1 Wednesday, 23 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour, good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, The
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Good morning, Mr. Roberts. I would like to remind you that you
13 are still bound by the solemn declaration that you've given at the
14 beginning of your testimony.
15 Are you ready Mr. Misetic to continue.
16 MR. MISETIC: I am, Your Honours. One housekeeping matter. We
17 left yesterday with the exhibit 1D41-0043 and I would like to tender that
18 into evidence, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: No objection. Of course, this -- I'm not quite sure
22 what the documents are from although some other documents I think later
23 reveal that it was the Croatian authorities who seized these documents
24 or -- but some of them are not signed. I think this specific one hasn't
25 been signed so there is some issue about reliability, but we don't
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what you actually say is be careful but we do
3 not object. I mean, we're always careful, Mr. Waespi. If there's a real
4 issue about not being signed, then, of course, if there are no objections
5 we will admit and then we will see what weight to give it.
6 Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D702.
8 JUDGE ORIE: D702 is admitted into evidence.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 WITNESS: ALUN ROBERTS [Resumed]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic: [Continued]
13 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Roberts.
14 A. Good morning. Could I just one point of clarification. I know
15 it is it not appropriate, but --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it depends what you seek to be
18 THE WITNESS: Please advise me, Your Honour. I'm in your hands.
19 In regard to the file of articles which I was given by Defence counsel I
20 was invited to review these and I did last night, and I've made my
21 responses and I can do them orally but I have also prepared a very small
22 brief and I've gone through every single article in the file and I have
23 colour coded them with my quotations and those of other UN senior
24 spokespersons and officials. I would like to ask, if I can, to have this
25 file entered as my response with the memo in front of it which I can
1 explain or would like to explain at the appropriate time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Misetic.
4 MR. MISETIC: My proposal, Your Honour, would be that Mr. Waespi
5 and I during the next break take a look at the binder so that I could at
6 least see what it is and then --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. MISETIC: -- ask questions about it in the next portion if
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Or tender --
11 MR. MISETIC: Or -- right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, there is one thing, Mr. Misetic, you
13 asked the question. You asked the witness to do something and to tell us
14 what he found.
15 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So finally, under those circumstances, I would say,
17 whether it is in written form or in oral form, the Chamber is entitled to
18 receive a response to that question.
19 MR. MISETIC: Absolutely, Your Honour. I just would like to see,
20 what he said, some sort of writing, analysis or --
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. What we'll do, Mr. Roberts, is that if
22 you would give a copy of your written response, so to say, to the
23 parties, they have a look at it and then they will see whether it is a
24 format in which the Chamber could receive your answers, and if not, then
25 Mr. Misetic will give you an opportunity to answer the question he
1 yesterday put to you.
2 THE WITNESS: I understand. I would like a chance to respond
3 orally as well, but I'm in your hands.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, both I leave it to some extent in
5 Mr. Misetic's hands. He is limited in his time.
6 THE WITNESS: I understand.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you have clearly answered the question, then I
8 take it, Mr. Misetic, you'll give an opportunity to Mr. Roberts --
9 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- to add whatever he wants to add --
11 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- to his written answer.
13 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. MISETIC: Thank you. Mr. Registrar, if I could call up
16 1D41-0401. This is a video.
17 Q. Mr. Roberts, this is a sort clip of the press conference held in
18 the ARSK headquarters with General Forand and yourself on the 4th of
19 August at around noon
20 in your statement. Again, it is only a short portion of it; it is all we
21 have. But I would like you to take a look at it, and I will ask you just
22 a few questions about.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. MISETIC:
25 Q. Mr. Roberts, does that video, at least those portions that we
1 were able to see, accurately reflect part of the discussion at the press
2 conference on the 4th of August, 1995?
3 A. Yes, it does. Yeah.
4 Q. Do you recall General Forand talking about the UN troops being
5 able to hold back the HV in certain portions?
6 A. I recalled some of what he said now, now that have I seen it
7 again, that he said the very initial phases of the operation. That was
8 the Zone of Separation and the UN in the Zone of Separation largely he
9 was referring to, and that was quite a big concern for the General in
10 terms of what was going on to the UN peacekeepers in the Zone of
11 Separation in the four battalion areas.
12 Q. That press conference took place in the ARSK army headquarters.
13 Is that correct?
14 A. I don't think so. We went to the government building where the
15 press centre usually was at the back as a separate room but I think
16 everything in basic chaos. We found ourselves I think in the ante-room
17 to the canteen/cafeteria area that is in the central lobby or was in the
18 central lobby of that main building downstairs. You can see the boarded
19 up background and everything. Yeah. It was have very impromptu press
20 briefing bearing in mind the situation.
21 Q. Were there armed ARSK soldiers in the vicinity of the place that
22 you were holding your press conference?
23 A. I can't recall. Everything was very much fluid. It was not a
24 very long press briefing, but I don't recall that there were military
25 people running around.
1 MR. MISETIC: Can we show the video one more time. If you could
2 now --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, could you assist me. This video was
4 not shown to General Forand?
5 MR. MISETIC: We received the video within the last three days,
6 Your Honour. So I didn't have it at that time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that explains, because my question would have
8 been it would not have been put to Mr. Forand. But please proceed.
9 MR. MISETIC: If you could pay attention in the background there
10 and see if you can spot anyone with a weapon in the back.
11 [Videotape played]
12 MR. MISETIC: If we could go back a little bit.
13 Q. Is that person carrying a rifle in the back? It's a shadowy
14 figure, but do you see that?
15 A. Coming in now.
16 Q. Right above General Forand's head there. There seems to be a
17 rifle or something there off to the left of the individual. Directly
18 under the letter K if you --
19 A. Yes, I'm looking. I in honesty can't be sure. I don't know what
20 people are seeing at the same time that I'm looking at this. But I can't
21 recall from looking at it that it is, but you may have analysed it better
22 than me. I don't know. I didn't, from where I'm seated down on the seat
23 there, see anything behind me.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I'm just looking at the same as all of us are.
1 MR. MISETIC: I thought maybe that would refresh your
3 Your Honour, I would tender the video then into evidence, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, no objections.
5 Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit D703, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D703 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me show you a few documents and, again, this is
10 in the interests of saving some time. I will show you about three
11 documents and then ask you a few questions about it.
12 Before I do, on that video did you recognise who your interpreter
13 was there?
14 A. Well, there is the interpreter I referred to yesterday in our
15 session, in the private session.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Yeah.
18 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if we could call up 1D41-0024.
19 Q. This is a document of the security department of the command of
20 the 7th corps of the ARSK. Topic is Alun Roberts, spokesman,
21 Sector South command observations. And then the first paragraph says:
22 The security department of the military department --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
24 MR. WAESPI: I'm not sure whether we should go into private
25 session for this. I can explain it briefly why I think it might be --
1 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 7030-7031 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me say that we are now going to look through a
5 series of documents seized by the Croatian government from ARSK
6 intelligence services. This is in line with operation Horizont, which we
7 looked at yesterday towards the end of the day. If names appear in these
8 documents, you should be aware that that does not mean that the -- that
9 the Trial Chamber has made a finding that the individuals referenced
10 there actually engaged in the activities referenced in the documents.
11 That will be a decision for the Trial Chamber to make at a later date.
12 And --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Reliability of these documents is a matter
14 still to be considered, but these documents apparently exist. And
15 they -- Mr. Misetic will put some questions about.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
17 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
18 Q. Now, the document we have on the screen, Mr. Roberts, references
19 you at the top, the date is 14 December 1994
20 security department of the military department, through the cooperation
21 with Agent Student, obtained certain materials regarding Rob
23 JUDGE ORIE: Information, it reads, Mr. Misetic.
24 MR. MISETIC: Sorry.
25 Q. "Certain information Rob Henderson, a Canadian, as well as
1 materials, photocopied materials) that he found on Alun Roberts's table."
2 And the bottom paragraph notes what the attachment is, which were
3 documents found on Alun Roberts's table.
4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if I could -- again, I'm going group
5 these together so if I could tender this into evidence and get a D number
6 for it?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
8 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D704.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D704 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D41-0032, please.
14 Q. This is a document from the 24th of November, 1994. The subject
15 is Kotil, Roberts, Stigner. I don't know if I pronounced that correctly.
16 "Observation of their activities and then again the document references
17 the contact with the Agent Student, expanded its knowledge of activities
18 of Kotil, Roberts, and Stigner and other members of the UNPROFOR in the
19 newly emerged situation."
20 If you go down to the fourth paragraph: "Alongside other
21 materials the agent submitted a letter sent by General Kotil to General
22 Ante Gotovina commending the latter for his cooperation in solving the
23 problem of the observation post in Crno by Zadar.
24 "The agent was instructed to continue his activities and to
25 report on significant events."
1 Can we turn the page to this document, please?
2 A. Just to the end of the document, scroll up. Yeah, thank you.
3 Q. Tell us when you're ready, Mr. Roberts.
4 A. I have finished with that document.
5 Q. I was waiting for you --
6 A. I'm sorry.
7 MR. MISETIC: Can we have the next page in English, please.
8 Q. "The work method applied," on the bottom, "the object of the
9 method of application, Kotil, Roberts and Stigner."
10 If we could go to the next page, please. These are the actual
11 notes of the meeting with Agent Student. You can take a look at it, if
12 you wish. Talks about where you live, what you're doing. I won't read
13 it. I'll let you take a look.
14 Tell me when you're finished, Mr. Roberts.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender this document into evidence.
18 MR. TIEGER: No objections, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number D705, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D705 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D41-0040, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Roberts, I can imagine that you'd like to -- I
24 don't whether you can store all the information because the questions are
25 postponed until after we've seen all the documents. If there would be
1 any need for you to look at the documents, again I take it that there are
2 hard copies available.
3 Please proceed.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm fine.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
6 Q. This a document 20 November 1994
7 meeting with Agent Student regarding the meeting between the commander of
8 the 7th Corps and HV General Gotovina which was also attended by the
9 commander of Sector South. Cover page asks or says that the agent,
10 meaning Agent Student was instructed to monitor the activities of
11 UNPROFOR and any indicators of possible Ustasha aggression against the
13 If we could go to the third page of this document, please.
14 A. Let me read the first paragraph.
15 Q. Sure. Again just tell me when you're finished.
16 A. Yeah.
17 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to the third page of this document,
19 Q. These are the actual explanation or notes of the meeting with
20 Agent Student.
21 Second paragraph: "On 18 November 1994, I held a special meeting
22 with Agent Student, due to the fact that we needed to urgently
23 investigate an important document.
24 "At the aforementioned meeting which was held in Zemunik, our
25 agent arrived with Alun Roberts."
1 Now first let me just ask you, Zemunik, just for the Trial
2 Chamber, was in Croatian-held territory. Is that correct?
3 A. Zemunik was the crossing point -- one of the crossing points that
4 was an official crossing point between the internal sector to go across
5 the Zone of Separation to what we can say is -- was then Croatian
6 territory proper and proceed on to various cities, towns in Croatia
7 proper at that time. You come back through that if you're going into
8 Zadar, for example.
9 Q. Okay. Can you read the rest of the paragraph but just I will
10 read out the fourth paragraph: "Our agent wasn't able to hear the
11 separate conversation between General Kotil and General Gotovina because
12 he was, most of the time, at the side of Alun Robertson," should be Alun
13 Roberts, "as his interpreter."
14 Then it says: "Upon returning from Zemunik to Knin our agent was
15 able to take off from the fax machine at the southern camp the letter of
16 De Laprel for President Martic."
17 Tell me when you're finished reading the document, sir.
18 A. Just for the Court Chamber, I think either you, sir, or me should
19 make maybe some references to who these other people are and the fact
20 that they are UN personnel that are referred to in various places there
21 in the last paragraph, not that they're international organisations.
22 They're UN officials.
23 Yes, okay.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Roberts, I'll stop here and ask you some questions.
25 Were you aware that you were attending official meetings with
1 interpreters who were in fact agents, intelligence agents of the ARSK?
2 A. Could I ask that in order to give a full reply we go into private
3 session or -- I'm in the hands of the --
4 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour --
5 A. I have to refer to names.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we turn into private session in which you can
7 explain why you consider it necessary to go into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 7039-7040 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, first may I -- am I allowed to put to
21 the witness what he has just said in terms of the conversation that was
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd briefly summarize that and in as neutral
24 wording as possible, then there's no problem with that.
25 MR. MISETIC:
1 Q. Mr. Roberts, I think while we were in private session you said
2 that the Agent Student, you believe to be an individual named Predrag
3 Sare and that Mr. Sare at some point advised you and other members of the
4 UN in Sector South that he in fact was being pressured to provide
5 intelligence -- pressured by the Serb authorities to provide intelligence
6 information to their intelligence services.
7 Have I accurately summarized what you have stated? And if I
8 haven't, please clarify.
9 A. I can go into this -- I'm also aware that we're in open session
10 and that we're now going to say about this person, I'm clearly sure is
11 going to jeopardize not just reputation, but future activities in a very
12 definite sense, but if that's on the record and I'm advised I must reply,
13 then, fine.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course the Chamber will also consider
15 justified concerns for the safety and security of witnesses. We have
16 protective measures for that. However, in the present situation we're
17 now talking about, apparently, of course, we would have to hear all of
18 the evidence, but apparently not talking about people's -- people being
19 victimised and people being exposed to threats or threats against the
20 welfare of themselves or their families because they testify, but for
21 totally different reasons, the Chamber, at this moment, sees no reason to
22 specifically protect the persons in relation to which questions will be
24 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
25 THE WITNESS: The person named as the interpreter, Mr. Sare, as I
1 said in answer to the question, yes, he had come to the UN and confessed
2 these so-called pressures that he was passing information to the
3 authorities in Knin.
