Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11694

 1                           Thursday, 13 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             I see that both Mr. Hedaraly and Mr. Russo are present.

12             Mr. Hedaraly, are you here in relation with the Witness 3 issue

13     and the photospread?

14             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour, I'm here for the examination?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No, I wasn't aware that, but at least you're here

16     anyhow, so we might find a moment and abuse your presence to have the

17     matter further discussed.

18             I inform the parties that there is a swearing-in ceremony today

19     at 1.30, so we have to stop early.  It is my understanding that the

20     swearing-in ceremony takes place in this courtroom, which also might mean

21     we may even have to stop not at 1.29 but even earlier, in order to have

22     the courtroom ready for the swearing-in ceremony.

23             Then, Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to call your next witness?

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Prosecution would like to

25     call Witness 40, Mr. Kosta Novakovic.

Page 11695

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is aware that the Gotovina Defence

 3     opposes the admission into evidence of, let me say it briefly, the map

 4     and the description given by this witness on how Operation Storm

 5     developed militarily.

 6             Mr. Hedaraly, you're invited to explore with the witness sources

 7     of what he knows and how he knows.  We'll then, after that, decide

 8     whether these two documents are fit to be admitted into evidence or

 9     whether it is a kind of reconstruction which should be done primarily by

10     the Chamber rather than by the witness himself.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  That's fine Your Honour.  Just one comment on the

12     objections.  From the Prosecution's viewpoint, it is a little odd that

13     the Gotovina Defence produces maps from their trial team; whereas, maps

14     that are produced by the witness are being objected to.

15             I will explore the matter with the witness.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course, perhaps your team could prepare

17     maps as well, isn't it?

18             Mr. Misetic.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, if I can just comment.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The witness is there.

21             MR. MISETIC:  Just it will be briefly.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I would rather first say --

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll give you an opportunity to finish.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 11696

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Novakovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, before you give evidence in this

 4     court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require that you make a solemn

 5     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

 6     but the truth.  The text is now handed out to you.  May I invite you to

 7     make that solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  KOSTA NOVAKOVIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.  Please be seated.

13             Mr. Novakovic, before we start with your examination, there was

14     another matter which was just discussed and which needs another 30

15     seconds to be dealt with, if could you have some patience.

16             Mr. Misetic.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Just so our position is clear, Your Honour, we of

18     course have no problems with the Prosecution putting in maps.  However, I

19     would point out that the Prosecution never misses an opportunity when we

20     put in a map to ask for the underlying documents from which we put the

21     map together, and I don't think the Prosecution thus far has allowed to

22     us say, One of our people thinks this is the way it was, so we can tender

23     the map into evidence.

24             Similarly, all we're asking for with this witness is to explore

25     how he knows, on what basis; and if you knows and has some foundation for

Page 11697

 1     it, of course then --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it that you have understood that this is the

 3     kind of exercise the Chamber invited Mr. Hedaraly to make.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6             Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, you will first be examined by

 9     Mr. Hedaraly, and Mr. Hedaraly is counsel for the Prosecution.

10                           Examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

11        Q.   Good morning.  Could you please state your full name for the

12     record.

13        A.   I'm Kosta Novakovic.

14        Q.   And, for the record, could you please also state your date and

15     place of birth?

16        A.   6 December 1949, Bijeljina village, Benkovac municipality.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  And, Mr.  Registrar, if we could have 65 ter 6026

18     on the screen, please.

19        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, do you recall providing a witness statement to the

20     Office of the Prosecutor in February and April 2001?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   And is that the statement we see on the screen right now; and if

23     we go to the bottom, can we see your signature?

24        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we now could have 65 ter 6027, please, on

Page 11698

 1     the screen.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Novakovic, do you recall providing another witness

 3     statement to the Office of the Prosecutor in March of 2007?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   And is that the statement that we see on the screen right now,

 6     with your signature at the bottom?

 7        A.   Yes, this is my signature, too.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  And, finally, if we could have 65 ter 6028.

 9        Q.   And I want to ask you the same question.  Do you recall providing

10     a supplemental witness statement to the Office of the Prosecutor last

11     month, on 2 and 3 October 2008?

