Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3468

1 Friday, 23 May 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this

6 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning

8 everyone in the courtroom, this is case number IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor

9 versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Before I give you an

11 opportunity to cross-examine the witness, Mr. Kehoe, and other Defence

12 counsel and Prosecution, there may have been some confusion about the

13 week of the 16th of June where the Prosecution has on its list no

14 witnesses where, however, the court calendar apparently suggests that we

15 are sitting that week. We are not sitting the week of the 16th to the

16 20th of June just for your information.

17 Then, Mr. Elleby, I would like to remind you that you are still

18 bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of

19 your testimony that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

20 but the truth.


22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

23 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

25 Q. Mr. Elleby, I want to ask you some questions about some of the

Page 3469

1 matters discussed by the Prosecutor and a little bit about your

2 statements, some of the items in your statements. So if it jumps around

3 a bit there is some methodology to it.

4 I want to talk to you a little bit first about a period of time

5 before Operation Storm in July of 1995 and I understand from your

6 statement you came in the latter part of June 1995?

7 A. Mid-May, that is.

8 Q. Mid-May, excuse me, mid-May, 1995. So you were there throughout

9 the build up in July of 1995. Now, in the period you were there, the

10 treatment of the Croatian minorities in the area that you were patrolling

11 was pretty poor, wasn't it?

12 A. Treatment of the Croatian minorities was one of our big concerns

13 and we tried to monitor especially the rural areas where especially

14 elderly people lived alone.

15 Q. And -- well, if we could bring up P-218 that's already in

16 evidence. This is a UNCIVPOL report from the 24 to the 30 of July. Let

17 me just go to the next page, Mr. Registrar, it will give him the dates

18 here. Do you see that date there, sir, and I just want to take you to

19 three pages in which is the cases monitored including human rights

20 violations. If we can flip up two more pages. One more page. If he can

21 just take that top paragraph Sector South there, it notes that in

22 Sector South, the Croat minority situation in the sector is seemingly

23 worse than that of the Serb minority in south-west.

24 Now, Mr. Elleby, had this pattern of abuse of the Croat

25 minorities gone on for some time as you understood the situation in

Page 3470

1 Sector South?

2 A. Yes, you could say that, and also there were a lot of

3 restrictions of movements so from time to time, we couldn't move into

4 certain areas and as this paper shows, in the end of July, we couldn't

5 actually move anywhere.

6 Q. Let me just -- we'll touch on the restriction of movements in one

7 moment but I'd just like to talk to you a little bit about the reporting

8 on what was occurring with the Croat minority in the Krajina or in

9 Sector South which is the area that you were familiar with. What exactly

10 was transpiring and what was being reported back and what did you learn?

11 A. I don't remember any cases reported but the Croatian minority had

12 difficulties getting daily needs, food supply, if they needed any medical

13 treatments, there were no infrastructure securing that they could go to,

14 for example, Knin to the hospital.

15 Q. So there was some, for instance, inabilities to go to the

16 hospital in Knin if they needed medical care?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And while you were driving around the Sector South area and again

19 I'm talking about before Operation Storm, did you observe widespread

20 destruction of Croat villages and towns?

21 A. There were some houses in some towns destructed, yes.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Elleby, taking off on your restriction of movement

23 point, before we get to that, the relationship between CIVPOL and the RSK

24 authorities was pretty poor for a significant period of time, wasn't it?

25 A. Yes, it was changing. It was going up and down, so to say.

Page 3471

1 Q. Well, I mean and -- let's focus on July, it was -- and what was

2 happening in July of 1995. It was very poor in July of 1995, wasn't it?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. And the RSK authorities restricted UNCIVPOL's ability to go where

5 they wanted to go to do their job, didn't they?

6 A. Yes, they did.

7 Q. And as tensions moved or as tensions grew in the Knin area, the

8 restrictions were virtually eliminated, weren't they?

9 A. You could say that.

10 Q. In addition to that, there were hijackings of UN vehicles,

11 weren't there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, while this was going on, you were also aware, were you not,

14 that the HV, the army of the -- you understand HV is --

15 A. I do.

16 Q. -- the HV is a -- it's always good to clarify to make sure we're

17 on the same page.

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. The HV was -- had a series of offensives through July up through

20 the Dinara towards Grahovo that caused the ARSK to be defeated in a

21 series of attacks, didn't they?

22 A. The last part of your sentence I don't know, but I knew that the

23 Croatian army was advancing into the Dinara area in Bosnia.

24 Q. Now, before we explore that a little bit more let me just talk to

25 you a little bit about --

Page 3472

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, may I just seek some clarification. One

2 of your questions was and it may be a lack of knowledge of the English

3 language on my part and as tensions moved or as tensions grew in the Knin

4 area, the restrictions were virtually eliminated. Were the restrictions

5 eliminated or was the freedom of movement eliminated?

6 MR. KEHOE: That was a good catch, Judge, I believe we were

7 talking about the freedom of movements were eliminated.


9 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Here you see if you apparently use the wrong terms

11 and you get of course then the wrong answer and everyone seems to be

12 fully happy and not being aware of what was said anymore. The Chamber

13 tries to stay aware of the words used. Please proceed.

14 MR. KEHOE: I apologise, Judge, and I thank you for that.

15 Q. Now talking about Knin itself, Knin itself, the population in

16 Knin was armed, wasn't it?

17 A. I don't know. I don't think -- yes, maybe some civilian also

18 were armed. I couldn't answer that totally.

19 Q. Okay. But based on your relationship with the population in

20 Knin, the population in Knin throughout July of 1995 was certainly very

21 hostile towards you and other UN members, weren't they?

22 A. The authorities were quite hostile. The civil population a bit

23 less. I mean we were actually staying in their houses and living between

24 them through the day and it didn't give any problems.

25 Q. And why were the authorities hostile towards the UN?

Page 3473

1 A. Well, it can only be a guess. I guess they didn't like us being

2 there or they wanted to keep something from us. Could have been military

3 movement. I don't know.

4 Q. Well, we'll get to that in a moment. But just staying with the

5 population in Knin. You were attempting to work with the RSK police

6 during this period of time, weren't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And during this period of time, did you observe the RSK police

9 virtually switching uniforms from their normal blue uniforms to switching

10 to green combat fatigues?

11 A. Yes, that happened at several occasions for shorter or longer

12 periods.

13 Q. So would you -- did you conclude from that that they were

14 blending their police functions and their military functions together?

15 A. Yes, it was sometimes difficult to see the difference --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you are asking the witness for

17 conclusions in relation to functions and apparently you started with the

18 uniforms they were wearing. Now, these are of course two different

19 things, what uniform you wear or what functions you are performing.

20 Could you please lay a proper foundation and where the witness

21 answered, "It was sometimes difficult to see the difference," then it's

22 unclear whether he is referring to the uniforms or to the performance of

23 functions and I think that's important for us to know.

24 But perhaps, Mr. Elleby, having heard this you could clarify.

25 Was the difficulty to see the performance in functions or was it

Page 3474

1 difficult to see the difference in the uniforms they were wearing?

2 THE WITNESS: This is the last option, Your Honour, it was

3 difficult to see who was who. I wasn't totally aware of the functioning.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.


6 Q. Now, as we move through July of 1995, you note in your

7 supplemental information sheet -- well actually, I think it begins in

8 P214, page 1 about midway down, that you saw a lot of soldiers on the

9 street but I'm -- in your supplemental sheet, you note that you observed

10 an increased number of RSK troops in Knin in this period -- in the period

11 building up to the beginning of Operation Storm. Can you tell us about

12 that a little bit?

13 A. Yes, the assessment of the picture in the streets, in the town,

14 was that from a few days in July and up to the end of July, that there

15 came more and more military vehicles, more and more uniformed military

16 personnel.

17 Q. And did you and your other CIVPOL monitors observe that while you

18 were driving around the area?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, this is, if we go back to 218, and on page 3, if I may. I

21 believe that's the same page, just towards the bottom of -- if we can go

22 to the next page, please. In the quality of life -- I don't know if we

23 could give the witness an ability to see that bottom portion a little bit

24 better.

25 Can you see that, Mr. Elleby? I know that's a little cut off on

Page 3475

1 the right-hand side.

2 A. Yes, I can see it.

3 Q. The second sentence says, "A similar situation --" well, let me

4 read the prior sentence first because it puts the next sentence into

5 context. "The quality of life in sectors north and south has been

6 dramatically affect by the imminent threat of war. Towns in Sector North

7 look like ghost towns, all stores and public places being closed with

8 only women, children and the aged or handicapped left at homes. A

9 similar situation exists in Sector South where the natives are reported

10 to be nervous and increasingly hostile towards the UN."

11 So this was --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I take it that you wanted to read that it

13 had drastically instead of dramatically.

14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, drastically. Did I misread that?

15 Yes, drastically, I apologise.

16 Q. So this is essentially taking place when you are at least

17 learning about the fighting that's going up on the Dinara; isn't that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. So at the same time, and correct me if I converge these ideas

21 improperly in any fashion, so while you were learning of fighting up in

22 the Dinara, and an increase of personnel, of soldiers in Knin, the

23 civilian population is becoming increasingly hostile towards the UN. Is

24 that all basically happening at the same time?

25 A. Well, I wouldn't say as I look at it and as I remember it that

Page 3476

1 the civil population were hostile to UN, but they were desperate and they

2 were getting more and more nervous. That was obvious. And the

3 authorities maybe were a little more hostile than the civilian

4 population.

5 Q. Now, things -- did things dramatically change after the fall of

6 Bosanski Grahovo on the 27th, 28th of July of 1995?

7 A. That would be Sector East?

8 Q. That's actually over in Bosnia but right over the Dinara.

9 A. Okay. I don't know about that.

10 Q. Okay. Now, during this period of time when you were observing

11 the increase in troops in Knin, and you might have said this before,

12 Mr. Elleby, but could you give us a bit of a time frame of when you saw

13 this increase in troops?

14 A. It was beginning in maybe the first or the second week of July

15 and then it was increasing until the last days of July when they were

16 there were quite a lot of military in Knin.

17 Q. Now, during this period of time, did you notice troop movements

18 up the road from Knin towards Strmica and basically up the road to

19 Strmica?

20 A. There were a lot of troop movements. I couldn't give the purpose

21 for where they were going but they were moving in and out of town.

