1 Thursday, 24 July 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
9 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T, the
10 Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Mr. Russo, you're on your feet. May I take it that you will call
13 the next witness?
14 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if the witness is still in the witness
16 room, then we could ask Madam Usher not to rush too much so that I can
17 read meanwhile a decision by the Chamber, at least the reasons for a
19 I would like to deliver the reasons, the Chamber's reasons for
20 granting trial-related protective measures for Witness 86. On the 24th
21 of June, 2008, the Prosecution filed a motion requesting that the Chamber
22 order the trial-related protective measures of pseudonym and face and
23 voice distortion for Witness 86.
24 On the 25th of June, the Cermak Defence filed a response in which
25 it did not oppose the request for protective measures. The Cermak
1 Defence observed, however, that in order to prevent the identity of the
2 witness becoming known, it is most likely that the testimony of the
3 witness would be heard entirely in closed session. The following day,
4 the Markac Defence filed its response not opposing the request for
5 protective measures, though disagreeing with the Prosecution's arguments
6 in support of the motion.
7 Also on the 26th of June, 2008, the Gotovina Defence stated in
8 court that it did not oppose the motion but similarly disagreed with the
9 Prosecution arguments in support of the motion. The Gotovina Defence
10 joined the observation of the Cermak Defence on the need to hear the
11 testimony of the witness in closed session. These submissions of the
12 Gotovina Defence can be found at transcript pages 5225 and 5226.
13 At transcript page 5226, the Prosecution agreed with the Defence
14 on the need to hear the testimony of Witness 86 in closed session.
15 On the same day, the Chamber granted the motion and decided that
16 in order to protect the identity of the witness it would hear the
17 testimony of the witness in private session unless a party applied for a
18 portion to be heard in public session. This decision can be found at
19 transcript pages 5227 and 5228. The public was informed of this decision
20 at transcript pages 5230 and 5231.
21 The Chamber held in its reasons for its first protective measures
22 decision in this case, which can be found on the pages 2610 and 2611,
23 that the party seeking protective measures for a witness must demonstrate
24 an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare of the witness or
25 the witness's family should it become known that the witness has given
1 evidence before the Tribunal. This standard can be satisfied by showing,
2 for example, that a threat was made against the witness or the witness's
3 family. The mere expression of fears by a person is insufficient to
4 justify protective measures.
5 Witness 86 is a Serb who lives in Croatia. Following Operation
6 Storm he continued his professional activities in Croatia. The Chamber
7 found that the expected testimony of Witness 86 could antagonise certain
8 persons in the place where he lives and works. The witness had already
9 experienced, apparently as a result of media attention, that unidentified
10 individuals attempted to contact him. In the absence of any objections
11 raised by the Defence, the Chamber found, for the aforementioned reasons,
12 that the Prosecution has demonstrated an objectively grounded risk to the
13 security of Witness 86 should it become known that he has given evidence
14 before the Tribunal.
15 The Chamber furthermore considered that in light of the nature of
16 the anticipated evidence of the witness, the only effective way to
17 protect his identity was to hear his testimony in private session.
18 And this concludes the Chamber's reasons for its decision to
19 grant protective measures for Witness 86.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 WITNESS: ROLAND DANGERFIELD
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Mr. Dangerfield, at least I assume
23 that you're Mr. Dangerfield. Before you give evidence in this court, the
24 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
25 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
1 truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I would
2 like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
4 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dangerfield. Please be seated.
6 You will first be examined by Mr. Russo, who is counsel for the
8 Mr. Russo, please proceed.
9 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon Your
11 Examination by Mr. Russo:
12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dangerfield. If you could please state your
13 full name for the record.
14 A. My full name is Mr. Roland Charles David Dangerfield.
15 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, do you recall giving two statements to the ICTY,
16 one dated the 21st of December, 1995, and the other dated 8 to 9 January
18 A. I do.
19 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5263.
20 Q. And Mr. Dangerfield, if I could direct you to the screen in front
21 you. On the right-hand side, and I would ask Mr. Registrar to scroll,
22 please, to the final page of that exhibit.
23 Mr. Dangerfield, do you recognise this as the statement you gave
24 the ICTY on 21 December 1995
25 A. I do.
1 MR. RUSSO: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter
2 5264. And again if we could scroll -- actually, I believe it will be to
3 the third page of this particular exhibit.
4 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, do you recognise this as the statement that you
5 gave the ICTY on 8 to 9 January 2008?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Now, did you have a chance to review both of those statements
8 prior to coming to court today?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And are both of those statements true and accurate to the best of
11 your knowledge?
12 A. Yes, they are.
13 Q. And do both of those statements accurately reflect what you told
14 ICTY investigators?
15 A. Yes, they do.
16 Q. And if you were asked the same questions in court here today,
17 would your answers be the same as in those two statements?
18 A. Yes, they would be.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this time I move for the admission of
21 65 ters 5263 and 5264.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Mr. Registrar.
23 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, 65 ter 5263 becomes Exhibit number P695,
24 and 65 ter 5264 becomes Exhibit number P696.
25 JUDGE ORIE: P695 and P696 are admitted into evidence.
1 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President, and if I could have the
2 assistance of Madam Usher, would like to hand hard copies of the
3 statements to the witness.
4 And with the Court's permission, Your Honour, I'd like to read a
5 brief summary of the 92 ter statements.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 MR. RUSSO: Thank you. Roland Dangerfield was a sector liaison
8 officer for the British contingent of the UNPROFOR mission and was based
9 in Knin. Prior to Operation Storm, he travelled throughout Sector South
10 to gather intelligence on HV and ARSK operations for Sector South
11 commander General Forand. He observed that after an ARSK mobilisation on
12 27 July 1995
13 age and that there were no defensive positions or heavy weapons in the
14 town. He was present in Knin during the artillery attacks on 4 and 5
15 August 1995, and observed the shelling the town approximately once an
16 hour from the balcony of the UN HQ building.
17 He heard rockets and heavy artillery fired into the town to begin
18 attack on the morning of both days, which he described as intense and
19 lasting for approximately an hour and a half on 4 August and half an hour
20 on 5 August. He observed that after the initial salvo on each morning
21 the shelling became sporadic and consisted only of heavy artillery. He
22 also observed that no one area or military target ever appeared to be
23 targeted by more than three or four rounds, and he described the
24 artillery attack in general as a blanket shelling of Knin. He neither
25 heard nor saw any outgoing fire from the town of Knin on the 4th or 5th
1 of August, 1995.
2 After Operation Storm, he witnessed HV soldiers looting houses in
3 Knin while the police did nothing to stop it, but that houses marked with
4 the phrase "Croatian house," in B/C/S were left alone.
5 He travelled to Kistanje on 9 August 1995 where he found the town
6 empty of civilians but houses burning and HV soldiers looting. He also
7 travelled extensively throughout Sector South during August and September
8 1995 and recalled seeing Croatian special police preventing access to
9 areas that were burning, and he estimated that approximately 80 to 90 per
10 cent of the villages he saw suffered burning within the first few weeks
11 after Operation Storm.
12 Mr. President, Your Honours, that concludes my summary.
13 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, can you please tell the Court what your position
14 and function was in Sector South in and around August of 1995.
15 A. Yes. In August 1995, I had been tasked by the British
16 headquarters in Gornji Vakuf in Sector South-west to move to Knin, the
17 headquarters of Sector South, to act as a liaison officer, and this was
18 largely because there was a lack of information between the two sectors
19 and it's customary on operations for sides to exchange liaison officers
20 to establish what is going along -- on along the boundary between the two
22 Q. And can you tell the Court how far in advance of Operation Storm
23 you began doing this?
24 A. I was there approximately six weeks to two months before
25 Operation Storm began.
1 Q. And can you give the court some idea of how much ground you
2 covered in Sector South during that time?
3 A. Within Sector South I knew all the major routes. I travelled
4 extensively with my driver off the main routes where there were
5 barricades restricting my freedom of movement. I made sure it's my job
6 to get round them and establish what was going on. And in short, I knew
7 Sector South extremely well.
8 Q. And did that include both the ARSK and the HV side of Sector
10 A. I made in my job to be on both sides of the border, because that
11 was my job to establish what was going on on both the HV and the ARSK
13 Q. And you've mentioned roadblocks or restrictions on your movement.
14 Can you give the court some idea of who restricted your movement and how?
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speakers please pause between question
16 and answer. Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: Could you just repeat the question, please.
18 MR. RUSSO:
19 Q. Sure. You indicated in your previous answer that if there were
20 roadblocks in your way you would try your best to get around them. I
21 would like you to give the Court an idea for what kind of restrictions on
22 your movement you faced.
23 A. Both sides, the HV and ARSK, typically put roadblocks up. This
24 was barriers, rubble, sand, anything to restrict the movement across the
25 roads. These were normally manned, and I was physically stopped from
1 going through various areas, and that was by both sides.
2 Q. And concentrating now just on the ARSK side of Sector South, can
3 you give the Court any idea of where in general your movement was
5 A. My movement was restricted particularly along the sensitive
6 border areas. Within the actual centre of the sector it was not too bad.
7 On occasion it was difficult, and on one occasion I was detained for two
8 hours along with my driver, but I was released without any further
9 action. So it was really restricted just along the sensitive border
10 areas between the two warring factions.
11 Q. And did the ARSK also restrict your movement to inspect or
12 observe ammunition or weapon sites?
13 A. The military and weapon sites were particularly sensitive, and
14 therefore invariably I was not allowed to enter, and if at all possible,
15 I was restricted from getting close to these sites.
16 Q. Thank you. And in spite of these restrictions, were you
17 nevertheless able to get an impression for the relative capabilities of
18 both the HV and the ARSK?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. If you can, please, can you tell the Court what your impression
21 was of the capability of the ARSK to withstand an operation such as
22 Operation Storm?
23 A. When I travelled around Sector South, I was always surprised, I
24 think it fair to say, how little heavy weaponry the ARSK had. Yes, they
25 had tanks. Yes, they had artillery pieces. But I commanded a squadron
1 of 12 Challenger tanks and I never in my whole travels around Sector
2 South saw a collection of that many tanks in anyplace. So my assessment
3 of the ARSK was they were woefully equipped to deal with any assault on
5 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to move to a discussion of the
6 situation in Knin in particular prior to Operation Storm, and if I could
7 refer you to your first statement, that's the first tab you have there,
8 your first statement at paragraph 23. And this is -- appears in e-court
9 on the English on page 6, the B/C/S on page 4.
10 Again at paragraph 23, you indicate that after the ARSK
11 mobilisation on 27 July 1995
12 men of combat age.
13 Can you please explain to the Court how it is you knew that?
14 A. Yes. In the six weeks to two months that I had been in Sector
15 South and particularly in the Knin area, Knin was a busy town of its
16 size, a lot of civilians, and indeed a largely -- no, that would be
17 incorrect. A large amount of soldiers of combat age. And this was
18 particularly on the day of rotation. Now, I can't specifically remember
19 which day the rotation took place, but there was always a large number of
20 soldiers in and around the bars and cafes of Knin. And this was
21 apparent, because there seemed to be -- seemed to me to be far more
22 military people than civilians within the town.
23 Q. And after the mobilisation on the 27th of July?
24 A. After the mobilisation on the 27th of July there were very few
25 soldiers. In fact, I would take it down to a handful. And when I drove
1 around Knin extensively to see what was left after the mobilisation,
2 particularly around the military sites, I could put it down to possibly
3 less than a hundred soldiers.
4 Q. Thank you. And moving to paragraph 15 of that same statement and
5 in e-court the English this appears from pages 4 to 5, and in B/C/S it's
6 on page 4.
7 Now, Mr. Dangerfield, at paragraph 15 you indicate that on 29
8 July, civilians in Knin were packing up and leaving on buses along a
9 route into Bosnia
10 first again how you knew that and what exactly the information was you
12 A. Yes. Within Knin town itself there appeared to be a large amount
13 of the civilian population packing up, and they were leaving their houses
14 carrying suitcases, plastic bags, and in fact I would describe it as
15 their worldly possessions, and it was clear that they were leaving the
17 Q. And in that paragraph you reference a very specific route by
18 which they left on buses. Can you tell the Court how you know that they
19 took that route?
20 A. I was fascinated that so many people were leaving the area, and I
21 made it my business to follow them and establish exactly what it was that
22 they were doing, and so those buses I followed on the route that I
23 described in my statement, and that is accompanied by specific grid
24 references detailing that route.
25 Q. And can you give the Court any idea of whether this appeared to
1 be officially organised or conducted according to some plan?
2 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, Your Honour. With all due respect, that's
3 if he knows and no speculation, please. If he doesn't know, he doesn't
4 know. If he has information -- concrete information and not speculation,
5 that's a different matter.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo asked whether on its appearance the
7 witness gained the impression that this was officially organised or --
8 organised or conducted according to a plan.
9 And, Mr. Dangerfield, therefore you're invited to first describe
10 your observations, and if that on the basis of that information you
11 formed any opinion about it at the time - I'm not inviting you at this
12 moment to develop further opinions on it - you may tell us, but please
13 first describe what you observed.
14 THE WITNESS: My observations were that the transport that the
15 civilian population was getting into ranged from at one end the buses and
16 trucks. In the middle of that ranged cars and any other such vehicles,
17 and at the bottom end it would have been trailers towed by horses,
18 donkeys, mules. And those were my specific observations. There was no
19 marshalling areas for an exodus of the population.
20 MR. RUSSO:
21 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Dangerfield, did you see any ARSK military
22 or police officials involved in this movement of people?
23 MR. KEHOE: I assume, by just time-frame, I assume we're talking
24 about the 27th of July.
25 MR. RUSSO: Actually, we're talking about the 29th of July.
1 MR. KEHOE: 29th of July. So be it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was clear from the previous questions
3 and, Mr. Kehoe, therefore, I think there was no need at this moment to
4 intervene. Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE: With all due respect, Judge, with a record that will
6 be reviewed down the line, I just wanted to get a specificity on the
7 date. I apologise for any inconvenience and I just wanted verify that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's for the second time, now, that you now
9 intervene between question and answer and that's, of course, what is
10 certainly allowed to do if there is any need to do that but otherwise it
11 might interrupt the flow of evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, I'd like to move now to the events of 4 August
15 1995, and if you could please describe for the court what you personally
16 saw and heard of the artillery attack on that day.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, are you interested in receiving an answer
18 on the question you put to the witness before Mr. Kehoe intervened?
19 MR. RUSSO: I apologise, Your Honour, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you don't have to apologise. You are
21 putting the question. I take it that you are interested, as is the
22 Chamber, to hear the answer.
23 Perhaps you now repeat the question.
24 MR. RUSSO: Certainly, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, again confining yourself to what you personally
1 observed and within the time-frame of 29 July 1995, can you please tell
2 the Court whether you saw any RSK military or police officers involved in
3 the movement of people out of Knin.