4 MR. MISETIC:
5 Q. So would it fair to say then -- first can you give us a date.
6 When did he have this conversation with you?
7 A. It was about this time, as far as I can recall. It was not only
8 with me. I think that it was also prior to that with other UN officials
9 in Sector South.
10 Q. So when you "this time," you're referring to November and
11 December 1994?
12 A. I can't be exact. I'm just looking at the dates of this
13 correspondence and the activities of the UN.
14 Q. Okay. Well, winter of 1994?
15 A. Approximately like that, yes. It was towards the end of that
16 year, maybe something like that.
17 Q. Now, yesterday we went through the UN peacekeeping manual for
18 public information. One of the rules was UN needs to maintain
19 impartiality particularly with its local staff, yet you after being
20 advised by Mr. Sare in the winter of 1994 that he was being pressured to
21 and in fact had passed information to RSK intelligence, you continued to
22 employ him as your interpreter, including at official meetings with
23 General Gotovina. Is that correct?
24 A. No, that is not correct. I, first of all, do not employ, as I
25 understand the crux of your question, recruit or employ people. That's
1 the UN personnel's department. He was not an interpreter specifically
2 for the press office. I explained he was also a -- an interpreter,
3 sorry, for the other departments of the UN in Sector South, the civil
4 affairs department, humanitarian department and occasionally for the
5 sector commander.
6 Q. Well --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between
8 question and answer, thank you.
9 MR. MISETIC:
10 Q. You utilized him as your interpreter even -- oh, sorry. Even
11 after you found out that he was passing information, you personally
12 continued to utilize him as your interpreter. Correct?
13 A. I used him on occasions, but I also more frequently used other
14 interpreters who were available to me.
15 Q. Well --
16 A. And could I add on that same point, that I understand the thrust
17 of this is being put to me as the public information officer. Again,
18 this was discussed by senior officials in headquarters Sector South
19 outside of my knowledge, and he continued as an interpreter on the role
20 of the interpreter's pool in Sector South headquarters at that time,
21 attending not only information meetings but also was thought okay to
22 attend political meetings with the RSK authorities on UN matters.
23 Q. Well, Mr. Roberts --
24 MR. MISETIC: First can I tender this document. In light of this
25 question, I have to move on to a separate document to show the witness,
1 but I tender this document into evidence that's on the screen.
2 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit number D706, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: D706 is admitted into evidence.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. MISETIC:
8 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me take you to 65 ter 4044.
9 This is a document tendered by the Prosecution into evidence.
10 You will recognise this report. This is the report of 9 August 1995 in
11 which you, amongst other things, in great detail describe the incident
12 with the interpreter when he went back to his apartment.
13 Now if we could turn the page, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, the date, as a matter of fact, I don't
15 know whether it has been an attempt to highlight by a marker or something
16 like that, but the date --
17 MR. MISETIC: In the upper right-hand corner, Your Honour, and it
18 has been produced by the Prosecution as having been written on the 9th of
19 August, but in the upper right-hand corner there's a fax date of 9
20 August 1995.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I will have a look at it.
22 MR. WAESPI: Yes, this is correct. I don't think it is an
23 exhibit yet. It is it part of our motion to admit it via this witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --
25 MR. MISETIC: I just said it was tendered. I know it's awaiting
1 whether it is going to be admitted or not, but ... on the second page,
2 Your Honour, you can also see the fax line, and the incident itself, I
3 believe occurred on the 9th of August so ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Just for us -- just for you to know that we
5 have difficulties in reading what appears after Wednesday and of course
6 we may have other -- the problem is that as far as the fax is concerned,
7 that not the whole of the --
8 MR. MISETIC: The next page has the year.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
10 MR. MISETIC: If we could go to page 2 please.
11 Q. Now you're writing this memo to Filip Arnold, who is the
12 UNCRO/UNPROFOR spokesman in Zagreb
13 A. Chief spokesperson in the nation at the time of Operation Storm,
15 Q. And when you're righting this, you're aware that part of the
16 purpose of writing this to Mr. Arnold as the spokesman is so that he can,
17 if necessary, put this information out into the international community.
19 A. No. That was not the precise purpose. Otherwise, I would have
20 suggested a press line for that particular thing, which was the normal
21 practice if I was suggesting an incident deserved comment by the chief
22 spokesperson at the press briefing. I would usually suggest a press line
23 and they would take it or not. This was just to -- essentially to inform
24 of what had happened on that particular day.
25 There was a separate report sent, by the way, from the civil
1 affairs office to, I think the SRSG.
2 Q. If we could look at paragraph 8.
3 "On first time visits to Knin yesterday, local Serb interpreters
4 who accompanied UN personnel reported being intimidated. The worst
5 example was that of a long-time and distinguished civil affairs
7 Now, you're writing to Mr. Arnold approximately eight months
8 after you discovered that Mr. Sare is passing information, whether under
9 pressure or not, and you write to Mr. Arnold and describe him as a
10 long-time and distinguished civil affairs interpreter?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Do you think that was a full and complete description to
13 Mr. Arnold of what the situation really was?
14 A. Now for some background information, if I may.
15 Q. Well, let me take the Trial Chamber --
16 A. You did ask me a question --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, I think the witness may --
18 MR. MISETIC: That's fine.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- answer the question if he thinks that some
20 background information would clarify the matter.
21 Mr. Roberts, could you try to be brief as to the background and
22 focus on the foreground.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. In reference to the word "distinguished civil
24 affairs interpreter," and long-time, he had been there since, I think,
25 the early part of the mission, 1992/1993 in various periods. I know he
1 had been assaulted by elements of the so-called RSK paramilitary on one
2 occasion with me and other UN personnel. We were hijacked at gunpoint by
3 unknown but believed to be with RSK paramilitary vehicle stolen and
4 assaulted and had also been in areas near the front line in very
5 difficult and dangerous situations before the cease-fire agreement.
6 So that's in there for background reference. And we can now
7 continue. That's the background. The Court can take it for its own
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And now the question, because you gave a bit
10 of the background -- the question was whether you thought that this was a
11 full and complete description to Mr. Arnold of what the situation really
12 was. You have emphasised, apparently, the difficulties the interpreter
13 had undergone, but that was not the gist of the question by Mr. Misetic
14 and you have made note of that.
15 THE WITNESS: Right, I understand.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The question simply is wouldn't it not have been
17 appropriate to describe him in other terms as well.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand, I accept that.
19 At the time I thought it was not inappropriate from the situation
20 to use those words, and in reference to the actual confession if that had
21 been passed on to the then chief spokesperson prior to Mr. Arnold.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MISETIC: Mr. --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question is you could have limited
25 yourself also to an interpreter, which would have not be -- which would
1 not have been very complete information but, at the same time, it would
2 not have -- unbalanced information you just referred to his work, his
4 THE WITNESS: I understand, yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
6 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. I have actually more concerns than simply in addition to how you
8 described them.
9 MR. MISETIC: And if we can turn the page, please.
10 Q. It goes what you're actually describing happened.
11 If we could go to paragraph 13.
12 Now, you have already described in prior paragraphs the tense
13 situation. You say: "One of the soldiers," meaning HV "then went back
14 into the building. A short time later he emerged with a paper. This was
15 pushed in PIO's face and told, in so many words, this has RSK army stamp.
16 This man's name, he is war crime, you give now."
17 If we go to the next page, which is the second portion of
18 paragraph 16.
19 It would appear that Mr. Sare had in fact taken something out of
20 the apartment.
21 MR. MISETIC: If we could scroll up the English page, please.
22 Q. Now, in the middle there of that top paragraph: "In addition,
23 photographs were removed from his possessions, one with his brother years
24 ago, showing two young men in plain green uniform dress."
25 Now, Mr. Roberts, I put it to you that Predrag Sare went back to
1 his apartment to get documents out of his apartment before the HV
2 arrived. Isn't that what really happened?
3 A. Well, we went back to inspect the accommodation of several staff
4 and we were with the interpreter, myself and another UN international
5 employee, and he was in the apartment very briefly and we were with him,
6 and it was basically, as far as we could see, an inspection of what was
7 already a looted apartment with possessions and objects strewn around,
8 and I can't be clear that in the time we had before Croatian soldiers
9 came in and intervened and seemed to know who he was, that this assault
10 situation began.
11 I'm pretty sure we did not leave him alone to collect or get
12 things from any drawers. We were all there in the apartment together.
13 Q. Well, I turn your attention then to paragraph 9 of your own
14 report on the screen, which is page 2 of this document.
15 Paragraph 9: "As the PIO and civil affairs officer left the
16 apartment block with the interpreter still inside, they were challenged
17 in a very threatening manner on why they were there."
18 So apparently, sir, there was a time when you left the apartment
19 and left Predrag in the apartment by himself. Isn't that correct?
20 A. We had gone down the stairs and he was still inside the apartment
21 block but not far behind us. I don't think we had left him at all in the
22 apartment on his own. It was then that we were challenged by the
23 Croatian soldiers as they came in, but, at that time, I don't think the
24 interpreter was still left alone sorting things in the apartment. We had
25 come down together but we were ahead of him.
1 Q. Well, if you left the apartment block, you left him inside --
2 A. Well, there is an interpretation here, I think, in terms of
3 inside the apartment itself and inside the apartment block, and I have
4 said as we came out of the apartment block I recall we had gone down
6 So, yes, for a moment or two he was behind us and still in the
7 actual apartment itself as we had gone down maybe two flights of stairs.
8 Q. Mr. Roberts, you know that Predrag Sare went into that apartment
9 looking to retrieve documents before the HV arrived. Isn't that correct?
10 A. No, I do not know that, and the observation of myself and the
11 other international interpreter was that it was found to be in a complete
12 disarray and a mess. I don't recall that he had time or sufficient
13 opportunity to really go through things or conceal that he was obtaining
14 information or documents from us. We were still inside the actual
15 apartment itself.
16 Q. Now, we've already noted that you said a photograph was removed
17 from his possession, a photograph was one with his brother years ago
18 showing two young men in plain green uniform dress?
19 Who is Predrag Sare's brother?
20 A. Well, I don't -- I didn't meet his brother. I know his brother
21 was something in terms of a -- a special unit. That's about all I know
22 and I know that as far as family went, from what I was told and
23 understood, they were not close but that's for the -- for consideration.
24 But I know that he had photographs of all his family.
25 Q. You know they were twins. Correct?
1 A. I believe that they were, but I don't think that it was something
2 that was known to me at that time.
3 Q. You also are very well aware, Mr. Roberts, that Predrag Sare's
4 twin brother Nenad was one of Milosevic's assassins. Isn't that correct?
5 A. One of Milosevic's.
6 Q. Let's take a look at that. I'm surprised that --
7 A. You're saying Mr. Milosevic -- I think you mean --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please clarify what you mean by Milosevic
10 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps also the relevancy of this issue.
11 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, it's relevant. There is an issue of
12 bias that the witness has put forward that this individual was doing
13 things unwillingly because of threats by RSK personnel and I'm going to
14 go into this person's connection with certain high levels in addition to
15 his connection as an interpreter for other high-level Serbian
16 officials --
17 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
18 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
19 Q. Sir, let me show you 1D41-0345.
20 This is an Agence France-Presse article of September 22nd, 2004,
21 describing the trial of Milorad Ulemovic [phoen] Legija in Belgrade
22 the assassination of Serbian ex-president Ivan Stambolic. You will note
23 in paragraph 2 Judge Dragoljub Albijanic said protected witness Nenad
24 Sare will testify in camera in the proceedings resumed in a high-security
25 court for organised crime.
1 "A former secret police agent, Sare has reportedly confessed to
2 participating in the operation --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, of course, everything comes as entirely
4 new to us. Apparently from this newspaper article it appears that
5 testimony has been given in camera. Now it is known to many judges in
6 this Tribunal that sometimes secrets are published in newspapers despite
7 orders not to publish matters. I'm not aware of whether what follows in
8 this is in violation of any order.
9 MR. MISETIC: I believe, Your Honour, and as an officer of the
10 Court I can tell that you I have researched the issue and Serbian
11 authority have very much emphasised Nenad Sare because he is the person
12 who actually led them to the body of Ivan Stambolic, and so it's not a --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to make sure that not only in
14 this courtroom where confidentiality is treated as an important matter,
15 that in this same courtroom we would violate confidentiality rules. I
16 have not researched the background. I then rely upon you as an officer
17 of the court not to make any mistakes.
18 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
21 Q. "Sare has reportedly confessed to participating in the operation
22 to kidnap and murder Stambolic, the president of the Balkan republic from
23 1986 to 19887.
24 "He led police to a mountain north of Belgrade where Stambolic's
25 remains were found last year, almost four years after the former
1 president disappeared from a park in the Serbian capital."
2 Let me show you several exhibits again and then we can ask some
4 Your Honour, I tender this document into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
6 MR. WAESPI: I doubt the relevancy but I have no objections.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D707, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D707 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I could now call up 1D41-0060.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, of course, this whole matter, I do
12 understand that you're challenging the reliability and credibility of
13 this witness. That may not come as a surprise to Mr. Roberts either. Of
14 course, to highlight the whole background is -- could be relevant. At
15 the same time, of course, the first issue or the last issue would be to
16 what extent the witness was aware of these kind of things, and if just to
17 highlight all of this and then to, at the end, find out that the witness
18 was not aware, that of course doesn't make much sense because then it
19 might still be relevant but not in relation to this witness, who may have
20 been, I'm not saying he was, but may have been mislead about matters.
