1 Thursday, 29 May 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution calls
14 Colonel Jacques Morneau.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into
16 the courtroom.
17 No protective measures, I take it from --
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Morneau. Before you give evidence
22 in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a
23 solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
24 nothing but the truth. I'd like to invite you to make that solemn
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated.
4 [Interpretation] Did you decide to testify in English?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation] Therefore, we will continue in
8 [In English] Mr. Morneau, you'll first be examined by
9 Ms. Mahindaratne, who is counsel for the Prosecution. I add to that that
10 I address you as Mr. Morneau. That is not because of any disrespect for
11 your military rank, but since in this Chamber we address persons,
12 individuals, as -- in their primary capacity as persons coming to tell us
13 the truth, and therefore military ranks are as such not of any
14 importance. Don't understand it as any disrespect. And others might
15 choose to do otherwise.
16 Ms. Mahindaratne.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 WITNESS: JACQUES MORNEAU
19 Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
20 Q. Good morning, Colonel Morneau.
21 A. Good morning.
22 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record.
23 A. Colonel Jacques Morneau.
24 Q. Did you provide three statements to the Office of the Prosecutor,
25 the first one being on 26th and 27th August, 1996; the second one on 25th
1 November, 2003; and the third one on 25th February 2008?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, yesterday did you have the opportunity to examine all three
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you find the contents of those statements, that the contents
7 accurately reflected what you had stated to the members of the Office of
8 the Prosecutor on those three occasions?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. May I call for document 5159, please, on the screen.
11 Colonel, are the contents of your statements, all three
12 statements, true to the best of your knowledge?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if you were asked the questions that were asked of you by
15 the members of the Office of the Prosecutor on those three occasions
16 today in court, would your responses be the same as those reflected in
17 your three statements?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Colonel, would you please look at the screen in front of you. Is
20 that your statement of 26th and 27th August, 1996.
21 And if you could just move to the signature page, Mr. Registrar.
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this in evidence,
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, from written submissions the Chamber
1 understands that there are no objections from any party.
2 Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P308.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P308 is admitted into evidence.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 May I call for document number 5160, please.
7 Q. Colonel Morneau, there will be another document coming up on your
8 screen. If you could identify that this is your statement of 25th
9 November 2003 for the record.
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And if we could move to the signature page.
12 Mr. President, may I tender this statement in evidence, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I make the same observation as in relation to the
14 previous document.
15 Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P309.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P309, the November 2003 statement of the witness is
18 admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can I call for document number 5161 on the
21 screen, please.
22 Q. And, Colonel Morneau, you'll have the third statement also coming
23 up on your screen. If you could identify that it is your statement of
24 25th February 2008
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if the document could be given
2 a P number, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Same observation as in relation to the two previous
4 documents, that is, no objections.
5 Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P310, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P310 is admitted into evidence.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Colonel Morneau, at the time you made the supplementary
10 statement, that is the third one, on 25th February 2008, did you examine
11 a number of documents, most of which were reports submitted to you by
12 CanBat personnel on their observations during Operation Storm and its
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At the same time did you also examine some photographs and a
16 sketch map?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, did you have the opportunity to look at those documents
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are you satisfied that the contents of those documents are
22 accurate and true to the best of your knowledge?
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, five documents, a set of
25 photographs and a sketched map was tendered by the 92 ter summary -- I
1 beg your pardon, 92 ter submission. If they could be given a sequential
2 P numbering.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think we have to go through it step by step.
4 There were two documents which were not yet on your 65 ter list, although
5 you announced initially that it would be four but then you reported that
6 two of them were mentioned by mistake. The Defence submissions make
7 clear that there's no objection against adding the 65 ter -- the two
8 documents which were not yet on the 65 ter list, to add them to the 65
9 ter list. Therefore, that request as we find it in your 92 ter motion is
11 Now we come to the next step, that is whether there are any
12 objections against the documents. Perhaps we go through them one by one.
13 If you would first -- mention the first one, we'll invite Mr. Registrar.
14 We'll then ask the Defence whether there's any objection. We'll invite
15 Mr. Registrar to assign a number to it.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Very good, Mr. President.
17 May I call for document number 167, please.
18 Mr. President, I have a couple of questions with regard to these
19 documents. To save time should I also take the opportunity then, since
20 the document is up on the screen, to ask the witness --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that saves time in getting it off the screen
22 and getting it on the screen again. But let's first look at 65 ter 167.
23 Any objections? No objections. Then, Mr. Registrar, that would
24 be number ... ?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P311, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: P311 is admitted into evidence.
2 Ms. Mahindaratne, if you want to put questions to the witness,
3 please do so.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
5 Q. Colonel Morneau, is this a report submitted to you by CanBat
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you state as to who compiled this report?
9 A. That was my section of military information within the battalion.
10 Q. And what is the manner or what is the basis on which the data
11 reported in this report was collected?
12 A. I mean, within the battalion we do reports at all levels, at the
13 observation post level they log their own information, at the company
14 levels they log their own information, at the battalion headquarter level
15 they log their own information. As part of the function of that military
16 information section is to collect that information and try to make sense
17 of the information they gather from all the different sources within the
18 battalion and then they produce reports.
19 Q. And how do you ensure that the contents or the data reported in
20 these reports are accurate?
21 A. I mean, within the battalion structure, I mean we have the --
22 that section of the military information section, and that is they
23 report -- normally the ops officer was a second source to -- would
24 double-check the work of that section and also the company commander of
25 that support company verified information. And within the battalion
1 itself, myself I come across a number of facts or evidence or information
2 that talking or visiting my companies so I can cross-check some of that
3 information when they send a report to, if it makes sense to me or not
4 then I can assess that, yes, that the information is accurate or not.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated].
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
8 Q. And this report was submitted to you in the course of ordinary
9 course of business or did you specifically order your subordinate
10 personnel to submit this report to you?
11 A. I asked following the offensive operations that we witnessed in
12 the beginning of August to make up a report to I will say register what
13 happened because memories fade away quickly and the writing stays. So I
14 asked the officers to put down on paper what their recollection of the
15 incidents that happened.
16 Q. What did you do with this report?
17 A. I mean, that was a report that we used to inform our superior
18 headquarters, at the sector headquarters and also on the national level,
19 I mean we had to inform our own nationalities about what happened in this
20 event because as a Canadian military organization we have what we call a
21 war diaries and we have information that we have to produce for our own
22 archives in Canada
24 Q. So are you saying you submitted or forwarded this report onwards
25 to your superior command?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document number 313, please.
3 Mr. President, may I ask the questions before it's admitted into
4 evidence, because I had put this document into context before it's
5 admitted into evidence. May I ask a couple of questions from the
7 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objection. Please do so.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Colonel Morneau, this document doesn't have a heading and it
10 looks as if it's a continuation of another document. Is it correct to
11 say that this is a continuation of the previous document, P311?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may it be given a P number,
15 JUDGE ORIE: No objections -- I hear of no objections.
16 Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P312.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P312 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
23 Q. Colonel Morneau, could you please turn to paragraph 30, look at
24 paragraph 30 of this document and on the screen if we could have page 3,
25 on the B/C/S version also it's the same page. Next page, actually, I'm
1 sorry, it should be page 4. It should be -- we should go on to paragraph
2 30. Thank you.
3 There's a report here, Colonel, that following the operation,
4 specialised units were seen wearing black Balaclavas and that they were
5 seen going from house to house in mop-up operations. And it's also
6 recorded during this period afterwards not allowed --
7 MR. KEHOE: I object to that, Your Honour. Excuse me, Colonel.
8 It doesn't say they saw that at all.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When such objections are raised you're invited to
10 quote literally from what the document says.
11 Apart from that, Ms. Mahindaratne, I do not see any B/C/S version
12 of this document uploaded on the system.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, we had --
14 JUDGE ORIE: There was from the previous one, so you say this is
15 the continuation of the previous document. Where is the continuation of
16 the B/C/S?
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's a good question, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Try to --
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I beg your pardon.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- find it. Once you find it, take care that it's
21 uploaded and if the Defence have any problems with it, practical
22 problems, then they're invited to advised me.
23 You may proceed.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. It says -- let me read it to you and perhaps you can read it to
1 yourself, Colonel.
2 "Following the success of the units at the front, specialised
3 units wearing black Balaclavas went from house to house to mop up.
4 During this period, our troops were not allowed to patrol the sectors.
5 We suspect that civilians were quite simply killed."
6 Now, Colonel, do you recall that particular report?
7 A. I recall that report, yes.
8 Q. And the reference to black Balaclavas, is it something like a ski
9 mask covering the face?
10 A. That's my understanding, yes.
11 Q. Could you recall what was reported to you on this matter?
12 A. On this matter -- I mean, again that military section, when they
13 do prepare that report they collect information from all the different
14 sources they can have. And like I said, they went and consulted and
15 interviewed also the people in the different companies throughout the
16 battalion, and when they make up their report some of the elements of the
17 battalion reported that they saw that kind of units at the front lines of
18 the troops, that they were going and searching houses and they were
19 covered with Balaclavas.
20 Q. Were you informed as to, when you say units, what forces these
21 units belonged to?
22 A. When I unit or subunit it is part of the different companies
23 within the battalion or platoons or OPs, I mean the intelligence section.
24 When they do their work I mean they are always in constant communications
25 with different element of the battalion.
1 Q. Colonel, I think you misunderstood my question. I was referring
2 to the specialised units which was seen moving - I'm sorry, I withdraw
3 the word - just reported to be moving from house to house wearing
4 Balaclavas. Now, did you have information as to which forces these units
5 belonged to?
6 A. What it was not a specific unit but they were reported as being
7 special force, special force following the front -- the front units, that
8 they were special units especially for those specific tasks of clearing
9 out houses after the front troops have passed through the area.
10 Q. When I say "units," I'm not asking for you to identify what units
11 they were. I'm asking -- when I use the word which forces, is it the
12 military or the Ministry of the Interior or some other form of forces?
13 A. It was a Croat army.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
15 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Judge, if we ask for some clarification on
16 the actual unit that they're talking about.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the witness has stated that he
19 can't identify the unit. My question is as to which forces, whether it's
20 the military, the Ministry of the Interior, or some other force that is
21 referred to by specialised units. That was my question.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Your Honour, but in the spirit of
24 clarification, putting what unit this is, a unit operating within the
25 military structure is extremely important to the defence of my client.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. KEHOE: As opposed to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you can seek further clarification in
5 MR. KAY: Yes, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
8 Q. Colonel, do you want me to repeat the question or can you
10 A. You can repeat if you want and I can --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. It will be more clarity in the answer I'm going to give to you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Objections are heard by a witness as well. So if
14 there's anything that spontaneously comes to your mind which would also
15 meet some of the concerns of Mr. Kehoe. I'm not keeping you off from not
16 expressing yourself.
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
19 Q. Colonel, if you could say as to whether you had information as to
20 what forces as in -- whether they were -- these were military or Ministry
21 of the Interior or some other forces; and if you have information about
22 exactly what these units were, as Mr. Kehoe just raised, would you please
23 inform us.
24 A. Okay, sure. When you read that paragraph 30 in that document, if
25 you go back in that section, that section was titled: Tactics of Croat
1 observed the Croat forces. So what we are talking about here about the
2 units, those were Croat units that were advancing as part of the
3 Operation Storm. Those were the front line units. What I refer and the
4 text refers to there: "Following the success of the units at the front,
5 those were Croats army units at front. Then they were followed by
6 specialise unit. And the term that we used to call those specialised
7 units, in 1995 we call them special force units and they were wearing
8 Balaclavas. Those were the units behind the normal I will say the foot
9 soldiers of the Croat army, but they were more specialised unit.
10 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for document 1731, please, on the
13 Q. Colonel, I think we have the French version now on the screen and
14 we have the English --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, I was informed that we will
16 proceed as follows, that two versions of documents that are originally in
17 French will be uploaded in the system, that is, that finally the English
18 translation and a B/C/S version will be used in court. Not out of
19 disrespect of the French language, of course. But since the originals
20 are in French, I do not mind if the witness is shown the French original
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, we have -- if the witness
23 wishes to go through the originals, we have hard copies which the witness
24 can be provided with. And for the benefit of everybody else in court we
25 could have the English and the B/C/S on the screen.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar informs me, and I'll check it
3 immediately, that although there should be a B/C/S version uploaded in
4 e-court that there is not actually. And if I look at the source and
5 attachment documents, I see there are only two versions, that is, the
6 French and the B/C/S. Let me just see the original ...
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I misspoke. As I said before, it's the French
9 original and the English translation.
10 Ms. Mahindaratne, you should take care that a B/C/S version is
11 available as soon as possible.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If it causes any practical problems for the Defence
14 teams, they're invited to address me.
15 Please proceed.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Just to inform you,
17 Mr. President, the B/C/S versions have been served on the Defence, but I
18 will certainly --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is -- that helps certainly the Defence
20 teams, but might not, for example, help the B/C/S speaking part of the
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if we could find out how we were
23 served that would be appreciated.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we go that during the first break or is
25 there --
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's fine.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, you are invited to inform the
3 Defence how they were served.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I'll do that.
5 Q. Colonel Morneau, is this a report submitted to you by CanBat
7 A. Yes, it was produced by Charlie Company.
8 Q. And this is a chronological record of events during Operation
9 Storm; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Who compiled this report or record?
12 A. That was the headquarter of the Charlie Company. Like I said
13 earlier, I -- as part of normal procedure in operations, that each
14 organization, they have duty personnel 24/7 and they log every
15 communications or events in -- happening in their own jurisdiction. And
16 in this instance Charlie Company, they logged what they do during the
17 operation and then they make that, I will say, summary of events.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this document in
19 evidence, please?
20 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
21 Then, Mr. Registrar.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P313, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P313 is admitted into evidence.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 May I call for document number 2563, please.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: During the break you may explain also where the
3 B/C/S version of this document is, Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I will.
5 Q. Colonel Morneau, can you identify what this document is?
6 A. Yes. That is the sequential events prepared by the headquartered
7 company, and the headquartered company is the company at the battalion
8 level where my ops officer is working.
9 Q. And was this submitted to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you forward this onwards to your superior command?
12 A. My recollection, yes.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this document in
14 evidence, please?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Since I hear of no objection at this moment.
16 Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P314, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P314 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 May I call up document number 3247, please. It's a set of
22 photographs. I'm sorry, it's not a set of photographs. It's a report.
23 I beg your pardon.
24 Q. Colonel Morneau, you have testified about observing the body of a
25 killed civilian on 9th August in your statements. Is that an accurate
1 report of that incident?
2 A. Yeah. The only comment I will put on timing at the 620, I think
3 it's quite correct. The 645, it is around that time, it may be a little
4 bit later than that that -- when physically I reach the location of the
6 Q. Colonel Morneau, it's not 6, it's 1620 16?
7 A. 16.
8 Q. Is that what you mean to say?
9 A. 1620 was the first time I saw the individual in the -- at the
10 ends of the Croatian police, but the one after that, 1645, I was informed
11 to return to the location, that timing I cannot say how precise it is. I
12 mean, it's roughly about that, about 45, which is 25 minutes after I saw
13 it; but I thought it was a bit maybe 35, 45 minutes after.
