Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6187

 1                           Thursday, 10 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             I first have to correct something for the record.  When the

13     Chamber decided to admit the two statements, that is one statement and

14     the video-recorded interview, I had forgotten to add to that that the

15     video is admitted as well, strictly not under 92 ter because 92 ter

16     doesn't talk about videos, but it is, of course, so closely related to

17     the -- to the transcript of the interview that it is admitted under the

18     same exhibit number, which, therefore, comprises both video and

19     transcript of the interview.

20             Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to proceed?

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please do so.

23             And I would like to remind you, Witness, Mr. Janic, that you are

24     still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of

25     your testimony.  That is that you will speak the truth, whole truth and

Page 6188

 1     nothing but the truth.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I just wish to clarify, can

 4     I -- may I seek an extension of time for examination.  I seek Court's

 5     indulgence.  I had made a mistake in terms of estimating time and I would

 6     be grateful if I could be granted an extension of time, at least during

 7     the first session.  I will try my best to finish within an hour --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would try to finish within an hour.  If it

 9     would be a little bit more than that, the Chamber would not immediately

10     stop you.

11             Please proceed.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             Mr. Registrar, can I call document 5222, please, 5222.

14                           WITNESS:  ZDRAVKO JANIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne: [Continued]

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Janic, can you explain -- you can see the document, it

18     is already up on the screen.  This is an order issued by Mr. Markac dated

19     6 December 1999 to Lucko unit to send weapons for repairs and to be

20     written off.

21             Can you explain to us when weapons are written off, what happens

22     to them?  Are they destroyed or are they kept in some place?

23        A.   I can explain.  Since at the moment I am the commander of a

24     Special Unit in the MUP and I operate in the same manner, which is

25     whenever a weapon is broken or is there is a suspicion that it's broken

Page 6189

 1     or if something turns up during regular annual checkups, there are two

 2     regular procedures as follows.

 3             The broken weapons, malfunctioning weapons are being repaired, if

 4     possible, and there is a commission in the MUP which deals with the

 5     writing off of these kind of weapons, and these are destroyed.  These are

 6     not kept in storage.  So that same procedure was applied then and it is

 7     still applied.  So the weapons that is reparable is repaired.  For

 8     instance, if it has a rusty or broken barrel this weapon is unusable and

 9     is written off, once a sufficient quantity is collected and it has to be

10     done under the surveillance of a commission.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber doesn't have an English version of

12     this document on its screen.  Is there any explanation for that?  So my

13     B/C/S is still not good enough to ...

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Well, Mr. President, I was under the

15     impression that there was an English copy uploaded to e-court.  In fact,

16     I looked at it last night.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, there is currently no English

18     translation in the e-court system.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have a hard copy somewhere nearby?

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something.  All other

22     services with the Ministry of Interior write off malfunctioning weapons.

23     This does not apply only to the special police.  This applies to the

24     crime police and every other departments in the MUP.  They carry out

25     technical inspections, repairs, and the writing off of unusable weapons,

Page 6190

 1     and we are now part of that system, and we were part of that system

 2     before.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, we can see the English

 4     translation on e-court on our system here.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's not spend too much time on --

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I tender this document into

 7     evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections.

 9             No objections.  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P578.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my understanding, Ms. Mahindaratne, this is

12     to -- to give, to demonstrate how it works, the system, is that how?

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I have last night

14     tendered other related documents and we will make the required submission

15     later on to Trial Chamber.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

17             Then, Mr. Registrar, you have said it was 578.

18             P578 is admitted into evidence.

19             Please proceed.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 770,

21     please.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Janic, permit me to take you to paragraph 65 of your

23     statement, the 2004 statement.

24             Now n paragraph 65, you say that you were in charge of a search

25     operation that was in the area of Promina mountain on 26th August, 1995.

Page 6191

 1     And you described that operation.  And then you say that the Lucko unit

 2     was also involved in that operation and Mr. Celic was in command of that

 3     operation, too, on the 26th.  And you say:  "I remember that almost as

 4     the operation began I was informed by a member of the Lucko unit that

 5     they had been in conflict with two enemy soldiers and that they had

 6     opened fire.  I could hear explosions and shots fired."

 7             And at paragraph 66 you say:  "After receiving this information I

 8     could see that something in a nearby village was on fire.  I was also

 9     informed that the hand rocket launchers were used and as this village was

10     near the railroad that the freedom train with President Tudjman and

11     various diplomats was expected to travel and I contacted Mladen Markac

12     who was in Knin at the time.  I asked him to come and assist the

13     situation himself.  He arrived at the finish of the operation and I told

14     him that there had been a conflict and that the two terrorists had got

15     away.  He asked how the houses -- "

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the speaker slow down.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry.

18             "He asked how the houses caught fire and was not pleased that it

19     had happened.  He said that there would be an investigation into the

20     burning of the houses.  He was told by the Lucko unit that it was the use

21     of the rocket launcher that caused the fire in the houses."

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Janic, when you received that information from Mr. Celic

23     that there was an incident, did you go into this village where the houses

24     were on fire?

25        A.   Not immediately.  I only went later.

Page 6192

 1        Q.   And was that the Ramljane village.  Perhaps I mispronounced that

 2     name.  You know the village I'm referring to?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And when you visited later on how many houses had been burned?

 5     What did you observe?

 6        A.   A few farming buildings were burned and perhaps one house.  I

 7     didn't pass through the entire village.  I just went as far as the entry

 8     to the village.

 9        Q.   And you said immediately when you received the information you

10     called on Mr. Markac and Mr. Markac arrived there.  Now, did Mr. Markac

11     go to Ramljane village?  You say that he was annoyed by the houses on

12     fire.  Did he go to the village and see the houses on fire?  Or, I'm

13     sorry, you said farm -- a few farming buildings and a house.

14        A.   Yes.  Mr. Markac came quite a bit later, so he didn't go into the

15     village.  All the information he had had about what happened there was

16     received from me.

17             I must say that I have made a striking mistake here.  His driver

18     told me that he was in Gracac but he was rather --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters will kindly ask the speaker to

20     slow down, please.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You really have to speak at a more moderate speed

22     because the interpreters cannot follow you.

23             If you would restart.  You said Mr. Markac came quite a bit later

24     so he didn't go into the village and all the information he had about

25     what happened there was received from me.  And then you said something

Page 6193

 1     about a mistake.  Could you please resume there.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that Mr. Markac was in

 3     Knin at the time.  However he was in Gracac and that is why he was late,

 4     and couldn't make it in time.  He only arrived after the action of that

 5     day was completed.  The meeting that I convened at the end of the action

 6     with the people who took part in it and given that this armed clash had

 7     taken place, I felt the need, as the commander of the action, and since

 8     the train of freedom was due to arrive and this is the area very close to

 9     the railway track, I want the general to see for himself what it was all

10     about because there was no doubt there was a conflict, a fighting, and

11     that the burning was undoubtedly caused by the use of the hand-held

12     rocket launchers.  Therefore I had no doubts about the reports received

13     from the commanders.

14             However due to the delicate situation in the area I wanted him to

15     become convinced about what I myself had become convinced.  When I said

16     that the general was not satisfied, of course he was not satisfied

17     because this could have caused certain problems while the train of

18     freedom were to pass through.

19             At this meeting with the people who had taken part in the action,

20     he expressed his dissatisfaction and said that he would conduct certain

21     inquiries an investigations in order to establish whether actually what

22     happened corresponds to what had been said and described.

23             Later on, before departure, or before we went other own separate

24     ways the general trusted me with verifying all this information and to

25     interview the commander of the ATJ Lucko and other commanders in order to

Page 6194

 1     verify whether the reports were true.

 2             After these interviews, I established that this is exactly what

 3     had happened.

 4        Q.   Mr. Janic, if I could just -- it's been a while and let me, if I

 5     could, just take you to your interview notes.  And that's the third

 6     section of P553, and I'm referring to transcripts 5309, page 43.

 7             And you say, you refer to the incident and I don't want to waste

 8     time reading all that.  You say around line -- in the middle of -- around

 9     line 14:  "And as I knew that General Markac was in the area at the time,

10     just to make sure that there would be no problems because of the freedom

11     train, I did not doubt in -- at any moment that the men had abused their

12     power or abused the force or anything like that.  I just called General

13     Markac who was in the area and I knew that he could be there in some 20

14     minutes' time to go together and see what had happened just to make sure

15     that there would be no problem for the freedom train the next day.  And

16     as my superior was in the area at the time, General Markac, I thought it

17     would be prudent to call him."

18             Then the question is asked:  "Do you know where Mr. Markac was in

19     the area at that particular time?"

20              "No I do not know and I believe Mr. Markac subsequently came to

21     the scene or to the area.  Yes, of course, after I called him to come."

22             Then you go on to say:  I think the reason why he was in the area

23     there was like a little stage set up where Tudjman took pictures with all

24     the generals.  You know he came out of the train.  He went there.

25             So Mr. Janic, I'm just trying to, perhaps if you have forgotten

Page 6195

 1     since it is a while, you indicated that at the time you heard Mr. Markac

 2     was there Zagreb from his driver.  You said it in 2004 and now in 2005

 3     that Mr. Markac was in the area and you called on him and when he came,

 4     you knew he could come within 20 minutes.

 5             Which of it is correct?

 6        A.   You didn't understand me.  I did not say now that he was Zagreb,

 7     but, rather that he was in Gracac.  I had thought at the time that he was

 8     in Knin, and in that case he couldn't have made in 20 minutes.  His

 9     driver told me that he been in Gracac.  Therefore, he was not in Zagreb

10     but in Gracac.  This is a little bit wider area, but he was not in Knin;

11     he was in Gracac.

12        Q.   I'm sorry, I made the mistake by saying Zagreb instead of Gracac.

13        A.   The fact is that the freedom train and its main station was in

14     Knin and all the generals, after the victorious operation received

15     certain honours from the president, and all the lower-ranking officers

16     who were directing the operation were there for the celebration.  That

17     was the reason for the arrival of all the generals involved in

18     Operation Storm, to take part in the celebration.

19        Q.   Mr. Janic, you go on to say at page 46 that -- you were asked the

20     question:  "Were you present when Mr. Markac addressed the members of the

21     Lucko unit?"

22             "Yes."

23             So which member did Mr. Markac address in the Lucko unit?  Was it

24     the commander, Mr. Celic, who was a -- commanding the operation or any

25     particular special instructor or any particular member?  And --

Page 6196

 1        A.   It was a small unit, numbering between 30 and 35 men and he

 2     addressed all of them.  But other members of other units were there as

 3     well.  It was an area where the vehicles were, and all the people who had

 4     been involved in the action were there.

 5        Q.   Now, in paragraph 50 you were asked this question:  "Do you

 6     recall seeing Mr. Markac having a, like, almost face-to-face argument

 7     with Mr. Drljo?"

 8             Your response is:  "I mean, I did, I did hear, you know, I can't

 9     say what was said between them.  I mean, I could hear Drljo mumbling

10     something but I was not close enough to hear what was said between them."

11             And you're smiling, Mr. Janic, when I'm reading that.  Did you

12     recall that incident?

13        A.   I remember in the same way as I described it in 2005.  I saw them

14     exchanging something, but I couldn't catch their words.

15        Q.   Now, was it a hostile exchange?  Did it seem to you that the

16     reason Mr. Markac was addressing Mr. Drljo in that fashion was because of

17     the incident of the -- the buildings catching fire in Ramljane?

18        A.   I cannot give you an answer because I didn't hear what they were

19     talking about.

20        Q.   Do you know, Mr. Janic, any time after this incident, if

21     Mr. Drljo or any member of the Lucko unit were investigated about that

22     incident or if they -- if any disciplinary measures were meted out

23     against any member of the Lucko unit?

24        A.   Look, everything that happened on the 26th, I, as a commander,

25     after conducting talks with platoon commanders and unit commanders

Page 6197

 1     established that there was no overstepping of authority and I did not

 2     treat it as any kind of incident.  Therefore, there was no reason for

 3     imposing or launching any disciplinary proceedings.

 4        Q.   Was a report submitted to you by Mr. Celic in relation to this

 5     incident?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   When you -- when you visited the archives, Mr. Janic, did you see

 8     Mr. Celic's report on -- of the 26th?

 9        A.   I think I did.  I think I did.  It was a written report,

10     identical to an oral report, and based on his written report I compiled

11     my own report, which was sent to the staff in Gracac as was the normal

12     procedure, and that would be it.

13        Q.   Now you say you sent your report to the staff in Gracac, as was

14     the normal procedure.  At paragraph 67 of your 2004 statement, Mr. Janic,

15     if I could take you to it, that's P522.  You say that you could not find

16     your report on that operation when you checked the archives or any other

17     report apart from one that General Markac submitted to the Main Staff.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call up document number

19     1856, please.

20             I'm sorry, Mr. President, I could not tender the previous

21     document into evidence, which was 770, but I will get to that after -- I

22     don't want to create confusion.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's appreciated.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

Page 6198

 1        Q.   Mr. Janic, is this the document that you saw in the archives

 2     regarding this operation?  This is Mr. Markac's report.

 3        A.   I think so.  Could you please pull it up a little so I can see

 4     the bottom of the page.  Or perhaps I can move it myself, but I'm just

 5     not quite sure how.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  If we could go to the page 2, please.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, can you move to page 2, please.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] Yes, the portion in relation to

 9     the Lucko ATJ, there was an armed clash that erupted and that is

10     identical to my report, the report that I submitted.

11             I see nothing about this that is questionable.  This was a

12     perfectly regular thing.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move to tender this document

14     into evidence.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no objection.

17             Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P579.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  P579 is admitted into evidence.

20             Apart from the previous document not being tendered or not being

21     tendered yet, the relevance is not entirely clear to me at this moment.

22     If you could please revisit that at a later stage.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I will call this up right now, Mr. President,

24     while we're on this topic.

25             Mr. Registrar, can I call back up document number 770.

Page 6199

 1        Q.   Mr. Janic, this is information sent by Mr. Markac to -- it says

 2     Split Military District and Knin forward command post, regarding

 3     activities which is to be carried out on 26th August 1995.

 4             Now, does this refer to the operation which was -- which we just

 5     spoke about, that is the operation in -- near the Promina mountains.

 6     That refers to the Ramljane village which we just discussed about.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And can you explain, do you know what the reference to the Knin

 9     IZM is?

10        A.   I'm sorry, I don't think I can help with you that.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just move this document

12     into evidence, please.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objection.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number P580, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.  P580 is admitted into

17     evidence.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

19        Q.   Mr. Janic, just one question.  Before every operation, was there

20     an exchange of information such as this between the special police and

21     the relevant HV commands in the area and any other authorities?  Are you

22     able to offer an answer to that?

23        A.   Yes, by all means.

24             We were the special police.  We always planned our searches and

25     our actions based on intelligence, based on intelligence gathered by the

Page 6200

 1     regular police, the districts, the district areas, the recruitment areas

 2     based on their requests based on any information that was available to

 3     them.  It was important to go out, crush any groups of enemy soldiers.