4 A. I saw no official police or ARSK soldiers involved in that
6 Q. Thank you. So now we'll move to the 4th of August, and again
7 I'll ask you to please describe for the Court what you saw and heard of
8 the shelling on that day.
9 A. It was just before 5.00 in the morning, and I was up and about in
10 the headquarters of Sector South. I was getting ready for the day's
11 work, and shortly before 5.00 there was an incredible noise over and
12 around the top of the UN headquarters. It was a massive noise. It
13 sounded like a giant sheet of paper being ripped. There was a whoosh, a
14 whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, and this initially I did not know what it was.
15 However, it became very apparent quickly that we or the surrounding area
16 was receiving a lost incoming rocket fire, and this was then accompanied
17 by artillery fire, and the difference between the two is that the
18 artillery shells have a whistling sound as they come in.
19 At that stage, as you would understand, I was in an unprotected
20 building. I decided that I'd had enough and along with my driver we
21 grabbed all of our equipment and ran for the bunker.
22 Now, the bunker is a bunker. It is not a soundproof building.
23 And that fire of rockets and artillery continued approximately for the
24 next 90 minutes continuously.
25 Q. And can you describe for the Court what you witnessed when you
1 emerged from this bunker and approximately at what time you actually came
2 out of the bunker?
3 A. From my recollection it was approximately 6.30 a.m. or just
4 after. We came out of the bunker. There was still artillery screaming
5 in but obviously not of the same intensity that it had been for the
6 previous 90 minutes. It was the early morning, and Knin was covered in a
7 blanket of dust and smoke.
8 Q. And if I can -- well --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. RUSSO:
11 Q. First let me ask you, after you emerged from the bunker did you
12 at any time observe the town of Knin
13 A. Initially, it was very difficult to see where the shells were
14 falling because of this blanket of smoke, and the UN headquarters, when
15 you stand on the balcony there, was roughly at the same level as the
16 smoke. So you could tell that it was the top. But the climatic factors
17 prevailed. It was the summer, and as the temperature rose, so the ground
18 heated up and the smoke -- the smoke dissipated, the dust settled, and
19 from I, would put it, the middle of the morning you could start to see
20 shells landing. You could continually hear them screaming into the town,
21 and so you had -- or certainly I had a better idea of where they were
23 Q. Thank you. And let me refer you now to paragraph 30 of your
24 first statement, and in e-court in the English that is page 7 to 8, and
25 in B/C/S pages 5 to 6.
1 Mr. Dangerfield, in paragraph 30 you indicate some areas where
2 you saw shells landing on that day, and I'll ask you if you recall
3 marking these areas on an aerial photograph of Knin.
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 MR. RUSSO: And, Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter
7 Q. And if I may, I will simply walk you through some of these making
8 reference to paragraph 30.
9 In that paragraph you indicate that you saw shells landing in
10 residential areas north of the Pol station, and I'll ask you if those
11 areas are the two which you had marked as A on this picture.
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Thank you. You also mention you saw shells landing in the
14 vicinity of the railway station, and I will ask you if that corresponds
15 to the circle marked as B.
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. Again you indicate shells fell near an ammo bunker 200 metres
18 west of the UNHQ compound, and I'll ask you if that is the circle marked
19 as C.
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Again the parliament building, and I will ask you if that is the
22 area marked as D.
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. The area you indicate where shells fell around the base of the
25 Knin castle, is that the area which you have marked as E?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. And the helipad or football pitch, is that the area marked as F?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And finally the Pol station, is that the area marked as G?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. And to be clear, Mr. Dangerfield, are all of these areas where
7 you personally observed shells landing?
8 A. Yes, they are.
9 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this time I would move for admission
10 of 65 ter 5355.
11 MR. KEHOE: Well, I object, Judge. This -- apparently, there was
12 a map that was submitted that is attached for the 21 December 1995 that I
13 note here is referred to in paragraph 35, and then I note that this map
14 is one of -- that was done here in 2008 to 22nd of July, 2008. I am
15 frankly more interested in the one that was done 13 years ago. That's
16 set forth in paragraph 35 as opposed to one that was done this week.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what was done when we do not know. We see
18 that a date appears for the name of the witness, and the date is located
19 this year.
20 Mr. Russo, could you either, without giving evidence yourself,
21 inform the Chamber, or could you clarify the issue together with the
23 MR. RUSSO: Certainly, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, could you please tell the Court when it was that
25 you marked this particular photograph?
1 A. I marked this particular photograph on the date that I had
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. RUSSO: Mr. President, I can tell you we did receive a
5 question from the Defence regarding the map which was originally attached
6 to the statement. We indicated to the Defence that that map could not be
7 found despite our efforts to locate it, which was in part the reason why
8 I asked Mr. Dangerfield to again indicate these areas on the aerial
9 photograph of Knin, and on that basis I would again move its admission.
10 JUDGE ORIE: At least it is clear now that where the statement is
11 from quite many years ago that the map was produced this same week.
12 Any objections, Mr. --
13 MR. KEHOE: Your Honours, not to admissibility but just to
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P697.
17 JUDGE ORIE: P697 is admitted into evidence. You may proceed,
18 Mr. Russo.
19 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, if I could refer you to paragraph 26 of your
21 first statement, and the e-court in English, this is at pages 6 to 7 and
22 the B/C/S page 5. And if we could keep this image, please, up here on
23 the screen.
24 Mr. Dangerfield, I'm going to ask you a few questions about the
25 military targets which you identify in paragraph 26, many of which are
1 located next to or near the areas where you indicate you saw shells
2 landing, and specifically looking at the two areas which you have marked
3 as A on Exhibit P697, we can see that those two areas are on opposite
4 sides of the Knin general supply which you have identified in paragraph
5 26 as a military target. One of the areas is directly north of the Pol
6 station, as you also identify in paragraph 26, and the other is directly
7 south of the main Knin army barracks, which you likewise identify as a
8 military target in paragraph 26.
9 I'd like you, if you can, to tell the Court based on what you
10 observed whether the shells you saw landing in those two areas marked as
11 A appear to have been fired at one of the military targets near them.
12 A. Within those areas initially there were a few rounds, but as the
13 day went on, it became apparent to me that there were far too many shells
14 landing in those areas to be dependent on ballistic variations in the
15 rounds and indeed any associated climatic conditions that could cause
16 them to fall there. So it was my assessment that there were indeed too
17 many shells falling into those areas.
18 Q. Thank you. And likewise for the area marked as B, it is clearly
19 adjacent to the railway station in which you also identify as a military
20 target. Does the same situation apply to the area marked as B?
21 A. Yes, it does.
22 Q. And again the area that you mark here as E, around the base of
23 the Knin castle, that is bordered again by things you identify as
24 military targets. Does the same situation apply to the area marked as E?
25 A. I would give the same answer.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, if we could move to paragraph 32 of your
2 statement, and the e-court in English is at page 8, in B/C/S it's page 6.
3 In paragraph 32, Mr. Dangerfield, you indicate that refugees and troops
4 began withdrawing through Knin at approximately 1700 hours and that the
5 shelling at that stage was at a minimum. I would like you please to give
6 the Court some idea of what this minimum was in terms of intensity or
8 A. There had been the initial bombardment for the first 90 minutes
9 of the day from 5.00. As I indicated earlier on, that intensity
10 lessened, and it was sporadic artillery fire throughout the rest of the
11 day. So when I say a minimum, it was that continued intensity. I would
12 suggest, in my opinion, that a minimum is enough to be noticeable.
13 Q. Thank you. And did it appear to you that the troops and military
14 vehicles which you indicate were part of this movement, did it appear to
15 you as though they were guarding the retreat of the civilians who were
16 also retreating?
17 A. The column of military vehicles and personnel and civilian
18 personnel were leaving. There was no indication of any fighting
19 withdrawal. There was no tank barrels pointing in the direction of the
20 suspected HV threat, and that was of the minimal number of tanks that
21 there were. So no -- there was no fighting withdrawal, and to me it was
22 a rapid exodus and almost each for themselves.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, could I seek clarification of one of the
24 previous answers.
25 You said that you would suggest that in your opinion a minimum is
1 enough to be noticeable. Now, that, of course, requires an understanding
2 of what you consider noticeable. If you say one shell an hour can be
3 noticed and in that sense would be noticeable, then even one shell in 24
4 hours would be noticeable. So to be quite honest, I am a bit lost with
5 your answer.
6 THE WITNESS: Two to three rounds per minute, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Russo.
8 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. If we could move briefly to your second statement. I believe
10 that is P696. At paragraph 5 and e-court in English this appears at page
11 2, and likewise in the B/C/S.
12 Mr. Dangerfield, in paragraph 5 there you indicate that at 1900
13 hours, the intensity of the shelling, it decreased significantly, but
14 that there was a heavy volley of shells lasting approximately 15 minutes
15 landing in the town on the night of 4 August. Are you able to tell the
16 Court when, if at all, the shelling actually stopped on that night?
17 A. The shelling did not stop that night.
18 Q. Can you tell the Court what time you went to bed or what time you
19 stopped observing this shelling?
20 A. It was later on in the evening, sometime between the hours of
21 10.00 and 12.00 at night, and it was at that stage that I was going to go
22 to bed. In fact, I was considering not going to the bunker at all. I
23 considered the sporadic shelling that was continuing not to be a threat
24 to the UN headquarters. But at approximately sometime between those two
25 hours that intensity kicked up again, definitely with artillery shells
1 and a few rockets, and it was at that stage that myself and my driver
2 headed for the bunker.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, on the 4th of August, Mr. Dangerfield, were you
4 sending reports on what was happening in Knin to the British G2 cell?
5 A. I could not for the first hour and a half because I was in the
6 bunker, but once we came out at approximately 6.30 in the morning we were
7 able to gather what reports there were from the various national
8 battalions within the sector, and equipped with my satellite telephone I
9 was able to file reports through to the British headquarters in Gornji
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 446.
13 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, do you recognise this document as one of the
14 reports you prepared on 4 August?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And I believe you've already touched on it a bit, but can you
17 just give the Court an idea of where the information for this report
18 comes from?
19 A. This is the overview document, and therefore it is a summary
20 constructed by me from the various reports that we received from the
21 national battalions within the area known as Sector South.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, on your exhibit list, under 446 we find
23 different ERN numbers than the ones we find on this document. I'm not
24 trying to make matters even more complex, because the numbers indicated
25 there are following the numbers. If we look at the statements,
1 apparently they have been either attached or having been very close to
2 that, and now we have different numbers. I don't know whether there's --
3 is there any explanation for or is it just to be ignored? If so, you
4 would be invited next time to give the ERN numbers you're using in court
5 on your exhibits list.
6 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. I'll certainly take your guidance
7 on that. I can tell the Court that this particular document arrived in
8 our office through several means. One, as you can tell, from General
9 Andrew Leslie, which is why the AL5 appears at the top. It was attached
10 to one of his statements. It also came to our office separately on its
11 own and once again it was attached to the supplemental witness statement
12 of Mr. Dangerfield, and each time it came in it received a different
13 electronic reference number.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I just hope that we have the right ERN
15 numbers in the e-court version so that we're using the same here in court
16 as -- because I do not know whether you uploaded the others ones or --
17 apparently, you uploaded this one but perhaps the others ones as well.
18 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. This one was the first -- uploaded
19 the first we received that's why it made it on to the 65 ter list first,
20 and I thought it would be, perhaps, duplicative to re-upload it as part
21 of the supplemental statement. So simply I kept this one where it was
22 and removed it from the supplemental statement when that was uploaded
23 into e-court.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, of course, it remains a puzzle how the other
25 number came to appear on your 65 ter list but let's forget about it.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. RUSSO: Is there any objection to the admission of the
4 MR. KEHOE: No objection, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P698.
7 JUDGE ORIE: P698 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, moving now to the 5th of August, I would ask you
10 again to very briefly explain for the Court your observations of the
11 artillery attack on that day.
12 A. The artillery attack on the 5th of August started just again
13 before 5.00 in the morning, and the initial intensity was of a similar
14 level to that on the 4th of August. And that continued for approximately
15 30 minutes.
16 Q. And where were you during this initial half an hour?
17 A. I -- I was again in the bunker.
18 Q. And can you tell the Court what you did after you came out of the
20 A. It was a similar process to the previous day. I made it my
21 business to find out what was going on again throughout the area known as
22 Sector South to establish exactly what the HV movement was and indeed any
23 ARSK movement. And I filed my report through to the British headquarters
24 as I had done on the previous day.
25 Q. Thank you. Referring back to paragraph 30 of your first
1 statement, you indicate, I'll quote: "On both the morning of 04 and 05
2 August, there was so much artillery fire it could not possibly have been
3 directed because there was so many shells and rockets landing in such a
4 short time."
5 If you're able I'd like you to explain to the Court exactly why
6 you believe that the number of shells landing in a given area would have
7 an impact on the ability to direct fire?
8 A. As I explained there was a blanket of dust and smoke across Knin
9 in those early hours, and that blanket was sufficient that even from our
10 close vantage point you could not see exactly where those rounds were
12 Now, in order to adjust the fire and give it accuracy, you must
13 see where it is landing, make your adjustments, and continue. And
14 therefore, the weight and intensity of that fire almost prohibited these
16 Q. Thank you. Moving now to paragraph 33 of that statement, and
17 this appears in e-court at page 9 in the English and page 6 in the B/C/S.
18 You indicate, and I'll quote again: "From 10.45 hours you could hear the
19 odd tank round and many small arms rounds being fired. There was no
20 artillery, and I could neither hear or see any resistance."
21 Can you please clarify for the Court whether this tank and
22 small-arms fire that you heard was coming from inside Knin?
23 A. The small-arms fire and tank fire was not coming from inside
24 Knin. Indeed, throughout the entire time I was there I never saw or
25 heard any fire going out from Knin.
1 Q. Can you then tell the Court where the tank and small-arms fire
2 was coming from at that time on the 5th of August?
3 A. From our position in the UN headquarters, judging by the sound, I
4 would say it appeared to come from the area -- the settlement known as
6 Q. And is that to the south of Knin?
7 A. From recollection it's the south-west.
8 Q. Thank you. And the sounds of tank and small-arms fire, did it
9 sound to you like the sounds of combat?
10 A. It did not sound like combat. Indeed there seemed to be no
12 Q. And later in that same paragraph you indicate that the
13 7 Puma Brigade was the first to enter Knin with their tanks and APCs
14 arriving in a convoy, not moving tactically, which led you to believe
15 that they did not expect any resistance, and I'd like you please to
16 explain to the Court why tanks arriving in a convoy would indicate to you
17 that no resistance was expected?
18 A. From my experience of tanks, tanks moving along a road move
19 tactically. It is not a safe area to be going along. They move along
20 leapfrogging each other along the critical points of a road thus clearing
21 the way ahead for troops following.
