Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1042

1 Wednesday, 9 April 2008.

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, good morning everyone

8 in the courtroom, this is case number IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Ante Gotovina et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11 MFIs still pending from yesterday, I take it that you will

12 receive shortly by e-mail, please prepare for your position in respect of

13 those exhibits which are still MFIed, and then we'll deal with them later

14 this morning.

15 Mr. Waespi, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

16 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

17 Honours. Yes, my colleague, Prashanthi Mahindaratne will lead this

18 witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Mahindaratne. Has the Chamber no

20 protective measures for the next witness?

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then that would be Mr. Flynn; is that correct?

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct, Mr. President, the Prosecution

24 calls Mr. Edward Flynn.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then ask the usher to escort the witness

Page 1043

1 into the courtroom. Perhaps I could already explore whether we need to

2 spend much time on admission of the 92 ter statement. Does the Chamber

3 hear any objections?

4 I see Mr. Cayley nodding no; Mr. Kurzmanovic nodding no;

5 Mr. Misetic nodding no.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Flynn, I take it.

8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

10 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

11 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The

12 text will now be handed out to you by the usher. I invite you to make

13 that solemn declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Flynn. Please be seated.

18 You will first be examined by Ms. Mahindaratne who is counsel for

19 the Prosecution in this case.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, you indicated that we do not

23 need to spend too much time in admitting the 92 ter submission. Am I

24 still required to go through the preliminary questions?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Yes, of course, I was just wondering

Page 1044

1 whether, as to the content, whether we would expect any objections by the

2 Defence. But, of course, for admission, Rule 92 ter says exactly what

3 the witness has to ascertain before a statement can be admitted.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you.

5 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

6 Q. Good morning, Mr. Flynn?

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record?

9 A. Edward J. Flynn.

10 Q. Were you interviewed by investigators attached to the Office of

11 the Prosecutor in June 1997, 29th June 1997?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That interview, do you recall it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were you provided with a transcript of that interview

16 subsequently?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Did it reflect accurately the statements you made to the

19 investigators on 29th June 1997?

20 A. Yes, it did.

21 Q. Did you sign that transcript and provide it to the Office of the

22 Prosecutor as your statement in relation to the subject matter of this

23 case on 3rd May 1998?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. On 26th and 27th of February, 2008, did you provide a further

Page 1045

1 supplementary statement to the Office of the Prosecutor including

2 clarifications to your previous statement?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 4781 on the

5 screen, please.

6 Q. Mr. Flynn, last Sunday --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar that needs a number to be assigned to

8 it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P20.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed.


12 Q. Mr. Flynn, last Sunday, 6th April, did you examine your statement

13 of 3rd May, 1998?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, if you were asked today in court the same questions asked of

16 you by the investigators in June 1997, subject to the clarifications you

17 provided in your supplementary statement of 2008, would your answers be

18 the same as those reflected in your statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are the contents of your statement of 3rd May 1998 true, to the

21 best of your knowledge?

22 A. Yes, they are.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, could this document be admitted

24 into evidence, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That statement of Mr. Flynn given 26th and

Page 1046

1 27th of February, 2008, is that a separate document that it needs to be a

2 number to be assigned, or is it an annex to the other statement?

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. They are separate

4 statements.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then the 2008 statement, I think, Mr. Registrar,

6 needs, if he hasn't got it already, a number so that it can be put on our

7 screens and that an exhibit number can be assigned to it.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. That's document number

9 4782, if that can be called up on the screen, please.


11 Mr. Registrar.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will become P21.

13 JUDGE ORIE: P21. It's still not on our screen, but I take it

14 that we'll see it appear soon.

15 No objections, as far as I understand, to both statements. In

16 the absence of any objections, P20 and P21 are admitted into evidence.

17 Please proceed.


19 Q. Mr. Flynn, when you made your supplementary statement on 26th and

20 27th February, 2008, did you examine a number of documents?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Were they all or were most of Human Rights Action Team reports

23 authored or co-authored by you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you identify those documents and authenticate them by way

Page 1047

1 of your supplementary statement?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Last Sunday, 6th April, did you examine those documents?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you satisfied or were you satisfied that the contents of

6 those documents were true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge?

7 A. Yes, I was.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the witness has authenticated

9 25 documents and two videos by way of the supplementary statement P21,

10 which were also submitted as part of the 92 ter submission. Could those

11 documents be given sequential P numbering and admitted into evidence at

12 this stage, or am I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: You asked the witness about documents, not about

14 videos, but I take it that you have reviewed those videos as well.

15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And are you the author of the videos or were

17 you involved in production?

18 THE WITNESS: I wasn't involved in the production, no.

19 JUDGE ORIE: How did you, then -- I mean what did you

20 authenticate?

21 THE WITNESS: I was present when they were filmed.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were present when they were filmed.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, for the record, I would be

24 playing clips, segments of those two videos in court today.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But since you asked the witness only about the

Page 1048

1 documents, I wondered about the videos.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: My apologies.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. I suggest that the registrar prepares

4 a list, that this list will be distributed so that we all know what we

5 are talking about, 25 documents, that he will provisionally assigned P

6 numbers to them, and that we will then hear whether there's any

7 objection, and then a decision can be taken on admission.

8 Meanwhile, you are invited to proceed.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Would this be the appropriate stage, Mr. President, to read out

11 the summary of the witness's testimony?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you kept it short. It's to

13 inform the public.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. Edward Flynn is a senior human rights

17 officer attached to the United Nations Counter-Terrorism Committee. In

18 August 1994, he took up appointment as a human rights field officer and

19 the coordinator of the Zagreb field office of the United Nations High

20 Commissioner For Human Rights. On 7th August, 1995, Mr. Flynn arrived in

21 Knin to take up leadership and organise a system referred to as Human

22 Rights Action Teams. Human Rights Action Teams was set up in response to

23 the human rights violations committed in the immediate aftermath of

24 Operation Storm.

25 The teams comprised of monitors from several UN agencies present

Page 1049

1 on the ground who patrolled the territory together as well as separately

2 and reported the information collectively. Mr. Flynn functioned as a

3 member of the Human Rights Action Teams from 7th August to 17th

4 September; and in this capacity, patrolled the southern part of the

5 Krajina.

6 He witnessed instances of looting by members of the HV and

7 burning and destruction of property in the immediate presence of

8 soldiers.

9 He observed and reported extensive destruction of hamlets

10 villages, and towns, and the recovery of a number of bodies of killed

11 civilians. He reported on complaints received of harassment and

12 intimidation of the remaining Serb population at the hands of members of

13 the Croatian forces.

14 Mr. Flynn was one of the first international monitors to be

15 present in Grubori on 25th August, 1995, and witnessed the burning houses

16 and barns and the bodies of the civilians executed in the incident.

17 Mr. Flynn participated in a number of meetings with the accused

18 Ivan Cermak when the crimes were discussed. He describes Cermak's

19 reactions to that information.

20 Mr. President, that concludes the summary.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne. Please proceed.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, before I proceed, may I be

23 permitted to provide the witness with a binder containing hard copies of

24 the documents as well as hard copies of the statements? The reason being

25 is there are a number of documents involved; and in the course of his

Page 1050

1 testimony, the witness would be required to cross refer between the

2 documents and the statements. And while, of course, we would rely on

3 the -- on e-court for the document being discussed in court principally,

4 I believe that the system would make it more efficient.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Sounds very practical. No objections? Please

6 proceed as you suggested.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 We have provided the binder to Mr. Registrar.

9 Q. Mr. Flynn, in that binder, you have hard copies of your statement

10 that clipped on, both statements as well as the documents, arranged

11 chronologically in tab 4, if you are required to look at them.

12 A. Okay.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 2068 to be

14 brought on the screen, please.

15 Q. Mr. Flynn, if you would --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me. It is not among the 25 you referred to

17 earlier, or is it?

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then it will get a number. So please proceed.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Since it has not got a number so far,

21 Mr. President, I will use the 65 ter numbers in my examination.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, if you happen to have assigned a

23 number already to this one, because we have no access to 65 ter numbers,

24 the Chamber has access to P numbers only.

25 No, that's not correct.

Page 1051

1 Please proceed.


3 Q. Mr. Flynn, if I could refer you to your 2008 statement and I'm

4 referring to P21, at paragraph 11, you refer to your observations made on

5 a patrol taken in the Krajina on 13th August, 1995. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, in the document that was just called up on the screen, if

8 you could focus on paragraph 3.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You recalled your observations?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. And you recalled that the human rights action team travelled to

13 Benkovac through Kistanje and Djeverske on Sunday, and you go on to say:

14 "It is a fair assessment to say that the Krajina is burning. Dozens of

15 fire locations were observed and the view over the Benkovac valley showed

16 at least ten huge plumes of smoke in different locations. Houses were

17 still being set ablaze in Kistanje and the surrounding area and whole

18 folds were burning everywhere. Kistanje, Djeverske, Otric, and other

19 towns have become virtually unlivable by actions which occurred after the

20 fighting. The authorities continue to take no action. The human rights

21 action team believes this issue must be raised at the highest levels for

22 one reason, because it," you then go on to report your observations?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, is that your own report?

25 A. Yes, I wrote that.

Page 1052

1 Q. Is that based on your personal observations?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, in relation to that, in a supplementary statement of 2008,

4 P21, at paragraph 11, you state as follows: "It was on this day that we

5 truly became alarmed at the growing scale of destruction, as it began to

6 look like auto systematic campaign." Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. Can you please clarify that statement? What were the factors

9 that led you and your fellow -- your colleagues to suspect a systematic

10 campaign behind the destruction?

11 A. Well, it was the scale of the burning, the number of houses and

12 fields that were burning, the geographic range of the burning, because a

13 couple of days earlier, we had seen a large number of fires on the road

14 between Knin and Drnis. There were also a number of reports at that time

15 from some other UN observers in the field, and we also noted that

16 virtually all this burning was taking place in areas in which all combat

17 activities had stopped.

18 So there seemed to be no plausible connection, if anyone wished

19 to make one, between any ongoing fighting and the burning. These were

20 areas that seemed to have -- in which the fighting had stopped. It was

21 approximately a week since the end of active military activities in the

22 major villages and towns, and yet there were a very large number of fires

23 taking place.

24 So, I would also add that there had been sporadic reports at that

25 point about uniformed individuals with equipment that might be used to

Page 1053

1 set fires, and so we took that into account as well. But, principally,

2 it was the extremely large scale and simply large number of fires.

3 Q. Thank you for that. Now, in your 2008 statement, that is P21, in

4 paragraph 12, you referred to the presence of a UN TV crew on that

5 particular patrol, and I'm referring to the 13th August patrol, which

6 recorded footage of the destruction you observed. Is that correct?

7 I'm referring you to paragraph 11 of your -- I'm sorry, paragraph

8 12 of your 2008 statement.

9 A. Yes, I see it.

10 Q. Have you seen that footage since?

11 A. Since that day?

12 Q. Since that day.

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, this is one of the videotapes

15 that were submitted with the 92 ter submission, and that entire video

16 contains 12 minutes and 48 seconds of footage; however, to save court

17 time, we have selected five short clips which runs two, three minutes and

18 58 seconds which we will show in court.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of it is tendered?

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The entire tape is tendered into evidence,

21 Mr. President.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections to playing only part of it? I take

23 it the Defence teams have had an opportunity to view. Then please

24 proceed.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could, we

Page 1054

1 will play that on sanction.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, since there is no narration in

4 the course of running the tape, I will ask a few questions relating to

5 the footage, if that is all right.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so. Always referring to the time

7 when it stops. So if the question is about a certain picture, please

8 indicate where the timer is on our screen.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

10 Q. Mr. Flynn, I'm not referring to a particular segment of this

11 tape, but can you tell if, in fact, this footage is being filmed from the

12 vehicle that you were in?

13 A. No. This was being filmed from a second vehicle. We were two

14 vehicles driving from Knin through Kistanje and Djeverske to Benkovac

15 that day.

16 Q. Are you able to identify, generally, this area in which you are

17 patrolling through?

18 A. Yes, I believe this is Kistanje. It may be just going into

19 Djeverske, but I'm pretty sure it's Kistanje. You can see the smoke in

20 the background.

21 Q. Now, in the document I just read, the paragraph, there was a

22 reference to plumes of smoke in the Benkovac valley. Can you identify

23 this area that is being shown right now, and that's about four seconds

24 and -- I beg your pardon.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Make it minutes.

Page 1055

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Minutes, I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

2 A. Those were the plumes of smoke we saw in the Benkovac value at

3 different locations. You can see it also in this picture here with our

4 vehicle.

5 Q. What is the area from which these plumes of smoke are rising?

6 A. That's generally to the west. It's in the direction of Djeverske

7 and Benkovac.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can you go a little bit further and pause by

9 that road sign. Can you pause there, please.

10 Mr. President, we have a clearer picture of that still. If we

11 could call up 4809, that is a still of that last frame.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to tender this as a separate document or

13 is it just to assist us in better viewing.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Just to assist the Trial Chamber,

15 Mr. President.


17 Q. Mr. Flynn, could you just please read that sign board for the

18 record and the directions indicated on that?

19 A. Yes, it says: Kistanje is straight ahead, Bilanovici is to the

20 left, and Knin is to the right.

21 Q. And that plume of smoke you could see in the background, from

22 where is it rising?

23 A. The direction of Kistanje.

24 Q. And where were the vehicles going at this stage, towards which

25 direction?

Page 1056

1 A. We were going toward Kistanje.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Please, if we could move on.

3 Q. Could you generally identify this area, and there I'm referring

4 to 6 minutes and 32 seconds on the time slot?

5 A. Yes. These are images of burning buildings in Kistanje along the

6 main road.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We could move on.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask, if you have just one moment. You

9 said, "burning buildings." It looks to me very much as a burnt

10 buildings. I don't see any fire at this moment.

11 THE WITNESS: Yes, you're right, Your Honour. This building

12 we're looking at right now is not burning, as far as I can see. I recall

13 this video. I think we'll see burning in a moment. So I misspoke.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We can move on.