14 Q. Who has compiled this report?
15 A. That was the military police section.
16 Q. Of the Canadian Battalion?
17 A. Yeah.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this document in
20 evidence, please?
21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
22 Mr. Registrar, that would be number ... ?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P315, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P315 is admitted into evidence.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up document 3254, please.
1 I'm sorry, it's the same document that's coming up. It should be
2 a set of photographs.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is 65 ter number 03254 in
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: With previous 65 ter number 3247. I'm sorry,
6 it does -- got mixed up. Very well.
7 We'll stick to -- if I could call then for P315.
8 I beg your pardon, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We have at this moment a series of photographs on
10 our screen.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, but what has happened is
12 the photographs got attached to the report. So I will stick to P315 and
13 get the witness to confirm the photographs which is at page 2 and 3.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar is nodding in a different direction.
15 Mr. Registrar, could you assist Ms. Mahindaratne?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe the photographs being
17 referenced were in the second 65 ter number given by counsel, which would
18 be 3254.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But we have 3254 on our screens.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you for that, Mr. Registrar.
21 Q. Colonel Morneau, are these the photographs of the body you saw
22 pertaining to which we just looked at a report which is marked and
23 entered into evidence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who took these photographs?
1 A. It was either the battalion photograph or the military police
2 themselves, I cannot recall exactly. It's one of the two, because we had
3 photograph at the battalions, that also MPs they have cameras to make
4 pictures of incidents to gather evidence. And those one, I cannot tell
5 whether it was the MP or the battalion photograph, but certainly it was
6 taken by one of the two.
7 Q. And do you note that near the body there is a canvass bag?
8 A. Yes, there is a canvass bag that that old gentleman was carrying.
9 The first time I saw him by the check-point of the Croatian police I
10 suspect it was his own personal belonging in that canvass bag and then --
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Can we move on to the next page, please, where
13 there's another three sets of photographs I think. And I think there is
14 a third page. Thank you.
15 Mr. President, may these photographs be tendered into evidence?
16 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
17 Now let's try to get things clear and I'll just check. If you
18 give me one moment, Ms. Mahindaratne.
19 These photographs as they are now uploaded in e-court, that's a
20 document of four pages, the first page is the report, and then three
21 pages with in total nine photograph.
22 Mr. Registrar, is there a chance that we have now the report, if
23 we would admit this document twice in evidence and then one of these
24 reports, that is one of the reports, P315, not with the photographs and
25 what I take it will become P313 -- 16 to be the report plus three pages
1 of photographs.
2 Mr. Registrar, is that the situation we're in at this moment?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that's exactly right.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore I suggest that P315, that the document
5 uploaded will now be replaced by the document that's now uploaded on our
6 screen, that's the report plus three pages in total, nine photographs.
7 And then since there are no objections against the photographs to be
8 attached to the report, we have now the report, a one-page report and
9 three pages of photographs admitted under P315.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up document -- Mr. President, those
13 are the documents tendered in the 92 ter submission. May I proceed with
14 the rest of the --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I be permitted to read a
17 brief summary of the 92 ter submission?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that you have explained to
19 Mr. Morneau what the purpose of this reading out is?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
23 Q. "Colonel Jacques Morneau was a battalion commander of the
24 Canadian battalion referred to as CanBat 1 stationed in the United
25 Nations Sector South within the Krajina from 3rd April to 6th September
1 1995. He commanded the battalion of 800 personnel, whose principal task
2 was to observe and report on the events within the CanBat area of
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Sorry.
6 "Colonel Morneau witnessed systematic looting" --
7 JUDGE ORIE: One --
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: -- "of houses and farms by soldiers, members
9 of the military police, and civilians, as well as burning houses in the
10 aftermath of Operation Storm. He further saw a body of an elderly
11 civilian who was seen in the custody of Croatian civilian police
12 immediately prior to his death. Colonel Morneau describes the shelling
13 of the CanBat observation posts and the capture of CanBat personnel
14 attached to the observation posts by the Croatian military based on
15 reports submitted to him by his subordinate personnel."
16 Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes the summary.
17 Q. Colonel Morneau --
18 JUDGE ORIE: One moment.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
20 Q. Colonel Morneau, may I just take you to your 2008 statement, and
21 that's the third statement, P310 for the record. And if I could take you
22 to paragraph 8. You referred to the Canadian Battalion consisting of
23 five companies and 800 personnel. Now, of these five companies how many
24 infantry companies were included?
25 A. We had three infantry companies in the battalion.
1 Q. How many observation posts did each of the three companies have?
2 A. We had Alpha Company had only two observation posts because the
3 two observation posts were deployed in depth, in fact they were
4 protecting Croats enclaves in the area of the battalion. We had two
5 areas in the battalion that were I will say Croat -- would qualify them
6 as Croat enclaves. It was village of Bruska
7 Rodaljice --
8 Q. Colonel Morneau, we are running a little short of time. If you
9 could say just the number of companies, that would suffice. I'm sorry to
11 A. Observation post. Okay. So Alpha Company 2, Bravo Company, they
12 had --
13 Q. This is -- it's not --
14 A. That's 6 and the other company is 6 also.
15 Q. Is it correct to say that you had 16 observation posts?
16 A. All together, yes, 16.
17 Q. Thank you. Now may I call for document number 5162, please.
18 Colonel Morneau, this is a sketch that you prepared?
19 A. Not me personally, but my staff in the battalion, yes.
20 Q. Now, you reproduced this sketch on a map of the Krajina
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, can this sketch be tendered in
24 evidence? He -- the witness has reproduced this on a map of the Krajina
25 to give it context.
1 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No objections.
3 Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P316, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: P316 is admitted into evidence.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: And may I call for map --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, maps with all kind of signs on it
8 are better to be understood if we get a legend to it so that we know what
9 it's all about.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I will quickly take the
11 witness through the markings.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I take a call for document number -- map
14 number 5174, please.
15 Before that, Mr. President, let me use this sketch map for the
16 explanation so it -- since this is much clearer.
17 Q. Colonel Morneau, is it correct to say that the positions marked
18 with SC and numbers are the observation posts of the Canadian Battalion?
19 A. Yes, they -- my recollection they were for, in French, Secteur
20 Canadien, SC.
21 Q. And in your reports in English, those same positions are referred
22 to as CS, Canadian sector; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And in the -- towards the middle there are three positions marked
25 with flags, square flags, one under the other. One is connected to a
1 little box with Miranje, the other one to Rastevic, and the third to a
2 box below Kasic. Now, what are those three positions?
3 A. These three positions were camps. We had three camps. The box
4 at Miranje which is labelled C, it says Charlie Company; the one at
5 Rastevic with the number two is for the 2nd Battalion, the Royale 22nd
6 Regiment, which was a battalion number; and the one on the south of Kasic
7 was Bravo Company.
8 Q. And the numbers indicate the observation post numbering?
9 A. For the SC, yes.
10 Q. Yes.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up map 5174, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one more thing. We see the one
13 connected to the box just south of Kasic. We have flee little flags.
14 The top one stands for ... ?
15 THE WITNESS: The top one is for the infantry company itself.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The second one?
17 THE WITNESS: Second one is a platoon, advanced tank platoon.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Third one.
19 THE WITNESS: Engineer element.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now in relation to Rastevic, top one is the
21 same, middle one is different?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is the admin company.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --
24 THE WITNESS: The one under is the FR, infantry company.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now for Miranje we had as you said already the
1 Charlie --
2 THE WITNESS: Infantry company.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: And there is the reconnaissance platoon.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Reconnaissance platoon, thank you.
6 Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call for map 5174, please.
8 Mr. President, it's a big map. While it comes up, I will ask a couple of
10 Q. Colonel Morneau, now your testimony was that on 6th August when
11 you arrived, eight of your observation posts were captured by the
12 Croatian military. After the six, what happened to the other eight?
13 Were they allowed to operate?
14 A. In fact, they were staying at their location as part of the
15 observation posts themselves, but we had been imposed a restriction of
16 movement by the Croat forces. So we were officially not able to move
17 freely in the area, but we did some movement, we went around the
18 check-points of the Croats army by some small trails to avoid those
19 check-points to be available to either resupply the check-points -- not
20 the check-point but the observation posts or to go to the company --
21 company locations.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Now we have the map up here and since the
23 locations are too small, Mr. President, for the record, I will read out
24 the markings.
25 Q. Starting from the position in the north, the circle, it's
1 Obrovac, the circle at the northern-most point, north towards north-east,
2 it's Obrovac and then clockwise. At the point marked SC 64, Colonel
3 Morneau, it's on your screen, the map, if you have a copy. SC 64, it's
4 Bruska, and the point at SC 65 is Rodaljice. That's R-o-d-a-l-j-i-c-e.
5 The circle next to that is Benkovac. Below that at SC 50 is Pristeg,
6 P-r-i-s-t-e-g. Towards west of that position at CC 07, that's Charlie
7 Company, is Miranje, M-i-r-a-n-j-e. West of that at position SC 45 is
8 Petrim. South-west of that position, the circular is Biograd.
9 North-west from that position at SC 44 is Kakma. North from that
10 position at Bat HQ is Rastovic. Towards north-west of that at SC -- I'm
11 sorry, at SC 53 is Zemunic. North-east of that at SC 40 is Kasic,
12 K-a-s-i-c. And the circular from that point onwards at just above SC 38
13 is Novi Grad.
14 Now, Colonel Morneau, those are the markings you made yesterday
15 which is a reproduction of your sketch map that you just explained?
16 A. Yes.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this map into
18 evidence, please?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Could we understand what makes markings in blue and what makes
21 markings in red.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I was -- I
23 completely forgot. Yes, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
1 Q. Yes, Colonel Morneau, when you made these markings you had
2 specific information on the specific grid references with regard to some
3 markings, and those markings where you had the information on grid
4 references, you made with red; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And where you did not have the exact grid references and where
7 you had to make approximate markings, where the positions were
8 approximately, you made in blue?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this explanation.
11 Any objections? No objections.
12 Mr. Registrar, the map marked by the witness yesterday ... ?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Becomes Exhibit P317, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: P317 is admitted into evidence.
15 Ms. Mahindaratne, you may proceed.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I call for document number
17 3990, Mr. Registrar.
18 Q. Now while that's being brought up -- I'm sorry, 3990. I think
19 there is a mistake. The document that's coming up is not --
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document that's on the screen
21 is 65 ter number 03990 and it's a document with an original in English
22 consisting of 36 pages.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: It's a document titled UNPF CanBat report. I
24 think we have -- we have it here on -- I think we have -- if I may have a
25 moment, please.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The ERN number, if I could assist
3 Mr. Registrar, it's R1041855. We have the document now.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, if you could please put on the record
6 what you just told me so that we -- this document we see now on our
7 screen is what exactly?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, counsel called for 65 ter number
9 3990, which was the document that was originally brought up on screen;
10 however, the ERN number referenced by counsel, which was R1041855 is in
11 e-court attached as a translation to 65 ter number 3990. However, both
12 documents are English originals.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which gives you another puzzle for the next break,
14 Ms. Mahindaratne. Do we have on our screen at this moment the document?
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President. Yes, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please sort out matters so that --
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I will, Mr. President, I apologise.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- confusion remains at a minimum level.
19 Please proceed.
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
21 Q. Now, Colonel Morneau, you testified and you have referred to in
22 your first statement that the CanBat reported or compiled a report on the
23 human rights violations which included reports on pillaging and burning
24 recorded by your battalion in August 1995. That is correct, isn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is this a document that's -- that you were referring to?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender this document in
4 evidence. Before that, Mr. President, this document has several annexes
5 which contain sensitive information with regard to victims, so may it be
6 tendered under seal?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections?
8 MR. KEHOE: No objection.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Ms. Mahindaratne, you say it has several
10 annexes. I see that it's a five-page document. I do not see any annexes
11 at this moment to this document, unless you are referring to information
12 we find on the pages following --
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President, in fact I think the
14 correct -- although it's only the first five pages that have been
15 uploaded to the e-court, but this is a very big document with several
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, it's fine to know that your
18 version of this document contains a lot of information which is not part
19 of what, of course, this Chamber is admitting. So I see that on the
20 second page of this document we get specific cases of human rights
21 violations; on the third it starts with general violations and then
22 pillaging, burning of private property and then a few other categories
23 there; on the fourth page we find a new heading before paragraph 17,
24 mistreatment of UN soldiers; and on the last page we only have paragraph
1 If you are seeking protection on the basis of what we find in
2 annexes which are not attached to this document, then we have a rather
3 empty request, isn't it? It doesn't -- but I have not scanned the
4 document on any information about victims. Could you perhaps after the
5 break inform the Chamber whether for the five documents you are tendering
6 into evidence now, whether the protection by admitting it under seal is
7 needed or not needed.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. For these five pages it's
9 not necessary. I was -- I intended to tender the entire document so that
10 the document would be complete. However the information I wished to
11 place before the Trial Chamber is in the main document.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is in the main document?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And --
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: So the necessity for it to be tendered under
16 seal at this stage is not there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 No objections.
19 Mr. Registrar, what would be the number?
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the five pages mentioned by counsel
22 that are ERN number R1041855 become Exhibit P318.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I realize I'm running out of
24 time --
25 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Yes, the ERN number just mentioned by
1 Mr. Registrar is the first ERN number of these -- of this five-page
2 document and is admitted into evidence as Exhibit P318.
3 Ms. Mahindaratne, here of course it is presented as a document
4 attached to another document, apparently being its translation, but that
5 cannot be true because both these documents are in English. So
6 therefore, a B/C/S version of this document is still required.
7 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, during the break I will
8 find out as to what has happened.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Kehoe.
11 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Judge.
12 Was it the map itself that became 317, Mr. Monkhouse?
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was this five-page report.
14 MR. KEHOE: I think Mr. Monkhouse said that was 318.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 318. Then I made a mistake.
16 MR. KEHOE: I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I find on page 31, line 6, that the five-page
18 document is P318 and that is the document that we are looking at at this
19 moment. But I think I admitted -- I'm looking at page 31, line 11, that
20 this five-page document was admitted under P318. So from what I see at
21 this moment on my screen, there seems to be no inconsistency.
22 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Mr. President, I'm aware I'm running out of time, but I have a
1 few more areas to call if I may seek the Court's indulgence to provide me
2 with just ten more minutes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact that you announced one
4 and a half hours earlier and that you said that you most likely would do
5 with less. In view of what the Defence indicated, we should have
6 sufficient time this morning.
7 You will not run to any difficulties if Ms. Mahindaratne will
8 take another 15 minutes?
9 MR. KEHOE: No, that will be fine, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, please proceed.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Your Honour, I'm grateful for that.
12 Q. Colonel Morneau, when you were interviewed in 2006 you handed
13 over to the Office of the Prosecutor a videotape which contained footage
14 of deployment of the Canadian Battalion as well as some scenes of
15 destruction after Operation Storm; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was that footage recorded by one of your subordinate personnel?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was it done pursuant to your instructions?
