Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7702

 1                           Tuesday, 2 September 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Good morning, Mr. Berikoff.

13             THE WITNESS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to remind you that you are still bound by

15     the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

16             THE WITNESS:  I understand that, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18             Mr. Kehoe, are you ready to continue your cross-examination.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

21                           WITNESS:  PHILIP ROY BERIKOFF [Resumed]

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Berikoff.

24        A.   Good morning, Mr. Kehoe.

25        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, we left off yesterday with briefly touching on the

Page 7703

 1     photographs that -- that you took around Knin pursuant to the request of

 2     Colonel Leslie, and I believe you told us that you didn't know the

 3     locations of those photographs.  Is that right?

 4        A.   That's basically correct.  Some of the locations I did, others I

 5     did not.  I just had general areas.

 6        Q.   Now, when you were taking these photographs for Colonel Leslie,

 7     did you take photographs of the military targets?

 8        A.   No, I did not.  It was mainly in a residential area, as I was

 9     asked to do.

10        Q.   So Leslie told you not to take photographs of military targets?

11        A.   I was not told not to take photographs of military targets.  He

12     was more interested in residential areas, so that was the area that both

13     Master Bombardier Parlee and myself stayed on.

14        Q.   Now, when you were taking these photographs, did you attempt to

15     research what those buildings had been used for during the course of

16     Operation Storm, on the 4th and 5th of August?

17        A.   No, I did not.  We merely drove up and down the various streets,

18     taking photos as we saw damage to the buildings.

19        Q.   Let me read you something before we address ourselves to one of

20     your photographs.  And this is the testimony that happened last week

21     before this Court, of an UN CIVPOL gentleman by the name of Erik Widen, a

22     noted --

23             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  I don't mean to interrupt,

24     but I thought we had agreed on a procedure.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, we had agreed on a procedure, at least

Page 7704

 1     the Chamber gave guidance to that procedure.  Now, I do not know whether

 2     the issue covered by the testimony of Mr. Widen has been raised already

 3     and whether questions were put to the witness already in relation to

 4     that, yes or no.

 5             Mr. Kehoe, the guidance was that before we put to a witness what

 6     another witness said that you would first explore with that witness what

 7     he knows about the events or the situation, without using that statement,

 8     and only then put the other statement to the witness.

 9             I don't know what your question would be or whether had you done

10     it already; so, therefore, I'm not a position to say whether you were

11     about not to follow that guidance or not, but at least you're now

12     reminded that the guidance is there.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Before we go into the question, Mr. Berikoff, let us turn to

15     P750, and photograph on page 6.

16             Now, Mr. Berikoff, this is a photograph that you took, and tell

17     me why you took this photograph?

18        A.   It was as we are driving down into the residential area.  I

19     believe it is a warehouse or factory of some sort.  I can't recall right

20     now.  But we were driving on the road in the residential area, and I saw

21     damage into the roof of that building.  I took it for no other reason

22     than for the damage on the roof of the building.

23        Q.   And this is a building that is right next to the police station,

24     isn't it?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 7705

 1        Q.   And this is a building that during the school year had been used

 2     as a school, wasn't it?

 3        A.   Yes, it was.

 4        Q.   Did you know, sir, that that building, during the time-frame of

 5     Operation Storm, was used to garrison 500 ARSK soldiers?

 6        A.   I was not aware of that at the time, sir.

 7        Q.   Had you ever talked to -- do you know Mr. Widen?

 8        A.   No.  I do not know Mr. Widen, sir.

 9        Q.   Did you ever talk to anyone -- so if Mr. Widen told this Court,

10     about this particular location:  "But this school where these soldiers

11     were, these were the 500 soldiers you were talking about when the Chamber

12     was asking you about it.  Isn't it?"

13             "Yes."

14             MR. KEHOE:  And this is on page 7339.

15        Q.   "And they came to that location after school let out, didn't

16     they?"

17             "A.  Yes, when the children left for summer vacation, so the

18     soldiers took over the school."

19             So, Mr. Berikoff, when you were taking these photographs of these

20     various locations, did you not believe that it was important to try to

21     ascertain what the particular building had been used for during Operation

22     Storm?

23        A.   My task at the time was to take photos of damage within the town

24     of Knin.  I did that.  I was strapped for time, and was not specifically

25     interested in what the exact purpose of the various buildings were.

Page 7706

 1             If Mr. Widen said that it was, it is information that he had and

 2     I was not aware of, sir.

 3        Q.   Well, why were you strapped for time?

 4        A.   Because of the nature of the tasking itself, on many occasions,

 5     we were followed by HV soldiers during the taking of photographs.  In one

 6     point in particular, we were even chased at gunpoint where they wanted to

 7     take our camera away, sir.

 8        Q.   Well, sir -- just waiting.

 9             Well, sir, was it Colonel Leslie who told you that he needed this

10     information quickly?

11        A.   It was not Colonel Leslie.  I was tasked through Colonel Tymchuk,

12     who received a call from Colonel Leslie, requesting that we take

13     photographs of as much damage as possible to the residential areas and

14     other buildings as we saw fit and basically picking buildings of

15     opportunity, sir.

16        Q.   Well, was it Colonel Tymchuk who told you that you needed to do

17     this, complete this assignment quickly?

18        A.   I believe it may have been Colonel Tymchuk.  We were requested to

19     get back to the compound as soon as possible, basically for our own

20     safety.

21        Q.   And as you noted, it was Tymchuk that was talking to Leslie?

22        A.   As far as I recall, yes, it was, sir.

23        Q.   Now, you know it is important in such an analysis to make a

24     determination what a particular facility was being used for during

25     Operation Storm.  Isn't that right?

Page 7707

 1        A.   Yes, it is, sir.  And I probably would have done that had I not

 2     been scheduled for deployment down to Sarajevo.  It was requested that I

 3     give the photos as soon as possible to Colonel Leslie.

 4        Q.   So, in all of the photographs that you have presented to this

 5     Court, you can't tell the Court whether or not there were military units

 6     in those locations or whether or not there had been some type of fighting

 7     around those locations.  You can't tell us any of that because you did

 8     not research that any further after taking the photographs.  Isn't that

 9     right?

10             MR. RUSSO:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  If we could have a

11     time-frame whether or not there was fighting.  Are we talking on the 4th

12     and 5th specifically?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we're talking about photographs, photographs

14     taken at a certain moment; and whether the witness researched whether at

15     that location, at a time there had been fighting or other circumstances

16     which might make it reasonable to consider that there was some military

17     interest in the damage or causing the damage to the structure.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Now, when you were taking this -- or doing this examination --

21     let me withdraw that and begin again.

22             Did you know that the UNMOs had done an assessment of the

23     shelling in and around the 17th of August of 1995?  Did you know that?

24        A.   I was not aware of that, Mr. Kehoe.

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 7708

 1             MR. KEHOE:

 2        Q.   Let me just go back, if I may, to the question that I asked you

 3     before, and I noted it at line 2.  So, in all of photographs that you

 4     have presented to this Court -- this is page 6 line 2.

 5             So, in all of the photographs that you presented to this Court,

 6     you can't tell the Court whether or not they were military units in those

 7     locations or whether or not there had been some type of fighting around

 8     those locations.  You can't tell us any of that because you did not

 9     research that any further after taking the photographs.  Isn't that

10     right?

11        A.   That's correct, sir.  Not only did I not research it after I took

12     the photographs, I had just been in country a short period of time, and I

13     did not have an opportunity to go up and down the streets of Knin.  Prior

14     to the offensive, my tasking was to go in various areas of Sector South,

15     and Knin was not one of my priority taskings, sir.

16             So that is why, no, I do not know whether they were military

17     facilities or not at the time.  I knew the military facilities on the

18     main street and in the main areas.  Those that were off the main streets,

19     I was not aware of, sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, in your question, you didn't limit

21     yourself to photographs taken in Knin town; although, the witness,

22     apparently, understood your question in that way.

23             Mr. Berikoff, your answer was very much focussing on Knin town;

24     whereas, the question was wider, whether you could tell us anything about

25     the use of the facilities of which you took photographs.

Page 7709

 1             THE WITNESS:  At the time I took the photographs, Your Honour,

 2     no, I could not.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Also outside of Knin town.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Also outside of Knin town, except where those areas

 5     were, there was definite presence of ARSK or former ARSK troops, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  This answer confuses me even more, Mr. Berikoff.

 7     You said you couldn't say anything "except where those areas where there

 8     was definite presence of ARSK or former ARSK troops ..."

 9             THE WITNESS:  Outside of Knin, even prior to the offensive, there

10     were areas that were definitely ARSK such as Oklaj, that area, and

11     others.  So, there, I knew there was a military presence.  I also had

12     general knowledge of military presence in the town of Knin in such places

13     as the barracks, the Ministry of Defence.  I did not know of military

14     presence in the factory areas, in the warehouse areas, or the schools.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You would say, of some areas, you knew in a

16     positive sense that there was military presence.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  As for the others, you do not know.

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, if I may have just one moment.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. KEHOE:

25        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, I would like to explore with you now - just change

Page 7710

 1     subjects a bit - and begin with the mortar incident on the 5th of August,

 2     where you testified that you and other members of the United Nations

 3     contingent went out and bagged the bodies.

 4             Now, I think you told us yesterday - and this is on page 7612,

 5     7612, counsel, at line 4 and 5 - that the round impacted at approximately

 6     8.30 to 9.00.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Yes, it is, Mr. Kehoe.

 8        Q.   And you have no idea who actually fired that round, do you?

 9        A.   No, I don't, merely for the fact that both warring factions used

10     the same type of weaponry.

11        Q.   And when we talk about the mortar round, you also described for

12     us yesterday the -- you being under mortar attack later on that day when

13     you went out.  You, likewise, don't know who fired those mortars?

14        A.   No, I don't.

15        Q.   And that's -- in part, your explanation is going back to the

16     testimony yesterday is that it is difficult to assess with both

17     withdrawing or advancing troops who were carrying mortars who would be

18     firing.  Isn't that correct?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   Now, you noted -- and I believe this is in your time-line that I

21     believe counsel attempted to clarify a bit yesterday, and that would be

22     in P744.  Do you have your book before you?

23        A.   No, I don't.  The court usher has my binder -- oh, yes, I do.

24     Thank you.

25             Where am I looking at Mr. Kehoe?

Page 7711

 1        Q.   I'm not sure what tab it is.  It's your -- the time-line that Rob

 2     Williams did in conjunction with you.  I believe it is it 744.  I don't

 3     have if you have it so designated.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  1702 is the 65 ter number.

 5        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, it is on the screen.  It might be easier just to

 6     deal with it on the screen?

 7        A.   No problem.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  If we can go to the third page, fourth page in, if we

 9     may, at the top of the page.

10        Q.   The time you have there is 9.30 that you went out there to begin

11     to work on the bodies.  Do you see that, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Just -- so the time was about 9.30, approximately, when you began

14     to --

15        A.   Approximately, yes, it is, Mr. Kehoe.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Berikoff, I know that these are approximate times here;

17     so, I mean, I ...

18             Now, when you went out there, Colonel Leslie expressed some

19     concern about you folks going out there, didn't he?

20        A.   The concern that Colonel Leslie had was that the bodies would

21     start decaying, and he was concerned about possible spread of disease.

22        Q.   And were you the one he spoke to about that?

23        A.   Yes, he did.

24        Q.   And this took -- did this conversation take place before you went

25     out there the first time?

Page 7712

 1        A.   Yes, it was.  That was the reason why we went out.  It was to

 2     possibly how many were dead, and if we could to move them off of the road

 3     if they were on the intersection.

 4        Q.   Now, after you went out, you said you did your examination of the

 5     bodies, and you said you made the decision to go back to the compound to

 6     get an engineer to check the bodies.

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   Did you go back and consult and talk to Colonel Leslie at the

 9     time as to what your intentions were?

10        A.   I'm not certain if it was Colonel Leslie.  I did speak to

11     somebody, whether it was in the operations or whatever, requesting the

12     assistance of an engineer to come out to the intersection to assist us

13     with checking for possible booby-traps.

14        Q.   Well, if the mortar attack was somewhere between 8.30 and 9.00

15     and you went out there at approximately 9.30, approximately when did you

16     have this conversation with Colonel Leslie?

17        A.   Which conversation, the one about going out for the bodies?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   It would have been shortly after the round impacted the

20     intersection.

21        Q.   And did you take to him about this as it was going on?

22        A.   Yes, I did, sir.

23        Q.   And tell us about that, sir.

24        A.   From -- what I recall is the mortar shell hit the intersection.

25     I was at the corner of the compound.  I saw the number of bodies or a

Page 7713

 1     number of bodies in the -- at the intersection.  I went back into the

 2     headquarters and spoke to Colonel Leslie at the time, told him that there

 3     were a number of bodies at the intersection, and I said it appeared as

 4     though there were a number dead.  He indicated his concern to me that, in

 5     fact -- of the possibility of disease if they were to lay out there very

 6     long because the weather was industrial warm.  So he requested at that

 7     time that I go out and check to see what we could do and to get the

 8     bodies off of the road, with the intentions of putting them in body-bags.

 9             When I went out to the road with colleagues of mine through the

10     compound, it was my decision to come back and request the use of an

11     engineer.

12        Q.   And then did you that, and you obviously told us about going out

13     and bagging the bodies?

14        A.   Yes, sir.

15        Q.   Did you come back and consult with Leslie again at that point?

16        A.   As I told you earlier, I do not recall whether it was Colonel

17     Leslie or not.  I spoke to somebody, whether it was in operations or

18     whether it was Colonel Leslie himself.  There was a number of different

19     activities ongoing at the time, sir.

20        Q.   Well, from the -- by the way, sir, why did you check these bodies

21     for booby-traps?

22        A.   From previous experience in combat, I have known people that were

23     either wounded or killed to have grenades and they pulled the pins on the

24     grenades; and when you move them or anything, the grenade can slip out

25     and the grenade will go off, and you become a casualty as well, sir.

Page 7714

 1        Q.   Now, this endeavour of taking the bodies and putting them in the

 2     bags, I think you told us it took -- or how long did it take?

 3        A.   We were probably out in the intersection at least till 11.00,

 4     11.30 in the morning, sir.

 5        Q.   And I think you told us -- by the way, let me just clarify one

 6     thing about those bodies.

 7             Later on in the day, when you went out and came back in, you

 8     noticed a body had been -- or the body had been run over.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes, it is, sir.

10        Q.   And that was, in fact, one body, wasn't it?

11        A.   In fact, that was one body.

12        Q.   Okay.  And that was a body that someone had shot in the bag at

13     the person?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So any reference to multiple bodies is inaccurate; it is only one

16     body?

17        A.   I -- I recall one body.

18        Q.   Now, after you brought the bodies back in, that was the time that

19     I believe you note in your diary that shortly after that is when this

20     doctor came up to the gate, isn't that right, and asked you --

21        A.   Mr. Kehoe, can you clarify because we did not bring the bodies

22     in.  We moved them to the side of the road.

23        Q.   I apologise.  I probably wasn't clear about that.

24             After the bodies were moved to the side of the road and you went

25     back into the compound, it was at that juncture that the Serb doctor came

Page 7715

 1     and asked for your assistance.  Is that right?

 2        A.   This is on the 5th you're talking --

 3        Q.   On the 5th, sir.

 4        A.   I believe it was sometime after that, yes, sir.

 5        Q.   And that was the conversation where the doctor told you and

 6     Colonel Leslie that only seven people had been killed during the

 7     offensive.  Is that right?

 8        A.   That's correct.

 9        Q.   And, approximately, what time was this?

10        A.   It was sometime after the HV had come to the gate, so it was

11     sometime that afternoon, sir.

12        Q.   So the HV had come to the gate already?

13        A.   To the best of my recollection, because it was late morning when

14     we finished bagging the bodies.  At 12.10 is when the HV came to the

15     gate.  So, as far as I can recall, it is after that.  I'm not exactly

16     certain, sir.

17        Q.   Let me check on one thing of yours, sir.

18             If could you go to your diary, 748, and that is the entry for the

19     August the 5th.

20        A.   Okay, sir.

21             MR. KEHOE:  That's it, 748.  Right.

22        Q.   And you see the entry for the 5th about midway through.  It

23     should be on 7 of 17.

24        A.   Okay.  I have found it, sir.

25        Q.   You see is says:  "A Serb doctor" -- I'm sorry.  The next page,

Page 7716

 1     sir.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If we could go to the next page of that diary, still

 3     on the 5th.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Madam Usher, can we go another page.  Thank you very

 6     much.

