Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10378

 1                           Monday, 13 October 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12             Mr. Russo, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

13             MR. RUSSO:  We are, Mr. President?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No protective measures.

15             MR. RUSSO:  That's correct, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I take it that you are calling ...

17             MR. RUSSO:  Yes.  The Prosecution calls Murray Douglas Dawes,

18     Witness 104.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Dawes.  Before you give evidence

22     in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a

23     solemn declaration, that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

24     nothing but truth.

25             The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite to you make that

Page 10379

 1     solemn declaration.

 2             THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

 3     whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

 5             Mr. Dawes, you will first be examined by Mr. Russo.  Mr. Russo is

 6     counsel for the Prosecution, and you will find him to your right.

 7             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           WITNESS:  MURRAY DOUGLAS DAWES

 9                           Examination by Mr. Russo:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dawes.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   Can you please state your full name for the record?

13        A.   Murray Douglas Dawes.

14        Q.   Mr. Dawes, do you recall giving two statements to the ICTY, the

15     first dated 21 and 22 August of 1996; and the second dated the 2nd of

16     April, 2008?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5502.

19        Q.   Mr. Dawes, do you recognise this as your statement you made

20     21 and 22 August of 1996?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the Presiding Judge's microphone be

22     turned off, please.

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.

24             MR. RUSSO:

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 10380

 1             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could now please have 65

 2     ter 5503.

 3        Q.   Looking at the screen, Mr. Dawes, do you recognise this as the

 4     statement you gave dated 2 April 2008?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Dawes, did you have a chance to review both of those

 7     statements prior to coming to court today?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   And in that review, can you say whether those statements

10     accurately reflect what you said to the investigators at the time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And in the course of reviewing those statements, did you note a

13     few corrections and clarifications?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15             MR. RUSSO:  If I could, I'd like to take you briefly through

16     those, the first being, I believe, you indicated that references in your

17     statements to WO or Warrant Officer Engleby are incorrect, and that

18     Sergeant Engleby was, by rank, a Sergeant at that time.  Is that correct?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   And we don't need to move to these, I don't believe; but on page

21     7 of your first statement, Mr. Dawes, it indicates that General Forand

22     authorised the dispensation of fuel to civilians who came to the gate of

23     the UN compound on the evening of 4 August, and you assumed that

24     approximately 3.000 litres of fuel was given out to these civilians.

25             And I believe you indicated you wanted to clarify the fact that

Page 10381

 1     you were not certain of the amount of 3.000 litres and that you could not

 2     recall where that figure came from.  Is that right?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   And I believe you also wanted to add, with regard to the

 5     dispensation of fuel, that General Leslie had told you also at that time

 6     that fuel either had been given out or would be given out to ARSK

 7     soldiers in order allow them to leave the area of Sector South.  Is that

 8     right?

 9        A.   That is correct.

10        Q.   And again on page 7, you stated:  "The shelling commenced at

11     approximately 0500 hours in the morning of the 5th August.  Again, it was

12     heavy and direct fire as well."

13             I believe you indicated that you wanted to clarify that your

14     reference to "direct fire" meant tank fire that you could hear outside of

15     the town of Knin.  Is that right?

16        A.   That is correct.

17        Q.   Again, on page 7, in that same portion, you indicate that:

18     "Approximately 50 mainly old people from the front line areas had

19     gathered in front of the main gate."

20             And I believe you wanted to clarify that these were civilians who

21     lived in the villages near the front line.  Is that right?

22        A.   That is correct.

23        Q.   And, finally, on page 11 of your first statement, you discuss

24     finding the body of a man named Milan Babic in a hamlet in the area of

25     Prijici.  I believe you wanted to clarify that you were told by the two

Page 10382

 1     women who showed you where this body was that Milan Babic was a Croat,

 2     and that the hamlet in which he was found was a Croat hamlet which had

 3     been under the protection of the UN prior to Operation Storm.  Is that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That is correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, may I take to you page 4, line 3, I did

 8     not hear you.  Could you please repeat what you said there.  I believe

 9     you also wanted to add that "with regard to the," and then it reads

10     "disp" on the transcript.  I missed that portion.

11             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Mr. President.  That was intended to read "with

12     regard to the dispensation of fuel that had been given out ..."

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             MR. RUSSO:

15        Q.   Mr. Dawes, taking into account the corrections and clarifications

16     we've just reviewed, is the information provided in both of your

17     statements, all taken together, true and accurate, to the best of your

18     knowledge?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   And if you were examined with regard to those same matters here

21     in Court today, would your answers be the same as in those statements?

22        A.   Yes, it would.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, at this time, I would move for the

25     admission of 65 ters 5502 and 5503.

Page 10383

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  From the written submissions, I understand that

 2     there is no objection against admission.

 3             Mr. Registrar, the August 1996 statement would be number ...

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P980, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  P980 is admitted into evidence.

 6             The April 2008 statement.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P981, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P981 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             If I could please have the assistance of the court usher, I'd

11     like to hand hard copies of the statements to Mr. Dawes.

12             With the Court's permission, I would like to read a relatively

13     brief 92 ter summary.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

15             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

16             Murray Douglas Dawes was an UN accommodation officer employed by

17     the Canadian agency Care Canada and was based there Knin from May of 1994

18     to October 1995.  In the days immediately prior to Operation Storm, he

19     observed that the majority of inhabitants in Knin were women, children,

20     and the elderly since most of the men were at the front lines.

21             He visited the main ARSK barracks in Knin on several occasions

22     prior to Operation Storm, including on 3 August 1995, and observed that

23     there were not many soldiers and no heavy weapons in the town.  Mr. Dawes

24     was present in Knin during the artillery attack and made several trips

25     into Knin on 4 August to rescue UN and local civilian employees.  He

Page 10384

 1     observed and felt the effects of the artillery and rockets which were

 2     fired into the town, including observing dead civilians and shelling

 3     damage in the residential and farming areas in Knin.

 4             On the afternoon of 4 August, Mr. Dawes was slightly injured by a

 5     shell which impacted approximately ten metres from the ECMM headquarters,

 6     which was located in the area near the hospital.  He observed some ARSK

 7     soldiers in Knin on 4 August, some of whom had attempted to hijack his

 8     APC and others who had abandoned Strmica to assist in the withdrawal of

 9     troops from the front line.

10             On 6 August, Mr. Dawes travelled into Knin and witnessed

11     HV soldiers and civilian policemen openly looting the town.  There were

12     individuals in orange coveralls cleaning the streets and pavements and

13     other individuals in hazmat-type outfits removing dead bodies and spoiled

14     food from the houses.  Also on 6 August, he travelled to Vrbnik and

15     Kistanje where he witnessed HV soldiers looting and destroying houses

16     from the inside.  Along the road he travelled on 6 August, he saw many

17     dead civilians who he believes were killed by small-arms fire because of

18     the bullet holes in and around their vehicles.

19             On 8 August, he travelled along the Knin-Drnis road where he

20     witnessed HV soldiers and civilians looting, as well as what he described

21     as well-disciplined Croatian troops in black uniforms burning houses.

22             Mr. President, that concludes the 92 ter summary.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.

24             MR. RUSSO:

25        Q.   Mr. Dawes, I would like to begin with your position in the United

Page 10385

 1     Nations mission in Croatia.  Can you please tell the Court what your job

 2     was.

 3        A.   Part of my job was to assist UN personnel in finding housing in

 4     the Knin area.  That would entail negotiating lease terms with the

 5     landlord, and then setting up contracts with that person so a payment

 6     could be made each month to the landlord.  The main bulk of my job was

 7     the accommodating of the four battle groups in Sector South:  One a

 8     Canadian, one an Jordanian, a Kenyan, and a Czech Battalion.

 9             And wherever they occupied land, mostly along the Zone of

10     Separation, I would set up the lease with the local owner of the land, so

11     that the military could occupy that territory, and then I would bring

12     services to those plots of land, such as electricity, water, et cetera.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were you or did you engage in verification of

14     particular pieces of land or property to ensure who was the owner of that

15     property?

16        A.   Yes, we did.  It was a difficult process.  The so-called owner of

17     the land would present me with a title deed.  I would then take it to the

18     local government office that had control title deeds, and I would match

19     it up with what they had on record to ascertain whether or not it was the

20     real owner or not.

21        Q.   And can you tell the Court where this government office was?

22        A.   There was only one office.  It was downtown Knin, very close to

23     what I would call the parliament building, on the main street.

24        Q.   And the individuals to whom you would take these titles for

25     verification, were they civilian authorities or military?

Page 10386

 1        A.   Civilian.

 2        Q.   From your dealings with these civilian authorities, did you learn

 3     what the approximate population of Knin was in the days preceding

 4     Operation Storm?

 5        A.   Yes.  The figure varied from 15 to 17.000 to 30.000 people.

 6        Q.   And do you know why the figure varied so greatly between

 7     approximately 15 to 17 to 30.000?

 8        A.   No, I don't.  I can make assumptions because the --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour, if he doesn't know, I would

10     object to any speculation.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first hear on what he will base the

12     assumptions and then perhaps see whether he has any knowledge of the

13     facts, and then whether we should continue with the assumptions is

14     another matter.

15             Is there anything that apparently you made assumptions based on

16     what.

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, when the Croatian military was taking

18     over Grahovo and coming up on the east side of Knin, there was a large

19     swell in the population of Knin as people were leaving their local

20     villages.  So the population definitely increased dramatically.  To what

21     exact amount, I would not know.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Dawes, do you know what the general makeup of this population

24     of both people coming from other areas and in Knin in the days

25     immediately preceding Operation Storm?

Page 10387

 1        A.   Women, children, old people, no fighting age males.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to talk now a bit about the fuel situation

 3     in the RSK prior to Operation Storm.  What can you tell the Court

 4     regarding your knowledge of the fuel situation?

 5        A.   That fuel was very precious, that the black market was the only

 6     where you could purchase fuel now, and that the petrol stations were

 7     effectively closed down.  You purchased your petrol by purchasing

 8     one-litre Pepsi bottles that was filled with diesel or gasoline, and the

 9     price ranged up to 20 Deutschemark per litre at that time.

10        Q.   Did you ever discuss the fuel situation with any ARSK soldiers in

11     Knin or elsewhere?

12        A.   Not to my knowledge.

13        Q.   Mr. Dawes, did you ever have occasion to observe the condition of

14     any ARSK tanks prior to Operation Storm?

15        A.   I would be daily stopped at check-points throughout Sector South

16     to -- by RSK soldiers.  Usually, they would have heavy weapons to block

17     those roads, such as old Soviet-style tanks, mostly T-55s.  They would

18     either have no petrol in them or their mechanisms for turning the turret

19     would be probably comical at best would probably describe the situation.

20     But on one day, they turned the turret of the their tank, it knocked the

21     side of a building, and the actual barrel fell off the tank.

22        Q.   And can you tell the Court, with respect to that last incident of

23     the barrel falling of the tank, do you recall generally where that

24     happened?

25        A.   Yes.  It was -- the road I forget, but it was the road coming up

Page 10388

 1     from Vrlika to Knin.  Approximately halfway along that road was the main

 2     check-point.

 3        Q.   And can you tell the Court approximately how long before

 4     Operation Storm this had happened?

 5        A.   Within a month; shortly before.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move now to your observations about some

 7     specific locations in Knin, and let's begin with the northern barracks.

 8             Referring to your first statement at page 2, this is also page 2

 9     in the B/C/S translation.  On that page, Mr. Dawes, you indicate that you

10     were in the northern barracks on 3 August 1995, and I'd like to you

11     please tell the Court whether you saw many soldiers on that date, in the

12     northern barracks.

13        A.   The answer to your question is I did not see many soldiers nor

14     equipment.

15        Q.   And can you tell the Court what you were doing in the northern

16     barracks.  Why did you have occasion to visit there?

17        A.   As part of my job, members of the with RSK were also land owners,

18     and I'd have to talk to them on a monthly basis.  Also, if I was going

19     into certain areas in Sector South, I would give them a courtesy call to

20     let them know that I was travelling there, more of a safety precaution as

21     well.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And referring to page 4 of that same statement, on

23     the last paragraph of page 4, which, again, appears at the same place in

24     the B/C/S translation, you describe taking a Serb doctor to the hospital

25     during the shelling on 4 August.

Page 10389

 1             You state:  "We then took the main road to the hospital.

 2     Grenades and shrapnels fell all along the road to the hospital, but not

 3     as heavy as in the centre of town.  We had the top trap door of the APC

 4     open, and I was looking around.  When we passed close to the northern

 5     barracks, I saw no impacts there."

 6             Mr. Dawes, can you tell the Court whether, at any later time, on

 7     either the 4th of August or afterwards, you noticed any significant

 8     shelling damage to the northern barracks itself?

 9        A.   I travelled passed the northern barracks many times after the

10     morning of the 4th and saw no damage to those barracks that you could see

11     with the naked eye.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Moving to the top of page 7.

13             MR. RUSSO:  And in the B/C/S translation this appears at page 6.

14        Q.   There you describe another trip into Knin during the shelling on

15     4 August where you got close to the Tvik factory and railway yards from

16     the south.

17             You state:  "This area was totally devastated by the shelling.  I

18     did not see any military personnel or equipment in this area.  The

19     railway had not been used before, and I had been in the Tvik factory many

20     times before the attack without seeing anything of military importance in

21     these facilities."

22             Now, Mr. Dawes, first, can you tell the Court why you had

23     occasion to be inside the Tvik factory many times.

24        A.   The -- what I refer to as the general manager of the screw

25     factory was a landowner, and I would be going to him on a monthly basis

Page 10390

 1     to talk to him about ongoing issues with -- with land that we were

 2     leasing from him.

 3        Q.   And can you tell the Court approximately when the last time you

 4     were in that factory was?

 5        A.   The exact date, no; but it would have been within a month of

 6     August the 4th.

 7        Q.   And if you would, please, describe for the Court exactly what it

 8     is you saw in the Tvik factory.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness come closer to the

10     microphones.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  Of course.

12             I dealt mainly with this gentleman in his administrative part of

13     the complex, but I never saw any activities in the warehouses, any

14     production.  It was all very quiet, like the place was not being used.

15             MR. RUSSO:

16        Q.   And to be clear, did you see any soldiers or military equipment

17     inside that factory?

18        A.   Never.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned in the quote which I read that the

20     railway had not been used before.  Can you please explain to the Court

21     how you know that.

22        A.   I lived in my vehicle basically from Monday to Friday from 8.00

23     to 5.00 travelling, and the main supply routes throughout Sector South

24     always paralleled railway lines.  So I always travelled by the railway

25     lines everyday, and I never saw work being done on the tracks and

Page 10391

 1     functioning.  I never saw what you call a locomotive or a railcar, and

 2     Knin was -- is a railway town.  A lot of the population would talk to me

 3     about how they had lost their income because they couldn't work anymore

 4     because the trains were not running.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move now to page 6 of your first statement, at

 6     the bottom paragraph.

 7             MR. RUSSO:  And in the B/C/S translation, this appears at page 6,

 8     but at the top.

 9        Q.   Now, there, you describe travelling to the ECMM headquarters

10     during the shelling on 4 August 1995, and I would like you, please, to

11     describe for the Court what happened in that area.