 4     We needed to know where minefields were or any heavy weaponry that was

 5     left behind.  We would then use this information and this information was

 6     pooled by internal control in the special police.  They did intelligence

 7     analysis and they did security assessments.  It was based on those

 8     security assessments by internal control that we planned our activities.

 9             So that is how the system worked.  There was nothing random about

10     any of our actions.

11             We used those serious and thorough security assessments, we used

12     all the intelligence that was available to us on certain security aspects

13     that we covered all these areas and launched our actions.

14        Q.   Thank you for that.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number

16     1050, please.  And this is actually, Mr. President, a document I have

17     submitted through the bar table motion, but it is on the face of it a

18     little difficult to understand so I just require an explanation from the

19     witness.

20        Q.   Mr. Janic, can you just identify, I merely want you to identify

21     if -- or confirm if in fact this is a report on the mop-up operation of

22     26th August 1995.  And it's a handwritten very informal report, issued by

23     the Krapina, and I beg your pardon for the mispronunciation, Zagorje

24     Z-a-g-o-r-j-e, is that correct?  Because we are unable to identify that

25     on the face of this document, but you probably will be able to do that.

Page 6201

 1        A.   Could you please allow me to look at the bottom, or the end of

 2     this report, rather.

 3             Yes.  That would be that.

 4        Q.   That is one of the units that participated on 26th operation in

 5     the Promina mountain area?

 6        A.   That's right.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to tender this document

 8     into evidence, and just for record keeping to indicate that this document

 9     has been included in the bar table motion last night so to -- there won't

10     be duplicity.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections, admitted into evidence, but, of

12     course we first need a number.

13             Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P581.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  P581 is admitted into evidence.

16             Please proceed.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number

18     3506, please.

19        Q.   While the document comes up, Mr. Janic, were you questioned about

20     the Grubori incident by the Ministry of Interior police bureau in 2004,

21     in the course of an investigation initiated by the county prosecutor of

22     Sibenik in 2001.  Do you recall that?

23        A.   Well, I don't know who initiated that, but, yes, it was in 2004

24     that I was questioned by the crime police investigation.

25             The office in which I was interviewed was actually just a stone's

Page 6202

 1     throw away from my own office in which I normally work.  In answer to

 2     your question, yes, I was questioned.

 3        Q.   And in the course of that interview did they take down notes of

 4     your interview -- let me just -- to make it short.  If you could look at

 5     the document in front of you and let us know if in fact it is an accurate

 6     note of your interview?

 7        A.   I should probably read this in its entirety.  But one thing I can

 8     tell you, I've never seen it before.

 9        Q.   No, I didn't think so.  That's why I would like to you take a

10     look at it and tell us whether it is an accurate note.

11        A.   Could you please pull the document up a little?

12             We can move on.

13             And on.

14        Q.   I think we need to move to the next page.  Yeah.

15        A.   I've read it.

16        Q.   And do you agree that it is an accurate note of your interview

17     with the Ministry of Interior crime police, in 2004?

18        A.   Well, I was interviewed and this note was drawn up, but the

19     interview was not recorded, and no minutes were taken.  So this is an

20     interpretation of the interview that the police officer did following the

21     interview.  Therefore, it is not perfectly accurate.  This was never

22     submitted to me for approval or signature, this Official Note.  In

23     principle, the note changes nothing with respect to my previous and later

24     statements but not all of the details are perfectly accurate and the

25     context of some of this information is not exactly what I shared with the

Page 6203

 1     police officer during this interview at this time.  I should assume that

 2     he drew this up based on his memory of our interview and that might be

 3     the reason that it is not perfectly accurate.

 4             The other thing I wish to say is this.  I'm still with the

 5     police.  Therefore, I can say this:  Official Notes such as this one

 6     cannot be used in court proceedings.  This is not admitted into evidence,

 7     a document like this, in our own system and Official Notes such as these

 8     cannot be used as exhibits.  It is just one thing I wanted to say.  I'm

 9     not sure how you deal with this.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You're looking at me, Mr. Janic.  This Tribunal is

11     not bound by any domestic system as far as the law of evidence is

12     concerned and how we're going to deal with it.  I appreciate your

13     interest in criminal procedure.  At the same time, if you would focus on

14     the questions, that would also be appreciated.

15             Please proceed.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to tender this document

17     into evidence.

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  I would have an objection on this, Your Honour.

19     What is the basis for this document be taken into the evidence because

20     this is not the statement of the witness which is sitting here in front

21     of us.  This is an note made by the police officer in Zagreb police

22     administration.  So I think the proper basis would be to discuss this

23     document with the police officer who is the author of it.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the witness has confirmed that

25     this is a note based on an interview between himself and a police officer

Page 6204

 1     and with regard to the inaccuracies, the Defence has the -- can explore

 2     the inaccuracies in the course of cross-examination.  I have established

 3     a basis for the admission of the document.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I did not --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  I know, I rise to my feet just because of the

 6     general nature and the impact this would have on other statements, but I

 7     would note that the Office of the Prosecutor has witness statements that

 8     it has taken by its investigators which we've attempted to tender which

 9     have been denied admission, so I'm not sure if the witness has not made

10     the 92 ter attestations pursuant to Rule 92 ter that this is a statement

11     of his and I'm not sure what the difference is between a statement taken

12     by a police officer in Croatia and then a statement taken by an OTP

13     investigator.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the difference is that if a statement is taken

15     by an OTP investigator that the statement is taken for the purpose of

16     investigations and prosecution before this Tribunal.  If you would like

17     at the case law, then you will see that sometimes contemporaneous or at

18     least all the statements that not taken for the purposes of one of the

19     parties in the trials before this Tribunal are dealt with in a different

20     way than statements taken specifically to serve as -- as evidence in this

21     Tribunal.

22             MR. MISETIC:  If I may just follow up with that, Your Honour, for

23     future guidance.  If statements are taken by the Croatian police or

24     Croatian prosecutors pursuant to their criminal cases or notes, I should

25     say, those statements --

Page 6205

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you look -- if you compare for example, and that

 2     is one of the examples that comes immediately into my mind, in the

 3     Haradinaj case quite a lot of statements were taken from suspects and

 4     witnesses at the time approximately when the events had happened, not for

 5     the purpose of being used in this Tribunal but for different purposes,

 6     those were admitted into evidence, not under Rule 92 ter, and of course

 7     the Chamber will consider, I mean we're not in a hurry with it at this

 8     moment, but at least there is an -- a difference.

 9             Another matter is what weight to give, whether the Chamber would

10     accept the statement as -- as solid evidence for the truth of its

11     content.  That is of course a different matter.  At least this document,

12     so apart from the decision of the Chamber will be, demonstrates also in

13     connection with the testimony of this witness that there was an

14     interview.  Apparently there was an investigation and that at least a

15     report was made of that interview.  I mean, to that extent the statement

16     would have some probative value, not necessarily about what happened in

17     1995 but at least what happened later on.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.  I understand Your Honour and I don't

19     want to take more time I just wish to --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  This is not a decision but I just wanted to point

21     out the difference between statements taken for the specific purpose of

22     being used as evidence before this Tribunal and statements taken in a

23     different context.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Just one minor point, Your Honour, and I understand

25     the reasoning there.  However, I will look and see if there is any case

Page 6206

 1     law on this, but statements taken for these proceedings by the opposing

 2     party to me would tend to be a different situation than for example a

 3     Gotovina defense witness statement and then us tendering it.

 4             But let's have that discussion I guess for a later date.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  But I understand the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I do not know who's opposing party to whom in this

 8     context, but we'll consider it.

 9             And, Mr. Tieger, perhaps it is good if we have Mr. Mikulicic to

10     say first.

11             Mr. Mikulicic.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13             I will just add one little remark on it.  This is anonymous note.

14     We don't know who the author is.  There is no sign, there is no name on

15     it.  We don't know how could we check on the note whether this is

16     accurate or no.

17             This is just a remark as it relates to the credibility of the

18     document.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What we usually do is under those circumstances is

20     to seek further information from the party presenting the evidence to

21     explain where it originates from and then of course with that knowledge

22     we can further consider whether that is sufficient information, whether

23     it is accepted by the Defence or whether that needs further exploration.

24             Mr. Tieger, you were on were your feet.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Just quickly, Your Honour, because Mr. Misetic rose

Page 6207

 1     on a matter of a general nature and I just wanted to make sure that a

 2     specific instance wasn't expanded into and across the board principle of

 3     any type.  So with reference to previous attempted submissions made by

 4     Mr. Misetic, I don't recall, in fact, a precisely analogous situation

 5     where a statement made by the particular witness on the stand was

 6     presented to him.

 7             So I just --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You have some difficulties there identifying

 9     what Mr. Misetic was exactly referring to.

10             MR. TIEGER:  So it is not necessarily simply the nature of the

11     document that is only relevant issue in determining admissibility at any

12     point; it's also the context.  And that is all I wanted to say.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. MISETIC:  My point is that he is on the stand and because he

15     is on the stand we have rules under Rule 92 ter on how those statement

16     would say be admitted which is why I then drew the broader analogy

17     concerning the reliability of whatever statements are taken outside the

18     context of a specific case.  Clearly 92 ter has not been met here so

19     we're obviously applying a different set of rules, and then I was just

20     saying that if we could define a little bit which statements get in and

21     which statements don't.  My general point was that I don't see in terms

22     of the probative value much difference between a statement taken by the

23     Croatian police and a statement taken by the Prosecution but tendered by

24     the Defence, but, like I said, this is more of a general topic and

25     perhaps we can have it at a later date.

Page 6208

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  As matters stand now we'll invite

 2     Mr. Registrar to mark this document for identification.

 3             Ms. Mahindaratne, you have heard that Mr. Mikulicic has some

 4     difficulties with the origin of this document.  If there's anything that

 5     could be submitted in that respect the Chamber will hear from you.

 6             And, Mr. Registrar, this will be.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this would be exhibit number P582

 8     marked for identification.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that will be the status for the time being.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, and we will submit evidence in

11     due course of it's -- regarding the authenticity -- the origin, yeah.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

14        Q.   Before you just move on to the next topic while we're still on

15     your statement, Mr. Janic, if I could take you to paragraph 70 of your

16     statement, 2004.

17             You refer to check-points there.  And you say that:  "After 8th

18     August 1995, when the main Operation Storm was over, there were

19     fundamental police check-points but we were not stopped as we were on

20     official business and would not really have the authority to stop us.  I

21     do not recall any military check-points, although there were military

22     police check-points, but they had no authority to stop us.  The military

23     police check-points s were apart from the fundamental police

24     check-points.  These check-points usually consisted of a car or two

25     parked by the side of the road.  The purpose of these check-points was

Page 6209

 1     for the fundamental police to check civilians' identification and to

 2     check if they had any weapons or any looted items.  And the military

 3     police check-point was to check military personnel."

 4             Now my question was if the fundamental police did not have

 5     authority to stop the special police, who had the authority to stop the

 6     special police if members of the special police were observed committing

 7     crimes?  And I'm not suggesting to you now to contemplate on whether they

 8     committed crimes or not.  My question is who would have the authority to

 9     stop them if they were observed committing crimes?

10        A.   Well, if you look at paragraph 70, this is where I offer my

11     somewhat liberal interpretation.  Of course something happens, someone

12     stops someone else at any sort of check-point, regular or special police,

13     even special policemen would have to stop.  But as a rule they didn't

14     stop us.

15        Q.   Mr. Janic, please, I'm running out of time.  If could you just

16     answer as to who, which force had the authority to stop special police

17     and perhaps arrest them if they were observed committing crimes.  That's

18     my question to you, and if could you try to answer that as briefly as

19     possible.

20        A.   I was talking about this specific case.  I didn't understand you

21     to be asking me a general question.

22             If there is a special police member who commits a crime all the

23     general regulations are applied as to all other citizens and then it is

24     the regular police that would have the authority to arrest them.  The

25     procedure would probably be to inform his superior commander and then his

Page 6210

 1     superior commander would help and the local police would help arrest that

 2     person.  It would be the local police station that would have the

 3     responsibility under the law to arrest this person who possibly committed

 4     a crime in the line of duty.  That's what the law says, as long as a

 5     crime was committed, of course.  What I was talking about is being pulled

 6     over while driving down a road at some check-point or other, that is what

 7     I was referring to.  But if there is a crime that occurs that the same

 8     laws apply to special police members as they do to any other citizen, and

 9     the regular police has the responsibility to take the same kind of action

10     or the same kind of steps with respect to anyone.

11             In paragraph 70 what I was referring to was traffic checks.  They

12     would never stop us.  We were in special police vehicles and they were

13     the regular police.  You hardly ever see police stopping another police

14     vehicle.  It wasn't done back then and I don't think it is even done

15     nowadays in 2008.  It is an extremely rare occurrence.

16        Q.   And did you ever see -- you say that the military police

17     check-points was to check military personnel.  Did you see military

18     personnel being checked at military check-points or being stopped at

19     military check-points?

20        A.   Well, you see, following the 8th or the 9th of August, the army

21     was no longer deployed in those areas and wasn't moving in those areas.

22     They were either in barracks or moving towards the Bosnia-Herzegovina

23     border.  As of that date, I did not see any of the Croatian army units

24     moving along that area.  The MPs were there, but I personally never saw

25     them stop anyone.

Page 6211

 1        Q.   Thank you for that.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number

 3     1665, please.

 4        Q.   Mr. Janic, while the document comes up I draw your attention to

 5     paragraph 33 of your 2004 statement where you refer to the liberation of

 6     Gracac.

 7             Now, this is a report going from Mr. Markac to the chief of

 8     Croatian army Main Staff, General Cervenko.  Is this an accurate report,

 9     because you were commanding this line of special police that liberated

10     Gracac?

11        A.   Well, that is not quite true what you suggest.  I was the

12     commander of one of the axes during that operation.  I was responsible

13     for some segments of the special police.  The report, however, is

14     accurate.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move to tender this document

16     into evidence.

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number P583, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P583 is admitted into evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Now, in paragraph 47 -- I'm sorry,

23     Mr. Registrar, may I call document number 1664, please.

24             Now, Mr. Janic, in paragraph 47 you refer to setting up the

25     special police headquarters in Gracac once it was liberated.  Now, before

Page 6212

 1     I ask you the question, could you just take a look at this document and

 2     tell us if this is an accurate report?  It reports that on 5th

 3     August 1995 by 1130 hours the special police units took complete control

 4     over Gracac, and by 1200 hours they have taken control of the Celavac and

 5     Prezid areas.

 6             Is that a correct -- accurate report?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move to tender this document

 9     into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P584.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P584 is admitted into evidence.

14             Please proceed.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

16        Q.   Now, once the special police headquarters was set up in Gracac on

17     5th August, till when did the special police operate from Gracac from

18     that headquarters?

19        A.   I cannot remember now exactly.  There are some documents bearing

20     some date.  I saw these dates.  I think it was in October or November,

21     but I cannot be sure.  After perusing through the documents before my

22     arrival here, I remember seeing the exact date but cannot remember it

23     now.