21 MR. MISETIC: But it's not only bias and credibility of this
22 witness. Your Honour, I will to address that concern move from this
23 document right to the next document to show you what the other issue is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. MISETIC: Then I will go very quickly through this -- not
1 even through this. If you can take a look at it quickly, Mr. Roberts,
2 but essentially at the bottom of this page, talks about Ulemek passing an
3 order to a criminal group consisting of state officials with the JSO,
4 identifies the people and the next page says accomplice Nenad Sare.
5 Rather than take more time on it then, Your Honour, I will tender
6 that into evidence and proceed to the next document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
8 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit D708, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: D708 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I may have 1D41-0376, please.
14 Q. This is HRAT compilation of statements taken from witnesses in
15 the camp.
16 Now, Mr. Roberts, you testified earlier this week that part of
17 your own reports were based on UN CIVPOL reports of interviews taken with
18 some of the people in the camp. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. If I would ask you to -- if I could just ask the registrar
21 to flip through every page of these statements perhaps we could not
22 publish it so that the witness's names don't appear. But --
23 JUDGE ORIE: The document, the following page is not to be shown
24 to the public.
25 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: And the documents later to be tendered under seal as
2 a whole, although the first page doesn't --
3 MR. MISETIC: Correct.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- harm.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. MISETIC: If we could flip through every page and note who
7 the interpreter is for these witness statements.
8 I don't know how far along we are.
9 Q. But I think, Mr. Roberts, you understand the point. Correct?
10 A. Yes, I understand the point, yes.
11 MR. MISETIC: I tender the document into evidence, Your Honours,
12 for the purpose of showing Mr. Sare's involvement in the drafting of the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps also to -- of course we could read
15 that but I thought that except for three --
16 MR. MISETIC: I'm going to ask him some questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: D709, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D709 is admitted into evidence.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. MISETIC: First again as a background question so I don't
24 have to go through it, when Mr. Sare was confessing his passing
25 information, did he also acknowledge to you that he been General Ratko
1 Mladic's interpreter in the early part of the war?
2 A. I think that was not only known to me but to other senior members
3 of the UN before I even came to Sector South. I recall being told that
4 not by the person concerned but I think by people from Sector South --
5 Sector South commander's office when I arrived there, that he had -- he
6 worked there and I think that is on his employment application or CV,
7 submitted by him to the UN in terms of him being an interpreter at the
8 headquarters of the government building in the -- in the Krajina.
9 Q. Did Mr. EJ Flynn, Ms. Grace Kang, some of these other people that
10 worked for HRAT, they came into the theatre in August, and my question to
11 you is did you advise them that the interpreter that they were working
12 with had, A, told you that he had previously been passing information to
13 the Serb authorities; and B, was the former translator for General
15 A. I had advised them -- I'm not sure Grace, but I advised EJ in
16 terms of the background to the whole thing in terms of confession, the UN
17 decision, which was not mine, but personnel that this was known and he
18 was continued in employment of the UN after the time he made that
19 statement to the UN officials.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The question was twofold.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did brief them.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you paid attention only to could I say the
23 confession and not to the previous position as Mr. Mladic's interpreter.
24 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that I explained the whole thing of
25 the most important thing for me was to brief in terms of the UN --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What is important you informed them about the
2 first issue and not about the second.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
6 Q. Let me take you to two additional points before the break.
7 Your 1997 statement, P675, paragraph 42. This is now discussing
8 the alleged threat by General Gotovina against you. And it says: "UN
9 officials that he wanted General Forand to know that, inter alia, we
10 consider Alun Roberts as a spy and that regardless of what he is doing,
11 if he is seen on the streets, he could be eliminated, his further safety
12 cannot be guaranteed ... General Forand told me later that in his mind,
13 he could not be sure but it seemed a clear threat."
14 And if we could pull up, please, 1D41-0367.
15 This is a -- this is a handwritten diary provided to the Office
16 of the Prosecutor by an ECMM official named Soren Liborius. Do you
17 recall Mr. Liborius?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. MISETIC: We received this over the weekend, Your Honour, so
21 we're not able, I don't believe to do a B/C/S translation. But I will
22 read it out to you.
23 Q. It is Mr. Laborious's entry from 6 September which, is the day
24 after the meeting between General Forand and General Gotovina, and he
25 says: "Meet General Gotovina, sector commander, 5 September 1995.
1 General Got," which I assume is Gotovina, "PIO accused of spying,
2 disinformation and sufficient for a case in court. PIO, Gotovina very
3 emotional during meeting."
4 My question to you is, "the PIO:" At the bottom to me would
5 indicate that this is a conversation or information that is being passed
6 to Mr. Liborius from you, and in your own 1997 statement you make
7 reference to the fact that General Forand said he could not be sure. My
8 question to you is do you recall having a conversation with Soren
9 Liborius on the 6th, where what you said was that Gotovina had accused
10 you of spying and disinformation and that there was sufficient evidence
11 for a case in court against you?
12 A. Well, I do not recognise this at all as my note, at all.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is not said that this was your note, but
14 that since PIO appears on the fourth line as perhaps the source of what
15 Mr. Liborius did write down.
16 THE WITNESS: No, absolutely not. I did not recall at all having
17 a meeting with ECMM, Mr. Liborius on the 6th of September, no.
18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender the document into evidence
19 and I think it is a good time for a break as I will be shifting subjects.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: No objections and Mr. Liborius will come to testify.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number D710.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D710 is admitted into evidence.
25 Mr. Misetic, could you give us an impression on how long you're
1 two hours are --
2 MR. MISETIC: Two hours and 55 minutes left, but I will try to
3 finish by -- sorry, Your Honour.
4 I will try to finish by the second break.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Waespi, would that be sufficient for
7 MR. WAESPI: So far I need about ten minutes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: About ten minutes.
9 Then we will have a break, and we'll resume at five minutes to
11 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I again have to apologise on behalf of the Chamber
14 for the late start.
15 Mr. Misetic, you may continue.
16 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Roberts, let's turn our attention to the 4th of August, 1995
18 And you have given some testimony here about what you observed on the
19 morning of the 4th.
20 Now, is it fair to say that your observations consist of what you
21 saw on the balcony of your apartment in the morning of the 4th as well as
22 what you saw on the balcony of UN headquarters when you arrived in
23 Sector South headquarters?
24 A. That's a fair assessment, yes.
25 Q. Now I note in your 7 February 2008
1 8 you say, I was on the balcony for about ten minutes. Is that accurate?
2 Sorry. Just to be accurate, when I say balcony, I meant the balcony of
3 your apartment.
4 A. Yes. Ten minutes at one particular time, not just for only one
5 occasion only for ten minutes.
6 Q. How much time in total did you spend on the balcony of your
7 apartment on the morning of the 4th?
8 A. To describe it, maybe three or four occasions very briefly, and
9 one occasion, maybe four or five minutes, and one occasion, ten minutes.
10 Q. Thank you. You state in 1998, page 4, that from your
11 observations you concluded that about 200 civilian locations were hit
12 during the shelling which included roofs that were damaged. Is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You say in 2007 at page 5 at 28 February 2007, in later weeks
16 this was confirmed by my regular journeys into town where I could see
17 damage to the rooftops of what were civilian buildings in several
18 different parts of the town. None of these buildings were near RSK
19 government, military, or police locations. Is that correct?
20 A. Ask am I supposed to be seeing on the screen here the statement
21 or not, because I'm not seeing anything.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It could be shown to you or a hard copy could be
23 given to the witness if there's one available. But perhaps as we
24 could -- as soon as Mr. Misetic gives the P number, then the registrar
25 usually shows it on the screen.
1 MR. MISETIC: P677. Page 5, please.
2 Q. At the top of the page. Do you see that sentence: "In later
3 weeks this was confirmed."
4 A. I'm not getting the top paragraph, I think.
5 Q. It is right in the middle of that top, continued paragraph from
6 the previous page right in the middle there's a sentence that starts:
7 "In later weeks this was confirmed by my regular journeys ..."
8 A. Yes, I see it.
9 Q. So is that accurate?
10 A. In later weeks, driving around town, yeah, in -- yes.
11 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, could we call up Exhibit D276,
12 please. Oh, yes, I'm sorry.
13 Q. This is a video, a panoramic. You will see a video from 5
14 August 1995. And I'd ask you to take a look at the video and point out
15 where the roof damage was the greatest in your trips out of Knin in the
16 weeks after Operation Storm.
17 [Videotape played]
18 THE WITNESS: Well, we haven't got the whole of Knin there by any
19 means. But buildings in the centre of town, I have provided a sketch map
20 of buildings I saw hit. Apartment blocks to the centre, I mean, I can't
21 with this photograph here pick out a broad dimension of Knin. It would
22 have to be more detailed than that in terms of streets and so on. If
23 that's possible, I don't know, but can I point out on here what I saw
24 that are not, to my mind, military buildings.
25 MR. MISETIC:
1 Q. Well --
2 A. Can --
3 Q. Did you see any of the buildings in the areas that are depicted
4 in this video?
5 A. Yes. Behind the -- the gentleman, there are houses on a dirt
6 road that were hit. They were buildings on the roads that were going
7 down from the top of the fortress that were civilian that I saw hit.
8 Q. So --
9 A. Sorry.
10 Q. I'm pausing because of the interpreters.
11 Are you saying that you saw them in the video or are you saying
12 you saw them even though they're not in the video?
13 A. I thought the question was in your trips around town later weeks,
14 you suggest or point out from this video the apartment buildings or the
15 areas mainly that you saw hit.
16 Q. Yes, that's fine. Then so, first, let me ask you, did you see
17 any of those buildings in this video?
18 A. Rough general areas, yes, can I say that --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. But it has to go more slowly I think in terms of that, and this
21 is with all fairness a portion of the town and quite a short video-clip,
22 but I -- run it again, perhaps, I don't know.
23 Q. What we'll do is we'll run the video and we'll pause it in the
24 various sections of town as they come on the screen, and then you can
25 tell us roughly where you believe there was roof damage.
1 [Videotape played]
2 A. Well, down from the [indiscernible] there is a dirt road running
3 down here and off camera. Houses were hit --
4 MR. MISETIC: Can I ask the usher -- can he point on the video?
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. But I think the cursor could be --
7 MR. MISETIC: Yes, that's what I meant.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- moved. That means no marking but -- and then of
9 course for the record we have to describe it.
10 MR. MISETIC: Okay.
11 Q. Go ahead and --
12 JUDGE ORIE: So what we see now is the dirt road that's described
13 by the witness below the wall not visible on this video image. Is that
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, you would have to move the -- this
16 frame to the left so that the right-hand edge is further to show more,
17 maybe, but you can't see down on that dirt road and on those houses which
18 is just one section.
19 MR. MISETIC: For the record, this is the still at 04 seconds on
20 the video.
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE WITNESS: Well, it is it behind -- well, along this street
23 here this is behind the RSK buildings, but you have do go again at a
24 different angle, but I pointed out one map, I think it is it to the --
25 beyond this building here, one --
1 JUDGE ORIE: This building here, could you please tell us what
2 this building here is?
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. To the left I think you go further left down
4 that street.
5 MR. MISETIC: Play the video.
6 [Videotape played]
7 MR. MISETIC:
8 Q. Do you see the building now?
9 A. I have been more precise on an aerial shot that was shown
10 earlier, but there is a building in this row was hit by the side shelling
11 but I can't pick it out of your -- on this, whether it is the actual real
12 street. We did this with the investigation of a quite wider shot of the
13 centre part of town and picked out that building.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you say "this row of buildings," you're
15 referring to what apparently is a street going from the left side at
16 approximately 50 per cent of the eighth of the picture to the right side
17 approximately 30 per cent of the eighth of the picture. Is that correct?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is but I don't think it is possible to pull
19 back so that you can get --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. This is video images which are not -- cannot be
21 manipulated at this moment. We can follow it, we can look at it, but
22 that's all.
23 THE WITNESS: To my mind if we're pointing, this building here
24 appears to be the same one that I've marked on the specific map exhibit
25 given to the -- to the statement, but I'm not exactly sure this is the
1 precise one because I need to see the whole length of this area. But
2 it's of this area here.
3 MR. MISETIC:
4 Q. Is that the building that you're pointing to?
5 A. No. I'm pointing along here. I'm saying in all honesty, looking
6 at the video-clip, I apologise, but I don't think it is possible to pick
7 out precisely that this was the building. I have been quite I think
8 specific on in the earlier exhibit.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is -- I'm afraid that one has to
10 review -- no, the problem is that the cursor is not part of the evidence;
11 it's just the description.
12 The witness started pointing at a building, which is in the left
13 lower corner of what seems to be a sports complex but then opposite side
14 of the road with a white element in the roof structure, then moved a
15 little bit to the right bottom direction where a structure can be seen in
16 the midst of some green, and then moved a little bit further up higher to
17 the right, where do I say, series of roofs which are not very good
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. MISETIC: Yes. And for the record this is at the 15-second
21 still on this video-clip.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Mr. Misetic. Please proceed.
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE WITNESS: I would have to say this is possible but this is
25 showing a fragment of Knin in the centre from the very high-up elevation
1 of the castle and --
2 Well, you can't see it again, I'm afraid, but if you go behind
3 these buildings where I'm pointing with my finger, if the cursor can come
4 up, and again, I have seen other, forgive me, better aerial views of
5 Knin, and I'm not wanting, Your Honour, in any way to go and put my
6 finger on an area which puts like three rooftops in question when we're
7 trying to be quite careful in saying, Well, this was three rooftops I saw
8 together, that is not exact, I don't think.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The witness now with the cursor pointed at the
10 whitish --
11 THE WITNESS: It is pointed at a roof but I'm looking at the
12 actual gap between the roof and a street area which we can't see on
13 this --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Roberts, if you have difficulties in identifying
15 the roofs, then please tell us, if these were -- is one of the areas
16 where the roofs were damaged.
