Page 10486
1 Tuesday, 14 October 2008
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in the courtroom.
10 This is case number IT-06-90-T, The Prosecutor versus Ante
11 Gotovina, et al.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Good morning, Mr. Dawes. I would like to remind you that the
14 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony still
15 binds you.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, the Chamber has not finally made up its
18 mind as far as one or two sessions.
19 We'll further consider the matter after we have had an
20 opportunity to follow your cross-examination during the first session.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
23 Mr. Registrar, if we could go back to P62 on the screen.
24 THE WITNESS: I was wondering if I could get my hard copy back.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that would be a good thing.
Page 10487
1 WITNESS: MURRAY DOUGLAS DAWES [Resumed]
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe: [Continued]
3 Q. New, Mr. Dreyer [sic], good morning -- excuse me, Mr. Dawes.
4 A. Good to start off on the right foot.
5 Q. Yes, that's right.
6 Mr. Dawes, let's go back to the trip you took with Mr. Dreyer on
7 the morning of the 4th. Looking at your statement, P980, at page 5 at
8 the top, and using the marker, sir, could you mark on the map that is
9 before you, Mr. Dawes, the location where in 1996 you put these bomblets.
10 Well, let's read it together at the top of the page. Do see
11 where it is?
12 It stays: "During the trip, we kept the tops open on the APC
13 be able to look for UN personnel. When we passed 150 metres south from
14 the main crossing in the centre of Knin, going in the direction towards
15 the bus station, we discovered that most of the tree tops along the alley
16 were cut; however not too much damage was seen at the bottom of those
17 trees. We then saw the bomblets, small bombs from a cluster bomb," and
18 then you mention that you had and Mr. Dreyer looked at it.
19 Now, let us first mark -- apologies.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The problem that arises, Mr. Kehoe, is that we see
21 that the interpreters then start reading and translating, and then
22 sometimes even portions are missing. I would like to urge you to slow
23 down when reading.
24 If you'd put your question to the witness, we could continue.
25 MR. KEHOE: Yes, apologies to the Court apologies to the
Page 10488
1 interpreters.
2 Q. Now, first, Mr. Dawes, I would like you to mark with the letter
3 [sic] "1" the main crossing in the centre of Knin?
4 A. Can you blow that map up a little bit better, or just the general
5 area is fine.
6 Q. No, we can blow it that up better. That will be fine.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I think that Madam Usher is seeking your
8 guidance.
9 MR. KEHOE:
10 Q. Mr. Dawes, is that sufficient or would you like it blown up yet
11 further, sir?
12 A. I believe that is sufficient.
13 Q. Yes. With the assistance of the usher, if we could just have
14 that marked.
15 A. In that general area.
16 Q. So we have that marked with the number 1.
17 A. Sorry. My 1 is a little bit crooked, but that's it.
18 Q. That's quite all right, sir.
19 Now, in 1996, you noted that the bomblets were 150 metres south
20 of the main crossing in the centre of Knin going in the direction towards
21 the bus station.
22 Where was that? Could you circle that area and put a "2" in it?
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. And that would be a tree-lined area along the main road. Is that
25 right?
Page 10489
1 A. If my memory serves me well, yes.
2 Q. And if we can turn your attention to page 6 of your statement,
3 the -- not the lead-over paragraph but the carry-over paragraph. But the
4 first full paragraph says: "After we returned to the camp without
5 further incident, I saw the bomblets were still in the main street."
6 In 1996, you're talking about the same location where you named
7 as number 2? Isn't that right?
8 A. I believe so.
9 MR. KEHOE: Let us return to D862.
10 Your Honour, at this time, I will -- actually, if I can -- do I
11 need to -- just procedurally, Judge, I want to go back to this map. Can
12 I move to another location and then come back to this, or do I need to
13 solidify this.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think, if we move to another exhibit, that this
15 should one be stored in one way or another.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you want it play or show anything in Sanction, it
18 can be done simultaneously. If you want to move to another picture -- if
19 this is played there Sanction, there is no problem; otherwise, we have to
20 store it first, and then we can restore it at a later stage and even add
21 markings.
22 MR. KEHOE: With the Court's permission, if can store those
23 initial markings, then I would like to come back to it.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Russo, I take it there is no objection
25 against that. We have it MFI
Page 10490
1 by the witness in relation to the bomblets.
2 Thank you, Mr. Registrar, that would be ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D863,
4 marked for identification.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Now, if we can just go to D862, Mr. Dawes, that is a film made on
9 the 4th of August by Zastava Films, a Serb film service. Did you know
10 that Zastava Films was out on the street on the 4th of August filming
11 various aspects of the shelling of Knin?
12 A. I did not.
13 Q. We viewed this yesterday, if we could just look at this quickly,
14 and we can talk while it playing.
15 MR. KEHOE: If we can display this.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. Mr. Dawes, this is the location that you identified as number 2
19 in your chart that we just looked at it, isn't it?
20 A. I would have no idea.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
22 THE WITNESS: There are many tree-lined streets in Knin.
23 MR. KEHOE:
24 Q. Examine this street, Mr. Dawes. How many streets in Knin
25 remotely resemble this street that you spent -- in a city that you spent
Page 10491
1 from May of 1994 till October of 1995?
2 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I'm going to object to that question.
3 How many street remotely resemble this? I don't think that is a clear
4 enough.
5 MR. KEHOE: It is clear as it possibly could be. I am putting on
6 the table any street in the town of Knin
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I think Mr. Russo was addressing me.
8 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry. I apologise.
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you would do the same, that would certainly help.
10 Yes, the question may be answered.
11 If you can answer the question, the question is rather broad, but
12 if you think that you can give us a number of streets, which remotely
13 resemble what we see here, please tell us. If you can't, please tell us
14 as well.
15 THE WITNESS: Sir, I would have no way to ascertain if that was
16 the street in question.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Well, sir, in 2008, you changed the locations, didn't you, where
20 you saw -- allegedly saw bomblets.
21 A. I don't remember that.
22 MR. KEHOE: Let us go back to -- before we go to that, let us go
23 back to P984.
24 Before we go back to this, can we go back to P984. I don't know
25 if this is the digitally-enhanced version or not. I turn to my learned
Page 10492
1 friend ... [Overlapping speakers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: It is not. It's the old one. Let's work with it.
3 MR. KEHOE: I think we have it via Sanction, Judge. Can we --
4 JUDGE ORIE: We can work with it for the time being if the
5 witness can see it.
6 MR. KEHOE:
7 Q. Can you see the location as "I"?
8 A. Yes, I can.
9 Q. And what is location is that? How did you identify "I"?
10 A. I believe that is where I saw the overturned police vehicle.
11 MR. KEHOE: Let us go back to the item that we've stored.
12 I believe I have notification that the stored item is D863 for
13 MFI
14 Q. Going back to this area, you just noted for us that the area "I"
15 is where you saw the overturned vehicle. You told us -- you said, in
16 1996, the bomblets were in area that you listed as "2." Where were these
17 bomblets, allegedly, that you saw?
18 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, if I could.
19 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me.
20 MR. RUSSO: I'm addressing the Court, please. I'm addressing the
21 Court.
22 Your Honour, if I could make an objection.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Russo may raise an objection if he
24 wishes to do so.
25 Mr. Russo, you be strict in what could be subject of an
Page 10493
1 objection.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 I ask that the witness in being referred to what he marked as "I"
5 on P --
6 MR. KEHOE: This is exactly --
7 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour --
8 MR. KEHOE: I object to the speaking objection --
9 MR. RUSSO: I am wait making an objection. Please wait.
10 MR. KEHOE: This is --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we restore, Mr. Kehoe.
12 MR. KEHOE: Judge, with all due respect --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, with all due respect, you should calm
14 down.
15 MR. KEHOE: With all due respect, I understand what counsel is
16 doing.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I first asked you to calm down, and not just to
18 continue as you did. Is that clear?
19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll ask you -- Mr. Dawes, I,
21 unfortunately, have to ask to you leave the courtroom for a second --
22 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- so that the gentlemen can address me without your
24 presence.
25 [The witness withdrew]
Page 10494
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
2 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 My objection was to -- with respect to the witness being shown
4 P984, asking him to describe what the marking under letter "I"
5 represents. I was going to object to the fact that he was not directed
6 to the portion of his statement, the supplemental statement, the 2008
7 statement, which indicates what "I" represents. He clearly remembers a
8 portion of it and not the other portion of it.
9 I was simply looking for the witness, as I think is appropriate,
10 to be directed to what he said regarding that, and not to do what I think
11 Mr. Kehoe is doing in attempting to -- he wants to indicate what is
12 indicated in paragraph 16 of P981, I believe it is. If not correct,
13 that's fine, but I think it is unfair to the witness to ask him what the
14 "I" represents and not show him what he said "I" represents.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
16 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, the Defence is entitled to challenge the
17 credibility and the reliability of what this witness has to say. This
18 witness 13 or 12 years after the fact, in 199 -- excuse me, in 2008
19 miraculously changes a location for these alleged bomblets, which, by the
20 way, nobody else talks about.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then -- why not say to the witness, "In
22 your statement, you said that the bomblets were there. Today, you tell
23 us the bomblets are here. What causes this?"
24 MR. KEHOE: My question -- my goal here is, as we sit here -- and
25 mind you, Judge, this is several months after he gave this statement to
Page 10495
1 the Office of the Prosecutor where he said where this was, if I may, P981
2 is April of 2008.
3 JUDGE ORIE: But no one is denying you an opportunity to just put
4 to the witness that there's an inconsistency or a contradiction. Why not
5 do that? Why do in a way in which every starts feeling uncomfortable,
6 emotional? I mean, the matter seems to be entirely --
7 MR. KEHOE: I can tell you exactly why, Judge, because when you
8 lie, your memory is faulty as to what you said.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's -- let's put it to the witness that
10 there is a contradiction. When you lie, we have not -- a lie means
11 intentionally telling not the truth. A lie and a mistake are not exactly
12 the same.
13 You are here, and it's your duty to point at inconsistencies.
14 And if you later want to address the Court and say, "Well, Mr. Dawes is
15 lying," fine. No problem. But let's go to the issue that is that there
16 is not -- that there is an inconsistency, there is a contradiction in
17 statements; and then if you want to put focussed question to him, "Did
18 you intentionally ..."
19 Ask him for an explanation. We'll hear his explanation. It
20 might turn out that it was a lie; it might turn out that it was an error;
21 whatever it is.
22 But let's keep things simple and quiet.
23 MR. KEHOE: Well, may I just comment just briefly?
24 Issues of contradict, Your Honour, are never simple, and simply
25 what happens often in cross-examination on credibility, it is --
Page 10496
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe --
2 MR. KEHOE: If I may --
3 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mr. Kehoe, I think I gave you my guidance. The
4 Court, and we have discussed this yesterday, wants to avoid that this
5 courtroom becomes a debating club. You have my guidance, and you can put
6 it in the way I suggested to you to the witness. You also know what
7 happens if, finally, the examination-in-chief or the cross-examination
8 takes a course, which the Chamber considers inappropriate; then the
9 supervisory role of this Court will finally result in the Court putting
10 the questions which it feels that the parties apparently want to put to
11 the witness.
12 The witness can be brought in again.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour.
14 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, if I could -- my apologies.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
16 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, in line with what Your Honour and
17 Mr. Kehoe is saying, I would just like to direct the Court's attention to
18 yesterday's transcript, page 10.483, beginning at line 22. The aerial
19 photo of Knin, P62, was put up for the witness. Mr. Kehoe asked him to
20 indicate where, in 1996, he saw the bomblets. He took the blue pen, as
21 can you see in there. He put a marking where "I" was on the subsequent
22 statement. You'll see from reading the transcript that the witness says:
23 "Well, that's where I recollect ..." Then is cut off, saying: "No, no,
24 no, sir," and then moved back to focussing on something else.
25 So when the witness was asked again yesterday by Mr. Kehoe where
Page 10497
1 he recollects these bombs being, he was marking the same location "I,"
2 and then he was cut off and then taken back to his statement and asked
3 again.
4 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, my next question to him was going to be,
5 before the objection arose, as to where he allegedly saw these bomblets.
6 That was the next question, and have him mark it on the chart.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Russo is referring to yesterday's
8 transcript --
9 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- and is drawing our attention to the fact that
11 where the witness was asked yesterday about this, that he was
12 interrupted. That's what Mr. Russo did, and that is apart from what was
13 the next question you have on your mind for today.
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes. And on that score -- and I'm glad that counsel
15 brought that up, because it makes what the witness just said minutes ago
16 even more alarming, because "I," he says, is the overturned vehicle. And
17 "I" is where he saw the bomblets, and here he says it is where the
18 overturned vehicle was.
19 It is clear at this point that the witness has no idea what he
20 said even most recently, but we will give him that opportunity as soon as
21 he comes back in.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you'd do it quietly and calmly, so as not to
23 disturb the atmosphere in this courtroom, you're entitled to do so.
24 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I know this has arisen
Page 10498
1 oftentimes in cross-examination, and I just wanted to add to the record
2 and make it perfectly clear that if the witness has a problem or is
3 confused or doesn't understand, the witness can ask for either his
4 ability to clarify or he doesn't understanding something. What bothers
5 me, as a Defence attorney in cross-examination, is the fact that the
6 Prosecution is, in this particular instance, rises and is basically
7 instructing the witness what to do through his objection.
8 That is the problem here, Your Honour, not necessarily that the
9 witness is -- that anybody it trying to trap the witness or to fool the
10 witness or to pull something over the witness' eyes. If the witness
11 doesn't understand the question, if the witness is confused, the witness
12 is an adult, he is somebody who has been in that situation, it's not a
13 child we're dealing. The witness can ask for clarification or for a copy
14 of his statement. The whole purpose of objecting is to see whether the
15 question is perhaps improperly made or there is some evidentiary reason
16 to make the objection, and --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic --
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: -- that's what is --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- I appreciate your observations. You may remember
20 that when I allowed Mr. Russo to make an objection, that I added to that
21 specifically that he should stay within the limits of what is appropriate
22 in making an objection, and once --
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I do understand, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And once this resulted in the, could I call it, the
25 mini-chaos, I asked the witness to leave the courtroom, exactly for the
Page 10499
1 reasons you have drawn my attention to.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I appreciate that Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So I hope you feel that it's in safe hands.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I do. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Russo, there is some merit in what
6 Mr. Kuzmanovic just said. I even add to that, that I observed similar
7 things happening during, not specifically with this witness, with the
8 examination-in-chief. Sometimes, I also got the impression that too
9 easily an objection was placed where there was no need yet.
10 We now have discussed that there are certain contradictions,
11 there are inconsistencies. There's no problem in exploring them, but
12 let's do it calmly, let's do it focussed.
13 And if, Mr. Kehoe, you would also keep in mind what happened
14 yesterday, as Mr. Russo has drawn our attention to.