20 A. Yes, I mean throughout the -- our deployment we had also as part
21 of the battalion a public information officer, and I had given him a task
22 at the beginning of the deployment to collect footage of the front
23 activities of the battalion throughout its deployment with the intent
24 that at the end of the deployment we'll put together those footage and
25 make, as I said, as a kind of a memory for the soldiers, and I made
1 reproduction of those cassettes to each of the soldiers, so each of the
2 soldiers of the battalion receive a copy of it.
3 Q. Now, what was the area you asked your personnel to film in terms
4 of the destruction? Was it your area of responsibility or Sector South?
5 Can you be more specific?
6 A. I mean, mainly in the area of the CanBat 1, but it may appear
7 that there was some footage that they were taking between our battalion
8 and Knin, which then passed outside our area of responsibility into the
9 Canadian Battalion area of responsibility towards the city of Knin
10 I will say that the ballpark was in the CanBat 1 AOR and maybe some
11 footage, like I said, on the roads towards Knin.
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I'm about to play the tape.
13 We'll play only 50 seconds of it, but there's a 4 minute and 22 seconds
14 of footage I move to tender into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, any text spoken on it?
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President. There is just three words
17 at the beginning which is very clear, but there is no text.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Then --
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: The 65 ter number is 3756, for the record.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No objections?
22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know if she's only playing 50
23 seconds, if I can just get -- on the break look through the rest of
24 what's being tendered that's not being played and just reserve at that
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We could stop there.
6 Q. Now, Colonel Morneau, do you recognise that footage as being the
7 footage recorded by your CanBat personnel?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And are you able to say generally, not -- you don't have to be
10 very specific if you don't have recollection what this area is?
11 A. I cannot recall exactly where it was in the area, but it was part
12 of the Sector South for sure and more likely in the -- in my battalion
14 Q. Thank you for that.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I tender that footage into
16 evidence, please?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll hear from the Defence so we just now mark
18 it for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P319, marked
20 for identification.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
23 Q. Colonel Morneau, may I take you to your statement, the first
24 statement, that is -- I beg your pardon, the third statement, 2008, to
25 paragraph 6. In paragraph 6 you refer to communicating with the Croatian
1 liaison officer regarding the release of your captured personnel, and you
2 also say even in relation to other matters. Whom do you mean by Croatian
3 liaison officer? And I'm not asking for a name. Is it HV liaison
4 officer or liaison officer for the government? Can you be more specific?
5 A. That was the CALO in Zadar and CALO standed for Croatian army
6 liaison officer in Zadar.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. And moving you to your first
8 statement if you go to your 1996 statement and there the paragraphs are
9 not numbered. If you go to page 3, from the top it's paragraph 6 if you
10 count from the top of the page. You refer to your freedom of movement of
11 the CanBat being denied by Croats.
12 Now, what was the manner in your free -- in which your freedom of
13 movement was restricted? How was it done? Could you answer briefly?
14 A. I mean, following or during and following the Operation Storm the
15 Croats army and then -- and then after that, the Croats military police
16 and then eventually the Croat civilian police, they established
17 roadblocks all over the area. I mean, they were -- to enter the zone of
18 the -- what we used to call the Krajina, the zone of separation between
19 the Croats armed forces and the Serbian armed forces, there were entry
20 points to the area of responsibility and there were check-points in those
21 areas plus throughout the area there were additional check-points to
22 control any movement. So if we were to attempt to move ourselves, so we
23 were stopped at those check-points and they were refusing the right of
24 passage to the vehicles.
25 Q. Now, when you say following the operation, when did you see these
1 check-points? Is it immediately following the operation or can you be
2 more specific?
3 A. I mean, they were established right after the first wave of the
4 leading troops. As soon as the leading troops would pass an area then
5 there were check-point established initially by the Croat army, military
6 police, and then eventually replaced by Croats civilian police.
7 Q. Now --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, could I ask for a clarification as
9 far as the comma is concerned. I invite you, Mr. Morneau, to look at the
10 screen. I take it that you have text in front of you as well, 36, line
11 12 puts a comma after Croat army, which makes it initially by the Croat
12 army, military police, and then eventually replaced by Croats civilian
14 Another way of reading it without the comma would be: Initially
15 by the Croat army military police and then eventually replaced by Croats
16 civilian police.
17 Are you talking about three stages, the first one Croat army,
18 second one military police, and then Croatian civilian police; or were
19 you talking about two stages, the first one Croat army military police
20 and then eventually replaced by Croats civilian police?
21 THE WITNESS: At the beginning during the period of the
22 offensive, the Croat army itself was busy with the -- fighting the fight,
23 I will say; and following that it was the military police that was
24 establishing the check-points.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So no check-points established by military not
1 being military police?
2 THE WITNESS: I would not say no. It may have happened in some
3 circumstances somewhere that the military itself established
4 check-points, but I will say as a measure of process. I mean they
5 were -- the troops were fighting the fight and the military police were
6 establishing check-points but it may have happened in some areas that
7 there were no military police, that then the military itself will
8 establish check-points.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification.
10 Ms. Mahindaratne.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
12 Q. Colonel Morneau, can I take you to page 4 of your -- of the same
13 statement, 1996. And to -- from the top of the page, paragraph 2, you go
14 on to say that: "On many occasions I saw at the beginning Croats in
15 military uniforms and then civilians looting houses. On some occasions I
16 witnessed people coming out from houses with looted articles. When I
17 passed the houses again on my return I saw the same houses burning."
18 Now, my question to you is: With regard to those occasions, and
19 I appreciate you can't speak with regard to each and every occasion, but
20 those occasions when you pass houses where you saw people coming out with
21 looted goods and then when you return you saw those same houses on fire,
22 who were those people you saw coming out of the houses with the looted
23 goods? And I'm referring to those houses which were on fire later on.
24 Were they military or civilian or both?
25 A. Initially were military, and then eventually there were a mix of
1 military and civilian. And as the time went by, there were more and more
3 Q. And during the first week after the operation, who had control of
4 your area of responsibility?
5 A. The Croat army.
6 Q. If I could take you back, Colonel Morneau, and these are my
7 couple of last questions, to page 2 from the top, paragraph 4. I'm
8 sorry, I think I got the wrong page. I think it's page 4, paragraph 2.
9 That same paragraph we were on at -- earlier on. You go on to say: "My
10 opinion about what happened during the month of August 1995 is that the
11 higher Croatian authorities closed their eyes to the fact that there was
12 systematic looting and burning of houses in all of my area of
14 Now, my question to you, Colonel, is: What do you mean by
15 systematic looting and destruction? Can you clarify that a little bit
17 A. I will say that in a normal situation you may have a riot in a
18 city that you have looting that happens at the occasion of that riot. In
19 this instance it was not one incident. It was day after day and after
20 day for thee to four weeks and it was very deliberate in a sense that it
21 was not -- there were a selection of the houses. I mean, some houses
22 were not touched and some houses were burned. So there were a pattern, a
23 scheme, to go and loot and then burn those houses. And at the beginning
24 like I said it, it was only with the soldiers but quickly there were
25 civilians that were with the soldiers and the -- I don't know, probably
1 the -- probably they were living in the area in the past so they knew
2 exactly who the house belonged to and who used to live in those houses.
3 So it was a process, I will say, that -- because even some houses that
4 have seen some houses that have been burning two or three different
5 times. I mean there's quite resilient houses and they are built in the
6 cement blocks and it's not like North America, when it burns, it burns
7 down to the ground. But there were some places it was surprising to see
8 that the same house would be put on fire again. So when I say
9 systematic, I mean because it was a repetition of it. It was not one
10 incident. It was a constant process that was taking place for three to
11 four weeks.
12 Q. Thank you for that. Taking you to your last statement, Colonel
13 Morneau, that is 2008 statement, paragraph 9. And actually, paragraph 9
14 going on to page 3 so I'm looking at the top of the paragraph. You refer
15 to freedom of movement -- restrictions on freedom of movement and you
16 say: "The Croatians informed us that the restriction was while they
17 cleared the area of pockets of Serbian resistance but our observations
18 indicated that the restriction was also used to conduct looting and
20 Now, can you tell the Court as to what were those observations
21 that led you to come to that conclusion?
22 A. I mean, when they were blocking off some specific area with
23 check-points we could not enter to observe what was happening in that
24 area. I will take the example of the city of Benkovac whereby there were
25 check-points all around the access road to go there. And then we could
1 not see what was happening inside, but what we could see was a lot of
2 vehicles coming out of that area with looted furniture or farm equipment
3 or cattles, whatever they were looting, they were coming out of the same
4 area that we could not get in. So I don't know the reason, was it just
5 to make sure that we were not going to witness what they were doing and
6 then they were looting and then they -- to do it more I will say
7 anonymously. That was our presumption, that because of the restriction
8 of freedom of movement to those specific area and seeing all those
9 equipment coming out of it at the same time.
10 Q. My last question to you, Colonel Morneau, and that is based on
11 your first statement. Let me take you to your 1996 statement again. I'm
12 sorry for going to and fro. If I could take you to page 4 of the 1996
13 statement, and from the top paragraph 4, referring to the criminal
14 activity you say: "On some occasions I sent my subordinates to ask the
15 HV liaison office in Zadar the reason for the burning and looting and why
16 they allowed it. I can recall that the Croats reply was that they
17 couldn't control it."
18 Now, is that many -- was that statement consistent with what you
19 observed the situation to be?
20 A. Not at all. I mean -- I mean, we reported day after day to the
21 CALO, the Croatian army liaison officer in Zadar what was happening in
22 the area of responsibility, and we told them that, hey, they should take
23 a control or grip on their soldiers and their military police and their
24 civilian police. But an action like that that happened over three or
25 four weeks, I mean with all of the chain of command that was in place,
1 with all of the check-points that was in place, it would have been very
2 hazy if there were an order passed down the chain of command to say we
3 don't want any looting happening and there were so many people all over
4 the place that it would have been impossible to do it.
5 Q. And I said it was my last question but one follow-up question,
6 Colonel Morneau. The presence of the units on the ground as you saw it,
7 were they organized units or were they soldiers just coming into the area
8 in a random fashion?
9 A. I think they were both. Some were organized units. I will say
10 that the first wave of the Croat army was more the regular force, better
11 trained, better equipped, and then there were some conscript forces that
12 were, I will say, holding the ground. They were left behind in the AOR
13 to control the area with military police and then eventually more and
14 more civilian police. So they were specific units and Croatian army
16 Q. Thank you for your answer.
17 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, that concludes direct
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.
20 Perhaps I would like to seek further clarification of your last
21 answer. Do I understand you well that there first was a wave of, let's
22 say, combat units. Did they participate in or did they -- were they
23 involved in these looting activities as well?
24 THE WITNESS: I could not say if they were all involved. For
25 sure, that the first wave they were passing through and they were
1 fighting the fight, so there were not time to do looting, but the one
2 that they were staying in place -- I mean, my understanding was that the
3 best troops were moving towards Knin and that area to the capital. And
4 then following that, some have been redeployed and some have been -- also
5 there were some units from the -- what I call the conscript units that
6 were less best equipped, that they were also in the area but they were
7 still formed units from the Croatian army.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so these were the troops that were left behind
9 and were not at the front line, and you said they operated still as
10 units, not as individuals but --
11 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- units --
13 THE WITNESS: In --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- could you give me a clue as to when you talk
15 about units, is it about -- I take it first of all a plurality of
16 persons, more persons, not just one? How many --
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, military unit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, military units.
19 THE WITNESS: In a sense -- as an example, they establish a
20 headquarter in Benkovac, so it's nothing at all they would establish a
21 headquarter, it is a formed unit and they were a formed unit in Benkovac
22 that there was established there. So they were occupying -- they were
23 the occupying force, I will say, of the territory.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, what others will call liberating force, but I
25 leave that to --
1 THE WITNESS: Occupy the ground.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- as neutral. Yes, occupy the ground.
4 THE WITNESS: But also over time, after X number of days, after
5 one week, there were the front troops, some of them came back to the rear
6 also. So when the wave was passed some of that first wave came back in
7 the area. I won't say all of them. Some were redeployed to Split
8 other places. But we saw some of the troops that were initially passed
9 through, some of the individuals came back. In fact, I remember having a
10 conversation that one of the officers I believe that after a week he came
11 back and he was kind of surprised to see himself that much destruction
12 that had been happening in the area.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So these forces were -- this was an organized
14 presence. Now, was it also organized looting? Would they go one by one
15 or would they go in small groups or would they go in units? Was there
16 any system in, for example, go in a group house by house or -- I'm trying
17 to understand exactly to what extent this was just individual
18 misbehaviour or whether this was misbehaviour collective for the units
19 the individuals were in.
20 THE WITNESS: I could not say that it was organized and directed,
21 but I will say that it was easily preventable because of the deployment
22 of all those units on the ground, if there had been an order to say there
23 is no looting in our area then there would not have been any looting.
24 Having said that, I mean, if you had a sealed area like we had some --
25 like in Benkovac like the example I gave earlier, I mean, there are
1 check-points there that we cannot enter so we cannot witness what was
2 happening. So was it organized from the chain of command or was it the
3 fact that we didn't want to look -- for us to look at that. That's lead
4 me to believe that there was some level of organization there that they
5 didn't want us to witness what was happening in those areas.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You deduce the level of organization more from
7 the measures apparently taken to keep you out of the area than from a
8 direct observation on whether any instructions were given or how they
9 actually operated, that is, in what kind of groups or whether or not
10 under any orders, is that --
11 THE WITNESS: The latter.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, you did not observe -- I have some
13 difficulties in -- I said that the level of organization that you deduced
14 that rather from the measures apparently taken to keep you out than from
15 direct observation. Then you said the latter.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, the previous one.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: I mean, I didn't see an officer directing people,
19 go and empty that house. I have not seen those actions. What we saw is
20 people coming out of building so for the places would seem --
21 JUDGE ORIE: And were those just individuals, was it one person
22 going in, coming out --
23 THE WITNESS: Small groups of individuals.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Small groups, and then you're talking about, what is
25 a small group for you? Three or four, eight to nine?
1 THE WITNESS: It would be two, three guys to six, seven, eight.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those clarifications.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Could I ask just one question, just one
7 JUDGE ORIE: One question, Ms. Mahindaratne, but I'm really
8 looking at the clock now because you have got your last question and then
9 another question and now very last question, please.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
11 Q. Colonel Morneau, during the first week after the operation you
12 referred to your statements observing what you call systematic looting
13 and destruction. During the first week did you observe that, first week
14 after the operation --
15 A. Yes --
16 MR. KEHOE: This is asked and answered now.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's then have a break. The question has --
18 the question has been answered by a yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break and resume at 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you're the first one to cross-examine the
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Morneau, you'll now be cross-examined by
2 Mr. Kehoe who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, for the record I drew a potential
4 correction to the attention of Mr. Monkhouse on the break on page 43,
5 line 16 where I think it's listed as construction and I believe the
6 witness said destruction. I think it's been corrected.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Usually comments on the transcript are best to
8 be delivered to the transcribers unit because they have to take care of
9 it and they'll verify whether your version is any better than theirs.
