Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4835

 1                           Thursday, 12 June 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and those

 6     assisting us just out of the courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus

10     Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  Mr. Hedaraly, is the

12     Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.  The Prosecution would

14     like to call Witness 16, Mile Djuric.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher.

16             Perhaps, before the witness enters the courtroom, there is a

17     request to add three documents to the Rule 65 ter list.  Are there any

18     objections against?

19             MR. MISETIC:  I believe we filed last night our response.  We

20     have no objections.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Then the proposed new exhibits as we

22     find them in confidential appendix C to the motion that is series of

23     photographs showing location of incident, second series of documents

24     related to exhumation in Plavno on the 11th of December 2007, and

25     forensic analysis of mortar remains, permission is granted to add them to

Page 4836

 1     the 65 ter list.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           [The witness entered court]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Djuric.  Can you hear me in a

 5     language you understand?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, before you give evidence, the Rules of

 8     Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

 9     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  The

10     text is now handed out to you by Mr. Usher.  I would like to invite you

11     to make that solemn declaration.

12                           WITNESS:  MILE DJURIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

15     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Djuric.  Please be seated.

17             Mr. Djuric, you will first be examined by Mr. Hedaraly who is

18     counsel for the Prosecution.

19             Mr. Hedaraly, you may proceed.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

22        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Djuric.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   Can you please state your full name for the record?

25        A.   My name is Mile Djuric.

Page 4837

 1        Q.   And where do you currently live?

 2        A.   I currently live in Belgrade.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter

 4     number 5181, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Djuric, do you recall providing a witness statement to the

 6     Office of the Prosecutor on 25 September 2004?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   And if you look on your screen now, is that the witness statement

 9     that you provided in September 2004?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we can have 65 ter 5182, please.

12        Q.   And do you recall providing a supplemental witness statement to

13     the Office of the Prosecutor on 13 July 2007?

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15        Q.   And that statement will come up on the screen as well, and can

16     you confirm that that is the statement that you signed on 13 July 2007?

17        A.   Yes, I can confirm.

18        Q.   And, Mr. Djuric, did you have a chance to review these two

19     statements yesterday?

20        A.   Yes, I have.

21        Q.   Do these statements accurately reflect what you said to the

22     Office of the Prosecutor in the course of those interviews?

23        A.   Yes, they do.

24        Q.   And the contents of those statements that you signed are true to

25     the best of your knowledge and recollection?

Page 4838

 1        A.   Yes.  This is all the things that I mentioned there I saw.

 2        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions by me today in court as

 3     you were asked in those interviews, would you give the same answers?

 4        A.   Yes, I would.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honours, at this time, I would like to have

 6     65 ter 5181 and 5182 admitted into evidence pursuant to 92 ter.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  No objections, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You are speaking on behalf of all three Defence

 9     teams.

10             Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 05181 becomes P436.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the 2004 statement.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  And 65 ter 05182, which is the 2007 statement,

14     becomes Exhibit P437.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P436 and P437 are admitted into evidence.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             At this time, if we could also have 65 ter 1053 and 65 ter 1839

18     also be admitted.  They are exhibits to the witness statement; and since

19     the statement is now in evidence, the foundation is there, so if we could

20     have those admitted as well, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And these are the -- the first one is the

22     death certificate of Sava Djuric, and the second one is the sketch of

23     witness Djuric describing the location of killing.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  That's correct.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 4839

 1             MR. MISETIC:  No objections.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the first document 65 ter 00151 --

 3     sorry, could counsel please repeat the numbers.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  01053 is the death certificate, and 01839 is the

 5     sketch.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 01053 becomes Exhibit P438;

 7     65 ter number 01839 becomes Exhibit P439.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P438 and P439 are admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, I would like to read out a short

10     summary of the evidence contained in the two witness statements.  I have

11     informed the witness, but I believe it will be helpful if the Chamber

12     also would explain the reasons for reading the summary.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             Mr. Djuric, you have given statements.  They are on paper.  The

15     Chamber has read them.  But since the public has no knowledge of what is

16     in there, Mr. Hedaraly will now just summarize your statement, so that

17     the public is informed as well, before he asks any further questions to

18     you about the content of your statements.

19             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

21             Mile Djuric was a Croatian citizen of Serb ethnicity who lived

22     with his family in the village of Plavno in the hamlet of Djurici until

23     August 1995.  He spent his summers at a house up in the surrounding hills

24     in order to tend to his sheep and prepare wood for the winter.  From this

25     vantage point in 1995, he observed the shelling of the Plavno area during

Page 4840

 1     the first days of Operation Storm.

 2             On 5 August 1995, the witness's mother went to the summer house

 3     to inform him that half of the villagers, including all the young

 4     persons, had left, and she tried to convince her son to join them.  Mile

 5     Djuric refused to flee because he didn't feel in danger and didn't want

 6     to leave his family behind.

 7             The next day, Sunday, the 6th of August, the witness went to his

 8     family house in Djurici and had lunch with his parents, sister, and

 9     grandmother.  At around 4.00 in the afternoon, he left his family house

10     with the intention of buying cigarettes in a store located about 1.5

11     kilometres away from the family house and then return to his summer

12     house.  On his way back from the shop, he noticed a group of Croatian

13     soldiers in camouflage uniforms and escaped their attention by taking a

14     detour through the forest.

15             As he realised that his family house had been put on fire, he

16     decided to go back to Djurici.  He entered the neighbour's backyard and

17     watched the events hidden behind a short wall.  From this location, Mile

18     Djuric saw three soldiers with camouflage uniforms and black masks

19     standing in the backyard of his house, together with his grandmother and

20     his father.

21             The witness's father, Sava Djuric, was wearing civilian clothes

22     on that day.  He was disabled and could only walk very slowly because of

23     an accident that had occurred when he was a child.  The witness states

24     seeing that one of the soldiers was holding his grandmother and told the

25     other two soldiers to throw the man into the fire.  To this, the

Page 4841

 1     grandmother protested that there was no need to kill her son, since they

 2     had already burned the house, but the soldier holding her instructed the

 3     others:  "I am taking the grandmother to the end of the village, and by

 4     the time she comes back, everything will be burned.  Throw him in the

 5     fire."

 6             After the grandmother was taken away, Mile Djuric witnessed the

 7     two remaining soldiers throwing his father in the burning workshop and

 8     locking the door.

 9             The witness fled to his summer house.  On the way, he came across

10     a different group of soldiers wearing the same camouflage uniform who

11     started shooting at him.  He escaped and finally managed to reach the

12     summer house.  The next morning, the witness left for Serbia together

13     with two friends.  He arrived in Belgrade about three weeks later, at the

14     end of August 1995, and has lived there ever since.

