Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3067

1 Monday, 19 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. I see that all counsel

6 and accused have found a way to this courtroom rather to the courtroom

7 announced.

8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to

10 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

11 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13 Ms. Mahindaratne, there was matter to be raised, I understood.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. It is with regard to two

15 documents which were tendered on Friday by the Defence, document number

16 D192. Now, at the time, Mr. President, I was following the English

17 version on the e-court, and I did not have, unfortunately, time to

18 scrutinize the original document. But after adjournment, when I looked

19 at the original document, it appeared that the document doesn't have a

20 seal. It has no signature. And considering the other military

21 documentation which has been tendered in evidence so far by the Defence,

22 as well as the Prosecution, this document somehow does not seem to

23 conform to the ordinary military documents.

24 So I just wanted to underscore that and point out to you that

25 there is a problem with this document. However, we have not objected to

Page 3068

1 its admission. I don't know whether it is appropriate now to ask Court

2 to have it marked for identification. If that is not possible, I could

3 also demonstrate the discrepancies through the examination, so that Court

4 will give necessary weight at the appropriate stage.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Defence on this matter. It is just about D192?

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.


8 MR. MISETIC: First, I regret that this wasn't raised over the

9 weekend or some point in time to --


11 MR. MISETIC: -- address the matter. To me, from what I can see

12 in the e-court, the third page does not appear to be uploaded. I will,

13 during the break, attempt to upload the third page to satisfy

14 Ms. Mahindaratne.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So, if you find a seal in the signature on the third

16 page, then we'll hear from you.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I'm sorry. I didn't

18 realise there was, because in both versions there was no third page.

19 This is why -- I'm sorry if that is the case.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do the following. A complete document will be

21 uploaded; you look at it; if you have any further questions, you first

22 put them to Mr. Misetic; and if Mr. Misetic does not come up with an

23 answer that satisfies you, you always can raise the matter in -- I mean,

24 whether you draw your attention to it or whether it will be in

25 re-examination or whether you will try to change the status again from

Page 3069

1 admitted into evidence to marked for identification. We'll then see how

2 you proceed.

3 Yes.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, one other point. May I request

5 the Defence to tender D191 in its entirety. That's the personnel record

6 of the witness; and I believe, considering the issues that were raised on

7 Friday, his personnel record in its entirety would be relevant to the

8 Trial Chamber.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

10 MR. MISETIC: If I may have a moment, Your Honour, to have a look

11 at D191.


13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That is the personnel record. At the moment,

14 there is only five pages, just excerpts, tendered in evidence.

15 MR. MISETIC: Again, Your Honour, this was not discussed with me

16 over the weekend, so I need some time to review exactly what the issue

17 is.


19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. It's D190. I beg your pardon. I

20 made a mistake. It's the personnel file of the witness. It's the last

21 document on the list that was send by you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The original is for me, an eight-page document,

23 Ms. Mahindaratne. At least, that is how it appears in e-court. I have

24 to look at the translation.

25 MR. MISETIC: I believe we tendered everything that was in D190,

Page 3070

1 so I'm not sure what the issue is, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you explain, Ms. Mahindaratne, because in the

3 English, I also find an eight-page document.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, since this was -- this is the

5 personnel record of witness's military service, I presume that there are

6 the details of his -- the day he joined, the day he left; whereas, this

7 document only has the disciplinary measures and just this letter sent to

8 the 4th Guards Brigade. So I presume there would be many pages in this

9 document; but if the Defence says that is all there is to it, then I take

10 it that this is the document.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, this is the kind of information you often

12 find in what is, I think, called the military booklet, or something, the

13 document the soldier takes with him all the time wherever he goes. It is

14 always open for you to ask in re-examination, or to ask him to give a

15 full description of all periods of actual service.

16 So I leave it at this moment to you. D192 still to be

17 considered. Then --

18 MR. MISETIC: Excuse me, Your Honour. I think we're talking

19 about D190.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, D190. At this moment, I do not see how to

21 complete an eight-page document, unless, of course, there is more, but

22 you say this is all you have.

23 MR. MISETIC: I would have to go back and look. I would say,

24 Your Honour, this is a matter of principle. I mean, the Prosecution is

25 able to obtain documents, just like we are. This is -- D190 is the

Page 3071

1 documents we selected to tender into evidence.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems to be a series of documents of which

3 the handwritten note --

4 MR. MISETIC: Every document that is in D190 was tendered by us

5 into evidence.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Ms. Mahindaratne asked herself, since

7 these documents are put together whether, this series is --

8 MR. MISETIC: They were compiled but you see as separate

9 documents.

10 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... compiled by you as

11 documents. So they are not part of a series. That was provided to you

12 as a series.

13 MR. MISETIC: Correct. We compiled them and put them into one

14 exhibit.

15 JUDGE ORIE: This may be a selection of military documents, then

16 you can make your own selection, Ms. Mahindaratne.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Are you ready to continue your cross-examination,

19 Mr. Misetic.

20 Then could Mr. Gojanovic be escorted into the courtroom.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic.

23 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, I'd like to remind you that you are

25 still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of

Page 3072

1 your testimony; that is, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth,

2 and nothing but the truth.

3 Mr. Misetic will now continue his cross-examination.

4 Mr. Misetic, please proceed.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please. Due to the

8 special circumstances, please allow me to address you.

9 The life of my family in Sibenik is currently under great media,

10 social, and political pressure. The police are guarding my family around

11 the clock. For that reason, before counsel Mr. Misetic continues his

12 examination, in view of the fact that my honour and my dignity as a

13 witness and as a person are under attack, please allow me, before this

14 session proceeds, to present to you documents related to this case which

15 indisputably corroborate my statement about my presence in the brigade

16 and in this Operation Storm itself.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, have you given these documents to the

18 Office of the Prosecutor at any earlier stage?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not have given these

20 documents earlier, because they have never been asked of me, since I am

21 under oath and fully aware of my responsibility. Over the days that I

22 was absent from this courtroom, I have not discussed my evidence in this

23 case with anyone. The person who is accompanying me has given me these

24 documents obtained through the operative team of our association, so that

25 I can defend my honour and my dignity in this courtroom.

Page 3073

1 JUDGE ORIE: Whether your honour and dignity was attacked or

2 whether you were presented with documents which give a different view on

3 what had happened is still to be seen, but let's be very practical.

4 I suggest that they, these documents, will be provided to the

5 parties, so that they can have a look at it; and, of course, the Defence

6 has different interests from Prosecution, but both parties can see to

7 what extent they would like to use these documents during the further

8 examination.

9 Is that an acceptable procedure, Ms. Mahindaratne?

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic?

12 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay.

14 He is hidden behind Mr. Misetic.

15 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: This is literally not meant in any way other way.

17 Mr. Mikulicic.

18 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour, we are agreed.

19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please provide these document to the

20 usher, the usher will take care that both parties can have a look at it,

21 because in the system of the Tribunal, it's primarily the parties who

22 adduce evidence and assist the Chamber in understanding your testimony.

23 However, the Chamber reserves its position. If neither party

24 wants to use these documents, then we will consider whether or not we'll

25 call for these documents anyhow, because the witness says they are

Page 3074

1 relevant.

2 So, Mr. Usher, would you please get the relevant documents from

3 Mr. Gojanovic.

4 Mr. Gojanovic, you've got them there?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may kindly ask to make one

6 copy for me, so that I may have them in further proceedings.

7 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, it would be appreciated if, at

8 least for the time being, you would leave originals, if they are

9 originals, with us. Certainly, a copy will be made. I see it is quite a

10 bundle of documents.

11 Mr. Usher, perhaps, let's start by making three sets of copies.

12 Yes, Mr. Gojanovic.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I am far away from home,

14 giving evidence here in the Netherlands, I stated a moment ago that I

15 bear full material and moral responsibility for these documents which are

16 authentic and identical to the original which is kept at my home. Since

17 I was not able to bring originals, I am producing copies here, and I

18 leave it to the Court to verify the authenticity that is the identical

19 nature of these copy to the original.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, let me first address the parties.

21 I'm inclined to issue an order to Mr. Gojanovic to keep the

22 originals in the state as they are at this moment, so that can with be

23 produced at any later stage if there's any need to verify the

24 authenticity of the documents.

25 Ms. Mahindaratne.

Page 3075

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

3 MR. MISETIC: That's fine, Your Honour.

4 MS. HIGGINS: No objections.

5 MR. MIKULICIC: No objections.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, may I.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. First of all, copies will be made of these

9 documents immediately, four sets of documents, so that all parties have a

10 copy available. Of course, I don't know you, I take it they are in

11 B/C/S. But the party will find their way to get a first impression. Of

12 course, we will see whether in those circumstances, after the first

13 session, we can release the witness from his duties. That's still to be

14 seen. Perhaps, we should take a bit more time for that.

15 Mr. Misetic, is it about the order?

16 MR. MISETIC: I just wanted to put on the record that I'm sure

17 the court will allow us the opportunity to look at the documents and

18 reserve a right to cross-examine on the documents, if we feel there is a

19 need to do so.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that would be cross-examination, these

21 documents come up in cross-examination.

22 MR. MISETIC: Right. Obviously, we allow rules to allow the

23 Defence to review documents and prepare in advance to --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we never can exclude from the

25 possibility that the witness comes up with documents suddenly. But, as I

Page 3076

1 said before, it might be a reason not to release the witness after the

2 first session, but ask him to stay until you have had an opportunity to

3 at least have look at these documents.

4 Mr. Gojanovic, you've told us that of the documents you've given

5 to the usher now, and which are being reproduced at this moment and of

6 which you will get your set of copies back, you told us that the

7 originals are at your home. Is that true for all of these documents?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That is true of all these

9 documents, except one, which is the letter of Chief Prosecutor Carla Del

10 Ponte addressed to the association. That letter is kept with the

11 association. The other documents are of a personal nature, and they are

12 a military secret.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since the Chamber might need those documents

14 at a later stage, the Chamber instructs you, therefore gives you an

15 order, that you should keep these documents as they are now, and to make

16 them available at first request to this Trial Chamber in order to have an

17 opportunity to verify the authenticity of the documents of which you

18 provided copies to us now.

19 Is that understood?

20 Mr. Misetic, you please proceed.

21 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.

22 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. With respect to what you've just told the Court, could you tell

Page 3077

1 the Court the name of the person you are contacting in order to obtain

2 these documents.

3 A. It's not I who contacted that gentleman. It's my escort. He

4 contacted me. His name is Ivica Petric.

5 Q. And what did Mr. Petric tell you over the weekend?

6 A. Nothing.

7 Q. How did you know that he had documents for you?

8 A. I did not.

9 Q. When he turned the documents over to you, did he say anything?

10 A. He said these are your documents.

11 Q. Well, you just told the Court earlier that they came from the

12 operative team of your association. How do you know that the documents

13 come from your operative team?

14 A. I suppose so because the documents bear the marking HUR BDV; and

15 since I know hour our system functions in practice, I suppose that that

16 was the procedure through which they were obtained.

17 Q. So, because you didn't have a conversation with Mr. Petric, you

18 don't know for a fact where these documents actually come from. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. That's not correct. The fact is that I know my personal

21 documentation, and I suppose that it was my wife who gave these documents

22 to the operative team of the association and that they were forwarded to

23 Ivica Petric. So that's my assumption for which I have no confirmation.

24 Nobody told me that.

25 Q. Returning to the -- your witness statement from 2005, going back

Page 3078

1 to paragraph 10 of your statement. Towards the middle of the paragraph,

2 you describe: "... another very good soldier, a citizen of Serbian

3 ethnicity who was in our army. I began checking the military warehouse,

4 but we found no other enemy soldiers."

5 Then on Friday, in cross-examination, at page 2990, lines 21

6 to 23, you identified this soldier of Serbian ethnicity as having the

7 last name Despot.

8 I'd like to show you a statement given by Mr. Despot this

9 weekend.

10 MR. MISETIC: If I could ask, Mr. Registrar, for 1D -- I'm sorry.

11 It is not in e-court yet because the statements came over the weekend, so

12 we will be using Sanction. The document number is 1D22-0380.

13 Mr. Usher, we have hard copies of the Croatian version of the

14 statement, if we could give it to the witness.

15 Q. You note on the first page, Mr. Gojanovic, the statement is by

16 Ratko Despot. You note his ethnic origin and his religion.

17 MR. MISETIC: If you turn the page, please. Sorry. Just for the

18 record, the statement was taken 16 May 2008.

19 Q. Paragraph 3, Mr. Despot says: "Prior to Operation Storm, I

20 volunteered in the 1st Infantry Battalion of the 113th Sibenik Brigade as

21 an intelligence officer, which was then transferred to Pavasovici and

22 tasked with attacking over the Pozare mountain towards Sonkovic,

23 Bratiskovici?

24 And further down in paragraph five, second sentence says: "In

25 the evening, I'm not sure what hour, the seven of us - the late Zivko

Page 3079

1 Baric, Milenko Zivkovic, Tihomir Mis, and Josip Elez, two conscripts, and

2 myself - entered the village of Djevrska. It might have been around 2100

3 hours."

4 Paragraph 6: "I'm sure that Vladimir Gojanovic was not with us.

5 I knew my personnel well, especially those that went with me."

6 And then in paragraph 12: "During the operation, Vladimir

7 Gojanovic was not a member of my unit."

8 Now, I'm going to ask you just a question on this incident

9 regarding spending the night in Djevrska.

10 Before I do that, let me show you the second statement that we

11 obtained over the weekend, which is from Mr. Mis.

