, I mean, a very -- the

18 war basically started --

19 Q. Please stop. Would you please look at your statement, page 6?

20 A. I have it highlighted.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. 22nd of May.

23 Q. Thank you. The correspondents who lived in Sarajevo by mid-1992

24 had to understand at least for reasons of their own safety, apart from

25 any other reason, the approximate positions of the confrontation lines

Page 20044

1 around the city, didn't they?

2 A. It's true.

3 Q. The footage that you were shown by the Defence when the building

4 close to the Holiday Inn was hit included tracer fire, didn't it?

5 A. True.

6 Q. It would have been an easy matter for, in that instance, Kate

7 Adie, I think it was, to observe, by looking at the tracer fire, where it

8 was coming from, wouldn't it?

9 A. It should have been but the media were limited in where they could

10 go and I mean you've actually shown that yourself.

11 Q. Please, please, listen to this: I'm not asking where she went but

12 what she could see and indeed what we could see indicated there was tracer

13 fire if she was able to see along that line of tracer fire unimpeded, she

14 should have been able to see which side of the confrontation line it was

15 coming from, would you agree or disagree?

16 A. I would only agree if she was in a very elevated position and she

17 had full observation in order to do that and I mean she would have to be

18 up like we were on top of the PTT where we had our observation post or she

19 would have to be on the ridge line where we had our OP up in Papa 7. Up

20 here.

21 Q. All right. The -- excuse me, Mr. President.

22 Mr. President, the Prosecution has a number of other taped

23 excerpts with transcripts that I'd like to show to the witness. There's

24 about 10 minutes worth and there's probably about 10 minutes worth of

25 questions involved.

Page 20045

1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber allows you to do it and let's then

2 finish then at the break so just shortly after 12:30.

3 MR. IERACE: We don't have transcripts for two of those segments

4 so I won't show those.

5 For the benefit of the video booth can we see, can we start to

6 watch one segment at a time, the particular videotape which had the visit

7 by Sir Douglas Hurd, not that segment, that was the first segment on the

8 tape but from the beginning of the second segment on that tape and I --

9 whilst that's being located and set up, we hand out some transcripts.

10 Mr. President, we've been working elsewhere in the building this

11 morning preparing transcript we simply haven't been able to -- we're

12 still working on it but we don't have yet the transcript for the last two

13 segments.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we expected they would drop in one by one. The

15 video director has some difficulty in knowing exactly what he is now

16 supposed to play.

17 MR. IERACE: The tape is P3793 if that assists and if we could

18 skip the first segment on that tape and commence from the beginning of

19 the second segment.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please look at the video, Mr. Gray?

21 It's -- we are not there yet. I apologise. Could you now please look at

22 the video, Mr. Gray? The sequence may be played, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: Yes.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MR. IERACE: Please pause there.

Page 20046

1 Q. Do you recognise the voice of Martin Bell?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Do you recollect if ever you knew what month it was when that

4 interview with General MacKenzie took place?

5 A. It would probably be in July.

6 MR. IERACE: All right. Next segment, please.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. IERACE:

9 Q. Again, that was Martin Bell; is that correct?

10 A. True.

11 Q. Incidentally, when you were shown photographs of the tracer fire

12 against the building next to the Holiday Inn you were asked about some

13 holes on the side and you said they were tank rounds fired by the Serbs.

14 Do you know why they did that?

15 A. The Holiday Inn was actually used by snipers --

16 Q. Please stop. Not the Holiday Inn the building that was nearby

17 that was hit by a tank?

18 A. Okay. Both of those buildings were being used by snipers. Have a

19 look at the area around those buildings and see how high above they are

20 and what visibility you get from them and you realise why they were being

21 used as snipers.

22 Q. Do you recognise that building in that photograph to be the same

23 building which we saw in the clip a minute ago?

24 A. No, I can't. I mean it looks very similar but I mean I cannot --

25 I mean you have to show me the clip again.

Page 20047

1 Q. Okay. You heard a reference to the fire in the upper storeys

2 being left to burn out. Isn't it the position that when firemen tried to

3 put out fires in Sarajevo after the conflict broke out, and throughout

4 1992, that firemen would be sniped?