15 Then, I will ask the usher, who had fled the courtroom, to bring
16 in the witness again.
17 And, Mr. Kehoe, yesterday I made a reference to Friday emotions
18 and Monday emotions, and I have to add Tuesday emotions.
19 MR. KEHOE: Judge, I'm look this 24/7.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dawes, the apology is that you had to leave the
23 courtroom because, to some extent, emotions -- there was a risk that
24 emotions would take over. That risk, I hope, has now been reduced.
25 Mr. Kehoe.
Page 10500
1 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Dawes, going back to the --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, apologies.
5 Q. Mr. Dawes, going back to the exhibit on the screen.
6 So where in this location, if you could mark it with "3," did you
7 now say that you observed these alleged bomblets?
8 A. I want to be clear, Your Honour, on this point, and I don't want
9 to frustrate the Defence. I cannot clearly remember the exact location
10 where I've seen these cluster bombs. I can remember two locations, and
11 I'm not sure which one it is, and that's about as candid as I can be.
12 I know in my statement from 1996 that I say it's at the location
13 I circled with the "2" on the map, and then I know I have said on other
14 occasions that it may have been around where that Serbian police car was
15 overturned down by the Tvik screw factory.
16 I cannot remember which location they were at.
17 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into
18 evidence the exhibit that is on the screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
20 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Exhibit D863, which was MFI'd, is now
24 admitted into evidence.
25 Please proceed.
Page 10501
1 MR. KEHOE:
2 Q. Mr. Dawes, I know you're not a military person, but do you know
3 whether or not the HV even had a weapon system at that time that was able
4 to fire any type of bomblets like this?
5 A. No, I do not.
6 Q. Do you know if the ARSK possessed that weapons system?
7 A. No, I do not.
8 Q. Are you familiar with the type of weapons system that the ARSK
9 fired on Zagreb
10 A. Not really. I just knew that they lobbed a couple of -- I
11 thought they were artillery rounds into Zagreb.
12 Q. Do you have any recollection, sir, that they were bomblets?
13 A. No --
14 Q. -- cluster bomblets?
15 A. No, I do not remember that.
16 Q. When you observed what you allegedly observed, did you talk to
17 Mr. Dreyer about this?
18 A. I can't remember 100 percent, but I believe I did.
19 Q. And going to the top of page 5, would that be the conversation
20 that you talk with Dreyer about, commenting that you stay away from the
21 bomblets?
22 A. I remember making the statement.
23 Q. Did you file any reports on seeing these bomblets, sir, when you
24 got back to headquarters?
25 A. I cannot remember.
Page 10502
1 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, last night, I accepted -- asked the
2 Prosecution for a stipulation that Mr. Dreyer did not talk about these
3 bomblets in either his statements the before the Court or in his
4 statement, and the Prosecution has accepted that stipulation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's on the record now, Mr. Russo.
6 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Your Honour.
7 MR. KEHOE:
8 Q. Mr. Dawes, let's me move to your second trip, okay? And I
9 believe that in your second trip, you noted that - and this is again on
10 page 5 - that you left the camp somewhere around 8.15 and 8.30. I'm
11 referring to, if you can just take a look, page 5.
12 Can you see that, sir?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. And you note in had a sequence that there was anti-personnel
15 mines put out prior to that time. Do you see that in that first
16 paragraph?
17 A. "While back in the UN camp, two RSK soldiers ..." Is that where
18 you are referring to?
19 Q. Just if you could read that to yourself.
20 A. Certainly. Okay.
21 Q. So before you left the camp on the second trip, these mines were
22 put out in front of the gate?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So if you left the camp between 8.15 and 8.30, it would have to
25 have been sometime prior to that?
Page 10503
1 A. I would believe so.
2 Q. How many times during the course of that day -- well, let me
3 rephrase that.
4 Was this the only indication - only time, I should say - that the
5 ARSK put mines out in front of the gate of UN Sector South?
6 A. That's the only one that I remember.
7 Q. Let me show you D5. This is an UNMO report from the 4th at 1600.
8 MR. KEHOE: And if we could go to the second page, at the urgent,
9 urgent info section.
10 Q. If you can read, 1: "From 1515 Bravo, Sector South headquarters
11 is blockaded by ARSK. Anti-tank mines laid on the main road to Knin, 100
12 metres from the HQ entrance gate."
13 Now that notes, Mr. Dawes, that this event took place at 1515
14 Bravo, or 3.15 in the afternoon. That is well after your timing on this
15 second trip, is it not?
16 A. Seems to be.
17 Q. Now, if we can go back to -- just staying on that, is it clear to
18 you, sir, as you sit here, that the timing that you've given this Trial
19 Chamber of when and where you did things is accurate?
20 A. To the best of my ability. Specifically about the mine thing, I
21 believe I was well inside the camp after 1530 on my third and last trip.
22 If ARSK soldiers put the mines back, I would have no knowledge of that
23 because I wasn't by the -- by the gate. It could be another occurrence
24 is what I'm say.
25 Q. And one would think, would you not, that such an occurrence, if
Page 10504
1 it happened more than once, would be in some Sector South reporting,
2 wouldn't it?
3 A. One would assume so.
4 MR. KEHOE: Let us bring up on the screen P -- excuse me, D856.
5 Q. Now, this is going to the route that you took the second time,
6 Mr. Dawes, just in frame of reference.
7 Now looking at 856, D856, you left the Sector South headquarters
8 and went to Potkonje. Is that right? That's over to the right as you
9 come out.
10 A. In that general direction, for sure.
11 Q. Yeah. And at this location, you note in your statement that you
12 had -- or met 12 to 15 armed RSK soldiers. Is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And they were holding UN personnel hostage.
15 A. Definitely.
16 Q. Now, what unit were these RSK soldiers a part of; do you know?
17 A. No idea.
18 Q. Well, this is, in fact, the second time in several hours that you
19 saw groups of RSK soldiers in the town. Would that be accurate?
20 A. That would be the second time I saw a group of with RSK soldiers,
21 one in Knin and the other outside the Knin.
22 Q. And this outside the Knin, approximately how far is Potkonje from
23 downtown Knin?
24 A. From downtown Knin or from the garrison?
25 Q. Just from the garrison?
Page 10505
1 A. Two clicks, two and a half clicks.
2 Q. And how far is the garrison from downtown Knin?
3 A. Same distance, I would say.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now for me, clicks is not an expression I'm familiar
5 with.
6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Kilometres.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Kilometres. Thank you.
8 MR. KEHOE:
9 Q. Mr. Dawes, I know what you meant, but my colleague didn't.
10 Now, the next indication in your reports of RSK soldiers is in
11 page 6 of your 1996 statement, where you talk about with RSK soldiers
12 with lightly wounded coming from the direction of Strmica.
13 Do you see that, sir?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 MR. KEHOE: Now, if we can go, and if we can put up P62 on the
16 screen.
17 Q. Again, sir, using the marker, when you say that you observed
18 these four RSK trucks coming from the direction of the Strmica road, can
19 you mark with an arrow the road that you're talking about that you
20 believed these four ARSK trucks were travelling?
21 A. Yeah. Yes, I can, to answer your question. You want the
22 direction the trucks were travelling in.
23 Q. Let me just be clear, I want a frame of reference where you say
24 from the direction of the Strmica road. So if you could give the Chamber
25 an arrow, in blue, where you saw them coming from and where you observed
Page 10506
1 this.
2 A. What you can't see on that map is, where you see the town Knin
3 labelled, there's an intersection just to the top of that map. You turn
4 right to go to Vrlika; you turn left to go to Strmica.
5 Q. Now, sir, where you put the arrow, is that the approximate path
6 that they were following?
7 A. Correct.
8 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we can offer this item
9 into evidence.
10 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D864.
13 JUDGE ORIE: D864 is admitted into evidence.
14 Could I seek one clarification.
15 You talked about what we couldn't see on the map; that is, that
16 just above what is on the top of this map. You said you turn right to go
17 to Vrlika. May I take it coming from Knin, because it --
18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Coming from Knin, you turn right for Split
19 left for Bosnia
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Now that was the third observation you made of ARSK soldiers
24 according to the statement that you make in the morning of the -- sorry.
25 That was the third observation you made of ARSK soldiers during
Page 10507
1 the morning hours of the 4th. Is that right?
2 A. I believe so, yes.
3 Q. Let us continue down on that same paragraph on the 6th, where you
4 talk about the ear-ring brigade.
5 Now, you note that you saw the ear-ring brigade which were some
6 of the best units in the area, and you observed them at the intersection
7 downtown. Is that right?
8 MR. RUSSO: Objection, Your Honour. Sorry. The question wasn't
9 finished, but I have an objection.
10 MR. KEHOE: Please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I heard the question to be: "Is that right?" So,
12 therefore, I thought the question was finished.
13 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry. I thought Mr. Kehoe was still talking,
14 but if the question is finished, I'd like to object. I believe it
15 indicates that he saw soldiers from the ear-ring brigade, not the entire
16 ear-ring brigade. I think that is a distinction that needs to be made.
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. With all due respect, Mr. Dawes, I did not mean to mislead you,
19 and the report does say "some." If I misled anybody by my question, I
20 apologise.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed, yes.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. So saw some ARSK soldiers from this ear-ring brigade?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you noted that this ear-ring brigade was one of the best
Page 10508
1 ARSK units in the area?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How did you know that?
4 A. From living in town, from stopping at enough check-points,
5 general folklore.
6 Q. And, again, in the morning hours of the 4th, that is the fourth
7 separate viewing of you of ARSK soldiers in and around Knin, right?
8 A. That is the fourth time.
9 MR. KEHOE: If I can just have one second, Judge.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. KEHOE:
12 Q. Now, your third trip, sir, which was D857.
13 MR. KEHOE: If we could just change to D857.
14 Q. Now, this is the trip, sir, where Mr. Engleby went to get you --
15 went with you. Did you go pick up Mr. Engleby's girlfriend on this trip?
16 A. Sergeant Engleby.
17 Q. Excuse me. Sergeant Engleby?
18 A. That's correct. We tried to pick her up.
19 Q. And that would have been Christina Roskovic?
20 A. I forget her maiden name, Christina Engleby.
21 Q. Now, this also is the trip where you, during the course of your
22 testimony on direct, mentioned that there was mortar rounds landing in
23 and around the ECMM headquarters.
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Do you know if the HV was in range at that time to be able to hit
Page 10509
1 the ECMM headquarters with mortar rounds?
2 A. Specifically with mortar rounds, no, I do not.
3 Q. Had you heard during the course of the 4th from any elements in
4 the United Nations that the ARSK had fired on individuals who were part
5 of the United Nations during the 4th of August?
6 A. No, I did not.
7 Q. It's accurate to say, is it not, that you have no idea who fired
8 those mortar rounds that almost hit you, do you?
9 A. No idea.
10 Q. Now, during the course of picking up this UN personnel,
11 approximately just in your taskings, how many UN personnel were picked
12 up?
13 A. Just inside my APCs?
14 Q. Just inside yours, approximately. You don't have to give us an
15 exact number.
16 A. Anywhere between 30 and 50 maybe.
17 Q. And do you know how many UN personnel total were picked up by the
18 APCs throughout the day?
19 A. I do not. Not all of them, I know. We left some of them
20 downtown on the night of the 4th.
21 Q. Well, it's accurate to say, Mr. Dawes, that no UN personnel were
22 injured as a result of the shelling on the 4th or the 5th, were they?
23 A. Physically injured?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. I would have no idea. Not to my recollection. Do you know UN
Page 10510
1 personnel as also locals, or do you know internationals.
2 Q. Well, certainly, let's start with the internationals?
3 A. Not to my knowledge. As to the locals, I would not know because
4 many of them did not come on to the camp.
5 Q. Suffices it to say, at this point, you know of nobody that was
6 injured?
7 A. Physically.
8 Q. You noted during the course of your -- and I'm talking now about
9 the shelling itself of Knin, and turning to paragraph 24 of P981, the
10 second sentence: "I would like to add that when I saw the smoke clear
11 from the town ..." --
12 A. What page are you on, sir.
13 Q. I'm on page -- paragraph 24 of your 2008 statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Page 5 out of six.
15 MR. KEHOE: Oh, excuse me. Page 5 out of six, paragraph 24.
16 Thank you, Your Honour.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. You noted that you are surprised that: "The damage did not
20 appear to be that severe compared to the shelling I had experienced while
21 in town."
22 As you sit here in 2008, Mr. Dawes, and you reflect back, you
23 have come to two conclusions, have you not; one, that you do not believe
24 that anything was wrong with the shelling, and, two, that the HV was not
25 targeting civilians. Isn't that right?
Page 10511
1 Isn't that what you told Mr. Stanton?
2 A. I can't remember specifically I said to Mike. I recognised that
3 there was a war was going on and that the Croatians were retaking their
4 land. I identified that, I believe. Secondly, I was amazed that when
5 the dust settled and the smoke cleared on them, the next day the town
6 looked significantly better than the last time I saw it during the
7 morning of the 4th.
8 Q. And based on that, sir, you have concluded that you didn't think
9 there was anything wrong with the shelling, and that the HV was not
10 targeting civilians. Isn't that what you concluded?
11 A. I do not remember saying that at all, sir.
12 Q. Well, as you sit here, is that your conclusion, as you sit here
13 today?
14 A. No, it is not.
15 Q. Let us talk a bit about the refugee issue coming into the camp,
16 and you noted that you were the person who was searching these refugees
17 in the camp. Isn't that right?
18 A. Not directly searching. I was overseeing some of the process of
19 that. I wasn't physically patting people down or emptying their purses
20 out or anything like that.
21 Q. I apologise, sir. Are you the person, sir, that was telling them
22 that they had to be searched?
23 A. I don't speak the local lingo, so I don't know if I was telling
24 them. I may have been asking an interpreter to tell them that. I can't
25 remember.
Page 10512
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. It was definitely a policy for us to have the refugees searched
3 before the entered into the camp for weapons.
4 Q. Now, it was during this time-frame, was it not, that Colonel
5 Leslie told you that the UN had either given or were going to give fuel
6 to the ARSK soldiers to help them flee Sector South. Is that right?
7 A. That is correct.
8 Q. Did you know if he conveyed this information that they were going
9 to give fuel to ARSK soldiers, if he conveyed that information to General
10 Forand?
11 A. I'm way down the food chain. I would not be privileged to that.
12 Q. Let me show you an incident, D513, and I ask you if you're aware
13 of it.
14 Let me ask you, without even going into that, were you aware of
15 an incident - and I'm talking about an incident, if I can date this for
16 you - on the 13th of July, were you aware of an incident where Colonel
17 Leslie agreed to give 500 litres of diesel and 100 litres of petrol to
18 the ARSK in return for an observation post, and that the SC, Sector
19 Commander, was not informed and will be kept in the dark, only a few
20 people will know about this deal.
