Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5965

 1                           Tuesday, 8 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours, good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             We turn into private session.

12                           [Private session]

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Page 5966











11  Pages 5966-5976 redacted. Private session.















Page 5977

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

18             Mr. Dupud, you've given already a solemn declaration that you

19     will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20     Mr. Hedaraly will now put further questions to you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Your Honours.

23                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

24        Q.   Could you please state your full name for the record.

25        A.   Jovan Dupud.

Page 5978

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Dupud, are you appearing here today to testify

 2     voluntarily?

 3        A.   No.  I came because I received a subpoena from the court.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have 65 ter number 4826

 5     [sic] on the screen, please.  That's the statement of the witness, if I

 6     could provide him with a hard copy in his language.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dupud, do you recall being interviewed by representatives of

 8     the Office of the Prosecutor on 21 and 22 February, 2008 [sic] and

 9     providing a written statement to them?

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Hedaraly, it is 2007, I believe is

11     the statement date.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.  And the 65 ter number

13     should be 4829.

14        Q.   Let me ask you the question again.  Do you remember giving a

15     statement on the 21 and 22 February 2007?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And if you look on the screen on the computer in front of you, is

18     that the statement that you gave?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   Did you have a chance to review the statement before today?

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If we're looking at statements on the screen.

23     If we could look at them always including signatures, which we all know

24     appear on the bottom of the page but are not visible on the screen.  The

25     English, yes, there we are.

Page 5979

 1             MR. HEDARALY:

 2        Q.   And when you reviewed your statement, you informed us of two

 3     minor corrections.  I will just run through them with you and you can

 4     confirm that these are indeed corrections to be made to your statement.

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  I said that two things should be corrected.

 6        Q.   The first one was in paragraph 1 in the last line, when it says:

 7     "I was asked to be released from military duties," it should say:  "I

 8     asked to be released from military duties."  Is that correct?

 9        A.   That's correct.

10        Q.   And in paragraph 4, page 3 of the statement, in the English

11     version, there's a sentence that says:  "A larger second group left

12     starting at about midnight towards villages around Obrovac," and that

13     should be "a larger second group left starting at about midnight from

14     villages around Obrovac."  Is that correct?

15        A.   Around Obrovac, yes.  It says here "the second larger group

16     started leaving around midnight towards the villages around Obrovac," but

17     it should say, "the second larger group left off from the villages around

18     Obrovac towards Serbia around 8.00."

19        Q.   Thank you for that correction.  And with these two corrections,

20     does your statement accurately reflect what you said to the Office of the

21     Prosecutor in 2007?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And the contents of that statement that you signed in

24     February 2007, subject to those two corrections, are true to the best of

25     your knowledge and recollection?

Page 5980

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today that you were

 3     asked in February last year, would you give the same answers?

 4        A.   Absolutely.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, at this time I would like to have

 7     65 ter 4829 be admitted into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  With the additional clarification of the spelling

 9     of the witness's name, we have no objection, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then it is on the record now that the name of

11     the witness is spelled not Dupud but Dupud, D-o-p-u-d, but then

12     pronounced in the way Dopudj.

13             Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P548.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P548 is admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would like to read

18     out a short summary of the evidence of the witness statement.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. Dupud was born in the Obrovac municipality

21     and lived there all his life until Operation Storm.  He witnessed the

22     shelling of Obrovac on several occasions prior to Operation Storm.

23             On the 4th of August, 1995, he observed the shelling of civilian

24     objects in the town of Obrovac such as a cafe/restaurant in the centre of

25     town, a health clinic, and a movie theatre.  He also witnessed the

Page 5981

 1     shelling of surrounding villages such as Krusevo, Bilisane, Zelengrad,

 2     Zaton, Muskovici, Bogatnik, and Zegar.

 3             Mr. Dupud also provides evidence regarding the departure of the

 4     Serb civilian population from the town of Obrovac in the morning of 4

 5     August 1995 and the departure of Serb civilians from the surrounding area

 6     towards Serbia.  He also provides information that he heard about the

 7     killing of approximately eight people, most of them elderly civilians,

 8     from the village of Zegar.

 9             Mr. Dupud also provides evidence about crimes committed by

10     members of the Croatian army during military operations that occurred in

11     June 1992 in Miljevac Plateau and in January 1993 in Maslenica.

12             This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

14             MR. HEDARALY:

15        Q.   Mr. Dupud, I want to ask you some questions to clarify some of

16     the contents of your statement that has now been admitted into evidence.

17             First of all, in paragraph 3 of your statement, you said that the

18     population started leaving the town of Obrovac when the shelling started.

19             Can you please tell us what time that was, approximately, that

20     the people started leaving?

21        A.   The shelling of the area surrounding Obrovac began early in the

22     morning, around 5.00.  The shelling of the -- of Obrovac town itself

23     began around 7.00.  It lasted -- it was very short, but sufficient for

24     the population that had remained in Obrovac because a large majority had

25     houses in villages.  In other words, the people who were in Obrovac, they

Page 5982

 1     left Obrovac.  The evacuation, or, rather, the leaving of Obrovac was not

 2     a planned event.  It wasn't a planned evacuation.  People left Obrovac

 3     any way they could, on their own or on buses, which began around 8.30 an

 4     ended around 10.30.  Already at 10.30, there were no civilians in

 5     Obrovac.

 6        Q.   I'm just trying to parse through your answer.  I asked you about

 7     what time the civilians start leaving.  So are you saying that that would

 8     be before 10.30?

 9        A.   Yes, from Obrovac itself.  In other words, immediately after the

10     shelling stopped, the shelling of Obrovac town, and in this group my wife

11     and children left so that I really recall this vividly.

12        Q.   Let me turn to paragraph 5 of your statement where you refer to

13     some individuals that were killed from the village of Zegar.  One of

14     these you identified as with the last name Macura and between 65 and 70

15     years old.

16             Do you remember his first name?

17        A.   I think it was Nedeljko Macura, as far as I can remember.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honours, just for the Chamber's information

19     this person is on the list of additional killings and we're preparing a

20     bar table motion for all the documentation linked to those killings that

21     we will try to file shortly.  This witness does not have any other

22     evidence of that so I won't ask him anymore questions, but just so that

23     the Chamber is aware.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll wait until that request or that motion

25     is filed and then we hear from the Defence, I will take it --

Page 5983

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether there is any objection against it.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Just two points so I can make my record here, Your

 4     Honour.  The remaining individuals identified in paragraph 5 are not on

 5     the Prosecution's either schedule in the indictment or on the additional

 6     killings which I think Mr. Hedaraly and I have had an e-mail

 7     communication about.

 8             And the second point is I'm not -- I wasn't sure whether

 9     Mr. Hedaraly was saying that they're going to be bar table documents

10     about this specific incident or bar table documents about many different

11     killings that are not necessarily related to the ones in paragraph 5.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  That is correct.  All the additional -- that is

13     why it is taking quite some time to put together.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll wait and see.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could have 65 ter 5308 on the screen,

18     please.

19        Q.   And, in the meantime, Mr. Dupud, let me ask you, in paragraph 2

20     of your statement you mentioned various locations where shells fell in

21     the town of Obrovac itself.  And the picture that will come up on the

22     screen is one that you marked yesterday and I provided hard copies to the

23     Bench and to the Defence.  The only difference between the version in

24     e-court and the hard copies is the number on the top right, but the

25     substance of the markings has not changed.  So the version in e-court

Page 5984

 1     should be the one what is admitted into evidence but for reference we can

 2     use the hard copies.

 3             It's a two-page document.  If I could also provide a hard copy to

 4     the witness.

 5             Now, on that -- on that first page that you have that shows the

 6     entire lay-out of the town of Obrovac.  First of all, let me ask you is

 7     that a picture of the town of Obrovac.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you have marked on this map the locations where you saw

10     shells fall.  Is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, just for the Chamber's information

13     this is a picture from south to north or --

14             MR. HEDARALY:  That is correct, Your Honour.  I believe the

15     mountains in the background on the top of the picture are the Velebit, so

16     it would be south to north.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  South to north.  Thank you.

18             MR. HEDARALY:

19        Q.   Maybe the witness can confirm that.

20        A.   Yes, from south to north.

21        Q.   Now, can you tell the Court what the location you've identified

22     as letter A is?

23        A.   Letter A is the factory, a -- the trio factory.

24        Q.   And what did that factory produce?

25        A.   Sports clothes.  Sweatshirts, shirts, and trunks, swimming trunks

Page 5985

 1     and so on.

 2        Q.   Now, in your statement you say you were the director of a textile

 3     factory.  Is that the same textile factory that you have marked as A?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And did this factory produce any military clothes or any other

 6     military goods?

 7        A.   No.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to the second picture, which is

 9     essentially just a portion of this picture enlarged focused on the more

10     central part of town.

11        Q.   And can you please tell the Court what you have identified with

12     the letter B?

13        A.   B?  The letter B is the very centre of Obrovac, the place where

14     the restaurant, the main town restaurant is.

15        Q.   Now, in your statement you said there was a shell that hit there.

16     Did it hit on the restaurant itself or in the square in front?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Which one is it?  On the building, in front, or both?

19        A.   The building itself.  It is very unlikely in Obrovac for

20     something to fall on Obrovac and not to hit anything, because it is very

21     densely populated.

22        Q.   And to your knowledge, was that restaurant or cafe used by the

23     military?

24        A.   It is a cafe.  I don't know exactly how to describe it, but at

25     this time it was closed.  During the war, most of these facilities that

Page 5986

 1     could serve liquor were closed down.

 2        Q.   So this building was not used by anyone.  Is that what you're

 3     saying?

 4        A.   There were people living above it, because it is an apartment

 5     building -- well, actually, above the cafe was an apartment and there

 6     were people living there.

 7        Q.   Do you know who was living there?  Were they civilians or

 8     military?

 9        A.   Civilians.

10        Q.   Let's move to the right of the picture.  What you have as letter

11     C, can you please identify what that building is?

12        A.   C identifies the health clinic in Obrovac.

13        Q.   Now, was that a health clinic used by the military or by

14     civilians?

15        A.   By civilians.

16        Q.   Was there a separate health clinic for the military?

17        A.   Precisely for this reason, so that there would be no excuse

18     provided to shell these targets, the medical facility for soldiers was

19     about 15, or more precisely 12, kilometres away from Obrovac at the

20     hydroelectric power plant where there was an infirmary that was used for

21     treating soldiers and -- or just giving them first aid and then, if

22     necessary, evacuating them.  So this clinic here was not used for

23     soldiers, for treating soldiers.

24        Q.   You say precisely for this reason.  How did you know that that is

25     the reason for which a military clinic was located 12 kilometres away?

Page 5987

 1        A.   I know because I was the one who issued the order while I was

 2     still on active duty for the medical clinic to be moved out of Obrovac.

 3     In part also for practical reasons, because if the -- the other side, the

 4     enemy side, did not wish to enter Obrovac, they couldn't.  It was only

 5     possible by opening fire from two intersections and in this case it would

 6     be logical to take wounded people into Obrovac and then from Obrovac to

 7     Knin.

 8             So the purpose was to have the clinic in a location that would

 9     serve the need of -- for evacuation.  This was a larger facility, but

10     there was another one about 18 kilometres from there.  So, in other

11     words, in Muskovci there was a small clinic and the larger one is in

12     Muskovci which was used for treatment of more substantial assistance, it

13     was in the Kastel, the Zegar Kastel.

14             I did not mention this in my statement but I'm just saying it now

15     for clarification purposes.  In other words, there was absolutely no need

16     to use the Obrovac medical facility for treatment of soldiers.

17        Q.   And finally if I can you ask you what you have marked as letter D

18     on this -- on this picture, can you please tell us what that is?

19        A.   D is where the police station in Obrovac is.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can just have the -- the full picture again.

21     And if I could have the usher's assistance for the witness to identify

22     where his apartment was in the -- in the town.  I didn't have that

23     included because there was a chance of protective measures, but now that

24     can be added.

25        Q.   So if you could please point where your apartment was on this

Page 5988

 1     picture?

 2        A.   Right here, on the third floor of this building that I have just

 3     marked.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Madam Usher.

 5        Q.   There are two more locations in your statement --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the marking, if it is the building on

 7     the north side of the river, then it is just a dot.  Is that ... then it

 8     might be difficult for others to find.

 9             Could you add a letter to that.  That would then be the letter E

10     negotiation to where you marked.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if this is visible.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I see it now.  We can describe it also more

13     easily.  For the record, the witness marked approximately the third

14     apartment building from the left at the north side of the river.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   There are two more locations in your statement where you said

18     that shells fell, the bus station and the cultural club or movie theatre.

19     Can those be seen on this photograph?

20        A.   Yes.  No.  No, they can't.

21        Q.   Why not?

22        A.   The fortress is blocking the view.  It's right underneath that

23     you can find the cultural hall and the cinema is about 150 metres from

24     the police station on the right-hand Zrmanja river bank and it's east of

25     the police station.

Page 5989

 1        Q.   And when you're talking about the fortress you're talking about

 2     the location to the right of the police station we can see an elevated

 3     hill with ruins of a -- that is a castle you're referring to?

 4        A.   Yes, yes, yes.  Yes, the fortress is on the left river-bank.  And

 5     that same river-bank is the bus terminal, about 500 metres to the east of

 6     the fortress.

 7        Q.   And one last series of questions on this photograph.  These

 8     buildings that we see on this photograph, were any of these used by the

 9     military?

10        A.   No.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Can I have the 65 ter 5308, the two pages admitted

12     into evidence, please?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The marking is on then on the second page.

14             No objections.

15                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the original is a two-page document.

17     However, markings were then made on one of these pages later so it should

18     be two exhibits, the first one the original one as uploaded into e-court,

19     and then the second one is the second page now marked by the witness in

20     court.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  That's fine, Your Honour.  Is there any reason to

22     have one exhibit the first page unmarked, just with a mark on the second

23     page?  It is just going to be one less exhibit but --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That is also one possibility but since you

25     introduced them as one exhibit.  So we then split them up.  The first one

Page 5990

 1     is the document marked outside the courtroom.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this is 65 ter 05308 and it becomes

 3     Exhibit number P549.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P549 is admitted into evidence.

 5             Then we have the second document on which markings A, B, C, and D

 6     appear made out of court and markings added in the court.

 7             Mr. Registrar that would be ...

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P550, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P550 is admitted into evidence.

10             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm really sorry.  I know it is my fault.  The

12     first exhibit is the two pages with the markings made out of court.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I think you asked now to have the first of the

14     two pages, that is the stretch photograph with markings A, B, C and D

15     made out the court, that is the first exhibit now, from what I

16     understand, Mr. Registrar.  Then the second document now is the detailed

17     photograph on which markings appeared already I said A, B, C, D, but

18     that's wrong.  It is just B, C, and D there.  I made a mistake, and

19     markings added in the courtroom.

20             Yes, I had forgotten that A is outside of the scope of this

21     second exhibit.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Can we please have D249

24     on the screen, please, and go to page 2 of that exhibit.

25        Q.   Mr. Dupud, what will come up on the screen is a -- is a map of

Page 5991

 1     the town of Obrovac with some markings made on them.  I am going to ask

 2     you some questions about those markings.  Thank you.

 3             First of all, looking at this map, can you confirm that the

 4     location of the police station and of the bridge, which was M-o-s-t in

 5     B/C/S, is accurate?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you also see that there's a hotel that is identified.  Was

 8     there in fact a hotel at that location?