15             This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

16        Q.   Mr. Djuric, I now want to just ask you a few questions to clarify

17     what was in your statements that I just summarised.  Can you please

18     describe for us generally where your summer house was located?

19        A.   It was on a hill between Strmica and Plavno.

20        Q.   And how far was your summer house from Strmica?

21        A.   About three kilometres.  Strmica was even closer to the summer

22     house than Djurici, my village.

23        Q.   And before the beginning of Operation Storm, did you hear or see

24     shells falling near your summer house?

25        A.   Shells fell eight days earlier after -- well, after the fall of

Page 4842

 1     Grahovo, they were falling every day from before eight days or maybe even

 2     ten.  I'm not sure.

 3        Q.   And when you say that shells were falling every day, can you give

 4     us an estimate of how many shells would fall in those days?

 5        A.   Those days, few shells fell, perhaps ten to 15 a day, not many,

 6     and those shells came from the Bosnian side.

 7        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to who was firing those shells?

 8        A.   The Croatian army fired the shells.  They had taken Grahovo.

 9     Grahovo fell before Krajina some eight to ten days, and the Serbian army

10     withdrew.

11        Q.   Let me just change your focus now on when you left the house the

12     first time after you had lunch.  You said that you saw your family house

13     in Djurici on fire and that's when you decided to go back.  Can you tell

14     the Court where you were when you saw your house on fire?

15        A.   I saw the house on fire on my way back, about halfway back home.

16        Q.   Was this before or after you stopped to pick up the cigarettes?

17        A.   It was on my way back.  So I bought cigarettes and then I was on

18     the way back to this other house; and then halfway there, I saw that the

19     house was burning.  So then I headed for the house again; although, I did

20     not intend to go back home.  I was headed -- I was heading for the hill.

21        Q.   Before you saw your house on fire on your way back, did you turn

22     around to see if your house was on fire?

23        A.   I was watching the house from the centre, from downtown, where I

24     was at the shop; and as I watched then, nothing was burning.  But as I

25     headed for the hill, then I saw smoke, then I went up higher up the hill,

Page 4843

 1     and then I could see that the house was on fire and the workshop.

 2        Q.   And how long did it take you to come back and see the house and

 3     the workshop on fire?

 4        A.   From the time when I saw the house burning, it took me about ten

 5     minutes.  After about ten minutes, I was at home.

 6        Q.   And what was the -- what was the extent of the burning after ten

 7     minutes when you came back?

 8        A.   When I reached the house, the roof tiles had already started

 9     falling down and the workshop had been burned down.

10        Q.   Do you have any knowledge as to why the fire started so quickly

11     after ten minutes or so?

12        A.   Well, I don't know.  It was all made of wood, and my grandmother

13     told me that they used some spray, that they had a bottle of some sort

14     that they threw into the workshop.  What it was, I don't know, but this

15     is what my grandmother saw.

16        Q.   Mr. Djuric, I want to ask you a few questions now with respect to

17     your father, Sava Djuric.  Was your father a member of the army of the

18     RSK?

19        A.   No.  He was handicapped and he was not in the army.  He didn't

20     even serve in the army as a conscript.  He was not capable.  He was

21     handicapped.

22        Q.   And can you describe very briefly how it is that he was

23     handicapped?  How did he become handicapped?

24        A.   He was unfit.  He could not walk properly, even since his

25     childhood, and we used to say that it's because of the cold water.  But

Page 4844

 1     as he grew older, it was more and more difficult, and his legs just could

 2     not support him.  So he did not move, he did not venture far away from

 3     the house.

 4        Q.   In your statement, you say that his handicap was a result of an

 5     accident when he was a child.  Do you know what that accident was?

 6        A.   Well, it was an accident.  He swam or was bathed in cold water,

 7     and I don't know what the disease was called.  But from what our

 8     grandmother told us, she had taken him to the doctor.  I don't know what

 9     kind of disease it was, some sort of paralysis.  I'm not sure.  But when

10     he was young, he managed to get married and have a regular life.  But as

11     he grew older, he had more difficulty walking.  I don't know how to

12     explain it.

13        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you.  That's helpful.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we have 65 ter 5183, please, which is a series

15     of pictures taken in your hamlet.  If we can Mr. Usher's assistance to

16     help the witness mark some of these pictures as we go through them.

17        Q.   Mr. Djuric, do you see that -- this picture on the screen in

18     front of you?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   And can you tell the Court what this represents?

21        A.   This is the photo of my village.

22        Q.   Can you see your house in that photo?

23        A.   Yes, I can see it.

24        Q.   Could you please circle it with the pen with the assistance of

25     the usher?

Page 4845

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.  Mr. Registrar, if we have that picture

 3     saved, and move on to the next page of this document.

 4        Q.   It just takes a few seconds for the system to be able to save

 5     your marking, that's why we are --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the photographs are under one exhibit

 7     number, the whole series.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you want to have the marked series as a whole

10     under one number as well?

11             MR. HEDARALY:  I think that would be more convenient, Your

12     Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  Whenever we're ready, if we can move to the next

15     page.

16        Q.   Mr. Djuric, do you see this picture now in front of you?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   And can you confirm that on the left side, the red gate that we

19     see with one door closed and one door open, that's the gate to the

20     backyard of your house in Djurici; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Behind that, we see a portion of your house; is that right?

23        A.   That's right.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, is there any way in using the curser

25     to point more precisely?

Page 4846

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Of course.

 2        Q.   Can you please use the cursor, not to mark it, but just use the

 3     cursor and point on where the gate is to the entrance of your backyard?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If the usher could assist the witness to point at

 5     where the gate is.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the gate and this is house.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Someone should move the cursor in such a way that we

 8     draw the attention of the witness to the --

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I think he has to point with the pen.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I think it's --

11             MR. HEDARALY:

12        Q.   The cursor now is on your house; is that right?  You see the

13     little arrow on the screen, and that's your house?

14        A.   Yes.  Now the cursor was on the gate and now it's on the house.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we go back on the gate, please.

16        Q.   And that's the gate?

17        A.   That's the gate.

18        Q.   Now, can you mark in red for the Court where you were standing

19     when you observed the incidents that are described in your statement.

20     And you can explain also where you were, if you want to, in words, in

21     addition.

22        A.   I can also explain in words.  I was next to this house, the

23     neighbour's house.  Again, I was leaning against the wall of the house.

24     This house was -- had a fence, a wall fence, a stone fence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please assist the witness in marking where

Page 4847

 1     exactly he stood when he observed the events.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:

 3        Q.   Can you please make an "X" as to where you were standing on this

 4     picture?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher shows the witness how he can mark the

 6     place.