12 MR. MISETIC: This is also going to be shown on Sanction, with a

13 hard copy to the witness, Mr. Usher. The document ID is 1D22-0388 -- I`m

14 sorry, 1D22-0402. You'll note, on the cover page, it is the statement of

15 Tihomir Mis, taken 18 May 2008.

16 If we can turn the page, please.

17 Q. Paragraph 2: "During Operation Storm, I was a non-commissioned

18 officer of the 2nd Company of the 1st Infantry Battalion of the

19 113th Infantry Brigade."

20 Paragraph 6: "As a company non-commissioned officer, I knew all

21 members of the company, as this was the duty of a company

22 non-commissioned officer.

23 Paragraph 7: "On 5 August 1995, before night-fall, I cannot say

24 at what exact time, we arrived before the locality of Djevrska."

25 Paragraph 8: "At approximately 2100 hours, I'm not sure exactly

Page 3080

1 at what time, it could have been a bit earlier or even sometime later, I

2 entered Djevrska with the commander of my company, Mr. Josip Elez,

3 Mr. Ratko Despot, Mr. Miljenko Zivkovic, the late Zivko Baric, and two

4 conscripts. The conscripts were with us because the company was

5 partially comprised of conscript soldiers. Vladimir Gojanovic was not

6 with us. There were seven of us."

7 At paragraph 10: "During the aforesaid period, and for the whole

8 period of the operation, I do not recall Vladimir Gojanovic. I'm sure

9 that he was not with us in Djevrska because I'm sure that seven of us

10 were there, whom I listed previously."

11 My question to you, Mr. Gojanovic, is: Is it possible that, in

12 fact, you were not in Djevrska with six other people on the night of the

13 5th of August, 1995?

14 A. No. It is not possible, and we were seven.

15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would ask that the last two

16 statements be marked for identification, pursuant to the procedure you

17 outlined on Friday.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document ID number 1D22-0380

20 becomes Exhibit D206, marked for identification. Document 1D22-0402

21 becomes Exhibit D207, marked for identification.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, I'd like to turn your attention to paragraph 22 of

25 your 2005 statement.

Page 3081

1 In paragraph 22, you talk about tractors and equipment that was

2 gathered in Bribirski Knezovi barracks. You say: "There was ..." -- it

3 should say: "This was scandalous because members of the 113th Brigade,

4 with the knowledge of the command, were taking this material for their

5 own use which shamed the Brigade and the HV. I knew this because of

6 rumours amongst the 113th."

7 Now, I'd like to show you a document, Mr. Gojanovic.

8 MR. MISETIC: This is also going be in sanction because I noticed

9 over the weekend, Your Honour, there are attachments to the document that

10 we had originally uploaded into e-court that were not uploaded. So we

11 were in the process of putting it in e-court; but for now we use Sanction

12 and have a hard copy for the witness in Croatian.

13 Mr. Registrar, this will be document 1D22-0388.

14 Q. This is, Mr. Gojanovic, a war booty report, dated 27 August 1995,

15 from Commander Kotlar of the 113th Brigade, reporting to his superiors,

16 and I'll read the first paragraph.

17 It says: "Subject: War booty report." It is addressed to the

18 Command of the Split Military District, Operative Group West: "According

19 to the order of the commander of the Operative Group West, date

20 23 August 1995, regarding the collected amounts of war booty, we inform

21 you about the collected and registered amounts as follows:"

22 Then it indicates there is an appendix with attachments 1, 3, 4,

23 and 5.

24 If you could scroll through the attachments and take a look at

25 what is in the appendixes, in terms of booty, please, and let me know

Page 3082

1 when you are finished.

2 MR. MISETIC: And, Your Honours, we will scroll through here for

3 the benefit of the Court.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have finished.


6 Q. Thank you. Now, you see the type of equipment that is being

7 reported there: Gun, bullets, computer equipment, telescopics.

8 My question to, Mr. Gojanovic, is: In your statement --

9 A. Tractors.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... one. One. Sorry, two.

11 My question to you, sir, is: You say in your statement: "I knew

12 this because of rumours." You didn't actually know or you never actually

13 saw what was being stored at the Bribirski Knezovi barracks, did you?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd ask that this exhibit be marked

16 and tendered and I tender it. Obviously, it is not in e-court yet, but

17 we will get it in e-court hopefully today.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Just, Mr. Misetic, the relevance is the type of --

21 MR. MISETIC: The relevance is --

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- war booty, or --

23 MR. MISETIC: And that it was being registered, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And, yes, that this war booty was registered.

25 MR. MISETIC: Correct.

Page 3083


2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D208.

5 JUDGE ORIE: D208 is admitted into evidence.

6 Please proceed.


8 Q. Turning to my next topic, Mr. Gojanovic. In your statement, you

9 discuss seeing the killing of a prisoner of war. You discuss stopping an

10 attempt to set fire to a house with an elderly lady still inside. You

11 discuss preventing soldiers -- or I should say stopping soldiers who were

12 discussing raping two women who were in a house.

13 My question to you is: Did you ever report any of these

14 incidents to a superior officer?

15 A. No. I never reported that.

16 Q. Did you report it to the military police?

17 A. No. I never reported that.

18 Q. From 1995 until today, have you ever reported it to an organ of

19 the Republic of Croatia, whether civilian or military?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Would it be fair to say that the only institution that you've

22 ever reported what you saw is to this Tribunal?

23 A. Yes, and the public. If I may, I can clarify.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

25 A. Namely, as the chairman of the association, I gave a public

Page 3084

1 statement, including the topic on war profiteers, and it angered a lot of

2 people who are now complaining against my testimony. And in that sense,

3 I believe that I have informed the public, not in as specific details as

4 The Hague Tribunal, but I informed them about the events during the

5 Operation Storm, and I'm not just hiding behind my words.

6 Q. With respect to the three specific incidents that I discussed,

7 have you ever publicly stated that you were a witness to these events, to

8 these specific events?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Yes, yes. I understand.

12 Q. My final topic area, Mr. Gojanovic, the burnings in Kistanje

13 [Realtime transcript read in error "Kiseljak"] which you say you saw, and

14 you were asked some questions about that by the Prosecutor.

15 If I could take you to your statement, which is paragraph 13 of

16 your statement, the 2005 statement.

17 MR. MISETIC: I'm advised, Mr. Registrar, I don't know with if

18 this will be corrected in the record later, but page 17, line 21, the

19 town referenced is "Kiseljak," and it should be "Kistanje."

20 Q. Now, in paragraph 13, you discussed the events in Kistanje. In

21 the second sentence, you say : "When we entered the town of Kistanje,

22 there was already a Croatian military presence, and the 4th Guards

23 Brigade had already been through the town. We were told that by the

24 Croatian army in Kistanje."

25 Further down towards the middle, you say: "I later learnt, from

Page 3085

1 someone in the 142nd Brigade, that the SIS men from the 113th Brigade

2 torched the post office in Kistanje, which was a ridiculous act."

3 My first question to you, sir, is: Mr. Petric was a member of

4 the 13th [sic] Home Guard Brigade Regiment, wasn't he?

5 A. The interpretation is not quite correct, concerning the 13th

6 Regiment. The word in Croatian was not quite correct, so I can't really

7 quite understand what it is that you asked.

8 Q. Mr. Petric was a member of the 15th Home Guards?

9 A. The question --

10 Q. Previous translation continues] ...

11 A. No. I'm not aware of that. Those are his personal military

12 data.

13 Q. Well, are you aware that Mr. Petric and the 15th Home Guards were

14 in Kistanje on the 5th of August, 1995?

15 A. I know during the -- I learned this during the period after the

16 operation, because during the Operation Storm, Ivica Petric and I did not

17 know each other.

18 Q. Yes. But you learned this information from Mr. Petric because

19 you sat in on Mr. Petric's interview by the Office of the Prosecutor,

20 where Mr. Petric said, in 2002, that he was a member of the 15th Sibenik

21 Home Guard Regiment, and that he was in Kistanje on the 5th of August.

22 Do you recall that?

23 A. If you're alluding to that, namely, that I heard this information

24 from Ivica Petric during the proceedings or work with the The Hague

25 investigators, that's not true, because I know for a fact whom I had

Page 3086

1 heard it from. I think that one does not need to respond to a rumour of

2 that extent. However, it is of such a nature that one needs to tell the

3 The Hague investigators about the situation in Kistanje on that day and

4 that it is based on a rumour.

5 Q. Are you aware today, regardless of whether you heard it after

6 Operation Storm or during Operation Storm, that Mr. Petric was in

7 Kistanje on the 5th of August?

8 A. Do you wish to ask whether I know about that fact right now?

9 Well, I knew about that even before these proceedings, but not during the

10 Operation Storm.

11 Q. Okay. Then that leads me to my next question, Mr. Gojanovic,

12 which is: In giving your statement at paragraph 13, and in giving your

13 testimony in court on Friday, why didn't you mention the 15th Home Guard

14 Regiment or Mr. Petric being present in Kistanje on the 5th of August?

15 A. Nobody asked me about that, like you asked me about it now.

16 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, you have no proof that the 4th Guards Brigade was

17 ever in Kistanje, do you?

18 A. No. I don't have evidence of that.

19 [Defence counsel confer]

20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further

21 questions.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

23 Ms. Higgins, you're on your feet. May I take it that you will

24 cross-examine the witness.

25 MS. HIGGINS: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 3087

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gojanovic, you will now be cross-examined

2 by Ms. Higgins, who is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

3 Please proceed.

4 Cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:

5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic. I'd like to take you straight away

6 to the first statement that you made on the 20th of January 2005 which

7 you have been looking at.

8 Now, at that time that you made that statement, you confirmed

9 that it was true to the best of your knowledge and recollection. Do you

10 agree? Do you agree, Mr. Gojanovic?

11 A. I agree.

12 Q. And you knew that when you made that statement, you -- the

13 statement itself may be used in legal proceedings and that you may be

14 called to testify before this Tribunal.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Let me take you straight away to the relevant part for my

17 purposes of your statement which is paragraph 13, if you can have that

18 before you.

19 It states as follows: "I also learned later that all the

20 equipment and machinery from the factory in Kistanje was taken by a

21 detachment of men acting under the orders of General Cermak. This is

22 stupid because we were capturing the area and the factory would have

23 provided employment for our people; but in this way, all the money went

24 to the generals and we, the liberators, got the blame. Based on what I

25 was told, they used military trucks to take the things from the textile

Page 3088

1 factory; and when Cermak arrived, he chased all the soldiers that were

2 checking it away, cordoned it off, and began loading the equipment on to

3 military trucks. I learnt this later from someone in the 142nd Home

4 Guard Brigade, and that it happened sometime after my unit had left the

5 area."

6 Now, that was your statement in 2005, Mr. Gojanovic; and last

7 week, in the proofing session, if I take you to what you said there,

8 merely this: That you were told that Cermak's people who were infamous

9 arrived and chased the soldiers away and that you were not told that

10 Cermak himself had arrived.

11 Have I stated that correctly?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, I'd like to you help me with this: Why is it that you said,

14 in your first statement, that Mr. Cermak was not only present but he was

15 chasing, cordoning off, and loading?

16 A. I used a wrong term. When speaking about Cermak, I actually

17 meant Cermak's men. And the information I received from somebody else, I

18 put it in the correction of my statement from 2005.

19 Q. Well, let's look at that a little bit more closely, if we may.

20 Now, you were given the chance to correct items in your 2005

21 statement when you gave your second statement this year, in January 2008.

22 Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you would agree would me, I presume, that it is a very

25 different matter to say that someone was present or that it was, in fact,

Page 3089

1 people present, not being Mr. Cermak. You'd agree that was a significant

2 inaccuracy, I presume?

3 Could you --

4 A. Yes, I agree with you.

5 Q. Just help me with this: Why is it that you waited until just a

6 couple of days before coming to testify at this Court to make that

7 correction? Why didn't you make it in your second statement?

8 A. As I have said a bit earlier, let me explain. When using the

9 word "Cermak," when giving my statements, I had in mind Cermak's men; but

10 when I went back and reviewed my statement, I still took it that in

11 saying "Cermak," I meant Cermak's men. It is an omission on my part that

12 I didn't put it in concrete terms as the situation required.

13 Q. Just to conclude on that point, you'd agree with me that on a

14 reading of your first statement in Croatian, the meaning is, in fact,

15 that Mr. Cermak was present, chasing, loading. Correct?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Higgins, your point is perfectly clear.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

19 JUDGE ORIE: In general, as a guidance, the ritual dances in the

20 beginning, is this what you wanted to tell in accordance with the truth,

21 et cetera, of course, I fully understand that is part of the art of

22 [indiscernible], not always in full extent necessary.

23 Please proceed.

24 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Let me examine the source with you, Mr. Gojanovic.

Page 3090

1 Who gave you this alleged information? Can you give me the name,

2 please?

3 A. A member of 142nd provided it to me, and that was after the year

4 2000. It was done in the work of the association that I have been

5 leading for eight years now. His name is Miro.

6 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, why didn't you provide that name prior to just

7 now? Why didn't you tell the Prosecution and give that detail, if that's

8 correct?

9 A. Because, as chairman of the Croatian Association, I have the duty

10 to protect the interest of Croatian demobilised defenders.

11 Q. Well, you also have a duty to come before this Court and provide

12 truthful and accurate information of which you are aware. So I'd like to

13 ask you if you can provide with his address please because I'd like to

14 make contact with this individual.

15 A. I don't have the address of this person because the association

16 is such -- has such a system of work where the president has contact with

17 people without having to know their addresses.

18 Q. Where were you when the conversation took place? Do you remember

19 that?

20 A. No. Right now, I can't remember that, I can't recall, because

21 it's been a long time. However, the fact remains etched in my memory,

22 and I wanted to use that fact to clarify to The Hague investigators the

23 situation that was described in rumours circulating at the time.