21 Were you aware of that?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Now --
24 A. If I may add, if Colonel Leslie wanted to have an observation
25 post, there was a normal process for that --
Page 10513
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not further explain. You have no knowledge on
2 the matter Mr. Kehoe asked about and, therefore, I think he will put next
3 question to you.
4 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Turning to the actual bringing of the refugees in, and turning to
6 page 7 of your statement, 980, not the carry-over paragraph, but the
7 second full paragraph, last sentence. Do you see that? "My task ..."
8 A. Of my 1996 statement?
9 Q. Yes, sir.
10 A. On page 7?
11 Q. Page 7.
12 A. Second paragraph?
13 Q. The second full paragraph, not the carry-over paragraph, but the
14 second full paragraph, beginning with, "The shelling commenced," and then
15 the last sentence: "The General decided ..."
16 A. Yes, I do see that.
17 Q. And that notes that your task was to tell the people they were
18 about to be searched.
19 Now --
20 A. May I just say something about the General? I may have been
21 referred to Leslie at that time, because I believe he was a General at
22 that time. This was -- so I'm not sure whether it was Forand or Leslie.
23 Q. Understood. In any event, sir, as these people were coming in,
24 you told them, either directly or through an interpreter, that they had
25 to be searched?
Page 10514
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And let me just show you briefly D748, and I'll show you a couple
3 of documents.
4 MR. KEHOE: I said D748. I'm sorry.
5 Q. Let me just talk about it while we're bringing this up.
6 During the course of this, were you present at the gate when this
7 transpired, when these people were coming in?
8 A. Off and on. We would take shifts.
9 Q. Did you see that the search was taking place, that weapons were
10 being taken off these individuals?
11 A. I heard weapons that there were weapons taken off. I believe
12 there was a handgun and a grenade was taken off some people. I wasn't
13 there for that, though.
14 Q. Were you aware that soldiers were let in during that period of
15 time?
16 A. I definitely know that there was fighting-age males let in at
17 that time.
18 Q. And how many fighting-age males were let in at that time?
19 A. I would not know the number, but there were a lot of males inside
20 the camp.
21 Q. Now, just briefly talking about your statement and going to
22 page 4 in your 1996 statement, you refer very briefly when you talking
23 about the young ARSK soldiers -- I'm talking about the first full
24 paragraph, not the carry-over paragraph. About midway down, you say that
25 you ran into some RSK soldiers.
Page 10515
1 The next sentence: "Some of them seem to have left the front
2 lines to get their families out of the region as soon as possible.
3 Later, some of them even tried to get into the camp."
4 Do you see that sentence?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. Now, is that referring to the soldiers that you saw on the street
7 that attempted to get into the camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were they let in to the camp?
10 A. I don't know. They could well have been. I was not there the
11 whole time.
12 Q. Were you aware that people were taken from the hospital and
13 brought into the camp?
14 A. I am aware of that now, but only from talking to other people
15 after the invasion. I wasn't aware during the invasion.
16 Q. And who did you talk to about that?
17 A. I can't remember. It was after Storm had finished.
18 Q. Now, did they tell that you that the people that had been taken
19 from the hospital and brought into the camp were ARSK wounded soldiers?
20 A. No. I just remember that there was people taken from the
21 hospital into our camp.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. KEHOE: My apologies, Your Honour.
24 Q. Now, I would like to turn to the subject, Mr. Dawes, of looting
25 which you talked about at some point yesterday. And you noted for us, I
Page 10516
1 believe it's in your statement, in your supplementary statement, that on
2 the 6th in Knin, the -- actually, what you say is that the looting -- he
3 witnessed on the 6th -- in Knin on the 6th appear to be organised and
4 systematic because the HV soldiers were separating valuable items for
5 loading into military trucks.
6 Do you recall that, sir?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, let us talk preliminarily about what was actually taken
9 here; and at the top of page 3 of your 1996 statement, in the second
10 paragraph, you note: "East of UN headquarters was a logistics base
11 mainly for small-arms. I saw the Croats taking away all those small-arms
12 after Storm."
13 Now, you noticed them taking arms from there.
14 A. You could see from inside our camp right down into that camp.
15 Q. I understand. Did they take other items from that camp?
16 A. I would assume so.
17 Q. So they would -- in addition to that, you were aware of the fact
18 that the northern barracks -- you mentioned to us that you were in the
19 northern barracks?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did the HV take items out of the northern barracks?
22 A. That would be a logical conclusion.
23 Q. You were aware of the Senjak barracks across from the Tvik
24 factory, are you not?
25 A. I am aware that there was -- may have been a military facility
Page 10517
1 there, but I have never entered it myself.
2 Q. Well, based on what you saw, would you included that the HV took
3 items out of that base as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you know that they had a headquarters downtown, that the ARSK
6 had a headquarters downtown?
7 A. I know that the government had a headquarters downtown.
8 Q. Would it, likewise, be logical based on what you saw that the HV
9 would take items from that location?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you would agree with me, sir, that -- that it would be logical
12 that the HV would go into all of the potential military -- or not
13 potential, military facilities in Knin and remove items for their own
14 use?
15 A. Logical.
16 Q. When you say you observe this on the 6th --
17 MR. KEHOE: If we could go back to P62.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, earlier you referred to the, you said,
19 supplementary statement without giving the paragraph number.
20 MR. KEHOE: It is a proofing statement, Judge. I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's a proofing statement, which we are not
22 aware of.
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Dawes, again using P62, this blank map, where were you
25 when you observed that the HV was systematically separating these items
Page 10518
1 for loading onto military trucks? Where were you and where did you see
2 this?
3 A. You just want to know where I saw people removing things from
4 buildings or saw vehicles with belongings in them as well?
5 Q. You testified on direct examination that there was a
6 systematic -- systematic method of separating valuable items that were
7 put on trucks and from other household items, and this was done by
8 the HV. I'd like to you on this map to, if there are multiple locations,
9 put numbers. But --
10 A. Along that route.
11 Q. Along that route, that's where you observed it.
12 Let me show you two documents, and we will go through these
13 quickly.
14 MR. KEHOE: If I can just put this chart into evidence before we
15 move on.
16 Your Honour, I'm just offering this into evidence.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
18 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D865.
21 JUDGE ORIE: D865 is admitted into evidence.
22 MR. KEHOE:
23 Q. Let me show you two documents, the first being 1D57-0096.
24 I recognise, Mr. Dawes, that you haven't seen this, but I just
25 want to -- for you to look at the content of these two documents.
Page 10519
1 This is a first a report from 11 August 1995 from the chief of
2 the 4th Guards Brigade, and we'll try to briefly go through these pages
3 because we have another document still.
4 MR. KEHOE: If we can turn the page, you see a multiple of items
5 you see inventory of war booty captured in Oluja, Operation Storm. On
6 the right-hand side, it notes the amount and/or the weight of those
7 items.
8 If we can go to the next page, I have no idea what a foot
9 lubrication device is, but there were two of them.
10 If we can go to the next page, in that page, you see office
11 furniture, chairs. Next page, washing machines, kitchen utensils
12 et cetera.
13 Q. Before we talk about this, Mr. Dawes, I want to show you one more
14 document, so we can move through this as quickly as possible, which is
15 65 ter 2053.
16 This is a bit of a longer list. This is an inventory of
17 collected war booty items from the 4th Guards Brigade, dated 13
18 August 1995, going to the Split Military District, personally the
19 commander. Again, talking about list of items seized.
20 If we can just go through this seriatim, it notes some biological
21 and chemical pieces. Next page, pretty much the same thing. Next page.
22 MR. KEHOE: Just scroll to page 7 in this document. We begin to
23 talk about the seizure of various types of weaponry. Can we go to the
24 next page.
25 Q. Next page, we get into more specific item, stereos, video
Page 10520
1 recorders, freezers. Next page, talking about trucks, automobiles. Next
2 page, yet more weaponry.
3 MR. KEHOE: Go two pages up.
4 Q. Bottom of the page, we notice some vehicles, a Fiat, an Opel?
5 MR. KEHOE: If we go to the next page.
6 Q. Again, we notice more trucks. Next page, this includes
7 typewriters, additional radio equipment, refrigerators at the bottom of
8 the page, freezers, gas stove.
9 MR. KEHOE: Next page.
10 JUDGE ORIE: One refrigerator, I take it, you are referring to.
11 MR. KEHOE: Refrigerator?
12 JUDGE ORIE: You used the plural.
13 MR. KEHOE: My apologies. Two freezers.
14 JUDGE ORIE: One refrigerator.
15 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
17 MR. KEHOE: If I misspeak, Judge, the document speaks --
18 Q. The next page, page 15, is at top of that page, if we can scroll
19 up, we have six TV sets, video recorder, VCR player. Again, towards the
20 bottom of that page, we have a Mercedes and a Lada.
21 MR. KEHOE: Can we scroll through the next page, and the next
22 page, please. Next page, please.
23 Q. Again, we have two colour TV sets, a hi-fi system.
24 MR. KEHOE: Can we go to the next page, and again another page
25 through.
Page 10521
1 Q. We see another coloured TV sets.
2 MR. KEHOE: I know at one point I saw a couple of refrigerators
3 in this, Judge, and that is the one I recall, frankly, where it says two
4 refrigerators at the top.
5 Q. Continuing on the next page, seven colour TV sets in the command
6 centre, cassette recorders, freezer, another refrigerator, various types
7 of weaponry.
8 MR. KEHOE: Continuing. Next page, please. Various types of
9 automobile equipment. Next page, please.
10 Q. Here, we have towards the bottom yet more office furniture, 15
11 office desks, three chairs.
12 MR. KEHOE: Next page.
13 Q. MR. KEHOE: Again, we've more office furniture at the top, 38
14 office chairs, canvas; 69 office chairs, wood and meatal?
15 MR. KEHOE: Go to the next page, and then we go to one last page.
16 I believe there's one last page.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Dawes, these items, such as furniture, TV sets, stereos,
18 et cetera, that you saw on this list, were these the type of items that
19 you saw being separated out systematically by the HV and being put on
20 trucks?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into
23 evidence 1D57-0096, as well as 65 ter 2053.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
25 MR. RUSSO: No objection, Your Honour.
Page 10522
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these documents becomes Exhibit
3 number D866 and Exhibit D867, respectively.
4 JUDGE ORIE: D866 and D876 are admitted into evidence.
5 MR. KEHOE:
6 Q. Let me -- you noted during the course of going through Knin on
7 the 6th, that you were stopped at a check-point by the military police
8 when you were coming back in. Do you recall that?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Okay. Let me -- and, again, you spent sometime in and around the
11 Knin area, up until November -- or October - October, I think it is -
12 October of 1995, and you saw quite a few military police check-point, did
13 you not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let me show you 65 ter 2747. And, again, I understand that this
16 is not a document that you've seen, Mr. Dawes. I just want you to take a
17 look at the content of the document, so we can discuss it a bit.
18 Now, this is a report from the 5th Company of the 72nd Military
19 Police Battalion out of Sinj.
20 MR. KEHOE: I notice a mistake in the document, Your Honour, from
21 the -- if we can scroll back up on the page, on the B/C/S.
22 We noticed the B/C/S -- my colleague Mr. Misetic notes that the
23 5th Company, it notes "Knin," and in the actual B/C/S original, it says
24 "Sinj." So I think we can get that corrected and uploaded for the sake
25 of accuracy.
Page 10523
1 JUDGE ORIE: That would be appreciated.
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
3 Q. This is a document from the 8th of August, 1995, a report on
4 items temporarily confiscated at check-points in the zone of
5 responsibility of the 5th Company of the Military Police, Sinj.
6 MR. KEHOE: If we could just page through this, at the bottom, it
7 describes the items. If we can go to the top -- can we go to the top of
8 the page.
9 Q. You notice Mercedes vehicles, engines.
10 MR. KEHOE: The right-hand column, for the sake of clarity, it
11 notes "place where found and seized" and notes the location in Knin where
12 these items --
13 And I must say, Judge, again, for the sake of accuracy, number 4
14 on this says "a DVD
15 had DVD
16 says -- if we can go back to four on the first page.
17 It notes that it's a video, as opposed to a DVD. Again, this is
18 a 65 ter document, and maybe we can correct that translation. Maybe we
19 did have DVDs in 1995 and I missed it, but I don't think so.
20 In any event, Judge, if we could just continue on in this page.
21 Q. It notes various personal items that you see, as we go down
22 towards the bottom of the page: Television sets, at 10; television sets,
23 at 16; DVD
24 MR. KEHOE: Continuing on, the next page.
25 Q. Again, we have, after that favorite accordion, a another couple
Page 10524
1 of TV sets, video recorders, telephones. Again, towards the bottom of
2 that page, 41, we have yet more TV sets.
3 Next page, type writer, stereo system. Again, going towards the
4 bottom of the page, after the weaponry, more stereo system.
5 MR. KEHOE: Go to the next page.
6 Q. Yet more electronics that were confiscated; 62 is another TV set;
7 an automobile, at 70; cassette player, at 78.
8 Next page, bicycles; another TV set, at 95; type writers, at 102.
9 MR. KEHOE: Next page, please.
10 Q. Again, various types of equipment; musical equipment; video
11 cameras; cassette players, at 114; television set, at 124; an automobile,
12 at 127. Next page, more television sets, at 129, 136, 143, 151, 153; as
13 well as some automobiles, at 149, 153, 154.
14 Next page, various types of personal items. Next page, again,
15 yet more electronic equipment, as well as weaponry. Next page, again,
16 more machine equipment; stereo systems, at 213; as well as various
17 vehicles, at 218, 221, 222, and that is all.
18 Now, sir, this particular listing that was confiscated at
19 check-points by the military police, were these the type of items that
20 you saw that were being confiscated by the military police as in and
21 around the Knin area during your stay there?
22 A. I never saw the military police confiscating items; I saw
23 Croatian soldiers confiscating items.
24 Q. So, just to clarify, as you were going through, you never
25 observed any of the military police stopping vehicles and confiscating
Page 10525
1 items from them?
2 A. I saw them stopping vehicles; I never saw them confiscating
3 items.
4 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into
5 evidence 65 ter 2747.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
7 MR. RUSSO: No objection.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D868.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D868 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. KEHOE: If I might have one moment, Your Honour.
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 Q. Now, sir, when you went out on the 6th, you did observe on the
14 6th that civilians were looting as well, weren't they?
15 A. There may have been some civilians looting.
16 Q. And, certainly, when you were talking about looting, the -- did
17 you make a determination or did you conclude that these were civilians
18 that had come back into the area and were looting items?
19 A. No, because the Croatian military police was very strict for the
20 first couple of days or -- sorry, the first week, for allowing civilians
21 from the coast to come back into the former RSK.