 7             Mr. Usher, the red pen, and then you can do that on the screen.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness marks with an "X."

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  If we can have that saved, please, and then

11     move to the next picture.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  I have no objections, Your Honour, but I think it

14     would be convenient if we could be advised as when those pictures were

15     taken.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  Those pictures were taken last year, and

18     there will be a few more pictures that will be shown in this series that

19     were taken earlier this year.  So they were all taken in the last year.

20     Is there any other clarification that is being sought?

21        Q.   Mr. Djuric, the picture you see now is a view of this gate we

22     just saw earlier and your house in the background.  Is this roughly the

23     view that you had of the incident, or were you closer or further or to

24     the right or to the left of the view that you have on this picture?

25        A.   This is my gate, and I was behind the wall that you can see on

Page 4848

 1     the photograph on the right-hand side.

 2        Q.   Can you please show us where the wall is with the cursor?

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  Can I have Mr. Usher's assistance to help the

 4     witness to point the cursor to where the witness says we can see a wall

 5     on the picture?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  The cursor is not in the hands of the witness.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here, this is the wall where I was

 8     behind it.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:

10        Q.   Can you mark that with an "X" as well, please, in red.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

13             Can we have that saved then and move to the next page, please,

14     and then to the next page, Mr. Registrar.

15             For Mr. Mikulicic, the previous picture, this picture, and the

16     next one were taken earlier this year, in March 2008, I believe.

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Djuric, this is the -- this is your backyard; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Can you identify for the Court with the pen, can you circle the

20     entrance of that workshop where you saw your father being thrown in?

21        A.   Yes.  Yes, I can.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.  Can we have that saved as well, and we

23     can go to the last page.

24        Q.   That's just the same picture with your house and the yard from a

25     different perspective; right?

Page 4849

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, if we could have this series of

 3     pictures, 5183, as marked by the witness, marked and identified and

 4     admitted into evidence as one exhibit, please.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, we went now through the whole of the

 7     series, at least one of the photographs not being marked by the witness.

 8     Do you want to have the whole series now under this new exhibit number or

 9     only those photographs that were marked by the witness?

10             MR. HEDARALY:  I would like to have the whole series, including

11     the two unmarked ones and the four marked ones.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P440.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P440.  Any objections?  No objections.

15             P440 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. HEDARALY:

17        Q.   Mr. Djuric, in your statement, you mention, and it was in your

18     summary as well, that you heard some exchange between the Croatian

19     soldiers and your grandmother when you were hiding behind that wall.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you please tell us if you heard anything else being said by

22     your grandmother or by the soldiers beyond what was in your statement?

23        A.   I came late, but I heard that; and then later, after everything

24     that I had told you about, my grandmother was wailing so loud that I

25     couldn't hear anything after that.  When she saw that they wanted to

Page 4850

 1     throw him into the fire, she began to wail.  Up until then, she was

 2     silent.  It was quiet.  I don't know what they were saying before I came

 3     though.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Djuric, in your statements, and you heard in the summary

 5     as well, you're here to testify and you observed your father being thrown

 6     into the workshop by some soldiers.  Now, I have to ask you this next

 7     question, and it's not meant to offend you in any way, but there have

 8     been allegations made by the Defence --

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to the question.

10     I don't think he has a right to put the Defence case to the witness on

11     direct.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, if you just put the question without

13     what caused you to put this question.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, I believe that if I just asked the

15     question without the proper rationale for the question, the question will

16     not be understood.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  If you put the question, if the witness doesn't

18     understand, then we'll find out and then we'll see how to proceed.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Let me also reiterate that regardless of how he

20     phrases the question, if it's not something that he intends to put in as

21     part of the Prosecution's case, I don't think it's proper on direct to

22     start putting questions in anticipation of the Defence cross-examination

23     of the witness.  He can wait until redirect to do that, but it's

24     certainly improper, particularly under Rule 90, to put the other party's

25     case to the witness.

Page 4851

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, there are several ways of asking

 2     questions.  You can do it in a positive way, you can seek confirmation of

 3     something, or you can seek confirmation of something not being there.

 4     There are several ways.  Let's first see wait and see how Mr. Hedaraly

 5     phrases his question.

 6             Mr. Hedaraly.

 7             Mr. Djuric, just ignore what we all said, that's lawyer's

 8     language.  Listen to the question Mr. Hedaraly will put to you.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:

10        Q.   Mr. Djuric, once again, I don't want to offend you, but I have to

11     ask your question this way now:  Is your father still alive today?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Are you absolutely certain of what you saw that day that when you

14     saw your father being thrown in the burning workshop?

15        A.   Yes.  I was there, and everything that I told you about I saw

16     myself.  I didn't tell you about anything other than what I, myself, saw

17     and heard.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honours, at this time, I would like to move

20     from the bar table 65 ter 5184 and 65 ter 5185.  5184 is a report by an

21     OTP investigator of the exhumation in Plavno of the remains of Sava

22     Djuric, and the related photographs.  And 5185 is the forensic analysis

23     of these remains that were conducted pursuant to the request from the

24     OTP.  And just to briefly summarize, the results are that the remains

25     were too severely burnt to be able to extract any DMA to positively

Page 4852

 1     identify the remains, but it confirms that they were human remains.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 05184 becomes P441.  65 ter

 6     05185 becomes Exhibit P442.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  P441 and P442 are admitted into evidence.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you very much, Mr. Djuric.  You will now be

 9     asked questions by the other lawyers.

10             Your Honour, that concludes my examination.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

12             Mr. Misetic, may I take it from the position of the lectern that

13     you will be the first one who will cross-examine the witness.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Correct, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, will you now be cross-examined by

16     Mr. Misetic who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

18        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Djuric.

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20        Q.   Let me start by asking, are you able to see the witness

21     statements, your previous witness statements?

22             MR. MISETIC:  Does he have a copy, Counsel?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I take it that you provided a witness

24     statement in the language of the witness.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 4853

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Counsel.

 3        Q.   Are you able to see those statements, sir?

 4        A.   Yes, I see it.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Usher, we are dealing with two statements.

 6     Could you please take care that if Mr. Misetic asks something about one

 7     of the statements, that the right statement is in front of the witness.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I won't be using them at the moment.  If I need to,

 9     I'll ask the usher to assist him.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   Are you able to see me?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you see the Judges?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Where were you on the 4th of August, Mr. Djuric?

17        A.   I was at the house on the hill.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D32-0005,

19     please.

20        Q.   Are you able to see this map, sir?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you need any glasses for assistance?