10 MR. KEHOE: I'm just trying to be helpful.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, of course, it's appreciated, Mr. Kehoe.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
15 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. I'm going to talk about a few subjects that were discussed on
18 your direct examination and then some other topics that you discuss in
19 your statements. I would like to talk first about the murders that you
20 talked about and we saw a series of photographs that came into evidence
21 of an old man, a dead body that you had seen in the field. And I believe
22 that you stated in your testimony that he had been in the custody of the
23 civilian police prior to that; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, the other incident that came to our attention was a matter
1 that was brought up in three -- P318, if we could take 318 up on the
2 screen. Colonel, this is also a matter that I believe you discussed in
3 your statement at various occasions, but I believe cryptically it's
4 probably better just to go at this exhibit.
5 MR. KEHOE: If we can go to the next page, please, of the
6 document, page 2.
7 Q. If we can look at paragraph 7, Colonel, it has to do with a
8 Mr. Stegnajic coming to the camp first on the 17th and then later on the
9 21st of August, and this is listed under specific cases of human rights
10 violations and it notes that "her body was examined and no external signs
11 of force being used were found."
12 If I can turn your attention to P233, and it is a -- P233,
13 Colonel, is a UNCIVPOL incident report. If we could look at that, it
14 notes CIVPOL, and this is the same Mr. Stegnajic, and it notes the
15 preliminary incident after him coming to the CanBat 1 gate he related
16 that on the 21st of August, this is four lines down, two men dressed in
17 civilian clothes with long hair and carrying AK-47s came to his house.
18 Were you informed of that, Colonel?
19 A. As part of the -- I was informed when the individual -- my
20 recollection is one -- on the 21st when he came and then he asked for
21 assistance and then I sent the MP with them to investigate what was
22 happening with his wife. My recollection at that time was that, yes, he
23 mentioned that to the -- to my staff and then this is when I decided to
24 dispatch the MP there.
25 Q. So he mentioned that -- he mentioned that two men in civilian
1 clothes had come with long hair; is that right?
2 A. I try to remember now. Because I didn't speak to him personally.
3 I mean, what was -- it was my staff. He came to the gate and spoke with
4 people at the gate and my recollection was that there were some people
5 that came to his house and were threatening -- threatening his wife and
6 his -- himself to -- if they were not leaving that there will be
7 consequences to his wife and himself. But I cannot say who it was as
9 Q. Okay. I'm just waiting for the translation to catch up, Colonel.
10 If we can go back down about halfway down the page. When your
11 MPs took him back to the scene did they note, as reflected in this
12 report, that the woman was dead in the water. Tied to the wall of the
13 well was her cane, and immediately to the front of the well was her apron
14 neatly folded and her shoes placed on top. Did they tell you that, sir?
15 A. I saw that as part of that report. Not those details -- I was
16 not told that -- what I was told after that fact was that they discovered
17 a lady in the well, but I had not been provided verbally the details, so
18 it was --
19 Q. So you were provided these by your MPs; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did they tell you or comment to you that they believed it was a
22 suicide by this man's wife?
23 A. No. I mean, they didn't mention to me that it was a suicide.
24 But personally I did some linkage because it was not the first day. It
25 started the 17th and then when the gentleman came back it was the 21st.
1 And following that he had been threatened, and then the -- he had to
2 leave, he had to escape himself and asked for help and we went back with
3 him. I mean, if you are threatened -- I don't know, I don't know what
4 happened there, but you can make different deductions from there.
5 Q. Okay. If I could just change subjects, sir, and go back to your
6 statement, 309, your 1996 statement. And I'm referring to the comments
7 that you talked about on cross about -- that's a third full paragraph
8 down, they went on some occasions.
9 A. Which page?
10 Q. Page 4. I apologise.
11 A. Which paragraph?
12 Q. Paragraph, I believe it's the first -- excluding the carryover
13 paragraph, the third full paragraph: "On some occasions ..."
14 This is the one you said you sent your subordinates to --
15 A. I have it.
16 Q. In the latter part it says: "I can recall that the Croat reply
17 was that they couldn't control it."
18 Now, Colonel, were you aware of steps that were being taken by
19 the Croatian authorities to attempt to control this looting and burning,
20 both on the military side and on the civilian side, were you aware of
22 A. No, I mean I was not aware and I have not seen any evidence on
23 the ground that there were any attempt to control it.
24 Q. Well, if orders were given and some of this still happened with
25 units, it would bring into question the effective control over those
1 units, wouldn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. But suffice it to say at this point without going into it at some
4 length, you were unaware of any efforts being made by civilian
5 authorities and military authorities to curtail this activity?
6 A. Not at all, no.
7 Q. Now, you noted during the course of your testimony this morning
8 that some of this looting was taking place by civilians and soldiers
9 together. Now, if we can turn to your 2008 statement for some clarity on
10 this score, that is P310.
11 A. Which paragraph?
12 Q. The bottom paragraph. You note on page -- I guess that's
13 paragraph 9 you note that: "I describe the looting that I witnessed by
14 the military and civilians. Most of the vehicles I saw were civilian
15 vehicles with a mixture of military and civilian drivers."
16 Is that accurate, sir?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And based on your long distinguished career, sir, I mean military
19 and civilians don't -- the military don't normally operate in conjunction
20 with civilians when they're conducted military operations, do they?
21 A. Normally no. If I may add some comment here. During that phase
22 after the wave of the offensive, there were more and more civilian coming
23 in the area and we saw civilian with military, were they working
24 together, were they talking, but we saw many instances that there were
25 civilian accompanied by military.
1 Q. Well, let us just take that. There were civilians then coming
2 back into the area where they had formerly lived. Is that right?
3 A. In a manner of saying, yes.
4 Q. That was what you deducted by the civilians coming back in?
5 A. Yeah, there may have been others not living there, living close
6 by, like Zadar or Split
7 coming and looting and certainly some were ex-inhabitant of that area.
8 Q. Colonel, when you observed this did you conclude that these
9 people that were conducting these looting and burning activities were
10 engaged in a degree of revenge in that they were trying to take back
11 things that had been taken from them some years prior to that by the
13 A. I mean, I cannot ascertain if it was revenge. We get -- the only
14 thing I can say is the facts that they were doing those actions. What
15 motives, it's up to them to describe.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I have some difficulties with
17 understanding your question in full detail. You're using the word
18 revenge, which as far as I understand, is doing a similar thing to what
19 has been done to you.
20 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And at the same time you are talking about trying to
22 take back things that had been taken from them some years prior to that
23 by the Serbs. Now, if you look at it at an abstract level, that is you
24 have taken -- well, let's say property or land from the Croatians, now we
25 take back land, then it's a kind of restitution of an earlier situation.
1 If we are talking on a mini level, then it would be, you've taken my
2 fridge, now I take my fridge back. These are different things.
3 MR. KEHOE: Or the functional equivalent of your fridge.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. But then revenge, taking back what was
5 taken from you at least leaves open some of these questions. Therefore,
6 I have some difficulties in how I would have to interpret that question
7 before I could answer that question.
8 MR. KEHOE: And I understand, Judge, and I think the witness said
9 that he couldn't -- he couldn't assess the motivations of those
10 individuals at the time. So I'll just move on.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 THE WITNESS: Can I add a comment?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
14 THE WITNESS: We had 23 -- up to 23 refugee that came to our
15 camp, and as part of these refugees coming to our camp we did interview
16 them as they were coming, as to what happened. And we asked them to make
17 statements. And I believe that those statements were -- are the annexes
18 that were referred to this morning about the human rights violations.
19 From what I -- from what we gathered from a number of those different
20 individuals that were coming to our camp, I mean they did -- some of them
21 did recognise some of the civilians, probably they were from the same
22 area, but then they were threatened by those same civilians who were
23 accompanied by military soldiers to leave the area because there were no
24 business for them anymore.
25 So is it that attitude or behaviour, is it a revenge because they
1 were expelled from their area? I mean, that could qualify as a revenge
2 if they -- now they were threatening them -- the same civilians to leave
3 the area or otherwise.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes thank you for that clarification.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
6 MR. KEHOE:
7 Q. On that score, Colonel, about these interviews coming back, was
8 it from these interviews of refugees coming to your camp that you
9 received this information about units wearing these Balaclavas, these
11 A. No, that was from the people of my battalion.
12 Q. Now, on that score from your battalion, did the battalions or the
13 people in your battalion, did they designate whether or not this unit
14 wearing this Balaclava
15 A. Not a specific formation, but the way they described them, it
16 was -- they were a form -- unit a former group of people who were doing
17 that special duty and they were calling them special force. Were they
18 special force or not, I cannot say, but they were specialised troops
19 doing that specific task.
20 Q. Do you know if they were civil or military?
21 A. Military.
22 Q. Let us turn to P312, the first page of this -- of P312. If I can
23 just -- now, those are the brigades that your report notes were deployed
24 in your sector. Do you see that, sir?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, if we can go to paragraph 30 two pages up. Is that, in
2 fact, two pages up? It was actually the page that was discussed by
3 counsel this morning, 707854.
4 I can ask the question, Colonel, without that. In the area of
5 the report that discusses these units, this -- with wearing these
6 Balaclavas, none of those four units that you described in the report is
7 listed in that paragraph. Is there any -- I mean, did they not see any
8 military designations on these units or they simply just not identified
9 where they were from?
10 A. They didn't identify which unit they were from.
11 Q. Now, turning back to our subject of the actual looting, and if we
12 could go to P316 -- and before we go to -- as we're bringing that up I'll
13 continue to ask some preliminary questions on this score.
14 In your commentary on 308, quickly go back to P308, and on 308 in
15 the -- page 4 of the first full paragraph you note in the last sentence,
16 you're talking about the systematic looting and burning: "It would have
17 been very easy to prevent all these things from happening."
18 Now, Colonel, to prevent these things from happening you
19 obviously need check-points; isn't that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I believe you noted in response to a question by Judge Orie
22 that at least initially the check-points were military police and then
23 civilian police; is that right?
24 A. Initially, yes, but it depends where in the area. I mean, there
25 were a mix of check-points, military check-points and civilian
1 check-points at the same time.
2 Q. Okay. If we could just look at a check-point, Colonel. At an
3 individual check-point if you were to put a check-point at that location,
4 how many individuals would you need to man that check-point on a 24-hour
5 basis, seven days a week?
6 A. It would depend how you want to drive your soldiers.
7 Q. Let's say eight-hour shifts.
8 A. Normally six soldiers will do a good job at that check-point.
9 Q. So if we had six soldiers in -- what would you say, six soldiers
10 in eight-hour shifts, right? So that's how many soldiers, are we
11 talking about?
12 A. Not necessarily an eight-hour shift. You can have six soldiers
13 at a check-point, that they will be able to man it 24/7.
14 Q. I understand. But obviously you don't have soldiers there on a
15 24-hour basis and they need sleep and rest and to be fed, and as a
16 commander if you were setting up a check-point at a location, how many
17 soldiers would you deploy, given all the humanitarian -- humanitarian
18 concerns involved, I mean, eating, sleeping, et cetera, how many would
19 you put at a check-point?
20 A. Between six and ten. To give an example, all the observation
21 point that we had deployed, there were sections or level and there were
22 between six, seven soldiers at a time because we had a vacation plan that
23 they are always 25 per cent away and normally the section was nine
24 people. So you had seven soldiers at an observation point and they were
25 manning the observation point 24/7. So you can apply the same rationale
1 to a check-point and then with a section of six to ten, six, seven on the
2 location and some others that are going on leave or rest and then you can
3 man a check-point with a section easily.
4 Q. Let me just -- maybe you can help me clarify some of the numbers.
5 When you have a unit of men or soldiers or policemen at a check-point,
6 taking into consideration people on leave, taking into consideration
7 rest, taking into consideration being at a check-point out in the
8 elements, when you bring that whole total together, how many would you as
9 a colonel deploy at that check-point to say, Now, you soldiers have to
10 control that check-point? What's the total number?
11 A. A section of ten.
12 Q. Ten. Now, in addition to the ten at the check-point, would you
13 have other soldiers or police in the area combing the area to make sure
14 that the check-point wasn't threatened in some other fashion off the
16 A. I will not say threatened, but if you want to have a positive
17 control in an area you establish that check-points and then you establish
18 patrols and then you send patrols in between check-points and to cover
19 the areas that the check-point does not necessarily cover.
20 Q. Now, the patrols would be a number of soldiers in addition to the
21 ten soldiers that you have at the check-point?
22 A. Yes, but it can be a mix of the two. I mean, you can have your
23 own check-point depending on the situation. If it is a quiet
24 check-point, then they can go on their own, send two men patrolling the
25 area and come back to the check-point.
1 Q. If it's an active check-point, then obviously you would --
2 A. They need more manpower to handle the traffic and what's
3 happening at that check-point.
4 Q. So in the check-point you also when you're looking as to whether
5 or not things are quiet or happening in your area, would you take into
6 consideration that there were 40.000 displaced Croats that wanted to come
7 back into the Krajina? Would that part of the -- something you would
8 take into consideration in determining how many people to deploy at a
9 check-point along with the patrols?
10 A. That's dependent of intent of the military commander. What kind
11 of situation he has analysed he will face. So does the check-point -- is
12 to control the movement within the OR for whatever reason, and then you
13 assess, okay you have potential Serb straddlers, you have the UN element
14 that are in the area, and you have also like you just said potential
15 returnees that want to go back to the area.
16 Q. Now, they -- people started to return to this area -- but let me
17 go back to this report, if I may.
18 MR. KEHOE: I'm trying to reference the actual P numbers. It's
19 P314, paragraph 52. I'm sorry, with all due respect, my French is not
20 what it should be.
21 French was up on the screen, Judge.
22 Q. Colonel, if we look at paragraph 15 of the item on the 6th of
23 August it talks about -- paragraph 52, I apologise, on the screen,
24 Colonel, it talks about some burning and looting going on, but it also
25 says: "In addition Croats were reoccupying the houses along the eastern
1 part of the security zone."
2 Do you see that, Colonel?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, Colonel, they were coming back as early as a day after the
5 end of Operation Storm. Were they coming back in large numbers that
6 early, sir?
7 A. Not in big groups. They would come more individually, but I
8 didn't see a mass of civilian coming at once. They were -- I think on
9 one day you see a house is empty and then the next day you come and you
10 have civilian in the house. That's part of the I will say that support
11 that statement that was re-occupying those houses. I mean we knew from
12 the past there were no people in those houses and then over time they
13 were coming back in those houses.
14 Q. Colonel, when did you return to Sector South? I know that you
15 weren't there during Operation Storm. When did you come back?
16 A. The 6th.
17 Q. The 6th, that day?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Going again with this idea that there were returnees and you
20 noted for us that you would have ten at the check-point, if you had the
21 need for patrolling, how many additional soldiers might you need above
22 the ten?
23 A. It depends -- it depends the area that you have to cover, the
24 wider and bigger the area, the more patrol you will need to have proper
25 control of the area, but it depends on the area.
1 Q. I understand it's a question that is fact-oriented with the area,
2 but if we had ten, if you were a commander in a check-point that was of
3 medium activity, how many additional soldiers might you need?