12        A.   We were travelling to the ECMM to pick them up because they'd

13     requested to be evacuated.  When we travelled down the main road, the

14     shelling was getting less severe; and when we branched off to go done to

15     the ECMM house off the main road, the shelling almost became what I would

16     call targeted.  We were being bracketed by what I believe was mortar

17     rounds, some falling short, some falling over our APC; and when we

18     dismounted from the personnel carrier, a mortar landed very close to me -

19     I don't know exactly how close, but very close - enough to pick me up and

20     physically move me backwards.

21             The UN security person I was with, I remember him sort of

22     dragging me to my feet, and then we moved into the ECMM house.  I

23     realized had I had been injured in my right ear, and then, ironically

24     enough, the people from the ECMM house then refused to be evacuated.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And can you tell the Court why you believe that these

Page 10392

 1     were mortar rounds.

 2        A.   They definitely were not rockets because once you have been

 3     rocketed, you'll always know the sound or you can actually see the

 4     rockets coming.  It is my belief that they were mortars because of the

 5     distinct sound that they make, and -- that's it.

 6        Q.   You also mentioned that had you been bracketed.  Can you please

 7     explain to the Court what that means.

 8        A.   Well, I was not an expert on artillery in the morning, but I

 9     certainly was quickly becoming one.  They would have rounds fall short of

10     a target and then rounds go over your head, and then they would split the

11     difference and start shelling in the middle.  And on that specific

12     incident, the rounds were falling 40 to 50 metres short of us and then 40

13     to 50 metres in front of us, and then they started dropping them

14     basically on top of us.

15        Q.   And did you notice this kind of bracketing fire occurring any

16     place else in Knin?

17        A.   In the downtown core on our first trip, when we were up in the

18     residential areas behind the parliament buildings, I could say that was

19     where I could see it, and by the residential area by the Tvik factory.

20             MR. KAY:  Can I just get a clarification.  Is he talking about

21     the bracketing in the morning of the 4th of mortar rounds or rounds in

22     general, because it is very, very different.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, could you please seek clarification on

24     this matter.

25             MR. RUSSO:  Absolutely, Your Honour.

Page 10393

 1        Q.   Mr. Dawes, the fire which you are describing in the residential

 2     area behind the parliament building and by the residential area near the

 3     Tvik factory, are you able to say whether this is mortar fire or some

 4     other kind of fire?

 5        A.   I could not say.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  You did mention those two areas:  Parliament

 7     building, residential area by the Tvik factory area.  I don't know if you

 8     had any other areas to add to that.

 9        A.   In general?

10        Q.   Just from what you observed on the 4th or 5th of August.

11        A.   I would say that, in general, the shelling downtown was not

12     targeted.  But when I got further outside of town, towards the ECMM

13     building, there was definitely a sense that we were being targeted

14     because of the shot over and shot under rounds.  While we were in

15     downtown, it was more randomly, more rocket fire.  When we got to the

16     outside of town, it was more artillery/mortar fire.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on page 4 of your first statement, this time

18     referring to the second-to-last paragraph on page 4, which is also the

19     same location in the B/C/S, there you state:

20             "After picking up the PIO and his staff, we went approximately

21     half a kilometre north into a purely residential area, where is also

22     situated a school.  This was between 6.30 and 7.00 a.m.  We then picked

23     up approximately eight Russian and Slovakian maintenance workers.  The

24     shelling was still intense in this area.  Civilian houses were hit.  The

25     school was totally destroyed which I discovered two days after."

Page 10394

 1             Mr. Dawes can you please tell the Court how you learned about the

 2     school being totally destroyed afterwards?

 3        A.   It was told to me by another party, I forget the individual who's

 4     name it was, but I never laid eyes on the school.  I stare directly at it

 5     after Storm was over.

 6        Q.   To be clear, when you say that the school was -- or you were told

 7     the school was totally destroyed, was that from artillery or otherwise?

 8        A.   I couldn't answer that question, accurately.  Artillery or

 9     rockets, I would not know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And do you recall identifying that particular school

11     on a photograph during your proofing session?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could please have 65 ter 5506.

14        Q.   Looking at the screen, Mr. Dawes, is the building circled in red

15     the school which we've been talking about?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. President, I would move for the admission of

19     65 ter 5506.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour, could we have a date when this was

21     taken.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, this was taken in the summer of 2007.

23             MR. KEHOE:  So, I take it from that concession that the right

24     part of this roof that looks like it's a different colour does not

25     exemplify what the roof looked like after Operation Storm on the 5th of

Page 10395

 1     August.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  I'm certainly willing to stipulate to that, Your

 3     Honour.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.  We'll accept the stipulation.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The school was totally destroyed.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  That was what the witness was told by another

 7     witness, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  But didn't he see it after two days?

 9             MR. RUSSO:  I believe the witness's testimony was that he was

10     told that after two days, that he didn't actually observe the

11     destruction.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  No further objections, then, Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number P982.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P982 is admitted into evidence.

15             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Mr. Dawes, I'd now like to turn to the observations you made

17     about burning and looting which occurred after Operation Storm.  And

18     referring to page 8 of your first statement, this would be in the third

19     paragraph of page 8.

20             MR. RUSSO:  And in the B/C/S translation, this appears on page 7,

21     also on the third paragraph.

22        Q.   And, there, Mr. Dawes, you discuss the looting of Serbian

23     property by HV soldiers which you observed and 5 August 1995, and I would

24     like to you please describe what you saw on that day.

25        A.   We had a bird's eye view of the front gate, the Croatian armed

Page 10396

 1     forces had been in town for a while; and once you were observing the

 2     front gate, you could see vehicles coming by that would have personal

 3     items strapped to the top of those vehicles, inside the vehicles.  I

 4     would call them high value items:  TV sets, dining-room table, fridges,

 5     freezers, items like that.  Vehicles that they were driving in would have

 6     KN registered licence plates, so Knin registered licence plates.  The

 7     people occupying the vehicles were Croatian.  You could tell by the type

 8     of uniform they were wearing and their shoulder flashes with the

 9     chequerboard.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And can you tell the Court whether or not these

11     soldiers that you saw carrying these items were drunk or sober?

12        A.   The mood was quite festive on the Croatian side.  They were

13     celebrating the win of Knin.  There was a good number of Croatian

14     soldiers that were openly intoxicated.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo, just for my understanding about the

16     school, there might have been some confusion.

17             You were told two days later that the school had been destroyed.

18     You never observed it yourself after this was told to you?  You've never

19     seen it.

20             THE WITNESS:  Never, sir.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Dawes, with regard to the looting which you observed outside

25     the compound on the 5th, can you tell the Court whether you observed any

Page 10397

 1     HV commanders or officers rank present during this looting?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And if an HV commander had been present, would what you observed?

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour, this is pure speculation, if

 5     an HV commander had been present.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's wait for the question.  It started with an

 7     assumption, which doesn't necessarily mean that the whole of the question

 8     would be speculative as well.

 9             Mr. Russo, could you phrase your question and, Mr. Dawes, could

10     you wait to answer that question until I've given permission.

11             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Dawes, if an HV commander had been present, would what you

13     observed on the 5th of August outside the compound have been noticeable

14     to, in fact, anyone in that area?

15             MR. KEHOE:  Again, Judge, it is of no consequence given what the

16     Chamber is looking for.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  You're asking whether he could see it?  Yes.  I take

18     it that if you're in the right place to see it, then you can see it.  If

19     you are behind a wall or behind a building, then you couldn't see it.

20             MR. RUSSO:  Perhaps I should ... [Overlapping speakers] ... Your

21     Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, if commanders were there, it's of vital

23     importance for the answer to the question where they were.  And if they

24     were in the right place, if you can see something, everyone who is not

25     blind can see it as well, if he is just in the right position.

Page 10398

 1             You would agree with that, Mr. Russo?

 2             MR. RUSSO:  I would agree with that specific point, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please explore further what the witness is tell us.

 4             MR. RUSSO:

 5        Q.   Mr. Dawes, what you observed outside the compound on the 5th of

 6     August, was it isolated to a very small place or was it occurring over a

 7     relatively large area?

 8        A.   At that time --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Your Honour, if I may,

10     from based on what he could see inside the base, the UN base, I assume

11     that, just by way of clarification, that's what he is asking:  What the

12     witness could see when he was in the base on the 5th, which he never

13     left.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether that's what you're asking

15     exactly.

16             MR. RUSSO:  I'm asking the witness to answer the question based

17     on what he observed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Well, Your Honour --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- let me just look at the question again:

21             "What you observed outside the compound on the 5th of August, was

22     it isolated."

23             Perhaps the witness could, in his answer, also include from what

24     position he was able to see what, and then, in this context, answer the

25     question whether it was isolated to a very small place or occurring over

Page 10399

 1     a relatively large area.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, just by one point of clarification, the

 3     evidence that the --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's first hear the answer of the witness, and then

 5     if there's any need to put further questions.

 6             Please, Mr. Dawes.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, a map of the camp would be great for you right

 8     now, sir, so you could actually se it.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  We have a map in front much us.  You have a map

10     marked, and this one is attached to your second statement.  So we have

11     that map available, and we have some familiarity with the city of Knin.

12             THE WITNESS:  Fair enough, sir.  So the front gate where I was

13     located and the main administrative buildings that would overlook the

14     road that would -- was in right in front of the camp, Your Honour, I

15     noticed that that road was full, and the parking lot that was across the

16     main gate was full of personal belongs from houses, like TV sets,

17     dining-room tables, et cetera, and that the Croatian soldiers were

18     handling those pieces of equipment.  That's directly what I saw from that

19     advantage point.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  In front of the main gate.

21             THE WITNESS:  Correct.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

23             MR. RUSSO:  I think that's fine, Your Honour.

24        Q.   The -- further down on that same page, page 8 of your first

25     statement, Mr. Dawes, you discuss a trip that you took outside the UN

Page 10400

 1     camp on 6 August, and you indicate that you went through the village of

 2     Vrbnik.  I'd like to you please describe for the Court what you witnessed

 3     happening in Vrbnik.

 4        A.   When you leave the main -- sorry.  When you leave the main camp,

 5     you take a direct left, you go to the top of the hill.  As soon as you

 6     get to the top of the hill, there's an intersection.  At that

 7     intersection, there was some dead civilian bodies.  And on that road,

 8     once you hang a right, there were Croatian soldiers that were openly

 9     looting houses along that road.

10        Q.   And I don't know if your answer was specific to Vrbnik or not,

11     but I wanted to know what you saw in the town of Vrbnik, not along the

12     way.  Of course, your answer is fine with respect to that.  I'm not sure

13     if you were answering in Vrbnik or on the way to Vrbnik.

14        A.   In Vrbnik.

15        Q.   And can you tell the Court whether or not you saw any houses

16     either burning or being destroyed in the town of Vrbnik.

17        A.   The houses had already been destroyed and the contents of the

18     houses had been remove to the sides of the roads or into the back of

19     different vehicles.

20        Q.   And, again, Mr. Dawes, were you able to tell whether there were

21     any -- well, first, let me ask you:  Who was doing the looting?

22        A.   The specific unit of the HV, I'm not sure; but they were Croatian

23     soldiers.  I can quantify that by -- Croatian soldiers are very different

24     from RSK soldiers.  They were always properly attired, very much in full

25     regalia with beret, flak vest, uniforms, carry their weapons properly,

Page 10401

 1     very organised.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And were you able to determine whether there were any

 3     HV commanders present in the town of Vrbnik on 6 August.

 4        A.   I do not remember seeing anybody in charge.

 5        Q.   Moving to the next page of your statement.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  This would be in the B/C/S translation at the bottom

 7     of page 7.

 8        Q.   You indicate that you moved on to visit the town of Kistanje,

 9     and, again, I would like you to describe for the Court what you observed

10     happening in Kistanje.

11        A.   May I take a second to read?

12        Q.   Absolutely.

13        A.   So, after leaving Vrbnik, we followed on that road, got to

14     Kistanje, I would say, half an hour later.  There was many more soldiers

15     in Kistanje than there was in Vrbnik, I would say a company size in

16     total.  Again, they were wearing their normal HV uniforms, and they were

17     actively looting and sacking the town of Kistanje.

18        Q.   Can you explain to the Court what the term "sacking" means to

19     you?

20        A.   They were taking the personal belongs of people -- sorry, they

21     taking the personal belongs out of the houses and putting them into

22     either the back of army vehicles or personal vehicles or storing them on

23     the sides of road for later pick-up.

24        Q.   And can you tell the Court whether you noticed any destruction of

25     buildings or burning happening in that town.

Page 10402

 1        A.   Yes.  The town was being destroyed.  Some houses would not be

 2     destroyed, and the -- they would either put a symbol on those houses

 3     identifying it as a Croatian house.  The remainder of the houses would be

 4     destroyed, and I would - nobody likes hearing the word "assume" - but I'd

 5     assume those would be Serbian houses.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dawes, again, did you take note or happen to notice if there

 7     were in the HV commanders present in Kistanje.

 8        A.   Such a large group of soldiers, again you would assume there

 9     would be a commander; but I don't remember seeing one or talking to one

10     on that day.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, following on to the middle of page 9 in your

12     first statement.

13             MR. RUSSO:  This appears in the B/C/S translation at the top of

14     page 8.

15        Q.   You indicate that on the way back to Knin on this trip, you came

16     to an intersection on the route to Srb, and I would like you to explain

17     to the Court what it was that you saw at that intersection?

18        A.   There were a group of people who had been killed.  They were

19     laying on the left side of the road, if you were driving to Knin, right

20     by the Srb exist; S-r-b exit, I mean.  There was battle damage to their

21     vehicles, and they were dead and they had been dead for a while.

22        Q.   And when you say "battle damage," can you explain what that

23     means?

24        A.   The civilian vehicles were showing signs of splay damage,

25     shrapnel damage, and small-arms fire to the vehicle.  I didn't identify

Page 10403

 1     how the victims died.  We didn't get out of the vehicle.

 2        Q.   And can you tell the Court whether you could see or whether you

 3     were able to make a determination as to whether these were civilian

 4     people or military?

 5             MR. KEHOE:  More specifically and clarification of how they were

 6     dressed, not whether they were civilian or military, but how they were

 7     dressed.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I think --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You could explore that in cross-examination.

10             How did they appear to you and perhaps you explain why they

11     appear to you as either military or civilian.

12             THE WITNESS:  We will they were not all males.  There was a

13     combination of females to male.  The females were definitely not in

14     uniform.  The males, it is a difficult question.  May I have time to

15     explain it?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Please explain as you wish.

17             THE WITNESS:  In the Republic of Serbian Krajina, any

18     fighting-age male was deemed part of the armed forces, Your Honour, and

19     normal Serbian attire would dictate that they would have a piece of

20     camouflage clothing on them.  So it was not uncommon to see civilians

21     dressed with camouflage trousers.

22             The people that -- the males that I saw dead that specific

23     incident, some of them did have camouflage trousers on, but they had

24     civilian tops.  They did not have any rank or insignia on them, and there

25     was no weapons around them.

Page 10404

 1             MR. RUSSO:

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And, Mr. Dawes, can you say approximately how many

 3     people you saw dead at that intersection.

 4        A.   To the exact number, no.  There were a bunch of dead people, more

 5     than 15, less than 25.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And you indicate in your statement that later on, on

 7     the way back from that trip, you were able to make it through the town of

 8     Knin itself, and I would like you to describe for the Court what you

 9     witnessed in Knin on that day.

10        A.   When we left that area, approximately three kilometres from the

11     outskirts of Knin, on the outskirts of Knin, we were stopped by a

12     Croatian military police check-point.  They asked us for identification,

13     they did a radio -- they talked on the radios for a couple of minutes,

14     and then they allowed us through the town.