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I would have to look left to get a
18 better bearing, if that is the street concerned that I'm interested in.
19 I'm sorry.
20 MR. MISETIC: Let me play it and see if it goes farther left.
21 This is, by the way, for the record this conversation took place at the
22 19-second mark of this video.
23 Does that assist you, Mr. Roberts? We're now at the 20-second
24 mark on the video.
25 A. Yeah, a little bit. Judging by the edge of the fortress, it's
1 buildings, if I recall, through this gap here that, again, are blocked by
2 this building here further down.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's it.
4 A. I have to say, for the record, I'm sorry, Your Honour, but we're
5 talking about a very important issue, obviously. We're looking down from
6 a very steep elevation, and only when you're travelling up or going from
7 street to street are you going to be able to sort of spot on a proper way
8 tops of buildings or damage to the side that can you see that I don't, in
9 all honesty, believe that you can depict from this kind of video, and
10 that's not trying to avert -- and we're in the centre of Knin as well,
11 which was the main focus, I know, of a lot of media and a lot of
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic, we --
14 MR. MISETIC:
15 Q. Mr. Roberts, is it fair to say that based on this video you can't
16 by looking at this video identify any specific buildings that were hit by
17 shelling -- roofs, I should say that you were hit by shelling?
18 A. I can give general areas, but I'm not a hundred percent sure that
19 they really would be in those areas or the buildings concerned.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But that is now -- I mean the purpose of this
21 exercise is whether the pictures support your statement about what areas
22 you found damage to roofs, and now to say, I could indicate the areas on
23 the basis of these pictures, not by pointing at roof damage but just as
24 the areas doesn't add anything to the testimony or to the statement given
25 by the witness. So, I think that's a --
1 MR. MISETIC: That's fine. We'll move on, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
3 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
4 Q. Now, in your statements you said that your conclusions on the
5 shelling were based also on information that you received from other UN
6 sources. And at your 1998 statement, which is P676 at page 5 you say, at
7 the very top of the page, fifth line down: "About an hour later, when I
8 called back to the UNMO office, two of the duty officers said that from
9 their assessment of the bombardment that hit Knin they assessed that
10 between around 0500 hours and about 0800 hours, around 1100 shells had
11 targeted Knin."
12 Do you recall the names of the two UNMO officers who gave you
13 this information?
14 A. I don't, no, recall those names.
15 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, can I call up exhibit P101, please.
16 Q. This is an UNMO report filed by UNMO HQ Sector South on 4
17 August at 1205. It says in the very first paragraph: "HV shelling on
18 Knin started at 0500 Bravo, August, and continued up to 1040 Bravo,
19 August 1995. Total around 350 to 400 artillery MBRL rocket fire were
20 heard by the UNMOs in Knin."
21 Did you receive this report as part of your duties on the day of
22 4 August 1995
24 A. I have seen this document, and my response on seeing this was to
25 go back to ask what it meant on the third line down there: "Total around
1 350 to 400 RT/MRBL/rocket fire were heard by the UNMOs in Knin," and I
2 wanted to know that in terms of, okay, we've had a conversation a large
3 number of assessment had been told me, are we talking about hearing or
4 seeing or generalist estimation, but this was sent as the position of
5 hearing what was the position of UNMOs in Knin.
6 Q. So was it based on the fact that you received on a regular basis
7 UNMO reports, was it standard for UNMO to report something like having
8 heard shell fire but leave out of an UNMO report the fact that they had
9 seen -- seen several hundred more artillery impacts in town? Would that
10 have been common practice by UNMOs?
11 A. I would go -- no, no it's not. I would go always by what is
12 written on paper, even if someone told me, Alun, to the best of my
13 ability, it's that number.
14 In the early hours as you said I was in touch with international
15 press once I got into HQ Sector South which was not for some time after
16 the bombardment began. I did not pass on to press anything in terms of
17 numbers, because everything was very, as I said in my statement, very
18 fluid and I don't think I'm on record myself of going and giving a number
19 of X shells, buildings, everything on the 4th of August. Others, I think
20 may have done, but not from myself.
21 Q. Is it possible, sir, that the number you gave in the witness
22 statement of 1100 shells came from -- that number came to you from Andrew
23 Leslie and not UNMO?
24 A. No, it wasn't from Mr. Leslie. I definitely went down to the
25 UNMO office downstairs from the second floor, which was inside and
1 right -- and I was frequently in there because they had very good maps of
2 the entire sector and enlarged maps of cities along the whole of the
3 Sector South and the hinterland of Croatia. So that's the point I wanted
4 to go and see, and also because I felt, Okay, UNMOs are able to give a
5 good assessment in terms of detonations, artillery, and that's where I
7 Q. Sir, taking you to your February 7, 2008 statement.
8 MR. MISETIC: Again, if we could pull that up, which is P678,
9 please, at page 10.
10 Q. There you say in the middle of paragraph 33 that an as PIO you
11 "especially regarded UNMO reports in Sector South as being particularly
12 accurate for the reason that they were compiled by experts in military
14 Is that accurate, sir?
15 A. Yes, that is my general feeling of UNMOs in not only that
16 situation but, in general, of what expertise was.
17 Q. Now, I believe, and I'm looking for the reference here, but you
18 said in your witness statement of 28 February 2007 that, A report had
19 been prepared by senior UNMO, which would have been passed to UNPROFOR HQ
20 on the damage caused by shell fire in Knin.
21 Do you recall any such report?
22 A. I can recall that that's -- a report -- sorry. A report was made
23 by UNMOs and passed to headquarters on an assessment of, I think, shell
24 damage, and there were other reports on general assessment of buildings
25 as well in Knin and other places, also by -- headquarters. There were
1 several UNMO reports prepared and sent to headquarters assessing damage,
2 some by the various teams collectively and one, I think, particularly
3 looked at Knin in three or four different parts of Knin, looking at
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. MISETIC: Can I have the registrar please put up Exhibit P64,
8 Q. Sir, this is an UNMO report on the shelling prepared on 18
9 August 1995 by UNMO H -- SMO, Sector South. SMO, you'll recall was
10 Steiner Hjertnes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you recall having seen this report as part of your
13 responsibilities as the PIO?
14 A. Yes, I saw this report but this, I recall is not the only UNMO
15 report I saw.
16 Q. Well, you will note then you saw this report.
17 A. Yes, did.
18 Q. This report at paragraph 2, concludes: "In general shelling was
19 concentrated against military objectives. The damages caused by shelling
20 to civilian establishments is concentrated to the close vicinity of
21 military objectives. Only few, three to five impacts is observed in
22 other urban areas."
23 A. I see that.
24 Q. When you saw this report did that -- and it was a report by
25 people whom you now in court confirm to be particularly accurate for the
1 reason that these reports were compiled by experts in military ordnance.
2 When you received that report, did that impact the conclusion which
3 you've given to this Trial Chamber in the witness statements that the
4 shelling was indiscriminate, it was hitting civilian areas, and that
5 civilian buildings had been hit?
6 A. Right. Okay. Can I take you through this, two, three,
8 My impression when I got this and I think we're talking about the
9 18th of August?
10 Q. Correct.
11 A. Right. Provisional assessment damage caused by HV ops 4 to 6
12 August 1995 at Knin. Provisional assessment by Podgonja [phoen] team, a
13 rundown, is based on a rundown of 70 per cent of Knin town and gives only
14 a brief -- a brief overview of the situation. Correct?
15 In general, shelling was -- right. Right.
16 I recall when I had this of being quite surprised. It is not my
17 place as the press officer to go and try and challenge or change a
18 report. But between the 6th of August and the date of this report that I
19 saw on that day, there had been several discussions between sector
20 commander's office and UNMOs in regard to damage, and I felt those
21 discussions were characterized in other reports that had gone to
22 headquarters mission of a larger extent of damage. And I think there
23 were -- there are reports that exist prior to this and after that give a
24 different picture. I don't think this is the only and final one, but I
25 have seen this report, I do see what it says, and the reason -- the
1 reason I'm saying is that I know there were statements made, including by
2 the sector commander, to the press from the press office phone giving his
3 perspective of information in based upon UNMOs and collaboration with his
5 Q. Is it fair to say you don't have any particular military
6 expertise to analyse shelling damage?
7 A. No, I don't have any professional expertise to assess, and what
8 you have said, I would agree with and I would add a "but." The "but" is
9 well into the end of August, I, with one other UNMO, went out into Knin.
10 I did not stay with him but he was going to make an assessment of
11 detailed and minor damage to get an impression towards that part of late
13 As far as I know, that was done. I don't know if that was passed
14 as a general UNMO survey but that was looking at buildings around the
15 town and I, again, driving around, was picking out not vast devastation
16 of rooftops but clear signs that rooftops were hit and that I felt was in
17 later report of UNMOs.
18 Q. What was the name of that UNMO?
19 A. I can't recall now.
20 Q. You referenced --
21 A. I think it was a Norwegian or a Dutch UNMO that went out. There
22 was an issue which we had recurring of a lack of photographic equipment
23 at the time of all this happening. Sorry. I'm drawing attention here to
24 your second paragraph --
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. -- and the surprise was only few, (3 to five impacts) is observed
2 in other urban areas.
3 Q. Let me ask you a question on the basis of your last answer.
4 We've seen extensive pictures from you. You testified that you
5 were the only one that had a United Nations camera. Why didn't you take
6 pictures of 200 houses with shell damage?
7 A. It's a good question. Part of the time we were out in the
8 streets and there was still signs of Croatian soldiers. That was one
9 reason why not. Later, it was possible, and I did not do it. The other
10 thing we had a problem with, it is not important, but we did not have
11 vast amounts of film roll or access to film roll in our office or from
12 mission headquarters. This was a place you could not go out to, as
13 background, into Knin and buy 12 rounds of video film or still film for
14 the camera. It was limited and we were using extensively this, as things
15 went on, for photographs not just by me but by colleagues of the Human
16 Rights Action Team in the field.
17 Q. Mr. Roberts, I am quite sure that you are aware that the issue of
18 the shelling of Knin was of high international awareness as early as the
19 4th of August, 1995, that the allegation was in the international
20 community and not something that was simply an allegation in Sector South
21 headquarters, and I put it to you, given the amount of attention in the
22 international press to the alleged indiscriminate shelling of Knin, are
23 you telling us that you actually found evidence of this, saw it with your
24 own eyes but decided you weren't going to take pictures because you
25 didn't want to waste film? Is that your testimony?
1 MR. WAESPI: I thought --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
3 MR. WAESPI: We have seen photographs that were taken by
4 Mr. Roberts that show shelling damages. There are at least two we have
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, I think that -- I would leave it to
7 counsel to -- to speak without asking prior permission. The words by
8 both the accused are not translated, but I -- if there's any reason for
9 an accused to speak aloud, then, of course, through counsel, you may ask
10 permission to do so.
11 Then going back, Mr. Waespi, I'm reading, again ...
12 MR. WAESPI: It is P683.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. But it is not part of the question. You
14 can object against the question, but Mr. Misetic sought confirmation of
15 how he understood the testimony and that is not directly related to
16 whatever we've seen at that moment. He is asking without -- without
17 including in his question that in no way ever a roof has been hit by a
18 shell. That was not the issue.
19 MR. WAESPI: Well, I thought implicit in his question was the
20 fact that he didn't take any pictures because he didn't want to take --
21 to waste film but we do have photographs.
22 MR. MISETIC: May I respond, Your Honour. We're --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. MISETIC: -- referring to the trips he said he took in the
25 weeks after Operation Storm which is August 1995 which is his testimony
1 that he saw 200 houses hit. The fact that he -- we've had this
2 discussion already about when these other --
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear. Please, Mr. Misetic, perhaps put the
4 question again to the witness perhaps in a briefer way.
5 MR. MISETIC: Yes.
6 Q. Mr. Roberts, you're taking trips in August, it is an obviously
7 very important issue in the international community, you say you saw
8 evidence of indiscriminate shelling --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- and your testimony is you have the one UN camera but didn't
11 want to waste film?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Is that accurate?
14 A. Yeah. Well, I did take photographs, Your Honour. And I sent
15 those photographs to our office in Zagreb headquarters, some of them. I
16 was informed that UNMOs would make a detailed survey of the houses and
17 that also a team from mission headquarters would come and make a further
18 detailed assessment of buildings, because it was a very controversial
19 issue and my feeling was there was a feeling from mission headquarters of
20 maybe objectivity or assessment of what is really damage, collateral
21 damage, severe damage, as is analysed here.
22 If I'm not mistaken, and correct me if I'm wrong, does this
23 document and this report continue with anything more than this? Is it
24 going on to many pages? I'm sorry.
25 Q. No.
1 A. All right.
2 Q. There is one page --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, we're not at this moment discussing
4 this, Mr. Roberts. The question was put to you mainly seeking
5 confirmation why you did not photograph. You said you made some
6 pictures. Are those among the pictures we've seen? Are they in any of
7 the series? And we're talking about damage in the city of Knin
8 the taking over 4th of August, 5th of August.
9 THE WITNESS: I had taken a number of photographs only two of
10 which had been passed to the investigation, and I sent, and it wasn't
11 many, maybe a roll of film, up to our mission headquarters in Zagreb
12 with other photographs on, of the shelling of buildings and general decay
13 in Banja Luka towards about the third week of December.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So if I understand your answer correctly, you said I
15 made some photographs, although we have not seen them, so we don't know
16 what they're focussing on, and apart from that it was not my primary task
17 and I understood that reporting would be done by others and most likely
18 by other means.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: Thank you.