4 A. Patrols are not related to a check-point. They are related to a
5 surface, an area to cover. I mean the bigger the area, the more patrol
6 you will need if you want to have a proper control of the area. So it's
7 really -- if you have one square kilometre versus 100 square kilometres,
8 your answer will be different so that give me an area or a size of an
9 area, and we can discuss about the requirements.
10 Q. How about Sector South as a whole, if you wanted patrols, how
11 many would you need?
12 A. Sector South as a whole, I mean lots of patrols, I mean it would
13 be many, many patrols because you had the Czech battalion AOR, the
14 Jordanian battalion, the Canadian and the Kenyan. To cover all of that
15 you need lots of patrol to have a complete control. But patrolling
16 is one way of controlling. If -- you can achieve as much a good control
17 with check-points, so if you have a good check-point system in place,
18 which they had in the area, I mean you have a positive control. I mean,
19 you may have some people that will bypass, but it will be minor as
20 opposed to large numbers.
21 Q. Would you say that you would need just in Sector South something
22 in the area of four battalions to do that kind of patrolling?
23 A. I will say that with four battalions you will have a very good
24 patrol system because Sector South we had four battalions, and in fact
25 you don't need that many just to patrol. If you want to occupy the
1 ground you will need that many. Just to give you an example, we had four
2 battalions in Sector South, but we were occupying mainly the zone of
3 separation. So most of our troops were tied up in the zone of separation
4 on the static observation post, and like in my own AOR we had two
5 companies tied up in the zone of separation because they had to -- that
6 was the most sensible area. But they had the third company, the reserve
7 company, had a full company that was in charge of patrolling all the rest
8 of the AOR. So with a full company they were covering the complete AOR.
9 So you don't need four battalions just to patrol. If you want to have a
10 control of the area with the check-point and patrol, then you may end up
11 with four battalions.
12 Q. Okay.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, we're now in a long series of questions
14 about what you would need to have an effective system of check-points and
15 control, isn't it? However, but just the testimony of this witness is
16 that the check-points let just the looted material go. That's at
17 least -- so it seems that we are -- I, for example, draw your attention
18 to page 4 of the witness's first statement: "I saw vehicles with looted
19 articles go through the check-points all over my AOR. Sometimes I saw
20 the police stop the driver and ask questions and then let it go."
21 So it seems that there are two different discussions, the one
22 is --
23 MR. KEHOE: I disagree, Judge, because I'm trying to develop the
24 rest of the point on what's involved and what's necessary to put in that
25 area, and I'm going into another subarea, moving away from the actual
1 numbers and moving into the other qualifications of the people at those
2 check-points. So we are talking about a series of numbers, putting aside
3 soldiers who were actually in combat but also those who were actually
4 manning check-points and doing patrols and what's necessary.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then -- I was just a bit afraid that we are
6 dealing with two rather distinct issues, but if you bring them together
7 I'm --
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- carefully listening.
10 MR. KEHOE: I beg for a little indulgence as I go through this.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know a bit of my impatience.
12 MR. KEHOE: I understand. But I wish things were as easy as
13 writing on a piece of paper and handing it in, but there is a distinct
14 disadvantage when statements come across the bar with conclusions that we
15 have to confront the witness not only pursuant to the rules but the
16 requirements of the Chamber, and that's what I'm attempting to do with
17 the colonel.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Now, in addition, Colonel, we are talking about the elements
21 involved as a commander. The people that you put out at check-points and
22 on patrol have to have training in order to do the job properly, don't
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And has -- has it been your experience that they have to have the
1 available equipment, they have to have the correct equipment in order to
2 do the proper job, don't they?
3 A. Check-point, you don't need much equipment. I mean, you need a
4 physical presence and to be able to stop traffic and verify the identity
5 of the people passing through. So that's the purpose of a check-point.
6 So you don't need any equipment to do that. I mean, you have people
7 standing on the street, they do a check-point. If you want to have more
8 protection, you have vehicles, you can make some other improvisation to
9 stop vehicles if they were to try to force the check-point, but it's the
10 level of threat or injury that you anticipate.
11 Q. Well, at minimum, Colonel, you would agree that they would need
12 hopefully uniforms, some type of weapons, and some type of
13 transportation, that would be a minimum requirement?
14 A. They will need weapons, that's for sure, vehicles to go to the
15 check-point, but then the check-point itself, you may leave the people
16 there and they man the check-point without vehicles. I mean, normally,
17 preferably, you will have but it's not necessary.
18 Q. In addition to that, when you go into an area to either man a
19 check-point or do the reconnaissance patrolling, you need a knowledge of
20 the area also, don't you?
21 A. You don't need any knowledge for check-points. If you want to
22 patrol, then you need to have at least a map so you know where you want
23 to -- where you are and where you are going, especially if you are given
24 instruction or orders to patrol a specific area. Then normally you will
25 need a -- either a map or a very good knowledge of the area, one or the
2 Q. Colonel, did you know how many men the HV military police had in
3 Sector South?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, even with check-points, if we turn our attention to your
6 first statement at P308 on page 3, and the second-last paragraph from the
7 bottom, talking about check-points. Do you see that, Colonel?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. And you note that on the second sentence: "During my time --
10 during this time," we're talking about around August 11th, "I managed to
11 take the small roads in the AOR around the Croat check-points to visit my
12 troops and were able to resupply the company camps."
13 If we go to your 2003 statement, if I could just get the P number
14 on that score, that is P309, paragraph 12. The first half of that
15 sentence you said: "I decided to avoid the civilian check-point."
16 So, Colonel, you and the other CanBat soldiers were getting
17 around these check-points relatively easily, weren't they?
18 A. Yeah, but we had military vehicles and we can go off road with
19 military vehicle more easily than a normal commercial pattern vehicle or
20 a car because a car off road doesn't work like a jeep or an APC, armoured
21 personnel carrier. And then I will say what we've seen in the area, most
22 of the people looting were using the main roads, they were not using
23 small roads because they could not travel over those small roads.
24 Q. Now, sir --
25 MR. KEHOE: If I might have one just brief moment.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. Now, Colonel, let me take a look at P317.
4 A. Which one is that?
5 Q. It's going to go up on the screen, Colonel.
6 Now, Colonel, this is the map that you talked about your
7 observation posts upon, but there are numerous roads in and around those
8 observation points in your sector, both main roads and side roads, aren't
10 A. I will say there were a few roads and many trails.
11 Q. Well, let us go to a map that maybe we can see some of this a
12 little bit better, and that would be 1D270036.
13 Colonel, these are a series of roads in the south-east corner of
14 Sector South, basically your AOR, area of responsibility. And it sets
15 forth here main roads and side roads through various villages, as you can
16 see. And in your statement of P308 on page 4 you note that it would have
17 been very easy to prevent looting and burning.
18 Based on this map and these roads, Colonel, how many check-points
19 would have been needed in your area to stop the looting and the burning?
20 A. I will not say the numbers. I mean, you would have to do an
21 assessment for that, but were on the ground at the time we were there
22 because there were check-points all over the places and especially around
23 the villages and the main access roads, I mean those locations I didn't
24 add up how many Croat armies check-point there were all together, but
25 there were a lot of them, all over the place there were check-points. So
1 I cannot give you a number here, but the only comment I will say that the
2 amount that was there deployed on the ground was sufficient to have a
3 positive control of the area.
4 Q. Using a, with the assistance of the usher, Colonel, just with the
5 assistance of the usher could you use a pen and mark on this map the
6 potential check-points that you believe would have been needed to prevent
7 this activity.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, I have to confess, I can't
9 quite see what area we are looking at here. The top of the map says
10 UNCRO Sector South - South-east corner, if we could focus --
11 MR. KEHOE: It's the south-east corner as opposed to just taking
12 an area in the north which is also just north of Srb which is also part
13 of Sector South that obviously has no pertinence to the Colonel's
15 Q. We can blow that up more if you want, Colonel.
16 A. That will be useful.
17 Q. Yes. I apologise if it's a little difficult.
18 Just orient yourself, Colonel. You can see Zadar, the city of
19 Zadar on the left-hand side and then Benkovac. Is that good? Yeah.
20 A. Okay. As you can see, the size of the -- the scale that we have
21 now, we can start to make sense of what we see there. But to control I
22 will say the traffic, you look at the main roads going in the area. If
23 you are to put a check-point there and then a check-point coming to
24 the -- because what I -- what is in blue is a zone of separation that you
25 have put there on your --
1 Q. That's correct, Colonel.
2 A. So if you put the main street coming in in the AOR itself, I mean
3 from the north, and then it's right there, so those are the main ones.
4 And I will concentrate, I will say and they put there -- they put this
5 one -- in fact, if you were forming -- to keep it simple, we'll do it
6 closer to the zone of separation to avoid if you want to have any people
7 coming into the area or -- because the zone of separation was also mined
8 and people were concerned to go to the zone of separation in a minefield.
9 So they will tendency to keep on the street.
10 So if you want to control the area itself so you establish your
11 entry points, potential entry points that you see on the map in the zone
12 of separation, that will be easier and you need less check-point to have
13 a control going in and out. But in addition of it, if you want to
14 control inside the area you may add some others depending on the area
15 that you want to control. I mention the city of Benkovac, that there
16 were check-points all around the city of Benkovac on the main artery to
17 control the access. So that's an example of how you establish control.
18 Q. And, sir, you've placed no Xs on any of these smaller roads
19 coming into Sector South between those check-points, did you?
20 A. It depends of the quality of the dirt road. I mean, some are
21 very rough dirt road that you cannot go with trucks or civilian cars.
22 You need an armoured personnel carrier or a jeep to go on those trails.
23 So from the map here I cannot say which one is good enough for traffic, I
24 will say normal traffic, versus military vehicle traffic.
25 Q. You noted for us that some of them were very difficult roads, but
1 from your observations you noticed that people were moving quite
2 regularly on these side roads with vehicles, weren't they?
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, the witness never testified to
4 that effect. The testimony was that the witness and his -- the CanBat
5 took routes avoiding the check-points, not people.
6 MR. KEHOE: I note in his testimony at line 15: "Some were very
7 rough dirt roads that you cannot go with trucks or civilian cars."
8 Q. And my question is: There were other roads, other dirt roads
9 that you observed people, civilians, et cetera, travelling on right
10 easily, very easily, didn't you?
11 A. What I observed is -- you see the main arteries, those were the
12 paved roads. Those were the ones that you saw the most of the -- I will
13 say -- I will not say convoy, but many, many vehicles with looting
14 effect. But the people were leaving throughout the area, so they were
15 going to a specific house and then taking whatever in the house and then
16 going to the closest distance to the main road and then go out of the
17 Krajina, out of the -- towards the -- towards Croatia per se.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Morneau, could I ask you one question.
19 The area you just covered by these markings what you would
20 consider the number of check-points you would need to exercise control
21 over this looting, how many check-points actually were there? So apart
22 from where you would put them, but could you give us an approximate
23 number of the area you just now filled in with your projected
24 check-points? How many were there approximately in total?
25 THE WITNESS: That's a good question. In that specific area of
1 the battalion?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The -- well, let's say the area you considered
3 when marking your check-points on this map, that same area.
4 THE WITNESS: The -- are you referring to the check-point that
5 the Croats had in place?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that actually you described in your statement
7 and your testimony, that there were check-points.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
9 JUDGE ORIE: There were --
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So on this whole area how many check-points actually
12 were in place, so apart from how many you would need and where you would
13 put them, but in total.
14 THE WITNESS: I will say that there were maybe between 30 and 50
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Kehoe, the Chamber when you -- I mean, the witness marked ten
18 check-points he said he would need and then you say but you didn't mark
19 any. But of course the -- let's not lose ourselves in the --
20 MR. KEHOE: There are more check-points if we move up the page.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. KEHOE: If we can just move this up a bit.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Kehoe, when you invited the witness to
24 mark where he would put his check-points, the Chamber exchanged -- the
25 Judges exchanged as their own position that this was not a very helpful
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
4 Can we move this page up a bit and if we can rotate down to the
5 Drnis area -- Your Honour, I understand if we could move this into
6 evidence and move it down the page because I understand that I can't move
7 this after markings are made.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, zooming in and out and moving I think is not
9 possible once it -- however, it is possible.
10 THE WITNESS: If I may, Mr. Judge --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I first please deal with the very
12 technical matter of this map.
13 Ms. Mahindaratne, any objection against this?
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D286.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. D286 is admitted into
19 THE WITNESS: The marking I put on the map, the marking is an
20 illustration where I will put is not a complete analysis where I put them
21 all. I mean -- I mean, that's just to illustrate what type of locations,
22 but if you want to do an exhaustive study about the area and then you
23 want to control the area and then you have to add up a lot more of those
24 check-points there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE: We can bring this exhibit back up without the
2 markings on it. And we can just scroll up a bit to the bottom.
3 Q. Now, sir, looking at this particular area going through, going
4 down from Benkovac you would put yet more check-points on this border
5 area as well, would you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And just -- if you can, just mark those areas as well.
8 A. But now I am outside my battalion AOR there, that's the Kenyan
9 Battalion AOR there on the east. But that's for the -- I will say the X
10 I just put there again is for the entry point in the AOR. Maybe could
11 add another here if the trail is -- depending on the quality of that
12 trail. You have to access it from the ground, what is the access, is it
13 is a trail that was use, that was usable or not, then if it is potential
14 access, you put a check-point. If there is no traffic or no potential
15 for traffic, you don't put a check-point.
16 Q. So potentially you're talking about quite a few check-points
17 depending on whether or not these are passable roads; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. KEHOE: Now -- Your Honour, I'll move this into evidence as
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, no objections?
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D287, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: D287 is admitted into evidence.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Just going back to a question, to follow up a question that Judge
3 Orie asked you about and I think you responded about people with property
4 coming through the check-points.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you recall that, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it was observed that that was taking place?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You don't know whether or not those people were getting back
11 their property or stealing someone's property, do you?
12 A. I mean, getting back their property is impossible for me to
13 assess. I mean, they were bringing a lot of material, farm equipment,
14 furniture and cattles and everything that was coming from the area. Who
15 it belongs, I mean for the past number of years it was Serbs that were
16 living there.
17 Q. Now, Colonel, you mentioned something this morning about soldiers
18 coming back. The front line soldiers who had passed through that were
19 very upset about the destruction that they saw --
20 A. I mentioned one.
21 Q. One --
22 A. One officer that I spoke, that he came back the following week
23 and he was surprised to see how much destruction there had been because
24 the first wave didn't have time to burn houses and destroy, but it was
25 the following troops and the following people behind the first wave that
1 did that destruction. But like I said, the second week after the --
2 there was some redeployment of the troops, they didn't stay on the border
3 with Bosnia
4 area to take positions. I don't know what plan they had, but we saw some
5 coming back.
6 Q. And some of these -- were some of these troops that had gone
7 through, were they deployed to Bosnia
8 A. I cannot say up to where they went. They stopped -- maybe some
9 stopped at Knin, whatever the place, they passed us and some came back.