 7        Q.   About midway through that entry, you see there the sentence about

 8     halfway down says:  "A Serb doctor."

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   "A Serb doctor, the same one that had refused our offer to help

11     24 hours earlier, arrived at the gate just before the Croats did."

12        A.   If that's what I put in my journal, Mr. Kehoe, then that is how I

13     recall it that day, and my recollection may be off now because it has

14     been 13 years, sir.

15        Q.   In your diary -- I mean, in your statement on D284, page 14 --

16             MR. KEHOE:  If we could put that up on the screen.

17        Q.   You note at line 11, talking about the doctor -- it is on the

18     screen, sir.  It might be just easier to read it on the screen.

19        A.   I can see it my binder as well, sir, but no problem.

20        Q.   "He maintained that only seven people were killed during the

21     offensive, which made Colonel Leslie and myself sort of laugh at his

22     story."

23             So Leslie was there when the doctor came?

24        A.   He was in the compound.  Whether somebody went and got Colonel

25     Leslie at the time to speak to the doctor or he was right at the gate,

Page 7717

 1     I'm uncertain, sir; but, yes, he spoke to the doctor.

 2        Q.   This was, as you say, just before the Croats showed up?

 3        A.   If that is what is in my journal and in my statement, yes, sir,

 4     then I think that's the way it happened.

 5        Q.   And you note in your time-line that the Croats showed up at

 6     approximately 12.05?

 7        A.   12.05, 12.10, yes, sir.

 8        Q.   Now, let me show you an item.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  And if can I put up on the screen 65 ter 5394.

10        Q.   This is your daily journal that is from the 30th of July to the

11     20th of August, 1995.  This is the daily journal that the Prosecution did

12     not offer, and I will turn your attention to August the 5th, page 3.

13             Towards the top of that page, it notes that:  "The Croats had

14     taken over the hospital, and he wanted us to help evacuate many

15     casualties.  When he got to the hospital, there were as many as 300 to

16     400 dead civilians and military people lying on the ground."

17             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, if I could correct, at page 16, line 7.

18     Mr. Kehoe quoted saying, "... and he wanted us to help evacuate many

19     casualties when he got to the hospital."  The journal reads when "we" got

20     to the hospital.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

22        Q.   Let's go with that now:  "When we got to the hospital ..."

23             Well, "we" got to the hospital, you never got to the hospital,

24     did you?

25        A.   On the 5th - that's what I explained yesterday - I was uncertain

Page 7718

 1     as to what days exactly.  I know we did not get to the hospital after the

 2     HV came to the gate, sir.

 3        Q.   Well, did you go to the hospital on the 5th of August?

 4        A.   I am uncertain I don't recall exactly, sir.  I know I went a

 5     couple of times.  I know I went also with Colonel Leslie one time, when

 6     he went inside the hospital and I was in the parking lot, sir.

 7        Q.   Sir, when did you go with Colonel Leslie?

 8        A.   As I explained to you during our conversation on Sunday afternoon

 9     and again yesterday, I am uncertain of that, sir.

10        Q.   Well, let us turn your attention to 741, your -- P741.

11             At the bottom of the page, paragraph 5, you note in

12     paragraph 5 --

13             MR. KEHOE:  At the bottom of that page, if we can, P741.

14             THE WITNESS:  I don't see it on the screen, Mr. Kehoe.

15             MR. KEHOE:  It should be -- I don't believe that is 741 on the

16     screen.  Oh, we're just waiting a moment.  Okay.

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Due to a small technical problem, it will take half

19     a minute to get on the screen what you are seeking, Mr. Kehoe.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             The next page, please, number --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

24             Your Honour, the court officer says we can show it in Sanction,

25     if need be.

Page 7719

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we need it anyhow for other exhibits to

 2     come, so let's see whether we can ...

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   Just going to paragraph 5, sir.

 5        A.   And --

 6        Q.   The description of -- and you note in your journal:  "The

 7     description of 3 or 400 dead civilians around the hospital is not

 8     accurate."

 9             Now you got the number, 3 or 400 from Leslie, didn't you?

10        A.   Yes, I did.  And if I may just add, Mr. Kehoe, the information I

11     put in my journal was on -- done on a daily basis.  So I would like to

12     say, then, that the information in my journal is probably the more

13     correct, rather than - not the number itself - but the information itself

14     and the sequence of events.

15        Q.   Well, we'll get to that.

16             "I cannot say how many bodies I saw on the 5th of August, but

17     there were a lot of dead bodies, both civilian and military."

18        A.   That is correct.

19             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry.  Judge, I would just like to clarify.  The

20     quote is:  "I cannot say exactly how many bodies I saw there on 5

21     August," and I believe "there" refers at the hospital.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... to what it refers.  If

23     you say the quote is not correct, you can correct it, Mr. Russo, but you

24     can't then further explain what is meant by the quote.

25             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 7720

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 2             MR. KEHOE:

 3        Q.   "I cannot say exactly how many bodies I saw there on August the

 4     5th."  Is that right?

 5        A.   Yes, it is.

 6        Q.   You didn't go to the hospital on August 5th, did you?

 7        A.   If, in fact, it was in my journal, sir, like I said, I wrote the

 8     journal on a daily basis, and I stay by my facts in the journal with the

 9     exception of some of the -- the corrections that were made by the

10     Prosecutor.

11        Q.   Do you have your handwritten journal with you?

12        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

13        Q.   Turning your attention first on to 1D48-0021 --

14        A.   May I look at my journal itself?

15        Q.   This is your written journal.  Yes, sir.

16             MR. KEHOE:  It is 1D48-0001.

17             THE WITNESS:  What date are we looking at, Mr. Kehoe, please?

18             MR. KEHOE:

19        Q.   We're looking at the 4th, and this is page 21.

20             Do you see that, sir?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   This on the 4th:  Went down a number of times, tried to go to the

23     hospital, made it, but the Serbs refused any help.

24             On the way back, you talk about going to the chief of station.

25             Let us turn to page 25.  On the 5th, in the middle of page:

Page 7721

 1     "When the UN got there, as many as 3 or 400 civilians were lying dead

 2     outside.  As well, there were many, many dead throughout the city."

 3        A.   Yes, I see that.

 4        Q.   Okay.  You wrote this at or about the time of the events, didn't

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   It does not say that you went on the 5th, does it?

 8        A.   Not specifically, no.  But as I said yesterday, I do recall

 9     General Leslie, or Colonel Leslie at the time, going with me on one

10     occasion, when he went physically inside the hospital and I was in the

11     parking lot, sir.

12        Q.   Well, let us talk about the 5th.  You were -- a shell hit between

13     8.30 and 9.00 and you spoke to Leslie.  Correct?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   From 9.30 to somewhere after 11.00, you were cleaning up the

16     situation with the bodies.  Correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   The HV came to the gate at 12.05.  Correct?

19        A.   Between 12.05, 12.10, yes, that's correct.

20        Q.   And in between the clearing up of the bodies and the HV coming to

21     the gate, this Serb doctor came to ask for your help, right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   When did you go to the hospital on the 4th -- well, let me

24     withdraw that.  And after the Serbs -- after the HV came to the gate at

25     12.05, you had no further movement in the city of Knin for the rest of

Page 7722

 1     the day, did you?

 2        A.   That's correct.  There was no movement after 12.05, 12.10, yes,

 3     sir.

 4        Q.   So when did you go to the hospital on the 5th of August?

 5        A.   I don't recall, sir.

 6        Q.   Well, did you go or didn't you go, yes or no?

 7        A.   I know I went two times, and I know General Leslie was with me

 8     one time.  That's all I have on that, sir.  Other than that, I do not

 9     recall.

10        Q.   Now, these 3 our 400 bodies, this is information that you got

11     from Leslie?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   And did he tell you that these bodies were inside or outside?

14        A.   There were a combination of both.  When I was at the hospital, I

15     saw bodies and wounded outside the hospital.  General Leslie went inside,

16     and he gave the additional information, sir.

17        Q.   Well, going back to your item that is on the screen, it says that

18     the 3 and 400 civilians were lying dead outside it.

19        A.   That is erroneous information, sir.

20        Q.   This is erroneous information that you wrote --

21        A.   Based on information that I had received, sir.

22        Q.   Excuse me.  This is it erroneous information that you wrote at or

23     about the time the events were taking place.

24        A.   That was based on the information that I had received, sir?

25        Q.   And the person you received it from was Colonel Leslie?

Page 7723

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Now, turn back to 744, which is your -- the time-line that was

 3     done in conjunction with Captain Williams.  It's coming back up on the

 4     screen, and I would like you to go through the time-line of the 5th,

 5     beginning on I believe page 3.

 6             Now, beginning on page 3, sir, and going in about two more pages,

 7     I submit to you, sir, that there is no entry in this time-line that you

 8     did in conjunction with Captain Williams where it is stated that you went

 9     to the hospital on the 5th.  Isn't that accurate?

10        A.   That is accurate, according to that report, sir.

11        Q.   So, if Leslie was with you when -- shortly after the mortar

12     attack at 8.00 to 8.30 and was in the compound during the clean-up and

13     was there when the Serb doctor came and was there when the HV came to the

14     gate at 12.05, when --

15             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  I didn't finish the question, sir.

17             MR. RUSSO:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I thought you were finished.

18             MR. KEHOE:

19        Q.   When, to your knowledge, did Leslie go to the hospital on 5th?

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.  At 22, line 2, it says:  "If

22     Leslie was with you when -- shortly after the mortar attack at 8.00 to

23     8.30 and was in the compound during the clean up ..."

24             I believe the witness earlier testified that the clean-up took

25     approximately two hours from about 9.30 to about 11.00 or 11.30.  I'd

Page 7724

 1     like to know what the basis is for saying that General Leslie was in the

 2     compound during that time and how the witness would know that.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   We will clarify that, Mr. Berikoff.  He can always do that in

 5     re-direct, but we will do it on cross.

 6             Did Leslie go out during that time --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, if what you put to the witness does not

 8     represent, then it is not a matter to say you can redress that, and that

 9     you should be precise.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   To your knowledge, sir, did Leslie go out of the compound during

14     the time when you talked to him shortly after the mortar attack and when

15     you spoke to him at least at the time when the Serb doctor came to the

16     gate prior to the HV showing up?

17        A.   That is quite possible, Mr. Kehoe, because there were a lot of

18     things going on.  Many people were tasked with many different things.  So

19     it is possible.  My tasking and concern was the bodies at the

20     intersection at that time.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, may I ask you.  You said:  "To your

22     knowledge, did Leslie go out of the compound during the time when you

23     talked to him shortly after the mortar attack ..."

24             What did you mean, before they went out or after he had returned?

25     That is not clear to me.

Page 7725

 1             MR. KEHOE:  I will clarify that.

 2        Q.   After the mortar attack happened on 8.30 and 9.00, you spoke to

 3     Leslie, didn't you?

 4        A.   I believe I did, yes.

 5        Q.   When was the next time you spoke to him that day?

 6        A.   I am uncertain, sir.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, the witness has now said this three, four

 8     five times ---

 9             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] I'm just trying to clarify --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  Your question was unclear.  When you talk to

11     him, it is unclear whether you referred to talking to him before he went

12     out or possibly having talked to him after he returned, where the witness

13     said that he wasn't certain whether he talked with Mr. Leslie or another

14     person.

15             So your question was unclear, so there's no need --

16             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... apologise, Judge.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- to ask further questions to the witness to

18     clarify your own question.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Do you know if Leslie went out between the time you spoke to him

22     after the mortar attack and the time that you were at the gate with

23     Leslie when the Serb doctor showed up?

24        A.   No, I do not, sir.

25        Q.   So, if Leslie went out during the time that you were cleaning up

Page 7726

 1     or went to the hospital during the time you were cleaning up the bodies,

 2     he didn't go with you, did he?

 3        A.   No, he didn't.  And if you're trying to insinuate, sir, that I

 4     went with him on the 5th as well and on the 4th, I don't -- I told you

 5     that I do not recall, and I don't recall on the 5th.  However, I do

 6     recall going with General Leslie two times to the hospital.

 7        Q.   Well, you don't recall going -- let me withdraw that.

 8             Is it your testimony that you went to the hospital twice with

 9     Colonel Leslie?

10        A.   I may have, sir.  I know I went two times, and I know General

11     Leslie, or Colonel Leslie at the time, was with me definitely on one

12     occasion when he went into the hospital itself, sir.

13        Q.   Is there anywhere in your diary - in your diaries that you took

14     at the time - to support these trips with Colonel Leslie?

15        A.   No, there is not.

16        Q.   And that information would include also on the 4th as well as the

17     5th, isn't it?

18        A.   It would have, yes, sir.

19        Q.   Let us turn our attention to the 4th.

20             Now, on the 4th, in this trip to the hospital, you note in your

21     diary, and this is in number 4 -- just looking for the exact location.

22                           [Defence counsel confer]

23             MR. KEHOE:  P744.  If we can put P744 up, and let us go to the

24     entry for -- on the second page, towards the bottom of the page.  I'm

25     sorry.  It should be the page right before this.  It should be the entry

Page 7727

 1     for 1010 hours.  That's it.  I believe it's the next page, next page, one

 2     more, please.  1010 hours.  I think it's one back.  I'm sorry.  I'm

 3     looking at... okay.

 4        Q.   Do you see the bottom of that page?

 5        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

 6        Q.   At 1010?

 7        A.   Yes, I see that.

 8        Q.   It says:  "Captain Berikoff to Knin hospital with the SMEDLO."

 9             That's what you told us yesterday?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   That is the Senior Medical Liaison Officer, right?

12        A.   It is the Senior Medical Officer, yes.

13        Q.   It doesn't say anything about Colonel Leslie, does it?

14        A.   No, it doesn't.

15        Q.   Look through this, through the 4th, and look through the rest of

16     the entries of the 4th.  Does it reflect any trip with Colonel Leslie?

17        A.   No, it does not.

18        Q.   Let us turn your attention to P740, which is your statement of

19     21 May 1997.  Let us turn to paragraph 2-g.

20             Midway through that page:  "At about 1300 hours, I went to Knin

21     hospital with the SMEDLO, the Senior Medical Liaison Officer."

22             Is there any reflection in that report --

23        A.   No, there's not, Mr. Kehoe.

24        Q.   Let me finish.  Any reflection in that report that you went with

25     Colonel Leslie?

Page 7728

 1        A.   No, there is not.

 2        Q.   Are there any written reports at the time that you have that you

 3     went to the hospital with Colonel Leslie on the 4th or the 5th?

 4        A.   No, there is not.

 5        Q.   Would it surprise you to know, Mr. Berikoff, that Colonel Leslie

 6     testified in this court - page 1958, line 9, through 1959, line 4 - that

 7     on the 4th of August, he never went to the hospital.

 8        A.   As I said before, Mr. Kehoe, I know General Leslie went at least

 9     one time with me.

10        Q.   When?

11        A.   I'm not certain and I don't recall the time, sir.  He went in the

12     hospital; I was in the parking lot.

13        Q.   Well, that trip that you're saying took place is reflected

14     nowhere in any of the diaries and statements that you have made at the

15     time, is it?

16        A.   No, it is not, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you've asked the witness whether we find

18     it in document A, then in document B, and then whether it appears in any

19     document; and now you put that question again to the witness.  So that

20     matter is certainly clear.

21             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.

22        Q.   Now, in your D248, page 14, in this paragraph, line 18:  "En

23     route to the hospital, there was still a number of dead on the street."

24             This is talking about August the 5th.

25             Now, you never went out on August the 5th, did you?

Page 7729

 1        A.   Not in the afternoon; in the morning, I do not recall.

 2        Q.   Well, is this statement true, sir, that there were dead on the

 3     street?

 4        A.   Yes.  There were dead on the street, definitely on the 4th.  On

 5     the 5th, I just said I don't recall if I went, and if the statement is,

 6     in fact, the way it was.  I went a number of times into the town of Knin

 7     and, yes, there were dead bodies on the street, sir.

 8        Q.   Now, well, put it this way:  On these dead that were on the

 9     street, you observed that on the 4th?

10        A.   Yes I.

11        Q.   And you took photographs on the 4th, didn't you?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   Did you take any photographs of the dead?

14        A.   I took one photograph outside of the APC, and that was the that

15     you have of the smoke in the background.  That was the only photo I took

16     of the downtown area the first day.  The shelling was too intense to stay

17     standing out of the hatch and take photos, sir.

18        Q.   And you were in the hatch during these trips that you were taking

19     downtown, except for the period of time that you went out to take these

20     photographs of the Tvik factory.  Is that right?