24 Q. Well, can you help me with when he told you?

25 A. After 2000, but I couldn't tell you in more detail.

Page 3091

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may suggest, I'm sorry to

2 interrupt, if the witness has any further information on this other

3 person, perhaps we could go into private session and maybe the witness

4 might --

5 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, if I may just address that briefly.

6 The witness has come here to testify with no protective measures. He is

7 not able to provide with me any details to date that I would wish to be

8 written down if it he were appropriate to do so. So we're not there, and

9 I'm asking perfectly proper questions to test the reliability of this

10 witness's evidence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, the witness heard this

12 morning from the witness [sic] about what he describes as perfect

13 directions to the first portion of his evidence, which is a matter the

14 Chamber might want further to look into and might also have consequences

15 of what to do in private session, what not to do in private session.

16 Therefore, with full respect for the public character of this

17 hearing, let's proceed at this moment; but, at the same time, this may be

18 some reason for pursuit.

19 At this time, I think, Ms. Mahindaratne, this has no direct

20 practical consequence for the questions Ms. Higgins has put to the

21 witness until now. If there's any moment, Ms. Higgins, where in view of

22 my earlier observation you would consider, that this might be a moment

23 for caution that you take matters so slowly as to give an opportunity to

24 Ms. Mahindaratne to respond or even for the Chamber to intervene when

25 necessary.

Page 3092

1 Please proceed.

2 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you.

3 Q. How did the conversation come about, Mr. Gojanovic? How did it

4 come about that you were talking with this man about a factory in

5 Kistanje? Do you remember that?

6 A. The work of the association, which I have been leading for years,

7 includes a number of types of communications about the activities which

8 took place during the war and after the war. And in that sense, the

9 primary task of the president of the association and the association

10 itself is to protect the interests of all demobilised defenders,

11 regardless of how difficult are the circumstances in which these

12 defenders find themselves nowadays.

13 Q. If can you answer my question, which is this: How did it come

14 about the circumstances that you and this individual were talking about a

15 factory in Kistanje? I understand the role of your association, but

16 that's not my question.

17 A. If you are asking me about the very specific circumstances of

18 that conversation, I simply do not recall them right now. If you are

19 asking me about very general circumstances about that conversation, then

20 I have already provided the answer to you through my previous answer.

21 Q. I will move on.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, the question clearly is: Why did you

23 deal with this subject in your conversation with this person? Do you

24 remember that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me about what

Page 3093

1 prompted me to talk to him. Well, what prompted me --

2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... to talk with

3 him, but what prompted you to talk about this subject? Did he raise the

4 matter, did you raise the matter? What made you discuss this matter?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, that person

6 initiated the subject himself based on newspaper clippings of articles

7 that were published during the Operation Storm.

8 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... tell that you

9 he had any personal knowledge of this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Higgins.

12 MS. HIGGINS: Thank you.

13 Q. These newspaper clippings and articles, presumably he would have

14 handed those into the association. Do you have those?

15 A. Specifically about the incident we're talking about now, I don't

16 have the newspaper clippings, but I believe they are available on the

17 Internet, if they are still kept on those web sites.

18 Q. Where can I find them, Mr. Gojanovic? Perhaps you can help me.

19 A. On the Internet, among the archives of various newspapers in

20 Croatia.

21 Q. Which web sites?

22 A. Web sites of Croatian newspapers: Jutarnji List, Slobodna

23 Dalmacija, and others. I suppose it is there.

24 Q. They are not in your own archives, are they, just to be clear?

25 A. No, they're not.

Page 3094

1 Q. Let's talk about the factory, shall we? You've been through

2 Kistanje? Can you tell me what the factory looked like, first of all,

3 please?

4 A. I don't remember the factory anymore because I don't remember the

5 passage through Kistanje, as such, anymore. My statement is linked to

6 what another person remembered. I don't recollect what the factory

7 looked like anymore.

8 Q. Well, do you recollect how many factories there were in Kistanje?

9 A. As far as I know, but from what I learned after the war, Kistanje

10 had only one factory.

11 Q. What do you say the factory made?

12 A. Well, in my statement, when I was giving it, I didn't even know

13 what the factory produced, whether it was producing metal screws or

14 clothing. And when I was giving my statement, I didn't even know what

15 kind of factory it was.

16 Q. Well, Mr. Gojanovic, isn't it correct that, in fact, there are

17 only two factories in Kistanje? One is a factory of specialised tools

18 that was part of the Tvik factory in Knin, and the second was a metal

19 company, a metal factory called Jadran.

20 Does that ring a bell by any chance?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Well, the only textile factories are actually or were actually in

23 Evonik and Knin, not Kistanje. Does that help you?

24 A. No. I have already stated, in the statement that I gave to the

25 OTP, that I didn't know what this factory manufactured; therefore, I

Page 3095

1 think your question is pointless because I have already replied

2 indirectly to any follow-up question on that.

3 Q. Let me move on to a question which I hope you find is not

4 pointless, and that's dealing with the people that you say you were told

5 were involved.

6 Now, in your first statement in 2005, you described them as a

7 detachment under the orders of General Cermak. In your second statement,

8 just to remind you, there's no mention of the incident at all. And in

9 your proofing sheet last week, within the last few days, you used the

10 term merely "Cermak's people, who were infamous."

11 Do you understand?

12 A. I understand.

13 Q. Who were they?

14 A. I don't know who were those people. I don't know them

15 personally.

16 Q. How many of them?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Where did they come from?

19 A. I don't know, probably from Zagreb, because General Cermak was

20 mostly stationed before Operation Storm in Zagreb.

21 Q. How many trucks?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Where had the trucks come from? Do you know any detail about

24 that?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 3096

1 MS. HIGGINS: Your Honour, bearing in mind what you said earlier,

2 I'd like to move into private session for a very short period please.

3 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3097

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

Page 3098

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


3 Q. I, finally, want to ask you to look with me at a series of four

4 documents which I'm going to put before you, show to you, and then I will

5 ask you a question. Is that clear?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 MS. HIGGINS: Can I ask, Mr. Registrar, for the document

8 2D02-0039 to be pulled up on to the screen, please.

9 Q. Now, Mr. Gojanovic, this is a document dated the 10th of August,

10 1995; and in the top right-hand corner, you can see a stamp marked

11 "Received," and it is from Major Ivan Juric, to the head of the military

12 police administration, which you can see from the context of the

13 document. I'm going to read into the record a very short extract at

14 paragraph 2, if you could follow please:

15 "In the zone of responsibility of the 4th General Military

16 Police, Sibenik Company, its members, beside regular military police

17 tasks, are still guarding two industrial facilities and the Orthodox

18 monastery in Kistanje."

19 Can you follow that with me, Mr. Gojanovic?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 MS. HIGGINS: Mr. Registrar, can I ask now for the second in this

22 series of four, dated the following date, the 11th of August, 1995. It

23 is document 2D02-0043 to be put on to the screen. Thank you.

24 Q. Now, just reading again, you will see, again, that it is from the

25 same series. It is from the same individual, Major Juric, to the head of

Page 3099

1 the military police administration. And this time, I'm going to read

2 into the record, and if you could follow, paragraph 1, starting on the

3 second line:

4 "It is expected that during the day MUP, Ministry of Interior

5 members, will take over the security in Kistanje (around Elovac

6 monastery, Jadran factory, and Tvik factory). Points in security in

7 Drnis are unchanged."


9 If we could now move to the third in the series, which is, in

10 fact, a 65 ter, which is 01741, please, Mr. Registrar.

11 Q. Again, same individual, same format, paragraph 1, line 1: "On

12 the 12th of August, in the zone of responsibility of the 4th General

13 Military Police Company, Sibenik, members of the MUP have not yet taken

14 over the security in Kistanje around Elovac monastery, Jadran factory,

15 Tvik factory."

16 MS. HIGGINS: And, finally, if I can ask for 65 ter 02048,

17 please, Mr. Registrar.

18 Q. Same format, 13th of August, paragraph 1: "In the zone of

19 responsible of the 4th General Military Police Company, Sibenik, members

20 of the MUP took over the security in Kistanje, around Elovac monastery,

21 Jadran factory, Tvik factory."

22 Do you see that, Mr. Gojanovic, from the documents?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Have you seen any of these documents prior to your proofing

25 sessions or in the sessions that you had when you made your statements?

Page 3100

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you see that, in fact, these documents show that the two

3 factories in the monastery in Kistanje were, in fact, guarded, it

4 appears, by the 4th General Military Police from before the 10th of

5 August?

6 A. I see that.

7 Q. And that the --

8 A. But --

9 Q. Yeah, sorry. Carry on, Mr. Gojanovic.

10 A. I still can't see which dates are concerned because I can see in

11 the heading 13th of August, and here, in pencil, it is written 11th of

12 August; whereas, you are asking me whether I can see from the document

13 that members of the 72nd battalion, if I understood correctly, had taken

14 over these factories before the 10th of August.

15 Q. Well, Mr. Gojanovic, I have taken you through the documents, I

16 have read out the relevant passages, and my assertion remains that the

17 guarding of the factories was, in fact, in accordance with what I have

18 read out. That is merely what I'm trying to establish with you,

19 Mr. Gojanovic.

20 A. Yes, I can confirm that. I see from these documents that that is

21 the case, but I hadn't seen these documents before.

22 Q. I understand that. I have no further questions for you,

23 Mr. Gojanovic.

24 MS. HIGGINS: But I would ask that the two documents which are

25 not 65 ter in that series be admitted as exhibits in evidence.

Page 3101

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

3 MS. HIGGINS: I'm grateful.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you please assign numbers.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Document ID 2D02-0039 becomes

6 Exhibit D209. Document ID 2D02-0043 becomes Exhibit D210.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then D209 and D210 are admitted into evidence.

8 Just for the record, Mr. Gojanovic, you said the document

9 mentioned, in handwriting, the 11th of August. It appears that that is

10 the 11th of August of 2004, rather than of 1995.

11 MS. HIGGINS: I'm sorry. Can I make one further clarification,

12 Your Honour, which is I also seek, although they're 65 ters, the last two

13 documents - that's my mistake - I also seek admission of those, please,

14 the full series of four. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The full series of four, then we need two additional

16 numbers.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Your Honour, 65 ter number 01741 becomes

20 Exhibit D211, and 65 ter number 02048 becomes Exhibit D212.

21 JUDGE ORIE: D211 and D212 are admitted into evidence.

22 Please proceed.

23 Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

24 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. I'm looking at the clock.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not know exactly how much time you would

Page 3102

1 need, but I take it more than five minutes.

2 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, a bit more than five minutes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll first have a break, and we'll then

4 proceed after the break.

5 Mr. Gojanovic, we'll have a break for 25 minutes. After the

6 break, you will be cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic, who is counsel for

7 Mr. Markac.

8 We will resume at ten minutes to 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic, please proceed.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gojanovic.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I'm Goran Mikulicic, Attorney-at-Law, representing General Markac

17 in this trial. I will be putting questions to you, and please provide

18 answers to the best of your recollection.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry please bring

20 up on the screen 1D22-0362, and could we zoom into the upper left portion

21 on this page.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There are several

23 microphones on in the courtroom.


25 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, can you see it on the screen? Can you see the

Page 3103

1 article entitled, "The state top is responsible for genocide in Varivode

2 and Gosici"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This is the article published in Vjesnik Daily on 16th of

5 September 2004?

6 A. Yes, I see that.

7 Q. Another article in the same paper was already put to you earlier,

8 but I will discussing this one.

9 MR. MIKULICIC: For the sake of the record, the article reads as

10 follows: "The Republic Organisation of the Croatian Association of

11 Demobilised Defenders from the Homeland War sent to the Chief Prosecutor

12 in The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, a request to hold a meeting urgently in

13 order to turn over to her documents; that is to say, evidence proving the

14 involvement of the then-state top in the Varivode and Gosici case when,

15 in 1995, ten civilians of Serb ethnicity were called."

16 A. It's 18.

17 Q. Yes, 18, I apologise.

18 In paragraph 2, it reads as follows: "Based on the documents

19 collected, Gojanovic accuses for the crimes, Franjo Tudjman, Ivan Jarnjak

20 Gojko Susak, Miroslav Separovic, Mate Ganic, Nikica Valentic, all the way

21 up to Ivica Racan, Sime Lucin, and Ingrid Anticevic-Marinovic, who

22 allegedly concealed the evidence of ethnic cleansing in Varivode and

23 Gosici."

24 The last paragraph reads: "When asked why he disclosed the

25 documents to the public not long after the county branch of the Croatian

Page 3104

1 Democratic Party Had ordered the eviction of the association from the

2 premises that he this used so far, Gojanovic said that it was only now

3 that they had collected the documents."

4 My question, Mr. Gojanovic: The contents of this article, do

5 they reflect accurately what you said to the journalist Ana Rukavina.

6 A. The late Ana Rukavina, and my answer is yes.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: Could this document be tendered into evidence,

8 please, and assigned a number.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That is Exhibit D213, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: D213 is admitted into evidence.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: I will now ask the registry to call up Exhibit

14 3D00-0685.

15 Q. This document represents the minutes from the session of the

16 Government of the Republic of Croatia, held on the 5th of October, 1995.

17 The session was attended and, in fact, it was chaired by the

18 then-prime minister, Nikica Valentic, and then the attendees are listed.

19 Following that, the ministers that were present and those were absent.

20 Do you see the document, Mr. Gojanovic?

21 A. I do.

22 MR. MIKULICIC: Could we now turn to page 2 of this document

23 where we see the agenda for the session.

24 Q. Under item 2 of the agenda for this session of the government, it

25 reads: "Information on the killing of nine civilians of Serb ethnicity

Page 3105

1 in the village of Varivode."