23        A.   No, no, no.  I don't need them.  I can see everything clearly.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, you see from this map, sir, the village of Djurici is

25     in the middle off towards the left a little bit, and up in the upper

Page 4854

 1     right-hand corner is a place called Djurica Previja.  Is that where your

 2     summer house was located?

 3        A.   Below Previja, perhaps 100 metres; then from the mark, there is

 4     Djurica Previja; so then from that house, maybe another 30 metres or so.

 5        Q.   So, roughly, as the crow flies, it's about 3.000 metres from the

 6     village of Djurici to the house that you were at on the 4th, is that

 7     accurate, at least according to this map?

 8        A.   Yes, approximately that much, yes.

 9        Q.   Now, you see the circle at the bottom of the page, it says

10     Basinac?  That's the --

11        A.   Yes.  That was the centre.

12        Q.   That's the place that you say you went to get some cigarettes; is

13     that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would ask that this exhibit be

16     marked, and I tender it into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  No objections.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D396.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D396 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, I apologise.  Can we go to page 4 of

24     this exhibit.

25        Q.   Mr. Djuric, are you aware or were you aware on the 4th of where

Page 4855

 1     the Golubic army depot was?

 2        A.   I knew where the army depot was.  It was what they called

 3     "Dousnica."  But the Golubic depot was far from my house.

 4        Q.   How far?

 5        A.   Fifteen kilometres away, at least.

 6        Q.   Now, you said, in your 2007 statement at paragraph 8, that two

 7     men in military uniform came to your house several days after Operation

 8     Storm.  You knew one them from the village before.  "They were fleeing

 9     from the front line.  They left their rifles at my house and we left

10     together."

11             And in your 2004 statement, at paragraph 8, you refer to these

12     same men as your "friends."

13             Can you tell us a little bit how these men were your friends or

14     why they were your friends?

15        A.   They were people from Strmica, not from my village; and they were

16     passing by my house, that's what the path was, the road that they took.

17     That's how I came to see them.

18        Q.   Well, in your statement, you say that one of them was from your

19     village.

20        A.   No, no.  None of them was from my village.  Both of them were

21     from Strmica.  I don't know how that was written.  One of them I happen

22     to know from before the war.  I knew him from Knin.

23        Q.   What were their names?

24        A.   One of them was called Sinisa, and the other one was nicknamed

25     "Cikan."  I don't know what his first name was.  The other one was

Page 4856

 1     Sinisa.  I'm not sure about the last name.

 2        Q.   So they were going up into your -- into the area of your summer

 3     house and were taking that route to escape?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was the way out from the village, and it went by my

 5     house.

 6        Q.   Which village?

 7        A.   The road that they took, what we were looking at earlier on the

 8     map, Djurica Previja, that was the crossing of the road from Strmica to

 9     Plavno.

10        Q.   Now, you, yourself, on direct questions from the Prosecutor this

11     morning, seemed to have some knowledge of what had happened in Grahovo a

12     few days before.  You even claimed to know that it was the HV that were

13     shelling Strmica.  How would you know who was shelling?  How would you

14     know what was going on in Bosansko Grahovo?

15        A.   How could I not know?  When I was on the hill and across was

16     Bosansko Grahovo, and the Serbian army had withdrawn from Grahovo and the

17     Croatian army had entered Grahovo.

18        Q.   Were you keeping watch up in that hill?

19        A.   No.  I was not keeping watch.  I was looking after my sheep.

20        Q.   Now, your statement, sir, says that you spent the entire day of

21     the 4th and the entire day of the 5th up in the hill at Djurici Previja?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spent half a year there at times;

24     and before that, I went home.  In that period, I would come home for half

25     an hour and then I would go back to the house on the hill.  That was my

Page 4857

 1     job.  I was simply there every day even before Storm.  I was there for

 2     years.  I built that house myself.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, could you always draw the attention of

 4     the Chamber to which paragraph of which statement, because you earlier

 5     quoted one of the statements as being one of them being "from my

 6     village," where the statement says that the witness knew one of them

 7     "from the village" which is slightly different.

 8             So could you, whenever you take the witness to his statement,

 9     inform the Chamber which part exactly.  And now for the last question, it

10     was the 4th and the 5th, the entire day was what part of the statement

11     exactly?

12             MR. MISETIC:  Just one moment, Your Honour.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  I think that it's paragraphs 3 and 4 in the

14     supplemental statement.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  3 and 4 in the supplemental statement.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Paragraph 3 talks about the 4th and paragraph 4

17     about the 5th.

18             MR. MISETIC:  He says his mother went up to see him on the 5th.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What these paragraphs say is that he was on these

20     days at that location.  It doesn't say anything about the entire day and

21     staying there for all of the time.

22             MR. MISETIC:  It also doesn't say that --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  You say:  "Your statement says that you were

24     there the entire day of the 4th and the entire day of the 5th."

25             That's not what the statement says.  The statement says that he

Page 4858

 1     was there, and that his mother came to visit him.  I do not know whether

 2     he left that place for one hour or three hours and then returned.  Let's

 3     be very precise in quoting from statements of witnesses.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. MISETIC:

 6        Q.   Sir, you spent the entire day of the 4th and the 5th in the

 7     summer house; is that correct?

 8        A.   I was at the summer house not only then, but all the time.  My

 9     mother would come to see me all the time regularly.  And then when she

10     came that time, she told me that I should flee and that all the people

11     from the village had already ran away.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I ask now:  You are talking about two days,

13     the 4th and the 5th.  Did you stay the entire day of the 4th at the

14     summer house and did you stay the entire day of the 5th at the summer

15     house?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 4th, I was at the summer

17     house alone.  My mother didn't come that day.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And you stayed there at the summer house the whole

19     of that day?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, every day including that day.

21     I had things to do.  I was working.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

23             MR. MISETIC:

24        Q.   Is the same true for the 5th, sir, you spent the entire day of

25     the 5th in your summer house?

Page 4859

 1        A.   Yes.  I was there that whole day.  My mother came to see me, then

 2     I went home.  Maybe I was there for ten or 15 minutes, I ate, and then I

 3     went back.

 4        Q.   What I'm wondering, sir, is your statement says that you heard

 5     shelling, why you didn't go back to your family's village in Djurici on

 6     the 4th?

 7        A.   The shelling went on for eight to ten days of the house on the

 8     hill before Oluja began.  I had no idea what was going on at Plavno.  The

 9     only things I knew were what my mother told me what was going on there.

10     That's all.

11        Q.   Okay.  And when your mother came up to visit you on the 5th, you

12     didn't go back down with your mother to the village after she told you

13     that all the villagers were leaving.