 9        A.   Yes, there still is.

10        Q.   And was that hotel at the time used by the special police?

11        A.   [No interpretation].

12        Q.   During your time in Obrovac, was this hotel ever used by the

13     special police?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Do you know where the special police was located?

16        A.   Several different places, as needed.  Or for whatever reason.

17     The last location used was the village of Golubic.  Beforehand they would

18     mostly use the Zegar location.

19        Q.   And how far is the village of Golubic from the town of Obrovac?

20        A.   About 15 or 16 kilometres.  It is difficult to say, because all

21     these are major villages.  When I talk about these villages and express

22     these distances, I mean the centres of these villages.  For example,

23     Obrovac to Golubic and then when I talk about Zegar and Kastel, when I

24     say distance is 15 kilometres or 18, I mean their respective centres.

25     The far end of Zegar would be about 22 kilometres.  When I say 15 I mean

Page 5992

 1     centre to centre, as it were.

 2        Q.   Maybe we can clarify then.  When you said that you knew that the

 3     location -- last location used was the village of Golubic, did you know

 4     where in the village of Golubic and how far that was from the town of

 5     Obrovac?

 6        A.   From the school building in Golubic, 15 kilometres to Obrovac,

 7     nearly.

 8        Q.   And this hotel in Obrovac, what was it used for?

 9        A.   Mostly, not -- mostly what hotels are normally used for.  Hosting

10     people.  This was summertime.  Nobody expected the clashes to start

11     escalating.  Obrovac has about 22 or 23 kilometres of coast line so one

12     of those catering facilities and there was another minor one that

13     continued to operate throughout the war, yes, that they were operating.

14        Q.   I'm sorry, I just noticed my question was not very specific.  I

15     wanted to know what it was used for in 1995, in the summer.  Would your

16     answer be the same?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   If we can turn now on the top to the Glinica factory.  Are you

19     familiar with that factory?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And what was that factory producing in August 1995?

22        A.   August 1995, it wasn't producing anything at all.  The factory

23     closed down in the early 1980s.  I think 1981.  It had only operated for

24     a very brief while.  For the most part it produced nothing at all.

25             The factory soon closed down.  Apart from the admin building

Page 5993

 1     nothing remained intact, even before the war, 14 or 15 years before the

 2     war, it wasn't operating at all.

 3        Q.   In August 1995, were there -- were there -- was it used for any

 4     other purposes than the factory?

 5        A.   No.  I don't see what purpose it might possibly have been used

 6     for.  It was a simple ruin about 15 years old.

 7        Q.   And we also see right below that what is the forward command post

 8     of the 4th Light Brigade, IZM, 4th Light Brigade.  Now you were the

 9     commander of the 4th Light Infantry Brigade until 1993.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.  The forward command post of the brigade command was not

11     there.  It wasn't the Glinica factory or in its admin building back in

12     1995.  The front line was just one and a half kilometres from the Glinica

13     factory.  A brigade commander putting his command post within snipers'

14     range would not be a very clever commander.  My office used to be there

15     up until 1995, my office not my command post, up until 1995, up until

16     Operation Maslenica.  The 22nd or the 23rd, the command post was moved

17     first to the village of Bilisane which was the closest, one part of the

18     command post.  The other part of command post was moved to the front line

19     in Jasenice.  In one of the admin buildings of the local mine there was a

20     part of a battalion that was there.  You should chase this information

21     yourself if you want to be more accurate about it, but the forward

22     command post of the brigade 15 days later was moved to Velebit.

23        Q.   I want to clarify something.  You said it was there until 1995,

24     the 22nd or 23rd of January.  Now should that be 1993 that it was moved

25     after the Maslenica operation?

Page 5994

 1        A.   1993, yes, if I --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm not sure what was moved there at

 3     this point so if we could get more clarification.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  One step at a time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6        A.   If I said 1995, I misspoke.  1993.  The command post of the

 7     brigade command of the 4th Light Brigade was, conditionally speaking, at

 8     this position until the 22nd of January, 1993The 23rd of January 1993

 9     it was moved and it was never at this location again.

10             MR. HEDARALY:

11        Q.   In August 1995, where was the command post of the 4th Light

12     Brigade located?

13        A.   The command post of the 4th Light Brigade in August 1995 was at

14     Velebit.  There was a facility that was built there, the location itself

15     was Caber.  Should be able to see that on a map.  East of Lipovaca about

16     3500 metres or something like that.

17        Q.   That is a location identified in the next map that I will show

18     you.  We'll get to it in just a few minutes.

19             Before you get to that I just want to follow up on the command

20     post.  You left the military in 1993.  Did you have any interactions with

21     the RSK military between 1993 and 1995?

22        A.   Obrovac is too small for everyone not to know exactly what was

23     going on.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I believe the first part of the

25     witness's answer was not translated.

Page 5995

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll ask him.

 2             The question that was put to you was whether you had any

 3     interactions with the RSK military between 1993 and 1995.  And then the

 4     second part was that -- of your answer apparently was "Obrovac is too

 5     small for everyone not to know exactly what was going on."

 6             Now, I heard the first part of your answer, something about

 7     concrete.  Could you please repeat the first part of your answer.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have any official or

 9     unofficial for that matter contacts with the army of Republika Srpska or

10     with the command of the 4th Light Brigade.  After I left the unit, after

11     I was demobilised.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we can --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And when you say the army of the Republika

14     Srpska, are you referring to the Republika Srpska or to the Republika

15     Srpska Krajina?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Srpska Krajina.

17             MR. HEDARALY:

18        Q.   One last location on the map in front of you at the bottom there

19     is a reference to air defense position, Pzo Polozaji, which I'm probably

20     mispronouncing, were you aware of any such positions in this area?

21        A.   No.  I know for certain that up until 1993 the brigade of which I

22     was commander did not have any anti-aircraft weapons or equipment.  I

23     often walked to Krusevo and I had to pass this place on my way, but I did

24     not notice any positions, nor did I know anything to indicate that

25     between 1993 and 1995 there were any anti-aircraft that were given to

Page 5996

 1     this brigade.  Again, Obrovac had 20.000 [as interpreted] inhabitants.

 2     It was a very small town.  I don't think something of that magnitude

 3     could have passed unnoticed in my case or anyone else's.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we have 65 ter 5310 on the screen.

 5        Q.   And in the, meantime, let me ask you a question I forgot to ask

 6     you earlier.

 7             When we made the correction to your statement that you had asked

 8     to be released from military duties in 1993, can you tell the Court why

 9     you made that request?

10        A.   It's a personal feeling, something that I feel myself.  This

11     doesn't make any sense to me now.  It didn't even then.  It simply wasn't

12     consistent with my own views on how these things should be dealt.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not physically hear the

14     last part of the witness's answer.  Could the witness please be asked to

15     repeat clearly.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the last part of your

17     answer, which was not --

18             MR. HEDARALY:  And also please maybe clarify what is meant by

19     "this."

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps repeat the whole of your answer so

21     that we know exactly -- you said it was a personal feeling, where

22     Mr. Hedaraly would like to know what "it" refers to.  That something you

23     said that I feel myself, this doesn't make any sense to you now and that

24     it didn't even then.  It simple wasn't consistent with your views on how

25     these things could be dealt.

Page 5997

 1             Could you elaborate and repeat also what you further said in your

 2     answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very briefly, I'm deeply convinced

 4     that the politicians wanted to resolve this, it would have been feasible.

 5     I'm not a politician, I'm an engineer myself, but I'm sure the war could

 6     have been avoided.  It didn't make sense to me.  I didn't think there was

 7     a point to all that fighting, and this continues to apply today for me.

 8     I don't know what the meaning was of all that fighting.  I don't know who

 9     is to gain anything.  That is just my view.  I was involved simply

10     because I had no alternative but at one point I simply took the decision

11     to leave, regardless of the consequences, I no longer wanted any part in

12     that because I was very suspicious about what the possible outcome might

13     be.  And that's about it.

14             MR. HEDARALY:

15        Q.   In the summer of 1995, in the weeks preceding Operation Storm,

16     were you ever asked to -- to rejoin the military?

17        A.   There were some contacts off the record, but I refused.

18        Q.   We have a map on the screen, which is a map that you marked

19     outside of court.  But before we show the markings, this is an quite a

20     few of them, I want to orient the Court.  Can I have the cursor on the

21     town of Obrovac.

22             So where the cursor is, that's the town of Obrovac, right?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And if you go down south at the bottom of the map, a little bit

25     to the left, that's the town of Benkovac.  Is that correct?

Page 5998

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And if we go back up to Obrovac and follow the road going east

 3     and then north, that yellow road, what does that lead to?  What town?

 4        A.   Racac and on to Zagreb.

 5        Q.   Can you just tell the Court generally speak where Knin is located

 6     with respect to this map.  It's off the map, but in what direction.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  If we could please have the usher assist the

 8     witness.

 9        A.   Obrovac, and then you follow this route.  The road here in the

10     middle and then Knin lies to the east.  There should be a marking there.

11             MR. HEDARALY:

12        Q.   So --

13        A.   When you take the road to Benkovac, there is an junction and then

14     there is a road that forks off to the right and that is the road that

15     will eventually take to you Knin.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't need these saved, Your Honour.

19             If we can move to 65 ter 5309, which is the version of this map

20     that witness has signed -- has marked and those are hard copies provided

21     as well and I have one for the witness as well.

22             Madam Usher, please.

23             And once again, Your Honour, the only difference between the hard

24     copies and the version is e-court is the number in the top right in red.

25             Maybe I can start before it comes up on the screen since everyone

Page 5999

 1     has hard copies.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we all have hard copies.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:

 4        Q.   Can you please tell the Court first of all what the dotted line

 5     represents that is on the top of the map going down?

 6        A.   The dotted line up there represents the front line.

 7        Q.   The front line between ...

 8        A.   The army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the Croatian

 9     army.

10        Q.   So --

11        A.   The 4th of August, yes.

12        Q.   And is that where the Croatian -- sorry.  Is that where the RSK

13     troops were located, along that front line?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Just to the right of the front line this is an little triangle

16     with a vertical line on top of it.  Can you please identify what that is?

17        A.   This was the forward command post of the command of the 4th Light

18     Brigade.

19        Q.   Finally, in your statement at paragraph 4, you state that the

20     shelling extended to smaller villages around Obrovac.  My first question

21     is before going to those locations what is the basis of your knowledge

22     regarding these areas being shelled?

23        A.   The question is logical because Obrovac is in a canyon.  It's

24     very difficult to actually see Obrovac from outside this canyon.

25     Nevertheless two or three times I went to Zegar to see my family, because

Page 6000

 1     it was obvious that this operation had a radical objective, on the one

 2     hand and on the other, the first time I went was about 11.00 and the next

 3     time was about 4.00 p.m., and yet I did climb up to the fortress several

 4     times just for myself, just so I would know what to do about leaving

 5     Obrovac and perhaps moving my family somewhere safe.

 6        Q.   We only have a short time remaining before the break, so the

 7     areas that you mentioned in your statement that were being shelled, those

 8     are the ones that you circled on this map?

 9              If we could have the full view again, please.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And if I could just run through the remembers for you.  If you

12     can confirm for me.  K was for Krusevo?

13        A.   Yes.  It's the Obrovac-Knin-Benkovac junction.

14        Q.   And then the letters ZE are for Zelengrad?

15        A.   Yes, Zelengrad, or rather, yes, Zelengrad.  But this road

16     separating Krusevo from Zelengrad this is the boundary between the two

17     villages, so this village could be about Krusevo, it could be about

18     Zelengrad, but when you take this road you pass these and you see it.

19     But one thing I want to say is I don't know if the villages were shelled

20     that you can't see from the road.  I don't know that.  The only places I

21     marked were the places that I could actually see.  There is nothing here

22     that I didn't see myself.  I witnessed all of this myself so that's that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  If we could just get foundation of why he was on

25     that road.

Page 6001

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could have done in cross as well but --

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  He just said he saw it personally.  I don't have

 3     time.  The break is almost there.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you can deal with the matter on cross.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. HEDARALY:

 7        Q.   The letters Bi is for Bilisane.  Is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And the letters Bo for Bogatnik?


11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the Z with the diacritic zhu [phoen], that is for Zegar?

13        A.   Zegar, yes.

14        Q.   And if we go up Za is for Zaton, up and to the left?  Thank you.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And M is for Muskovci?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And I think you just stated, just to confirm, these are all areas

19     that you yourself saw personally shells falling, right, these circles?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   My final question for you is to your knowledge, were there any

22     military facilities in any of the areas that were shelled that you have

23     circled on this map?

24        A.   No.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour --

Page 6002

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one thing, perhaps.  There is

 2     one exception, Kastel Zegarski where there was a factory, the Trikotasa

 3     [phoen] factory, about 200.000 square metre, there was a kitchen that was

 4     used to prepare food for members of the 4th Light Brigade, so that was

 5     the only exception.  That was that.

 6             All the rest was nothing in that sense.  But the other question

 7     is there was no other route I could have taken to see my family.  I had

 8     two sisters.  One was in Bilisane, which is -- 150 metres.  I know

 9     probably you will be asking why she went to Muskovci.  And then I had

10     sister who is probably [indiscernible].

11             It is an answer to your question, that's what I mean, thank you.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  No problem.  Can I please have this exhibit marked

13     and admitted into evidence, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objection.

15             MR. MISETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P551.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P551 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. HEDARALY:

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dupud.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  That concludes my direct examination, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  We are close to a break.  I would have

23     one additional question for you, Mr. Dupud.  You told us how civilians

24     were leaving.  You said some took their own transportation, other took

25     buses.  It was earlier in the morning.  Were these regular buses, were

Page 6003

 1     these buses specifically ordered for this transportation?

 2             Could you tell us about these buses?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regular buses.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us, was there -- how many buses

 5     were there?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a company, I think they

 7     had about 20 buses.  They were professional haulers.  I don't know how

 8     many they were using at that time, but, yes, these buses were being used.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But, now, in Obrovac, how many buses did you see?  I

10     think that you said you observed yourself, your family, your wife, and I

11     think said one of your children leaving.  How many buses did you see at

12     that time?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember specifically, and

14     I don't wish to speculate.  I can't say right now how many buses there

15     were.  They would normally appear at about 7.00 in the morning.  The

16     first buses left Obrovac at 10.00 in the morning.  One went to Zelengrad,

17     one to Bilisane.  In principle there should have been a minimum of three.

18     That's what the regular lines were.  There was no one in Krusevo.

19     Therefore, there was nothing there, so as a matter of principle, a

20     minimum of three.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  They were heading for where, these buses?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These villages around Obrovac,

23     regular lines to Bilisani, Zelengrad, Zegar, Muskovci, there was a bus

24     going to each of these villages.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that was not the destination your wife was

Page 6004

 1     choosing, was she?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  My wife didn't take that bus.

 3     I stayed in Obrovac and she drove with a relative to Zegar, or, rather,

 4     drove with a friend to her relative's place in Zegar.  She did not take a

 5     bus.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  So the buses were the normal line buses as you would

 7     see them everyday.  Is that well understood?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.  Then one final question.

10             The population, is that 2.000 or 20.000, of Obrovac.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two, two, about 2.000, 2.500.

12     During the war, even less, because most people moved to some of the

13     surrounding villages 2.000, 2.500.  The municipality itself had about

14     12.000, maybe 12.500.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that.  It appeared as 20.000 on

16     the transcript.