22 Q. Basically a direction, did you see troop movements going out of

23 Knin towards Strmica?

24 A. I think so, yes.

25 Q. Did you see military equipment going up that road towards Strmica

Page 3477

1 as well?

2 A. I don't remember very clearly but there were some tanks also in

3 the Knin area.

4 Q. During this period of time and if we could back to P118 on this,

5 excuse me, P218.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one clarifying question? You were

7 talking -- you were asked about civilian population in the part of your

8 report where it is about quality of life. You are talking about natives,

9 natives getting nervous, natives becoming hostile. Did you have all the

10 natives on your mind? Were you thinking about certain ethnicities?

11 Because in the context, reading it, it might well refer to certain

12 natives but that's not what this portion of -- says. Could you tell us

13 whether nervosity and whether hostility was equally on both sides?

14 THE WITNESS: I will try to, Your Honour. First, I will say the

15 document on the screen, I didn't write it, it's an assessment from the HQ

16 in Zagreb gathering up information from all the sectors.

17 Our contact with the civilian population in the period before

18 Operation Storm was basically a Serb population. If there were any

19 Croats staying in Knin, it must have been very few. I don't remember.

20 But all the places the monitors were accommodated were at Serbian

21 families.

22 JUDGE ORIE: So as far as you're concerned, your answers were

23 about Serbs and Serbian families?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed.

Page 3478


2 Q. Now, staying with this document, the next sentence after the one

3 we just read beginning with "early successes," do you see that, sir?

4 "Early successes" is cut off a just a bit, Mr. Monkhouse, but it notes

5 that, "Early successes in a Croatian attack on either Sector South and

6 Sector North could easily initiate mass hysteria or panic in turn leading

7 to random violence against the UN personnel living there."

8 Now, Mr. Elleby, is that an accurate assessment of what you

9 thought would happen if the HV began to move in towards the Knin area and

10 had some success in a military campaign?

11 A. There were discussions in the HQ in Knin, the UN HQ whether or

12 not there would be a hostage situation. I don't remember any fear among

13 the UN personnel from the civil population that they would take any

14 hostile action against us but, again, it was very tense. Everybody was

15 very nervous.

16 Q. But what we have in this report is reporting back from the

17 Sector South unit to Zagreb, is it not?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Now, as we move through the rest of this paragraph, it says, "The

20 forced closure of businesses not to mention the critical cut off of the

21 Livno valley supply route is bound to have an adverse socio-economic

22 effects. Is bound to have adverse socio-economic effects. The road

23 through Bosanski Grahovo was the main smuggling pipeline to Knin."

24 Now, what was the -- and I take it that this is a smuggling

25 pipeline by the RSK to Knin. Now, do you recall what was being brought

Page 3479

1 down -- I'm sorry.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


4 Q. Thank you. Do you recall what was being smuggled into Knin

5 through the Bosanski Grahovo road?

6 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. And if we could just go down to the last sentence, it notes that,

8 "The influx of refugees from Bosanski Grahovo and Strmica is further

9 destabilizing the civil situation in Knin."

10 Do you recall when these refugees left Bosanski Grahovo and

11 Strmica and began to make their way into Knin?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Now, when these tensions were rising, was there a basic fear of

14 the Croats retaking this area, a fear among the Krajina Serbs?

15 A. Yes, there were.

16 Q. And based on the period of time you were living there, was there

17 a degree of propaganda coming from the Krajina Serb authorities about

18 what would transpire if the Croats ultimately came into the area?

19 A. I can say I only heard of that sort of propaganda. I didn't read

20 the language.

21 Q. I understand.

22 A. I didn't understand it very well. But I think -- that's

23 speculation, I really don't know.

24 Q. What did you hear?

25 A. What I think I heard was that it would be a very bad for the Serb

Page 3480

1 population when the Croatian army would take back Krajina.

2 Q. Now, did you conclude at the time, Mr. Elleby, that that

3 increased the tension level among the civilian population?

4 A. I think I did.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, could you please make a small pause

6 between question and answer.

7 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

8 I apologise, Mr. Elleby, you and I are speaking English but

9 apparently I'm moving a bit too quickly and I'll do what I can to take a

10 pause between our comments to each other.



13 Q. Mr. Elleby, in this period of time, did you observe the Serb

14 population leaving the area on buses?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. Now, if I may, I just would like to cover a couple of areas that

17 you talked about yesterday and the -- well, yesterday, excuse me. And

18 basically, you talked about Operation Storm when it took place. In your

19 testimony -- Your Honour, I only have the preliminary version of the

20 transcript because the final has not come out yet. But on yesterday's

21 transcript at page 51, line 25 going on to page 52, line 1, you noted

22 that, "I remember the UN military talking about a very fast and

23 professional military operation."

24 Do you also recall, sir, that after that took place, there was

25 also a talk about a counterattack by the ARSK and/or the Bosnian Serb

Page 3481

1 army?

2 A. I remember that issue being discussed at the staff meetings with

3 the UN military.

4 Q. And did they talk about the ARSK joining with the Bosnian Serb

5 forces to conduct such a counterattack?

6 A. I don't remember that in detail. They were -- the UN military

7 were trying to assess the possibility of an attack.

8 Q. I understand. Now, in P225, if we could bring that up on the

9 screen.

10 Mr. Elleby, this is the document that we talked yesterday, your

11 16 August 1995 report that you signed at the bottom. But you note in the

12 first sentence that, "Ten days have gone since the Croatian invasion in

13 Knin. It is pretty clear that most of the soldiers have been sent out of

14 the town."

15 Now, Mr. Elleby, at this point are you talking about the soldiers

16 that initially came into Knin on the 5th of August of 1995?

17 A. I don't know that. This should assess that the picture in the

18 streets were changing so there were less military personnel and more and

19 more police and civilians.

20 Q. Did you learn either through observation or conversations with

21 either personnel on the street or at the UN compound that the soldiers,

22 the HV soldiers had been redeployed to an area up on the border between

23 Croatia and Bosnia to prepare to take defensive positions and prepare

24 against the counterattack?

25 A. I don't remember that.

Page 3482

1 Q. Now, staying with this document, this is the document that you

2 note towards the second to last paragraph that you noted that it was like

3 a Tombstone, Arizona, and there was a -- by that, you inferred that there

4 was a degree of lawlessness and chaos in the area, wasn't there?

5 A. That was my opinion, yes.

6 Q. Would you consider it to be a power vacuum during that period of

7 time?

8 A. I don't know what you call it, but it was discussed in the UN

9 compound that it was still quite unsafe to be in Knin.

10 Q. And I think you talked about a variety of -- and we'll talk about

11 some lootings and burnings that were going on there but amidst this

12 chaos, and correct me if in any way I make a mistake on commenting on

13 your testimony, but within this chaos, did you observe that there were,

14 in fact, attempts by some Croat authorities to bring some order to what

15 was transpiring in Knin and the surrounding areas?

16 A. I can answer to that that I think that some of the authorities

17 were working hard on it. It was not clear to me as a UN officer to see

18 the progress.

19 Q. I understand. But the -- based on your testimony, there were

20 some authorities that were working hard to bring some order here. But

21 let's turn to a document that was admitted into evidence but was not

22 discussed yesterday which is P224.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, your last line said that, "Based on your

24 testimony, there was some authorities ..."

25 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

Page 3483

1 JUDGE ORIE: That clearly was the testimony of that witness,

2 based on the witness to establish anything is for the Chamber to do. I

3 don't know why you repeated it, perhaps because you think it important.

4 This Chamber finds all the evidence important and not just those

5 portions.

6 MR. KEHOE: I understand.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then "based on the testimony" really suggests

8 that you are qualifying it as something which is true and good and

9 that's, again, for the Chamber.

10 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And already in your previous sentence, you said,

12 "Forgive me on commenting," you were perfectly right that commenting is

13 not needed. Please proceed.

14 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I was inviting the witness if at any

15 portion I, in my question, inferred something contrary to his testimony,

16 I invited him to correct me.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Put that question, he answered that question very

18 clearly and that's it. Please proceed.

19 MR. KEHOE: I understand.

20 Q. Let me turn to P224. Now, this is a report, a UNCIVPOL report

21 dated 15 August 1995, and the second sentence down, well, actually, "On

22 13 August 1995, at 11.45, human rights patrol visited Ivosevci area in

23 the hamlet of Korolije," giving a grid reference, "met with four Serb old

24 people who remained in the area. They informed that the Croatian army CA

25 present there, which includes one doctor, has been feeding them and

Page 3484

1 treating them well."

2 In the midst of this chaos, there were reports like that,

3 Mr. Elleby, where the Croatian army was attempting to assist the Serb

4 population, weren't there?

5 A. Yes, this report shows it, yes.

6 Q. Did you learn of other reports in that regard?

7 A. I don't remember any.

8 Q. You talked a little bit in your statements and a bit in your

9 testimony about some lootings and burnings transpiring and if I could

10 bring up a series of reports and if we could start with, if I may, I

11 think I missed a P number for 65 ter 2105. I have been told that it's

12 still a 65 ter document and has not been --

13 JUDGE ORIE: And you would like to tender that.

14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. --

16 MS. FROLICH: No objection, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D237.

19 JUDGE ORIE: D237 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.


21 Q. Now, on the -- if we could pull this document up. I don't

22 believe this is the document I am referring to and I may have been

23 mistaken on this document. It is a Sector South weekly report from -- I

24 am mistaken, Judge, if we can strike D237, it has been admitted into

25 evidence as P223. My apologies.

Page 3485

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please vacate D237.

2 MR. KEHOE: This is the report. If we can go in, just the next

3 page.

4 Q. As you can see, Mr. Elleby, this is a weekly report of 14-20 of

5 August 1995. And if we could go in two more pages to the 15th of August.

6 That's it. And I know that there is a copying line through there,

7 Mr. Elleby, which might render it a bit difficult to see, but

8 nevertheless, frankly that's the best we have.

9 If you could look at that comment under "unfortunately ..."

10 A. Do you see that, "Unfortunately, the trend of robbery and

11 intimidation of remaining Serbs has been initiated in Sector South. A

12 Serb living in Knin AOR was assaulted and robbed at his house by a group

13 of four Croats, two of whom were soldiers."

14 Now, looking at this particular item, it has an incident that

15 takes place with four Croats. I infer from that that two were in

16 civilian clothing and two of them were in military clothing; is that

17 right?

18 A. That's what it says, I don't remember the incident.

19 Q. Was it very common when you heard reports of civilian people in

20 civilian clothing operating or doing something criminal with people that

21 were wearing combat fatigues?

