Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6811

 1                           Monday, 21 July 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around this

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             If there are no procedural issues to deal with, I would like to

12     ask the Prosecution whether it's ready to call its next witness.

13             Mr. Waespi.

14             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, Mr. President.  Good morning, Your Honours.

15     The Prosecution calls Mr. Alun Roberts.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Roberts

17     into the courtroom.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Roberts.

20             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

22     Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

23     you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24     Madam Usher now hands out to you the solemn declaration.  May I invite

25     you to make that solemn declaration.

Page 6812

 1             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  I solemnly declare that I will speak

 2     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated, Mr. Roberts.

 4             Mr. Roberts, you'll first be examined by Mr. Waespi, who is

 5     counsel for the Prosecution.

 6             Mr. Waespi, please proceed.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           WITNESS:  ALUN ROBERTS

 9                           Examination by Mr. Waespi:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Roberts.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   Can you please state your full name for the record.

13        A.   My full name is Alun Richard Roberts.

14        Q.   And please observe a pause between my questions and your answers,

15     and you can look at the cursor that is moving in front of you on the

16     screen and when it stops moving it's safe for you to start answering.

17             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if the witness could be given copies

18     of his six witness statements.

19        Q.   Mr. Roberts, do you recall giving six witness statements to

20     the ICTY?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22             MR. WAESPI:  And, Mr. President, Your Honours, these six witness

23     statements have the following 65 ter numbers:  The first one dates

24     27th August 1997, 65 ter 5320; the second statement dates 31st July 1998,

25     65 ter number 4811; the third statement, 28th February 2007, 65 ter

Page 6813

 1     number 4812; fourth statement, 7th February 2008, 65 ter number 4813;

 2     fifth statement, 4th March 2008, 65 ter number 4814; and the sixth

 3     statement, 2nd July -- in fact, it's dated 2nd July, but it was taken on

 4     the 30th June and 1st of July, 2008, 65 ter number 5321.

 5        Q.   Mr. Roberts, did you have a chance to review these six statements

 6     before coming to court today?

 7        A.   Yes, I have reviewed them.  Thank you.

 8        Q.   And do these statements accurately reflect your declarations on

 9     the matters covered?

10        A.   They reflect what I said at the time of making those statements,

11     yes.

12        Q.   And do those statements accurately reflect what you would say if

13     examined today on these matters here in court?

14        A.   Yes, they do.

15             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if these six statements could be

16     tendered as exhibits.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You've forgotten one question, Mr. Waespi.  The

18     witness said:  It reflects what I said.  I would give the same answers,

19     but whether they are truthful answers is not yet covered by your two

20     questions.

21             MR. WAESPI:

22        Q.   And do these statements -- would these statements, are they

23     truthful answers to what you were asked?

24        A.   Thank you.  I made them truthfully, and I declare that I still

25     consider them to be made truthfully.  Thank you.

Page 6814

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I would not expect otherwise, but this is the

 2     series of questions and as covered now.  If they were all lies, of

 3     course, that's not what I suggest in any way, then it would have been

 4     lies and it still be lies, which, of course, is not the purpose of this

 5     exercise.

 6             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             If these six statements could be tendered into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             Mr. Misetic, from your latest submission, I saw that, at least,

11     there are no objections against admission of the 92 ter statements?

12             MR. MISETIC:  That is correct, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             MR. MISETIC:  The only issue that I noted this morning, which I'm

15     not sure if it's a mistake or not, but on the 5th, 6th, 7th February,

16     2008, there's a current occupation listed, and I wasn't sure if that was

17     accurate or not.  Perhaps Mr. Waespi can take a look.  If it is, that's

18     fine.  I just thought for the purposes of clarity.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             Madam Registrar, we'll go through them one by one.

21             Witness statement 27th of August, 1997, would be ... ?

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P675.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P675 is admitted into evidence.

24             Next one would be witness statement 31st of July, 1998 ... ?

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P676.

Page 6815

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  P676 is admitted into evidence.

 2             The third one is witness statement 28th of February, 2007.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P677.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P677 is admitted into evidence.

 5             The supplementary witness statement dated the 7th of February,

 6     2008 ... ?

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P678.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P678 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Next one 4 March 2008 ... ?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P679.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  P679 is admitted into evidence.

12             And, finally, the further supplementary witness statement dated

13     the 2nd of July, 2008 ... ?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit P680, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:

16             Mr. Waespi.

17             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             There are a number of exhibits that I'd like to tender.  Given

19     the objections by the Cermak Defence of three exhibits and by the

20     Gotovina Defence of six exhibits, I suggest that during the course of my

21     examination-in-chief, I'll be pulling up these six exhibits and lay a

22     foundation with the witness and then we can argue of its admissibility.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             Now, before putting something to the witness, I think there's

25     also request to have them -- some of these documents to be added to the

Page 6816

 1     65 ter list.

 2             Is there any objection against that as such, so apart from -- of

 3     course, you might say that if they can't be admitted, what's the use of

 4     putting them only the 65 ter list?  But would that not be over

 5     formalistic?

 6             MR. MISETIC:  No.  That wasn't what I was going to say, Your

 7     Honour.  I think, in our filing yesterday, we indicated that there are

 8     several that are duplicates.  So I'm not sure if the Prosecution had a

 9     chance to review it and wishes to retender them or not.  But other than

10     that, no, Your Honour, we have no objection.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I suggest that we proceed as follows.

12             Mr. Waespi, have you looked at possible duplicates?

13             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, it's correct.  The Cermak Defence and also the

14     Gotovina Defence discovered that.  Those 65 ter exhibits were already on

15     our original list, and they don't need to be applied for again.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Then if they're already on your list, no duplicates

17     as far as documents sought to be admitted are concerned?

18             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I suggest that we proceed that we first

20     hear the questions Mr. Waespi will put to the witness; that we'll finally

21     deal with admission; and at once not to split them out, now deal with

22     half of them and then the others ones.  But those who were not contested

23     there, we work on a basis of the assumption that they will be admitted

24     into evidence.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

Page 6817

 1             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Mr. Roberts, can you very briefly give a summary of your

 3     professional background and experience prior to your assignment in the

 4     United Nations force in the Krajina.  I see from your February 2008

 5     statement, which is now P678, that you were in South Africa.  That's at

 6     page 2, paragraph 5.  Can you briefly, very, very briefly, summarize your

 7     experience.

 8        A.   I was not so much in South Africa.  I was working in my former

 9     profession as a journalist for two agencies, and I was covering the war

10     in northern Namibia, which was then occupied by South African defence

11     forces, and the war in southern Angola.  And I worked for a correspondent

12     for a news agency called the Namibian, based in Windhoek, the capital of

13     Namibian, as well as research for the UK Manchester-based TV station,

14     KRNA Television, for its world and action programme on a documentary

15     about the war in southern Angola.  And I covered that period about

16     between 1985 and 1989, and it gave me an opportunity to see the grim

17     realities of war first-hand as a correspondent, including a range of

18     activities between military and civilian locations.  I think that sums

19     that up a little bit.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

21             Now, did you also work for the ICC, International Criminal Court,

22     here in The Hague?

23        A.   Yes, I have.  I had a post as a senior public information officer

24     from about the 2nd of August, last year, to the end of last year prior to

25     them assigning a full-time spokesperson.  And my assignment was on policy

Page 6818

 1     making regarding the responsibilities and conduct of court officials in

 2     regard to talking to the media, public speaking engagements, and those

 3     kind of policy directives.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.  Let's turn to the events you came to

 5     testify about, and we'll start with the events in Knin.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if we could go and pull up witness

 7     statement 31st July 1998, which is now P676, at page 4, paragraph 3.  And

 8     in B/C/S, it's page 5 in the middle.  If the English version -- yes.

 9             Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10        Q.   I'll read out a few lines from the middle of the English version

11     where it starts:  "From those observations ..."

12             That's the third paragraph.

13             "From those observations, I estimate that about 200 civilian

14     locations were hit during the shelling ..."

15             And that, of course, refers to the events in Knin on the 4th and

16     5th of August, 1995.

17             "This would include roofs of apartment buildings and houses that

18     were hit or suffered damage from shrapnel, from the shelling, shattered

19     windows, et cetera.

20             "That the shelling affected the whole length of Knin, I observed

21     four separate civilian buildings at either end of the town and in the

22     middle of the town (on which a large amount of shelling was concentrated)

23     as a further indication that the shelling was not just concentrated on

24     military and official building locations of the 'RSK' authorities."

25             And then you go on to describe at least four civilian locations.

Page 6819

 1             MR. WAESPI:  If 65 ter number 5330, this is a map, could be

 2     pulled up, please.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Roberts, the first four locations marked with H, L, K --

 4     H, I, K, and L, are these those four civilian buildings you observed

 5     being shelled?

 6        A.   Just let me take a really good look to be really sure the map

 7     coincides with everything, but could you just put the picture as it is on

 8     the screen so I can see the actual list of -- right.  Yes.  Those are the

 9     four locations that I observed that I said in that statement, for me,

10     depict the shelling affected was the word I used, "affected," the entire

11     town of Knin H, I, L -- H, I, K, and L.

12        Q.   And where were you when you made these observations?

13        A.   I was in my UN public information white UN vehicle.  I had seen

14     these amongst other locations in patrols since we were able to have

15     freedom of movement in the centre of Knin.  And I made these sightings in

16     regard to different locations in Knin, probably towards about the 17th or

17     the latter part of August, as being just representing a focus of the

18     happenings of the shelling and the bombardment that took place on the

19     4th and the 5th of August.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if this photo could be tendered,

21     please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P681.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P681 is admitted into evidence.

Page 6820

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             If we could move on to the next 65 ter, that's just the following

 4     number, 5331, please.

 5        Q.   And while that's being done, can you tell the Trial Chamber where

 6     you were during the shelling on the 4th, on the 5th?  It's contained in

 7     the various witness statements, just very, very briefly.

 8        A.   On the 4th of August, when the first bombardment of Knin

 9     commenced at about 5.00, I was in my apartment accommodation on the top

10     floor of a building just off from the centre of Knin.  Most of the detail

11     of what happened is explained in my statement.

12             I left there after being assisted by a UN armoured patrol

13     carrier.  At about 8.40, we were taken by Canadian peacekeepers in the

14     APC to other parts of Knin up and along towards the police station and

15     the former so-called RSK military barracks to pick up other people on the

16     main road.  We then collected them and returned back down the main road

17     past the centre of town along to the Krka river and into the UN Sector

18     South compound.  I was there for some days and nights following.

19        Q.   Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Roberts.  I think that suffices for the

20     moment because we are focusing on the shelling of Knin.

21             Now, on this map -- or rather, photo, we see A, accommodation.

22     Is that your accommodation as you had described just a moment ago?

23        A.   Yes, that is.  That white speck building on the corner of the

24     road there, that was my accommodation in Knin at the time of the

25     shelling.

Page 6821

 1        Q.   And the other locations depicted here in the map and explained in

 2     the legends, what do these mean?

 3        A.   Let's take those slowly one by one.

 4             The capital B with the line running across the photo there is an

 5     apartment block building that was directly visible in front of my top

 6     floor balcony of my accommodation.  The top parapet of that building I

 7     saw damaged when I could get up to the balcony after the main bulk of

 8     shelling had subsided.  After about one and a quarter hours, I saw that

 9     it had an impact.

10             B1 denotes the body of a man I saw lying on the sidewalk.  C is

11     the building to the right of the road running directly opposite from my

12     balcony.  It was a house more than an apartment block, as I think can be

13     seen from the photo, and I saw smoke rising from the far right-hand

14     corner of that building.

15             D is a building which I could see from the front edge looking to

16     the right of my balcony, but I would ask the Court to remember there is a

17     considerable elevation that goes up from my building and from the railway

18     line and the main road in Knin going up towards the fortress.  So I

19     couldn't see completely clearly the roof-top depicted on the image

20     there, D.  But when looking carefully at maps and sketches of maps, that

21     is the building where I saw smoke rising from the top far side of the

22     roof.

23             Going to E, now in my statement of 1998, I describe how I was

24     lying in the centre part of the accommodation building on the second

25     floor with the family I was staying with and that I heard shells going

Page 6822

 1     over the top of our building at a kind of slight angle.  Obviously, then,

 2     I couldn't see them, but they appeared to be going to the back and up.

 3     And this is only my assessment of where those shells might have fallen,

 4     but I've labelled it as E.

 5             Now, F is the body of a woman.  It's on the street to my right,

 6     which I could see from the corner of the balcony, who was lying face

 7     down.  G is something on this symbol as labelled third body; but in my

 8     statement, it's at the end of the street, beyond the house which is

 9     labelled C that I saw having damage.  And I could not be sure at all

10     because of the distance - it's about 80 metres, a bit more perhaps - if

11     this was a body or not.  So I have not in my actual statement said it

12     was.  It could have been but I wasn't sure because of that distance

13     balcony top of the building.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.  Just to make it clear, at what time, on

15     which date did you observe those points you just made?

16        A.   It would be the morning of the 4th of August after I had got up

17     on the balcony to make some assessments.  It was after the shelling had

18     died down at about half past 6.00 onwards.  I can't be precisely sure,

19     but it was a little bit after the main bulk of shelling had subsided.

20             It was not, by the way, for the Court just one visit to the top

21     of the balcony to look.  I made several visits in the course of maybe

22     half an hour or 45 minutes where I could make observations, detect maybe

23     a little bit about the rate of impact of shelling coming in, which had

24     subsided at that time, after about an hour and a quarter.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

Page 6823

 1             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if this photo could be tendered,

 2     please.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

 4             Madam Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P682.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P682 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

 8             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             If P -- if 65 ter number 5329 could be brought up.  This is a

10     larger collection of photographs, and I would like to see first page 3

11     and then page 5.

12        Q.   Mr. Roberts, can you tell us what is depicted here?

13        A.   It would be useful to have a map to help the Court perhaps, but I

14     can describe it quite well.  I think it's also on a map we might see

15     later.  If you go up from the main street just after the so-called RSK

16     government buildings, you climb a very steep elevation, and you're going

17     up the road away from the centre of town opposite what was the so-called

18     super-market at that time.  And you go up steeply, and you reach some

19     concrete steps on the road that goes around to the right, but you climb

20     upwards directly.  You come to a dirt road at that time, and you turn to

21     your left.  As you're going left you on both sides have civilian

22     buildings, bungalows most of them.

23             And this building here, if you're walking along - if I can help

24     the Court to imagine - if you're walking along from the top of those

25     steps, you've gone about a hundred metres, maybe less.  You can see two

Page 6824

 1     buildings on the dirt road.  The balcony on the left-hand side is the

 2     edge of one building.  You can see an impact in the roof of that

 3     building, which I felt was accommodation building, top roof was hit.  And

 4     I made the observation that this was some distance away from the centre

 5     of town; and as I reflected elsewhere in the statements, I felt it to be

 6     beyond what I would observe to be legitimate military objects.  It's the

 7     top end of town away from the centre up the elevation climbing towards

 8     civilian houses.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.  We'll show you a map in a moment.  Let's

10     go to the next photo --

11             MR. WAESPI:  And, Mr. President, I'd like to tender all these 31

12     photos that are part of this 65 ter number 5329 at the end of having

13     discussed two examples, if that's fine.

14        Q.   Mr. Roberts --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we know whether there will be any objections,

16     because then you might choose --

17             MR. MISETIC:  I do have a -- I don't think it's been disclosed,

18     the foundation for the pictures in particular at the time they were

19     taken.  I notice the lack of leaves on the trees, so if we could have

20     some foundation as to when the pictures were taken.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Waespi, if you could please deal with that

22     for the whole series of photographs.