17             We will have a break and we'll then resume at 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dupud, you will now be cross-examined by

21     Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

22             You may proceed, Mr. Misetic.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                            Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

25        Q.   Good morning again, Mr. Dupud.  Let me clarify again something

Page 6005

 1     that was briefly discussed during your direct examination.

 2             Between January 1993 and August of 1995, you had no military

 3     role.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   Between January 1993 -- could you please repeat it?

 5        Q.   From the time of your demobilisation after the Maslenica

 6     operation until the beginning of Operation Storm, you had no military

 7     function.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   No, you didn't have a military function?

10        A.   No, I didn't.  From September 1993 up until the end of the war, I

11     had no role.

12        Q.   From September 1993 until the end of the war, did you have any

13     political function?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And, finally, from September 1993 to the end of the war, did you

16     have any other governmental function?

17        A.   I was the general manager of a factory, and for a while, I was a

18     representative in the municipal assembly of the Obrovac municipality, if

19     you can call that a government role.  I think this was in 1995.

20        Q.   Can you tell us the dates that you were a member of the municipal

21     assembly of Obrovac?

22        A.   No, I can't, because I don't know exactly, because this was not a

23     political function of any kind.  I was just a representative of a group

24     of citizens, and I was not a member of any political party, so it wasn't

25     really all that important.  I think this was at the end of 1994 or the

Page 6006

 1     beginning of 1995.

 2        Q.   Do you recall whether you were a member of the municipal assembly

 3     in June of 1995?

 4        A.   In May 1995?

 5        Q.   June.

 6        A.   Yes, I was.  Up until the end of the war.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in your witness statement at paragraph 4, you

 8     mention a man by the name of Dragomir Vukcevic who was the last to leave

 9     Obrovac at about 5.00 a.m. on the morning of the 5th.

10             Can you explain to the Court who Dragomir Vukcevic was or is?

11        A.   Dragomir Vukcevic was the president of the municipal assembly of

12     Obrovac.

13        Q.   Was he something to the effect of the mayor of Obrovac?

14        A.   Yes, that's right, he was the mayor of Obrovac.

15        Q.   And do you recall the name Radivoje Paravinja, and if you do, can

16     you please explain to the Court who Radivoje Paravinja was in August

17     1995?

18        A.   Radivoje Paravinja was the major of the army of the Republic of

19     Serbian Krajina and he was the commander of the 4th Light Brigade.  That

20     was his position.

21        Q.   Would you agree with me that with respect to events in

22     August 1995 concerning the activities of the civilian government of

23     Obrovac that the mayor, Mr. Vukcevic was in a better position to know

24     what the civilian authorities in Obrovac were doing, than you were in

25     August of 1995?

Page 6007

 1        A.   Absolutely.

 2        Q.   With respect to the activities of the 4th Light Brigade, Obrovac,

 3     in August of 1995, would you agree with me that Radivoje Paravinja is in

 4     a better position to know what the 4th Light Brigade, Obrovac, was doing

 5     in August 1995 than you were?

 6        A.   Certainly.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I'd like to turn, first, to

 8     1D37-0001.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dupud, this is the statement that was given to the Office of

10     the Prosecutor by the mayor of Obrovac on 21 February 2007.

11             The first thing I'd like to ask you about this statement is that

12     the date of the statement given to the Office of the Prosecutor is

13     identical to the date of the statement that you gave to the Office of the

14     Prosecutor.

15             So my first question to you is:  Were you together with

16     Mr. Vukcevic meeting with the Office of the Prosecutor on the 21st of

17     February, 2007?

18        A.   No, I was not with Vukcevic at that time.

19        Q.   You say at that time.  Were you with Vukcevic at some other time

20     in 2007?

21        A.   I suppose yes.  I saw him quite frequently because he is in

22     Belgrade, and I am in Belgrade, so from time to time we meet.

23        Q.   Did you have conversations with Mr. Vukcevic about the fact that

24     both of you were going to be giving statements to the Office of the

25     Prosecutor?

Page 6008

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you and Mr. Vukcevic discuss the events on the 4th of August,

 3     1995 -- the events of the 4th of August, 1995, at any time in 2006, 2007,

 4     or 2008?

 5        A.   Not only with him, I did not discuss them with anyone.  I just

 6     want to erase them from my memory, all those events.  And other than my

 7     family, I don't discuss these events with anyone.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.  If we could turn --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  There is some ambiguity in the answer.  The question

10     was whether the witness discussed the events on the 4th of August, and

11     then the answer was, "Not only with him, I did not discuss them with

12     anyone."

13             So --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the exception of the

15     investigators of The Hague Tribunal.  But that is implied, right?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So the answer is that you did not discuss it.

17     Not only not with him, that would be the answer the witness apparently

18     wants to give.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honours, just one brief point.  Before we

21     turn to the statement of someone else I think -- just want to make sure

22     that we have established a procedure that -- to make sure that the

23     question is first asked of the witness or is in the statement or

24     testimony already before confronting him with an alleged inconsistency.

25     I just want to make sure that -- I thought that's what we had agreed on.

Page 6009

 1     I don't know whether the question is obvious but just to make that clear.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I'm not sure what Mr. Hedaraly is referring to, but

 3     I believe the entire statement of the mayor is inconsistent with the

 4     version that we heard this morning and that is precisely why I wish to

 5     confront him.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Nevertheless, Mr. Hedaraly is suggesting a

 7     certain procedure in confronting the witness after a question has been

 8     put to him on matters.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  At the very at least what we can do is we can

10     start with a portion of his testimony or his statement that Mr. Misetic

11     changing and then if he wants to go to someone else's statement, that's

12     fine --

13             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I --

14             MR. HEDARALY:  -- but otherwise, I think that's what I think

15     we've -- I mean, I believe I was once here and that's what the Chamber

16     had told to us do or maybe I'm mistaken, but that was my understanding.

17             MR. MISETIC:  I believe he is -- I believe he is mistaken,

18     Your Honour.  Last time Mr. Hedaraly and I were in court we went through

19     this exact procedure with them confronting the witness with a statement

20     from his mother, and that's precisely the same thing I intend to do,

21     nothing -- nothing anything different.  If there's specifically --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see, Mr. Hedaraly, if you have any problems,

23     then we will hear from you.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

Page 6010

 1             If we could turn to the next page, please.

 2        Q.   First, Mr. Dupud, you are aware, are you not, that the

 3     authorities of Obrovac, on many occasions prior to Operation Storm would

 4     evacuate the civilian population.  Isn't that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And these were organised evacuations.  Isn't that correct?

 7        A.   Well, it depends on your viewpoint, how you understand

 8     evacuation, but I state here, please allow me to finish, that the -- 50

 9     per cent of the evacuations from Obrovac were done on a private basis.

10     People just left --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  90 per cent, interpreter's correction.

12        A.   -- so the Obrovac inhabitants who had houses in the villages or

13     relatives there, they left on their own.

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   When I say organised evacuation, I mean, first, the authorities

16     would tell people to leave.  Is that correct?

17        A.   I don't know of that fact.

18        Q.   Let's look at the statement.

19             Paragraph 2, Mr. Vukcevic told the Office of the Prosecutor:  "I

20     was elected mayor of Obrovac in January 1994."

21             At paragraph 4, he says:  "There was a conflict between the

22     Croatian army and the army of the Krajina during this time and the

23     warning sirens would sound and we would have to evacuate the women,

24     children, and the elderly temporarily to the hills to be out of range of

25     the shelling.  We would evacuate them to Bogatnik, Zegar, or Krupa.  This

Page 6011

 1     type of evacuation happened several times up until August 1995."

 2             My question to you, sir, is:  You are aware that the authorities

 3     would evacuate civilians to the villages of Bogatnik, Zegar and Krupa on

 4     various occasions, isn't that correct, before Operation Storm?

 5        A.   I reiterate, the evacuation of inhabitants was done.  People left

 6     Obrovac on several occasions in the course of 1993, 1994, and 1995.

 7     However, I have to stress one point here.  This statement is not correct,

 8     simply for the reason that after 1993, I think it was in May, a shell

 9     which was randomly fired from someplace, fell into the Zrmanja River some

10     15 metres from the high school playground which was at that time full of

11     children.  There were about 200 children there.  After this, not a single

12     parent would allow their children to go to school, because there would

13     have been a tragedy had this shell hit the playground.  And the statement

14     here that the evacuation was planned and done on orders from the

15     municipal authorities, I simply claim it is not true and probably the

16     mayor wanted to -- felt that he was more important than he was and he

17     wanted to project that image here.  That's all I'm claiming.

18        Q.   Let me repeat the question that I asked you.  You are aware that

19     the civilian authorities prior to Operation Storm had conducted

20     evacuations to the villages of Bogatnik, Zegar, and Krupa.  Isn't that

21     correct?

22        A.   I know that people left Obrovac, seeking shelter in 1993, 1994,

23     and 1995, and I'm almost certain that there was not an organised

24     evacuation and that the authorities did not play a big role in this.  I

25     don't know why anyone should be evacuated if they had a home in Bogatic

Page 6012

 1     [as interpreted].  They would just leave Obrovac on their own and go to

 2     Bogatic or Zegar -- Bogatnik or Zegar with the exception of a few people

 3     who went to the Krupa monastery.  These were old-time inhabitants of

 4     Obrovac and I can assume that maybe this was organised by the municipal

 5     authorities.  I am referring here to the people from Obrovac and Croats,

 6     and other people from Obrovac who were from Obrovac originally.  So it is

 7     possible that this was organised to accommodate these people on the

 8     premises of the Krupa monastery.

 9        Q.   Let's move on to paragraph 5 of the statement, talking about the

10     evacuation on the morning of the 4th of August.  The mayor says:  "At

11     about 5.00 a.m. on the 4th of August, 1995, I heard the sound of shelling

12     in the town.  I heard the warning siren which warned us that the town was

13     going to be shelled again.  Shells fell within 200 metres of my house.

14     The women, children, and the elderly were evacuated to Krupa.  People who

15     cars," it should say, "people with cars travelled to Krupa themselves and

16     those who had no transport gathered at the bus station and were bussed to

17     Krupa."

18             Isn't that what happened on the morning of the 4th of August,

19     1995, Mr. Dupud?

20        A.   I can't see a major difference between what Mr. Vukcevic said and

21     what I have said.  He does not claim here that anything was organised.  I

22     said, if you remember, and I think you do, that some people, in other

23     words those who did not have their own vehicles, travelled on the buses,

24     the regular line buses.

25             Because, at that time, there was no other possibility to use any

Page 6013

 1     other meanings of transportation, so it wasn't even necessary to organise

 2     anything if there were buses there any way.  And I think that the mayor

 3     here also mentioned Krupa.  So it is only those people who had nowhere to

 4     go.  They were the one who is were accommodated in Krupa.

 5        Q.   Well, let me tell you what I think the difference is and see if

 6     you agree with me.

 7             Paragraph 5, there's a portion of the sentence further on down

 8     that he says:  "Although we had been through this evacuation process

 9     before ..."

10             And then if you go down to paragraph 8.

11             MR. MISETIC:  And we can put that on the screen for you.

12        Q.   He says:  "At about 11.30 a.m., on the 4th of August, 1995, the

13     mayor of Benkovac, Stevo Vuksa, telephoned me and asked why we had

14     evacuated the people from the town.  He was angry, saying that by

15     evacuating the civilians it would weaken the front line.  But that I

16     understood he meant that if the civilians left, then the soldiers would

17     follow their families.  I explained that we always did this when the

18     siren sounded and when we were being shelled and that we would be

19     bringing the people back later when the situation calmed down."

20             So do you agree with me that the mayor of the town seems to have

21     told the Office of the Prosecutor that this was an organised evacuation

22     of the civilians out of the town?

23        A.   I cannot give you any answer to this.  I can't say either that he

24     stated that it was organised or not organised.  I don't know how to

25     interpret his statement.  I wasn't there when he spoke with Vuksa which

Page 6014

 1     was a long time ago, but I do have something that I would like to clarify

 2     regarding the organised evacuation of citizens.

 3             On the 24th of January, 1993, I was the brigade commander.  I

 4     received information at the command post.

 5        Q.   If we're going to go back to 1993, I'd that if they want to do it

 6     in redirect, but I'm trying to keep --

 7             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You're putting the questions, if you think that the

 9     witness is no longer in the area where your question relates to, you --

10             MR. MISETIC:  I can cut him off.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, within--

12             MR. MISETIC:  I'm used to usually asking the Judge to do that but

13     if you wish me to do it, that's fine.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, let's say, if I allow the parties to do it if

15     they use this --

16             MR. MISETIC:  Judiciously.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If they do it -- and if they do it in such a

18     way that -- well, let's say to similar to what I would have done, of

19     course I do not expect any witness do dwell on matters which are not part

20     of the question.

21             Yes, Mr. Hedaraly.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  I completely agree with that but, I mean, the

23     question asks typically about the organised evacuation of the civilians

24     out of the town and he refers to the statement of the mayor of Obrovac

25     who says it happened this way before.  Now the witness wants to clarify

Page 6015

 1     what has happened before.  It is within the ambit of his question.  If he

 2     doesn't want to hear the answer, he shouldn't ask the question.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, Mr. Hedaraly is more than welcome to

 4     ask in redirect if he thinks there is some connection to this question.

 5     My question was clearly related to the 4th of August and whether there

 6     was evacuation on that day.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, your question was related to the statement and

 8     the statement contains, "I explained that we always did this when the

 9     siren sounded," which means that if you take him to that statement, then

10     of course you can't say that it is just limited to the 4th of August.

11             MR. MISETIC:  I understand and this is why it is difficult for me

12     to cut a witness off.  So, if we could get guidance from the

13     Trial Chamber when they start to go off, to bring them back to focus on

14     the question.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So here I agree with Mr. Hedaraly, that it is

16     not exclusively the 4th of August, but of course if you wanted to take

17     him back.

18             But let's now, Witness, you started saying something about what

19     happened in an earlier year, that's the 24th of January, 1993.  Did you

20     want to refer to any evacuation event that happened in 1994?  Is that

21     what you were -- then briefly explain.  We'll focus on the 4th, but if

22     there is any relevance to what happened earlier, then please tell us

23     briefly.

24             Yes.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to clarify and show

Page 6016

 1     what the connection between an organised departure and not organised.

 2             So I'm talking about the 24th of January, 1993.  This was when

 3     the first evacuation took place.  It was so organised, let me just point

 4     this out, that I tried to prevent it.  So had it been organised I'm sure

 5     I would have had a say in it.  But the population, the people just left,

 6     90 per cent of them had their cars.  You couldn't prevent them from

 7     leaving.  So this was similar.

 8             I just wanted to point out this fact that all these departures,

 9     all these occasions when people left Obrovac and went to the villages

10     around Obrovac, were really something that people themselves did of their

11     own will, and in no way could we call them organised.  And I mentioned

12     the 24th, because that's the one that I knew.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Let's go to paragraph 9.

17             MR. MISETIC:  If we could have paragraph 9 on the B/C/S version,

18     please.

19        Q.    "At about 6.00 p.m. the same day a friend of mine, Nebojsa Mijic

20     came to me and told me that he had received information that the

21     civilians were being evacuated from Benkovac.  I was angry after my

22     earlier conversation with the mayor of Benkovac, and so I rang him and

23     asked what was going on.  He said that they were evacuating the civilians

24     toward Srb.  I asked why he was do that, and he refused to say but told

25     me to tell our civilian protection to contact Babic in Knin who was head

Page 6017

 1     of the civil protection in Knin."