16 THE WITNESS: We consider it significant, if I may say, that

17 there seem to be no destruction as from some sort of weapon fire on the

18 sides of these buildings. There's evident smoke, indications on the side

19 of the building, and the roof has caved in. So, this building that we're

20 looking at now was not actually burning, but it looked to me as if it had

21 been destroyed by fire, rather than by some sort of weapons fire.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Just to ask that, if a shell falls on the roof and

23 causes a fire, would you see any different if the roof than further

24 burns?

25 THE WITNESS: Possibly not, but I would expect there might be

Page 1057

1 some more damage to the walls, for example.

2 JUDGE ORIE: You would say, due to the explosion, you would see

3 some traces on the walls as well?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I did see, during the course of my time in

5 the conflict area, not only during these two weeks, a large number of

6 buildings that had been destroyed by military activity, by weapons fire,

7 and walls were shattered and there were mortar holes in the walls and

8 that sort of thing. I don't see very much evidence of that here.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, for the record, that discussion

11 was when the tape was paused at 6 minutes and 57 seconds.

12 We can move on.

13 THE WITNESS: That's me getting out of the car.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we just pause there for a minute, please.

15 Q. Mr. Flynn, can you identify the person who is recorded taking a

16 photograph here in this frame?

17 A. Yes. That's Alun Robert who was the chief information officer

18 for the UN mission that was based in Knin.

19 Q. That is at 7 minutes and 53 seconds.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, the sign boards indicate

21 Zadar, 72, Benkovac, and Ervenik.

22 Q. Mr. Flynn, to ask you a question there, the sign board for

23 Ervenik, does that have an arrow head. Can you please comment on that?

24 A. It looks to me like there might have been an arrow head on the

25 right-hand side. It looks like it might have broken off.

Page 1058

1 Q. Can you identify this area? I ask that because since there is no

2 arrow head on the board Ervenik, it seems as if it's -- it announces the

3 name of the place. What is this area which is being filmed here?

4 A. I think it is the centre of Kistanje.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We could move on.

6 THE WITNESS: This is an act of fire here. Again, there are

7 buildings that seemed to have collapsed roofs, but relatively little

8 damage, I would say, to the sides, to the walls. You can see the fire

9 inside the building here, and the roof has collapsed at least in part.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's at minutes 8 and 45 seconds.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Flynn, you said that you saw buildings on fire in

12 response to a question from the Judge. Did you see many buildings on

13 fire, ablaze?

14 A. That day, yes, we did.

15 Q. And were you present during the whole time the footage, the 12

16 minutes and 58 seconds of footage were recorded on this particular

17 patrol?

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. It's 12 minutes and 48 seconds.


20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you. We could move on.

21 THE WITNESS: The roof is collapsing there.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, if you would allow me one

23 additional question.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I earlier asked about possibility of a shell

Page 1059

1 falling, hitting a roof. Were any combat activities reported, let's say,

2 in the 48 hours preceding the moment you visited the area?

3 THE WITNESS: I don't believe there was, Your Honour. I was

4 aware of the reports that had come into the UN headquarters in Knin, and

5 your reference would be to the 11th of August and I don't recall that

6 there was any combat activity in that particular area on that day.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Not any shelling, not any --

8 THE WITNESS: Not in the Kistanje area.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

11 May I call for document number 2131 on the screen, please.

12 Q. Mr. Flynn, in your 1998 statement, and that is P20, from page 25

13 on to page 30, you have described what you observed in the hamlet of

14 Grubori on 25th August, 1995. I'm referring to your previous statement.

15 A. Okay, I'm sorry, which paragraph?

16 Q. Page 25 going on to page 30.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It relates to your observations in Grubori on 25th August, 1995.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, if you observe the screen, the Human Rights Action Team

21 report, for the period 24th to 27th August, includes the observations

22 made by Human Rights Action Teams in Grubori on 25th August, 1995.

23 A. Yes, actually just one team on that day.

24 Q. Was that a team in which you were included?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1060

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could focus on paragraph 1.

2 Q. There is a detailed report of what you observed in Grubori. Is

3 that your own report?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is that an accurate report?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, according to this report, and what you have stated in your

8 own 1998 statement, the Human Rights Action Teams observed five bodies of

9 the civilians killed in the Grubori incident on 25th; and further down

10 the report, there is a reference to all the bodies or a number of five

11 bodies. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes. We did not see all five of those bodies, though, on the

13 25th.

14 Q. There was three -- can you explain as to how the bodies were

15 observed?

16 A. On the 25th, we just saw two of those deceased individuals.

17 Q. And on the 26th?

18 A. My colleague saw three others.

19 Q. So, of the five bodies, you observed two; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you have given a detailed description of the observations of

22 yourself and the other members of the Human Rights Action Team in your

23 statement of 1998 from page 25 to 30?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, in your statement of 2008, that is P21, at paragraph 25, you

Page 1061

1 refer to a UN TV crew being present in Grubori with your patrol and

2 filming the scene in Grubori in your presence; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you seen that footage since?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, this tape that is 2576 also has

7 been tendered under the 92 ter submission. However, this tape is a

8 compilation of footage by UN TV which contains, in addition to the

9 footage relate to go Grubori, the footage of destruction which was just

10 submitted, just played in court. Therefore, the Prosecution does not

11 tender the entire tape in evidence, only the segment which will be played

12 in court now, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in order to avoid whatever confusion, is there

14 a possibility that you prepare a new version on which only the portion

15 played is visible and that we assign a separate exhibit number to that?

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That, then, will have a -- precisely what we

18 see and how long that footage is. Please proceed.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I think it can be played on sanction.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand the whole of the entire tape is

21 tendered in evidence; so, therefore, it would certainly be -- if we make

22 it clear what we see at this moment so that we know what is tendered and

23 what is actually played, I think that would be sufficient.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. For the record --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for --

Page 1062

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, for the record, of this tape,

2 from 42 seconds to 3 minutes and 20 seconds will be presented in court --


4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: -- which is 2 minutes and 51 seconds of

5 footage. That is the only footage we are relying on at this stage, since

6 part of the footage has already been tendered in evidence. The tape also

7 includes a couple of excerpts of an interview with the accused Ivan

8 Cermak, which the Prosecution will tender in evidence later on through

9 the correct, appropriate channel.

10 JUDGE ORIE: But I'm a bit confused, Ms. Mahindaratne. You say

11 that's all on the tape in its entirety.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. The tape is a compilation

13 of footage which has footage of Grubori, the footage of destruction in

14 Kistanje which we just observed, as well as two excerpts of an interview

15 with the accused.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And you tendered the whole of that compilation tape.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We have submitted the entire tape under the

18 92 ter submission, Mr. President, but I will only submit the footage

19 which will be presented in court in evidence at this stage.

20 So, as you directed, we will present a further tape with only

21 this clip to prevent any further confusion.

22 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not entirely clear. The whole of the

23 tape, you say, is attached to the 92 ter statement. It is an attachment

24 to the 92 ter statement. You're seeking the 92 ter statement to be

25 admitted including attachments.

Page 1063

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is correct, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the whole of at that tape, you're seeking

3 to be admitted into evidence. And if you now say we rely only on a

4 portion of it, I do understand that at this moment, in relation to this

5 witness, you rely only on this portion of the tape.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But if you're seeking the whole of the tape to be

8 admitted into evidence, then, of course, the Prosecution relies on this

9 tape in its entirety as well otherwise. But I take it that at later

10 stages, you will refer to other portions and put questions to witnesses

11 in relation to other portions of that video. Is that right?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. There was a mistake in

13 submitting the entire tape with the 92 ter motion.

14 JUDGE ORIE: So then, what you are telling me now is that part of

15 that compilation should be excluded.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Exactly, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And only this portion, I do understand, remains as

18 an attachment to the 92 ter statement of this witness.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is correct, Mr. President. Otherwise,

20 there would be duplicity since we have already tendered the footage of

21 destruction in Kistanje under a separate 65 ter number and also the

22 interview with the accused --

23 JUDGE ORIE: So you withdraw the compilation video in it's

24 entirety, and it's replaced by separate portions. We've seen one of

25 Kistanje and we'll now see one of Grubori. That's the only thing and the

Page 1064

1 remainder is out. We don't have to bother about the video in it's

2 entirety.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. That is only with regard

4 to this video, and not the previous video that I referred to. The

5 previous video of Kistanje -- there are two videos tendered with the 92

6 ter submission.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So we had two videos. One was already limited to

8 Kistanje. That doesn't change in any way.

9 Now, what we are seeing now was part of a compilation; but as the

10 remainder, anything else apart from the portion we'll see now, you'll

11 remove that and what remains is the Grubori video.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is correct, Mr. President. I'm sorry for

13 that confusion.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, better avoided.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we have the video.

16 [Videotape played]

17 "We visited the Plavno Valley yesterday, to meet with a group of

18 residents in one town there. We observed that across the valley another

19 town was apparently on fire. There was a huge plume of smoke and so we

20 visited that town in the afternoon, and we found that, in fact, almost

21 every structure in this hillside village was in flames."

22 "The villagers said they had been called away to a meeting in a

23 nearby village. That meeting never took place."

24 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We waited at the school and no one

25 came. When we looked up here, we saw that everything was on fire. We

Page 1065

1 rushed back. There is no one here now. There is no sign of those who

2 stayed behind. Whether they burned or ran away, we don't know."

3 "My husband is missing. He may have been burned. Granny is

4 missing. She may have been burned. She is very old and couldn't run

5 away."

6 "When the fire finally died down, Dusanka and her neighbour were

7 able to search the houses and were able to search the houses. Later, she

8 showed the UN human rights team where they have found their husbands."

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Here, let me show you. That one

10 was not here. Her husband was ill. He was lying in bed over there.

11 When we came, we found him dead. That's all I can tell you."

12 "He couldn't hear. He was deaf."

13 "Look, you see, he's been shot. Shot in the head."

14 "They were wailing and grief stricken because in the interim

15 they found two dead bodies, people who had been killed evidently earlier

16 that day. One person had been shot through the head. Another person,

17 both of them were elderly men, had his throat slashed."

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We were looking for our husbands

19 everywhere. I found my husband near the cows. The cows were dead, and

20 granny was not there. She was burned in the house. She was ill and she

21 was burned in her bed. This one here, she wasn't here either. When she

22 came, she found her husband dead in the house."

23 "These Croatian police vehicles were parked one kilometre away,

24 and a local military governor admitted police troops had carried out the

25 military operation in the same village of Grubor."

Page 1066


2 Q. Mr. Flynn, was that an accurate record of what you observed in

3 Grubori on the 25th of August.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, right at the end, there were a line of vehicles parked. Did

6 you know that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In your statement of 1998, and I'm referring to P20, that is your

9 previous statement.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At page 28, in line -- lines 2 to 8, you referred to -- you

12 referred to "noticing a long line of parked police vehicles unattended

13 which was parked along the side of the road, and we drove past the police

14 vehicles."

15 Do you, in fact, recall that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now were those vehicles that we saw in the footage here?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, you refer to police vehicles. How did you figure out, how

20 did you conclude that they were police vehicles?

21 A. Well, they weren't standard military vehicles. They weren't

22 green coloured armoured cars or jeeps. They were almost all of the same

23 type of vehicle, either blue or white. There might have been a grey one

24 or two. So they were clearly government vehicles. They weren't civilian

25 vehicles, and there wasn't a marking on them. But it was really by

Page 1067

1 process of elimination, if you will, that we concluded, and I concluded,

2 that they were police vehicles.

3 Q. Now, you state in -- in your 1998 statement in those --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me, Ms. Mahindaratne. The witness tells us

5 that "by elimination," what did you eliminate exactly which led you to

6 this conclusion?

7 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, they were not military vehicles.

8 They did not seem to be connected to any sort of military operation, at

9 least by their appearance. They were not civilian vehicles, as I say.

10 They were not -- I mean, they were not privately-owned vehicles. Those

11 would have been readily identifiable, a lot older, and of different

12 makes.

13 These were vehicles that, as I say, were practically uniform in

14 their appearance, apart from the colour varying between blue and white.

15 But they were unmarked vehicles, at least with respect to the side of the

16 vehicles, as I recall, and I don't think that the licence plates either

17 gave an indication that they were police vehicles.

18 So there was no explicit indication that they were police

19 vehicles, but that was a conclusion that we made.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I proceed?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


23 THE WITNESS: Could I just add one more thing, Your Honour,

24 please. Just that it was also striking that these vehicles were parked

25 really in the middle of nowhere. They were along the side of the road.

Page 1068

1 There was no residence nearby. There was no building. There was no

2 office. There was just empty land. So we assumed that there must have

3 been some connection to some sort of security force or other, and likely

4 police.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It still puzzles me a bit, but, of course, I do

6 understand that you would not expect them to be of a hunting party or

7 something like that at that moment. But, of course, there are a lot of

8 explanations possible. If you see a lot of vehicles in the middle of

9 nowhere, you also could say that it is an indication that there are not

10 police vehicles because you would expect police vehicles near to a police

11 office. It's just the way you reason, you're reasoning.

12 I'm trying to test a bit of your -- on what exactly your

13 conclusion is based. You say they were not privately owned, but you also

14 told us that from the licence plates, you couldn't see that they were

15 police vehicles. You could also, when reasoning, you could say, since

16 the licence plates did not give any indication they were police vehicles,

17 my conclusion is that they were privately owned. I mean I'm just trying

18 to find out exactly what the basis for your conclusion is.

19 THE WITNESS: Well, Your Honour, we also were aware, and I was

20 aware, that they weren't standard police vehicles, if you will. I mean,

21 I was familiar with the kind of police vehicles that typically operated

22 in other parts of Croatia at that time, which, among others things, if

23 they were patrol vehicles would have the flashing light on the top. But

24 these were blue and white. I mean, they clearly belonged together.

25 I should say it may be that others in our group also suggested

Page 1069

1 that they were police vehicles.

2 JUDGE ORIE: As an argument for reasoning, that's not very

3 strong, because if others were to have suggested that they were civilian

4 vehicles, you would have accepted that as well, isn't it? I mean, you

5 say suggestions within the group?