24        Q.   In paragraph 75, you say that you saw -- I'll read it just the

25     way it is recorded:  "As far as General Markac was concerned I would see

Page 6213

 1     him fairly regularly, both during and after the operation.  I would see

 2     Mr. Sacic as often as I would see General Markac."

 3             Now, did you see Mr. Markac and Mr. Sacic at the headquarters in

 4     Gracac?  Where did you see them regularly?

 5        A.   In the headquarters in Gracac.  Of course they were not there

 6     everyday but they were often there.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move to -- I don't know

 8     whether document has been given a number.  I move to tender this document

 9     into evidence.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, isn't this the same document as

14     was assigned number P584?

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And then it has been admitted into evidence already.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 25, line 23.  Please proceed.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.  I missed that.

20             Mr. Registrar, may I call Exhibit number P325, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Janic, in paragraph 28, you describe the special police

22     uniforms and you say:  "Our uniform at the time during the whole of

23     Operation Storm was light green plain uniform with green helmets.  I

24     believe that we wore yellow ribbons on our shoulders during the operation

25     for identification purposes."

Page 6214

 1             Can you identify the photograph -- the people in these pictures,

 2     are they members of the special police?  Based on the uniform can you say

 3     that?

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And if we could move to perhaps the next

 5     photograph, I think it is a more clearer picture, if Mr. Janic wants to

 6     look at it.

 7        Q.   You can see the insignia clearer on this picture.

 8        A.   Yes.  Judging by the insignia on their uniforms, these are the

 9     insignia of military police.

10        Q.   I'm sorry.  You said military police.  Did you refer to special

11     police.  Was it --

12        A.   No, no, I said special police.  It may have been mistranslated.

13        Q.   And there was evidence led and this in fact to the effect that

14     the units or commander of this unit identified the unit as the Delta unit

15     and this was on 8th August in Gracac.  Do you know, in fact, if the Delta

16     unit was in Gracac on that day?

17        A.   I think it was, but I would have to look it up in the documents.

18     I think that in Gracac on the 5th of August, as far as I can remember, a

19     group from this unit ran into a Serbian ambush and one of the members of

20     the unit was killed.  That was immediately after they entered the town.

21     While they were entering the town there was no fighting going on, because

22     the Serbian forces had actually fled.  However, there were some Serbian

23     forces that were staying behind on a truck and they opened fire from

24     their truck and that is how one of our members was killed.

25        Q.   Thank you for that.

Page 6215

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, could I ask one further question

 2     on the colour of the ribbons.

 3             Please correct me when I'm wrong, but it's my recollection that

 4     in one of the previous documents we saw in which there was planning of an

 5     operation, I think it was for the 26th of August, that other colours of

 6     ribbons or arm-bands were used for identification purposes.

 7             Is my recollection correct, which would mean that not only yellow

 8     ribbons but other circumstances, other arm-bands or ribbons or whatever

 9     of a different colour would be used in order to identify the special

10     police forces?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain that to you.  We used

12     yellow ribbons during Operation Storm but we as a unit also had other

13     coloured ribbons in our storage house for other operations.  I suppose

14     that these ribbons cannot last for 20 days.  These yellow ribbons were

15     used specifically for Operation Storm.  Before that, there was

16     Operation Flash when I think red ribbons were used, so these changes were

17     introduced for tactical reasons.  At one point one type of ribbons were

18     replaced by another ribbons in a different colour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if I could assist, I think your

21     reference was to a document which gave information about a mop-up

22     operation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes it is.  My problem is that if once it is upload

24     so that we can see it, it takes a while before we can have access to it,

25     if it is admitted into evidence.  But I think that that was the planning

Page 6216

 1     letter dated 25th of August for the operations on the 26th, as far as I

 2     remember.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  If anyone would have the exhibit number then we

 5     could put it on the record just for the convenience of those who would

 6     later consult this transcript.  But, otherwise, please proceed,

 7     Ms. Mahindaratne.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It's P579, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I beg your pardon, it is P580, not 579.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then thank you for that number as well,

12     Ms. Mahindaratne.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

14        Q.   Now one other question on this, Mr. Janic.  I don't have much

15     time.  Do you remember what colour ribbons were worn by the special

16     police units in the course of the operation in Plavno on 25th August?

17        A.   I don't remember.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number

19     2760, please.

20        Q.   Mr. Janic, while the document comes up, I refer you to

21     paragraph 34 of your statement where you describe the liberation of

22     Donji Lapac.  Is this -- this is a report going from Mr. Markac to

23     General Cervenko regarding the capture of Donji Lapac.  Is this an

24     accurate report?

25        A.   Can we have it scrolled up a bit, please.

Page 6217

 1             Can I see the end, please.

 2             Roughly speaking, it would be accurate.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move to tendere this document

 4     into evidence.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 6             Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P585.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P585 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

11        Q.   Mr. Janic, drawing you to paragraph 37 of your statement you say:

12     "When I entered Donji Lapac I saw about -- " further down.  I don't want

13     to waste time reading the entire paragraph.

14             You say:  "When we entered the town it was being shelled but by

15     the afternoon the shelling had stopped."

16             In paragraph 36 you say:  "When I reached Donji Lapac, some of

17     the buildings were burning in the centre, including the police station.

18     I heard that was done by the artillery fire.  I did not go through the

19     whole town but what I saw was not too badly damaged."

20             Now, in relation to that, let me take to you what you have said

21     at the interview, and that would be P553, the second set.  That is 5308,

22     page 11.  There you're referring to the liberation of Donji Lapac.  You

23     say -- and you were asked the question:  "And did you use again -- did

24     you again use artillery support?"  This is in relation to Donji Lapac.

25             You say:  "No.  There was no need because there was no

Page 6218

 1     resistance, there was no conflict.  We did not encounter anybody so there

 2     was no need."

 3             Again, you go on to express, you say:  "There was no need for a

 4     sort of prior artillery fire that would come before us because the

 5     situation was such that the enemy was running away.  They were -- the

 6     atmosphere was such that basically we felt that we didn't need any prior

 7     artillery before we moved."

 8             And then there is an discussion as to what other people have said

 9     about this.

10             Then you -- in paragraph 13, line 14 you say:  "Truly, there was

11     no need for it and that is why I did not use this possibility."

12             Now, can you then explain as to now you as the commander of that

13     particular axis of attack did not consider artillery support necessary

14     for that.  Do you know why it was used, why in fact the town was shelled?

15        A.   I gave my statement from the position of the role that I had at

16     the time, which is a commander of the main axis.  On my axis there was no

17     resistance and no fighting and I did not use artillery support because I

18     did not need it.  I don't know about the other axis.  I know that the

19     army of the district of Gospic covering the whole of Lapac was there, but

20     I don't know if they used artillery or not.  My report refers only to my

21     line of attack and my zone, in which I personally did not use any

22     artillery support for either in-depth targets or any strongholds directly

23     facing my forces.  There was no need for that because everybody had fled.

24     However, whether at the beginning of the operation they were in the area

25     of Lapac around the town, I cannot say.  I am talking about the situation

Page 6219

 1     in which I was and I'm talking about this from my own position.  I cannot

 2     tell anything about other axes from the special police nor about what the

 3     army did with regard to the use of artillery.

 4        Q.   And your axis went through the town of Donji Lapac, went through

 5     Donji Lapac, wasn't it?

 6        A.   No, no.  My axis was called the main one.  However, it stretched

 7     somehow along the shortcut but it also traversed the highest hills, and

 8     the final objective was to reach the roads around Donji Lapac and the

 9     town itself.  Therefore, we were the last to reach the town, and there

10     was no fighting for the town, so we virtually walked into it.  There was

11     no fighting either in the town or around town at the time when I arrived

12     there.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us at what time you did arrive?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.  Around 12.00 or

15     1.00.  Maybe one can find this information in the reports.  But I think

16     it was around 1.00 or 2.00.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number --

20     I'm sorry, can I tender this document into evidence.  I don't know if

21     that was done.  I may have missed out.  There was -- the document that

22     was on the screen, that was?

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, this was admitted as P585.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call document number 5011, please.

25        Q.   Now, while that document comes up Mr. Janic, in paragraph 38 of

Page 6220

 1     your statement, you refer to military units arriving in Donji Lapac in

 2     the afternoon of 7th August.

 3             And if you could look at this document that's on the screen that

 4     refers to what happened in Donji Lapac, and, in fact, your involvement in

 5     addressing the matter with the unit commanders of the military, units

 6     that arrived Donji Lapac.

 7             Mr. Janic, you're looking at another document.  Could you just

 8     look at the screen.  Is this an accurate report?  This refers to you

 9     addressing unit commander of the military about burning and problems in

10     Donji Lapac.

11        A.   Well, this is accurate, more or less.

12        Q.   And did you ever find out why the military units were setting

13     fire to houses in Donji Lapac?  Did the unit commanders tell you what was

14     going on?

15        A.   Since special police forces, at the time when they entered the

16     town, were immediately deployed out of town, which means that there were

17     no special police in the town with the exception of our specialist

18     logistical base from which we were supplied with food and other stuff.

19             On the late afternoon of the 7th when the army from the

20     district -- military district of Gospic arrived --

21        Q.   Mr. Janic, if I could just interrupt, my question was, did you --

22     and please try to confine your response to my question.  Did you find out

23     from the military unit commanders with whom you spoke as to why the units

24     kept burning houses through the night?  What was the reason?

25        A.   I did not find out about that.  I was at this meeting.  I warned

Page 6221

 1     the officer there about the situation, and as much as I could do in my

 2     position, I requested this to stop.  So that was my entire exchange that

 3     I had with him.  I considered that my warning would be sufficient for

 4     them to move and restore order in their units.

 5        Q.   And at your debriefing with Mr. Markac on 9th August, did you

 6     inform of this, the burning of the houses in Donji Lapac by military

 7     units, according to this report?

 8        A.   I don't know when, but I did inform him.  I told him about my

 9     meeting with the military and that I requested them to restore order

10     within their forces.  However, on what date it was, I cannot tell you.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I move this document into

12     evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

14             Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P586.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P586 is admitted into evidence.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I call up document number 3342, please.

19     And this is my last couple of questions, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Mr. Janic, have you seen this document before?

21        A.   I think I did.  I think I did.

22        Q.   This is an order from Mr. Markac addressed to all special police

23     unit chiefs and there are a couple of units excepted and then the head of

24     special police sector anti-terrorist unit commander, that Lucko

25     anti-terrorist commander and the airborne unit commander.

Page 6222

 1             And if you could scroll down to paragraph 2 of the English

 2     version, amongst the many orders he orders the units, in this way:  "Unit

 3     commanders and department heads with the special police sector shall

 4     forthwith take measures to ensure civilised professional and lawful

 5     execution of official assignments of the special police members, thus

 6     eliminating arrogance and haughtiness in dealing with the population."

 7             Now, this document is dated 15th November.  What was the basis

 8     for this order?  It presupposes that there was some observed

 9     irregularities during the operation which is referred and that there was

10     uncivilised and unlawful conduct because it clearly orders not to do

11     that.  What was the basis for this order?

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Sorry, Your Honour, I just cannot see whether

13     this order is related to the Operation Storm.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That might transpire or not transpire from the

15     answer to this question.  That is still to be seen.

16             Ms. Mahindaratne is certainly not asking to you speculate.  Do

17     you know what the basis is for this order where apparently measures are

18     taken to avoid in the future certain kind of misconduct?  Do you know

19     what triggered or what events triggered this order to be issued?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an accurate

21     answer.  I was head of the department at the time and it applied to all

22     my men.  I know that there were lots of problems where the special forces

23     returned from the field and they acted sort of arrogantly within their

24     local community and there was some conflicts with those who were not

25     involved in war.  For instance, if a person went back to Pula, the

Page 6223

 1     special police -- military police were proud and treated somewhat

 2     arrogantly other people who did not take part in the war.  This happened

 3     in cafes and in their free time.

 4             I don't know what prompted the general to issue this order, but I

 5     think that what he wanted to see better discipline in that part because

 6     there was no lack of discipline while they were on duty.  It happened

 7     most of the time off duty.  And under the law, they are obliged to behave

 8     themselves according to the law, whether they're on duty or off duty.  I

 9     think this is the -- the point of this particular paragraph.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  May I move this document into evidence,

11     Mr. President.

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  No objections.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

14             Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P587.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P587 is admitted into evidence.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I just wanted to wait for the

18     witness to answer that question, but I just want to point out that

19     interruption in the presence of the witness was inappropriate giving the

20     material to witnesses.  I hope Defence counsel will not repeat that

21     conduct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  From my answer to your objection, Mr. Mikulicic, you

23     may have noted that I thought that it would have been wiser to wait for

24     the answer, and if that is wiser, then is preferred to refrain from

25     intervention.

Page 6224

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm sorry, I apologise.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  It is not dramatic at the same time.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That concludes examination-in-chief.

 5     Mr. President, I apologise for the time I took beyond the time.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll then have a break first.

 7             We'll then have a break and resume at five minutes to 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, are you ready to cross-examine the

11     witness, Mr. Janic?

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  I am, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Janic, Mr. Mikulicic is counsel for Mr. Markac

14     and he will now cross-examine you.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mikulicic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Janic.  I will asking you

19     questions on behalf of Mr. Markac's Defence.  Please answer to the best

20     of your knowledge and recollection.  I would also like to ask you the

21     following.  Try to give our interpreters a decent chance to do their work

22     while answering your questions.  May I also ask you to pause between our

23     questions and our answers, since we both speak the same language.

24             Mr. Janic, you are a long-time police officer and you are fully

25     trained.  How long have you been working with the Ministry of Interior?

Page 6225

 1        A.   I have been a member of the special police for over 20 years.

 2        Q.   You went to certain schools during your career with the special

 3     police.  Can you tell us briefly what sort of training you underwent?

 4        A.   You mean background as in education or do you mean other kinds of

 5     training?

 6        Q.   I mean both, actually.

 7        A.   I went to secondary police school, the higher police school and

 8     the police academy.  I have a degree in criminology.  I underwent various

 9     types of specialist training, mostly to do with anti-terrorism; for

10     example, hostage stage situations, planes getting kidnapped

11     mountaineering, parachuting, crisis management.  I was in charge of some

12     of these training sessions and courses myself and I attended some of

13     these, and there has been a lot of that going on over my career with the

14     military police.

15        Q.   Thank you very much for this answer.  Obviously we would be

16     justified in assuming that you are something of an exceptional case

17     within the special police.  But can you tell us what sort of training

18     special police officers normally get.

19        A.   Special police officers are, nevertheless, police officers.

20     Therefore, they undergo usual police training.  They have to know about

21     Croatia' laws and the laws as relate to the police, the Law on Criminal

22     procedure, the Criminal Code and all general laws and regulations.  They

23     have to be familiar with all these rules that the work of each and every

24     police officer is subject to.  They have to know the rules of procedure.

25             The fact is we're talking about special police.  Therefore, there

Page 6226

 1     is also additional specialist training, which normally comprises a large

 2     number of specialities.  This was first done in the 1990s when the

 3     special police units were first set up and this practice has continued

 4     into this very day, 2008.  Special police officers study anti-terrorist

 5     tactics which teaches them what to do in certain situations, planes being

 6     kidnapped, ships being kidnapped, dealing with hostage situations and how

 7     to get hostages released and various types of situations.  I could go on

 8     like that because is there more.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I think this is an typo here,

10     page 38, line 15.  Special police is noted down as military police.  I

11     just wanted -- it is a small point, but I just wanted to point that out.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you for that, Ms. Mahindaratne.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Janic, would you agree with me that the

16     principle purpose of the special police, since it is a component of

17     Croatia's police, generally speaking, would be to restore law and order

18     whenever law and order are under any significant threats?