 2             And at paragraph 10:  "I told our civilian protection to ring the

 3     civil protection in Knin.  But there was no reply.  They then tried the

 4     local civil police but again could get no information.  At about 10.00

 5     p.m. on the 4th August I had contact with the local ARSK brigade

 6     commander, Rajko Paravinja and he came to see me at the civil protection

 7     office and told me that a wider conflict was expected and that the

 8     civilians should be evacuated to Srb which was to be the planned

 9     collection place for the civilians.  As a result, we began to organise

10     the evacuation.  Our civil protection staff split up and went to all the

11     surrounding villages to organise the evacuation."

12             Then at paragraph 11:  "At about 11.00 p.m. I got to Krupa with

13     another member of the civil protection and told the civilians there to

14     organise themselves and get ready to be evacuated.  I returned to Obrovac

15     at about 4.00 a.m. on the 5th of August to collect some documentation

16     from my house.  The town was deserted but relatively undamaged."

17             Now, Mr. Dupud, the civilians left the Obrovac municipality

18     towards Srb under an organised evacuation.  Isn't that correct?

19        A.   No.  I remember this vividly and I will try to explain it.

20             I don't know how Nebojsa Mijic could have said at 6.00 to the

21     mayor and how he could be angry because of his conversation with the

22     mayor of the Benkovac municipality, which was -- which took place later

23     on.  I don't understand this.

24             You said that Savo Vuksa called the president of the municipal

25     assembly or the mayor of Obrovac at 11.00.

Page 6018

 1        Q.   6.00 p.m., which is 1800 hours.

 2        A.   At 11.00.  We can check this.  And he called him at 6.00.

 3        Q.   You may a translation issue there, sir.  It says -- that the

 4     mayor he called the mayor of Benkovac at 6.00 p.m. which military time is

 5     1800?

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry.  I just have to clear --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  We have in paragraph 8 --

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We have the time of 11.30, and then in paragraph 9,

10     we have -- no -- yes, paragraph 9 we have 6.00 p.m.

11             So when we're talking about times of telephone conversations,

12     let's clearly distinguish between what happened at -- according to this

13     statement, at least that at 11.30 on the 4th of August, the mayor of

14     Benkovac called the mayor of Obrovac, and then at 9.00 -- then at 6.00

15     p.m. that same day, that is therefore early evening, the -- a friend

16     called the mayor of Obrovac and explained.  That's what the statement

17     says so let's not --

18             MR. MISETIC:  But I don't think he understands that.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, depends.  Let's put the questions to him and

20     always specify clearly which telephone conversation you are referring to.

21             MR. MISETIC:

22        Q.   Let me clarify this with you, sir.

23             What the mayor here, and see if you agree with me, the mayor is

24     saying, the mayor of Obrovac is saying that the mayor of Benkovac called

25     him at 11.30 in the morning to complain about the fact that the mayor of

Page 6019

 1     Obrovac earlier that morning had evacuated the civilian population.  And

 2     then he says the mayor of Obrovac later learned at 6.00 p.m. that the

 3     mayor of Benkovac was now doing the same thing that the mayor of Obrovac

 4     will done in the morning and for which --

 5        A.   [No interpretation].

 6        Q.   Yes, do you understand now?  Do you understand now?

 7        A.   Yes, yes, I do now.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we can proceed.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

11        Q.   You are -- are you aware that the civil protection of the Obrovac

12     municipality went out into the villages on the evening of the 4th to tell

13     civilians who were in the villages that they had to prepare to leave?

14        A.   In the evening, yes.  That's what I said in my statement, isn't

15     it?  The first group of civilians leaving.  So that was the amendments

16     that we entered, 8.00 p.m., 2000 hours the first group left and this

17     wasn't an organised thing.  The first group left in no organised

18     evacuation, those who left who had somewhere to go, who had families or

19     homes perhaps in Serbia, that was the first group, but by 8.00 there had

20     been no organised evacuation nor had any calls been made by the civilian

21     authorities to leave Obrovac or the other villages for that matter.

22        Q.   Putting aside the issue of what happened on the morning of the

23     4th, you now agree with me that the decision to move civilians from the

24     Obrovac municipality to Srb was a decision to make an organised

25     evacuation, in the evening of the 4th.  Correct?

Page 6020

 1        A.   I can't agree, nor can I disagree.  I'm simply not aware of that

 2     decision.  I can't say whether it is true or false.

 3        Q.   Well, what --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Where is the decision in the -- I see all kind of

 5     activities described, but I do not see any decision here.

 6             Could you assist me.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Well, I mean he told -- Radivoje Paravinja came to

 8     see me at the civil protection office and told me that a wider conflict

 9     was expected and that the civilians should be evacuated to Srb, which was

10     to be the planned collection centre for the civilians.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you call that a decision.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

14        Q.   What time did you leave Obrovac?

15        A.   Earlier on I had left Obrovac twice that day at a quarter to

16     midnight.

17        Q.   Okay.  In your statement at paragraph 4, you say:  "The members

18     of the civil protection and the president of the municipality, I think is

19     Dragomir Vukcevic, were the last to leave at around 5.00 a.m."

20             If you left at a quarter to midnight, how do you know that the

21     civil protection and Mr. Vukcevic left at 5.00 a.m.?

22        A.   They left after me and we met up in Belgrade.  It was then that

23     they told me that they had left Obrovac, or, rather, Krupa at 5.00 a.m.

24             So this is not direct knowledge.  This is indirect knowledge.

25        Q.   And in those conversations after the fact, did they also tell you

Page 6021

 1     that the reason -- the reason that the civil protection and the mayor of

 2     the town were the last to leave was because the civil protection was

 3     responsible for organising the evacuation of the civilians?

 4        A.   I didn't go that far when I talked to them.  I simply had no

 5     stamina at the time to have any long conversations about that.  We met

 6     briefly, when did you leave, right, when did you leave and how about

 7     yourself, and that was about that.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Dupud.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  If I could call up 1D37-0012.

10             Your Honour, I will tender the at the same time.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm going to object to that, Your Honour.  I think

13     witness statements are not typically admissible unless the rules of

14     92 bis, ter or quater have been fulfilled.

15             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.  We will call a witness --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Relevant portions have been -- yes, whether there is

17     any need to that --

18             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.  We'll decide that later.

19             JUDGE ORIE: -- but suggest that it will be Defense case.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps I could meanwhile give further guidance to

24     the parties.  I think you find what I had in mind as whether or not to

25     confront the witness with the statement of another witness, that, I think

Page 6022

 1     at the time I gave the guidance that it should not be done if the matter

 2     was not dealt with yet in his own statement or in examination-in-chief so

 3     you can't just confront the witness with someone's else statement on a

 4     certain matter.  If no questions have been asked to that witness about

 5     the same event.  If, however, that is done, then there's no need to

 6     repeat that and you find that at page 4861 to 4863.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  And that was my only concern, because we didn't

 8     know what was coming up.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  But I don't think until now that is a major problem.

10             Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Just one possibly minor point of clarification, Your

12     Honour.  I noted it came up in the course of a redirect examination, and

13     that is I would assume, but I'm seeking guidance from the Court, that in

14     -- in cases where the matter has been raised in a witness's statement and

15     therefore there's no need to put a question of the type that is referred

16     to in the Court's guidance, that there would still be reference to that

17     portion of the statement that is at issue.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because otherwise, the witness would not know

19     exactly what his statement would have been on that.

20             But I don't think that we have any real problems at this moment.

21             So let's then proceed.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Dupud, what we have on the screen here is the report of

24     the commander of the 4th Light Brigade of Obrovac that he sent to his

25     superior officers on the 9th of August, 1995 reporting on what happened

Page 6023

 1     on the 4th of August, 1995.  It is a document by Mr. Paravinja, Radivoje

 2     Paravinja.

 3             The first sentence says:  "The enemy commenced the artillery

 4     attack on 4 August 1995 at 0500 hours.  At 6.20 hours four aircrafts

 5     fired rockets at Celavac and in the area of the village of Golubic."

 6             If you go down to the middle of that first paragraph.  Captain

 7     reports:  "In the evening at around 2300 hours the evacuation of the

 8     civilian population started.  Our units were well supported by the

 9     artillery of the 4th Brigade and the 7th Corps Artillery Group.

10             On 5 August 1995 we were still firmly holding our positions."

11             Now let me ask you, Mr. Dupud, you seem to have known a lot of

12     information about the 4th Light Brigade even on the 4th of August you

13     were able to draw on a map the forward command post of the 4th Light

14     Brigade in the mountains of the Velebit which I assume ordinary civilians

15     probably would not have known, in Obrovac.

16             What type of artillery support did the 4th Light Brigade of

17     Obrovac have?

18        A.   I don't think I can comment on this combat report.  I do believe,

19     however, that some of the information here is inaccurate, as far as

20     support is concerned, I can tell you that this is the 7th Artillery Corps

21     group.  Were they providing support or not is not something that I can

22     tell you.

23             As for the command post, the forward command post or relocated

24     command post, we have some information because I set it up in 1993 and it

25     never moved until 1995, and that's the only reason I know, not because I

Page 6024

 1     had anything else to do with it or because we had any other type of

 2     contact with the commander of the 4th Light Brigade.  That command post

 3     was there since the 24th or the 25th of January, 1993.

 4        Q.   Well, let's continue on here because it relates to the map and

 5     the villages that you say were shelled.

 6             He further reports:  "The Ustasha accomplished a breach through

 7     Crveni Potoci [phoen] towards Mole Zuljine in the AOR of the 15th corps.

 8     As our flank was endangered we assigned a company to our right flank and

 9     two tanks T-34 and two armoured personnel carriers and in this manner we

10     secured the brigade's right flank."

11             My question to you is, as you were travelling around in the

12     Obrovac municipality did you see the artillery support groups, did you

13     see ARSK T-34s, did you see ARSK armoured personnel carriers?

14        A.   This is the first I hear of it, about this unit having tanks.

15     First I hear of it, which implies that I certainly didn't see it.  I

16     don't know.  I don't know where something like that would have come from.

17     Actually, I can't comment.  What I mean is I really don't know.

18        Q.   It goes on:  "At 1000 hours," and this is now on the 5th, "the

19     Ustasha emerged at Stikada near Gracac so we could not use this route for

20     evacuation.  Having assured ourselves that the civilians had been

21     evacuated from Benkovac and that the major part of the army was already

22     in Ervenik, I ordered the brigade to evacuate according to the plan

23     towards Zegar and further towards Mokro Polje."

24             I will stop right there.  You say that you yourself went to

25     Zegar.  Did you see the soldiers of the 4th Light Brigade, Obrovac, in

Page 6025

 1     Zegar with you?

 2        A.   No.  I knew this statement is accurate.  All I can add is this.

 3     I left Zegar and took the Zegar-Golubic-Gracac road out.  On the morning

 4     of the 5th there were no Croatian soldiers in Gracac or in Stikada.  I

 5     was there, but I can't comment on Mr. Paravinja's statement simply

 6     because I have no information about this.  It may be true, it may not be

 7     true.  I really cannot comment apart from what I said and what I said was

 8     I left the territory and took the road through Gracac.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I want to clarify something and perhaps I'm

10     mistaken.  I think the question referred to RSK troops and he talked

11     about Croatian soldiers in the town just to make sure.

12             MR. MISETIC:  I agree, and I was going to clarify that with him

13     as well.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Hedaraly, perhaps you give an opportunity

15     first and then if the confusion persists, then to intervene.

16             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:

18        Q.   You may have heard Mr. Hedaraly's comment.  What I was asking you

19     was, did you see ARSK soldiers in Zegar on the 5th of August?

20        A.   I wasn't in Obrovac before August, not in Obrovac, I couldn't see

21     why I said after midnight I left -- or rather before midnight I left

22     Obrovac and then right after midnight I left Zegar as well.  You see what

23     I'm saying.  Therefore on the 5th of August and there's no way I can see

24     anything, and that's why I can't comment on all of this, everything you

25     are telling me, it is simply not true.  I didn't see any soldiers of the

Page 6026

 1     Republika Srpska Krajina in Zegar and Golubic, because for me, this is

 2     something entirely new.  I don't know this.  I wasn't there.  I simply

 3     wasn't physically present and I can't comment.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I think the interpreter is having a little problem

 5     with your speed.  So if you could slow down -- yes.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, the speed, right, right, okay.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             MR. MISETIC:

10        Q.   Where did you wind up on the 5th of August?  You said you left

11     Zegar shortly after midnight.  Where were you going to?

12        A.   Yes.  I took the following route, Zegar, Krupa, Golubic, Gracac,

13     Srb, Martin Brod or rather, Bosansko Petrovac and then I spent the night

14     in Banja Luka.  That was my exact route.

15        Q.   If we continue on with Mr. Paravinja's report, he says:  "The

16     unit command evacuated or destroyed the documentation and one part of the

17     ordnance.  The whole civilian population was evacuated except for a small

18     number who refused to leave, the units withdrew in an organised manner,

19     following the civilian column."

20             Did you notice, as you were following this route, did you notice

21     behind you military personnel evacuating along the same route you were

22     taking?

23        A.   [No interpretation].

24        Q.   If we could turn the page, please.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpretation to the last question was

Page 6027

 1     "no."

 2             MR. MISETIC:  If we can scroll up, please.

 3        Q.   Captain Paravinja reports in section 2.1:  Evacuated ordnance,

 4     this is what he reports on what they had.  105-millimetre Howitzers, two

 5     pieces, 76-metre gun D1, two pieces.  76-millimetre gun ZIS, three

 6     pieces.

 7             120-millimetre mortar, six pieces, 128-metre light rocket

 8     launcher, six pieces.  82-millimetre mortar, nine pieces.

 9             And then lists ordnance that remained on the way, which I believe

10     means ordnance that was left behind, T-34 tank, armoured personnel

11     carrier M-63, 40-metre anti-aircraft gun, two pieces.  If I can stop

12     right there, and then there's an anti-aircraft gun 20/3?

13             Now, sir, you were asked questions about an anti-aircraft

14     position this morning and I believe you said you didn't believe that the

15     ARSK had any anti-aircraft weapons.  Mr. Paravinja reports on the 9th of

16     August that they had at least three pieces, actually more than that,

17     because if you look at the destroyed ordnance section there is three

18     pieces, anti-aircraft gun 20/1 that were destroyed.  So at least and then

19     other ordnance, a 40-millimetre, two pieces, anti-aircraft gun 20/1, two

20     pieces.

21             Can you tell the Court, and we can show you a map, if necessary,

22     where did the 4th Light Brigade Obrovac deploy all of its anti-aircraft

23     weapons?

24        A.   I never set eyes on this before, 20/3, perhaps, but a tank, no.

25     This is the first time that I see this information suggesting that the

Page 6028

 1     4th Light Brigade had a tank or an APC.

 2             I don't have a comment.  What I can say is the 4th Light Brigade

 3     had no anti-aircraft weapons and the anti-aircraft weapons were not

 4     positioned as marked on that map.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I think you did not accurately reflect

 6     what the witness's testimony earlier was.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Going by my recollection, but --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I can tell what you he said.  He said that "for

 9     certain up until 1993 the brigade of which I was a commander did not have

10     anti-aircraft weapons or equipment."  That was the first.