2 MR. MIKULICIC: Could we now turn to page 8, which is 3D00-0692.

3 Q. Here, we have the summary of the information, where it says:

4 "The minister of the interior, Ivan Jarnjak, informed the government on

5 the killing of nine civilians of Serb ethnicity in the village of

6 Varivode near Knin, noting that all of them were elderly and that they

7 were killed with a fire-arm.

8 "Ivan Jarnjak also informed the government on the measures taken

9 by the Ministry of Interior, aimed at identifying the perpetrator of this

10 crime as soon as possible."

11 Then it says that there was a discussion concerning this item.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: Could the registry now -- or rather, could the

13 this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The one thing I asked myself, Mr. Mikulicic,

17 is no questions have been put to the witness in relation no document, has

18 it?

19 MR. MIKULICIC: I will put my questions when we look through the

20 whole documents that I --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So questions still to come.

22 Then, Mr. Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D214, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: D214 is admitted into evidence.

25 Please proceed.

Page 3106

1 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry now please

2 call up 3D00-0624.

3 While we're waiting, by way of explanation, Your Honour, this is

4 a document that we uploaded into the e-court, but this document hasn't

5 yet been translated officially by CLSS. In order to be of assistance, we

6 translated the part of the document that we wish to put to the witness;

7 and, whereby, we translated the first document.

8 The second document is a transcript of the government session

9 that has a total of 53 pages. We requested that the entire document be

10 translated; but for the purposes of today's witness, we will be only

11 using a part of the document which starts on page 3D00-0661.

12 Could the registry please put on the screen 3D00-0661.

13 Q. In the discussion on the second item of the agenda, about the

14 killing of civilians in the village of Varivode, Mr. Ivan Jarnjak, the

15 then-minister of the interior, took the floor and said as follows:

16 "Mr. President, on Friday in Varivode, it was established that in that

17 village nine persons, all of them of Serbian ethnicity, all nine of them

18 elderly, were killed."

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the following page,

20 please.

21 Q. I will now read the section that starts in the middle of the page

22 with the words "We undertook ..."

23 "We undertook preventative measures, which means that we used

24 much stronger forces to block all roads and trails, which is

25 exceptionally difficult because this is a region where there are many of

Page 3107

1 these small trails that can be very easily and quickly traversed by

2 off-road vehicles, and this makes the situation very difficult for us.

3 But it is certain that, in several days, we will release all names

4 accompanied by solid evidence, and then we will send an open letter, a

5 general letter or a letter of a general nature, to the public

6 prosecutor."

7 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we see the following page,

8 please, the last paragraph.

9 Q. Minister Jarnjak goes on to say: "Therefore, this is no longer

10 an issue of some folklore. There is now an issue of serious organised

11 crime that we are blamed for and which we have to resolve. We will

12 attempt to resolve it; however, I say that we are seeking ..."

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] The following page, please.

14 Q. "... greater involvement of civilian authorities."

15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we now turn to page

16 3D00-0665. The last paragraph.

17 Q. Here, Prime Minister Nikica Valentic took the floor, and said as

18 follows: "Before I start the discussion, Deputy Prime Minister Granic

19 has already asked to speak and we cannot start the discussion now as

20 there is no time, and we cannot discuss the general security situation in

21 the country, especially in occupied territories. But, here, for the sake

22 of the record and for the sake of my own responsibility, I wish to say as

23 follows: A state in which civilians are killed, regardless of who they

24 are, a state that is unable to intervene ..."

25 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Then the continuation it on the

Page 3108

1 following page. Could I see the following page, please.

2 Q. "... a state that is unable to protect civilian, that state, that

3 country, has no chance of achieving the goals that we are supporting. It

4 is completely understandable to me that there are all kinds of things,

5 that there is revenge, that there is violence, that there is greed, but

6 we have to give the utmost importance to this issue.

7 "I talked about this most seriously with the president of the

8 state, who is the only one who has power in that respect because he has

9 powers over the army staff, and the government does not have any formal

10 or factual powers. Therefore, I will personally say, and I will say this

11 in any other situation, that I will have no peace, I myself, personally,

12 until the perpetrator is identified and punished."

13 Mr. Gojanovic, my question: Having read the minutes of the

14 government session where one of the items on the agenda was this murder

15 that you testified about, I am asking you this: Were you aware of this

16 position of the then-Croatian government and authorities in the broader

17 sense of the word?

18 A. As for this political position stated publicly at the cabinet

19 session of the Croatian government, I didn't know about it.

20 MR. MIKULICIC: I would like to tender this document.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objections, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, I take it that the witness doesn't know

24 anything about it. What then? Is it just for to us know what he doesn't

25 know about or what is it? Is it the suggestion that what is said here

Page 3109

1 was actually the --

2 MR. MIKULICIC: [Microphone not activated] ... it's opposite to

3 his statement in the newspaper article which we were providing at the

4 beginning of my cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness says, to a newspaper, the government

6 looks guilty, and the government, apparently in an internal document of

7 which you have read only part, not the portions about "We will go after

8 the perpetrators," but there are problems. You just select your own part

9 of it. Well, there is no objection from the other side. But just for

10 you to know, that, of course, the Chamber will look at it, not

11 necessarily only to the portions you quoted.

12 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. I selected only portions due

13 for the value of the Court's time. That was the only reason, and you

14 will find out afterwards that the other portions of these minutes are not

15 relevant for the subject of the testimony.

16 JUDGE ORIE: No. But also the portions that were translated give

17 other information about the investigations and about perpetrators as

18 well. That's also portions which did you not read.

19 There are no objections.

20 Then, Mr. Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit D215.

22 JUDGE ORIE: D215 is admitted into evidence.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Q. [Interpretation] And my last subject, Mr. Gojanovic.

25 You have turned over to the Court today one set of documents you

Page 3110

1 received over the weekend, and you want them to be considered. Did I

2 understand you correctly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You turned over a certificate issued by the defence department

5 from Sibenik, from which it transpires that you were mobilised on the

6 3rd of August and demobilised on the 7th of May, 1995 -- sorry, 7th of

7 September, 1995.

8 You also turned over a letter, a reply by Mrs. Carla Del Ponte to

9 your letter. I'm not interested in that for the moment.

10 Among other things, you turned over a copy of your army service

11 book: One that was previously valid but has been cancelled, and the

12 current one.

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Is it the case that anywhere, in these documents, it is stated

15 that you were a member of 113th Brigade?

16 A. I think so, and I'll tell you very specifically.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that everyone, meanwhile, has hard copies

18 of these documents.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see, Counsel, on page 21

20 of my old army service book --

21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. -- it is clearly stated that it was issued by the department of

24 defence, and it says I have to immediately report to military unit

25 9025/33, to the assembly point Slime, Jadrija in Sibenik district.

Page 3111

1 Q. I can see that, Mr. Gojanovic, and others in the courtroom have

2 had opportunity to see it as well, but my question was: Do these

3 documents refer anywhere to the 113th Brigade?

4 A. And since you come from Croatia, have you ever seen a reference

5 to any military unit by name in any army service book? There is usually

6 a reference to the number of the military unit, and this is a military

7 secret. The army service book is a military secret.

8 Q. I suppose you have asked for a waiver of military secret when you

9 turned over these documents to the Prosecution.

10 A. No, I have not.

11 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: President, just one point, the documents were

15 not turned over to the Prosecution but to Court.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You didn't receive a hard copy.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I just wanted to point

18 out that the documents were brought to the Court by the witness and not

19 before that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how are we going to deal with these

21 documents? Questions were put to the witness in relation to his military

22 booklet.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I address the Court?

24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... dealing with

25 the procedural aspect of it.

Page 3112

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Very well.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.

4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, we had a discussion during the break

5 about these documents; and, basically, the Defence -- neither the Defence

6 nor the Prosecution has any objection to the Court admitting the

7 documents presented by the witness. The only caveat is obviously, that I

8 think goes without saying, is that we'll take -- we will research the

9 documents; and if this is an problem with them in any way, we will bring

10 it to the attention of the Court after we have an opportunity to seek

11 confirmation that these are authentic.


13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber suggests that we admit these documents,

15 the bundle as a whole, as a Court exhibit, since it has been offered to

16 the Court and since the parties do not object against it.

17 Mr. Registrar, the bundle, which exists of copies sent by fax,

18 apparently on the 18th of May 2008; copies of a document dated the 3rd of

19 September, 1999, apparently about service of Vladimir Gojanovic in the

20 period of between the 3rd of August and the 7th of September, 1995.

21 That's one document in the bundle.

22 The second document appears to be a military booklet, an old one,

23 that has been annulled.

24 The third document being another military booklet concerning this

25 document.

Page 3113

1 Now, the then remaining document is the letter sent by the former

2 Prosecutor of this Tribunal, Carla Del Ponte, to Mr. Gojanovic, 18th of

3 November, 2003. It is not exactly clear what the relevance of this

4 document is.

5 Mr. Gojanovic, could you add one word why you added this to your

6 military documents?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll be very brief and specific.

8 Last Friday, at the last session in this trial, the Defence

9 practically accused me by saying that my participation here as a witness

10 is somehow related to the work of my association and the eviction of our

11 association from its premises in Croatia. But, here, in the last

12 paragraph of this letter, I draw your attention to the words of Carla Del

13 Ponte, about the real motivation that drove us when we presented all the

14 documents to the OTP, together with two DVDs. I would appreciate it,

15 Your Honour, if you would allow me personally to read that sentence

16 regarding the motives.

17 May I?

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: If the document will be admitted into evidence, the

21 Chamber can read what is in the document; and, therefore, there is no

22 need to read it at this moment. I do understand that you --

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's just one sentence, please.

24 Just once sentence.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... aware that it

Page 3114

1 is just one sentence. I do understand that you consider this document

2 relevant for what Ms. Del Ponte has written to you. That's sufficient.

3 Thank you.

4 Mr. Registrar, the whole bundle existing of four documents.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This becomes Exhibit C2.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

7 Ms. Mahindaratne.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

10 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, on Friday, you were shown a statement given to the

11 Gotovina Defence team by one Dragan Rak, who the Defence suggested was

12 the commander of the 3rd Battalion of the 113th Brigade.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, I'm referring to the statement

14 D197, marked for identification.

15 Q. In that statement, Dragan Rak claims that in he knew you, because

16 you had served your compulsory service in the 113th Brigade in 1992 and

17 1993. Do you recall that?

18 A. No, because that is not true.

19 Q. In fact, the Defence suggested to you that you had served your

20 compulsory service in the 113th Brigade before joining the 4th Guards

21 Brigade.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: For the record, transcript reference number

23 3038.

24 Q. Now my question to you is --

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up in the meanwhile document D190,

Page 3115

1 please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently, one of your previous questions caused

3 some confusion because he did in the ask whether he recalled that

4 statement to be read to him but whether he recalled, which is ambiguous

5 because do you recall the statement or do you recall what was in the

6 statement, and therefore the witness said that it was not true.

7 But I take it that he may well have recalled the statement being

8 read to him.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President. I will move on;

10 although, I do not want to waste any further time on that.

11 May I call Document D190.

12 Q. Now, did you know a person by the name of Dragan Rak any time

13 before Operation Storm or during Operation Storm?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Now, as I just mentioned, the Defence, in fact, suggested to you

16 that you had served your compulsory service in the 113th Sibenik Brigade.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Now if we could just move on to page, in the

18 English version, page 4. That is the document which bears number

19 1D22-0375.

20 Q. Now, on the screen, Mr. Gojanovic, is one of the disciplinary

21 measures ordered, tendered by Mr. Misetic. And if you see in the main

22 paragraph, it's recorded as this: "Vladimir Gojanovic, soldier rank, who

23 is serving in VP 3134 Sinj, 1st Battalion, 2nd Company."

24 Do you not that? Mr. Gojanovic, do you note that reference?

25 You're not getting translation?

Page 3116

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. The date of this document is 10th September 1993. Do you note

3 that?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. Was this disciplinary measure meted out to you during your

6 compulsory service?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, in fact, when Mr. Misetic suggested to you that you had

9 served your compulsory service in Sibenik Brigade, you did say that your

10 compulsory was served in the Sinj area. Do you recall that? Do you

11 recall that statement?

12 A. I recall that, and that's the truth.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Now while we're on this document, if we could

14 move on to the next page. That is the disciplinary measure dated

15 8 September 1994. That is document bearing ID 22-0377. I think that is

16 page 6. We're on the wrong page. That's correct.

17 Q. Now, this disciplinary measure or order is signed by Commander

18 Kotlar. That's correct, isn't it?

19 MR. MISETIC: Objection, Your Honour. That is not correct.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, it is signed by -- the document

22 I have here is 8 September 1994. It is signed by Commander Kotlar.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I can't see whether --

24 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... Krsticevic.

25 JUDGE ORIE: -- what is on our screen at this moment, both

Page 3117

1 what --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Damir Krsticevic.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry. It says "Brigadier." I'm sorry.

4 I mentioned the wrong name.

5 Q. Brigadier Damir Krsticevic, now he was the commander of the 4rd

6 Guards Brigade. Is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And in that page, there is a paragraph which -- with the

9 subheading, "Legal Remedy." Do you note that?

10 Can you please look at the screen, Mr. Gojanovic?

11 A. I can see that.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... stated: Against this order,

13 an appeal may be filed to the commander of the Split Military District

14 within three days from receipt or notice."

15 Now, during your time in the 4th Guards Brigade, are you familiar

16 with persons appealing to the Split Military District command against

17 disciplinary measures? Did you know of incidents, and I'm not talking

18 about yourself. Perhaps, are you aware of incidents where your fellow

19 soldiers may have appealed to the Military District command?

20 A. Other soldiers, too, were involved in similar incidents, and I

21 know for sure that nobody ever appealed.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Moving on, may I call up document number ID

23 220329. This has not been tendered in evidence. It is one of the

24 Defence documents.

25 Q. Now, while the document is being brought up -- it is before you.

Page 3118

1 Do you recognise this document, Mr. Gojanovic? This is your personnel

2 record obtained by the Defence, in fact, from the HV mobilisation office.