14        A.   Correct.  I didn't go down with her.  I sent her home.  I told

15     her that I did not intend to flee because she was telling me that

16     everyone had left and that I needed to flee, too.  Then she returned

17     home.  I went home after that to see what was going on, and then I went

18     back again.  We didn't go home together.

19        Q.   You were aware that there was a general mobilisation order issued

20     by the army of the Republika Srpska Krajina for all military-aged men in

21     the days leading up to Operation Storm; is that correct?

22        A.   I had nothing to do with the soldiers.  All I had was a radio

23     that I listened to.  I was not in contact with the army or with the

24     village practically.  That was all the information I had from the radio.

25        Q.   Can you -- do you have an explanation as to why you, who at the

Page 4860

 1     time was 29 years old --

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, it's clearly in the statement at

 3     paragraph 2.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'd ask that he not coach the witness

 5     with an objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic is entitled to put this question to the

 7     witness.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   Sir, do you have an explanation for why you, as a 29-year-old

10     male, claim that you weren't mobilised by the ARSK?

11        A.   I am unfit for service.  I didn't serve the regular term of duty

12     in the JNA.  I was not a military conscript.  I don't know how to put it.

13        Q.   Your statement, when you were asked that question by the

14     Prosecution, you said you weren't conscripted because you have an eye

15     problem, which is why I asked you a series of questions at the beginning

16     regarding your ability to see the statement, to see me, see the Judges.

17     You don't appear to have an eye problem.

18        A.   I do have a problem with my eyes, and this is evident.  Perhaps

19     you don't notice it.  I went for recruitment in Split in 1983, and it

20     says in my military booklet, that I'm unfit to serve the military term of

21     duty.

22        Q.   Now, when you heard your mother telling you that young people

23     were leaving - and let me find it in the statement - in paragraph 4 of

24     the 2007 statement, it says:  "My mother was pressuring me to leave

25     because all the young persons had left."  When she was saying "young

Page 4861

 1     persons," did you understand that to be military-aged persons were

 2     leaving?

 3        A.   Not just that.  I went down home.  The whole village had left.

 4     Perhaps some ten of them were left behind, not military conscripts or

 5     anything like that.  Everyone has a tractor, a truck, a car, and they all

 6     put whatever they had in the vehicle and they left.  That was it.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could call up 1D32-0019,

 8     please.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into the microphone

10     to his right.  Thank you.

11             MR. MISETIC:

12        Q.   Sir, I'm going to show you the statement that your mother gave to

13     the Office of the Prosecutor in 1998 and ask you a series of questions

14     about this.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  I mean, I'm just worried about showing him a

17     statement that may suggest answers.  If he asks the questions before and

18     if the answer is different, then he can maybe put the statement of the

19     other witness and explore any inconsistency.  But to start by showing the

20     statement and telling him that's what that person said, I think that's

21     highly suggestive and I don't think that would be of assistance to the

22     Chamber.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, it's cross-examination.  We've done it

24     repeatedly throughout the trial, and it's actually to confront the

25     witness.

Page 4862

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if there is any matter which is not yet

 2     dealt with by his own statement, then first ask the question.  I do not

 3     know what you --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  They are from two different perspectives, and I

 5     would like to have him explain why they are two different.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But if it is a matter which is also in his

 7     statement he has given, then we could immediately proceed to confronting

 8     the witness to any statement which is not consistent with his.  If,

 9     however, the matter has not been dealt with yet in his own statement,

10     then first put the relevant questions to the witness and then confront

11     him if there's any inconsistency.

12             MR. MISETIC:  This concerns the 5th, and I believe it was put to

13     him, which is why now I would like to seek his clarification as to why

14     the discrepancies.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think my guidance was clear.  If the matter

16     is already clear here in his statement what he stated on that subject --

17             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- matter, then you can immediately move on if

19     that's the case; and if it's not the case, then you should first put the

20     questions to the witness --

21             MR. MISETIC:  I believe --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- without confrontation.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I believe all the matters are clear from the

24     statement.  But, obviously, if Your Honour feels differently --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you thought that the entire day of the

Page 4863

 1     4th and the 5th was also very clear, and it was not in the statement.

 2     And at least for the 5th, it turned out to be not fully accurate.

 3             I leave it to you at this moment.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave it to you at this moment.  We'll see.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to page 2 of this statement.

 7        Q.   First, I would just like to point out to you that she gave this

 8     statement in April of 1998.  And in the first paragraph, she indicates

 9     that at that time she's living with your grandmother, you, and your

10     sister in a small one bedroom house in Barajevo.

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we could turn to page 3 of the statement,

12     please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  Yes.  She lived -- both the

14     grandmother and my mother and sister lived in with me, but that's close

15     to Barajevo.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Now, on the top of that --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Let me see in B/C/S.

19        Q.   For the events on the 5th of August, she says:  "The first thing

20     I remember is the shelling in the Plavno area.  My family and I were too

21     afraid to leave our homes."

22             She goes on to say:  "From my window, I saw the home of Sava

23     Bucic being hit by a grenade; and after the grenade landed, I saw small

24     pieces grenades flying in all directions."

25             MR. MISETIC:  It's page 2 of the B/C/S, second paragraph.

Page 4864

 1        Q.   Now, she makes no reference to having travelled seven kilometres,

 2     approximately, or six, up to visit you and coming back, and having a

 3     perspective as to what's going on --

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I object, Your Honour.  I mean, now he's

 5     impeaching him with the statement of another witness.  I think what we

 6     see in the other statement, in paragraph 7, she talks about that --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour --

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  [Overlapping speakers]... impeach him.  He cannot

 9     mislead the witness that way.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, this is completely improper --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, Mr. Misetic may proceed with this line

12     of questioning.

13             MR. MISETIC:

14        Q.   Sir, your mother, in her 1998 statement, made no mention of

15     travelling six or seven kilometres by foot to see you in the village.

16     Can you explain why she had, at least in 1998, no recollection of having

17     travelled that distance?

18        A.   Yes, I can explain.  I will answer both your questions.  The

19     house that my mother mentioned was not hit by a shell; it was hit by a

20     tank shell, a tank projectile.  This house below my house was hit by a

21     tank.

22             As for my mother and her statement, she's an elderly woman, and

23     to begin with, she's illiterate.  Secondly, I state here firmly that my

24     mother came every day up to that house on the hill.  She prepared food

25     for me, so she was there every day with me.  What she saw in the village,

Page 4865

 1     I don't know, but the house that -- indeed, the only thing I saw was the

 2     house that was hit by that grenade or rocket.