23             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, I will certainly do that.

24        Q.   Now, these photographs, who took these photographs, Mr. Roberts?

25        A.   I took these photographs, and I think it's a fair question.  They

Page 6825

 1     were taken later on.  I took some photographs in late August/early

 2     September.  These were taken -- these particular photographs we're

 3     looking at now were taken probably towards the late part of

 4     September/early October maybe.

 5             This particular building is on the same dirt road.  If you

 6     recalled the building we just saw a moment ago, it's about 30 metres to

 7     the left of that building.  This building is just down from the dirt

 8     road; and if you went beyond that roof and turn right a little bit, you

 9     come to the steps, concrete steps, that go down to the street and then

10     down the street into the centre of town.  It was a civilian

11     accommodation.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

13             MR. WAESPI:  And for everybody's benefit, the witness explained

14     the date these pictures were taken and the locations in his witness

15     statement, the last one, which is now P680, on the last page.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that sufficiently deal with the foundation

17     matter?

18             MR. MISETIC:  Actually, if I could have a moment, Your Honour.

19             Is there a paragraph number, Counsel, that you could give me?

20             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, 32.  It starts in the second-to-the-last page

21     and finishes discussing each of the photographs on the last page of P680.

22             MR. MISETIC:  So the location -- I'm sorry to ask these

23     questions.  But in light of the fact that we've had the map -- the first

24     map admitted into evidence as to where the witness says he saw damage to

25     civilian buildings, is this -- are these now different locations; and if

Page 6826

 1     so, are these pictures of buildings below the Knin castle?

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, this is correct.  I wanted to use a map once

 3     these photos are dealt with, go back to map P681.  We can do that, and

 4     the witness can indicate, as he suggested, where these photographs were

 5     taken.

 6             But if the Defence is satisfied, if these photos can be moved

 7     into evidence.  We can also go back to the map right now, Mr. President,

 8     if you want me to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Still the -- we are talking about the

10     photographs dealt with in paragraph 32?

11             MR. WAESPI:  This is correct of the last witness statement dated

12     30 June -- 31st July 2008.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, let me just see.  One second, please.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt you, bit I also

15     note that the -- it says the date the photos are taken is 18 August 1995,

16     which would seem to be --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm struggling a bit also with the dates

18     because the witness said, "We're looking at these pictures of these two

19     buildings," and you said, "These photographs, who took them?"  And the

20     witness said, "I took some in late August/early September."  And then ...

21             Yes, Mr. Waespi, about the dates, I do not see any photograph on

22     this list.  I see one from mid-October, that's the cemetery, which

23     apparently is not the one we have on our screen.  And all the others are

24     either August or early September.

25             Now, I'm not familiar with the seasons there.  Would that have

Page 6827

 1     been early September?

 2             MR. WAESPI:  I can ask the witness.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 4             MR. WAESPI:

 5        Q.   Mr. Roberts, in your witness statement, you say that, in

 6     paragraph 32, that it was taken around the 18th August 1995.  Do you want

 7     to qualify this answer?

 8        A.   Yes, I can do.  I mean, I was taking photographs from quite

 9     shortly after Operation Storm, and I took a good many -- I had taken

10     photographs in that same dirt road about that time.  These may be, on

11     reflection, been taken -- these specific ones may have been taken in the

12     later part of September, but they clearly were buildings I observed.  And

13     whether the photographs on that dirt road were taken in August, maybe

14     that's part of the confusion.  But --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not very familiar with how leaves look at the

16     end of September in Knin, but I'm -- to say the least, I'm a bit

17     surprised by it.

18             Mr. Roberts, we see some vegetation which has a look.  And if we

19     go through the series, then I think it's always one photograph followed

20     by a number page.  If we then, in this series, would go to the second

21     photograph, we've seen that.

22             THE WITNESS:  Two and three, I think, Your Honour, on the --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Two and three appears -- at least in many

24     countries in the world, this looks like late autumn, not one single leaf

25     left on the trees.  And in the back, we see some green, but I can't

Page 6828

 1     identify whether that is leaf trees or needle trees.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Well, certainly they were taken by me, and the date

 3     could be something towards the end of September.  But I don't know how it

 4     could be taken much into October because I was transferred from Knin

 5     around the middle of October, so I don't think I would concur that they

 6     were taken somehow in the -- in the early/mid/deep winter.  They were

 7     taken certainly no later than the end of September.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But that's, of course, a conclusion saying,

 9     Since I wasn't there anymore, the photographs couldn't be from that date,

10     or these are different photographs, or -- I mean, you are at this moment

11     in the process of drawing conclusions rather than to identify --

12             THE WITNESS:  I did take these photographs.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You did take them?

14             THE WITNESS:  I did take these photographs, and the description

15     I've given is accurate, and the latest date I could have taken them would

16     be towards the end of September.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not return after that date to the place?

18             THE WITNESS:  I returned, yes, but not to this place to take

19     photographs.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like to tender these

22     30 documents -- photographs.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, with the position that we believe that

24     this is beyond October --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, of course, that's also --

Page 6829

 1             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, that's fine.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to some extent speculation.  So if -- well, I

 3     wouldn't say --

 4             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... all right.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- wild speculation, Mr. Misetic, but at least it's

 6     also based on assumptions which have not yet been verified.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, this document which is a series of,

 9     I think, 31 photographs --

10             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- and 62 pages of photographs separated by numbers

12     coming after the photograph would be number ... ?

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit Number P683, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P683 is admitted into evidence.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. WAESPI:

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Roberts, if we can go back to the map P681, and I'd like

18     to ask you to mark on this map, if you can, the location of these two

19     houses you just described a moment ago, if Madam Usher could assist you

20     in doing that.

21        A.   How do you move the cursor?  I'm sorry.

22        Q.   Yes.  You have to be a little bit patient.  Madam Usher is coming

23     to help you.

24        A.   Oh, okay.

25        Q.   If you can please mark those two houses we've seen on those two

Page 6830

 1     photographs.  If you recall the first one, that should be the first one,

 2     and you would attach once you have found it a number 1 next to it.

 3        A.   They're on the dirt road --

 4        Q.   Would it assist if the image would be --

 5        A.   Yes, please.

 6        Q.   -- larger, zoomed in.

 7        A.   The buildings are quite -- the buildings are quite close together

 8     where the letter K is on that.

 9        Q.   I think you can also describe it using K -- in fact, the circle

10     that depicts the location of K as your reference point.

11        A.   Just to be clear, I think it's not easy from this map in the way

12     that the circle around K is drawn.  This is the edge of the dirt road

13     that runs along the top, and it's a very, very small road and it's not

14     picked out clearly on this whole diagram or sketch map.  But the two

15     buildings were close together around whereabout the circle marked K is.

16     That is the area of those two buildings.

17        Q.   Very well.  I don't think you need to mark it then.

18             MR. WAESPI:  And I don't think we need a new exhibit.  We just

19     leave it as P681.

20        Q.   Now if we can continue, all these locations, were these civilian

21     locations or what you perceived at that time as military facilities, if

22     you know?

23        A.   I consider these to be civilian locations, civilian

24     accommodation.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.  Let's move on to -- away from the

Page 6831

 1     shelling and to other observations you made.  In your witness statement,

 2     the second one, 31st of July, 1998, which is now P676, you made the

 3     following observation.  And I quote from page 1, paragraph 3; in B/C/S,

 4     it's also the first page.

 5             "During the course of the 'Operation Storm' attack on Knin, my

 6     job was to represent the United Nations observations of what we, the HQ

 7     Sector South UN personnel, saw taking place.  And to continue doing that

 8     over the weeks that followed were a consistent pattern of orchestrated

 9     arson, systematic looting, on what I would describe as a mass scale, and

10     many incidents of deliberate killing and murder took place.  The latter

11     on many occasions from the bodies I observed personally, sometimes within

12     hours of the incidents, were elderly people, all of which were dressed in

13     civilian clothes."

14             Now, on what basis did you make this comment in your witness

15     statement?

16        A.   I made that statement from my presence in Knin on the 4th of

17     August of what I observed then, but especially in regard to my own

18     personal presence with members of the United Nations Human Rights Action

19     Teams visiting many villages and hamlets in the outlying areas around

20     Knin, as well as a wider area of the former Sector South as we began to

21     get greater and better freedom of movement.  I also, as the public

22     information officer, was privileged to have all of the reports in my

23     office from the four UN battalions, KenBat, CanBat, CzechBat, and JorBat

24     information officers in the sector; all of the daily situation reports of

25     the United Nations military observers; the daily sitreps of the

Page 6832

 1     UN civilian police; the Human Rights Action Team reports; the military

 2     information officer's reports; as well as the reports of the humanitarian

 3     and political affairs officers who were, all of them, at various points

 4     out in the field on a regular, daily basis from after the 8th of August.

 5     I referred to those reports as well as what I also saw personally in

 6     making that description here in the 1998 statement.

 7             MR. WAESPI:  Let's move to 65 ter 5324, which is a PIO report of

 8     12th October 1995.

 9        Q.   Mr. Roberts, do you recognise this document; and if so, what is

10     it?

11        A.   Yes, I recognise this document.  This is a document that I

12     prepared myself on -- dated 12th of August, but I prepared it maybe a

13     week or ten days before.  And what it is intended to do is to bring

14     together in one place, for us as a public information department and my

15     colleagues in the mission headquarters in Zagreb, a representation of

16     what is contained or what was contained in the various UN reports of

17     UNMOs, UN Human Rights Action Teams, UNCIVPOL, and others, of where

18     they'd seen really and seen personally and where they said, We saw, I

19     saw, acts of serious human rights violations conducted by members of the

20     Croatian army or people in military uniform which the UN personnel

21     concluded were Croatian army soldiers or personnel.

22             And the whole report is a selection.  There were more, but I

23     thought were representative of the descriptions and the work done

24     especially by UNCIVPOL.  And just briefly, I chose UNCIVPOL because their

25     reports were quite descriptive with a grid reference and also because

Page 6833

 1     maybe I was completely wrong but I felt that it was possible maybe some

 2     part of UNCIVPOL might continue after the finalisation of the UNCRO

 3     mandate, which did not happen.  But I relied upon their reports

 4     especially.  And in their reports, as well as the UN action teams, the

 5     latter part of that report includes summaries of interviews mostly by

 6     UNCIVPOL with civilians who said to UN people what they had seen and saw,

 7     and then showed UNCIVPOL and UN human rights personnel various evidence

 8     of serious or violent human rights situations that we thought credible.

 9             Each one of the references in the report, I have sourced with the

10     particular UNCIVPOL or UN Human Rights Action Team or UN UNMO report from

11     which I looked and read the information before setting down the various

12     paragraphs representing what the UN have seen in that document.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.  Let's turn to page 2, and we see here

14     quite a number of international journalists.  I'd like to ask you first:

15     Have you seen -- have you worked with at that time in the Knin area with

16     all these journalists that are listed here?

17        A.   This is a selection of the many international and regional press

18     who came through our press office to either use the equipment, computers,

19     sometimes to type stories, to request assistance in meeting UN personnel

20     who might give them information, and sometimes request assistance of

21     perhaps accompanying UN personnel on their trips into the field,

22     especially UN Human Rights Action Team and UNMOs and CIVPOL.

23             I met with almost all these people, they passed our office, they

24     are amongst -- they are a selection of many more international and local

25     press.

Page 6834

 1        Q.   I'm interested in two names.  The first one is Robert Fisk, he's

 2     listed here under Independent newspaper UK, 3 September; and Christiane

 3     Amanpour, CNN, 2nd October.

 4             In relation to Mr. Fisk, when do you recall having met with him,

 5     if you have, indeed, met with him?

 6        A.   Robert Fisk came several times to report on the situation in

 7     Sector South and Croatia.  He was there maybe a few weeks before this,

 8     but he'd come back and was there from about eight to ten days from just

 9     before, I think, the 3rd of September.  And he went out into the villages

10     around Knin and produced, I think, three or four reports for the

11     Independent, which is a newspaper based in London, UK.

12             Ms. Amanpour had also been in Sector South previously.  Like

13     Robert Fisk, she was covering the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina especially,

14     but she made several trips into Croatia and Sector South.  And that date

15     there is the date that she was in our office.

16             But these dates on the right are just the date that I put down

17     that they were in the office.  They were coming and going quite

18     frequently.  Some of them -- others made maybe just one visit on the way

19     through.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if this document could be exhibited.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

23             Madam Registrar.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P684.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  P684 is admitted into evidence.

Page 6835

 1             MR. WAESPI:  Now, Mr. President, I would like to play a tape

 2     which is a news report by Christiane Amanpour for CNN.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It's a video, may I take it?

 4             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  It's a four-minute video which has a

 5     transcript.  It was given to, I think, the interpreters, and I believe

 6     Mr. Kay has an objection.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  It's a broad-ranging objection in

 9     relation to this particular piece of evidence as well as the Fisk

10     articles.  These are, of course, reports by other people, not this

11     witness.  This witness may have known the people, he may have known that

12     they were in the area at the time.  But the observations and report are

13     particular and peculiar to those journalists who are the ones writing the

14     material or, in this case, producing the news report.

15             I cannot understand the admissibility of material such as that

16     because one can easily see that a witness such as this or any other

17     witness could then be used as a vehicle to bring through whatever

18     newspaper reports containing the observations and thoughts of other

19     journalists to suit whatever purposes a particularly -- particular party

20     has within these proceedings.

21             In my submission, the evidence the Court must receive is this

22     witness's own observations, what he saw, what he heard, and keep it to

23     that.  To produce materials from people who are in some way connected to

24     him and then put them into evidence, in my submission, doesn't provide

25     this Court with a satisfactory means of receipt of evidence.

Page 6836

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I believe, first of all,

 3     these documents and videos have a value of their own as a piece of

 4     notice, general notice, that was aired or published.  We could actually

 5     submit them from the bar table, but the witness himself, as is reflected

 6     in his witness statements, had contacts with these two journalists.  He

 7     met with Mr. Fisk.  He actually accompanied him to one of the tours in

 8     Kistanje and Djevrska, and you'll see that when we pull up the article.

 9     So he adds, clearly, a foundation to these articles because he was there

10     and he talked to the journalist.

11             In relation to the CNN clip, Mr. Roberts even features in the CNN

12     clip.  He was interviewed by Christiane Amanpour, so we believe that

13     there is enough foundation to tender these media articles with

14     Mr. Roberts.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, the objection is denied.  As Mr. Waespi

17     rightly pointed out, if the witness was involved in one way or the other

18     in the production or was present during the production, he can say

19     something about it, which does not mean that everything that is said and

20     is photographed or is described is necessarily the ultimate truth.  But

21     under the circumstances, as presented by Mr. Waespi, there -- the general

22     objection as phrased by you is denied.  But, of course, we'll first now

23     have a look at the material, and then finally decide on admission.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

25             MR. WAESPI:  [Microphone not activated]

Page 6837

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  If 65 ter number 5333 video could be played, and it

 3     lasts approximately four minutes.

 4                           [Videotape played]

 5             Unknown present:  "The three sides in the Bosnian conflict have

 6     been accused of committing atrocities, all of them at one time.  Today,

 7     the Croats have been singled out for mistreating the Serbs in the

 8     Krajina.  The UN high commissioner for human rights has written Croatia's

 9     President Tudjman, accusing his forces of continued killing in Krajina.

10     CNN's Christiane Amanpour has an example.

11              Christiane Amanpour:  "UN soldiers show journalists what they

12     found in the tiny village of Varivode a few days earlier.