3 Do you recognise this? This is your record, the record relating

4 to you?

5 A. I do not recognise it because I had never had access to these

6 documents.

7 Q. Your name is recorded at the top of the document as "Gojanovic,

8 Vladimir," and your personal details are recorded there. Is your date of

9 birth correct there, 25th February 1972?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Now, you testified that your compulsory service was not in the

12 113th Brigade but in Sinj. Then you went on to say that, after Sinj, you

13 served in Zagreb and then in Delnice before you joined the 4th Guards

14 Brigade.

15 Do you recall saying that to the Defence counsel?

16 A. Yes, I do, and that's exactly so.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we move on to page 2 of this document.

18 Q. Do you note under paragraph numbered 14 which says "Service

19 Period," you have your service recorded from 16th August 1993 to

20 22nd October 1993 as being in Sinj, unit identified as 3134; and from

21 2nd February 1994 to 1st March 1994, you are recorded as serving in

22 Zagreb; and from --

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon, Mr. President. That was

24 23 October 1993 to 2nd February 1994.

25 Q. And then from 2nd February 1994 to 1st March 1994 in Delnice; and

Page 3119

1 then from 1st March 1994 to 16th June 1994, you're recorded as having

2 served in the Split, that the 4 Guards Brigade.

3 That's correct, isn't it, that's what you testified when you were

4 cross-examined by the Defence?

5 A. Yes, that was my statement. But I notice an error here

6 concerning the military post box in Split. It was in year 1995. It was

7 the 16th of June 1995, the end date.

8 Q. If you go on further down, if you see paragraph number 21 which

9 has a subheading, "Service during the war," you're recorded as having

10 served in the Split 4th Guards Brigade up to 6th March, 1995.

11 That's when you were demobilised from 4th Guards Brigade. Isn't

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then just below that, there is a record that you have served

15 from 3rd August 1995 to 7th September 1995 in a unit identified as

16 9125- --

17 MR. MISETIC: I'm going object, Your Honour, to the use of the

18 word that he "served." It simply notes when the mobilisation order date

19 and the demobilisation order date. Whether or not he served is not

20 reflected in this document.

21 JUDGE ORIE: "Service during the war" reads, and perhaps you put

22 it literally, "war unit 9125-33," but, at the same time, illegible and

23 crossed out, "from the 3rd of August until the 7th of September, 1995."

24 Let me just look at this.

25 Whether or not he served, Mr. Misetic, I read under 21 "Service

Page 3120

1 during the war." To say that the document doesn't say anything about

2 this is not completely understood by me.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is active military service.

4 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... we see there

5 21, Mr. Misetic.

6 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour. But if you look in the original,

7 off on the right, on the first entry for Split --

8 JUDGE ORIE: On the original? Yes. But your objection was not

9 that comparing with the original that you find different matters. You

10 said that it didn't say anything about service.

11 MR. MISETIC: What I was referring to, Your Honour, if you look

12 at the original on the first entry, it says "DVD," which in Croatian

13 means [B/C/S spoken], which is "active military personnel."

14 The same entry is not made on the second line, which is what my

15 objection was based on, Your Honour. However, on the pro forma, the form

16 section, it does say that; however, in the handwritten entry, there is a

17 distinction between whether he was active or not.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask the witness. It is not a simple issue.

19 It is suggested, Ms. Mahindaratne, that you precisely point to the

20 witness what the portion is, what it says, and what your question is.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

22 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, let me draw your attention to paragraph 21, which

23 reads: "Service during the war."

24 Now, this is a unit identified as 9125/33, and then it says "from

25 3rd August 1995 to 7th September 1995."

Page 3121

1 Now could you explain to the Trial Chamber as to what that record

2 indicates from what you know, based on your experience in the military?

3 A. I can. You see the military post office box 9125/33, and it is

4 indicated that I was a participant in active operations as part of the

5 4th Split Brigade in the period indicated. That's when I received the

6 commendation to receive a medal, as Mr. Misetic mentioned, from the

7 Dubrovnik theatre of war; whereas, at that time, I was a member of the

8 113th Brigade. So it must have been a mistake in record keeping.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... may I just to interrupt.

10 Can you just indicate, don't go into all those details, what does that

11 entry indicate? What does it mean? Just go by exactly what is stated

12 there, if you could explain to the Trial Chamber.

13 A. Item 21 reflects the period during which I participated in the

14 homeland war in military post 9125/33. You asked me about item 21.

15 Correct?

16 Q. That's correct. Now, do the dates, 3rd August 1995 to 7th

17 September 1995, correspond to the time you served in the 113th Sibenik

18 Brigade during Operation Storm?

19 A. Yes, fully correspond.

20 Q. Now, on the same page at paragraph 24, under "Judicial

21 punishments," there are no entries there. Is that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Generally, if a soldier had to be apprehended by a military

24 police for not reporting to active duty, for example, what would be the

25 consequences?

Page 3122

1 A. I think there would be a court punishment, or rather, there would

2 be a prison term, and the person would be court martialed if that was the

3 position taken by the authorities of the Republic of Croatia, military

4 authorities.

5 Q. And if that happened would that -- would that court order or

6 judicial proceedings be recorded in these records?

7 A. Absolutely, they would be recorded.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender this document

9 in evidence.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

11 MR. MISETIC: No objections.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

13 Mr. Registrar.

14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P198, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Let me just give a

16 decision on this.

17 P198 is admitted into evidence.

18 Please proceed.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call document number 1D22-0348.

20 Q. Now, while that is being brought up, Mr. Gojanovic, in the

21 document we just looked at, the unit you served in during the period

22 3rd August 1995 to 7th September 1995 is identified by the digits

23 "9125/33." That is correct, isn't it?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Now, what we have before you on the screen is an order issued by

Page 3123

1 the minister of defence, Gojko Susak, dated 2nd August, 1995. That is an

2 order calling for full mobilisation of the 113th Sibenik Brigade on

3 2nd August, 1995. I appreciate you haven't seen this document, but can

4 you confirm that that's the case?

5 A. Yes. That's what it says there, and it is correct.

6 Q. Now, do you note, under paragraph 1, the 113th Sibenik Brigade is

7 identified by the minister of defence by the digits assigned to the unit

8 which is RP 9125 (113 HV Brigade, Sibenik).

9 Do you note that?

10 A. Yes, I can see that.

11 Q. And that is the same number in which, in P198, you're recorded as

12 serving from 3rd August 1995 to 7th September 1995?

13 A. Yes.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I tender this document in evidence,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic?

17 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No objection from any of the Defence counsel.

19 Mr. Registrar.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P199, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: P199 is admitted into evidence.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document 1D22-0355.

23 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, your testimony was that after a period of duty in

24 Donji Srb, you requested for demobilisation; and, in fact, when you

25 questioned by the Bench, you said that you had been in active duty for a

Page 3124

1 period of a little over a month.

2 Do you recall saying that the Bench?

3 A. Correct. That's what I said.

4 Q. Now, I appreciate you may not have seen this document or you may

5 have seen this document. This is the demobilisation order signed and

6 sealed by Commander Danijel Kotlar, dated 30th August, and that is the

7 commander of the 113th Sibenik Brigade?

8 A. Yes, that is the document.

9 Q. Have you seen this document before?

10 A. No.

11 Q. It reads: "Subject: Termination of mobilisation," and it goes

12 on: "We would like to inform you that we have terminated the

13 mobilisation of the military conscript Vladimir, son of Matte Gojanovic,

14 born 1972, soldier from the 3rd Infantry Battalion, of the 113th Infantry

15 Brigade of the HV, in reference to the decision on demobilisation of

16 certain HV units by the Ministry of Defence."

17 The next paragraph reads: "In the HV, as of 3 August 1995 to

18 7 September 1995, signed and sealed, Commander Danijel Kotlar."

19 Now, this is what you were talking about right along on Friday,

20 wasn't it?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. And you are being granted your demobilisation from the

23 3rd Battalion of the 113th Sibenik Brigade, in consequence of a decision

24 for demobilisation of certain HV units by the Ministry of Defence. That

25 is correct, isn't it?

Page 3125

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. There is no record of you not having reported to active duty and

3 being apprehended by the military police in this record is there?

4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object, first of all, to

5 the leading. Second of all, Ms. Mahindaratne is fully aware that the

6 document to the military police is issued four or five days after the

7 date of the document here, so how that could be -- there is no reference

8 to the document that didn't appear until five days after this document

9 was created is, I think, is a bit illogical and misleads the witness.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that question and rephase,

11 Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.


14 Q. Now, this document is it dated 30th August, and you're granted

15 your demobilisation as of 7th September, 1995. That's correct, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, do you recall you were shown a document by the Defence which

18 was purported to be request sent by Commander Kotlar on

19 3rd September 1995 to the 72nd Battalion of the military police,

20 requesting that certain soldiers, personnel be apprehended which included

21 your name.

22 Do you recall that? You were shown that document?

23 A. Yes, yes. I remember the document, and I have said that I have

24 never seen it before and that I consider it non-existent.

25 Q. Now, that document was sated 3rd September 1995. So this

Page 3126

1 document before you is dated 30th August, and your demobilisation is on

2 7th August [sic]. So if, in fact, that document was issued, it was

3 issued in between these two dates --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, if you have --

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. I withdraw that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: If we have to compare dates, this Chamber is able to

7 count from one to ten and even to 30 if needed.

8 So, therefore, these are the kind of questions --

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: [Overlapping speakers] ... I will withdraw --

10 JUDGE ORIE: -- I mean, you are obviously asking for conclusions

11 which the Chamber is perfectly able to make. Apart from that,

12 demobilisation, I take it that you wanted to refer to the 7th of

13 September.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I thought that's what I said, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You said 7th of August, and that's how it appears in

16 the transcript.

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that last question, Your Honour,

18 and I apologise.

19 MR. MISETIC: Well, just for the convenience of the Court, and

20 because it was our error in not having the signature page of the document

21 that she is now referencing, we can put it in Sanction with the seal and

22 signature page, if counsel wishes, just for the record, to use with this

23 witness.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I would not call for that document,

25 Mr. President. So, at this stage --

Page 3127

1 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, if we're talking about

2 originals and about stamps signatures, especially with the present

3 situation, it might be a good idea to have as much copies of originals.

4 The same, by the way, would be true, Mr. Misetic, for the long list

5 because I see that there is, although it is signed for being a truthful

6 copy, it certainly is a transcribed copy, the long list of the soldiers

7 in the 113th Brigade, because I see in the similar last page, that it is

8 not entirely clear to me. Usually, if a document is signed and if you

9 make a copy of it, you don't add to that copy that there is a signature,

10 because you see that usually. Now, here we see both. I'm talking about

11 the long list of those who served on the 113th and were opposed for being

12 or receiving --

13 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... I don't have the hard

14 copy with me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a look at it, I would like to see the --

16 MR. MISETIC: If could you now explain to me what the issue is,

17 Your Honour, I apologise.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We see that there a cover page to a long list,

19 in which I have not checked that yet, but where apparently the name of

20 this witness does not appear. Then in the English copy -- no, not in the

21 English copy. At the last page, we find that on the 24th of August,

22 2006, this was declared to be a certified copy of the original. Yes?

23 You see that with the stamp [B/C/S spoken].

24 Now, if you look at the previous page, yes, where we have the

25 last portion of the names, yes?

Page 3128


2 JUDGE ORIE: Now, at the bottom there, we find both signatures

3 and a statement that it is his signature. I would like to see that in

4 the original because it is not --

5 MR. MISETIC: Yes. We have it. I can put it in sanction for you

6 right now. It is part --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the original?

8 MR. MISETIC: Yes. It is in e-court, Your Honour. Right?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether that is the original, that is exactly

10 my question: Whether this is the most original version of this document.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, are we referring to D190 or 191.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm referring to the long list, 735 pages.

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: 191, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ORIE: 191, yes.

16 MR. MISETIC: Yes. We have it. On the second-to-last page is

17 the original -- actually, the last page of the original document, which

18 has both the seal and signatures of both Mr. Cupic and Commander Kotlar;

19 and then the next page is simply the seal from the archive of the

20 Croatian state that it is authentic to the original in the archive.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. You say this is the most original version of

22 that document that does exist.

23 MR. MISETIC: Except for the original in the Croatian state

24 archive, yes.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Which, looking at it, would give exactly the same --

Page 3129

1 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I'm not sure -- if there is any question as

2 to authenticity --

3 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know. The numbering is not always

4 complete. I was putting this question to you because often if you

5 transcribe an original, you say signature, whereas, on the original, you

6 just see the signature.

7 MR. MISETIC: Which is there on the original.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We see here both, it appears. We see a signature

9 and the word "signature."

10 MR. MISETIC: In the Croatian document?

11 JUDGE ORIE: I see "Potpis," which stands for --

12 MR. MISETIC: I don't have that, Your Honour. I have a signature

13 line. Underneath, it says "signature" for where to sign, and there's a

14 signature on it. It says "Potpis."

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then it could be --

16 MR. MISETIC: The English is a translation obviously of the

17 original with the seal.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I will have a further look at it and see whether any

19 question remains, yes or no. I might come back to you. Yes. You say it

20 says "signature" for where to sign.

21 MR. MISETIC: It says -- literally, it says "Potpis."


23 MR. MISETIC: I just want to make sure we're looking at the same

24 document.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We see here. The reason we're asking is sometimes

Page 3130

1 you have a document where you just see a signature. Sometime, if a

2 document is transcribed, you see written the word "signature." Here,

3 both appear, which could mean that this -- that the word "Potpis" here

4 means where to put the signature --

5 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... correct. That's what --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's your interpretation of the document.