15             We stopped immediately at the other person in the vehicle, who

16     was driving with me, at his place to pick up personal belongings.  His

17     house had been looted.  Then we continued down the main street of Knin,

18     directly all the way downtown, back to the barracks.

19             Driving through the town of Knin on that morning or afternoon was

20     the first time I saw Knin after the dust had settled, so to speak.  The

21     house -- the house.  The town was full of Croatian military, Croatian

22     police, and the -- the town was being cleaned, garbage was being piled,

23     personal belongings were being piled.  It was a surreal experience.

24             There was mountains of belongings on the sides of the roads as

25     government or people from the armed forces were emptying the apartment

Page 10405

 1     blocks and the houses of all their personal belongings.  There was a

 2     horrible smell in the town, and we saw a lot of hazmat people cleaning

 3     obviously the contents of fridges since the power had been off.  We saw

 4     dead bodies being removed from houses.  We saw -- I saw organised

 5     dismantling of a town from a personal belongings point of view, and that

 6     was it.

 7        Q.   I'd like to separate out a limited of what you've said.

 8             First of all, with respect to the removal of personal belongings

 9     from apartments, can you tell the Court how these belongings were being

10     handled.  Were they being separated in any way, all thrown out, anything

11     you were able to observe?

12        A.   Items of no interest at all would be thrown out balconies to pile

13     on the street below.  Items of value would be carried down, and they

14     would be separated into different piles.  So there would be a pile of TV

15     sets, there would be a pile of stereos, there would be a pile of fridges

16     et cetera, et cetera.  Then the garbage would be -- or the items of

17     non-value would be put into backs of trucks and taken away, and items of

18     value were put in the back of lorries.  That's what was happening.

19        Q.   And your use of the term "organised," the organised dismantling

20     of a town, can you explain to the Court what you mean by "organised"?

21        A.   If I may use Vrbnik and Kistanje as an example of non-organised,

22     i.e., a bunch of soldiers that were not placing items in different piles

23     that were just -- I guess, I like to use the word "rabble" or a

24     unorganised bunch of people.

25             Knin was very systematic.  It was very organised in the sense

Page 10406

 1     that items from the town were being stockpiled into different piles, and

 2     there was definitely a sense of -- of order.  Some groups of people were

 3     doing certain tasks, other people doing different tasks.  It was very

 4     much like a military operation.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on that same page of your first statement,

 6     Mr. Dawes - and this appears at the bottom of page 8 on the B/C/S - you

 7     mention a trip that you took on 8 August along the Knin-Drnis road, and I

 8     would like you to please explain for the Court what you observed

 9     happening along that road.

10        A.   Because of the amount of refugees we had in our camp, we needed

11     potable drinking water.  The only source of potable drinking water was in

12     the coast, Croatia.  We had to travel to Primosten to pick up water in

13     bowzer.  I was tasked with doing that job.  So we had to travel on that

14     road to Drnis, which is again a half-hour drive from Knin; and along that

15     way, there would be different check-points on the road by Croatian

16     forces, never policija, always armed forces, always military.

17             And along that road, there are a lot of small villages either

18     directly on the road or indented by up to half a kilometre but visible

19     from the road.  And when we drove in on the morning to get the water,

20     very professional Croatian military unit - I've never seen them before or

21     after - spoke good English, the people at the check-points.  They wanted

22     to see our identifications and what we were doing.  They were satisfied

23     with what we were up to.

24             Then, if you looked past the check-point, i.e., to the sides of

25     the road, you could see that in the morning time, they were again

Page 10407

 1     systematically removing the contents from people's houses and storing

 2     them either besides the houses or in the back of -- of Croatian military

 3     trucks.

 4             You can tell a designation of the -- you can tell they were of

 5     military vehicles because the licence plates started with HV, Hrvatska

 6     Vojska.  We travelled -- sorry.  There was also good command and control.

 7     The persons at the check-point didn't know what to do with us, so he

 8     called for his higher, and a - I don't know the Croatian rank on the

 9     structure - but a person of rank and authority came to the vehicle; you

10     can tell by their demeanour.  He spoke to me and asked me what I was up

11     to, and he then gave me permission to travel along the road.

12             We went and got the water along the coast and came back later in

13     the afternoon, and those same villages that they were looting, they were

14     now burning and the skyline was black.  You needed to have your

15     headlights on.  The dirt and dust and the crap from the houses burning

16     was blowing across the road, and that was, without exaggeration, from

17     Drnis to Knin.  Most villages along that road were completely destroyed

18     on that afternoon.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Dawes, do you recall drawing on a map the routes

20     that you travelled on both 5th August and 6th August?

21        A.   I do.

22             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we please have 65 ter 5505.

23        Q.   While this is coming up, Mr. Dawes, I'm going to ask to you

24     briefly explain to the Court the routes, which ones represent which day.

25             MR. RUSSO:  Mr. Registrar, if we could move to sort of the middle

Page 10408

 1     bottom there.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Mr. Dawes, if you would, please, explain to the Court what these

 3     routes represent.

 4        A.   The circular route was the route that I went through Vrbnik,

 5     Kistanje, and then back to Knin; and the up and down route, north to

 6     south route, was the route that I used to get to Drnis that day to get

 7     the water.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Could I please have that admitted into evidence.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objection.

11             Mr. Registrar.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit number P983, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  P983 is admitted into evidence.

14             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, and for the benefit of the Bench and for

15     Defence counsel, I have provided demonstrative, digitally-enhanced

16     photographs that actually indicate in larger print the names of the towns

17     passed through on this drawing.

18        Q.   Mr. Dawes, do you also recall marking, on an aerial photograph of

19     Knin, the locations of some of the buildings and areas referenced in your

20     two statements?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22             MR. RUSSO:  And, Mr.  Registrar, if we could please have 65

23     ter 5504.

24        Q.   Mr. Dawes, do you recognise this as the aerial for upon which you

25     made those markings?

Page 10409

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  Again, Your Honour, I would like to have 65 ter 5504

 3     admitted into evidence.  The letters indicated on here are all explained

 4     in the second statement of Mr. Dawes.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  No objection.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

 7             Mr. Russo, we got a map on our desk.  That appears not to be the

 8     same, although the markings are quite similar, isn't it?

 9             MR. RUSSO:  Yes, Your Honour.  This was also provided, just as an

10     aid to the Court, a digitally-enhanced version of what you now see on the

11     screen.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What I liked very much, as a matter of fact,

13     was that the contrasting colours on the map on our desk, for the first

14     time, I really could see what is marked and what is the map.

15             Now, is there any reason has the witness marked it twice?

16             MR. RUSSO:  It is not a marking twice by the witness, Your

17     Honour.  We simply took the aerial photograph which had been marked by

18     the witness and digitally enhanced the drawings on our own as an aid to

19     the Court.  We can certainly, if the Defence counsel has no objection, we

20     can certainly have the digitally-enhanced portions uploaded to replace

21     P983 and 65 ter 5504.

22             MR. KEHOE:  I have no objection.  It seems looking to me, just

23     looking at the digitally-enhanced photograph, that it reflects what is on

24     the screen.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it appears to me, but, of course, it always

Page 10410

 1     takes me sometime to always carefully compare, whether what we've got in

 2     front of us is the same as we see on the screen, rather than to have two

 3     different versions.  It very much looks to be the same.

 4             Now this, what we have on the screen now, is the map marked by

 5     the witness?

 6             MR. RUSSO:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  And are we supposed to work from that one or from

 8     this better legible one?

 9             MR. RUSSO:  I thought I would leave it to the Court's preference.

10     I simply provided the digitally-enhanced one in case, when these are

11     uploaded, they're quite difficult to look at on e-court, so I thought a

12     hard copy might be better.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, the one is in evidence, and the

14     other is not.  That is, well, I couldn't say is bothering me that much,

15     but it is the same, could we have the best one in evidence, so if later

16     we use it.

17             If the parties agree they are the same, then, Mr. Russo, you are

18     invited to upload into e-court the one which gives the best possibilities

19     of seeing what accurately was marked, and you may have noticed that I

20     made comments on this at some previous occasions.

21             MR. RUSSO:  I will do so, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  We already have a map marked by the witness, and

23     perhaps, after the break, you'll inform us whether it will be the one

24     which is uploaded now or whether it will be replaced by the

25     digitally-enhanced copy.

Page 10411

 1             Mr. Registrar, the map marked by the witness.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this will become

 3     Exhibit number P984.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  P984 is admitted into evidence.  And if you want to

 5     replace it by the digitally-enhanced copy, then we'd like to hear from

 6     you, Mr. Russo.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dawes, after the Croatians took over Knin, did you continue

10     in your responsibilities as an accommodations officer?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   Could you tell the Court what was left for you to do with respect

13     to apartments and property used by UN employees?

14        A.   Both UN civilian properties and military properties were still

15     being used, so since there were no new landlords in town, I had to set up

16     the exact same boiler plate contracts between the new Croatian landlords

17     and the UN.

18        Q.   And did you follow the same process of verifying ownership for

19     the new Croatian landlords?

20        A.   We did.  It was the exact same procedure.

21        Q.   And can you the tell the Court whether it was done out of the

22     same office as had been done for the RSK authorities?

23        A.   Yes, it was.

24        Q.   And can you explain to the Court what this verification of the

25     Croatian landowner property, do you know whether or not it came from the

Page 10412

 1     same paperwork?  Were you able to determine whether it was the same

 2     paperwork that the Croats had which the RSK had had?

 3        A.   No, it was different -- different deeds.  The reason why you'd

 4     know this is that on some part of the land deed, there would actually be

 5     a stamp of -- so, for example, the Croatian stamp would have the

 6     chequer-board down in the corner, and it would be in Croatian.

 7             The with RSK deed would have the -- I believe it is the eagle of

 8     the RSK, and it would be in Cyrillic.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. RUSSO:  I have no further question, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Russo.

12             Mr. Kehoe, we could take an earlier break and then ask you to

13     start.  It depends if you have a subject which could be covered in some

14     ten minutes then.

15             MR. KEHOE:  I really do, Judge.  I have a quick subject that I

16     can get through.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then, Mr. Dawes you will now cross-examined

18     first by Mr. Kehoe.  Mr. Kehoe is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:

20             MR. KEHOE:

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Dawes.  Just looking at P983, again, briefly.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dawes, uploading of maps usually takes some

23     time.

24             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25        Q.   Mr. Dawes, this is the map that we just talked about previously.

Page 10413

 1     Who was with you when you made this trip, sir?

 2        A.   I was with another UN employee.

 3        Q.   Who was that?

 4        A.   A security officer for the UN, Andries Dreyer, I believe was his

 5     last name.

 6        Q.   So you took this trip with Andries Dreyer?

 7        A.   Absolutely --

 8             MR. RUSSO:  Excuse me.  I apologise for interrupting, but I'm

 9     asking for clarification on which --

10             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me.  This is cross-examination --

11             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, there are two trips represented on the

12     map, and that has been covered in direct examination.  The circle

13     represents the 6th, the straight line represents the 8th.  I'm simply

14     asking Mr. Kehoe to clarify which trip he is referring to.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  With all due respect, Your Honour, if the

16     witness has a question about clarification, the witness should ask.

17     Counsel should not be rising to instruct the witness on how to answer the

18     question.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe intervened several times, asking that

20     Mr. Russo be more precise and make distinctions, which logically follow

21     from the previous testimony of the witness.

22             You asked about "this trip," Mr. Kehoe, where the witness clearly

23     explained the map giving the itinerary of two trips.  Mr. Russo is fully

24     entitled to ask you to specify.

25             MR. KEHOE:  I will clarify.

Page 10414

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Therefore, emotions seem to be rather Friday-like,

 2     than Monday morning-like.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   You took a trip on the 6th.  Is that right?

 6        A.   [Microphone not activated]

 7        Q.   And where did you go on the 6th?

 8        A.   That was the one to Vrbnik, Kistanje, back to Knin.

 9        Q.   So that is the circle?

10        A.   The circle route.

11        Q.   Who was with you then?

12        A.   Andries Dreyer.

13        Q.   And what type of vehicle were you driving?

14        A.   An UN mini-van.

15        Q.   Now, what was the date of the next trip?

16        A.   I believe it is the 8th.

17        Q.   And that is the trip that you have going south to Drnis?

18        A.   Correct.

19        Q.   Who was with you then?

20        A.   I was driving in an UN vehicle, an SUV, by myself; and then we

21     would have the lorry drivers or the truck drivers were in my convoy.  I

22     don't know how many or who they were.

23        Q.   So how many vehicles where were with you going down towards

24     Drnis?

25        A.   Two or three, don't know exactly the amount.

Page 10415

 1        Q.   But you were by yourself in your vehicle?

 2        A.   That I can remember.  There may have been somebody else with me.

 3     I -- I can't remember on that trip.

 4        Q.   Well, wasn't it against UN policy for you to be driving alone?

 5        A.   That's misleading.  It is against in some areas, but as long as

 6     you have people in a convoy with you, you're not technically along.  So

 7     depending on the threat level, it would indicate whether or not you can

 8     travel alone or not.  I'm not sure of the threat level on the 8th, but I

 9     may have had been with -- by myself or had somebody with me.  But there

10     was definitely other UN people in the convoy.

11        Q.   Well, who else was in this convoy?

12        A.   We have specific people who would be allowed to drive lorries,

13     and they would be those people, UN civilians, international workers.

14        Q.   Well, do you have any names?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Approximately how many UN people were in this convoy?

17        A.   Again, I'm not trying to defer the answer.  I just can't remember

18     how many people were with me.  Two or three, four or five.

19        Q.   Were there any members of the United Nations military police, a

20     military police contingent from the United Nations as part of this

21     convoy?

22        A.   I don't believe so, no.

23        Q.   So there was no military whatsoever here.

24        A.   I can't remember.

25        Q.   Well, do you remember Captain Geoff Hill?

Page 10416

 1        A.   I believe he was the OC of the Canadian -- sorry, UN military

 2     police detachment in Knin.

 3        Q.   Now, was Mr. Hill, Captain Hill, with you on this trip on the

 4     8th?

 5        A.   No, he was not.

 6        Q.   Do you know Captain Phil Berikoff?

 7        A.   The name is not familiar.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Let us turn our attention to P962.  Let me cover a

 9     few quick matters before the break -- P62, excuse me, P62.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the speakers to

11     make a pause between question and answer.  Thank you.

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, my apologies.

13             THE WITNESS:  Sorry.

14             MR. KEHOE:

15        Q.   As this map is coming up, as you can see, Mr. Dawes, this is a

16     map of Knin; and with the assistance of the usher, and just referring

17     back to your statements where you said you took three trips out on the

18     4th of August, I would like you to, with the assistance of the usher,

19     draw the route that you took on your first trip on the 4th of August?

20        A.   Sorry.  I've never used one of these before.  You just literally

21     do what you're supposed to do, I imagine, right?  Okay, I got it.

22             I'm sorry if I've not getting literally the street or if I'm

23     bisecting a house right now.  It's a little bit difficult.

24             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Your Honour, should this have been in blue?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Dawes, you may not be aware of our colour

Page 10417

 1     codes.

 2             I think Defence was blue, isn't it?

 3             MR. KEHOE:  I think so, Judge.  I think so.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             THE WITNESS:  I have no problems with blue, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  I think it's an issue of whether or not we have a

 8     problem.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  It gives us --

10             MR. KEHOE:  I think if we just remove this and start again.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was wondering whether we could not also zoom

12     in.  I do not know, of course, exactly what we're covering, what

13     itineraries.  We have now only small portion of the map.  It's more

14     difficult to find your routes if it is not enlarged.