22 A. I don't remember.

23 Q. Well, in this particular incident, when you -- did you --

24 obviously when you read this at the time, you would have -- would you

25 have concluded that this was not some military operation if we had people

Page 3486

1 in civilian clothing and military clothing operating together?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you are reading -- you are drawing an

3 inference and you are asking the witness to follow you.

4 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Judge.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The report says that they were soldiers. Of course

6 it's likely that you call soldiers those who are wearing uniforms, but

7 you make an inference and want the witness to follow that.

8 I'd like to know do you have any knowledge of why these two

9 persons were qualified in this report as soldiers? Do you know whether

10 it was on the basis of the uniform? Do you know whether it was on the

11 basis of knowledge of the reporter that they were soldiers? Do you have

12 any knowledge of that?

13 THE WITNESS: No, Your Honour, I don't.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Inferences are there to be drawn by the

15 Chamber on an accurate, factual basis.

16 Please proceed.


18 Q. Now, you note in -- actually, it is -- in P225, if we may go back

19 to that. You note at P225, sir, that you observed a soldier taking a

20 stereo. Do you see that, sir?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Now, in that, sir, when you saw that particular item, you saw

23 somebody that was in fatigues; is that right?

24 A. Could you translate fatigues for me?

25 Q. In military clothing?

Page 3487

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And based on seeing this person taking this stereo, you didn't

3 conclude that he was conducting some type of military operation, did you?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. Now, likewise, if we go to 227, P227, in this particular

6 instance, in the second paragraph down, it notes, and this is from the

7 17th of August, 1995, "Consequently, there is material evidence that the

8 houses in question were set ablaze by Croatian infantrymen as six of them

9 were seen on board a tractor and driving from the scene towards the main

10 road."

11 Were you familiar with this incident, sir?

12 A. I don't remember that incident.

13 Q. As a -- one of the supervisors for UN CIVPOL at the time, if you

14 had read an item such as this, six men identified as Croatian infantry

15 seen on board of a tractor, would you have concluded that they were doing

16 this on their own?

17 A. Well, that would be speculation. I don't remember my reaction to

18 this report which I obviously must have read at the time. I don't know

19 the culture, the behaviour of soldiers on the Balkans. I don't know if

20 they could do such a thing. So I would have trouble answering that in

21 detail.

22 Q. Let me take you to a UNCRO report, actually it's an UNMO report,

23 P154. Now, this is a situation report, Mr. Elleby, from the 19th of

24 September, 1995, and I'm not saying that you saw this report, Mr. Elleby,

25 there is just some information in here that I'd like to ask you about.

Page 3488

1 If we could go three pages in. And up at the point E, the next page,

2 please. In the humanitarian aspects, 19 at 820 September, investigated

3 one house on fire in Knin," grid reference. "No casualties observed. It

4 is assessed that the house was set on fire by neighbours returning to the

5 area.

6 Now, Mr. Elleby, was that a general impression of the CIVPOL

7 authorities, including yourself, that much of or at least some of these

8 fires were -- or took place and were done by neighbours, Croat neighbours

9 who were returning to the area after having been exiled some years

10 before?

11 A. I wouldn't know. I can only say that there were a lot of houses

12 burning in the area in that period. I didn't, myself, see anyone put

13 fire to any one of those houses. I didn't witness it. And this is an

14 UNMO assessment. I don't know on what base it is made on.

15 Q. And I just take it one step further, Mr. Elleby. When you had

16 discussions between and among your colleagues and CIVPOL and UNMO, did

17 such an impression come into the conversation that many of the crimes

18 that were taking place in Sector South were being done by Croats

19 returning to the area?

20 A. I don't remember that.

21 Q. Just going down a little bit more to the UNMO Sibenik team. It

22 notes, "When distributing food to remaining Serbs in the following

23 villages," and gives the villages, "observed men in civilian and uniforms

24 looting the villages."

25 Was that also a -- was that an assessment of your personnel when

Page 3489

1 you were in Sector South?

2 A. I think it was, yes.

3 Q. That the civilians and soldiers or people in uniform, if you

4 will, were doing this together?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, let me go to the next page of this document. It is right in

7 the centre of that page and it's the same situation report, Mr. Elleby,

8 on the 19th of September. Just starting from, "But the remaining Serbs

9 can observe lootings of neighbours' houses." Do you see that, sir? In

10 the middle of -- just a little bit down. "The remaining Serbs can

11 observe looting of ..."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "But the remaining Serbs can observe looting of neighbours'

14 houses. The remaining Serbs states that the area earlier have been

15 visited by HV soldier that behaved in a correct manner, but they believed

16 that the uniformed men visiting now are not real soldiers."

17 That particular instance of people in uniform that you, CIVPOL,

18 which either on patrol or part of HRAT patrols, was that a conclusion

19 that simply because these people were in uniform they weren't necessarily

20 real soldiers?

21 A. I think it would be difficult for me or any other CIVPOL officer

22 to tell the difference unless somebody was wearing jeans and sneakers and

23 just a military coat or something like that.

24 Q. So can I take from your answer that simply because somebody had

25 what looked to be like a military uniform, you couldn't conclude that

Page 3490

1 that person was actually a soldier.

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Now, were you familiar with Kari Anttila who was not only an UNMO

4 but was, I guess, working on the HRAT patrols? He was a Finnish

5 gentleman there during the same time frame as you, possibly coming in

6 mid-August?

7 A. I don't remember the name.

8 Q. He testified, I believe, on the 2nd of May before this Court on

9 page 2646 and starting on line 13, that was referring to a comment in his

10 witness statement that, "Croats were burning and looting Serb houses

11 independent on their military activity." The question is, "You meant

12 independent of their military activity?" And he answered, "Yes."

13 "So these Serbs" actually, the Croat but, "these soldiers were

14 doing it completely independent of what their responsibilities were

15 militarily, weren't they?" Answer: "That's what I've tried to say

16 there."

17 So, sir, when you were down in Sector South in your position, did

18 you likewise conclude as Mr. Anttila that this looting and burning of

19 Serb houses by people in uniform was done completely independent of

20 military responsibility?

21 A. No, I wouldn't be able to conclude that.

22 Q. Now, but the incident that you had talked to us about is the

23 Puma Brigade situation or the looting of your -- or the stealing of your

24 landlady's car. You have to --

25 A. Oh, yes, sorry.

Page 3491

1 Q. Now, you were, I believe, shown an exhibit which is P281.

2 Now, you noted in response to Judge Orie's question that you

3 could only identify the actual animal that's in this; is that right?

4 A. That's right.

5 Q. And when you were shown this picture by the Office of the

6 Prosecutor, were you shown any other photographs?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, when you were asked about this incident, and you observed

9 your landlady's car being stolen, and you saw -- and it was people that

10 were -- looked like military uniforms? Is that right?

11 A. Yes, that's right.

12 Q. Did you conclude at that point when you observed that these

13 people in uniforms were stealing this car on their own and not as part of

14 some military function?

15 A. Yes, I think they were stealing that car on their own.

16 Q. Now, let us talk a little bit about some of the reports that you

17 filed and you talked about yesterday. And I address your attention to

18 P179.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you are asking the witness for a

20 conclusion. He said what he thought. Could we try to lay a factual

21 foundation for that?

22 Could you tell us how many there were?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As I remember, there were four

24 soldiers, young men in uniform with the Puma on the shoulder. Some of

25 them were wearing soft military caps. At least one of them has a scarf

Page 3492

1 tied around his head instead of a hat or a cap on it. And they were --

2 all four were armed.

3 JUDGE ORIE: How were they armed?

4 THE WITNESS: With rifles.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Were they in company with people who were not in

6 military attire?

7 THE WITNESS: No, they were not.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Did you see persons in similar uniforms in the

9 vicinity, I mean not directly together with these four, but -- well,

10 let's say, in the next street or in the area?

11 THE WITNESS: I didn't recognise exactly these four soldiers with

12 other soldiers, but soldiers dressed like the four were seen in the area.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If soldiers were present in the area, did you

14 observe soldiers patrolling in groups of a similar size?

15 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't see any patrolling, didn't look like

16 patrolling, anyway.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Why did it not look like patrolling?

18 THE WITNESS: More looked like, so to say, that the soldiers were

19 hanging around.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.


22 Q. Now, Mr. Elleby, this incident that you told us about, about this

23 theft of your landlady's car, this was a single incident of theft, wasn't

24 it?

25 A. That's right.

Page 3493

1 Q. Now, let's us turn our attention to some of the documents that we

2 talked about with the Prosecutor and I want to focus on a couple of

3 reports that you put into evidence and if I could look at P179.

4 MR. KEHOE: Take that off, please. Take it down, please. Excuse

5 me, P235. I'm sorry. D179, D.

6 Q. Now, a couple of questions about this, Mr. Elleby. I think you

7 talked about this document previously as a list of murders that were

8 committed since the 4th that you sent on to Mr. Cetina in Zadar?

9 A. That's right.

10 Q. And I think that you also said in response to my learned friend's

11 comments that you weren't clear as to what happened with this information

12 after you sent it.

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Now, this information is based on information UN CIVPOL gathered

15 at the time; right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And certainly, it wasn't making any conclusions about whether or

18 not these were, in fact, murders or that the information you were passing

19 along was accurate; isn't that correct?

20 A. The information passed along was accurate as it was taken from

21 the inc-reps, whether or not all of them were murder cases should be

22 shown through the investigation.

23 MR. KEHOE: I understand. Let's -- if we could go into private

24 session, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

Page 3494

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16 (redacted)

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Page 3495











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Page 3496

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7 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 3497

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.


3 Q. In 179 on -- this is three pages in on 13. Is this D179, I'm

4 sorry? Excuse me, P179. 13 on the bottom, this again is the listing of

5 the items that you sent on to Mr. Cetina. In this particular item, you

6 are talking about an incident that took place on the 21st of August where

7 an individual was found in a well.

8 Do you recall this, sir?

9 A. I do recall this being reported to me, this incident, about the

10 person in the well, yeah.

11 Q. And again, it's incident report 02-95/477. Now, if we could turn

12 to that particular document which is P233.

13 Now, if you take a quick look at this, sir, this is a document

14 that refers to an individual -- two men dressed in civilian clothing

15 coming into the village with long hair and carrying AK-47s. And as we

16 move down the line towards the second to last paragraph, it talks about

17 these CIVPOL officers going to the village and there was a victim inside

18 the well. Do you see that towards the bottom, "Today, on 23 August,

19 1995"?