13             Unknown soldier:  "We got blood-stains on the floor, we got two

14     entries wounds from rifle bullets or pistol in there, and then another

15     set of stains over the corner here.

16              Christiane Amanpour:  "UN soldiers say an elderly Serb couple

17     lived here.  The man was sick in bed-ridden.  Below their picture hanging

18     on the bedroom wall, we found a dog crouching in the corner as if in

19     mourning.  The soldiers believe the owners of this house were executed.

20             Unknown soldier:  "It's obvious that it wasn't shot from the

21     entrance but from here.  The bullet-holes like this [indiscernible].

22              Christiane Amanpour:  "We saw the same pattern in several nearby

23     homes, blood-stains on the ground, a cane lying nearby, a bullet-hole in

24     the wall, abandoned farm animals.  74-year-old Milan Pocrajec, a Serb, is

25     the only one left in this village.  He says he heard the shooting, but he

Page 6838

 1     didn't see anything and now he's terrified.

 2             Milan Pocrajec:  [B/C/S spoken]

 3             Christiane Amanpour:  "If they come and want to kill me, I can't

 4     do anything, he says.  I can't go anywhere.  The UN believes 12 Serb

 5     civilians were massacred in Varivode, among them Jovo and Milka Beric.

 6     According to identity papers they found, their bodies have been buried

 7     along with more than 200 others who were killed during and after the

 8     Croatian army retook the Krajina from the Serbs in August.  One hundred

 9     twenty-five of these graves are unmarked.  At first, Croatian authorities

10     denied the reports attributing them to biassed propaganda.  Later, they

11     blamed 'uncontrollable elements' and now they say they've arrested

12     several hundred people.  The UN says what's happening here is a

13     systematic campaign of intimidation.  Varivode is only the latest

14     destroyed village.  UN television has taken pictures of Serb houses

15     burning all over this region in the two months since the Croatian army

16     conquered it.  UN cameras found two elderly Serb men, one dressed in

17     pajamas shot through shot through the head, the other with his throat

18     slit.  European, UN, and US human rights reports say much of the killing,

19     burning, and looting is done by men in Croatian military uniforms and

20     armed civilians.  The US has protested.

21             John Shattuck:  " ... of these abuses need not have occurred on

22     this scale if the Croatian government had taken measures to prevent

23     them ...

24              Christiane Amanpour:  "Officially, Croatia says, Serbs who have

25     lived in the Krajina region for hundreds of years can stay, but the

Page 6839

 1     signals say others.

 2             Alun Roberts:  "We're seeing repeated signs of burning, looting,

 3     and killing of the remaining civilians.  There is no sign of any

 4     encouragement for those people to stay or for those who may have left to

 5     come back in any way at all.

 6              Christiane Amanpour:  "And as UN soldiers leave, they promise to

 7     come back and see Milan ... [overlapping speakers].

 8              Christiane Amanpour:  "If you you find me alive, he says, if you

 9     find me alive.

10             Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Varivode, Croatia."

11             MR. WAESPI:  I would like this tender this video-clip,

12     Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further observations, apart from the ones raised

14     by Mr. Kay?

15             Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P685.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  P685 would then include the video and the

18     transcript.  P685 is admitted into evidence.

19             You may proceed, Mr. Waespi.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Let me go back to the two articles by Mr. Fisk.  The first one is

22     65 ter number 963.

23        Q.   Now, the article, Mr. Roberts, talks about in the first paragraph

24     visits by Mr. Fisk to Kistanje and Djevrska.  Did you accompany Mr. Fisk

25     to these locations?

Page 6840

 1        A.   On that occasion, yes, I was with Robert Fisk when he made that

 2     report in Kistanje and Djevrska.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  I would like to tender this article, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Any objections, other than the one further raised by

 6     Mr. Kay?

 7             If not, Madam Registrar, this would be number?

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be P686, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P686 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. WAESPI:  And the next potential exhibit is 65 ter 5334.

11        Q.   Mr. Roberts, that's an article dated 14th September 1995, again

12     by Mr. Fisk.  And it features in the filled of the first page a

13     Lieutenant Simon Coley, and also at another location an Irish UN

14     investigator, just in the paragraph below, Bridin O'Rourke.

15             Are you familiar with these two persons, Mr. Coley and

16     Bridin O'Rourke?

17        A.   Yes, I am.  Mr. O'Rourke worked in the CIVPOL HQ office in Sector

18     South Knin, and Lieutenant Coley was an UNMO attached to UN military

19     observers in Sector South.

20        Q.   And do you know how Mr. Fisk got in touch with these two UN

21     persons?

22        A.   As I recall, what I would not all the time do, but have the

23     possibility to do, would be to have journalists go in the field with some

24     of our UN Human Rights Action Teams where I would not be present.  On

25     this occasion, I recall that Mr. Fisk was there during this visit doing

Page 6841

 1     his reports, and they were going out in the field, Lieutenant Coley and

 2     CIVPOL lady, and O'Rourke.  I inquired from them, Could a journalist go

 3     with them.  Fisk was interested, and he went with them on that occasion.

 4     I did not accompany them.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts?

 6             MR. WAESPI:  I would like to tender this document, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  I am told that neither this document or the CNN

 9     video-clip are on the 65 ter, nor has an application been made to add

10     them to the 65 ter list.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, I'm sorry.  I omitted that.  I would like to

13     add those to the 65 ter list.  We received these documents only -- I

14     believe we received the CNN clip from Mr. Roberts when he visited us I

15     think about three weeks ago, and the article by Mr. Fisk, the second one,

16     we pulled out of the system around the same time.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, there's no date I can see on this

18     article either.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

20             MR. WAESPI:  I think it's 14th September 1995, the second

21     article.  The first one I believe was the 4th September 1995.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But what you believe is, of course, good to

23     know, but not the ultimate.

24             Yes, September 14th, 1995, apparently that's, at least, what

25     seems to be the --

Page 6842

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If you can see, Your Honour, on the bottom of

 2     the first page of this document, it appears to have been printed on July

 3     10th, 2008.  So, at least, it's been in someone's possession since that

 4     time.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  That's what I just mentioned.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  That's what you said, that you then received it from

 7     the witness?

 8             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  Because the witness showed us that document

 9     dated 12th October 1995, which is P684, which features on page 2 of

10     Mr. Fisk; and after that, we tried to find the articles Mr. Fisk wrote at

11     that time and presented it to Mr. Roberts.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, the other potential problem I have

13     with this is that how do we cross-examine?  I mean, there is no notation

14     in this article that Mr. Roberts was interviewed or quoted.  I mean, how

15     do we cross-examine someone on an article in which they weren't quoted.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

17             MR. WAESPI:  Well, again, as Your Honour has said a moment ago,

18     the witness facilitated the visit of the gentleman.  Obviously, the

19     journalist made his own observations.  He's a reputable journalist.  The

20     document speaks for itself.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's exactly the problem Mr. Misetic and now

22     apparently Mr. Kuzmanovic are raising.  If written statements, articles

23     speak for themselves, what's the use of asking questions about it, isn't

24     it?  What questions would you ask about this in examination-in-chief?

25             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, we had so many documents that were

Page 6843

 1     authored by another person than the witness who tendered these documents.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  And that's always the problem with these documents

 4     if the author is different from the witness.  That's as far as it goes.

 5     Of course, it goes to the value attached to a document like that, if the

 6     author can be cross-examined.  Of course, nobody prevents the Defence

 7     from calling Mr. Fisk, and we would certainly not be opposed to that.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I may.  This now opens the door to

 9     everybody going to Lexus Nexus, finding all the newspaper articles they

10     want, and tendering them into evidence as evidence, and then telling the

11     other side, Go call the journalist to cross-examine them.  I mean, at

12     some point, there has to be a line drawn.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, I can't say that I've never

14     seen a document coming from the Defence in a similar way.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Only if the -- I mean, as far as I can recall --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. MISETIC:  -- if the witness is quoted in the article, then

18     putting it to him to say, Did you say this on the day in question --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we have seen other examples as well.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I totally understand and I do agree

21     with you, but I think you have to realize that we got a CD of some

22     800-some documents produced in our lockers.  I don't know.  I haven't

23     looked at every single page and I can't tell you if this was included in

24     that.  But this is the first I've seen of this particular article.  I

25     understand Your Honour's position, that confronting people with articles

Page 6844

 1     or giving them articles in direct with which we had perhaps previous

 2     contact with and had a chance to prepare is one thing.

 3             But the difficulty with this particular witness is there's so

 4     much information, and every week we get a new statement or new

 5     supplemental information sheet or information that wants to be added to

 6     the 65 ter which obviously hasn't been added.  I understand Mr. Waespi

 7     has this witness and there's a lot of information and documentation.  But

 8     for us to effectively cross this person, you know, there has to be sort

 9     of an end as to when we get the documents, and it hasn't happened here.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, it appears to me, but please correct me

11     when I understand the Defence wrongly, that this witness has drafted a

12     list of some 20 journalists he has met at the time, facilitated, could

13     use the computer, sometimes were accompanied and sometimes were not

14     accompanied.

15             Now, it seems of some concern to the Defence that if you would

16     admit into evidence every single written report about what these

17     journalists apparently have seen without supporting pictures or without

18     any additional information about who accompanied him, we've seen

19     Mr. Roberts featuring on one of the clips.  So, at least, he could tell

20     us whether he was there; and whether this was the journalist who made it

21     and whether the environment in which he was videoed, whether that was

22     authentic or not.

23             I mean, he can say a bit more, but this would open a way to every

24     written report about the events by any of these witness -- by these

25     journalists, just on the basis that they'd visited the offices, to be

Page 6845

 1     admitted into evidence.

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, these are just two examples,

 3     including the CNN three examples, of what the witness described a regular

 4     occurrence, that international journalists would come.  It serves as an

 5     example as a corroboration of what the witness told us, especially in

 6     P684, and these are one- and two-page articles.  Obviously, if the

 7     Defence cannot cross the author, that goes to the value of these

 8     documents.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I don't know if the Independent was

11     translated into Croatia at the time.  I mean, if Mr. Waespi is seriously

12     going down this route, he has to present it in a proper and effective

13     way.  I was trying to alert the Court at the start to what I could see as

14     a bridgehead approach by the Prosecution in relation to this kind of

15     material, and it's become more and more transparent to me that that is

16     what is going on here.

17             Looking at the Amanpour clip, it looked to me as though that was

18     several different places edited together.  I'm not sure it is of just the

19     one place, and I'm not sure how the Court will be helped by edited

20     information as well as the views of journalists coming into this Tribunal

21     in that way.  There must be some connection with the accused or with the

22     witness himself, rather than the views and observations of other parties.

23     That's our concern at the bar here.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 6846

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether or not to admit the Roberts/Fisk report will

 2     be decided after the break by the Chamber.

 3             But, Madam Registrar, could you perhaps already mark it for

 4     identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P687, marked

 6     for identification.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             Just before I forget and I wanted to put it on the record with

10     respect to the Amanpour clip in light of the conversation we had earlier,

11     when she was standing in the cemetery, the trees were full of leaves.  So

12     I wanted to note that for the record in light of our discussion, and that

13     clip had to be at least the 2nd of October.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That says something about the seasons, you would

17     say, yes.

18             Mr. Waespi, perhaps you could also over the break look again not

19     only at the second and the third in this series of photographs but also

20     to the fourth, where you see something which some people would -- no, let

21     me not comment on it.  The witness said the second and the third might be

22     problematic.  If you could please have a close look at fourth as well.

23             Please, proceed.

24             MR. WAESPI:  Let's continue -- unless, Mr. President, I'm moving

25     on to a different subject.  That's a lists of human rights violations

Page 6847

 1     which I probably cannot deal in the next three minutes but I'm in your

 2     hands.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's what you cannot.  Could you tell us in

 4     how much time you could.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  Perhaps in -- well, maybe I'll try in five minutes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Five minutes.  Then we'll finish that and then we'll

 7     then take a break until 11.00.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             If 65 ter 5326 could be brought up, please.

11        Q.   While that's being done, do you remember Judith Jakob?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   And who was she?

14        A.   Judy Jacob was my press and public information assistant in the

15     press and public information office in Sector South headquarters in Knin,

16     and she had arrived in Sector South headquarters a few months before I

17     did.

18        Q.   Can you please have a look at the cover page of this list, and

19     once you have familiarized yourself, we can move on to the section page,

20     which is the first page of the actual list.

21             MR. WAESPI:  And for Your Honours' benefit, this is an almost

22     identical copy the actual list of P421 that was admitted after some

23     debate with Mr. Kehoe with Witness Marti.  And do you recall that

24     Mr. Marti said that two of the columns were cut off.

25             If we could move to the second page of this document, please, and

Page 6848

 1     if that could not be broadcast, please.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what this list is, Mr. Roberts?

 3        A.   Yes, I can.  There are, in fact, two lists which are identical.

 4     One is dated the 29th of November, as I recall, and one is not dated.

 5     The undated one, as I recall, is the official one that we circulated to

 6     certain members of mission headquarters in Zagreb, as well as the heads

 7     of some of the Sector South departments.  What this report is, as our

 8     public information office would do on some occasions - I think the Court

 9     is familiar but I will just make sure - that in the course of a UN

10     mission anywhere in the world, the different departments, such as was in

11     Sector South, the UN military observers, the UNCIVPOL, UN human rights

12     action teams, sector commander's office, all the departments would file

13     at the end of each day a situation report or a daily sitrep.

14             In the course of the weeks that followed, from the 4th of August

15     on through towards the end of the UNCRO mission in November, that pattern

16     continued.  The press office was, therefore, receiving all of these

17     reports, and our observation was that there was nowhere in Sector South,

18     nor as far as we knew, at mission headquarters Zagreb that had brought

19     together a comprehensive document to list as best we could all of the

20     reporting of the different UN sitreps and daily reports, to have them in

21     a chronological order based upon the sightings and the reports made by UN

22     personnel.

23             And therefore, we decided with the consent of the UN departments

24     in Sector South to be the office that would put this together.  So we did

25     this from the 4th of August onwards to the middle of November, and we

Page 6849

 1     finished this up in the mission headquarters in Zagreb, as I recall, in

 2     early January.

 3             The role of Judith Jacob was largely to bring together all of

 4     these different reports.  We would discuss them when I came in from field

 5     trips in the evening, and gradually we built-up this ledger of tables and

 6     information that was inserted.  And we tried to be as thorough as

 7     possible based upon the content of information provided in these UN

 8     reports, which she and I would go to the personnel concerned and ask them

 9     to on occasion to verify or be clear on information that they had written

10     in their report.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

12             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if this list could be tendered, under

13     seal, because it contains a few names of witnesses.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if just for the record we could get

16     the foundation as to where the document actually came from.  I mean, to

17     the Office of the Prosecutor, I mean.

18             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Because --

20             MR. WAESPI:  -- this specific document was given to us by

21     Mr. Roberts.  That's the first time we've seen the complete list with

22     those two columns at the far right.

23             MR. MISETIC:  If you could inquire as to where he got it from.  I

24     think there's a little bit of background there, just as the foundation

25     for the document.

Page 6850

 1             MR. WAESPI:  I believe the witness just testified that he

 2     compiled the document with Ms. Jacobs together, but we can clarify that

 3     with Mr. Roberts.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I don't mind.  The document was compiled by

 6     Ms. Jacob and myself with the cooperation of the various members of the

 7     other UN units.  I was advised that one of your earlier witnesses,

 8     Mr. Marti, had said, apparently, that he had received this document from

 9     Ms. Judith Jacob, and I was contacted then to ask about this document.  I

10     found the original of it, which is the undated document, and delivered

11     this to the investigators of ICTY.