22 Q. Well, let me show you P352.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I noted that the columns four and five
24 were not translated in the documents we just admitted into evidence. The
25 translation we only find the -- you have seen that?
Page 10526
1 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour, I do see that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps with the assistance --
3 MR. KEHOE: We'll get it --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It would not take much, it is just numbers to
5 be added, unless the parties would agree that we can -- that they are of
6 lesser importance, and that the purpose of tendering this document into
7 evidence is to find a description of the type of items that were seized.
8 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, my preference would be not to agree to
9 that. The Prosecution will be certainly arguing with respect to the
10 number of items represented on the document, but we will work with the
11 Defence to have that corrected.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about numbers. I'm not talking
13 about numbers, but talking about I think the indications of where they
14 were seized exactly, and that is not filled in for all the items. I'm
15 not talking, again, not about numbers because they are translated.
16 Mr. Russo, would you consider that, because otherwise it will be
17 an additional effort which, if it doesn't bring us anything, of course
18 would should be avoided.
19 MR. RUSSO: Certainly, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We would like to hear from you, Mr. Kehoe.
21 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, in the spirit -- this is an OTP
22 document. In the spirit of making it as accurate as possible, we will
23 take any steps to do so.
24 Q. Turning your attention to the report that is on -- this is an UN
25 Sector South sitrep of the 6th of August, the first day that you say you
Page 10527
1 got out.
2 MR. KEHOE: And if I go to the last page, in paragraph F of the
3 last page -- I'm sorry, the second-to last page. Apologies. If we can
4 blow up paragraph F, five lines down.
5 Q. The writer of the Sector South sitrep notes: "More civilians
6 including cars with Split
7 Was that your experience as well, Mr. Dawes, that there were more
8 civilian in Knin as early as the 6th of August driving around with
9 vehicles with Split
10 A. I don't remember seeing that, Mr. Kehoe.
11 Q. You do recall, sir, that when you were going onto the Drnis road
12 on the 8th - and I refer to your statement, P980, at page 10, fourth
13 paragraph down, second sentence - "Soldiers and civilians were looting
14 the houses all along the road."
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I do now.
17 Q. And "soldiers," you mean people that were in camouflage dress
18 right?
19 A. I mean they were in full -- from headgear to footgear, they were
20 in uniform.
21 Q. And the soldiers were in the same locale as the civilians,
22 weren't they?
23 A. It seems to be, yes.
24 Q. And you know of no military operation, authorised military
25 operation, where soldiers and civilians operate together in this fashion,
Page 10528
1 do you?
2 A. No.
3 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, if we can -- I'm going to move subjects
4 here.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I am looking at the clock, if you are -- let me just
6 try to understand you. You said moving.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: You're moving to another subject.
9 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, unless you can finish then in two or
11 three minutes, I would rather have a break.
12 MR. KEHOE: Actually, I can't finish that subject in two or
13 three.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll have a break in two or three minutes.
15 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, I can't.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, you can't.
17 MR. KEHOE: Apologies.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then have a break.
19 Mr. Kehoe, could you tell us approximately how much time you
20 would still need.
21 MR. KEHOE: No more than an hour, Judge.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Hmm.
23 MR. KEHOE: One hour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it.
25 We'll have a break until 11.00.
Page 10529
1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, the Chamber has considered the time, and
4 unanimously concluded that you would have 45 minutes remaining.
5 Please proceed.
6 Q. Couple of topics, Mr. Dawes. The first is page 17 of your --
7 excuse me, page 11 of your 1996 statement. You talk about the killing of
8 Milan
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. And in that, you discuss this with two old ladies in the village,
11 who told you that a man wearing an HV uniform with a lightening bolt on
12 his shoulder badge came and shot Milan Babic, and the reason these ladies
13 gave to you was that the HV shoulders demanded two pigs and he refused?
14 A. That's what I was told.
15 Q. Now, you told us in direct examination, at page 10.381, line 23
16 and then it goes to 10.382, line 5, that Milan Babic was a Croat?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So, from the story that you told us, a Croatian soldier went into
19 a Croatian village and shot a Croatian male for not giving the soldiers
20 a pig?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, do you know, sir, whether that was -- I understand the
23 story. Do you know whether or not that that was some payback for some
24 other revenge between these Croats?
25 A. No, I don't.
Page 10530
1 Q. So you don't know anything other than what you just told us, that
2 it was a Croat killing a Croat for a pig?
3 A. Being told by two other Croatian ladies.
4 Q. Now, let me shift gears, sir, if I can, to your trip on the 6th.
5 Now, in your statement on page 8 - and, again, when I say your
6 "statement," I'm talking about area 1996 statement - about three
7 quarters of the way down on page 8, you noted, on going out with Andries
8 Dreyer that: "We were aware of the - this is the second sentence, pardon
9 me - "We were aware of the ongoing looting and wanted to go down to
10 collect our personal kit before the looters."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. So you were going down to get your personal belongings, downtown?
14 A. Andries Dreyer was going downtown to pick up his. My belongings
15 were on camp already. I had no belongings downtown.
16 Q. Would you agree with me, that's not what you say in the
17 statement?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So this would be more accurate to say you were going down to get
20 Dreyer's stuff and you were just going along with him. Is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, this came at a time where there was restriction of movement
23 on the 6th of August. Isn't that right?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And you also know that many people tried to get out of the base
Page 10531
1 on the 6th of August and were prevented from doing so, weren't they?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Now, before we go into your observations on the 6th, I take it
4 that after you came back on the 6th from your trip to Vrlika and the Krka
5 and Kistanje, et cetera, you came back and told people in the UN what you
6 observed. Is that right?
7 A. I would -- I can't remember. That makes natural sense that I
8 would do that.
9 Q. Who did you tell?
10 A. No idea.
11 Q. Well, let us -- let us talk a little bit about this statement and
12 just taking it seriatim, beginning on the bottom of page 8, you note that
13 you went out of the base and you went in the direction of Drnis to
14 Vrbnik, right? Then you noted that you saw eight to ten bodies that were
15 at a junction that were in body-bags, right?
16 I'm talking about that tame paragraph, right towards the end.
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You have no idea how these people were killed, do you?
19 A. No, I do not.
20 Q. You, likewise, have no idea where these bodies came from?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. So, as far as you know, they could have been killed in combat
23 operations or in any other possibilities. Isn't that right?
24 A. They were dead.
25 Q. Right. Now, you note for us that Vrbnik - and again, I'm talking
Page 10532
1 about on page 8 towards the bottom - you went to Vrbnik and it's a
2 village of approximately 50 houses.
3 A. Spread out. The town of Vrbnik
4 are outlying buildings. Approximately. I would have no idea today.
5 Q. Now, tell us a little bit about this trip. You went through
6 Vrbnik, you saw these body-bags at the junction. I take it you didn't
7 stop and examine those body-bags. Is that right?
8 A. No.
9 Q. What you observed in Vrbnik was as you were driving through?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Did you stop in Vrbnik?
12 A. Not that I can recall. Stopped, like got out of the vehicle? We
13 may have stopped the vehicle and paused, but I can't remember that. I do
14 not remember exiting the vehicle.
15 Q. Do you remember stopping the vehicle?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, you say in this item that you saw "a few HV soldiers."
18 Do you see that? "We were wearing civilian clothes and didn't
19 leave the van. We saw a few HV soldiers."
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You have no idea what these HV soldiers were doing, do you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You have no idea if they were a member of a unit or were just
25 wearing [Realtime transcript read in error "carrying] camouflage uniform,
Page 10533
1 do you?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I take it, sir, that you didn't stop and talk to these soldiers?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You just kept driving through?
6 A. How -- that's how you recollect it.
7 Q. Now, if we go could to your map, if I may.
8 MR. KEHOE: This is P --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, I'm just trying to -- we are at the
10 bottom page 8?
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, we are at the bottom much page 8.
12 JUDGE ORIE: "We sue a few HV soldiers." You said: "You have no
13 idea they were member of a unit or just carrying camouflage uniforms."
14 MR. KEHOE: "Just wearing camouflage."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't see the camouflage uniforms here,
16 whether they were wearing camouflage uniforms, did they?
17 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... I can develop that.
18 Q. I mean, you saw --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm just trying to find out what is in his
20 statement and how he recognised them as HV soldiers. The other question,
21 which is not clear, you said: "You had no idea what they were doing."
22 The statement describes that they were carrying TV sets, videos,
23 and other similar items, which is at least an activity.
24 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 10534
1 MR. KEHOE: Let me develop the first point.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Q. Bottom of page 8, is it accurate to say that what you saw was a
4 few individuals with camouflage uniforms on? Isn't that right?
5 A. I say a few -- when I say "HV," I can't recall if I saw if they
6 had insignia on right now, but obviously they would have been in uniform.
7 Q. And you concluded they were soldiers -- you would conclude that
8 they were soldiers simply based on the fact that they had camouflage on.
9 Isn't that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I think told us --
12 A. A full set of camouflage.
13 Q. I think you told us that you didn't stop and talk to them?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, with regard to what they were carrying, I mean the TV sets,
16 et cetera, you have no idea at this point if they were inventorying those
17 items similar to the lists that we showed you previously, do you?
18 A. I have no idea if they were cataloguing those items.
19 Q. Now, let us --
20 MR. KEHOE: Sorry, Judge, if that was -- by way of clarity, I
21 trust that --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KEHOE: -- suffices.
24 Let us turn to P983, and if I may just put a larger document in
25 which includes P983 -- if I can just pause one moment, Madam Usher, and
Page 10535
1 replace that request with 1D57-0114.
2 Your Honour, just by way of clarity, this is a multi-page
3 document, and this first page is a blow-up of P983.
4 Q. Now, if I may, Mr. Dawes, and -- correct me if I'm wrong at any
5 point, please.
6 A. No problem.
7 Q. As we take this item, you noted that you went from Vrlika. And I
8 take it, from your statement, you went from Vrlika, going to the bottom
9 of 8, to the Krka monastery, which is listed on the bottom of page 9. Is
10 that right?
11 A. As a general direction, correct.
12 Q. So you followed that bottom part of the route, up past the Krka
13 monastery, into Kistanje. Is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Now --
16 MR. RUSSO: I'm sorry. Can we please just correct the record. I
17 think it indicates, at line 16: "You went from Vrlika. And I take it,
18 from your statement, you went from Vrlika, going to the bottom of 8 ..."
19 And if we're referencing the map, I think that is Vrbnik, not
20 Vrlika.
21 MR. KEHOE: You are absolutely right, Mr. Russo.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. I had some difficulties in finding
23 the monastery in Krka on the bottom. I see it at the top of page 8 -- 9.
24 MR. KEHOE: It will be clear on the next page.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
Page 10536
1 MR. KEHOE: Okay.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Now, this again is the 6th of August, when the restrictions of
5 movement are in place. Is that right?
6 A. I am not supposed to be able to leave the camp.
7 Q. Right. Now, with the clarity that --
8 MR. KEHOE: I do appreciate that Mr. Russo.
9 Q. -- the clarity that Mr. Russo brought to bear, you went to Vrbnik
10 and then you went left on the lower portion of the loop towards Krka
11 monastery, right?
12 A. I'm not sure if it had been a left, but, yeah, okay, that general
13 direction.
14 Q. The lower portion?
15 A. I don't know what you mean by "the lower portion."
16 Q. Well, it's just a circle.
17 A. Oh.
18 Q. You see where Vrbnik is?
19 A. Yes, okay. I agree.
20 Q. Okay. So going from Vrbnik, you took that road to the left. Is
21 that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Okay. And you took that --
24 MR. KEHOE: And if we can, go to the next chart, which is again a
25 blow-up of the route that he took. If I may, Your Honour, you see the
Page 10537
1 Krka designated in the circle?
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
3 MR. KEHOE:
4 Q. Now, so you took this road, sir, across, past Krka, and up to
5 Kistanje. Is that the route that you gave?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How did you get across the river?
8 A. There's a bridge, I believe, to the left of the Krka monastery.
9 Q. Well, there is no bridge is there, sir?
10 A. Mr. Kehoe, I was the accommodation officer for Sector South. I
11 travelled that route two or three times a week for over a year. The
12 specifics of the exact dirt road I took, I'm not quite sure; but that is
13 the general direction I went that day.
14 Q. Well, you've told us that you took this record that you have put
15 into evidence in the Prosecution's case.
16 A. Can you go back to the original map, please.
17 Q. Excuse me. You told us during your case that you took this road
18 into Kistanje, and the fact is that there is it no such road, is there?
19 A. I'm saying that there is.
20 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next chart in this array.
21 This is the Google Earth item where the Krka monastery is, and I
22 put to you, sir, there is none and never has been any bridge over the
23 Krka River
24 A. When was this Google Earl taken.
25 Q. I put to you, sir, the question -- do you understand my question
Page 10538
1 have?
2 A. Maybe you can say it again.
3 Q. My question to you, sir, is that there is and never has been a
4 bring over the Krka River
5 A. I don't know how to answer your question.
6 Q. Let's go to the next chart. Maybe that will help.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, if you put a Google Earth picture to the
8 witness in support of your question, then if the witness says, When was a
9 that one taken," especially if you say "There never has been," then I
10 think it would be appropriate to give an answer to the witness, rather
11 than to, say, don't give the answer.
12 MR. KEHOE: I understand, Judge.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. KEHOE:
15 Q. This is a Google Earth presentation that can be obtained right
16 now.
17 A. So it was not taken during the time-frame of Operation Storm?
18 Q. No, sir.
19 A. So what I am telling you, Your Honour, is that that was the route
20 that I took on that day. If you go back to my original route, I can
21 explain how I drew that route, which may add some more levity to the
22 situation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any need to explain that. Let's first
24 wait and see what further questions are put to you by Mr. Kehoe, and if
25 there's then any need to further explore how you put that route on the
Page 10539
1 map, we will give an opportunity to you or we might even ask for it.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KEHOE: Can we go to the next chart in this array, which is a
4 similar angle, with Kistanje up in the left-hand corner and the Krka
5 monastery in the centre of the photograph, with the Krka River
6 past with no bridge.
7 The next chart.
8 Q. This has the actual locations, two locations, of the bridge over
9 the Krka river; area 1 and area 2, respectively.
10 MR. KEHOE: If we go to the next chart.
11 Q. Again, the Google Earth matters of the two bridge locations.
12 MR. KEHOE: And then the next chart.
13 Q. Using the exhibit that we have, P983, and the location of
14 bridge 1, we have both the designation from P983, as well as the
15 satellite -- Google satellite map that reflects the bridge.
16 MR. KEHOE: And if we go to the next chart.
17 Q. This is the location of bridge 2, the left again in this being
18 the P983 bridge location; and in the circle, it shows the bridge again in
19 the Google Earth.