20 A. I see it.

21 Q. "At 1000 hours, CIVPOL went to Benkovac and was accompanied by

22 military police from CanBat and Policija Benkovac to the scene of the

23 crime. The victim was still inside the well. She was brought out of the

24 well and on close examination, there was no visible sign of gunshot

25 wounds."

Page 3498

1 Now, if we move up just a bit in that paragraph, apparently this

2 woman had left her cane and her apron neatly folded and her shoes were

3 placed on top.

4 Now, when you say that this was a list of murders, I mean the

5 list that you sent to Mr. Cetina was a list of murders, did you question

6 in your mind whether or not this fit the category of a murder or of a

7 woman who just committed suicide?

8 A. Yes, of course, as long as no thorough investigation has been

9 taken place, you couldn't be sure that it is murder.

10 Q. Right. And would that likewise be in P229, if you could put

11 P229.

12 This describes a woman that when approached by two HV soldiers

13 ran and was shot. While it's described as a murder, all you're asking

14 for in this report is further investigation with no conclusion that this

15 was, in fact, a murder; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, the witness has now on three occasions

19 told us that he reported those incidents where apparently, persons were

20 killed and where, on the basis of the reporting, it appeared to be

21 justified to further investigate because the possibility of a murder

22 could certainly not be excluded. That's apparent from all these stories.

23 Why go through all that? I mean that's what he said what it was.

24 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I will move on to my last topic because I'm

25 almost done.

Page 3499



3 Q. Now, if we go to P223. Now, Mr. Elleby, you did, in fact, learn

4 that arrests of some HV soldiers had been made during this time frame,

5 didn't you?

6 A. I don't think I remember.

7 Q. If we can just -- if we can go to the next page in this document.

8 I want to make sure the date is correct. It's -- can we change that to

9 P230. If we can go -- if I can just check this number.

10 MR. KEHOE: One moment, Your Honour. If we go to the next page

11 of that.

12 Q. Now, if we can -- this is another -- a weekly report coming from

13 Zagreb and if we can go three more pages in. If we can just -- if you

14 see the "Yet" there, sir and if we go down to that sentence, the next

15 sentence says, "Knin Policija." Do you see that about three quarters of

16 the way down, further down. It's about the middle -- do you see "Knin

17 Policija liaison officer Gambiroza Zvonko"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "Has however mentioned to UNCIVPOL a case of three HV soldiers

20 being arrested for theft and arson in Korenica." So obviously that

21 report was coming out of Korenica but it was in fact happening that

22 soldiers were arrested?

23 A. I haven't seen this before but -- and I don't remember but, yes,

24 it looked like it.

25 Q. Now, we talked a bit about during the course of your testimony

Page 3500

1 with my learned friend Mr. Kay about a series of reports going on within

2 the civilian authorities and you expressed your frustration in trying to

3 get things done because you weren't learning what was transpiring in

4 these investigations, were you?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And I think you noted that in some of the areas, the higher

7 echelon areas of the Croatian civilian police would have or should have

8 been contacted by the people at the UN in Zagreb and not you on a low

9 level; is that right?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And based on your experience, I mean you had some difficult times

12 dealing with the UN bureaucracy in Zagreb, didn't you?

13 A. Well, there were some bureaucracy, yes.

14 Q. And you had a difficult time getting information from them as

15 well?

16 A. No, I don't think so. I think we had a good connection with the

17 commissioner's office.

18 Q. The information that was -- you certainly -- I think you said

19 yesterday in response to Mr. Kay you weren't getting information back on

20 these investigations and if we could look at D97. And I -- I know you

21 haven't seen this report, sir, but I just have you take a look at D97,

22 it's a report from Minister Jarnjak of the Ministry of the Interior to

23 the state Prosecutor and if you take a look at the first page and then

24 take a look at the second page. The second page the two boxes: One,

25 overview of crimes punishable acts according to the police

Page 3501

1 administration, 22 August to 2 October 1995. And the next box is the

2 statistics on overview of number of on-site investigations and

3 perpetrator profile for the same time frame.

4 Now, recognising that you hadn't seen this document, Mr. Elleby,

5 would it be fair to say that you would have been much more satisfied that

6 work was being done on these investigations had you been made aware of

7 these statistics and this information?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. But you weren't made aware of it?

10 A. No, I wasn't.

11 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. You

12 have been very helpful. I have no further questions.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you assist me, known perpetrators appear in

14 three categories. Could you give us a clue as what you understand known

15 perpetrators in their three different categories to be.

16 MR. KEHOE: I will have Mr. Misetic look at the B/C/S and it has

17 a designation there in B/C/S and he can read --

18 JUDGE ORIE: It appears not on the translation, apparently.

19 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, under known perpetrators it says --

20 the first column says, "Members of the HV." The second column says,

21 "Civilians." And the third column says, "Misuse of uniform," in other

22 words, it would indicate a person who was improperly wearing a uniform at

23 the time of commission.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Do I have to understand this that only in one case

25 in this period of time, for example, in Zadar-Knin that it was

Page 3502

1 established that someone who was wearing a uniform abused that uniform so

2 that all others wearing uniforms were not abusing that uniform and

3 therefore were soldiers? Is that how I have to understand this?

4 MR. MISETIC: Quite frankly, Your Honour, I'm not certain of

5 that. It may just be that someone had presented themselves --

6 misrepresented themselves officially upon being asked to state who they

7 are, that they represented themselves as a member of the HV and then also

8 were charged with making a false representation, sort of like

9 impersonating a police officer as opposed to simply wearing a camouflage

10 shirt or pants and then being categorised as a civilian. I would have to

11 look into that further, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I'm asking this because of course you

13 are presenting these statistics to the witness and I take it that you

14 want to tender that, Mr. Kehoe.

15 MR. KEHOE: It's actually in evidence.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It's in evidence.

17 MR. KEHOE: It's already in evidence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then --

19 MR. KEHOE: And this of course is for a time frame of 22 August

20 to 2 October and not prior to that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand that. Because if the statistics

22 are there, we now know that this witness was not aware of these

23 statistics but these statistics are now in evidence so we try to

24 interpret them and we try to understand them.

25 Thank you, Mr. Kehoe, for -- Ms. Frolich. Is there any need to

Page 3503

1 reexamine the witness?

2 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Elleby, Ms. Frolich will put some further

4 questions to you.

5 MS. FROLICH: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Re-examination by Ms. Frolich:

7 Q. Now, Mr. Elleby, yesterday you said that you believe that

8 Mr. Romanic was key for you to get a move on in the policing of crimes

9 and that was in response to a question page 38, lines 7 and 8, in

10 response to a question from Mr. Kay, you said that you appreciated that

11 the dead bodies that you found and asked to be investigated would have to

12 be investigated not by his Kotar-Knin police administration but by the

13 Zadar-Knin police administration. Your answer was, "I did, of course,

14 but I still found that he was the key for us to get a move on in the

15 policing of these matters."

16 Now, can you tell us why you still considered Mr. Romanic to

17 be ...

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no.

19 MS. FROLICH: Excuse me. I'm sorry, maybe I'm too fast.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

21 MS. FROLICH: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Elleby, did you hear my question or should I repeat part of

23 it?

24 A. I think I understand your question. I -- my opinion was that

25 Mr. Romanic was my point of contact, so to say, in the area of Knin. In

Page 3504

1 a bureaucracy system, it's quite normal that you make contacts on your

2 own level and then the person you contact will move on in his system.

3 And being a police officer, I didn't think that Mr. Romanic would neglect

4 information about dead people.

5 Q. What exactly did you expect Mr. Romanic to do about the

6 information that you gave him?

7 A. I expected him to pass the information on to the investigation

8 department, wherever it was, and to get information back what was

9 happening in the case.

10 Q. Would this information be any information on what was happening

11 in the case?

12 A. My wish was that we could discuss progresses in the policing.

13 Q. What was the role of Mr. Cetina in relation to this?

14 A. He was above Mr. Romanic and if Mr. Romanic couldn't tell us

15 about the progressing in the policing, we had to ask Mr. Cetina.

16 Q. How do you expect Mr. Cetina to know about information that you

17 provided to Mr. Romanic?

18 A. I expected that Mr. Romanic and Mr. Cetina shared information

19 regularly, daily or anyway, often, because Mr. Cetina was above

20 Mr. Romanic for the Knin area.

21 Q. And how did you know that?

22 A. I didn't know it. I just -- I just hoped that it and I hoped

23 that we could get a move on in the information to and fro the CIVPOL so

24 we knew what was going on.

25 Q. But something gave you the impression that Mr. Cetina was above

Page 3505

1 Mr. Romanic. What was that?

2 A. I don't actually remember how I got to that knowledge. I think

3 Mr. Romanic told me.

4 MR. KAY: That's a matter that's within the witness's statement

5 presented in 92 ter, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich.

7 MS. FROLICH: Your Honour, I --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich, it appears that Mr. Kay considers it

9 not necessary to ask questions same as what is in already evidence in the

10 92 ter statement.

11 MS. FROLICH: I will try not to waste the Court's time. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


15 Q. Now, Mr. Elleby, you were asked questions yesterday about the

16 reporting procedure to the civilian police. On page 63, especially lines

17 24 and 25. Now, I would like to show you two documents and could we

18 please pull up P253. And I note that the original of this document is in

19 B/C/S. If we could zoom out a little bit.

20 Mr. Elleby, do you recognise this document? Could we go to page

21 2 in both English and B/C/S. Do you recognise this document?

22 A. I don't remember the document. I remember -- sorry, I recognise

23 the sign of it.

24 Q. Mr. Elleby, who is the signator of this document?

25 A. That is the commander of the UNCIVPOL Knin station,

Page 3506

1 Mr. Petro Romasev.

2 Q. Now, if we go back to the first page. Who is this document

3 addressed to?

4 A. It's addressed to Mr. Mihic in the Knin police station.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Elleby, what does this document seem to represent?

6 A. It seems to represent a reporting of findings that Mr. Romasev

7 has been doing.