22 These vehicles moved in a column, people on top of the tanks, in
23 the vehicles, all together in one long column, cheering, and it was
24 perfectly clear they were expecting no ARSK soldier or attack from within
1 Q. Thank you. Moving to the following paragraph. You indicate:
2 "There seemed to be little control once the HV entered Knin. Troops
3 systematically looted house. Small-arms fire and mysterious detonations
4 were heard for at least a week afterwards."
5 Can you tell the Court whether you personally observed these
6 things happening?
7 A. Yes. Obviously I had very little view on that initial day
8 because I was confined to the UN barracks, but on the 7th of August, but
9 more particularly the 9th of August, I was able to get out in my Land
10 Rover with my driver and start patrolling again.
11 There were HV soldiers in large numbers within Knin, and it was
12 clear that there was little or no control. I saw soldiers going into and
13 out of houses removing various electrical items and anything else that
14 they saw fit.
15 Q. If I could please cabin you if you're able to recall
16 specifically, you mentioned the 7th of August. Can you tell the Court,
17 did you get out of the compound and into Knin on the 7th of August?
18 A. Yes. That was a particular day because it was the day that the
19 UN special envoy Yasushi Akashi visited. I believe he landed in -- on
20 the helicopter pad of the UN barracks and part of a long convoy including
21 press. We escorted him to the hospital.
22 Q. And did you stay escorting Mr. Akashi around for the day?
23 A. No, I did not. As soon as we had a chance, on the way back
24 myself and my driver broke away from that convoy and took a look and a
25 patrol around Knin town, and therefore from a first-hand account of
1 myself I was able to see exactly what was going on.
2 Q. And on that day, the 7th of August, what exactly was going on?
3 A. As I described earlier on, that was when the looting was going
4 on. The general lack of discipline and control. It was clear to me that
5 the soldiers were doing what they saw fit.
6 Q. Did you see any officers or commanders present while this was
8 A. No. It was -- it was particularly evident that there were no
9 officers or anyone who appeared to be in a position of authority
10 controlling what was going on.
11 Q. You mentioned earlier that you had gotten away from Mr. Akashi's
12 convoy. And if someone had been off of that convoy, would what you saw
13 have been evident to anyone not following that column?
14 A. Yes. This was completely overt behaviour, and even when we drove
15 past it did not stop, and it seemed to be the normal behaviour throughout
16 the town on that day.
17 Q. Later in that same paragraph you say that: "Trucks pulled up at
18 houses. I witnessed all sorts of electrical items being loaded into cars
19 by soldiers while police did nothing to stop it. This went on for at
20 least two weeks."
21 I'd like you to please clarify for the Court whether this
22 particular sentence refers to events that you witnessed happening in
24 A. As soon as I got an opportunity to patrol out of Knin, I made it
25 my business, as I had done prior to the 4th of August, to patrol
1 throughout Sector South. And on -- or, rather, in those areas that I
2 patrolled, that behaviour seemed to be the pattern throughout the area.
3 Q. And based on your own observations, did this kind of looting
4 continue in Knin for two weeks after Operation Storm?
5 A. Yes. At least two weeks, I would say, and it was throughout
7 Q. The trucks -- trucks and cars being used during this looting, can
8 you tell the Court whether these were military trucks or civilians?
9 A. The vehicles being used were both military and civilian. It
10 appeared to me that whatever vehicle you had, you filled it up with
11 whatever you could get your hands on.
12 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, is there any doubt in your mind as to whether
13 the individuals you saw engaged in this behaviour were in fact HV
15 MR. KEHOE: Objection.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
17 MR. KEHOE: Does he have some background information? That's
18 pure speculation. Has he any doubt? What is replete in this is that
19 people in camouflage uniforms, as the Prosecution well knows the entire
20 place had camouflage uniforms on.
21 JUDGE ORIE: But the question was not whether they were soldiers
22 or not but whether the witness had any doubt on his mind but if it ever
23 came up. That is, of course -- that was the question, but before that
24 question be put to the witness I think we, Mr. Russo, you should go in
25 some detail as to what he described as far as the appearance of the
1 persons he saw taking whatever they wanted. And I think at an earlier
2 stage the witness testified that these were military, but I have to find
3 that and see whether that's correct. At the same time, I remember from
4 his statement that he refers to how people were dressed or sometimes
5 about military and civilians.
6 Could you please, before you ask him whether -- and that is a
7 question of fact, whether ever doubt came to his mind. If you ask me
8 whether I ever doubted some matters, that is just a matter of fact. But
9 before you put that question, of course, it would be good to see what
10 observations created an apparent impression and what circumstances
11 perhaps may have caused any doubt on your mind.
12 MR. KEHOE: And if I may, Judge, what this Court has said over
13 and over again is that the Court and the Chamber wants facts. Not
14 speculation, just facts.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kehoe, I said that the question of whether
16 I ever experienced doubt on my mind is a question of fact. But --
17 MR. KEHOE: I understand your interpretation, Your Honour. I
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Russo, nevertheless you're invited to
20 first explore what the witness observed and what at any time would or
21 would not have created either an impression in his mind or doubt on his
22 mind. Please proceed.
23 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, you indicated at the inception of your testimony
25 that prior to Operation Storm you had had the opportunity to visit both
1 sides, both HV and ARSK sides of the zone of separation. Let me ask you
2 first, while you were on the HV side did you have an opportunity to see
3 what kinds of uniforms the HV soldiers were wearing?
4 A. Yes, I did. I knew the difference between ARSK soldiers and HV
5 soldiers when wearing their uniform.
6 Q. Can you give the Court a description of the typical -- or what HV
7 soldiers' uniforms looked like?
8 A. I'm afraid after 13 years my memory on that is not distinct.
9 Q. Did you at the time, when you were on the HV side of the zone of
10 separation, have an opportunity to see the kinds of trucks and vehicles
11 which were used by the HV army?
12 MR. KEHOE: Well, Your Honour, I -- I object at this point.
13 We're now in 2008 with the witness giving testimony, and he doesn't
14 recall, and to try to bootstrap our way into this by something back in
15 1995, I object. He doesn't recall.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I think the first question what he didn't recall was
17 about how people were dressed, and I think this question is now about
18 trucks and vehicles.
19 MR. KEHOE: Then what I caution the Chamber is that that's the
20 road that the Prosecution is trying to travel on, and I just bring this
21 up as a cautionary measures and we'll see where the questioning goes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Russo.
23 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour.
24 Q. If I could -- do you need me to repeat the question?
25 A. No. I think I can make it a short answer.
1 On those days that I was travelling within Knin and throughout
2 Sector South, when I saw the looting the large numbers of individuals
3 carrying out that looting were wearing HV uniform.
4 Q. Thank you for that. Let me take you back to the previous
5 question. When you were on the HV side of the zone of separation prior
6 to Operation Storm, did you have an opportunity to observe the vehicles
7 that the HV were using?
8 A. Yes, I did, and prior to my deployment to the area part of my
9 training had been specific recognition of the warring factions' vehicles,
10 uniforms, ranks, and insignia.
11 Q. Thank you. And did the vehicles that were used in the looting
12 after Operation Storm, which you indicate in paragraph 34, were used
13 during this looting, were those the same kinds of vehicles you saw on the
14 HV side of the zone separation?
15 A. Yes, they were, and invariably their registration plates had the
16 letters HV, Hotel Victor.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down for interpretation.
18 MR. RUSSO:
19 Q. And I understand that you have difficulty recollecting here and
20 now. I'll ask you, when you made your first statement in December of
21 1995 and indicated that there were soldiers doing certain things, at that
22 time did you have a clear recollection of what, for example, HV soldiers
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 13 of your first statement, in e-court
1 this appears page 4 of English and page 3 of the B/C/S, in paragraph 13,
2 Mr. Dangerfield, you indicate that there were houses that were spared
3 from looting and that these had signs on them. I would like you to
4 please explain that for the Court.
5 A. Yes. In short, those houses had in Serbo-Croat the words
6 "Croatian house," and that was painted on.
7 Q. How did you know that they said "Croatian house"?
8 A. Again I, as the British Army always does, received basic training
9 in the language of the country that we would be visiting.
10 Q. And is your command of the Serbo-Croat language the same today?
11 A. No, it is not.
12 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I don't know if this is an appropriate
13 time for a recess.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We started at a quarter past 2.00. The first
15 session usually takes one hour and a half. So there is still 15 minutes
16 to go.
17 MR. RUSSO: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, you indicate at paragraph 9 of your first
19 statement, this appears in English at pages 3 to 4 and in B/C/S at page
20 3, in paragraph 9 you indicate that the first time you got out of the
21 compound you witnessed the "complete change to Knin." I would like you
22 to please explain to the Court what you meant by that?
23 A. The complete change to Knin applied to the population and the
24 state of the city. As I indicated earlier on, it had been a -- what I
25 would describe as a bustling town for its size. People frequenting the
1 bars and cafes, going about their everyday business.
2 After the 4th and 5th of August, it became clear to me that there
3 were very few civilian personnel remaining within that city. The
4 population had diminished, and indeed when I travelled around the city I
5 saw evidence of the considerable bombardment that that city had received.
6 Q. Can I take that last sentence of your answer -- well, let me just
7 ask you. Did you observe shelling damage in Knin?
8 A. Yes, I did, and it was clear that it was fresh shelling damage,
9 and again we had received training in identifying from which directions
10 mortars and shells, by their distinctive patterns had come. It was also
11 clear to me that the buildings in the areas that I described and
12 highlighted on the map had also been hit.
13 Q. And are you referring to the areas which you circled on the
14 aerial photograph?
15 A. I am indeed.
16 Q. And can you tell the Court whether the damage that you saw from
17 shelling was concentrated or confined to any particular areas of the
19 A. It was throughout the town.
20 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to discuss your observations of what
21 happened outside of Knin in the weeks following Operation Storm.
22 In paragraph 10 of your first statement, and in e-court that is
23 page 4 in English and page 3 in B/C/S, in paragraph 10, Mr. Dangerfield,
24 you indicate that on 9 August, which was the first time that you had a
25 patrol, you visited the town of Kistanje
1 the Court what it was you witnessed happening in that town.
2 A. I remember it well. When we drove into the outskirts of Kistanje
3 it was clear to me that there were a lot of individuals dressed in
4 Croatian military uniform. The atmosphere was tense. My appearance in
5 the Land Rover that I was travelling was clearly unwanted.
6 The other thing that was particularly noticeable to me, that
7 there seemed to be a lack of artillery or indeed fire from tanks. There
8 was -- i.e., there was no damage to the buildings from that sort of
9 thing, and that was recognisable.
10 What was clear was that the vast majority of Kistanje was on
11 fire. Soldiers were there doing looting, celebratory fire into the air,
12 and indeed there was -- appeared to be a complete lack of control of what
13 was going on in Kistanje.
14 Q. And can you give the Court some idea of approximately how many
15 Croatian soldiers you saw in the town?
16 A. From my judgement it was company strength. So I think we would
17 be looking at approximately 150 to 200 soldiers.
18 Q. And again were you able to distinguish any officers or commanders
19 in that town?
20 A. No. It was the same story as it had been throughout the rest of
21 the sector on my patrols. There just seemed to be an apparent lack of
22 control over what was going on.
23 Q. Were there any civilians present in Kistanje on that day?
24 A. On that day I saw no civilians.
25 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, did you travel to other towns and villages
1 within Sector South in the weeks following Operation Storm?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And again if you could give the Court some idea of the amount of
4 ground you covered within Sector South in those weeks?
5 A. Within those weeks, as I had done prior to the 4th and 5th of
6 August, I travelled extensively throughout Sector South. Indeed, I
7 remember surviving on six hours sleep a night, travelling and patrolling
8 for at least another 14 hours throughout the day, and with the remaining
9 time I had I was writing and filing my reports.
10 Q. And in your second statement, which I believe is P696, at
11 paragraph 7 -- this is e-court English page 2, as well as the B/C/S. In
12 that paragraph, Mr. Dangerfield, you estimate that 80 per cent to 90 per
13 cent of the villages that you saw in Sector South in the weeks after
14 Operation Storm suffered some form of burning.
15 Can you tell the Court whether that estimate is based on your
16 personal observations?
17 A. It is indeed, and that percentage I would describe as extremely
18 accurate, and it appeared that the majority of the sector was on fire.
19 Q. In the next paragraph on -- in that statement you indicate that
20 you personally observed HV soldiers standing around in towns and villages
21 where houses and crops were burning. Can you give the Court any idea of
22 how often you saw this type of thing?
23 A. This was a daily occurrence. In fact, one almost became blase
24 about it. You travelled around the area and it was just a familiar
25 picture and sight on every day. On one occasion I visited the village of
1 Cetina and this standard behaviour of looting and burning was going on.
2 In fact, for a while my presence was not noticed, and indeed a truckload
3 of soldiers drove into the village all firing their weapons into the air.
4 When our presence was noticed, we were detained. Momentarily
5 admittedly. Identification was checked, and I would say it was for no
6 longer than five or ten minutes, but nevertheless we were detained, and
7 after some discussion we were escorted from the sector and indeed made it
8 our business to find a route back into the sector to continue with our
9 routine patrols.
10 Q. When you say escorted out of the sector, does that mean out of
11 Sector South entirely?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. And staying in that same paragraph, Mr. Dangerfield, you indicate
14 that Croatian special police prevented access to areas that were burning.
15 And I'd like you to please tell the Court whether you were ever
16 personally prevented by the special police from entering areas that were
18 A. Yes, I was.
19 Q. And at the time did you know what a special police officer was,
20 and can you tell the Court how you knew that?
21 A. Yes. I had received the training prior to deployment, and we
22 knew the order of battle of all the military and what I would describe
23 loosely as paramilitary personnel. Not just on the Croatian side but on
24 the Bosnian side and the Serbian side, and that was standard practice for
25 our training.
1 Q. And, Mr. Dangerfield, do you recall writing an article regarding
2 your experiences during and after Operation Storm?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 MR. RUSSO: Mr. Registrar if we could have 65 ter 5265.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, are you referring to the essay "The Fall
6 of the Republic."
7 MR. RUSSO: I am, Your Honour. I do understand there is an
8 objection to this document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know if whether there's an objection. It's
10 not on the 65 ter list, isn't it? There is first an application to have
11 it on the 65 ter list.
12 MR. RUSSO: I apologise, Your Honour, that is correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against having it added to the 65 ter
14 list which is not yet the same as being admitted into evidence.
15 MR. KEHOE: No, Your Honour. And my objection with regard to
16 this document was not through Major Dangerfield but through another
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but -- first thing first. There's no objection
19 against adding it to the 65 ter list. Mr. Russo, therefore that request
20 is now granted. Please proceed, and if it comes to tendering the
21 document, we'll hear from the Defence whether in relation to this witness
22 there will be any objection. Please proceed.
23 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But at the same time I'm looking at the clock. I
25 don't know how much time you'd still need.