19        A.   Yes, that's right.

20        Q.   When the war in Croatia first began and when the need arose for

21     special police units to be involved in certain types of military

22     activity, did the special police units not have to undergo some form of

23     military training?

24        A.   That was most certainly the case.  Throughout the early 1990s

25     large tracts of Croatia's territory were under occupation.  Each citizen

Page 6227

 1     had a commitment to Croatia.  They had to take up weapons and defend

 2     their country and the same applied to the police.  The special police was

 3     an elite branch of Croatia's police so obviously we work under an

 4     obligation to join in.  We had specialist knowledge and special skills

 5     and the expectations were great in that respect.  Special police officers

 6     underwent both specialist training, regular police training and military

 7     training, in addition to that.  We were involved in war operations

 8     between 1990 and 1995.  The training included tactical training of all

 9     members, in the sense of infantry tactics, and also artillery training.

10     We were trained how to clear mines, how to use anti-tank or anti-armour

11     weapons.  We were taught to deal with intelligence, gather intelligence,

12     and use intelligence that we received.  This was also part of our

13     specialist training and there was a part of our training that was meant

14     to familiarize with all sorts of international conventions and laws.

15             So that, too, was part of our training.

16        Q.   Thank you for that answer.  Let's try and say a thing or two

17     about the makeup of the special police units and I'm talking primarily

18     about their ethnic makeup.

19             What about the standards or requirements that were required for

20     someone to become a member of the special police unit?  Did this ever

21     follow ethnic, religious or other lines of that nature or were there

22     other criteria applied?

23        A.   No, none of those were applied.  Then, as now, was only standard

24     that applied was skill and ability on the part of an individual candidate

25     both in mental and purely physical terms, so those were the requirements

Page 6228

 1     that needed meeting.  As long as someone met all those requirements they

 2     would be in a position to become members of the special police but this

 3     was never done along ethnic or religious lines.  I never heard of

 4     anything like that happening and I was there all the time.  I knew

 5     exactly what was going on.

 6        Q.   Could you for example confirm this for me, Mr. Skender Hasimi

 7     [phoen], an ethnic Albanian was a special police commander in the Pula

 8     police administration.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   What about Mr. Ile Taletovic, a Muslim.  He held the same post in

11     the Dubrovnik police administration.  Is that right?

12        A.   Yes.  I can confirm that.

13        Q.   What about Mr. Hamdija Masinovic, another Muslim who was a

14     commander with the Bjelovar police administration?

15        A.   Yes, that is true.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Is this a matter in dispute?

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm glad to hear it, Your Honour.

20             [Interpretation] Could we please have a 65 ter document, 5031.

21     Thank you.

22        Q.   Mr. Janic, a document is about to come up on your screen.  It

23     shows the structure of the special police units of the Ministry of

24     Interior of the Republic of Croatia.

25             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we please zoom in slightly

Page 6229

 1     to allow the witness to see the document.

 2        Q.   Let us try to remind ourselves of how the structure worked, how

 3     the system worked.  Please have a look first and then tell me if you

 4     think the chart faithfully reflects what you know about the system and

 5     how it worked.

 6        A.   Yes, this is a chart of the special police sector.

 7        Q.   So the chief of sector is the boss in a manner of speaking,

 8     right?

 9        A.   Yes, that's true.

10        Q.   All right.  In the left-hand side of our screens we see a box

11     that says internal control sector.  This will come up again during our

12     evidence here but we see that there is someone who is the head of this

13     unit and they have internal control inspectors, as they call them.

14             Now, in what way exactly was this sector a part of particular

15     units of the special police?  Can you tell me anything about that?

16        A.   I didn't directly work with this sector, but they had their own

17     man in each of the units and then they would receive reports from each of

18     the units.

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, request the English translation

20     would be provided later on by the Defence.

21             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you.  It just came on.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  This is a 65 ter document and I believe there is

24     translation.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It just came on the screen.  Thank you.

Page 6230

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Correct me if I'm wrong, sir, of course the

 3     images you're looking at are somewhat smaller now and that makes it more

 4     difficult for you to see.  Within this sector we have the terrorism

 5     prevention department, then we have the Lucko anti-terrorist unit, the

 6     air force unit, the psychological and propaganda department, and the last

 7     thing we see is the logistics department.  That tallies with what you

 8     know about how this worked, right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Can we please move on to the next page of this document.

11     06119428.

12             What we're looking is another chart.  This is the internal

13     structure of the special police units and they are attached to various

14     police administrations of the Ministry of Interior.  You've already

15     mentioned that in each of the police administrations across the country

16     there was a special police unit attached to it headed by a commander.

17     Now, a special police unit commander, who did he answer to within the

18     structure of the police administration?

19        A.   The head of the police administration.

20        Q.   All right.  So this commander had an assistant commander and then

21     we see who else worked within this same framework.

22             If we move on to the next page --

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If the registrar to help us with

24     this, please.

25        Q.   We see a list and a job description for each of these units, for

Page 6231

 1     each of these units that were part of the overall composition.

 2             There is one thing that I would like to dwell on briefly.

 3     06119434, this shows us the composition, the structure of the

 4     anti-terrorist unit, the specialist anti-terrorist unit.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  So if we could go to the last page of this

 6     document.  Okay.  This -- that's the one, that's the one.  Thank you.

 7             I'm always referring to the number in the upper right-hand

 8     corner.  Maybe if there is any other way to proceed with this, I would be

 9     glad to be instructed on it.

10             Okay, let's proceed.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] What we see here is a job description for the

12     anti-terrorist unit.  You mentioned earlier on, Mr. Janic, that in some

13     way the anti-terrorist unit was an elite unit in practical terms.  Can

14     you please briefly explain what led you to you reach that conclusion?

15        A.   All of the other units were special units.  The Lucko ATJ was an

16     anti-terrorist unit and the requirements that this unit had to face were

17     higher, in terms of mental criteria, in terms of physical ability, the

18     requirements were greater.  The bar was set higher.  And its area of

19     activity covered Croatia's territory in its entirety.  This was more like

20     a unit that was active throughout Croatia's territory and it didn't have

21     so much to do with local police administrations and I think the same

22     situation applies now.  For example they control the air space and

23     whenever something happens there, there is only one unit in the country

24     that can deal with the situation.  For example, if have you have a very

25     complex hostage situation and this may or not may not occur.  This is the

Page 6232

 1     only unit that could deal with it, there are a number of other

 2     peculiarities that are attached to the work of this unit but this would

 3     be it for our present purposes.

 4        Q.   You mentioned certain peculiarities.  Do you think that includes

 5     a particularly high level training when it came to clearing mines,

 6     dealing with explosives and such-like?

 7        A.   Yes, that was most certainly the case.  The Lucko ATJ then, as

 8     now, had all the best trained people to deal with mines and explosives,

 9     especially explosives placed under water.  For example, clearing torpedos

10     and anti-naval mines and explosives.  There is no other unit in Croatia

11     that can actually deal with situations of that kind.

12        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  We're looking at this document but

13     this document as a matter of fact contains a number of documents.  It is

14     made up of a number of documents and we see there a part which actually

15     comes from the decree on the internal structure and the principles of

16     work of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia and this

17     is a decree passed on the 23rd February 1995 by Croatia's government.

18             We can move on to the next page and this is 06119435.  As soon as

19     we're there, we can look at the bottom of the page and you see there is

20     talk there of the special police sector.  This is page 12 of the

21     pertinent document.  And then we move on to the next page and we see

22     paragraph 28.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

24     Mr. Mikulicic referred to decree, but I could not follow from which page

25     you were citing, Mr. Mikulicic.

Page 6233

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  The whole decree as -- I mean in total, is under

 2     the ID number 3D00-1502 but this particular part of that decree which I'm

 3     referring on is part of the 65 ter that I mentioned before.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'll try to catch up later on, Mr. President.

 5     I'm sure we will make the connection.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  I'm sure there will be no dispute on that.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] We're talking about paragraph 28.  Paragraph 28

 8     talks about internal control within the special police sector.  This is

 9     what the law says:  "Internal control department undertakes measures and

10     activities aimed at collecting, processing and using intelligence related

11     to internal discipline within the special police, terror groups and their

12     activities as well as other activities posing a serious threat to human

13     lives and property."

14             The department also works on security protection of the special

15     police, equipment, weapons as well as any other tasks in which special

16     police members are involved.

17             It goes on to say that this department works with the service for

18     the protection the constitutional order, they work on refining

19     security-related information, intelligence, and this is something that is

20     used for carrying out tasks peculiar to the work of the special police

21     units and the department has a head who is in charge of this department.

22             Mr. Janic, you say that each unit had its own -- in each unit

23     there was a representative or a man belonging to the internal control

24     department.  Based on your memory we're talking about 1995, the same time

25     as Operation Storm, were these the tasks and responsibilities that these

Page 6234

 1     representatives of theirs would be carrying out across the units?

 2        A.   Yes.  The department itself and these men from that department

 3     had one principal task:  Collecting intelligence, analysing intelligence,

 4     exchanging intelligence, and then there was the intelligence service of

 5     the Croatian army and the service for the protection of the

 6     constitutional order and there were a number of other service services

 7     that worked in gathering intelligence in order to pool all this

 8     intelligence from all of these various branches and services and then

 9     what they did was they drew up security assessments that had to do with

10     certain areas and activities carried out by the special police.  You

11     might call this the intelligence department, just that it simply couldn't

12     be called that and therefore it was called internal control.  It wasn't

13     possible to call it intelligence department.

14        Q.   Mr. Janic, do you know that the sector for internal control

15     conducted any disciplinary procedures or did it instigate or process

16     disciplinary measures against members of the police?

17        A.   No, that was not within their jurisdiction concerning the

18     internal order within the Ministry of Interior, and I may say that the

19     same situation prevails today.  Disciplinary proceedings were instigated

20     by unit commanders or superiors.  If you have a police station and a

21     policeman from that station commits a misdemeanour, then the head or the

22     chief of the police station will launch disciplinary proceeding.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  This is an request to slow down.  That means both

24     speed of speech but also a pause between questions and answer and answer

25     and question.

Page 6235

 1             Please proceed.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm, okay.

 3             [Interpretation] Similarly, according to the same principle the

 4     person authorised to instigate disciplinary proceedings within the

 5     special police was the commander of a specific unit, so one of his

 6     responsibilities was to institute disciplinary proceedings for

 7     disciplinary breaches within his units.  If I were to commit one, then

 8     the disciplinary proceedings against me would have had to be instigated

 9     by the head of the sector.  However, the internal control sector did not

10     have within its purview any competence or authority to institute

11     disciplinary proceedings.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like to have this

14     document admitted into evidence and that a number be assigned to it as a

15     whole.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D526.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  D526 is admitted into evidence.

20             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If we can have now document

21     3D00-1502, please.

22        Q.   What we are about to see on our screens, Mr. Janic, is a decree

23     issued by the government of the republic of Croatia setting up the

24     internal structure and the modus operandi of the Ministry of Interior.

25             For the sake of me asking you a question, only one section of

Page 6236

 1     this decree has been translated and I'm going to refer it now.  Article 2

 2     of this decree specifies the structure of certain parts within the

 3     ministry.  It mentions the office, the chief of office, the sectors,

 4     sections et cetera.  However, we are going to dwell on Article 4, and if

 5     we can look at the next page of this decree, please.

 6             This article stipulates the structure of the unit which is called

 7     the cabinet or the office of the minister.  We're not going to go into

 8     the specific responsibilities of this office.  However, I would like to

 9     draw your attention to Article 8, which speaks about the office of

10     internal control.

11             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] So can we please see Article 8.

12     That's two pages ahead in the Croatian document.  And can we please have

13     the upper part of the page enlarged.

14        Q.   So, Article 8 stipulates that within the office of the minister

15     an office for internal control will be set up.

16             So this unit is called here office, unlike the unit within

17     special police units where it is called a section.

18             Let us look at what this article says.  By operating with all

19     sectors of the ministry, the internal control office should

20     systematically gather data and report which indicate various forms of

21     illegal conduct by officials and so on and so forth.

22             Are you familiar with how this office operated, which was

23     attached to the office of minister, and which has a similar name to the

24     one that we discussed before?

25        A.   Yes.  This office exists today and it is also part of the office

Page 6237

 1     of the minister.  Its jurisdiction today is the same as it is written

 2     here, which means that it independently gathers information and reports

 3     about any illegal or unlawful conduct by members of the police.  It

 4     conducts checks in the field and then decides how to act on this

 5     information.  Therefore, it is not part of the police structure in terms

 6     that it is above the police but, however, it is independent and is

 7     allowed to independently investigate the conduct of police officers.

 8        Q.   This office for internal control set up within the office of the

 9     minister, in a position of kind of subordinations or second-instance

10     organ within the special police relating to internal control?

11        A.   The office for internal control of the office of the minister is

12     completely independent in its work.  The internal control department of

13     the special police must provide certain information if the office asks

14     for it and it is their duty to provide this information, just like any

15     other department within the Ministry of the Interior and the police.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have a number

18     assigned to this document.  Then I would like to tender into evidence

19     this section that has been translated.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D527.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D527 is admitted into evidence.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   If we look now at document 65 ter 02452, we'll see that this

Page 6238

 1     document, which will soon appear on our screens, is an annual report of

 2     the special police sector.

 3             If we move to the next page, we can see that this document was

 4     issued on the 22nd February 1996, that it was addressed to the minister

 5     of the interior, Mr. Jarnjak, and that this is a report relating to the

 6     year 1995.

 7             What I'm interested in in this document is that this is a report

 8     covering also the work of the internal control section, and that is on

 9     page 8 in the Croatian version.

10             While we're waiting -- that's page 8.  Bottom part, if we can

11     have it enlarged, please.

12             It says here that the internal control section of the special

13     police took part in operational and intelligence preparations of all

14     operations and actions in which members of the special police were

15     participating.

16             Accordingly, it says that good cooperation was in place with

17     intelligence administration of the Main Staff of the Croatian army and

18     the service for the protection of the internal order.  The cooperation

19     with MUP in terms of equipment was also good in terms of establishing

20     monitoring centres and things like that.  Then it says that there was

21     exchange of information with other services with a view to gaining an

22     insight into the overall situation.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just point out for the

24     record so that there won't a confusion later on, this is one of the

25     documents that was submitted through the bar table submission last night

Page 6239

 1     so there would not be any duplicity in marking exhibit numbers.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I may take it that at least there will be no

 3     objection on behalf of the Markac Defence.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  There will be no objection, Your Honour, that's

 5     for sure but it's quite hard to, you know, follow up this exchange of.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No one blames you for not having seen that, if it is

 7     true what Ms. Mahindaratne says.  I have not checked that.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation.