 3        Q.   Just following up on that question.  How do you know the

 4     difference between a house that was hit by an artillery shell versus a

 5     house that was hit by a tank shell?

 6        A.   There was no chance that the shell would fall on my village

 7     Djurici because it was at the foot of the hill and all the shells

 8     actually flew over.

 9        Q.   My question is -- you say you did no compulsory military service.

10     My question is:  How did you know how to distinguish between an artillery

11     shell hitting a house and a tank shell hitting a house?

12        A.   I heard that from my mother, and from many other people who were

13     there, who told me about the tank getting to the village and then what it

14     had hit.  And I, myself, know that the shells, which landed around the

15     village on the field, that they could not fall on the village.

16        Q.   Let's move on.  Your mother's statement talks about the 6th.  It

17     says:  "On 6 August 1995, due to extensive shelling, at 8.00 a.m., I went

18     with my daughter and the following persons to the basement of my house:"

19     She identifies the individuals:  "All these persons have the same family

20     name of Djuric."  Your name is not there.  The next paragraph says --

21             MR. MISETIC:  And it's the next page of the B/C/S, please.

22        Q.   "My husband and mother-in-law did not come to our basement but

23     remained in our kitchen.  At 5.00 p.m., we came out of the basement and

24     we saw that my house was still burning.  You entered the basement from a

25     door outside our home."

Page 4866

 1             Your testimony, however, is that on the 6th, you were having

 2     lunch with your family?

 3        A.   [No interpretation]

 4        Q.   Your mother says, in her statement, that she went into the

 5     basement on 8.00 a.m. and came out at 5.00 p.m.  Can you explain --

 6        A.   Not only my mother, they were all in the basement.  Only my

 7     father wouldn't go down there and the grandmother.  And they did have

 8     lunch together with me - I think I said this in my statement - at around

 9     3.00.  My father wouldn't go down to the basement.  He went back to the

10     workshop; whereas, they returned to the basement.  They spent the whole

11     day there, but they came out to have lunch.

12        Q.   Okay.  You note that your mother makes no mention of having seen

13     you on the 6th, and actually identified by name the people who she

14     actually spent time with in the basement.

15             Let me move on to the bottom paragraph here.

16             The last sentence in the English version is, on page 3, says:

17     "My mother-in-law said that as she was being taken away by one Croat

18     soldier, she saw another Croatian soldier force my husband into our

19     burning house."

20             MR. MISETIC:  If you go to the next page, please.  B/C/S, page 3.

21             "I have not seen my husband since and I believe that he was burnt

22     in our home.  Later, when I returned to our home, I saw white ash.  I

23     believe those ashes to be the remains of my husband as we didn't find a

24     single bone."

25             Now, my question for you, sir, is, in her statement, your mother

Page 4867

 1     appears to be relying on what your grandmother told her, yet at the

 2     beginning of the statement, she says she lives with you.

 3             So my question is:  If, in fact, you were an eye witness to this

 4     event, do you have an explanation as to why your mother wouldn't have

 5     said:  My son was there, he saw the whole thing happen, here's what

 6     happened?

 7        A.   I don't know.  I've never read what my mother said in her

 8     statement, nor did I tell anyone that I saw this, that I observed it.

 9        Q.   In the three years between August 1995 and April of 1998, is your

10     testimony that you never told your mother that you were an eye witness to

11     the alleged killing of your father?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   No, you didn't tell her?

14        A.   No.  I didn't tell her, nor did I tell anyone else.  I had no

15     intention of talking about this but the grandmother knew that I was

16     there.  The grandmother prepared every evening food because they thought

17     I would come in the evening to eat.

18        Q.   Did your mother tell you that, at any time after you were

19     reunited in Serbia, that she didn't find any bones in the white ash as

20     indicated on the 1998 statement?

21        A.   I saw my mother a year later, a year after the incident, and the

22     only thing she told me was that they collected whatever remains of bones

23     there were and put them in a shoe box, and that they buried this in the

24     family grave in the graveyard.

25        Q.   Did your mother ever tell you that she and the other remaining

Page 4868

 1     villagers had assumed that your father had fled with you on the 5th of

 2     August?

 3        A.   He could not flee with me.

 4        Q.   But did she tell you that she and the other villagers thought

 5     that your father had fled with you on the 5th of August?

 6        A.   Well, there's nothing to assume or to think, because the

 7     grandmother knew that he had burned and that's why they went looking for

 8     bones in the workshop.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, with respect to the witness statement

10     on the screen, I'd ask that it be marked for identification, and we will

11     await according to the procedures that we've established for a 92 ter

12     with respect to that statement.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D397, marked

15     for identification.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D32-0028, please.

18        Q.   Just to point out, this is another villager.

19             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to paragraph 2, please.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we go into private session, Your Honour,

21     please.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Sorry, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 4869











11 Pages 4869-4870 redacted. Private session.















Page 4871

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  One note, with respect to that statement, if we

 6     could MFI that, and also wait for the 92 ter statement.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The statement that was shown to the witness in

 8     private session, Mr. Registrar, could you --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes D398, marked for

10     identification and under seal.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. MISETIC:

14        Q.   Did you see, in addition to the two men you identified in your

15     statement as travelling through the area of your summer home, did you see

16     any other ARSK soldiers in the area on the 4th or the 5th of August?

17        A.   I saw many people and many soldiers.  This was the way where they

18     crossed over.  But troops, as groups, I did not see.  I saw individual

19     soldiers crossing over, and I saw a lot of women.  These were people who

20     were crossing over because they didn't have any transportation means, and

21     the only way they could walk and get to Bosnia was through there.

22        Q.   Sir, is it possible that your father's house was set on fire as a

23     result of shelling in pursuit of the individuals that were attempting to

24     flee into the area over the mountains?

25        A.   Could you please repeat the question?  I haven't understood it.

Page 4872

 1        Q.   Is it possible that the fire that you say you saw from -- as you

 2     were buying cigarettes, that that fire was caused by shelling as the HV

 3     was pursuing ARSK soldiers out the path that you've identified earlier in

 4     your testimony?

 5        A.   I've already said that not a single shell landed on Djurici.  The

 6     ones that came from the Bosnian side, they all flew over.  So it couldn't

 7     cause any fire.  No shells could cause any fire because not a single

 8     shell landed on the village.

 9        Q.   Thank you, sir.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.  Other Defence teams,

12     Mr. Mikulicic?

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  We have no questions, Your Honour.

14             You have no questions.

15             Then for the Cermak Defence?

16             MR. CAYLEY:  Same position, Your Honour.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Same position.

18             Mr. Hedaraly, is there any need to ask any questions in redirect.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Very briefly, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  I would ask for the Chamber's guidance.