1 MR. RUSSO: I was going to admit this document and complete my
2 examination, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps we'd better finish. Yes, please
4 go ahead.
5 MR. RUSSO:
6 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, looking at the document on the screen, is this
7 the article that you wrote?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And can you tell the Court when it was written?
10 A. Yes. It was constructed from my reports gathered over the
11 period, but I constructed this particular document ten days after the 4th
12 and 5th of August.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, at this time I would move for the
15 admission of 65 ter 5265.
16 JUDGE ORIE: As a contemporaneous document drafted by the
18 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour.
19 MR. KEHOE: No objections, Judge.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit number P699, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P699 is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
25 And thank you, Mr. Dangerfield.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Russo. Since you've got one minute
2 left before the break, I would seek on one point clarification.
3 Mr. Dangerfield, when you were invited to describe the sound of
4 combat, you used the word "retaliation," which in law has a very specific
5 meaning, and I wondered whether in more neutral terms you were referring
6 to what I learn to be return fire.
7 THE WITNESS: That would be correct. I heard no return fire.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll have a break, and we'll resume at
9 ten minutes past 4.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you're standing, so I inform
13 Mr. Dangerfield that you'll now be cross-examined, Mr. Dangerfield, by
14 Mr. Kehoe who is counsel for Mr. Gotovina. Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
15 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dangerfield.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, you noted during the course of your direct
20 examination that you were filing continuous reports over the course of
21 the 4th and the 5th and I suppose thereafter, and we have been presented
22 with your report P697 of the 4th of August, and this is a one --
23 three-page report. Are there others?
24 A. Not in existence.
25 Q. Well, what does that mean, "not in existence"? Where are they?
1 Or what happened to them, better still?
2 A. They would have been filed along and kept for record by my
3 headquarters. When I say "my headquarters," I say the Sector South-west
4 British headquarters.
5 Q. And when you say that they are no longer in existence, what did
6 your British headquarters in Sector South do with a UN document?
7 A. I have no idea. When I say "not in existence," I was
8 referring -- what I actually meant is I have none of them in my
10 Q. So as far as you know, these reports should still be with the UN?
11 A. If that is what they have chosen to do is to keep them, then yes.
12 If they haven't, then no.
13 Q. Well, Mr. Dangerfield, do you know if for a fact your reports
14 were destroyed?
15 A. No, I do not.
16 Q. Well, when you mentioned to us that they were no longer in
17 existence, did someone tell you that they had been destroyed?
18 A. No.
19 Q. No?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, you sent these reports to your headquarters in Gornji Vakuf;
22 is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Now, you also sent them to your British headquarters in Split
25 didn't you?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Now, do they exist at the British headquarters in Split?
3 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
4 Q. Do your reports still exist that you sent to the British
5 headquarters in Split
6 A. That headquarters ceased to exist some time ago.
7 JUDGE ORIE: But if I may ask your attention for the question,
8 which was slightly differently phrased the second round.
9 First Mr. Kehoe asked whether they exist at the British
10 headquarters in Split
11 reports still exist that you sent to the British headquarters in Split
12 which is different because they may be somewhere else but he was now
13 identifying your reports by the ones being sent to Split, so therefore
14 whether those headquarters still do exist is not relevant. It's the
15 existence of the reports sent to that headquarters.
16 THE WITNESS: Thank you for clarifying the question, sir. I
17 don't know whether those reports still exist.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Well, sir, where were the records that were at British
20 headquarters in Split
21 A. I do not know the answer to that.
22 Q. Now, you also sent your records to the Ministry of Defence in
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. Well, did you seen them to London
1 A. No, I did the.
2 Q. So the only two locations you're saying that you went them were
3 to -- were the British headquarters in Gornji Vakuf and the British
4 headquarters in Split
5 A. Yes. And I think it's important to clarify that whilst every
6 report should have gone to the headquarters in Gornji Vakuf, it was on my
7 own decision-making process as to whether they should go to the
8 headquarters in Split
9 gone to the headquarters in Split
10 Q. Who is DLC in your distribution network in P697?
11 A. I believe those letters stand for data link cell.
12 Q. And what is a data link cell?
13 A. I have no idea.
14 Q. You have no idea?
15 A. Yes. I believe that may be part of the headquarters that collate
16 the material that I sent.
17 Q. Sir --
18 A. But apart from that, I cannot be more precise.
19 Q. Sir, you were sending it to Split. You were sending it to Gornji
20 Vakuf, and you're sending it to this DLC, but you don't know what DLC is?
21 A. I know what the letters stand for, but the exact make-up of that
22 particular organisation I don't.
23 Q. Well, sir, when -- when the information was going to DLC, who was
24 on the receiving end of that information?
25 A. I don't know. As a military man, occasionally or more often than
1 not you are given orders, and you carry out those orders to the best of
2 your ability. Sometimes that means that you do things that not all the
3 time you know why, and not always is it the case is it my position to
4 question why. It is my position to do.
5 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, who gave you the order to send these reports to
7 A. It would have been my chief sector liaison officer in the
8 headquarters in Gornji Vakuf.
9 Q. And who was that?
10 A. That would have been Major -- Major May of the Royal Marines.
11 Q. And what is Major May's first name, do you know?
12 A. I don't know his first name, I'm afraid.
13 Q. But he was a Royal Marine?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Were you -- was the recipient of this information on DLC, was
16 that MI6?
17 A. I have no idea.
18 Q. Well, were you working for MI6 at the time?
19 A. As far as I know, no.
20 Q. Well, if you were working for MI6, would you know?
21 A. I don't think so.
22 Q. So what you're saying is when you were operating in the field,
23 you could have been working as a representative or agent of MI6, right?
24 A. Wrong.
25 Q. Well, sir, you just told us that were you working for MI6, and
1 you said, "As far as I know, no." Is that right?
2 A. That's what it says.
3 Q. And then I asked you, "If you were working for MI6, would you
4 know?" And your answer was, "I don't think so."
5 A. That's what it says.
6 Q. Okay, sir. As you moved around the area, you were trying to
7 gather information on HV movements and ARSK movements; is that right?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. And the reason why you were sent by your headquarters in Gornji
10 Vakuf to Knin was to gather yet more information. Isn't that right?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And if I can turn your attention to your reports, and I am
13 referring to your reports now, and I'm talking about P698, and if I may
14 be mistaken I may have these numbers incorrect, Madam Registrar, but I do
15 believe that P698 was the last document that -- that the witness put in,
16 which is The Fall of the Republic of Serb Krajina. I believe -- is
17 that's 697, Your Honour?
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was 699, but correct me when I'm wrong.
19 MR. KEHOE: 699. My apologies.
20 Q. Now, you note that in the beginning of -- this is in paragraph 2
21 of 699, if we could bring that up, "Since May of this year our job had
22 been to monitor the build-up of Croatian forces to the western cell in
23 south-east of the United Nations sector. We also had been monitoring the
24 response to this by the army of the Republic of Serb Krajina."
25 Now, you knew, sir, when you came -- let me withdraw that and
1 backtrack a bit.
2 Before you went to Knin, you knew that the HV troops that were in
3 the Livno Valley
4 didn't you?
5 A. I don't know that.
6 Q. Well, you did receive information about HV movements going up the
7 Livanjsko Polje valley prior to the attack on Grahovo, didn't you?
8 A. To clarify, receiving information, I would have been informed
9 about it, yes.
10 Q. Well, prior to going into Knin you did receive briefings and
11 other items of information in your headquarters in Gornji Vakuf as to
12 what was going on in the Krajina, didn't you?
13 A. I remember receiving a briefing.
14 Q. And that was so you could better understand what was going on
15 when you eventually got to Knin. Isn't that right?
16 A. I think that's fair to say.
17 Q. Now, let us go to an exhibit and if we can do our best to
18 recreate this briefing, and if I may get this number correctly, and that
19 is 1D420015.
20 And, Mr. Dangerfield, this is series of slides that I'd like to
21 take you through.
22 A. Yep.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Dangerfield, these are a series of military operations
24 by the HV forces beginning in the winter of 1994 and culminating in the
25 fall of 1995, and approximately the 11th of October. And if we can go
1 through the next slide. Now, just to orient you on this, as you can see
2 it's the HVO ABiH held territory and of course the other areas of Bosnia
3 and Croatia
4 time there there were attacks on and off on the Bihac pocket by the Serb
5 forces, wasn't there?
6 A. I was not monitoring Bihac, so I can't comment on that.
7 Q. Well, sir, you were in G2 we know from your statement, and G2 is
8 an intelligence gathering component, isn't it?
9 A. I would say information gathering.
10 Q. I'll use your word. It's an information gathering component.
11 And when you were getting your debriefing as to what was going on with
12 the HV, it's fair to say that as part of giving you a view of the
13 terrain, you were told what the situation was in the area in 1994 and
14 1995, weren't you?
15 A. You said I was getting a debriefing. I never received a
16 debriefing. My job was to concentrate on the area known as Sector South.
17 Q. Well, sir, you did receive a briefing, did you not?
18 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be debriefing, briefing apparently is
19 the issue, Mr. Kehoe. I heard something which sounded to me as briefing
20 but is on the transcript as debriefing. I'm referring you to page 46,
21 line 22.
22 MR. KEHOE: Maybe I'll withdraw. Maybe we're talking past each
23 other just a tad, Your Honour, and I'll clear it up.
24 Q. I think you told us you received training in languages. You
25 received training in military. You used training on the warring
1 factions, and you received training on uniforms. Did you also receive
2 training on weapon systems?
3 A. When you say "training on weapon systems," could you clarify
4 exactly what you mean, sir?
5 Q. Were you given information by your headquarters on weapon
7 A. Recognition of weapon systems, yes.
8 Q. You were given training on recognition of weapon systems in
9 addition to the other items of training I just talked about, that being
10 language, uniforms, the warring factions. Isn't that right?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Now, as part of the information you received, let us turn to the
13 next slide. This is Operation Winter '94, 29 November to 24 December,
15 Now, when you received the briefing, you also received
16 information on the deployment of forces both on the HV side, and let me
17 include HV-HVO side, as well as on the Serb side, and in that I mean the
18 RSK side as well as the VRS, right?
19 A. I'd just like to make a comment on these slides. These are not
20 my slides. They are not the slides I would have been briefed with, if
21 indeed I was briefed with slides at that time. Computer technology was
22 not sufficient, nor was the funding within the British Army to produce
23 such material. Therefore, I don't feel that I can comment on the slides
24 that you are producing in front of me.
25 Q. Well, sir, I wish I had the slides or the information that you
1 looked at when you were being briefed, but looking at the slide that is
2 before you and looking at the information that you received by your
3 headquarters in Gornji Vakuf, did they explain to you the operation run
4 by the HV and the HVO under the command of General Gotovina in the winter
5 of '95 and that the area -- excuse me, the winter of '94-'95,
6 apologises -- excuse me, winter '94, or the area in blue was an area that
7 was taken by HV-HVO forces during the time-frame 29 November to 24
8 December 1994?
9 A. I think we had a rough idea of what was described as the zone of
10 separation between the warring factions. What I think is clear is that
11 they did not have sufficient detail, and therefore that is why I was
12 deployed as the sector liaison officer between the sectors known as
13 Sector South and Sector South-west.
14 Q. Well, based on the information that you got at the time and the
15 information that you received subsequently, do you look at this map and
16 recognise that one of the first offensives in this series of offensives
17 that was conducted by General Gotovina was Winter '94, and it took
18 control of this area, as we move up the Dinara that is shaded here in the
19 light blue?
20 A. This was prior to my deployment, so I don't recognise that.
21 Q. Well, sir, you received -- when you got a briefing, you received
22 information about what was going on in the theatre prior to you getting
23 to the theatre, did you not?
24 A. We -- we got a strategic outline.
25 Q. And part of that strategic outline included this military
1 operation by the HV and the HVO in the winter of '94, didn't it?
2 A. I do not recall this specific military operation being briefed.
3 That's not to say I did not be briefed on it or was not briefed on it. I
4 do not recall being briefed on it.
5 Q. Well, were you briefed -- and my apologies, Your Honour if, I'm
6 going too fast. Mr. Dangerfield, sometimes with us speaking the same
7 language we need to just pause a bit.
8 Were you briefed on these military operations in -- of any kind
9 in the winter of 1994?
10 A. I don't believe I was briefed on specific military operations. I
11 believe that I --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I -- Mr. Dangerfield, I now and then switch to
13 other languages, and I have to check whether the translation is -- is
14 where we are. That is what caused for a little bit of a longer pause.
15 Mr. Kehoe, if you apologise for going too fast, ask someone to
16 listen to the French or the B/C/S channel and find out whether they have
17 finished their translation.
18 MR. KEHOE: I will give that task to Mr. Akhavan.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He's trained in languages as well. Yes, I do
20 understand. Please proceed.
21 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And I think the last -- because -- Mr. Kehoe, I have
23 a bit of a problem. You produce on the screen an enormous lot of
24 information, and I think the first thing, and it -- slowly we came to
25 that, is to find out whether the witness was briefed about the operation
1 Winter, and that could be asked even without having a lot of military
2 information on a map which may be known, may be totally unknown to the
3 witness. Therefore, let's go from the broad picture to the details.
4 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. KEHOE:
7 Q. Without talking about a specific operation, Mr. Dangerfield, were
8 you briefed on what was happening up on -- in this area and up on the
9 Dinara in the conflict that took place in the winter of '94? Do you
10 recall that at all?
11 A. No. I wouldn't have been briefed on such a specific operation.
12 I would have been briefed on the rough outline of where the warring
13 factions were, because of course when I deployed to the region, I was not
14 initially deployed into this area. So my first job was doing something
15 else as another sector liaison officer.
16 Q. I understand, sir. Let me briefly go through, then, in your
17 statement, and again I'm looking at P699. I don't know if you have that
18 in front of you, Mr. Dangerfield, but --
19 A. Could you direct me more specifically, please?
20 Q. Yes. That's the one, The Fall of the Republic of Krajina
21 article that you wrote.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. And in the second-to-last paragraph in the second sentence --
24 pardon me, the third sentence, "Since May." Do you see that? "Since May
25 the Croat forces"?
1 A. "Since May of this year our job had been to monitor the build-up
2 of Croatian forces," is that the paragraph?
3 Q. No, sir. It's the one the -- the paragraph beginning "Around the
4 21st of July..."
5 A. Okay. I've got it.
6 Q. Now just go down to the third sentence.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, since -- it notes that since May the Croat forces had been
9 attacking up the Livanjsko Polje valley to the east of the strategically
10 important Dinara Mountains
11 So you did have briefings on the HV movement in the spring of
12 1995, didn't you?
13 A. I -- I didn't have briefings. As I said, I received a briefing,
14 and what I've written here will have been information that I made it my
15 job to find out prior to my deployment.