20 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, at this time, we will offer into
21 evidence 1D57-0114.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
23 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I would object to all but the first two
24 pages. I don't think the witness has provided any foundation for the
25 remaining exhibits. As a matter of fact, I think he has said he doesn't
Page 10540
1 agree with them.
2 MR. KEHOE: We will then bar table these documents, Your Honour,
3 for Your Honours' consideration.
4 MR. RUSSO: And, again, we would object to that, Your Honour.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
7 Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit D869, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: D869 is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. KEHOE: So going back to the first map in this array, which
11 is P983 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, in view of the answers the witness has
13 given the questions that you were put to him, that we give him an
14 opportunity now, as he offered earlier, to explain how this route on the
15 map was marked, especially in view of the questions that were put to you.
16 Apparently, the position of the Gotovina Defence is that where
17 you said that you took this route and crossed the river, where there was
18 a bridge, that the apparent position of the Gotovina Defence is that
19 there was no bridge.
20 THE WITNESS: Sir, back in April, on my way to Afghanistan, I was
21 stopped in The Hague
22 by the Prosecutor. He asked me in April to draw the general area, the
23 route that I took, while matching up with my statement. That map was
24 approximately a metre long by a metre wide; and in a matter of five
25 minutes, I drew the general route I took.
Page 10541
1 I don't believe that that's the best map that I could have been
2 given. If I would have shown an actual map that had all the routes on
3 it, I could have drawn a more accurate map.
4 What I'm telling you is that that is the general area that I
5 drove that day, and I definitely went to Vrbnik, Kistanje, Srb, and Knin
6 in had a curricular way and I bypassed the Krka monastery. That's what I
7 am saying.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Which would then mean that the way marked where you
9 crossed that river might not be accurate; is that right?
10 THE WITNESS: Correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
12 Q. As a follow-up to what you just said, you maintain that you went
13 with Andries Dreyer, right?
14 A. I went with Andries Dreyer.
15 Q. Now, let us talk a little bit about your first trip into
16 Kistanje, and you noted for us that - and this is again in your
17 statement - that you saw houses marked with "Croatian house" on it. How
18 many houses did you see marked with "Croatian house"?
19 A. I cannot remember.
20 Q. Well, can you give us an estimate?
21 A. No, I cannot.
22 Q. Do you know whether or not any of the -- did you visit Kistanje
23 after the 6th of -- allegedly went there on the 6th of August?
24 A. I may have, but I can't remember. It was in my area of
25 responsibility, but I don't remember specifically.
Page 10542
1 Q. Did those houses that had "Croatian house" on it, were they, in
2 fact, burnt after that?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Well, did you look?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Now, you noted for us that you then went to Srb, and I continue
7 on your statement. In your statement, going over on to the next page, on
8 page 9, and you some dead individuals on the side of the road. Is that
9 right?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And some of those individuals had various forms of camouflage on,
12 didn't they?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. So you don't know whether or not those people were civilians or
15 soldiers, do you?
16 A. No, I do not know, but I do know that there was some women there
17 that did not have any camouflage on.
18 Q. Now, you saw vehicles that had also been shot. Is that right?
19 A. There was small arms fire to the vehicles.
20 Q. In addition to ARSK vehicles, isn't that right?
21 A. You mean, ARSK, as military vehicles?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. I can't remember seeing military -- I can remember sing the
24 ambiguous Yugo there; you know, the one that looks like Volkswagen
25 Rabbit.
Page 10543
1 Q. You note in your statement that you saw abandoned ARSK military
2 equipment?
3 A. Yes, that was -- I believe I am referring to a tank.
4 Q. Okay. Pardon me. That's a vehicle, isn't it?
5 A. I guess I was thinking more of a passenger vehicle.
6 Q. At this location -- do you know what a fighting withdrawal is?
7 A. I'm familiar with the term.
8 Q. Do you have any idea whether or not as the Serb population was
9 withdrawing with the ARSK if they were fighting as they were withdrawing?
10 A. I wasn't there. I wouldn't know.
11 Q. So --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe.
13 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry.
14 Q. So to round this out, Mr. Dawes, you have no -- again you have no
15 information as to how these individuals were killed?
16 A. None.
17 Q. Now, you told us that you went out with Andries Dreyer on
18 the 6th, and what you have told us this Trial Chamber, and is in your
19 reports, you believe are significant events that you believe needed to be
20 told to the Office of the Prosecutor and the Chamber. Isn't that right?
21 A. About that trip?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let me put to you P72, page 6, paragraph 20.
25 Mr. Dawes, this is the statement given to the Office of the
Page 10544
1 Prosecutor by Andries Dreyer recounting what took place on the 6th.
2 And without reading it aloud, you can note that Mr. Dreyer says
3 nothing about any trip to Vrbnik, Kistanje, or Srb on the 6th.
4 A. I can read that.
5 Q. And I put to you, sir, how it is that an event of such
6 significance in your mind could have bypassed, or possibly bypassed,
7 Mr. Dreyer in a time when there was such a restriction of movement.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
9 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I will object. That calls for pure
10 speculation as to the workings of Mr. Dreyer's mind.
11 MR. KEHOE: I take it that -- this is an item that the
12 Prosecution has put into evidence --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see --
14 MR. KEHOE: -- and I offered him an opportunity to explain.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dawes, would there be anything, to your
16 knowledge, which would explain why Mr. Dreyer has not mentioned this
17 trip; whereas, you gave extensive evidence on it?
18 THE WITNESS: I could speculate, Your Honour, but it would be
19 speculation.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we're not seeking speculation, but usually
21 based on something. Is there anything in your knowledge which would the
22 basis of what you want to present as your speculation?
23 THE WITNESS: I believe Mr. Dreyer is still currently an UN
24 worker. On August the 6th, we were allowed to enter into the town of
25 Knin, but we were not allowed to go on a sightseeing trip.
Page 10545
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What you say is that the fact that you are not
2 allowed to make this trip may have been at the basis of not referring to
3 it in the report. Is that it?
4 THE WITNESS: Correct, sir.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You relate this to the fact that you did something
6 you were not allowed to do.
7 THE WITNESS: Correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Kehoe.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. So, just taking that answer, that based on the fact that he was
12 not allowed, that that was the reason why he didn't describe this trip to
13 Kistanje. Is that your statement?
14 A. I don't know if that could be my statement, but that is what I'm
15 speculating.
16 Q. Well, they weren't supposed to go into Knin either, were they --
17 were you?
18 A. No. I believe we were allowed to go into Knin on the 6th.
19 Q. There was restriction of movements to go in Knin.
20 A. There is different levels of restriction of movement specifically
21 with an UN security officer.
22 Q. Turn to page 6 - page 8, last paragraph.
23 A. Very last paragraph.
24 Q. Third-to last paragraph: "Andries succeeded in getting through
25 the main gate by telling the Jordanian camp guard about his security
Page 10546
1 business?
2 A. That's correct. So if Andries was conducting security business
3 in Knin, I believe he would have been allowed to be in Knin. He was a
4 security guy, after all. Again, I am speculating.
5 Q. But, in fact, he was going Knin to check on his personal item,
6 right?
7 A. We did that on the roundabout part of the trip.
8 Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Dawes, that the only place that you went on
9 the 6th was to Knin with Mr. Dreyer? Isn't that a fact?
10 A. That's not a fact.
11 Q. Well, let us turn, sir, if we can, to the situation report for
12 UN Sector South. This is just one of many, and this is of the 6th.
13 MR. KEHOE: This is P351, to show the first page, please.
14 Q. Now, and let us turn to the fourth page in. You do note that
15 Captain Hill was permitted to go to Knin, don't you?
16 A. I wouldn't -- yes. It would stand to reason that he would be
17 allowed to go to Knin, yes.
18 Q. And in the centre of that page is discussing Captain Hill, and
19 I'm talking about point B under HQ Sector South, where it talks about
20 Mr. Hill going into Knin, and midway through, says that: "OC MP PL
21 entered buildings looking for evidence of looting and destruction ..."
22 A. "Officer in charge is military police platoon."
23 Q. Just reading it literally: "... and found little evidence of
24 ransacking or wanton destruction. What looting there is seems limited to
25 beer and portable radios," and it goes on to discuss the situation.
Page 10547
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It reads also "et cetera," after the --
2 MR. KEHOE: Yes, I'm sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. KEHOE:
5 Q. I put to you, sir, there is nothing in this report about your
6 trip to Kistanje or Srb or Vrbnik. Who did you report this to?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. The Chamber, on this score, on the 6th --
9 MR. KEHOE: And I don't want to mislead the Court that this is
10 the only report of the 6th. In the 6th, there is P348, 349, 350, 351,
11 352. On the 7th, there is sitreps, 353, 354, 355.
12 Q. In all of these sitreps, over the course of two days, Mr. Dawes,
13 there is no reflection whatsoever of your trip to Kistanje, Srb, and
14 Vrbnik and what you observed, and I want to explain to this Chamber why.
15 A. I cannot tell you why.
16 MR. KEHOE: If I might have one moment, Your Honour.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I trust I'm within my time-frame, and I
19 have no further questions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
21 I'm looking at the other Defence counsel to see if the situation
22 is still the same.
23 Mr. Kay.
24 MR. KAY: I have no questions, Your Honour.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Same, Your Honour, no questions. Thank you.
Page 10548
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo, is there any need for further
2 re-examination of the witness.
3 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
5 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Russo:
7 Q. Mr. Dawes, let me go, first, to the last question you were just
8 asked. You have already indicated to the Court that you were not
9 permitted to take the trip you took on the 6th of August outside of Knin.
10 Can you tell the Court whether, given the fact that you were not
11 allowed to do that, you would have submitted an official report
12 indicating that you had?
13 A. No, I would not have submitted a official report.
14 MR. KEHOE: I object. I object. That is counter to what he just
15 said. He said he told people in the headquarters. That's what he said
16 in cross-examination.
17 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, he may have told people who were in
18 headquarters; that doesn't mean he filed an official report.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is that what he said, that he told, or that he
20 assumed that? Let me just see.
21 Could you give me the page and line reference, Mr. Kehoe.
22 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... Mr. Misetic is pulling
23 it up.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's my recollection that he said something of
25 the kind: It would be logical to assume.
Page 10549
1 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That, of course, is not the same as what you now
3 say. "He told" is not the same as "I assume" or "it would be logical,"
4 which means a reconstruction rather than actual knowledge; and reporting
5 and telling, of course, is not exactly the same.
6 Mr. Russo.
7 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Dawes, you were asked yesterday regarding one of your
9 neighbours who had an anti-aircraft weapon in his backyard, and I believe
10 you indicated that that was at one of your earlier accommodations in
11 Knin. Is that right?
12 A. That would have been the first two months of living in Knin.
13 Q. What time-frame would that have been?
14 A. I would have to check back through the records to find out when I
15 first arrived Knin, but it would have been in the first two months of
16 that.
17 Q. You can check the first page of your first statement. I believe
18 it indicates your tour of duty?
19 A. From May, so it was my first residence, soit would have been May,
20 May/June, potentially part of July, of 1994.
21 Q. And can you tell the Court when the last time you saw this
22 anti-aircraft weapon was?
23 A. It would have been while I was living there.
24 Q. I believe you also indicated that he had used this anti-aircraft
25 weapon to fire at drones. Is that right?
Page 10550
1 A. I believe I said that would be possible that he would have fired
2 on drones. I remember him firing it off just at the end of football
3 games and basketball games myself.
4 Q. Can you tell the Court whether you ever saw him of firing at any
5 kind of aircraft?
6 A. No, I don't remember.
7 Q. Thank you. You were also asked, Mr. Dawes, about the dead
8 civilians that you saw, or what you said were dead civilians, on the
9 streets and sidewalks of downtown Knin on your first trip on 4 August.
10 I believe Mr. Kehoe was asking whether or not you knew if any of
11 those males were part of the RSK or not. I'd like to you tell the Court
12 whether you saw any dead females on the streets of Knin?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And with respect to the dead males that you saw, can you tell the
15 Court whether all of them, some of them, or none of them had on a full
16 military uniform?
17 A. None of them had a full military uniform, but some of them had
18 partially military uniforms.
19 Q. Are you able to tell the Court whether any of the dead people you
20 saw had any weaponry in or around their person?
21 A. I do not recall seeing any weapons.
22 Q. You were also asked, Mr. Dawes, about the 12 to 15 ARSK soldiers
23 that you saw in Potkonje during one of your trips on the 4th of August,
24 and I'd like you to tell the Court whether or not there was any shelling
25 of Potkonje while you were there.
Page 10551
1 A. There was no direct shelling of Potkonje. The shelling was in
2 the general area of that area, but not on the village itself.
3 Q. And are you able to tell the Court whether these 12 or 15 ARSK
4 soldiers appeared to you to be operating as a unit or otherwise?
5 A. They were in complete panic as to what to do with themselves, and
6 their first -- I believe their first order of business -- well, their
7 first logical thought, I guess, was to kidnap a bunch of unarmed UN
8 observers, to take them hostage. So I would -- I would say to you that
9 they were acting in an unmilitary-like manner.
10 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about the four ARSK trucks you
11 had seen on the 4th of August, carrying lightly wounded soldiers; and you
12 marked for the Defence, on an aerial photograph of Knin, the direction in
13 which they were going.
14 I'd like to take you to there. It's page 6 of your first
15 statement, and I don't know --
16 MR. RUSSO: I'm not sure, Your Honour, but if we call up that
17 exhibit that he marked and then put additional markings on it, if that
18 can be submitted as a subsequent exhibit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That can be admitted as a subsequent exhibit, Madam
20 Registrar, if I'm not mistaken.
21 So we call it up and then it will be stored again with additional
22 markings. That's what you suggest.
23 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 In that event, I would ask for Madam Registrar to call up D864.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's similar to P62, which is, of course, a
Page 10552
1 basic document to which markings were added.
2 MR. RUSSO: Yes, Mr. President.
3 Q. Mr. Dawes, looking at page 6 of your statement, and it's at the
4 bottom of that first full paragraph, where you indicate that: "Just
5 before we left the area, we saw four ARSK truck with lightly wounded
6 personnel coming from the direction of the Strmica road."
7 It says, "the ... passed us just outside of the POL station, and
8 we had to pull over the APC
9 north-west. At the junction just before the main road, I met a few ARSK
10 soldiers from the so-called ear-ring brigade."
11 If you could indicate on the map which is now on your screen, I
12 would ask for the court usher's assistance to mark in red, the portion
13 where you say that they passed you just outside the POL station; and when
14 you say they went in the direction north-west, if you could indicated on
15 this map where you meant they were going north-west.
16 A. Certainly.
17 I'll mark first the POL
18 was the general direction they were travelling up to, Mr. Russo?
19 Q. That's correct.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. RUSSO: If I could have this image admitted, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No objection, I take it.
24 Madam Registrar, the already marked document with additional
25 markings that would be ...