6 THE WITNESS: Well, no, Your Honour, because, as I say, I know

7 what civilian vehicles would look like or vehicles used for agricultural

8 activities. These were brand new, or relatively new, which was rare in

9 that very impoverished area. As I say, they very clearly belonged

10 together, so whoever had driven them belonged in a group; and, as I say,

11 they weren't military vehicles of a traditional type and colour, let's

12 say.

13 But the vehicles did not say on the side that they were police

14 vehicles, so there was a certain amount of deduction involved.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you look into the vehicles?


17 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't have a glance and note children's toys in

18 the back seats or anything else? I'm just trying to find out how

19 thorough your observations were which led you to believe that these were

20 police vehicles.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, throughout that operation, Your Honour, we

22 were fairly cautious about the extent to which we examined some matters

23 up close. I mean for example, we rarely interviewed Croatian military

24 personnel we saw, because it was a highly-charged situation and it was

25 still -- there was still an element of risk involved. We didn't stop and

Page 1070

1 look into the vehicles, I think just because we felt that it was wiser to

2 observe them, to film them, and to move on.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Perhaps, Ms. Mahindaratne, at the very

4 end, we could have a look at these vehicles on the video, not necessarily

5 immediately now, but just to digest the information we just received.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

7 Q. Mr. Flynn, on that point, could you describe the Grubori area?

8 Where was the hamlet of Grubori located in?

9 A. It is in an area called the Plavno Valley which is accessible

10 mainly by a single road branching off the main road going north out of

11 Knin. It's fairly remote. The villages are very small. They are more

12 appropriately called hamlets, I would say. It's an agricultural area.

13 There is not a lot of development. I mean, there's -- most of the area

14 is open, and I think it was used for agricultural purposes. But

15 generally it's quite remote.

16 Q. And what type of a road was that through which you had to access

17 Grubori? Was it a sort of a main roadway where you might see generally a

18 few vehicles travelling through during the day, or is it a small, remote

19 route?

20 A. No. It was a very simple bumpy dirt road, very small. I think

21 two vehicles would have difficulty passing on that road.

22 Q. And, generally, would you expect to see traffic on that road?

23 A. Absolutely not. Maybe a handful of vehicles. Probably many days

24 go by when there is no traffic or there was no traffic on that road.

25 Q. And do the residents in the Plavno Valley generally go about by

Page 1071

1 vehicles or what? Can you give some sense to the Trial Chamber as to

2 what you meant by "remote"?

3 A. I doubt they had vehicles, for the most part, apart from

4 agricultural vehicles, but I'm really not too sure about that. But this

5 was a very simple hamlet, and it was really just a very small farming

6 community.

7 Q. Now, on page 28 of your 1998 statement, P20, your previous

8 statement, page 28 from lines 2 to 8, you also mention that you took down

9 the -- you noted the licence plate numbers of those vehicles.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you do with that information? Did you submit it to the

12 Croatian authorities, the Croatian police, or did you send it to an

13 international entity?

14 A. Yes. We kept that in our file, and I forwarded that information

15 to our headquarters in Zagreb. So it was -- I mean, it came into the

16 possession of my main office in Zagreb.

17 Q. Are you aware that that information has been taken to a logical

18 conclusion in terms of identification of those licence plate numbers as

19 belonging to particular vehicles? Are you aware that that has happened?

20 A. Well, I believe the information was then, regarding the licence

21 plate numbers, was taken by the Special Rapporteur of the UN commission

22 on human rights, Mrs. Elisabeth Rehn; and I believe it was then forwarded

23 to the Croatian authorities with a request for further information.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, do we know anything about the

Page 1072

1 information received or will that come at a later stage?

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, that evidence will be led

3 later on. The licence plates have been identified.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.


6 Q. Now, Mr. Flynn, you took photographs in Grubori of the deceased

7 person you saw initially, and you stated so in your statement, and the

8 burning structures.

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for photograph 4790, please.

11 Q. Do you generally travel about with a camera, or did you happen to

12 have a camera on that day?

13 A. I didn't usually travel with a camera during those weeks, but I

14 did happen to have a camera that day.

15 Q. Was there someone on your patrol who generally carried a camera

16 around?

17 A. Alun Roberts often had a camera. He had a UN issued camera in

18 connection with his information duties, I believe.

19 Q. Mr. Flynn, can you please identify the photograph on your screen?

20 A. This is the man who had been shot and whose body we saw on the

21 late afternoon of the 25th of August.

22 Q. And where was this body?

23 A. It was in his bedroom on the second floor of a house in Grubori.

24 Q. Do you note a bullet casing on his lap?

25 A. Yes. There is one bullet casing there, and we saw one more

Page 1073

1 bullet casing on the floor that evening.

2 Q. So, in total, how many bullet casings did you see in the bedroom

3 of this deceased person?

4 A. Two.

5 Q. Did you take photographs of the burning structures in Grubori --

6 I'm sorry. You just said so.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May have document -- photograph 4783, please.

8 Q. Are you in a position to say as to approximately how many

9 structures were on fire in Grubori when you arrived?

10 A. That would be a little difficult at this point, but I would

11 estimate about ten or 12.

12 Q. Can you identify the document -- the photograph on the screen

13 right now?

14 A. Yeah, this is one of the burning buildings in Grubori that we saw

15 that evening.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we bring up photograph number 4784,

17 please.

18 Mr. President, may I just submit all these photographs together,

19 or would you prefer if I admitted them one by one.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne. Are these part of the 25

21 documents?

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then they're not. Then, yes, I'm a bit confused.

24 Whenever you introduce any document which is not covered by your list of

25 25, you should indicate, so that we can ask Mr. Registrar to assign a

Page 1074

1 number to it. I think it could be a series of photographs. How many are

2 there in total?

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There are altogether seven photographs,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Seven photographs. I think we can have them under

6 one number. Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be number P22.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President, eight

9 photographs.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Eight photographs which are P22.

11 Mr. Registrar has although received the 65 ter numbers of them?

12 I suggest to the parties, and also to you, that if you come with

13 a larger number of exhibits, that you have them all listed. I don't know

14 whether these are all listed in such a way that Mr. Registrar can easily

15 assign numbers to them and easily identify which exhibit is which.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. In fact, we have notified

17 the --

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from the registry if there are any

19 problems in digesting the material presented.

20 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. The registry received a

21 list of 29 documents to be used with this witness, but there is no

22 indication that there are eight videos [sic] to be tendered as a single

23 exhibit, nor is there an indication of 25 documents to be tendered as

24 attachments to the 92 ter statement.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We will all slowly learn.

Page 1075

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We will, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the videos, I take it you're

3 referring to photos.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, I apologise.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Will you permit me to -- may I call the 65 ter

7 numbers, so that to facilitate Mr. Registrar.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you introduce a number photograph out of

9 these eight, please mention the 65 ter number, which will enable the

10 registrar to get the right photos under the right number.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

12 The first photograph which was called of the man, the body of the

13 deceased was 65 ter number 4790. Thereafter, photograph number 4783 was

14 called up, a burning structure. Now what we have on screen is 4784.

15 Can we call up 4785, please.

16 Q. Mr. Flynn, do you recognise that photograph on the screen?

17 A. Yes. That's another building in Grubori that was burning.

18 Q. Did you take that photograph?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we call up number 4786, please.

21 Q. Do you recognise that photograph, Mr. Flynn?

22 A. Yes, that's another building in Grubori, and I took that

23 photograph as well. That building is also burning.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up 4787, please.

25 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?

Page 1076

1 A. Yes, that's another photograph I took. That's a fire that we saw

2 just as we were arriving. I was still seated in the front passenger seat

3 of our car as we were driving into Grubori.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up 4788, please.

5 THE WITNESS: I also took that photograph, and that is a haystack

6 that was burning at the same time.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And the last photograph. May I call up 4789,

8 please.

9 THE WITNESS: And I took that photograph also at the same time,

10 and that's a photo of several pigs who had been shot -- which had been

11 shot.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I take it that all eight

13 photographs will go under P22?


15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Flynn, in your statement of 1998, if I could draw your

17 attention to page 26, that's the first statement, lines 14 to 20, as well

18 as if you also refer to your statement of 2008, paragraph 23, you state

19 that you personally informed an official at Mr. Cermak's office of the

20 Grubori incident on 25th August itself at 1630 hours. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, you described the person you conveyed this information to as

23 Mr. Cermak's chief deputy, in your statement of 1998.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How did you know that the person was Mr. Cermak's chief deputy?

Page 1077

1 A. This gentleman was with General Cermak in most of the meetings

2 with the General in which I participated. He was a person of significant

3 rank. I think he may have been a Major. I can't recall, and I am not

4 entirely sure of his name. But he spoke with some authority. He spoke

5 directly to the General in the course of our meetings. He seemed to be

6 someone in whom the General had confidence, and I assume that he was a

7 person of significant rank, let's say.

8 Q. And what was the information you conveyed to him?

9 A. I told him of the burning that we had seen in Grubori a couple of

10 hours previously. We actually drove directly to Knin after our first

11 visit in the Plavno Valley because we thought it was important to notify

12 General Cermak immediately of what we saw. We believed that the vehicles

13 there might have had some relevance to the burning in Grubori, and we

14 thought that this could be a good opportunity for the General and his --

15 those he worked with to investigate an ongoing scene, which appeared to

16 us to be a crime scene of some kind.

17 We had been notifying the Croatian authorities through General

18 Cermak of a number of incidents of burning and of dead bodies we found

19 and other things throughout the area. And in this case, we thought that,

20 as I say, this was essentially an ongoing incident of destruction or one

21 at least that had very recently taken place, so we thought it was

22 important to notify General Cermak immediately. As I say, General Cermak

23 was not available that afternoon, but his deputy was.

24 Q. Now, in your statement, and I'm referring to the 1998 statement,

25 P20, at page 28, line 29 to 32, you refer to Mr. Cermak informing the

Page 1078

1 Human Rights Action Teams that the incident had occurred in the course of

2 combat activity.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When did he make that statement?

5 A. I'm not sure I can recall the exact date. It was probably -- it

6 was probably three or four days after the Grubori incident. That's after

7 the 25th, so it was probably around the 28th or the 30th of August, I

8 think.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 4029, please,

10 on the screen.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that among the 25?

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I will inform if I'm

13 going outside the 92 ter.


15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could focus on page 2, paragraph 5,

16 which goes on to page 3 towards the bottom of the page.

17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm --

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. I'm referring to the registrar.

19 If you could, if you want to, peruse the hard copies, it's at tab 1. I'm

20 referring to the Human Rights Action Team report of 8th August.



23 Q. There is a report there of Mr. Cermak visiting the compound?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you present when Mr. Cermak addressed the displaced persons

Page 1079

1 as reported in the Human Rights Action Team report there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It is reported there that Mr. Cermak promised the displaced

4 persons alternative accommodation if their homes were uninhabitable and

5 also promised funds for renovation. Is that correct? Did you hear

6 Mr. Cermak making that statement?

7 A. Yes. Well, I heard it through an interpreter, of course.

8 Q. What did you understand to be the basis for that --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

10 MR. MISETIC: I apologise. I don't have -- I don't have 5 on my

11 screen.

12 JUDGE ORIE: On the screen, we find B/C/S paragraph 5, but

13 English up to and including paragraph 4.

14 MR. KAY: It's paragraph 4 is the relevant.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I apologise, Mr. President. I mentioned

16 paragraph 5, I mentioned it in terms of not the numerical numbers that's

17 given because there are several paragraphs.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You were talking in terms of sequence of paragraphs

19 on that picture.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's correct. To make it clear, I'm

21 referring to the last paragraph on page 2 going on to page 3 which refers

22 to the discussion.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.


25 Q. And what was -- as you understood, what was the basis for that

Page 1080

1 undertaking given by Mr. Cermak there. Why was it necessary at this

2 stage, 8th August, 1995, for Mr. Cermak to promise the displaced persons

3 alternative accommodation if their houses were uninhabitable or funds for

4 renovation?

5 A. Well, a large number of people had come to the UN compound at

6 that point as a result of the recent fighting. Already at that point,

7 there had been a number of structures in the area of Knin that I was

8 aware of that were destroyed or were uninhabitable. People were fearful

9 of leaving the compound, I think because they generally felt that their

10 security on the outside was at risk, and some of them did not have --

11 they couldn't return to their homes because they had been partly or

12 totally destroyed.

13 So General Cermak spoke in a very assertive and authoritative

14 manner and emphasised to the displaced persons there that they could

15 return, and I remember the scene very well, that displaced persons were

16 very keen to hear everything that General Cermak said because he clearly

17 in charge. He spoke with great authority, and what I have record the in

18 this report is the message he wished to give to the DPs, the displaced

19 persons.

20 Q. And in the first paragraph on page 3 of the same report, there is

21 a reference to Mr. Cermak "promising to provide a list of all those

22 killed in the fighting and burial sites, as well as a list of those now

23 detained as prisoners of war at a local school." Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. To whom did he give that assurance, to the displaced persons or

Page 1081

1 the UN personnel?

2 A. That was also part of his statement to the displaced persons, and

3 I wrote this report and I made an effort to include what I thought were

4 the main points in General Cermak's statement to the displaced persons

5 and this was one of them.

6 Q. While we are on that document, if you could go back to page 1.

7 In paragraph 3, I'm going by sequence there, it's reported that: "The

8 Croatians say they have recovered, identified, and buried 61 bodies in

9 and around Knin. Civilian/military status of the deceased is unclear."

10 Now, in your statement of 2008, I'm referring to P21 here, at

11 paragraph 6, you stated that you believe that that was mentioned at the

12 same meeting where Mr. Cermak attended.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, who made that statement that 61 bodies had been we covered

15 and that civilian/military status of the deceased is unclear? Was that

16 Mr. Cermak?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in that same paragraph, there is a sentence, within quotes,

19 to the effect, "We have gone to great effort to avoid mass graves." Who

20 said that, was it Mr. Cermak or someone else?

21 A. I believe it was General Cermak, but it may not have been. It

22 may have been one of the other individuals with him. I'm afraid I'm

23 really not 100 per cent sure about that.