5 A. Everyone was being sniped at.

6 Q. Do you have a difficulty in agreeing with that question, Mr. Gray?

7 A. No I agree that they were being sniped at.

8 Q. You agree by saying everyone was being sniped?

9 A. Yes, everyone.

10 Q. Including firemen when they were attempting to put out fires; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, we saw also a reference to a Ukranian soldier being shot

14 dead. Even though the Sarajevans clearly had misgivings about the UN

15 mission, it was not in their interests for the UN to withdraw completely,

16 was it?

17 A. True. Can I make a comment?

18 Q. No, I suggest to you that in terms of strategy and tactics, it

19 may well have been in the interests of the Bosnian Serb army for the UN

20 to withdraw?

21 A. I disagree.

22 MR. IERACE: Might we now see the next clip.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was the comment you'd like to make,

24 Mr. Gray?

25 THE WITNESS: The UN were -- sorry and I had nothing to do with

Page 20048

1 it so -- were extremely unwise in the selection of the battalions that

2 they sent to Sarajevo. They sent a Ukranian Battalion who ethnically

3 were linked with the Serbs and they sent an Egyptian Battalion who

4 religiously were linked to the Muslims. They had a French Battalion there

5 who were neutral but I mean the reason that the Ukrainians were targeted

6 was clearly because the local population saw them as ethnically-linked to

7 the Bosnian Serbs. That's my comment. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IERACE:

10 Q. Mr. Gray, that assumes, of course, that the shooting was coming

11 from the -- what you call the Muslims, doesn't it?

12 A. It does assume that, yes, you're correct, but I mean if you have a

13 look at the position of Marsal Tito barracks, have a look at where it is

14 and then have a look at the ground --

15 Q. Yes, I think we're familiar with the position of the Marsal Tito

16 barracks. Would you please now watch the next clip?

17 A. Yeah sure.

18 [Videotape played]

19 MR. IERACE:

20 Q. Martin Bell again?

21 A. True.

22 Q. He said, "What made this time different was that for the first

23 time in the city centre, some of the incoming fire," I emphasise those

24 words, "was not directed at the government positions, the target instead

25 was the UN Ukranian troops who were part of the UN force." Did you hear

Page 20049

1 him say those words?

2 A. I did.

3 Q. His perception is that it was incoming not from within the city;

4 correct?

5 A. His perception, yes.

6 Q. Did you hear him say those words?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 Q. All right. Now, also on that clip we saw an attack on the

9 Presidency. When, approximately, were the Ukranian barracks destroyed,

10 as we saw on the video, what month?

11 A. I think it was in August.

12 Q. Would it be fair to say that from time to time, the Presidency

13 was mortared?

14 A. True.

15 MR. IERACE: The next clip, please. Thank you.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. IERACE:

18 Q. I think Kate Adie that time quite clearly, she identified herself?

19 A. True.

20 Q. She referred to fire at fight as being indiscriminate, would you

21 agree with that, given the cover of dark?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. Do you accept that if you fire at a target in a city

24 at night if you don't have light and you don't have night vision then by

25 its nature it's indiscriminate?

Page 20050

1 A. You can line up targets by daytime to a fire by night and you set

2 your weapons on fixed lines and that's how you actually determine the

3 target and fire your weapons that way.

4 Q. All right. And when you do that, it's important to check if you

5 had lined up a legitimate target that in the meantime, civilians have not

6 got in the way; would you agree with that or perhaps you wouldn't agree

7 with that?

8 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that.

9 Q. All right. She said that the onslaught, she called it, a Serbian

10 onslaught is possibly in retaliation for an attempt by the Bosnian to

11 break out from the siege in the past few days. We've heard a lot of

12 evidence, Mr. Gray, that indiscriminate fire would often be levelled at

13 the city seemingly in retaliation for a Bosnian either success or

14 initiative in a military sense do you agree with that or disagree with

15 that?

16 A. I agree with that.

17 Q. We saw a huge fire as she described it with the Bosnian national

18 library --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Ierace I will just let you finish this question

20 then please pause.

21 MR. IERACE:

22 Q. And there was reference to the London conference, when was the

23 London conference, what month?

24 A. I don't know. I think it was in June.

25 Q. And at that stage had the library already been shelled before the

Page 20051

1 fire?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did the fire destroy it?