10 Q. Now, this officer that you talked about that expressed some
11 surprise at the destruction, did he also express some shame that that had
13 A. I want -- I cannot say if it was shame or -- but he -- when I
14 talked to him, he was surprised to see that much destruction because when
15 they did the attack the Serbs fled, you know, they all fled and it was a
16 quick advance when they progressed and there were a lot more destruction
17 when he came back than when they went through.
18 Q. Colonel, I want to move to a subject that was talked about in
19 your statements concerning the observation posts, and I know that you
20 weren't in the sector at the time, but I just want to ask you a few
21 questions about what you learned about similar to what was asked on
23 Basically, Colonel, your job in the area was one of - and I say
24 CanBat's job in the area - was one of observing and reporting; isn't that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you say observing and reporting, can you just tell me
3 what you mean by that just a little bit?
4 A. Okay. There were a cease-fire agreement established between the
5 Croats and the Serbs, and the UN as a normal fashion under Chapter 6 of
6 the UN Charter deployed troops into position between the belligerents and
7 you are there to keep that buffer zone as free as much as possible either
8 as part of the belligerents so we don't reignite the conflict. So that
9 creates space for a negotiation to have a lasting peace settlement. So
10 the aim of the mission was to occupy that zone and observe and report and
11 we were doing a bit more than that, but if we saw something or somebody
12 coming into the zone we are going to intercept them and say, Hey, you
13 don't have any business here, then we're escorting them outside of the
15 Q. When you say observe and report, what were you reporting?
16 A. If there were any activities like illegal crossing of the zone of
17 separation, that's when -- we were in the normal operating mode before
18 the offensive, if there were an infringement of that zone of separation,
19 then we had to report that and then try to resolve that issue by
20 convincing, by negotiation and persuasion, the party that was not
21 following the cease-fire agreement.
22 Q. Colonel, let me ask you, are you familiar with this order that
23 came from Zagreb
24 bring it up and show it to you, it's 1D270002 to 1D270009. And if I
25 can -- are you familiar with this document? If we can turn to the next
1 page. This is a document that has written on the top there, Colonel, 24
2 July at 1400. And this was signed by General Alradan [phoen]. This is a
3 document that came in after the events in Srebrenica, isn't it, Colonel?
4 A. I mean, 24th of July, first of all, the 24th of July I was not in
6 Q. Okay. Did you become aware of this document at all?
7 A. I don't have a recollection of this document.
8 Q. If I could just -- could I ask you a specific question and see if
9 it jogs your recollection. If we could go to page 5 of 8, and in that
10 phase 3 area of -- this is dealing with Sector South. Were you aware
11 this order had been given at phase 3, ii when and where possible
12 interpose between the warring parties in the Dinara mountain.
13 Were you aware of that, sir?
14 A. Yes, I remember that there were problem in the east and they were
15 -- fact they even consider to redeploy part of my battalion more to the
16 east to help, they were looking at redeployment in Sector South to have
17 more troops in the east.
18 Q. Now, this idea of interposing between the warring factions, was
19 that a change in your mandate to observe and report?
20 A. No. I mean we do observe and report by interposing ourselves in
21 between. That is why we do deploy in the zone of separation in between,
22 we interpose ourselves between the Croats and the Serbs.
23 Q. But not engage in any degree of combat?
24 A. No, because we were under chapter 6 and chapter 6 of the UN tells
25 you that can only use force in self-defence.
1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time I'll offer this cable into
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
4 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As D288, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D288 is admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
10 Q. Now just to go into the events, and you had talked quite a bit
11 about the reports that had come in to -- and that you had reviewed,
12 albeit after you came back into the sector, and if we can just address
13 the information you received concerning the 4th and the 5th, basically
14 the 4th. If I can turn to P314, paragraph 1.
15 Now, paragraph 1 of 314 notes that: "A warning from CEM ...
16 CCUNPF at the 3rd of August 03, at 2200 hours indicates a possible
17 Croatian offensive ..."
18 Now, sorry sir.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you aware that that warning had come in?
21 A. Yes, I was told by my deputy when I came back that they had
22 received that warning at 10.00 before.
23 Q. And was the warning that the Croats were going to attack the
24 following morning?
25 A. They didn't specify the specific time-frame, but they said that
1 it was an imminent attack.
2 Q. Now, with this imminent attack, and I understand that you weren't
3 there, Colonel, the CanBat 1 still had their soldiers out in the
4 observation posts that we saw in P317, did they not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is there some reason why with the imminent attack or you being
7 informed of the imminent attack why the troops were not brought back to
8 battalion headquarters in Rastevic?
9 A. Because that will defeat the purpose of our mission. Our mission
10 is to, like I said, to make an interposition between the two belligerents
11 and observe and report. So if we all return to camps, there's no -- we
12 don't complete our mission.
13 Q. Well, a code red was declared at 0400 on the 4th, yet the CanBat
14 1 was still not taken out of those observations posts, isn't that right?
15 A. Yes. Code red means you stay in place, you don't travel if not
16 necessary except on an emergency.
17 Q. Now, Colonel, you understood that during this time that looking
18 at this particular attack on an international level, it was in the best
19 interests of the Croatian army to use their best efforts not to hurt any
20 UN employees; isn't that right?
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's a rather useless question, Mr. Kehoe.
22 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, it's always whatever the witness says about
24 it. Of course that goes without saying. Let's not talk about the
1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. KEHOE: I won't belabour the point but there are a certain
4 amount of facts that need to be brought out that can be discussed with
5 this Chamber down the line, and I'm simply trying to lay those facts out.
6 But if Your Honour accepts that as a given, then I'll move on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Have you ever considered this Chamber to think that
8 it was in the interests of the Croatian forces to inflict damage on the
9 UN personnel there?
10 MR. KEHOE: Well, Your Honour --
11 JUDGE ORIE: If that would be in the interests, not what was
12 done. I mean, we're talking about facts primarily.
13 MR. KEHOE: Yeah, I understand.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witnesses come and tell us what they have observed,
15 what they have seen, what they have heard, and what the in the interests
16 of A or B. At least I -- but let me just check ...
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I accept the conclusions that the
20 Chamber has made on this score and I will just move to this next subject.
21 Q. Now, you note in Exhibit 311, if I can just quote it for you and
22 get the proper page. This is 311, page 2 of 7, paragraph 20.
23 A. You said page 2 of 7?
24 Q. We're going to bring it up on the screen, Colonel. It's a
25 document that the Prosecution put into evidence.
1 Excuse me, I apologise, 312, it's the follow-up. 312. I
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, the document that was provided to me has
4 a different paragraph 20 than the document that has been admitted into
5 evidence, which has none. As you note, there is no paragraph 20 there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although there are a few lines which follow
7 the --
8 MR. KEHOE: Those are different than the document that was
9 disclosed as part of the 92 ter submission --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEHOE: I will quote what I have and we can clarify the
12 matter, but --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it appears to me, Mr. Kehoe, that first of
14 all the -- where in paragraph 19 the English says A, B, C, apparently the
15 other version says 1, 2, 3. And then where in the B/C/S version there
16 are four lines which form paragraph 20, by comparing the most obvious
17 parts of that text it appears that, although not numbered, the next four
18 lines in the English appear at first sight with all reservations I can
19 make to present more or less a similar matter.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. KEHOE:
22 Q. Now, using the document that's on the screen, Colonel --
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, if I may interrupt, I believe
24 the English translation on e-court at the moment is the incorrect one and
25 that is correct, in fact, what was tendered with the 92 ter submission is
1 not the one that is on e-court so there has been another confusion. I
2 apologise for this.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that everyone accepts the apologies.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE:
6 Q. So let me just read to you the document that I do believe was
7 submitted, it notes that: "They," talking about the Croatian army,
8 "demonstrated a great deal of precision in their shelling."
9 Colonel, that was what you were told during the period of time
10 after you came back and you were debriefed, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it was that that led you to conclude, if I may, in your 1996
13 statement on page 3, that's P308, to conclude on page 3 paragraph -- the
14 fourth full paragraph you note that -- you see that: "Also during
15 Operation Storm," are you with me, Colonel?
16 A. I'm trying to find it.
17 Q. It's page 3.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Five paragraphs down: "Also during Operation Storm ..."
20 This is your 1996 statement, the first one.
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. It is on the -- you see it on the screen, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You note it says: "Also during Operation Storm the Croatian army
25 shelled three CanBat observation posts all located in the zone of
1 separation. Two of these posts were under Charlie Company and one under
2 Bravo Company. Fortunately, nobody was killed. Serbs were close to
3 these OPs and in my understanding the Croats aimed their weapons against
4 the Serbs. I wouldn't say that these UN posts were shelled deliberately,
5 but rather due to the near proximity of the Serbs."
6 Now, that's based on the conversations that you had with your
7 subordinate staff members when you returned; is that right, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, there was an incident, sir, where the Croats went to the
10 observation posts and attempted to get your soldiers to vacate those
11 observation posts; isn't that right?
12 A. In many instances, yes.
13 Q. Let me show you, if I can bring up 1D270033. As we're bringing
14 this up, Colonel, this is a column that you wrote for -- let me see, the
15 Sun Media -- the Ottawa
16 orient yourself on that, sir. And if we can go to the second page --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which paragraph?
18 MR. KEHOE: The first full paragraph: "Our rules of
19 engagement ..."
20 Q. "Our rules of engagement permitted the use of force in
21 protection only. The Croats were well aware of this fact and approached
22 our isolated observation posts in groups of 20 to 40 soldiers in a
23 non-threatening" manner.
24 So it would be accurate to say, Colonel, that when the Croatian
25 army went to these observation posts, they went up there and began a
1 series of discussions with the individuals in those observation posts
2 asking them to leave?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And after those negotiations they didn't -- they did, in fact,
5 leave several of those observation posts, didn't they?
6 A. I mean, some were -- there were eight observation posts that were
7 forced out by the Croats army to go to be sent to Zadar, and the eight
8 others stayed in place.
9 Q. And the areas they were asking them to move out was an area that
10 the HV offensive was moving through?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When they allowed these Canadian soldiers to leave, they allowed
13 them to take their weapons and their vehicles and their equipment, didn't
15 A. Not all of them. It varies from one place to the other. Some
16 the -- they didn't have the choice to leave everything in place and some
17 others they were able to bring that with them. It varies from one
18 observation post to the other.
19 MR. KEHOE: Let me -- if I can move this article into evidence,
20 Your Honour?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
22 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D289, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. D289 is admitted into
2 MR. KEHOE: If I can bring up 1D270037.
3 Q. This is an article from the Canadian Press, Colonel, back on
4 August 8th. If we can blow that up on the front. And we're just going
5 to that fourth insert down where your name is, do you see that, Colonel?
6 And you are talking about the period of time after these individuals left
7 the observation posts you note: "But the Canadians suffered no
8 casualties and neither Serbs nor Croats aimed any hostile action at
9 Canadians, said Lieutenant-Colonel Jacques Morneau, commander of CanBat
11 Is that accurate, sir?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you say that to the press?
14 A. I doubt that I said that aimed any hostile action at Canadians,
15 because there had been a number of hostile actions.
16 Q. Well, there were no casualties suffered by the CanBat forces,
17 were there?
18 A. There were no casualties because of the good work of the soldiers
19 for four months with building up those observation posts with a lot of
20 sand bags, because if there had not been at those defensive protection,
21 there would have been casualties.
22 Q. And then they were taken down to Zadar; is that right?
23 A. The one that were forced to evacuate the observation posts, yes.
24 Q. Let me show you a video --
25 A. But not all of them.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. The initial ones on the 4th, they were evacuated to Zadar, but
3 then when the I will say the rules of the deception of coming close
4 friendly and then invading the observation post was kind of bad. They
5 would pass around and people were more alert and more resisting I will
6 say the eviction of the observation post.
7 Q. Colonel, was there individual --
8 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, we've just got to wait to catch up.
9 Your Honour, before we move forward I will move this article into
11 Your Honour, before I move on to this video if I can just move
12 this article into evidence, 1D270033 -- excuse me, 0037. It's the
13 article of --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
15 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D290, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: D290 is admitted into evidence.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. Colonel, did you have an individual on your staff by the name of
22 Jeff Agnew, do you recall?
23 A. Yes, I think it was my public affairs officer.
24 Q. I'd like to show you a video, and the video is -- begins at
1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, the booths have transcripts of this
3 JUDGE ORIE: And we follow the usual procedure that if it goes
4 too quick that one of the interpreters checks whether what is on paper
5 has been said and the other one has an opportunity to interpret.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. KEHOE: This is a CBC news clip from 6 August 1995. If we
8 can play this
9 [Videotape played]
10 "Of course, there are Canadians caught in this conflict. More
11 than 750 Canadian peace keepers are serving in the region at bases and
12 observation posts. Early on in the fighting Croatian forces took some
13 Canadians from their posts and moved them just outside Krajina to Zadar
14 where they remain tonight. Joining me tonight to talk about the
15 situation is Jeff Agnew, commander of the Canadian forces in Croatia
16 Lieutenant-commander Agnew, what is the latest on the Canadians
17 in Zadar?
18 "Well, we have 43 soldiers who are in Zadar. They are currently
19 staying in a Croatian camp, they are guests of the Croatians, they are
20 free to move about. However, we are waiting now until the fighting
21 ceases and we can make arrangements to take them back to their base camp
22 in Rastevic.
23 "There are reports today that some UN peacekeepers are being used
24 as human shields by the Croats. You have no reason to believe that the
25 Canadians are at any risk at Zadar.
1 "No, not at all. In fact, once it was clear that we were going
2 to abandon our observation posts they were most cordial, they escorted us
3 out of the area, took the soldiers back to Zadar, they in fact stayed the
4 night in a hotel. The only thing they are really concerned about is
5 their continuing on with their offensive operations and you just don't
6 need a number of stray soldiers moving about the field that no one knows
7 about and so the Canadians will simply wait in Zadar until they have an
8 opportunity to return back to
10 "So how many Canadians are currently staffing outposts in the
12 "Well, we have 43 soldiers who are in Zadar. They are currently
13 staying in a Croatian camp, they guests of the Croatians, they are free
14 to move about. However, we are waiting now until the fighting ceases and
15 we can make arrangements to take them back to their base camp in
17 "Lieutenant-commander Agnew, thanks so much for talking to us.
18 "My pleasure."
19 MR. KEHOE:
20 Q. Colonel -- Colonel, the comments by Mr. Agnew, I'm not familiar
21 with his rank at this point, but of Mr. Agnew an accurate assessment of
22 what you were informed of the treatment of these individuals when they
23 were taken to Zadar?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Well, sir, let me turn your attention to -- excuse me, before I
1 do that I would like to tender this video into evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
3 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D291, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D291 is admitted into evidence.
7 Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock. This is the usual time for
8 a break. Could I get -- I don't know how much time you would further
9 need and I would like to inquire with the other Defence counsel as well.
10 MR. KEHOE: I have a very brief, Your Honour. If I could take
11 the break right now I could just discuss it with my co-counsel I think we
12 could finish very quickly if we took the break now.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You know that terms like very quickly, et cetera --
14 MR. KEHOE: I would say no more than ten minutes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No more than ten minutes.