12             MR. MISETIC:  It was my understanding based on communication with

13     the Prosecution that Ms. Jacobs is actually the one who's providing this

14     document, but I'm not sure.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

16             MR. WAESPI:  I can go back to my e-mail which I sent a memo to

17     everybody, and I'm quite confident we did not receive the list from

18     Ms. Jacobs, but for the first time from Mr. Roberts.  But I'll verify

19     that over the break.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You are referring at this moment to an e-mail which

21     was copied to the Chamber, dated the 23rd of June of this year, three

22     minutes past 7.00 in the afternoon.  Is that correct, Mr. Waespi?

23             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  And I have it in front of me right now, and in

24     it, Mrs. Jacobs says at page 2, the top, that she did not have a copy of

25     the list anymore.  So that confirms that she didn't give us the list

Page 6851

 1     herself.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Very well.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P688.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P688, in the absence of objections, is admitted into

 6     evidence.

 7             We'll have a break now, Mr. Roberts, until 11.00.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we continue, when we were discussing P688 and

11     when it was admitted into evidence, I have failed to mention that it was

12     admitted under seal.

13             Then as far as P687 is concerned, that is the newspaper article

14     of a -- apparently dating from the 14th of September.  The Chamber has

15     decided not to admit that in evidence, so the status changes from MFI

16     into NA, which stands for not admitted.  The Chamber has considered that

17     in more than one respect the document does not meet the criteria for

18     being admitted at this moment.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             If we could go back, as suggested by you, Mr. President, to P683,

22     which is the series of 30 photographs, and I'm interested in page 7.

23        Q.   Mr. Roberts, did you take this photograph?

24        A.   I recall I did, yes.

25        Q.   And what does it depict?

Page 6852

 1        A.   It was one of many photographs.  It wasn't taken specifically to

 2     show what's in the picture, but it depicts general decay and looting in

 3     the streets towards the upper part of town in Knin.

 4        Q.   What's very particular I think about this photo is the very white

 5     foreground.  Do you have an explanation for that as the photographer?

 6        A.   Yeah, I see it also.  I don't have any specific information to

 7     that.  I know I took the photograph.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt Mr. Waespi.

 9     Are you telling us this depicts looting?  Is that what I heard?  I

10     just --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I think that's -- I think the testimony is

12     such, unless there's any translation issues, seems to be clear.  Whether

13     it's for you very convincing, Mr. Kuzmanovic, you can, of course, tell

14     the Chamber at a later stage.

15             But before we start talking about the white, Mr. Roberts, is this

16     snow?

17             THE WITNESS:  I would not like to go and say clearly or not.

18     What I can say is I most certainly took this photograph.  The selection

19     of it for the purposes of suggesting looting is not my decision, but I

20     submitted this photograph with many others, and I think it's before the

21     Court, for what it's worth, to show what is in front of the photograph.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But, of course, the first thing and the reason

23     why I ask specific attention is that if it would be late September, then

24     it would have been in -- if this is snow and if this would have been late

25     September, it would have been in early winter, isn't it?

Page 6853

 1             THE WITNESS:  I follow you, yes.  I can't give any more

 2     information than that.  I don't recall taking the photograph in

 3     side-streets in Knin in the middle of the winter.  I can't recall that.

 4     I can recall taking this photograph, but not that far into a season of

 5     winter.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, of course, it's part of a series.  If it

 7     would not have been, I would have invited you to reconsider the probative

 8     value and the relevance of this photograph.  Now, to take it out of a

 9     series, I mean, if you would -- I leave it in your hands at this moment.

10             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  But it raises more questions than it answers

12     apparently.

13             MR. WAESPI:  I'm not a photographer, not even an amateur one.  I

14     was wondering whether the flash-light could have been the reason for

15     that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I, of course, had similar considerations, but

17     then, of course, further down on some of the branches, you find tiny

18     little parcels of flash-light.  I can't exclude anything, but --

19             MR. WAESPI:  We'll do away with this photograph, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

21             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you.

22             Let's move to the second list, and, Mr. President, this list did

23     not appear on the 65 ter -- on our current 65 ter list.  So we need to

24     apply, and there was also some objections from both Defence teams.  So I

25     would like to first lay a foundation with this witness, and this is

Page 6854

 1     ter 3150.

 2        Q.   Mr. Roberts, do you recognise this list?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   And what is it?

 5        A.   This is a list that I was given by a UN military observer, and I

 6     understand, at the time it was given to me, I did not know who was the

 7     producer of the document.  The information it contained is a summary, as

 8     far as I could tell at the time and now, of UN reports from different

 9     departments, which on the far right columns of the article you're looking

10     at, source of information says the source of information.  It doesn't

11     give specific dates of the sitreps, but I understand it was actually

12     prepared by Ms. Peggy Hicks, who was a colleague.  She was one of the

13     United Nations human rights officers based at mission headquarters in

14     Zagreb.

15        Q.   And did you use this list in your daily activities?

16        A.   I referred to this list in the course of compiling the 12th of

17     October report that I put together myself, but only in terms of just

18     looking at the descriptions and the dates as the way that various

19     happenings, various incidents unfolded in Sector South around Knin from

20     the 4th of August onwards.  There was another report which covered also

21     Sector North, and I used this in giving a guidance to my obtaining and

22     checking the information in my 12th of October report of the specific

23     situation reports of UNCIVPOL and UNMOs which are sourced in the 12th of

24     October document.

25             MR. WAESPI:  Based on the witness's answer, Mr. President, I'd

Page 6855

 1     like to make an oral application to add it to the 65 ter list and to have

 2     it tendered.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Two requests.  First, adding to the 65 ter list.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, my assistant here tells me that it's

 5     already on the 65 ter list, and it's 65 ter 3150.  With respect to the

 6     second request as to admissibility, we do have an objection.  First of

 7     all, on two grounds, first, that it's simply a commentary on evidence

 8     that's already been admitted because it's a compilation or an analysis of

 9     that evidence, and we believe the Trial Chamber is better suited to draw

10     its own conclusions.

11             Second, if I could go into private session for one moment, Your

12     Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, before we do so.

14             Mr. Waespi, you even introduced the document as 65 ter 3150.

15     That I find that on line -- page 42, line 9.  So, therefore, to have it

16     added or did you provisionally assign a 65 ter number?

17             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. WAESPI:  The way I understand it, that's always a technical

20     issue to have it uploaded, so it's everybody -- it's available to

21     everybody.  But that doesn't mean that it's formally on the 65 ter list.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This means that it's your position that it was

23     not yet on a 65 ter list which was filed at the time, and I see some body

24     language on the other side.  But whatever it was, either it was or

25     there's no objection against adding it.

Page 6856

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Well.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, it is now on the 65 ter list.

 3             But now objection against admission.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  If I could go into private session for one moment,

 5     Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We turn into private session.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6857











11  Pages 6857-6858 redacted. Private session.















Page 6859

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar, had we assigned already a number to

 5     this document?  Let me just check.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  No, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Not yet.  Could you please assign a number to it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, that would be P689.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  P689 is admitted into evidence.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             In the remaining time, I'd like to cover two more subjects.  The

13     first one is Grubori.  If the 65 ter number 4817, a sketch, could be

14     pulled up, please.

15        Q.   Mr. Roberts, do you recognise this sketch?

16        A.   Yes, I recognise the sketch, yes.

17        Q.   And who prepared it?

18        A.   I drew this sketch.

19        Q.   Can you fairly briefly, because it's all contained in your

20     various witness statements and specifically in a report you made which is

21     still 65 ter number 5322, can you tell us how come you prepared this

22     sketch.

23        A.   This sketch concerns two dates that UN Human Rights Action Team

24     and other personnel went to the Plavno valley north of Knin.  The first

25     visit was 24th of August, and we'd gone - if you look at the bottom

Page 6860

 1     centre of the diagram, it's the little road coming slightly to the right

 2     of centre, it comes from Knin - we'd come that direction, and we'd gone

 3     up the road on the left there to the village that's in the top left-hand

 4     corner.

 5             On the 24th, we had met villagers and they had told us of various

 6     incidents of intimidation.  They were quite afraid.  One building had

 7     been burned in that village, and the UN civil affairs and humanitarian

 8     officers suggested that to try and take their concerns into

 9     consideration, we would come back tomorrow, the next day, with members of

10     the UN -- the Croatian police from Knin to discuss issues such as

11     security, issuing of ID cards, other matters of concern that they

12     expressed to the UN on the 24th.

13             We went back down the road, and we went into Knin, and, as is in

14     my statement, we met briefly at the police station, advised them of the

15     request of the villagers who we'd told the police would come with us on

16     the next day.  On the next day, we went to the village again.  In my

17     statement, as far as I can recall, we did not go past the Knin police

18     station, but we went directly a bit in advance of the time of that

19     meeting to that village.

20             On the way there, on the road going to the village, you will see

21     these little square boxes on the right-hand side.  These were some about

22     10 to 12 -- 10 to 11 vehicles.  Some were blue, some were white kind of

23     vans.  And we were somewhat struck, the UN party - which is quite a large

24     one - about these vehicles.  They were completely idle and no personnel

25     around, and UN TV crew was with us.  They filmed them.  I believe you may

Page 6861

 1     have that already.  I don't know.

 2             I took some sketches of the vehicles, and then proceeded up

 3     towards the village because we thought they might be to do with the

 4     policija from Knin coming to the village.  We went to the village top

 5     left again, and were told, no, they hadn't come.  In the course of that

 6     meeting, we observed from that village, across the valley top right, a

 7     village that was burning.  That is called Grubori, and it's marked top

 8     right of that diagram.  And the rest is really the roads that we went

 9     down past the school community centre and up towards the winding road

10     that goes towards Grubori.

11             I'll leave it there because I think most of the information is in

12     my statement of 1997, specifically my report on the Grubori incident of

13     the 29th of August, which is several pages long, and is there for the

14     Court to consider as to the full account of what I and my colleagues

15     observed first hand in Grubori.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

17             MR. WAESPI:  If this sketch could be admitted, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Since I hear of no objections, Madam Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this would be Exhibit P690.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  P690 is admitted into evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. WAESPI:  If we could pull up ter 5322.

23        Q.   Mr. Roberts, is this the report you just referred to a moment

24     ago?

25        A.   Yes.  That's my report on the happenings and observations of the

Page 6862

 1     UN personnel who went across the Plavno valley to Grubori village on the

 2     25th of August; and in that document, I describe all the events we

 3     observed on those days, on the day of the actual incident and the days

 4     following.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  Let me go to page 7, paragraph 27, of this report;

 6     and in B/C/S, it's page 9, paragraph 27.

 7             The last part of paragraph 27, last five, six lines, read as

 8     follows.  It starts:  "Assessments by UN Sector South, UNCRO, UNHCR, and

 9     ECMM that such ongoing incidents, the lack of Croatian police patrols,

10     resources, and investigations, are that they suggest an unchecked pattern

11     that was more toward ethnic cleansing than loose criminal elements and

12     isolated incidents, while balanced reporting by the media is hard to find

13     anywhere in the mainstream Croatian press."

14             Can you tell us the Court why you say that?

15        A.   Yes, I can.  As the press and public information officer at

16     Sector South headquarters, I was able to receive reports, not only just

17     the main UN Sector South headquarters, but also the specialised agencies

18     such as UNHCR, which is a UN specialised agency as you know, but also the

19     reports of ECMM monitors that were largely military personnel serving in

20     the European Community Monitoring Mission.

21             And upon reading those in the days after the 4th of August, I can

22     say that every single report from the four principal UN departments, as

23     well as UNHCR, as well as the ECMM, were documenting their own

24     observations of arson in villages, violent acts against what were mainly

25     elderly remaining civilians, and regular observations of what they would

Page 6863

 1     describe as men in military uniform or Croatian military officers or

 2     special units of Croatia seen at the vicinity of houses o villages that

 3     were either on fire, had been burned, or accounts of villagers

 4     interviewed.  And this is why I say in this paragraph, not that it was in

 5     my words "ethnic cleansing," but was an unchecked pattern that continued

 6     that was more towards ethnic cleansing than loose criminal elements and

 7     isolated incidents.

 8             Now, that was what I was reading as reactions by Croatian

 9     officials and reported in the Croatian mainstream press which we were

10     monitoring from our press office and was also monitored by our main UN

11     public affairs office in Zagreb.  And I did not write that paragraph

12     without some degree of checking with my headquarters in Zagreb because I

13     wanted this report to be, not the most thorough, but as closely to the

14     observations of my colleagues at Grubori, but up to that time of what we

15     observed and I felt were made as genuine reports by the UN officials as

16     well as agencies like UNHCR and ECMM.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

18             MR. WAESPI:  I would like to tender this document, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Since there are no objections, Madam Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P691.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  P691 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, I used my two hours allotted to this

23     witness.  I need another maybe ten, 15 minutes, if I'm allowed to do

24     that.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll ask Madam Registrar how many minutes you

Page 6864

 1     exactly used and then please proceed; and if you're well beyond your one

 2     and a half hours, then I'll warn you.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             If 65 ter 4816 could be brought up, please.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise this list, Mr. Roberts?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   And what is it?

 9        A.   This is a list that was made, I won't say in a hurried fashion,

10     but was very spontaneous.  Because we were puzzled, myself and my UN

11     colleagues, on the way to the village opposite Grubori on the morning of

12     the 25th of August at the sighting of these rather, for us, unusual sight

13     of vehicles parked on the right-hand side of the lane leading towards the

14     village we were going to, after we had come back from the burning ruins

15     of Grubori, I went to check myself with the party vehicles that contained

16     my colleagues.  We decided to go to the office of General Cermak to

17     report what we had seen as quickly as possible, and I wanted just to make

18     sure that those vehicles were there or gone.

19             I had recorded on another list, which I could not find, all ten

20     or 11 vehicles on the way to the village we were going to in the morning

21     early.  But this is the vehicles that I observed and recorded were still

22     there at the time we returned from Grubori to go to Knin to report what

23     we had seen.  It's a very quick note, but it's what I took at the time.

24     And I also have said, I think, in a statement that I believe my

25     colleague -- I believe my colleague from UNHCR, Benny Otim, also took

Page 6865

 1     this information on a similar list of the number plates and tablet plates

 2     of those vehicles.

 3             The sighting itself was quite unusual.  They were unmarked, there

 4     was no people nearby, it was an open valley, they were quite new

 5     vehicles, they looked official.  But to me they did not look as if they

 6     were Croatian policija vehicles because we were familiar with what they

 7     looked like.  They looked, as I have said in my report I think, to

 8     suggest - and this is in my 1997 statement I think and also my report of

 9     29th August 1995 - that they looked like some kind of special unit

10     vehicles.  They were too many to be to be just ordinary normal Croatian

11     policija vehicles.  They suggested that type of thing, but that's what I

12     put in my report as my own conclusion.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

14             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, if we could have an exhibit number,

15     please.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, Madam Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that would be Exhibit P692.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  P692 is admitted into evidence.

19             Mr. Waespi, you used approximately one hour, 45 minutes, so if

20     you could please conclude in the next three to four minutes.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Brief interruption.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  It may be obvious, but if we could just get a

Page 6866

 1     date for that document I would appreciate it.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, could you accommodate?

 3             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Roberts, do you remember when you made this note?