8 Q. Now, based on what you said yesterday about the reporting

9 procedure to the civilian police, you said you did not remember clearly

10 what the procedure was in all cases. But is this a report that -- is

11 this a kind of a report that would have been received -- the kind of

12 notice that would have been received from CIVPOL, by the CIVPOL -- by the

13 Knin police station from CIVPOL?

14 A. Yes, it would.

15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, on a matter here, could that be

16 elaborated, the kind of information. The date of the correspondence is

17 the 8th of September, the first matter raised is the 7th of August and

18 I -- in my respectful submission, it needs elaboration.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I expect it, as a matter of fact. Ms. Frolich, you

20 would ask whether this document refreshes the memory of the witness in

21 relation to reporting. Could you please lay a proper factual foundation

22 for any conclusions to be drawn from this document as being a kind of

23 document typical for reporting?


25 Q. Mr. Elleby, what do you see at the top of the page of this

Page 3507

1 document? Could we go up a little bit?

2 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Ms. Frolich, if there is something

3 in the document, the Chamber can read. The witness can read. You can

4 read. The Defence counsel can read. Then just read and say on the top,

5 it reads so and so and so and then put your question to the witness.

6 Because also the other question to whom it was addressed. It's addressed

7 to the commander of the Knin police station. That's clear, isn't it?


9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


11 Q. Mr. Elleby, is this a UNCIVPOL document? You see that it says

12 UNCIVPOL Sector South Knin station. Does this look like a CIVPOL

13 document to you?

14 A. I think it's a document made afterwards because the lack of

15 functioning computers, that's why you don't see the letterhead. I think

16 it is based on notes made on the dates mentioned but I find it genuine.

17 I mean the sign of it. I recognise Mr. Petro Romasev's signature.

18 Q. Now, what kind of notice do you recall would CIVPOL staff give to

19 civilian police?

20 A. This refreshes my memory a bit but I still don't remember clearly

21 if this was what we were doing but, of course, the task was to pass on

22 the information of the findings made in the field.

23 Q. Was this information in written or in oral form?

24 A. It was both.

25 Q. Could we go to P262. I have the same question about this

Page 3508

1 document. What is this document, sir?

2 A. It's similar to the other one. It has another date on it and

3 some other incidents. I can't see the bottom of it, I don't know --

4 Q. Could we go to the bottom and -- to the next page.

5 A. It's not actually signed but -- okay, on the translated --

6 Q. If you could look at the original version which is in B/C/S.

7 A. Yes. That's the sign of Mr. Romasev, signature, I'm sorry.

8 Q. Again, if you could refresh the Chamber's memory. Who were

9 the --

10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber's memory is perfectly all right,

11 Ms. Frolich.

12 MS. FROLICH: I apologise.

13 Q. Who were the CIVPOL -- on what CIVPOL levels would CIVPOL staff

14 impart information to the civilian police? Which members of CIVPOL?

15 A. The station commander, which here is Mr. Petro Romasev would give

16 the information to the Knin police station commander in Knin.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Elleby. Is this document a CIVPOL document from

18 your -- from what you see on the face of this document?

19 A. It's a genuine document made by Mr. Petro Romasev.

20 MS. FROLICH: Mr. President, it is -- should we take a break at

21 this point or ...

22 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on how much more time you would need.

23 MS. FROLICH: Probably about 10 to 15 minutes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 10 to 15 minutes. Then we'll have a break until

25 11.00 and always try to keep everyone to the lower estimate, Ms. Frolich,

Page 3509

1 although I must admit that I failed with Mr. Kehoe this morning. So

2 please try to finish then in ten minutes and again, what everyone can

3 read can just be put to the witness and then questions asked to him.

4 We resume at 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.37 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Frolich, before I allow you to proceed, I'd like

8 to tell you that if you feel that my comments are confusing you or

9 disturbing you, you may refresh my memory as to how it felt to be in this

10 very same courtroom dealing with your first witnesses. I still remember

11 how that felt. Please proceed.

12 MS. FROLICH: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Elleby, yesterday, when asked by Mr. Kuzmanovic about the

14 incident in the village of Grubori, which was -- the document shown to

15 you was P230 and on page 100, lines 4 to 8, you said, "I cannot explain

16 why Mr. Romasev wrote this about that it should be committed by Croatian

17 special forces."

18 Question: "It seems to be at least as of the date of this

19 document somewhat of a rush to judgement, don't you think?"

20 Your answer was "Yes."

21 When did you first hear about this incident, Mr. Elleby?

22 A. I don't remember hearing about the incident in the mission.

23 Q. Were you involved in any way in reporting on this incident or

24 investigation of this incident?

25 A. No, I wasn't. This is one of many cases happening in the period

Page 3510

1 which have passed my desk but I don't recall this in specific.

2 Q. And how do you know that Mr. Romasev's conclusion was a rushed

3 one or a rush to judgement?

4 A. Mr. Romasev do not explain in the writing why he is making that

5 conclusion but he might have had his reasons.

6 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you were asked by Mr. Kuzmanovic about

7 restriction of movement that was imposed in times in CIVPOL, starting, I

8 believe, on page 84 of the original numbering. How did CIVPOL

9 restriction of movement imposed on CIVPOL compare to restriction of

10 movement imposed, for example, on other UN agencies, organisations in the

11 sector?

12 A. My impression is that the restrictions of movement was concerning

13 everybody but from time to time it was different between, for example,

14 between CIVPOL and the UNMOs which were military personnel.

15 Q. In what way?

16 A. Sometimes we discussed the necessity of visiting certain areas

17 and as far as I remember, sometimes the UNMOs couldn't go there and then

18 the CIVPOL went instead.

19 Q. Now, in your statements P215 and P217, you talk about fires in

20 the area that you had under your mandate and yesterday, you told us that

21 you discussed fires with your monitors. Where did your monitors observe

22 these fires?

23 A. They observed the fires in the whole area because in the

24 beginning, when they were only allowed to move in Knin and then as the

25 days went on, further and further out, then they observed the fires there

Page 3511

1 as well.

2 Q. You mentioned -- you were asked by Mr. Kuzmanovic on page 90,

3 line 16, the question was, "Your teams were restricted by the special

4 police from -- you say that your teams were restricted by the special

5 police from entering certain areas. Where were your teams restricted and

6 on what dates?"

7 Now, why did the monitors go to these areas which were restricted

8 or attempt to go to these areas?

9 A. They went to the areas because we tried to -- as we were allowed

10 to move out into the sector to cover every area, especially areas we knew

11 there were living people, mainly elderly people, and that was the reason

12 to go there.

13 Q. Was there any special reason other special reason other than --

14 any specific reason to go to the areas that they did not know

15 specifically what they could find there?

16 MR. MIKULICIC: Objection, Your Honour, the witness already

17 answered the question.

18 MS. FROLICH: I will rephrase that.

19 Q. What if anything could CIVPOL monitors observe from these areas?

20 A. The task to go into the areas was -- the first priority was the

21 humanitarian priority to see if everybody was well in the remote areas

22 and of course to see if any crime had happened.

23 Q. Was there anything that could be observed from a distance from

24 these areas?

25 A. No, I don't think so.

Page 3512

1 Q. Now, I'd like to --

2 MS. FROLICH: If I may, show the witness his supplemental

3 information sheet that he provided to the Office of the Prosecutor on the

4 19th of May, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to do that in order to refresh his

6 memory?

7 MS. FROLICH: Yes, Your Honour.

8 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour, did he say his memory needed

9 to be refreshed? What is the question?

10 MS. FROLICH: Well, I will come to that once --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Is that about observing from a distance?

12 MS. FROLICH: Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Frolich.

14 MS. FROLICH: If this could be placed on the ELMO, please,

15 because I don't believe it is --

16 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour, refreshing his memory is

17 giving it to him and asking him if it refreshes his recollection. He can

18 look at the hard copy of the document.

19 MS. FROLICH: Well ...

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see.

21 I do agree with you, Mr. Kehoe, that Ms. Frolich asked me whether

22 she was allowed to show the witness the supplemental information sheet

23 and then I asked whether that was, and my phrasing was not fully correct,

24 whether that was for purposes of seeing whether that statement would

25 refresh the recollection of the witness and that, I think, there's

Page 3513

1 nothing wrong with that. So let's proceed.

2 MS. FROLICH: Now, if you could move the document up a little bit

3 so we could see the bottom half of the document. A little more. That's

4 enough. Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Elleby, I would like to turn your attention to the second

6 paragraph from the bottom that is visible on the screen or -- yes, you

7 see it on the screen. The last sentence, "Mr. Elleby also stated that

8 CIVPOL teams were from time to time kept from certain areas where smoke

9 was observed which likely kept them from reporting these incidents of

10 burning."

11 Does that refresh your memory with respect to my question on what

12 could be observed from a distance?

13 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Judge, that's a completely different

14 question than what was asked.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The question is not exactly the same but it is in

16 such a way related that the witness can answer the question.

17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think I can clarify it. My first answer was

18 concerning how people was doing in the areas and if crime had happened.

19 That's what I was referring to. It is correct that the monitors from a

20 certain distance could see smoke columns in the area that we were

21 restricted from going into.


23 Q. Do you recall when, at what period of time? In what period of

24 time this happened?

25 A. Not in details. In the same period from mid-August to

Page 3514

1 mid-September.

2 Q. Thank you. I have just one more question for you. When you

3 spoke to Mr. Cetina and he gave you his response after you had given him

4 the list of human rights violations and murders, was Mr. Cetina

5 cooperative and responsive to you, in your opinion?

6 A. No, I can't say that he was.

7 MS. FROLICH: Thank you, Mr. Elleby.

8 I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Frolich. Have the questions of

10 re-examination triggered any need for further questions by Defence?

11 MR. KAY: No issues arise from the re-examination on my behalf,

12 Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Kehoe.

14 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour.

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: No, Your Honour.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza first has one or more questions for

18 you.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Mr. Elleby, in one of your reports, you noted

21 that you received reports to the effect that it was common to find bodies

22 dumped in wells. Could you just elaborate on that evidence?

23 A. Yes, Your Honour. It depends on how you're defining "common" at

24 this time. It was seen at some occasions that bodies were dumped in

25 wells.

Page 3515

1 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Were there any indications as to statistics

2 relating to such bodies?

3 A. I don't recall that we made any statistics about the status of

4 the findings.

5 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Okay. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you as

7 well.

8 JUDGE KINIS: Mr. Elleby, I have several questions to you and the

9 first is turning back to your statement, P217, I understand it's February

10 2008, in paragraph 5, you mentioned about mandate of CIVPOL and there is

11 such wordings I will quote, "... was to supervise civil police work."