21        A.   No, it is not correct.  We were in the APC and stood up in the

22     hatch very -- not too often at all and for very short period of times.

23        Q.   But you didn't take any photos?

24        A.   No.  I just took the one photo, like I just told you, sir.

25        Q.   Now, on this trip that you took to the hospital with the SMEDLO,

Page 7730

 1     you noticed -- you told us during our discussion on Sunday that you

 2     observed 15 to 20 people, wounded people, in and around the hospital.  Is

 3     that right?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And that some were soldiers?

 6        A.   Some were soldiers, yes, sir.

 7        Q.   And others were wearing camouflage of some form?

 8        A.   Parts of, yes.  Whether it would be camouflage shirts or

 9     camouflage shirt, or whatever, yes, it was a mixture of civilian and

10     military uniform.

11        Q.   And do you know where these people had come from?

12        A.   No, I do not.

13        Q.   Now, again, with regard to the bodies that you saw, sir, if we

14     can go back to your diary, your handwritten diary, 1D48-0021, on page 21.

15     If you can look at this entire page --

16             MR. KEHOE:  GO over to the second page, and go to the next page.

17     Okay.  Scroll up, scroll to the top of that page.

18        Q.   Sir, in this entry that you did at about or the time, you make no

19     entry about seeing any bodies, do you?

20        A.   No, I don't, sir.

21        Q.   Now, just briefly, you mentioned to us this photograph that you

22     took.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Can we just, if we can, go to that particular

24     photograph.  I believe that --

25        Q.   And this photograph you took, was this on your first trip out?

Page 7731

 1        A.   Yes, it was, either the first or the second.  I'm not exactly

 2     sure.  It was on one of the very early ones, yes, sir.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  And I believe it is that of P70 -- P750, excuse me --

 4     or 749.  Okay.  I believe it is at page 6.

 5        Q.   We'll come back to that when we find the photograph.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             MR. KEHOE:

 8        Q.   Now the first trip that have you have in your diary is the trip

 9     out to assist in picking up individuals, UN employees.  Correct?

10        A.   That's correct.

11        Q.   And the second trip is the trip that you took with the SMEDLO,

12     right?

13        A.   That is possibly correct.  Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Now, the third trip you took out was the trip you took with

15     General Forand.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes, in the afternoon, for the conference, yes.

17        Q.   And that was the one where you went into the press conference.

18     Is that right?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   When you went into the press conference, you told us that you

21     were tasked -- well, in your statement, and I believe it's in your P740,

22     at paragraph 2-h.

23             You were tasked to go get a local interpreter.  Is that right?

24        A.   That's correct.  I was given many tasks.  That was one of them,

25     yes.

Page 7732

 1        Q.   And you were -- you went to find him with Mr. Roberts?

 2        A.   I believe it was -- to the best of my recollection, it was

 3     Mr. Roberts, yes.

 4        Q.   And did you go with Mr. Roberts to find Predrag Sare?

 5        A.   I don't know who was the person was that we found.  Yes, I did go

 6     with Mr. Roberts.  I was basically escorting him.  I was the one with the

 7     weapon, and he did not have one.

 8        Q.   And you brought Predrag Sare back to the press conference?

 9        A.   Once again, I don't know who we brought back.  It was a gentleman

10     that -- or it was an interpreter that Mr. Roberts knew.

11        Q.   Now, this is the same interpreter that had a confrontation with

12     the HV downtown several days later, wasn't it?

13        A.   I found that out later that it was, in fact, the same person that

14     was doing the interpretation during the conversation, yes.

15        Q.   And when did you learn that that individual, Predrag Sare, was

16     suspected of being a spy?

17        A.   It was at the same time that the incident happened.  Captain

18     Geoff Hill and a number of his military police platoon were involved with

19     the incident, I believe, from what I recall being told, and that is when

20     I was first told of the allegations against this person.

21        Q.   Sir, did you bring that to the attention of General Forand?

22        A.   I don't recall me bringing it to the attention of General Forand,

23     but I think it was brought to his attention by somebody.

24        Q.   But it wasn't by you?

25        A.   Not by me, no, sir.

Page 7733

 1        Q.   Well, as an intelligence officer, Mr. Berikoff, if the UN had

 2     known prior to your arrival that Predrag Sare was a Serb spy, you as the

 3     intelligence officer should have been told.  Isn't that right?

 4        A.   I should have been told, but I wasn't.  There was a lack of

 5     passage of information on various areas, sir.

 6        Q.   Now, tell me, sir, why would the UN, Sector South, send a CanBat

 7     unit on the 4th of August at about -- shortly after noon to evacuate or

 8     pick up personnel from the Knin hospital?  Why would they do that?

 9        A.   I can't answer that question other than to say that possibly

10     because General Forand was the sector commander and he had requested

11     assistance from the Vandoos.  That would be my only understanding on

12     that, sir.

13        Q.   Well, did, on the 4th of August, did the UN evacuate personnel

14     from -- wounded personnel from the hospital in Knin?

15        A.   I don't know if they brought people from the hospital.  I know

16     that people were brought in by the Vandoos from up in the CanBat area,

17     sir.

18        Q.   Let me show you P314, sir.

19             Sir, this is a report from the CanBat dated August 31st, the time

20     sequence.

21             MR. KEHOE:  And let us go to the next page.

22        Q.   If we look at the entry on 16, for the 4th at 14th, 1995:

23     "Section of A company was sent with two TTVs to headquarters of the

24     Serbian forces in Knin to help evacuate wounded people and refugees.  The

25     section evacuated 36 wounded people from the hospital in Knin to the

Page 7734

 1     headquarters in Sector South and a large number of refugees during the

 2     battle of Knin."

 3             So is it a fact, sir, that as early as the 4th, the afternoon of

 4     the 4th of August, the UN was taking wounded people from the hospital in

 5     Knin to the headquarters in Sector South?

 6        A.   I -- I just answered previously that I don't know if they were

 7     from the hospital.  I know that the Vandoos section did bring in some

 8     refugees and some were wounded, and we set up an area in the compound

 9     that acted as a hospital for these people.

10        Q.   Were they soldiers?

11        A.   I -- I can't say, sir.

12        Q.   Were they young men?

13        A.   They were a combination of both.  There were military-aged people

14     as well as others.

15        Q.   As the security officer, did you make a determination if they

16     were soldiers?

17        A.   I was not the security officer.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

20             MR. RUSSO:  The witness has already answered, but the question --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, it could be that the witness had any knowledge

22     about what security officers had done.  So, therefore, the question as

23     such, Mr. Russo, is not inadmissible.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

25             THE WITNESS:  To expand on that, I was not the security officer;

Page 7735

 1     I was the Military Information Officer.  The security officer, Captain

 2     Hill, and his platoon of military police did the intake of refugees and

 3     anybody else that we brought into the compound, sir.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Did you ask anybody if the individuals that were being brought in

 6     were soldiers?

 7        A.   No, I did not.  I was doing other taskings at the time.  Captain

 8     Williams was basically acting as the immediate G2 or MIO, working in

 9     conjunction with the operations section inside.  I was doing most of my

10     stuff either in the compound or other taskings assigned to me, sir.

11        Q.   In P55, I will tell you this is another Prosecution witness, Mira

12     Grubor.  In her statement, it is noted:  "There were 35 patients left

13     behind in the hospital because they were not in a state where they could

14     have gotten on a bus or the trucks.  Most of these 35 were soldiers that

15     had been wounded on the previous day."

16             Under any circumstances, Mr. Berikoff, would it have been proper,

17     under the UN mandate, for the UN to move ARSK soldiers from the Knin

18     hospital into the compound?

19        A.   I don't know the answer to that, sir.  All I know is I was given

20     orders that we were not allow combatants into the compound.  I do not

21     know the -- I do not know the rules for the UN itself, sir.

22        Q.   Well, in not allowing combatants into the compound, you noted in

23     your diary on the night of the 4th, on 6 of 17, that in the search, the

24     array of weapons found was unbelievable.  There were grenades, pistol,

25     rifles, nivesa [phoen], and machetes.  You name it, they had it.

Page 7736

 1             Those people that were allowed in, were they soldiers?

 2        A.   No, they were not.  It was elderly people, young people, women.

 3     The women had weapons in their purses.  Elderly men were carrying

 4     antique-type rifles.  So, yes, there was a combination of everything.

 5        Q.   And a nivesa is a knife, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Well, let me turn your attention to 514, D514.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, when you were conferring, the Chamber was

11     as well.  The whole of the Chamber is totally lost about what this is all

12     about.  Of course, I see that you are eliciting facts from the witness,

13     but relevance, importance is totally unclear.

14             MR. KEHOE:  [Microphone not activated]

15             HE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. KEHOE:  I will hope, through the cross-examination, this will

17     be tied up, Judge.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   In the second page of -- you remember Major Bellerose, do you

21     not?

22        A.   Yes, I do, sir.

23             MR. KEHOE:  And if we can go to the second page of this document,

24     down a bit, please, in that column.  In the area that is talking about

25     people coming in:

Page 7737

 1        Q.   "Yes.  There were civilians."  This is Mr. Bellerose.  "Because

 2     we opened up the camp to displaced people to provide security, there were

 3     a few Serb soldiers that came in to try to get refuge within our camp.

 4             "So we said to them that if you want to come in, you have to

 5     disarm, because if we let you in with weapons, we're putting ourselves at

 6     risk.  So the condition was that if you want to come in, disarm yourself

 7     and you're like everybody else.  Some Serbs refused to disarm themselves

 8     as they stuck around outside the camp, and those were some of the guys

 9     that were killed by the mortar round outside the camp."

10             Now, is that an accurate assessment of what transpired in

11     allowing soldiers to come into the camp?

12        A.   No, it is not.

13        Q.   Is it accurate to say that people were refused -- the last

14     sentence:  "Some Serbs refused to disarm themselves as they stuck around

15     outside the camp, and those were some of the guys that were killed by a

16     mortar round."

17        A.   The part where some of them were killed by the mortar round is

18     true.  They did not refuse to disarm themselves.  I told them that

19     they -- they were not allowed in because they were soldiers and known as

20     combatants, and could not come in under any circumstances.

21             As far as the rest of the statement from Major Bellerose, I

22     cannot -- cannot agree with all of the accuracy.  I don't know.

23        Q.   So you're not saying it is inaccurate; you're just say saying you

24     don't know?

25        A.   No, I'm saying it is not inaccurate.

Page 7738

 1        Q.   Based on you being there, did you know Colonel Bellerose?

 2        A.   I knew him during my time in the compound, yes.

 3        Q.   And he was your fellow officer?

 4        A.   He was a fellow officer, he was an engineer officer, I believe.

 5        Q.   And did he go out and accomplish all the tasks that he was

 6     ordered to do?

 7        A.   As far as I am aware, he did.  He -- did he his job very well.

 8        Q.   And do you have any reason to question his credibility?

 9        A.   I don't have a reason to question his abilities, nor his

10     credibility; however, this statement is not accurate on the information

11     that I had received and the orders that I had received.

12        Q.   Before the break, I just want to cover a topic that -- that I

13     failed to address previously.

14             MR. KEHOE:  And if I can, if I can go back to 1D48-0025 --

15     actually, it is 1D48-0001, page 25.

16        Q.   In this sentence that we there, there is your written diary down

17     at the time:  "When the UN got there, as many as 300 to 400 civilians

18     were lying dead outside it.  As well, there were many, many dead

19     throughout the city."

20             MR. KEHOE:  If can I go back to P748, page 7.

21        Q.   This is your diary for the entry on the 5th, about midway

22     through.  You see that:  "When we got to the hospital"?

23              "When we got to the hospital, there were many dead civilians and

24     soldiers lying around."

25        A.   Yes, sir.

Page 7739

 1        Q.   And there is no entry in there for the 3 or 400 civilians?

 2        A.   No, there is not, sir.

 3        Q.   Now, when did you change this, sir?

 4        A.   As I told you yesterday, and I told the Prosecution as well, the

 5     journal was done in -- the electronic version of the journal, I started

 6     working on it as soon as I got to Sarajevo and it was an ongoing project.

 7        Q.   And, sir, you left out from your document the 300 or 400

 8     civilians.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Why did you do that?

11        A.   Yes, I did, because I did not -- I guess I did not believe at the

12     time that there were that many, and it was erroneous information, sir.

13        Q.   Now, when did you learn that this was erroneous information?

14        A.   It was just my own assessment because I had not seen that many

15     dead people, sir.

16        Q.   Did you, at that time, sir, come to disbelieve what Colonel

17     Leslie was telling you?

18        A.   It wasn't a matter of disbelieving.  It was a lot of people, and

19     probably including myself, exaggerated or had a tendency to sometimes

20     exaggerate some of the information.  So that's why when I sat down and

21     started doing the electronic copy I started reassessing it.

22        Q.   So you tell us that the information concerning the bodies was an

23     exaggeration?

24        A.   Yes, sir.

25        Q.   What was else was an exaggeration in the reporting?

Page 7740

 1        A.   Nothing in my reporting, sir.

 2        Q.   Well, you also, sir, changed this from "the UN got there as many

 3     300 or 400 civilians were there," you also changed it, "when we got to

 4     the hospital."

 5        A.   As I said, I recall two times of going to the hospital; once with

 6     the SMEDLO and once I know that General Leslie was with us.

 7        Q.   Well, when did you change this from -- well, why did you change

 8     this, sir, from "when the UN got there" to something that put you there,

 9     when, in fact, you weren't even sure if you were there?

10        A.   I don't recall, sir.

11        Q.   Now, you noted that the issue concerning the 3 or 400 bodies was

12     an exaggeration?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   The issue that was kicking around of indiscriminate shelling is

15     an issue that have you changed your mind on since your initial statements

16     back in 1995, isn't that right?

17        A.   It is not that I changed my mind, sir; it was reassessment that

18     went from indiscriminate to unnecessary.  It was the volume of the -- of

19     the shelling was still the same.  Nothing changed.  The targets were

20     still the same, but my assessment was that it was not indiscriminate.  It

21     was more unnecessary.

22        Q.   Well, sir, the issue of indiscriminate shelling that was being

23     talked about in Sector South at the time, that was a exaggeration as

24     well?

25        A.   At the time, it seemed indiscriminate.  If you were there at the

Page 7741

 1     time, sir, you may have said the same thing because the rounds seemed as

 2     though they were all coming into the area.

 3        Q.   And as we said yesterday, the information concerning the number

 4     of shells upon which you initially base your opinion came from Leslie as

 5     well as Parlee, right?

 6        A.   Yes, who were the experts in artillery.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I'm going into another subject here, and

 8     I should move into these quite quickly.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

10             We will have a break; but before that, I'd like Madam Usher to

11     escort Mr. Berikoff out of the courtroom.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  You asked earlier the witness will he would be

14     surprised to know that Mr. Leslie had testified that he never went to the

15     hospital.

16             MR. KEHOE:  On the 4th.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  On the 4th.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.

20             What I see in the testimony, at least the portions you referred

21     us to, is that Mr. Leslie describes how he left the compound a couple of

22     times.  He describes the trips.  He was never said whether this included

23     or he never said anything like "I never went to the hospital."  So the

24     appropriate way of putting this to the witness would have been whether

25     the witness would be surprised to know that Mr. Leslie, when describing

Page 7742

 1     how he left the compound on that day, never mentioned that he went to the

 2     hospital, which is not the same as that he said he never went to the

 3     hospital.  That is a matter of using language which lacks precision.

 4             Mr. Kehoe, I asked the witness first to leave so that I have --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  I understand, Judge.  With all due respect, I do

 6     believe that I said that Leslie never said he went to the hospital on the

 7     4th.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not talking about the 4th.  The reference

 9     you gave does not include a statement that he said "I never went to the

10     hospital."

11             MR. KEHOE:  Well --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  He does not mention the hospital.  He describes his

13     trips.  So, therefore, as I said before, the appropriate way of putting

14     this to a witness is that:  Would be surprised to learn that Mr. Leslie

15     when examined on where he went on the 4th, never mentioned the hospital

16     as a place where he went?"  That's the appropriate way of dealing with

17     that.

18             Similarly, in page 38, line 15, you said "where you weren't even

19     sure you were there."  I heard the witness testify several times that,

20     even there's a lack of recollection in some respects, that at least once

21     he went there with Mr. Leslie.

22             Whether it's credible, reliable is another matter.  But then to

23     put to the witness "where you weren't even sure you were there" is not a

24     precise representation of what the witness said.

25             The last questions were about exaggeration.  You're using a

Page 7743

 1     language sometimes in a way which is not with the precision that assists

 2     the Chamber.  I gave two examples.