12        A.   Yes, that's correct.

13        Q.   And is that the statement that we see on the screen now?

14        A.   Yes, that is the statement.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, if I could provide a hard copy of the

16     statements to the witness in his own language.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, if we can the -- first, let me ask you:  Did

20     you have a chance to review these three statements before today?

21        A.   Yes.  You showed them to me in the OTP.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we go to the third statement, which at

23     tab 3.

24        Q.   If you could go to paragraph 12, the third sentence --

25             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm going to wait for it appear on the screen for

Page 11699

 1     the Judges.  That would be page 3 of the document that is on the screen

 2     right now.

 3        Q.   The third sentence in paragraph 12 says:  "This personnel," we're

 4     talking about the personnel in the Senjak barracks, "did include any

 5     fighting soldiers."

 6             Can you clarify whether you meant that this personnel did include

 7     fighting soldiers or whether this personnel did not include any fighting

 8     soldiers?

 9        A.   What is true is that there were no fighting soldiers, combatants

10     among the men.

11        Q.   In the Senjak barracks?

12        A.   Yes, in the Senjak barracks.

13        Q.   And in paragraph 13, you have also noticed a translation issue.

14     The first line of paragraph 13 in English talks about a storage building

15     in the southern barracks; and in the B/C/S translation, it says the

16     northern barracks.

17             Can you tell the Court which one is accurate?

18        A.   It should read southern barracks.  It's obviously a typo.

19        Q.   Now, apart from these corrections, do these three statements that

20     you reviewed accurately reflect what you said to the Office of the

21     Prosecutor in the course of those interviews?

22        A.   I believe they do.

23        Q.   And are the contents of the statements that you reviewed and that

24     you signed true, to the best of your knowledge and recollection?

25        A.   I believe that they are.

Page 11700

 1        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today that you were

 2     asked in those interviews, would you give the same answers?

 3        A.   Well, for the most part, yes, the same.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, at this time, I would like to have

 5     65 ter 6026, 65 ter 6027, and 65 ter 6028 admitted into evidence pursuant

 6     to Rule 92 ter.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand that there are no objections against

 8     admission of the 92 ter statements.

 9             Mr. Registrar, 6026?

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 6026 becomes Exhibit number P1092;

11     6027 becomes Exhibit number P1093; and 6028 becomes Exhibit number 1094.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  P1092 up to and including P1094 are admitted into

13     evidence.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Can I also have admitted into evidence 65 ter

16     6030, which is the attachment to the 2008 statement, the photo of Knin

17     that was marked by the witness in his October 2008 interview.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  I did understand that there are objections against

19     the other attachments, but not against this one.

20             Mr. Registrar.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit P1095.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  P1095 is admitted into evidence.

23             Please proceed.

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

25             Mr. Registrar, could with he have 65 ter number 6029 on the

Page 11701

 1     screen.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Novakovic, what will come up on the screen is the map

 3     that you had provided the Office of the Prosecutor in March 2007 with the

 4     various locations of the -- of the Croatian and the army of the RSK

 5     troops.

 6             Now, can I ask you:  What sources did you use to -- first of all,

 7     let me ask you:  Did you prepare this map yourself?

 8        A.   Yes, I prepared it myself.

 9        Q.   What sources did you use to include the information that we find

10     on this map?

11        A.   Let me state, first of all, that I made this map for the purpose

12     of a book I had been working on for ten years now, which portrays the

13     Croatian-Serbian relations.

14             I prepared the map through the use of several methods.  I

15     primarily used the sources of the Serbian army of the Krajina, when I was

16     stating the disposition of the Serbian army soldiers which is marked in

17     red here.  As far as the units of the Croatian army and the Croatian

18     Defence Council are concerned, I used several sources.  One of the

19     sources was General Janko Bobetko's book, "All My Battles."  I used the

20     sources of General Spegelj, and of a gentleman, Mr. Baric, who wrote a

21     doctoral thesis on the subject matter.

22             I use some other sources, the Croatian press, and other

23     intelligence sources I had at my disposal.  I also used the sources for

24     the sources for the 5th Muslim Corps marked in green on the map, also by

25     drawing upon the sources that I mentioned.  I used at least a dozen

Page 11702

 1     sources in all.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we could 65 ter 4685 which is a text that,

 3     according to your statement, corresponds to the map.