24 Q. Was it stated in that meeting with the displaced persons and

25 where you attended?

Page 1082

1 A. No. That information was communicated separately to the United

2 Nations.

3 Q. I'm referring to the statement where it says, "We have gone to

4 great effort to avoid mass graves," within quotes, and you referred

5 earlier to the contents of that paragraph having been said in the meeting

6 with Mr. Cermak.

7 A. Yes. But I'm not sure that information was provided to the

8 displaced persons. I think that may have been stated to the UN in a

9 separate meeting with General Cermak and his colleagues.

10 Q. And are you referring to a meeting conducted, held on the 8th

11 August, the same day in the -- within the compound, or completely a

12 separate meeting?

13 A. No. It was on the same day in the compound. General Cermak, as

14 I recall, spoke to the displaced persons after meeting with General

15 Forand of the UN base there and others.

16 Q. And were you present at that meeting on the 8th August, 1995?

17 You refer to it in your 2008 statement at paragraph 6.

18 A. You understand I have some difficulty recalling everything from

19 those days, at least with great specificity. Yes. I was present at that

20 meeting. I was present at quite a number of meetings with General Cermak

21 during that time.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 3248, please.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, meanwhile, I'd like to invite you

24 to find a suitable moment within the next five minutes to have a break.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This could be a good moment, Mr. President,

Page 1083

1 because I'm going on to a number of documents from now on.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have the break right now. We'll have a

3 break until five minutes to 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, before I invite you to proceed,

7 could you tell us how much time you thought you would need,

8 approximately.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I'll take about in our one and

10 a half hours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: One and a half, so I think that three hours was your

12 original --

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- and you're at the right speed at this moment.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I expect you to finish the examination-in-chief

17 at the next break.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, since you indicated you'd like

21 to see the footage of the vehicles during the break, we cued it up to

22 that point. Perhaps we could start with that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: This takes only a couple of seconds, I take it.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could play it.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 1084

1 "These Croatian police vehicles were part of one ... of the military

2 operation"

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could just pause there.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I see that there's at least something blue on the

5 roof of this vehicle.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Also, to point out, there

7 is some kind of a mark, some insignia on the side of the vehicle.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps you could ask the witness why he said

9 there was no marking on it, and what this is.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 Q. Mr. Flynn, do you note the marking on the side of the vehicle

12 there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It's been a long time. I don't know whether you recall seeing

15 that. Do you have any recollection whatsoever now as to any aspect that

16 led to markings on the vehicles?

17 A. Yes. I just didn't recall that a couple of these vehicles did

18 have a marking on the side. So I wasn't able to tell the Court exactly

19 how we reached the conclusion that they were police vehicles, but

20 certainly this would be a key factor.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you. Mr. President, may I move on? Do

22 you still wish to see the footage any longer, or may I move on?

23 JUDGE ORIE: No. It was just to have a renewed view on the cars.

24 Yes. Please proceed.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for the document 3248 for the

Page 1085

1 record. This is the Human Rights Action Team report 9th August.

2 Q. Mr. Flynn, if you refer prefer to look at the hard copy, it's at

3 tab 2 of your binder there.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If you could focus on page 2, the paragraph which is numbered 5.

6 If you could go on to page 2 --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- paragraph numbered 5. That is at the bottom of the page 2,

9 yes.

10 There is a reference to General Forand requesting the presence of

11 representatives of the Centre for Human Rights and UNHCR at a meeting

12 with Mr. Cermak.

13 Now, were you requested by General Forand to attend this meeting

14 on 9th August?

15 A. Yes, I was.

16 Q. Were you present at the discussion which was reported in

17 paragraph numbered 5 going through page 3 of the document?

18 A. Yes. You mean, when the General was addressing the displaced

19 persons? I'm sorry. The meeting immediately after --

20 Q. After with General Forand, and then going on to --

21 A. Yes, I was. I was present.

22 Q. Was there anything else discussed in this meeting, do you recall?

23 If you don't recall, that is all right.

24 A. Yeah, I really don't recall.

25 Q. Now, if you go on to the same document, if you move back to

Page 1086

1 page 2, in paragraph 4, there is a reference that is by the paragraph

2 numbered 4. There is a reference to "the military governor General

3 Cermak reportedly intends to expand the scope of freedom of movement

4 effective 10th August, possibly in the direction of Benkovac."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know, in fact, in that context whether international

7 monitors were allowed to travel to Benkovac after this date?

8 A. Well, not immediately after that date. I don't think we were

9 able to visit Benkovac until the 13th of August.

10 Q. Now, did it seem to you that Mr. Cermak, in fact, did have the

11 authority to control the movement of international monitors in the area,

12 either by relaxing restrictions or by imposing restrictions?

13 A. Well, I'm not exactly sure of General Cermak's actual authority,

14 but certainly he was the person we looked to, to inform us where we could

15 and could not go. Whatever he indicated to us as areas we could visit,

16 then we assumed that those areas could be visited.

17 Q. Now, were there instances when, in fact, Mr. Cermak informed the

18 Human Rights Action Teams and the international monitors that

19 restrictions had been relaxed and when you went, in fact, to the field,

20 you found that those conditions were, in fact, implemented?

21 A. Yes. Almost without exception, what General Cermak told us was

22 or was not possible in terms of movement proved to be the case.

23 Q. What was the mechanism that was used to restrict the movement of

24 international monitors in the area? How was it restricted?

25 A. Well, I don't have a lot of experience with that because we did

Page 1087

1 not have any wish to test the limits of our authority to travel in areas

2 where General Cermak told us there was no freedom of movement, but there

3 were a number of Croatian military checkpoints in the area. There was a

4 major checkpoint at the Otric crossing which, at times, prevented us from

5 travelling up the road to Donje Lapac. There were also some other

6 sporadic incidents in which people who seemed less disciplined, let' say,

7 than those at the fixed checkpoint at Otric denied UN observers certain

8 access to areas.

9 But there was a time, for example, when the Plavno Valley was

10 closed to us. This was a few days after the Grubori incident. There

11 was, in fact, a checkpoint that was established on that single road I

12 mentioned before that went into the Plavno Valley. I'm trying to recall

13 if there was a military or a police checkpoint. I'm not 100 per cent

14 sure, but it was certainly an official checkpoint.

15 Q. Now, generally, who manned these checkpoints, the military, the

16 civilian police, or were they mixed checkpoints?

17 A. The checkpoint at Otric was a military checkpoint. There were

18 other military checkpoints in Sector South. In the weeks after my

19 arrival, the Croatian police started to set up checkpoints in different

20 locations. So there was somewhat more of a police presence, although I

21 wouldn't say a very widespread police presence.

22 Q. Could you give a sense of how exactly it operated when, for

23 instance, Mr. Cermak informed you or the other international bodies that

24 restrictions to movement was relaxed and you went out into the field.

25 Was it the case that you could go through those military checkpoints, and

Page 1088

1 prior to that, you would be stopped at these military checkpoints? I'm

2 trying to get it out as to how exactly the restrictions were implemented

3 on the ground.

4 A. Well, with respect to Benkovac, for example, well, on my first

5 trip out to Benkovac, we were able to go to Benkovac, and that was on the

6 13th of August. Before that time, movement was stopped, and I can't

7 speak personally as to how it was stopped. I'm quite sure it was

8 military checkpoints at that point, because this was in the early days

9 following the military offensive.

10 Q. Have you -- sorry.

11 A. Nothing more.

12 Q. Have you personally seen checkpoints?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who manned those checkpoints?

15 A. Croatian military personnel; and after a few weeks, there was

16 some Croatian police checkpoints.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 2322, please.

18 For the record, that's Human Rights Action Team report 10th August.

19 Q. Mr. Flynn, if you want to look at the hard copy, it's at tab 3.

20 Now, there at page 2, the last paragraph, there is a reference to

21 a meeting with Mr. Cermak and General Forand and company. Were you

22 present at that meeting?

23 A. Can I review my statement?

24 Q. Yes. You have, in fact, referred to it in your 2008 statement at

25 paragraph 8; however, you don't refer to this particular meeting in your

Page 1089

1 statement.

2 A. Right. I'm not sure if I was present at that meeting; although,

3 on that day, I know that I was at the compound. I wasn't going on a

4 patrol, so I probably was at that meeting.

5 Q. Now, in this document, if you could go back to page 1, in

6 paragraph 4, and I'm referring to the sequence of paragraphs, there is a

7 reference to "safe passage cards." It says "persons at the school ..."

8 Did you note that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If you could focus on paragraph 4 on the screen, please. Can you

11 please tell the Court as to how these safe passage cards operated?

12 A. Well, these were documents which allowed individuals to move

13 freely around the area, with the exception, I'm sure, of some areas that

14 might have been blocked off, as I mentioned, with respect to freedom of

15 movement. But in the early days, after Operation Storm, the "propusnica"

16 was the document which, for example, was given to persons inside the

17 compound, Sector South headquarters, which allowed them to move about the

18 area outside.

19 Q. If you turn to page 4, the attachment, the last paragraph of that

20 document, is that a safe passage card? I think it's not on that tab.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: But if you could bring it up on the screen.

22 Q. It's on the screen, Mr. Flynn.

23 A. Yes, that's the "propusnica."

24 Q. Under whose authorities were these issued?

25 A. Under General Cermak's; that's his name on the document.

Page 1090

1 Q. And where were these -- the holders of these cards supposed to

2 produce them at in order to be able to move about?

3 A. I believe they were to produce them to any military or police

4 authority who stopped them.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Moving on. Can you call up document 4065 on

6 the screen, please.

7 Q. Mr. Flynn, if you want to look at hard copies, it's tab 5, Human

8 Rights Action Team report of 12th August 1995. There on page 1, under

9 the subject "Security situation," it refers to a meeting, if you could

10 focus on the paragraph just under "Security situation."

11 It refers to a meeting between Mr. Cermak and General Forand?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, in your statement of 2008, at paragraph 10, you state that

14 you attended that meeting.

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. Were you present throughout that meeting?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who else was present?

19 A. The head of political and humanitarian affairs, Mr. Al-Alfi was

20 there; and I say members of HRAT, but actually I'm really not sure who

21 was there. I just know that I was there; and General Forand, of course;

22 General Cermak and colleagues of General Cermak. I'm sure he wasn't

23 alone at that meeting.

24 Q. Where was it held?

25 A. That meeting may have been held at his headquarters. I think it

Page 1091

1 was held at his headquarters.

2 Q. Now, does that report in the Human Rights Action Team report of

3 12th August, is that an accurate report of what was discussed at the

4 meeting?

5 A. Yes, absolutely.

6 Q. There is a reference there to Mr. Cermak being inquired of -- in

7 the next paragraph, it says, "The general responded to an inquiry for

8 information concerning the rash of fires throughout the area by insisting

9 that the phenomenon had no official sanction and that action is being

10 taken by the authorities to stop it."

11 Now, who inquired Mr. Cermak of these rashes of fire in the area?

12 A. I'm quite sure it was General Forand. In these meetings, it was

13 normally the general who spoke for the United Nations. General Forand

14 was quite concerned about the human rights situation in the area. He was

15 also concerned about the fires, and I know that I had discussed with him

16 this phenomenon of the fires. So I'm virtually certain that General

17 Forand raised the issue with General Cermak.

18 Q. Did Mr. Cermak indicate as to what actions were being taken to

19 stop the fires?

20 A. No, I don't believe so. I think the response was rather vague,

21 but the general did acknowledge that there was a rash of fires in the

22 area.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Moving on to document number 4086, Human

24 Rights Action Team report of 15th August.

25 Q. Mr. Flynn, that's at tab 9 of your binder.

Page 1092

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, there in page 1 -- I'm sorry, page 2, the paragraph just --

3 paragraph numbered 4, under freedom of movement, it is reported that "by

4 order dated 15th August, General Cermak has lifted the necessity for

5 the," I beg your pardon for my pronunciation, "propusnica," safe passage

6 cards, "and directed all checkpoints in Knin to allow the unhindered

7 passage of civilians."

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The document on the screen doesn't show --

9 yes. It's page 2. Next page, please. Page 3 on the -- if you could go

10 down, I'm referring to the paragraph just under freedom of movement.

11 Q. Now, how did you acquire that information that Mr. Cermak had

12 ordered the lifting the necessity for the safe passage cards?

13 A. Well, I think at the UN, at that time, that sort of information

14 would have been communicated very rapidly. I'm not sure if I saw a

15 written order, but an order like that from a general would impact all of

16 our work. So I must have learned from persons involved with the UN, but

17 I can't tell you exactly how I learned of that order.

18 Q. But was it implemented? Did you see that decision being

19 implemented on the ground?

20 A. It was definitely implemented on the ground, yeah.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Moving on to document number 3084. That is

22 the Human Rights Action Team report of 29th August.

23 Q. That's at tab 19 [Realtime transcript read in error "tab 9"] of

24 your binder, Mr. Flynn.

25 There in page 1, if you could focus on the last paragraph, it's

Page 1093

1 reported that "General Cermak informed Human Rights Action Team that a

2 report will be provided to them on 30 August regarding the events which

3 occurred in Grubori on 26th August."

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "The Croatian authorities have taken the line that the town was a

6 Chetnik stronghold; and that of the dead, unfortunately two were

7 civilians who died in the crossfire. It is claimed that the Croatian

8 authorities have provided humanitarian assistance to citizens remaining

9 in the area."

10 Now, that information, the rest of the paragraph which says the

11 Croatian authorities have taken the position that Grubori was a Chetnik

12 stronghold, so on and so forth, was that conveyed at the meeting when

13 General Cermak informed the Human Rights Action Team that a report would

14 be submitted with regard to the Grubori incident?

15 A. Yes, I believe it was.

16 Q. And were you present when Mr. Cermak made that statement?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was it at a formal meeting, or how -- where was it conveyed?

19 A. I believe it was in General Cermak's headquarters. General

20 Cermak was fairly open to meeting with us if he was in the area, and

21 meetings didn't always have to be scheduled in advance. So if the Human

22 Rights Action Team requested a meeting with the General, it was sometimes

23 possible to arrange it on very short notice.