 3             We will have a break, and we resume at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, as far as time something concerned, you

 8     indicated yesterday that you would conclude somewhere in this second

 9     session.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, I know.  I will try to move through this latter

11     part as quickly as possible, but I certainly will not go past the end of

12     the session.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The Chamber expects you to finish approximately

14     in the middle of the session.  The Chamber has considered your estimate

15     of yesterday.  The Chamber has also considered the speed in which you

16     come to the point you apparently want to make.  That takes you quite some

17     time, so the efficiency could be improved.  Therefore, the Chamber

18     expects you to finish in the middle of the session.

19             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge.  I mean, it is a bit difficult with

20     the translation and the speed.  It does take additional time.  So I will

21     move as quickly as possible, but I beg Your Honours' indulgence if I can

22     just take a little more time to just complete these matters, which I will

23     guarantee you, Your Honour, I will try to move through as quickly as

24     possible.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I do understand you that will try to conclude

Page 7744

 1     even before the middle of the session, but the Chamber expects you to

 2     finish by the middle, and I will not keep you to one or two minutes,

 3     but --

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  -- it is also on the basis of our evaluation of how

 6     the cross-examination was conducted up until now.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, I would show you some photographs now, beginning

10     with 65 ter 1520.  I will show you this array first.  These are the

11     matters that I wanted to address with you previously, beginning with page

12     100 of 65 ter 1520.

13             This first photograph, sir, on page -- this is smoke coming from

14     the Tvik factory, isn't it?

15        A.   Yes, it is.

16        Q.   And is that a bus going by right in front of you?

17        A.   It is either a bus going by or bus that is stationary, and we are

18     driving by it.

19        Q.   The next photograph is at page 128 of 65 ter 1520.

20             That is, likewise, smoke coming from -- that is, likewise, smoke

21     coming from the Tvik factory, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes, it is.

23        Q.   Same 65 ter number, page 98.

24             Likewise, smoke coming from the Tvik factory, sir?

25        A.   Yes, it is, just from a different location, yes.

Page 7745

 1        Q.   Right.  And page 99.

 2             Is that the same?

 3        A.   That's the same thing.  That's taken from, I believe, from the

 4     compound.

 5        Q.   Let me shift subjects with you for a few moments as we move

 6     through this, Mr. Berikoff.

 7             You noted, during your supplementary statement, that after the

 8     Red Alert on the morning of the 4th of August at 3.50, that you were then

 9     told to stand down.  Is that right?

10        A.   Yes, we were.

11        Q.   And "stand down" means go back, you know, you're no longer on red

12     alert, no longer on alert.

13        A.   That's correct.

14        Q.   And Colonel Leslie was the individual who told to you stand down?

15        A.   Yes, he was -- well, he didn't tell me personally, he told the

16     operation officers, who went around to the various bunkers and told us to

17     stand down.

18        Q.   And this was after he had received notice that attack was going

19     to come at 5.00 in the morning?

20        A.   That is correct.  That was my assumption.

21        Q.   Did you ever get an estimation --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

23             Yes.  Time cannot be gained by striking the pauses.

24             MR. KEHOE:  You know, Judge, I'm trying.  Betwixt and between,

25     I'm trying to move this as quickly as possible and comply with Your

Page 7746

 1     Honours' wishes.  Of course, I don't want to offend the interpreters

 2     either.

 3        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, did you ever get an explanation that given the

 4     notice of the attack on -- at 5.00 in the morning why Leslie told you to

 5     stand down?

 6        A.   No, I did not.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Berikoff, you understood -- and if I address your -- I'm

 8     going to move to the entry in your diary on the 31st of August.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  And this is on P748.  It is page 15 of 17, 748.

10        Q.   Now, it notes that:  "Colonel Leslie, now UNCRO COS, called

11     Lieutenant-Colonel Tymchuk and asked if I would be willing to do him a

12     favour, even though it was illegal (no photo taking) and possibly

13     dangerous."

14             MR. KEHOE:  If I can then go to D284, page 44, line 12.

15        Q.   In line 12, this talks about the same matter, and in line 12:  "I

16     guess, from what I understand, Colonel Leslie was putting in a protest,

17     to whomever, about the indiscriminate shelling of Knin."

18             When this favour was being asked of you, Mr. Berikoff, you

19     understood that people at UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb had concluded that

20     the shelling was not indiscriminate and that Leslie was protesting that

21     conclusion.  Isn't that right?

22        A.   I had not concluded anything with regard to whether it was

23     indiscriminate or not.  I did not know what UNCRO headquarters in Zagreb

24     had concluded.  I was merely acting upon a tasking given to me by Colonel

25     Tymchuk at the request of General Leslie.

Page 7747

 1        Q.   Well, what was Leslie protesting?

 2        A.   From what I understand, his protest was the indiscriminate

 3     shelling.  He had indicated early on at the beginning of the offensive,

 4     in his opinion, it was indiscriminate at that time.

 5        Q.   Pardon me, sir, it is the issue of protest.  You used the word

 6     "protest."

 7             Was someone telling Leslie it wasn't indiscriminate and that he

 8     was sending you out to find evidence that it was.

 9        A.   I have no information if he was told anything, sir.

10        Q.   Well, you put in your diary that he was -- and by the way, to

11     whom was Leslie protesting?

12        A.   I have no idea who he was protesting to, sir.

13        Q.   Did -- during your conversations with Leslie, I mean, did he

14     ever -- when he was describing the amount of shells, did he ever tell you

15     in your conversations that when he was talking about the rate of fire,

16     that it should not be taken literally?

17        A.   No, he did not, sir.

18             MR. KEHOE:  I reference, Your Honour, to page 2055, at line 5

19     through 9.

20        Q.   Now, you say this was only illegal because of the photograph

21     taking; however, he was asking you to do you [sic] a favour.  Is that

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, he was, sir.

24        Q.   Did a written order come from UNCRO headquarters down to

25     UN Sector South to perform this task?

Page 7748

 1        A.   I am not aware of any written order.  I know Colonel Tymchuk

 2     received a phone call from Leslie, asking if I would do that.

 3        Q.   The fact is that this particular favour was being asked of you

 4     outside the chain of command, wasn't it?

 5        A.   I did not look at it that way at the time, sir.

 6        Q.   Well, did you confer with Forand and ask him for a particular

 7     order while you were going out into and around Knin and elsewhere and

 8     putting your life in danger taking pictures?

 9        A.   No, I did not, because I was tasked by a colonel.  I was a

10     captain at that time.  I took my orders from Colonel Tymchuk.  I didn't

11     go directly to the general on requests like that, sir.

12        Q.   Well, Colonel Tymchuk didn't give you an order, did he?

13        A.   No.  He asked me if I would do it, and I had said, yes, I would.

14     I did not hesitate to do it.

15        Q.   Well, did you ever have a discussion with Forand where you told

16     him you were doing this for Leslie.

17        A.   Yes.  I told General Forand that I was doing it for Colonel

18     Leslie.

19        Q.   And was any of this put down in writing that this actually took

20     place?

21        A.   No.  It was not put in writing.  It was merely understood that I

22     had permission from General Forand, that it was no problem to go and do

23     it, just stay as safe as possible.

24        Q.   And, Mr. Berikoff, why was no order sent down from UNCRO for this

25     task to be performed?

Page 7749

 1        A.   I have absolutely no idea, and I can't answer that question, sir.

 2        Q.   Now, you noted for us that -- by the way, prior to this request

 3     coming in on the 31st of August, were you aware, without going into the

 4     documents, were you aware that the UNMOs had done an assessment where

 5     they noted that the shelling was around military targets, that UNCIVPOL

 6     had come to a similar conclusion, and that a final assessment had been

 7     sent to UNCRO that verified the fact that the shelling was clustered

 8     around military targets?

 9             Were you aware of all that prior to this request coming in from

10     Leslie via Tymchuk?

11        A.   No, I was not, sir.

12        Q.   Now, the issue concerning the illegality, the illegality was to

13     the taking of the pictures.  Is that right?

14        A.   Strictly taking of the photos, yes, by either the Serb side when

15     they were in the -- in Knin or the HV side when they were in Knin, sir.

16        Q.   Well, did General Forand tell you to do something illegal as

17     well?

18        A.   It wasn't illegal, sir.

19        Q.   Well, did he go out and tell you to take photographs?

20        A.   He did not tell me to go out and take photographs.  I told him

21     that I was requested to go to downtown Knin and take photos at the

22     request of General -- or Colonel Leslie through Colonel Tymchuk, sir.

23        Q.   Is there anywhere in any of your documents that reflects this

24     discussion between you and General Forand?

25        A.   No, sir, there's not.

Page 7750

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, would you please come to your point.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  I'm moving on.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I mean, I will discuss it outside the

 7     presence of the witness when we go into it exactly what the point is.

 8        Q.   Now, let us go to P742.

 9             P742 is a document dated 22 November 1995 that was written by

10     you, right?

11        A.   Yes, it is, sir.

12        Q.   And this was another document that came pursuant to a phone call

13     from Leslie.  Isn't that right?

14        A.   Yes, it is, sir.

15        Q.   Did you ever receive a written order from UNCRO telling you to do

16     this report?

17        A.   I do not have recollection of receiving a written order on that.

18     It was a verbal given to me.

19        Q.   So the only communication, even several months down the line,

20     from your initial request in August and now November came from Leslie,

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, it did.

23        Q.   Now, if it had gone through -- and you were no longer in UNCRO at

24     that time, were you?

25        A.   No, I was not.  I was in Sarajevo with UNPROFOR forward

Page 7751

 1     headquarters.

 2        Q.   Let us move into a separate topic, sir, as my time is short.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  If I might have one second.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   Let me discuss some of the topics that you talked about on your

 7     direct examination, sir, and in your statements with regard to looting.

 8             Now, in many of the instances that you were talking about

 9     looting, you were talk being people in camouflage uniforms.  Is that

10     right?

11        A.   Yes, I was, sir.

12        Q.   And in many of the instances where you talk about people in

13     camouflage uniforms, you are unaware whether or not those were HV regular

14     forces as well as military police.  Isn't that right?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   And you would agree that at least upon an initial entry into

17     someplace like Knin, a military force would have to go into various

18     houses to check for weapons or check for our dangerous situations.  Isn't

19     that right?

20        A.   It's logical, sir, yes.

21        Q.   And that is even more pronounced when you are doing it in an

22     urban environment?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   And that would be because, of course, that you were -- they would

25     be trying to protect themselves as well, the soldiers coming into the

Page 7752

 1     area.

 2        A.   That's correct.  As I explained yesterday, urban fighting is

 3     extremely difficult, sir, and dangerous.

 4        Q.   Now, sir, let me address one issue with you, and let me show

 5     you P352.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  This is an UN Sector South sitrep from 6 August 1995,

 7     and if I could go to the last page of that document -- if I can go to the

 8     first page first, so I can just -- did I say 252?  I meant 352.  There it

 9     is.

10        Q.   If you just take a look at the date, Mr. Berikoff, it is 6th of

11     August 1995?

12             MR. KEHOE:  And if we go to the last page -- or I guess the page

13     before that, if I may.

14        Q.   Midway through that paragraph F -- actually, the latter part of

15     that paragraph says, "More civilians."

16             Do you see that, sir?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   This is from the 6th of August :  "More civilians including cars

19     with Split licence plates are seen in Knin and a sense of normalcy is

20     returning."

21             Is that your assessment, sir, that as early as the 6th of August,

22     the civilian population was coming back into Knin?

23        A.   I don't believe this sitrep was prepared by myself.  I believe it

24     was prepared by the operations staff, Major Balfour.

25        Q.   And that would be based upon information he was receiving from

Page 7753

 1     individuals such as yourself that were travelling around?

 2        A.   Individuals such as myself and other sources of information that

 3     came into him, yes, sir.

 4        Q.   And so based on the information being passed up back to Zagreb,

 5     the UN was, in fact, seeing more civilians coming in as early as the 6th.

 6        A.   It would -- I don't know if that is true, sir, because on the 6th

 7     of -- on the 6th of August, we were still confined to the compounds -- to

 8     the UN compound.

 9        Q.   You have no reason to challenge that --

10        A.   I have no reason to challenge it based on the various sources

11     that the operations staff may have received the information.

12        Q.   Now, if we can go to the elements in the actual looting.

13             MR. KEHOE:  And if I could go to P284 -- D284.

14        Q.   Now, in D248, on page 48, in line 29, you note in line 29, going

15     into line 30, that you began to see an element of war profiteers coming

16     into the city.

17             Is that right?

18        A.   That's correct sir.

19        Q.   Just tell us what that is.

20        A.   They were people that set up little kiosks with various items

21     such as soda, cigarettes, et cetera, and they were charging exhibitant

22     prices for these items.

23        Q.   In addition to that, you discussed, during the course of your

24     testimony on the next page, 49, that there were local warlords in the

25     area.  Is that right?

Page 7754

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   And based on your assessment that these local warlords could very

 3     well be operating on their agenda where no one had the power to stop

 4     them.  Isn't that right?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   And, essentially, these warlords were operating with camouflage

 7     uniforms or camouflage kit, as well as other items that have an

 8     indication of being of a military nature in some fashion.  Isn't that

 9     right?

10        A.   That's also correct.

11        Q.   Now, it was your conclusion, sir, that on the warlord side, their

12     position could very well be at cross purposes with the Republic of

13     Croatia constitutional authorities because they wanted revenge.  Isn't

14     that right?

15             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm sorry.  If we could just have some

16     foundation about what --

17             MR. KEHOE:  Just go to the next page, then.  Page 50, line 19,

18     just for a reference for you.  My apologies.  I was trying to move

19     perhaps a little bit too quickly.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to go back to your previous question,

21     Mr. Kehoe.

22             You were talking about the warlords and that no one had the power

23     to stop them.

24             Where do I see that in the --

25             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... that is --

Page 7755

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- because you summarized.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  On page 49.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, lines?

 4             MR. KEHOE:  If we go from the paragraph 25, going over into the

 5     next page, into line 2.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see.  The warlords appear on the -- I see the

 7     warlords.  Is the first time on line 38?

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Line 31.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Line 31.  Let me see.

10             MR. KEHOE:  On 32.  Then, as we move down to 38 and 39:  "The

11     warlords may have had their own agenda and wanted to do what they

12     wanted."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then it continues at the next page.

14             MR. ORIE:  Yes, sir.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  "However, he still could have because there should

16     have been still soldiers loyal to him that could have prevented it."

17             So you put half of the statement to the witness, and I --

18             MR. KEHOE:  What I am talk about, Judge, is the existence and I'm

19     trying to develop with the witness the existence of warlords, and there

20     is some doubt in his mind whether the authorities could have stopped it

21     because of these warlords operating under their own agenda.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But that is not how you put it.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Well, Judge --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  No one could stop them, that is what you said; not

25     whether there was doubt in your mind as to whether ...

Page 7756

 1             That is just --

 2             MR. KEHOE:  I understand --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  It is of no -- it doesn't assist the Chamber, of

 4     course, to single one-half line.  The witness most likely --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, I mean, first --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... being fully aware.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  -- with regard to leading his way through this, I

 8     mean, this is cross-examination, and --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The examination of witnesses is done under the

10     supervision and control of the Chamber.

11             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... if I may, through all the

12     looting explanation from the Prosecution, did you hear one word about

13     warlords?  Nothing.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not objecting against the warlords being

15     introduced, but then in such a way that it assists the Chamber.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. KEHOE:

18        Q.   On the next page, on page 50, line 19 through 21, it says:  "I'll

19     going back to the warlord side of the house where they said that they had

20     their own agenda and they may have wanted revenge and didn't care what he

21     said."

22             Now, these warlords that you were talking about, that you

23     observed, Mr. Berikoff, was it your assessment that they were operating

24     under a spirit of revenge?

25        A.   In some cases, it is it my opinion that, yes, they were.  In

Page 7757

 1     other cases, they were working in conjunction with the HV, is what my

 2     assessment, sir.

 3        Q.   When you say "HV," you're simply talking about people that you

 4     observed in camouflage uniforms?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   Now, when you were observing this burning, sir, you concluded

 7     that it didn't make any sense.  Isn't that right?

 8        A.   That is right.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  And I refer you, for the Chamber's information, to

10     13 August 1995 of P748, the witness' diary.

11        Q.   And it didn't make any sense to you, Mr. Berikoff, because you

12     knew that the Croatian authorities given their refugee problem would have

13     needed these houses to house refugees.  Isn't that right?