12 Could you please clarify what do you mean under term "supervise," was it

13 similar to monitor or do you have more extension of functions?

14 A. Yes, Your Honour, I -- as I remembered now, supervise is maybe

15 too big a word. It was to monitor or maybe should I say to establish a

16 cooperation with the Croatian police force.

17 JUDGE KINIS: Mm-hm. And the next issue is in the previous

18 statements, you also mentioned that Croatian side did not provide you

19 information regarding structuring -- structure of police, regarding

20 criminal records, regarding situation on ongoing investigations. Did, at

21 that time, you have some written documents, written agreement between

22 Croatian government and UN which obliged to Croatian side to do it?

23 A. That was and is still a bit unclear to me. I think I mentioned

24 that the mandate was discussed even in the HQ in Zagreb and I don't

25 remember it being fully clear in the period I was there.

Page 3516

1 JUDGE KINIS: The last question is: You mentioned that -- also

2 that it was very hard to get some information regarding structure of

3 Croatian police and -- et cetera. My question is do you have -- had, at

4 that time, some training or some knowledge of Croatian legislation,

5 namely, legislation which relates with the development of police or law

6 of police or criminal procedure law which allows to you in legal way to

7 understand functions of these institutions and how you should cooperate

8 with them?

9 A. No, I didn't receive training in that issue.

10 JUDGE KINIS: Thank you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you as well, Mr. Elleby.

12 The first one is about restrictions of movement. In your

13 testimony yesterday, you explained to us in relation to a report, a

14 weekly report, 21st to 26th of August, and that there was an almost a

15 total freedom of movement starting at that moment approximately, you

16 talked about two to three weeks after Operation Storm.

17 Now, in one of your last answers today, you said when you were

18 explaining what you observed from a distance when no access was -- what

19 at least not what you observed but what was observed from a distance,

20 when you are not given access to a certain area. I think you

21 mentioned -- I'm trying to find it. But you said it was -- do you recall

22 when, at what period of time this happened? And then you gave mid-August

23 to mid-September. And I have some problems in reconciling not getting

24 access to an area where, from a distance, you see smoke and your answers

25 you gave yesterday about the almost total freedom of movement on from the

Page 3517

1 second or third week after Operation Storm. Could you clarify, please?

2 A. I will try to, Your Honour. It is correct that almost freedom of

3 movement was given at the end of August for the CIVPOL to move in and out

4 of the sector and to move around in the sector but as I remember it, from

5 time to time in that same period, certain areas could, in certain

6 periods, be restricted.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. I have another question

8 and I'm trying to find the source in yesterday's transcript.

9 Yesterday, questions were asked to you about the Serb resistance.

10 You may remember that I asked you whether it was in hills, woods, or

11 mountains, or whether at all you saw Serb resistance. Now, a short while

12 later a question was put to you about awareness of nine ARSK soldiers

13 were found and also questions were put to you in relation to clean-up or

14 mop-up operations, if I just can find that on page 95 of yesterday's

15 transcript.

16 You were asked what your understanding was and you said: "I

17 understood it that it could be RSK troops in the area."

18 Now, RSK troops, the presence of RSK troops and the presence of

19 RSK soldiers, is that the same as Serbian resistance for you, or is that

20 a different category?

21 A. I think it -- I think that it's -- that is what I meant with it.

22 Well, that's speculation, but of course if there still were Serb soldiers

23 in the area, it would be a resistance to the Croatian authorities.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when you use the term "resistance," you

25 would include in resistance ARSK troops that had left that -- had stayed

Page 3518

1 in that area.

2 Now, you told us that you were not aware of whether in mountains,

3 woods, or anywhere else, that you were not aware of the presence of Serb

4 resistance in the area which, as I now understand, includes the presence

5 of ARSK soldiers that had remained there or ARSK troops, perhaps I should

6 say.

7 You explained to us what you understood by a clean-up or a mop-up

8 operation and then a question was put to you, and I will read it

9 literally: "So your understanding of what a clean-up or mop-up operation

10 is is that there were RSK soldiers in the area and beyond that, you have

11 no idea of what the elements of that mop-up operation would be?" You

12 said, "That's right."

13 Now, let me try to analyse with you that question. You were

14 asked about your understanding of what a clean-up or mop-up operation is.

15 That was the first part of that question. And then it follows, it

16 continues in a rather factual way saying: "... is that there were RSK

17 soldiers in the area." Now, what I'd like to clarify with you is the

18 following. Were you saying that you understood a clean-up or a mop-up

19 operation to be an operation in which one would look for the presence of

20 RSK soldiers in the area or was it your understanding that the clean-up

21 and mop-up operations were directed to RSK soldiers of which you were

22 aware that they were present in the area?

23 A. I was not aware of any presence of RSK soldiers and my impression

24 was that the Croatian authority, the military were looking for resistance

25 in the area.

Page 3519

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. I have no further

2 questions for you.

3 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further

4 questions?

5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, I'd like to -- part of the

7 questions I have had to put today is because questions were -- the

8 questions I was seeking clarification is because it's not sufficiently

9 exceptional that facts are mixed up sometimes with conclusions or

10 opinions and that the questions are not clear enough in order to get the

11 best answers.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

13 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

14 Q. Mr. Elleby, you noted in response to a question by Judge Orie

15 that from mid-August to September there were occasional restrictions of

16 movement in the area; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's how I remember it.

18 Q. Were those restrictions of movement to the north as you move up

19 from Knin to Strmica and into -- moving in the direction of Bosnia?

20 A. As I remember it, yes, it was the area north of Knin.

21 MR. KEHOE: So it was the area north. I'll just take it from

22 there. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Where you confirmed that it was to the

24 north, I understand that to be that it was not to the south, although

25 that is not yet part of that answer. Is that well understood?

Page 3520

1 THE WITNESS: Yes. I remember those areas being in the north of

2 Knin.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, with the exclusion of the areas south of Knin.

4 Yes, that's how I understood it. That has now been confirmed.

5 Any further questions?

6 Then Mr. Elleby, this concludes your testimony in this court.

7 I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague and

8 for answering a long series of questions by the parties and by the Bench

9 and I wish you a safe trip home again.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to go through the -- meanwhile

14 consolidated list of P exhibits. I have on my list at this moment, and

15 I'll deal with it in terms of P numbers. First series is P218 to and

16 including P224 which are not yet admitted. If there are no specific

17 objections, P218 up to and including P224 are admitted into evidence.

18 P225 is already admitted into evidence. P226 and P227, I've not

19 heard of any specific objections and are therefore admitted into

20 evidence. A decision has already been made on P228, therefore, I

21 continue with P229 to and including P280. No further specific objections

22 which means that P229 to and including P280 are admitted into evidence.

23 A decision has been made already in relation to P281, that was admitted.

24 P282 still to be decided. No specific objections, then P282 is

25 admitted into evidence. P283 and P284 were admitted into evidence

Page 3521

1 already.

2 I think that is a complete list of the documents tendered by the

3 Prosecution. I do not know whether the --

4 MR. KEHOE: Judge, if I may.


6 MR. KEHOE: Just with regard to the -- obviously the -- that were

7 added to the list, of course we are reserving our objection. I guess it

8 was P253 and 262 that they were documents that he didn't know anything

9 about so it was just the same objection we had before. I understand

10 Your Honour has put in that notwithstanding that but ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll have to look at them again to see whether

12 there were any other reasons and apparently if a witness doesn't know

13 anything about it, often it comes down to sometimes the witness

14 recognising a type of a document and sometimes, that's at least the way I

15 experience it, it sometimes comes down to a document, an exhibit which

16 attempted is introduced through a witness and if the witness doesn't know

17 anything about, still it has some relevance and probative value as a

18 contemporaneous document and slips in more or less as a document tendered

19 from the bar table. That's what actually happens often.

20 If there is any specific -- apart from that the witness didn't

21 know anything about the documents --

22 MR. KEHOE: That's right.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- then we leave it as it is for the time being.

24 Then we received not yet and I'm not urging to do it at this very

25 moment, not -- a response by the Prosecution on the bundle of documents

Page 3522

1 tendered by Mr. Kay, tendered from the bar table. I think you said that

2 you had no objections. Yes.

3 MS. FROLICH: Yes, I did.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It might more be that the Chamber itself will still

5 need some time to check exactly because some translations were still

6 missing and even if the parties agree on relevance and probative value,

7 the Chamber usually has a look at it as well before it decides.

8 Is there any other procedural matter at this moment?

9 MR. KAY: It's just on that last collection of documents,

10 Your Honour, which we would urge a quick resolution to. The reason

11 being, it ties in with the evidence of the witness and we believe will

12 make it easier to manage affairs as one progresses through the

13 information --


15 MR. KAY: -- in this trial. If it's possible for the Court to do

16 that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try to give it priority. At the same time,

18 the Chamber needs to take some time now and then in order not to follow

19 the parties not considering itself what the Chamber is doing and

20 therefore I ask for a bit more time but we'll give it priority.

21 MR. KAY: It is granted, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Kay. Generosity is a good

23 thing, isn't it? I should think about that.

24 Anything else at this moment? For the next witness to be

25 called -- yes, Mr. Misetic.

Page 3523

1 MR. MISETIC: I just wasn't sure when you were talking about

2 procedural matters, Your Honour, there is a motion pending with respect

3 to the next witness, I believe, if I'm not mistaken.

4 JUDGE ORIE: There is a notification for the next witness if I'm

5 well aware but I do not know whether there's any motion pending for the

6 next witness. I know that there is a notification and I was just about

7 to come to that, that the next witness has been granted protective

8 measures in another case, that was face distortion, voice distortion, and

9 pseudonym. And that the Prosecution has notified us of the existence of

10 those protective measures and in accordance with the Rules, they will

11 remain effective in other cases as well unless rescinded, varied or

12 augmented and the notification included that the witness certainly did

13 not give any reasons to rescind or vary it and would rather prefer that

14 they stay as they are which is an automatism under the Rules. That's the

15 situation as far as I understand it. If that's what you were referring

16 to, Mr. Misetic.

17 MR. MISETIC: I wasn't sure what exact protective measures then

18 applied in this case and also there may have been another reason, if we

19 were going to discuss it, another reason for the protective measures.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I think the Rule is, but always have them with me,

21 that if protective measures are granted in one case, they automatically,

22 but if you could -- I'm just -- I was doing it from my -- let me just

23 see. This is Rule ...