7 MR. MISETIC: Okay. I mean, that is our interpretation, yes,

8 Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That is clear to me.

10 MR. MISETIC: Okay.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'm a bit -- yes, it's the original.

12 Let's move on, Ms. Mahindaratne.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Gojanovic, if a soldier is mobilised and he did not

15 report to active duty, would he be able to obtain an order for

16 demobilisation, as far as you're concerned, as far as you know?

17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the leading of

18 the question. She's saying he obtained an order for demobilisation. The

19 document, itself, references that fact that pursuant to an order of the

20 Ministry of Defence, there are many demobilisations going on, of which

21 there is an order for demobilisation. But saying he obtained the order,

22 I think, puts words in the document that are not there and from our

23 position is also inaccurate.

24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Let me just remove the word "obtained," then,

25 Mr. President.

Page 3131

1 JUDGE ORIE: Or refer, perhaps, to the document the witness

2 brought here, which says something about demobilisation as well. That at

3 least is a document the witness has brought to us.


5 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, according to your -- the records you brought which

6 were tendered to Court directly from here, there was a record that your

7 service was between 3rd August 1995 and 7th September 1995.

8 Now, can you tell Court what that is? What is that document that

9 you brought to the Court.

10 A. That's my military service booklet that has records of all facts

11 pertaining to a soldier who serves in the Croatian army.

12 Q. Now, the dates indicated, the 3rd August 1995 to

13 7th September 1995, are the exact dates as set out in this document?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, is there any possibility that the

15 witness is answering on the basis of his military booklet, where, from

16 what I remember, I do not see that date, and that your question was about

17 another document which was not his military booklet. That is the

18 document dated the 3rd of September, 1999?

19 If not, then please tell us where we find the second date, and

20 also perhaps the first one, in his military booklet.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It is not the military booklet I was referring

22 to, Mr. President. You're correct. He was referring to the military

23 booklet. Let me just take him right to the document.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


Page 3132

1 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, I'm referring to your certificate. Do you have a

2 document --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we put it on the ELMO.

4 Mr. Usher, could you put this document on the ELMO.

5 I take it, Ms. Mahindaratne, that you would like to talk about

6 this one.

7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, you could first ask how the witness

9 obtained this document.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I'm just trying to see if

11 the previous document was tendered into evidence.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was not.

13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It was not.

14 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, how did you obtain this document?

15 A. This is my personal document that I received from the military

16 department. It is authentic. It is a copy of the original, which I have

17 in my records at home.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

19 A. As for the current period of time --

20 Q. Please try to confine your response to my question.

21 Now what is this document? Can you tell the Trial Chamber,

22 briefly, what this document is, just to give the identity of this

23 document.

24 A. This is a certificate of participating in the homeland war during

25 a certain period of time. It was issued by military department of the

Page 3133

1 Ministry of Interior -- or rather, Ministry of Defence of the Republic of

2 Croatia, and it is an authentic document.

3 Q. Could you just read that first paragraph which starts with what

4 you read.

5 Can you read that out, Mr. Gojanovic? Can you read out the first

6 paragraph of that document?

7 A. All right. "Certificate confirming that Vladimir Gojanovic," and

8 then my personal citizen's number, "born on 25th of February, 1972, in

9 Sibenik, residing" and then my address in Sibenik, "participated in the

10 Defence of sovereignty of the Republic of Croatia, in this sense of

11 Article 2, paragraph 1 and 2, on the Law on The Rights of Croatian

12 Defenders from Homeland War, dated 3rd of August 1995 to 7th of

13 September, 1995."

14 Q. And those are the dates recorded in the previous document that we

15 just looked at, 3rd August 1995 to 7th September 1995?

16 A. [No interpretation]

17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I could not tender the previous document in

18 evidence. That was 1D22-0355, which was Commander Kotlar's order dated

19 30th August for demobilisation of the witness.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

21 MR. MISETIC: No objection.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I see no objections from any of the Defence teams.

23 Mr. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. That becomes Exhibit P200.

25 JUDGE ORIE: P200 is admitted into evidence. Could we leave that

Page 3134

1 document for a while.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move into private session for a second.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3135

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 3136

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

3 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: While we're on the documents that you brought

5 to Court, may I also ask the registrar to take military book -- booklet,

6 to the witness. Then if you could turn to --

7 JUDGE ORIE: We have two military booklets, the old one and the

8 new one.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The new one, Mr. President.

10 If you could turn to the new one and page 21.

11 Q. Now, there --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, before we spend a lot of time, do

13 all parties agree that the same number that we discussed before appears

14 there, together with Sibenik, Slime, Jadrija, because that's, I think --

15 and that is the place where he is urgently called to be mobilised, and it

16 is without a date?

17 MR. MISETIC: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Everyone agrees on that.

19 Ms. Mahindaratne, the number is corresponding; no date, place.

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We can combine that with the remainder of the

22 evidence, unless there is any specific reason why --

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I just want to point out

24 the number 9125/33, which relates to the 13th Sibenik Brigade.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... That's what I said. Yes.

Page 3137

1 Whether it relates to the Sibenik Brigade is another matter, but the

2 numbers are the same and the word "Sibenik" appears.

3 Of course, we have not yet translations. Mr. Registrar, could we

4 request for CLSS that these documents are translated, the documents which

5 have not yet received a number. That's the full set or was it? What was

6 it? Yes, it was C2.

7 A request should be sent to CLSS to have C2 translated, and here

8 again, pages entirely without entries and having same format do not have

9 to be translated 17 times, if the translation then could just mention

10 that another eight, ten, or 12 pages, same format, without entries

11 appear.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: For the reasons expressed earlier by Mr. Misetic, C2

14 is admitted into evidence, under seal.

15 Ms. Mahindaratne.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I just wanted to point out that

17 P199, actually the letter from the Defence minister, in fact identifies

18 the Sibenik Brigade as "9125."

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, without "- 33."

20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not exactly the same, but it comes close

22 to it.

23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Moving on, may I call for document 1D22-0145,

24 please.

25 Q. Now, you testified, Mr. Gojanovic, that you were awarded a medal

Page 3138

1 in 2000 for your participation in Operation Storm; but that since the

2 citation indicated that the participation was for the 4th Guards Brigade,

3 you did not accept it. Do you recall saying that on Friday?

4 A. Yes. That's exactly what I said.

5 Q. Is this the citation you were referring to?

6 This is dated 27 July 2000, and you are being awarded a medal for

7 Operation Storm. It reads: "For active participation in the preparation

8 and execution of the military police Operation Storm, within that

9 August 1995, for the liberation of Northern Dalmacija, Lika, Kordun, and

10 Banja."

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I tender this in evidence, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?

14 MR. MISETIC: It says for his participation in the 4th Guards

15 Brigade, and we have no objection, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat it. It does not appear

17 completely.

18 MR. MISETIC: She's read out a portion, and did not read out that

19 he got the medal for his participation in Operation Storm as a member of

20 the 4th Guards Brigade, and it is dated 27 July 2000, so almost five

21 years after the fact.

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I did read the date of the document.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It also does not literally what you say. It gives a

24 name, and it mentioned 4th Guards Brigade. Whether that was at the time

25 of his separation, the place where he was still part of, that is not

Page 3139

1 entirely clear yet. But it is clear that on this document, it appears

2 next to the name, 4th Guards Brigade.

3 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I believe we can stipulate that after

4 Operation Storm, 7 September 1995, he was not a participant in the

5 Croatian army.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So that means that the puzzle is not yet resolved.

7 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: If I may point out that the medal is awarded

9 for his active participation and preparation and execution on the

10 military police Operation Storm. And, within brackets, August 1995, the

11 citation clearly indicates for what period.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I see exactly what you want to emphasise

13 and what Mr. Misetic prefers to emphasise. I'm afraid that the Chamber

14 has not yet anything to emphasise at this moment.

15 Please proceed.

16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think that

17 document was not given a P number.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit P201.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P201 is admitted into evidence.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me again look at this document in detail.

23 It seems that the English translation suggests that the numbers perhaps

24 1 to 311 are left out, and that the numbers 313 and following do not

25 appear anymore. It is bracket, dot, dot, dot, bracket; whereas, I cannot

Page 3140

1 see that in the original one. At the same time, it would not come as a

2 surprise that the original would list all of the decorated soldiers.

3 Therefore, here again the question arises: Is this the original, the

4 most original, possible.

5 You do not know, Mr. Misetic? You do not know, Ms. Mahindaratne?

6 It adds to the puzzle.

7 Please proceed.


9 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, can you -- based on the documents we've seen, your

10 demobilisation papers indicate you as having served the period

11 3rd August to 7th September in the 113th Sibenik Brigade; whereas, there

12 is an indication in this citation -- actually, there is an reference to

13 the 4th Guards Brigade. Can you offer an explanation as to this

14 discrepancy?

15 A. I can. I received a decoration for Operation Storm. I was

16 awarded -- in fact, I have to correct myself. I was offered a decoration

17 by the commander of the 4th Split Brigade, Damir Krsticevic, and that

18 paper I received just after the completion of Operation Storm in 2000.

19 A proclamation was published, giving me a decoration for the

20 liberation of Dalmacija, Kordun, Lika, and Banja, but I did not accept

21 the decoration because I had, in fact, participated in liberating the

22 terrain as part of the 113th Sibenik Brigade. I thought it unjustified

23 and improper to receive a medal for something I did not participate in.

24 Q. Now, did you raise this issue with any of the HV authorities, the

25 fact that this is an discrepancy with regard to the citation?

Page 3141

1 A. No. I did not raise that at all because I was angry with the

2 shoddiness of the bureaucracy which was completely disorderly and

3 chaotic. And to this day, I did not collect any medal for Operation

4 Storm.

5 Q. Can you --

6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I withdraw that, Mr. President. Can I call

7 for document 1D02-0357.

8 Q. Now, your testimony was that on 4th August, in Pavasovici, one of

9 your colleagues was hit by a bullet and killed.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm referring to paragraph 6 of his 2005

11 statement, P194.

12 Q. With regard to that issue, the Defence, on Friday, showed you a

13 document, for the record D194, which was a report from Commander Kotlar

14 dated 11 August 1995, according to which the soldier who was killed in

15 Pavasovici on 4th August, namely, Boris Garma, had been killed as a

16 result of a mortar mine, in fact, two metres from where he was.

17 Do you recall the fact that Defence counsel pointed out to you

18 that your version of events differed, in fact, from what was recorded by

19 Commander Kotlar? Do you recall that on Friday Defence counsel pointed

20 this out to you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 A. Yes, I remember that.

24 Q. Now, what we have on the screen here is a report sent to the

25 Split military district by the assist commander for political department

Page 3142

1 of the 3rd Battalion of the 113th Sibenik Brigade, Lieutenant Borislav

2 Slavica, and it is dated 5th August. It relates to the circumstances of

3 the killing of the soldier, Boris Garma, on 4th August.

4 Do you note that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... to this document, in the

7 fifth line, it is reported that: "The soldier was hit by a Browning

8 12.7-millimetre, and remained dead on the spot."

9 Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that consistent with your testimony, or do you find anywhere

12 in this report any reference to a mortar mine impacting near the soldier?

13 A. Yes. This bit concerning ammunition is consistent with my

14 testimony.

15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I wish to tender this document

16 in evidence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.

18 Mr. Registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P202.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, P202 is admitted into evidence.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call document number 1D22-302 -- 0302.

22 Q. While the document is being brought up, do you recall,

23 Mr. Gojanovic, on Friday, you were shown two documents by Mr. Misetic,

24 one by General Gotovina and the other by Brigadier-General Kotlar, being

25 ordered to stop illegal activities.

Page 3143

1 Do you recall being shown the documents? I'm not referring to

2 the documents on the screen, but you were shown two other documents on

3 the screen. Do you recall that?

4 A. Yes. I remember all the documents that have been shown to me by

5 Counsel Misetic.

6 Q. Then Mr. Misetic asked you if you considered the instance when

7 Commander Kotlar shouted from his vehicle at the soldiers, as an order to

8 stop looting and torching; and you responded in the affirmative.

9 Do you recall that?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. Now I appreciate you may not have seen this document. Obviously,

12 you have not seen this document, but this is a report from chief of the

13 security information service of the Ministry of Defence, Colonel Ante

14 Gucic; and the information goes to the defence minister and the Croatian

15 reporting service. It is dated 8 August 1995.

16 And in paragraph, it is recorded as this: "In the liberated

17 areas of hinterlands of Zadar and Sibenik, the establishment of the

18 civilian authorities is not being carried out in a satisfactory pace.

19 More precisely, in the liberated settlements Bribirske, Mostine,

20 Djeverske, and Kistanje, the situation is rather chaotic. Incidents of

21 mass burnings of houses, plundering of property, alcohol consumption

22 occur, and the units lack organisation. The reason for such a situation

23 is the insufficient engagement of the command personnel of the units."

24 Now, is that report consistent with your own observations at the

25 time?

Page 3144

1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, again, this is misleading the witness.

2 She takes a report from the 8th of August. The two orders I showed him

3 were from the 10th of August and the 12th of August from Commander

4 Kotlar. So, to then --

5 JUDGE ORIE: We do know yet what her question is.

6 MR. MISETIC: She asked the question. She asked: Is this

7 consistent with your observations?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh yes, I see that.

9 MR. MISETIC: I believe it --

10 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you suggest that Ms. Mahindaratne breaks

11 down her question to whatever she wants to and specifically asks --

12 MR. MISETIC: She started off the question by reminding him that

13 he said that Commander Kotlar had given an oral order, and then asks

14 after showing this document whether that is consistent with his

15 observations. I'm not sure what she means by "observations." But if

16 that is what she is referring to, I think it is unfair to put it out of

17 time sequence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that it is unfair, it might easily

19 confuse the witness and the Chamber.