11        Q.   Let's go back to this report.  I suppose you would agree with the

12     content of this report, as far as internal control section was concerned.

13     Is that correct?

14        A.   Yes, it's correct.  I fully agree.

15             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

16     admitted, but before we move on, I suppose that my learned colleague had

17     also admitted the remaining parts of this report, which are numerical

18     data.

19        Q.   So let us take a look at the part of the document which contains

20     numerical data that is on page 03549942.  This is a table depicting the

21     makeup of the special police in 1995.

22             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] That would be on the next page,

23     Mr. Registrar.

24        Q.   Mr. Janic, what we see here is a list of special police units

25     that were attached to various police administrations.  The last one we

Page 6240

 1     see will is the Lucko ATJ.  The first column shows us the internal

 2     structure numbers.  The second column gives us figures in relation to

 3     1995.  It tells about the respective strengths of all these units back in

 4     1995.  The next thing that we can see is the ethnic makeup of each of the

 5     special police units.

 6             If we look at this we see that the internal makeup of the Lucko

 7     ATJ went like this:  190 members strength at the moment 75 per cent.

 8     What does this mean strength at the moment, since this is a report about

 9     1995?  Well, I just best allow to you explain this.

10        A.   This means that in terms of its internal makeup the unit could

11     have a maximum of 190 members.  We're talking about the Lucko ATJ now.

12     But at this point in time it only had 75 actual employees in the unit,

13     police officers.  Operation Storm had been concluded and then

14     Operation Flash before so many people were killed and wounded and this

15     affected the makeup of the unit and other units as well.

16        Q.   To the best of your recollection how many members of the Lucko

17     ATJ were there in August and September 1995?  I'm talking about the time

18     when the search operations were conducted.

19        A.   I don't think there were over 50 of them.  Later on during the

20     searchs, maybe about 40 members.

21        Q.   Thank you.  The next page talks about --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... would you mind

23     if I put a question in relation to the page which is --

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Of course, I don't.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me check whether that is on our screen.

Page 6241

 1             Yes.  You earlier explained to us that the composition of the

 2     special police forces was not determined by anything else than skill

 3     and -- nevertheless, it appears from this table that it was an almost

 4     mono-ethnic force.  Do you -- is that -- do you have an explanation why

 5     more than 98 of the force consists of Croats where apparently in

 6     recruiting, the ethnicity or the nationality didn't play a role?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have an explanation, as a

 8     matter of fact.  Special police units are not mobilised.  One volunteers

 9     to become a member.  There are a certain number of volunteer but they

10     must meet certain requirements to become members.  Therefore, one reports

11     as a volunteer in order to join a unit like this.  If no persons of other

12     ethnicities within Croatia reported or volunteered, then there was no one

13     to admit into the special police.  So this was the only requirement that

14     was applied.  One must submit a written application expressing one's

15     desire to undergo certain tests to see if this person was fit to join one

16     of the special police units.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And what kind of tests were these?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Various kinds of tests.  Stamina,

19     durability, running, speed of reaction, marksmanship, martial arts, that

20     sort of thing.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  When you were earlier asked whether the ethnic

22     background or the national background of the members played any role, of

23     course I would have expected you to answer that question by saying no, it

24     didn't play a role at all, but we had hardly any applicants from

25     other-than-Croatian background, or those applicants of non-Croatian

Page 6242

 1     background didn't pass the tests.  I don't know what the case was, but

 2     that would have been a complete answer to the question, Mr. Janic.  Of

 3     course now we see the numbers and I put this question to you, but that

 4     would put a better assist to the Chamber that answer than just saying no

 5     ethnic or nationalist background didn't play any role.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             [Interpretation] Could we please move on to page 03549946, same

 9     document.

10        Q.   This is an overview of forms of training for special police

11     members throughout 1995, the various kinds of training that were

12     implemented through 1995.

13             While introducing this subject you told us about the training and

14     education of the special police members and this was a very important

15     segment of their work.  I'm looking at this document and I'd like to move

16     on to the last page of this document.  This is 948.  I'm talking about

17     the last three digits.  The last page reads -- right.

18             Throughout 1995 20 courses were organised and held, attended by

19     1134 members of the special police.  There were a total of 16 seminars

20     attended by 533 members or employees.  Throughout 1995 there were various

21     forms of specialist training.  1667 members of the special police

22     underwent this and about 100 members of the Ministry of Interior special

23     police units from the neighbouring republic of Herceg-Bosna following

24     approval by the minister.  They all took these courses that were

25     organised, and the seminars.

Page 6243

 1             Mr. Janic, is that in keeping with your own recollection about

 2     these courses that were organised and held and about attendance, the

 3     attendance figures specifically?

 4        A.   Yes.  This tallies with what I know about this.

 5        Q.   Needless to say, whenever you have something that you feel you

 6     need to explain and when you feel that a simple answer would not remain

 7     unambiguous, please provide any explanations that you might feel are

 8     necessary?

 9        A.   Yes.  For example, about 60 per cent of these seminars and

10     courses were run by my own department, organised by my own department.

11     Therefore I was directly in contact with this type of work.  I was myself

12     in charge of some of these seminars.  I offered certain lectures, for

13     example, and I was involved in organizing these courses.  This was part

14     of our work and whenever our men were not busy conducting operations

15     elsewhere we would work on training by organising courses and seminars

16     such as these.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now please move on to page 953, same document.

18             This is a table training level for special police leaders, and

19     you may have said a thing or two about this already.  If we look at this

20     table we can see the training levels for each of the ranks, department

21     chief, inspectors, commanders, assistant commanders and so on and so

22     forth.  We can see the training levels pertinent to each of these

23     categories.  We see that in some cases we have high level, higher level

24     or mid-level.  These are the categories.  The lowest training or

25     education level is something that only has a low percentage here.

Page 6244

 1             Can you therefore confirm that the specialist training and

 2     education levels of special police members was exceptionally high,

 3     especially as compared to some other sectors within the Ministry of

 4     Interior?

 5        A.   Yes, I am able to confirm that.  Within the special police

 6     itself, there was a situation.  Everyone was encouraged to obtain

 7     university degrees and to join schools and get more education because

 8     this was needed for some of the posts, for people to apply to some posts.

 9     For example, if someone had a lower level of education, that person would

10     be sent back to school, as it were.  People were encouraged to go to

11     university and allowances were made for people to be able to go back to

12     studying and this was something that was wholeheartedly encouraged.

13             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please go to page 958

14     of the same document.  Thank you.

15        Q.   This is another table that we're looking at.  These are

16     disciplinary proceedings conducted against special police members

17     throughout 1995.

18             This table was produced in the same way as the previous one.  The

19     breakdown is based on the geographical police administrations and there

20     is an special section here about the Lucko ATJ.

21             If we look at the very last column or box, that's what I'm

22     talking about, manning levels at the moment, 2311 employees, and then the

23     percentage is given, as well as the number of disciplinary proceedings

24     that were in progress, those to do with misdemeanours as well as those to

25     do with more serious forms of crime, their total over 1995, 347

Page 6245

 1     disciplinary proceedings against active duty members of the special

 2     police and that is the left-hand side of the table that we're looking at.

 3             The right-hand side of the table is about the reserve, 2444

 4     members -- 64 members in 1995, 349 disciplinary complaints were filed

 5     against members.

 6             Is this consistent with your understanding of the situation back

 7     in 1995?

 8        A.   Yes.  This is completely consistent with what I knew the

 9     situation to be at the time.  There were a number of disciplinary

10     procedures that were in progress.  This was a way to maintain and enforce

11     discipline.  The disciplinary Court, there was just one for all of the

12     Ministry of Interior.  It wasn't just for the special police.  It applied

13     to all other police formations as well and the court was independent in

14     its work and it remains independent.  For example, you couldn't have

15     someone in the special police who was in a position to affect any action

16     taken by this disciplinary court.  It was up to them to start proceedings

17     or to propose measures and then the court would take over and see the

18     actual procedure through.

19        Q.   Therefore, the special police department did not have its own

20     disciplinary court, right?

21        A.   No, it didn't.  There was just one for people from the ministry.

22     That was at our HQ.  There were various police administrations, for

23     example the Osljak police administration had their own disciplinary court

24     that was part of the Osljak police administration.  The Zagreb court had

25     no power over special police officers from Osljak.  They had to be dealt

Page 6246

 1     with by the Osljak court that was part the Osijek police administration.

 2        Q.   All right.  This is an disciplinary procedure and this has to do

 3     with disciplinary infractions or violations of the rules that pertain to

 4     discipline.  Can you please explain more about this procedure.  What if a

 5     member of the special police was found to have committed a crime.  This

 6     is a more serious form the responsibility, this is not just a

 7     disciplinary infraction or violation.  What happens then?

 8        A.   I'm still an active duty police officer and this is the sort of

 9     problem that I encounter in my work on a daily basis and the same applied

10     back in 1995 and the same procedure applied.  I don't think anything has

11     changed since in terms of procedure.  If a member of the special police

12     commits a crime all the general regulations and rules apply to him as to

13     any other citizen.  If the crime committed in the line of duty, then this

14     prosecution is also conducted in the line of duty.  There is an internal

15     investigation.  The member is as a rule suspended pending completion of

16     the proceedings.  There is normally a disciplinary procedure that is set

17     in motion.  At the same time, however, the investigators start an

18     investigation and then an indictment is issued as soon as there are

19     series of indicia of a crime.  This person is investigated and tried just

20     as any other citizen of the Republic of Croatia.

21        Q.   When you said an investigation is conducted, are you referring to

22     court investigation done by regular courts?

23        A.   Yes.  I think it was done by regular courts but with the

24     assistance of the crime investigation police.  It's not that every court

25     is involved in the whole investigation process.  Some parts of the

Page 6247

 1     processes are done by the investigating police.

 2        Q.   After such police -- court investigation there are two options,

 3     either to suspend the investigation for the lack of evidence or -- due to

 4     other reasons, or the public prosecutor will issue an indictment against

 5     certain individuals.  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   After issuing an indictment comes a trial before the criminal

 8     court.  Is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.  If a person is convicted of a crime he is

10     automatically suspended from civil service; but if he is acquitted by the

11     court and if, at that moment, the disciplinary proceedings have been

12     completed and if the decision from the proceedings was that he would be

13     removed from employment, then he is entitled to instigate administrative

14     procedure to be reinstated in his job.

15             If the suspension from job is not part of the conviction then he

16     would be punished by some more lenient sanctions that do not affect his

17     employment.

18             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would like this document to be

19     tendered into evidence.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Document number 65 ter 02452.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  There 's no objection.

23             Mr. Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number D528, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D528 is admitted into evidence.

Page 6248

 1             Could I ask one question, Mr. Mikulicic.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Of course.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We now have a rather detailed view on disciplinary

 4     actions taken against the members of the special police.  Do you have any

 5     impression as to what the numbers are in relation to police

 6     investigations which resulted in indictments brought against the members

 7     of the special police units?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that information.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we please look

11     at document 65 ter 05000.

12        Q.   We can see that this document was drawn up by the special police

13     sector on the 11th of January, 1996.  It is addressed to Mr. Markac.  And

14     it is actually an annual report on the internal control sector work in

15     1995.

16             This document mentions that the internal control sector, during

17     1995, was engaged in actually four segments.  So they were involved in

18     intelligence in operational preparations for operations in which special

19     police took part.

20             From your own experience and knowledge, can you tell us in what

21     way, when you went to take part in certain operations, were prepared for

22     that particular preparation?  And by that I mean did you -- were you

23     given information about what you can expect on the field, perhaps the

24     number of the enemy troops that you might expect to face, et cetera?

25        A.   Before any operation, we had briefings in which we agreed the

Page 6249

 1     tactics and how to operate within our area of responsibility.  During

 2     these briefing sessions or preparatory meetings, I don't remember how we

 3     called them exactly but it had a name, when we discussed tactics, always

 4     one part of the meeting was dedicated to a presentation by someone from

 5     the internal control.  He would inform us about the overall intelligence

 6     situation and prepare all the commanders in terms of passing on

 7     intelligence information about the enemy, their deployment, number of

 8     troops, positions, equipment, and all other relevant data that were

 9     available.  Then they would give us this information.

10             They were also in charge of preparing maps, in which this data

11     were entered so that once we set off, we would have the enemy deployment

12     already in the map.  Yes, I can confirm this annual report in that it

13     says that is it exactly what they did and that their role, in all

14     operations, was what is in the army done by the army intelligence

15     service.  Essentially this is what they did for us.

16        Q.   Thank you for this answer.

17             Can you clarify to us item number 2, where it says that the

18     internal control department took care of security and protection of the

19     special police units.

20        A.   Well, I can say that members of this section or department

21     assessed the risks of the facilities in which the unit was billeted.

22     They gathered intelligence information in order to assess the level of

23     safety and security of our positions, where special police members were

24     deployed.  This would be briefly the explanation of this particular item.

25        Q.   I understand.  Item 3:  Professional training of members of the

Page 6250

 1     internal control and commanders of reconnaissance units.

 2             Can you shed some more light on this?  What kind of activity this

 3     involved?

 4        A.   All reconnaissance units gathering information and the processing

 5     of intelligence was not only reserved from other intelligence services

 6     within the Croatian military, the secret service and the rest of it.

 7     Also, in each special unit we had our own reconnaissance and intelligence

 8     unit which was in charge of gathering directly on the ground information

 9     and intelligence about the enemy.  And the internal control was in --

10     operationally in charge of running these units and using this data along

11     with other data.

12        Q.   I understand.  Under item 4 it says that internal control was

13     continuously monitoring interpersonal relations, relations between

14     superiors and within the command structure.  And if they would pinpoint

15     any problems they would highlight them.

16             Here there is mention of work discipline and a while ago you told

17     us that the internal control did not conduct any disciplinary proceedings

18     so how are we to understand then this particular task?

19        A.   The internal control, in their job description and in practice,

20     what I personally saw on a daily basis, monitored statistical data about

21     breaches of discipline.  They were given fortnightly reports from unit

22     commanders and in the part which relates to disciplinary measures and

23     proceedings, they would process these fortnightly or other reports and

24     compile statistical data and analysis to be used by the head of the

25     sector, by me or unit commanders.

Page 6251

 1             If in the course of their work the internal control were -- were

 2     to learn that someone had breached discipline and the commander failed to

 3     undertake any measures, although he knew about it, then through the head

 4     of the section, this department will warn the commander that one of his

 5     men had breached discipline, but that would also be up to me to do that.

 6     If I had had this knowledge it would only be natural for me to inform

 7     that somebody had done something and that this person should be punished

 8     for that.

 9        Q.   I understand.  If we move now to page 715 of this document, and

10     that's two pages forward.  Item 4, in the upper part of the page.  Yes,

11     that's right.

12             Here we see that the internal control continuously monitored the

13     work of special police and the system of information distribution.

14     Therefore, they had constant insight into the situation in units in order

15     to undertake preventative actions.  The department highlighted the floors

16     in the work, the relations between officers, disciplinary problems.  They

17     monitored how the structure was developing and dealt with other services

18     in terms of observing how tasks are being carried out.

19             Mr. Janic, can you give us any comment on this part of the report

20     on the work of the internal control?  Is it consistent with what you

21     remember and know?