 5        A.   Yeah, I compiled this note I think the same evening, if not the

 6     next day, but I made the actual note at the time, and this I think is the

 7     note I took on the 25th of August itself of writing things down.  It's

 8     clearly a handwritten, hurried note, of the date that is on the top

 9     there:  Plavno, 25 August 1995.  I don't think I wrote it down the next

10     day.  I would have remembered the note.  I think it is that date or of

11     the evening, but that's the actual list compiled from that sighting late

12     morning, 25th of August.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you.

14             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I used only -- or if I

15     used --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  You said two hours, or you had

17     scheduled two hours.

18             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That was one and a half on my mind, so, therefore,

20     I'm not encouraging you to use any more time than you indicated earlier,

21     but my limitation was unfair.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   The last photo I'd like to show you in connection to Grubori is

25     65 ter 4823.  Mr. Roberts, can you tell us what -- who the photographer

Page 6867

 1     is who took the photograph.

 2        A.   I took this photograph.  It was the late afternoon of 25 August.

 3     We went back to Grubori, having been in Knin, and reported this

 4     development at the office of General Cermak.  And this is one of the

 5     villagers, Jovo Grubor, who is showing us the location where in the

 6     afternoon period while we were in Knin, he had found the body of one of

 7     his neighbours in the hedge.  And my description of that body and what

 8     happened is in my report.  Without taking up further time of the Court

 9     here, I think that's in the 25 August report of all those photograph I

10     took and what they depict in my opinion.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Roberts.

12             MR. WAESPI:  If I could tender this photo, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

14             Madam Registrar.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this would be Exhibit P693.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             Could you invite the witness to be a bit more precise on the

18     time-line that day, at what time approximately he observed initially what

19     he said he observed, then how much time it took him to get back to Knin,

20     and then to get back to Grubori again.

21             Please proceed.  Would you please explain this to us,

22     Mr. Roberts?

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, certainly, Your Honour.

24             We had gone from the village across from Grubori and reached

25     Grubori about mid-morning, late morning on the 25th.  The party of UN

Page 6868

 1     officials that were there with myself were UN TV, UNHCR, EJ Flynn from

 2     human rights office, about five or six officials including UNCIVPOL and

 3     UNMOs.  And we spent about, in my opinion, not more than maybe 40 minutes

 4     in the village.  UN TV filmed.  There was a commentary shock on the state

 5     of the women and Jovo who came back with us.  He was in the meeting

 6     across the valley we had been to early in the morning.  And we decided

 7     then the most important thing to do because of what we had encountered,

 8     village houses on fire, barns on fire, cattle, an animal was shot dead,

 9     the villagers reporting that some of the relatives were inside houses

10     that were on fire.  Clearly, what had happened had obviously for us

11     happened very, very recently, the same hour or two before.

12             We decided to go back to the office of General Cermak and report

13     what we had seen immediately because we felt this warranted a police

14     investigation or security to be provided, and so we went back into Knin

15     which took about 45, 50 minutes.  We could not find General Cermak at the

16     office.  We spoke to what I think was his -- one of his main assistants,

17     I think Major or General Dondo.  My colleagues were Maria Teresa Mauro

18     from UN civil affairs, EJ Flynn, and I think Benny Otim was there from

19     UNHCR.

20             We made it clear to Mr. Dondo what we had seen, where, what we

21     felt was going on, urged an immediate investigation be launched, and the

22     presence of personnel deployed to protect the villagers, not only there

23     but in Plavno valley as we had heard in other incidents like that from

24     other villagers in the morning.

25             We then went back at about 5.00 or so to headquarters Sector

Page 6869

 1     South.  We tabled very brief, informal initial reports to our respective

 2     offices in Zagreb, mission headquarters, and our respective offices

 3     elsewhere in the UN chain.  Then I had in my office a Dutch TV crew walk

 4     in by chance.  They were being -- doing some filming elsewhere in the

 5     area.  And we decided we would go back, those of us who had been there in

 6     the morning, to Grubori because we felt the place was very unsecure.  We

 7     wanted to see if there had been a deployment of Croatian policija to

 8     provide security.  We went back, we took the Dutch TV crew with us.  My

 9     colleagues from UN TV decided to stakeout, is the term journalistically,

10     and await the office of General Cermak, to see if they could get an

11     interview with him.

12             We proceeded back to Grubori through Plavno valley, the same

13     route, arriving late afternoon/early evening, and this is when I took

14     most of the photographs of the persons we found had been killed.  We were

15     taken to various locations by the villagers, who were by then all

16     assembled, only six remaining, which is I think five women and Jovo here

17     in the photograph.  And we were taken to locations where I photographed

18     various people who had been killed in my observations.  They had been

19     shot at close range.  Bullet cases were found in one room of an elderly

20     man.  He was elderly, he'd been in bed.  And other women were --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now you're describing -- I was mainly focusing --

22             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.

24             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Let's finish up with one subject, and this is 65 ter 2840, a

Page 6870

 1     letter from General Janvier to General Cervenko of 12 December 1995.

 2        Q.   It relates to an issue that you were the -- at the centre of it.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  If we could go to the next page, if there is one.

 4     Yes.

 5        Q.   Let me read the first one, the third paragraph.

 6             "Dear General.

 7             "I have been informed by the commander of Sector South,

 8     Brigadier-General Forand, that during a visit he paid to General Cermak

 9     in Knin on 5 September 1995, General Gotovina, who was also present,

10     accused Mr. Roberts, press and information officer of the Sector, of

11     being involved in spying activities which ultimately may justify his

12     execution."

13             And I'll go on:  "You will agree with me that such statements are

14     rude, offending, and unacceptable, especially if expressed by a

15     high-ranking General Officer of the HV.

16             "Moreover, they certainly do not contribute to establishing a

17     very much needed climate of cooperation and confidence at a time where

18     reports on looting, burning, and other human rights violations continue

19     to reach me and the Commander of Sector South.

20             "I would very much appreciate it if you could inform me about

21     whatever measures you deem necessary to avoid further blatant allegations

22     against a member of the UN in Sector South whose commitment remains

23     highly valued by the Sector Commander."

24             Now, were you spying, Mr. Roberts?

25        A.   Well, I don't even know these days where that question comes

Page 6871

 1     from, but I was a professional public information officer of UN Sector

 2     South.

 3        Q.   Do you know what the reason was that General Gotovina used these

 4     words or acted the way he did?

 5        A.   Well, I think --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I think the question calls for

 7     speculation.  The person wasn't even at the meeting, so I don't know if

 8     he can even accurately -- he's basically asking him to speculate.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Whether it calls for speculation depends on what he

10     knows.

11             But, Mr. Waespi, you certainly have an expectation, I take it,

12     that if we start digging into the psychology of Mr. Gotovina at the time,

13     then it might not greatly assist us.  But if the witness has any specific

14     knowledge which could give a reasonable explanation for why he was

15     perceived as being a spy, then, of course, the witness could tell us.

16             Please proceed.

17             THE WITNESS:  If you're asking me to comment --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Actually, what we'd like to know is what facts you

19     are aware of which you could link to such an allegation.

20             THE WITNESS:  Well, there's a few things here, begging the

21     Court's indulgence.  I was not present at the meeting at all.  I was

22     advised by General Forand, the sector commander, that he had been invited

23     to a meeting, which, in fact, as far as I understand, was a meeting or an

24     invitation extended by General Gotovina, not by General Cermak, to his

25     headquarters or winter headquarters, as General Forand told me in Knin.

Page 6872

 1     They went.  That's all I knew.  I didn't ask to go, I was not invited to

 2     go.

 3             When General Forand returned, I was called by Colonel Tymchuk,

 4     one of his advisors, to his office where I was briefed that in the course

 5     of that meeting, there was two things that seemed especially, to put it

 6     politely, very much on the mind of General Gotovina as described to me by

 7     General Forand, which was that we and the UNHCR were harbouring war

 8     criminals in Sector South that we should hand over.  First of all, that's

 9     what I was told.

10             And, secondly, he seemed especially disturbed with my behaviour

11     and made, as I was told by General Forand, by Colonel Tymchuk, in the

12     presence of several officers accompanying General Forand, a threat

13     against myself personally with several allegations that I was an agent,

14     provacateur, et cetera.

15             I was only asked for my comment about how I felt.  I cautioned by

16     my colleagues that I did not myself feel any kind of sense of foreboding

17     threat on the streets of Knin, that I was doing my job.  If General

18     Forand felt that was reliable, I would continue; and, therefore, the

19     Sector South commander placed this at the latter part of his report to

20     Zagreb, but advised me he must tell UN officials of this threat.  If

21     something happened, he and other UN officials in Zagreb would be liable.

22     I then saw the rest of the correspondence from the force commander to

23     higher UN -- higher Croatian military officials.  I did see the response

24     of General Gotovina.  As I told you, I was not at the meeting.

25             I can myself offer you, if you wish to have it, my -- what would

Page 6873

 1     be correctly speculation as to why he may have said this, but I don't

 2     want to --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You're not invited to give any explanation.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi, you read the whole of the letter.  We

 6     heard quite a long answer, which finally doesn't bring us what we asked

 7     for; that is, whether there are any specific facts.  The only thing I

 8     heard is that, apparently, Mr. Gotovina has expressed that he considered

 9     Mr. Roberts to be an agente provocateur, well, which is, of course, not

10     exactly the same thing as a spy, but that's the only thing that's added.

11             MR. WAESPI:  Perhaps one last question which focuses on the

12     subject.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please proceed.

14             MR. WAESPI:

15        Q.   We know from your witness statements which are now in evidence

16     that you had a number of meetings with General Gotovina prior to the

17     Operation Storm.  Now, given those meetings, does this reaction of

18     General Gotovina, who, as we read, wanted to say that it justifies your

19     execution, did that come as a surprise to you?

20        A.   Well, first of all, I did not have meetings myself, my

21     initiation, with General Gotovina.  I was in the presence of UN sector

22     commanders.  I felt at those meetings that he had expressed more than

23     once that, as the UN public information officer, he felt the messages I

24     was portraying and saying to the press, especially in Zadar and Croatia

25     and in Korenica, were not appropriate.  And I felt he was quite upset

Page 6874

 1     with what he and his colleagues were monitoring what I was saying.  And I

 2     knew he did not like the role of myself and other UN colleagues in the

 3     way we were acting inside Sector South in performing our mandate.  That

 4     was made very clear to me.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President, I would like to offer this document

 6     into evidence.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The letter, which apparently is page 2 of this --

 8     I'll just check.

 9             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  I think it's --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I've seen the letter before, but apparently

11     in the first page is now the -- it is a 12th of September message from

12     UNCRO COS, apparently to commander Sector South Alun Roberts, subject:

13     "Threat against the Sector South spokesman by HV authorities."

14             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  It might well be that another version came in

15     with General Forand.  I need to check that.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

17             MR. WAESPI:  But just for the sake of completion, I would like to

18     tender it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  But could we then at least understand that you

20     received a copy of this correspondence, Mr. Roberts?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I have -- I did have at the time the sitrep

22     that went from Sector South commander to headquarters, and I have

23     received subsequently the response of General Janvier at the time, more

24     or less, and subsequently the correspondence between Mr. Janvier and

25     Croatian senior officials later.

Page 6875

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 2             Mr. Waespi, we'll hear from you whether you insist on having this

 3     in evidence, which might be repetitious evidence, but I have not verified

 4     that.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. WAESPI:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my

 7     examination-in-chief.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 9             Who will be the first one to cross-examine the witness?

10             Mr. Kay.

11             MR. KAY:  I am, Your Honour, yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  You're on your feet.

13             Mr. Roberts, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Kay, who is

14     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

15             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

16             MR. KAY:  Just on a general notice, Your Honour will recollect,

17     and I think it's proper for me to this point out, the error that General

18     Forand spoke of in relation to this particular letter that there wasn't a

19     meeting at General Cermak's office.  General Cermak wasn't there.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's on the record.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kay:

25        Q.   Mr. Roberts, the first matter I want to deal with is your initial

Page 6876

 1     meetings referred to in your statement with no clear date, but you state

 2     in those statements that you were present at meetings either on the

 3     7th or 8th of August at General Cermak's office in which matters such as

 4     freedom of movement were discussed.  And I'll suspect you'll probably

 5     remember those details.  We've no need to look at them on the screen

 6     because I'm going to refer you to various documents.

 7             MR. KAY:  For the Court's assistance, we'll be dealing with

 8     evidence that arises in the statement of August 1997, Exhibit P675,

 9     para 20; the statement of 28th of February, 2007, Exhibit P677.  And it

10     concerns the details that arise from that passage within those

11     statements.

12        Q.   Your first meeting, then, Mr. Roberts, outside the UNCRO camp was

13     when?

14        A.   Thank you.  My first meeting with General Cermak was in the

15     presence of the sector commander on the morning or late morning of the

16     8th of August, as I recall to the best of my ability and as I've put in

17     the statement.  That was the meeting that General Forand had requested to

18     discuss a number of matters, and a number of us went from headquarters

19     Sector South to meet General Forand in town.

20        Q.   And in relation to that meeting, within those statements, you

21     give characterization as to the role of Mr. Cermak and what was allegedly

22     said by him; that's right, isn't it?

23        A.   That is generally correct, yes.

24        Q.   Moving back a day to the 7th of August, that was a day when

25     Mr. Akashi came to the camp; and, presumably, on that day, that was the

Page 6877

 1     first day that you met General Cermak.  Is that right?

 2        A.   Not exactly.  On the 7th of August was the visit, as you

 3     explained, by the SRSG, Mr. Akashi.  After he had toured the town of Knin

 4     which was supervised very much by the Croatian authorities, naturally, he

 5     came to the Sector South headquarters.  And I don't know whether he was

 6     accompanied by General Cermak or not, but there was a press briefing.

 7     Now, my only contact with General Cermak was that he was sitting and

 8     seated on the right-hand side of Mr. Akashi.  I did not meet with him.  I

 9     arranged the room with my other colleagues from the press office for the

10     press conference.  I did not speak to him directly, and later in the same

11     statement, I've recorded the press conference and main remarks by some

12     journalists in questions to Mr. Akashi and Mr. Cermak.  I did not meet

13     him on the 7th of August in any kind of conversational way.

14        Q.   7th of August, then, was the first day that you had any contact

15     with him in that sense, in the sense of seeing him?

16        A.   That's very correct.  That's very fair.  It's the first time I'd

17     seen General Cermak.

18        Q.   In your statements, you're unclear as to the date when there was

19     a meeting concerning the discussions of the UNCRO contingent and

20     discussions with General Cermak over where they could or could not go.

21     Is that right?

22        A.   I think, to the best of my ability, that the first two statements

23     I actually made to ICTY investigators in 1997/1998 were perhaps the

24     clearest.  And I, in 1997 in that paragraph 20, recall the meeting of

25     UNCRO officials from Sector South headquarters with General Cermak.  That

Page 6878

 1     is a description.  There is nothing there in quotation marks.  It is my

 2     observations as to the kind of meeting we had, what General Forand wished

 3     to try and accomplish, and the characterization of the response of

 4     General Cermak of what he replied.

 5        Q.   And in your statement of 2007, you say it was either one or the

 6     other date, and I'm looking at page 7 of that statement and the second

 7     paragraph:  "I recall that either Monday, the 7th, or Tuesday, the 8th of

 8     August, I went with General Forand and other UN officials to meet with

 9     General Cermak."

10        A.   Right.

11        Q.   Why the uncertainty?

12        A.   At the time of this statement, if you look at the date, it is

13     2007.  And as a small aside, it's a long time between the statement to an

14     investigator of, I think, early 1997 - in fact, August 1997 - to what is,

15     in fact, ten years after, 2007, which in some parts might have been just

16     generally descriptive.  But I, having reviewed the 1997 statement, recall

17     that the meeting, in fact, was the 8th of August.