24 Q. Now, did he indicate at this time, or did you get the sense, that

25 he was stating that the matter was being investigated, the Grubori

Page 1094

1 incident was being investigated at this stage?

2 A. Yes, definitely.

3 Q. Are you aware, as of this date, on the 30th of -- this report

4 relates 29th August, on 29th August that the Grubori incident was, in

5 fact, being investigated?

6 A. I'm not aware that it was. I was certainly struck about ten days

7 later when I went to Grubori myself and went to the same residence of the

8 dead man whose picture was shown earlier, where there were two bullet

9 casings in the room, and there was still a bullet casing on the floor of

10 that room some ten days to two weeks after the incident. So I personally

11 doubt that a serious investigation took place, at least until that time.

12 Now, maybe in the time afterwards, there was an investigation,

13 I'm not 100 per cent sure about that.

14 Q. Now, you referred to seeing those bullet casings you saw on the

15 25th of August again ten days after Mr. Cermak made that statement. Was

16 that reported in one of your Human Rights Action Team reports?

17 A. Yes, it was.

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 4235 on the

19 screen, please.

20 Q. That's at tab 26 of your binder, Mr. Flynn.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's a Human Rights Action Team report for 8th to 11th

23 August [sic].

24 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to the previous document, the

25 transcript, I take it by mistake, refers to "tab 9," where that should be

Page 1095

1 "19." We are now then moving to 26.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could have the

3 document 4235 on the screen, and if you could move to the next page.

4 Q. In paragraph 3, there is a report of the fact that the two

5 bullets -- bullet casings were observed still on the blood-soaked floor

6 of the man's bedroom on this particular patrol which was taken during

7 8th to 11th August [sic]; is that correct?

8 A. September.

9 Q. September, I beg your pardon.

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you. I'm sorry. May I just go back to

12 the document we were looking at earlier on, which is 3084. I beg your

13 pardon for --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 19, yes.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Tab 19, yes. There, in that report, if you go

16 to page 2, in the paragraph numbered 5. We're still on the previous

17 document on the screen. Can we go back to document 3084, and page 2 of

18 that.

19 Q. There is a reference there to again a discussion with Mr. Cermak,

20 and there it is reported that "the General stated he is giving an order

21 to that effect to Knin chief of police, Mr. Romanic, that is in reference

22 calling for police reinforcements." Is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you at this meeting? Was it the same meeting reported in

25 the previous page?

Page 1096

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, did you hear Mr. Cermak say that he would give an order to

3 the Knin chief of police calling for reinforcement? Did you use him use

4 the term "order"?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we have document 951 on the screen,

7 please.

8 Q. That is tab 21 on your binder, Mr. Flynn.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, it's Human Rights Action Team

10 report of 2nd to 4th September. If you move on to page - I beg your

11 pardon, Mr. President - page 2, paragraph 3.

12 Q. It is actually the second paragraph under the subheading "Reports

13 of human rights violations and related issues."

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon. It's paragraph 4.

16 Q. There is a reference to the observation of burning houses and

17 seeing two uniformed soldiers of the 4th Guards Brigade lounging next to

18 the burning house.

19 A. This is on the first page of the report itself?

20 Q. This is actually page 2. The first page is a cover page.

21 A. Okay. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: We have the page numbers in the exhibit. That's the

23 second page, but it's the first page. At least it reads page 1 of the

24 Human Rights Action Team Knin daily report, 2nd to the 4th of September.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 1097

1 Q. Do you note that paragraph which refers to the burning of houses

2 and seeing two soldiers belonging to the 4th Guards Brigade lounging next

3 to the burning houses?

4 A. Yes. I wrote here the "4th Split Brigade." Yeah, I remember

5 that. I was present. I saw that.

6 Q. How did you identify the unit the soldiers belonged to?

7 A. You know, at that time, I may have become familiar with the

8 different markings of soldiers from different units, but I may have also

9 relied on one of my colleagues to help me about that information.

10 Q. Now, you described this incident in detail in your 1998

11 statement, and I'm talking about your first statement, at page 33. If

12 you could go to that.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We need paragraph

14 reference because there is various pagination in various language

15 versions.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In the English version at page 33, line 23

17 going into page 34, I'm afraid there are no --

18 JUDGE ORIE: There are no paragraphs. It's just an ongoing

19 story, but the lines certainly in the different languages might not

20 correspond.

21 I haven't got a translation in front of me. I always prefer to

22 have at least one translation, also if it's B/C/S, for the Bench, so that

23 we can assist in getting to the right spot.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I could provide one right now, Mr. President,

25 if you wish.

Page 1098

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if you first would help the interpreters.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. If I could have a minute.

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you take often, it's difficult to find numbers or

4 specific capitalis ed text. Is there anything you could find or a

5 specific name?

6 It is close to where the words "Cvijanovici" appears, if that

7 helps the interpreters. It is a paragraph which starts also concerning

8 the incident concerning the Cvijanovici hamlet. It's the first line of

9 the paragraph.

10 I'm just waiting for a signal that the interpreters have found

11 the spot you would like to deal with. In English, it is page 33.

12 Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could get the B/C/S copy for me.

13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have found it in the statement

14 from 1997.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, we have an indication that the

16 interpreters have found it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed and provide the usher with a B/C/S

18 copy.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. Now, at page 33, lines 23 onwards, you refer to this incident of

21 seeing the Croatian soldiers of 4th Split Brigade, as you refer to them,

22 lounging next to the burning structures. And going on to page 34, you

23 state that this incident was reported to someone in General Cermak's

24 office, and I'm referring to page 34, line 4.

25 Who reported that matter to Mr. Cermak's office?

Page 1099

1 MR. KAY: Well, it says, "but I believe," not that it was a fact.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, Mr. Kay points at the text which

3 says, "I'm not sure exactly who we reported it to that day, but I believe

4 that we advised ..."

5 Whereas, in your question, you did put it as a fact, rather than

6 something the witness "believed."

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President. I will explore that

8 further.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please.


11 Q. Mr. Flynn, now, you say that you believe that "we advised someone

12 in the office of military headquarters in Knin, someone in General

13 Cermak's office related to that incident."

14 Now, what was the basis for that statement? How did you know or

15 what led you to believe that someone in Mr. Cermak's office was informed

16 of this incident?

17 A. I believe I reported it to someone in his office. As I said

18 before, General Cermak's office was fairly available to us, in the sense

19 that we felt that if there was an urgent need, we could go to his office,

20 perhaps meet with the General himself, but if not, meet with one of his

21 colleagues. And after seeing an event or an incident such as we saw in

22 the Plavno Valley, I'm quite sure that we took advantage of that

23 accessibility of General Cermak and his team to report it immediately to

24 them, as we had done a couple of weeks earlier in the case of the Grubori

25 incident.

Page 1100

1 Q. I assume that it was a practice on the part of your team to

2 inform Mr. Cermak's office when you observed this type of incidents?

3 MR. KAY: Can we not have assumption? Can the witness give the

4 evidence, his own evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, what you assume is not to be put

6 to the witness.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President, I will rephrase.

8 Q. Can you clarify the term as to why you say you believed? What

9 was the basis?

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think that question has been put to the witness.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President, I will withdraw

12 that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one question.

14 You told us that you would go to the office of Mr. Cermak and

15 then either see him or inform people in his office about events. Did it

16 ever appear to you that information which was not directly relayed to

17 Mr. Cermak, that, at a later stage, you experienced that he was unaware

18 of the information you left in his office, although not directly with

19 him?

20 THE WITNESS: No. It never appeared to me that that was the

21 case, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. May I call for

24 document 4207, please. That's a Human Rights Action Team report of 7th

25 September.

Page 1101

1 Q. Mr. Flynn, that's in tab 24 of your binder.

2 On page 1 of that document, paragraph 4, there is a reference to

3 Mr. Cermak saying that what was going on was a shame on Croatia, and he's

4 reported to have said "enough is enough." He has further informed the

5 group of persons he was addressing that the group of persons had been

6 arrested in connection with criminal activity in the sector and the names

7 and locations were unknown.

8 He goes on to say that "HINA," that is referring to a media

9 press, "reported on 6 September that Cermak had a dozen HV soldiers,

10 suspected of having broken the law, have been arrested, and that civilian

11 and military police would set up controls to put up a stop to unlawful

12 acts."

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's "set up" where it reads "step up." Please

14 proceed.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Now, from where did you obtain that information?

17 A. The information regarding General Cermak's reported change of

18 view?

19 Q. I'm referring to particularly - initially, I'm referring to

20 Mr. Cermak - when he says that the situation was "a shame on Croatia and

21 that enough was enough."

22 A. Right. That information was reported to me by UN colleagues who

23 met with General Cermak that day, including Mr. Al-Alfi, the head of

24 political and humanitarian affairs.

25 Q. Do you know if that information was discussed or if Mr. Cermak

Page 1102

1 made that statement at a meeting with Mr. Al-Alfi or was it said

2 somewhere else and Mr. Al-Alfi informed you of this?

3 A. No. It was made with a meeting with Mr. Al-Alfi and other UN

4 officials, and Mr. Al-Alfi also included it in a report that he made of

5 that meeting.

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In relation to that, if I may call up

7 document 1581.

8 Q. That is in your tab, Mr. Flynn, at tab 25.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, it's a weekly report dated

10 8th September, 1995.

11 Q. Is that the report you just referred to as Mr. Al-Alfi having

12 reported these details of this meeting?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If we could move on to page 3 of that document

15 on the screen.

16 Q. There, in paragraph 3, starting with, "During the meeting," it

17 goes on to say, "We raised with General Cermak the question of continuing

18 looting and burning of houses in the area. We further raised specific

19 cases of recent murders which were brought to his attention and asked for

20 the results of the investigation by the Croatian authorities. General

21 Cermak did not deny the continuation of such activities, and said that

22 strict orders have been issued to arrest those who commit such crimes.

23 "He also informed us that they have already one group in custody

24 who will be put before trial. He informed us that, in a recent interview

25 on Croatian television, he dealt with these activities and regarded them

Page 1103

1 as 'a shame on Croatia.'

2 "General Cermak agreed to give his instructions for more joint

3 patrolling between UN CIVPOL and the Croatian police particularly in the

4 remote villages."

5 Is that the report that you have reported in your daily report?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, this report that is document number 1581, the weekly report,

8 was author the by whom?

9 A. Mr. Al-Alfi.

10 Q. What was Mr. Al-Alfi's designation?

11 A. He was the political and humanitarian affairs coordinator for

12 Sector South.

13 Q. I take you back to your 1998 statement. In page 22, at lines 17

14 to 19, you refer to Mr. Cermak making a public statement, essentially

15 expressing his concern about the burning and looting that was taking

16 place at that time.

17 What were you referring to at this stage?

18 A. Exactly that statement that he made to UN officials in that

19 meeting we just referred to, and to his reference to a media interview

20 that he had given.

21 Q. And on that same page, at lines 22 to 26, you go on to say that

22 "Mr. Cermak expressed his view that there were understandable strong

23 feelings and strong emotions among Croats and Croatian citizens about

24 events that had taken place during the war, including in 1991." You say

25 this was stated by Mr. Cermak on a couple of occasions.

Page 1104

1 Now, do you recall these occasions when Mr. Cermak said this?

2 A. Well, I know he said that in the interview with UN television

3 that related to the Grubori incident, which I had already seen by the

4 time I gave this statement. He may have said that in meetings with me.

5 I'm just not 100 per cent sure that he did, and I can't remember at this

6 point. But I know he made that statement, as I say, to the UN -- to UN

7 TV.

8 Q. I'm referring to actually his statement about the understandable

9 strong emotions among Croats, and I'm not referring to the statement that

10 he made, where he said that the situation was a shame on Croatia. Do you

11 recall when that was made? Was it made to you at any point of time?

12 A. It may have been. I just can't recall that specifically. I just

13 can't sit here and say that. As I say, my vivid recollection of that is

14 from this interview that the General gave to UN TV; and in that

15 interview, he referred to the feelings of Croatian people.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 289, please.

17 That is the Human Rights Action Team report for 12th to 13th September,

18 and that's at tab 27. I believe we are still on the previous document on

19 the screen.

20 Q. While the document is being brought up, Mr. Flynn, if I could

21 draw your attention to your 2008 statement, paragraph 35. You refer to

22 the Human Rights Action Team report of 12th to 13th September, which is

23 now on the screen.

24 On page 2, paragraph 2, there is a report on a meeting between

25 Mr. Cermak and members of the UN.

Page 1105

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In your statement of 2008 at paragraph 35, you say that you were

3 present on 12th September at the meeting with General Cermak when he said

4 that he could not deny that there was serious lawlessness in the sector.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the Human Rights Action Team report, it is reported as this,

7 if I could read it: "In a meeting," --

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: This is at page 2, if we could move on to

9 page 2, and if you could focus on paragraph 2 of that page.

10 Q. It's reported: "In a meeting with the DPHAC and the Centre for

11 Human Rights, on 12th September, military governor General Cermak said he

12 cannot deny that there is serious lawlessness in the sector, and he said

13 he has requested civilian and military police reinforcements from Zagreb

14 who he hopes will arrive by the end of the week. He asked that he be

15 notified immediately if lawlessness is observed, so that he can dispatch

16 police to investigate and arrest the perpetrators if possible."

17 Were you there when he made that entire statement?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where was that meeting held?

20 A. That was in his offices.

21 Q. Who else was present?

22 A. Well, the DPHAC would be, I believe, Mr. Zhang. He was the

23 deputy coordinator for political and humanitarian affairs. I was the

24 only representative for the Centre of Human Rights at that time. So I

25 have no doubt that I was present and I remember the meeting.

Page 1106

1 I'm not sure exactly who else was there from the UN side or from

2 the Croatian side.

3 Q. Now, what led Mr. Cermak to say that there was no denying that

4 there is serious lawlessness in the sector? What did the participants

5 convey to Mr. Cermak which led to him make that statement?