23 Q. You've stated that you've seen the UNMO report, you saw it back
24 then, yet you've given a conclusion that the shelling was indiscriminate
25 and that 200 civilian buildings were hit.
1 What specific evidence did you hear of or do you have that
2 contradicts the conclusions in the UNMO report on your screen?
3 A. I'd have to subscribe and I haven't got them with me the reports
4 I read at the time and over the two or three weeks from UNMOs from the
5 sector commander's office and from offices of civil affairs who had lived
6 in Knin during the time of the shelling, and that information was
7 discussed at the time and conclusions were drawn and that information was
8 sent to headquarters Zagreb
9 I felt that was a general overall impression of a good many people from
10 headquarters Sector South from different UN departments, especially, if I
11 could add, people who were in Knin, international civilians and others
12 on, the morning of the 4th of August when the bombardment started and
13 were picked up over two or three hours following by an APC or more than
14 APC in the same way as I was picked up from my accommodation.
15 So, again, I'm very, very surprised then and now at this report,
16 which, I expressed at the time, well, forgive me, it's three paragraphs.
17 Do we have something more, please, than this, at this stage, 18th of
18 August, and there was quite a defensive response by this.
19 MR. MISETIC: Let's go to Exhibit P228, please.
20 Q. This is an UN CIVPOL assessment performed on 18 August by
21 officers, Thor Hansen, Steinar Hagvag, Steinar Hagvag, and they were
22 surveying Knin to determine the damage caused by shelling, arson and
23 wilful damage.
24 If we could scroll down a little bit, please?
25 We covered the whole township and observed several impacts of
1 shells, rockets around the Tvik factory, milicija headquarters, general
2 direction of the northern barracks and between the government house, Knin
3 radio TV building and hillside below Knin castle. We counted roughly 20
4 houses buildings hit by shells and about another 20 presumable damaged by
6 And it goes on to talk about on the main street most noticeable
7 are totally gutted by fire. On the positive side we found the area south
8 of Knin hospital unharmed. Even the satellite antenna and the ECMM
9 accommodation looked 100 per cent intact. The best part of the damage is
10 obviously not caused by direct acts of war, exchange of fire but wilful
11 damage inflicted by liberation forces.
12 Now this is UN CIVPOL's assessment on the same day, 18th of
13 August. Did you receive a copy of this report?
14 A. Yes, I have seen this report.
15 Q. Would you agree with me that this report also does not suggest
16 that -- this report also does not suggest that there was indiscriminate
17 shelling of civilian targets on the 4th of August?
18 A. This document does not say that or suggest that, no. And I had a
19 discussion with the Steinar about the time of this document, after seeing
20 it and reading it, as I understand, and the Court will know better, but I
21 understand there are other documents also on this issue conducted later
22 and even before this document. I do not think for the Court record that
23 these two documents seen from UNMOs and CIVPOL are the only reports made
24 by UN officials in regard to the shelling of Knin on the 4th and 5 of
25 August. I think there are other documents that suggest a different
1 picture that are available to this Chamber. Whether they will be
2 submitted, I do not know.
3 Q. Mr. Roberts, please identify by name the persons that we can
4 contact who would have drafted those reports which contradict these two
6 A. Well, I can't recall now by name, but I can attempt to find them
7 out from personal records of UN employees that worked in Sector South at
8 the time.
9 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me turn to your personal observations on the
10 morning of the 4th of August.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. MISETIC:
13 Q. Before I turn to that, Mr. Roberts, are you aware that -- based
14 on your conversations with the Office of the Prosecutor in recent weeks
15 are aware that the senior UNMO, the Senior Military Observer, Steinar
16 Hjertnes, has told the Office of the Prosecutor that he filed a final
17 assessment of the shelling and that it was consistent with the findings
18 in the provisional assessment? Are you aware of that?
19 A. I'm not aware he has appeared before the Court I'm aware that a
20 final assessment was sent, yes.
21 Q. How are you aware that a final assessment was sent, by UNMO?
22 A. I think at the time I knew a final assessment report was being
23 sent to Zagreb
24 UNMO office about a further assessment to the one I was shown now, in
25 terms of the 18th of August.
1 Q. And in those conversations with UNMO at the time, they told you
2 that the further assessment was consistent with the initial assessment.
3 Isn't that correct?
4 A. I think I recall seeing the final document that went up and that
5 it concurred with their initial assessment.
6 Q. Thank you, sir.
7 A. I can just add one point in terms of this final issue?
8 Q. Sure.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
10 THE WITNESS: This is suggesting from the report I'm seeing on
11 the screen that my information in my statements is incorrect. I can only
12 refer Chamber and the Court to witnesses who were in Knin on the morning
13 of the 4th and 5th, and I know that they submitted reports --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Roberts, whether these documents suggest that
15 your assessment is wrong or whether your assessment suggests that the
16 reports are wrong is something the Chamber will have to consider at a
17 later stage, and advice to the Court as to whom should be called as
18 witnesses, first of all, in this procedural system it's mainly left to
19 the parties, although the Court has an opportunity to call witnesses if
20 it wishes to do so, but I think advice at this point either to the
21 parties or to the Court is, however good your intentions may be, is not
22 the real thing we're waiting for.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Roberts, turning to P676, which is your 1998 witness
1 statement, at page 3 towards the top, second -- third -- second full
2 paragraph towards the middle, it says: "Shortly before 0500 hours at
3 about 0450 hours I was surprised to see an UN mini-bus drive rapidly
4 along the side street in the direction of my apartment building. It was
5 accompanied by an UN jeep."
6 And if we could go to P677, page 4, on the bottom paragraph you
7 say: "On the morning of the 4th of August, 1995, I was asleep in my
8 apartment on the top third floor of a block of apartments in Knin when I
9 was awakened by a sudden crash of heavy explosives just before 5.00 a.m.
10 My question to you is were you awake at 4.50 observing UN
11 vehicles or were you asleep and awoken at around 5.00 a.m. by artillery?
12 A. The general paragraph here is not correct. This statement was
13 made in 2007 to an investigator. That is completely true the date of the
14 statement is made. And the better recollection for sure which this whole
15 episode of the shelling something described is in the 1998 statement and
16 I prefer that that's the one that I think is much more realistic, in
17 terms of what I remember and recall at that time from 1995.
18 Q. Is there a reason that you didn't correct that as you reviewed it
19 to testify before the Trial Chamber?
20 A. I think this is the general reflection of what happened but not
21 in detail, and I did not correct it, no. But that is the reason why I'm
22 pointing out, albeit late now, that 1991 is the one that's much closer to
23 the time of the events concerned.
24 Q. Now in your 1998 statement at page 4, you say at the top of the
25 page: "The last Radio Knin broadcast was I think about 0500 hours
1 warning the public of the incoming attack."
2 Do you recall that?
3 A. Can you bring that up on the -- sorry.
4 Q. Sure. That is P676.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Must be a mistake on the record where you refer to
7 MR. MISETIC: 1998.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
9 MR. MISETIC: Page 4, please.
10 Q. I'd read the portion, the sentence previously begins: "The radio
11 and TV studio building behind the main street in the centre of town was
12 apparently hit in the early morning barrage."
13 Then it says: "The last Radio Knin broadcast was, I think about
14 0500 hours warning the public of the incoming attack."
15 Now, did you hear the broadcast?
16 A. I didn't hear the broadcast directly. We took a quick summary
17 from a taped version of the broadcast that was going on but there were
18 also, not here, I was aware later that there were other broadcasts of
19 Radio Knin during the day but the focus of warning the public of the
20 incoming attack was of what was going on on that morning. And I think
21 there were actually three broadcasts of Radio Knin during the course of
22 the 4th of August.
23 Q. Is there any particular reason you have said in the statement in
24 1998 that the last radio broadcast was at 0500 hours and connecting it in
25 context of saying the radio and TV studio building behind the main street
1 in the centre of town was apparently hit in the early morning barrage of
2 4 August 1995
3 Is it fair to say that in 1998 you were saying that the early
4 barrage hit Radio Knin and that that resulted in Radio Knin going off the
6 A. No, I recall there was a broadcast early morning about the
7 shelling and what was happening and in general a very blurred picture of
8 a radio news broadcast. I don't think that that was going -- in terms of
9 the building being hit and then going off the air, that this was the last
11 Q. How did Radio Knin --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
13 MR. MISETIC: I'm sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on the French transcript, the beginning of your
15 question was not yet translated, but ...
16 MR. MISETIC:
17 Q. How did Radio Knin know that an attack was coming?
18 A. I don't know. I have put here the last radio broadcast, I think,
19 about 0500 hours warning the public, but the nature of the broadcast was
20 about the attack as well as what was happening by revealing the
21 bombardment that was not just in Knin but through the general area of the
22 so-called Krajina that an attack was taking place in many cities. And
23 the later broadcasts of that echo that. It is not accurate here the way
24 it is interpreted I can see the way isn't it warning the public as if
25 it's an announcement there's going to be an attack. I'm sorry about
1 that, but that's not the way in which the broadcast was heard. It was
2 about the bombardment being in many areas throughout the so-called
4 Q. Now in your statements and I won't go through them all, but if
5 you don't mind I will read them to you and if you need to see them, we'll
6 show them to you.
7 In 1998 you said at page 2: "We had not managed to even dress
8 properly and hit the floor together in the central lobby of their second
9 floor apartment below my own."
10 In P677, which is 28 February 2007
11 immediately became aware that incoming artillery shells were coming from
12 the Croatian positions on the Dinara mountain above Knin. I headed for
13 safety down to the second floor landing where I was joined by Nevis
14 sister and her sister's husband and their young son."
15 Now, sir, is it fair to say that for a large portion of the
16 shelling, you were -- and you had sought shelter on the second floor for
17 your own personal safety?
18 A. Yes. And again if I'm not mistaken, I describe that in my 1998
19 statement in those paragraphs that run consecutively as I recall. We
20 were there on the second floor central part of the building from the
21 moments when the shelling began for at least 45 minutes, maybe an hour.
22 I think I have said this more previously in the statement. Hearing the
23 bombardment going overhead.
24 MR. MISETIC: If we can go to P677, please. Page 4, please. At
25 the bottom.
1 Q. Now, in that bottom paragraph you describe what you saw from the
2 balcony and you say, the last sentence: "After about an hour I went back
3 to my apartment and I could see smoke rising from the," if we can go to
4 the next page, please, at the top, "direction of the RSK government
5 building as well as a fuel depot located quite close to the RSK
6 government building. However, I was also aware of smoke rising from the
7 top of civilian apartments in various parts of town," and then it goes
9 A. Can we -- sorry.
10 Q. My question to you, sir, is until your statement of July 1, 2008
11 which is a little more than three weeks ago, in none of your statements,
12 and you gave five of them, did you ever say anything about seeing dead
13 bodies from your balcony. Is that accurate?
14 A. Yes, that is.
15 Q. Okay. Now, on the 4th of August, one of your primary
16 responsibilities was to communicate what was happening in Knin with the
17 domestic and international press. Is that correct?
18 A. Once I got to headquarters, yes, it is.
19 MR. MISETIC: One moment, Your Honour.
20 There we go.
21 Q. Now, let's --
22 MR. MISETIC: If I could call up, please -- sorry, Your Honour.
23 1D41-0311. Okay.
24 Q. This is a Reuters report from 4 August 1995 talking about what is
25 happening. It says towards the middle of that page, it's a
1 paragraph starting: "UN spokesman in Knin, Alun Roberts, said
2 peacekeepers saw civilian who had been wounded in the bombardment but
3 said it was difficult to gauge how many people were injured."
4 A. That's a question or can I comment?
5 Q. Yes. I was going to take you through, if necessary, several of
6 these reports, none of which have you saying, We know of at least two
7 casualties because I saw them myself.
8 Can you comment on that?
9 A. Yes, I can certainly. I have said it in my statement before. My
10 view personally on the ground as a spokesperson was to be very cautious
11 and not to go out with anything because I had to be in touch with my
12 press office in Zagreb
13 line coming from out from Zagreb
14 was not just on Knin. Other parts of the sector were being affected as
15 well as Sector North and therefore I was, as I said in my statement, very
16 cautious, I wanted to be cautious before I went out and started saying,
17 Well, I have a particular person who saw three people, that's very, very
18 tempting to do but not in the first hours of 4th August 1995 and that is
19 not the first time that I found myself in that situation.
20 Q. Mr. Roberts, I could take you through these various Reuters
21 reports. I won't. Suffice it to say that they all quote you and none of
22 them quote you as identifying any persons having been killed that you had
23 seen. I note your answer.
24 My question to you then is: If you didn't mention it on the 4th,
25 what precluded you in five witness statements to the Office of the
1 Prosecutor from bringing it up then?
2 A. I had recalled in 2007 --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please --
4 A. Sorry, Your Honour.
5 The sequence of my statements with the first one in 1997, which
6 did not deal with the bombardment, and then I was asked by the Tribunal
7 investigators to prepare another statement, which would be focussed very
8 much on the issue of the bombardment, which I did in 1998 and submitted
9 it. There was then a ten-year gap between any further contact by
10 investigators from ICTY to visit myself to follow up. I had thought in
11 the intervening period that that 1998 statement covered all dimensions of
12 the attack and what I had seen, including what I had seen from my
13 balcony. In making the last statement, I was asked, Okay, and did you
14 see personally any bodies or people hit or killed, and then I put in yes,
15 I recall from the balcony I saw two and I thought a third. And that went
16 in very late. But I had thought that some of that was in the 1998
17 statement and it was not.