15             Mr. Kehoe, I take it you have a better idea on where the witness

16     is you expect him to --

17             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, I do.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So let's perhaps forget about this one.  If I

19     wouldn't mind, Mr. Dawes, that you will be invited to do the same again

20     for the second time, where perhaps we can zoom in on that portion of the

21     map which finally will make it into evidence.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Actually, I think there is quite a bit drawing.

23     That's why I went large first, Judge, then we can zoom in from where he

24     puts the line.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The problem is that we can't, once marking starts,

Page 10418

 1     we can't change the zoom level anymore.  So we have to do it right from

 2     the beginning to find the right part of the picture, then invite the

 3     witness to mark.

 4             If you could perhaps guide in finding the right portion of the

 5     map.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Should I just --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say, I'd like to have the lower right part

 8     enlarged, then that is what, then, will be done, and we'll --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  It is actually his route on the first trip, I

10     believe, is going to cover from the left-hand side all the way -- by the

11     hospital back to --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So we need the whole of the map, you would say.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll ask the witness to do as good as he can,

15     but now with the blue marker.

16             Madam Usher, could you assist?

17             The witness has the marker.

18             THE WITNESS:  It's been changed to blue?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  The map is empty now, there is no markings on it any

20     more, and you're invited to make the markings Mr. Kehoe asks you in blue.

21             THE WITNESS:  May I ask a question?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

23             THE WITNESS:  My first trip out was quite complex.  Am I allowed

24     to read my statement first and then draw?

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 10419

 1        Q.   Absolutely, sir.  Just use anything you'd need to assist you

 2     along.

 3        A.   Forgive me if I missed a street by a block or two.  It's the

 4     general area that I went that day.

 5        Q.   And you've returned back to the UN base?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   And who was with you on that first --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, this will be totally incomprehensible for

 9     those who look at this map later.  So what the witness marked, how he

10     left UN compound on the southern part of the map, then made his way into

11     town, passing the helicopter pad, I think; then instead of following the

12     main road along the railway complex, he turned a little bit to the west,

13     then to the north again, then to the east, where he apparently came to

14     the place where you can cross the railways; then he made, in

15     north-easterly direction, his way in the direction of the hospital, the

16     last portion being south-easterly and then north-easterly again.

17             Then he returned from the hospital, same route, exactly up to

18     where the railway bridge is; there he then moved in south-easterly

19     direction, along the Tvik complex; then last portion moving in northerly

20     direction.  There where the marking stops, he apparently turned, made his

21     way again in southerly direction for a small distance; then going into a

22     north-westerly direction again to the place where the railways can be

23     crossed; and then made, after having crossed the railway, made back his

24     way to the UN compound in the same way apparently as he had come, that

25     is, not following the main road along the railway complex, but moving a

Page 10420

 1     little bit into a westerly direction, then back south, a little east

 2     again, and then further following the main road to the UN compound.

 3             That is what I understood the marking to be, because, otherwise,

 4     if you later look at this picture, you would not know where he went

 5     because did he not explain it in words.

 6             You would agree that this is approximately what you marked?

 7             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 9             MR. KEHOE:

10        Q.   And going back to the question, who was with you on this first

11     trip?

12        A.   I can't accurately identify the people that were in the vehicle

13     with me.  I know I was in a Jordanian APC, that the crew commander was

14     Jordanian and the driver was Jordanian in my APC.  I'm not sure if

15     Andries Dreyer was in another APC behind me or if he was in the same APC

16     as me.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer this into

18     evidence, as marked.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

20             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D855.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  D855 is admitted into evidence.

24             I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Kehoe.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, we can take the break now.  I mean, I

Page 10421

 1     was going to have two quick things to do, but I don't know.  It's going

 2     to be a similar exercise.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break and resume at five minutes past

 4     11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, please proceed.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Dreyer [sic], if you could turn to your 1996 statement at

10     P980, page 3, last paragraph.  Do you see that, sir?

11        A.   Page 3 in my original statement?

12        Q.   Correct.

13        A.   Good to go.

14        Q.   Last paragraph, second sentence:  "Andries Dreyer was in one APC,

15     I was in the second one, This was my first trip downtown this morning,"

16     and it says, "Dreyer and the clerk had been down before."

17             MR. KEHOE:  We can turn the page.

18        Q.   Top of the page, page 4, there's a call to the Chief of Staff to

19     go and pick up a Jordanian colonel.  The first -- second full sentence:

20     "I then joined the first APC where Andries Dreyer was, and the second APC

21     went to pick up the colonel, and we continued on the main road into

22     Knin."

23             Does that refresh your recollection that you were with Andries

24     Dreyer for your first trip?

25        A.   A little bit, yes.  Thank you.

Page 10422

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Let us go and put up another copy of P62 on the

 2     screen, please.

 3        Q.   Again, Mr. Dawes, with the assistance of the usher, if you could

 4     draw the route you took on your second trip on the 4th of August.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  And I do believe we have to put that back to its

 6     original size.

 7        Q.   With the assistance of the usher, using the blue pencil, if you

 8     could draw that second trip.

 9        A.   It's blue.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  It's good.

11             THE WITNESS:  I return the same way.  Do you want me to leave it

12     that way so I don't make it with another parallel line?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The marking started at the UN compound, went

14     then into an easterly direction, bending to southerly direction where it

15     meets the limits of the map, and you came back on the same road.

16             THE WITNESS:  Came back on the same road --

17             MR. KEHOE:  If there could just one clarifying on that score,

18     Judge.

19        Q.   That is the direction when you went towards the village of

20     Potkonje.  Is that right?

21        A.   Yeah, that's correct.  I went back to the main camp, and then we

22     started off on the -- I guess it would be part B of the second trip, if

23     you want to refer to it as that.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, second part of the marking is leaving again

25     from the UN compound, taking the main road into town; now following the

Page 10423

 1     road along the railway complex, crossing the railway, going into

 2     south-easterly direction, and turning to the left, making a kind of a

 3     circle.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Then following back the same direction, back to the

 5     camp, sir.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Joining the road where the witness went, then

 7     going back to where he crossed the railway, and then going the same way

 8     back, the main road, to the UN compound.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MR. KEHOE:

11        Q.   Now, Andries Dreyer was with you on this trip as well, wasn't he?

12        A.   I can't remember.

13        Q.   Well, let me turn your attention to page 5 of P980.

14             MR. KEHOE:  Before I do, Your Honour, I would like to tender the

15     photograph on the screen with Mr. Dawes's markings.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

17             MR. RUSSO:  My apologies, Your Honour.  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D856.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D856 is admitted into evidence.

21             I heard you say D -- yes, D856.  Initially, it appeared as

22     "D956," but D856 is admitted into evidence.

23             MR. KEHOE:  May I proceed, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

25        Q.   In the second-to-last paragraph of page 5, talking about your

Page 10424

 1     second trip:  "However, instead of going downtown immediately, we decided

 2     to go to Potkonje to the UNMO station.  On this trip, Engleby," should be

 3     Sergeant Engleby, "was also with us."

 4             Now, who is the "us"?

 5        A.   That would be the crew of the APC.  I wasn't driving the APC.

 6        Q.   Now, going back, is part of the "us," Mr. Dreyer?

 7        A.   I can't remember.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  Let us, once again, put up a copy of P62.

 9        Q.   Again, Mr. Dawes, the same exercise, if could you just draw,

10     using blue, your third trip, the route that you took.

11        A.   Sorry.  My blue pen has entered the barracks.  I didn't mean for

12     that to happen.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher, could you assist the witness in erasing

14     a portion of --

15             Meanwhile, I describe the marking made until now; that is,

16     leaving the UN compound, taking the main road to the city, crossing the

17     Krka river, taking the main road along halo, following the railway

18     complex, crossing the railway; and then to continue a road following the

19     railway, not going into the town, the road which leads to -- or follows

20     going to the western -- passing on the western side the barracks.

21             Then you return the same way?

22             THE WITNESS:  Correct.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When I said "passing the barracks," which are

24     the northern barracks, I have to correct that.  It stops approximately

25     when the road has reached the barracks, and then returning along the

Page 10425

 1     railway road, crossing the railway road, and then taking the same way

 2     back to the UN compound.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             THE WITNESS:  So I can continue drawing my trip on the third --

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes, then there was a mistake.  I thought you

 7     had returned.

 8             So we are now at the western side of what is called the northern

 9     barracks, from what I understand, yes.

10             THE WITNESS:  I retraced my steps back to the roundabout --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The roundabout where you can cross the

12     railway?

13             THE WITNESS:  Correct, sir.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS:  And then I travelled by the road --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Now something appears on the screen which looks

17     like --

18             THE WITNESS:  Looks like I need some more administrative help,

19     sir.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Usher or Mr. Registrar, do you know how to get

21     rid of ...

22             We apparently do not know how to get rid of this ourselves.

23             THE WITNESS:  Can I say it in words?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.  If you do it slowly, then we

25     can --

Page 10426

 1             Is there no way to continue the marking?

 2             Let's see whether our technicians are able to help us out.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we get rid of this and try to do the

 5     exercise again, which might be more clear.

 6             Mr. Registrar, could we have a clean P62 on the screen.

 7             Mr. Dawes, you're invited to start again at the UN compound and

 8     do the marking as you did it before and then to continue.

 9             Yes.  Madam Usher, could you assist Mr. Dawes getting rid of

10     the --

11             THE WITNESS:  It's not on purpose.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I know.  One second.  Madam Usher will help you.

13                 We're now on the map where it reads "Knin army BKS."

14             THE WITNESS:  So I travelled back to the main roundabout --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             THE WITNESS:  -- and then I returned by the same --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me first describe.

18             From the roundabout, you took the road in north-westerly

19     direction, passing the -- I should say north-easterly direction, passing

20     the northern barracks on the eastern side, and then continuing; and,

21     there, where the marking stops, you returned and took the same road?

22             THE WITNESS:  Correct, to the roundabout again.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So that is now in a south-westerly direction, up to

24     the point of the roundabout where you can pass the railway.

25             THE WITNESS:  Then I'll take over from there.

Page 10427

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  There, you took the road in south-easterly

 2     direction, which bends then to north-easterly direction, and then a right

 3     turn.  You then ended up in an area with some larger structures; and from

 4     there, you returned --

 5             THE WITNESS:  I returned to the camp, so same route back to the

 6     roundabout --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- same route; that is, same route back to the

 8     roundabout, crossing the railway, following the railway complex, and then

 9     taking the route back to the UN compound.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we can offer this map with

12     the markings on it into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

14             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes D857.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  D857 is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. KEHOE:

19        Q.   Mr. Dawes, this was the trip where you said that you were at the

20     ECMM house where the mortar shelling was taking place?

21        A.   Correct.

22        Q.   Where is the ECMM house?

23        A.   It's in that general area where I sort of stopped marking.  It's

24     in that general area.

25        Q.   You mean in the area by the -- by the northern barracks?

Page 10428

 1        A.   Past the northern barracks, well down that road.

 2        Q.   Can you circle the approximate area?

 3        A.   No, I couldn't.

 4        Q.   Well, was Mr. Dreyer with you at that time?

 5        A.   I believe he was, but I can't guarantee that.  I believe he was.

 6        Q.   Well, who was the UN person that you said that took you into the

 7     UN [sic] house?

 8        A.   Which UN house?

 9        Q.   Excuse me, the ECMM house.  You noted directly this morning that

10     when the mortar attack took place, one UN person took you into the ECMM

11     house.  Who was that UN person?

12        A.   I believe it was Andries.

13        Q.   And using this photograph and the markings, you cannot circle in

14     the general direction where the ECMM house is?

15        A.   Down that road, on the left-hand side someplace.  That's about as

16     best as I can do for you, sir.

17        Q.   When you say "down that road, on the left-hand side," are you

18     referring to the road that goes to the west side of the northern

19     barracks?

20        A.   Sorry.  I'm never very good with a map.  I'm talking about the --

21        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] ... north similar to the left?

22        A.   It's the route that goes past the hospital, the blue route that I

23     traced past the hospital.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  It's where I said that he passed the eastern part of

25     the northern barracks.

Page 10429

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Okay.

 2        Q.   Mr. Dawes, let me just turn away from this for a second, and I

 3     had attempted to go through this exercise prior to court today.  You were

 4     in contact with the Gotovina Defence prior to coming to The Hague to meet

 5     with you to discuss these matter, were you not?

 6        A.   Are you talking about the one that happened a couple of years ago

 7     in Calgary?

 8        Q.   I'm talking about recent e-mail traffic with Mr. Stanton?

 9        A.   Is that Mike there?  It's been a couple of years.  Yeah, that's

10     correct.  He contacted me approximately a week ago, maybe longer.

11        Q.   And you informed him at that time that you were willing to meet

12     the Gotovina Defence when you got to The Hague.  Isn't that right?

13        A.   I believe that I said I would be in contact with them.

14        Q.   But when the request came to talk to you within the latter part

15     of last week, you declined?

16        A.   That's correct.

17        Q.   Did you discuss that with members of the Office of the

18     Prosecutor?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   What did they tell you?

21        A.   They didn't tell me either way.  They just said that I had a

22     right to see the Defence counsel if I wished to seem them.

23        Q.   So, when you told Mr. Stanton prior to coming here that you would

24     be in contact, what did you think that meant?

25        A.   That either party would try and reach out and touch base with

Page 10430

 1     each other before the trial started.

 2        Q.   But you refused to do that.

 3        A.   I chose not to do that, that's correct.

 4        Q.   And why was that, sir?

 5        A.   I had just finished a seven-month tour in Afghanistan, and my

 6     wife met me in Holland and I had over things on my mind.

 7        Q.   Well --

 8        A.   No more than that.

 9        Q.   You did meet with the Office of the Prosecutor, though.

10        A.   Correct, to go over my statement that I made in April.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I would like to object to the relevance

13     of this.  I believe the witness has already indicated that he didn't want

14     to talk and why.  I'm not sure what the benefit of going into any more of

15     this is about.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Well, I find it somewhat remarkable that on -- and we

17     can do this outside of the presence of the witness because this is it not

18     an isolated witness, and I brought it to the attention of the Prosecutor.

19     This is not the first instances where this happened.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let's not discuss it in the presence of the

21     witness.  The witness has explained why he has chosen not to meet with

22     you.  I'm not encouraging you to --

23             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  -- further deal with the matter.  Although, of

25     course, I do not know what you have in your mind, so I'm not keeping you

Page 10431

 1     off strictly, but the guidance may be clear.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, sir.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dawes, from your statement, you got to the area in May of

 8     1994.  And when you had arrived there, there had already been a huge

 9     displacement of Croats, hadn't there?

10        A.   Absolutely.

11        Q.   And, approximately, how many Croats did you learn had been

12     displaced from the Krajina when you got there?

13        A.   I would not know the figure.  I would know it to be a large

14     figure.

15        Q.   Are you talking about thousands and thousands?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And, virtually all of the young Croats had left the Krajina,

18     hadn't they?

19        A.   Absolutely.

20        Q.   And --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear Mr. Kehoe.  Please

22     speak into the microphone.  Thank you.  I know it's far.

23             MR. KEHOE:  That's the first time I have been accused of not

24     being heard, Judge.  It's taken me back a bit, but I will do my best.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Take care that it doesn't happen again.