6 A. We conveyed to the General our continuing concern about

7 lawlessness in the sector. Even in the two or three days prior to that

8 meeting, there had been a number of killings, more burning houses had

9 been observed, there was a high level of looting takes place, and we took

10 that opportunity to report this to General Cermak and his colleagues.

11 Q. When Mr. Cermak requested you and the others, it is reported

12 there, that he requested you to inform him if there were any incidents

13 observed, so that he could dispatch police investigators to investigate

14 the crime, did it seem to you that Mr. Cermak, in fact, was just merely

15 saying it to appease you and the international monitors present there,

16 sort of to get away from the situation?

17 MR. KAY: Well, if ever there was a leading question, I think

18 that is.

19 JUDGE ORIE: It certainly is one. Please rephrase.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. President. I will

21 rephrase.

22 Q. What were your impressions when Mr. Cermak made that statement?

23 A. Well, I thought it was a rather remarkable statement to make at

24 that late date. We had notified General Cermak and his office already of

25 a number of incidents of violence and burning and killing, and had

Page 1107

1 requested increased security and police investigations. I think I have

2 to be frank, at the end of that paragraph, I express a certain amount of

3 frustration with the last sentence which you didn't read, and which I

4 add, if I may, Your Honour, a comment, "All the authorities need to do is

5 patrol on their own, and they will find ample persons to investigate and

6 arrest."

7 I thought that was a rather disingenuous assurance for the

8 general to give us at that late stage.

9 Q. Now, that comment that is noted there, is that your addition, you

10 noting something, your own impressions in the report?

11 A. Yes. I wrote this report and, obviously, this last statement is

12 not, if you will, a report of a factual incident, it's an editorial

13 comment. But I considered it implausible for the general to ask us to

14 notify him of incidents of lawlessness, when, in our travels around the

15 region, it was very easy to see, as I say, burning buildings and acts of

16 looting, and we also investigated at that time a number of killings.

17 Q. In that same paragraph, it is reported that Mr. Cermak asked --

18 I'm sorry, that he had requested civilian and military police

19 reinforcements from Zagreb. Now, did he indicate as to from whom he had

20 requested police reinforcement, both civilian police and military police

21 reinforcements? Did he elaborate?

22 A. I don't believe so. And speaking for myself, I didn't usually

23 press General Cermak on the question of who he was in contact with in

24 Zagreb. From my point of view, my concern was the local security

25 situation and providing due notice to the General. But I don't recall

Page 1108

1 that we got into the question of who he may have notified in Zagreb.

2 Q. Taking you back to your statement of 1998. If I could take you

3 to page 9, lines 21 to 28. Lines 21 to 28, you state as follows: "He

4 indicated in his discussions with us, it seemed to me, that he had the

5 authority to tell military units still active in the area what to do or

6 what not to do."

7 A. I'm sorry. What page is that?

8 Q. Page 9. I'm referring to your first statement.

9 A. Okay.

10 Q. Page 9, and if you trace --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- line 21, the portion I'm reading starts from line 22.

13 Referring to General Cermak, you say: "He indicated in his discussions

14 with us, it seemed to me, that he had the authority to tell military

15 units still active in the area what to do or what not to do."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, what was it -- what did Mr. Cermak say that led you to

18 believe or conclude that Mr. Cermak had the authority to tell the

19 military units active in the area what to do or what not to do?

20 A. Well, General Cermak spoke with great authority about these

21 issues. He didn't say that he would refer matters to others who could

22 take action. We went with him and conveyed concerns, and his response

23 was that he would take the necessary action. He was, indeed, as far as I

24 know, the military governor of the region, and he spoke as if he had the

25 authority to control both military and police and civilian matters in the

Page 1109

1 region.

2 On the other hand, I don't believe that -- or, at that time, I

3 had no impression that General Cermak was, let's say, operationally

4 giving orders to the military, if you will. I mean, he was in Knin, he

5 was dealing with police matters, he was dealing with civilian matters.

6 He was dealing with safe passage, and he was speaking with displaced

7 persons. I think he had a fairly broad area of responsibility. But I

8 can't speak very authoritatively with regard to General Cermak's actual

9 authority. I can only speak with respect to what he indicated to us and

10 seemed to indicate on what I believed.

11 Q. While we are on that same page, Mr. Flynn, that is page 9 of your

12 1998 statement, if you go to line 9, you say that you recall, "Mr. Cermak

13 arrived in Knin a day or two after I did." Now, is that correct?

14 A. No, that isn't correct. This is a factual error that I noted in

15 this statement long after I gave it; but, apparently, when I gave this

16 statement, I had this recollection. I think this statement is incorrect.

17 Q. Could you -- do you recall when you met Mr. Cermak for the first

18 time?

19 A. Well, the first time was on the 8th of August and I had arrived

20 on the 7th of August, but I think there were -- there was also a meeting

21 that took place between UN officials and the general on the 7th. I'm

22 just -- I really don't recall.

23 Q. If I could take you back to document number 2131, which is on

24 tab -- I'm sorry. I beg your pardon. It's document number 4029, tab 1.

25 That is the Human Rights Action Team report of 8th August.

Page 1110

1 In paragraph 6 on the same page, on page 1 - and when I say

2 paragraph 6, it's the paragraph just under "security situation" - there

3 is a reference, in fact, to a meeting with Mr. Cermak in Knin on

4 7th August; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is that what you're referring to?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up document number 2403, and that

9 is Human Rights Action Team report for 17th August 1995.

10 Q. Mr. Flynn it's at tab 12 of your binder.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Then if you could move on to page 2 -- I'm

12 sorry. It should be page 3 because I'm going by the number on the page,

13 the next page. That's correct.

14 Q. In paragraph 2, there is a reference to an interview with

15 displaced persons at the UN headquarters. It reports on the interview of

16 three persons who arrived at the UN camp, and reported on a killing of

17 four RSK soldiers and civilians travelling in a tractor by members of

18 the HV.

19 A. Yes, I remember that.

20 Q. Did you interview those displaced persons, the refugees who

21 arrived at the camp?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I'm about to call a document

24 which contains information relating to a protected witness. Can we move

25 into private session.

Page 1111

1 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session, and the document

2 should not be shown to the public.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1112











11 Pages 1112-1117 redacted. Private session.















Page 1118

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne. It's unnecessary to tell you

11 that, of this one and a half hours, approximately seven and a half

12 minutes are left.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I'm just about to tender

14 my last document which is a map which is outside the 92 ter submission.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That map is number 65 ter ...


17 JUDGE ORIE: It will be assigned exhibit number ...

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit P24, marked

19 for identification.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If it can be brought up on the screen, please,

22 and if you could bring up the map on the screen.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It takes some time, Ms. Mahindaratne.


25 Q. Mr. Flynn, on Sunday, 6th April, you -- did you examine a map

Page 1119

1 which indicated the locations that you referred to in your reports and

2 your statements?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you satisfied, with the exceptions of a few, a couple of

5 markings, which we will refer to in court now, that the markings properly

6 indicated the locations you referred to?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the map contains a legend which names all the locations and

9 gives a number which relates to the markings on the map?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you a couple of corrections that you needed to make on this

12 map?

13 A. Yes, there were.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Electronically loading maps takes quite a while,

15 Ms. Mahindaratne.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, to save time while that's being

17 uploaded, there were a couple of corrections which are not matters of

18 matters in dispute. May I just lead the witness on those?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that leading might not be a major

20 problem, but, of course, it depends what kind of corrections you are

21 seeking.

22 But the map is loaded, so please proceed.


24 Q. Now, in the legend at number 8, if you could focus on the legend,

25 at number 8, there is a reference to Rubeje or Rudele. What is the

Page 1120

1 correct name?

2 A. That would be Rudele.

3 Q. R-u-d-e-l-e?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, at number 11, on the legend, is the place called Cenici.

6 While Cenici is marked with number 11 --

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If we could move down, if we could move down.

8 For the record, Mr. President, Cenici is marked with number 11;

9 however, the location is not marked on the map. And since that has not

10 been indicated on the legend, I wanted to have that place on record.

11 If you could move to the right.

12 Q. Mr. Flynn, can you see number 11 there? Number 11 is just below

13 Knin.

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could stop there. Yes, that's enough.

16 Q. Is that the correct location for Cenici?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. But the name is not indicated on this map, simply because this

19 is -- because of the scale.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In the legend at number 15, if we could go

21 back to the legend at number 15. If you could move back, left and up.

22 We should go outside the map area to the legend.

23 Q. Number 15 and 16, Bakarja and Otocac are mentioned, but those

24 places are not within this map area; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1121

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In fact, for the record, Mr. President, there

2 is no number 15 and 16 on the map?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Is it mentioned on the legend.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is on the legend but it is a mistake.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I have to look at the legend more precisely. First

6 of all, the first digit disappears, so I can't check what actually is

7 there. You see it starts with 0, 1; but whether that's 10, 11, I've got

8 no idea.

9 May I take it that it starts with 10.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, I think it starts with 1.

11 JUDGE ORIE: From 1 to 29, I find approximately, well, some 16 or

12 17; so, therefore, it looks to me as under, if it's 7 -- oh, now we have

13 it better.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: There you are. I'm referring to number 15.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Bakarja.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's not found, and although it is in the

17 legend, there is it is not there. And number 16, Otocac, is outside this

18 map area, so there is no marking there either.


20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: At 21 there is a place referred to as

21 Borovici; however, inadvertently that marking has been left out of the

22 map.

23 Q. Could you, Mr. Flynn, mark the location, and if you could take

24 the cursor.

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The map could be moved to the right, to the

Page 1122

1 extreme right and down. Yes. If you could keep it around there.

2 Q. Mr. Flynn, are you able to indicate where Borovici is, at least

3 the area if you could indicate with your --

4 A. Right. It's north of Knin not too far, but I don't see Knin on

5 this.

6 Q. Knin is just below.

7 A. Right. So I think it's a little south of Zelembaba, number 19.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could we at least zoom in.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Now you can see Knin.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom in a bit from 19, so that we can read

11 what's on the map? Yes.


13 Q. If you could indicate roughly where Borovici is.

14 A. Yes, I would say it's about -- how to put it. Do you see where

15 it says Grubici? I think it's a little bit south of Grubici.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could the witness have a marker, please, so

17 that --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, I take it that you want to tender

19 this map.


21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if we do the markings on the map, what will

22 remain is the portion of the map zoomed in at, so I take it you want

23 first to tender the map as a whole.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Then now we need a new exhibit number for that

Page 1123

1 portion of the map, which will be marked by the witness, which will be a

2 separate exhibit, I take it. Because if you store it as it is zoomed in

3 now, you will lose the remainder of the map as an exhibit. So we have

4 done two exhibits: One is the map in its totality marked, although

5 incomplete, by the witness, and then this specific portion of the map

6 marked by the witness.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, in that case, in order to avoid

8 that much of complications, I would just ask the witness to indicate

9 where Borovici is and put it on record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's perhaps, then, very practical.

11 We have at this moment, in front of us, markings 18 and 19, and a

12 little bit further down is apparently the city of Knin.

13 Could you tell us where we find Borovici.

14 THE WITNESS: I think it's just a little bit below where you see

15 Grubici, where one can see Grubici there.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Grubici is just south of the marking with the number

17 19. Is that what you're referring to?


19 JUDGE ORIE: Just a little bit south of that, you said.


21 JUDGE ORIE: That is, if I could give an estimate, approximately

22 the distance from Knin to the place marked number 19, then approximately

23 80 per cent from Knin, 20 per cent?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's my recollection, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

Page 1124

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we go back to the legend, please.

2 Q. At number 37, there is a reference to, if you could focus on 37,

3 on the legend, there is a reference to Krezevic. Is it Krezevic or is it

4 Knezevic? That is K-n-e-z-e-v-i-c?

5 A. It's Knezevic with an N.

6 Q. And, similarly, at 43, there is a reference to Zagorac. Is it

7 Zagorac or Zagrovic?

8 A. It's Zagrovic.

9 Q. That's Z-a-g-r-o-v-i-c?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And, finally, could you just point out where Kakanj is.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If you could take the map down. And just to

13 assist you, it's below Kistanje, so to the right. Go down and to the

14 right. Yes. If you could stop there and go down further. Yes. If you

15 could stop around there.

16 Q. Can you just point out where Kakanj is? It is just below

17 number 10, Djeverske, a little to the right?

18 A. Yes, I see it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: The witness doesn't have to do it any more, because

20 you have done it already, haven't you, Ms. Mahindaratne? It's very

21 practical. I wonder whether this kind of exercise could not have been

22 done outside of court, getting the right spelling where it's apparently

23 doesn't affect. The remaining issue between the parties could have been

24 put to the witness, but this is really -- it's very useful that you're

25 doing it because I always insist on precision. At the same time, there

Page 1125

1 are ways in doing it without spending court time on it.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I agree, Mr. President. I apologise. It's

3 just that this came up with such short notice. We did not time to do it;

4 it was only recent.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. These are words of encouragement to the

6 parties, to see what minor matters they can settle out of court. But you

7 have indicated and you have given the answer for the witness. That's

8 accepted as it seems. So any further questions.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. Could the map be tendered

10 into evidence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against the map tendered into

12 evidence? Then the map is admitted into evidence.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes the examination in chief,

14 Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll have a break. We'll

16 resume at five minutes to 1.00; and after the break, Mr. Flynn, you will

17 be cross-examined by Defence counsel.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to the defence counsel

21 to cross-examine the witness, I would first like to give an opportunity

22 to Judge Gwaunza to seek some clarification.

23 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, just two short questions. Referring to the

24 video that we saw with those vehicles parked by the side of the road, did

25 you ever get to know, for instance, why those vehicles were there and

Page 1126

1 perhaps what eventually happened to them?

2 THE WITNESS: The only thing I heard, Your Honour, was the

3 reference made in the following days to a special police operation to

4 clean up so-called -- to clean up hold-out RSK fighters who were still in

5 the hills. So I don't recall that the link was made between those

6 vehicles and that operation, but it may have been suggested that they

7 were connected to that activity, because the authorities did suggest to

8 us that there was a military operation against hold-out RSK fighters in

9 the area. But other than that, well that's all the information I have.