22     Mr. Misetic showed a statement of another witness to impeach, saying that

23     that witness said he never came to visit.  That same witness gave a

24     witness in 2007, where she said:  "The following day, he came to a house

25     in the village.  I don't know how to --

Page 4873

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now you've said it already, Mr. Hedaraly.  You

 2     at least could have asked the Chamber to instruct the witness to take his

 3     earphones off.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I apologise.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That would have been the least thing you could have

 6     done.

 7             What you are actually asking us is guidance to the extent that

 8     where you say this witness was confronted with a statement of another

 9     person, which is not consistent with what he said, and now you say this

10     was not a complete confrontation because that witness gave other

11     statements in which the same matter is dealt with, but then at least in

12     your view not in a consistent way.

13             Mr. Misetic.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Following the Chamber's guidance, if we could ask

15     the witness to take his earphones off.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I expressed myself in very abstract terms, as

17     you may have noted.

18             Mr. Djuric, could you take your earphones off for a while?

19             Yes.  I have not asked the witness whether he understands any

20     English, but the risk seems to be limited unless you request me to.

21             MR. MISETIC:  No, I don't, Your Honour.

22             With respect to that statement, I'm aware of the statement;

23     however, Mr. Hedaraly was also the interviewer for that statement.  And

24     just if we can clarify, before we put it to the witness, whether the

25     inconsistency in the mother's 1998 statement and the son's statement was

Page 4874

 1     put to the mother, before she then said:  "Well, yes my son was there."

 2             Mr. Hedaraly, having been the interviewer, I would think would

 3     have personal knowledge of whether she was asked to clarify the

 4     discrepancies between the two testimonies.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Before I answer, obviously I don't want to testify

 6     on how this statement was taken.  There was also an investigator present

 7     interest.  If it becomes an issue, he can be called because he was also

 8     there taking the statement.  I was present.

 9             I don't know if the Chamber wants me to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that Mr. Misetic

11     invited you to do so.  Of course, you could phrase the question in a

12     different way; that is, what you would expect the investigator to say if

13     he would be asked about that.

14             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the Chamber is aware that you are not

17     here as a witness.  At the same time, the Chamber would appreciate if you

18     could tell us whether, when you were present during this second statement

19     of that other witness, whether you, prior to putting questions on this

20     matter to that witness, whether you informed the witness about I would

21     not say inconsistency, but at least the differences between the statement

22     of the present witness and the witness or the potential witness you

23     interviewed at that time.

24             Was that potential witness informed about it prior to giving her

25     statement, or did you first put the questions to her and then informed

Page 4875

 1     her, or did you inform that witness at all?

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  Obviously, Your Honour, there were many witnesses,

 3     so I can't have a precise recollection.  But, typically --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You know exactly because you came up with the second

 5     statement, so you cannot say that you don't know what witness we are

 6     talking about.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  I know which witness, but the specific questions

 8     and answers that were obviously being asked --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  In relation to this witness.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  In relation to this witness, there were no

11     questions being -- there was no questions put to this witness, Milica

12     Djuric, about a statement given by someone else.  What was --in the

13     course of take ago supplemental witness statement, the Prosecution goes

14     to the previous statement of that witness, and obviously asks questions

15     that can clarify.  And to the extent we believe they are inconsistent, we

16     may put questions to the witness, but we do not show -- no one told the

17     witness:  This other witness said that, is this true or not?

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I was just wondering whether we had a potential

20     problem with protective measures as well, but apparently not.

21             If you would allow me to reread your last lines.

22             Your answer to my question was rather long, Mr. Hedaraly.  Let me

23     try to put it again in very clear terms.

24             When you took the second statement of the witness, where you

25     intend to confront this witness with the second statement of the witness

Page 4876

 1     you were referring to, was that witness, before questions were put to

 2     her, in any way informed about the matters Mr. Misetic pointed out as

 3     being inconsistent?

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  It's just being uploaded right now, and I believe

 7     it's 65 ter number --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And I do understand that there's no need to go into

 9     private session.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour.

11             5202.  And, Your Honour, it's not really to confront the witness,

12     it's just to clarify the record.  I can show it to the witness and ask

13     him a question, but it's more for the Chamber than for the witness.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  It's being released as we speak, so it should take

16     a few seconds.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, Mr. Djuric, we are waiting for something

18     to appear on the screen, and then Mr. Hedaraly will ask some questions to

19     you.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

21             MR. HEDARALY:

22        Q.   Mr. Djuric, Mr. Misetic showed you a statement that your mother

23     gave, and asked you some questions with respect to that about whether you

24     came to the house or not on the 6th of August; do you remember that?

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure whether the witness

Page 4877

 1     answered in the affirmative or the negative.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:

 3        Q.   Could you please answer the question again whether you remember

 4     that discussion you had with Mr. Misetic?

 5        A.   I do remember it.

 6        Q.   On the screen now is another statement that your mother gave last

 7     year.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to the second page of that statement,

 9     and if we can focus on paragraph 4.

10        Q.   And paragraph 4 says:  "I went to talk to my Mile," that's your

11     mother speaking "on the mountain on both Friday and Saturday.  On the

12     Saturday, I told him he should leave because everyone had left the

13     village by then.  He told me that he was not scared and he did not want

14     to go.  The following day he came to the house in the village."

15             Now, is that consistent with what recollection -- what your

16     recollection of what happened on those days?

17        A.   This is consistent.  On the 4th, I was not at home down there and

18     I did not see her.  It's possible that she came there but I wasn't there,

19     and I don't know how exactly to answer this question.  I am sure I did

20     not see her on the 4th, nor did I go down to the village to that house.

21        Q.   But you went down -- your testimony is that you went down on the

22     6th; right?

23        A.   I was in the village on the 5th, too, for a brief period of time.

24        Q.   That's right.  Thank you.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, can we have this marked for

Page 4878

 1     identification.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P443, marked

 4     for identification.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  From yesterday's housekeeping session, it may be

 6     clear to the parties that we keep these statements on the MFI list only

 7     if there is am expectation, and I haven't checked that, that the person

 8     who gave that statement is on the list to come and testify.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  Actually, Your Honour, this witness, the statement

10     of Milica Djuric, is one of the statements that was submitted pursuant to

11     92 bis in the second --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I remember.  So to that extent, she is on the 92 bis

13     list.  Then we leave it marked for identification until the Chamber has

14     given a decision on admission.

15             Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Just to note for the record, in light of today's

17     testimony concerning a 92 bis application, we may wish to clarify some of

18     these matters with the witness herself just to note and reserve our

19     position on that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You would say that calling that witness for

21     cross-examination was something you would be seeking.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, in light of the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, you did already ask

24     for cross, or am I mistaken.