16 Other Defence counsel.
17 Mr. Kay.
18 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there may be some issues that I raise, but
19 it would be no more than ten minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, 15 to 20 minutes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'm looking at the clock. Ten minutes for
23 Mr. Kehoe, until 1.00; ten minutes for Mr. Kay until ten minutes past
24 1.00; and then, Mr. Kuzmanovic, until 1.30 for you.
25 Would that be a good schedule, Ms. Mahindaratne?
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, based on what has come out
2 so far I don't anticipate more than five minutes of re-examination.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that's ten minutes left for the Chamber.
4 We would also discuss during the break how much time we would need. We
5 will break until ten minutes to 1.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any news on your position in relation to P319, the
11 video of which we saw only a part?
12 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, no objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear of any other objections, therefore
14 P319 is admitted into evidence.
15 You may proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
16 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if I may. Is it possible, I was cut
17 before we --
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Colonel, I'm going to come back to that where you were cut off
20 and just let you follow in from there.
21 A. If I may just, I mean, following the video I was asked a
22 question. I said no but I did not have time to --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, we were now talking about another video which
24 was played earlier, that is the burned, damaged houses, where the Defence
25 asked to look at the whole of the video to see whether there were any
1 objections, but I take it that the video we saw just before the break
2 that Mr. Kehoe will now move to that again.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE:
6 Q. Colonel, I was going to take it off from the no. I'm going to
7 ask you, Colonel, whether that was an accurate assessment -- Mr. Agnew's
8 statements were an accurate assessment of what transpired. You said no
9 mand I was going to give you the opportunity to explain.
10 A. Okay. I mean it was not accurate at all. What he has reflected
11 there was a lack of information of what was exactly happening. On the
12 6th of August, first of all, Mr. Agnew was in Rastevic in the battalion
13 camp and the individuals that we are talking about, they were in Zadar,
14 so he had never had the contact with them to discuss how they were taking
15 prisoners and how they were treated in Zadar itself. So he had no
16 exposure or information about it.
17 Personally on the 6th of August I went to Zadar and I talked to
18 the soldiers, and following that also I did the -- if you go through the
19 declaration of each of the individuals that was taken over, prisoners, it
20 was not in a friendly manner, it was very threatening manner.
21 Also in Zadar they had no freedom of movement. I mean, they were
22 sequestrated. I mean they were well treated but there were no freedom of
23 movement. So we were not abused in Zadar itself, but they had no freedom
24 of movement. And also just to I will say that video-clip is very
25 misleading on what really happened on the ground. The
1 lieutenant-commander, the individual Mr. Agnew is a lieutenant-commander
2 in the Canadian navy and I don't want to undermine the Canadian navy but
3 they don't know the army staff as a proper army officer. So I will be
4 cautious about the comments that that individual did pass on to the media
5 on that specific day because it's not the reflection of what had been
6 seen and what had been reported by the individuals.
7 Q. Let me just with that answer go to P314, paragraph 57. This is a
8 portion of the report that the Prosecution put into evidence through you.
9 And if you can read paragraph 57, this is a CanBat report on the sequence
10 of events: "57 of our soldiers in Zadar were well treated, they were fed
11 and housed by the Croats free of charge."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you agree with that?
14 A. I do agree like I just said a minute ago. They were well treated
15 as normal prisoners, but they were not in a friendly manner like it was
16 depicted in the video-clip for Mr. Agnew or lieutenant-commander Agnew.
17 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated]
18 I believe I moved the video into evidence as D291.
19 Q. Colonel, thank you very much for your time and I appreciate that.
20 MR. KEHOE: And I have no further questions, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: As far as the video is concerned, Mr. Registrar,
22 that is in evidence now?
23 MR. KEHOE: I do believe it is at 291, Judge.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, that is correct, it is
25 admitted as Exhibit D291.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what my recollection tells me.
2 Then Mr. Kay.
3 MR. KAY: I only have some brief questions for you, Colonel --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay is -- Mr. Morneau, is counsel for
5 Mr. Cermak.
6 Please proceed.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:
8 Q. The matter I want to ask you about concerns the role of Croatian
9 army liaison officers. Looking through your reports that have been
10 exhibited to the Court we can see frequent references in those documents
11 to Croatian army liaison officers with whom you had dealings. Is that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Looking at them for my part it seems like you were dealing with
15 them on a regular basis?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was that on a day-to-day basis?
18 A. We had -- I had my own liaison officer that were on a daily basis
19 in Zadar dealing with them. Personally I was not on the daily basis but
20 on infrequent occasion I was going to Zadar to discuss with them
22 Q. And just to clarify matters, you had your own Canadian army
23 liaison officer liaising with the Croatian army liaison officer; is that
24 what you meant, to be clear?
25 A. It is clear and it is very unusual I will say, if you allow me to
1 explain that situation, an unusual situation because normally when you
2 have a theatre of operation when you have belligerents, the interposition
3 force will deal directly with the force deployed on the ground. So like
4 my troops, the OPs, the company commanders will have the opportunity to
5 go on both sides of the zone of separation to discuss with either the
6 Croats commander, the brigade commander, the battalion, the company
7 commanders, and the same thing on the Serb side. But in this instance
8 the Croats army did restrict any contact of any UN soldiers to be in
9 direct contact with the Croats whatever echelon that they had. They all
10 had to go through a liaison officer.
11 Q. Yes, and you've hit precisely on the matter I was going to ask
12 you about. And we can see in relation to the dealings with the 43
13 Canadian soldiers who were subject to the control of the Croatian forces,
14 that you were dealing with a Croatian army liaison officer in sorting out
15 that problem. Is that right?
16 A. I mean, in a sense, yes. We had to go through the CALO in Zadar
17 to negotiate the release of the 43 Canadian officers.
18 Q. And you said CALO, it's C-A-L-O, Croatian army liaison officer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Just to tidy up our record here.
21 What rank were you dealing with the Croatian army liaison
23 A. Navy captain.
24 Q. Was that Mr. Lukovic?
25 A. One of them, yes.
1 Q. And the names of the others?
2 A. Milojanic [phoen] or something like that. I will have to check
3 the notes somewhere.
4 Q. And did they refer to Zagreb
5 with the problems that you were raising?
6 A. No, they were dealing with Split, the headquarter in Split
7 Q. Right. Were you aware that they had a commander in Zagreb
8 brigadier Prestina [phoen] who was in charge of the Croatian army liaison
10 A. Not that specific brigadier. My understanding they were
11 reporting to the joint commanding officer, Gotovina.
12 Q. Gotovina?
13 A. Gotovina, yes.
14 Q. The number of Croatian army liaison officers that you were
15 dealing with, are you able to help us?
16 A. I mean, the other liaison office, so they were -- I would say the
17 lead of that liaison office were the two navy captains that we just
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. But there were other staff working for them. So I don't know the
21 numbers what they have.
22 Q. Thank you. Just leaving that point there as that's all I need
23 ask. One other matter. In relation to the 43 Canadians who were
24 detained, was that a matter that was raised at a political level, far
25 higher up as between your state and the Croatian state so far as you
2 A. As far as I know, it was not raised through the Canadian
3 political level as far as I know, but it was -- we were detach
4 operational under command of the operational control of the UN, so it was
5 a responsibility of the UN to do a political representation. So my
6 superior was the sector commander in Knin who report to the force
7 headquarter in Zagreb
8 Secretary-General there that was I will say dealing with the political
9 dimension. So it will have been in Zagreb
10 interface between the UN forces and the Croats political authorities.
11 Q. Yes. Any -- I have no need to ask you any further matter about
12 that. You've given a clear answer. Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
14 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Morneau?
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Morneau, Mr. Kuzmanovic is Defence counsel for
17 Mr. Markac.
18 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Mr. President, may I just mention something
19 just before Mr. Kuzmanovic starts?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. MAHINDARATNE: In fact, Mr. Kuzmanovic inquired to the
22 annexes to the particular document P318 --
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's the five-page document.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Five-page document which has 26 pages of
25 annexes to it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We have now cleaned it up on e-court and I'm
3 in a position to tender it into evidence if I would be allowed to do
5 JUDGE ORIE: So what was admitted as P318 which was uploaded as a
6 longer document, that is a five-page document with attachments is now
7 replaced by the same five pages but without the attachments.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: With the attachments.
9 JUDGE ORIE: With the attachments.
10 MS. MAHINDARATNE: With the attachments.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So -- but you tendered at the time specifically only
12 the five pages, isn't it?
13 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But you have changed that.
15 Then I have to ask if there are any objections against the
17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I guess the difficulty is that that was
18 not an exhibit to cross-examine on that was coming into evidence so I
19 have to reserve at this point and review that matter.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Ms. Mahindaratne, I think it's fair where you earlier said that
22 it was just the five pages that Defence counsel have the opportunity to
23 go through the -- to go through the attachments.
24 There is another matter, that we then have to then re-consider
25 any protection of the personal details which appear apparently in these
1 attachments. Isn't it true that I asked you whether the reason for the
2 protection you were seeking was the personal details we find in the
3 attachments. You said yes. I said if you only tender the five pages you
4 don't need the protection anymore, but now I didn't hear you applying for
5 the document or at least the attachments being tendered under seal.
6 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, that's what I would -- if
7 I'm allowed to do that, Mr. President, I would tender the annexes perhaps
8 as a separate exhibit under seal.
9 JUDGE ORIE: As a separate exhibit now. So we do not replace it
10 but we have the annexes now separated.
11 The Chamber would like to hear from the Defence soon whether
12 there are any objections, but if it is a separate document has it been
13 uploaded separately on e-court so without the five pages?
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, under 65 ter number 3990,
15 when the document will be brought up, the annexes will come up first, and
16 since the five pages have now been separately tendered, Mr. President, we
17 are in a position to tender the annexes separately.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Separately as well.
19 Mr. Registrar, when verifying how it was uploaded could you
20 please take care that it's just the attachment and, therefore, not -- and
21 could you perhaps already assign a number. It will be marked for
22 identification since no decision on admission can be taken right now.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P320 marked
24 for identification under seal.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 May I take it that we receive not later than next Tuesday
2 position by the Defence?
3 MR. KEHOE: Absolutely, Judge.
4 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
8 Q. Sir, you said you were out of -- at the end of July you were not
9 in Croatia
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. How long -- where were you?
12 A. I was in Greece
13 Q. From how long were you in Greece
14 A. I was about a week -- a bit more than a week.
15 Q. What was the date that you returned to Croatia?
16 A. That I was supposed to return or I did return?
17 Q. That you were supposed to return and that you did return.
18 A. I returned on the 6th to Croatia
19 return was a few more days after. I don't know the specific date, but it
20 was supposed to be a few more days after.
21 Q. I'd like you to -- well, you had been asked some questions about
22 the check-points and the composition of check-points that you observed.
23 Did you happen to see any patrolling going on in and around those
25 A. I mean, we saw movement of Croat army vehicles or personnel.
1 It's difficult to determine if it was a patrol or just a movement between
2 locations. So I cannot ascertain if it was patrols or movement of
3 personnel in the area.
4 Q. Okay. So it's fair to say that you don't know if there were any
5 patrols of civilian police or military police or joint at that particular
6 time; correct?
7 A. Like I said, a patrol is a moving entity that goes over the
8 territory and there were such things, but I cannot qualify them if they
9 were specifically on a mission to patrol or they were movement of
10 individuals or entities in the area.
11 Q. Okay. You had come to Croatia
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you were in that particular area in your CanBat from April of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have any contacts with the ARSK civilian police before
17 Operation Storm yourself?
18 A. Not with the civilian police, no. With the ARSK military, yes,
19 but not with the civilian police.
20 Q. Was there anyone on your staff that was subordinate to you that
21 would deal with the civilian police before Operation Storm?
22 A. My -- normally if it was -- my military police are the one that
23 deal with other police forces. So if people were to deal with the
24 civilian police, that would have been my military police or my liaison
1 Q. And who was the person in charge of liaising with the civilian
2 police before Operation Storm in your battalion?
3 A. Like I just said, I mean on a daily basis -- depending if there
4 were an incident, that could be the military police themselves or if it
5 was more an operational matter, then the liaison officer would take that
7 Q. Okay. Who was the liaison officer at the time before Operation
9 A. We had three liaison officers.
10 Q. Do you remember any of them?
11 A. I have a bad memory for names. I will have to check the notes.
12 Q. Were those the same liaison officers that served after Operation
13 Storm as well for the civilian police?
14 A. I mean, when you refer to civilian police it's not something that
15 strike my memory because they were not prevalent in the Krajina side. I
16 don't remember to have seen Serbs civilian police. Most of the people I
17 saw was military people on the Serb side.
18 Q. Okay. Let's focus now after Operation Storm. You said you would
19 observe Croatian civilian police at check-points and at other places
20 within your area of responsibility; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, who was responsible from your battalion to liaise with the
23 Croatian civilian police after Operation Storm?
24 A. No specific individuals. In each of the company area of
25 responsibility, the company commander has a responsibility of making
1 liaison with whoever is in his own area of responsibility. So it falls
2 under the company commanders to do so, and himself can delegate to his
3 lieutenant, his platoon commanders, depending on what is the situation.
4 Q. Now, were you aware of what the civilian police structure was in
5 your area of responsibility after Operation Storm?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever try to find out what the civilian police structure
8 was in your area after Operation Storm?
9 A. Personally no, but possibly my intelligence officer, I'm quite
10 sure that he was trying to find out the structure of what was operating
11 in our area of operation.
12 Q. It would be logical, then, would it not, if you saw or any of
13 your people in your area of responsibility would happen to come upon a
14 crime scene, that that would be reported then to the Croatian civilian
15 police, would it not?
16 A. Normally it should have been.
17 Q. Do you know if it was?
18 A. I mean when we had -- when we had the incidents, I'm sure that
19 they were reported to Zadar at the liaison officer. That was our main
20 contact for the past five months that we were in the theatre.
21 If specific police -- because I don't recall the location of the
22 headquarter of the police force as such on the Serb side because there
23 were police officer on the check-points. But since we didn't have access
24 on the Serb side we had no latitude to go and patrol on the Serb side, so
25 for us it's very difficult to then establish relationship with the
1 specific structure.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly request you both to make a
3 short pause between each question and answer, please.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry. I have two signs here to tell me to
5 do that and I'm ignoring them, so I'm sorry.
6 Q. I simply want to focus, sir, on the Croatian civilian police.
7 You had said in answer to my question that you -- "when we had the
8 incidents I'm sure that they were reported to Zadar at the liaison
10 Would that have been the Zadar liaison officer civilian police or
11 the Zadar liaison officer military? Could you clarify that, please.
12 A. We were always dealing with the CALO in Zadar, but it might -- if
13 I remember from the operation on, there were additional people at that
14 office. And if I recall correctly there were also police representatives
15 at that CALO office.
16 Q. Do you know who that was?
17 A. No.
18 Q. How close were you to Benkovac in terms of distance?
19 A. It was Benkovac, 1 kilometre more or less.
20 Q. You were just outside of Benkovac, correct?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. And Benkovac has a police office, does it not?