10 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Okay. Thank you.

11 The other question relates to what you said one of the things you

12 said General Cermak said concerning arrests, arrests made of people who

13 had committed crimes, members of the militia. Did you get to know or

14 confirm that such arrests did actually take place?

15 THE WITNESS: I personally did not, Your Honour. I think some

16 other UN colleagues may have, but I personally don't know of any arrests

17 that were made.

18 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I also have one or two questions. You told us that

20 the explanation given in respect of the Grubori incidents was that it was

21 a stronghold and it was fire fighting, Grubori to be a stronghold, or in

22 this case, strong hold, and keeping out the fighters from that place and

23 then that people might have been caught in crossfire.

24 First of all, that explanation, especially the last portion,

25 crossfire, did that fit into your own observations or the information you

Page 1127

1 obtained on that event?

2 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I considered it to be implausible

3 in the first place, because the first body we saw was found in a room

4 where bullet casings were evidence.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

6 THE WITNESS: And also the large number of houses which were on

7 fire. I mean, I believe that there might have been some fire caused by a

8 military encounter, but it seemed implausible that all of those fires

9 would have resulted from a military encounter.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, when this explanation was given to you, did you

11 put to - I think it was Mr. Cermak who gave that explanation - did you

12 put to him that this explanation did not fit into what you observed or

13 what your team had observed?

14 THE WITNESS: You know, I can't recall specifically. We may

15 have, or I may have, referred to those bullets in that room, but I didn't

16 make it a practice to engage in a debate with General Cermak. I always

17 sought his views on relevant matter, but I didn't engage in a debate with

18 him.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You wouldn't contradict, if you didn't

20 consider it plausible.

21 THE WITNESS: Right.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

23 What will be the sequence of cross-examination?

24 Mr. Kay, you're on your feet. It seems that you are the first

25 one to cross-examine the witness?

Page 1128

1 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour. The parties have agreed that I'll go

2 first.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may interrupt for a

5 minute. During the break, there was a discussion between Mr. Gotovina's

6 Defence team and us.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I am informed, and the rumours go quickly, usually,

8 is that it has not yet resulted in any agreement. Different versions?

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. We have agreed that the

10 document could be marked for identification.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think there were two issues. The first was

12 whether this statement should be admitted at this moment, and the second

13 is whether there are different versions of that document, isn't it?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. With regard to the second

15 issue, it has been resolved.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. There's one version, and that's the version

17 we've seen on our screen?


19 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the one uploaded in e-court.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: With regard to the first issue, that is

21 document P23 --


23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: -- the interview notes.


25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And we do agree that, for the time being, it

Page 1129

1 can be marked for identification.

2 JUDGE ORIE: That's usually the first step, and then the Chamber

3 will decide on whether it will be admitted --

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ORIE: -- because you tendered it. And if you say now that

6 you withdraw tendering it, and ask it to keep the status of marked for

7 identification, then the Chamber will have to consider whether the

8 Chamber accepts that, whether the Chamber calls upon the Prosecution to

9 have that document in evidence and then admitted.

10 Mr. Misetic.

11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I may. I think the agreement was

12 reached to -- with respect to the Trial Chamber, the agreement was

13 reached to mark it for identification at this moment and not have the

14 Prosecution tender it at this moment, because we wish to continue to

15 discuss trying to resolve it amongst ourselves. There are some other

16 issues in addition to the issues that were raised in front of the Trial

17 Chamber.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I leave it for a while. But the mere fact that

19 once a document is tendered and if it's withdrawn, that the agreement

20 between the parties is not the final word and whether it will be in

21 evidence, yes or no, because the Chamber, of course, has the competence

22 to seek introduction into evidence of a document, especially if it has

23 been used in court.

24 MR. MISETIC: Certainly, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But we'll leave it then, for the time being, as you

Page 1130

1 agreed, and the Chamber would like to hear from you within three days, by

2 the end of this week.

3 MR. MISETIC: That would be fine, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear from you by the end of this

5 week.

6 Then Mr. Kay.

7 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Flynn, you will now be cross-examined by Defence

9 counsel for Mr. Cermak, Mr. Kay.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

11 Q. Mr. Flynn, just taking up on the last questions that Judge Orie

12 was asking you, from your evidence, it seems that you were turning to

13 Mr. Cermak for help in relation to the problems that you had in your role

14 of being linked to the UN.

15 A. No. I wasn't turning to him for help. I was turning to him as

16 the responsible local authority who I believe had responsibility to take

17 action in the event that unlawful activity was determined to be taking

18 place or to have taken place. We turned to General Cermak for help on a

19 number of operational matters, of course, regarding our movement. But

20 our position was that it was the responsibility of the local authorities

21 to conduct investigations into these acts, so I saw my role as one of

22 notifying the local authority about events.

23 Q. Your words earlier was you weren't sure of his actual

24 responsibility, and you said that in your evidence earlier today when the

25 issue of the passes were being discussed: "I'm not sure of" General

Page 1131

1 Cermak's "actual authority." I've inserted "General Cermak" there, but

2 you were not sure of his actual authority.

3 A. I wouldn't presume to say what arrangements existed within the

4 Croatian military structure with regard to authority for that region. I

5 could only operate on the basis of my own understanding of that

6 structure, and I certainly understood that General Cermak had authority

7 across a range of issues and I approached him on that basis. I was

8 simply stating that I have no inside information with regard to how

9 things operated, once information was transmitted to him.

10 Q. That's the point I'm dealing with, that you were using him to

11 transfer information beyond him, but elsewhere within the Croatian

12 authorities.

13 A. Well, I think I left that to his judgement based on his own

14 responsibility. I operated on the basis that General Cermak himself had

15 authority to obtain certain actions from military authorities, military

16 personnel, police personnel in the region, and I operated on that basis.

17 I'm just saying that I am personally not 100 per cent sure what authority

18 he did have.

19 Q. We'll look at that. But it seems from the terms of your answer,

20 then, that you were making an assumption. You didn't actually know,

21 because you weren't a party to that information.

22 A. That's correct. Someone else within the UN may have been. I was

23 not.

24 Q. Yes. So the terms of your evidence, when you discuss his

25 responsibility and give your beliefs, are based upon assumptions that you

Page 1132

1 have made.

2 A. Well, not only assumptions. General Cermak was introduced to me

3 and to my colleagues as the military governor responsible for Sector

4 South. And from the very first encounter I had with him, I based all of

5 my interaction with him on that basis.

6 So it wasn't an assumption drawn out of thin air. It was based

7 on his own presentation of himself and that of other authorities,

8 including local authorities who would say to us, "We can't address that

9 matter. You'll have to talk to General Cermak." That, for example, was

10 a statement that the chief of police made to us.

11 Q. I'm just letting the translation move on, on a long answer.

12 A. Sure.

13 Q. Looking at what you said just then, you said that he was

14 introduced to you and to your colleagues as the military governor

15 responsible for Sector South. I just want to examine that because Sector

16 South was a term for a very large region, and it was a region that was

17 identified by the UN.

18 A. Yes. I would actually like to clarify that, if I may. General

19 Cermak was introduced as the official responsible for an area which

20 roughly coincided with Sector South, but he certainly had no direct link

21 to responsibility for Sector South as such.

22 Q. You agree that Sector South, which is the purpose of my question,

23 was a UN designated area and not a Croatian Republic designated area?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So that geographical assumption appears to have come into your

Page 1133

1 statement about how he was introduced to you.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Let's turn to the next aspect of that sentence, military

4 governor. General Cermak was described to you as being a military

5 governor, not by himself, but by others within the UN.

6 A. Is that a question?

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you actually consider or research or look at what his actual

10 appointment was, what his actual function was?

11 A. For my purposes, the important thing to know was that any issues

12 of concern to the UN, generally, could be brought at least to General

13 Cermak. He was the individual that I understood we could go to who had

14 the authority to take action with regard to all matters, including

15 operational matters, freedom of movement, concerns about security,

16 concerns about the continuing presence in the zone of particular military

17 units and other matters.

18 Q. I don't like interrupting witnesses, and you've given an answer,

19 but I did ask a very specific question. It was whether you'd looked up

20 or researched or considered what his actual authority was and what his

21 position was?

22 A. I certainly considered it. I did not look it up in the time that

23 I had prior to even knowing that General Cermak had that responsibility.

24 Q. We'll be looking at that later on in my questioning. The first

25 part of your sentence, that he was a person to whom you could address

Page 1134

1 issues of concern and could be brought to his attention, is something I

2 don't agree with. It's the second sentence about his actual authority

3 which you've agreed was based upon a belief of yours.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Your role in the Human Rights Action Team arose out

6 of a new concept; is that right? This was not a previously-structured

7 organisation or team prior to August the 4th of 1995?

8 A. No. A form of it had been implemented in the investigations

9 related to the Srebrenica massacre in July of 1995. In that

10 investigation as well, my office cooperated with other UN entities in

11 investigating events, interviewing witnesses, and that sort of thing.

12 But I would say that, with respect to sort of becoming a formal mechanism

13 that was used to investigate events, it really first came into full play

14 during -- after Operation Storm.

15 Q. You'd agree it was a new team?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I want to look at a document which arises from the 6th of August,

18 1995, which you'll probably be familiar with. It's the so-called

19 agreement between Mr. Akashi and Mr. Saranac, the UN and the Croatian

20 government in relation to a post-Operation Storm relationship between the

21 Croatian state and the UN. You're familiar with that document, I

22 presume?

23 A. Yes. And, actually, at the time we referred to it fairly

24 regularly, but I don't recall the contents of it.

25 MR. KAY: Can we look at it because it's an important feature of

Page 1135

1 this case, if Your Honours will forgive me from saying that.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, I take it.

3 MR. KAY: It's 65 ter 1979.

4 Q. While we're waiting for it to come up on the screen, if I just

5 give a brief description of it which you'll probably agree with, and I'm

6 reading from the head heading, it's an agreement between the government

7 of Croatia, UNCRO on temporary measures in the areas formally known as

8 Sector North and Sector South.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I will first ask the registrar to assign a number.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That's D28, marked for identification, Your

11 Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in the interests of having a clean record,

14 so to speak, so we don't have a big backlog of marked for

15 identifications, this will not be a document in dispute between any of

16 the parties, and so I'd ask that it go into evidence now.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection?

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then D28 is admitted into evidence.

20 MR. KAY: With Your Honour's leave, that's a procedure I will try

21 and adopt during my questioning, otherwise we're going to build up a

22 backlog that may be difficult to trace.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You will notice at the end of this session, Mr. Kay,

24 where you are invited to finish approximately seven minutes before the

25 usual time, that I'll try to get rid of a lot of MFIs.

Page 1136

1 Please proceed.

2 MR. KAY: I'm grateful. I'm looking for it on a screen. I don't

3 know if anyone else has it. I don't have it on the monitor here.

4 Q. Have you got it, Mr. Flynn, in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Good. Should we just look at it. It's a document that's

7 concerned with civilians being involved in hostilities, their

8 humanitarian needs, and their human rights and humanitarian law. Isn't

9 that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, forgive me for interrupting,

12 but I've lost the picture from my screen.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To be quite honest, I see on my screen no

14 computer evidence, so, therefore -- now we have it. At least I have it

15 and I see are my colleagues also have it on their screens.

16 Please proceed.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you. The Court will see that I'm reading from

18 the preamble to the numerated paragraphs of the agreement.

19 Q. If we just go through this quickly, Mr. Flynn, you can see --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, one tiny little thing. The text speaks

21 about civilian population affected by the hostilities, but as you said

22 "involved," which might be different. But I see the document now for the

23 first time. "Involved," in my understanding of the English language, is

24 that you take a role here in being affected by it, and that you are not

25 activity involved. I don't know whether that's a wrong understanding.

Page 1137

1 MR. KAY: I was using the word in a slightly different way. I

2 "caught up in."

3 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever I have a problem with the language, I will

4 put it to you, so in order to verify whether I do understand a language

5 which is not my native language correctly.

6 Please proceed.

7 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.

8 Q. We can see in paragraph 1 that Croatia expressed its complete and

9 unequivocal commitment to full respect of human rights.

10 These issues that we're looking at were reasons why HRAT became

11 involved in this particular phase of events, is that right, Mr. Flynn?

12 A. I'm not sure there was a direct link, because there was an

13 agreement between the government of Croatia and UNCRO?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Well, not necessarily. I think we would have continued. We had

16 an independent mandate as human rights officers, but anyway.

17 Q. Very well. At paragraph 2, "Croatia concurs that UNCRO, together

18 with UNHCR and ICRC, where appropriate, will monitor and report on human

19 rights situations in the areas and intervene with the Croatian

20 authorities on human rights matters when appropriate."

21 That's right, that was part of the mandate, and would that would

22 that have been part of the agreement that you were working under?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Although, it doesn't specify HRAT there, this can be applied to

25 the terms of your role in the region?

Page 1138

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Paragraph 3, "Croatia encourages all those previous inhabitants

3 who wish to remain peacefully in the areas over which Croatian authority

4 is exercised. However, Croatia will allow, with full guarantees for

5 security, the departure from those areas of all those who express their

6 desire to do so, except those who committed violations of international

7 criminal law."

8 And, in fact, that was a procedure that was part of your concern,

9 or came across your desk, if I can put it that way, rather than using

10 "concern" in one of a number of ways. But it was something that you were

11 involved in and were aware of about the desire that some people may have

12 to leave the region?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But there was an exception to that, "except those who committed

15 violations of international criminal law."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And, again, that issue of those who had committed war crimes, in

18 effect, who had been living within the Republika Srpska Krajina was a

19 matter that the UN had recognised Croatia had a legitimate interest to

20 deal with?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And Croatia was under an obligation to help UNCRO and other

23 organisations to enable departures in a civili sed way?

24 A. I'm just reaching the end of my screen here, if someone could

25 scroll down, please. Can I scroll down? I'm not sure if I can.

Page 1139

1 Q. I don't know. This is out of my control.

2 A. Can I manipulate this document?

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid you cannot manipulate it; but if you ask

4 to scroll it in a way, then it will be done for you.

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. It's being done.