14        A.   That's correct.  And it still boggles my mind as to why it was

15     done because it could have been used for refugees and other purposes.

16        Q.   And you know, sir, that at that time the Republic of Croatia had

17     a very large refugee problem.  Isn't that right?

18        A.   That's correct, because of the displacement in 1991.

19        Q.   So, in the midst of this large refugee problem that you knew the

20     Republic of Croatia had to address, you observed this burning of houses

21     and you concluded, based on that, that this simply doesn't make any

22     sense?

23        A.   It didn't make any sense.  But if you go back to what I said

24     yesterday with regard to Ivan Juric and his remark about getting rid of

25     all Chetniks in the area so that nobody could come back, that is the

Page 7758

 1     context that I was looking that as well, sir.

 2        Q.   If I can follow up on that, Mr. Berikoff, it didn't make any

 3     sense to you given the glaring need for housing that the Republic of

 4     Croatia had.  Isn't that right?

 5        A.   That's correct.  It wasn't logical.

 6        Q.   Now, you talked about Juric.  Juric doesn't speak English, does

 7     he?

 8        A.   Limited, enough that we were able to converse with him, sir.

 9        Q.   Did you have an interpreter with you when you spoke to him?

10        A.   There was an interpreter in most cases.  It was not necessarily

11     an interpreter.  The interpreter was a person that could speak English.

12        Q.   Now, it was clear during this early period of time when you

13     observed looting and burning that a power vacuum existed.  Isn't that

14     right?

15        A.   The initial state, yes.

16        Q.   Yes.  And were you aware of steps being made by the Republic of

17     Croatia to try to curtail the looting and burning that was taken on --

18     going on?

19        A.   I know there were steps taken following a meeting between General

20     Cermak and General Forand.  I know General Cermak had been told by

21     General Forand that there was, in fact, burning and looting going on

22     throughout the sector and that he wanted it to stop.  General Cermak had

23     indicated that this was being looked after.

24        Q.   Specifically, sir, were you aware of the efforts by the military

25     police and the civilian police to take steps to curtail this conduct?

Page 7759

 1        A.   No, I wasn't sir, because there was occasions when I saw the

 2     military police and military doing the actually looting themselves.

 3        Q.   My question is:  Were you aware of what the authorities in Zagreb

 4     were trying to do to curtail this activity?

 5        A.   No, I'm not.

 6        Q.   By the way, when you spoke to Mr. Juric, who was your

 7     interpreter?

 8        A.   I don't recall who the interpreter was, sir.

 9        Q.   Was it Mr. Sare?

10        A.   I don't know.  It was -- I don't believe we took an interpreter

11     with us.  It was one of the people inside of the Ministry of Defence or

12     the police headquarters where Juric was that spoke English.

13        Q.   Now, sir, over the weekend, I shared with you a series of maps

14     concerning military operations.  Do you recall that, sir?

15        A.   Yes, I do.

16        Q.   And I think you told us at the outset that prior to coming to

17     Zagreb or the former Yugoslavia, you were working in the national defence

18     in the Yugoslavia Crisis Staff?

19        A.   Yes, I was.

20        Q.   When did you begin that?

21        A.   I started that right in April of 1991, and that continued on

22     until 1994.  Between 1994 and 1995, when I was deployed, I was a

23     commanding officer of an intelligence organisation in Ottawa and then got

24     deployed to Knin in July of 1995.

25             While I was commanding officer, I was also kept abreast of the

Page 7760

 1     activities in the former Yugoslavia.

 2        Q.   And just carrying on that, you got redeployed, I believe, in

 3     September of 1995 to Sarajevo to UNPROFOR?

 4        A.   UNPROFOR headquarters forward.  And in January of 1996, I moved

 5     on as the Deputy Commander of the Canadian intelligence cell at the NATO

 6     headquarters in Ilizda complex.

 7        Q.   And during this entire time, you continued to follow the sequence

 8     of events that were taking place in the former Yugoslavia with coming to

 9     the end of the fighting in the fall of 1995?

10        A.   I kept abreast of the situation in Sector South until

11     September the 6th when I wept down to Sarajevo.  While I was in Sarajevo,

12     I had a general interest of what was happening in Sector South, but my

13     focus was now on Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Well, let me show you the map that we discussed over the weekend,

15     the series of maps.

16             MR. KEHOE:  That's 1D42-0015.

17             And I will go through this expeditiously, Your Honour, given the

18     fact that witness has seen this document before, and we have gone through

19     it with him.  This is it the operations of the Croatian army and the

20     Croatian forces.

21             If we go to the first page, the next page.

22        Q.   Talking about fighting, Mr. Berikoff, in winter 1994 --

23             MR. KEHOE:  If we go to the next page.

24        Q.   This is it a consistent with your knowledge of the general

25     fighting in winter 1994.  Is it not, sir?

Page 7761

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Let's go to the next page, which is Jump 1, which is

 3     April of 1995.

 4        Q.   The next page is, as you note, on April 1995, we go to Operation

 5     Jump 2?

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Next page, please.

 7             THE WITNESS:  At the outset of all this, Mr. Kehoe, I think I can

 8     speed up the process by saying, yes, I discussed this with your staff

 9     over the weekend, and the general overview of the various operations that

10     took place during the period are generally accurate, as far as can I

11     remember, sir.

12             MR. KEHOE:  So, Your Honour, just to speed matters up without

13     going it page by page, we offer into evidence 1D00-4215.

14             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I would simply --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

16             MR. RUSSO:  I would simply request the provenance material for

17     these maps.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, first of all, I mean, they come from a

19     variety of different sources, but we went through this with the witness

20     for him to verify that fact that this information is accurate based on

21     what he was going through at the time.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I believe the witness just indicated

23     that the general overview presented by these maps is accurate.  That's

24     quite a far cry from a lot of the specific information which is included

25     on here.  And I just want the provenance material.  I am not objecting to

Page 7762

 1     the admission of the exhibits.  I just want to see what they're based on.

 2     I can see from several of the documents that it indicates that the area

 3     of operational responsibility is below Gracac, and that's certainly at

 4     odds with other evidence that indicates that Gracac is within the Split

 5     Military District.  So I want to know what this is based on.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Well, Your Honour, if I may, if the Prosecution has

 7     particular challenges to this exhibit, then they can offer evidence to

 8     counter that.  At this point, the Defence is offering this particular

 9     document into evidence, and any challenge coming from the Prosecution

10     goes to weight.

11             This witness can say that this information is it generally true.

12     If they have some specific problem with something, then they can offer a

13     document into evidence to counter that, as we do.  I mean, every document

14     and piece of paper they put into evidence, we don't get the provenance

15     material back --

16             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm not objecting to the admission of

17     the exhibit.  I believe it is it admissible.  I simply want what the

18     trial -- these are trial maps.  Clearly, I want just want what they're

19     based on.  I am not saying they don't come.  When we put in maps, we put

20     in the foundation for the maps.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, whatever they're based on, I do understand

22     that you, Mr. Berikoff, on the basis of your previous assignment, that

23     you confirmed to the accuracy of what is depicted on these maps, which

24     are maps with, from what I understand, previous operations, not Operation

25     Storm.

Page 7763

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, it does include Operation Storm.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Where exactly?  Because it went rather quickly

 3     because I am now at Jump 2.  Is that still to come, or let me just see.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  It keeps going on, Judge.  It goes from Jump 2 to

 5     Summer 95.  Let me just continue to page through it.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, the maps that I was shown was over the

 7     period of 1991 right through and including Operation Storm.  It was

 8     different operations that took place.  While I was the intelligence

 9     officer in Ottawa Canada, I knew of the operations in general terms.

10     That is what I said I agreed to, that the general overview of the various

11     operations was, in fact, true.  Whether the boundaries between north and

12     south, et cetera, were accurate, I am not certain, but the general

13     overview of the documents I agreed with, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             Of course, Mr. Russo, if you say it including Operation Storm, of

16     course, we were only at the sixth or the seventh page out of 21.  But I

17     do understand that this is a series of maps which depict in a general way

18     the development in the several operations up to and including Operation

19     Storm.  And since you said there's no admissibility issue, the Chamber

20     will -- and having heard the basis on which the witness confirms the

21     accuracy of the maps, how they were composed as the result of good sleep

22     and REM at night, is not of any importance if the witness says this is

23     accurately depicts what I learned in my previous job.

24             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I would agree with everything the Court

25     said except the Court's characterize where it indicates where you said at

Page 7764

 1     line 10, "I do understand this is a series of maps which depict in a

 2     general way the development of several operations."  I don't believe that

 3     is accurate.  There is a great deal of very specific information

 4     regarding locations of units, in particular border areas.

 5             I do understand and I agree that the witness has generally

 6     accepted that this is the -- these are the areas where the operations

 7     happened.  I'm certainly not disagreeing with that.  I am, in fact, not

 8     disagreeing with anything.

 9             But as to the specific information which is recorded, there is no

10     foundation for it.  I'm not objecting to the admissibility, I just want

11     the foundation, and we have been promised this other cases.  I don't know

12     why it is a concern.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  So, therefore, admission at this moment seems not to

14     be a problem.

15             Mr. Registrar, would you please assign a number to this series of

16     maps.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D728.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D728 is admitted into evidence.

19             And your concerns are on the record, Mr. Russo.

20             MR. KEHOE:  If I can just correct one thing Mr. Russo said, and I

21     am kind of astonished at this point that he said this.  But Gracac is not

22     in the Split Military District during Operation Storm.

23             MR. RUSSO:  If that's the Defence`s position, that's fine, Your

24     Honour.  That is a clearly a contested issue.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

Page 7765

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we would also like to offer the diary of

 2     Mr. Berikoff that wasn't admitted.  This is the 65 ter 5394.  That was

 3     the diary not offered by the Prosecution, 30 July through 20 August 1995.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  My apologies.  No objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D729.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  D729 is admitted into evidence.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I'd like to offer into evidence the

11     handwritten diary of Mr. Berikoff.  That is 1D48-001 [sic].  It is a

12     multiple page document, 67.  It is the entire diary, written diary.  I

13     believe it is 67 pages.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

15             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number D730.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D730 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. KEHOE:

20        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, just turning our attention to General Gotovina.

21             The last time that you -- or when was the last time that you

22     either -- saw General Gotovina?

23        A.   The last time I saw General Gotovina was -- actually, I saw

24     General Gotovina a number of times following the death of President

25     Milosevic at the United Nations detention unit.  I was involved as a

Page 7766

 1     member of the panel that did the investigation into his death.  I had the

 2     unique of opportunity of interviewing General Gotovina with regards to

 3     the death of President Milosevic.

 4        Q.   Make my question wasn't -- let me focus the question a little bit

 5     in fairness to you.

 6             In Operation Storm, up until the time that you were in

 7     Sector South, when was the last time you saw him?

 8        A.   During Operation Storm, I believe I only saw General Gotovina one

 9     time, and I think that was on the -- I don't recall the exact date

10     without having to look at my notes, but I believe I only saw him one time

11     when he was at a meeting with General Forand, and that is the only

12     occasion I had to see him during Operation Storm, sir.

13        Q.   And would that have been approximately the 6th of August?

14        A.   I believe it was the 6th that -- that he had a meeting notice

15     compound with General Forand.

16        Q.   And you never saw General Gotovina after that during your

17     deployment in Sector South?

18        A.   I have no recollection of seeing him after that time, sir.

19        Q.   And you, likewise, have no recollection of even discussing

20     General Gotovina after that meeting.

21        A.   No, sir, I didn't.

22        Q.   If I can have just one moment, Mr. Berikoff?

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please look at your screen for a second.

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, [indiscernible]is all, I have no further

Page 7767

 1     questions.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Berikoff.

 3        A.   Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I think --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  You even took less than half of the session,

 7     Mr. Kehoe.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I do get a star or something, Judge?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, --

10             MR. KEHOE:  Judge, I think I have been requested by Ms. Higgins,

11     because she wants to show some things to Mr. Berikoff, if we could shift

12     and they could come up here.  I don't know if Your Honour wants to take a

13     break while we do this or just stay in place.  I don't think it will take

14     long.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't think it will take much time, no.  I can

16     already announce to the parties that we will have at the end of today's

17     hearing, we will have to stop at 1.30, instead of the usual 1.45.  That

18     is already for your information.

19             But if would you please do your movements.

20              Mr. Berikoff, you will you now be cross-examined by Ms. Higgins,

21     who is counsel for Mr. Cermak.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:

Page 7768

 1        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, I'm going to be asking you some questions on behalf

 2     of Mr. Cermak.  Do you understand?

 3        A.   Yes.  I understand, ma'am.

 4        Q.   Now, just so that I can be clear about your function and your

 5     job, I'm going to start there, if I may.  You describe yourself and we've

 6     heard that you were an UN Military Information Officer.  Correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   So, effectively, you were involved in assessing who was doing

 9     what, where in Sector South?

10        A.   That would have been my initial job, yes.

11        Q.   And we know from the third statement that you made that you were

12     tasked by General Forand on numerous occasions to get as much information

13     as possible about the situation in the Krajina and Sector South in

14     particular.  Is that right?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Now, I note that your specialisation is being a Military

17     Information Officer.

18        A.   Yes.  The terminology "Military Information Officer," at that

19     time, the United Nations did not use that terminology "intelligence

20     officer."  They rather used "information officer," and that is what I

21     was, and, yes, I was an intelligence officer.

22        Q.   Now, just so that I understand and the Court understands, if you

23     could indulge me explaining very briefly and simply the difference

24     between information and intelligence.

25        A.   Information is raw material; whereas, intelligence is assess the

Page 7769

 1     material of the raw information that you gain throughout the sector or

 2     wherever.

 3        Q.   And would I be right in saying that there are largely two

 4     sources:  First is the human source or the two-legged sources as it is

 5     often referred to; and the send is, of course, the document resources?

 6        A.   That is two of the sources.  There is an number of other sources

 7     as well, ma'am.

 8        Q.   What would those be?

 9        A.   There's imagery -- overhead imagery, there is electronic

10     information that you can receive, various means of eavesdropping,

11     et cetera.  So there is a variety of sources ma'am.

12        Q.   And part of being an information officer would presumably also

13     involve you talking to people on the ground, particularly in an

14     unfamiliar territory?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Now, I'd like to move on straight away, please, to information

17     that you gathered and had in respect of Mr. Cermak.

18             Can I ask you this, first of all:  Before Mr. Cermak came to

19     Knin, were you aware that he was a successful businessman operating in

20     civilian life?

21        A.   Prior to his arrival, no, I did not know anything about

22     Mr. Cermak.  Following his arrival in the Knin area, I then learned, in

23     fact, that he was in the petrol business in Croatia.

24        Q.   And did you know that he was appointed by President Tudjman to

25     his position in Knin on the 5th.

Page 7770

 1        A.   I had learned that during the day of the 5th of August, yes.

 2        Q.   Would I be right in saying, to be fair to you, that there was no

 3     pre-deployment briefing as to who Mr. Cermak was before you arrived Knin?

 4        A.   No.  You're correct in saying that, ma'am.  There was not any --

 5     General Cermak was not mentioned at all.

 6        Q.   And it would also be right, wouldn't it, to say that you never

 7     had a one-on-one meeting with Mr. Cermak?

 8        A.   Personally, I did not, no; however, I attended a meeting and I

 9     escorted him around the compound with the refugees.  But I did not have a

10     one-to-one with General Cermak.

11        Q.   I'll come on a little bit later to the meeting.  But if I could

12     just move on to say this -- or to ask you this:  Would it be fair to

13     suggest that there was perhaps an element of confusion among members of

14     the UN in Knin as to who Mr. Cermak was?

15        A.   When Mr. -- General Cermak first got appointed to the position,

16     yes, there was.  I won't say it was confusion, but he was an unknown

17     entity, and the name was not recognised by the majority of the people in

18     the compound.

19        Q.   Now, as an unknown entity and given your role as an UN

20     information officer, did you ever seek to make a request to go and speak

21     with Mr. Cermak himself to find out more about who he was?

22        A.   That would not have been my job to do that; however, if I was

23     tasked to do that, I probably would have.  Did I?  The answer is, no

24     ma'am.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to now move on to ask you about various

Page 7771

 1     titles that you have ascribed to Mr. Cermak.

 2             The first title -- I'm going to move in sequence, and I'm going

 3     to take your first statement that you made in 1996 so that have you it in

 4     mind, Mr. Berikoff.