4 A. The fire did destroy it, yes.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Ierace, the Chamber wonders whether it's of

7 any further assistance of the Chamber to hear the comment of this witness

8 on the clips of video. We also heard a lot of evidence that reporting was

9 not always giving a full and -- account of everything that happened and --

10 but apart from that, it's mainly comment of the witness to --

11 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, to save time, one of the remaining

12 clips is the full version of the segment showing the tracer fire. That

13 is -- that part which dealt with the tracer fire. I'm happy to not show

14 that to witness but to tender it anyway so that the Trial Chamber has --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Tracer fire, what -- the clip already played before.

16 MR. IERACE: The Defence played part of it but not -- it didn't

17 capture all of the --

18 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I had in mind to ask that clip

19 be played again because I have some questions to it so perhaps we could

20 then play the whole part, the whole clip.

21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. In order

23 to save time, I think that the Prosecution has used up more time than was

24 allocated to them now.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... questions, Mr.

Page 20052

1 Ierace.

2 MR. IERACE: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'll just check the --

3 JUDGE ORIE: You took a lot of time in asking comment of the

4 witness on these video clips and --

5 MR. IERACE: Well Mr. President, I'm happy to just leave it with

6 the --

7 JUDGE ORIE: This is just to indicate that the way you used your

8 time, I mean the Chamber, as you may know, does not easily stop a line of

9 presenting evidence but here the Chamber considered that you might have

10 been more restrictive to -- for yourself.

11 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

12 MR. IERACE: Can I answer that question, first, Mr. President?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Pardon.

14 MR. IERACE: You asked me a question may I respond?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please respond to the question.

16 Mr. President, I'm happy, given what you're said, to perhaps

17 finish by allowing the witness to view that clip again or alternatively

18 not do that but make it available to the Bench for that fuller version to

19 be shown to the witness during your questions.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, as I indicated before if it's a fuller version

21 then we'll look at the fuller version when we see that clip.

22 No further questions, Mr. Ierace.

23 MR. IERACE: No, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until 1.00.

25 Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I interrupted you, as a matter of fact, Mr.

Page 20053

1 Ierace asked if he could first respond to my question. Please respond.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you. Given the number

3 of issues raised in the course of cross-examination and the time that

4 remains, I am under the impression that if you have questions and I think

5 that you will, I don't think we'll be able to round everything up in three

6 quarters of an hour that now remain.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We might not finish that and --

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] As a result, perhaps we could

9 inform the witness of this.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, it might be the case that we cannot finish

11 your testimony today.

12 THE WITNESS: Sorry.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It might be that we cannot finish your testimony

14 today. I'm seeing that you are not quite happy with that. Would you

15 still be available next Monday.

16 THE WITNESS: On Monday?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's Friday today and during the weekend, we

18 cannot sit, unfortunately.

19 THE WITNESS: I came here for one single purpose and that was to

20 testify at this Tribunal. That was my only purpose.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: I've done no sightseeing, I've doing nothing. I've

23 just sat in my hotel room or sit in a courtroom. That's all. I will

24 finish the job.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps you might have then a bit of time

Page 20054

1 during the weekend for sightseeing. We'll adjourn until 1.00.

2 --- Break taken at 12:40 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 1.04 p.m.

4 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I've been informed now by the Defence

5 as to the subject matter of the meeting.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

7 MR. IERACE: Simply ask this question, is it really necessary to

8 have a meeting to deal with that subject matter?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I wondered whether it would be necessary but at the

10 same time, I considered it to be better to give an opportunity to explain

11 and if it's preferred not to be done in Court I will be glad to listen to

12 it and see what to do then.

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, would it be possible to have the

14 meeting at a slightly later time?

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at you, Madam Registrar. 3.00, is

16 that --

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Since one of the legal officers and a representative

19 of the registry will be -- will have to be present as well --

20 MR. IERACE: An alternative, Mr. President, might be since we're

21 sitting in the afternoon on Monday, that we have it on Monday morning.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just hear from Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

23 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to

24 remind that I have to go to Geneva very frequently, that I'm not based in

25 The Hague which is also the case today and we've accepted this date, this

Page 20055

1 hour; however, we'd like also to seize upon this occasion to raise some

2 other points and General Galic has just reminded me that it is very

3 important for him also in view of his exhaustion and he has also reminded

4 me of that.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At what time does your flight go,

6 Mr. Piletta-Zanin?

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Well, it's late afternoon,

8 rather.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then try to be very efficient, having lived in

10 The Hague for some 20 years, I know approximately what the distance to

11 Schipol airport is so we'll try to keep that in mind if you keep it in

12 mind as well and be as efficient as possible we could have a brief meeting

13 at 3.00.