11             Then he added to that, that it was Obrovac was a small town that

12     is near the 20.000, which is a mistake.  Should be 2.000.  I don't think

13     that something of that magnitude could have passed unnoticed -- no.  And

14     then he said he walked up -- yes.  "I often walked to Krusevo and had to

15     pass this place on my way, but I did not notice any positions nor did I

16     know anything to indicate that."

17             That's what he said and not that, as you put it to him, that the

18     ARSK had no anti-aircraft weapons.  That is not what he said.

19             MR. MISETIC:  I will correct that, Your Honour.  He said he had

20     no knowledge and that he walked around --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  His attention was drawn to a specific place where,

22     allegedly there would have been anti-aircraft.  He said "I walked up to

23     that place, I haven't seen it," and he said "until 1993 when I was in

24     command our unit didn't have it."

25             MR. MISETIC:  No, I read that differently, Your Honour.  It says,

Page 6029

 1     "nor did I know anything to indicate that between 1993 and 1995 there

 2     were any anti-aircraft given to this brigade," not that there were any

 3     anti-aircraft at that position.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  First of all it is limited to the brigade.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  That's what I asked him about is the 4th Light

 6     Brigade Obrovac.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just -- I thought that the question was more

 8     broad.  But matters have been clarified now.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Dupud, looking at this list of ordnance it is safe to say

12     that if in fact, Mr. Paravinja's report is accurate, you had no knowledge

13     of where this ordnance was deployed on the 4th of August, 1995.  Is that

14     correct?

15        A.   Correct.

16        Q.   If we look at section 2.5, depots, you were asked by Mr. Hedaraly

17     about these villages.  You were asked whether there were any military --

18     I don't want to be wrong and I will have Mr. Hedaraly correct me, please,

19     if I say something wrong but I believe he asked you if there were any

20     military installations or military targets, I'm not sure what the exact

21     phrase was, in those outlying villages.  You mentioned Zegar and a

22     kitchen in Zegar.

23             Now if you look at section 2.5, Captain Paravinja reports that

24     the ammunition depot Krupa was destroyed, the quartermaster depot Zegar

25     was destroyed.  Were you aware of a quartermaster depot being located in

Page 6030

 1     Zegar?

 2        A.   Certainly.  As far as I can remember, I did say that in my

 3     evidence.  In Zegar, the old school building which was no longer used as

 4     a school, the weapons and equipment were stored after the signing of the

 5     Vance-Owen Plan.  That was that.  I have no reason to try and conceal

 6     that.  And the kitchen was there too and that's as much as I know.

 7     Ammunition storage in Krupa, I don't know about that.  Ammunition storage

 8     in Velebit, I don't know.  The medical station in Zegar, that has been

 9     explained too, therefore, I don't think there is anything to challenge

10     about that.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12               MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, for the precise text of what was

14     included in your question, it is page 60, lines 18 and 19 general

15     reference is made to the ARSK.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.  Your Honour, I would now ask that this

18     exhibit be marked and I tender it into evidence.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  No objections.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D520, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D520 is admitted into evidence.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

25        Q.   One question if we could go back to the first page of this

Page 6031

 1     document.  Towards the bottom where Mr. Paravinja says:  "The withdrawal

 2     went well, although Ustasha fired on the units all the way to the village

 3     of Zegar."  Were you aware that the Croatian army was firing on the units

 4     of the 4th Light Brigade of Obrovac and was engaged in a pursuit of them?

 5        A.   It is clear based on my evidence so far, that there's no way I

 6     could have known.  I said I wasn't involved in the fighting, nor did I

 7     know anything to indicate this, were they firing, when, how, along the

 8     line of confrontation.  I don't think they were exchanging candy.  They

 9     were probably involved in fighting.

10             As for the rest of it, I really don't know.  All of this happened

11     after my departure.  I left, I told you when I left, and I don't think

12     any of these questions have any sort of purpose.  I don't know what their

13     purpose might be if I said that I left Obrovac on the morning of the 5th

14     right after midnight night and you're asking me about something that

15     occurred at 11.00 or 10.00 in the morning.  I don't see any purpose to

16     your question.

17        Q.   Well, the purpose is, sir, that in much of your statement and in

18     much of your testimony this morning you have indicated that you had

19     subsequent conversation with some of these people so you may have learned

20     some of this information later.  So that is why I ask you the question.

21             If we could move on.  At paragraph 2 of your statement you say:

22     "On 3 August 1995 the United Nations observers in Obrovac left the area.

23     We therefore suspected something would happen."

24             When you say "we," who are you talking about?

25        A.   I'm talking about me and my family.

Page 6032

 1        Q.   Okay.  If we could call up 1D37-0018, please.

 2             This is dated 28 July 1995.  It is a message from Captain

 3     Paravinja to Jordanian Battalion and Canadian battalion of UNPROFOR.  It

 4     says:  "This is to warn you that you should situation worsen you are

 5     obligated to execute the responsibilities you have assumed in accordance

 6     with the Vance plan and you are not allowed to withdraw.  Should you not

 7     execute the said responsibilities, we shall be forced to physically block

 8     you and any attempt to abandon the zone shall be prevented by force."

 9             You made mention of in you statement about the fact that the UN

10     did in fact did leave on the 3rd.  Were you aware that the authorities in

11     Obrovac, the military authority had issued a warning to the UN not to

12     withdraw?

13        A.   There is one thing that needs clarifying.  When I said

14     "observers," it was civilian police in Obrovac.  I said they left on the

15     3rd.

16             As for this warning, I have never heard of this before.  I have

17     never set eyes on it before.  I -- I don't know, I can't comment.  I

18     would never have written anything like this myself.  No, this is a

19     different kettle of fish altogether.  If the commander wrote this,

20     perhaps we should ask somebody else.  But then what I said was civilian,

21     meaning civilian police.

22        Q.   Thank you, witness.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I ask that this be marked and tendered into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 6033

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  No objections.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D521.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  D521 is admitted into

 5     evidence.

 6             Mr. Misetic, this comes down to more or less tendering from the

 7     bar table.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And apparently Mr. Hedaraly has no problem, so ...

10             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.  I just didn't know.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I just noticed that -- yes.

12             MR. MISETIC:  thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Turning to paragraph 4 of your statement, Witness, you say:  "The

14     radio communications system was disturbed and we had no contact with the

15     military or political authorities in Knin."

16             First, can you tell us what radio communications system you are

17     referring to in that statement?

18        A.   I think that in one of the statements earlier - I don't know

19     whose it was - mention was made that the repeater on Velebit was shelled

20     around 6.30.  From that moment on, there -- it was no longer possible to

21     establish any kind of communication, either phone or radio

22     communications.  I could not even listen to the radio from the moment

23     when the repeater was destroyed.  That's what I meant.  When I say "we,"

24     I mean the entire population.  I did not mean the unit, the 4th Light

25     Brigade, or the civilian authorities.  I meant just civilians, civilian

Page 6034

 1     population, which was just another element that contributed to the panic,

 2     if I may call it so.

 3        Q.   So in paragraph 4 what you're referring to there is simply an

 4     ordinary radio, that you couldn't listen to the radio from Knin?

 5        A.   We could also not make any phone calls, so there were no phone

 6     lines nor radio communications.  That's what I meant.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Turning back to the issue of evacuation and you told us at

 8     the beginning of this cross-examination that you were a member of the

 9     Obrovac municipal council?

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Assembly.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Assembly, thank you.

12             If we could turn to 1D37-0028, please, Mr. Registrar.

13             If we could turn the page, please.

14        Q.   Sir, this is from a book by Milisav Sekulic.  Have you had an

15     opportunity to read that book before?  The book is called:  "Knin fell in

16     Belgrade."

17        A.   I did not have occasion to read it.

18        Q.   Mr. Sekulic would have been your colleague, though, in the

19     military of the ARSK.  You know that?

20        A.   As far as I know, General Sekulic came after I left the brigade

21     and I had no chance to meet him.  At that time he was a colonel.

22        Q.   Okay.  Let me show you what he wrote in his book about the events

23     concerning the fall of the Republika Srpska Krajina.

24             And I will skip around so we don't take too much time to go to

25     the relevant portions but he writes:  "The Obrovac municipality is a

Page 6035

 1     typical example.  The official authorities initiated an action for the

 2     collective emigration of the people.  The responsible body in this action

 3     was the municipal assembly."

 4             And if we go down:  "It was more than obvious that the events in

 5     Western Slavonia had a depressing effect on the population and

 6     authorities in Obrovac.  Fear became dominant.  However, it was

 7     indisputable that the streets of Obrovac were always full of officers and

 8     conscripts.  More of them were in the streets than on their positions.

 9     If this behaviour was intended to seek guarantee that the citizens would

10     be preserved from the Ustasha aggression, then who would stop the Croats

11     when they launched the attack?"

12             Finally, if we can turn the page, please.  Page 3 of the B/C/S,

13     please.

14             The final portion above the three dots -- sorry, above the page

15     188 reference.  It says:  "From the contents of the overview of the

16     situation it is easy to see why the morale of the people and the army was

17     so low and where the announcements of what was to happen on the 4th and

18     5th of August, 1995, originated from.  This form of conduct by the

19     authorities of the Obrovac municipality at the beginning of June 1995

20     represented the preparation and general evacuation exercise of the people

21     and the army, which was to unfold less than two months later.

22     Preconditions were created, allowing for the people to leave their homes

23     easily at the blink of an eye.  It is obvious that this form of

24     preparations and general exercises were more efficient and lethal than

25     all the Croatian lethal assets."

Page 6036

 1             Now, sir, General Sekulic writes in his book that the

 2     municipality authorities of Obrovac as early as June 1995 were preparing

 3     for the general evacuation of the civilians.  You told us earlier that

 4     you were a member of the assembly in Obrovac.  Were you a participant in

 5     some of the actions -- or some of the meetings that General Sekulic

 6     describes in his book between the municipal authorities of Obrovac and

 7     the authorities in Knin?

 8        A.   I reserve the right not to say what I think about

 9     General Sekulic, but this speaks for itself.  Simply, it is not true that

10     the municipal assembly ever discussed or took any decision on an

11     organised evacuation or on organizing the evacuation of Obrovac.  He

12     probably has reasons of his own for that, and I wouldn't want to comment

13     on them.

14        Q.   Let me show you 1D37-0020.

15             Do you know who Milan Milic is, while we wait for it come up?

16     Who he was in Obrovac in 1995?

17        A.   I don't know which Milan Milic you mean.  There were several of

18     them.

19        Q.   Well, we will see from this document now.  I mean the head of

20     municipal civil protection in Obrovac.

21        A.   Now I know whom you mean.

22        Q.   This document is dated 6 June 1995.  It is sent to Knin.  The

23     subject is:  "Assistance request for the location of clamp yokes for a 06

24     cable."  It says:  "Considering we have commenced building rafts on the

25     Zrmanja River in order to evacuate the population in the event of Ustasha

Page 6037

 1     aggression," and then it goes on seeking certain equipment so that they

 2     can build rafts to cross Zrmanja River if it becomes necessary.

 3             Were you aware of these types of preparations in Obrovac in

 4     June of 1995?

 5        A.   Obviously someone was playing war games here.  This is the first

 6     time that I see here and this is the first -- see this and this is the

 7     first time that I hear of it.  And I don't see where one could use a

 8     raft.  I simply don't see why a raft would be built in Obrovac.  I can't

 9     really comment on this.  This is the first time I hear of this.

10             This man was not from Obrovac municipality and I know for sure

11     that I did not see him in Obrovac on the 4th.  After the 4th of July, I

12     don't know where he was, what his whereabouts were, and as for the raft

13     here, I don't see any purpose.  I don't see why one would want a raft.

14     That's in short.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I would now tender both 1D37-0028,

17     which is the excerpt from the Sekulic book; and I tender 1D37-0020, which

18     is the document on the screen.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 1D37-0028 becomes Exhibit number

23     D522.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D522 is admitted into evidence.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  And 1D37-0020 becomes Exhibit number D523.

Page 6038

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D523 is admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. MISETIC:

 3        Q.   I would now like to show you a video, sir, from the 6th of

 4     August, which is a footage -- which is 1D37-0025.  It is video footage of

 5     Obrovac after the Croatian forces had taken the town.

 6                           [Videotape played]

 7             MR. MISETIC:

 8        Q.   Sir, let me ask --

 9             Sir, you've had a chance to look at that clip.  The mayor in his

10     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor at paragraph 11 told the Office

11     of the Prosecutor that when he came back at 4.00 a.m. on the 5th of

12     August to collect some documentation from his house, "the town was

13     deserted but relatively undamaged."

14             Based on everything you saw on the 4th of August, is it also your

15     conclusion that the town was relatively undamaged and -- and -- based on

16     what you've seen in this video?

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  I mean he is referring to the statement of

19     Mr. Vukcevic that can be put to the witness so he can answer the

20     question.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it's -- it's a limited portion, of course, and

22     I think that the question can be put to the witness as Mr. Misetic did.

23             MR. MISETIC:

24        Q.   Did you understand the question?

25        A.   No, I didn't.  Please repeat it.

Page 6039

 1        Q.   The town of Obrovac was relatively undamaged by any shelling that

 2     occurred on the 4th of August, 1995.  Isn't that correct?

 3        A.   I never said that it was really damaged.  I said that shells fell

 4     on several -- in several places and that this was the reason why people

 5     left.

 6             As for this video-clip, they showed specifically the places where

 7     nothing fell, no shell fell.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic, if we start asking witnesses to

 9     form their opinion on the basis of what they've seen and then you take a

10     few shots and of course journalists have a habit of showing those shots

11     that they like most, then the reference to, on the basis what you've just

12     seen, is not, I think, what we should pursue.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. MISETIC:

15        Q.   Continuing further with that video, sir, first of all, do you

16     know the Mr. Markovic who appeared on that video?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   And you heard Mr. Markovic say that the people left at 6.00 a.m.

19     on the 4th, on buses.  Does that refresh your recollection as to when the

20     majority of the population left Obrovac?

21        A.   At 6.00, it was simply impossible for them to leave, so I still

22     remain -- I maintain my earlier statement.

23        Q.   There also appeared to be a boat in that video with the word

24     milicija.  Who or what organ of the RSK, if any, owned that boat?

25        A.   I think it was -- or, rather, it was the police in Obrovac, the

Page 6040

 1     milicija in Obrovac.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I would tender that video into

 3     evidence, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, I see from your body language that

 5     there are no objections.

 6             Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number D524, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D524 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, may we move into private session for

10     one minute, please.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We move into private session.  At the same time,

12     Mr. Misetic, we are close to the point, in a couple of minutes, where we

13     would have a break.

14             MR. MISETIC:  It will be very brief.  I just need --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we will hear this portion of the evidence and

16     then have a break.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're in private session.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6041











11  Pages 6041-6042 redacted. Private session.















Page 6043

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You would like to give instruction to the witness?

 4             MR. MISETIC:  No.  Just to make sure that the exhibit is not

 5     broadcast.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you like to have the break now?

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Now is a good time, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now is a good time.

 9             Then we will have a break and we resume at a quarter to 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             If we could now show 1D37-0068, not to be broadcast to the

15     public.

16             If we can turn to the next page, please.  Okay.

17        Q.   This is a statement given to the Gotovina Defence by a person who

18     was an ARSK military police officer in Obrovac on the 4th of August,

19     1995.