 5        A.   No problem, ma'am.

 6        Q.   The first title we have is, in fact, mayor.  Do you remember

 7     referring to that when you reviewed your statements?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.  There were a number of titles given to General

 9     Cermak.

10        Q.   Well --

11        A.   -- and mayor was one, yes.

12        Q.   Yes.  Can you tell us, please, first of all -- and we'll move

13     through those title.  But, first of all, could you help me with the

14     source of the information, please, for the title of mayor.

15        A.   The source of the information would have been through our

16     operations centre, who, in all likelihood, got it from the senior

17     management, be it Colonel Tymchuk, General Leslie, or General Forand.

18        Q.   Well, you say it would have been through the operational centre.

19     I'm going to ask you a very simple question which you may be able to

20     answer yes or no, and it's this:  Can you tell me the name of any

21     individual who referred to him as mayor?

22        A.   No, I cannot, other than our own managerial staff.

23        Q.   Now, did you come to know that he wasn't, in fact, the mayor as

24     one hadn't been appointed?

25        A.   I was not aware of that, ma'am.

Page 7772

 1        Q.   Did you know there was a governments commissioner in the area?

 2        A.   I was not aware of that.

 3        Q.   Had you heard of the name of Mr. Petar Pasic?

 4        A.   I am not aware of that name, ma'am.

 5        Q.   As an information officer, Mr. Berikoff, did you ever compile a

 6     list of people's names and/or job functions in relation to the civilian

 7     police, the military police, or the army?

 8        A.   I personally did not compile the name; however, I provided names

 9     to the operation staff and they, in turn, compiled a list, I believe.

10        Q.   So the answer is no?

11        A.   The answer is no, I did not, ma'am.  I only provided information.

12        Q.   Thank you.  The second title, Mr. Berikoff -- and I'm not trying

13     to confuse you or upset you but you understand it is my job to go through

14     it?

15        A.   I'm not upset, ma'am.

16        Q.   The second title that you use is commander of Knin, and we see

17     that, in fact, in your second statement and in your third statement.

18             Now, the second account that you give in 1997, if you recall, is

19     in the form of a letter or an account rather than a statement.  Do you

20     know the document I'm referring to?

21        A.   I believe that was the freedom of movement letter that you're

22     speaking about, ma'am.

23        Q.   Well, firstly let's deal with your account.

24             The account is it dated the 21st of the 5th, 1997, and it's the

25     account that you wrote in Canada.  It will be in your -- it's in your

Page 7773

 1     binder.  It is it referred to as, I believe, as the second statement.

 2        A.   Yes, ma'am.

 3        Q.   Is it right that you made that in Canada?

 4        A.   That statement, yes.

 5        Q.   When you made that statement, did you seek anyone else's advice?

 6        A.   No, I did not.

 7        Q.   Now, during the third interview that you gave -- or rather, the

 8     statement that you made, the course of that interview, you were asked by

 9     the Prosecution to authenticate certain documents which I believe

10     included these letters that we're going to come on to, two letters.  Do

11     you recall that?

12        A.   I recall authenticating various documents, yes.

13        Q.   And those documents were provided to you by the Prosecution.  Is

14     that right?

15        A.   Yes, they were, as far as I believe.  I had a copy -- if you're

16     talking about, once again, the letter of freedom of movement, I had my

17     own personal copy of that letter, ma'am.

18        Q.   Let's just briefly have a look at them, if we may.

19             MS. HIGGINS:  The first is P405, please, and it's the letter

20     dated 8 August 1995.

21        Q.   Is that on your screen, Mr. Berikoff?

22        A.   Yes, it is, ma'am.

23        Q.   And can you see, although the type is quite faint, that it is

24     signed off:  "General Ivan Cermak."

25        A.   Yes, I see that.

Page 7774

 1             MS. HIGGINS:  Can I please now move to the second letter, which

 2     is dated the 11th of August letter, and we have it as P390, please, if

 3     that could be brought up onto the screen.

 4        Q.   Do you have that, Mr. Berikoff?

 5        A.   Yes, I have, ma'am.

 6        Q.   Now, can you see at the bottom of that letter, it refers to and

 7     signed off by:  "Commander ZM, Knin, General-Colonel Ivan Cermak"?

 8        A.   I see that.

 9        Q.   If you can cast your mind back to the time of these events, did

10     anyone ever explain to you, Mr. Berikoff, what "ZM" meant?

11        A.   It wasn't -- no.  We weren't given a total explanation other than

12     that General Cermak was, in fact, in charge of the -- basically all of

13     Sector South.

14        Q.   I'm going to come on to that.  But to answer my question, the

15     answer is no.  Is that right?

16        A.   If you put it that way, yes, ma'am, the answer is no.

17        Q.   Now, as a Canadian, are you a french speaking Canadian?

18        A.   I understand -- I am not french speaking.  I understand and speak

19     it, but I am Anglo.

20        Q.   Understanding it and speaking it, did you ever think or were told

21     that it was, in fact, that it was suggested to that it was "zone

22     militaire," for example?

23        A.   It could be, ma'am.  I was not explained that.

24        Q.   Did you, in fact, come to know that it stood for "Zborno Mjesto,"

25     which translates as "garrison"?

Page 7775

 1        A.   That is more specific, yes.

 2        Q.   Did you come to know that that's what it, in fact, meant at that

 3     time?

 4        A.   No, ma'am, I did not.

 5        Q.   Did you make inquiries as to what "ZM" meant at that time?

 6        A.   No, I did not.  We were verbally told that General Cermak was in

 7     charge.

 8        Q.   As I say, I'm coming on to that.  Let's deal with the third tight

 9     that you have ascribed to Mr. Cermak, and it's one of military governor?

10             MS. HIGGINS:  And this is in the third statement that was mad at

11     page 50, for Your Honours' reference.

12        Q.   Now, I know that you have had time to look over your statements

13     in detail.  Is that fair?

14        A.   That is it fair.

15        Q.   And would you agree with me that, in fact, the first time only

16     that you had used this term "military governor" was when you were told --

17     in your statements, was when you were told by the UN investigator member,

18     Thomas Elfgren, that it was, in fact, his understanding that General

19     Cermak was appointed as a military governor?

20             Do you recall that?

21        A.   I recall talking to Thomas Elfgren with regard to the topic of

22     General Cermak being the governor.  The terminology "governor" was also

23     used by various people in Sector South in the compound in particular.

24     But, yes, with regard to Thomas Elfgren, he mentioned it.

25        Q.   It is not whether he mentioned it, and I like to you to take the

Page 7776

 1     time over the break to review your statements.  My question is very

 2     different.

 3             My question is whether, in fact, the first time in your

 4     statements you used that term is after it had been suggested to you and

 5     after you had been told that that was his title by Thomas Elfgren, and

 6     let me make it clear:  If you can't answer that question now, please take

 7     the time over the break.

 8        A.   I'll take the time, ma'am.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come back to that.

10             When you're taking your time, perhaps could you also review, so

11     you can answer this question:  Isn't it right, in fact, that at no point

12     did he tell you during that interview the basis for his understanding of

13     that title?

14             Keep it with you for the break.  Thank you.

15        A.   Yes, ma'am.

16        Q.   Now, to be fair to you, and I understand the difficulties, I

17     think you were only in the region for seven weeks, one day in total?

18        A.   Yes, ma'am.

19        Q.   So not an awful lot of time to familiarize yourself; I accept.

20        A.   I believe I was very familiar with the area in the sense of

21     travelling around with the personalities, et cetera.  No, ma'am, I was

22     not; you are correct.

23        Q.   Is it perhaps the reason as to why you have given three different

24     titles to Mr. Cermak that you weren't actually sure of his precise title

25     or his function in the area?

Page 7777

 1        A.   As I just said, I was -- there was confusion with regard to

 2     personalities.  I was still learning the personalities.  There were

 3     different titles given to General Cermak.  And that's where I was, yes,

 4     ma'am.

 5        Q.   So you would accept that?

 6        A.   I would accept that yes, ma'am.  However, I do understand also

 7     that General Cermak was in charge of the area, as I understood it at that

 8     time.

 9        Q.   I'm going to be exploring -- let me make it very clear that it is

10     it not accepted from the Defence.  What I'm going to do is explore the

11     foundation of that in due course?

12        A.   I understand that, ma'am.

13        Q.   I will come on to that.

14             Were you ever informed by anyone, including the Prosecution, at

15     any stage that this was not, in fact, such a position of military

16     governor within the Croatian army?

17        A.   Not that I recall, no ma'am.

18        Q.   And as part of your function as information officer, did you ever

19     discover that as part of your inquiries at any stage?

20        A.   No, ma'am, I did not.

21        Q.   You told us you did not have a one-on-one with Mr. Cermak?

22        A.   No ma'am.

23        Q.   You say that you were, I think in your statement, at a couple of

24     meetings?

25        A.   I was in attendance only.

Page 7778

 1        Q.   Yes.  And I will come on to that again.  But is it right to say

 2     that Mr. Cermak never told you that he was military governor?

 3             Is it right?

 4        A.   That is right.  I never had a one-on-one with General Cermak.

 5        Q.   Is it right he never told you he was military governor?

 6        A.   I must just answered that, ma'am.  He never told me.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were aware, I think, given the proximity of

 8     your relationship with General Forand, that there were meetings between

 9     General Forand and Mr. Cermak.  Correct?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   And that there was also correspondence between the two men?

12        A.   I believe that's correct.  In fact, I saw a few of the letters

13     that went back and forth while I was in Sector South.

14        Q.   Now, having seen some of those letters and given the proximity of

15     your relationship to General Forand, did you ever come to know that in

16     the correspondence between the two gentlemen, Mr. Cermak never signed

17     himself off as using the term "military governor"?  Were you aware of

18     that?

19        A.   I was not aware of that.

20        Q.   Have you actually ever been shown the appointment document of

21     Mr. Cermak?

22        A.   No, I have not, ma'am.

23        Q.   Well, I'd like to give you the opportunity of seeing it because I

24     have a few more questions, and I think it is it only fair to you.

25        A.   Yes, ma'am.

Page 7779

 1             MS. HIGGINS:  So if I could call up, please, D31.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Berikoff, you see before you a decision issued by Franjo

 3     Tudjman, the president, dated the 5th of August, 1995.  And can you see

 4     in the decision there, at paragraph 1, it refers to the appointment of

 5     reserve Colonel-General Ivan Cermak, commander of the Knin garrison.

 6             Do you see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Now, as information officer again - and forgive me if I'm

 9     ascribing to you a role that you don't have; I'm sure you will correct

10     me - but as information officer, did you also look at or examine press

11     articles at the time?

12        A.   If I had -- if I had the time, I did.  However, following the

13     offensive, I was tasked to do many, many things, and being an information

14     officer at the time was less of a priority.  My taskings were to do other

15     things for the senior management.

16        Q.   I would like to give you a chance to see D36, please.

17             MS. HIGGINS:  If that could be pulled up onto the screen.

18             You see the article on your screen, Mr. Berikoff.

19        A.   Yes, I do ma'am.

20        Q.   Did you ever see this article at the time?  It is an article from

21     Slobodna Dalmacija, date Sunday, the 6th of August, 1995.

22        A.   This is the first time I'm seeing this article, ma'am.

23        Q.   I am bringing it to your attention because I need to check what

24     you were aware of as an information officer, you understand?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 7780

 1        Q.   And can you see in the first paragraph, three lines down, there

 2     is reference, in fact, made to the -- to the fact that the document we

 3     saw previously, which is the supreme commander of the Republic of

 4     Croatia, Dr. Franjo Tudjman, made the following decision, Colonel-General

 5     in reserve Ivan Cermak appointed commander of the Knin garrison?

 6        A.   Yes, I see that, ma'am.

 7        Q.   Now, I need to just press on a little more about the background

 8     knowledge that you had about Mr. Cermak in order to understand the titles

 9     that were ascribed to him.

10             Perhaps you can answer this for me:  Did you ever go to

11     Mr. Cermak's office?

12        A.   No, I did not, ma'am.

13        Q.   Is it right that you weren't, in fact, sure where his office was?

14        A.   That's correct.  I was of the assumption that it was up in the

15     Knin castle, but I was uncertain.  That is correct.

16        Q.   Did you come to know that, in fact, at any point it wasn't in the

17     castle, it was downtown Knin?

18        A.   Yes, I did late on, but I had never attended to that office,

19     ma'am.

20        Q.   So it would be fair to say that you had no real idea at all about

21     the size of his office or the facilities that were there.

22        A.   That's correct.

23             MS. HIGGINS:  Can I please call up D33.

24        Q.   I'll try and leave a pause between questions and answers so I

25     know I'm rattling through at speed, so forgive me.

Page 7781

 1        A.   No problem, ma'am.

 2        Q.   Now, I just want to show you, first of all, the front page of

 3     this document at --

 4             In fact, what I'd like to do is --

 5             MS. HIGGINS:  Can we go it e-court, page 5, of the original,

 6     please, and I know that the translation is page 9 in e-court.  It's, in

 7     fact -- can I give the top reference as that's not the page.  L002-1425,

 8     if that is of any assistance.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   I'm testing again the boundaries of your knowledge, Mr. Berikoff,

10     and I'd lake it know whether you have ever seen this document?

11        A.   No, I have not, ma'am.

12        Q.   This is a, for the record, report on troop members -- troop

13     numbers, rather.  A report on the number of personnel for the Knin

14     garrison headquarters dated the 31st of August; and, although, we don't

15     need to go to it for the purposes of e-court, I can show it to you, Mr.

16     Berikoff, if you like.  It is a document that was compiled by

17     Lance-Corporal Drago Juric.

18             And if you look on that first page, you can see the heading, "Per

19     establishment."  Can you see that?

20        A.   Yes, I do.

21        Q.   And you can see there an overall figure of nine.  Yep?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   During your time as information officer, or subsequently through

24     your involvement as a potential witness in this case, did you ever come

25     to know or hear that, in fact, the number of people subordinated to

Page 7782

 1     Mr. Cermak amounted to nine individuals as garrison commander of Knin?

 2        A.   No, ma'am, I did not.  I was not aware of that any of that

 3     information that you are passing on to me now.

 4        Q.   Right.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd like to ask you:  This document is about Knin

 6     garrison headquarters, and from the previous documents, I saw that there

 7     was a Knin garrison and there was a commander of Knin garrison.  This

 8     document is apparently about headquarters.

 9             Will we receive evidence that headquarters was the only part of

10     the Knin garrison that was subordinate to Mr. Cermak, because that's the

11     implicit suggestion in your question and I'd like to make it explicit

12     rather than implicit.

13             MS. HIGGINS:  It is our understanding of this document - and if

14     further explanation is required, I will obtain it in due course - it is

15     our understanding that this reference here, the reference is to the Knin

16     garrison headquarters, is the Knin garrison is the Knin garrison, in the

17     sense that that is the extent of the garrison, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But as I sometimes do --

19             MS. HIGGINS:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I share with you what comes into my mind, which

21     at the time is a question rather than an answer, and I would like to seek

22     this to be as clear as possible.

23             MS. HIGGINS:  I understand.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, were you ever told by anyone or did it come your

Page 7783

 1     attention that, in fact, if we focus on the position of garrison

 2     commander within the Croatian army, that it was a non-operational

 3     position?

 4        A.   Not at the time of the offensive, ma'am; it was not bought to my

 5     attention.  I later learned that not just on the Croatian side but my

 6     time of the OTP of the terminology.  It was absolutely nothing to do with

 7     this investigation, ma'am.

 8        Q.   I'm trying to give you the opportunity of seeing the context of

 9     documents from that time?

10        A.   Yes, ma'am.

11        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... for you to see.

12        A.   During this time, no, I was not, ma'am.

13        Q.   And also to put into context for you, the terminology that was,

14     in fact, used in terms of the appointment and the position because I want

15     to come on to deal with you with the function, you understand?

16        A.   Yes, I understand where you're going, ma'am.

17        Q.   Now, during your time in the region and, again, given your

18     proximity to General Forand, were you told or did you ever come to know

19     at any point that Mr. Cermak's job, in fact, amounted to three main

20     things, and they were these:  Firstly, to assist the international

21     community, the UN, elements of the UN, with the problems that they had.

22             Did you know that was part of his job?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   Secondly, to normalise life in Knin after the conflict.  Did you

25     know that was part of his job?

Page 7784

 1        A.   Yes.  It was also my understanding that it was in Knin and

 2     outside of Knin, is how it was explained to me while I was in the sector,

 3     ma'am.

 4        Q.   And did you also understand that it was his job to assist the

 5     displaced persons in the area?

 6        A.   Yes, ma'am, I did.

 7        Q.   In the conversations that you had with General Forand, did he

 8     ever tell that you Cermak told him that his responsibility was to restore

 9     normal life as quickly as possible?