22        A.   Yes.  This is exactly what this department did, among other

23     things.  If, in the course of their work, they received information about

24     someone committing something, they would send this information through

25     their own channels to the unit commander instructing him to undertake

Page 6252

 1     certain disciplinary procedure, and I think that is the same to what I

 2     said before.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have this document admitted

 5     into evidence and that's 65 ter 05000.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D529.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D529 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the recently

11     admitted document, P587, please.  That's 65 ter 03342.  This is in case

12     it doesn't have designation P.

13        Q.   A short while ago, Mr. Janic, you had an opportunity to see this

14     order dated 15 November 1995, addressed to the heads of police

15     administrations, to the head of the special police sector, to the

16     commander of the Lucko anti-terrorist unit and to the commander of the

17     air force unit.

18             So this order was issued by Mr. Markac, and it refers to the

19     issue of discipline that you so extensively spoke about.

20             Can you confirm that this order reflects also what you said, that

21     commanders of units were authorised to impose discipline?

22        A.   Yes.  They were independent in their work, and they were

23     responsible for imposing discipline and if there was a breach of

24     discipline, they were responsible for instituting disciplinary procedure.

25     This is what they were authorised for.

Page 6253

 1        Q.   I'm interested in another aspect of this document.  It was issued

 2     by the special police sector.  However, if we look into the introductory

 3     part of this which says:  "Upon completion of an analysis of the work and

 4     discipline with the organisational units of the Ministry of Interior of

 5     the Republic of Croatia conducted at the advisory board of the minister,

 6     Mr. Ivan Jarnjak, and in view of a need to eliminate the irregularities

 7     observed in operation, conduct of the members of active and reserve units

 8     of the special police, I hereby issue the following order."

 9             Mr. Janic, can you confirm that this order was sent both to the

10     special police but also to other sectors of the MUP?

11        A.   Absolutely.  This was dealt with at --

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I object.  There is no

13     indication here that it has gone to any other units.  It is to the

14     special police units from -- on the basis of this order.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It reads all police administration chiefs which --

16     and then to be handed over to specialised police units, so therefore at

17     least was not directly addressed to the special police units.

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  Or exclusively.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Or -- yes, it doesn't say that -- with whom it had

20     to be shared apart from these specialised police units.  But it seems to

21     be a minor issue.

22             Mr. Misetic, do you have a major issue?

23             MR. MISETIC:  I don't think it is major but it is something I

24     just wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to, during the break we're having

25     communications with the Prosecution about the translation of one word in

Page 6254

 1     that paragraph.  That relates to in the original the translation of the

 2     phrase [B/C/S spoken], which has been translated here as "in operation"

 3     which is a translation that we believe leads to confusion.  We believe

 4     that the proper translation should be "in the work and conduct," and that

 5     actually was a subject of come confusion between the Prosecution and the

 6     Defence and we'll probably seek a clarification of the translation.  Just

 7     so that the record is complete, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that the parties together could find the

 9     resources which finally will lead to the ultimate translation of this

10     phrase.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13             Mr. Mikulicic.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Please, Mr. Janic, continue with what you were

16     explaining.  You said that this order actually was generated at the

17     meeting of the collegium of ministers.

18        A.   The decisions taken at the collegium refer to all the sectors of

19     the ministry.  At the time, in 1995, there were three sectors.  That was

20     regular police, that was crime police, and that was special police and

21     these orders inadvertently --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Correction.

23        A.   -- invariably referred to all three segments.

24             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Does this conclusion of yours stem from how this letter was

Page 6255

 1     addressed?  It says all police administrations.

 2        A.   Yes.  The head was -- the head was --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter kindly asks the witness to repeat

 4     his last answer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you -- could you please repeat your last

 6     answer, which was not caught by the interpreters.

 7             You said "the head was ..."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed.  I said that the chief of

 9     the police administration was also the head of his special unit but also

10     to all other police units within his administration including the crime

11     police and the regular police.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

13             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Now let's see how discipline worked in practice.

15     Next up is a 65 ter document 05225.

16             This is a document dated October 1995.  It was issued by

17     Mr. Markac, and it was sent to the head of the Zadar and Knin police

18     administration.  It says that it must be submitted to the special police

19     unit commander, the unit attached to that police administration, the

20     purpose of this document being verification of certain data.  It say that

21     an Official Note reached the police administration from the Gracac police

22     branch and the note states that on the 17th of September, 1995 four

23     special police members were observed driving in a vehicle with certain

24     licence plates and they were spotted moving away from a family home that

25     was set fire to, as well as the shed next to it with haystacks in it.

Page 6256

 1             The registration plates are known to the Zadar-Knin police

 2     administration and that is why a check is requested.

 3             Based on your recollection, was this one of the ways in which, in

 4     practical terms, issues regarding discipline were dealt with within the

 5     special police sector?

 6        A.   Yes.  The general applied rigorous standards in this respect.  It

 7     is quite obvious that the special police unit commander did not have this

 8     note from the Gracac police station.  This is how the system worked.  The

 9     information first got to the special police sector and then the special

10     police sector forwards this in such a way to the commander of that

11     special police unit and then he further processed this, given his power

12     to first establish the facts and then if the facts show that someone did

13     something or other, what follows next is disciplinary steps that are

14     taken.

15             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this

16     document, please.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President, just for the

18     record again this is one of the documents that was tendered in the bar

19     table submission last night.  For the record, it is document number 12 on

20     the list, Mr. President, so that there won't be any confusion at the end

21     of these proceedings if there is time I will indicate what documents have

22     been tendered into evidence today from that list.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If you then remove that from the list or mark

24     them on the list in such a way that Mr. Registrar does not assign

25     duplicate numbers to the same document.

Page 6257

 1             Mr. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D530.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  D530 is admitted into evidence.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 65 ter

 5     document 05227.

 6        Q.   This is a report produced by the Zadar and Knin police

 7     administration, the special police unit specifically.  The date is 4

 8     October 1995, addressed to the special police sector.

 9             The person issuing the document is the special police unit

10     commander, Mr. Vrsalje [phoen].  The report talks about the fact that the

11     report itself is a result of the request that we looked at a while ago,

12     the request made by the special police sector, specifically Mr. Markac,

13     and it says that the check was conducted and that it was established

14     beyond reasonable doubt that the arsonists in the village of Potkorina,

15     unknown house number, was a man named Ivan Kovac, a member of the special

16     police unit of the Zadar and Knin police administration.

17             The document goes on to describe what exactly was established.

18     It was established that he was together with another three members of the

19     special police.  They drove over to that village where he set fire to

20     this building.  The other three members were not involved and he was the

21     only one who was now facing disciplinary measures.  He was dismissed from

22     his post as special police group leader.  And 10 percent of his next

23     salary was deducted.  There was a mitigating circumstance relating to the

24     perpetrator.  He had a clear police record and his performance had, up to

25     that point, been impeccable.

Page 6258

 1             Mr. Janic, isn't this exactly along the same lines with what you

 2     were telling us the special police unit members were authorised to impose

 3     discipline in these units?

 4        A.   Yes, that's precisely what this confirms.  They initiated their

 5     own disciplinary procedures.  There were certain kinds of procedures

 6     where they had the power to take decisions and impose punishment but that

 7     was in relation to certain types of infractions and sometimes they would

 8     initiate proceedings and then a court would take over and potentially

 9     prosecute or try the case.

10        Q.   This, in a way, anticipate my next question.  We're looking here

11     at a crime, an offence, which at least at first sight bears the hallmarks

12     of a crime because there is property destroyed and the safety of persons

13     is potentially jeopardised.

14             I'm not sure if you know about the specific case, but was it

15     possible to have a disciplinary procedure and a criminal complaint filed

16     with the state prosecutor in parallel and then there is an independent

17     procedure, criminal procedure that is underway which does not in any way

18     depend on the disciplinary procedure that is in progress?

19        A.   Yes, that's right, the two are not necessarily related.  In this

20     case I'm not sure what the police did or did not do, but they could have

21     investigated this and they could have filed a criminal complaint.  And

22     this had nothing to do with the commander's decision to filing a

23     complaint and this had nothing to do with a potential disciplinary

24     procedure.  The two procedures are not necessarily related.  They become

25     related if there is a criminal complaint and there has not yet been a

Page 6259

 1     disciplinary procedure so if a criminal complaint is filed and then the

 2     disciplinary complaint was not filed, then once a criminal procedure is

 3     started, you must have a disciplinary complaint to be able to launch a

 4     criminal procedure.

 5        Q.   Thank you very much for this explanation.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can I have a number for this

 7     document, please.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President in fact, this is

10     also another document that was submitted.  It looks like Mr. Mikulicic

11     and I are both on the same page.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You seem to have a shared, a common interest in

13     certain matters.

14             Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D531.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  D531 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  May I ask one question to clarify.

19             Mr. Janic, you -- you said several times a criminal complaint

20     could have been filed.  What was the determining factor on whether --

21     where apparently a crime had been committed, whether or not a criminal

22     complaint is filed?  This is complaint by the victim or is it a complaint

23     by the police officers investigating the matter?

24             Could you tell us what would trigger the filing of a criminal

25     complaint?

Page 6260

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to explain.

 2             The document came from the Gracac police station.  It has its own

 3     head.  They have their own crime police units, civilian police and so on

 4     and so forth.  They were entirely autonomous, independent, and it was up

 5     to them to judge the gravity of a crime and perhaps file a criminal

 6     report.  Based on their assessment of the crime itself, they sent a note

 7     to the special police sector, but this has nothing to do with the fact

 8     that they may or may not have decided to go ahead with this.  If they had

 9     any evidence, if they were any indicia of a crime being committed, they

10     could have filed a criminal report to the appropriate court within their

11     own area.  This is what would have triggered criminal proceedings.  And

12     this was down to the Gracac police station.

13             What steps they took in this particular case is not something

14     that I can tell you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Mikulicic.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you.

17             [Interpretation] Can we please have 3D00-1467.

18        Q.   As we're waiting for the document to come up, let me ask you

19     this.  Earlier on we talked about the fact that within the special police

20     sector there was training, specialised training, courses and so on and so

21     forth.  This is a document that dates back to the beginning of 1995.  It

22     is addressed to Mr. Markac.  The document contains information about the

23     types of teaching and courses that were organised.

24             If you look at page 14, among other things of this document, you

25     see Roman numeral XI, theory and specialised subject matter, a total of

Page 6261

 1     20 teaching hours.  It says that issues to do with international law of

 2     war were studied.  This is something that you have already confirmed.

 3     Can you now again confirm that this was the case in the special police

 4     sector also on the eve of Operation Storm, in 1995?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm in a position to confirm that.  Each time there was a

 6     seminar or a course that was organised and held, unless it was a

 7     specialist course for divers or some such, but the one I'm looking at

 8     right now, this was a seminar for special police leaders.  This was part

 9     of the teaching programme, international law of war, that was one of the

10     topics tackled.  This was something that we studied at the time since we

11     were at war but even before then we knew that Croatia was occupied to a

12     large extent, Croatia's territory, there would be other operations, we

13     knew that, it was only logical that we should get our people to

14     understand more and familiarize themselves with the rules and provisions

15     of international law of war.

16        Q.   If we move on to page 15, that's the next page, you said Croatia

17     was at war and more operations were expected.  Page 15 Roman numeral XII,

18     chapter 12.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ... I look at the

20     whole of the document as it was uploaded in e-court and I find in English

21     a three-page document.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, I --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which causes my some problems to get to page 15.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes, it is my mistake, Your Honour.  Page 15

25     hasn't been translated but it's -- we have only partial translation but

Page 6262

 1     for these purposes it is the only, in fact, couple of words in it that

 2     were deleted for the purposes of the record and then we will translate it

 3     as soon as possible.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Because admission of course depends on the

 5     availability of an English translation, although we sometimes do admit

 6     but then require to report when the English translation is --

 7             MR. MIKULICIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...I'm aware of it, Your

 8     Honour.  Thank you very much for --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- uploaded.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Janic, we're looking at Roman numeral XII,

12     chapter 12, ten teaching hours, Croatian army, structure and purpose of

13     the Croatian army, the use of its arms and branches and the command

14     system that was in place.  Is this along the same lines as what you have

15     been telling about Croatia was at war, there were war operations that

16     were imminent and this was about the whole system under which the

17     Croatian army worked, right?

18        A.   Yes.  The operations carried out up until that point and those

19     still in the pipelines, as it were, all of that was under the guidance of

20     the Croatian army.  We were all part of these military operations and we

21     all worked together.  Needless to say, we had to know about the command

22     system, the communications system, all the insignias and all call signs

23     and everything else that had to do with the Croatia army in order to

24     enable us to work together and be involved in those operations together.

25     If we had not been aware of all these, we would not have been able to

Page 6263

 1     work with them and cooperate in conducting these operations.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I move that this document be

 3     tendered into evidence without this last section.  I move that the three

 4     existing pages or, rather the three pages for which a translation exists

 5     be admitted as an exhibit.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objections Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I just point out there were

10     several questions asked based on pages which is not available and that

11     pending translation I have no objection to the entire document being

12     tendered into evidence so that we have the benefit of the entire

13     document.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D532.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D532 is admitted into evidence.

18             Mr. Mikulicic, you are instructed to inform Ms. Mahindaratne as

19     soon as the complete translation has been uploaded.

20             Ms. Mahindaratne, on from that moment you have another two days

21     to inform whether your position, that is there is no objection against

22     admission, stands or is changed.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  By the way, I'm looking at the clock.  I don't know

Page 6264

 1     whether it is it wise to proceed at this moment.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  I have only one document and I will be finished

 3     with this theme.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, then perhaps we finish that first.  If you take

 5     that one document.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

 7             [Interpretation] 65 ter document 03055.

 8        Q.   Mr. Janic, the special police members who were involved in these

 9     operations together with the Croatian army, the operations launched to

10     liberate the occupied areas of the Republic of Croatia in 1995.  We see

11     based on your evidence that they were familiar with international law of

12     war, that they were taught about that too.

13             You see something on the screen now.  This is it the rules of

14     behaviour for soldiers.  Can you confirm that this was a booklet that was

15     distributed to soldiers within the special police sector.

16        A.   Yes, I'm in a position to confirm that.  This booklet was used in

17     training but also on the eve of these operations each member of the

18     special police received a copy and each member had the responsibility of

19     familiarizing themselves with this.  Each member had this booklet in

20     their possession.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this admitted

22     into evidence, this document, and after that, I think this would be the

23     right time for a break.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.  I don't know

Page 6265

 1     whether -- I see only the cover page.  I presume the entire booklet is

 2     being tendered into evidence and there will be a translation provided.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  I believe there must be a translation because

 4     this is an 65 ter document rendered by the OTP.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we have the advantage of --

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  I must admit -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 7     translation but --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- technical matters.  I see that is in the original

 9     B/C/S, it's a 46-page document, and in the source attachments field, I

10     only see the original where usually if there is a translation, it appears

11     there in the extra fields.  It gives an English ERN number.  And it says

12     that there is a translation, translation language English.  English ERN

13     ET-0206-6448 and then 0206-6449, which suggests that the 46 pages in

14     B/C/S have been translated in one page of English, which would come as a

15     surprise to me.