Page 10553
1 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P984, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: P984 is admitted into evidence.
3 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Mr. Dawes, you were shown a number of reports --
5 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, excuse me. Just clarification, Judge, I
6 think that came as 984, but I take it - correct me if I'm wrong,
7 Mr. Russo - I think that one of your aerials with the witness's markings
8 was 984.
9 MR. RUSSO: That is correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to me. I think P62 was
11 marked in relation to what the witness observed, I think, people arriving
12 from the Strmica area, if I'm not mistaken. The witness explain what we
13 could not see on this map was the cross-roads just east of that, and he
14 indicated the direction.
15 MR. KEHOE: Maybe I'm not the clear, Judge. I think that 984 has
16 already been received in evidence, and I think we just received this over
17 no objection as P984.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there are additional markings on it, isn't
19 it?
20 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I think Mr. Kehoe is attempting to say
21 that the number should be P985.
22 JUDGE ORIE: P985, if that is the case, then I have no ...
23 [Overlapping speakers]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Kehoe is correct, Your Honours. Registry
25 stands corrected.
Page 10554
1 MR. KEHOE: I am honoured.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's P985. But it's the picture you want to
3 have on the screen, isn't it?
4 MR. RUSSO: That's correct, Judge.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You asked for P984, and Madam Registrar knew what
6 the needs were, isn't it?
7 MR. RUSSO: Actually, that is not correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, perhaps I'm lost. If the parties have no
9 problems at this moment anymore, then I'll --
10 MR. KEHOE: That's good, Judge.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- I'll just render.
12 Yes.
13 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Mr. Dawes, you were shown a number of documents with respect to
15 the collection and inventory of what has been called war booty, including
16 televisions, apparently DVD
17 MR. RUSSO: And just for the Court's benefit, I believe at that
18 time laser disc players were in existence, simply very large looking CDs.
19 MR. KEHOE: I'm not taking that crap. That is Mr. Misetic's
20 deal.
21 MR. RUSSO:
22 Q. And what I'd like to ask you with respect to the items that you
23 were referred to in those documents as having been seized by the military
24 police. What I'd like to ask you is: At any check-points, did you ever
25 see anyone, either civilian or military, being arrested for carrying
Page 10555
1 looted items?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. And somewhere in there, you also indicated that you saw
4 HV soldiers confiscating items, and I wasn't clear about what you meant
5 by that. Were these soldiers confiscating items from certain people, or
6 did you mean that term to include something else?
7 A. I believe Mr. Kehoe used that word "confiscating," and I sort of
8 followed on with it. What I meant was that the Croatian soldiers were
9 taking items from houses.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I seek further clarification in that respect.
12 I think you were talking about apartment buildings where they
13 were piled in front of those buildings, is that right; or did you also
14 see piles of goods before, for example, barracks or government buildings
15 or police stations?
16 THE WITNESS: Sir, I saw items being taken out of different
17 military installations, yes; but specific to what I think Mr. Russo is
18 talking about was civilian apartment buildings where Croatian soldiers
19 were seen removing items.
20 Is that clear?
21 JUDGE ORIE: So you saw that -- well, let me just have a look.
22 Yes. When you say Croatian soldiers were taking items from
23 houses, that's where you referred to apartment buildings, civilian
24 premises.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Page 10556
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you also saw, as you told us, goods being
2 taken from, let's say, official buildings.
3 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. And just to further clarify on that issue, can you say - if you
7 can recall - whether or not you saw televisions, DVD players, all of
8 those things, being taken out of official installations?
9 A. For the record, I never saw a DVD player in the RSK. What was
10 your question again? I'm fixated on the DVD player.
11 Q. As are apparently the rest of the people in the courtroom.
12 Let's just stick to televisions for now. Can you tell the Court
13 whether or not you saw televisions, or let's include also stereos, being
14 removed from official installations?
15 A. I cannot recall.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, you were also were questioned with respect to
17 your observations in Vrbnik on the 6th of August, where you indicated
18 that you saw a few HV soldiers carrying TV sets and such other items; and
19 you were asked whether or not you had any idea if they were cataloguing
20 or selecting war booty.
21 You did mention - and this appears at transcript page 10.405,
22 from lines 21 to 24 - you made a distinction between what you had
23 observed in Vrbnik and Kistanje versus what you had observed in Knin,
24 calling what you observed in Vrbnik and Kistanje "disorganised" versus
25 what you saw in Knin as "organised."
Page 10557
1 I would like to you please explain why you made a distinction
2 between what you saw in Vrbnik and what you saw in Knin.
3 A. Vrbnik -- and I apologise for my lack of better words that I
4 could be using from the military perspective.
5 Vrbnik was very unorganized. It was happenstance. People
6 were -- soldiers were walking in and out of buildings taking items, not
7 putting them in different piles, so a pile of TVs, a pile of stereos, a
8 pile of personal belongings. It was chaotic. It wasn't as organised as
9 it was in Knin where there was definitely a -- law and order was
10 prevailing. There was command and control of the situation where items
11 were being placed into different piles, so furniture, TVs, stereos, and
12 appliances. Then items of what I call no value, clothing, were dumped
13 into huge piles at the front of the streets for removal.
14 Q. Thank you. The last issue I'd like to address is what you
15 observed at the intersection for Srb on the return trip to Knin on the
16 6th of August. You were asked some questions about that by Mr. Kehoe as
17 to whether or not you saw any ARSK military vehicles.
18 I'd like to refer to you page 9 of your first statement, and you
19 can look to the middle of the page where you're discussing what you see
20 in Kistanje. You indicate you were only there for 15 minutes, and then
21 you say: "I didn't see one civilian in Kistanje that day, neither saw I
22 any civilian Croatian car. All cars were either abandoned Serb cars or
23 HV army vehicles."
24 Then you indicate that you drove the main road back to Knin, and
25 you say: "At the intersection to Srb, we noticed lots of splay damages
Page 10558
1 on the road and lots of abandoned civilian Serb cars with damages after,
2 not shelling but small arms fire."
3 During Mr. Kehoe's question, you did mention that you had seen an
4 ARSK tank somewhere. I would like you to clarify for the Court whether
5 at that particular intersection, where you saw these dead civilians, did
6 you see any military vehicles at that particular intersection?
7 A. Not at that particular intersection.
8 Q. And are you able to tell the Court approximately how far from
9 that intersection you saw the first ARSK military vehicle?
10 A. Accurately, no. I could not tell you the distance. It was not
11 immediately close to the intersection, and it wasn't in the direction of
12 Knin. It was on the direction towards Kistanje.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. RUSSO: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions for you.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes, Mr. Dawes.
19 Can I take you back to your statement of 1996, page 11, the third
20 paragraph. In the middle, it will says: "Every time a contract was
21 closed and a facility handed over, the house, or whatever it was, was
22 destroyed, either blown up or a tap broken so that water made the
23 destruction."
24 My question is: Would you know why these properties were
25 destroyed and did you actually witness this happening?
Page 10559
1 A. To answer your question, Your Honour, I did not see who did this
2 destruction. This was mainly in the Canadian AOR. Was there any other
3 question asked that I didn't answer?
4 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Yes. I asked whether you knew why this was done,
5 whether you actually witnessed it happening.
6 A. I didn't witness it happening, and I don't know why it was done.
7 JUDGE GWAUNZA: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Since I have no further questions for you,
9 Mr. Dawes, any need for further questions by the Defence.
10 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kehoe, you may proceed.
12 Further cross-examination by Mr. Kehoe:
13 MR. KEHOE:
14 Q. On this situation with the anti-aircraft weapon, and returning to
15 page 10.435, line 1, I asked you this question, and did you give this
16 answer:
17 "Now, Mr. Dawes, you mentioned that your neighbour fired it at
18 football games. He also fired it at aircraft that was passing over head,
19 didn't he?
20 "A. It is an anti-aircraft weapon, so I would probably say yes.
21 "Q. Well, did he not fire it at drones that were flying about
22 the area?
23 "A. That was standard protocol for the Serbs to fire at drones."
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I intervened.
25 MR. KEHOE:
Page 10560
1 Q. [Overlapping speakers] ... intervened. I think I said --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I asked you whether you heard or whether you saw
3 such firing, apparently related to drones.
4 MR. KEHOE: Right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then you confirmed that you did, and that's a bit
6 different from what you told us today.
7 THE WITNESS: Sir, I cannot remember that specific anti-aircraft
8 gun-firing at drones, but it was standard. I did see Serbs fire at
9 drones at other locations, but not that specific anti-aircraft site.
10 MR. KEHOE:
11 Q. You noted for us that -- in response to questions by Mr. Russo,
12 that you hadn't seen the weapons since you moved out of that area. Is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did he get rid of it?
16 A. I don't know. Probably not, it was a pretty valuable piece of
17 kit.
18 Q. So that pretty valuable piece of kit, as far as you know, was
19 there until Operation Storm. Is that right?
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's --
21 MR. KEHOE:
22 Q. As far as you know.
23 A. As far as I know.
24 MR. RUSSO: Now, let's go back to P985.
25 Q. This is the chart that you put in just now with Mr. Russo.
Page 10561
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps I could clarify. Earlier I said: "I
2 render." I meant at that time: "I surrender."
3 As a matter of fact, in my efforts to again demonstrate that the
4 Registry is always right, I may have made a mistake, so I'm blaming
5 myself, because finally I think I said that P984 was admitted into
6 evidence, then we had a discussion about P985, and I did not declare that
7 having been admitted into evidence, which I do now.
8 So we're now at P985 which is in evidence.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, we won't call it a mistake but an
11 oversight. It's much gentler.
12 Q. Taking a look at P985, this is the direction those four trucks
13 were going in. Is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Were you aware or do you know whether or not these soldiers were
16 moving towards the area of Bulina Strana to prepare for the defence of
17 Knin?
18 A. I don't know where that location is.
19 Q. Well, are you are -- you were aware of the munitions depot on the
20 other side of the road that you weren't permitted to go into?
21 A. Absolutely. Is that what you're talking about?
22 Q. In that general area.
23 A. It is quite feasible that they could have turned down that road
24 to go there.
25 Q. Mr. Russo asked you questions about arrests for looting. As you
Page 10562
1 sit here, sir, you have no knowledge about any arrests for looting or for
2 seized items by the military police, do you?
3 A. No, I do not.
4 Q. Now, changing subjects to going through the houses that you noted
5 HV soldiers were taking items out of houses. Now, were you aware that
6 soldiers, ARSK soldiers, had been living in those houses?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Were you aware that during one of these searches of one of these
9 houses -- apartment buildings, that the HV seized a Zolja rocket from an
10 ARSK soldier in one of those houses -- one were those apartment
11 buildings?
12 A. No, I was not.
13 Q. You would expect the HV to take that item, wouldn't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So it would be accurate to say that when you saw HV soldiers
16 going into individual apartments throughout Knin, you have no knowledge
17 who was living in that apartment, specifically you have no knowledge if
18 it was an ARSK soldier or not?
19 A. Just the houses that UN civilians were living in, I just have
20 knowledge of those houses.
21 Q. So the answer is with regard to for instance any type of
22 high-rise, you have no knowledge of who was living in those individual
23 places?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Now, on the situation with Vrbnik, the items that you saw seized,
Page 10563
1 I mean you have no knowledge whether or not those were, in fact, seized
2 by the military police or were registered in a similar manner as we've
3 seen from these document, do you?
4 A. No, I do not.
5 MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kehoe.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour. Just one follow-up question, if I
8 may, relating to questions that were just asked.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You didn't use your right to cross-examine the
10 witness, but let not be over-formalistic.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate that.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
13 Q. Mr. Dawes, you talked about check-points. You left Sector South
14 on August 10th for two weeks; correct?
15 A. Correct, in and around that date.
16 Q. At least it's referenced in your first statement, P80 [sic], on
17 page 11, that: "On the 10th of August, I left Sector South for Canada
18 for two weeks because of medical reasons." Correct?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. In that time-frame, how many days -- I think you said you were
21 out of the UN Sector South camp twice, between the time of Operation
22 Storm until the time you left on August 10th, am I correct or was it more
23 than that?
24 A. I believe it was twice.
25 Q. Okay. So, in those two times, that was the only experience you
Page 10564
1 had up until the time you left on August 10th in dealing with any
2 check-points or observations of any check-point; correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's all. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: No problem, Mr. Kehoe [sic].
7 MR. KEHOE: That was very good.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What's in a name, isn't it?
9 Mr. Dawes, this concludes your evidence. I would like to thank
10 you very much for coming to The Hague
11 you were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you a
12 safe trip home again.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Russo.
16 MR. RUSSO: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution is
17 prepared to proceed with its next witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to raise another matter very briefly,
19 if you would allow me, and then I will give you an opportunity to
20 proceed.
21 There were questions about the bomblets, and it was included in
22 one of the questions that you would need, at least that was suggested,
23 that you would need special equipment to fire them.
24 Now, one of the questions, as I think Mr. Kehoe explained
25 earlier, that it is the first time we hear about these bomblets, but,
Page 10565
1 nevertheless, I wondered whether it's a matter of ammunition that can be
2 fired by normal equipment. We know that, for example, that if you use a
3 mortar, you can load it with all different kind of ammunition, with all
4 different kinds of trigging mechanisms for explosions.
5 Now, one of the things I asked myself is whether firing these
6 bomblets, whether that is a matter of ammunition or whether it's a matter
7 of specific firing equipment which you need to fire that.
8 I'm asking myself whether, although it seems not to be one of the
9 main and big issues in this case, whether the parties have knowledge
10 about it, and whether they could agree on it.
11 That was of no use I think to ask the witness because I did not
12 have the impression that he could help us out.
13 MR. KEHOE: I can answer the question, Judge, and when he said he
14 didn't know anything further, of course I didn't pursue it.
15 The weapon system that is used for that is called an Orkan rocket
16 system. What it does is it is just like a rocket system that send out
17 multi-barrels. It then goes at a certain altitude, it opens up, and
18 these bomblets come down on the ground.
19 At this particular time, the HV didn't have that. It was --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think --
21 MR. KEHOE: I understand.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's not what I asked because --
23 MR. KEHOE: [Overlapping speakers] ... type of system --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... to evidence.
25 MR. KEHOE: It's not the type of system you that you can put in a
Page 10566
1 mortar.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do then understand, if you would agree, Mr. Russo,
3 that this is it a special type of rocket you could fire --
4 MR. KEHOE: Right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: - with a multi-barrel rocket launcher. Is that it?
6 If the parties could agree on it or seek agreement on it, so that we know
7 what we're talking about.