Page 10432

 1             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 2        Q.   Likewise, by the time you got there, virtually all of the Croat

 3     houses had been destroyed.  Is that right?

 4        A.   Absolutely.

 5        Q.   Now, when you were there prior to Operation Storm, were any of

 6     the UN personnel taking any steps to find out who was responsible for the

 7     destruction of those Croat houses?

 8        A.   I would not know personally myself, but I would definitely make

 9     the assumption that, yes, that would be accurate.

10        Q.   Did you ever see any reports on that score?

11        A.   Just what I would read in the news, nothing official.

12        Q.   When you also were travelling through the Krajina prior to

13     Operation Storm, you noted that the churches in the Croat villages were

14     destroyed, weren't they?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And the destroyed churches included the churches in -- or the

17     Catholic church in Knin?

18        A.   Absolutely.

19        Q.   Let me just turn your attention to your observations to the

20     actual people in the Krajina, the Serbs, and this is prior to Operation

21     Storm?

22             Is it accurate to say that virtually the entire Krajina Serb

23     population was armed, weren't they?

24        A.   I would say that fighting age males were armed.  I never saw

25     women carrying weapons.

Page 10433

 1        Q.   And fighting age men went from 18 to almost 60, didn't they?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   And for you, Mr. Dawes, going through, it was difficult for you

 4     to know, looking at a Serb, whether or not that person was a civilian or

 5     was in the ARSK because of the clothing that they wore.

 6        A.   Yes and no, if I can explain.

 7        Q.   Of course.

 8        A.   You're right, in general, that male Serbs, even when they weren't

 9     on the front line, they were ordered to carry weapons with them because

10     they were part of the militia; but, usually, the ones that weren't

11     carrying weapons and didn't have on a full combat dress were, they

12     usually civilians.

13        Q.   And when you were saying that the civilians were carrying

14     weapons -- these individuals, excuse me, carrying weapons walking around,

15     they were walking around town with their AK-47s?

16        A.   Absolutely.

17        Q.   Now, with regard to the population in the Krajina, it's a fact,

18     is it not, that you, when you were living in Knin, had a neighbour who

19     had an anti-aircraft weapon on his patio, didn't he?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Describe this -- describe this weapon for us?

22        A.   Twin-barrelled anti-aircraft weapon, probably around a

23     20-millimetre-type that you would sit in.  It would have the arms is what

24     I would call them, where you could move it in a 360 direction.  Usually,

25     when the Serbs won a football game or a basketball game, he would light

Page 10434

 1     it up at night.  That was the only anti-aircraft weapon I saw in Knin,

 2     and that was my neighbours house, if I could point to the map of Knin, by

 3     the barracks.

 4        Q.   Well, using this P62 that is on the screen, could you circle

 5     that, please.

 6        A.   Sure.  I want to get this right.  Approximately in that area.

 7        Q.   And you're circling an area on the left-hand side of the road,

 8     north of -- on the road west of the northern barracks.

 9        A.   Bad with directions, again.  That's basically where it is.

10        Q.   Now, was that where you lived or is that where this anti-aircraft

11     weapon was?

12        A.   Both.  Just so you know, I didn't live there the whole time.

13     When I first moved to Knin, that was the first house I lived in; and

14     after a couple of months, I left that residence; no water.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer this item into

16     evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  For those who are trying to find the marking,

18     it's in the middle of the map, small blue circle, to the northern edge of

19     the map.

20             Mr. Russo.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Apologies, again, Your Honour.  No objection.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D858.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  D858 is admitted into evidence.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 10435

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Dawes, you mentioned that your neighbour fired it at

 2     football games.  He also fired it at aircraft that were passing over

 3     head, didn't he?

 4        A.   It is an anti-aircraft weapon, so I would probably say yes.

 5        Q.   Well, did he not fire it at drones that were flying about the

 6     area?

 7        A.   That was standard protocol for the Serbs to fire at drones.

 8        Q.   Now, sir, let me just shift gears.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

10             MR. KEHOE:  Sorry.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  We heard about what was standard procedure.

12             Did you ever see this happen?  Did you ever hear this happen?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  That's clear.

15             Please proceed.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   When you told us "this is the only anti-aircraft weapon," this is

18     the only anti-aircraft weapon in the area that you saw?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Now, let us talk for a bit about some of the items that are in

21     your statement.

22             Now, in your statement -- actually, in your testimony, you were

23     talking about the black market for petrol.  Is that right?

24        A.   Absolutely.

25        Q.   How large was this black market in the Krajina prior to Operation

Page 10436

 1     Storm; do you have any idea?

 2        A.   Yes, I do have an idea.  The black market was the real economy in

 3     the Krajina, in the sense that if you wanted to purchase luxury goods,

 4     patrol, tobacco, items like that, you would purchase them on the black

 5     market.  You wouldn't purchase them in a shop; you would buy them on the

 6     side of the road.

 7        Q.   So, from your experience - and correct me if I'm wrong - from

 8     your experience, it was a large organised crime element in the Krajina

 9     prior to Operation Storm.

10        A.   I wouldn't know of that.  I guess, is your definition of selling

11     things on the black market criminal?

12        Q.   Well, if you're talking about the black market, that's what I'm

13     referring to.

14        A.   The standard protocol to buy fuel is on the back market, so that

15     would make them criminals, then, yes.

16        Q.   Would you include the theft of UN vehicles as part of this black

17     market?

18        A.   I wouldn't -- yes, it was an industry to steal UN vehicles.

19        Q.   And the theft of these vehicles was quite prevalent, wasn't it?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And how many times did it happen to you?

22        A.   Three or four times, in Sector South.

23        Q.   So, on three or four occasions in Sector South, you had UN

24     vehicles taken from you by Krajina Serbs at gunpoint, I trust?

25        A.   Definitely at gunpoint.

Page 10437

 1        Q.   And then taken to another location, to be disposed of in some

 2     fashion.  Is that right?

 3        A.   I only saw one of my vehicles later on that was driven by a Serb

 4     in town, so I don't know what they did with them.  The rumour has it that

 5     they go to Bosnia for a re- haul, i.e., paint them.

 6        Q.   Well, these people, these individuals that were stealing these

 7     vehicles and sending them to Bosnia to have them repainted, were they

 8     part of a criminal organised crime element in the area?

 9        A.   I don't know if it was organised or not.  I just know that it was

10     going on.

11        Q.   Now, was there -- were there any occasions, Mr. Dawes, where UN

12     personnel allowed their vehicles to be taken in return for money?

13        A.   Not that I was aware of.

14        Q.   Now, in addition to the automobiles, there was the instance you

15     mentioned about fuel.  Now, was that particular dissemination of fuel in

16     the black market, was that organised?

17        A.   Let's be specific.  Where there was once petrol stations in Knin,

18     they didn't fill up the big tanks anymore.  They filled up them in small

19     Pepsi bottles, and sold them in outside the gas pumps.  So that is the

20     type of what you refer to as black market fuel, I believe.

21        Q.   Pardon me, sir, you referred to black market fuel this morning in

22     direct examination with Mr. Russo.  I'm just using the words that you

23     used approximately an hour and a half ago.

24        A.   That fuel was sold at the petrol stations.  I could mark it on

25     the map for you, if you wanted to.

Page 10438

 1        Q.   So that's the black market that you were talking about?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, you lived in the area for sometime prior to Storm, as

 4     we -- as noted in your statement.  We need not go into all of the

 5     details.  But you were in contact with the ARSK governmental authorities

 6     on a regular basis, weren't you?

 7        A.   Correct.

 8        Q.   I mean, they had a degree of -- or they had a high degree of

 9     involvement in the properties that you leased for UN personnel.  Isn't

10     that right?

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   They had -- they had authority over what local staff was hired by

13     the UN, didn't they?

14        A.   That was a rumour.  I don't know yes or no to that answer [sic].

15        Q.   Let me show D1, Defence exhibit D1.

16             MR. KEHOE:  Just go to the first page, at the beginning.

17        Q.   Mr. Dawes, this is the agreement between the government of the

18     Republic of Serbian Krajina and the United Nations on the status of the

19     UN Protection Force.

20             MR. KEHOE:  And if I could turn to page 3.

21        Q.   Dealing with UNPROFOR facilities, paragraph 13:  "The RSK

22     government shall charge UNPROFOR, in agreement with the forces command,

23     provide premises for the headquarters, camp," et cetera, "that may be

24     needed to carry out UNPROFOR operative and administrative activities, and

25     for accommodation of UNPROFOR members."

Page 10439

 1             I realize this is UNPROFOR, not UNCRO --

 2        A.   I understand what UNPROFOR is.

 3        Q.   All right.  Was this the operative agreement that you were --

 4     that you were using in your dealings with the RSK?

 5        A.   I guess I could start with my rank in the UN would be of like a

 6     corporal.  I have never seen this document before.  This would be

 7     something that the higher ups would be looking at.  I followed direction

 8     from my boss in Zagreb on how we implemented land lease transactions.  I

 9     have never seen this before.

10        Q.   And realizing that you have never seen it before, let me ask you

11     about the contents once we read it.

12             MR. KEHOE:  And if we could turn to paragraph 18.

13        Q.   That first sentence, if you could read it for us, Mr. Dawes.

14        A.   Of 18?

15        Q.   Of paragraph 18.

16        A.   "UNPROFOR shall engage local staff that they need only through

17     the government agency for commercial relations with international

18     organisations, and agreement ..."  --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you want the witness to read it aloud.

20             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, Judge.

21             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  No problem with that, but also when you start

23     reading, speed of speech goes up, so if you read it just for yourself.

24             THE WITNESS:  Gotcha.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Now, it was fine that you read it.  It was either me

Page 10440

 1     reading or you reading.  It was perfectly okay.

 2        A.   Good to go.

 3        Q.   On that particular sentence, were you aware that the UNPROFOR,

 4     the UN, had to hire local staff through the RSK?

 5        A.   No, I was not, and nor did I hire any staff.  They were all hired

 6     by the time I got there, local staff in Knin.

 7        Q.   Mr. Dawes, were you aware that the RSK was using local staff to

 8     gather intelligence?

 9        A.   No, I was not aware of that.

10        Q.   Let me show you a document.

11             MR. KEHOE:  1D57-0017.

12        Q.   This is a report from the General Staff of the ARSK, talking

13     about Operation Action or Karlovac?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Kehoe, earlier I have expressed the view

15     of the Chamber that witnesses are here to tell what you say they know and

16     not to be educated.  Of course, if you have any reasonable ground to

17     believe that if a witness sees a document, that suddenly something will

18     come into his mind on the matter on which he said before that he didn't

19     know anything about it, then, of course, if there's a reasonable ground

20     to believe that that will happen, we'll let you go.  But, at the same

21     time, let's not put to the witness the evidence of things he apparently

22     doesn't know.

23             MR. KEHOE:  And my question, Judge, is some of the content and

24     identification of individuals I would like to inquire of the witness

25     about.

Page 10441

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, yes, then, of course, the easiest way is to

 2     first ask him whether a name ranges bell; and then if he says, yes, then,

 3     of course, you can put another document to him, not the other way around.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, this is a document, sir, from the security department of the

 7     ARSK.  In the first sentence, it says:  "The UNPROFOR translator in

 8     southern barracks (department of civilian affairs), a certain Jelena

 9     (most likely Pribojan) for reasons unknown, revealed to our source

10     information that the HV was going to conduct aggression against the

11     RSK ..."

12             MR. KEHOE:  If we could turn to the second page of this document.

13        Q.   In the third paragraph, it continues concerning comments made by

14     Jelena.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Then, once again, on the last page of this document.

16        Q.   Again, talking about Jelena in the second paragraph.

17             Now, Mr. Dawes, do you know this women, Jelena?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   In the --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, that is exactly the question I would have

21     expected you to ask first, whether he knew of any translator by the name

22     of Jelena, because then we could have skipped all of this.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. KEHOE:  There are some other items in these documents that I

25     would like do ask the witness about just briefly.

Page 10442

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  But, again, let's see what the witness

 2     can tell us.  Let's not take him through a whole story and then ask him,

 3     "Did you know the person?"  "No, I didn't know the person."

 4             So please keep this in mind.  I asked to you do this two minutes

 5     ago; nevertheless, you continued with the document instead of putting the

 6     first question:  "Do you know any translator by the name of ..." --

 7             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... understand, Judge.  I

 8     understand.  I will --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... you say you understand,

10     but, apparently, I have to explain it to you twice before you really

11     understand.

12             Please proceed.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, there was some content in the document

14     that I wanted to address, and I'm going to into in detail right now.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Mr. Dawes, on the third paragraph of this page, it talks about

18     setting up a signalling system from inside the Sector South base.  During

19     your stay at UN Sector South, did you become aware of that in any

20     fashion?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Going down to the bottom of this page on the insert that says

23     "the 13th of November," it notes the Jordanian battalion was replaced

24     with the Canadian battalion, and this indicates a better possibility of

25     cooperation.

Page 10443

 1             Do you have any idea, based on your significant time at UN

 2     Sector South, why the ARSK would believe that there would be better

 3     cooperation in detailing with the Canadians than dealing with the

 4     Jordanian Battalion?

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I'm going to object to the

 6     foundation of that question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if we understand the question to be that

 8     Mr. Kehoe would like to know whether the witness is acquainted with any

 9     fact which could explain this expectation in the RSK, then the witness

10     can answer.

11             Is that what your question was about?

12             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             THE WITNESS:  I have no idea what that means.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I will -- since the witness does not who

16     the individual is, I will at the appropriate time bar table some other

17     documents on that score, and don't need to address them at this juncture.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I think we suggested a procedure for bar table that

19     we would know at least what it is about, because since the witness cannot

20     tell us anything about the documents is, as such, not great information

21     for us to see whether they should accept it or not.

22             But I think we made suggestions earlier on how to deal with bar

23     table documents.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Prior to moving on, though, I will move into evidence

Page 10444

 1     across bar table 1D57-0017.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Which was what?  Because I don't have--

 3             MR. KEHOE:  It is the document -- the three-page document on the

 4     screen.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D859.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  D859 is admitted into evidence.

10             MR. KEHOE:  If I could turn our attention to 1D57-0023.

11             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, now that I have actually read the

12     document and instructions on the signal board --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             THE WITNESS:  -- and I have read the actual contents, the UN has,

15     for each camp it operates, has a different threat assessment for what

16     state of threat we are in currently.  I forget the specifics of it, but

17     basically green/good, red/bad.  That -- those flags would flutter each

18     day to what threat level our internal camp was at, with regards to

19     aggression from the RSK.

20             So instructions on the signal board, I'm just reading it now and

21     it is obvious that that's our own UN interpretation of the local threat

22     level in Knin, either airborne threat, ground threat, what's the general

23     mood of Sector South, not necessarily a nefarious act.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say what you read here, apparently those who

25     drafted the document understood what your signalling system was and which

Page 10445

 1     was publicly displayed.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Sir, did you publicly disclose your signalling system to the RSK

 6     government on a daily basis?

 7        A.   I would not know.  I'm not part of the military.  The only thing

 8     I know is that at the front of the each camp in the UN, we would have a

 9     standard signalling board, where we would show that the vehicles going

10     out of the camp would what threat level they were going into, and it was

11     a flag system based on colour-coded flags.

12        Q.   And by the way, what was that threat level op the morning of

13     the 4th.

14        A.   It was dark.  I don't know.  I wasn't at the front gate at 4.00

15     or 5.00 in the morning.

16        Q.   Well, do you know what the threat level was between 3.45 and

17     5.00?