23 A. The Benkovac -- probably. I mean, when you say after the
25 Q. Sure, after Operation Storm.
1 A. So you mean the Benkovac -- then it will be the Croats --
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. -- police. Yeah, I suspect there were police entity there
4 because Benkovac became the central point. Like I said earlier, there
5 were military control from that location and I suspect there were also
6 police headquarters or police entity there that controlled the police in
7 that area or make at least liaison with the military -- the Croats
8 military force there.
9 Q. Okay. I just want to know, sir, what you know. Benkovac is a
10 kilometre away from your battalion headquarters, and Benkovac would be
11 logically the place that you would report something, a crime, a killing,
12 some looting, some burning, so that could be potentially acted upon,
13 would it not?
14 A. No, because first of all we didn't have access to Benkovac after
15 the operation. We were -- there was check-points that prevented us to
16 enter Benkovac. And secondly, the modus operandi that we had was always
17 to go through the CALO in Zadar and we kept that modus operandi.
18 Everything that we had , we were reporting to the CALO in Zadar.
19 Q. Okay. You didn't have -- you were in Ben -- or in your battalion
20 headquarters until September 4th; correct?
21 A. 4th or about, yes.
22 Q. And you are not telling me you could not go into Benkovac from
23 the time of Operation Storm until September 4th, are you?
24 A. No, I think -- I don't know the date. At one point we could move
25 through Benkovac, yes.
1 Q. Okay. So at least at some point --
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. So at some point in time you could go into Benkovac, correct, you
4 just don't know exactly when?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And are you telling me that the -- that you yourself as the
7 commander of the battalion did not know the location of the police office
8 in Benkovac?
9 A. No.
10 Q. My statement is correct?
11 A. Your statement is correct, but my subordinates might know because
12 if you look at the map that was presented with the layout of the
13 battalion, Benkovac was within the area of responsibility of Charlie
14 Company, and Charlie Company was the one responsible to deal with the
15 entities within its own AOR. So at the company level I will -- I'm quite
16 sure that they had established some liaison or contacts with the elements
17 in their own AOR.
18 Q. How far is Zadar from your battalion headquarters?
19 A. Kilometres, I think it was 10, 15 kilometres or something like
21 Q. So in essence are you telling me that whoever was responsible for
22 liaising with the civilian police would liaise with some person that
23 you're not sure of in Zadar?
24 A. What I'm saying is at the battalion level they were dealing with
25 Zadar, at the company level they were dealing with the locals, entities
1 on their own area of responsibility.
2 Q. Sir, I would like to ask you a question about your statement of
3 August of 1996, page 5, I believe that's P308. If we could get that up,
4 Mr. Registrar -- I'm sorry. I had the transcript on.
5 In the middle of the paragraph there, sir --
6 A. Which paragraph?
7 Q. "At some point," in the middle of the page. I should be more
9 "At some point I heard that the Croat soldiers had received
10 instructions not to take prisoners. I do not remember whether I heard it
11 directly or if one of my subordinates heard it from the Croat officers.
12 My understanding was that the underlying message was that instead of
13 taking prisoners, they were supposed to kill them."
14 The first question I'd like to ask you about, sir, is: Who did
15 you hear this information from that Croat soldiers had received
16 instructions not to take prisoners?
17 A. Like I said, I don't recall exactly if I heard it myself in one
18 of the exchanges I had with some of the Croat officers on the ground or
19 if it was one of the subordinates that reported that to me. But in
20 discussions with Croats troops it did come up throughout the period of
21 time -- at one point in the period of time that they had instructions not
22 to make prisoners.
23 Q. Now, you also said that the -- your understanding was that the
24 underlying message was that they were supposed to be killed and not taken
25 prisoner. Where did you get that information from?
1 A. That was a kind of deduction based on what we were witnessing in
2 the area. I mean, if you look at what happened, I mean you have to put
3 in the context. I mean in the spring when we had the invasion of Sector
4 West there were rapid movement of the Croats troops. In fact, they were
5 so fast that they overwhelmed the local population and then there were
6 big problems with the prisoners behind their own lines, the front lines.
7 And what we saw in the Operation Storm was, I will say, a more deliberate
8 approach by shelling the first day in different villages and positions
9 and kind of letting a pause, an operational pause during the night to get
10 the population to move away to Bosnia
11 So from what I observed of those two different operations in the
12 spring versus the one Operation Storm, they were kind of designed to --
13 not to end up with a lot of Serbs in the area. They would have preferred
14 to shell the village and scare them to send them to Bosnia, as opposed to
15 make an offensive and then you have a big problem in the hands with so
16 many thousand of people that you have to -- what do you do with them.
17 Q. Sir, is there any evidence, credible evidence that you have that
18 the Croatian military was killing people instead of taking them prisoner,
19 meaning armed combatants, any?
20 A. We don't have any -- I didn't witness any specific killing, but
21 just a matter of deductions, if you see people that are civilians after
22 the offensive that are found -- some bodies are found on the streets and
23 there is no other people around except the military, so who else can kill
25 Q. I'd like to call 65 ter 2885, please.
1 Before we get to that document, you would agree with me, sir,
2 that your assertion that prisoners were supposed to be killed instead of
3 taken prisoner is purely speculative, is it not?
4 A. It is a deduction, I will say, based on what we heard from some
5 Croats, exchange with my soldiers or officers, and what we have seen on
6 the ground. You can make a deduction that those people that were killed,
7 I mean it happened and also --
8 Q. What people were killed?
9 A. Some civilians, Serb civilians that have been killed in the area.
10 Also the people that came to our camp, I mean all of them, they came
11 because they were fearing for their life and they have been threatened to
12 be killed if they are not going away. So if they are not going away
13 maybe they will end up one of those bodies we found on the streets.
14 Q. Let's go to page 8 of this 2885, please. This is a document that
15 was put on the Prosecution's list of exhibits.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, before we continue you said earlier
17 that whether the witness would agree with you that his assertion that
18 prisoners where are supposed to be killed instead of taken prisoner. I
19 think that his assertion was that not prisoners were supposed to be
20 killed but individuals before becoming prisoners were supposed to be
21 killed, which is not the same. So I was a bit confused about the
22 question, but if you do not take --
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Well --
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't take prisoners, you can't kill a
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Well, that's true.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, prisoners to be killed suggests that
3 the witness would have said that once persons were taken prisoner that
4 they would then have to be killed, which is not from what I read in his
5 statement is what he said.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: All right. Thank you, Judge.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: 65 ter 2885 is an August 15 report, essentially
9 reporting on the engagements of military police units in Operation Storm,
10 just military police. And on page 8 of that document there's a section
11 3.4 that discusses engagement of military police units in receiving,
12 escorting and processing captured members of paramilitary units.
13 And if we go to page 9, during this ten-day time-frame according
14 to this report 688 individuals, members of paramilitary and parapolice
15 units and escorted 799 -- 91 civilians to Ministry of the Interior
16 reception centres.
17 Q. So at least within this ten-day time-period, sir, there is
18 evidence that the military police took prisoners and it did not kill
19 prisoners; correct?
20 Yes, I'm asking you.
21 A. First of all, that document I suspect it was for the entire
22 Operation Storm. I mean, like I said, the wave -- the offensive, all the
23 Serbs -- most of the Serbs withdrew on the night of the 4th to the 5th
24 and then they were moving towards Knin and then towards Bosnia. So where
25 these 888 individuals have been taken prisoners, I suspect they were much
1 more in the eastern side of the Krajina pocket as opposed to my AOR of
2 responsibility. So I could not comment to say how much or how many have
3 been taken prisoners in my AOR. I think if any, there were very few in
4 my AOR. They were gone to the east.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I would like a number for this
6 document, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne.
8 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D292.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D292 is admitted into evidence.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: One more document, Your Honour, and then I'll be
13 done. 65 ter 2743.
14 Q. It's an August 8th document from the Croatian Ministry of Defence
15 military police administration, and on page 4 of that document, if we
16 could go to page 4, there's a notation that: Now, Sibenik and Zadar and
17 Sinj on that page are all within your area of responsibility, are they
18 not or were they?
19 A. Sibenik Zadar and?
20 Q. Sinj, S-i-n-j, they are the first three cities listed in the
21 middle of that page.
22 A. Sibenik and Zadar, yes, but the other one, I don't recall the
24 Q. Well, at least as of August 7th it's shown that 80 -- 114 people
25 were essentially taken prisoner and arrested within your area of
2 A. I will not say necessarily in my area of responsibility. If you
3 look at the road system, the road from Knin to Zadar passed through my
4 area of responsibility, so those prisoner may have been taken in or
5 around Knin itself.
6 Q. Were you aware whether or not Knin had an area in which prisoners
7 were taken?
8 A. No.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'd like to have a number for this
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No objection, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D293, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: D293 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm just double-checking this
16 document for a moment.
17 That's all I have, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
19 Ms. Mahindaratne, any other questions?
20 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, I have a couple of questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please keep in mind that there are
22 seven minutes to go and there may be some questions from the Bench.
23 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MS. MAHINDARATNE: May I call up Exhibit P313, please.
1 Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:
2 Q. Colonel Morneau, it was suggested to you by Mr. Kehoe that the
3 Croatian forces who captured the CanBat observation post allowed them to
4 take -- allowed the CanBat personnel to take their equipment and
5 vehicles, et cetera. Now, you said some of the equipment was not taken.
6 Do you know what happened to the remaining equipment that was left behind
7 in the observation posts?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Mahindaratne, is that not a question that is
9 answered in the statement of this witness, that when he returned to those
10 posts that they had to establish that most of the equipment was gone?
11 Isn't that in his statement?
12 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Yes, Mr. President, I withdraw that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's already in evidence.
14 MS. MAHINDARATNE: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I withdraw that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MS. MAHINDARATNE:
17 Q. We have -- and it was suggested to you that the Croatian forces
18 in fact treated the personnel well and you were shown a videotape, I
19 think it was D290, where there -- CanBat personnel was seen making a
20 statement. Now, it was you who negotiated the release of the CanBat
21 personnel who were taken prisoner. Isn't that the case?
22 A. The final negotiation, yes, but it had started from the 4th of
23 August which I was not there. But when I arrived on the 6th and then I
24 took on the direct negotiation with the CALO in Zadar.
25 Q. And I'd like you to take -- to take you to page 2 of this
1 document -- actually, page 3, if you could focus on the time slots at
2 8.25, that's the English version page 3. You could go through the hard
3 copy if you have it before you.
4 A. Okay. I got it.
5 Q. If you could move on the next page, please, I think what's on the
6 screen is page -- yes.
7 Now, there is an entry that -- at 8.25: "CS 51 wants to tour the
8 operation post with the Croats to ensure that they don't steal anything.
9 The HV staff the observation from observation post tower 39 our Sergeant
10 Dispens [phoen] to go back inside the TTB."
11 I think the translation here is incorrect, Mr. President.
12 A. It's APC.
13 Q. APC?
14 A. Armoured personnel carrier, or transport de troupes blinde, in
16 Q. So as not to be seen on the Croatian side in the ARSK. And then
17 at 8.33 it is recorded: "The Croats inside observation post of SC 51 are
18 more hostile. They threaten to throw a grenade into the APC." That is
19 recorded at 8.33, isn't it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I wanted to draw your attention to it based on the suggestion
22 made by Mr. Kehoe that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is a bit argumentative, but please proceed.
24 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Now, you were asked about check-points and personnel.
1 MS. MAHINDARATNE: No, I withdraw that, Mr. President.
2 Q. One last question, Colonel Morneau. You were asked a question
3 that if orders were given and they weren't carried out, and this is at
4 page 50, line 1, it's a case of lack of effective control and you
5 responded yes. Now, based on your observations, did it seem to you that
6 the military units of the Croatian army present on the ground lacked
7 control from their chain of command?
8 A. What we saw is that the Croats were much better organized and
9 much better disciplined at the conduct of the operation and they did show
10 a good, I will say, professional dimension as a professional army as
11 opposed to the Serbs that was much lower in the quality of their
12 professionalism. I mean, we could see the difference that the Croats had
13 been -- had gone through a better training and they were better what I
14 will say regiment -- what we call regimental in a sense that they could
15 have a better cohesion, better command and control, and when they execute
16 the operation did show that they have a good level of command and control
17 on their troops.
18 Q. Thank you, Colonel Morneau.
19 MS. MAHINDARATNE: That's all, Mr. President.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza has one question for you.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, Mr. Morneau, in answer to your question, I
24 think it was put to you by the Prosecution in the morning, you made
25 reference to the fact that during the process of looting of the houses
1 that was observed, some houses were not touched. Yesterday we heard
2 evidence to the effect that in some cases there were notices, written
3 notices, put on the doors of those houses that were not touched. Did you
4 have the same understanding?
5 A. I don't have the same recollection if there were specific notes
6 on the houses that were not attacked. Maybe some of my soldiers saw
7 those notes, but personally I don't have a recollection to have seen
8 those notes on the houses.
9 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Okay. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Morneau, I have one question for you. In
11 documents that were admitted into evidence, P311 and P312, among other
12 information we find, I hope you remember the documents, the one which was
13 the follow-up of the first one, you described the weaponry available to
14 the parties. And in P311 you described the ARSK weaponry. In P312 you
15 described the Croatian weaponry. Now, among the specifically mentioned
16 Serb weaponry I do not see multiple rocket-launchers, whereas I see them
17 for the Croatian forces.
18 Now, can I ask you should I interpret this report as to say that
19 the Serbs did not have multiple rocket-launchers or that you were not
20 aware of them having multiple rocket-launchers. How should I interpret
21 the difference between the reporting on the Serb and the Croatian forces
22 in this specific respect?
23 A. During the five months we were there, when we came across any
24 multiple rocket-launcher from the Serb side, I don't know about the other
25 AORs, but from the meetings we had on a regular basis at the sector it
1 never came as an evidence that they possessed that kind of weapon which
2 is more sophisticated, more powerful weapon than a normal mortar as such,
3 but we never had any evidence that they had that kind of weapon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And as far as the Croatian side is concerned what
5 level of detailed knowledge do you have about the multiple
7 A. That was during the Operation Storm itself when they were firing
8 those -- it's very significant, it's very different the firing of a
9 multiple rocket-launcher and a mortar and they used that type of weapons
10 to fire on villages or positions, depending on the target.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any details as to which type
12 exactly of multiple rocket-launchers?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Which make, which calibre?
15 A. Possibly my intelligence officer could have that information, but
16 not me.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
18 Have the questions put by Prosecution and the Bench triggered any
19 need for further questions?
20 MR. KEHOE: Just one, Judge.
21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
22 Q. Colonel, with regard to the possession of the ARSK
23 multi-barrelled rocket-launchers in response to Judge Orie 's questions,
24 the observations that you are talking about are observations in your area
25 of responsibility and not throughout the rest of Sector South; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. No further questions.
4 Mr. Morneau, we have been speaking English all morning.
5 [No interpretation].
6 [In English] I wish you a safe trip home again.
7 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
8 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any procedural issues to be raised at this
9 very moment because we will sit tomorrow as the parties are aware of. If
10 not, we resume -- we adjourn now and we'll resume on Monday, the 2nd of
11 June, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom I.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.
13 to be reconvened on Monday, the 2nd day of
14 June, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.