16 Q. So you did learn that in fact there were HV offensives in the
17 spring of 1995 up on the Dinara. Is that right?
18 A. I think I would have learned that the HV were gaining ground,
20 Q. And let us look again -- and by the way, by this point when you
21 were making it your business to find out what was going on, by this point
22 in your job with G2 you knew that these HV forces were being commanded by
23 General Gotovina, didn't you?
24 JUDGE ORIE: One second. You may answer the question.
25 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I did know that, no, sir.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Well, let us look at these next several slides quickly, and if
3 is -- if we can go back to 1D420015. And if we could go to the third
4 slide in. And I'm -- Mr. Dangerfield, I'm going to show you a couple of
5 slides and then ask you a few questions.
6 If you could go to the next slide. This is a depiction of the
7 map immediately before Jump-1.
8 Can we go to the next slide. If we can just look at that. This
9 is the Jump-1 from 7 April 1995
10 area that was taken in Jump-1.
11 If we go to the next slide. This is Jump-2. Now, this Jump-2,
12 sir, takes place in June 4 to 11 of 1995. Now, in June you knew, sir,
13 that there were attacks by the VRS in Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde, and
14 also additional pressure being put on Bihac; is that right?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. Let us turn to the next slide which is the Jump-2 slide. Now,
17 this is the -- again, sir, these are the operations. When you talk about
18 your Croatian forces since May attacking up the Livanjsko Polje Valley
19 these are the operations that you're generally referring to; isn't that
21 A. I think before I continue it's important to divorce my answer
22 from the slides. I am answering the questions on my information that
23 I've written here. So the information I will give you refers to this: I
24 do not recognise these slides. There is a lot of small information on it
25 which I haven't put there. It's not British. It hasn't been verified by
1 me, so I cannot comment on anything of that.
2 So when I write about something in here, it's a -- more
3 strategic, it's an overview. It's the sort of information that you could
4 read in a newspaper written by a defence correspondent. It is of no more
5 detail than that.
6 Q. Well, when you were providing information to your headquarters in
8 you weren't providing them with information that they could run on --
9 read in the Daily Telegraph, were you?
10 A. That would be correct.
11 Q. It was important for them to know, consistent with what you said
12 in your statement of P699, that your job -- or "Our job had been to
13 monitor the build-up of Croatian forces."
14 A. Just a word on the statements you refer to P699.
15 Q. That is the magazine article, sir.
16 A. Okay. My paperwork is not labelled as such, so could we make
17 sure we clarify exactly which statement it is when we speak about it --
18 Q. Absolutely. And --
19 A. Thank you.
20 Q. -- that's a fair comment, sir. And if at any time,
21 Mr. Dangerfield, you have about what I'm referring to --
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. -- please stop me.
24 A. That's fine.
25 Q. And if I overlook it, I will certainly provide it to you. What I
1 was referring to just then was your article The Fall of the Republic of
2 Serb Krajina, and that's P699. And frankly, when I give the designation
3 P699, it's more for the record than it is for you.
4 My question, if we can go back to that, is that the information
5 that you were providing to your headquarters both in Gornji Vakuf and
6 Split and to this DLC was information that was important for them to
7 understand the Croatian -- the build-up of Croatian forces and the
8 Croatian forces' activities; right?
9 A. I think it's important to note was not just Croatian. It was
10 ARSK and all the warring factions.
11 Q. But talking about this particular operation in the spring -- in
12 June of 1995 and the HV forces in this regard, this is the type of
13 information you would be passing on to your headquarters and to DLC?
14 A. I can't comment on June of 1995. What I can comment on is the
15 information on that particular operation in 1995, but what I can comment
16 on is the information that is in the statements that I have given and any
17 factual information that I got from off the ground.
18 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I was just waiting for my signal to ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kehoe, I earlier asked you to start with
20 the broad picture. Did you ever report about an operation you knew under
21 the name "Jump-2"?
22 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever report on an operation in which
24 apparently combat took place close to the Croatian-Bosnian border between
25 the 4th of June and the 11th of June, 1995?
1 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, what operations did you report on that you refer
5 to in your article in the second to last paragraph of Croatian forces
6 attacking up the Livanjsko Polje valley?
7 A. Okay. That information is information that I will have gained
8 from general knowledge. As I said, the sort of information that you
9 could gain from a newspaper.
10 Q. Did you report on the battle to take -- let me withdraw here,
11 that you note again in your statement 699, that Bosanski --
12 JUDGE ORIE: That's the article again --
13 MR. KEHOE: The article, my apologies, Judge.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- because it confuses the witness.
15 MR. KEHOE: My apologies, Judge.
16 Q. The article again in that same paragraph that: "Bosanski Grahovo
17 was of vital for instance the Serb Krajina as it was their main supply
18 route from the Bosnian Serb stronghold of Banja Luka."
19 If we could turn to the next slide.
20 Now, did you report on the fighting or the attack by the HV and
21 the HVO on Bosanski Grahovo that you refer to in your Article P699?
22 A. I cannot remember specifically. If it's somewhere in any of my
23 statements, could you please direct me to it, please?
24 Q. Well, you talk about it, sir --
25 A. I talk about it in this article. If I have reported it somewhere
1 else, could you direct me to it, please?
2 Q. Unfortunately, sir, I don't have the rest of your reports.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. And that is why I'm asking the question did you report on it. I
5 note in your article P699, in the last two paragraphs you talk about the
6 importance -- the vital importance of Bosanski Grahovo and in the next
7 paragraph, "In the last week of July," and I'm quoting, "In the last week
8 of July the Croat forces moved swiftly and decisively to take the town of
9 Bosanski Grahovo. This was major blow to the Krajina Serbs as it cut off
10 their supply route."
11 Now --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, in your question you said, "Did you" --
13 it says -- "All right. Under fighting or the attack by the HV and the
14 HVO on Bosanski Grahovo that you referred to in your article P699."
15 Now, the witness is asking where in this article he refers to the
16 fighting or the attack by the HV and the HVO on Bosanski Grahovo. Where
17 do we find that?
18 MR. KEHOE: As I was just quoting, Your Honour, it is at the
19 bottom of the first page on P699, and we can bring P699 back up on the
20 screen, and we can see it in that area.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. KEHOE: So it should be the bottom of page 1.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that now clear to you, Mr. Dangerfield?
24 THE WITNESS: It is. Thank you, sir.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You write about it, now Mr. Kehoe asks questions
1 about it.
2 MR. KEHOE:
3 Q. If you can go back to the 1D420015, the slide for Operation
4 Summer '95. And then as that's coming up, Mr. Dangerfield, I refer you
5 to your -- again, your article at P699, and you -- you note that in the
6 first sentence in about the second week of July the Bosnian Serb army had
7 attacked the UN declared safe area of Srebrenica and taken it.
8 Now, if we can look at -- we can go to the next page of the
9 slide -- excuse me, the preceding page, please. It should be -- that's
10 right. That's fine.
11 Now, if we see in the right-hand side of this photograph, as we
12 move into July this is when the attacks were taking place on Srebrenica
13 and Zepa. Excuse me, summer -- I'm sorry. It should be two prior to
14 this slide, page 8.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm -- the first sentence in about the
16 second week of July, what page are we now?
17 MR. KEHOE: We're still on page 1.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Still on page 1. Paragraph?
19 MR. KEHOE: Paragraph three.
20 Q. Staying with this, Mr. Dangerfield, this is the area, of the
21 time-frame in July of 1995 where Srebrenica had been overrun, Zepa, there
22 was attacks on Sarajevo
23 a combination of VRS and the ARSK along with the forces of Fikret Abdic.
24 Isn't that right?
25 A. I can't recall specifically who was in charge of that operation.
1 Q. Well, if we move to the next page -- the next slide, excuse me.
2 Just in the interest of time if we could go through this just
3 briefly. This is the area, if you recall, that was taken by HV-HVO
4 forces, including Grahovo, that you refer to in the last paragraph of
5 P699. Is that right, sir?
6 A. You're linking the slide to my statement. I have a to divorce
7 both of them from each other. I do not know, and I don't recognise
8 whether that is the correct line or not. So I can only comment on what
9 is in my statement, and that is, as I said before, the sort of
10 information that you or I could read in a newspaper written broad-brush
11 by a defence correspondent.
12 Q. Well, sir, is this the general a that was based on your
13 recollection? Is this is the general area that had been taken by the
14 HV-HVO in the Summer '95 operation?
15 A. I'm simply not prepared to comment on that because as I say I
16 cannot comment on something that is not mine.
17 Q. Well, let us move to the next slide which is Operation Storm, and
18 you did report on Operation Storm. If you could go to the next slide.
19 Operation Storm we have this areas that are outlined, and if we can go to
20 the next slide.
21 Now, sir, you understood the importance of Operation Storm for
22 the -- both the RSK and for the HV to take. Isn't that right?
23 A. I was a 25-year-old captain when this happened, and you would
24 have read this article, and to me the whole thing was very interesting.
25 I was more interested on what was happening on the there and now, what
1 was happening on me -- on my patrols. I may have understood the reasons
2 why, but I was not working at the strategic level.
3 Q. Well, sir, you were there to gather information and to pass it
4 on. When you were gathering this information, did you ask the questions
5 as to why it was necessary for the HV, under the command of
6 General Gotovina, to take Knin?
7 A. I didn't ask the questions, but I think I probably knew it from
8 background reading from books I probably bought in a library.
9 Q. And what did you know?
10 A. I think Knin being a city, being probably the largest city -- or
11 certainly it was the largest city within the area known as Sector South.
12 I knew it was of importance.
13 Q. Okay, sir. And it was their communication centre, was it not?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. It was the ARSK centre of government, was it not?
16 A. I'm not -- I'm not sure.
17 Q. Were you familiar at the time of any of the particular troop
18 movements in and around Knin at the time? I'm talking about on the 4th
19 and the 5th during Operation Storm.
20 A. On the 4th and the 5th we were in the barracks in the UN
22 Q. If you'd just go to the next slide quickly and we'll get through
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dangerfield, that's not an answer to the
25 question. The question was whether you were familiar at the time. That
1 could have been by personal observation. That could have been by
2 receiving information from other people. Even if you are, as you said,
3 in the barracks, that doesn't necessarily mean that you do not become
4 familiar with certain matters.
5 Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.
6 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
7 Q. I'm just going to try to go through these and see exactly what
8 you know, sir. This is the 8th of August, and are you familiar at the
9 top of this item of the area where the confrontation -- confrontation
10 line solidified as of the -- as of August 8th?
11 A. This is a large-scale map. I dealt with maps 1:50.000 which to
12 you and I means one square, one kilometre. That was the level of detail
13 I was dealing with. So I can't comment on maps of this scale.
14 Q. Well, did the line -- if you look at the top, did the HV-VRS-ARSK
15 line solidify itself in and around Drvar, and did you see that when you
16 were driving around on the night?
17 A. I can't recall visiting specific places on specific dates. If
18 you could direct me in my -- in my reports where that is, then maybe I
19 can read it and look in more detail.
20 Q. Sir, I'm just taking you based on your statement that you were
21 driving all around the place with your driver and your vehicle as of the
22 9th, and I'm asking you whether or not you saw this particular
23 confrontation line or visited it.
24 A. I can't comment on the 9th, on specific dates, without my memory
25 being jogged.
1 Q. Let us turn to the next slide. Were you aware of a
2 counter-strike by the -- by the -- excuse me, by the combined VRS-RSK
3 forces? And if we can go -- on the 12th. And if we go to the next
4 slide. And the counter-attack by HV forces under the command of
5 General Gotovina on the 13th. Were you aware of that when you were down
6 in the area?
7 A. I can't comment on the specifics of the map where it is
8 indicated -- I believe you are indicating to whatever it is that took
9 place. So I cannot comment further, I'm afraid.
10 Q. Well, generally speaking without -- without -- if we can just
11 move away from the specifics and just talk generally, were you aware of
12 this going on on the 12th and the 13th of August?
13 A. I can't comment.
14 Q. If I might have a moment, Your Honour.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. KEHOE:
17 Q. When you say you can't comment, does that mean you don't know?
18 A. I don't think it means I don't know. I just don't recall it. I
19 just don't recall having information on it. I -- if it's -- I need to --
20 if you're asking me to comment on stuff, information that I've written in
21 any of my reports that are present here, then, yes, I can, but I can't
22 tie specific dates, places, actions, unless I've written on them.
23 Q. Well, I mean on that score let me just show you another map on
24 the 18th of ground taken from the counter-attack of the HV forces under
25 the command of General Gotovina. That would be the next slide.
1 That shows the confrontation line as of the 18th after the
2 counter-attacks. Now, just generally speaking on this entire matter,
3 sir, you did know -- when did you leave Knin?
4 A. I think it would have been early September.
5 Q. So -- and where did you go?
6 A. Home.
7 Q. In early September, I mean, did you learn of the HV moving
8 forward in early September in an operation called Operation Maestral?
9 And let me just move to the next slide and let me put you in there. We
10 can go to the next page.
11 Now, you did know, Mr. Dangerfield, that the combined forces of
12 the HV-HVO, along with the ABiH, did in fact attack the Bosnian Serb
13 forces in conjunction with the ARSK, and did you learn that they took
14 during this operation called Maestral from the 8th to the 15th of
15 September, 1995, did you learn they took 2.500 square kilometres of
16 territory and penetrated 30 kilometres into VRS territory? Did you learn
18 A. In September 1995 I was more interested in going home to England
19 where I hadn't lived for five years.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Dangerfield, the question was not what you
21 were mainly interested in, but Mr. Kehoe put to you, I must say, quite a
22 complex question containing a lot of information, so let's try to take it
23 one by one.
24 Did you know that the combined forces of the HV and the HVO,
25 along with the ABiH, did attack the Bosnian Serb forces in early
2 THE WITNESS: No, I did not, sir.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So then I may take it that you didn't know that it
4 was 2.500 square kilometres, that it was the 30 kilometres? It's --
5 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
7 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I earlier consulted my colleagues, and we all agreed
9 that the purpose of hearing the testimony of a witness is not to educate
10 the witness on the events that happened so that he goes home as a wiser
11 man but that the Chamber hears evidence and that the Chamber learns more
12 about what happened and what the witness can tell us. That might be a
13 little bit lost in the last half hour, if not 35 minutes. Please
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. And I will move ahead, and just
16 given the witness's --
17 Q. I take it from your testimony that you have no further knowledge
18 of HV activities after your departure in September of 1995. Is that
19 accurate in?
20 A. That's correct, sir.
21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if we just move through the rest of
22 these slides quickly. After Maestral I will show the Court these --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is this about what the witness just said, that he
24 doesn't know anything about?
25 MR. KEHOE: No, it's just that this is presenting the balance of
1 this to the Chamber, and it's --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we are here to -- let's look at the next slide
3 as you suggested.