18 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I would like to tender this document
19 into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit D711, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: D711 is admitted into evidence.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. MISETIC: Mr. Registrar, if I may have 1D41-0293.
2 Q. Mr. Roberts, what I'm going to show you is a Croatian document
3 noting a conversation that you had on the 4th of August. The document
4 itself is from the 4th of August, between you as the UN spokesmen in
5 Sector South and the conversation you had with Mr. Stojan Obradovic who
6 worked for the Stina news agency. Do you recall him?
7 A. Yes, I recall the news agency in Split, Stina.
8 Q. I'd like to just take this through the time of the interview
9 purports to at 1415 hours on 4 August 1995. At the bottom of the second
10 paragraph, speaking of you it said: "He said that the repeated shelling
11 of the town centre, Knin, had occurred approximately 25 minutes ago" --
12 A. Just which paragraph are we on?
13 Q. Paragraph 2, last sentence. "And that the situation at the
14 moment was calm." Do you see that?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. This is it also subject of statements made by UN spokesperson 4th
18 August at around 14, 1500 concerning events in Sector South.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. So he is dating that in the early afternoon of the 4th of August,
22 Q. Correct.
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Now, if we go to the fourth paragraph : "Asked by Obradovic on
25 the situation in the town regarding the civilians, Roberts said there was
1 no panic among the civilians. However, in his opinion the people were
2 extremely shocked and surprised by the shelling this morning. Apartments
3 have been destroyed and many window and shops -- shop windows broken.
4 "When asked whether there were any fatally wounded he answered
5 that they had contacted with the Knin hospital at which they were told
6 that there was a need for assistance and supplies.
7 "Furthermore, Roberts said that they were willing to provide
8 assistance as much as they could..." and then it goes on, last sentence
9 there: "No information was available on the number of seriously wounded
11 If we could turn to the next page, please.
12 The second-to-last sentence which begins in the middle: "Asked
13 by Obradovic on how the people would react if the Croatian army entered
14 Knin, he answered that he did not want to be speculative about that.
15 However, that the people in Knin were in an extremely serious situation,
16 very much concerned and anxious during the shelling but still not asking
17 for their assistance in order to leave or abandon the said area. He
18 noted that the situation in Knin was extremely serious."
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Now, a few questions on that.
21 First, you will note again that in this interview, when asked
22 specifically about fatally wounded, you did not respond by saying that
23 you had personally witnessed two fatally wounded persons. Correct?
24 A. That's correct. And I had been in touch with my -- with my press
25 office colleagues in Zagreb
1 done of a broader nature by the various civilian elements that had come
2 into headquarters in the morning as well as people in Sector South
3 command headquarters to put out something towards Zagreb mid-afternoon
4 for an update. So I didn't want to go after the conversation with
5 Christopher Gunness and make any kind of personal observations when I
6 felt a larger picture was being presented at the mission headquarters
7 press office. And this paragraph here, I think -- I think sums it up
8 pretty well of being very much inside the box, when quite a few other
9 people were running around wanting to say and I think did say various
10 information that was not consistent. These are people that I think
11 responded to the press before I got to the Sector South headquarters that
12 I learned about later about what they had said.
13 Q. Mr. Roberts, following up on that second response, you said this
14 was -- it sums up pretty well being very much inside the box.
15 A. Yes, that's correct. Right.
16 Q. It also sums up well, does it not, that at the moment that you
17 were speaking with this reporter at 1415, there was no panic among the
18 civilians. Correct?
19 A. At 1415 we had, yes, I think there was no visible sign of panic.
20 I had been in the town about an hour before this phone call from Stina
21 and we had, as you saw on the videotape, the ad hoc press briefing by
22 General Forand accompanied by myself in the centre of town in the
23 ex-former so-called RSK government headquarters restaurant and we had
24 seen coming away from there, ten minutes, people beginning to put things
25 in cars, there was debris on the streets and there was the first signs of
1 people preparing to leave to go. There was no kind of visible sense of
2 people panic. People were asking us what was going on, but that's all.
3 But I didn't sort of see, I said here, a visible sign of emotion, panic
4 at that time which would about an hour or half-hour before this comment
5 to Stina.
6 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I tender this document into
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit D712, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D712 is admitted into evidence.
13 Mr. Misetic, I notice that we had ten minutes delay in our start,
14 even a bit more, you said you would finish by the second break.
15 MR. MISETIC: I have, and I was going to ask for the Trial
16 Chamber's --
17 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need?
18 MR. MISETIC: I have one topic. I will tell you it is to cover
19 the issue of the evacuation. The witness was I believe personally
20 present at some discussions. I would finish it in lest than 15 minutes,
21 Your Honour, unless Mr. Waespi needs some extra time in which case I
22 would cut it shorter.
23 MR. WAESPI: I need about 15 minutes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: About 15 minutes. Now, of course, it is it usually
25 preferable to have the break just prior to the start of the
1 re-examination, but I'm looking at our interpreters and transcribers,
2 whether they would insist on having a break now, no, not insisting on.
3 This is the communication, the unspoken with our interpreters.
4 Mr. Misetic, I'll strictly keep you to not one second more than
5 15 minutes.
6 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MR. MISETIC: Let me just note that I'm sure the interpreters
9 wish there was more unspoken communication by me today, but I thank them
10 for their indulgence.
11 Q. Mr. Roberts, let me take you to this issue of evacuation. In
12 your 2007 statement, you talked about arriving back -- let me find it.
13 When you arrived back in Sector South after your vacation, which
14 I believe you said was on the 3rd of August when you arrived. Is that
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. You said that you had heard in 2007 and let me quote it: "When I
18 first arrived back in Knin after my vacation, I had learned from the
19 office of the Sector South commander of what had been a rather unusual
20 follow-up to a meeting earlier in July 1995 for UN assistance for the
21 evacuation of the civilian population of Knin in the event of an attack
22 by the Croatian army?"
23 Do you recall making that statement to the Office of the
25 A. Yes, I do and subsequently it is very important to add right here
1 that there was discussion with investigates concerning the document that
2 described that discussion and it was clearly assessed that that type of
3 document could not have been made on the date concerned, but I had
4 recalled general discussion of something being told me about assistance
5 request if things got out of hand, developments. I recalled long time
6 ago in 2007 to 1995, but at the time I came back something like that was
7 in my mind and then I related that to this page that has this odd date of
8 July 1995 on. But as has been clarified in going through that document
9 specifically, in what that says, that date is clearly wrong and the real
10 significant assistance of UN request was discussions on the 4th of
12 But I can recall that on coming back being told something by two
13 officials in the commander's office of something earlier being discussed
14 generally should things be getting to a very difficult stage but not in
15 terms of assistance from the UN in characterizing what that really was.
16 And we spent a fair bit of time going through this with the statement.
17 Q. Mr. Roberts, just as a technical matter, when I pause after your
18 answer, it is because I'm trying to let the interpreters catch up, so if
19 you then continue to fill the pause, we never catch up, just so we can
20 assist the interpreters. Thank you.
21 Now, let's talk about what you just said, that on the 4th of
22 August there were more -- the really significant UN assistance was on the
23 4th of August.
24 Can you explain in more detail what discussions took place
25 between the UN and the RSK about providing evacuation assistance?
1 A. Well, for me, the -- the issue, as I recall, was raised by a
2 journalist at the about 12.00 noon
3 was Worldwide Television news, a local crew, that asked a question and
4 I'm now paraphrasing what may have been introduced into evidence by
5 General Forand, so I don't want to go and restate that, but as I recall
6 he responded that -- it was a question more or less like what are the UN
7 doing to assist and provide support to help people leave or provide
8 petrol, and the general reply, well, forgive me, we are the UN and your
9 authorities are responsible for those things and that there had been no
10 real contact from the RSK political and military in regard to requesting
11 assistance in any clear-cut manner.
12 It was later in the afternoon that we began to see things change
13 and as I said in my statement people arriving outside the gates of
14 Sector South headquarters and then the picture changed quite quickly in a
15 few hours, and then there was a meeting in the evening that was supposed
16 to take place between the so-called RSK authorities and Sector South
17 headquarters but as far as I know, there was no actual presence of UN
18 personnel that went to that meeting. It didn't take place.
19 Q. Well, do you know if General Forand went to have a meeting with
20 the ARSK representatives at about 1800 in the evening of the 4th of
21 August, 1995?
22 A. I understood him to go downtown for that meeting, yes. And I
23 refer to that -- I'm not sure and he will have told you if he has been
24 before the Court what happened. But I'm not sure that people from the
25 with RSK in any real responsible positions were present to have that
1 dialogue and discussion. I know that the general came back really, in my
2 view, quite frustrated about what these people were trying to do, look
3 what's going on and what they're asking was --
4 Q. Well --
5 A. I was going to say way beyond what the UN could really lend
6 itself to.
7 Q. Was Kostan Ovakovic [phoen] a responsible RSK official?
8 A. Well, I have to speculate.
9 Q. I don't want you do that.
10 A. No. Okay. But I've met him before.
11 Q. I have -- Mr. Roberts, I'm sorry, I have five minutes, so I don't
12 want to you speculate.
13 A. No, I'll be very direct, then. My view of Mr. Ovakovic was not
14 being very organised and being rather idealistic and descriptive and not
15 really realistic in the weeks preceding as to what really was happening
16 around Knin militarily or other developments.
17 Q. You mentioned in your 2007 statement at page 6 that you were
18 present at the press conference - we saw the video earlier - he said he
19 was having trouble making contact with RSK authorities but that he
20 mentioned that sometime before, there had been a request from RSK
21 authorities for UN assistance to evacuate a large number of civilians.
22 However, as no plan or follow-up had been received -- just, sorry for the
24 Is that referring to the July conversations that you've testified
25 about already?
1 A. I think not. I think it is referring very much to that
2 particular day.
3 Q. So earlier in the day there had been some request from RSK
4 authorities to provide UN assistance to evacuate civilians?
5 A. I think there had been a meeting before the press briefing, but
6 I'm not sure. General Forand perhaps would refer to that. But even
7 then, I think it was along the lines of the UN at the Sector South
8 commander's level wanting to know precisely what it was that they needed
9 and it was not being presented in a written form. A later meeting was
10 supposed to happen quickly or soon after to devise that, and this is what
11 was referred to as the 1800 meeting and I recall the general coming back
12 and nothing had been concluded. It was really almost too late.
13 MR. MISETIC: Okay. Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D41-0341,
15 THE WITNESS: Can I add, Your Honour, on just the very same issue
16 or time is --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Briefly. I'll look at the clock and I will not --
18 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Give credit to you, Mr. Misetic.
21 THE WITNESS: Also in the aspect of time, all I remember is that
22 we found ourselves mid-evening negotiating with the several hundred Serb
23 civilians with tractors, trailers, whatever, outside the gates about what
24 we could do to assist them and making them have two clear choices, which
25 I described in my statement what they were, to save time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: 30 seconds credit, Mr. Misetic.
2 MR. MISETIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Roberts, you will note that this is a report of a broadcast
4 on Serbian Radio Belgrade
5 20 GMT. Is it General Mrksic on giving an interview and if I can find
6 the right portion.
7 Towards the middle there, he says: "No, the disengagement line
8 has not been changed. Our forces have withdrawn to positions for the
9 direct defence of Knin."
10 And above that -- sorry. That is what I was looking for: "The
11 aggression that started at 0500 continued until night-fall. Combat
12 operations in the Knin region have been suspended for the moment. Knin
13 is in darkness and the population is being evacuated."
14 In your statement you said that you were monitoring Radio Knin
15 and didn't hear anything about an evacuation order having been issued.
16 Is it possible, sir, that General Mrksic was on Radio Belgrade, made the
17 announcement that there had been an evacuation order but that it wasn't
18 on the Radio Knin because it had been knocked out for the shelling. And
19 if you could pause for the interpreters, please?
20 A. I have seen this document before, in terms of Mr. Mrksic's
21 statement from Belgrade
22 read it.
23 MR. MISETIC: Okay. I tender this --
24 A. Because I felt it was covered up after the event by people who
25 had left or were in Belgrade
1 Q. This is from the 4th of August, sir?
2 A. Yes, I'm saying that, that this person is speaking, as I
3 understand, from?
4 Q. No. He is on Radio Belgrade from Knin.
5 A. Right. Yeah, yeah.
6 MR. MISETIC: I tender the document, Your Honour, and I have one
7 more document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
9 MR. WAESPI: No objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit D713, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D713 is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. MISETIC: Last topic, sir, 1D41-0343.
14 Q. This is a New York Times article. I'm sure you saw it last
15 night, December 12, 1995, talking about everything that had happened
16 after Operation Storm.
17 If we could go to the next page. At the bottom, please. You are
18 quoted as follows: "There has not been an organised government campaign
19 to harass, loot, and kill people,' said Alun Roberts, a United Nations
20 spokesman, 'but there has been no sincere organised attempt by the
21 authorities to control the situation."
22 Does that statement that you made to the New York Times
23 accurately reflect your view of what took place?
24 A. The question put by the journalist was broader and this is an
25 portion of my answer, but that's what I, said, that there has been no --
1 not been an organised government campaign.
2 I would just ask the Chamber, please, to also reflect on my other
3 statements and those especially made by my spokesperson colleagues from
5 not really saying that is the whole sweep of the UN's scope of it.
6 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I tender it into evidence.
7 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit D714, Your Honours.
10 MR. MISETIC: I thank you, Mr. Roberts, for testifying, and I
11 thank the Trial Chamber for the extra time. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We will have a break and we'll resume at five
13 minutes past 1.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 1.10 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Waespi:
18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I have three short, I
19 hope, topics to cover.