20             He says in his sworn statement at paragraph 2:  "Prior to

21     Operation Storm I occupied the post of military police officer in the 4th

22     Light Brigade, Obrovac."

23             Paragraph 4:  "The military police secured the brigade command

24     and when required intervened and participated in the combat activities."

25             Paragraph 5:  "Considering my duty, I am aware of the following

Page 6044

 1     locations that were used by the ARSK in Obrovac and its surrounding

 2     areas, it says:  "Immediately prior to Operation Storm, the command of

 3     the 4th Light Brigade was based in the medical centre Obrovac."

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Just for the record, Your Honour, I believe that

 5     the Croatian word is domsdravje [phoen].  It is translated as medical

 6     centre here and I believe it is also translated as the health centre on

 7     the map that was tendered by the Prosecution this morning and marked as

 8     C.

 9        Q.   Sir, are you aware that the command of the 4th Light Brigade in

10     the -- immediately prior to Operation Storm was located in the medical

11     centre or the health centre?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Okay.  He goes on to say:  "Approximately ten days prior to

14     Operation Storm, the brigade command was relocated from the new post

15     office building to the medical centre because it was assessed that the

16     old command post had been discovered."

17             Are you aware of the movement of the command of the 4th Light

18     Brigade in the days prior to Operation Storm from the new post office

19     building to the medical centre?

20        A.   First of all, I don't know that the brigade command post was at

21     the post office building.  Secondly, I am even less aware of the fact

22     that it was moved to the health centre.  I am absolutely certain I can

23     state with certainty that it was not ever at any point at the health

24     centre in fact.

25        Q.   He goes on to say:  "Before the post office building the brigade

Page 6045

 1     command was based at the community centre."  Do you have any knowledge of

 2     the brigade command having been once stationed in the community centre?

 3        A.   No, none.

 4        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... he goes on to say:  "And

 5     before that, in the hotel in Obrovac ... "

 6             Are you aware of the command at any point being stationed in the

 7     hotel?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   He completes that paragraph by saying:  "The brigade command was

10     secured by my MP platoon."  Was it standard procedure at least when you

11     were the commander of the 4th Light Brigade Obrovac that you would have

12     security provided to you by a military police platoon?

13        A.   Yes, the military police would provide security for the command

14     post.  Nothing debatable about that.  However, everything else is

15     debatable.  There is even reference here to the old post office building.

16     I don't think you could fit 40 people there.  Not even if they all lay

17     down on the floor.  That is where the Territorial Defence staff used to

18     be, two rooms about 15 square metres each, a total of 30, maybe 40

19     people, 30 square metres holding 40 people, I don't know, but that is

20     probably what he had in mind.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You anticipated my next question.

22             Then we shall move on to:  "The hotel in Obrovac was used by the

23     RSK special police platoon."

24             We'll stop there.  Was in fact the hotel being used by the

25     special police platoon of the RSK?

Page 6046

 1        A.   I stand by my previous statement.  The special police platoon at

 2     no point used the hotel as their accommodation.

 3        Q.   He says:  "The hotel was also used by the senior officers who

 4     were assigned in Obrovac.  They were guarded by my military police unit."

 5             Were you aware of accommodations for senior ARSK officers in the

 6     hotel?

 7        A.   I don't know which officers he had in mind.  I know that in

 8     principle, one or two officers would occasionally sleep at the hotel but

 9     it wasn't a permanent arrangement.  When he says "several officers," I'm

10     not sure who exactly he has in mind.  I didn't, and I was the highest

11     ranking member of that brigade.  That's one thing that I can tell you.

12        Q.   Okay.  How many -- well, he says:  "The RSK police used the

13     police building which is currently used by the police as well.  There

14     were approximately 50 to 60 police members.  I'm not certain because the

15     number was constantly changing."

16             What is your recollection of how many police members were

17     typically in the police station in August 1995?

18        A.   I don't know what he means by this.  Does he mean regular police?

19     In that case, never over 20 and this figure here is, well, you know, a

20     bit like that.

21        Q.   He says:  "At the Trio factory in Obrovac uniforms for the army

22     and police were manufactured.  I am not certain whether anything else was

23     sewn there.  We knew that our uniforms were made there."

24             Did you in fact make uniforms for the ARSK in the Trio factory?

25        A.   Well, I would need to tell you about the technical aspects and

Page 6047

 1     there is no time.  I don't think there is any need.  The factory could

 2     not produce any clothing.  As simple as that.

 3        Q.   With respect to the 4th of August, let me read six and seven

 4     together.  "There was army in Obrovac immediately before the start of

 5     Operation Storm.  I already named the units that were permanently based

 6     in Obrovac."

 7              "On 4 August, in the morning, tanks arrived in Obrovac, three

 8     tanks and three or four personnel carriers.  I am not certain of the

 9     number but I know that tanks arrived that morning."

10             Did you see, first -- I have two questions.  First, did you see

11     army personnel in Obrovac in the days leading up to Operation Storm?

12        A.   With the exception of the -- a soldier here or there, but no

13     major groups.  When I see this reference to tanks, I didn't see any, and

14     that's why I told that you the 4th Light Brigade had no tanks, it is

15     possible that something was brought in on the 4th, on that day itself,

16     but nothing that I saw or was aware of.

17        Q.   And in Obrovac, on the 4th itself, did you see tanks and

18     personnel carriers?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   We'll get to a map in a few minutes, but there's a bridge over

21     the river Zrmanje in Obrovac.  If the army wanted to put -- move forces

22     into that area of the front line that you drew on the map, or rotate

23     forces out to get over the river Zrmanje, would they have to cross over a

24     bridge in Obrovac to get over the river?

25        A.   Yes, and no, depending on the commander's decision because there

Page 6048

 1     is another crossing about 10 or 15 kilometres downstream from there.  It

 2     is the bridge over the Zrmanja river, the reversible hydro power plant.

 3     So this bridge was not the only crossing that was available.

 4        Q.   We will show the Trial Chamber the crossings over the river, but

 5     what I want to point out and ask you is, in section of the river, the

 6     only way to get across the river to the front line that you drew on the

 7     map is to go over the bring in Obrovac.  Isn't that correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So if the army wanted to send reinforcements up to the front

10     line, at least for that portion of the river, they would have had to go

11     through Obrovac, over the bridge and to the front line.  Correct?

12        A.   I should try to tackle this differently, but all right, I will

13     say yes, just in order to make sure we don't waste any more time on this.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move on to this statement and then we'll get to

15     the bridges in a few minutes.

16             He goes on to say:  "On that day a lot of army was present in

17     Obrovac, both permanent units, such as our unit, and the special police

18     and army that passed through heading towards their positions.  It is it

19     difficult to say how many soldiers were present, but the town was full of

20     them."

21             If, in fact it turns out that the town was full of soldiers at

22     certain points, at least, soldiers moving to the front line over the

23     bridge in Obrovac, can you explain why it might be that you didn't see

24     any soldiers in Obrovac on the 4th?

25             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm -- I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I think that

Page 6049

 1     assumes facts not in evidence and calls for speculation, if in fact there

 2     were a town full of soldiers and you wouldn't see.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's try to stick as close as possible to

 4     what is in evidence.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Well, Your Honour, I can do it the long way, too,

 6     which is --

 7        Q.   You've already testified, sir, that you were out several times

 8     during the day, you left the city of Obrovac, you went to go see your

 9     family, you were out on the roads.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   How long -- how long did your trips out of Obrovac on the 4th

12     take?

13        A.   As long as it took to cross 18 kilometres there, 18 back and

14     about ten minutes spent with my family.

15        Q.   How did you get -- it obviously depends on the means that you

16     took to travel these 18 kilometres.

17        A.   I drove.

18        Q.   So do you have a rough estimate of how much time your trips out

19     and back took?

20        A.   About an hour, an hour and a half, depending.

21        Q.   And how many trips out of Obrovac were there on the 4th of August

22     for you?

23        A.   Twice.  I went twice.

24        Q.   So it is at least three hours in the day on the 4th of

25     August where you were present in the town?

Page 6050

 1        A.   Thereabouts.  Yes, between two and three hours, I would say.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  If we could turn to paragraph 8 of this statement.

 3     This witness mentions just as you mentioned in your earlier testimony

 4     there was a kitchen in Zegar.  He says at the Trio factory.  "The cooking

 5     was done there, meals were prepared for the entire 4th Light Brigade,

 6     Obrovac and the civilian police.  The depot was also in the old school

 7     building in Zegar.  It was an ammunition and fuel depot.  The objects

 8     were guarded by the reserve army, the Territorial Defence?"

 9             First, did Trio have another factory in Zegar?

10        A.   Yes, as I said.

11        Q.   So I may have misunderstood you before, so let's clarify again.

12     The kitchen, was the kitchen for the military in the Trio factory in

13     Zegar or in the old school in Zegar?

14        A.   The Trio factory.

15        Q.   And you agree with this witness that the depot was located in the

16     old school building in Zegar.  Is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that's what I said.

18        Q.   Paragraph 9 he says:  "There was an ammunition and equipment

19     depot in the settlement Krupa in the school building and in private

20     houses around the school building.  Mostly artillery ammunition was kept

21     there."

22             Do you have any knowledge of depots in Krupa?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   And then this witness also mentions what we saw in

25     Mr. Paravinja's report before the ARSK left the depot was blown up.

Page 6051

 1             In paragraph 10 he says:  "The forward command post of the

 2     brigade was located in the factory Glinica and in the locality Caber on

 3     the Velebit.  Mount Caber is a basin on the Velebit mountain.  The

 4     kitchen was there."

 5             How many forward command posts did the 4th Light Brigade, Obrovac

 6     have in August 1995?

 7        A.   I don't know about August 1995.  As I said, the brigade command

 8     post was in the Glinica factory and remained there until the 24th of

 9     January, 1993 but not after.  It was then moved to Caber.  Therefore,

10     this statement is true only to the extent that it mentions Caber but what

11     it says about the Glinica factory, I know for certain that that is not

12     true.

13        Q.   And you know for concern -- when was the last time you visited

14     the Glinica factory before Operation Storm?

15        A.   There was no need for me to visit.  I hadn't visited since 1993,

16     simply because there was no reason.

17        Q.   So from 1993 until the beginning of Operation Storm, you never

18     physically were present at the Glinica factory.  Correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Thank you.  He goes on in paragraph 11, I'll read just read it

21     for the record.  I think I know your answer to, but you'll recall that

22     the report of Captain Paravinja from 9 August talked about mortars,

23     Howitzers, guns, et cetera.  He says here is where they were deployed.

24     120-millimetre mortars, I think a mortar battery were in the village

25     Rastovac.  105-millimetre Howitzers, I think a 105-millimetre Howitzer

Page 6052

 1     battery were in the village Demnjak.  122-millimetre Howitzers, I think

 2     three or four pieces were in the village Muskovci.  The 130-millimetre

 3     gun was moved to various positions.  I remember that it was located in

 4     Olujici, Bilisane, Muskovci and prior to Operation Storm at Krusevo in

 5     the village Sose.

 6             Let me ask you again, you have no knowledge of where this type of

 7     weaponry was deployed by the 4th Light Brigade, Obrovac, immediately

 8     preceding Operation Storm or on the 4th of August.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct, as I've explained before.  I had nothing to

10     do with the brigade.  I don't know.  They may have been right there.  But

11     this is the front line that I marked on the map, so, there.

12        Q.   At paragraph 12 he says:  "The armoured units were in Krusevo.

13     These were T-34 tank units which were immobile and served as guns.  I do

14     not recall their exact number.  T-55 tanks were in the village Bilisane,

15     Grande, as well as an escort personnel carrier.  There were approximately

16     six to seven of them.  I am not certain of the exact number.  Another

17     T-55 was located in the village of Modrici, above Obrovac."

18             Again, with respect to these tanks, T-55s, T-34s, personnel

19     carriers, you have no knowledge of where any of this equipment might have

20     been immediately preceding Operation Storm or on the 4th of August.

21     Correct?

22        A.   Correct.  But I do notice something there that is

23     counterintuitive, if I may just tell you about that.  There was a report

24     by someone before and it was said that the T-34 tanks were blocking

25     something over at Velebit, which means that they were moving about and

Page 6053

 1     here they are described as being stationary.  I think this is an

 2     indication enough of fabrication.  I don't believe that there this many

 3     tanks around and yet I saw none.  I don't think that is plausible.

 4        Q.   Let's continue to the final portion.  At paragraph 13:  "The air

 5     defence was located in the factory Glinica, BOFORS guns, I think two

 6     pieces, and one air defence rocket Strela.  In the area Berevaca above

 7     Obrovac, a Strela rocket.  In the area Caber, Cabec, also Strela."

 8             You -- I think I asked you this before but let me ask you again,

 9     you would not have any information as to the location of any of these

10     BOFORS guns or air defence rockets prior to or during Operation Storm.

11     Is that correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, consistent with our procedures here I

14     will obviously not tender the statement and I will proceed.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have read the relevant portions,

16     especially since it will not be tendered at this moment.  You called it a

17     sworn statement.  I see that it is given and attested by a notary public

18     that a statement was given but I do not see any oath taken anywhere.  Is

19     that --

20             MR. MISETIC:  You're right, Your Honour.  I may not have used the

21     term properly.  If we flip to the signature page I think there's a --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I've read the signature page.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I don't have it in front of me, so --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's have a look at it.  At least I have

25     looked at the translation and we have the certification of the notary

Page 6054

 1     public and even what he charged for it.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  If we can flip up, I'm actually interested in the

 3     one above.

 4             You're right, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Especially since it is not in evidence, I think it

 6     is good to have it precisely on the record.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Just one point, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  I believe that the procedure was to mark it for

11     identification but not tender it into evidence.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  It depends on whether there were ever -- whether

13     this person will ever be called as a witness because under those

14     circumstances we could seek attestations, further attestations.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Obviously if there is an Defence case we intend to

16     call him.  However in light of the Gojanovic documents which ultimately

17     the Chamber --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We don't want to have them on the list --

19             MR. MISETIC:  Correct.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- in certain circumstances so as soon as a witness

21     is expected to testify then we keep them on the MFI list and if not, then

22     of course at a later stage they can be reintroduced on --

23             MR. MISETIC:  Whether you wish to MFI them or -- it doesn't

24     matter to me, so ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that for the time being this would --

Page 6055

 1             Please --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             If we could now turn to 1D37-0080, please.  If we could start

 4     with page 6.

 5        Q.   This is -- if we could also get the English.  I don't know if we

 6     can do both.

 7             Now, Witness, in light of the fact that you do not know or have

 8     any information about the location of specific types of weaponry, you may

 9     not be able to identify many of the locations here?

10             MR. MISETIC:  And this is for the benefit of the Trial Chamber.

11        Q.   However you mentioned Zegar, which is at number 11, and can you

12     confirm that that is in fact the location where the kitchen and arms

13     depot was located?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   At number 10, that is where Krupa is located, but I believe your

16     testimony is you were unaware of any depots in Krupa?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   Okay.  And let us turn the page.  Okay.

19             This is now the map of the bridges along the river Zrmanje.  And

20     you had anticipated some of what I wanted to talk to you about.

21             The river Zrmanje divides the north-west portion of what was then

22     the Republika Srpska Krajina from Knin.  Correct?

23        A.   I don't think I quite understand.  Can you repeat that one for

24     me, please.