6 MR. KAY:

7 Q. Can you see that?

8 A. Yes. Just let me read that last sentence. Yes.

9 Q. I'm referring to this document because it forms, in fact, part of

10 the background of your job and what you were looking at, and what was

11 discussed between the UN and General Cermak were elements concerning this

12 agreement between the UN and the government of Croatia. That's right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Paragraph 4, if we can move on the English version, "Full access

15 by UNCRO and humanitarian organisations to the civilian population for

16 providing humanitarian needs, but subject to the extent allowed by

17 objective security consideration." That's right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And, again, that formed part of the background concerning the

20 issues of your freedom of movement and restriction of movement was this

21 issue about security considerations? That's right?

22 A. I'm sorry. Whether that was relevant to our work?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes. I think this paragraph refers more to the provision of

25 humanitarian needs of the population, but equally our movement was

Page 1140

1 subject to objective security considerations.

2 Q. Yes. Paragraph 5, "UNMO's and human rights monitoring elements,"

3 and within that phrase, we would include you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. "Will carry out surveillance immediately in all areas, except

6 where, in the opinion of the local UNCRO military commanders after

7 consulting Croatian army commanders, the security situation does not

8 permit for such surveillance."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Again, this issue of security which is relevant to those issues

11 raised during your evidence concerning restriction of movement and

12 freedom of movement?

13 A. I can accept that, yes.

14 Q. Yeah. Just for the record, you and I know you agree, but if you

15 could use the word "yes."

16 A. Okay.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Flynn.

18 Looking at paragraph 6, "Croatia will ensure that civilian areas

19 are not targeted."

20 Paragraph 7, "if UNCRO commanders are aware of a particular

21 movement of local military personnel, information will be immediately

22 passed to the Croatian army."

23 Paragraph 8, "in conformity with its international obligations,

24 Croatia reiterates the inviolability of United Nations premises and

25 establishments and its vehicles and all those therein," and I'm reading

Page 1141

1 this out fully because it becomes relevant, "and thus commits all

2 Croatian authorities to fully respect such inviolability."

3 That, again, was one of the terms that had been established

4 between the UN and the Croatian government?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. That was concluded on the 6th of August and you

7 arrived in Knin on the 7th?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You arrived with Mr. Akashi?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he was the special representative for the Secretary General?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And his visit to the UNCRO compound on the 7th was part of a

14 large delegation of UN officials who came to see the circumstances of the

15 camp on that day?

16 A. Well not only of the camp, of course, but --

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. -- yes.

19 Q. Camp and Knin and whatever else they could see?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. Particularly, the camp was a focus because of the large numbers

22 of people who'd gone to the camp during the previous days of Operation

23 Storm?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you part of the tour that Mr. Akashi had when he went to the

Page 1142

1 camp?

2 A. Yes, but I did not participate in the meetings he held with

3 Croatian authorities at that time.

4 Q. No.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, may I invite you to find a suitable moment

6 within the next one or two moments to conclude for the day so that we can

7 spend some time on the MFIs.

8 MR. KAY: Absolutely, Your Honour. I will ask one more question.

9 I won't introduce a new exhibit.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

11 MR. KAY:

12 Q. When you were not at the meetings, what were you doing in the

13 camp?

14 A. On that day?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I have difficulty recalling. Of course, it's been almost 13

17 years. But I suppose that I met or spoke with other UN officials about

18 what they had seen in the previous days, I inquired as to the

19 circumstances of the displaced persons, how they came to be inside the

20 camp confines, and also we had to deal with basic matters like

21 accommodation.

22 Q. Yes. And those are all issues which are relevant to the

23 Akashi/Saranac agreement of the 6th of August.

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. KAY: If we stop there. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1143

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Flynn, we have to deal with a few practical

2 matters, but you don't have to stay for that. I'd like to instruct you

3 that you should not speak with anyone, whomever it is, about your

4 testimony, whether already given or whether still to be given, and we'd

5 like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00, in this same courtroom.

6 THE WITNESS: Could I ask the court a question?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

8 THE WITNESS: I'm just wondering if I could have a hard copy of

9 the Akashi/Saranac agreement because I don't actually have it in my

10 papers.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem by any of the parties that the

12 witness looks at it overnight?

13 MR. KAY: No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then the parties, they'll provide you through the

15 Victims and Witness Section with a copy. If it's here at this moment to

16 be given to the witness, we could right away; but if not, the parties are

17 invited to deal with that immediately after the session.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then you are excused. Could you please follow the

20 usher.

21 I see that there is a copy already available. So if Mr. Usher if

22 you would take that from Mr. Kay and give it to Mr. Flynn.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would like to deal with the exhibits. You

25 have received a list; nevertheless, I'll start with two items which are

Page 1144

1 not on the list, that's D13 and D14. These are the comparative videos

2 which have been meanwhile uploaded in e-court, as I understand. The

3 first one mainly about the sirens and breaking of glass, and the second

4 one about what was in the facility of the impact of what appeared to be

5 shell impact. Was it a park area or was it a police station?

6 It has been uploaded. I would first like to ask whether there's

7 any objection against.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't believe there is, but

9 unfortunately that wasn't on my list.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, I do understand. Okay. The Prosecution

11 will tell us not later than by tomorrow.

12 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour, that's no problem.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And then, of course, the whole issue apparently

14 seems to be manipulation of video.

15 Mr. Misetic, anything else on this matter?


17 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to go through the list in five minutes.

18 Then D10, any objection, Mr. Tieger?

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I spoke with Mr. Cayley about that

20 document. I understand that is no longer being tendered by the Cermak

21 Defence.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then D10 will be vacated.

23 D11 is still without a translation, as far as I understand.

24 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it's my understanding now that we have

25 uploaded the proper version, and we seek leave of the Trial Chamber to

Page 1145

1 replace the version that was in e-court yesterday with this new version.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We had an incomplete version yesterday. That has

3 been repaired. Do I understand that the translation is there already.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Have you seen the translation, Mr. Tieger, or would

6 you reserve -- would you need sometime to check whether this letter by

7 Witness 6 is -- you will remember the --

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes. Your Honour, I am hesitant because I don't

9 want to delay the process. But if the Court gives the opportunity to do

10 so, I --

11 JUDGE ORIE: You get one day to make sure your translation issue

12 is off the table. The other matter has been repaired. We would like to

13 hear from you tomorrow, and even you could perhaps in the beginning of

14 the court session say no objection to this, no objection, then I can

15 immediately deal with the matter.

16 MR. TIEGER: I think that will be efficient.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we go on, D D12, any objections.

18 MR. TIEGER: No.

19 JUDGE ORIE: D12 is admitted into evidence.

20 D16, aerial image, any objections.

21 MR. TIEGER: I spoke with Mr. Misetic about this, Your Honour. I

22 think the -- I think, other than the description of the exhibit, which is

23 erroneous --

24 MR. MISETIC: It changes already. It should say Zastava Film not

25 Veritas Film crew.

Page 1146

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then Veritas being replaced by Zastava, any

2 objections.


4 JUDGE ORIE: D16 then with new description is now admitted into

5 evidence.

6 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. I think I should have made that clearer.

7 I thought that we addressed that. It's not just the nature of the crew

8 that was there, but my recollection is that in the course of testimony,

9 the Court pointed out it wasn't -- that what the document indicated was

10 not precisely where they were located, but the angle of which --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, on the document it says where it was

12 located. But on the basis of evidence, I have great difficulty to accept

13 that on what the witness said, that he could confirm that these were the

14 locations. Whether they were or not, I'm not aware of. That's just a

15 claim at this moment.

16 I take it that you accept that these were the directions from

17 which the video was made. Although you do not object admission into

18 evidence for practical purposes, this does not imply that you accept the

19 precise locations as the locations from which it was filmed.

20 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is that correct?

22 MR. MISETIC: That's my understanding, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

24 Then we move on to D17.

25 MR. TIEGER: I looked at the transcript as quickly as I could to

Page 1147

1 try to refresh my own recollection of the tendering and discussion about

2 that document. I understood from the transcript that was withdrawn.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

4 MR. MISETIC: That's not my understanding from the transcript,

5 Your Honour.

6 MR. TIEGER: I think, well, we'll have to look at it again.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please deal with it. D17 we'll hear from tomorrow

8 by both parties.

9 D18.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this is a slightly different problem.

11 Again, the problem is not with the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Mrksic issue.

13 MR. TIEGER: That's one aspect of it. The other aspect is that

14 the descriptions on the document itself were not necessarily confirmed by

15 the witness, and I'm concerned that this gives rise to later confusion

16 where the document is presented, it has a characterisation, the witness

17 doesn't affirm that or does so only in part. Then the exhibit as

18 labelled appears to give rise to different evidence than was provided.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I suggest the following to the parties: It's

20 well understood that descriptions are not always accepted by the other

21 party; nevertheless, these are descriptions that were presented to the

22 witness. But at the same time, I'd like to invite the parties that if

23 you want to point out something, that you make it A or B or whatever, so

24 that the witness then can tell us what it is or say that the lines drawn

25 there are not correctly drawn.

Page 1148

1 MR. TIEGER: If I may, Your Honour.


3 MR. TIEGER: It's been a problem for a few exhibits that we can

4 keep track of and be aware of the distinction between what the witness

5 said and what the document indicates, but over time I think it could

6 become a significant problem when the parties and the court later try to

7 determine what the evidence actually is.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, since the witness was not, I think, asked about

9 the descriptions as such, but was invited to tell what he saw, could it

10 be a practical solution that D17 -- the same would be true I think for

11 D18 -- no, not for D18 - for D17 that a new version will be produced

12 without the text on it because that's the picture of which the witness

13 was invited to look, then it would be now on the record that he looked at

14 a picture including some text, but that we then removed that text in

15 order to avoid confusion for the future.

16 MR. MISETIC: I would be happy to do that, Your Honour. My only

17 concern is my recollection that the witness made three markings on the

18 exhibit. He identified, I believe, the army hall, the RSK headquarters.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What we then could do is try to have a colour copy

20 made of it and then redacted the text, and then to submit the marked copy

21 but then without the text as replacing D17.

22 Would that be agreeable to you.

23 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour, except I think you are,

24 indeed, talking about D18.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think I'm talking about D17 -- no. You're

Page 1149

1 right. It's D18. It's the four black and white pictures showing houses

2 located 20 metres from, and should it be Mrksic headquarters?

3 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. It is RSK headquarters.

4 JUDGE ORIE: RSK headquarters.

5 So then we get a new version of D18, and it's now on the record.

6 It's not exactly anymore what has been shown to the witness, although the

7 picture and the markings are the same.

8 D23, any objections?

9 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: D23 is admitted into evidence.

11 D24 --

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

13 JUDGE ORIE: No. We have a problem there. D24, we have no

14 translations yet, so I should have not admitted it.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. We have no translation as

16 well, but we have assurances that we will be in possession of the

17 original version of the document for the beginning of next week.

18 Therefore, the translation will be much more appropriate because it will

19 be completely legible.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then we leave D23 and D24 on our MFI list.

21 D25.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, my only opportunity to see that was in

23 e-court. It appears the last three pages of the document are still in

24 B/C/S.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Still in B/C/S. So you would like to come back to

Page 1150

1 that.

2 D25 is still MFIed, no position taken yet.

3 D26, any position.

4 MR. TIEGER: Not with respect to D26 and D27, but they should

5 both be under seal.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, D26 and 27, yes, it's already indicated on the

7 list confidential. Admitted into evidence, under seal.

8 P17, any objections? That is the map. Is it uploaded? I do

9 understand it was, meanwhile. No objections. Then P17 is admitted into

10 evidence.

11 P18. That is the full long video showing, as we understand, Knin

12 in those early days of August, but without a transcript and without the

13 voiceover being in evidence just the pictures. Objection? Yes?

14 MR. TIEGER: Yes. And I think that if I understand the agreement

15 correctly, because one of the participants in that process is not here,

16 Mr. Misetic will correct me if I am wrong, but that -- I think that

17 should be admitted along with 65 ter number 3759, which is the -- what

18 has been referred to as the raw footage of the same -- well, the raw

19 footage from which P18 was taken.

20 JUDGE ORIE: The complete raw footage.

21 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

22 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I'm, at this point, not sure now if 65 ter

23 5739 and P18 are one and the same or not. Is P18 the Veritas?

24 MR. TIEGER: That's my understanding and that's why --

25 JUDGE ORIE: In any event, the raw footage. That would then be

Page 1151

1 tendered from the bar table, I take it, because the raw footage was not

2 shown to the witness; and, therefore, we'll then hear, Mr. Tieger, if you

3 would then come back to this issue once we have reviewed.

4 MR. MISETIC: I have no objection to the raw footage coming in,

5 Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then if you indicate to Mr. Registrar what the

7 footage will be, then he'll assign a new number to it, and then we can

8 decide on a mission towards the admission of the raw footage.

9 Therefore, P18, any further objections? That's the redacted or

10 at least the version of the video.

11 Then P18 is admitted into evidence.

12 Perhaps unnecessary to say, but P17, of course, was already

13 indicated on the list as being confidential. So P17 should be under

14 seal.

15 Well, that at least shortens our list a bit.

16 Mr. Mikulicic, unless there is some great urgency, I'm already

17 stealing time from my colleagues who might need this courtroom this

18 afternoon.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: I will take only five seconds.


21 MR. MIKULICIC: I will turn back to the document D23.


23 MR. MIKULICIC: I think I mistakenly stated we have no

24 translation. We have translation for that document but we don't have

25 translation for D24.

Page 1152

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Mr. Tieger, have you had an opportunity

2 already to already look at D23, that's the letter from the Republican

3 Committee Of Education, et cetera.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I thought I indicated no objection to

5 D23, and then the concern about the problem related to the translation

6 for D24.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then D23 is also admitted into evidence. We

8 have shortened our list, although it's not completely gone yet.

9 We'll adjourn. Apologies for the Chamber that use this

10 courtroom, and we request of Mr. Registrar to inform them that we left

11 the courtroom nine minutes late.

12 We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 same courtroom.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

15 April, 2008 at 9.00 a.m.