18        Q.   On the 7th of August, when General Cermak was at the UNCRO camp

19     and after Mr. Akashi had gone, were you present when there was a meeting

20     between him and members of the displaced persons who were present at the

21     camp?

22        A.   I don't think on that occasion I was present, but I was present,

23     I think, at a later meeting, or I thought was later, in which General

24     Cermak spoke to a delegation of the displaced persons.  I cannot recall

25     being at a meeting on the 7th of August, but I know that General Cermak

Page 6879

 1     had expressed his wish to meet with the displaced persons as soon as

 2     possible.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I might be wrong about that date.  I'm trying to

 4     position you to help you, as there's uncertainty about it.  And for these

 5     questions, that's not really important.  It may, in fact.  Have been on

 6     the 8th of August, you're quite right.

 7             So you weren't present on the 7th of August when General Forand

 8     met General Cermak at General Cermak's headquarters?

 9        A.   I just heard you say the 7th of August?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   I was not at a meeting that I recall was on the 7th of August.  I

12     recall that Mr. Akashi was in town on the 7th of August, and there was a

13     press briefing late that morning, and that General Cermak attended the

14     press briefing.  I can recall going to a meeting with General Forand and

15     the head of civil affairs, Mr. Al-Alfi, and other heads of the UN, which

16     I had thought was the 8th of August, and that's why I put it in my

17     statement of 1997, that I recall that meeting of a large delegation of

18     the UN as being the 8th of August.

19             MR. KAY:  Can we turn to Exhibit P356, please.  This is a sitrep

20     dated the 8th of August.  Can we turn to page 2 of that UNCRO sitrep and

21     go to paragraph 8 if that can be blown up for the benefit of -- or raised

22     up the screen.

23        Q.   And in paragraph 8, we see here from this document from HQ Sector

24     South Knin, presumably this is a document that you would have seen, is

25     that right?  It's an UNCRO sitrep.

Page 6880

 1        A.   I can't recall seeing this document previously.

 2        Q.   So are we to take it that not all UNCRO sitreps actually came

 3     before you?

 4        A.   The majority of them did, I had access to all of them, but I

 5     can't recall the specificity of this document on the meeting of the

 6     7th of August.

 7        Q.   Are you able to tell us at all as to what types of UNCRO sitreps

 8     that were being transmitted to Zagreb didn't go to you?

 9        A.   I had access to most of the documentation that went from Sector

10     South commander's office to Zagreb, as well as UNMOs and UNCIVPOL and

11     UN Human Rights Action Team reports penned by the heads of that

12     departments.

13        Q.   I'm asking you about UNCRO sitreps because that's what we've got

14     in front of us, and I would be grateful if you would direct your

15     attention to that because you said most of documents.  I'd like to know

16     if there was a category that didn't, if you were excluded from any

17     particular acquire of document?

18        A.   If they were confidential memoirs between the sector commander

19     and of a military nature with headquarters or perhaps something from

20     UNCRO, head of political affairs that were thought sensitive, we would

21     not necessarily get them.  We can't say every single specific document,

22     but the majority, yes, I would have access to.

23        Q.   Turning, then, to paragraph 8, this is a report of the meeting

24     written here with the commander of Sector South, General Forand, General

25     Cermak, and you can see that the meeting refers to one that took place at

Page 6881

 1     6.00 on the 7th of August to discuss items of mutual interest.  It refers

 2     to who was assisting General Forand, CAC.  Do you know who that is?

 3        A.   It would be the civil affairs coordinator.  I think it's not

 4     quite the right terminology for the exact title of the post of

 5     Mr. Hussein Al-Alfi, but, you're right, basically that's who it would be.

 6     Senior Military Observer, EJ Flynn, head of the human rights section --

 7        Q.   SMO, senior monitoring officer?

 8        A.   Senior military observer, I think is correct.

 9        Q.   DEPCOMD?

10        A.   Deputy commander, possibly.

11        Q.   Would that have been Mr. Tymchuk or Mr. Leslie?

12        A.   Andrew Leslie, I think, at the time was the Chief of Staff who

13     departed shortly after to Zagreb.  That's not as I had understood it.

14        Q.   And the SLO, that's senior liaison officer?

15        A.   Senior liaison officer, you're right.

16        Q.   And, there, General Cermak was assisted by a Captain Lukovic?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   The tone of meeting cordial, atmosphere within the HQ was with

19     intense activity, which left the impression the HV was unprepared for its

20     success.

21        A.   I haven't got that in front of me.  Could you turn the page or

22     pull that --

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. KAY:  Page 3, please.

25             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

Page 6882

 1             MR. KAY:

 2        Q.   Military governor expressed a desire for frequent meetings, even

 3     daily, and he asked to visit and speak to the displaced population -

 4     internally displaced persons population is what that stands for - at the

 5     headquarters in Sector South on the 8th of August.  This was agreed.  UN

 6     humanitarian agencies must soon decide the criteria concerning

 7     questioning of the IDPs.

 8             A paragraph concerning the civil authorities, a paragraph

 9     concerning observation posts, patrolling would now be done by UNCIVPOL

10     and other UN teams that you're familiar with, about the agreement between

11     the Government of Croatia and UNCRO.  Concern about -- or the initial

12     area considered safe for travel by the Croatian authorities is the area

13     of Knin.  This will be progressively expanded.  Further references there.

14             It was agreed UNHCR convoys would be free to travel within the

15     area and that storage space would be made available for supplies in Knin,

16     and then special measures concerning protection of people.

17             So that was the position as recorded by General Forand's staff,

18     and we've heard evidence about that from him, on the 7th of August, and

19     the discussion there with General Cermak concerning freedom of movement.

20     And you weren't present at that meeting, as we know.

21        A.   Well, sir, let me just be very clear with you.  It may be a

22     different date of one day.  I was in the party with General Forand, with

23     EJ Flynn, with Benny Otim, with Mr. Al-Alfi, that met with Mr. Cermak in

24     his office in the centre of town.

25             This sitrep I'm reading, for me, for me, what is very important,

Page 6883

 1     even if with the Court's forgiveness it is a matter of one day, is what

 2     was said at that meeting.  I'm reading this sitrep very carefully; and as

 3     I do, I recall seeing some of this before.  But I recall very, very

 4     certainly contact with General Forand, Benny Otim of UNHCR, before we had

 5     that meeting with General Cermak.  And the biggest concern, the biggest

 6     concern, was of the UN's ability to get out of Sector South headquarters,

 7     patrol the streets of Knin, and get out to verify what might be

 8     happening, might be happening, in the villages, hamlets around, as per

 9     UNCRO full freedom of movement.

10             And what I've said there on that paragraph is exactly as I

11     remember, General Forand being quite strong, polite, in his request that

12     we be allowed to do that, and saying very clearly, If you do not allow us

13     to do this, if you do not allow us to do this, I cannot say that Croatian

14     authorities, political military police are standing by human rights.

15             Now, that's my version of what I distinctly remember being said

16     by the sector commander.

17        Q.   First of all --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, you earlier read or summarized this

19     document, and the line that the HV "seemed not to be prepared for

20     success" is not the same as that they "seemed at least slightly

21     unprepared for the rapid success."

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Your Honour, can I say, I only did that to skip

24     through quickly.  There's nothing in this line of questioning to do with

25     that issue.

Page 6884

 1        Q.   What I am concerned, and I do invite you to look at it very

 2     carefully, Mr. Roberts, is that your characterization within your

 3     statements of your meetings with General Cermak at a meeting with

 4     Mr. Forand are not as borne-out by what is written in your statement.

 5     Isn't that right?

 6        A.   I'm looking here at one document that you have shown about that

 7     meeting.  I also had seen summary reports of that meeting from my

 8     colleague EJ Flynn and from civil affairs.  I have not tendered them as

 9     part of my supporting evidence, but I think that there definitely was

10     discussion, as I recall other sitreps of the sector commander's office,

11     specifically in regard to that meeting, pointing out what was agreed at

12     that meeting of freedom of movement, and that it was not being followed.

13        Q.   Can I just interrupt you because your evidence was quite clear in

14     those statements, which you've told us was the truth, was that General

15     Cermak was restricting you to the centre of town and just side-streets.

16     This is not reflected in this document, is it?

17        A.   Well, I'm saying clearly what I heard, first of all, and recall

18     at that meeting.  And I do know, sir, that there are other documents from

19     the office of General Forand and from UNMOs and CIVPOL in the days

20     immediately following that meeting, which --

21        Q.   Can I stop you there.  We're talking about your characterization

22     of General Cermak at the meeting where you give an impression of who he

23     was and what he was.  Please do not move to further down what was

24     happening later.  Please deal with the accuracy of what you were asked to

25     give evidence about.

Page 6885

 1        A.   And my response, then, is that what I put in this document is

 2     what I recall, to the best of my ability, the statements of General

 3     Forand at that time and the responses that we understood from General

 4     Cermak on his authority and what he said in terms of his ability:  We

 5     should have freedom of movement in the centre and side-streets of Knin to

 6     begin with.

 7        Q.   Just looking at this document, and you've told us you've seen

 8     many of them, is there any reference to you -- other than it being

 9     distributed to you internally, is there any reference to you being

10     present at this meeting on the 7th of August?

11        A.   No.  I do not see anything referring to me being present at that

12     meeting, described as happening on the 7th of August.  However, I am in

13     the court under oath, and I was at a meeting attended by General Forand,

14     with Hussein Al-Alfi from civil affairs, EJ Flynn, Benny Otim, in the

15     office of General Forand, General Cermak, as I recall in my statement, on

16     the 8th of August.  You're pointing out the sitrep of the 7th, and I've

17     said what was for me very significant at that meeting.

18             MR. KAY:  Shall we, then, move to another document dated the

19     7thof August, Exhibit P111.

20        Q.   We're going to look at another document now, another UNMO HQ

21     Sector South daily sitrep, dealing with what happened on that day,

22     released by Mr. Ermolaev.  And we can see the first page there.

23             MR. KAY:  Let us now turn to page 7, a summary of meetings.

24        Q.   You'll see a time there in August, UN special representative

25     Mr. Akashi had a meeting.  You'll see in the next section a Sector South

Page 6886

 1     delegation, including DSMO.

 2        A.   I'm not seeing that.  It needs to go down, if it could be --

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4        A.   Yeah.

 5        Q.   Met in former ARSK HQ with newly posted military governor of

 6     Knin.  So it's another report of the same meeting, and you referred to

 7     there being other reports.  General Cermak and senior Croatian army

 8     liaison officer, Sector South delegation was told, UNMOs, CIVPOL, and

 9     other humanitarian would be able to monitor within Knin town boundaries

10     and other areas, but on the 8th of August, afternoon, Sector South would

11     receive info about the areas where security of UNMOs and other

12     humanitarian agencies - turning to next page - cannot be guaranteed.

13             Sector South delegation told:  Military and CIVPOL ... took over

14     control of Knin.  The next matter, the new military governor stated they

15     will try to re-establish electricity.  The next matter, General Cermak

16     expressed his desire to meet with refugees, and there was to be a meeting

17     on the 8th of August.

18             So just turning back to that page 7, which is the relevant matter

19     on this issue, would you agree this description is different from the

20     description given by you in your statement that at a meeting, General

21     Cermak was restricting the UN to the town centre and side-streets?

22        A.   I think that this document is an interpretation, but I can recall

23     what was said.  Here, if you look at the last few lines that:  "CIVPOL

24     and other humanitarian would be able to monitor within Knin town bounders

25     and other areas.  But on the 8th of August afternoon, Sector South would

Page 6887

 1     receive information about the areas where security of UNMOs and other

 2     humanitarian agencies can ..."

 3        Q.   "... not be guaranteed," is where it moves on to on the next

 4     page.

 5        A.   Right.  Well, I can recall at that same meeting that I have

 6     referred to in my report --

 7        Q.   Yours isn't a report; it's a statement.

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Yeah.

10        A.   But, nevertheless, sir, it was a document that was in other ways

11     passed on to my public information office in Zagreb.

12        Q.   Did you have contemporaneous notes of the meeting?

13        A.   I think I may have, but I don't know whether I have them now.

14     But I think that I recall having some of the meeting when I compiled some

15     of this in 1997, but I can't be sure.

16        Q.   Mr. Roberts, to make it clear, contemporaneous means at the time,

17     not what you write a couple of years later.

18        A.   I do understand.

19        Q.   Yes.  But do you have any notes at the time, written at the time?

20        A.   I do not recall I took notes of that meeting at that very time.

21        Q.   Were you present at that meeting?

22        A.   Yes.  I was present at a meeting with General Forand, General

23     Cermak in the centre of Knin, and I've said that now three times.  And I

24     was there and my colleagues who also were there would know I was there.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Anything else you would like to say, then, about

Page 6888

 1     the --

 2        A.   Can I just see the very first page of this sitrep that you

 3     brought up, if I could.

 4        Q.   Page 1.

 5        A.   The very front.

 6        Q.   Yeah.

 7        A.   Not that I'm saying I saw anything, but --

 8        Q.   For internal distribution PIO.

 9        A.   That's right, yeah.  Just on that last paragraph:  Croatian

10     authorities stated that restriction for UNMOs and other humanitarian

11     organizations will be lifted on the 8th of August, but there will be some

12     areas where security cannot be guaranteed."

13             May I for the court and for reference, my collection on that - I

14     don't know what has been said by other witnesses who may have been before

15     the Tribunal - again, I politely insist that I recall the sector

16     commander saying to General Cermak that the UN had the ability to decide

17     what were secure areas and what were not.

18        Q.   Very well.

19             MR KAY:  Let's now turn to Exhibit page 3 -- Exhibit

20     Prosecution 359.

21             Your Honour, actually looking at the time, we're going into the

22     matters on that day.  It may be better to take the second break at this

23     stage.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we'll now take a break and we'll resume

25     at a quarter to 1.00, so that we then have one hour still available

Page 6889

 1     today.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, please proceed.

 5             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6             Exhibit P359, please.

 7        Q.   This is a Sector South report again for the next day, the 8th of

 8     August, distributed internally to you, Mr. Roberts.  If we turn to page 2

 9     we see in commander's assessment that there was two meetings on this day,

10     one with Mr. Gotovina and one where Mr. Cermak.  And we're going to look

11     at the report of those meetings.

12             If we turn to page 3 of the document, the meeting with

13     Mr. Gotovina was in the Knin fortress, and you've referred to that as a

14     meeting of which you were aware.  Is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  I was aware of that meeting that Sector South commander

16     went to.  I think it was the meeting that President Tudjman came to the

17     fortress, and it was that meeting that General Forand went to.

18        Q.   Were you present at that meeting?

19        A.   If this is the meeting that was at the fortress, on the evening I

20     think of the 6th of August, I was not --

21        Q.   No.  This is at 9.20 on the 8th of August, 9.20 in the morning.

22        A.   No.  I was not at that meeting in the morning.

23        Q.   Yes.  And you can see in this report here that the meeting with

24     General Gotovina between General Forand, General Forand refers to having

25     met General Cermak previously, and that's the previous day.  And then

Page 6890

 1     you'll see, in part 2, that freedom of movement is discussed with General

 2     Gotovina.  Do you see that?

 3        A.   Yes, I do see that.

 4        Q.   Is this a sitrep that you read at the time?

 5        A.   I recall, if not seeing this document, something very similar to

 6     it, in regard to the issue of freedom of movement being set out.