 4        Q.   Was that also prepared using the same sources you've just

 5     described?

 6        A.   Yes, absolutely.  I used the same methods there as well.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, at this time, I would like to have 65

 8     ter 6029 and 4685 admitted into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps, I would first ask some additional

10     questions in relation to this.

11             Mr. Novakovic, you said you used many sources.  Did any of these

12     sources ever contradict another source?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the most part, no, the sources

14     concerning the Serbian army of the Krajina was something that I was quite

15     familiar, and I was in touch with a lot of the people responsible for

16     these units, i.e., their commanders.  I also had personal knowledge since

17     I was a member of the Main Staff.

18             As far as the Croatian sources are concerned, I also consulted

19     several books, written sources.  For the most part, the information came

20     from the book, the press, and documents.  Though, I would say that

21     General Janko Bobetko's book contained it all; and if you went through

22     the book, you could clearly follow where the units were.  These were the

23     indicators that I used.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, this Chamber has not read Mr. Bobetko's

25     book.  Is there -- apparently, you rely on this book as being a truthful

Page 11703

 1     account of what happened.  Did you ever find anything in that book on

 2     which you'd say, "Well, it contradicts other sources"?  Because I asked

 3     you specifically on whether there was any contradiction anywhere, and you

 4     said, "Well, mostly not."

 5             But could you give an example of where the sources do contradict

 6     each other?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there were such cases

 8     when it came to political and other positions.  As far as the units

 9     themselves were concerned, there was no contradiction, or almost none.

10     The units were correctly portrayed.  After all, from intelligence and

11     other sources, one knew what sort of units there were.  Just as the

12     Croats knew which units we had, we knew which units they had.  We knew

13     their composition pretty well.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it is not just about the existence of

15     units, but also where they were located, and, to some extent, also how

16     they moved.  But, again, you said:  "As far as the units themselves,

17     there was no contradiction, or almost none."  Could you give us an

18     example on where you found that rare contradiction.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that there could be

20     contradiction over political and other issues, issues that were not of a

21     purely military nature.  I did not go into such cases in great detail.

22     For the purposes of my book, I felt the indicators were sufficient in

23     order for me to conclude which tactical axes, which particular unit could

24     have acted along, and which axes were covered by which particular unit.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But you said in your previous answer:  "As far

Page 11704

 1     as the units themselves were concerned," so that is apart from the

 2     political positions, "there was no contradiction, or almost none."

 3             And I'm exploring with you where you ever found a contradiction,

 4     because I want to know what you did when you found such a contradiction.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in such cases, I would

 6     consult other sources.  I crossed-referenced my sources in various ways.

 7     I had sources at my disposal through contact with different people, but

 8     this was not my primary concern in preparing the material.  I made a

 9     general overview portraying the situation as it was, the balance of

10     powers, and the units involved along the attack axes or our units along

11     defence lines.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But it may not have been your primary concern,

13     but it might be a concern of the Chamber.

14             Can you give us an example of such a contradiction, where you

15     said you had to further consult with other sources, where you

16     cross-referenced your sources in various ways.  Could you give us an

17     example on where you had to do that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't recall it specifically at

19     this time.  I used Mr. Bobetko's source as the primary one, then

20     Mr. Spegelj's, Mr. Baric's, and others.  And if the information contained

21     in several sources was consistent, I concluded it to be true, especially

22     if it made sense, if it was logical.  This was not my primary focus.  I

23     was engaged on quite a different type of business.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand that, that your focus when

25     you're writing a book is different from perhaps the focus this Chamber

Page 11705

 1     may have on hearing your testimony.

 2             Did you prepare a list of your sources?  Do you have a complete

 3     list?  Because I don't know whether you are including any footnotes in

 4     your book; but then I take it that, if so, reference will be made to your

 5     various sources.  Do you have a list of them?  Because your reference is

 6     refer general.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, the problem is

 8     that I haven't published a book.  I have the manuscript on a CD.  I have

 9     between 90 and 100 books and a great deal of footnotes.  My manuscript is

10     on a CD; and if Their Honours are interested, I'd like gladly produce it.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I don't think the whole of the manuscript, but

12     I'm mainly focussing on the sources.  Do you have a separate file in

13     which you list your sources that you used?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I do have a

15     chapter listing all the books and documents that I used.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have the CD with you here in The Hague?