14 Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into the courtroom.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, could I also indicate that the fuller

17 version of that incident we discussed earlier has not yet been

18 transcribed, that was towards the end of the tape.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It might not be played by today, I'm not quite sure,

20 but I would like to ask the parties, Mr. Gray has been in Sarajevo in a

21 time period certainly of importance for the conflict. It is prior to

22 the -- at least most of the time was prior to the period of the

23 indictment. Both parties have given lengthy information, have presented

24 lengthy information about what happened in that period, it's not for the

25 first time that we hear information of it. Let's try not to cover

Page 20056

1 whatever has been said by whomever during a period of six months, both

2 parties have already taken a long time in respect of that so some

3 self-restriction would not be bad. Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Piletta-Zanin:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness I do not know you still have with you

7 but then the usher will help us if you don't, P7388. These were the

8 fragments taken from what General MacKenzie was saying. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gray, may I ask you -- well first of all, you

10 have a bit of problem with your -- yes, may I ask you not to mark, if not

11 specifically asked for on any document that is in front of you because we

12 noticed that you have made some yellow markings on other documents and --

13 THE WITNESS: This is the document that was given to me yesterday.

14 This is the one that just was given to me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Just the request is not to mark on the one given to

16 you now and you should take the one given to you now in front of you.

17 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. President,

18 first, I will start with the real beginning and the real beginning is

19 first to apologise to the witness and I'm very happy to do that because by

20 mistake last night, we finished late and I took away, in my file, a

21 document which comes from his own file and which was circulated by the

22 Prosecution and the Defence and it is this document and I'd like to return

23 it after you have seen it, Mr. President, I'd like it to be given back to

24 the witness because it is one of his documents which, by mistake, some how

25 I happened to take away.

Page 20057

1 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, I note that I still have one of those

2 documents as well.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That was my second question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 THE WITNESS: I was looking for those documents this morning.

6 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies. My apologies

7 on the part of the Defence.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try to make your return into the any poorer

9 than you came, Mr. Gray.

10 THE WITNESS: I thought I was going crazy I looked for these

11 forever.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] My apologies once again.

13 Q. Witness, will you please concentrate on page 457 and the last

14 paragraph which starts with on Douglas Hurd's and so on and so forth.

15 Will you please read that first sentence?

16 A. "On Douglas Hurd's arrival, there were ten to fifteen members of

17 the TDF on either side of the building's entrance as a sort of honour

18 guard."

19 Q. Thank you. This honour guard which was therefore on both sides

20 of the entrance had nothing to do with, I think, the line --

21 MR. IERACE: I object.

22 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I haven't finished my

23 question.

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... was already

25 there, Mr. Piletta-Zanin. If you didn't ask for what you were telling

Page 20058

1 the witness it was not necessary. If you want to ask the witness about

2 what you were telling him, it was leading. Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I will be very happy to do

4 that.

5 Q. The entrance of the building -- no, I'll rephrase it.

6 Do you remember the -- those ten or fifteen men who constituted

7 the honour guard?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you remember when were they

10 constituted in relation to the incident that you spoke about?

11 A. They were lined up on the road at about 5, 10 metre intervals and

12 immediately prior to the incident, they moved from, as I looked from the

13 actual main entrance of the Presidency, they moved from left to right and

14 the liaison officers who were standing next to me outside the front

15 entrance actually moved inside.

16 Q. Thank you. Very well. Witness, you made some precisions in your

17 testimony this morning and I believe to have understood you that you more

18 precisely information regarding the presence or absence of General

19 MacKenzie; is that correct?

20 A. That's true.

21 Q. Thank you. Will you now tell us whether, as far as you can

22 remember, he was present or absent?

23 A. Absent.

24 Q. Thank you. Therefore, witness, when General MacKenzie describes

25 the situation, that is, this guard of honour that was there, as a matter

Page 20059

1 of fact, he was not an eye witness, was he?

2 MR. IERACE: Well, Mr. President, I object for two reasons.

3 Firstly it's leading and secondly, it covers -- it adds nothing to

4 cross-examination. There's no greyness about cross-examination on this

5 point. The witness has already given clear evidence of that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, if you want to establish that

7 someone who is not present and that was the testimony of the witness, if

8 he writes a book that it could not be of his own observation, I mean the

9 Chamber is -- has sufficient intelligence available to understand such

10 things.