 7        Q.   Court --

 8        A.   I'm looking at paragraph 3.  Just one moment if I could.  Some of

 9     this I can recall, but not very clearly in terms of it being like

10     yesterday.

11        Q.   Right.  You'll see in the third paragraph, as numbered on that

12     page, a meeting between General Forand and Mr. Cermak; and paragraph 1 of

13     that document, you'll see, recounts Colonel Cermak, it says this, coming

14     to HQ Sector South at 1.00 to meet with General Forand and a committee

15     of IDPs.  Now, that's the 8th of August.

16             Were you present when General Cermak met the IDPs that afternoon

17     at the UNCRO camp?

18        A.   I can't be sure right now that it was that meeting, but there was

19     a meeting certainly near the front gate of the Sector South camp one

20     afternoon.  I think I've put it in one of my statements it was later, but

21     it could have been the 8th of August.  If that was so and it was the

22     front gate at a table with chairs and so on, I was sitting at that table,

23     and General Cermak did address the -- what was a delegation of

24     representatives of the IDPs that had been established.  I thought that

25     took place later because that kind of discussion on whether they could

Page 6891

 1     have been representation I think took some days, but I could be wrong.

 2        Q.   You'll see in this subparagraph 1, of what's numbered 3 there at

 3     the bottom, that General Cermak's referred to being a very busy man, he

 4     was soon to go to his headquarters, he would give orders that UN elements

 5     would be allowed to travel freely within Knin and to Drnis, something he

 6     had been prevented from doing until now due to the pressure of his

 7     schedule.

 8             Do you see that?

 9        A.   I do see what it says there, yes.

10        Q.   Do you agree that the UNCRO report here recording what was said

11     reflects no restrictions to there being restricted movement within Knin

12     itself?

13        A.   I can see what it says, but I'm also recalling quite vividly the

14     internal discussions we had, and I do not think it was so easy that we

15     had freedom of movement or we moved around so quickly unrestricted.

16        Q.   Why I'm asking these questions is your characterization in your

17     statement of 2007, February 2007, at page 7, that Cermak eventually

18     agreed to let the UN patrol the main street and the centre part of the

19     town from the 8th of August, as though he'd been the subject of

20     considerable pressure by General Forand and he eventually gave a

21     concession.  That was not the case, was it, Mr. Roberts?

22        A.   Well, I'm very sorry, but I have to disagree with you.  I recall,

23     before we'd even met with General Cermak, the very strong feelings of

24     General Forand.

25        Q.   Can I just stop you there.  It's not general strong feelings

Page 6892

 1     about anyone.  You're not here giving a press conference of inaccurate

 2     information or summaries by you; it's exactly what was said that we're

 3     interested in.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Waespi.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  I think the witness should be allowed to explain.

 6     If counsel puts to him that he cannot -- wasn't honest or something, I

 7     think he should be at least given the chance to finish his sentence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me just read again what Mr. Kay --

 9             MR. KAY:  I don't want my time to be lost, Your Honour, by

10     unfocused answers not addressing the issue, and that's the submission I

11     make.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The witness only started his answer and may

13     finish his answer.

14             At the same time, Mr. Roberts, you're invited to answer as

15     concisely as possible mainly about facts, not about general impressions,

16     unless there are certain facts that led you to have these impressions.

17     The last question was:  Mr. Kay put it to you that it was not the case

18     that Mr. Cermak eventually agreed to let the UN patrol the main street

19     and the centre part of the town, only being subject of considerable

20     pressure by General Forand.  Could you please answer the question.

21             THE WITNESS:  Well, Your Honour, I do think there was a very

22     strong conversation that I recall taking place, not a long one, not a

23     long one, but I recall clearly the statement at the meeting of General

24     Cermak, that it was not completely secure for the UN to have freedom of

25     movement in all of Knin.

Page 6893

 1             And I recall the response of General Forand being, more or less,

 2     Thank you, sir, but the UN will have to decide what is secure and what is

 3     not.  We wish to have as soon as possible - I recall that, more or less,

 4     being said - freedom of movement in and around Knin and also to determine

 5     that for ourselves.

 6             And that was a kind of loggerhead point; and at the end of the

 7     meeting it was, Very well.  Okay.  You've got the centre of Knin and the

 8     side-streets.

 9             And, again, the issue came from General Cermak that it wasn't

10     completely secure, and he couldn't give consent beyond Knin.  That is my

11     very clear recollection of that meeting and very polite assistance of

12     General Alain Forand.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

14             MR. KAY:

15        Q.   You weren't at this meeting on the 8th of August, is that right,

16     at the camp?

17        A.   This meeting at the camp?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   As I've said earlier, I recall there being a meeting with the DPs

20     and attended by General Cermak.  I can't be sure it's this early on.

21        Q.   No.  It's at the meeting with General Forand and General Cermak

22     at the camp.

23        A.   No, I was not --

24        Q.   A meeting with the displaced persons is something entirely

25     different.

Page 6894

 1        A.   Right.  I was not at that meeting with General Forand and General

 2     Cermak at the camp together with the DPs.

 3        Q.   Did you know that General Gotovina had supplied a map on the

 4     8th of August to General Forand, showing the areas that could be used for

 5     travel?

 6        A.   I see paragraph 2 here, and I recall at the time being told of a

 7     discussion where maps would be produced by the Croatian military in

 8     regard to where we could patrol and move and where we could not.

 9        Q.   Did you know where that was produced from?  Did you know it was

10     General Gotovina?

11        A.   I did not know General Gotovina personally, if that's what you're

12     saying.  I understood it was from the Croatian military that maps would

13     be produced in regard to where we could go and did not go.  I'm looking

14     here, if I may, sir, at paragraph 2.  It does not, to my mind, record a

15     response or any real characterization of the issue of freedom of

16     movement.  It just says what General Gotovina had said he would do, in

17     regard to my interpretation there, we can go certain places, but maps

18     would define where we could go and where we could not.  That's not full

19     freedom of movement.

20        Q.   What I'm challenging -- Mr. Roberts, you've made statements

21     you've told the Court are the truth; and in those statements, you gave

22     your opinion that you assumed the desire of General Cermak to limit UN

23     access only to the centre of town was because this would allow further

24     clean-up in the streets and side roads away from the town centre without

25     UN personnel having access to see the real situation and what was

Page 6895

 1     happening.  That's what I'm addressing these questions to you --

 2        A.   I understand completely.

 3        Q.   -- because you insinuate in that part of your statement that

 4     General Cermak was trying to restrict movement around Knin so that crimes

 5     could be committed.  That was the purpose of you putting that in your

 6     statement, wasn't it?

 7        A.   I've heard you just say now so that crimes can be committed.  I

 8     have not said that.  I have the distinct impression of myself, my

 9     observations, and those of my colleagues of there being restrictions of

10     movement in the early days after Knin fell, and the conclusion was

11     because clean-up was certainly going on in a very, very quick and

12     vigorous and organized way.

13        Q.   So what do you mean by that?

14        A.   Because when we got out into town, we were seeing that places

15     that my colleagues and myself had seen on the 4th of August and others

16     had seen them on the 5th of August, glass windows of shops that had been

17     damaged replaced very, very quickly; other repairs going on to certain

18     places.

19        Q.   What's wrong with that?

20        A.   Just in terms of things being organized, as if in advance, to put

21     things together, and just in terms of what my colleagues had seen, and in

22     terms of the shelling on the 4th of August.  Traces of that were not

23     observed in the early part when we get out, and that was several days

24     after.  My colleagues --

25        Q.   Again, you move things further and further away from the

Page 6896

 1     question.  What you said in this statement here was:  " ...  to see the

 2     real situation and what was happening."

 3        A.   That's right.

 4        Q.   What did you mean by that in your statement if you weren't trying

 5     to insinuate that General Cermak was restricting movement within Knin so

 6     that crimes could be committed?

 7        A.   You are saying crimes could be committed.  I've never said that

 8     in a statement.  You're referring that I have said that and I have never

 9     said that.

10        Q.   What do you mean by "real situation"?

11        A.   I'm referring to the fact of the UN's desire from the evening of

12     the 5th of August to get out into Knin to verify what was happening in

13     town, and that we were restricted on that late afternoon by an APC, being

14     blocked, and we did not get out into town with any proper authority to

15     patrol regularly until the early part of the 8th of August.

16             And, therefore, I am saying we could not see what was going on,

17     but certainly a clean-up was going on and we were not able to verify to

18     say what did or did not take place.  I know very well that not only for

19     myself, my colleagues have also expressed the same opinion.

20             MR. KAY:  Can we look at Exhibit P513, please.

21        Q.   This is the document referred to on the 8th of August in that

22     sitrep which was the document promised to General Forand by General

23     Cermak, and you'll notice here the terms of that document.

24             "As of 8th of August, all UNCRO elements with clearly displayed

25     insignia may move freely in the areas of Knin and Drnis.

Page 6897

 1             "Advise them to use main roads only.  If they're turning off

 2     them, it is at their own risk ..."

 3             You would agree, there, nothing about restricting people to the

 4     centre of Knin and the side-streets?

 5        A.   I see what's written there is reference to "move freely in the

 6     areas," areas, "of Knin and Drnis.

 7             "2.  Advise them to use main roads only," only main roads.  "If

 8     they're turning off them, it is at their own risk ..."

 9             I do not see there, sir, a clear reference to full freedom of

10     movement.  I see paragraph 2 being an interpretation of what might be

11     restriction of UN movement to only main roads.  We did not ask for that.

12     And Knin and Drnis, does this mean though we could move along the road

13     from Knin to Drnis, roads off Drnis, roads off Knin?  Those are occasions

14     I know my colleagues have reported, restrictions of movement.

15        Q.   I'm asking you for your evidence, and can you explain why your

16     statement about what was the permission given to the UN, why it is

17     different from what was actually happening at the time?

18        A.   Well, what I'm looking at, sir, is a letter.  What is actually

19     happening on the ground as borne-out by my colleagues - and I don't know

20     if they testified or not - but from their reports is what I was going on.

21     And there was clear evidence in reality of restrictions of movement to UN

22     personnel, despite this particular letter.

23             And if I may, with due respect to the Court, I know very well

24     from seeing the letters that General Forand politely sent to General

25     Cermak letters protesting restrictions of movement on no less than six or

Page 6898

 1     seven occasions.  Those letters have passed to me.  I did not use them in

 2     any way before the press.

 3        Q.   Again, you talk about other things happening later, and I'm

 4     asking you to focus on what you have said was happening on the 7th or 8th

 5     of August, not what was happening days later and what was happening on

 6     the ground, but acts and conduct that you ascribe to General Cermak, not

 7     other things.  Can we get that clear?

 8        A.   Yes.  I think we are very clear, or at least I am very clear.  I

 9     am very clear what was said in the meeting with General Cermak, what was

10     advised to him -- the meeting with General Forand, sorry, advised to him

11     by General Cermak.  And I am very clear what I saw and my colleagues saw

12     in those same days in reality, and the two things are not the same.

13        Q.   Very well.  We'll move on to a new matter, and that concerns

14     General Cermak's appointment.  Did you know he was a civilian immediately

15     prior to the 5th of August, 1995?

16        A.   Not at the time, no.  "Not at the time," I mean not at the time

17     we were introduced to him as the military commander of Knin.  I believe

18     the right terminology is garrison commander, but I learned that later.

19     But I didn't know he had been in civilian life previously, no.

20        Q.   Had you seen in the press an article in Slobodna Dalmacija, dated

21     the 6th of August, 1995, about his appointment as commander of the Knin

22     garrison?

23        A.   I can't recall it being in Slobodna Dalmacija, but I recall our

24     press office monitoring the press at that time and reading that General

25     Cermak had been appointed to that post with that form of title, yes.

Page 6899

 1             MR. KAY:  For the Court purposes, we've seen the newspaper report

 2     at Exhibit D36.  I won't call that up now.

 3             Can we produce Exhibit D37.

 4        Q.   Your press office monitored the Croatian press; is that right?

 5        A.   That's correct, yes.  I think all UN missions have media

 6     monitoring units, yes.

 7        Q.   And this article in Slobodna Dalmacija, dated the 10th of August,

 8     1995, is an interview with General Cermak about the restoration of Knin

 9     and the surrounding area.  Was this an article that you would have seen

10     at the time?

11        A.   I can't recall now that we saw that article and translated it.

12     I'll explain very briefly.  We didn't have access to Croatian newspapers

13     in the normal way we had previously in the days following Operation

14     Storm.  So I recall the general context of it, but not necessarily that

15     we transcribed that newspaper article at the time.

16        Q.   Were you aware of the statements as in this article, about the

17     task of General Cermak:  "We are in the process of restoring the Knin

18     Garrison.  We are doing our best to bring normality back to a town with

19     no civilian authorities, no water, electricity, or telephone lines."

20             Were you aware of that as being his task?

21        A.   You're telling me that's his task.

22        Q.   Yeah.

23        A.   Is that from the newspaper report --

24        Q.   Yes.  Yeah.

25        A.   -- itself?

Page 6900

 1        Q.   Paragraph 3, it's an interview with him.

 2        A.   I'd be very careful.  I respect very well the description of

 3     General Cermak himself and his authorities, but I don't know precisely

 4     what was the official authorities -- that explains one function of work.

 5     "We are doing our best," where "we" I would suppose being the Croatian

 6     authorities, and an interpretation of his:  "A town with no civilian

 7     authorities," yes, "no water," which is a very general description of

 8     what his -- some of his duties might be.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Were you aware of that?

10        A.   I was not aware that that officially was his sole

11     responsibility - not that I'm suggesting it is - but I'm not -- if you're

12     saying that was his function --

13        Q.   You're not here to suggest anything, just to give us what you

14     knew.

15        A.   Well, you're asking me what I'm seeing in the quote --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Kay, if you're saying that --

17             MR. KAY:  I take the point, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- this was his function, then the witness as a

19     matter of fact asks, seeks clarification of your question, so that he's

20     fully entitled to do so.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. KAY:

23        Q.   Yes.  Would you like to add anything else?  I wouldn't like to

24     cut you off, Mr. Roberts.

25        A.   It's okay, sir.

Page 6901

 1        Q.   Yeah.

 2        A.   Clearly, the town, in the days following Operation Storm, yes,

 3     these things were a problem, as I recollect, for UN Sector South

 4     headquarters:  Lack of electricity, supply being regular, water-supply

 5     was off for, I think, a day.  Yes.  Those things were a good

 6     characterization here as presented by General Cermak in his quotation

 7     marks.

 8             MR. KAY:  D38, please, Exhibit D38.

 9        Q.   This is from Vecernji List that we're going to look at in a

10     moment, another newspaper, 11th of August, 1995, where the task of

11     General Cermak is set out in paragraph 2 in the English.

12             "My task is to coordinate the establishment of civilian

13     authority ... running of all systems necessary for a normal life of the

14     town.  That includes coordinating the work of the civilian police, the

15     military police, and the civilian authority.  Currently, there is no

16     civilian authority in Knin.  The government has appointed its

17     commissioner Petar Pasic ..."

18             And we can see the rest of the text.  Again, a report you would

19     have seen at the time?

20        A.   I think I recall, sir, not exactly the time the newspaper was

21     published, but I think we had a copy of that within a few days, and I'm

22     not sure it was translated at the time, but I remember being told and

23     then a rough-hand translation was made of some of these extracts that

24     you've pointed out here --

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 6902

 1        A.   -- in terms of especially the one where General Cermak is saying,

 2     "My task is to coordinate, as this is before us here."