18        A.   No, I don't.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Let us turn to another document, 1D57-0023.

20        Q.   This is a report from the 2nd of December involving Plavana, who

21     in the other documents is identified as Jelena Pribojan.

22             If we could look at the second page that mentions you, Mr. Dawes,

23     this is at the 2nd of December.  Notes a meeting with Agent Plava.

24             Second paragraph:  At approximately 1100 hours in the office of

25     the agent, Murray Dawes entered," another translator was present," and

Page 10446

 1     said:  'Croatians have concentrated significant forces throughout the

 2     whole of Dalmatia, and are planning to bring in new forces, pack your

 3     children, and go to Belgrade with your family.  You will surely be

 4     attacked within the next two or three days.'"

 5             Now, Mr. Dawes, first, were you authorised in the UN to transmit

 6     military information to the civilian personnel in UN Sector South?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Well --

 9        A.   I don't have a security clearance in the UN.  I was -- I don't

10     pass military information on.  I'm not part of the military.

11        Q.   Well, you see before you an item where you are identified by name

12     entering the office of the agent, who is identified in the other

13     documents as Jelena Pribojan.

14             Did you pass this information on to the local staff?

15        A.   I would not believe so.  I wouldn't do that.

16        Q.   Let us go down to the next paragraph, and you see the next name,

17     Kmetic Igor; Igor Kmetic.

18             Do you know who he is?

19        A.   I believe I do.  He is a translator.

20        Q.   And do you know anything about him and his family?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And what do you know?

23        A.   He was an UN translator whose father was ex-JNA, and they lived

24     in Knin during the war.

25        Q.   Did you have contact with that family when you --  when they --

Page 10447

 1     or did they come into UN Sector South headquarters after the 4th or 5th

 2     of August of 1995?

 3        A.   Correct.  They were refugees in the camp.

 4        Q.   Did you have contact with the father during that time?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   I'll come back to that later.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer into evidence

 8     1D57-0023.

 9             MR. RUSSO:  No objection.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D860, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D860 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KEHOE:  Now, for information purposes, I would like to put up

14     on the screen --

15        Q.   Before we do this, by the way, sir, during your time in the

16     Krajina, you were subjected to quite a bit of Serb propaganda against the

17     Croat, weren't you?

18        A.   Yes, of course.

19        Q.   It was constant, wasn't it?

20        A.   Absolutely.  I was also beaten up, pistol-whipped, and robbed

21     three times at gunpoint by the Serbs.

22        Q.   Did you not tell Mr. Stanton or during interview that when the

23     events -- because of the period of time you this spent there and the time

24     you had lived with the Serbs, that when Operation Storm took place, it

25     was hard not to take the side of the Serbs.  Didn't you say that?

Page 10448

 1        A.   I can't remember what I said, but I do remember that I lived with

 2     the Serbs and made friends with Serb.  I never had a chance to do that on

 3     the Croatian side because I was never working in a Croatian area.  So,

 4     yeah, I would agree that I knew the Serbs in Knin.

 5        Q.   So the answer to my question is yes, when Operation Storm took

 6     place, you took the side of the Serbs, didn't you?

 7        A.   When Operation Storm was happening and I was beg shelled by the

 8     Croatian army, I didn't like it very much.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you said:  "So, the answer to my question

10     is yes ..."

11             What is your question?

12             MR. KEHOE:  My question, if we go back, is --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Is what he said to Mr. Stanton, that was it was hard

14     not to take the side of, isn't it?  So you asked him what he said; and

15     then to introduce that in the next question as, "So the answer to my

16     question is yes, when Operation Storm took, place you took the side of

17     the Serbs," that's not the same.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  You are aware of the difference.

20             MR. KEHOE:  I can split that up, Your Honour, and say --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just inviting you not to suggest that the answer

22     the witness gave is the answer as you formulated it, because that was not

23     the answer he gave.

24             Please proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Maybe I'll just clarify it by repeating the question,

Page 10449

 1     and that may be easier, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, please.

 3             MR. KEHOE:

 4        Q.   The question was:  "Did you not tell Mr. Stanton that because of

 5     the period of time you had spent there, meaning in the Krajina, and that

 6     time that you had lived with the Serbs, that when Operation Storm took

 7     place, it was hard not to take the side of the Serbs."  Didn't you say

 8     that?

 9        A.   I can't remember if I said that.

10        Q.   Did you -- did you observe, during this period of time, that the

11     Serbs that were working inside Sector South were attempting to influence

12     the UN's perception of the Krajina Serbs?

13        A.   If they were doing that, they did a very poor job.

14        Q.   Let me show a statement.

15             MR. KEHOE:  This is 1D41-0149.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

17             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, before we show the witness the

18     statement, I would ask that we adhere to the procedure with regard to

19     directing or questioning Mr. Dawes as to what he knows about a particular

20     subject before he is shown what another witness says about a subject.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Kehoe, until now only said that he is

22     showing a statement.  I have got no idea whether that is a statement of

23     another witness or not.

24             MR. KEHOE:  It is, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll adhere to the procedure that we first

Page 10450

 1     elicit from the witness the evidence he can give on it, and if there's

 2     then any reason to put the statement of another witness to the witness,

 3     you may do so.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Just for ease of reference, for

 6     the record, I will see whether or not he knows about this, but the

 7     statement I will be referring to, so Your Honour knows that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If there's any need, we'll find more about --

 9             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:

12        Q.   During this period, Mr. Dawes, did you know that the sole

13     objective of the RSK was to obstruct the work of the UN -- excuse me, the

14     ECMM and later the UN, that they did everything to keep the UN and ECMM

15     from finding out the truth and repeatedly supplied them with

16     misinformation?

17             Were you aware that that was going on?

18        A.   No.  I would not be surprised if that was going on, but I wasn't

19     directly aware that that was going on.

20        Q.   You were aware, sir, that many of the UN personnel had become

21     very close to the locals, had they not?

22        A.   Absolutely.

23        Q.   And that includes Sergeant Engleby, didn't it?

24        A.   Sergeant Engleby with the Canadian Armed Forces, that is more

25     than correct.  He ended up marrying one of them.

Page 10451

 1        Q.   But the contact with the local population became an area of

 2     concern for the UN, didn't it?

 3        A.   Not to my knowledge.

 4        Q.   Now, I'm going to touch on a few matters concerning items that

 5     you talk about in your statement, and the first area that I'd like to

 6     address with you is that time just prior to Operation Storm.

 7             And you note in your 1996 statement at page 2, that, prior to the

 8     fall of Grahovo, morale was high.  Then page 3 of your 1996 statement,

 9     you note that morale went through the basement.

10             Is that right?

11        A.   Toilet, basement.

12        Q.   And there was a call-up of virtually all fighting personnel after

13     the fall of Grahovo, wasn't there?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, if I may, tell us about the steps that were taken after the

16     fall of Grahovo for the Serb population to leave the Krajina?

17        A.   Up to Grahovo, a couple of months before Grahovo fell, the RSK

18     effectively sealed the border with Bosnia to stop its people from

19     leaving.  Obviously, they needed to have somebody there.  When the

20     possibility of Grahovo falling, which seemed absurd at one point, when

21     Grahovo was sensed to be falling or there was a possibility that it could

22     fail, the main supply route into Bosnia was opened and you could leave at

23     your own leisure, I was told.  I didn't see it with my own eyes.

24             Sorry.  Again, what was your question?

25        Q.   Well, my question is:  After the fall of Grahovo, tell us about

Page 10452

 1     the Serb population who left the area.

 2        A.   It seemed like the population --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Excuse me, Mr. Kehoe.  That was not your question.

 4     The question was about steps that were taken after the fall of Grahovo

 5     for the Serb population to leave the Krajina.

 6             Of course, "steps taken" is not the same as people leaving the

 7     area, and I would like to have it cleared.

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I will, Judge.  I am trying.  I will stay with this

 9     particular area, and I'm just letting the witness talk about that.  But I

10     will go with the question I had, which is --

11             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... of course, I would be

12     interested to know the answer to that question.  So the witness then

13     asked what the question was.  Then let's put that question to him again,

14     so we can hear his answer.

15             What then later may have happened, whether people left, the

16     question was about steps taken, were taken after the fall of Grahovo for

17     the Serb population to leave the Krajina, and perhaps later we come to

18     whether these steps were effective or not effective.  So that was the

19     question.

20             THE WITNESS:  Once Grahovo fell --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I ignored Mr. Kuzmanovic.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sorry, Your Honour.  I will let him answer the

23     question.  I just wanted to correct something on the transcript, and I

24     will remember it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Please.

Page 10453

 1             Please answer the question:  What steps were taken after the fall

 2     of Grahovo for Serbs to leave the area.

 3             THE WITNESS:  None that I could see, in the short answer, Your

 4     Honour.  If anything, the population of Knin swelled to more people after

 5     the fall of Grahovo, and people were -- were waiting for the war to

 6     start.  There was a general perception in town that -- that the Croatians

 7     were going to -- trying to retake back their land.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Were any efforts made for Serbs to leave?

10        A.   There was a severe fuel shortage in Knin, so I can't answer your

11     question yes or no.  I can just remember that a lot of people would have

12     liked to have left, but there wasn't enough fuel for them to leave.

13        Q.   Did you try to get anybody out?

14        A.   I tried to get one family out, tried.  I offered my advice for

15     them to get out.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe --

17             MR. KEHOE:

18        Q.   And who was that?

19        A.   Gordana Zunic.

20        Q.   And who was Gordana Zunic?

21        A.   Gordana Zunic was the translator for the accommodation section --

22     the camp services sections, actually.

23        Q.   Did you take any steps to get any other personnel out?

24        A.   Not that I can remember.

25        Q.   Now --

Page 10454

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  While we're waiting in the pause, page 70,

 3     line -- the answer on line 11, I'm not sure that the witness answered the

 4     question in that way in the second sentence of the answer.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I heard him say something different as a

 6     matter of fact.

 7             When you were telling us about Sergeant Engleby, did he marry a

 8     local.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  On the transcript, it appears that you did.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Dawes, why did you want to get Gordana Zunic out?

14        A.   She was applying to become a Canadian citizen, and it would be a

15     lot more difficult for her to continue her -- sorry, the paperwork,

16     because she would have been dealing specifically with the Canadian

17     embassy in Belgrade.  Obviously, after Operation Storm, she would have to

18     be dealing with the Croatian -- Canadian embassy in Zagreb.  I don't even

19     believe there was an official consulate then, or just a consulate, not a

20     full-blown embassy.  The paperwork started in Belgrade.  It would be best

21     for her to finish in Belgrade so she could become a Canadian citizen.

22     That was started by previous French Canadian officers before I arrived.

23        Q.   Before --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 10455

 1        Q.   Just looking at what you just said, I mean, Mr. Dawes, how did

 2     you know that prior to the morning of the 4th, that Ms. Zunic was going

 3     to end up in Belgrade?

 4        A.   I didn't.  At least that's not what I meant to say.  I didn't

 5     know she was going to end up in Belgrade.

 6        Q.   Page 74, line 3.

 7        A.   I don't think I have page 74 in front of me.

 8        Q.   "I dont' even believe there was an official consulate then, or

 9     just a consulate, not a full-blown embassy.  The paperwork started in

10     Belgrade.  It would be best for her to finish in Belgrade."

11        A.   Yeah, the paperwork for her Canadian citizen was started the year

12     before in Belgrade.

13        Q.   Let me show you D513.

14                           [Defence counsel confer]

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   This is the diary of Major Claude Bellerose.

17             MR. KEHOE:  If we can to page for entry of the 29th, it would be

18     page 31.  If we can go three more pages up to 619, three more pages,

19     please, and the bottom of that page.

20        Q.   This talks about the -- well, at point 3:  "The general

21     mobilization is happening in town."

22             Top of the next page:  "Locals are leaving the area."

23             And number 4, for the entry for the 30th -- excuse me, for the

24     29th:  "Murray Dawes is trying to get Gordana, his interpreter/secretary,

25     out."

Page 10456

 1             So we have a period of time from this where there is a general

 2     mobilisation.  Major Bellerose says the locals are leaving, and at the

 3     same time, you're trying to get Gordona out.

 4             Is that time sequence correct?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 6             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I would like to make an objection to the

 7     procedure being used here.  I understand showing him the portion that

 8     says -- well, actually, I'm not sure I do understand.  The witness -- the

 9     questions were asked of him about the general mobilisation.  He was asked

10     about locals leaving prior to Operation Storm, and he asked about whether

11     or not he tried to help Gordana Zunic out.  He gave answers to all of

12     those.

13             I would like to object to the witness being shown what is

14     essentially the statement of another witness, whether to the effect that

15     it agrees with what he said or disagrees with what he said.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the guidance was that this evidence should be

17     elicited first with the witness, which is has been done.  Therefore, now

18     if Mr. Kehoe wants to put further questions, of course if this would

19     confirm, then, of course, then we would just establish that it

20     corroborates.  If it is something different, I think it should be clear

21     from the question to the witness.

22             Please proceed.

23             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge, this is also an item which is in

24     evidence.

25        Q.   Is this the sequence of events as to how the Gordana situation

Page 10457

 1     came up as laid out by Major --

 2             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I would object to that --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... what exactly here is the

 4     sequence?  Could you please illustrate for us what --

 5             MR. KEHOE:  The sequence of events is this, Judge:  There is a

 6     general mobilization on the 28th.  He notes that the locals are leaving.

 7     On the 29th, he notes that "Murray Dawes is trying to get Gordona out."

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9             Is that your recollection as well, that that is how it happened?

10             THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure of the specific instance; but, in

11     general, we were trying to get Gordana Zunic out to so she could become a

12     Canadian citizen; not necessarily out of Knin, but, generally, out of the

13     area.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Of course, you were asked about this event, that is,

15     you were trying to get Gordana Zunic out, in relation to other people

16     leaving.  That's, I think, the sequence we're talking about.

17             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge, it is also the date.  The date is of

18     significant.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That is why I'm talking about the sequence:  What

20     happened first, what next --

21             Mr. Russo, let's just see.

22             In this diary, it's described that people are leaving the area,

23     and that's described for the 28th.  I can't see it on my screen anymore.

24     And then on the 29th, it's described that you're trying to get Gordana

25     out.  Is that your recollection also as far as the sequence of events is

Page 10458

 1     concerned?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Now, at the run-up of storm, was there -- now, I'm just talking

 6     about just prior to Storm.  Was there a movement, among the civilian

 7     population - I'm not about an organised movement - was there a movement

 8     just before Storm for the civilian population to leave the Knin area?

 9        A.   They were getting their ducks in a row in case that possibility

10     happened.  They were organising for that eventuality, yes.

11        Q.   How were they organising for that eventuality?

12        A.   What were the bus routes, were the buses still running, where can

13     I buy petrol, issues like that, Where were we going to go.

14        Q.   Let me turn you to D514 in evidence, which is an article written

15     by Major Bellerose.

16             MR. KEHOE:  If we could if to the second page, the left hand

17     column, towards the top.

18        Q.   It notes about halfway down that page:  "Well, on the refugee

19     side ..." --

20             MR. KEHOE:  That's toward the top now.  Okay, that's good.

21        Q.   "Well, on the refugee side, a lot of people from Knin fled that

22     night just before the bombardment, just like someone had given them a

23     heads autopsy and fled.  It was apparently well organised."

24             Did you observe that?

25        A.   No.  When you said the ramp-up to Desert Storm, you're talking

Page 10459

 1     about the few days before that, I am assuming?