16             Mr. Registrar, did I misinterpret the --

17             THE REGISTRAR:  No, Your Honour, that's correct.  And actually

18     the English translation is on the screen right now.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  It's on the screen right now.  Let's have a look.

20             Yes, that confirms that it is one page of an unrevised

21     translation.

22             If I'm able, within 30 seconds, to have all the details available

23     what is in the system, then I expect the parties to make themselves so

24     much acquainted with the system that they don't have to say well, it is a

25     65 ter number, so there should be a translation, just check and verify

Page 6266

 1     that, I mean, if need be, together with your case managers.  In this

 2     respect I have no case manager to assist me at this moment.  I now also

 3     see that we have the original I saw earlier, the -- on the screen, the

 4     B/C/S.  I saw two different -- from what I understand.  I saw one with a

 5     red cross but I earlier saw one or perhaps did not see the whole -- no, I

 6     saw something different.

 7             MR. MIKULICIC:  In fact --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We have two different versions at least with the

 9     same title and I'm now just looking at two screens somewhere in front of

10     me, one with a picture, the other one with the Red Cross emblem.  It

11     might be the another page of the same document.

12             Mr. Mikulicic, you are instructed to take care that we have a

13     translation of this document uploaded into e-court.

14             Meanwhile, Mr. Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D533.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  D533 is admitted into evidence with the same proviso

17     that you should inform Ms. Mahindaratne once a translation has been

18     uploaded, and Ms. Mahindaratne, then you also have two days to explain

19     your position, although I must admit that you have not taken a position

20     yet, so you couldn't even change it.  You only mentioned that you were

21     not aware of an English translation.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is so, Mr. President.  But this document

23     does not seem to be contentious document.  I will not object for its

24     admission, but please I would be grateful if the Defence could provide a

25     translation.

Page 6267

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I can now then definitely say that you have two

 2     days once you have received the translation.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, if I may, if I may.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  This is a 65 ter document.  Well, that is the

 6     document produced by the OTP so we supposed that there --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  -- is translation.  We are not supposed to add

 9     the translation to the OTP documents.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No, you are perfectly right.  I misunderstood as a

11     matter of fact --

12             MR. MIKULICIC:  Okay.

13             JUDGE ORIE: -- the -- what you said when you said it's a 65 ter

14     document.

15             MR. MIKULICIC:  The prior document was another story.  That

16     was --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             MR. MIKULICIC:  -- how it --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes sometimes the --

20             So, therefore, Ms. Mahindaratne, you have a task.

21             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, as I understand the system, and

22     I don't want to take time over this issue any way, but when it comes to

23     large documents we do not request for the entire document to be

24     translated but since the Defence is tendering this document into evidence

25     I believe it would be appropriate for the Defence to request for --

Page 6268

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let me stop this discussion at this moment

 2     here.  Because this is really an issue who should ask CLSS to translate

 3     or not.  These are the kind of subjects I'm always prepared to discuss

 4     with the parties at 7.00 in the morning or 10.00 at night.

 5             MR. MIKULICIC:  And weekends.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, weekends are fine.  Private life is -- although

 7     not always --

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  But, Your Honour --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  -- but that's --

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  -- there are a lot of pictures in this document

11     so it would not be hard to translate it.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now one question, I saw the Red Cross emblem

13     on one of them.  It was -- was there ever published by the Red Cross

14     because then there might be an English version of the same document

15     available.  I don't know.  But it is just --

16             MR. TIEGER:  Just a note, Your Honour, the emblem is on both the

17     second -- it's on the second page behind the document you're looking at

18     right now.  So it -- I don't think it refers to two separate documents

19     but this -- this picture appears to be an overlay over the Red Cross

20     emblem that you saw before, for whatever that is worth.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If it is a Red Cross document there is at

22     least a chance that it exists also in English.

23             You've got 20 minutes to see whether you can resolve this matter.

24             We resume at 1.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

Page 6269

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic, you may proceed.

 3             MR. MIKULICIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             [Interpretation] If we can please have document number 65 ter

 5     3966.

 6        Q.   What we are about to see on the screen, Mr. Janic, is the minutes

 7     of the meeting between the president of the Republic of Croatia,

 8     Mr. Franjo Tudjman, and a delegation of the military, held on the 17th

 9     July 1995 on Brioni.

10             General Markac was also present at this meeting, and here I would

11     like to refer you to page 48 of this record.  This is ERN page 01324928.

12             Of course, we are not going to analyse the entire record of this

13     meeting, but we shall rather focus on the subject that is of interest to

14     us at this point, and that is the duties and the tasks and the work of

15     special police.

16             At the meeting, Mr. Markac took to the floor, and, in his

17     address, Mr. Markac warned and I -- oh, I apologise, I gave you a wrong

18     page.  And we'll go back to this one later.

19             But now I'd like to see page 1329 --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the counsel please repeat the number of

21     the page.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the number.

23             MR. MIKULICIC:  This is the page 27 of the transcript, and the

24     ERN number is 01324961.  That's the one.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] So Mr. Markac took to the floor here and

Page 6270

 1     addressed the president of the republic about the use and the purpose of

 2     special purpose units.  And he said that there should be a tactical

 3     reserve of rapid action special forces which, based on good assessment

 4     and good use by the staff, and you can find this on the next page, page

 5     28, can you be used in any part of the territory of the Republic of

 6     Croatia.

 7             These forces, continues Mr. Markac, have been involved in a

 8     number of major military operations and have demonstrated that they were

 9     prepared and mobile and most importantly capable within very short period

10     of time, six to eight hours, to have all their forces ready and deployed

11     in the expected areas.

12             At the end of his address, which is on page 30, ERN number

13     01324964, Mr. Markac concluded by saying:  "Mr. President," this is to

14     President Tudjman, "I estimate that we are ready to carry out any task

15     but I would like to draw your attention to the fact that we have to be

16     given a specific task."

17             Mr. Janic, according to your understanding and knowledge can you

18     explain to us how you in the special police interpreted this specific or

19     this special purpose task?

20        A.   The special purpose task would mean that there are some specific

21     features in terms of the capabilities of special police which is an

22     outcome of a long-term training, education, and experience acquired in

23     the previous operations.  The special police had the status of a firm and

24     elite unit, capable of carrying out the most difficult tasks under the

25     most difficult circumstances.  For instance, in mountains, in forbidden

Page 6271

 1     terrain, in winter time.  That is to say, in the conditions in which

 2     other military units were not able to move around large forces.  Under

 3     such circumstances, through their training and through their way of work,

 4     the special police had demonstrated and here they say that they are ready

 5     to take on such special purpose tasks in future as well.  And this is

 6     exactly what happened later in the Storm.

 7             So by operating in difficult conditions, in mountainous areas,

 8     et cetera, these operations could have only be done by elite units,

 9     special units like ours.

10        Q.   If we now move to page 48 of this record; this is ERN number

11     01324982, this is part of President Tudjman's speech, and we see that

12     this is what he says here by referring to the address of General Markac:

13             "General Markac has mentioned the problem of special forces of

14     the internal affairs.  When there were no other legal or constitutional

15     possibilities, as you know, we have started forming the Croatian army

16     from among the ranks of the ministry and this particularly refers to

17     special internal affairs forces who played a pivotal role in all the

18     operations that we had so far.  However, we also have to be realistic

19     about this.  We do not need to make a special or separate parallel army

20     out of these special units.  Therefore they should maintain the features

21     that they have had, since the liberation until the war in Croatia and

22     Bosnia is over, and then we shall decide finally what to do.  Until then,

23     they should remain as they are, and the task given to them would be such

24     that would be part of joint operations that can be carried out and they

25     can easily be carried out or even better by them than by some other

Page 6272

 1     units."

 2             Mr. Janic, would you agree with me from these quotations it turns

 3     out that at the very top government level, and I'm referring to

 4     President Tudjman and the ministers present there, in a certain way it

 5     has been established how special police should look like and how it

 6     should work within the ministry as unit dedicated to special tasks.

 7        A.   Yes, one can say that.  The state leadership with

 8     President Tudjman at its helm had information about the special police.

 9     They recognise the achievements we made during the war and they

10     appreciate our contribution to the war of independence.  Their assessment

11     was that, since full liberation of Croatia was being planned, this

12     demonstrates that within these operations, particularly in view of the

13     skill and expertise of the special police, they were counted upon as a

14     very serious unit intended for special purpose tasks.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. MIKULICIC:  Can we please have a number for this document.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D534, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D534 is admitted into evidence.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Can we have now 65 ter document

22     number 04484.

23        Q.   Before we discuss this document, Mr. Janic, let us move to

24     another subject.  On the eve of Operation Storm, I would like to discuss

25     the situation in Velebit with respect to special police units.

Page 6273

 1             Can you please tell us, in a few sentences, and bearing in mind

 2     the time that we have available, what the task of special police were --

 3     was in Velebit, not only at that time but also two or three years before?

 4        A.   I'll try to be brief.  You know that the occupied territories

 5     were very close to the shoreline.  There was only one road connecting

 6     northern parts of Croatia with its southern part and that was the highway

 7     and it ran next to the Mount Velebit.  There was absolutely a need to

 8     prospect this road from the attacks by Serbs across Mount Velebit.  They

 9     were capable of attacking it.  In view of the specific features of these

10     mountains and very hard conditions of operating in a mountainous area,

11     this task was assigned to special police.  In 1992 it covered the area

12     from Gospic to southern slope of Velebit.  Our task was to defend the

13     only road connecting the northern and southern Croatia from a possible --

14     from a possibility of its being cut off.  From 1992, positions were taken

15     up on Velebit.  The code-name was Poskok 1, later it was renamed Poskok

16     2.  The special police held the defence line from northern to southern

17     Velebit and this line with some changes following the Maslenica

18     operation, remained the same after Operation Storm.  And that was the

19     point of departure for special police in Operation Storm.

20             So this is what we did on Mount Velebit.

21        Q.   Can you tell us where the special police was based immediately

22     before Operation Storm and throughout that period?  I'm referring to the

23     command headquarters.

24        A.   The command headquarters of special police on Mount Velebit was

25     as follows.  The main logistical base was in a place --

Page 6274

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not get name of place.

 2        A.   -- directly on the sea shore.  I think in the place called

 3     Libinje on Velebit was a forward command post which commanded the special

 4     police forces on Velebit.

 5        Q.   Can you describe this geographical area?  Is this a populated

 6     area?  Can you just illustrate what we are talking about?

 7        A.   Velebit is the highest mountain in Croatia.  It is very harsh.

 8     The conditions for life are very difficult there.  There is no human

 9     population there.  It is particularly difficult in winter time because

10     winters are long.  There is lots of snow and the weather is -- conditions

11     are difficult.  Staying on Velebit throughout these years, the special

12     police gained invaluable experience in operating in difficult mountainous

13     areas as well as in the defending or holding a defence line.  So this

14     experience of two or three years of defending Velebit was the basis in

15     tactical terms for later successes achieved in Operation Storm which

16     ensued.

17        Q.   How did you solve logistical problems, food supplies, weapons,

18     materiel and everything else that is required for having a unit operating

19     and functioning normally?

20        A.   We had our own logistical service and base on Mount Velebit and

21     the entire MUP logistical service relied on it, starting from equipment,

22     procurement department, financial and materiel procurement department.

23     We had their assistance in that domain.  Supplies were initially provided

24     in a way by using horses as the most simple and most practical means of

25     transportation along mountainous paths.  We had logistical teams

Page 6275

 1     providing and transferring food and equipment.  However, under harsh

 2     weather conditions we could only use horses or pack animals for providing

 3     supplies to the units on the ground.

 4        Q.   So if I understood you properly, the special police units, in

 5     Velebit, spent quite a long time before Operation Storm.  How long?

 6        A.   Are you meaning -- are you referring to the combat deployment or

 7     preparations?

 8        Q.   Preparations.

 9        A.   During July, as far as I know, and I was personally there, we

10     thought that this was going to be real action which later became Storm.

11     It was around -- on or around 29th of July.  We were on Velebit and

12     within our area of responsibility we were given the objectives of the

13     operation, which were similar or identical to those of Operation Storm.

14             After two or three days on Mount Velebit this operation was

15     recalled.  I don't know whether this was treated as an exercise or

16     whatever, but one could say that that was a dress rehearsal for

17     Operation Storm.

18             After that, we had a detailed analysis of this so-called action

19     that was aborted because at that time, there were more than 2.000 men in

20     position on Velebit, including artillery and equipment, as if it were a

21     real operation, and we learned some lessons and drew some conclusions

22     with regard to communications and tactical terms and this was applicable

23     and applied later in the actual Operation Storm.

24        Q.   If we can turn to next page of the document on the screen.  Let

25     me draw your attention to the fact that the title of this document is

Page 6276

 1     handwritten and it says that this is an order issued to General Mladen

 2     Markac for Operation Storm.  This is a document dated 26th June 1995 and

 3     I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is it precisely what you

 4     just told us about a minute ago.  This is a document issued by the

 5     Main Staff of the Croatian army.

 6             At the time the chief of the Main Staff of the Croatian army was

 7     General Janko Bobetko and it was submitted to the commander of the

 8     special units of the MUP, Colonel General Mladen Markac.

 9             So, according to this document an order is being given to the

10     special forces of the Ministry of Interior to -- from the operational

11     base in Velebit and what follows are the names and locations which later

12     we're going to see in the map.  An order is given to launch attacks along

13     certain axis in order to capture Mali Golic, Sveti Rok, Gracac and

14     Prezid.  It is specifically said that they need to cut off the road

15     leading from Gospic to Gracac, in the section between Sveti Rok and

16     Stikada, that they need to capture a radio relay transmitter at Celavac,

17     that they need to place under their supervision the pass at Prezid and to

18     link up with the forces of the military district of Split and place under

19     surveillance and supervision road Jasanica, [unintelligible], Prezid and

20     Vusic [phoen].

21             The next page of this order, could you please turn the page chief

22     Bobetko issues the following order.  The operation is to be carried out

23     in two stages over a total of three days.  Then there is a detailed

24     description of what stage 1 and stage 2 respectively would comprise.

25             If you look at item 3, it says that all the remaining forces

Page 6277

 1     should perform active defence.  If there is a favourable tactical

 2     situation that arises, there should be attacks as well in order to pose a

 3     threat to the Medak-Sveti Rok road.  It also says there should be

 4     coordination the district area -- recruitment area commander in Split the

 5     people in Zagreb and the command of the 27th Guards Brigade.  The special

 6     police forces must be ready by the 29th of June at 5.00.  The order is

 7     forwarded also to the commanders of the Split and Gospic recruitment

 8     areas.

 9             This is order that brought you and another 2.000 special police

10     members to Velebit early in June.  An operation was expected, which never

11     got off the ground.  You were then withdrawn from Velebit, right?

12        A.   Right.  I do apologise.  I was wrong by about a month a while ago

13     as I was speaking.  I was talking about July and it was actually June.  I

14     would like to correct that.  Yes, this was the order for that particular

15     operation which was never carried out.  We were convinced that we would

16     be launching this operation.  We were perfectly ready on the day and by

17     the hour and we had prepared well for all these tasks specified here.  We

18     were fully ready to perform this operation.