25        Q.   The river Zrmanje is a line that divides the north, north-west

Page 6056

 1     from where Knin is located and the southern part of the Sector South or

 2     so-called Republika Srpska Krajina, correct?

 3        A.   Yes, in a manner of speaking.

 4        Q.   Now to cross that river, there were four crossing points,

 5     correct?  Actually, yeah, four crossing points and those crossing points

 6     were the bridge in Obrovac.  Correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   I believe you started to mention this earlier in your testimony

 9     the bridge at the power plant Obrovac-Muskovci.  Correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   There is an bridge in Krupa.  Correct?

12        A.   The bring in Krupa has nothing to do with the Zrmanje river.  It

13     is a bridge on the Krupa river.

14        Q.   Are those two rivers connected?

15        A.   Yes.  The Krupa flows into the Zrmanje but lower down.

16        Q.   And if you look on this map, the bridge at Kastel Zegarski, can

17     you tell us what river that crosses?

18        A.   The Zrmanje.

19        Q.   Okay.  Now if those bridges had been blown up by artillery, how

20     would one have gotten from Knin, let's say, to the front line, where you

21     draw it on the map for the Prosecution?

22        A.   The Zrmanje river is above the bridge on Kastel Zegarski, which

23     means upstream about two and a half to three kilometres and it is

24     possible to cross the Zrmanje by just wading through the water because it

25     is it not very deep.  In Ervenik the river ends.  There is no water flow

Page 6057

 1     in the summer.  One could also come to Knin from a different direction

 2     from Knin-Gracac on the road, by the road.  So it was possible to reach

 3     this place even without the bridges.

 4        Q.   It would have been considerably more difficult to get from Knin

 5     to the front line where you drew it on the map if those bridges were not

 6     in place, than simply to go straight to Obrovac or to Muskovci, cross the

 7     bridge and get to the front line.  Is that correct?

 8        A.   It depends on where the troops that needed to reach the front

 9     line were, so the road from -- via Gracac to Obrovac is not any longer

10     than the road via Ervenik and Zegari, if that's what you're asking, if

11     that is the purpose of your question.

12             In fact, I think I understand what your question is aiming at but

13     this is all can I answer.

14        Q.   Let's say --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  You don't have to figure out what the aim of

16     Mr. Misetic's --

17             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   Let's say they wanted to rotate troops from Benkovac to the front

19     line.  If the bridge there Obrovac were destroyed how would troops go

20     from Benkovac to the front line?

21        A.   I was expecting this question.

22             It was possible to cross the Zrmanje river on foot, beyond the

23     bridge in Kasatel Zegarski and it was also possible to cross it on the

24     white waters where, in the summer, you can cross it.  There is no

25     impediment there to just cross it by walking and this is even closer than

Page 6058

 1     the Kastel bring or the Muskovci bridge.  So one could cross the river

 2     over these two waterfalls, if you want to call them, or just white waters

 3     there just by Muskovci.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, was the bridge ever destroyed?

 5             MR. MISETIC:  It wasn't destroyed, no, that's a good point.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It still could be used.  What is the use of saying

 7     if the bridge would be there, what would be -- of course apart from

 8     taking another bridge, isn't it true that if a bridge is not to be used

 9     anymore that you would adapt all kind of operational -- you might

10     relocate troops for that purpose.  I mean what is the --

11             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, we have testimony, well, I prefer not

12     to do this -- he probably speaks English, but --

13             He is answering my questions pretty quickly before the

14     translation's done --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR.  MISETIC: -- so I'm not sure he doesn't.

17             But the point being the testimony of the witness is there were no

18     military targets and no reason to shell Obrovac and that's -- in the

19     evidence --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you --

21             MR. MISETIC:  So I think the witness is fully aware that shelling

22     the bridge in Obrovac, if nothing else, would impede the RSK army in

23     light of the configuration of the territory, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

25             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine, Your Honour.

Page 6059

 1             Your Honour, I would ask that this PowerPoint be marked and I

 2     tender it.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  There's two points, Your Honour.  First of all

 4     only two of these pages were shown to the witness and not the other ones,

 5     so I guess just want to know what the foundation of the other ones is.

 6     And the second point is on the previous page, what's shown as a bunch of

 7     locations have been identified and I'm just wondering if there is any

 8     other information on the underlying information more than the report that

 9     was shown in the statement of the witness and if there is so that we know

10     where these circles on the map and numbers come from.

11             Barring that, there are no objections.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, it is clear that the witness could

13     identify only one or two.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us who else invented what was on this

16     map.

17             MR. MISETIC:  It is prepared by our team, Your Honour.  It's

18     based on --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So that is whatever the witness could not

20     confirm --

21             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- remains there not as anything from a source which

23     this Chamber could rely on but is just what the understanding of the

24     Defence is.

25             MR. MISETIC:  That's right.  And with respect to the prior pages,

Page 6060

 1     some of the prior pages some of them are general maps.  There is a

 2     section in there about the Maslenica operation in 1993 which I now don't

 3     feel the need to go through.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  So if just we can put on there that we have no

 6     intention at this point to use those, just the two that were shown, one

 7     of which is limited to what this witness was able to identify.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there a possibility to recreate them in such a

 9     way --

10             MR. MISETIC:  Sure.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- that we are not confused by any information about

12     what was where if it is not adduced in evidence in the usual way.

13             MR. MISETIC:  If you wish, I can just print out just these two

14     pages and admit them as the exhibit, replace the one that is there now in

15     e-court with the one that's shortened.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course.  Therefore you don't have to print it out

17     but to manipulate what now comes into e-court.

18             I suggest that we ask provisionally for a number to

19     Mr. Registrar, mark it for identification that you upload the final

20     versions which can create no confusion as far as the --

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  -- Chamber is concerned.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number

Page 6061

 1     D525 marked for identification.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D525 is awaiting to be replaced by another version.

 3     Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   My final set of questions, sir, is you were -- the Prosecution

 6     has told the Defence that they were able to contact you through Mr. Sovo

 7     Strboc and his organisation Veritas.  Can you tell us how you were made

 8     aware that the Prosecution wished to speak to you?

 9        A.   Well, the answer is contained in your question, in other words,

10     through Mr. Strboc.

11        Q.   So Mr. Strboc called you up and said that the Office of the

12     Prosecutor wished to speak to you.  Is that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And what did he tell you they wished to speak to you about?

15        A.   I did not have a lengthy conversation with Mr. Strboc, but in

16     general he said that they wanted to talk to me about these events

17     relating to the 4th of August, 1995.

18        Q.   And specifically did he tell that you the Office of the

19     Prosecutor wished to speak to you about shelling in Obrovac?

20        A.   No.  Only about the events and the knowledge that I had, but

21     nobody mentioned any specifics.

22        Q.   And finally my last question is, how well do you know Mr. Strboc?

23        A.   Well, it depends what you mean by that.  I knew him from way back

24     when we were in school together in Zadar.  It wasn't a very close

25     relationship, and I only met him again in 1992 or 1993 in Benkovac.  So

Page 6062

 1     I -- I have known him for many years, but we didn't have all that many

 2     encounters.  So, in that sense, I have known him for a brief time.  I

 3     know him from the home in Zadar, but after that, I didn't meet him up

 4     until 1992 or 1993.

 5        Q.   Thank you for coming to testify, Mr. Dupud.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Misetic, I've got a question for

 8     you.  All the distances indicated on the bridges map are distances by

 9     road, I take it, and not as the crow flies.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I believe it is as the crow flies, but

11     let me confirm that.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Usually --

13             MR. MISETIC:  You're right.  Let me get the --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the squares on a map depict, these size of maps,

15     square kilometres.  If that would be the case, then certainly it's not --

16             MR. MISETIC:  I will have the answer to you by the time we finish

17     today.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, the witness -- do you know these

19     distances you find on that map, are these distances as the crow flies or

20     distances if you take the shortest route by road?  If you know.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the crow flies.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we have to look at the scale of the map and --

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I notice that we didn't put the

24     scale on.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  This is an scale on but of course I take it has been

Page 6063

 1     enlarged.  It says scale 1:60.000, but as soon as you start enlarging,

 2     then scale doesn't help anymore unless the scale is there set out in

 3     kilometres because you enlarge and reduce that together with the map but

 4     that's not what we find here from what I see.

 5             We -- we'll wait for your final answer.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7             Mr. Cayley.

 8             MR. CAYLEY:  Nothing from us, Your Honour, thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Nothing.

10             Mr. Mikulicic.

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dupud, in these proceedings I am the

14     Defence counsel for Mr. Markac, and, please -- I will have a few

15     questions for you, so pleas answer to the best of your abilities.  I do

16     have a request for you, because we speak the same language, we need to

17     pause between question and answer so that our words can be interpreted.

18             Mr. Dupud, you mentioned that you are an engineer.  Is that

19     correct?

20        A.   [No interpretation].

21        Q.   Tell us what is your formal education, your formal background?

22        A.   The higher textile school in Zagreb.

23        Q.   Did you undergo any military training?

24        A.   The reserve officers' school and some courses, but that's all.

25        Q.   You were a reserve officer in the JNA.  What was your rank?

Page 6064

 1        A.   I was a major.

 2        Q.   And what was your rank in the army of the Republic of Serbian

 3     Krajina?

 4        A.   I had the same rank.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar please pull

 6     up Exhibit P551.  That's a map that we saw during the questions that the

 7     Prosecutor had.

 8        Q.   While we wait for the map to come up, let me just say that this

 9     is a map where you've marked certain positions and what I would like to

10     ask you about is the front line.

11             As I said, after 1993, in other words, after Operation Maslenica.

12             While we're waiting for the map to come up, tell us, did the

13     front line, after the Maslenica operation in 1993 up until August 1995,

14     did the front line change?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Just a few more minutes, now we can --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. Mikulicic, I have a hard copy of the witness

19     if that can make it easier.

20             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, in fact, I would like to blow up the upper

21     portion of the chart because I think it would be more visible if we blow

22     it up.

23             Okay, that's it.  I think that suffice.  Thank you.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Dupud, in the upper part of the map where

25     we can see the front line you notice that left of the last dot to the

Page 6065

 1     west of the last dot, we can see Tulove Grede.

 2             Can you remember at the time we are discussing here, which is

 3     1993, and since you mentioned that there was no change in the front line

 4     up until August 1995, who -- or which was the neighbouring unit of the

 5     Obrovac brigade holding this position?  I mean the neighbour to the north

 6     on the other side of the Velebit mountain.

 7        A.   The military neighbour was the Gracac Brigade, I think.  I think

 8     it was a brigade of the 15th Corps.  But in any case, from Gracac.

 9        Q.   Did you know the commander of that brigade, Mr. Jovan Kordic?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you know how many men the brigade had?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Do you know where its command post was?

14        A.   I'm not sure.  I'm not sure, but I think it was in Gracac

15     somewhere, to the west.  I'm not sure.  I can't really reply.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I suppose you don't know how many men it numbered or

17     what kind of weapons it had, the Gracac Brigade?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Today during your evidence, and I'm referring to page 85, line 2,

20     you said that there were T-34 tanks on the Velebit mountain.  Do you know

21     exactly where they were?

22        A.   I said that I didn't know that they were on Mount Velebit and now

23     I am maintaining that they weren't there.  Because the Velebit area is

24     not passable for a tank.  So I did not say that there were tanks up

25     there.  Somebody else said that.

Page 6066

 1        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  You mentioned in your -- during your

 2     evidence, Mr. Dupud, you mentioned the police and approximately how many

 3     men they had.  What was the role of the police within the defence

 4     framework, the defence of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?

 5        A.   The police conducted the normal tasks that it did in peacetime,

 6     so it -- the regular police forces did not have any role in the defence

 7     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 8        Q.   Is it your evidence that the police did not contribute on the

 9     forward front line -- defence lines?

10        A.   Precisely, that is what I'm claiming.

11        Q.   There was also talk about the evacuation of civilians.  I

12     wouldn't want to expand on that.  Perhaps just a question or two.

13             After you were demobilised you were a manager of a factory.

14     Correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   How many people did the factory employ?

17        A.   Before the war, there were 975 employees.  In 1993, it operated

18     at a lower capacity because in 1991 and 1992 it was not operational, and

19     there were about 120 employees, most of them women.  Perhaps one or two

20     mechanics but that's it.

21        Q.   Was there an evacuation plan for the factory employees?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Is it your evidence that in the event of a threat or a dangerous

24     situation there was no plan for evacuation for the factory workers to

25     bring them to safety?

Page 6067

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   You mean there was no plan?

 3        A.   That's correct, there was no plan.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you left Obrovac around midnight and

 5     then that you left Zegari and that you were going on -- on the road to --

 6     to Gracac when you left.  Did you enter Gracac itself, the town of

 7     Gracac?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   If I recall your words correctly you said that from Gracac you

10     headed for Srb.  Correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Do you know where Stikade is?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is it correct that this is a town on the road between Gracac and

15     Gospic, some seven kilometres to the west of Gracac?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   Is it correct that you did not go through Stikada town?

18        A.   There was no need for that, because it is not on the road to Srb.

19     You don't have to go through it if you want to go to Srb.

20        Q.   Tell me then, how is it that you said that in Gracac and in

21     Stikada at the time when you went through them there were no Croatian

22     troops when you never went into Gracac or Stikada?

23        A.   Because on the Obrovac-Gracac road, the police was positioned

24     there, and they stopped me and they told me.

25        Q.   So, in other words, your evidence is that you did not see this

Page 6068

 1     for yourself?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Did you observe the withdrawal of the army of the Republic of

 4     Serbian Krajina with your own eyes?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Thank you for your answers.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I have one point of clarification that just arose,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

13        Q.   Mr. Dupud, you were shown a statement from another witness about

14     where the forward command post may be located.  There was the hotel, the

15     post office and the Glinica factory and the location in the Velebit.  So

16     I'm just a little confused can you clarify for me.

17             Until 1993 when you were the commander of the 4th Light Brigade,

18     how many forward command posts were there?

19             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have to clarify the question because

20     it doesn't accurately characterize what the statement says.  There is a

21     distinction between the command location and a forward command post and I

22     believe the witness statement says there were two forward command posts

23     but multiple command headquarters.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, are you able to include this in your

25     question, this --

Page 6069

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.

 2        Q.   Until 1993 when you were the commander of the 4th Light Brigade,

 3     how many forward command posts were there?

 4                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 5        A.   A forward command post is only in use or becomes operational once

 6     combat begins, and by -- until 1993, the 20th --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure of the day.

 8        A.   -- of January 1993, the command post was where it was marked on

 9     the map.  After this, the other command post was formed on the Velebit

10     mountain, and it was a single forward command post, because there was no

11     need to have another forward command post.  In other words, there was

12     just this one forward command post, except if there is something that I

13     wasn't aware of.  Or, rather, I claim that there was only this one

14     command post on the Velebit mountain and no others.

15             And, of course, I also clarified about Zegar.  In addition to the

16     ammunitions depot there and the kitchen or the mess hall, there was also

17     an administration building or offices for the brigade and these

18     administrative services do not mean that there was a brigade command

19     there.  The brigade command was up on the Velebit.

20        Q.   Other than the forward command posts, were there any other

21     command locations of the 4th Light Brigade in Obrovac when you were

22     commander of the 4th Light Brigade?

23        A.   No.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  That's all I have, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 6070

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Gwaunza has one question for you.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Just one question.