20 Please be precise in your questions.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. I was referring to the

22 incident of when Commander Kotlar shouted from the vehicle, which is what

23 counsel questioned the witness about, which did not have a time-frame,

24 Mr. President. There is no time-frame as to when --

25 JUDGE ORIE: At least the document gives a bit of a time-frame.

Page 3145

1 The question was too general: Does this and this mean what is you said,

2 what we read in the document, and we reed several things in the document.

3 Could you please rephrase.

4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very well, Mr. President.

5 Q. Now, let me actually take to your statement of 2005, P194, and if

6 you look at paragraph 20, Mr. Gojanovic. Could you just look at your

7 statement of 2005. It is in front of you, not on the screen, but you

8 have a hard copy there.

9 There you say this, and let me again just read it to you. Have

10 you found the paragraph?

11 A. Which page?

12 Q. Paragraph 20, about two lines down, third line: "I'm not aware

13 of Commander Kotlar taking any disciplinary measures against any men from

14 his brigade in relation to the looting and burning that was going on. At

15 no time during all the time while I was involved in Operation Oluja, up

16 until the time when I asked to be demobilised, was I or any of the other

17 soldiers in my battalion told that the looting, burning, and other crimes

18 had to stop. I never saw an order that related to the stopping of

19 criminal activities by members of the Croatian armed forces."

20 Now, in the report, which is on your screen, it's recorded as

21 this: "Incidents of mass burnings of houses, plundering of property,

22 alcohol consumption occur, and the units lack organisation. The reason

23 for such a situation is the insufficient engagement of the command

24 personnel of the units."

25 Now, is that consistent with what --

Page 3146

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.

2 Have you seen this document before, Witness? Have you seen this

3 document before?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document on the screen? No, I

5 didn't.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes? No.

7 Now, Ms. Mahindaratne, do you think that if the witness testified

8 about burning houses, and if we find burning houses in a document which

9 the witness has never seen before, whether the Chamber would be in a

10 position to say, Well, at least whether true or not, whether testimony

11 true, whether document true, both of them are talking about burning

12 houses; and to that extent, it seems that it's consistent. But even when

13 I have not been there at that time, I can see that, isn't it?

14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I respond, Mr. President.


16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: My point was, Mr. President, that while

17 Mr. Misetic tried to demonstrate there were orders, in fact, to stop the

18 criminal activity, in fact there is a record from within the institution

19 which indicates to the contrary, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: It is perfectly clear. The same is true for

21 Mr. Misetic. Mr. Misetic has shown documents which apparently are not

22 fully consistent with the testimony of the witness. Now, it could that

23 be the testimony of the witness is inaccurate, that the orders are

24 inaccurate. We do not know, but they seem not to be consistent.

25 Even if the witness said not one word about that, looking at the

Page 3147

1 document, hearing his testimony, it is obvious there was an

2 inconsistently. That is true for Mr. Misetic, and that is true for your

3 questions as well.

4 MR. MISETIC: For the record, I will make an objection as to what

5 she is using the document for. It is, again, unfair and misleading to

6 then not go into the next paragraph, which defeats - again, I don't want

7 to be argumentative - or which sheds further light on the very assertion

8 that she wishes to put the witness as being consistent with her

9 statement. So if we're going to talk about orders, she needs to put the

10 entire document to the witness then.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the question that could come out of that

12 is still something that the Chamber, of course, can see. It might be

13 that the traditional common law procedural approach in how you get

14 information to a jury plays a part here. Perhaps, a jury should be

15 averted that there may be some inconsistency, but here of course the

16 witness sees the document for the firs, the Chamber see it is for the

17 first time.

18 So whether it is consistent or inconsistent is, I would say,

19 rather obvious. That is one thing. Second, if you are seeking an

20 explanation for that, or if the witness could add something to that, or

21 whether the witness is aware of any intentional or by mistake bad

22 reporting, or whether the witness might have had a bad recollection when

23 answering the questions, that's all fine. But the consistency and

24 inconsistency appears from the testimony itself and the document.

25 Ms. Mahindaratne, how much time would you still need?

Page 3148

1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Just about five minutes at the most,

2 Mr. President, but would not ask any further questions on this document.

3 May I tender it in evidence.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Objections?

5 MR. MISETIC: No objection, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar, that would be.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P203, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In the absence of objections by any of the

9 teams, Exhibit P203 is admitted into evidence.

10 If you could, please, wrap up as soon as possible, so that we can

11 have a break and release the witness.

12 MR. MISETIC: Will I be allowed to redirect -- recross, I mean?

13 I'm sorry.

14 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need for that?

15 MR. MISETIC: Less then ten minutes -- less then 15.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We will have to do that, then, after the break.

17 Ms. Mahindaratne, if you would finish your re-examination --

18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, can I do it after the break?

19 JUDGE ORIE: No. Let's try to finish within the next three to

20 four minutes with your remaining questions; otherwise, it is split up.

21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can I call up document 862, please; that is,

22 65 ter number 862.

23 Q. I appreciate, Mr. Gojanovic, that you probably not have seen this

24 document, but you were questioned today on behalf of Mr. Cermak's Defence

25 on the factory in Kistanje. And by this document, Mr. Cermak authorises

Page 3149

1 and entry into a factory.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know which factory that is? Is that one of the factories

4 in Kistanje?

5 A. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know whether that is the factory.

6 Q. This is dated 14 August 1995. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what's written.

8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I tender this document in evidence,

9 Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm just trying to understand what we're

11 talking about. This is a document apparently signed by Mr. Cermak where,

12 on the 14th of August, he gives an authorisation to the Dalmacija Cement,

13 which just looking at the name might be a cement company, to give

14 authorisation to enter the premises of Knin Kips [phoen], which appears

15 to be in are similar area of economical activity because it has been a

16 part of Dalmacija Cement for 20 years. Whether this is any of the -- is

17 there any suggestion that this is one of the factories that we earlier

18 about.

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. This is another document.

20 This is to demonstrate that Mr. Cermak did exercise certain amount of

21 control over the factories and properties in the area, and that goes to

22 the issue about on which the witness testified about Cermak's people

23 removing goods from factories.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. While I've perfectly understood what you said,

25 that therefore I read the content of this document in quite some detail

Page 3150

1 because this is what the document says. What Ms. Mahindaratne has said

2 about it is her conclusions apparently on the basis of this document.

3 Therefore, I ask whether there was any direct relation to the factories

4 we discussed earlier. This is on the mind of Ms. Mahindaratne. I don't

5 know whether there is any need to express what's in your mind,

6 Ms. Higgins.

7 MS. HIGGINS: I would like to briefly, given that

8 Ms. Mahindaratne has expressed what's on hers, because it has absolutely

9 no relevance at all, Firstly, to the factory in Kistanje issue; but,

10 secondly, this document was one that, in fact, I was going do use with

11 the witness. I chose not to because it doesn't relate specifically to

12 Kistanje. But what it does do is show a role that Mr. Cermak had to try

13 and assist companies who owned or who managed companies prior to

14 Operation Storm to access the buildings, as you can see, to provide for

15 their own security. So it's nothing to do with looting.

16 So I make those comments, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Higgins, by the way, I summarized this document.

18 You might have already have noticed that proper attention was given to

19 the exact text of this document; also that it belonged to a firm before,

20 and for that reason was given access.

21 Well, you have now both expressed your mind. The Chamber is

22 informed about what is on your mind, but the Chamber is, first of all,

23 about what is in the document.

24 Any further questions?

25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: One last question, Mr. President.

Page 3151

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one last question.


3 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, it was suggested to you that just one month prior

4 to your interview with the OTP, Office of the Prosecutor, you were

5 evicted from your office in Croatia.

6 Now, can you tell Court as to when you started collecting

7 material with regard to the interview you were seeking with Prosecutor

8 Del Ponte. When did you initially start collecting the material?

9 A. I can't tell you the exact date when we started collecting

10 evidence --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. -- underlying the documents we provided to the OTP, but it was a

13 long, long time before the eviction.

14 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, if you could just give the year. I'm not asking

15 for the date, just the year.

16 A. Well, I think it must have been not less than two or three years

17 prior to the eviction, a long time.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That concludes the re-examination,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Witness. I apologise to the

22 interpreters and the transcriber for not having taken a break earlier.

23 We will have a break until ten minutes past 12.00, and could I

24 inquire with the other parties whether they would need time for

25 re-examination as well.

Page 3152

1 One second please. I am first inquiring with the other parties.

2 MS. HIGGINS: Nothing further.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing further. Mr. Mikulicic, nothing further.

4 Mr. Misetic?

5 MR. MISETIC: I will have --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Still 15 minutes.

7 MR. MISETIC: Hopefully less time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If you could, yes, please, because then we could

9 have a reasonable amount of time with the next witness.

10 Mr. Gojanovic, you would like to say something? You may briefly

11 address me.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only wish to ask you

13 to ask one question of the Defence team, Mr. Misetic in particular, on my

14 behalf, please.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, usually the Chamber does not examine Defence

16 counsel. But if there's anything which is on your mind which troubles

17 you, you may not suggest to me that I put questions to the Defence teams;

18 but what is on your mind, what troubles you, you may tell us at the end

19 of your re-examination.

20 So, at the very end, you will have an opportunity to add to your

21 testimony what you like to add.

22 We'll have a break until ten minutes past 1.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 1.13 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, please proceed.

Page 3153

1 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

3 Q. Mr. Gojanovic, I'd like to ask you to take a look at the picture

4 that is in Sanction right now. It should be on your screen.

5 Do you see a picture of yourself there?

6 A. [No interpretation]

7 Q. That's Mr. Petric to your left -- to your right and to left in

8 the picture?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If you could take a look at the medal your wearing on your upper

11 left hand part of your chest.

12 MR. MISETIC: If we could blow that up, please.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That is the Operation Oluja medal you received. Correct?

15 A. No, no. I didn't receive it.

16 Q. Are you wearing the Operation Oluja medal in that picture, sir.

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. Now, how did you come to wear the Operation Oluja medal?

19 A. I wore at the time the Oluja medal, just like my fellow soldiers;

20 and when the eviction took place, I wanted to show solidarity with The

21 Association of Croatian Demobilised Defenders, especially being the

22 president of that association.

23 Q. My question is, sir: You've testified, I believe on Friday, and

24 you testified now within the last hour, about how you never took the

25 Oluja medal because you were -- it had a false certificate that you were

Page 3154

1 a participant in the 4th Guards Brigade. Now we have a picture of you

2 wearing the Oluja medal, and I would like to know specifically did you

3 accept the Oluja medal for participation in Operation Storm?

4 A. Officially, I did not accept the Oluja medal because I received

5 it from the 4th Split Brigade, and I did not participate it in during

6 Operation Storm.

7 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I don't want to be argumentative with

8 the witness.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for it, Mr. Misetic, by using the words

10 "whether you accepted it." You can ask: Did you receive it? Is this

11 your copy? Is this your medal, then why did you wear it?

12 This is the one you received from your, I think, supreme

13 commander. It is your supreme commander who grants the medal, isn't it?

14 Is this the one that you received.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... this, then?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That is it not the medal.

18 This the medal I received from my fellow soldiers who put it on my chest,

19 so that I could protect the dignity of my association when we were

20 evicted by a political party.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you used someone else's medal --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- in order to underline what you wanted to express

24 at that time.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

Page 3155

1 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I'd ask that this be marked and we

2 will upload it into e-court, and I will tender it when it is uploaded.

3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Perhaps, you could give it already a

5 number, Mr. Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This becomes Exhibit D216,

7 marked for identification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, if you would please verify, once

9 uploaded, that D216 is this photograph, and then it is already admitted

10 into evidence, if it is the same.

11 Please proceed.

12 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Mr. Registrar, if I could ask you to call up P198, please and if

14 we could go to the next page, please.

15 Q. Sir, if you could look at number 24, Ms. Mahindaratne asked you

16 some questions about judicial punishments, what would happen if you

17 hadn't shown up. You said you would get court martialed, perhaps serve

18 some time in prison.

19 Your record also doesn't reflect any judicial punishments for any

20 disciplinary measures that you incurred for abandoning your unit four

21 times between 1993 and 1994. Correct?

22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may, what is indicated

23 there is judicial punishments, and Mr. Misetic is referring to the

24 disciplinary measures, you know, of those documents that were tendered in

25 evidence during cross-examination.

Page 3156

1 MR. MISETIC: She opened the issue up, Your Honour. Now the same

2 issue occurred in September of 1995; and now, suddenly, she doesn't think

3 it should be in that section. If she will stipulate to that fact, that's

4 fine with me.

5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That was not my point. My point was that

6 judicial punishments and disciplinary measures, there is a difference --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's keep it quite simple. Apparently, this form

8 doesn't say or doesn't give any entry there, neither about disciplinary

9 nor any judicial matter. Some of the decisions I have to check whether

10 it was disciplinary punishment, but at least the salary to be reduced

11 either for one-month percentage, sometimes for two months, has been put

12 to the witness --

13 MR. MISETIC: [Overlapping speakers] ... and prison time. He was

14 sentenced to three days in jail as well, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, we will consider that all in

16 commendation.

17 MR. MISETIC: I had one question just to tie this up.

18 Q. The question was simply: Do you recall ever being court

19 martialed for abandoning your unit in the years 1993 or 1994?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Turning to my next area, Mr. Gojanovic, you produced a document

22 to us, that was discussed again with Ms. Mahindaratne, signed by Milan

23 Rupic, about your mobilisation in August of 1995.

24 My question to you is: How did Mr. Rupic know whether or not you

25 participated in Operation Storm? Was he a witness to your participation?