 3        Q.   How many meetings were you at where General Cermak was present?

 4        A.   I was present at not very many meetings.  The meeting of the

 5     8th of August, as I recall, with the main UN officials.  There was, I

 6     think, one or two other meetings I attended with EJ Flynn and Mr. Hussein

 7     Al-Alfi later on in regard to human rights and humanitarian matters.  And

 8     there was a meeting I was present at, as I explained, where General

 9     Cermak did address a delegation of DPs I felt later in the week of the

10     8th of August, some weeks further on, I think, just inside the gates of

11     Sector South.

12             And that was about it in terms of my being at meetings rather

13     than having meetings with, if I can put it like that.

14             Then the last one was perhaps was the evening of the big bus

15     convoy leaving Sector South headquarters to go across to Serbia with the

16     DPs in the camp, where there was a group of male persons who were

17     identified as allegedly having committed war crimes, and we talked very

18     briefly at the gate that night.

19             That's about it.

20        Q.   In relation to the tasks that he was to deal with, you didn't

21     know anything about the Croatian government system as to why he was there

22     and what powers he had from them.  You didn't know anything about that?

23        A.   I did not.  I recall, sir, that I had asked my press office in

24     Zagreb mission headquarters just for information:  Did they have a

25     document, official or otherwise, in terms of the right title of General

Page 6903

 1     Cermak, his terms of reference as set out by the Croatian government

 2     authorities who appointed him.  I did not get anything like that from my

 3     press office, so I was not clear in terms of what was the official exact

 4     terminology of the Croatian government defined for General Cermak.

 5             MR. KAY:  We'll look at Exhibit D36, then, which is another

 6     passage from Slobodna Dalmacija on the 6th of August, 1995, the day after

 7     his appointment.

 8        Q.   It's headed --

 9        A.   Could I just -- sorry.  Is it allowable for me to make a comment

10     on this article that's before us already in Slobodna Dalmacija that's

11     quoted by General Cermak or not?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Not at this moment.

13             THE WITNESS:  No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  If at the end of your testimony you would like to

15     add anything you consider relevant and if you make a note of that so as

16     to remember, that's fine, but not during the examination by Mr. Kay --

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  -- unless it becomes relevant in relation to one of

19     the questions.

20             MR. KAY:  Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

22             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23        Q.   This was the report of Slobodna Dalmacija of the appointment that

24     was made the previous day, the 5th of August, and you can see the

25     Croatian newspaper piece there and the translation on the left of the

Page 6904

 1     screen.  Was this a document that you saw at the time?

 2        A.   I recall seeing this maybe at least over a week or maybe two

 3     weeks after it was published.  There were, I think, one or two other

 4     similar ones in other mainstream Croatian press based upon, you can see

 5     here, it says Zagreb HINA.  HINA is the Croatian press agency.  But I go

 6     with that.  So I can recall reading a week or two after the actual

 7     publication of the article.

 8        Q.   And within the structure that -- sorry, within the structure of

 9     the Croatian armed forces, the position of commander of Knin garrison,

10     was that something you researched or someone informed you about at the

11     time?

12        A.   I recall - being careful that I'm not stepping out of the direct

13     question - but I recall discussion at Sector South headquarters about the

14     terms of reference of General Cermak.  I don't want to say anything

15     further in case I'm not answering the question.  But I see here and I

16     remember seeing at the time, these were set out to be, according to HINA,

17     the Croatian press agency, his duties and tasks as commander of the Knin

18     garrison.

19        Q.   Right.  Okay.

20        A.   It's like a biography.

21        Q.   Yes.  It's released the next day.  In terms of what you knew, he

22     said he was there to assist the UN in Sector South; that's right, isn't

23     it?

24        A.   That's what I really recall General Cermak saying in a very - I

25     can say this - in a sense of cooperation, that he portrayed in words that

Page 6905

 1     if there should be difficulties, problems, freedom of movement,

 2     humanitarian issues, without him actually saying those words, that we

 3     should come to him, that he should be the person we have in our mind as

 4     the main interlocutor in Knin.  And that's why, I think, my colleagues

 5     who, because of their specific mandates, had meetings with him more

 6     regular than I did, people like the sector commander, Mr. Al-Alfi, civil

 7     affairs, EJ Flynn, Benny Otim, and so on.  But he, General Cermak, was

 8     the person that they would go and meet with.

 9        Q.   And as you said, you were only at a few meetings on other

10     matters, but were you aware that his role in relation to the internally

11     displaced persons in the camp was to help UNCRO try and solve that

12     problem on its door-step?

13        A.   He was, yes, the main interlocutor on behalf of the Croatian

14     government authorities that General Forand had meetings with on that

15     particular issue of the DPs.  General Forand was also at times

16     accompanied at times, I understand, by people such as the head of UN

17     civil affairs because it was a political civilian matter as well.  But

18     that was our main interlocutor.  General Forand, too, General Cermak at

19     the Sector South level in Knin; and to their counterpart separate

20     headquarters UN, and I suppose to the Croatian government through the

21     command of General Cermak, on which there were many, many discussions

22     about that particular problem that you've highlighted.

23        Q.   The Court has seen a vast raft of documents solely on those

24     issues.

25        A.   Sorry.

Page 6906

 1             MR. KAY:  And, Your Honour, I don't propose to go through those

 2     in the interests of time, as it was only a few weeks ago.  Even if it had

 3     been months ago, I know the Court would know the material.

 4        Q.   When you described General Forand reporting, did you mean to

 5     UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb?

 6        A.   On the issue of the DPs, or on --

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   Yes.  That was a very sensitive matter for a range of reasons,

 9     notwithstanding the fact of the quite strong, understandable, but strong

10     insistence on the Croatian authorities of there being suspected war

11     criminals amongst the DPs that they wished to interview, and there was

12     many discussions on that aspect before it was finally resolved.  I think

13     the Court probably knows the documentation.

14        Q.   Yes.  You refer in your statement to the people who were

15     eventually separated from the main group of people who were to be allowed

16     out of the camp to go to Serbia or Bosnia, wherever it was, that they

17     eventually went; that there was a number, 35 in fact, who were retained

18     under the authority of the Croatian government for questioning in

19     relation to suspected war crimes.  You were aware of that?

20        A.   I think it was very well documented.  I have referred to it, I

21     think, in my 1997 statement.  Yes, in simplified terms, although it was a

22     very big issue.  When you say "separate," it was that evening, basically,

23     that we had resolved over a period of a week or more with the assistance

24     of a UN - I won't say certified - but UN-blessed Croatian advocate, a

25     woman lawyer, to come into the Sector South camp to interview what was a

Page 6907

 1     much reduced list of male persons in the DP community, in the camp, to

 2     meet with them, to discuss with them.  And we got - we didn't get - but

 3     the list came down to about 34, 35.

 4        Q.   We have seen all this evidence --

 5        A.   Okay.

 6        Q.   -- yet.

 7        A.   Well, the evening concerned they were put on buses outside the

 8     Sector South headquarters first and driven away to respective detention

 9     centres, I think, in Split, Zadar, elsewhere, Sibenik; and then, after

10     that, the DPs some hours later were put on other buses, many buses, to go

11     across to Serbia and elsewhere.

12        Q.   Now, in your statement, you're critical of General Cermak being

13     present when Croatian authorities were filming these suspects leaving the

14     camp, and you say you became involved in a way by then filming the

15     Croatian TV or reporters who were recording the matter.  And you were

16     critical of General Cermak in respect of that.  Do you recollect that in

17     your statement?

18        A.   I recollect it very well, sir.

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   Just looking at that, do you think what you were doing, was in

22     fact, being provocative by filming Croatian authorities filming people

23     who had not been in their custody or authority, but were coming out of

24     the UN and coming into the authority of the Croatian government?

25        A.   You are asking if you think I personally was not being

Page 6908

 1     provocative?

 2        Q.   Yes, that you were being provocative by then filming the filmers.

 3        A.   Right.

 4        Q.   It's at paragraphs 29 to 33 --

 5        A.   I have it in front of me.

 6        Q.   -- of you're August 1997 statement.

 7        A.   First of all, to try and summarize this for the Court, this was a

 8     very difficult evening, a long evening, at the end of a lot of

 9     negotiation by senior UN officials in Zagreb headquarters, one of two of

10     which were deployed to Sector South to assist this whole process of the

11     handing over of those suspected of committing war crimes to the Croatian

12     authorities and the others a few hours later to be bussed out to

13     respective communities or whatever through Republic of Croatia to Serbia.

14             On that evening - without going away from your question, but just

15     for a slight moment - there was discussion of adding on additional

16     numbers of males to the agreed 34, I think.  That's a side issue.  But as

17     they were going out, the males who were the alleged war crimes suspects,

18     quite rightly being handed over to the Croatian authorities to face the

19     evidence against them, I was quite astonished that the TV unit came

20     forward and filmed them very close up, face-on, as they went into the

21     doors of the buses.

22             I talked to EJ Flynn.  We had the UN TV crew inside the gates,

23     and I decided to go with EJ, who as I understood it made representation

24     to General Cermak that this is not very helpful, polite.  It was

25     insinuating by the camera, if this was broadcast, that these were, in

Page 6909

 1     fact, guilty people.  And I said, Okay, let's try to maybe remove the

 2     cameras.  The cameras, as were described, as I recall it, by General

 3     Cermak, were for internal use or Croatian authority use only.  I recall

 4     seeing that this was not just the private or Croatian authority video

 5     unit, but an emblem on the camera of a Croatian TV station.  And that was

 6     why I was not annoyed, but I just thought, Okay.  Well, we can go and

 7     film for our record of the UN on record on tape the UN TV's record of a

 8     Croatian TV crew filming suspected war crimes suspects going on the bus.

 9             And my colleagues from UN TV went and did this, it was all over

10     in about 20 seconds, and they came back inside the gates.  As they came

11     back in inside, I recall that General Cermak was not entirely happy, to

12     put it politely, and did say to me words to the effect that this was seen

13     as provocation, was not helpful, and words were directed to me directly

14     in terms of my behaviour, to put it politely.  I can say this.  I can

15     understand it was a very pressurised moment, but I did not on the

16     specific issue think it right that the TV crew should film in the way

17     that it was, and this was the only reason I persuaded or suggested the UN

18     TV crew might film what was happening from inside the gates, and then to

19     go out and film by the bus doorway.

20        Q.   So what purpose did your filming the Croatians serve?  It's not

21     immediately apparent.

22        A.   The filming stopped.

23        Q.   What purpose --

24        A.   The filming by the Croatian TV crew of those going through the

25     gates to the bus stopped shortly after the UN TV crew began filming them,

Page 6910

 1     because it was a record of what I thought was in terms of the conduct of

 2     a government authority to act properly at the time it was receiving

 3     persons who had allegedly committed serious crimes, in this case war

 4     crimes.  But there is, I think, a professional conduct expected.  And to

 5     my mind and I know from my colleague EJ Flynn and from UNHCR colleagues

 6     there at the gates, this was thought of as not being proper.  And that

 7     was the reason we did this with the UN TV.  And UN TV inside the gates of

 8     Sector South are entitled to film on UN property what was before them,

 9     but they were not doing that until that moment.

10        Q.   What's it for you to decide whether the Croatian government

11     should tape these steps or not?  There are a number of readily apparent

12     reasons as to why suspects coming from the custody or coming from the

13     place of one party into the custody of another party may want to film

14     their condition, what they looked like, and their identities.  Can't you

15     see that?

16        A.   Oh, I can see it very well, sir, and I think that that kind of

17     behaviour, not just from myself but from others who have got more

18     expertise in international humanitarian law who were inside the UN Sector

19     South, not just Sector South personnel but those sent down from

20     headquarters Zagreb, were of the same clear opinion, that this was one

21     step beyond what was appropriate behaviour.  And in my experience later

22     in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the issue of war crimes suspects, I had never

23     seen or never saw that kind of behaviour again from a local TV crew in

24     the presence of their respective local or government authorities acting

25     in that way.

Page 6911

 1        Q.   Well, you don't know whether they were a local TV crew and you

 2     don't know what purposes the recording was for, do you?

 3        A.   I would suspect, sir, that if it's a UN -- if it's a Croatian

 4     television broadcasting company, that they are filming a report for what

 5     would be news TV purposes.  If they were going to be producing a film to

 6     hand it over for the Croatian authorities, then one would suspect that

 7     they are not a legitimate TV organization.  But on the actual camera back

 8     was the logo of a TV station.

 9        Q.   Did you ask?  Did you ask?

10        A.   Did I ask the TV crew?

11        Q.   Did you ask why it was happening?

12        A.   No, because there was a lot of activity at the front of the gates

13     and a very sensitive situation.  I decided, once the actual situation had

14     subsided with the TV crew filming face on the faces of the people

15     entering the buses, that that had stopped.  They moved away, they did not

16     seem angry with the UN TV crew or EJ Flynn or myself, and they just

17     stopped filming.

18        Q.   And what was your business as a press and information officer to

19     start interfering in a delicately arranged matter between the United

20     Nations and the Croatian government?

21        A.   Well, sir, I was not interfering, and that was not what I did on

22     that evening at all.  The process by which long negotiations between the

23     Croatian government authorities and the UN mission at Zagreb headquarters

24     had concluded were ongoing.  This is one particular specific incident

25     that occurred, and not only myself but others there from UN human rights,

Page 6912

 1     from mission headquarters Zagreb felt this was inappropriate.  And our UN

 2     TV crew could have also been filming away what, I think, was quite a

 3     sensitive situation did not do so because we thought it was quite

 4     inappropriate to film and, therefore, stepped-up to make that small

 5     gesture or shot at the time that they happened.  It was all over within

 6     about 20 seconds or less, as I stated in my statement of 1997.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, could we move on.  We've now spent quite

 8     some time on what moved, how one moved to film one way, and what moved

 9     another one to film the ones filming.

10             MR. KAY:  I agree, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And that seems not to be the core of this case.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KAY:

14        Q.   Were you aware, in fact, that the UNCRO had written to the

15     Ministry of Defence of the Government of Croatia, Exhibit D316, about the

16     transport of refugees being carried out in accordance with the UNCRO and

17     Sector South commander's plan and various international organizations

18     from Sector South and other agency took part.  One of the key persons of

19     success of this mission was Colonel-General Cermak, liaison officers

20     Captain Lukovic, Mrsa, and Dondo.  And General Cermak was congratulated

21     by Colonel Blahna for quick and professional arrangements.

22        A.   Yes.  I've seen this letter before and I've seen it now.

23             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I've finished this matter, and I note the

24     time and rather than start a new subject.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 6913

 1             Could the parties give any indication as to the time still needed

 2     with Mr. Roberts.

 3             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I would have from my original time

 4     estimate no longer than two hours before I finish.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  The other Defence counsel.

 6             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'll be up next and I will estimate

 8     two hours.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That makes four.

10             Mr. Misetic.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Obviously, depending on what happens in front of

12     me, Judge, but I would say four.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  That would mean that it would take us two more days.

14             Mr. Roberts, did I hear a sigh or --

15             THE WITNESS:  No, no, not at all.  No, no.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good.

17             We adjourn for the day.  We will resume tomorrow morning, 9.00.

18     But I'd first like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone

19     about your testimony, whether the testimony you gave already today or

20     testimony still to be given in days to come.

21             Madam Registrar, we resume tomorrow at 9.00 in this same

22     courtroom?

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be, unfortunately, in Courtroom II,

25     tomorrow, 9.00.

Page 6914

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

 3                           July, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.