8 MR. RUSSO: Your Honour, I will say I do not agree with
9 Mr. Kehoe's indication that only the Orkan can do it; however, we can
10 certainly get together and agree about what weapons which were available
11 at the time were cable of either doing that or being modified to do that,
12 as occurred, of course, in the Martic case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because reference was made to firing on Zagreb
14 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, I'd like to fully understand what we're
16 talking about. If the parties could come any closer to each other in
17 this respect, I would appreciate to be informed about any stipulation.
18 MR. KEHOE: [Microphone not activated]
19 Of course, that Martic case was -- that was the one
20 [indiscernible] knowledge on the Orkan rocket system was on the Martic
21 case back in 1995.
22 But we will get together and go through the weapon system
23 available for that such -- that item.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
25 Mr. Russo, I interrupted you earlier.
Page 10567
1 MR. RUSSO: I apologise, Your Honour.
2 Before moving on, I just want to put on the record that P983 and
3 P984 have both been replaced by the digitally-enhanced images.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I saw that already for P984 that it has been
5 replaced, when I checked the P984 and 985 issue.
6 MR. RUSSO: Thank you. I was going to ask the Chamber whether we
7 could take an earlier break to switch seats and set up, or if the
8 Prosecution could be given a couple of minutes to do that, whatever the
9 Court's pleasure.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: In relation to your next witness, Mr. Russo, there
13 are a few outstanding issues, that is, admission in full or in part of
14 the 92 ter statement, that's one; and the second is about an attachment
15 to the 92 ter statement. The Chamber will have to decide on that. Of
16 course, we have looked already at the submissions made in this respect.
17 And before we continue, I would have one question, and I'm
18 specifically addressing the Defence. Is it right that the Prosecution
19 has filed its submission of the 92 ter statement, the motion seeking the
20 92 ter statement to be admitted on the 23rd of September; and that one of
21 the responses that was the Markac response which was not, at that time at
22 least, opposing the motion in any way, was filed before the 8th of
23 October, but that all other responses were not filed any earlier than the
24 8th of October, and that is a matter which might be relative under Rule
25 126 bis which allows two weeks for responses to motions.
Page 10568
1 I'm just checking with we agree on facts. I notice that the
2 Markac Defence, at a later stage, not objecting and joining the Gotovina
3 Defence was also filed after 7th of October.
4 Mr. Kehoe, I'm just trying to verify whether our understand of
5 the facts in this respect are correct and of course if there would be --
6 if would you like to make any oral submission as far as whether the
7 responses were filed in a timely way then of course we would take one or
8 two minutes for that.
9 MR. KEHOE: Well, Your Honour, I'm not sure of the actual dates I
10 know there has been many shifting of witnesses back and forth so if there
11 is any slippage of a day or so in our response certainly it is not
12 prejudicial to the Prosecution on this score in any fashion.
13 So on that level, we would ask the Trial Chamber to accept any of
14 the submissions to the Chamber as submitted.
15 Now, I will say that we have taken another step in this regard as
16 of yesterday. Initially we objected to this summary report that
17 Mr. Hayden is attempting to put in.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I called the attachment.
19 MR. KEHOE: Yes, and given Your Honours' comments yesterday
20 concerning specifically the areas of cross-examination challenging what
21 the witness possibly didn't see in that, and I just note in here that in
22 my motion of yesterday, Your Honour noted at transcript page 10474 --
23 excuse me, 10,480 at line 25 to 481 at line 1 and 2:
24 "This Court is more interested in what each particular witness
25 has observed outside of the influence of other evidence that other
Page 10569
1 witnesses have provided at least in the first instances."
2 Now, given that guidance ever yesterday one only need to look at
3 two items, again the attachment but also the two statements given by
4 Mr. Hayden. And virtually all of that as can you see by the attachment
5 where we have excluded -- I wouldn't say all of it, quite a bit of that,
6 is simply a rehashing of what over people have told Mr. Hayden.
7 Now, we have a very interesting point on that score. And I only
8 need address Mr. Hayden's recitation of Lieutenant-Colonel Hjertnes. We
9 have Lieutenant-Colonel Hjertnes, the author of the provisional
10 assessment and the final assessment on the shelling, who the Prosecution
11 initially had on their witness list, who was taken off the witness list
12 and now through Mr. Hayden is attempting to introduce testimony or
13 comments by Colonel Hjertnes through Mr. Hayden without calling the
14 Colonel Hjertnes.
15 Now given the fact that the Court wants to hear what this witness
16 observed and not what he heard from other people or the rehashing from
17 other people, virtually all of the attachment and a large part of both of
18 his statements are simply that. Simply a rehashing in a different form
19 of what other witnesses have told Mr. Hayden.
20 And if Your Honour's guidance of yesterday has any bearing on
21 this, it clear precludes the entry into evidence of the vast majority of
22 what Mr. Hayden wrote in his statements and I take it his testimony as
23 well.
24 I mean, absent that, Judge, then I will be putting to Mr. Hayden
25 everything that he doesn't know. His categorical statements about the
Page 10570
1 evacuation, statement -- do you know about this, do you know about this,
2 do you know about this before rendering an opinion that the evacuation
3 order was of no consequence? That's where we're going with this cross
4 because that is the only way we're going to be able to meet what he has
5 in these statements which is fine but it is certainly counter to what
6 Your Honour talking to me about yesterday.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, whether my comments are put in the right
8 context is still to be seen. The Chamber will consider the matters you
9 have raised.
10 We'll have -- Mr. Tieger before I say that we have an early break
11 you're own your feet, you're even in the courtroom, which I had not
12 noticed.
13 MR. KEHOE: It's like the return of the Maji, Judge.
14 MR. TIEGER: Pleased to be here, Your Honour, and I won't exploit
15 my presence as a basis for making unnecessary comments. It seemed like
16 the Court wanted to consider the context of yesterday's events in terms
17 of the representations made today, and the motion I'll leave it to the
18 Court. If there are any additional questions I will be happy to address
19 them after the break. I did have some comments in response to what
20 Mr. Kehoe said but perhaps it is best if the Court reflects and determine
21 whether or not any observations from the Prosecution are necessary.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would it not be better to hear it now, so that we
23 can use the break to consider the matter and we have recent filings on
24 the matter; and therefore, rather than to wait until after the break and
25 then to have to further deliberate on the matter.
Page 10571
1 MR. TIEGER: First of all as the Court observed we have very
2 recent filings on the matter, which are significantly different from what
3 was filed earlier. In addition, the Prosecution's recollection of the
4 procedural history of the original objections is -- conforms with that of
5 the Court.
6 It is not correct to suggest that yesterday marked some sea
7 change in the approach to matters before this Court or some additional
8 guidance by the Chamber which was not known at the sometime these
9 submissions were originally made.
10 First of all what has been what Mr. Kehoe referred to as the
11 chamber's guidance, I noted were instead a comment by Mr. Russo in
12 respect of the nature of the cross-examination. I think this is an
13 inaccurate attempt to characterize a comment by Mr. Russo about the
14 cross-examination that was taking place yesterday, in which it is very
15 clear from the context that he meant to say what the Court is interested
16 in is what each individual witness has to offer the Court, not in the
17 witness's reaction to the attempt by a party to educate him in court
18 about what he doesn't know.
19 That was the context of the discussion yesterday. And the use of
20 the term "observed" was not meant by Mr. Russo and certainly wasn't
21 guidance by the Court suggesting that the conventional approach to
22 evidential matters before this Court is suddenly being abandoned, and we
23 all know that hearsay is admissible in this institution for various
24 reasons. There was no change in yesterday's proceeding except to the
25 extent that the Court and parties were focussed on the parties between
Page 10572
1 genuine examination in an effort to explore the basis for a witness's
2 opinion or to explore his credibility versus an attempt to use the
3 witness as a platform for argument, and that's all that happened
4 yesterday.
5 Final, with respect to -- to any comments about Mr. Hjertnes it
6 is very clear that Mr. Hjertnes' observations have played a role in this
7 case and have been discussed in this case over and over and over again,
8 to the -- whether or not the Defence will call Mr. Hjertnes or the Court
9 will call Mr. Hjertnes or no one will choose to call Mr. Hjertnes much of
10 his information is before the Court, and it is perfectly appropriate and
11 highly appropriate for the Court hear information that bears on that
12 previous evidence.
13 And finally with respect to an issue that wasn't not addressed
14 although seems to be part of the motion there is, I think, clearly ample
15 and far more than adequate foundation for this report, which was part of
16 the regular procedure prepared in the normal course of business by people
17 who had been exchange in this process before and after and for which the
18 witness was directly involved. This is not a random document that has
19 been produced without understanding of its provenance and foundation.
20 That is all, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, may I be brief.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MISETIC: Because there are some issues that needed to be
24 address the I think good opportunity for the Court to give us guidance
25 not just for this witness but for the rest of the trial.
Page 10573
1 First with respect to the specific reference to Mr. Hjertnes, I
2 think there is a distinction between the situation where a witness has
3 come up in the course of the trial and a situation where a witness was on
4 the Prosecution's witness list and taken off and then testimony is being
5 introduced, hearsay testimony, of that witness's events. This was a
6 decision made by the Prosecution.
7 The fact that he may be called by the Defence or he may be called
8 by the Bench is irrelevant because as the Court is well aware the
9 Prosecution has the burden of proof. They cannot -- they have to meet
10 their standards and survive a Rule 98 motion at the end of their case in
11 chief, and they shouldn't be allowed to circumvent calling a witness for
12 whatever reason that was done and then to essentially have another
13 witness testify about that witness's testimony that they may think is
14 favourable to believe them.
15 With respect to the more general need, I think, for the parties
16 to obtain some guidance there, there are two issues here. One is in
17 light of what transpired yesterday. The fact is that witnesses as such
18 as Mr. Hayden coming now are providing to a great extent, there are some
19 personal observations, but to a great extent are providing hearsay
20 testimony to the Chamber in any many circumstances hearsay testimony that
21 is not sourced.
22 Either it's our position that that testimony should be excluded
23 or the fact of the matter is the only way that the defendant under
24 Article 21 can challenge such testimony often times is to put other
25 hearsay testimony to that witness in cross-examination which is what
Page 10574
1 happened yesterday, and what ultimately will happen is the Defence is
2 putting matters to a witness that he has no personal knowledge of that
3 flows from the fact that the witness is testifying about matters of which
4 he has no personal knowledge.
5 So we have a situation there where we need guidance from the
6 Court or at least with respect to witnesses that are there providing
7 extensive hearsay testimony some understanding of the position of the
8 Defence that we can't challenge his personal knowledge given that he has
9 very little personal knowledge.
10 The third issue is one that arose today which is this issue again
11 moving toward the future and some guidance from the Chamber. There was
12 an objection by Mr. Russo saying that the witness should -- it's unfair
13 to the witness not to put his statement to him in cross-examination, so
14 he can refer to what he said to the OTP as he is answering questions to
15 the Defence. I rise it my feet because as the Court will recall last
16 Thursday we had a situation where an OTP witness had given a statement to
17 the Defence which in proofing, of course, wasn't shown to that witness as
18 he was being proofed, and we have a statement in evidence that was taken
19 from that witness during the course of his proofing which was taken
20 without the benefit of the OTP showing him the statement that the OTP had
21 in its possession prior to taking the statement.
22 So, from our position, there seems to be some inconsistency in
23 what a witness should or should not be shown. Our position is that we
24 would like some guidance from the Chamber on this process, I think I
25 won't take the Court's time right now; but if we wish to explore it
Page 10575
1 further I think there are some distinctions that need to be made between
2 what the OTP what obligations it has in proofing a witness who is going
3 make attestations under Rule 92 ter and being given the benefit of
4 showing all statements in the possession of the OTP before he is asked to
5 make Rule 92 ter attestations. And also to point out, that in
6 cross-examination I would just ask the Court to keep in mind and all
7 Defence team talked about this during the last break.
8 The fact that a witness on direct can follow what he said in a
9 statement, is of course beneficial to the Prosecution. From the Defence
10 side, we would like to challenge whether he can follow his own testimony
11 without making reference to something on paper, and we think there is
12 beneficial value to being able to see whether the witness on the stand,
13 sitting in the chair has any independent ability to give the Trial
14 Chamber testimony other than what appears on the paper in front of him,
15 so from that perspective we think that there shouldn't be an obligation
16 to necessarily make line and page reference to the witness statement. We
17 all know that the witness can read his own statement; and therefore, our
18 position would that there should be some testing of witness's in
19 cross-examination and indeed that's the very purpose of
20 cross-examination.
21 Thank you, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Misetic.
23 Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: 60 second, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. You filed a motion in which you sought
Page 10576
1 admission of 92 ter statement with an attachment. We received your
2 responses, or not but at least responses were filed, let's say it this
3 way. You were given now a multiple responses were filed. Last one
4 yesterday evening. You had an opportunity to respond to that. Now I
5 gave an additional opportunity, I gave it to Mr. Misetic; but I would
6 give it to Mr. Kay and Mr. Kuzmanovic as well. I wonder whether this
7 should not conclude the deliberations on the -- the exchange of views and
8 the submissions on the matter.
9 Because if I give you an opportunity then of course I would have
10 to give an opportunity again to Defence as well. It's -- the initiative
11 was OTP initiative.
12 MR. TIEGER: Okay I'm just checking to see the extent to which
13 Mr. Misetic' comments were embraced by the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: As you'd say if he introduced something knew. That
15 was about guidance but that is matter on which we do not have immediately
16 to decide in every respect.
17 Mr. Misetic, I did not understand your submissions to say well,
18 please give us the guidance right away on all these matters is that --
19 MR. MISETIC: That's correct, Your Honour.
20 MR. TIEGER: I hear the Court, Your Honour. I yield.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Then we will have a break and resume at five minutes to 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber took a bit more time and apologises for
Page 10577
1 any waiting.
2 As far as the 92 ter statements of Mr. Hayden are concerned, the
3 Chamber first would like to verify with - I think it was with you,
4 Mr. Misetic - in relation to the Hjertnes references. We found them in
5 the first statement - let me just find my notes on that - the 1995
6 statement, we find found them on page 2; and in the 2004 statement, we
7 found them in paragraph 7 and paragraph 26.
8 It was today that specifically Hjertnes was mentioned, and the
9 Chamber considers Hjertnes case as a hearsay source of a bit different
10 character than the general hearsay issues.
11 Have we missed anything?
12 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Your Honour, I just briefly looked at it,
13 and I believe we're talking about 65 ter 5498 which is the 1996 document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. KEHOE: And much of the two documents, Your Honour, are
16 reformulations of each other; and I know in the 2004 document, it is in
17 paragraph 7. There's also a reference to it again on the 2007 [sic]
18 document in paragraph 26.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For 1996, I've got it op page 2; and for the
20 2004, paragraph 7 and paragraph 26. Did we miss anything, because our
21 attention, of course, was not focussed on that any earlier.