25             MR. MISETIC:  To be honest, I don't recall.

Page 4879

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't have them.  Something comes into my mind.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  If we do --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's marked for identification at this moment.

 4             Mr. Hedaraly.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  The Cermak Defence filed an objection on the 13th

 6     of March, but the Gotovina Defence did not, and that statement hasn't

 7     changed in a long time.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  That's what I'm saying, in light of what has come

 9     up today, I guess our position, then, would be is that we join in the

10     Cermak Defence, and we say that we should clarify this with the second

11     witness.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Hedaraly, if the witness is called for

13     cross-examination on the request of one of the Defence teams, of course,

14     we would not easily say that the just for that.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  That's fine, Your Honour.  I mean, nothing has

16     come out today that was different.  He was shown statements, as notes.

17     It was on my memory.  So they had these inconsistent statements before,

18     so they should have made the objection at the right time.  Otherwise, we

19     would --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  As I said before, it might come down to very

21     practical issues, since at least one of the Defence teams has objected.

22     But the Chamber will look at that.  It's now on the record that even

23     where you did not make an objection to that before, that at least you

24     would like to, I take it then, join the objections.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  And I would also add that there has been --

Page 4880

 1     from our position, there has been significant new information regarding

 2     communications between this witness and his mother in the three year

 3     period, which is not in any of his statements and which we would also

 4     like to explore on cross.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.

 6             And, Mr. Hedaraly, I take it that you would agree that we do not

 7     need any specific written submission, that it's sufficiently on the

 8     record now, for what reasons Mr. Misetic would like to have Milica Djuric

 9     called for cross-examination.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  I know we're past the break.  I only have one last

13     question, unless the Bench has questions.  Then we can take the break

14     or --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I would have at least one question.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it would serve also the interests of the

18     transcribers and interpreters that you put that one last question,

19     because the Bench has one question only.

20             Please proceed.

21             MR. HEDARALY:

22        Q.   Mr. Djuric, there was also mentioned in cross-examination about

23     you not telling your mother about what you saw about you being an eye

24     witness.  Can you please tell us why you didn't tell your mother what you

25     had seen?

Page 4881

 1        A.   I don't know.  I didn't tell anyone.  It wasn't just my mother.

 2     It was very difficult for me, and for years I just kept silent.  I just

 3     listened to what she said.  I don't know why I didn't tell her.  I guess

 4     I just couldn't do that.  Any talk about that particular subject is very

 5     painful for her.  I couldn't really talk about things like that with her,

 6     and she never said anything to me.  We never discussed this particular

 7     theme.

 8             Even I myself don't know what she said in her statement.  I never

 9     asked her about that.  Even though we're living in the same house, I

10     never asked her about it.  I don't know what else I can say.

11        Q.   That's a good enough explanation.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  I have no further questions, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, your last line is comment.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  We can have that stricken, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we don't strike it, but just for you to know

16     that making such comments is not appropriate.

17                           Questioned by the Court:

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, I have one question about your summer

19     house where you were, as I understand, guarding quite a large number of

20     sheep.

21             Would these sheep, when you guarded them, always be in the

22     immediate vicinity of the summer house, or would you move away from the

23     summer house?  Could you tell us on how that works.

24        A.   They were never near.  I would go move around the hill within a

25     circumference of a kilometre or a kilometre and a half on one side and

Page 4882

 1     the other.  I didn't go further than that.  In the morning from 5.00 to

 2     10.00, I wasn't home; and then from 5.00 to 10.00 in the evening, I

 3     wasn't at home.  As for my mother, she would come to see me every day.

 4     She would actually make meals for me.  She would cook for me.  Sometimes,

 5     I wouldn't see her for two or three days.  She would go back home.  She

 6     had things to do there.  She was busy.  And my constant job, my ongoing

 7     job was to look after the sheep.  I didn't have any other duties.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  So, if you tell us that you were at the summer

 9     house, that have I well understood you that you could be anywhere in a

10     range of two even total three kilometres?

11        A.   I said one kilometre.  I was never farther away than two

12     kilometres from the house.  All of this was on the hill.  That was my

13     only job.  How can I explain?  These were not my sheep.  These were the

14     village sheep and I would charge for that, and I made good money in doing

15     this work.  That was my job.  I don't know how to explain it to you any

16     simpler.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you said one kilometre, that could be

18     one kilometre to the left or up hill and one kilometre to the right?

19        A.   Yes, yes.  That's what I meant.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for those answers.

21             Have the questions by the OTP or by the Bench created any need.

22             MR. MISETIC:  No questions, Your Honour.

23             I'm advised that there may be a -- by my colleague,

24     Mr. Mikulicic, there may be a translation question, and I don't know if

25     we wish to have it cleared up while the witness is here.

Page 4883

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If it's a merely a matter of translation --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  It's not translation; it's names actually.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's names.

 4             Mr. Mikulicic, is there any chance that we would need the witness

 5     to further clarify once we know what it is about.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  As far as I remember, Your Honour, the witness

 7     mentioned the surname of the certain person, and that surname wasn't

 8     entered into the transcript.  So if we could just ask him what was the

 9     surname of the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't know what person you are talking about

11     at this moment.  If you would put the question again to the witness, and

12     was it a question put in open session or in private session.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Open.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Open.

15             Please repeat, then, that question, so that we get a clear

16     answer.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Just for the record, this is related to page 21,

18     line 17 of the transcript.

19                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

20        Q.   Sir, let me just re-ask the question because we may not have

21     accurately recorded it.

22             The names of the two soldiers with whom you left the area, I

23     believe you said one was named Sinisa.  Do you recall his surname?

24        A.   Yes.  I said that one of them was called Sinisa, that was his

25     first name, and his last name was Koscica.

Page 4884

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know the name or the surname of the second

 2     individual?

 3        A.   I didn't know the other one.  I just know him by his nickname.

 4     His nickname was "Cikan."  That's how this first man referred to him.  I

 5     don't know his first or last name.  All I know is the nickname "Cikan."

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Djuric, this concludes your testimony in this

 8     court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and

 9     for answering questions that were put to you by both party and by the

10     Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.

11             Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

12     courtroom.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm addressing the parties.  If nothing has changed,

15     it means that we have no further witnesses for today, neither for

16     tomorrow.  That means that we'll not sit tomorrow, and that we'll adjourn

17     in a minute.

18             Since there are no hearings next week, we will adjourn until

19     Monday, the 23rd of June, at 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom I.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.45 a.m.

21                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 23rd day of June,

22                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.