11 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. President.

12 Another subject.

13 Q. On the other hand, and as I do not perhaps -- the Chamber is not

14 aware also of certain techniques, for instance, Witness, you mentioned

15 several times concerning this incident you mentioned the primary. I will

16 ask you the following question?

17 MR. IERACE: There was no cross-examination in relation to that

18 aspect of the witness' evidence in chief.

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I respond

20 when the witness wanted to give his explanation, he resorted -- he said

21 but there was a -- this primary and it was stopped and therefore, I am

22 referring to what he said and that is why I'd like an opinion.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... it was -- the

24 primary was an issue raised in chief. If, in cross-examination, for

25 whatever reason, further questions are put to that, you can't say that

Page 20060

1 the matter has been raised in chief even if the Prosecution thought it not

2 necessary to hear any additional observations not specifically asked for

3 by the Prosecution. I'll allow you this question but at the same time,

4 the Chamber will be more strict on any future question.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

6 MR. IERACE: [Previous translation continues] ... not go into that

7 because of time issues. If Mr. Piletta-Zanin raises this issue now, I'd

8 seek leave to cross-examine the witness on the issue of primaries.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I'll change the subject with

11 pleasure. Therefore, I'm changing it.

12 Q. The hearing on the 20th, you were again interrupted and we were

13 talking about a mortar shot which hit the facade of the building that you

14 were living in and that you told us that there were hundreds of persons

15 living in that building and you also said the following and I quote, [In

16 English] The civilians moved from the very front wall of the apartment

17 building, they moved into [Interpretation] and then you were stopped at

18 that point by the Prosecutor.

19 Since you said that those civilians, if I understand you well,

20 retreated, moved away from the front wall and you were about to add

21 something, to add the more information to it, I'd like to ask you to do

22 that now?

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... when the

24 witness started and was interrupted.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes. The sentence -- no, I

Page 20061

1 can't remember it exactly but I'd like to quote.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You have misunderstood my question. I'm not

3 referring to return fire from the UN I'm saying in relation -- so the

4 witness was stopped in giving an answer where he misunderstood the

5 question. It's not an issue that has been raised in cross-examination,

6 please move to your next subject.

7 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I confer?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Moved away from the front war appears in a line where the witness

10 said, "I mean we weren't returning any fire. I mean the civilians

11 basically moved from the very front wall of the apartment building, they

12 moved into the" -- and then was interrupted. That was ...

13 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but if

14 one looks at the whole of the question as such, he was interrupted

15 because sure, first he said we did not return fire, but the base of the

16 question which wanted to find out whether there were any inhabitants

17 there or not, he wanted to answer that and that information is highly

18 valuable and I do not think it has anything to do with that. We never

19 returned fire, but he was talking about the situation in that building at

20 a given moment in relation to the incident of a shot.

21 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... what you've

22 got, do you have four civilians on the other side when you returned fire

23 if any? That was a question about civilians at the other side of the

24 confrontation line when the fire was returned. Then the witness started

25 telling about civilians on his own part. Then Mr. Ierace stopped him

Page 20062

1 because he was not asking for that. So it's not an issue raised by the

2 Prosecution in cross-examination. Please proceed to the next subject.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. On the other hand, immediately after that and I believe the

5 Prosecution asks you a question about whether you informed the commander

6 that a civilian -- that there were civilians in that building and after

7 that you were asked whether the fire -- the gunfire continued and there

8 you answered, "No, not often, two or three times." Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. So my question is as follows: In relation to those three or four

11 times that you mentioned, could you tell us if, at that time, on those

12 three or four occasions, the relevant building -- whether there were

13 civilians still living in that building and where were those civilians if

14 there still were there any civilians or if not, whether, perhaps, there

15 were only the military left or were both groups of people still there?

16 A. Yes, there were civilians there, but they're on the -- what I

17 would call the forward or the western side of the building. It was being

18 used by snipers to snipe at Nedzarici, so I mean there was a combination

19 of both but I mean my neighbours were still living in their apartment,

20 they were on the rearward, the eastward side of the building. The

21 westward side, the apartments had mostly been evacuated and they had moved

22 away and they were either moved into other buildings but the westward side

23 of my building and the other building in the actual complex were being

24 used by snipers for -- against Nedzarici.