 2        Q.   Yes, I am.

 3        A.   I did not notice that.

 4        Q.   So you did not notice this incident that Major Bellerose is

 5     talking about the night before?

 6        A.   No. I'm sure you could ask him though.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Now, sir, just prior to Storm, you yourself had moved into -- or

10     you had moved in UN Sector South, hadn't you?

11        A.   Into the barracks, correct.

12        Q.   And when was that?

13        A.   I'm not sure of the date.  A couple of months maybe, not sure.

14        Q.   So when we say "a couple of months," you are talking about you

15     moved in sometime in June?

16        A.   Yeah.  You know, I'm just throwing a dart at the dartboard.  I

17     wouldn't be able to tell you the specific date when he moved on to the

18     camp.

19        Q.   Now, talking itself about the 4th of August, obviously, sir, you

20     had no combat experience prior to the 4th of August.  Is that right?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And during the situation, I noticed during the course of your

23     testimony that your tension and your fear factor naturally was quite

24     high?

25        A.   Off the scale.

Page 10460

 1        Q.   Nevertheless, sir, you went out in this details to pick up

 2     personnel during the course of the morning of the 4th.  Is that right?

 3        A.   That's correct.

 4        Q.   Now, as a result of this fear and tension, are you sure that your

 5     assessment not only the events but of the timing of your doing things are

 6     accurate?

 7        A.   As best can be.  I wasn't looking at my watch.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Now you notice -- I notice in your statement with regard

 9     to your first trip out -- and by the way, sir, you didn't feel like you

10     were the proper person to go out and do this, did you?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Now, you note that your first trip out - and I'm turning to the

13     bottom of page 3, going over to page 4, to top - it was around 6.00.  Is

14     that right?

15        A.   Give or take.

16        Q.   Well, did you say that -- just -- I don't want you to guess here

17     because I just want you to look at your statement, and the actual time is

18     set forth on page 4, approximately one, two, three -- seven lines from

19     the top.

20        A.   I guess my only point was that I might this statement 12 years

21     ago; so, obviously, 12 years ago, I thought it was around 6.00 a.m.

22             I don't know the exact time 12 years later.

23        Q.   So based on that answer, you would say that what you wrote down

24     12 years ago was more reliable than what you can give us in 2008?

25        A.   Obviously, yes.  Yes.

Page 10461

 1        Q.   Let us go through this statement, and you note in this that you

 2     pick up Alun Roberts first.  He is the first person you pick up, and I

 3     believe that is on the top of page 4.  Is that right?

 4        A.   That's what I wrote.

 5        Q.   Is that what you did?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Let us turn to P276, page 16 -- excuse me, I'm sorry.

 8     P676, I apologise.  676, I misspoke, page 16.

 9        Q.   This is the statement of Mr. Roberts.

10             MR. KEHOE:  It would be the third page in there.  Two more pages,

11     please, towards the bottom of that page:  "At about 8.40 ..."

12        Q.   Do you see that:  "At around 8.40 hours that morning, Friday,

13     4 August, an UN armoured patrol carrier picked me up from outside my

14     accommodation.  Shells were still coming in, falling not only on the

15     central government and military buildings of Knin but also on apartment

16     blocks.  One of the civilians picked up, and inside the armed patrol

17     carrier was UN interpreter at Sector South, Gordana Zunic."

18             If I may, just with -- and Mr. Dreyer, at 1789, talking about his

19     third trip.  1789, line 2, where he certainly says that:  "My third trip

20     started 8.30, so I tuned [sic] just before 8.30."

21             Bottom of that page line 55 at 1789:  "Referring back to my

22     statement, it indicates I departed at 8.30.

23             "Q.  And do you recall who went with you at that time?  And you

24     can refer back to your statement.

25             "A.  Reading my statement at paragraph 14, it indicates that I

Page 10462

 1     changed from a Jordanian APC to Czech APCs," and refers to, "I took

 2     Mr. Dawes with me."  So that would be Murray Dawes.

 3        A.   No other Dawes.  .

 4        Q.   So it would be accurate to say that your first trip out was not

 5     at 6.00 but at 8.30, and that you went to pick up Gordana Zunic before

 6     you ever picked up Mr. Roberts?

 7        A.   No.  I am saying that my story was that I left at that time in

 8     the morning, and either he is bad at timekeeping or I'm bad timekeeping.

 9     But on the first trip, it was our SOP to pick up Gordana Zunic because

10     she was the person who had all the telephone numbers of everybody and

11     where they lived in Knin.  So that is why we picked her up on that trip.

12             Now, whether we picked her up before Alun Roberts or after, I

13     can't remember.

14        Q.   With regard to the timing of this trip, what time do you recall

15     picking up Mr. Roberts?

16        A.   Not a clue.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, I don't know if you want to take a break

18     at this time or you want to move on.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  If this is a suitable moment for you to have a

20     break, then we'll have a break.

21             We resume at five minutes to 1.00.

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 10463

 1        Q.   Mr. Dawes, I'd just like to talk to you about -- okay?

 2        A.   Yeah.

 3        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to talk to you about your first trip down to Knin

 4     on the 4thn, and it may be best to use P984.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  And, Your Honour, I will be guided by what Your

 6     Honour thinks.  Frankly, I have to agree with my learned friend that the

 7     digitally-enhanced photograph is better than that which will come up as

 8     984 which is on the screen.  We may want to put up just to see how it

 9     looks.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I have the hard copy at least of the

11     digitally-enhanced copy with me.

12             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I believe it has been uploaded as 5961,

13     so we can pull it up on e-court.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we could do that.

15             MR. KEHOE:  If we could do that, that would be helpful.  Thank

16     you very much.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             MR. RUSSO:  My apologies, Your Honour.  5961 appears to be the

19     same as --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  Let's work on the basis of this document

21     then.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think that will work,

23     Mr. President.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This is the one I prefer.

25             MR. KEHOE:

Page 10464

 1        Q.   Mr. Dawes, just taking your testimony and the drawings that you

 2     made, the first place you stopped going around the road was D, the bus

 3     station, and A, the ARSK headquarters.  Is that right?

 4        A.   Definitely D, the bus station, and I think there's an

 5     interpretation of what the headquarters building is.  Is that the --

 6        Q.   Just reading your P981, paragraph 9, maybe you can help us on

 7     that.

 8        A.   Okay.  That's correct.  The bus station and the parliament

 9     building.

10        Q.   And F would be the radio station.  Is that right?

11        A.   Yeah, Radio Knin.

12        Q.   Now, you noted in your statement, your 1996 statement, at page 4,

13     that when you got to this location, the shelling was quite intense.

14        A.   Correct.

15             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry.  I'm not sure if this D marking is

16     correct.

17             Paragraph 8 indicates that the bus station was marked as D, but

18     the following paragraph indicates that the parliament building next door

19     to the HQ and the location of both is marked as A.

20             MR. KEHOE:  I thought that what's he said.

21             MR. RUSSO:  I think what came out of the transcript, is that the

22     parliament as at D.

23             MR. KEHOE:  That's what is stated.  I think the witness said "A."

24     With all due respect, Mr. Dawes, I do believe that Mr. Dawes said that

25     the bus station was D and that the headquarter area was A.

Page 10465

 1             THE WITNESS:  Correct.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It seems that's what you put to him and that's

 3     what he confirmed, although not very clear, in relation to A.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:

 6        Q.   When you were there, Mr. Dawes, did it strike you or did you

 7     concluded that the HV was trying to knock out the command and control and

 8     the communication compatibilities of the ARSK?

 9        A.   I don't believe I thought of it that way.  I just thought that --

10     it's the first time I have ever been shelled before, so I just realized

11     that the shelling was extremely heavy, and they were targeting both sides

12     of the road:  The railway yard and the -- the bus station side and the

13     Radio Knin side of the roads.

14        Q.   Now, it was during this period of time where you noted for us

15     that you saw some ARSK soldiers in the area, pointed B?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   You noted that, in your statement in 2008, paragraph 10, that

18     these young soldiers were not part of any unit or operation in the area,

19     and that there was six of them.

20             Where did these soldiers come from?

21        A.   They were on the street.

22        Q.   Where were they before they were on the street?

23        A.   I have no idea.  When we -- as I recollected, as we turned the

24     corner up the hill, they were on the road by the time we got there.

25        Q.   Do you know if they were part of any unit?

Page 10466

 1        A.   I do not know.

 2        Q.   So, if you don't know that, you wouldn't know if they were

 3     assigned to some type of military operation that morning, do you?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   Did you discuss with these soldiers anything about where the rest

 6     of their unit - assuming they had one - the rest of their unit was?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did it strike you at that time, sir, that the shelling that was

 9     going on was causing the ARSK military, at least these soldiers, to

10     panic?

11        A.   I would say that their general state of behaviour was very close

12     to panic.

13        Q.   Did it, likewise, strike you that as a result of this panic,

14     these soldiers warranted to get out of the area?

15        A.   Absolutely.

16        Q.   Now, you noted during the course of your direct testimony and

17     your statement, when you were in the location around F and B, you

18     observed civilian casualties?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Where?

21        A.   Between F and B, in that general area, so on the side -- they

22     were on sides of roads, like the sidewalks.

23        Q.   And would that be in the area that was near to the parliament,

24     the Radio Knin, and the ARSK headquarters?

25        A.   As well as residential buildings, yes.

Page 10467

 1        Q.   Now, you've noted for us previously that it was very difficult to

 2     tell whether or not somebody was a civilian or whether or not that person

 3     was military?

 4             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I am going to object that.  I don't

 5     think the witness ever said it was difficult to make that determination.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, the witness explained

 7     what he had to take into account when assessing whether someone would

 8     have been a military or a civilian person, and we did not hear the person

 9     that he was ever in a position to verify finally whether the first

10     impression the was correct one, yes or no.

11             Please proceed.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Mr. Dawes, you would agree with me that the males that you saw

14     dead on the street, you don't know if they were military or civilian, do

15     you?

16        A.   Categorically, I do not know.

17        Q.   Now, you talked a little bit about riding through this area in

18     your 1996 statement and talked about going into the Tvik factory.  Now,

19     the Tvik was a screw factory, wasn't it?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Were they supplying anything that they made in the Tvik factory

22     to the ARSK military; do you know?

23        A.   I never saw anything been manufactured there.

24        Q.   Answer my question, sir.

25        A.   What is the question?

Page 10468

 1        Q.   My question is:  Do you know if they were supplying the ARSK

 2     military with anything that they made there?

 3        A.   I don't know if they're supplying anything to anybody.

 4        Q.   You also noted during, the course of your direct examination,

 5     that the railroad was being shelled but was not in use.  Is that right?

 6        A.   Correct.

 7        Q.   Let me show you P804, an ECMM report of 4 August 1995.

 8             Paragraph 4:  "On economical and industrial and infrastructural,

 9     obviously a lot of damage during the day.  Trains are seen being moved in

10     Knin.  Comment:  Presumably used for military purpose, but these could be

11     used for evacuation of civilians.  End comment."

12             I take it that you didn't observe that movement of trains that

13     ECMM saw?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Did you discuss it with anybody that trains had been moving in

16     the yards on the 4th.

17        A.   Did I?

18        Q.   Yes.

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Now, let us go back to the situation with regard to the school.

21     And by the way, sir, the school that you testified from the photograph --

22     I don't know the number of the photograph off the top of my head.

23                           [Defence counsel confer]

24             MR. RUSSO:  P982.

25             MR. KEHOE:  Thank you.  P982.

Page 10469

 1        Q.   You heard from somebody else that had been destroyed, I think you

 2     -- totally destroyed?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   You do know that in the 4th of August, 1995, no schools were in

 5     session.

 6        A.   I did not know that.

 7        Q.   Did you know, or do you know now, or did you know then what arms

 8     of the RSK government were housed at that facility?

 9        A.   No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

11             MR. RUSSO:  My apology, Your Honour.  I'll pass.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   Let me show you an item.

14             MR. KEHOE:  This would be - excuse me - D718, page 3.

15        Q.   Mr. Dawes, on the item marked G, were you aware that there was a

16     school there and that Serb soldiers were garrisoned in that location on

17     the 4th of August, 1995?

18        A.   No, I would not know that.

19             MR. KEHOE:  Let me turn our attention to P78.  This is a map

20     drawn by Mr. Dreyer.

21             If I could have the left-hand side which is around the letter C,

22     and if I could just blow that up.  On the left-hand side, just to see it.

23     Okay.  I know it's a little difficult to see it.  That's it.

24        Q.   Do you see that location, C, Mr. Dawes?

25        A.   I do -- sorry.  Yes, I do.

Page 10470

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Dreyer informed this Court that that was a school that

 2     had a mortar emplacement or the morning of the 4th, and that would be Mr.

 3     Dreyer's testimony at ... [Overlapping speakers] ... 1721.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I don't know that putting the statements

 6     of Mr. Dreyer to the witness -- he hasn't asked the witness whether or

 7     not he saw anything at that particular school --

 8             MR. KEHOE:  I'll ask it again, Judge.

 9        Q.   Did you see --

10             MR. RUSSO:  I'm sorry.  I thought he was talking about a

11     different school.  If he was referring to this one, I'm sorry.

12             MR. KEHOE:

13        Q.   With regards to C?

14        A.   With regard to C.

15        Q.   Do you know there is a school where C is?

16        A.   Just so we're speaking clearly --

17        Q.   If you want to blow it up even more, we can.  Do you want to blow

18     it even up more, sir?

19        A.   I just want to make sure we're talking about same school.

20             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. Usher, [sic], that area around C, if we could

21     blow that up a little more.

22        A.   I did not know that there was a mortar location at that school,

23     if that's what your question is.

24        Q.   So, I take it, when you were driving around with Mr. Dreyer and

25     looking around, you never saw any ARSK mortar locations?

Page 10471

 1        A.   No.  Mr. Dreyer assumed the 50-cal round, so he was mostly out of

 2     the building - out of the building - out of the APC.  I was firmly inside

 3     the APC.  I had the main hatch open on the inside, so we could see some

 4     objects.  He would have had a much better vantage point than I would,

 5     while driving.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we could go to the photograph of the school,

 7     which is 982.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Dreyer [sic], this particular school, this is a large

 9     building relative to the rest of the buildings in Knin, isn't it?

10        A.   You referring to me as "Mr. Dreyer" again.

11        Q.   I am sorry.  I apologise.

12        A.   [Overlapping speakers] ... complex.

13             Say again.

14        Q.   This building that you've identified as the -- that was totally

15     destroyed, this is a relatively large building in Knin vis-a-vis the rest

16     of the buildings in the town, is it not?

17        A.   Correct.  It is a substantial structure.

18        Q.   Now, you continued to drive around Knin after the 6th of

19     August until the time you actually departed, didn't you?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Let me show you two items.

22             MR. KEHOE:  One is D276, If we could just play this briefly.

23             No sound is required, Mr. President.

24                           [Videotape played]

25             MR. KEHOE:  Stop right there.  Just go back up a little bit.

Page 10472

 1     Stop there.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Dreyer, [sic], what you are talking about is the

 3     structure on the left-hand side of this photograph about midway through.

 4     Is that right?

 5        A.   Mr. Dawes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Dawes, excuse me.  Mr. Dawes.

 7        A.   I'm flattered.  He's much more handsome than me.

 8        Q.   He is, at that.

 9             Mr. Dawes, that is the building you're talk about?

10        A.   I can't really tell, but it is definitely in the general area,

11     for sure.