24 MR. WAESPI: I think it's 75.

25 JUDGE ORIE: 75(F), "Once protective measures have been ordered

Page 3524

1 in respect of a victim or witness in any proceedings before the Tribunal,

2 such protective measures shall continue to have effect mutatis mutandis

3 in any other proceedings before the Tribunal or another jurisdiction

4 unless and until they are rescinded, varied or augmented." I think this

5 triple that was still clearly on my mind, rescinded, varied or augmented.

6 MR. MISETIC: Just for the record and I don't want to be

7 hyper-technical, I understood that to mean that the witness's testimony

8 in the case in which protective measures were granted would remain

9 covered by protective measures. I note for the record we do not object

10 to the protective measures but just as a procedural matter, and in terms

11 of the right to be heard or the parties.

12 JUDGE ORIE: It is not a continuation of protective measures,

13 let's say under Rule 92, I always forgot which is the paragraph that

14 deals with relying upon transcripts of earlier testimony. No, it is the

15 protection of the witness himself. That's at least how I understand this

16 Rule. If there's any dispute about this then I'd like to hear from the

17 parties not only that they disagree but also on the basis of what

18 authority they disagree.

19 MR. MISETIC: There is no disagreement.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we need sometime to have the protective

21 measures prepared. Yes, Mr. Waespi.

22 MR. WAESPI: If we could go into private session in relation to a

23 scheduling issue, in relation to the witness after next?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll turn into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 3525











11 Page 3525 redacted. Private session.















Page 3526

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. We'll then have a break

21 in which the set-up for the protective measures will be tested and we'll

22 then have one more session to go until a quarter to 2.00. We resume at

23 ten minutes past 12.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.45 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.13 p.m.

Page 3527

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 56.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I understand you can hear me in a

5 language you understand. Witness 56, we'll not call you by your own

6 name. Protective measures have been granted in respect of you that means

7 we will call you Witness 56. We'll avoid whatever identifying

8 information during your public testimony and further, your face cannot be

9 seen outside of this courtroom and your voice is distorted as well.

10 Witness 56, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

11 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

12 will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

13 Madam Usher now hands out to you the text. May I invite you to

14 make that solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness 56. Please be seated.

20 Will it be you, Ms. Gustafson, who examines the witness?

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: You will now be examined by Ms. Gustafson who is

23 counsel for the Prosecution.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Can we start by showing the witness the pseudonym

25 sheet which is 65 ter number 5166.

Page 3528

1 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal not to be shown to the public.

2 Examination by Ms. Gustafson:

3 Q. Witness 56, is that your correct name and birth date on that

4 sheet?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, before I begin my

6 testimony, might I be allowed to state, to express my sympathies with

7 General Gotovina over his father's death.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have not dealt with this matter in open

9 court. I appreciate what you just have said.

10 Please proceed.

11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness 56, do you recognise your correct name and birth date on

13 that sheet in front of you on the screen before you?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. Could that be given an exhibit

16 number, Your Honour.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P285, under

18 seal.

19 JUDGE ORIE: P285 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.

20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could the witness be shown 65 ter number 4862 and

21 if he could be provided with a hard copy of his four statements in B/C/S.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Gustafson, I take it also not to be shown

23 to the public.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness 56, do you recognise the statement you see on the screen

Page 3529

1 and the first one you have?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is that a statement that you made and signed on the 3rd of

4 December, 1996?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 MS. GUSTAFSON: And could the witness be shown 65 ter number

7 4863, again not to be shown to the public.

8 Q. Do you recognise the statement on the screen now as the one you

9 made and signed on the 18th of September, 2000?

10 A. Yes, I do recognise that and do acknowledge it.

11 MS. GUSTAFSON: And could the witness now be shown 65 ter number

12 4864, again not to be shown to the public.

13 Q. Do you recognise this statement as one that you made and signed

14 on the 12th of June, 2007?

15 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

16 MS. GUSTAFSON: And finally, if the witness could be shown 65 ter

17 number 5167, again not to be shown to the public.

18 Q. Do you recognise this as a statement you made on the 21st of May,

19 2008?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. And do these four statements accurately reflect what you said at

22 the time that they were taken?

23 A. Yes, they do.

24 Q. And taken together, do these -- are these four statements true

25 and accurate to the best of your knowledge?

Page 3530

1 A. Yes, they are.

2 Q. And if I asked you today in court the same questions you were

3 asked when you gave those statements, would you give the Court the same

4 answers that are in those statements?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd like to tender those four statements into

7 evidence, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, the Chamber was informed that the

9 2000 statement would be redacted, that some portions would be taken out.

10 Is that -- or would you like to tender the full statement?

11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, that's correct and the one that the

12 witness was shown and the one that's under 65 ter 4863 is redacted

13 pursuant to that agreement.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you only show me the cover page and since

15 we have those -- we have not got those numbers, the Chamber cannot

16 observe that, but I do understand then that -- I think it's from page 2,

17 the second half of page 2 of the statement that there, that's the portion

18 of the content that is -- that you are seeking to tender.

19 Then I take it that the Chamber has to understand the 2008

20 statement in such a way that to the extent that it corrects what was

21 earlier said, that to that extent, the earlier statement is not accurate,

22 it may reflect what the witness said but is not to the best of his

23 recollection what is the truth and therefore, we focus on that last

24 statement, if it comes to corrections of earlier statements.

25 Mr. Misetic.

Page 3531

1 MR. MISETIC: I just wish to be clear. Your Honour, you said you

2 believe it starts from the second half of page 2.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Seven, I think I may have misspoken, I had 7 on my

4 mind.

5 MR. MISETIC: Okay, thank you, Your Honour.

6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I heard two as well.

7 So, it is page 7.

8 JUDGE ORIE: So most likely I had misspoken.

9 So any objections?

10 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Registrar, numbers for the statements.

12 Let's start with the start with the first one mentioned by Ms. Gustafson,

13 the 1996 statement would be --

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that's 65 ter 04862 and this

15 becomes Exhibit P286.

16 JUDGE ORIE: P286 is admitted into evidence. The next one is the

17 redacted August and September 2000 statement.

18 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 04863 becomes Exhibit P287,

19 Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: P287 is admitted into evidence. The third one, the

21 statement of June 2007.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That's 65 ter 04864 and that becomes

23 Exhibit P288, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: P288 is admitted into evidence. And then finally,

25 the 2008 statement, the supplemental statement.

Page 3532

1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, that's 65 ter 05167 and that

2 becomes Exhibit P289.

3 JUDGE ORIE: P289 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed,

4 Ms. Gustafson.

5 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd like to start with reading a brief summary of

6 the witness's Rule 92 ter statement.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You'll explain to the witness what the purpose of

8 this is.


10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

11 MS. GUSTAFSON: (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Prior to Operation Storm, aside from elderly males and a few men working

14 in essential civilian posts, the population of Knin was predominantly

15 made up of women and children. Most military-aged males were at the

16 front line.

17 Witness 56 described the 3rd of August, 1995, as a normal day in

18 Knin. On the 4th of August, 1995, Witness 56 was woken by the sound of

19 explosions at 5.00 a.m. After approximately half an hour, he made his

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 shelled. During the day, Witness 56 observed shells falling in Knin as

23 well as shelling damage.

24 During the night of 4th August, 1995, and the early hours of 5th

25 August, Witness 56 travelled from Knin to Benkovac and back towards Knin.

Page 3533

1 In Benkovac, he saw several houses on fire and columns of people moving

2 in the direction of Kistanje. On the way back to Knin, he stopped at the

3 villages of Kistanje and Djevrske which were virtually empty. Witness 56

4 was told by people there that those villages had been shelled.

5 Witness 56 was not able to reenter Knin in the early morning of

6 5th August because the road was blocked by vehicles going in the opposite

7 direction. He was forced to follow the convoy leading towards Otric. He

8 eventually reached Bosanski Petrovac at approximately 1900 hours on the

9 5th of August of, 1995. On about 7th or 8th August, 1995, while he was

10 in Bosanski Petrovac, Witness 56 saw evidence of the convoy being bombed

11 as it was moving towards Bravsko.

12 That concludes the summary, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first give the interpreters and transcribers

14 one second to breathe and to -- Mr. Misetic.

15 MR. MISETIC: If we could just move into private session for a

16 minute, Your Honour, please.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

18 [Private session]

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Page 3534











11 Page 3534 redacted. Private session.















Page 3535

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10 JUDGE ORIE: During the private session, the Court has instructed

11 the registry to remove from the public record what was said about the

12 professional activity of this witness. The public in this courtroom who

13 has heard this portion of the testimony is ordered and instructed to keep

14 this confidential, that is, to share it with no one, to not speak about

15 this portion of this summary.

16 We now move into private session again.

17 [Private session]

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Page 3536











11 Pages 3536-3537 redacted. Private session.















Page 3538

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24 [Open session]

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

Page 3539

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.


4 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about the 4th of August

5 and the things that you observed in Knin on the 4th of August. At page 4

6 of your first statement, you describe how when the shelling began, you

7 went to the basement of your apartment building and you stayed there with

8 some other tenants for about half an hour and you tried to leave two or

9 three times before you finally managed to get into your car and drive to

10 your place of work.

11 Now, when you said that you tried to leave the basement these two

12 or three times, what do you mean by that? How far did you manage to get

13 before you had to return to the basement?

14 A. Well, while I was in the basement, shelling -- shells were

15 falling and when there was a lull and a break and nothing was heard, then

16 I tried to leave the basement but as I did so, firing would be heard

17 again and as I didn't know what the target was, I would go back to the

18 basement where I stayed for half an hour and only then managed to leave

19 and get into my car and reach the station.

20 Q. And of the 20 or so other people in the basement, did anyone else

21 leave while you were there?

22 A. No, nobody left except me because the others were mostly women

23 and children and the building itself was a new one with new residents so

24 all the tenants were my colleagues who were up at their positions so that

25 the women and children didn't actually need to leave the building whereas

Page 3540

1 I had my assignment of going to work, to my work post. I felt the need

2 to be there.

3 Q. And while you were in the basement with these women and children,

4 what was the atmosphere? What was the emotional state of the people in

5 the basement?

6 A. Well, the emotional state was that they were frightened and

7 filled with uncertainty and that's normal when you hear shelling all

8 around, nobody can feel normal or not feel something. Everybody is

9 afraid for their lives.

10 Q. And what about the other people you interacted with throughout

11 the day in Knin? How were people reacting to the shelling? What was

12 their emotional or psychological state at the time?