25 Q. Can you be more precise as to the time that this happened at the

Page 20063

1 very beginning or of the developments such as you knew them in Sarajevo

2 at some other time or did it happen throughout your tour of duty in

3 Sarajevo?

4 A. It started at the very beginning of the war in Sarajevo or the

5 war in Bosnia and it continued throughout it and the student hostel, what

6 I call the student hostel, the triangular building which is marked on the

7 map which I marked two days ago, I think, that was also being used

8 against Nedzarici and the Serbian positions that were in Nedzarici.

9 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact what you tell us after -- about

10 this time, did you, and I'm talking about the military, did you consider

11 the response of three or four mortar shots, did you consider it

12 disproportionate or proportionate or what would you say about the returned

13 fire?

14 A. Considering the amount of sniper fire and small arms fire coming

15 from the apartment buildings that I was actually living in, it was

16 probably proportionate.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like us to go back to what you told us and

18 we are still at this building and in answering the Prosecutor, you said

19 that those buildings were used as a kind -- as headquarters for units of

20 combat and you spoke about young men with bandannas, with headbands

21 indicating who they belonged to. I'm saying, I'm showing who they

22 belonged to and therefore my question is as follows: Since there were

23 different colours indicating different membership, can you -- affiliation,

24 what affiliations were they, were they companies or what, did they also

25 refer to the size of these groups, can you tell us something about that?

Page 20064

1 A. They showed the affiliation to companies of the Territorial

2 Defence force, the Presidency forces. I mean there are also armoured

3 vehicles that were in -- directly inside the apartment complex that I was

4 in.

5 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, it took me a moment to check the

6 transcript. I don't see any reference to headquarters which is

7 included -- which was included in the question.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Translation, translation, I

9 never mentioned "headquarters," I heard that in English. I spoke about a

10 combat base. I think that the term was "mounting up operation" if that

11 can be of any assistance to my learned colleague but this is on the basis

12 of my memory.

13 A. The term I used was forming up place, that is the term that I

14 used. They used it as a forming-up place to actually attack towards

15 Nedzarici.

16 Q. Thank you. May I continue?

17 JUDGE ORIE: But I would like to instruct you, Mr. Gray, if a

18 question is put to you, try to listen carefully to the question and

19 answer that question and if there's anything else Mr. Piletta-Zanin would

20 like to know he'll certainly ask you. You were asked about what the

21 colours were about and I think you ended up with APCs in or next to the

22 building. That has got nothing to do anymore with the colours.

23 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to provide as much as information as I

24 can.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand and we fully appreciate that but --

Page 20065

1 THE WITNESS: I am sorry.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. We'll return to the armoured vehicle. You

5 mentioned being part of the Territorial Defence but why several colours

6 since if one is part of the Territorial Defence it seems to me that one

7 colour would have been sufficient?

8 A. It was to differentiate between units, so I mean there were more

9 than one unit actually working in and around our apartments.

10 Q. Thank you. When you used the term "units," from a military

11 perspective, what size are you referring to? What is the size of the

12 unit, how many men are included in a unit?

13 MR. IERACE: Mr. President, this goes well beyond

14 cross-examination it goes well beyond the questions asked, the answers

15 given.

16 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] May I respond?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Where the specific question of units and size of

18 units was dealt with in cross-examination?

19 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I could perhaps find it again

20 but certainly not as far as the size of units is concerned but the witness

21 spoke about these different units and what we should be interested in is

22 to find out whether we're speaking about number X or number Y.

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... but the question

24 was to what extent this relates to what has been raised in

25 cross-examination not the mere fact that it has been -- but -- sometimes

Page 20066

1 it's quicker.

2 Do you know how big these units were, Mr. Gray?

3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. They had the blue and red and they were

4 of approximately company size which would be 100 men.

5 JUDGE ORIE: And how many would there be in that building?

6 THE WITNESS: There were -- I mean when I saw them, they were

7 getting ready to attack Nedzarici and there were at least two companies

8 of them so we're talking 200 men.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please move to your next question.

10 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. The other thing is that the witness has just provided some

12 information about an APC, may I ask him about this?

13 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... and it has not

14 come up in cross-examination. Please proceed.

15 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] You're quite right. Thank

16 you. I'll go back to the bombing incident.