22 MR. KEHOE: I do believe those are the two reports. It is also
23 in several instances in the report itself, the 25 August 1995 Helsinki
24 Report --
25 JUDGE ORIE: With specific reference to Mr. Hjertnes as a source?
Page 10578
1 MR. KEHOE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll further look at that. The Chamber will
3 give the reasons for the decision I now give at a later stage because we
4 want to write it down carefully so that you have all the information
5 which led the Chamber to decide.
6 As far as the 92 ter statements are concerned, the two statements
7 are admitted into evidence, but the specific references to
8 Lieutenant-Colonel Hjertnes, as we found them until now, on page 2 of the
9 1996 statement; that is, in paragraph 2 on page 2, starting with the
10 Lieutenant-Colonel Hjertnes also believed, up to and including,
11 administrative centre of the rebel Republic of Serbian Krajina.
12 Then in the 2004 statement, paragraph 7, in its entirety, is not
13 admitted into evidence. Paragraph 26, the reference to
14 Lieutenant-Colonel Steinar Hjertnes, and we find that approximately in
15 the middle of this paragraph, on page 7: "Further, Lieutenant-Colonel
16 Steinar Hjertnes told us that General Cermak was the military commander
17 for the Knin area," is taken out at well.
18 We will further review, then, the report where specific reference
19 is made to Mr. Hjertnes as the source of the evidence.
20 Apart from that, the 92 ter statements and the attachment are
21 admitted into evidence. I immediately add to that, and that might not
22 come as something new to the parties, that of course to the extent, and
23 we find it here and there, to the extent opinions and conclusions are
24 part of the statement without a proper factual basis be provided, the
25 Chamber, of course, will not be in a position just to adopt it, adopt
Page 10579
1 them as being true. This is not to say that always all the factual basis
2 for an opinion or a judgement should always be found specifically to be
3 given by this same witness.
4 The Chamber looks at the entirety of the evidence, but is not
5 inclined and cannot adopt conclusions just because there were presented
6 by witnesses.
7 The Chamber will always verify whether the factual basis of the
8 evidence allows the Chamber to adopt or join in the conclusions of a
9 witness, because it is not the conclusions of the witness, but it is
10 finally the conclusions of the Chamber that count.
11 Therefore, it may be clear to the Prosecution that where
12 unsourced or undocumented or unsupported opinions or conclusions are
13 presented, that it's certainly worthwhile to see whether there is any
14 factual basis for that.
15 Then, is there any other matter?
16 MR. KEHOE: If I just may, for guidance, Your Honour, in the
17 Helsinki Report, 65 ter 796, if we could turn to page 9, and it's 5.4.6.
18 That's 65 ter 769, excuse me. Page 9 of the report is a conversation
19 with Lieutenant-Colonel Steinar Hjertnes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is a specific reference. As I said
21 before, our attention was not focussed on Hjertnes any earlier, but that
22 would be a portion which whether we redact that or whether we say we'll
23 will ignore it, but we have to review the whole of the report on specific
24 references to the source.
25 MR. KEHOE: I just knew from reviewing it that there had been a
Page 10580
1 reference to it, but I just wanted to bring the Chamber's attention to
2 it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
4 Is the ruling clear?
5 MR. TIEGER: I think it's clear, Your Honour. I have just one
6 question in connection with that, should Mr. Hjertnes appear in this
7 court. First of all, I obviously can't entirely anticipate the basis for
8 the Court's ruling, but it does occur to me that the rationale might not
9 apply, if he were to appear, and there was an interest in this --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I should have added, as a matter of fact, what I had
11 on paper, that at this stage of the proceedings, this is what we want,
12 and that may anticipate what you're asking, that if Mr. Hjertnes comes,
13 then of course either we could ask him whether this is what he said or
14 what he found, or, et cetera; or then to say there's no reason to redact
15 the statements in this respect.
16 The situation be might be different.
17 MR. TIEGER: Correct. And then I just wonder about the extent to
18 which that might implicate the interest in cross-examining this witness
19 on that subject, and recalling the witness would be difficult in that
20 context. So I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that point. At the same time, the
22 direct references to Hjertnes are limited. We will consider whether it
23 could be a solution, but then we'd certainly seek also the oral
24 submissions of the parties to, say, deal with it in cross-examination.
25 We'll ignore everything if Hjertnes will not appear, so the
Page 10581
1 cross-examination to be superfluous and without basis, but we have to
2 consider whether that would be a solution.
3 MR. TIEGER: Yeah. I would say, Your Honour, it would sort of
4 the equivalent of the MFI
5 MR. KEHOE: Well, I do object to that, Your Honour, given the
6 scenario we have outlined, i.e., if the Prosecution wanted
7 Lieutenant-Colonel Hjertnes as a witness, he could have testified.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see. When it comes to that, we'll see, and of
9 course whether you will cross-examine. If I look at one of the portions,
10 for example, that Mr. Hjertnes said what the position of Mr. Cermak was,
11 I don't know whether there's a lot to be cross-examined on that matter,
12 which is apparently now taken out, which is an issue which has been dealt
13 with thoroughly and with many witnesses.
14 So there would be any need at this moment to cross-examine the
15 present witness on that issue, I don't see the point in that, as a matter
16 of fact.
17 MR. KAY: No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, let's not, from a theoretical point
19 of view, see what we would do "if." We'll consider it.
20 Cross-examination will certainly not start today, so, therefore, we have
21 some time to think about it. But it's already on the record now that
22 this very cautiously introduced suggestion meets objections from the
23 Prosecution.
24 Then the guidance you asked for, the Chamber will work on that
25 and see to what extent we can give that guidance, but, rather, not do it
Page 10582
1 after having thought it over for five or ten minutes, but, rather, after
2 thorough consideration.
3 Madam Usher, could you escort the witness into the courtroom.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, perhaps you could also consider to what
5 extent if Mr. Hjertnes would be ever called, whether these issues where
6 his name is specifically mentioned, whether that should be dealt with in
7 the context of this witness's testimony or whether it could be separated
8 and that you just asked Mr. Hjertnes about it, if he would ever appear as
9 a witness, and then Mr. Hjertnes being cross-examined.
10 Whether there is any need to cross cross-examination this witness
11 on hearsay evidence he received from Mr. Hjertnes, but just please think
12 it over.
13 MR. TIEGER: I will consider it, Your Honour. I was going to
14 respond, but I think it is better done outside the presence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Hayden.
18 Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure
19 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak
20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing butt truth.
21 The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. I would like
22 to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
24 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hayden. Please be seated.
Page 10583
1 MR. DU-TOIT: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hayden, you will first be examined by
3 Mr. Du-Toit who is counsel for the Prosecution.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. DU-TOIT: Thank you.
6 WITNESS: WILLIAM CURTIS HAYDEN
7 Examination by Mr. Du-Toit:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hayden.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. Can you please state your full name for the record.
11 A. William Curtis Hayden.
12 MR. DU-TOIT: And, Madam Registrar, can we please call up 65
13 ter 05498, please.
14 Q. Mr. Hayden, is it correct that on the 15th of May, 1996, you
15 prepared a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor? Is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Now, in front of you on the screen, you will see the front page
18 of this statement. Is this the statement that you made and signed at the
19 bottom that you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 15th of
20 May, 1996?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Is it also correct that on the 15th of March, 2004
23 you made another statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?
24 MR. DU-TOIT: Madam Registrar, can we please call up 65
25 ter 05499, please.
Page 10584
1 Q. Mr. Hayden, the statement now in front of you on the screen, is
2 that the statement that you made on the 15th of March, 2004?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. DU-TOIT: Can we maybe move to paragraph 5 of the statement.
5 It's on page 2 of the statement, please, at the bottom.
6 Q. Mr. Hayden, the last three lines reads as follows:
7 "The facts of this report," and I quote, "are based on rough
8 notes prepared by myself along with other members of the fact-finding
9 mission, named above, during this mission. I do not have the rough notes
10 with me now, but they may be available at home. I will make a search for
11 them on my return and have copies of them transmitted to the OTP when I
12 find them."
13 Is that what you said?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you able to find copies of these note that the you made
16 subsequently?
17 A. No. The notes were destroyed when my parents' basement flooded.
18 Q. When did that happen?
19 A. That happened in 2003.
20 Q. When did you become aware of that?
21 A. After I returned from making the statement to the Office of the
22 Prosecutor, I called my parents, and that's when I learned that the
23 materials that I had stored in their basement had been damaged and/or
24 destroyed by flooding.
25 MR. DU-TOIT: If we just move to paragraph 9 of your statement,
Page 10585
1 page 4, please. Next page, please.
2 Q. You will see on page 4 about five lines from the top, you make
3 mention, and I quote: "Apart from the UN personnel were confined to
4 various components in the area between 5 and 8 May."
5 Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is May, in fact, the correct date?
8 A. No, it's not, actually. That would be 5 and 8 August. Sorry.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Hayden, is it correct that when you arrived at the
10 Office of the Prosecutor yesterday, you were given again the opportunity
11 to read through the two statements that I just mentioned to you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Except for the amendments that you made and additional
14 information that you provided today, is there anything else that you
15 wanted to inform the Court about that's not correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, do the two statements accurately reflect what you told the
18 Office of the Prosecutor on these two incidents -- on two dates?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And are they, true to the best of your knowledge?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And when you -- if you'd been asked to -- the same questions that
23 you have been asked during these interviews, would your answers be the
24 same as you'd given on these two occasions?
25 A. Yes.
Page 10586
1 MR. DU-TOIT: Your Honour, I would like to move the two
2 statements into evidence, please, subject to the caveat that the Judge
3 expressed, you know, in the beginning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll ask Madam Registrar to assign numbers to
5 them. The decision of the Chamber is clear, but a final admission will
6 be made once the redacted versions will have been uploaded, which the
7 Chamber expects you to do today, Mr. Du-Toit.
8 MR. DU-TOIT: Yeah.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, first, the 1996 statement of the
10 witness.
11 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 05498 will become Exhibit P986, Your
12 Honours; and 2004 statement, 65 ter 05499, will become Exhibit P987, Your
13 Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So for the time being, P986 and P987 will
15 marked for identification, and the decision on admission is clear already
16 to the parties on the basis of what I said earlier.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Du-Toit.
18 MR. DU-TOIT:
19 Q. Mr. Hayden, before we move to the report that you prepared, in
20 your two witness statements and also in the report, did you try to inform
21 the reader of information that you personally observed and also
22 information that you received as a result of discussions or other aspects
23 that you had with other witnesses that you mention in your report?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. DU-TOIT: Madam Registrar, may have I on the screen
Page 10587
1 Exhibit -- 65 ter 00769, please.
2 Q. Mr. Hayden, in front of you is now a report, and I quote:
3 "Report to the OSCE, The International Helsinki Federation for Human
4 Rights, Fact-finding Mission
5 correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it also appears from the front page of this document that
8 this document was dated the 25th of August, 1995, in Vienna, in Austria
9 Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, can you please in your own words describe to the Court what
12 procedure did you follow in preparing this report that is now in front of
13 you.
14 A. Typically, a report drafted following a fact-finding mission
15 would be initially based on reports in the media or reports from member
16 committees of the OSCE -- excuse me, member committees of the
17 International Helsinki Federation, regarding human rights abuses that
18 would be of interest.
19 The IHF would then decide to send a fact-finding mission,
20 typically comprised of members of the IHF and members of the national
21 committee of the state in which the human rights abuses were taking
22 place.
23 Once in the field, the mission members would work collaboratively
24 in setting up interviews with persons of interest, conduct those
25 interviews, obtain any documentary evidence or materials that would be of
Page 10588
1 use in preparing the report. The members would work together over their
2 notes, share information, clarify or correct; then the notes would be
3 brought together with any other information, and the report would be
4 drafted, typically by a single person; then the report would be shared
5 with the other members.
6 There would be a review of the document; changes, corrections, or
7 additions made to the report; a final draft would be reviewed by the
8 executive director and legal counsel, before a review by the executive
9 committee, which would then make a decision on its release as a public
10 document.
11 Q. Now, you mentioned IHF. Can you perhaps tell what you say that
12 stands for?
13 A. The IHF stands for the International Helsinki Federation for
14 Human Rights, a non-governmental organisation based in Vienna, Austria
15 which functioned as the watch dog of the OSCE, the Organisation for
16 Security and Cooperation in Europe
17 the various national committees that existed in the countries that are
18 members to the OSCE.
19 Q. Now, from your witness statement, it is clear that you were the
20 drafter of this report. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, the procedure that you discussed in your evidence so far,
23 was that, in fact, also followed with regard to this report?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the members of the mission that accompanied you --
Page 10589
1 MR. DU-TOIT: If we can maybe just move to page 2 of the report,
2 please, and if we go to footnote 1 at the bottom, please.
3 Q. The footnote at the bottom identifies the persons that were part
4 of this mission. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in the report and also in your statement, you sometimes
7 refer to the mission or mission members accompanied or visited this.
8 What do you mean by when you use the word sort of "mission members"? How
9 did you sort of utilize that word in the report?
10 A. Mission
11 individuals noted in footnote 1.
12 Q. Now, if we can go specifically to certain parts of your report,
13 and if I can maybe, firstly, take you to - just a moment - to page 8,
14 paragraph 5.2, and the B/C/S is on page 7.
15 Now, it is clear from paragraph 5.2 of the report that you had a
16 meeting with General Cermak on the 19th of August, 1995, at 1430. Is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And if we can move to paragraph 5.2.2, it is clear from the
20 report that you also sometimes, not just there but also in other aspects,
21 you use certain words in inverted commas, like done here, stating that:
22 "There are probably 200 to 300 bodies in the hills with bullet wounds in
23 their heads."
24 Now, what procedure did you follow when you put these type of
25 quotations in inverted commas, or what question infer from that when you
Page 10590
1 do that in the report?
2 A. The use of commas around text in the report indicates a direct
3 quotation from the person being interviewed.
4 Q. Did make a note yourself about that when the person provided you
5 with that information?
6 A. Yes, and the other mission members who were present for that
7 interview.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Hayden, you also, subsequent to the meeting that you had
9 with Mr. Cermak on the 19th of August, you also visited the Knin cemetery
10 at around 1530 that day.
11 MR. DU-TOIT: And if we can move to paragraph 4.1 on page 7 of
12 your report.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Du-Toit, I do not know how much time you are
14 going to spend on what appears to be a new subject.
15 MR. DU-TOIT: Yeah. I think it is an appropriate time.
16 JUDGE ORIE: An appropriate time.
17 MR. DU-TOIT: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hayden, you were only a short time with us
19 today, but we have become desperate, because we would like to see you
20 back tomorrow at 9.00 in this same courtroom.
21 I would first like to instruct you that you should not speak with
22 anyone about your testimony, whether already given today or still to be
23 given in the following days.
24 We adjourn for the day and we'll resume tomorrow, the 15th of
25 October, at 9.00, in this same courtroom.
Page 10591
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of
3 October, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.
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