13 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if we could just get clarity in the

14 question as to which type of people. I think in the statements we see he

15 interacted with various categories of people.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please clarify, Ms. Gustafson.


18 Q. I'm talking about members of the public, not people that you

19 interacted with on any official basis, civilians in Knin that you spoke

20 with throughout the day or interacted with?

21 A. Well, that day I had a number of meetings with civilians, not

22 many, but whoever I met, all of them were very afraid and had this

23 presentiment of something bad happening and they were expecting this

24 happen and thought it might -- something bad would happen to them.

25 Q. What was their reaction, if any, to the shelling that was going

Page 3541

1 on?

2 A. Well, all of them felt insecure. They felt afraid. And the

3 essential thing was to save their lives and not come under the effects of

4 any shelling, to remain alive.

5 Q. And in your most recent statement at paragraph 1(A), you said

6 that at about 1300 hours on the 4th, you began to see convoys of people

7 moving through Knin from the areas of Vrlika and Drnis. Did you start to

8 see people leaving the town of Knin itself at some point that day?

9 A. It was difficult to differentiate between people who were from

10 Knin and others who were from Vrlika and Drnis because the roads leading

11 from Vrlika and Drnis cross at one point, there is a crossroads and they

12 pass through the town of Knin itself so it was difficult to say whether

13 they belonged to a part of town, Knin town, or whether they might be from

14 Drnis and were on their way from Drnis. So whether they belonged to

15 Vrlika, the people coming from Vrlika or from Knin, it was difficult for

16 me to differentiate because I didn't know the civilians much in that

17 town.

18 Q. That's fine. In your statements, you describe the route that the

19 convoy took out of Knin and out of the Krajina and you described it as

20 being through Pasina, Otric, Srb, and Martinbrod and you also described

21 the route as being crowded and the convoy moving very slowly. This is

22 primarily at page 8 of your first statement.

23 I'd like to ask you, as far as you know, was this the only route

24 that people were taking out of the Krajina or were there others?

25 A. This route that you mentioned, the road was in the part where I

Page 3542

1 spoke about Dalmatia and a part of Lika. So when speaking of Dalmatia

2 and Lika, this is the only real road where civilians could pull out that

3 we knew of then.

4 In addition, I can also say that I used a mountain or actually a

5 forest path that I hadn't known before but I was told of this path by

6 some friends of mine but most of these civilians, they -- all of these

7 civilians, they went towards Srb and Martinbrod taking this road.

8 Q. You said this was the only road where civilians could pull out.

9 What do you mean by that? Why was that the only one that they could pull

10 out of?

11 A. Because all the other roads and crossings were checked by the

12 Croatian army.

13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we move into private session for a moment

14 for the next question.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

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Page 3543

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


18 Q. At page 8 of your first statement, you describe going from Knin

19 to Benkovac in the early hours of the 5th of August. And in your 2007

20 statement at paragraph 26, you explain that you could not assess the

21 shelling damage to the town because it was dark but you saw a few houses

22 on fire. My question is: When you were in Benkovac, did you learn

23 anything about whether or not anyone had been injured or killed in the

24 shelling there?

25 A. When I arrived in Benkovac, I looked for my family members. I

Page 3544

1 couldn't find them so I went to the police station where I found several

2 men and since there was a power shortage, it was dark and they were

3 looking for fuel for their cars and in conversation with them I heard the

4 civilians had moved inland. No one really knew where exactly where to

5 but they were mentioning some villages in -- near Bukovica but they

6 couldn't tell me whether there was any casualties, any injured or killed

7 people as a result of the shelling on the previous day.

8 Q. At page 8 of your first statement you described stopping in

9 Kistanje and Djverske on your way back to Knin from Benkovac. And you

10 stated that everything was empty in those places and you were told by men

11 on the street that those two places had been shelled. Can you describe

12 what you mean by the phrase "everything was empty in those two places"?

13 A. When we stopped in Djeverske and then in Kistanje after that, I

14 sought to find some family members but I couldn't find them or their

15 neighbours because I wanted to ask them if they knew where they were.

16 And as for the people that I saw on the roads in Kistanje, there was some

17 people standing around probably waiting for some family members to join

18 them or maybe waiting for someone to pick them up or going about their

19 business and they told me then that these towns should be abandoned

20 because both Kistanje and Djeverske had been shelled the previous day.

21 They didn't tell me how severe the shelling was but there was shelling

22 and that we should leave those places so that no one would get killed in

23 the shelling. And then I went on on my way to Padjani.

24 Q. What was the approximate size in terms of population of those two

25 places of Kistanje and Djeverske at that time immediately prior to the

Page 3545

1 operation?

2 A. I couldn't tell you exactly what the number was. Kistanje was

3 larger than Djeverske, it probably numbered some 1500 inhabitants. And

4 as for Djeverske, it was to the south of Kistanje and with the hamlets

5 around it they probably numbered around 1.000 inhabitants or so.

6 Q. And were you aware of any military installations or equipment or

7 anything you considered a military target in either Kistanje or

8 Djeverske?

9 A. As far as I know, there were no military installations in

10 Kistanje or artillery positions for long-range artillery, and the same is

11 true of Djeverske, but not far from Djeverske, there was a facility, a

12 brigade command, it was to the south of Djeverske, some couple of

13 kilometres, maybe two or three to the south.

14 Q. You said in Kistanje, "There were no military installations in

15 Kistanje or artillery positions for long-range artillery," was there any

16 artillery positioning in Kistanje?

17 A. As far as I know, no.

18 Q. And in your first statement, and this is at the top of page 9,

19 you describe the convoy as being mostly civilian but you said that there

20 were some military personnel and vehicles in the convoy. From what you

21 were able to observe of the convoy, were the military vehicles moving

22 together in an organised way or were they more interspersed with the

23 civilian vehicles?

24 A. As far as I could observe on the road both from Knin to Benkovac

25 and from Benkovac back, and then to Padjani and to Srb as far as I went

Page 3546

1 to the convoy and drove with them, I couldn't see an organised military

2 convoy. They were all interspersed with civilian vehicles that was used

3 by both civilians and the military. They were all intermingled.

4 Q. And in your statements and in your first statement at page 9 and

5 in paragraph 35 of your 2007 statement, you described visiting a location

6 where the convoy had been bombed on the road from Petrovac to Bravsko on

7 about the 7th or 8th of August and you described that you saw two trucks

8 and several cars that had been hit. Were any of these vehicles that had

9 been hit military vehicles, as far as you could tell?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And where was this location exactly? Approximately how many

12 kilometres out of Petrovac towards Bravsko?

13 A. I couldn't tell you with any precision but as far as I can

14 recall, this was a valley where the road ran and this was about 12, 13,

15 perhaps 15 kilometres from Petrovac to Bravsko, towards Bravsko.

16 Q. Earlier in your testimony, you said that you couldn't find your

17 family in Benkovac. Who in your family was living in Benkovac at that

18 time?

19 A. At this time, my wife and her family lived in Benkovac.

20 Q. And why were you not able to find them there on the night of the

21 4th and the early hours of the 5th of August?

22 A. Because when I arrived there, they had already left the house

23 where they lived and gone inland and then later on to Srb and Martinbrod.

24 Q. Did they follow the same route that you described earlier that

25 the convoy took, if you know?

Page 3547

1 A. Yes, they used the same road.

2 Q. In your most recent statement at page 4, you said that at the

3 time right before Operation Storm, there were Serb refugees living in the

4 St. Ante monastery in Knin. How long had those refugees been living

5 there, if you know?

6 A. The St. Ante monastery in Knin was used by refugees in part and I

7 don't know exactly the number of families that lived there but I knew

8 some them because they were from my village and they had lived there

9 since 1991.

10 Q. In your first statement at the top of page 9, you stated that,

11 "At this time -- in the early hours of the 5th of August, almost all of

12 the 80.000 people living in Dalmatia were trying to leave the area." I'd

13 like to ask you what's the basis for your conclusion that almost all of

14 the people living in Dalmatia were trying to leave the area at the time?

15 A. Well, the main reason that they were leaving the area was that

16 the lines of defence had been broken through, that we could not keep --

17 defend that area any longer so that was the reason for leaving.

18 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to ask that he be allowed to finish the

19 answer.

20 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's fine, Your Honour, I just -- he wasn't

21 really addressing the question that was why I stopped him.

22 MR. MISETIC: The answer is important and he should be allowed to

23 complete it.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have no objection, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson interrupted you when you were

Page 3548

1 answering the question about the basis for your conclusion that almost

2 all of the people living in Dalmatia were trying to leave the area at the

3 time.

4 You told us that the main reason was that the lines of defence

5 had been broken through and that you could not keep, not defend that area

6 any longer so that was the reason for leaving.

7 Is there anything you would like to add to that?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to add that in my

9 conversations both with able-bodied men and with civilians, and of course

10 these were two different groups of men, there was a difference whether

11 they were leaving on the 4th or on the 5th of August. So when

12 Western Slavonia fell during Operation Flash, and when this was shown on

13 TV Krajina and also broadcast on TV Belgrade and TV Banja Luka, many

14 people who actually survived this, they told horror stories on how they

15 actually had to flee the area to save their lives. So that the people in

16 Dalmatia had this image before them, they were afraid for their lives and

17 this is why they were leaving the area. This was the main reason why

18 they were leaving because they could no longer feel secure there.


20 Q. And what were the things that you saw and heard on the 4th and

21 5th of August that led you to conclude that almost everyone was leaving?

22 I'm talking about your actual observations.

23 A. People were afraid for their own life and they were leaving the

24 area. They were afraid of the shelling. And their only desire was to

25 save their lives and the simplest way to do that was to simply move away

Page 3549

1 from the front line towards Srb which was the only way out of there.

2 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, I have no further questions,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson. Mr. Misetic. It will be

5 the Gotovina Defence who will cross-examine you first.

6 Witness 56, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Misetic who is

7 counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

9 Q. Witness 56, good afternoon.

10 A. Good afternoon.

11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if we could now move into private

12 session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

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Page 3550











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9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: We will resume on Monday, the 26th of May at 9.00 in

12 this same courtroom but before we adjourn, I'd like to add that the

13 Exhibits P286, P287, P288, and P289 which the Chamber decided to admit

14 are admitted under seal.

15 We stand adjourned.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.

17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of May,

18 2008, at 9.00 a.m.