10        A.   Yes.  General Forand had passed that information on to me, ma'am.

11        Q.   And, in fact, did you know that Mr. Cermak asked several

12     occasions for help from General Forand to normalise life in Knin?  Were

13     you aware of that?

14        A.   I'm aware that there were numerous meetings between the two

15     gentlemen.  I don't know what took place in the meetings, ma'am.

16             MS. HIGGINS:  D298, please, on the screen.

17        Q.   Now, you've told us in evidence today that you were privy to some

18     of the correspondence between these two gentlemen.  Correct?

19        A.   That's correct, ma'am.

20        Q.   Do you recall, thinking back, whether you saw this letter,

21     whereby Mr. Cermak requests the assistance of General Forand to repair

22     waterworks in Knin with the aim of normalizing life and work and return

23     of refugees?

24        A.   I don't know if I saw this letter -- this actual letter; however,

25     I am aware that General Forand tasked Major Bellerose to provide

Page 7785

 1     assistance to the local authorities.

 2        Q.   So you knew that was part of what was going on?

 3        A.   Yes, ma'am.

 4             MS. HIGGINS:  D299, please.

 5        Q.   Take a look at this letter and see if you saw this letter,

 6     please, Mr. Berikoff.

 7             You'll see that it refers to assistance requested by Mr. Cermak

 8     to help collect abandoned damaged motor vehicles, again, to restore

 9     normal work and life in the town of Knin.  Do you see that?

10        A.   I see it ma'am, but I don't recall seeing the letter, nor do I

11     recall General Forand tasking anybody within the -- within the

12     headquarters staff to assist with -- with moving vehicles or anything.

13     This letter I'm not aware of, ma'am.

14        Q.   I think you would agree with me, wouldn't you, given your job

15     being out and about in the region, the fact that you wouldn't -- didn't

16     recall this taking place doesn't mean that it didn't take place?

17        A.   That's correct, ma'am, because eventually the vehicles did get

18     removed.  So, somewhere along the line, something happened.

19        Q.   Thank you very much.

20             MS. HIGGINS:  And, finally, could I ask for P388 to be brought on

21     the screen, please?

22        Q.   Again, could you take a look and see if this one of the letter us

23     that may have seen.

24             MS. HIGGINS:  For the record, it is a letter from Mr. Cermak to

25     General Forand dated the 8th of August, 1995, asking for a complete list

Page 7786

 1     of refugees in the camp, so that he can address the problems and provide

 2     all the conditions of normal life for them.

 3        Q.   Was that one of the letters that you saw?

 4        A.   Once again, ma'am, I did not see this letter.  Most of the

 5     correspondence would have probably gone through Colonel Tymchuk; however,

 6     I am aware of the discussions that took place between the generals

 7     regarding the refugees.

 8        Q.   And would it be right to say that you were also aware that

 9     Mr. Cermak was involved in going to the UN camp on several occasions and

10     meeting with committees of internally displaced people to provide

11     assistance?

12             Would that be fair?

13        A.   That would be fair.  And in all fairness to the general as well,

14     he not only met with the committee, he also walked around the compound

15     itself where the refugees were located and spoke to numerous people.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   You're welcome, ma'am.

18        Q.   Going go back to your statement, in the first statement that you

19     made you, first of all, say that people - you don't say quite who -

20     people who knew General Cermak quite well is what you said then?

21        A.   Some of them did, ma'am.

22        Q.   Some of them didn't, correct?

23        A.   Some of them did, yes; and some of them did not, yes, ma'am.

24        Q.   Now, you also make several claims in your statements of where

25     Mr. Cermak had, as you put it, authority, ranging, to be fair to you,

Page 7787

 1     from a limited number of villages expanding it, in fact, to the whole of

 2     Sector South.  Do you recall that -- those references in your statement?

 3        A.   Yes, I do.

 4        Q.   In the conversations and contact that you had with General Forand

 5     and the information that you picked up on your daily business, are you

 6     aware of reports that were made by individuals denying not only his

 7     authority but also his existence?

 8        A.   I won't say -- denying his authority, I will agree with you,

 9     ma'am; denying his existence, I disagree with you.  There were numerous

10     places on many check-points that I was stopped at where the name "Cermak"

11     would be recognised; however, his authority was not at all.  And it would

12     take phone calls someplace else to get me released from a check-point or

13     allowed permission to continue on with my trip.

14        Q.   So name may have been recognised, but certainly not his

15     authority?

16        A.   Yes, ma'am, that is correct.

17        Q.   And, in fact, the name that worked, to be fair, was Major Juric's

18     name, wasn't it?

19        A.   Wherever I went in the sector, whether it was the northern

20     portion of the sector, southern portion, east or west, Major Juric's name

21     was the one recognised above all, yes, ma'am.

22        Q.   I would like to show you P631, please, which is a report by

23     General Forand, to show you where I'm getting this from, so that you can

24     see the context of my question.

25             MS. HIGGINS:  This is document that has been put in through the

Page 7788

 1     Prosecution, in fact, through Mr. Berikoff.  And I'd lake, please, to

 2     pull up -- the marking is 0090-1503, and it's, in fact, the second page

 3     of the document.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   If you just take a look at paragraph C --

 5             MS. HIGGINS:  Page 3 of the document.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Paragraph C on the screen in front of you.  Now, as I have said,

 7     this is a report submitted by General Forand up to HQ UNCRO.  And the

 8     report is the 9th of August, 1995, and you'll see there what's written by

 9     General Forand, which reads:  "General Cermak's total authority -- claims

10     to total authority over the area of Sector South and grants freedom of

11     movement.  HV units in CanBat 1 AOR, in particular Benkovac, deny General

12     Cermak's authority and even his existence."

13             Do you see that, Mr. Berikoff?

14        A.   Yes, I do, ma'am.

15        Q.   Now, given what you -- I'm going to come back in a moment to deal

16     with what you've raised about the check-points.

17             But it's right to say, isn't it, that you never saw any written

18     document during your time in that area, concerning Mr. Cermak's authority

19     over either people or places.  Is that right?

20        A.   That's correct, with one -- one instance, and that's when we

21     received the letter of freedom of movement, which I was under the

22     impression granted as promote throughout the complete sector, ma'am.

23        Q.   Did you understand that letter to be something that, in fact,

24     General Cermak was providing to assist in his role the international

25     community in that area?  Is that something that went through your mind?

Page 7789

 1        A.   Yes, it was, ma'am, because we were the UN, and it was at that

 2     time that I thought he was assisting the UN, yes.  So that is what I

 3     thought.  The letter was to allow us freedom of movement so we can

 4     ascertain the activities that were ongoing, the damage done, and assist

 5     people if we had to.

 6        Q.   And, in fact, even though your initial information impression may

 7     have been one of the letter as a document of authority, it's right and

 8     fair, isn't it, on reflection, to say that that authority was not

 9     reflected on the ground in those check-points?

10        A.   You're correct on that, ma'am.  Like I said, many check-points,

11     General Cermak was not recognised as far as his authority.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins, I'm looking at the clock, and in view

13     of the fact that we will have an early conclusion today, would this be a

14     suitable moment for a break?

15             MS. HIGGINS:  It would Your Honour.  And can I apologise to the

16     Court for having my slight back to the Bench.  I am sorry to do that.  It

17     is the positioning of myself and the witness that makes it difficult for

18     me to turn towards the Bench during questioning.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The outlay for the courtroom, you're not

20     blamed for that, Ms. Higgins.

21             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I have one question before we go to a break.

23             In the first two letters you had on the screen, the first letter

24     talks about an enclosure that is maps of the areas.  I do not remember,

25     at least I couldn't find it in e-court, whether this enclosure was part

Page 7790

 1     of the document as well and whether this map indicating the areas is

 2     available.

 3             MS. HIGGINS:  We certainly don't have the map, and I would be

 4     assisted if the Prosecution were able to help us.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  We will report, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 8             Then we will have a break, and we will resume at a quarter to

 9     1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins, please proceed.

13             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Berikoff, just to come back to one point, did you have a

15     chance over the break to have look at your statements?

16        A.   Yes, I did, ma'am.

17        Q.   And am I right when I say that the first time that "military

18     governor" is used is at page 50 of your third statement?

19        A.   That is correct.

20        Q.   And it was suggested to you by Thomas Elfgren, a member of the

21     Prosecution?

22        A.   It was during Thomas Elfgren's interview, yes.

23        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  And am I also right that no basis was provided

24     by him to you as to his conclusion that you agreed with?

25        A.   No, there wasn't.

Page 7791

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             If I can just take you back now to the subject of Mr. Cermak's

 3     authority, as you have alleged?

 4             Just let me establish this, Mr. Berikoff:  Would it be fair to

 5     say and accurate that you neither heard nor saw Mr. Cermak order any

 6     troops on the ground, whether they be police or army?  Would that be

 7     right?

 8        A.   Your assumption is correct.

 9        Q.   You had, however, seen Major Juric, you heard and seen him give

10     orders on the ground, had you not?

11        A.   On numerous occasions, ma'am.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'm not going to deal with freedom of movement

13     in any great detail with you, given what you have told me in the last

14     session.

15             But can I just establish this:  Were you aware, as information

16     officer, that freedom of movement was, in fact, negotiated in Zagreb and

17     was available in the form of the Akashi agreement?  Is that something

18     that you knew about?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And the letter that was issued to you by Mr. Cermak was, in fact,

21     a facilitating letter, a transmission of what had been agreed at a higher

22     level.  Would you understand that to be fair?

23        A.   I'd understand that to be correct, ma'am.

24        Q.   And, in fact, just to put it in its full context, it is right to

25     say that you had described Mr. Cermak's letter as a joke?

Page 7792

 1        A.   Yes, it was.  Because whenever it was presented at any of the

 2     check-points or any time we tried to use that letter for freedom of

 3     movement, it was virtually disregarded.

 4        Q.   And it's also right that, in fact, General Forand asked you not

 5     to use the letter as much as possible, but just try to push the envelope.

 6     Correct?

 7        A.   Yes, ma'am.  That is a correct statement.

 8        Q.   I'd like to now turn to a new topic, which is the denial,

 9     according to you, of crimes by Mr. Cermak and your allegation that could

10     you have stopped them.  And to be fair to you again, Mr. Berikoff, I'm

11     going to check with you whether or not you have been privy to certain

12     documentation which provides a context to my questions.

13             Do you understand?

14        A.   Yes, I understand.

15        Q.   Now, from your statements, we know that you have said that

16     Mr. Cermak was told about burning and looting and that it must stop by

17     General Forand.  Correct?

18        A.   That's correct.

19        Q.   And just so that you know, we are informed in this courtroom of

20     correspondence that took place between the two gentlemen, all right?

21        A.   Yes, ma'am.

22        Q.   Now, in your third statement at page 31, if you need to lock at

23     it, on a couple of occasions, you say, you were present when General

24     Cermak and General Forand had their discussions.

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 7793

 1        Q.   Can you help me with when?

 2        A.   I don't recall the dates, ma'am.  I know there were a couple of

 3     times when I was in the room when they had discussed the issue.  There

 4     were other occasions when I stood outside with the General's personal

 5     body-guard, and was not privy to the information that went on in the

 6     room.

 7        Q.   Trouble is, we can't find your name and we have a lot of reports.

 8     And if could you give me a date, we could and find you.  Do you

 9     understand?

10        A.   I cannot provide a date, ma'am.

11        Q.   You say, in your third statement, that during this conversation

12     you say you were privy to, you didn't pay any attention to it.  Why was

13     that, if you were information officer?

14        A.   That was at a much higher level than I was interested in.  I was

15     interested in the situation on the ground itself, and that was between

16     the senior management.  So, therefore, my interests were elsewhere,

17     ma'am.

18        Q.   I know that's a long time ago now, over 13 years.  Could it, in

19     fact, be the case that what you're referring to in terms of being present

20     at a conversation is, in fact, having been told about what was said?

21        A.   No, ma'am.  I was in the office on a couple of occasions with

22     General Cermak and a number of other people and General Forand.  Most of

23     the time, as I indicated, I was outside in the hall or other places with

24     his personal body-guard.

25        Q.   Let go to the specific, if we may, of what you say about the

Page 7794

 1     crime denials.

 2             If you will take it from me, I will try and put into a nutshell

 3     what it is is that you've said; and, of course, Mr. Berikoff, if you wish

 4     to check it, you may do so and I can give you the reference.

 5        A.   That's fine, ma'am.  I will take your word.

 6        Q.   The first statement that you give, you refer to:  "Cermak denied

 7     knowledge of any of his troops conducting the looting and arson.  I would

 8     disagree with the argument that those who were responsible for the

 9     criminal acts were criminals out of control.  There might have been

10     someone who to the opportunity to take revenge, but they would have been

11     very, very few.

12             Now, in that statement, and, again, I'm referring to the

13     document, can you confirm for me, Mr. Berikoff, that you don't identify

14     who you mean by "troops"?

15        A.   That's correct, ma'am.

16        Q.   Correct.  Now, to put it in context, and to be fair to you, I

17     want to give you an opportunity to look at what was recorded about that

18     revenge comment at the time.

19             MS. HIGGINS:  And I'd like, please, to have on the screen D56.

20        Q.   Just to put it into context, while that is being uploaded, this

21     is a report of the 18th of August, 1995, written by Mr. Al-Alfi.

22             You know ho was, do you?

23        A.   I don't recall the name, ma'am.  If you give me his position, I

24     may recall who it was.

25        Q.   He was referred to see at the PHAC?

Page 7795

 1        A.   I'm not aware of that acronym, ma'am.

 2        Q.   He was involved in writing of the reports.  This reports goes

 3     from him to UNCRO HQ Zagreb which you can see on the screen, and he was

 4     present at many meetings at which General Forand was present.

 5             MS. HIGGINS:  If could I ask, please, for the third page of this

 6     document to be put before the screen.

 7        Q.   And just to be clear, when I say the PHAC, the UN head of civil

 8     affairs, all right?

 9             If you can just have a look now at the second paragraph there,

10     because what he is referring to here is a meeting with General Cermak.

11     Other participants, in fact, in this meeting were Flynn, Tymchuk, and

12     Roberts, all of whom you know.  Correct?

13        A.   Yes, sir.

14        Q.   Sir?

15        A.   Oh, yes, ma'am.  I'm sorry.  My apologies.

16        Q.   If we can just now look at the second paragraph which begins:

17     "During the meeting," you'll see that it states:  "I also brought the

18     attention of General Cermak our concern about the continuing reports of

19     houses and farms set on fire."

20             Do you see that?

21        A.   Yes, I see that.

22        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] "... and looting, and asked him about the

23     measures taken from his side to stop such acts.  General Cermak shared

24     this concern with us and expressed his unhappiness about its

25     continuation.  He promised tough action against those who commit such

Page 7796

 1     acts.  He also explained that some of these acts may be carried out by

 2     civilians who returned to the area and seek revenge, taking advantage of

 3     the lifting of restrictions on their movement in the area."

 4             Now, sharing with you the context of those remarks, would you

 5     agree with me that it was, in fact, not a denial, but that document from

 6     the time reflects that General Cermak shared concerns, expressed his

 7     unhappiness, and he does promise action?  Do you see that?  Would you

 8     agree?

 9        A.   I see that in the report, yes, ma'am.

10             MS. HIGGINS:  Now, I'd like, please, to upload D151 to deal with

11     further alleged denials.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins, in the previous document, we see some

13     comment on the first page, and it might not have caught my attention

14     earlier, like Cermak versus Mayor of Knin.  I don't know whether that is

15     a Court case.  I don't know where it comes from.  But it might that be it

16     has been explained to us at an earlier stage.

17             MS. HIGGINS:  I'm afraid, Your Honour, it is not in evidence.  It

18     is certainly not a note that has been made on the document from the

19     Defence.  It was actually on the document when we received it from the

20     Prosecution.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, then, it remains a mystery for the time

22     being.

23             MS. HIGGINS:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

25             MS. HIGGINS:  D151.

Page 7797

 1        Q.   This is a report, again, from Mr. Al-Alfi up to UNCRO HQ Zagreb,

 2     dated 24th of August, 1995.  And this is it a report concerning a meeting

 3     between General Forand and General Cermak, and you'll see there what

 4     General Forand has referred to General Cermak as.

 5             What I'm concerned is the second page.

 6             MS. HIGGINS:  If that can be uploaded, please, paragraph 5.

 7        Q.   Looking again at the context of the meeting, it refers to the

 8     following, if can you read it through.  It concerns the bringing of

 9     attention to the burning houses and looting in the area to General

10     Cermak, asking him to stop such acts.

11             The record reads that he accepted this fact regarding the

12     continuation of such incidents and attributed them to person who entered

13     the area wearing HV uniforms and to civilians taking revenge.  He also

14     attributed such facts to ongoing acts -- rather, to ongoing efforts by

15     the Croatian army who are still clearing the terrain and capturing the

16     rebels.