Page 3157

1 A. Forgive me for objecting, but your question has no meaning

2 because it has to do with the Ministry of Defence of Croatia, which is

3 the only relevant body for --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gojanovic, if you just answer the question. If

5 it is meaningless question, then that goes quickest and the Chamber will

6 find out. May I take it --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, may I answer.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milan Rupic signed this document.

10 He doesn't need to know whether I participated or not. He simply goes

11 along with the records kept at the Ministry of Defence.


13 Q. Actually, he is a person in Sibenik, correct, at the defence

14 office in Sibenik?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. And my last question to you, sir, is: You were asked as the last

17 question by Ms. Mahindaratne about when you began to prepare the file

18 that you eventually turned over to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2004.

19 I believe your answer was two or three years earlier.

20 Did you begin to prepare this file sometime around after

21 Mr. Petric was released from prison?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

Page 3158

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza was one or more questions for you.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE GWAUNZA: If I could take you back to your first statement,

5 paragraph 10, where you made reference to very young soldiers who are

6 about to set fire to a house in which an elderly women was.

7 Could I ask you what you meant by "very young"?

8 A. That means they were somewhere around 18 or 19 years of age.

9 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes. Thank you. That's all I wanted to ask.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Since the other Judges have no further questions to

11 you, this concludes your evidence in this court. May I take that the

12 question of Judge Gwaunza has not triggered any need for further

13 questions.

14 Yes. You would like to add and I promised to give you an

15 opportunity to add whatever you'd like to add. This Chamber is

16 interested in facts you observed, heard, saw, not in opinions.

17 Please tell us what is still bothering you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I provided my photograph from the

19 military ID to the Court; and in that photograph, I am slimmer. I have

20 about 30 kilos less, and I would like to put a question to

21 Counsel Misetic.

22 Is it possible --

23 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... questions to

24 Counsel Misetic. You are not in a position to put questions to counsel.

25 It is the other way around, that counsel can put questions to you.

Page 3159

1 Thirty kilos less, that is what I'm talking about as well.

2 Tell us what the relevance of this photograph? Which photograph

3 was it? The one that we saw on the screen, or one from your military

4 booklet where the photo on the old one is missing?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, that is the

6 photograph from my military ID, and it was taken with me wearing a

7 military uniform, when I was mobilised.

8 My question, if I may put it, has to do with --


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?


12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is it possible that statements of

13 soldiers from Operation Storm on Sonkovici-Gracac axis were given, under

14 political pressure, the direct suggestion of Vladimir Vujanovic as

15 chairman, president of The Croatian of War Veterans.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Whether this is possible or not is a -- usually

17 possibilities, it is not easy to exclude for possibilities whatever has

18 happen, but whether that is a relevant question for the Chamber. If the

19 Chamber receives any documents, statements, just for your information, is

20 that the statements that were put to you have been marked for

21 identification. That means that whether this Chamber will consider them

22 as to the truth of their content is still to be seen. So I'm just

23 explaining a procedural matter to you; that is, they are, as we call it,

24 MFI'd, marked for identification. That means that we know what they are,

25 no further decision has been taken, and it depends on future procedural

Page 3160

1 steps whether other decision would have to be taken.

2 If that answers more or less, may I say, your procedural inquiry,

3 then I would like to thank you for coming to The Hague, for answering all

4 the questions, even for trying to put additional questions. The Chamber

5 wishes you a safe trip home again.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please follow Madam Usher.

8 Mr. Russo, I see that you appear in this courtroom, which makes

9 me assume that you be the one who examines the next witness.

10 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Now I do understand that the witnesses have to

12 travel a long road in order to get into this courtroom.

13 Madam Usher, could you escort the next witness into the

14 courtroom. Meanwhile, I read a decision.

15 That is a decision -- well, it is not a decision, but reasons for

16 our decision. The Chamber's reasons for granting trial-related

17 protective measures for Witness 69.

18 On the 25th of April of this year, the Prosecution filed a motion

19 requesting that the Chamber order the trial-related protective measures

20 of pseudonym and face distortion for Witness 69.

21 On the 28th of April, 2008, the Gotovina Defence filed a

22 response, in which it did not oppose the request, but disagreed with the

23 Prosecution's arguments in support of a motion. The following day, the

24 Markac Defence filed a joinder to that response.

25 On the 13th of May 2008, the Chamber decided to grant the motion

Page 3161

1 with reasons to follow. This decision can be found at transcript page

2 2.694.

3 On the 1st of May 2008, the Chamber held, in its reasons for its

4 first protective measures decision in this case, that the party seeking

5 protective measures for a witness must demonstrate an objectively

6 grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or the witness's

7 family should it become known that the witness has given evidence before

8 this Tribunal. The mere expression of fear by a witness is insufficient

9 to justify protective measures. This standard can, for example, be

10 satisfied by showing that a threat was made against the witness or the

11 witness's family.

12 Witness 69, a Croatian Serb, lives with his family on his own

13 property in a Croatian village. The Chamber found that the expected

14 testimony of Witness 69 could antagonise certain persons. Furthermore,

15 Witness 69 was visited by a person from Sibenik, possibly a police

16 officer, last year. Another incident in which witnesses in this case

17 were visited by the Sibenik police were brought to the Chamber's

18 attention.

19 In that instance, the visiting police allegedly questioned the

20 witnesses about the statements they had given to the Prosecution for this

21 case, and said that the living relatives of those who been killed would

22 now blame the witnesses for the killings. The Chamber also received

23 information about other potential witnesses being approached by persons

24 claiming to be Croatian police and asked about this case.

25 For the aforementioned reasons, the Chamber finds that the

Page 3162

1 Prosecution has demonstrated an objectively grounded risk to the security

2 and welfare of Witness 69 should it become known that he has given

3 evidence before the Tribunal. That is sufficient to warrant the granting

4 of the requested protective measures which are of a nature to allow the

5 public to understand the substance of the testimony.

6 This concludes the Chamber's reason for its decision to grant

7 protective measures to Witness 69.

8 Madam Usher, could you please escort the next witness into the

9 courtroom.

10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Might I be excused, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You're excused, Ms. Mahindaratne.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Tchernetsky. I apologise that you

14 had to wait for such a long time, but we had to deal with the totality of

15 the testimony of previous witness. I hope that you'll understand this.

16 Mr. Tchernetsky, before you give evidence --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly understand.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

19 Evidence require you to make a -- require you to make a solemn

20 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

21 but the truth.

22 I may invite you to make that solemn declaration, of which the

23 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 3163


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tchernetsky.

4 Pleasing seated. You will first be examined by Mr. Russo, who is

5 counsel for the Prosecution.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Russo.

7 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President, and Your Honours. Good

8 afternoon.

9 Examination by Mr. Russo:

10 Q. Mr. Tchernetsky, would you please state your full name for the

11 record.

12 A. Alexander Tchernetsky.

13 Q. Thank you. And do you recall giving two statements to the ICTY,

14 one dated the 18th of May 2002, the other dated 6th December 2007?

15 A. Yes, I do recall.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 MR. RUSSO: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up 65 ter

18 number 4877 and 4878.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Two at the same time is a bit problematic,

20 Mr. Russo.

21 MR. RUSSO: Okay, Your Honour. In that case, I'll take them one

22 by one. If we could have the first page of the witness statement.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that you are referring to the May 2002

24 statement?

25 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour.

Page 3164

1 Q. Mr. Tchernetsky, do you recognise this as the statement that you

2 gave on 18 May 2002?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And is that statement true to the best of your knowledge?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Does that statement accurately reflect what you told the

7 investigators?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if you were examined on those same matters here today, would

10 your answers be the same as in that statement?

11 A. Yes, but bearing in mind the supplemental information that I

12 provided later.

13 Q. Yes, thank you. We'll move to that next.

14 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, Mr. President, if I could have 4877

15 moved into evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections. No objections. Then the

17 2002 statement is - let me just check - is to be assigned a number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P204, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And P204 is admitted into evidence.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. RUSSO: Thank you. If I could now have, Mr. Registrar,

22 please, document number 4878.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And that is the 6th of December 2007 statement.

24 MR. RUSSO: That is correct, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Tchernetsky, looking at the screen, do you recognise this as

Page 3165

1 the statement you gave on 6th December 2007?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that statement true to the best of your knowledge?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does that statement accurately reflect what you told the

6 investigators?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And, finally, if you were examined on those matters here in court

9 today, would your answers be the same as in that statement?

10 A. Yes, I would provide identical answers.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, Your Honours, on that basis, I would

13 move for admission of 4878.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it there are no objections.

15 No objections. Mr. Registrar, that would be number.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P205, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: P205 is admitted into evidence.

18 You've got seven minutes left, Mr. Russo.

19 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour. I will move as quickly as

20 possible.

21 If I could please provide hard copies to the witness.


23 MR. RUSSO: And, Your Honours, if I could be permitted to read

24 off a very brief summary.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you have explained to the

Page 3166

1 witness what the purpose of that is.

2 MR. RUSSO: I have, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please read it out.

4 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Tchernetsky was a United Nations Military

5 Observer in Sector South from late June until December of 1995. He was

6 assigned to UNMO Team Podkanje for the length of his assignment in Sector

7 South and became the team leader in October of 1995. Prior to Operation

8 Storm, he participated in daily patrols throughout Team Podkanje's area

9 of responsibility, investigated cease-fire violations by the warring

10 factions, and monitored the safety of the Croatian minorities living in

11 the Krajina.

12 When Croatian forces began shelling the area of Cetina in July of

13 1995, he and his fellow UNMOs provided an escort for the Serb civilian

14 harvesters in the Cetina area to protect them against further shelling.

15 He also personally experienced the shelling of Strmica by Croatian forces

16 in late July 1995. He was not present in Knin during Operation Storm

17 because he was on leave from approximately 2 to 8 August 1995.

18 In the weeks and months following Operation Storm, he continued

19 on patrols and witnessed acts of looting by HV soldiers and the burning

20 of houses throughout his team's area of responsibility. He also

21 participated in the comprehensive damage survey conducted by all the UNMO

22 teams after Operation Storm and assisted in negotiating the surrender of

23 a group of ARSK soldiers.

24 That concludes my summary, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

Page 3167


2 Q. Mr. Tchernetsky, I want to try to move quickly through this first

3 subject. Perhaps we can have it done.

4 I would like to discuss first the shelling of the Cetina area in

5 1995 and the special task that you received called Harvest.

6 And for the benefit, this is explained in his first statement.

7 That is 204 at page 2.

8 Mr. Tchernetsky, do you recall this incident?

9 A. I recall it.

10 Q. And in order to assist the Court, I would like you to please

11 locate the area of Cetina on one of the maps you provided.

12 MR. RUSSO: So, Mr. Registrar, if we could please pull up 65 ter

13 4880.

14 Q. Mr. Tchernetsky, do you recognise this map?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. Is it one of the maps that you provided to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor with your second statement?

18 A. Yes. This was my working map at the time, and I saved this copy

19 and I provided it to you.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would like to tender

22 the entire map as an exhibit and then I'm going to use an enlarged

23 portion of it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.

25 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Judge.

Page 3168

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, none of the other counsel jumps up.

2 No objections. Mr. Registrar, that would be ...

3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry -- Your Honour. The only

4 objection -- I don't have an objection. I just -- I guess if we get a

5 description of what this map is because it is very difficult to read.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we know what the original size of this map

7 is -- yes, that makes it easy to work on it rather than on such a screen.

8 Of course you can blow it up to some extent, but it depends on how

9 intensively we'll use it, but I take it that the witness will be taken to

10 explain what the markings on the map are.

11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes. If we could at least know where Knin is on

12 the map and then maybe use that as a reference.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I could already tell you where Knin is. That is

14 just above P14 and P14. Oh, no, I'm mistaken, that is Denis. I

15 apologise. That is too quick.

16 Mr. Russo will guide us.

17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Very well.

18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... whether or not to admit

19 it. Or have we admitted it already. I was about to, no one jumped up,

20 and then Mr. Kuzmanovic jumped.

21 Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P204.

23 JUDGE ORIE: P204 is admitted into evidence.

24 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you put one question for the remaining

Page 3169

1 minute, and that is where Knin is.

2 MR. RUSSO: Yes. If we could enlarge just the sort of centre of

3 the map and move up a bit.

4 Q. Mr. Tchernetsky, I realise it is difficult to see on the map

5 here. Are you able to locate Knin on this map, perhaps by the numbers

6 and squares.

7 A. Is that question directed to me? I didn't quite understand.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could tell us where we find Knin on

9 this map. Perhaps it is --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see it here. It's hard to

11 discern.

12 MR. RUSSO: Your Honours, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, I

13 will be providing a hard copy, full size, to the Court as well as the

14 Defence counsel, but I can tell you that the contents of the map are

15 explained in the supplemental witness statement, which is Exhibit P205,

16 at paragraphs 4 and 5. It indicates what the markings on the map are.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that will do for today, I take it.

18 Mr. Russo.

19 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Mr. Tchernetsky, we are under an iron regime to stop when our

21 morning session time is over, so therefore it is not very pleasant,

22 perhaps, for you to have been called only for 15 minutes, but tomorrow

23 we'd like to continue.

24 We'd like to see you back tomorrow, the 20th of May, at 9.00 in

25 the morning, as far as I'm informed still in Courtroom II.

Page 3170

1 Mr. Tchernetsky, I want to instruct you that you should not speak

2 with anyone about your testimony, especially not the testimony still to

3 be given, because not much of your evidence has been given until now, so

4 therefore you should not speak to anyone about it, and we'd like to see

5 you back tomorrow morning, 9.00.

6 Then --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If there's nothing else, we adjourn for the day and

9 we resume tomorrow, the 20th of May, 9.00, Courtroom II.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 20th day of May,

12 2008, at 9.00 a.m.