17 Q. You told us in order to explain your view and your conception of

18 this incident, you said something to the effect of, "I was, myself, in

19 the convoy or I was in an APC myself," and at that point you were

20 interrupted. My question is what did you want to say exactly since, if I

21 have understood you correctly, you arrived in a UN vehicle before the

22 politician. My question is as follows: Did you have just one vehicle,

23 did you have several vehicles when you arrived at the Presidency building?

24 A. I only had one vehicle. I went by a VBL, which is one of the

25 small APCs you can see it in the videotapes.

Page 20067

1 Q. Thank you. I'll now go back to the incident that you refer to as

2 involving a bomb in the market. You were asked a certain number of

3 questions about the reasons for which you didn't establish contact with

4 certain authorities or with certain journalists and you said that that

5 wasn't part of your duties. I would like you to expand on that last

6 point. I think you said that it wasn't your task?

7 A. That is correct. We were unarmed military observers. Because we

8 had the expertise there at the time, we went to investigate the actual --

9 whether or not it had been caused by artillery or mortars or whatever, we

10 considered that it was not caused by artillery or mortar, that it was

11 actually a plain bomb that someone had placed there. We gave that

12 information to the sector headquarters. Sector headquarters, it was then

13 up to them to actually do any further investigation. It was not our job.

14 We merely had the professional people who could establish what had

15 actually hit or exploded in the actual market.

16 Q. You said that at that time, there was only one crater. Are you

17 categorical about that?

18 A. I am sure of it, yes. There was only one.

19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, as far as you know, what kind of

20 calibres were used, as far as you know, by the forces that were present,

21 this concerns mortars?

22 A. The calibres used were an 82 millimetre mortar, 120 millimetre

23 mortar, 122 millimetre howitzer, 105 millimetre howitzer, a single

24 barreled rocket launchers of 128, I think, millimetre, multi-barreled

25 rocket launchers of 128 millimetre, and that was -- and small arms and

Page 20068

1 heavy machine-guns. That basically covers the whole lot.

2 Q. Thank you. I'd like to examine the other incident with regard to

3 this incident you provided with a copy of General MacKenzie's book an

4 excerpt from this book and you were asked to have a look at certain

5 passages where rumours were mentioned.

6 My question is: Were these rumours widespread or were they not

7 widespread among UN personnel? What could you tell us about this subject?

8 A. I presume you're referring --

9 MR. IERACE: Objection, Mr. President, again in terms of it not

10 arising from cross-examination. He was asked specific questions about

11 the incident and about sources of information.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. IERACE: That is in terms of eyewitnesses.

14 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The

15 credibility of this witness has been tested at length, for example, he

16 was told you were the only source of this information, this was one of

17 the questions and I note that there is a text that one can read or reread

18 here and which talks of other sources so I think that in this sense, I

19 have the right to pursue this course of examination.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I will not disallow you to put that question, but it

21 took you seven lines to put that question. The question was, Mr. Gray

22 whether in the book -- General MacKenzie talks about rumours, whether

23 these rumours were also among your people heard.

24 THE WITNESS: Can you -- I'm sorry, can you direct me to the

25 specific part of the text?

Page 20069

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, could you please assist me where

2 exactly do you --

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I apologise, 456, 457 at the

5 very end of the page. 457, Mr. President.

6 THE WITNESS: Okay, I understand.

7 MR. IERACE: But Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 MR. IERACE: The witness has already said in cross-examination

10 that he was the only UN person there.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think it was whether the rumours spread

12 among UN personnel.

13 MR. IERACE: And the explanation that Mr. Piletta-Zanin gave for

14 that question for no similarity to that question, the question was about

15 rumours how widespread. His justification was sources of information in

16 terms of eyewitnesses.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Piletta-Zanin, is it -- do you want to

18 establish that on the basis of rumours the witness would have had

19 additional information? I have some difficulty in exactly finding the

20 rumours.

21 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President, the word

22 rumours doesn't appear in the text but at the bottom of the page, the

23 mention was made of [In English] by the Presidency.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, everyone who witnessed the event and did not

25 the witness testify that he was the only one from the UN who witnessed

Page 20070

1 the event.

2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, that was

3 my question. I can't say this if the witness doesn't --

4 JUDGE ORIE: If I read the last three lines, it says there was

5 only circumstantial evidence, but everyone who witnessed the event had an

6 uneasy feeling that it had been orchestrated, et cetera.

7 Rumours do not appear in that part of the book.

8 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I agree with you absolutely.