4 MR. KEHOE: I can -- I can deal with this after the witness gets
5 off the stand with this particular document, Judge.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But have you really -- of course I wondered over the
7 last half hour also whether a lot of these matters as to which party took
8 control of what area, and even with the size of the areas, if the witness
9 apparently and repeatedly told us that he does not have the oversight
10 over what happened there, why not try to seek an agreement, because it
11 seems that most of this most likely would not very much be contested
12 when -- whether Bihac was in danger. I think we heard already some
13 evidence on that. We have heard evidence on the Srebrenica, Zepa, and
14 Gorazde. The witness clearly indicates that he was focusing on other
15 matters. He learned from it as a newspaper reader on some elements. Why
16 then not try to seek an agreement rather than spending 40 minutes in
17 court on matters the witness says, "I was not focusing on that. I didn't
18 know anything about that," where these seem to be issues that might not
19 be that much contested?
20 I take it there will not be much of a disagreement about who
21 attacked Srebrenica, when it was attacked, what the status of Srebrenica
22 was at that time. Similar issues for Bihac on which we heard some
23 evidence as well.
24 And now you are telling us, Mr. Kehoe, that you take us quickly
25 through the remaining slides which contains, apparently, a lot of
1 information which -- the basis for which is entirely unclear, maybe all
2 through who was where, at what moment in time, what operation was
3 running, but that's not the way this Chamber wants to receive evidence.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if I may.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
7 MR. KEHOE: Well, I mean, just on the basis of how -- of going
8 forward. It was the basis of providing and allowing -- putting -- we are
9 required under the rules to put our case to the witness and if the
10 witness doesn't know all this stuff that's fine. The fact is that if he
11 does know something that's going to add to this, it's of benefit to the
13 Now, this gentleman says that he doesn't know anything after he
14 left in September, so we will dispense with going through the rest of
15 them. However, it does reflect exactly what he knew at the time and what
16 he observed, and I will move to another topic.
17 Q. Now, sir, when you talked about what you observed in the theatre,
18 and I do believe that you said that you thought that the ARSK was
19 woefully under-equipped. Is that basically an accurate statement?
20 A. I remember using words along those lines.
21 Q. Now, on that score, sir, you were not permitted by the ARSK, or
22 were you, to go to any of their ammunition depots?
23 A. I never went to an ammunition depot prior to the 5th of August.
24 Q. Let me show you a video, and I just want to have you look at
25 this. And this is an HTV video, and it deals with the seizure of
1 weaponry at Golubic. Do you know where Golubic is, sir?
2 A. No, I don't, sir.
3 Q. We -- so I take it you weren't aware that there was an ARSK
4 weapons depot there?
5 A. Could you spell that location, please.
6 Q. I will put it on the screen in one second, 1D360007. This again,
7 Your Honour, is a film HTV for the 14th of August in Golubic. Sorry. Do
8 you know where Golubic is?
9 A. Mr. Kehoe, the witness asked to spell it for him. I think
10 it's --
11 MR. KEHOE: It's on the screen.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the screen.
13 MR. KEHOE: It's on the screen.
14 THE WITNESS: I've never seen that spelling before. This is not
15 my video, so I'm afraid I can't comment on it.
16 MR. KEHOE: If we can play it, sir.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Now, sir, you were -- you were unaware that they had this type of
20 weaponry. Isn't that right? And I say "they," I'm talking about the
21 army of Republika Srpska Krajina?
22 A. What type of weaponry?
23 Q. The weaponry that we just saw on this video, rockets, mortars,
24 ammunition. You were unaware that they had anything like this?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
1 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I understand the take on
2 what was seen as opposed to what was found in there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that on the assumption that what was said
4 to be found in this depot, that on the assumption that that would be
5 accurate, that Mr. Kehoe now asks Mr. Dangerfield whether he was aware of
6 such equipment to be available to the ARSK whether or not in Golubic.
7 You may answer the question.
8 THE WITNESS: I cannot comment on this specific video and this
9 specific location. However, I did say earlier on that prior to my
10 deployment I had training in weapons recognition.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's not an answer to the question,
12 Mr. Dangerfield.
13 In the -- in the video, whether or not accurate because you don't
14 have any personal knowledge of that, it was explained that they found in
15 Golubic rockets and mortars, ammunition. The question is whether you
16 were aware that large quantities of rockets and mortars, ammunition was
17 stored by ARSK forces.
18 I think that, Mr. Kehoe, is the question.
19 THE WITNESS: I can't comment specifically on this, but I do know
20 that armies, when they're preparing for war, have arms and ammunition
21 dumps. So --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a general statement on what armies
23 usually do. We have to clearly distinguish from what armies usually do,
24 what exactly there was in Golubic, but now the question was about whether
25 you were aware of the ARSK having at its disposal in the area in which
1 you were working large quantities of rockets and mortars, ammunition.
2 Were you aware or were you not?
3 THE WITNESS: There were arms and ammunition dumps that we were
4 told were there.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Of this kind of heavy weaponry?
6 THE WITNESS: I could not visits them because we were prevented
7 from visiting them, so I could not verify specifically whether they did
8 or did not have this level of weaponry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But they had depots?
10 THE WITNESS: That is correct, sir.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Now, sir, they also had -- ARSK also had tracked vehicles, didn't
15 A. I think the general description of tracked vehicles is fair, yes.
16 Q. And what tracked vehicles did they have?
17 A. Specifically I can remember they had T-34 tanks, but it appeared
18 to me that other tracked vehicles, which you could give a variety of
19 descriptions to, had modifications to them that you would not
20 specifically recognise.
21 Q. And what tracked vehicles are you referring to?
22 A. I would suggest to tracked troop carrying vehicle that might have
23 had one or two recoilless rifles/rocket launchers welded onto the side.
24 Q. And you saw evidence of tracked vehicle movement just prior to
25 Operation Storm, didn't you?
1 A. That is somewhere in one of my statements I recall reading.
2 Could you direct me to it, please?
3 Q. I certainly can. I believe it's P698, paragraph 10. It's a --
4 actually, it's your report, the Brief Overview for Sector South.
5 A. Okay. Could you direct me to where?
6 Q. Paragraph 10, sir.
7 A. Sorry. Thank you.
8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, while the witness is reading we'll offer
9 into evidence 1D36007, which is the video that just was played.
10 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, in the statement it says: "SLO recces last
13 week saw considerable evidence of road use by ARSK tracked vehicles."
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we continue, could we ask
15 Madam Registrar to assign a number to the video.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit number
18 JUDGE ORIE: And that is a video and transcript, I take it. D715
19 is admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
20 MR. KEHOE:
21 Q. And where was that -- that evidence? Where did you see the
22 evidence of the use of tracked vehicles?
23 A. I haven't got a specific location down there.
24 Q. And you don't recall?
25 A. Not the specific location.
1 Q. Now, also prior to Operation Storm, you told the Prosecutor
2 several days ago, two days ago, that you observed the ARSK had
3 helicopters as well. Is that right?
4 A. They had certainly more than one helicopter.
5 Q. Now, how many did you see?
6 A. I don't recall specifics.
7 Q. You also told the Prosecutor they had tanks, as you said today.
8 How many did you see?
9 A. I can't recall specific numbers, but as I said earlier on, I
10 never saw a significant gathering of them.
11 Q. Well, you also told the Prosecutor that you saw APCs. How many
12 did you see?
13 A. If I'd seen a decent sized gathering of them it would have been a
14 memorable event. I did not see a decent sized gathering so it would not
15 have been a memorable event. So it would not have been more than two or
17 Q. And artillery pieces, sir, did you see artillery pieces?
18 A. I suspect in my time there I probably saw in total throughout the
19 area of Sector South no more than half a dozen.
20 Q. Well, on the morning of the 4th of August, where were these APCs,
21 the tanks, the helicopters, and the artillery pieces? Where were they?
22 A. I don't know the specifics to that. If you can point me to it in
23 my report, then I can give you that.
24 Q. Sir, I'm asking you do you know where all that equipment was --
25 A. I don't --
1 Q. -- the morning of the 4th.
2 A. I don't recall.
3 Q. Now, going back to your statement, you note in -- and I am
4 talking about your first statement, if I may, so I can give you an
5 accurate description of this. Paragraph 22 of -- we've got P695, your
6 statement of 12/21/'95.
7 Now, taking you to the days just prior to Operation Storm, and
8 you note in paragraph 22 that there was a full mobilisation of the ARSK;
9 is that right?
10 A. That's the information that was passed to me.
11 Q. And that would --
12 A. -- from within the headquarters of Sector South.
13 Q. You note in paragraph 24 of that same statement: "The ARSK stop
14 all UN movement between Knin and UNBCP at Strmica."
15 A. I do indeed.
16 Q. Now, at this particular time the battle of Grahovo had just ended
17 and Grahovo had fallen. Isn't that right?
18 A. I'm not aware of as to the specific date or when that had
20 Q. Well, it was in the late July period of time that Grahovo fell,
21 didn't it?
22 A. We're looking at paragraph 25. It says: 29th of July,
23 "Colonel Leslie tells me that the ARSK troops in the Bosanski Grahovo
24 area are whoever they are." So that is the most detailed information I
25 have on that.
1 Q. Well, sir, did you see ARSK troop and equipment movement through
2 Knin up to Strmica in the latter part of July 1995?
3 A. Sorry, could you just repeat that question, please?
4 Q. I will. Using as a frame of reference your paragraph 24 on the
5 restriction of movement between Knin and Strmica, did you see the ARSK
6 move troops and commitment -- equipment through Knin up to Strmica in the
7 latter part of July of 1995?
8 A. I think I recall seeing limited equipment. I do know there was a
9 battle going on at some stage, because from the border crossing point at
10 Strmica up into the mountains troops would go up, injured would come
11 back. And when I say equipment, it might have been the odd rocket
12 launcher, one tank.
13 I'm sorry, I've lost the typed script on my left-hand screen.
14 I've got two of my statements on both screens. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dangerfield, one of the questions that was asked
16 about the battle of Grahovo, you said, "I'm not aware as to the specific
17 date or when that had happened." Then Mr. Kehoe asked you, "Well, it was
18 in the late July period of time that Grahovo fell, didn't it?" And then
19 you answered what Colonel Leslie told you.
20 I see in your article: "In the last week of July the Croat
21 forces moved swiftly and decisively to take the town of Bosanska
22 Grahovo." It surprises me a bit that where your article clearly states
23 this that you are talking about ARSK troops in Bosanska Grahovo. The
24 question simply was about whether it fell and that's what your article
25 says. So therefore, I do understand that you are precise in your
1 answers, that you do not want to say anything that you're not certain
2 about. At the same time, you're invited to answer questions.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. Did you know in your information-gathering that the ARSK was
6 planning a counter-attack against the HV in late July, early August of
7 1995? Did you know that?
8 A. I didn't gather that information in Sector South, so I have no
9 idea what they were planning at the end of July.
10 Q. Were you talking to ARSK personnel during this period of time?
11 A. No, I wasn't.
12 Q. So the information that you got came solely within UN Sector
13 South headquarters?
14 A. No, the information I got was information I gathered off the
15 ground. So the information I gathered was specifically where I went out
16 and gathered it for myself. There may have -- no, in fact there was
17 information that I also gathered from the United Nations battalions
18 within Sector South and from United Nations military observers. So I had
19 a variety of sources.
20 Q. Now, during your gathering of information from a variety of
21 sources, did you ever hear the description of an ARSK offensive called
22 Dinara '95?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let me turn your attention to the 4th of August and the entire
25 operation, and I'd like to move this into two separate areas, one the
1 shelling, and, one the actual operation. I mean, you note in your --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe -- Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock,
3 and at the same time I get a feeling that we are moving to a bit of a
4 different subject.
5 MR. KEHOE: We, sir, we are, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd first like to have the break. But before
7 we take a break, could I ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: My question may not come as a surprise. How much
11 time you think you would need, Mr. Kehoe?
12 MR. KEHOE: If I look at the difficulty that --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Kehoe.
14 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me. If I look at the difficulty that I've had
15 getting answers for this witness, I would say about three hours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would say perhaps the difficulties might be
17 less if you -- although I do recognise that to some extent what you say
18 is right, to some extent also you cause part of the problem yourself by
19 the way you're questioning the witness. The Chamber will consider also
20 in view of the way in which you used your time until now how much time it
21 will grant, but before we make final scheduling arrangements, and perhaps
22 we also might delay this, but I'd like to hear from other Defence counsel
23 how much time they would need.
24 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honour. I anticipate based on what I've
25 heard about so far about 15 to 20 minutes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Mikulicic.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: Yes, Your Honour. Speaking from my position I
3 could anticipate two hours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So the existing claim -- well, at least the wishes
5 amount to five and a half hours. Three hours for you, Mr. Kehoe, 20
6 minutes for Mr. Cayley, and then two and a half hours. That comes close
7 to six hours.
8 Perhaps as the Chamber will consider the matter, I take it that
9 Defence counsel will consider the matter as well, I would not be
10 surprised if the consultation with my colleagues would result in an
11 outcome that we would certainly conclude the testimony of this witness
12 before the recess. We have a break and we will resume at five minutes to
14 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to deal briefly
20 with one procedural matter.
21 I do understand that both Prosecution and Defence would like the
22 Chamber to -- to override the time limits under Rule 126 bis. Now, the
23 variation of time limits under Rule 127 starts: "Save as provided by..."
24 et cetera, et cetera, "... the Trial Chamber or Pre-Trial Chamber may on
25 good cause being shown by motion." May I take it that your motion of all
1 parties is that the good cause to override the time limits under Rule 126
2 bis is that it would cause you extreme difficulties during the recess
3 period to respond in time. Is that your motion?
4 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is that your motion, Mr. Tieger?
6 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber will decide on this motion in which
8 good cause was shown for extending in general terms the time limit
9 provided for in Rule 126 bis, that is that a response to a motion filed
10 by a party shall be filed within 14 days of the filing of the motion,
11 that as of next Monday, which is the first day of the recess, is extended
12 in general terms to three weeks instead of 14 days for the two weeks to
13 come. That means that a motion filed in the last week of the recess,
14 that the Chamber would expect a response within 14 days. That means that
15 you would then, within the first week after the recess -- and the recess
16 is not four weeks, but the recess is three weeks. We are not sitting the
17 first week after the recess. If this causes you major problems, I could
18 extend this ruling to three weeks. It would then cover the whole of the
19 recess but not the first week of non-sitting after the recess.
20 What is your wish?
21 MR. KEHOE: I think we contemplated that it would cover the
22 entire four weeks. I did talk to Mr. Waespi about it, Mr. Tieger, and I
23 think that that's what we were talking about, because I think people were
24 otherwise --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Otherwise, then it would mean that a motion
1 filed one day before the four weeks expire, that you would have three
2 weeks. That sounds not, in my ears, to be the right solution.
3 Then we would extend it to the full three weeks of the official
4 ICTY recess.
5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. I think that would be -- suffice.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that is the recess that starts next Monday and
7 lasts for three weeks.