 5             Going back to your statement, paragraph 5 -- sorry.

 6             If I could just ask one question, and that goes back to your

 7     statement, paragraph 5, where you talked about personally knowing of

 8     seven or eight people who stayed behind and they were killed.

 9             Did you ever get to know how they were killed?

10        A.   In my statement, I said that this was indirect knowledge.  I

11     learned of this from the families of these people.  And, of course, at

12     the very start when that happened, so that I do not have any personal

13     knowledge as to how this came about, how it happened.

14             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Question of the Bench has not triggered any need for

16     further questions.

17             Then, Mr. Dupud, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to

18     The Hague and to testify, for having answered all the questions put to

19     you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home

20     again.

21             Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

22     courtroom.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Tieger, Mr. Hedaraly, is the Prosecution ready

Page 6071

 1     to call its next witness, let me first ask you that.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  We are, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, we are at a quarter to 2.00.

 4     Nevertheless, if we would start for only five to ten minutes with the

 5     next witness, then we might be better to able to know where we stand,

 6     also for the coming days.  It might not come as a surprise that before

 7     this Chamber could decide on the admission of 92 ter statements that,

 8     first of all, one of the requirements, of course, would be the

 9     attestation and since this might become a matter of which we would prefer

10     to know about at this moment rather than by surprise tomorrow morning,

11     the Chamber is seeking, as a matter of fact, another ten minutes to see

12     whether we can come to a point where at least we have some information

13     which is of high relevance for the coming days.

14             Would there be any objection by the Defence to -- that is to set

15     one step then, of course --

16             Good afternoon, Ms. Mahindaratne.

17             Yes.  No objections.

18             MR. MISETIC:  No objections, Your Honour.  I'm not quite sure how

19     we wish to proceed --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, to call the witness perhaps --

21             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.  I have no objection to staying later.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, of course, then I have to sort out my problems

23     with the next Chamber who is schedule for this courtroom.

24             One second, please.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 6072

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  For the next witness there is no request for

 2     protective measures as far as I understand.  You are the one who takes

 3     the next witness.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for very practical purposes, have you

 6     communicated these days with the witness?

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  We haven't had any kind of

 8     communication whatsoever.  We attempted to proof the witness in Zagreb

 9     but the witness --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That answers already my question.  Then are

11     you ready to call your next witness.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now before you give his name because out of an

14     abundance of caution the Chamber would like to go into private session

15     for a minute to find out, especially since there has been no

16     communication with you, whether the witness would want to seek any

17     protective measures.  Just to find out whether there's any wish in that

18     respect.  So, therefore, the witness is to be brought into the courtroom;

19     at the same time, we turn into private session.  That means that all

20     protective measures, as we could envisage are temporarily in place.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6073











11  Page 6073 redacted. Private session.















Page 6074

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             I think that then that also the curtain could be -- yes, if

Page 6075

 1     you ...

 2             Mr. Hedaraly, you'll get some instruction on how to move the

 3     curtains.

 4             Yes, could I, first of all, ask you to refrain from having eye

 5     contact with all kind of people, the ones who are addressing you at this

 6     moment, it's me and then after that the party who will examine you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please stand and under the rules you are

 9     required to make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out

10     to you.

11             May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO JANIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you very much.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise for the eye contact

18     previously.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to -- and I don't

20     know whether you were already in the courtroom when I explained that we

21     would make a short start.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, yes, Mr. President I learned of it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Mr. Janic, you will first be examined by

24     Ms. Mahindaratne who is counsel for the Prosecution.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 6076

 1                           Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Janic.  Can you please state your full name

 3     for the record.

 4        A.   Zdravko Janic.

 5        Q.   What is your current occupation?

 6        A.   I am a commander of the special police with the Ministry of

 7     Interior, of Croatia, of course.

 8        Q.   On 13th and 14th of January, 2004, were you interviewed by

 9     investigators attached to the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And was that interview conducted with an interpreter?

12        A.   Indeed.

13        Q.   When the investigators questioned you, did you answer those

14     questions truthfully?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And were those answers recorded in a statement form,

17     type-written?

18        A.   Yes.  At least as far as I know.

19        Q.   And at the completion of the interview, the conclusion, was that

20     statement read back to you in your own language?

21        A.   Indeed.

22        Q.   And did you sign that statement?

23        A.   I don't quite remember.  I think so, but I'm not certain.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call for document number 5217, please.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Janic, you will see a document on your screen right in

Page 6077

 1     front of you.  And if you could take a look at that document and identify

 2     it?

 3        A.   That's my signature.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Registrar, if we could go through each page so that

 5     Mr. Janic could identify his signature on each page, at the bottom of

 6     each page, going right up to the signature page.

 7             Mr. Janic, do you note your signature at the bottom of each of

 8     these pages?  I think we don't see the bottom.  Your signature is in the

 9     English copy, Mr. Janic.

10        A.   Right now I can't see anything.

11        Q.   Okay.  Now you could see it.

12        A.   Yes.  Yes, these are initials, not a full signature.  The full

13     signature was on the last page alone.  The remaining pages were

14     initialed.

15        Q.   Yes.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  If we could go to the last page if you could

17     just ...

18        Q.   Do you recognise your full signature?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Janic, are you familiar with the content today, or do

21     you need to read this document because I'm going to be asking you if the

22     contents are true to the best of your knowledge.

23        A.   I remember the substance of my statement.  I studied it.  There

24     are perhaps a number of things that were perhaps not quite translated

25     appropriately, but this does not, at any point, distort the meaning.

Page 6078

 1        Q.   Are you able to answer my question, then, when I ask you if the

 2     contents of this statement are true to the best of your knowledge?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And if the questions that were asked of you by the investigators

 5     were asked today in court, would you respond in the same manner?

 6        A.   Yes, I would, the same way.  Maybe not each of the letters I

 7     spoke were translated accurately, as I was speaking, but the gist is

 8     still there.

 9        Q.   Can we just, first, ask you at what stage did you realise or note

10     that there were inaccuracies in the interpretation or translation?  When

11     did you realise that?

12        A.   As I was preparing for my evidence here.  These are not major

13     inaccuracy, but I can't say I haven't noticed a number of inaccuracies.

14        Q.   And --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Let be very practical, Ms. Mahindaratne.

16             When you prepared for your testimony today, did you have the

17     B/C/S version available to you of your witness statement?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... English

20     available.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I think, Ms. Mahindaratne, I think the wisest

23     thing to do is, because we have to stop anyhow very soon, to ask the

24     witness to check exactly where the issues and minor inaccuracies are and

25     then to tell us about it tomorrow.

Page 6079

 1             Would you be willing to tell us -- I don't know how many there

 2     are.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Then, Ms. Mahindaratne, of course, this

 5     seems -- I would not have been surprised if you would have started with

 6     the other statement.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I could also -- I note there

 8     is a decision pending on the video recorded interview.  Subject to that,

 9     perhaps we take the opportunity to ask the witness that tonight he

10     also --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I can tell you already that the -- to the extent the

12     Prosecution has sought exclusion under Rule 95 that that request is

13     denied and that the decision will be filed this afternoon.  That's just

14     exclusion on the basis of 95.  Yes?

15             Also for your information.

16             Please proceed, Ms. Mahindaratne, and let's try to get -- see

17     whether we can finish in a couple of minutes.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

19        Q.   Mr. Janic, were you also interviewed in 2005 in Zagreb field

20     office?

21        A.   Yes.  At that time --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer.

23     The interpreter could not hear his answer.

24        A.   Yes.  At that time, I had -- I was in the status of suspect.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

Page 6080

 1        Q.   And during that interview -- no.  Was that interview conducted

 2     via an interpreter?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And during that interview, were you represented by your counsel?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   When you were asked questions by the investigators, did you

 7     respond truthfully?

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, this is the point where we may wish to

 9     have him get advice of counsel before he answers the --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whether he needs advice of counsel.

11             But Mr. Janic, if by answering any question to Ms. Mahindaratne

12     you would expose yourself to further investigation or prosecution, either

13     on the basis of what is asked, the content, or if you would consider that

14     answering that question truthfully might reveal that at any earlier stage

15     you committed an offence, whatever that offence would be, whether it

16     would be offences in 1995 or at any later stage, then you can ask the

17     Chamber not to be obliged to answer such a question.  Nevertheless, the

18     Chamber, under certain conditions, has the power to force you to at least

19     to oblige you to, nevertheless, answer the question.

20             If it comes to that, I will further explain the matter to you.

21             Ms. Mahindaratne.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

23        Q.   Mr. Janic, my question, I do not know if you responded to that --

24     yes.  When you were asked questions by members of the Office of the

25     Prosecutor, did you answer those questions truthfully?

Page 6081

 1        A.   What are you referring to?  I -- I'm not sure I understood.

 2     Which questioning do you mean?  As a witness, in 1994; or as a suspect in

 3     2005?

 4        Q.   As a suspect in 2005.

 5        A.   Well, as my counsel advised me, that my statement, as a suspect,

 6     cannot be used in these proceedings.  I was advised, in other words, I

 7     was told, that only my statement given as a witness in 2004 can be used

 8     in these proceedings.

 9             I don't know if I'm right about this and I would appreciate the

10     Presiding Judge advising me thereof.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if that advice was given to you at the time,

12     then, of course, we'd have to distinguish between certain matters.  That

13     is, whether it could be used against you yourself if you would ever have

14     been indicted, which I do understand is not the case; and if your

15     counsel, at that time, would have said that under no circumstances your

16     statement could be used, then that advice was not accurate.  But -- so,

17     therefore, that statement, under certain circumstances, can be used.

18     Whether it will be used is still a matter to be seen.  But at this moment

19     we are still at the point where Ms. Mahindaratne asked you whether you

20     answered the questions truthfully.

21             Could you answer that question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

24        Q.   And were those -- was that interview video recorded?

25        A.   Yes, it was.

Page 6082

 1        Q.   At the conclusion of your interview, was your attorney handed

 2     over three copies of the video tapes?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to review those video tapes since

 5     then, that's recently, or the transcripts thereof?

 6        A.   No.  I do have the video tapes in my possession, but because the

 7     counsel told me then that my suspect interview could not be used in these

 8     proceedings, I did not consider it necessary to prepare and review those

 9     video tapes.  I prepared exclusively by reading my witness statement from

10     2004.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, this is why I wanted to finish

12     today.  Perhaps we could ask the witness --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We have, of course, a bit of a different

14     situation here since there's a video recording available.  We have, as a

15     matter of fact, two questions mainly remain not whether the statement as

16     such reflects what the witness said because unless there's any suspicion

17     of forgery with the tapes, that question could be verified by the Chamber

18     itself.

19             We now have an answer of the witness to the question whether he

20     truthfully answered the -- that he truthfully answered the questions that

21     were put to him at that time.  The one, then, remaining question would

22     be, Mr. Janic, whether you would give the same answers if the same

23     questions would be put to you in this courtroom.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I would.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I suggest, Ms. Mahindaratne, that we give

Page 6083

 1     an opportunity to this witness also and even the technical facilities, to

 2     review the video or the written statements, so that if there are any

 3     corrections to be made, that they could be made.  At the same time, I

 4     take it that you want to tender both statements under 92 ter, Rule 92 ter

 5     and we have heard already that there are objections by the Defence.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President and with regard to the

 7     statement there were no objections from the Defence and I believe --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  This statement, not the interview which, of course,

 9     then would also be a statement.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There we stand at this moment.  I -- of course

12     the Chamber would like to know whether the attestation would be given as

13     required because if there is no attestation, then, of course, matters are

14     quite different.

15             Let me just confer.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, we are now, of course, at a different

18     stage; that is, a stage where the documents have been tendered.  Until

19     now, the submissions by the parties were in a different procedural stage.

20             Now, of course, the question is how to proceed.  May I take it

21     that there still are objections against admission for the same reasons as

22     you have.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there anything that you would like to add to

25     those reasons?

Page 6084

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Um --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Not -- and then, of course, I'm looking at the

 3     clock.  I've stolen already 25 minutes, so we really have to conclude.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Then I would prefer --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any way of informing Mr. Tieger and the

 6     bench perhaps because we are -- of course, we are running out of time.

 7     If you want to continue tomorrow morning, to put it briefly on paper

 8     whether any additional arguments and if it could not be filed, then at

 9     least to send already a courtesy copy and of course the shorter you take

10     it, the quicker it goes.  Of course if you need a bit more time, then --

11             MR. MISETIC:  I don't anticipate --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You must have given some thought already to the

13     matter.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, I did.  And if we have anything we will

15     certainly e-mail it around this evening.

16             We just wanted to note that it appears that there were some

17     issues that have been raised concerning some of the technical matters

18     regarding this witness.  Is that correct?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Some --

20             MR. MISETIC:  In other words, all of these technical issues with

21     respect to this witness's 92 ter statement that we've gone through now.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  These, of course, are the questions that have to be

23     put to the witness if a party is seeking to have the 92 ter statements

24     admitted into evidence.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Well, we were unaware -- I was unaware that the

Page 6085

 1     Prosecution had not had an opportunity to communicate with -- with the

 2     witness prior to.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And that, of course, created a bit of a different

 4     situation because it was uncertain what would happen.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Right.  I'm not just saying that if there had been

 6     a communication with the Chamber on that, we were not copied on that.  So

 7     we've been unaware --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  It is -- let me be, then, very candid on that.

 9             One of our legal officers has informed the Chamber that, as far

10     as he knew, that there had been no -- no -- as you say, no proofing

11     session and that the witness had not communicated.  That's all the

12     information the Chamber received.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if could I add.  In fact, we

14     made it clear in the application for the subpoena that as to what really

15     occurred when we attempted to proof the witness, and --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That, of course, is not an answer as to what

17     happened the last two days but it might not have come as a surprise.

18             MR. MISETIC:  I was unaware.  That's fine, Your Honour.  I just

19     wanted to say that for that reason I do need a couple of hours tonight

20     and if we have anything at all, I will e-mail it around to everybody.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Then, Ms. Mahindaratne.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if we could just -- since the

23     witness has confirmed the statement, that is, not the recording, but with

24     regard to the -- could I move admission of the statement into evidence?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And the statement and the interview?

Page 6086

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  At this stage since this is an issue about it,

 2     the interview we could deal with tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  No, as a matter of fact whether we decide is another

 4     matter but, of course, it would be good to know whether it is tendered

 5     and I understood that you want to tender it.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So then, both are tendered and then Mr. Registrar

 8     could you please assign provisional numbers.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the first document was 65 ter 05217

10     and that becomes Exhibit number P552, marked for identification.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And the other one was?

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the other document will be marked

13     for identification as Exhibit number P553.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and they keep the status of marked for

15     identification.

16             Mr. Janic, at this moment, I'd like to instruct you that you

17     should not speak with anyone about the testimony you are about to give,

18     because there's not much yet that you have given, and we adjourn for the

19     day.  And we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning, the 9th of July, at

20     9.00, in this Courtroom II.

21             I apologise, not only for the other Chamber, I have not sought

22     your consent to continue but it was really very urgent to have this part

23     done.  I apologise, for interpreters, for not having consulting them and

24     for the transcriber and, of course, all others who are assisting us in

25     this courtroom, and I will personally see that I'll take care that you

Page 6087

 1     get at least the rest you deserve.  Again, apologies, and I will not do

 2     it again.

 3             We stand adjourned until tomorrow.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.13 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th of July,

 6                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.