9 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... was around

10 among UN people is not something that arises from cross-examination.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, you nevertheless said that you had spoken to General

14 MacKenzie after this event?

15 A. Yes, I gave him a full report and this is where this came from in

16 his book and the report was sent to the UN headquarters in Zagreb.

17 Q. Did you speak to him directly, that is to say, did you express

18 yourself verbally to General MacKenzie in addition to this written

19 report?

20 MR. IERACE: I specifically asked the witness in

21 cross-examination, did you speak to General MacKenzie personally and if

22 so when and he gave evidence that he spoke to him about this incident

23 after it and he gave him a full account this simply repeats

24 cross-examination.

25 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President. What I

Page 20071

1 would like to know is how long after the incident this happened.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Why don't you ask then the witness?

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] That's what I'm trying to do.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, you -- witness you nevertheless

5 said you had spoken to General MacKenzie after the event. Yes, I gave him

6 a full report and did you speak directly that is to say did you express

7 yourself verbally to General MacKenzie in addition to this written report

8 and then he answered -- these two issues have been what you could have

9 asked the witness when you orally reported on the incident to General

10 MacKenzie, did you speak to him once or did you speak -- how much time

11 after the event did you speak to him.

12 And could you please answer the question?

13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, sure. Immediately after the meeting by

14 Douglas Hurd, we returned from the Presidency.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, immediately after the --

16 THE WITNESS: Immediately after.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And I think that that was even already in his

18 testimony in cross-examination but I would have to look that up.

19 THE WITNESS: Immediately after.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, and we have now

21 had five, six times where you really go beyond all our repetitions in

22 respect of the cross-examination and also on issues that might not be that

23 vital for either the case of the Prosecution or the case of the Defence

24 but of course, you never can know but it's certainly it's no reason to ask

25 questions again to the same witness.

Page 20072

1 Apart from that, we -- it's a quarter to 2.00. We'll finish for

2 now.

3 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] I have certain translation

6 issues that I wanted to address but there's no point since no one is

7 interested but quite simply I didn't have part of the translation of what

8 you said because you were going far too fast for the interpreters. We can

9 stop here.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Piletta-Zanin, I will adjourn until next Monday

11 madam registrar at -- 9.00 a.m. Could the witness already perhaps be

12 escorted out of the -- so we'll adjourn until 9.00 a.m., Mr. Gray. I

13 instructed you again not to speak with anyone about --

14 THE WITNESS: If the Prosecution would like any of the documents

15 that I have, I have no problem with that. I mean I made that offer

16 before so --

17 JUDGE ORIE: If you intend to leave them all with the Registry so

18 that the parties could inspect them, that's fine. If there's any need,

19 I'm just looking to either Prosecution or Defence. No, there's not. You

20 may take them and avoid the risk that they keep your documents, Mr. Gray.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

23 MR. IERACE: Just before you adjourn, I think the next witness is

24 the shelling expert, Defence shelling expert.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Dr. Vilicic.

Page 20073

1 MR. IERACE: And a number of times I've asked in Court for copies

2 of the three maps which are referred to in Dr. Vilicic's report. I've

3 received a letter from the Defence referring to one map. I'd simply like

4 to get this sorted out this afternoon. Could the Defence meet with

5 Mr. Stamp and show Mr. Stamp the three maps because we still have not

6 been given them?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Can that be arranged, Ms. Pilipovic.

8 MS. PILIPOVIC: [Interpretation] Yeah, we can do it now. Yes,

9 Your Honour, first of all, it's a map on the scale 1:50.000, it was a map

10 that was marked as C2 and it was with the Registry. One map is on the

11 scale of 1:25.000 it has been copied and it was provided to the

12 Prosecution a few days ago I think and there was a third map, I don't know

13 about that, perhaps they're thinking about the map that was found on the

14 Internet.

15 MR. IERACE: To save time, Mr. President, perhaps Ms. Pilipovic

16 could meet with Mr. Stamp at 3.00 perhaps because there are still issues

17 and he is the next witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that this will resolve this

19 afternoon. Then we will adjourn until next Monday, but not before I've

20 said, Mr. Piletta-Zanin, that remarks like no one is interested in

21 translation matters and that we now can stop here are inappropriate and I

22 expect a bit different behaviour next week. We will adjourn until

23 Monday.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of

Page 20074

1 February, 2003, at 9:00 a.m.

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25