8 Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: I actually perhaps didn't think through all the
10 variations and as Mr. Kehoe indicated, I think he was communicating with
11 Mr. Waespi on this, but I think we also contemplated that there'd be at
12 least some measure of consideration for motions filed immediately before
13 the recess, that somehow there'd be an extension --
14 JUDGE ORIE: You'd like to make it effective today, because --
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Today. Well, let's say on the -- is there any
17 filing to be expected today?
18 MR. KEHOE: I think that we'll probably file something --
19 JUDGE ORIE: You'll file.
20 MR. KEHOE: -- maybe tomorrow.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll extend that --
22 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] filed.
23 MR. MISETIC: It's already filed.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's already filed. But of course an extension of
25 time can be given even if the time has not yet elapsed although the
1 motion has been filed.
2 Then, also looking at my colleagues, but then this ruling that
3 the 14 days time limit in Rule 126 bis, as of today, is generally
4 extended to three weeks, and this ruling is valid for any motion filed as
5 of today until the end of the official recess of the Tribunal, which is
6 one week before we resume our hearings.
7 Yes? Okay.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We have dealt with that. Then we continue
10 with the examination of the witness.
11 Mr. Kehoe, I looked again at Rule 90(h). You don't have to put
12 your case to every witness. Rule 90(h) says that: "In the
13 cross-examination of a witness who is able to give evidence relevant to
14 the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall put to that witness
15 the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel," I think it
16 says, "appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the
17 witness." So that's a very limited situation.
18 May I draw your attention especially to both in 90(h)(i) and (ii)
19 "...where the witness is able to give evidence relevant to the case for
20 the cross-examining party." That is the first thing to be explored and
21 apparently there are areas where the witness is not able to do so, then
22 of course the usual rule 90(h)(i) applies.
23 Mr. Dangerfield, at the same time I'd like to ask you and to urge
24 you to answer the questions in the most direct way. If you don't know,
25 tell us. If you do know, tell it.
1 And, Mr. Kehoe, you're invited to put questions in as direct a
2 manner as possible to the witness.
3 The Chamber will look at the next 55 minutes to see what would be
4 appropriate as far as the allocation of time. I already said before, and
5 it has not changed, that we'd like to conclude perhaps not one minute
6 before the recess, perhaps even a bit more, because there might be a few
7 other matters.
8 Keep that in mind, and we'll further observe the way in which the
9 witness is cross-examined.
10 Please proceed.
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, I'd like to point your attention to your brief
13 overview report of the 4th of August. For the record that's P698.
14 Do you have that before you, is sir?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Now, I'm going to go through a series of areas in this document
17 and then ask you a few questions, and I'd like to start with paragraph 2
18 of that document on page 1. It notes that in the first sentence: "It
19 was a long time before HV-HVO made any headway on the ground," and then
20 you discuss the five areas of attack -- axes of attack, Excuse me.
21 And if I move to -- move to paragraph 10 of this same document,
22 and you're reflecting back on what happened on the 4th.
23 You note that the second sentence: "G2 assessment is that Knin
24 may fall by dark of 05 August. In order to do so, I believe that the HV
25 will require a more successful day than today. Troops approaching from
1 the south face a stiff opposition." And then you saw that -- that the
2 same sentence we talked before about the tracked vehicles.
3 And if we can go to paragraph 11: "In the west HV advances face
4 problems of indirect major routes and at times difficult terrain in the
5 approaches towards Knin."
6 And once again paragraph 12: "While Knin may come under heavy
7 artillery attack again, the considerable presence of ARSK forces in the
8 area will require more time before they come under direct fire from HV
10 Now, I just wanted to go through those -- those items for you.
11 And your assessment was that, even going back to paragraph 2, is that the
12 ground forces of the HV-HVO were having a difficult time fighting the
13 ARSK, weren't they?
14 A. They are assessments based on the reports from the national
15 battalions on the ground. The actual verification of the troops on the
16 ground was not verified by myself.
17 Q. But the suffice -- I'm sorry. But it would be accurate to say,
18 Mr. Dangerfield, that there was heavy fighting between the HV and RSK
19 troops throughout the entire area at the commencement of Operation Storm,
20 was there not?
21 A. The information I have given is, as I say, based on reports. I
22 can't say for certain that there was.
23 Q. Well, based on the information that you received, this is
24 certainly what you sent down to Split
25 situation was at the end of the 4th; right?
1 A. That is correct, but then I never managed to see in my entire
2 time in Sector South sufficient forces.
3 Q. Well --
4 A. So my assessment was they didn't have very many forces, but the
5 reports from the other nations suggest otherwise.
6 Q. So the reports from the other nations that were out in the area
7 and observation posts, were contrary to the information that you gathered
8 yourself. Is that accurate?
9 A. No, because they're different sources of information on different
11 Q. Well, if the information that you were coming back with
12 indicated, and I'm talking about indications from the various battalions,
13 indicated to you that there was heavy fighting between the HV and the
14 ARSK, where did this information come from? Where did these soldiers for
15 the ARSK come from?
16 A. The information in this particular report is based on the reports
17 received from the outlying United Nations battalions.
18 Q. That's not my question, sir. My question is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you put two questions. The first: Where
20 did this information come from. And then without waiting for the answer,
21 you asked: Where did these soldiers for the ARSK come from. So these
22 were the two questions.
23 MR. KEHOE: I apologise for that, Judge. They are two questions
24 and that was improper. And I will --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it's not easy to answer them. Of course we
1 should explore whether the witness knew where these soldiers -- where he
2 said he didn't know they were there where then at least they came from.
3 Let's try to take it step-by-step. Please proceed.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. Mr. Dangerfield, you noted for us that the information you were
6 receiving from the UN battalions was that there was heavy fighting going
7 on between the HV and the ARSK; is that correct?
8 A. The reports indicated that.
9 Q. The reports that you were receiving?
10 A. The reports at that came from the other battalions indicated that
11 there may have been heavy fighting.
12 Q. Now, my question for you is: If there were ARSK soldiers that
13 were fighting against these HV soldiers, where did these ARSK soldiers
14 come from?
15 A. I didn't physically see the soldiers, so I don't know where they
16 came from.
17 Q. Now, there was a considerable presence of ARSK forces in the
18 area, was there not?
19 A. When you say "the area," could you clarify that, please?
20 Q. Well, let's go directly to your statement and maybe you can
21 clarify it for us.
22 A. Yep.
23 Q. Paragraph 12: "While Knin may come under heavy artillery attack
24 again, the considerable presence of ARSK forces in the area will require
25 more time before they come under direct fire from HV tanks."
1 Now, going back to the question that I asked before, and that's
2 in line 14 when I said to you: There was a considerable presence of ARSK
3 forces in the area, was there not?
4 A. No, there wasn't.
5 Q. See what you wrote down in this report is either not true or
7 A. No. I'm not saying that about this report at all.
8 Q. Well, you told your superiors in Gornji Vakuf and also in Split
9 that there were considerable presence of forces -- of ARSK forces in the
10 area, and by that you meant the Knin area, didn't you?
11 A. I don't believe I did.
12 Q. Well, let's -- let's develop that further. What area did you
13 think you were talking about, or what area were you talking about?
14 A. This is 13 years on. I believe it may have been a misuse of the
15 English language and how it was written down.
16 Q. Well, what you thought was going to happen, Mr. Dangerfield, was
17 that that was going to be a bloody stand in Knin, didn't you?
18 A. Could you direct me to my statement -- in my statement to the
19 words you just used, please?
20 Q. Let's go back to paragraph 15?
21 A. Thank you.
22 Q. This is your conclusion, isn't it: "The request for aid to
23 evacuate women and children leaving behind ARSK troops shows signs of a
24 disturbing final showdown."
25 Now, before we move on -- excuse me let me ask a you question,
1 sir. You believed that with the considerable ARSK resources that Knin
2 was going to be defended in a bloody last stand, didn't you?
3 A. No. I think I'm referring there to any of the civilians that
4 were left in Knin.
5 Q. Well, let's go back up to paragraph 13, and we can answer that
7 "In a meeting today with UN personnel from HQ Sector South, the
8 local RSK personnel requested humanitarian assistance. The RSK personnel
9 were described as hysterical and in a state of bewilderment. They have
10 asked for UN support to evacuate some 32.000 people from the Krajina,
11 including 15.000 from the Knin area. These will be women and children up
12 to the ages of 15. Those remaining will be purely ARSK troops."
13 So from your own statement the evacuation was going to take
14 place. There was, as you say in paragraph 12, a considerable presence of
15 ARSK forces in the area, and you believed, as of the end of the day on
16 the 4th, that this showed signs of a disturbing final showdown, or as you
17 say two lines later in 15, "a bloody last stand." Isn't that right?
18 A. I think that would be referring to the less than a hundred
19 soldiers I spoke about earlier on.
20 Q. So when you are talking about your hundred soldiers, is that the
21 considerable presence of ARSK forces in the area that you refer to in
22 paragraph 12?
23 A. Area's not geographically specific in terms of size.
24 Q. Let me ask you a question, sir, about this document. Have you
25 met with anybody other than the Office of the Prosecutor in the past six
1 months about your testimony in this case? And I'm not referring to
2 members of the Office of the Prosecutor. I'm talking about other people.
3 A. No, I have not.
4 Q. You haven't sat down with anybody from the British government, is
5 that right?
6 A. No, I have not.
7 Q. So let me ask a you question. How long were you in the military,
9 A. Sixteen years, sir.
10 Q. And you're familiar with the fighting in built-up areas, aren't
12 A. I understand that term.
13 Q. And you understand that fighting in built-up areas is probably --
14 I'm just waiting for the translation. And you understand that fighting
15 in built-up areas is the bloodiest combat for an infantry soldier that
16 there is, isn't that right?
17 A. I believe so.
18 Q. And the one thing, the one thing that the military -- as a
19 military man, the one thing you want to avoid is fighting in built-up
20 areas because of the carnage that comes out of it. Isn't that right?
21 A. Under certain circumstances I think that would be fair to say.
22 Q. Now, when you are referring to this last showdown, you
23 believed -- I'm sorry, Judge. Sorry.
24 I apologise, Mr. Dangerfield.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Pause now and then.
1 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
2 Q. Now, when you're referring to this last showdown, this bloody
3 last stand as you say in 15, you were referring to your belief that it
4 would take a fight in a built-up area with a tremendous amount of carnage
5 before Knin fell. Isn't that what you believed, and isn't that what you
6 sent on to your headquarters?
7 A. I think we expected any ARSK troops that were remaining to come
8 back to Knin. I don't think we were expecting them to go straight
9 through Knin and out of the area.
10 Q. So taking your answer, you expected retreating ARSK forces, and I
11 take this -- by the way, let me ask you a question. What time of day did
12 you file this report, do you know?
13 A. No, I don't.
14 Q. Well, as of the end of the 4th, you expected retreating -- or
15 ARSK forces to come back into Knin for a last-pitched stand to protect
16 the city, didn't you?
17 A. That's my assessment, and that's what I would have done.
18 Q. Now --
19 A. It's not necessarily what they would have done or what they did.
20 Q. Given the fact that you would have done it as a military man, you
21 would agree with me it was more than reasonable for General Gotovina to
22 conclude, as you did, that the ARSK would do the same thing, that is,
23 have a last-pitch stand in Knin. Isn't that right?
24 A. I don't know what is reasonable for General Gotovina. I don't
25 know how he specifically operates, so I can't comment on that. Or
2 Q. Well, the forces of the ARSK did in fact withdraw for the defence
3 of Knin on the evening hours of the 4th, didn't they?
4 A. I don't believe so.
5 Q. Let me turn to you D713. This is an article or, actually, an
6 interview from Radio Belgrade as of 2200 hours, 20 hours GMT on the 4th
7 of August. And this is a BBC Summary Service of Radio Belgrade. If we
8 can scroll down just a bit at mid-page. Up a little bit more. Okay.
9 That's good. In the middle of that page, question to the -- General
10 Mrksic: "Does this mean that they have breached the front line?
11 "No. The disengagement line has not been changed, our forces
12 have withdrawn to the positions to the direct defence of Knin."
13 Do you have any information, sir, that what General Mrksic was
14 saying is incorrect?
15 A. I can't comment on aspects of media and journalism.
16 Q. Well, isn't what General Mrksic said consistent with the report
17 that you said -- that you wrote on the 4th of August about there going to
18 be a final showdown and a last bloody stand? Isn't that consistent with
19 what you wrote to your headquarters?
20 A. I can't comment on General Mrksic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You're not asked to comment on General Mrksic.
22 You're asked whether what you read as what General Mrksic allegedly has
23 said, whether that would be consistent with your report. That was the
25 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so, sir.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Why?
3 A. Because I don't know that this is what General Mrksic said. This
4 is a piece of paper with a transcript.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dangerfield, you're not invited to -- to comment
6 on whether these are the words of General Mrksic, yes or no. It is put
7 to you that General Mrksic has spoken these words, and on an assumption
8 that that is what he said, you're invited to see whether this is
9 consistent or inconsistent with what you reported.
10 Could you please answer that question?
11 THE WITNESS: I don't believe it is consistent, sir.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then Mr. Kehoe intended then to have a pause,
13 and then to ask you why. Could you explain?
14 Mr. Dangerfield, could you explain why you consider what was put
15 to you as the words of General Mrksic is not consistent with your report?
16 I appreciate that you took a pause, but it was a rather long pause.
17 THE WITNESS: The English language is very complex, and I don't
18 believe -- I'll just rewind. Different words and phrases mean different
19 things, and I am not certain that what he is saying is consistent with
20 what I am saying, and therefore I cannot say whether it is consistent or
21 not. This is someone else's translation. It is not my translation, so
22 it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to me. So I am not prepared
23 to say that it is consistent.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then you are in a position to explain to us how you
25 understand these words. Whether that is what Mr. Mrksic meant is a
1 totally different matter, but the wording as it comes to you now, in your
2 understanding of the English language, which again might be a different
3 one from mine, but could you please explain in what respect the words
4 apparently spoken by Mr. Mrksic, as you understand them, are inconsistent
5 with what your reporting?
6 THE WITNESS: Okay. The paragraph begins the Mrksic paragraph,
7 "No, the disengagement line"? Is that correct, the paragraph you're
8 referring to?
9 MR. KEHOE:
10 Q. That's -- that's the paragraph, sir.
11 A. Okay. Let me just read my bit. Okay. I believe that Mrksic is
12 saying that his troops have withdrawn to positions and that they are
13 controlling various areas. I refer to areas, as I'm not sure of Kordun,
14 exactly where that is. As for "we shall create conditions," and
15 everything else, I don't think that applies, and therefore with the
16 advance -- with what's written in my statement, with the advancing
17 Croatian troops looking at Knin as their final objective and ARSK troops
18 remaining, I'm not specific on numbers. I have said: "Milan Martic will
19 have to surrender or face a bloody last stand in the capital of Krajina,"
20 and that is my opinion. Surrender bit is not consistent with this
21 passage of General Mrksic's, and I have -- I have written "face a bloody
22 last stand." "A bloody last stand" does not refer to a specific number
23 of troops and he has referred to the direct defence of Knin.