20 Q. The first one, Mr. Roberts, is following up on a question by
21 Mr. Misetic before the break. The so-called final assessment of the SMO
22 and that refers to Prosecution Exhibit 64, the two-page document. Do you
23 recall, Mr. Roberts, has been shown to you.
24 Now, you answered on an inquiry whether you had heard of any --
25 any final assessment, you said, yes, you recall seeing a final
1 assessment, a follow-up to P64, and you also said that it was consistent
2 with the initial assessment.
3 Now where did you see that document?
4 A. As I recall, in the office of the UN Military Observers in
5 Sector South headquarters.
6 Q. And was there a person who directed you to or how did you come
7 across the document?
8 A. Just regular daily visits and discussions with UNMOs in the UNMO
9 office downstairs on the first floor.
10 Q. And how big was the document, how many pages, if more than one
12 A. It was more than one page. I thought it was quite a substantial
13 document, going through various parts of Knin. It was an assessment
14 report. I didn't go and read it there and then or anything, but I was
15 shown it as what's being sent in to the mission headquarters.
16 Q. Do you have a copy, did you make a copy of the document?
17 A. I don't think I did. I'm not completely sure. I don't think so.
18 Q. Do you recall the date?
19 A. It would be some -- I'm only speculating now, not being sure.
20 Sometime middle September, I think, something like that. It was
21 certainly a few weeks after the 18th of August initial provisional
22 assessment that was shown me just now. That was the date, I think.
23 Q. And did you discuss it with its author, the SMO?
24 A. I did have a conversation with Steinar about this, yes.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
1 Let's turn to a second brief issue, the -- your UN interpreter.
2 Who picked Mr. Predrag Sare as your UN interpreter?
3 A. He was assigned and recruited for employment before I arrived in
4 September 1993. He would have gone through the normal process of
5 employing interpretation staff by having to go fill in an application, be
6 interviewed by personnel office, a background check would have had to
7 have been done, and the panel who would interview him would be two or
8 three people, usually somebody from personnel, somebody from the section
9 who would employ him, which would be civil affairs overall, and one other
10 person, usually a panel of three.
11 Q. Were you involved in hiring him?
12 A. No. I was not in Sector South at the time.
13 Q. The other issue in connection to him, did you receive any
14 complaints for instance witnesses who were interviewed a second time with
15 a different interpreter that, you know, the first interview with Mr. Sare
16 was not accurate? Have you ever heard of any such complaints?
17 A. No. To the contrary. I know when senior officials from
18 headquarters in Zagreb
19 would be assigned as the official interpreter at higher level meetings,
20 the reason being purely on the need for very accurate fast interpretation
21 not only in English but sometimes in different languages. French, I
22 think, Swedish, Italian. He had a broad range of languages.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
24 Let's turn to the last issue and that's something Mr. Kuzmanovic
25 raised with you. He asked you whether you gave the licence plates, the
1 sketch or the list with those licence plate numbers to the Croatian
2 authorities, and you answered no.
3 Now let me show you 65 ter 5323, which is one of the documents on
4 the list to be tendered with you.
5 MR. WAESPI: If we could go to page 5 at paragraph 18, and this
6 is page 7 on the B/C/S.
7 Q. Do you remember having written a report on the Varivode incident,
8 Mr. Roberts?
9 A. Just one second.
10 Yes, I did write a report of the public information office on the
11 whole of Varivode, yes.
12 Q. And perhaps -- I'm sorry, I should have done that, if we could
13 see the first page first.
14 Is that your report, Mr. Roberts?
15 A. Yes, that's the report, 3rd of October 1995.
16 Q. Thank you. Going back to page 5 at paragraph 18 and it is the
17 last paragraph before paragraph 19, last subparagraph. It's on page 5 --
18 not on paragraph 5, page 5.
19 Yes. Can you scroll down a little bit more, please. Yes, that's
21 Let me read you what you wrote in October following the Varivode
22 incident. "I subsequently learned tonight from UN CIVPOL's deputy sector
23 chief, Lief Bjorken, present at the meeting today that they have asked
24 the Croatian police in Zadar for copies of all documentation and full
25 access to the investigation. (That would be a first time if it
2 Now, do you know whether it happened for the first time that UN
3 CIVPOL got full access to an investigation site?
4 A. Well, as far as I know, if it did happen, it would be a first
5 time, because of the actual request I knew had been made at several
6 police stations for investigation reports. This was a serious incident
7 and that's my rather sarcastic response back to myself, and later it is
8 contrasted at the very end of that report in talking to Lief again that
9 they had not got all documentation many weeks after the incident itself
10 from the Zadar police. They couldn't talk anymore to the UN CIVPOL. It
11 had been handed to the actual courts for processing, and the whole report
12 concludes as is available to the Chamber.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: With all due respect, Your Honour --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: What relevance does this have to whether or not
16 plates were handed by Mr. Roberts -- it was obvious he didn't hand the
17 plates in regarding the incident I crossed him on. What does this have
18 to do with that? They're completely different issues.
19 MR. WAESPI: The next question, I believe, will reveal Mr. --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will wait for the next question.
21 MR. WAESPI:
22 Q. Now, returning to the issue of not providing these licence plate
23 numbers to the Croatian police, based on your experience you gained in
24 dealings with the Croatian authorities and their responses to your
25 requests, do you think you would have gotten any response back from the
1 Croatian authorities if you had given them the licence plate numbers?
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, Your Honour, that's complete
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, this really calls for speculation. You
5 can ask the witness about when he made requests and, then of course we
6 would have to consider requests which are of a similar kind as the matter
7 we're dealing, which, by the way, is not a request but not providing
8 information spontaneously, which is of course, so therefore the question
9 is not only calling for speculation if any request -- if he would have
10 done so, whether he would have had a response. I think the issue is
11 whether, with due diligence, information was given to the police forces
12 that would have to investigate so as to assist them, not necessarily to
13 reach responses, that's what I understand to be the issue.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And, Your Honour, if I might add, this is
15 completely the reserve the situation.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think I already pointed that out.
17 MR. WAESPI: I can ask --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, ask whatever kind of factual questions
19 but --
20 MR. WAESPI: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- not the question you had just put to him.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. WAESPI:
24 Q. Mr. Roberts, can you let us know the reasons if there are any
25 specific reasons why you did not pass on the list of licence plates to
1 the Croatian police.
2 A. The reason was, first, I had given this list to UN CIVPOL; I hope
3 that is clear from what I said earlier. I understood they were in touch
4 with the Croatian police in Knin and that was my feeling of chain of
5 command. I don't want to say anything further but that is the way I
6 passed it on in terms of CIVPOL having it, CIVPOL in touch with the
7 police and whatever was going to happen would be used in that fashion or
8 chain of command.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
10 MR. WAESPI: Let's move to 65 ter 5334. And Mr. President,
11 that's the Robert Fisk article, the second one that has not been admitted
12 based on your earlier ruling, but I believe that this issue opens the
13 door to ask the witness for a comment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. WAESPI: And I believe its correct number is P687 MNA, marked
16 non-admitted, I think is the ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's --
18 MR. WAESPI: And I'm interested in the second page, the last
19 paragraph, and we already heard a couple of days ago who Mr. Fisk was.
20 Q. Now I read you the last paragraph. And I quote: "The Croat
21 interior ministry police, who are deeply implicated in the murders and
22 burnings in Krajina claim they will investigate acts of arson or looting.
23 Doubtless, they will be able to trace the two cars of the anonymous three
24 Croat ethnic cleansers. The first, an Audi, carried the registration
25 number ZD 570 H from the coastal town of Zadar, while the other bore the
1 number plate KR 770 H, registered in Karlovac, 30 miles from Zagreb
2 Equally doubtless, however, the Croat police will not lift a finger to
3 find out who owns the car, since they must know all too well."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I have no idea what the connection
6 is with these license plates and this article with the incident that
7 we're discussing in cross-examination and direct examination earlier.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps the questions to follow will shed some light
9 on that.
10 MR. WAESPI:
11 Q. Mr. Roberts, is the experience Mr. Fisk talks about in dealing
12 with the Croatian police in relation to finding out about the owners of
13 cars of suspected perpetrators consistent with your experience?
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt Mr. Waespi,
15 but first of all, Mr. Fisk who writes this article doesn't say that he
16 dealt with the Croatian police. It has absolutely nothing to do with
17 dealing with the Croatian police. He doesn't say who he talked to, he
18 doesn't say what he dealt with, he doesn't say that he gave him the
19 licence plate numbers. He doesn't say anything. It is an article
20 expressing an opinion with a conclusion.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first, Mr. Waespi, if you want to find out
22 whether the experience of Mr. Fisk, whatever that exactly was, is
23 consistent with the witness's own experience, first ask him about his own
24 experience and then at least we have a starting point which is solid, and
25 then the comparison to be made will depend on what the answer of the
1 witness will be.
2 MR. WAESPI: Very well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. WAESPI:
5 Q. Mr. Roberts, were you involved in providing the Croatian police
6 with information about alleged crimes you have witnessed in the Krajina
7 following Operation Storm?
8 A. I was present with UN CIVPOL on several occasions when they gave
9 information to the police authorities in Knin and subsequently to advise
10 the Court, if I could, the -- there are more than maybe a dozen or more
11 CIVPOL Knin reports of UN CIVPOL about incidents where they saw and
12 recorded licence plate numbers of incidents of arson, looting and other
13 violent acts and they gave those, that information of those incidents
14 with what they saw of licence plates to the Knin authorities and that
15 information should be, have been, tabled to the court authorities but
16 exists certainly.
17 Q. And following up on your answer, did you every get the feedback
18 by the Croatian police on what they did with this information? Did they
19 report back and say, Yes, we received information, we followed up, that's
20 what we are doing or what we did with it?
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: What information are we talking about? Are we
22 talking in general, are we talking a specific incident? It's very broad
23 and vague.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's split up the question in two portions. First,
25 about what -- first, whether there was in the feedback on investigative
1 steps on the event described in general terms; and then, second part,
2 whether you ever received any feedback in relation to specifically
3 licence plate numbers being investigated and results of such
5 Could you please answer the question.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
7 Well, chain of command again it would not be that the police of
8 Knin would report obviously to me, the press officer, but they report to
9 CIVPOL and on many contacts with CIVPOL in Knin station and headquarters,
10 my impression was from their reports to mission headquarters that there
11 was no feedback of follow-up investigations when they had submitted oral
12 and written information to the police, including on occasions information
13 useful like licence plate numbers.
14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I believe the witness
15 answered the second question as well with his last point.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think he did, yes.
17 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, especially in light of the tendering
18 of certainly a dozen of different newspaper articles over the last two
19 days, Slobodna Dalmacija, New York Times today, I suggest also, given the
20 witness's answer, that this exhibit should be received into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
22 MR. MISETIC: Just for the record, I see a distinction between
23 tendering a New York Times article which quotes the witness on the stand
24 and putting the quote to the witness and taking an article which doesn't
25 have any direct relationship to the witness and start putting newspaper
1 articles in. I just wanted to note that distinction. With respect to
2 the particular substance, I'll leave it to other counsel since the issue
3 doesn't deal with my cross-examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Mr. Misetic rose before I did. I would join in
6 that objection and especially considering the lack of relevance
7 specifically to the issues that were covered in cross.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay.
9 MR. KAY: Slobodna Dalmacija was the exhibit that I put in,
10 already in evidence before the Court because it directly referred to the
11 accused and therefore, quoting him in the national press, it was a matter
12 that was admissible and relevant but the Fisk article as we have seen
13 causes all sort of evidential problems, and if the Court opens the door
14 with this particular article one can foresee that many more can come
15 through the door, because there is no basis between this witness's
16 evidence and Mr. Fisk's experience.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, if there would be good reasons to admit
18 this in evidence, then it would not be a problem to open the door because
19 then there would be good reasons for similar evidence in the future, so
20 that argument, as such, that it would have some follow-up, whether that
21 is acceptable or not acceptable depends on the acceptability of the
22 decision on this one. Let me just --
23 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps --
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi.
1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I believe one of the issues brought by the
2 Defence the last time we discussed this exhibit was that the author
3 cannot be cross-examined. That applies to us as well. We cannot
4 cross-examine or we could not, the author of not only Slobodna Dalmacija,
5 also Vecernje List, and there are three -- D36, D37, D59, D38. I don't
6 think all of them relate to direct quotes from the accused. It's about
7 reliability, about giving weight, but I think also given the earlier link
8 between Mr. Fisk and Mr. Roberts here who met each other before Mr. Fisk
9 went out and what he said today clearly is enough of a foundation between
10 this witness, the tendering witness and the evidence and that's all that
11 matters in my view, Mr. President.
12 MR. KAY: One observation, I'm sorry, every article produced by
13 us mentions Mr. Cermak.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, there is no need for your observation
16 because the Chamber does not reconsider its decision on the admission of
17 the -- this document.
18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 The last document I would like to show is a document which was on
20 the list of exhibits, potential exhibits for Mr. Roberts from the
21 Gotovina Defence and I'd like to call it up on the screen.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We earlier said that we do not reconsider. Of
23 course the right language might have been that we have considered whether
24 we should change our decision and that is of course a kind of
25 reconsideration and that our conclusion is that we'll not give a decision
1 different from the earlier.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. This is 1D41-0114, a
4 four-page document dated 19th October 1995, authored by the Republic of
5 Croatia Ministry of the Interior, bureau for the protection of the
6 constitutional order.