19        Q.   I suppose you have noticed this, too and I think everybody else

20     in this courtroom has noticed, there is no explicit mention of the word

21     Storm or Operation Storm in this order is there?

22        A.   No, there is none.

23        Q.   I move that this document be admitted into evidence.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 6278

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As exhibit number D535, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  D535 is admitted into evidence.

 3             Could I put one question to you, Mr. Janic.  What we see here is

 4     that staff general Janko Bobetko is giving orders, he is an army

 5     authority, he is giving orders to Mr. Markac who is in the Ministry of

 6     Interior.  Not a request.  It is an order with quite some operational

 7     details; what to do, when to do it, and what order to do it.

 8             Could you explain how a military commander would give orders to a

 9     police commander how to deploy his forces and what they should do?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

11             The special police at the time was part of the armed forces of

12     the Republic of Croatia.  It was now back to it performing military

13     operations.  All orders for military operations were issued to everyone

14     by the Chief of Staff, head of the Main Staff of the Croatian army.  I'm

15     sure the minister would approve that sort of thing previously.  I don't

16     quite remember, but all war operations were run from a war centre, from a

17     military centre.  Each of the orders was given by a commander and that

18     applies to this one as well.

19             We were but a component of our armed forces.  We were police, but

20     at this point in time we were also part of the armed forces.

21             MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... this theme a

22     little bit later.  This is my intention.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I will wait and see.  It came into my mind and

24     sometimes but putting a question you can also read my mind, which may

25     sometimes be of advantage to counsel for whatever party.

Page 6279

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  Thank you.

 3             [Interpretation] Can we please have 3D00-1421.

 4        Q.   Mr. Janic, you say that you were at the ready but were then

 5     withdrawn from Velebit.  What you have in front of you is a document is

 6     produced by the Main Staff of the Croatian army dated the 29th June,

 7     three days after the previous document.  This one, too, was issued by the

 8     head of the Main Staff Janko Bobetko.  It was addressed to Mr. Markac.

 9     It reads:  "Due to the newly arisen situation, an increased number of the

10     MUP Special Units engaged pursuant to my order," and then we have the

11     number and the date, "shall immediately be withdrawn back to base."

12             This was immediately forwarded to the Split recruitment area

13     commander and that of Gospic.  Does this correspond with the situation

14     you came across on the ground?

15        A.   Yes, that is precisely what happened.  There was a withdrawal.

16        Q.   All right.  So you withdrew.  Can you tell us what exactly

17     happened after that, or, rather, can we please have a number for this

18     document?

19             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D536.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  D536 is admitted into evidence.  You put the

23     question to the witness and then you said or rather let's have a number.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  What --

Page 6280

 1             MR. MIKULICIC:  Not rather.  I forgot the --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what the transcript says.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  Sorry for the confusion.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Following this decision by General Bobetko

 6     concerning the withdrawal of forces from Velebit you withdrew.  What

 7     happened now.  We are now in early July 1995.

 8        A.   All the units went back to their own police administration areas

 9     except for those who were still watching the defence lines along Velebit.

10     Then there was some preparations that were carried out.  It was clear

11     that an operation was imminent.  There was some tactical preparations.

12     There were parts of Velebit that were reconnoitred by the reconnaissance

13     operative groups.  They carried out reconnaissance in the area, they

14     gathered intelligence on the enemy forces that there were and their

15     positions.  We scouted the enemy lines.  We gathered intelligence, we

16     drew up anlayses, and the operation was in the pipeline.  It was being

17     planned.

18        Q.   You say the operation involved the presence of over 2.000 special

19     unit members on Velebit.  How did this group coming together?  How was it

20     put together?

21        A.   We called them collective forces or special purpose forces.  That

22     would be military jargon for that, the kind they use today.  They would

23     stay in their own police administration areas going about their daily

24     tasks but whenever it was necessary, and this was one such situation,

25     there would be an assessment as to how many men would be needed to

Page 6281

 1     perform a certain operation and then the special police sector in a

 2     situation like this based on such an assessment would call up a number of

 3     units, a number of men, 3.000 if that's what they thought they needed,

 4     then 3.000 would be called up, you know, 15 units each comprising 150 or

 5     200 people.  At this point in time we had these groups that were put

 6     together under a single command and there was only one purpose to their

 7     work.  They would carry out a couple of tasks that were provisional

 8     tasks, and as soon as these tasks were completed, the special purpose

 9     forces or groups would be dissolved and each of the original units would

10     say go back to their own respective police administration areas and they

11     would go back to their daily work.

12        Q.   All right.  Just to make sure that my understanding is correct.

13     There were a total of 19 police administrations there, part of which were

14     also the special police units and the Lucko ATJ.  A certain number of men

15     were called up who then set up this group, collective force group, if I

16     may call it that, and this went on operating as an independent group and

17     it had a particular mission or objective, right?

18        A.   Yes.  That's right.

19        Q.   All right.  So once a group like that was formed, under whose

20     command within the special police sector were they or was it?

21        A.   They were under the operative command of the chief of the special

22     police sector.  Of course if you look at the chain of command there is

23     also General Markac [Realtime transcript read in error "Cermak"], the

24     number one man of the special police units.  But in an operative sense in

25     terms of control, this was something for the chief of the special police

Page 6282

 1     sector.  He was in charge.

 2        Q.   Therefore, not all special police unit members were part of this

 3     collective group, as it were.  Some of them remained with their original

 4     police administrations, didn't they?  Under whose command were those

 5     police members?

 6        A.   As long as they stayed back within their own police

 7     administrations, they would be under the command of their own chief, the

 8     chief of their police administration.  Not everyone was called up to be

 9     part of these collective groups as it were, because we were still holding

10     positions at the time down in Croatian south around Prevlaka, the

11     Prevlaka isthmus, and we had some forces in Western Slavonia after

12     Operation Flash.  Therefore, it wasn't possible to physically assemble

13     all of them.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  [Previous translation continues] ...

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, the question -- there are three

16     questions there.  Mr. Mikulicic says therefore not all special police

17     unit members were part of this collective group, as it were, some of them

18     remained with their original police administration didn't they, question,

19     but, and then goes on to say under whose command were those police

20     members.

21             So there are two questions there which presupposes --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And then the witness, of course, created the

23     order that was lost a bit in the question.  He said as long as they

24     stayed back with their own police administration.  So the slight disorder

25     in the question was then corrected by the witness.

Page 6283

 1             Is there anything else, Ms. Mahindaratne?

 2             MR. MIKULICIC:  In fact, I don't understand what is your concern,

 3     Ms. Mahindaratne.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, my concern was that the witness

 6     had not been given the opportunity to answer.  In fact, there was a

 7     separate -- it was a separate collective and I think the words were -- I

 8     lost it here.  Those police units that were attached to the police

 9     administration were in fact stood out separate from the police sector.

10     That --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That, I had no difficulties in understanding

12     the question and apparently I take it from the answer that the witness

13     had no problem either.  Although there could be some criticism on the

14     question because it is unclear what police members were actually manned,

15     the ones who stayed behind or the ones who were not staying behind.  But

16     the witness clarified the issue perfectly.

17             But, Mr. Cayley, you might be of a different --

18             MR. CAYLEY:  No, Your Honour, I got no comment on this.  There's

19     a mistake in the transcript.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. CAYLEY:  Page 93, line 5 it says General Cermak, and the

22     witness said General Markac.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I have to get the transcript.

24             MR. MIKULICIC:  That is of course reason for concern, if I may

25     add.

Page 6284

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that.  Let me just check again.

 2     93, line 5.

 3             I re-read it.  I don't know whether it is a translation or -- I

 4     can't say.  I will -- Mr. Janic, your answer -- an answer you gave was

 5     that -- and it was about the command over the group like the one formed

 6     within the special police sector, you said they were under the operative

 7     command of the chief of the special police sector.

 8             Of course, if you look at the chain of command there is also

 9     general, and then my recollection tells me that you said Markac and not

10     as it appears on the transcript, Cermak.  Is that correctly understood?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your Honour, General

12     Markac.  I never mentioned General Cermak.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  May I proceed, Your Honour.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may.  However, I would need three minutes

16     to read a decision, so if you would -- you have three minutes left now.

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  Well, then I will put just one or two questions.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] I assume that much is clear.  When special

19     police are within their own police administration area, their work is

20     bankrolled by their administration?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, could both of the witness's

22     microphones be switched on.  We can't hear him.  Thank you.

23             MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

24        A.   May I repeat this.  Each of the special units are part of some

25     police administration, rather they have an annual budget all of their

Page 6285

 1     logistics and all of their materials, necessities were bank rolled by

 2     that police administration.

 3        Q.   Nevertheless when these collective forces are set up, how does

 4     the financing aspect work for these collective forces?  Do they have a

 5     budget of their own?

 6        A.   When that is the case, these forces don't really have their own

 7     budget, but the finance administration which is part of the Ministry of

 8     the Interior then looks after any logistical needs that these collective

 9     forces might have.  They use our services and we physically supply to

10     them the material and foodstuffs.  But we didn't have our own budget.  It

11     was the Ministry of Interior through their financial sector that provided

12     everything that we needed for as long as we were part of these collective

13     forces.

14        Q.   So it's --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Can counsel please repeat the question.  The

16     interpreter did not understand the syntax, thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please repeat the question because the

18     interpreter it difficulties in following you.

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  I see that.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] My question was this:  We have a situation when

21     these collective forces are set up.  When you have members from these

22     police administrations that are now part of these collective forces but

23     they are no longer bank rolled or financed, if you like, by their

24     original police administrations.  Is that right?

25        A.   Yes, that is right.

Page 6286

 1             MR. MIKULICIC: [Previous translation continues] ... examination,

 2     Your Honour, regarding your advice.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  Before I read this --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  I'm sorry, I meant for today.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes, yes.  That's how you understood you,

 6     Mr. Mikulicic.

 7             Before I read the decision I don't think that the witness has to

 8     remain present.

 9             Mr. Janic, I'd like to -- no, no.  Could I -- yes, before you

10     leave the courtroom, I'd like to instruct you that you should not speak

11     with anyone about your testimony, whether already given or still to be

12     given and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same

13     courtroom.  Thank you.

14             I will then now deliver the Chamber's decision on the

15     Prosecution's motion for evidence to be presented via video-conference

16     link and submission of Rule 92 ter statements and associated exhibits for

17     witness 53.  The Chamber defers the part of the part of the motion

18     dealing with the submission of witness statements and one exhibit

19     pursuant to Rule 92 ter to the time when the witness will testify.  This

20     decision deals merely with the part of the motion to hear witness 53 via

21     video-conference link.  The proposed date of testimony is the 17th of

22     July, 2008.  The Defence for the three accused responded on the 9th and

23     10th July that they do not oppose the part of the motion requesting

24     testimony via video-conference link.

25             According to Rule 81 bis of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and

Page 6287

 1     Evidence, a Chamber may order that proceedings be conducted by way of

 2     video-conference link if this is consistent with the interests of

 3     justice.  As previously set out by this Chamber, the standard of Rule

 4     81 bis is met if a witness is unable to come to the Tribunal, if the

 5     testimony is sufficiently important to make it unfair to the requesting

 6     party to proceed without it, and if the accused is not prejudiced in his

 7     or her right to confront the witness.

 8             The Prosecution submits that the witness is unable to come to

 9     The Hague to testify due to a back disorder.  According to a medical

10     certificate attached to the Prosecution's motion, the disorder makes

11     Witness 53 unfit to travel.  The Chamber is satisfied that the witness is

12     unable to come to the Tribunal.  Having reviewed the two witness

13     statements made by the witness in 2003 and 2007, the Chamber accepts that

14     the testimony is sufficiently important to make it unfair to the

15     Prosecution to proceed without it.

16             Finally, the Defence has not argued and the Chamber does not find

17     that the accused will be prejudiced in the exercise of their right to

18     confront the witness if testimony via video-conference link is granted.

19             For the foregoing reasons, the Chamber finds that it is

20     consistent with the interests of justice to hear the testimony of witness

21     53 via video-conference link and grants the motion.

22             The Chamber requests the registrar to make the necessary

23     arrangements for a video-conference link for the testimony on or about

24     the 17th of July, 2008.

25             And this conclude the Chamber's decision.

Page 6288

 1             As far as Witness 172 is concerned, I have not yet -- the Chamber

 2     has not yet prepared a decision in such detail as I just read for witness

 3     53.  However, because we first wanted to look at the Gotovina Defence

 4     objections against hearing witness 172's testimony through video link,

 5     the Chamber has meanwhile considered it and the Chamber came to the

 6     conclusion that it will granted motion in respect of video link testimony

 7     for witness 172 as well.  And I put this now on the record mainly to

 8     facilitate the preparations for the Registrar.  A similar -- a decision

 9     like I just read for Witness 53 will be read for Witness 172 once we have

10     prepared it.

11             We stand adjourned until tomorrow.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Ms. Mahindaratne.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm waiting.

15             Sorry, Mr. President, before Court adjourns, may I formally ask

16     that the documents submitted from the bar table yesterday be admitted

17     into evidence.  After Court adjourns I will meet with Mr. Registrar and

18     indicate what documents to be left out from the --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, Ms. Mahindaratne, don't be

20     surprised that the Chamber usually wants to have a look at these

21     documents before taking any decisions in respect of that so it is fine

22     that you have chose an efficient way of tendering them but we can't give

23     a decision at this moment without having looked at the documents.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President, I just wanted to make a

25     formal --

Page 6289

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  You mean a formal application.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The formal application is now on the record

 4     and then again the list is filed?

 5             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It was filed with the registry in the usual way or

 7     just communicated with us?

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  It is filed as in, Mr. President, it was

 9     e-mailed to the Registry, and I don't know whether that would be

10     considered as sufficient formal filing.  I believe that has been

11     according to procedure so far it has been considered as filed.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, if we would then grant it, it should be

13     somewhere on the record what documents actually we are talking about and

14     therefore -- but I think the practice was that be the registrar would

15     then file the list on which he has already added the exhibit numbers and

16     then once the Chamber decides to admit this in evidence, that then the

17     registrar will file the final list so that we all know what we're talking

18     about.

19             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, may I make a suggestion, given the

21     fact that some of the documents we are using in cross-examination are

22     already on the bar table list that we wait until Mr. Janic's testimony is

23     done so we can see what duplication there is and we can avoid the

24     duplication and that way, we can have a chance to look at the documents

25     themselves.

Page 6290

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no problem with that as a practical solution.

 2     Nevertheless, we should be aware then that we work on the basis of the

 3     assumption that these documents would be admitted, because otherwise if

 4     we only deal with the matter once Mr. Janic has gone then of course we

 5     are too late to put any questions in relation to those documents to him.

 6             If that is understood by all parties then for the practical

 7     purposes of avoiding duplicates, I would not object.

 8             Anything else?

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we adjourn until tomorrow, Friday, 11th of

13     July, 9.00, Courtroom II.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day of July,

16                           2008, at 9.00 a.m.