17             "General Cermak made it clear that in his opinion, the area is

18     very vast and he would be lying if he told us nothing of the sort would

19     continue to happen but he informed us that he has already issued strict

20     orders to the civilian and military personnel to stop such acts."

21             Now, would you agree with me, Mr. Berikoff, having looked at this

22     contemporaneous document from the time, that importantly, again, in this

23     context Mr. Cermak was admitting that crimes were taking place?

24        A.   I would agree in that context, ma'am, and there were times when I

25     learned from General Forand that, in fact, General Cermak had said that

Page 7798

 1     this was going on.  He was not able to stop all of it, and that it was

 2     possibly as reported in that report.  Yes, ma'am.

 3             MS. HIGGINS:  D59, please.

 4        Q.   Now, I think it is right to say that would you have come across

 5     certain press articles, but you clarified to me that were spending most

 6     of your time out on the terrain.  Is that right?

 7        A.   That's correct, yes.

 8        Q.   D59, as it is coming up on to the screen, I'd like to ask you

 9     whether you got to see this article in any form.  And it's an article

10     dated the 7th of September, 1995, entitled:  "Cermak, there is no place

11     for looters in the HV, Croatian army."

12             Did you see that at that time?

13        A.   I may have.  I don't recall the article itself, but I may have or

14     I may have heard about it, yes, ma'am.

15        Q.   Looking at the context of that first paragraph, because that is

16     really what I'm interested in, according to Colonel-General Ivan Cermak,

17     commander of the Knin assembly point:  "A large-scale operation has been

18     launched to resolve problems relating to the illegal appropriation of

19     apartments and the looting and torching homes, acts regrettably most

20     often committed by members of the Croatian army.  Some ten warrants have

21     already been issued for arresting and bringing before the military court

22     in Split such soldiers who, as General Cermak stated, defile the Croatian

23     army and have no place in it."

24             You would agree with me, Mr. Berikoff, not a denial of crime, is

25     it?

Page 7799

 1        A.   I would have to agree with you, according to that article, yes,

 2     ma'am.

 3        Q.   Yeah.  As well as press articles, were you also sometimes privy

 4     to reports in the media concerning television or anything like that?

 5        A.   No, I was not, ma'am.  I did not watch television while I was

 6     there.  We didn't have access to it once the offensive started.

 7        Q.   What I'd like to do is to show you a clip because it goes to this

 8     issue that you're raising.

 9             MS. HIGGINS:  This is a clip that has been served, in fact, Your

10     Honour, by the Prosecution.  It's the subject of recent disclosure.  It's

11     2D05-0001.  And before it is played, if I can just assist in terms of its

12     provenance, we understand from its context that it would have been

13     perhaps a month after Operation Storm, we estimate in the first week of

14     September, and it's a HRAT video news broadcast served by the Prosecution

15     last month.

16             Your Honours, transcripts - or rather, translations have been

17     provided to the both.  It is a very short clip, if I could ask for it to

18     be played.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The video-clip can be played.

20                           [Videotape played]

21             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, before I pose the question, can I say

22     that there was no transcript coming across in my earpiece; however, what

23     I would ask that this clip be exhibited along with the transcript of the

24     video, so that it can be readily recognised to what was stated, if that

25     is appropriate.

Page 7800

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I must admit I was reading rather the translation,

 2     rather than listening to it.  One of the problems is that we -- I don't

 3     know whether there was French translation provided.  I'm asking the

 4     French booth.  I have difficulties in seeing who is exactly behind what

 5     smoke window, but was there any spoken French so we have a complete

 6     translation?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  There was French interpretation, Your

 8     Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I see the English, therefore, has not been

10     transcribed.  Now, we can resolve this in various ways.  If you would

11     tender the English transcript and if we have the French translation on

12     the French audio, that would mean that it will be transcribed soon,

13     because as far as I understand - but correct me if I'm wrong,

14     Mr.  Registrar - the French transcripts are made on the basis of the

15     audio recordings that are sent to a specialised agency, that we would

16     then have a full record, and by the explanation I now give, it is

17     explained on the record as well.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So we now have, for the completeness of the

20     record, we have the B/C/S and English transcripts together with the

21     video.  On the video, by the way, the -- no, the English did not spoken.

22             We have that B/C/S and English transcript then tendered being

23     part of the record; we have for the French, we'll have the French

24     transcript of the words spoken by the French interpreters, which gives a

25     complete record.

Page 7801

 1             So we can proceed.

 2             MS. HIGGINS:  I'm grateful, Your Honour.

 3             Could I ask for the video to be exhibited, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, I take it that it was obtained recently

 5     by an RFA, if I understand.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  That's correct, Your Honour, and there's no

 7     objection.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection.  Then the video accompanied by the

 9     English transcript and the B/C/S transcript, Mr. Registrar, that would

10     be?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D731, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D731 is admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MS. HIGGINS:  I'm grateful.

15        Q.   To put this into context, Mr. Berikoff, you have seen now a

16     number of clips and, again, contemporaneous materials from the time, and

17     you have heard what General Cermak has had to say about crimes that were

18     brought to his attention.

19             On the back of that, it's right to say, isn't it, that you

20     yourself, within the course of the statements on four occasions - and

21     I'll bring them to your attention - it's right that you had doubts even

22     then about his ability to stop the crimes.

23        A.   I have to agree with you, because as I travelled throughout the

24     sector, even after these clips that you have shown me and the various

25     reports, throughout all of my travels, and I travelled extensively

Page 7802

 1     throughout the sector, looting was still ongoing and it did not stop.  It

 2     was still being conducted by the HV, the special police, and paramilitary

 3     organisations such as warlords.

 4        Q.   Those doubts that you have expressed, as I've stated, are to you

 5     found, in fact, in your first statement, your third statement on two

 6     occasions, and the last statement where you say:  "I believe that General

 7     Cermak either did not have the authority to stop the burning and looting

 8     or didn't want to stop it"?

 9        A.   That's correct, ma'am.  I believe, at that time, his authority --

10     people just disregarded it in many instances, ma'am.

11        Q.   Leading on from the disregard of authority, what I'd like to do

12     now is to just give some chance to take a look at the diagram that you

13     prepared, if you recall, and that's P745.

14             MS. HIGGINS:  If that could be brought up on to the screen,

15     please.

16        Q.   Now, just as a little bit of background to this diagram, would it

17     be fair to say that you didn't receive any specific training,

18     Mr. Berikoff, on the Croatian army or the police structure during your

19     time in the area?

20        A.   During the time in the area, no, I did not ma'am.  Basically, we

21     didn't have any, and it was one of my taskings to go out and see what

22     units were in the area prior to the offensive, and, again, after to see

23     what activity was going on and who conducting what activity, if possible.

24        Q.   And to summarize what you told me before, your focus was on the

25     territory not the individuals.  Is that right?

Page 7803

 1        A.   That is it correct.  The personality issue was going to come on

 2     later had I stayed on in Sector South, but I moved on to Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   Now, you prepared the diagram at the time of your first interview

 4     in 1996?

 5        A.   Yes, I did, ma'am.

 6        Q.   And there's a name on your statement.  Can you tell me who

 7     Cameron Troy Hillier who was present during that statement?  Do you

 8     remember who he was?

 9        A.   He was a Canadian Military Police police corporal, I believe,

10     ma'am, that was just in attendance as a witness to the interview because

11     I was in the military at the time and the military police were required

12     to be there.

13        Q.   Now, the diagram, was that made at the conclusion of the

14     interview?

15        A.   No, it wasn't.  It was done right at the time that I was asked if

16     I could provide a diagram, not after the interview, ma'am.

17        Q.   So it was while the interview was going on?

18        A.   Yes, it was, ma'am.

19        Q.   And who had input into the diagram, please?

20        A.   Just I did, ma'am.

21        Q.   Okay.  Can you explain to me an immediate difficulty with this

22     diagram.  Perhaps can you help me.  At the time that you made this

23     diagram, it was at the time of the first statement; whereas, you recall

24     you describe Mr. Cermak as a mayor which, as we know, is a civilian

25     position, and I think you would agree with me that that is very different

Page 7804

 1     from what we see on your diagram, which refers to, and to be fair to you,

 2     probably the military leadership in Sector South.

 3             Now, just to be clear, Mr. Berikoff, all I want at the moment is

 4     the reason why this difference appears, not the basis for what you have

 5     put down on that document there.  Can you help with that in any way?

 6        A.   I'll try.  Because he was known as General Cermak, you could have

 7     called him anything you wanted at the time.  He was still the senior

 8     military person in the area, as far as I was aware of.  Therefore, I put

 9     him as the person in charge of the military, whether he was called mayor,

10     governor, pope, or anything.

11        Q.   You understand that mayor, governor, pope, or anything is not

12     military is it, Mr. Berikoff?

13        A.   That's correct, ma'am, but he was also a general, so he was is

14     military.

15        Q.   Well, that is an assumption you made it terms of -- it may have

16     been a title.

17        A.   It wasn't only his title.  When he came to the compound, he was

18     in a military uniform, so I saw him as a soldier, ma'am.

19        Q.   I understand that, and I don't take any disputes with you there,

20     Mr. Berikoff, in fact --

21        A.   Thank you ma'am.

22        Q.   -- in terms of the uniform and the title.  Don't misunderstand

23     me, okay?  We agree on that.

24        A.   Yes, ma'am.

25        Q.   My difficulty was on the difference between the reference in the

Page 7805

 1     statement and what you've put down here.  Do you understand?

 2        A.   Yes, I understand.  But my difficulty is that he was in uniform,

 3     wearing the rank of general; therefore, I assumed that he was in charge

 4     of the military, ma'am.

 5        Q.   And at that time, to be fair again, you had very limited

 6     information available to you, in terms of any document resources.  Would

 7     that be right?

 8        A.   Yes, ma'am.

 9        Q.   Now, before I just take you a little bit more into the detail of

10     this document, I'd like to ask you whether or not, during the course of

11     your contact with the Prosecution, you've ever been given the chance to

12     retract this document on the basis of its inaccuracy or contradiction to

13     the Prosecution's own case?

14        A.   No, I have not, ma'am.  Because once I started employment at the

15     Tribunal, my contact with the investigation team that were working on the

16     Cermak, Gotovina, Markac trial was extremely limited.  There were only

17     two occasions when I had conduct with the team regarding the case.

18        Q.   I understand that.  And I think you would agree with me that this

19     a rough diagram rather than a considered piece?

20        A.   Absolutely, a draft, draft copy.

21        Q.   Something one might write on the back of a cigarette box,

22     et cetera?

23        A.   You're correct in that assumption.

24        Q.   Now you said yesterday that the basis for the hierarchy was

25     information that you had gathered and information that you had received

Page 7806

 1     from UNCRO.  Do you recall that?

 2        A.   Yes, I do, ma'am.

 3        Q.   Tell me if you're not, Mr. Berikoff, but are you in a position to

 4     give me the name of any two-legged human sources for what you've written

 5     down here, the names?

 6        A.   Now Captain Williams who was at the Canadian -- he was a Canadian

 7     G2 in Zagreb.  He would have provided some information while I was in

 8     country, trying to ascertain the order of battle.

 9             Naturally, Colonel Tymchuk, General Forand, General Leslie.

10        Q.   Just stop there for a moment.

11        A.   Yes, ma'am.

12        Q.   I'm concerned about your word "would have," as can you

13     understand.  We're concerned here, Mr. Berikoff, with, as I know you

14     know, hard fact, all right?

15        A.   Yes, ma'am.

16        Q.   I don't want "would have."  I'd like to know the names precisely

17     of those people who provided this information to you.  If you can't give

18     it to me, just say so?

19        A.   I cannot give it to you, ma'am.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Just to confirm one point which I think I may have

21     raised earlier, please confirm for me that there are no documentary

22     sources at all, be it orders or anything else, that forms the basis of

23     what you have written on this document?

24        A.   No, there's not, ma'am.  That is it strictly my own assumption

25     from that period in time.

Page 7807

 1        Q.   And, finally, on this aspect, could you please name me any

 2     Croatian human source that you had spoken to that directly contributed to

 3     the creation of this document, if any.  If you can't, just say so.

 4        A.   No, I cannot, ma'am.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Ivan Juric and Ivan Cermak, let's deal with that

 6     briefly, if we may.

 7             If we look at the Ivan Juric box, you have put down here,

 8     "special police," and I think you have told us, however, in your various

 9     statements that he said to you he was head of the military police.  Do

10     you agree that what's down on this document is inconsistent with what

11     you've previously said?

12        A.   It's not inconsistent; it's, yes, I have the words "special

13     police," but I also saw Major Juric on numerous occasions in grey

14     coverall uniforms, which I assumed were part of the special police, and

15     every time we spoke to him, he was dealing with both the military police

16     and the special police, ma'am.

17        Q.    So to use your words, it was what you'd assumed?

18        A.   Yes, ma'am.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Who appointed Major Juric; do you know that?

20        A.   No, I do not, ma'am.

21        Q.   As information officer, did you take any time or energy, or were

22     you unable to do so to find out who he was?

23        A.   I was unable to do so.  I was tasked otherwise.  If anybody had,

24     it would have been Captain Hill that had any closer contact with Major

25     Juric.

Page 7808

 1        Q.   Again --

 2        A.   Captain Geoff Hill.

 3        Q.   Sorry.

 4        A.   Oh.  I'm sorry.

 5        Q.   I'm moving on to my next question.

 6             Again, just to be sure, you've put a line down there between

 7     General Cermak and Major Juric.  But so that I'm sure, it's right to say

 8     that there isn't a single document or anything that you have seen to

 9     support that line.  Is that right?

10        A.   That's correct, ma'am.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you help me with this.  You have

12     subordinated to Juric, according to the lines that you have drawn and

13     what you said yesterday, the local Croatian police and the special

14     police.  Do you see that?

15        A.   Yes, I do, ma'am.

16        Q.   Can you help me with this.  Who was the commander of the police

17     station in Knin; do you know?

18        A.   I have no idea, ma'am.

19        Q.   Okay.  And what about the chief of Knin-Kotar police

20     administration?

21        A.   I have no idea, ma'am.

22        Q.   Perhaps you can help me with the chief of the Zadar-Knin police

23     administration.

24        A.   No, I cannot, ma'am.

25        Q.   All right.  Well, let's try the deputy minister of the interior.

Page 7809

 1        A.   No, I cannot, ma'am.

 2        Q.   One more, the minister of interior at the time?

 3        A.   No, I cannot.

 4        Q.   All right.  I'll stop there.

 5             Now, I'd like you to look at a Prosecution organigram, which is

 6     P500 for the screen, please, just to give you a chance to see what the

 7     Prosecution have entered into this case, in terms of what we're talking

 8     about here which is hierarchy.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  If I could, Your Honour, I'm not sure what the

10     relevance is of educating the witness as to what the Prosecution's theory

11     of the hierarchy is.  He has clearly indicated what his assumption of it

12     was.  The basis for that has been explored.

13             I don't see how it will assist the Chamber to show the witness

14     what the Prosecution thinks about that particular portion of the case.

15             MS. HIGGINS:  I'm not asking him that, Your Honour.  That is not

16     my intention.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then ...

18             I think, as a matter of fact, what Ms. Higgins did is to give a

19     context or a framework in which she would put questions to the witness.

20     Whether it was very wise to say to give a chance to the witness to say,

21     You can comment on what the Prosecution puts, let's listen to the

22     questions, Mr. Russo, and then see whether there are any further

23     objections.

24             But before doing so, I'd like to, first of all, ask your

25     attention for the pauses, which message appears on our screen,

Page 7810

 1     Ms. Higgins.

 2             MS. HIGGINS:  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Second, to the clock.  I said we would finish today

 4     by 1.30.  So before starting perhaps a new series of questions, perhaps

 5     we should conclude for the day and give the usual instructions to the

 6     witness.

 7             Mr. Berikoff --

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We will finish for the day.  I again instruct you

10     that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony, whether

11     already given or still to be given, and we'd like to see you back

12     tomorrow morning, the -- witness the 3rd of September, 9.00, in this same

13     courtroom.

14             And we adjourn until then and resume tomorrow, 9.00, same

15     courtroom.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.29 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 3rd of

18                           September, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.