7 Q. And it talks about various issues of Croatian intelligence into
8 what the UNMOs were doing. And it has one reference to Mr. Roberts, and
9 that's on page 3 of the English version. The third full paragraph, the
10 large one starts: "The person drawing most attention both prior to and
11 after Operation Storm is Alun Roberts from Wales who has been almost
12 openly supporting the Serb side ever since he arrived in Knin up to the
13 present days. He is highly appreciated among his colleagues for his
14 professionalism and engagement in his mandate."
15 And it goes on of course to discuss the connection between
16 Mr. Roberts and Predrag Sare in whom it says here Mr. Roberts has great
18 Is that an accurate reflection of the way you were perceived by
19 your colleagues and the dealings with Mr. Sare as found out by the
20 Croatian intelligence, Mr. Roberts?
21 A. Their perception, and I can only speculate, I don't know whether
22 it's accurate, but it came across to me that I was considered to be a
23 sympathizer of the people in Knin with a particular allegiance to certain
24 local people and to certain interpreters, and this was, just quickly,
25 referred to and raised by the press colleagues in Zadar at the press
1 briefing in open questions and given a quite clear descriptive response
2 which was not reported by me in terms of way the UN works and how we go
3 about being public information officers and how we are checked and how we
4 conduct our work.
5 Q. Were you aware that the Croatian authorities, after
6 Operation Storm, the end of Operation Storm, equally checked and looked
7 into what the members of the UN were doing?
8 MR. MISETIC: I object.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- before we deal with this question.
10 The previous question, I thought that you were asking about how
11 colleagues of Mr. Roberts appreciated him; that is, positive and
12 professionalism and engagement in his mandate. And I got the impression
13 from the answer that Mr. Roberts was not talking about that.
14 So I first have to verify whether that was what you asked for.
15 MR. WAESPI: Yes, that's correct, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And then I have to ask Mr. Roberts whether his
17 answer was about how he was appreciated by his colleagues in terms of
18 professionalism and commitment or that you were talking about how the
19 Croatians or the Serbs, whomever may have appreciated you.
20 THE WITNESS: The answer is, first of all, that's how I perceive
21 the view of the Croatian authorities would be towards me. In regard to
22 colleagues, meaning UN colleagues, the answer would be, yes, I think that
23 that's the viewpoint throughout. For information, usually public
24 information officer of the UN or political affairs officers usually only
25 stay one year in a mission area before they are transferred for a range
1 of reasons, especially in conflict, but I continued there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Waespi, it comes as a bit of a surprise
3 that you ask about A, get an answer about B, and that you just go on to
4 your next question. That suggests that you -- your question or the
5 answer is not that much --
6 MR. WAESPI: Maybe I wasn't following it as closely as I should
7 have. I apologise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, and then the next question, let me
9 first read it on my screen so that I know what the objection might be
11 One second, please.
12 MR. WAESPI: I can rephrase it, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you rephrase it then we will see whether
14 Mr. Misetic still has an objection.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Mr. Roberts, were you aware that the Croatian authorities were
18 collecting information about your performance as a UN spokesperson
19 post-Operation Storm?
20 A. It had been drawn to my attention by UN security, as well as
21 other UN officials had had contacts with the Croatian officials were also
22 cautioned by those who would assist those things, like UN security, that
23 this was more than likely and to take that into account. I'm seeing
24 here, if I may, this reference in the centre, for what it's worth, if
25 that is good official information, this is not true at all, and we have
1 responded to this in those days gone by during the mandate.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Roberts.
3 MR. WAESPI: I'd like to tender this document, Mr. President.
4 MR. MISETIC: I was going to bar table it so we have no
5 objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. WAESPI: [Overlapping speakers] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we strike it from the list of the bar table
9 documents and have a number assigned to it.
10 Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P694.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P694 is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any further questions.
16 MR. MISETIC: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Just briefly, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Further cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
21 Q. Mr. Roberts, there was a question and answer series on the issue
22 of UN CIVPOL and what was given to whom and when in various
23 circumstances. I'm only concerned in this particular circumstance and
24 that is the incident at Grubori. You did not give the licence plates to
25 the Croatian police. That's already been established. You said that
1 someone at UN CIVPOL told you that they, UN CIVPOL were in touch with the
2 Croatian police. Who at UN CIVPOL was in touch with the Croatian police
3 regarding these licence plates, when, and what was that person's name at
4 Croatian police?
5 A. I don't know the names of the person at the Croatian police
6 specifically. I understood from UN CIVPOL operations officer on that
7 night that the on-duty operations officer was the person informed as well
8 as the station commander of the station in Knin from the actual UN CIVPOL
9 UN commander in Sector South headquarters.
10 Q. Those are titles. I want names, sir.
11 A. Yes. I don't have them. I don't recall them.
12 Q. And you can't tell me when and with whom at the Croatian police
13 anyone spoke to about providing these license plates that you wrote down.
15 A. I have no information that that was passed on in terms of a
16 photocopy or directly, no, I don't.
17 Q. And you met with either a representative of General Cermak or
18 other people relating to this incident and you did not provide any of
19 those people with those licence plate numbers. Correct?
20 A. When we met with Mr. Dondo, no, I did not give a document of that
21 kind. It was only in the afternoon I recorded the actual license plate
22 numbers the second time we were there.
23 Q. Okay. There is a question about your perceived --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated].
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. The last series of questions in which you were shown the document
2 about the issue of professionalism and/or bias, you currently live in the
3 capital of Republic of Srpska
4 of diversity and ethnic tolerance, is that correct?
5 A. Oh, I wouldn't agree with you at all. I have lived in Banja Luka
6 but also have a range of other locations and friends throughout the whole
7 of the Balkans that I resided and stay with, so your reflection there of
8 that reflecting something on somebody's character, I completely reject.
9 For the record, I think it does not matter where you live in the
10 word. Your principles and your working professionalism stays with you is
11 my personal experience, sir.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Kinis has one or more questions for you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE KINIS: Referring back to your statement, P675, and
18 paragraph 59.
19 Last sentence: We observed the Croatian military had set up
20 check-points just outside the cemetery. It means Gracac cemetery.
21 My question is, was there some other purpose for setting up these
22 check-points or just securing area of entrance of cemetery?
23 A. They told us it was for security and we were also part of the
24 people that we were to -- were controlled in terms of that first visit.
25 We were not allowed through because of that security.
1 JUDGE KINIS: Yes, I understand, but there was some -- some
2 junctions with roads or some other reasons why these check-points were
3 set up in this specific area.
4 A. No. The check-point was at the gate of Gracac cemetery alongside
5 the road. It was not near a road junction. It was to control access
6 into and out of the graveyard in Gracac.
7 JUDGE KINIS: Thank you. And next question is referring to
8 paragraph 76. You mentioned regarding incident of Grubori, and there
9 is -- you mention there was nowhere forests and it is -- based on our
10 previous testimonies, there was some information that shared by witnesses
11 that terrorists fled to forests and -- and ran away from this area.
12 Can you please describe vicinity of this area and besides of it,
13 how far was railway road from this Grubori village?
14 A. The railway road.
15 JUDGE KINIS: Yes.
16 A. Okay, I understand.
17 Grubori would be, as I described, up a steep incline. There were
18 trees around it. The middle area of the valley, if Grubori, if you
19 imagine goes up to the right, is flat and completely clear. We could see
20 the trees in front of Grubori from the other side of the valley where we
21 were at the meeting. I would not say there's a large forest area in the
22 vicinity of Grubori. There are trees or stocks of trees but not a
23 forest, which I think, for me is a distinctly different thing.
24 The railway line from Plavno valley would be the railway line
25 running out from Knin up to Strmica and onwards. I would put it maybe 20
1 kilometres away from the area of Plavno valley.
2 JUDGE KINIS: 20 kilometres.
3 A. Approximately. I can't be dead sure but it was certainly some
4 distance. You wouldn't drive out five minutes and find the railway line.
5 JUDGE KINIS: And last question is referring paragraph 81,
6 regarding Grubori incident as well, you mentioned that we counted about
7 12 that houses that had been burned and been on fire and burned.
8 My question is was these houses close to each other or they were
9 scattered? How could you explain this situation? Yes.
10 A. Houses were very close to each other. They were very small
11 dwellings, I would describe them, close. When we say streets here, very,
12 very narrow to talk down. You couldn't drive cars down any part of
13 Grubori and the houses were quite close together.
14 JUDGE KINIS: But what was your impression, was all houses set on
15 fire intentionally or there was some houses which are incidentally burned
16 down and maybe some other houses would continue to burn afterwards.
17 A. Some of that is speculation, but our view of the people there,
18 including myself obviously, was that they were deliberately set on fire
19 and I think in the report I submitted 29th August, I say about half of
20 the dwellings in Grubori were on fire and burning on the first visit that
22 JUDGE KINIS: Okay. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: One follow-up question on that half. Were these all
24 adjacent dwellings or was it one on fire, one not on fire, one on fire,
25 one -- could you further explain what you meant by half.
1 A. No. It was not maybe seven dwellings all in a row. It was
2 scattered, maybe three small streets different parts of Grubori village
3 were on fire, not all consistent in one area.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
5 This then concludes your evidence, Mr. Roberts. At the beginning
6 you said that you wanted perhaps to add something if there is anything
7 that you're not able to say any earlier, I'm not expecting long speeches,
8 but if there's some vital issue you would say, I wanted to say that at
9 that moment and I didn't get the opportunity, so ...
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Yes, just to say in regard to the cross-examination by the
12 advocate for General Cermak in the first morning, there was discussion
13 about the first meeting with General Cermak, the 7th of August or the 8th
14 and I was shown a UN summary of the meeting. It was suggested, I think
15 is the right word, is what I said in my report of the focus of that
16 meeting was not what is reflected in that meeting.
17 I, from memory, would like the Chamber to look at the 8th of
18 August sitrep of the Sector South commander, item B, top page, which
19 begins, from memory: I had another meeting today with General Cermak and
20 says the issues discussed principally were freedom of movement, security,
21 et cetera. That's for --
22 JUDGE ORIE: So you would like to draw our attention to that
23 document. Is that a document which in evidence? Yes, it is. I think
24 I've -- I've heard those lines, not through memory, but by reading them.
25 Thank you for that. Anything else, Mr. Roberts.
1 THE WITNESS: And just also to submit, if I can, this file was
2 given me on the issue, I think or -- forgive me if I can't say this
3 word --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: But I think it was presented in terms of my being
6 seen as extremely biased.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you don't have to worry about that.
8 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not, but I would like just to say that I
9 was invited to say whether there's anything in here that I have said in
10 terms of giving one comment of a critical kind of human rights violations
11 in Sector South. Right.
12 I have gone through every single article here. I did not, in any
13 of these articles presented me in this file, say ever that there was a
14 critical issue on human rights. I have gone through this file and looked
15 at every single article before the 4th of August, 1995, and after them.
16 And I have tabled here a memorandum of my --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's perhaps by mistake this you told us
18 earlier and then the parties would look at it and I did not take any
19 action any further on that.
20 Mr. Waespi.
21 MR. WAESPI: Yes. We briefly discussed it. I think my colleague
22 has a copy, I don't have one. But we can make a bar table submission
23 which explains the witness's comments about that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. at the same time the witness asked whether he
25 could add anything orally to what he put on paper. I leave it to the
1 parties whether they want to tender the --
2 MR. MISETIC: My position is essentially I agree with what Mr.
3 Roberts has just said. My question was focussed on whether there was any
4 such comment concerning human rights before the 4th of August. He has
5 confirmed that there is no such comment. However, he wants to and he was
6 presented a breakdown of what topics he was discussing at that time. If
7 the Prosecution and Mr. Roberts wish to tender that, that's fine.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So you say it is not a direct answer to your
9 question, the answer has been given by now.
10 MR. MISETIC: He has given it orally now, but if there's a need
11 for the Court or for the Prosecution to tender an analysis of what he was
12 talking about, that is it fine, I have no objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Roberts, the only issue is your comments as
14 published on human rights issues. That's what was the question was
15 about, if would you like to add something to that, because I do
16 understand that in your memo that -- it's mainly what subjects were
17 covered and not any further comments on the human rights issues. Then
18 have you an opportunity to do, but very briefly.
19 THE WITNESS: Very briefly that having reviewed this in my memo
20 which you have, besides myself there were other senior United Nations
21 officials commented on all these issues here and as well as after the 4th
22 of August 1995 and before and not one of them also with the opportunity
23 of a journalist raised the issue of human rights in Sector South, Sector
24 North also.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say you were in good company.
1 THE WITNESS: I would say that it was not necessary.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then you still owe me one answer to one
3 question I asked you to consider. It is about the freedom of movement of
4 journalists after the 4th of August, 1995. Do you remember that?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
6 After the 4th of August 1995 the situation was very different
7 from before. There were restrictions on some journalists going to
8 sensitive places to report by mainly a mixture the Croatian police
9 military and special police units and so on, but they were getting out
10 more and more, especially in the company of UN personnel in UN vehicles,
11 as you pushed the window on freedom of movement, they could see for
12 themselves and reported freely what their observations were and I think
13 there's good evidence to suggest a broad range view that -- of the
14 activities and operations taking place, but yes, it was much better
15 freedom of movement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
17 This then concludes your testimony in this Court, Mr. Roberts. I
18 would like to thank you very much for having answered the questions that
19 were put to you by the parties and the Bench. We even got for free some
20 advice with it, but that is not something I would specifically thank you
21 for, although I appreciate your good intentions.
22 We wish you a safe trip home again.
23 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We stand adjourned, and I got it from Mr. Registrar.
25 Thank you.
1 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, the 24th of July,
2 quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom I.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.
4 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of July,
5 2008, at 2.15 p.m.