24 Q. Well, sir, where did you get your information about the bloody
25 last stand and the final showdown that you put in this report?
1 A. From the various sources within the headquarters of Sector South.
2 Q. Who?
3 A. Well, it could have been the ops room, the UNMOs. Either of
4 those sources.
5 Q. Well, sir, there was still fighting -- if I can just pause a bit.
6 There was still fighting going on on the evening of the 4th between the
7 HV and the ARSK, was there not?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Let me show you -- read you something from a clip which is D123,
10 4 August, 1995
11 A. I do indeed.
12 Q. Question: "In your judgement are the Croats on point of taking
13 the town?" Talking about Knin. Leslie: "Taking Knin, no. We've had no
14 reports of Croatians being within direct fire range of Knin, and there's
15 still a lot of Serbs in Knin and in the surrounding hills so there we
17 Was that the situation on the evening of the 4th, sir?
18 A. That's Colonel Leslie's interpretation of it, yes.
19 Q. Do you disagree with Colonel Leslie's interpretation?
20 A. I would disagree with "there's still a lot of Serbs in Knin."
21 Q. Were you in Knin on the 4th?
22 A. No, I was not, but I had been prior to it.
23 Q. On the 5th, the fighting still continued on the 5th. And let me
24 go to your article, and that would be The Fall of the Republic of Serb
25 Krajina, P699, paragraph 4. This is after the -- after the carryover
1 paragraph it is the third paragraph down on page 4.
2 "I learnt from various sources that in the south the Croatian
3 forces advancing from Sinj had taken considerably more ground than we
4 expected. Intelligence revealed that they had actually advanced the full
5 10 kilometres. We later learned that the Croats had been
6 counter-attacked and driven back by the Serbs twice. To the rest of the
7 sector, the Croats had considerably less success and appeared to face
8 much stiffer opposition."
9 So you -- there was still a significant amount of heavy fighting
10 between the HV and the ARSK again on the 5th of August, wasn't there?
11 A. Those were the reports that came in from the other battalion.
12 They were not specifically verified, nor more importantly confirm by
13 myself. "Heavy" is a relative term.
14 Q. But you accepted those reports, Mr. Dangerfield, and you noted
15 that the Croats had considerably less success and appeared to face much
16 stiffer opposition. Those were your words, were they not?
17 A. Those were words from my interpretation of the battalion's
18 outline. As I said, I did not specifically verify and confirm those
19 actions, operations, ongoing battles. So then nothing was confirmed by
20 me on that subject.
21 Q. Did you use those reports to update your superiors?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Did you use those reports to write this article P699?
24 A. Some of them I will have done.
25 Q. So when they told you about this opposition and fighting, you
1 accepted it as true, didn't you?
2 A. I accepted it as the opinions of those who filed their
3 information. Whether it is true or not is not for me to say.
4 Q. Let us move on. If I might have one moment, Your Honour.
5 Let me cover a few things that were covered on direct examination
6 dealing with your reports, and in paragraph 33 Mr. Russo -- and the
7 report that I'm talking about is 695. I apologise, sir. That's your
8 report of 12/12/95
9 middle of paragraph 33 -- are you with me, sir?
10 A. I am indeed.
11 Q. And again if I get ahead, just please stop me.
12 "7th Puma Brigade was the first to enter the town. All the HV
13 military vehicles had stickers on denoting this. The first vehicles in
14 were the tanks and the APCs. They arrived in a convoy and were not
15 moving tactically because of this. I don't think they were expecting
16 much resistance. At about 1300, trucks and jeeps arrived."
17 Now, sir, what time -- I'm sorry. What time did the 7th
18 Puma Brigade arrive in Knin that you observed and what you're referring
20 A. I don't know. It would be sometime on the date that I put in
21 here, so sometime on the 5th of August.
22 Q. Well you note here that the jeeps came at 1300?
23 A. Trucks and jeeps, yes.
24 Q. Is that about the time the Puma Brigade came?
25 A. Reading that text, I suspect it was prior to that but not by
2 Q. Approximately when?
3 A. I don't know. Sometime in the previous couple of hours.
4 Q. So sometime between 11.00 and 1.00?
5 A. I'm happy to accept that approximation.
6 Q. When you wrote this --
7 A. I don't know when I wrote this.
8 Q. Excuse me, I'm just waiting for the --
9 A. Sorry.
10 Q. Sorry. When you wrote this, sir --
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. -- did you know that the HV was already at the hospital and
13 inside by 11.00 in the morning?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. So if they were in radio communication and if they were in the
16 hospital, it would be reasonable for the HV, as they were driving
17 through, to conclude that they weren't going to face any resistance;
19 A. No, because I believe the hospital is some way out from the
20 centre of Knin.
21 Q. How far?
22 A. I'd have to look at the map to be specific.
23 Q. Were they carrying radios?
24 A. Who?
25 Q. The HV have radios?
1 A. The ones at the hospital?
2 Q. The ones that you saw.
3 A. Okay. The ones that I saw on the tanks or the trucks, and the
5 Q. Anywhere.
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Now let's talk for a minute about the shelling of Knin. You
8 noted in your statement, if I may, that when the shelling started, and
9 I'm referring you to -- you to 699. That isn't your statement. It's the
10 article. I apologise. And in the last paragraph it says, "When it came
11 it was a shock and truly terrifying." In the last sentence: "And within
12 seconds my actions were those of someone who was terrified and in a state
13 of panic."
14 I think you told us this morning that you went down for the first
15 hour and a half or so and you were in bunker; is that right?
16 A. I went down there from about 5.00 till 6.30.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Last paragraph of what, Mr. --
18 MR. KEHOE: Last paragraph of the -- the article of -- I
19 apologise, Judge. This is the 699, The Fall of the Republic of the Serb
20 Krajina. It's on the second page of this article, the last paragraph.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. So for the first hour and a half you have no knowledge exactly
24 what was being targeted HV fire, do you?
25 A. Yes, Knin in general.
1 Q. Did you see it?
2 A. No, but it sounded like it. It was rockets and shells of
3 considerable proportion.
4 Q. Do you know what was in fact hit at 5.00 in the morning or
5 between 5.00 and 6.30?
6 A. I could not identify anything specifically as I was in the
8 Q. When you came out of the bunker you noted that there was a
9 tremendous amount of smoke. Isn't that right?
10 A. I did say that.
11 Q. And in your statement --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dangerfield, Mr. Kehoe asked you whether that's
13 right. Of course he quotes you because you've said that. He's seeking
14 confirmation that what you said is what you meant to say, and then the
15 answer, "I did say that," does not give the information Mr. Kehoe is
17 At the same time, Mr. Kehoe, the witness has, of course, already
18 testified as to the accuracy and -- so therefore you often start asking
19 whether something is right when you could move on more quickly.
20 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Now, in your statement of -- P695, your 1990 -- I apologise, 1995
24 statement. This is on page 7 of P695, in the centre of the page. You --
25 if I may, we're just going to bring this up on the screen. Can we go to
1 the next page on that, please. I think there's a B/C/S -- that's the
2 page. If we just go to the middle of the page, there, the top -- excuse
3 me. Just down a little bit. Okay. Let me see. That's good. About
4 midway down of that paragraph of paragraph 30.
5 It notes: "The town of Knin
6 of Knin was also covered by so much dust?"
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. "The town of Knin
9 the shelling that no one would have been able to see where the rounds
10 were landing unless they were standing in the immediate vicinity of the
12 Now, where do you say in this statement that the smoke cleared
13 and that you were able to see the point of impacts? Please look through
14 this, or if you know off the top of your head I'd invite you to tell us
15 where that is.
16 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but if counsel knows it's not
17 in there --
18 MR. KEHOE: It's not in there. If you stipulate to that we'll
19 move on. It's not in there, is it?
20 MR. RUSSO: I'll stipulate to that.
21 MR. KEHOE:
22 Q. Let me show you a photograph that's in evidence, and it is --
24 MR. KEHOE: If I can just explain this, Judge. It's actually
25 D569, but if, Madam Usher, you could bring it up as 1D380203. This is
1 one of those photographs, Judge, that we had put in through Sanction, and
2 I don't think it was uploaded between the time we used it and the time
3 of ...
4 If we could blow that up a little bit.
5 Q. Sir, that is photograph that was on the left-hand side OTP taken
6 of -- in late November -- or November of last year. I'm not certain of
7 the exact date, counsel.
8 And then the last one is one taken at the same time both from the
9 balcony area of the headquarters for UN Sector South.
10 Now, just looking at the first one on the right-hand side with
11 the smoke in the distance, that was essentially the viewpoint that you
12 had when you were looking into downtown Knin, didn't you?
13 A. I don't recognise this photo, and I don't recognise what time of
14 the day it was taken.
15 Q. Well, you talked to us -- I can offer to you that this was taken
16 into the early morning hours during the attack. It was presented in a
17 video coming from the OTP.
18 But your viewpoint going into Knin was -- looking at the
19 photograph on the left, that would be a viewpoint going into downtown
20 Knin. Isn't that right?
21 A. I don't remember the viewpoint from the balcony looking into
23 Q. Well --
24 A. And I don't recognise that photo.
25 Q. Well, when you were offering testimony this morning about the
1 areas of impact in Knin, you have no idea of what was actually impacted,
2 do you?
3 A. I do, because when I stood on the balcony and viewed it I was
4 using binoculars.
5 Q. Binoculars. You didn't say that this morning, did you? So you
6 were with binoculars and the smoke cleared; is that right?
7 A. I think -- I think you said, sir, that the -- this photo, you
8 know, is an early morning shot. I certainly recall being able to stand
9 wherever I did on that headquarters. The smoke had lifted, and when I
10 was viewing through my binoculars, when I could and when the time
11 allowed, I could see the areas, not the precise impact point, but the
12 areas as I circled on the map where the rounds were falling. So, yes, I
13 can say that the rounds were falling into those residential areas
15 Q. Categorically. Let's pull up P62.
16 Now, sir, in your statement of -- before we go to this, of 695,
17 you offered us, one, two, three, four, five -- six various targets, and
18 I'm talking about paragraph 26 of your statement, and you left out or you
19 didn't designate the headquarters of the army of the Republika Srpska
20 Krajina. Where is it?
21 A. There's something wrong with this photo.
22 Q. Well, it's the photo you used to circle this -- it's the same
23 photo you used to circle under P697 this morning. The same one.
24 A. It just doesn't look similar.
25 Q. Well let's go back to 697, P697. We'll use that one.
1 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry, Madam Usher. I apologise.
2 Q. Now, you recognise that one, don't you?
3 A. It may be similar. I'm prepared to say that I believe it's a
4 different resolution, and so it may -- it certainly appears different.
5 Q. What appears different?
6 A. The two pictures.
7 JUDGE ORIE: It's not photoed well on that.
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently the witness may have problems zooming in
10 and zooming out, and what you see on the screen is not what you see if
11 you're marking something on a desk or a table, but let's move on.
12 MR. KEHOE:
13 Q. Where is the headquarters of the army of Republika Srpska
15 A. I can't comment on that. All I can comment on are the various
16 locations that are printed on the map, on the map that I have signed and
17 the residential areas that I have located.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dangerfield, a question is put to you, and
19 I'd -- if you say, "I can't comment on that," the issue is not whether
20 you feel that you can comment on it but whether you know the answer to
21 the question.
22 The question was: Where is the headquarters of the army of the
23 Republika Srpska Krajina? Do you know or do you not know.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't sir.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Well, let's look at the actual targets that you gave us, and in
3 paragraph 26. Could you go to paragraph 26? You gave us a series of
4 items with a six-digit grid, and that's -- we know from other witnesses
5 that the six-digit grids is a hundred metres by a hundred metres; is that
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Let's look at the grid reference that you -- if we could put
9 1D420001 on the screen. If we can spin that, please. The other way.
11 Now, this is a grid reference you gave us in C for the general
12 supply, and the grid reference you gave us within a hundred metres is
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
15 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. The -- looking at this series of
16 pictures in this exhibit, it appears that, and correct me if I'm wrong,
17 Counsel, that they're going to put to the witness that the areas that
18 he's identified, the grid square references that he's identified, are
19 different from the areas where he identifies that they are using this
20 Google image map. I'm not aware of, and certainly we'd like to know what
21 the foundation for the fact that the grid square reference can be placed
22 on using Google Earth; specifically, that the grid square reference that
23 he used when he picked the map can be superimposed on an image from which
24 we don't know the elevation and we don't the other factors.
25 In other words, they're going to put to him that this is correct
1 and what you said was incorrect. I'd like some foundation laid for the
2 fact that this is correct, please.
3 MR. KEHOE: May I respond.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, yes, please.
5 MR. KEHOE: Grid references are grid references no matter where
6 you go and what you do, and the grid references are within -- the
7 six-digit grid references put in by the witness are within a hundred
8 metres of one another. All one need do is go out and look at the grid
9 references given by the witness and compare it to the grid references on
10 the map, and I will tell you categorically that on the five grid
11 reference that he put down he's 0 for 5.
12 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I would agree that grid square
13 references are uniform; however, they're uniform to uniform maps. This
14 is not a map, this is a satellite image for which we don't know the
15 elevation at which it's taken.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And now I have to shed my own light and please
17 correct me when I'm wrong.
18 Grid references refer to a division in squares of the earth
19 surface. Now, if you have a larger map, the -- that means a scale with a
20 lower number, 1:5.000, 1:10.000, then the grid references, the grid
21 rectangulars appear larger on the map as everything appears larger on
22 that map. So to that extent when you have a larger map the grid
23 references will enlarge with it, and if you take a map with more
24 precision, a scale lower than the previous one, then it will adapt. So
25 therefore, it does not depend on the maps. The grid reference will
1 always appear on the same location on the map. Otherwise, you might have
2 a problem, because if you manipulate the maps seriously enough then Rome
3 suddenly would be New York
4 Mr. Russo, if there's any reason to correct my understanding of
5 this, please do so, but I'm usually rather hesitant to give my own views
6 on matters. But if you agree then please feel free, or think it over
7 perhaps during the night, because it's 7.00.
8 MR. RUSSO: Yes, sir.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We will continue with grid references tomorrow
10 morning. But, Mr. Dangerfield, first I'd like to instruct you that you
11 should not speak with anyone about the testimony, whether that's the
12 testimony you gave today or whether that's the testimony still to be
13 given tomorrow. We -- we'd like to see you back, and we will adjourn
14 until tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same courtroom.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Friday, the 25th day of July,
17 2008, at 9.00 a.m.