12        Q.   Well, that general building appears to have no destruction on the

13     roof, does it?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   Mr. Dawes, let us move to another document -- item.

16             MR. KEHOE:  1D57-0094.  This is a clip from Zastava Films

17     received from the Prosecution.

18             There again is no sound, Mr. President.

19        Q.   This is an item from Zastava Films which is part of the RSK taken

20     on the 4th of August, 1995, Mr. Dawes.

21             MR. KEHOE:  If we could play this.

22                           [Videotape played]

23             MR. KEHOE:

24        Q.   Now, again, Mr. Dawes, this is the building that you are talking

25     about, that someone told you was totally destroyed.  Is that right?

Page 10473

 1        A.   If I -- no disrespect, if you take you at its word, then that's

 2     correct.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer into evidence

 4     1D57-0097 -- 94, excuse me, 0094.

 5             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, we have no objection to the admission.

 6     I want to be clear, the video that was -- that he indicated was the video

 7     sent over by the Prosecution, that video had sound.  I don't know if this

 8     is --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think it was played just for the purpose of

10     identifying the building for which you do not need the sound.  That's

11     what I understood, and I think that was already in evidence, isn't it?

12             MR. KEHOE:  Just -- we received the bulk of it, and I think both

13     sides have cut parts out.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And --

15             MR. RUSSO:  In any case, no objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D861.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D861 is admitted into evidence.

19             Now, Mr. Kehoe, one of the things I asked myself is that this

20     witness testified that someone told him that the school was destroyed,

21     and that he had never seen it.  What is the purpose?  I mean, if you show

22     this is to us and say this the building, the witness can't confirm that.

23     What is there what we learned from this witness over the last four to

24     five minutes.

25             MR. KEHOE:  I will -- I will -- first of all, it's on the 4th,

Page 10474

 1     but it takes me to the next point -- to go to the next point given --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay, we'll see.

 3             Yes, please proceed.

 4             MR. KEHOE:

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Dawes, you stated that you didn't know who told you that

 6     the building was totally destroyed.  Is that right?

 7        A.   That is correct.

 8        Q.   Now, as you sit here, whoever told you that, you know that person

 9     was exaggerating the extent of destruction on this building, weren't

10     they?

11        A.   If that was the building, yes.

12        Q.   During the course of your time there, sir, were many of the

13     reports that you received about damage in Knin exaggerated by UN

14     personnel?

15             MR. RUSSO:  Objection, Your Honour.  We've heard no testimony

16     regarding reports received by this witness concerning anything, much less

17     damage.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, perhaps we should first establish that; but

19     even then, I do understand that the witness had two days after beginning

20     of Operation Storm, that the school was destroyed.  You show us now, I

21     think, pictures from the 4th and the 5th of August, which leaves --

22             MR. KEHOE:  The 4th.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I thought one of them was the 5th.

24             MR. KEHOE:  The 5th is the first one in evidence ... [Overlapping

25     speakers]

Page 10475

 1             MR. WAESPI:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  okay.

 2             The witness tell us, "I do not know."  So whether someone

 3     exaggerates or not, he couldn't know either.  What you are doing is you

 4     are asking this witness to draw a lot of conclusions on the basis of

 5     material where he has no personal observation, just to lead him to the

 6     place that everyone exaggerated, which could not be a conclusion - it may

 7     well be - that everyone exaggerated, but you cannot establish that on the

 8     basis of this material.  If it's from a witness about if this is the

 9     school, if this is the total destruction, then that person must have

10     exaggerated, I don't need a witness to understand that.

11             And, certainly, Mr. Dawes is very much assisting and being very

12     precise and said If someone said it was totally destroyed and if this is

13     the building which appears to not be totally destroyed, then he must have

14     exaggerated, not even knowing whether this was the state of the building

15     on the 4th, the 5th, the 6th.  Apparently, he learned about it on the 6th

16     and not on the 4th or the 5th.

17             So, therefore, I do not understand your techniques, apparent --

18             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... I need to --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...trial techniques, which --

20             MR. KEHOE:  I can explain my technique, Judge --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Not in the presence of the witness.  I am just point

22     to you that --

23             MR. KEHOE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... Judge, I understand the

24     technique and the greater plan outside the presence of the witness at any

25     time because there is a string that, not only is with this witness but

Page 10476

 1     with other witnesses, when we do put these facts together will become

 2     abundantly clear to Your Honour.

 3             So cross-examination is not just with this particular fact and

 4     circumstance concerning certainly this exaggeration fact which we've

 5     heard a lot of.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  My certain is that we're putting all these facts

 7     together; whereas, the whole exaggeration issue, at least as far as this

 8     school is concerned, as I pointed to you now, is not a fact, and that is

 9     exactly at least not an established fact.

10             Please proceed.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Now, just talking about the hospital trip, and moving away from

13     this, it is accurate to say that when you went to the hospital, you never

14     got out of the APC.  Is that right?

15        A.   That is possible.

16        Q.   Well --

17        A.   I don't remember either way.  We were dropping the doctor off, if

18     that's the trip you're talking where we took the doctor to the hospital.

19        Q.   On page --

20        A.   Page 4?

21        Q.   -- or P981, you told the Prosecution on the 2nd ever April, 2008,

22     at paragraph 15:  "I did not ..." -- second line:  "I did not go into the

23     hospital or get out of the APC."

24        A.   All right.  I was just looking at my testimony from 1996.  Sorry,

25     my apologies.

Page 10477

 1        Q.   So that -- is that accurate?

 2        A.   Then that is accurate, yes.

 3        Q.   So anything that you learned about what happened to the hospital,

 4     you got from third parties and you didn't observe yourself.  Right?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Now, let's briefly talk about the barracks.  You noted during the

 7     statement, on page 4 of your 1996 statement, that you passed -- "when we

 8     passed close to the northern barracks, I saw no impacts there."

 9             Is it your testimony that there were no impacts at the northern

10     barracks or you just didn't see them?

11        A.   I am saying that while I drove by the northern barracks, I did

12     not see any impacts.

13        Q.   Well, if you were seated in the bottom of the APC and driving

14     passed the northern barracks, how did you see that there were no impacts?

15        A.   Well, you're standing on a bench in the APC and you were looking

16     out through the main hatch, so you have horizontal vision.

17        Q.   Now, let me be clear:  Number one, you didn't go into the

18     northern barracks; right?

19        A.   Correct.

20        Q.   Number two, we are talking about impacts or information that you

21     get driving passed on the road, right?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   I'm not here to educate you, Mr. Dawes, but if the RSK reported

24     impacts at the northern barracks on the morning of the 4th of August, you

25     have no reason to question that, do you?

Page 10478

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

 2             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I'm going to object to that question.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I was first waiting for the French translation.

 4             The witness testified in what position he was and that he did not

 5     see any impacts, then whether he had reason -- of course, unless there's

 6     any specific, I do expect what that what he didn't see, that he has no

 7     reason to believe that something may have been there or not have been

 8     there if he was not in a position to see it.  That's how I and I think

 9     the Bench will understand his testimony.

10             Now, if you want to establish that there were impacts, fine; but,

11     then, preferably with a witness who inspected the northern barracks or

12     who gives a different position as from where he observed matters.

13             MR. KEHOE:  If I may, Judge, that calls into question the

14     methodology of the Prosecutor to lead this type of evidence, because

15     Prosecution knows full well that there are documents in evidence from the

16     RSK reflecting artillery fire in the northern barracks.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But this witness testifies about what he knows, and

18     in relation to this, he said "I didn't see this," which doesn't say that

19     it wasn't there.  It's just that this witness is -- that's what he tells

20     us; and if there's any --

21             MR. KEHOE:  Then why lead that evidence, Judge?  Why lead that

22     evidence, unless the Prosecution wants the Chamber to believe that the

23     northern barracks weren't shelled, when, in fact, they were?  That's the

24     point.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We are not going to discuss through the

Page 10479

 1     testimony this witness what the Prosecution does and $does not.  We have

 2     in front of us now this witness who gave his statement, and which appears

 3     the line that he did not see any impact.  If you want to criticize the

 4     leading of this evidence, of course, you can do it, but why bother this

 5     witness with --

 6             MR. KEHOE:  Frankly, Your Honour, I would think that Your Honour

 7     would question how the OTP is presenting this, given the fact that the

 8     are leading evidence that I have to respond to.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I take that the Prosecution will tell us that we

10     have to look at their evidence in its totality as well, in which this is

11     only a tiny little thing of someone who did not see something.  And where

12     it may have been there or not been there, I do not know; but at least

13     this witness didn't see it.  That's, of course, the weight to not

14     observing a matter is rather limited.

15             Let's not --

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  One moment, Mr. Russo.

18             And let's not spend so time in relation to this witness, because

19     this witness will not be able to respond, unless there are any specific

20     to believe that he can.

21             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, if I may, with all due respect, the

22     Prosecution led this specific item of evidence with Mr. Dawes about

23     impacts in the northern barracks, clearly trying to bring it to the

24     Chamber 's attention that there was no shelling.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  This is argumentative, rather than eliciting from a

Page 10480

 1     witness knowledge of what he observed, what he have seen.  And if you

 2     want to criticize the Prosecution for that, again let's not bother the

 3     witness with it.

 4             Please proceed.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, then, on the next step, may I be

 6     permitted to show him a document concerning the actual shelling of that,

 7     albeit he has not seen it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Why?  Unless you have any reason that, when looking

 9     at this, he would say, "Oh, well, of course, that is what I saw the day

10     after that or the day before that."  But this witness --

11             Let's not, as again I said, educate witnesses.  If you want to

12     put something to a witness in contradiction to what he said, then there

13     should be a reasonable expectation that this would further assist him in

14     his testimony.

15             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

16                           [Defence counsel confer]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Russo has been on his feet for a

18     while ... [Overlapping speakers]

19             MR. KEHOE:  Oh, I'm sorry.  I know he tires easy -- or "easily"

20     is probably the correct adverb.

21             MR. RUSSO:  Your Honour, I just want to -- I understand the

22     Court's position with respect to this particular witness, but I would

23     like to make an objection to the discussion of evidence led by the

24     Prosecution in the presence of a witness.

25             I believe this Court is more interested in what each particular

Page 10481

 1     witness has observed outside of the influence of other evidence that

 2     other witnesses provided at least in the first instances.  So I don't

 3     think it is appropriate to be discussing the what the Prosecution led,

 4     why they didn't lead it, in the presence of this witness, and I would

 5     just like to make that point, so it doesn't happen in front of another

 6     witness.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, these are items that are in evidence.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Kehoe.

 9             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sorry.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

11             I think it is clear what I earlier said about showing a picture

12     to the witness.  Whether the witness should see it or whether we should

13     see it is not the same.

14             Please proceed.

15             MR. KEHOE:

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Dawes, during the course of your driving around on

17     the 4th, you informed Mr. Stanton that there was definitely outgoing

18     artillery fire from Serb locations in Knin on the 4th.

19             Where were those locations where you either heard or observed

20     outgoing Serb artillery fire?

21        A.   I was told that by somebody.  I can't remember the individual's

22     name.

23        Q.   Would that have been an UN soldier who told you that there was

24     outgoing Serb artillery fire?

25        A.   No idea.

Page 10482

 1        Q.   Assuming that person told you that, did he say where it was from?

 2        A.   No, he did not.

 3        Q.   Now, staying with your trip on the -- your first trip, and if I

 4     could just talk a little bit about your trip where you observed -- or the

 5     opportunity to see the cluster bomblets.

 6             You noted for us, during the course of your testimony that the --

 7     or during the course of your -- this is page 5 in the 1996 statement,

 8     where the tree tops had been cut off.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And let me show you a film, which is again part of the Zastava

11     Films.

12             MR. KEHOE:  1D57-0095.

13             Yes.  I have just been informed there is again no sound on this,

14     if we can play this.

15                           [Videotape played]

16             MR. KEHOE:

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Dawes, does that appear to be the location that you were

18     talking about where the trees had been cut off?

19        A.   No idea.

20        Q.   You can observe, looking at that pavement, that there are no

21     bomblets on that pavement, or that you can observe, are there?

22        A.   No, sir.

23             MR. KEHOE:  Your Honour, at this time, we'll offer 1D57-0095 into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Russo.

Page 10483

 1             MR. RUSSO:  No objection, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number D861 -- sorry, D862, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  D862 is admitted into evidence.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Now, if we can go back to P62, just a blank sheet,

 6     and that would be P62.  It should be the --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Aerial view on Knin.

 8             MR. KEHOE:

 9        Q.   Looking at P62, if I can turn your attention to page 5 of P980,

10     at the top of the page:

11             "During the trip, we kept the tops down on the -- top open on the

12     APC to be able to look for UN personnel.  When we passed, about 150

13     metres south of the main crossing in the centre of Knin going in the

14     direction towards the bus station, we suddenly discovered that most of

15     the tree tops along the alley-way were cut; however, not too much damages

16     was seen ..."

17             I'm reading it literally: "... however, not too much damages was

18     seen at the bottom of those trees.  We then saw the bomblets, some small

19     bombs from a cluster bomb.  Both Andries and I looked at these and at

20     each other, and I remember that we were commenting that we should stay

21     away from the bomblets."

22             In the statement that you made in 1996, where on this map did you

23     place these bomblets 150 metres south from the main crossing in the

24     centre going in the direction of the bus station?  Where did you put

25     them?

Page 10484

 1        A.   Is the blue pen ready again?

 2             In that general area.

 3        Q.   Let me flip back to -- your 1996 statement, that's where you put

 4     them?

 5        A.   Well, that's where I recollect --

 6        Q.   No, no, no, sir --

 7        A.   -- them now.

 8        Q.   Stay with me here.

 9        A.   I'm trying.

10        Q.   You noted for us this morning that your memory back in 1996 about

11     these events was much better than in 2008.  And when you gave this

12     statement in 1996, where, based on this statement at the top of page 5,

13     did you put the location of those bomblets that you allegedly saw?

14             If I can give you a frame of reference --

15        A.   Please.

16        Q.   Let us go back to P984, and you can pinpoint the bus station.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, I'm looking at the clock, and it seems

18     that you are engaging in a most complex exercise.  Perhaps we should not

19     do it at this moment.  It's a quarter to 2.00.

20             MR. KEHOE:  That's fine, Judge.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Dawes, we'll soon adjourn for the day, and we'd

22     like to see you back tomorrow mourning in this same courtroom.

23             Madam Usher, could you already escort Mr. Dawes out of the

24     courtroom --

25             Oh, Mr. Dawes, one second, please.  I'd like to instruct you that

Page 10485

 1     you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether the

 2     portion already given or the portion still to be given tomorrow, so you

 3     should refrain from any conversation about your testimony.

 4             Yes.  Could you then please follow Madam Usher.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe, usual question.

 7             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will finish, Your Honour, at the

 8     end of the second session tomorrow.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

10             MR. KAY:  I have no questions of this witness.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, as of now, I have no questions.

13     That may change, but, likely, I will have no questions.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber will consider -- we had some discussions

15     about -- well, not discussions perhaps.  I made some comments in relation

16     to the way in which you conducted the cross-examination, what would

17     assist us and what would not assist us.  The Chamber will briefly discuss

18     this and see whether, then, it will allow you the two full sessions

19     tomorrow you are asking for.

20             We will adjourn, and we will resume tomorrow, the 14th of

21     October, at 9.00 in Courtroom I.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

24                           October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.