17     Is there any way of providing it on a short notice?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I do.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Hedaraly, the last thing you did was to tender the two

21     documents into evidence.

22             Could I hear whether there are any objections or whether there

23     are any further wishes.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, yes.  Our request would be to see the

25     material of the witness if he has it present, primarily because my

Page 11706

 1     objection is that this witness does not have apparently personal

 2     knowledge of the matters that he has put on the card; and the sources,

 3     thus far, that underlie the map are still unclear to me.  Other than

 4     reference to one or could books, I will mention that, as far as I know,

 5     the specific authors he referenced were themselves not involved in

 6     Operation Storm.  Mr. Bobetko had been retired by that point.

 7             So I would like to check the sources so that can I cross-examine

 8     the witness, if necessary, and also to object to admission, if necessary,

 9     if it is just a recapitulation of other material.  And, finally, our

10     objection, just so the Trial Chamber understands, our objection is also

11     as to what's actually in the map.  For that reason, that's why I want to

12     get at where he is getting this information from.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Just very briefly, I understand the concern and

16     I'm more than happy that the Defence should have a chance to explore the

17     sources, but that should nod be a bar to the admissibility of the

18     document.  That would go to the weight of it.  And once he has the

19     sources, Mr. Misetic is entitled to cross-examine the witness on the

20     sources, but the foundation which was the objection is not a proper

21     objection at this stage, because the witness prepared it and he told us

22     what the foundation is.

23             Now, if Mr. Misetic disagrees with the foundation of it, it

24     becomes a weight issue, and he can ask question on it, but it doesn't bar

25     the admissibility of map at that point.

Page 11707

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, my position is that we don't know what

 2     the foundation is yet, because we haven't been produced what the

 3     footnotes are.  As to the book he mentioned, I think, ten sources, of

 4     which I think he identified two, maybe three, by name.  So we don't know

 5     the foundation of this is it, and on top of that, if it is just a

 6     recapitulation of other source material --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, of course.  It is apparently is mixed sources,

 8     including what he observed himself and other sources, and

 9     cross-referenced.

10             Let me just have one second.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the two documents you've tendered into

14     evidence, that's the map and the description, will be marked for

15     identification for the time being.

16             At the same time, Mr. Novakovic, with the assistance of the

17     Victims and Witness Section, you're invited to give your CD and perhaps

18     write down which are the relevant files on your CD, so that either the CD

19     in its entirety, or at least the file which contains a list of your

20     sources could be copied, could be made available to the parties so that

21     they can further orient themselves on what sources you used.

22             Therefore, a very practical question:  Do you have that CD with

23     you in this building?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  So, during the first break, would you be willing to

Page 11708

 1     hand that over?

 2             I take it that the parties will fully respect the copyright of

 3     this witness, so even if he would give the text, that this is just

 4     limited for the purposes of this trial and, of course, of it's work

 5     product, which, I would say, deserves to be protected even if he would

 6     give it to the parties for these limited purposes.

 7             Then the Victims and Witness Section, during the first break,

 8     will get in touch with you, and if you'd write down for them what the

 9     relevant files on the CD are.  You know now that with we're not seeking

10     to have access to what you wrote, but mainly we're interested in knowing

11     what sources you used when producing the map and when producing the

12     document, deployment of Serbian Krajina sources shortly before Croatian

13     aggression, as you gave it as its title.

14             Would you be willing to assist us in this way?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.  If I may, I'd just

16     like to add something.

17             Perhaps I did not put it sufficiently explicitly when I was

18     talking about it, when I said that I knew the disposition of our forces.

19     Since I was assistant commander in the staff, and although I was not

20     engaged in operational matters but, rather, I dealt with religious and

21     morale affairs, I, as a person from the staff, knew what the disposition

22     of the Croatian forces and their names were.  The operational and

23     intelligence organs were in possession of such data.  That was not

24     unknown to them.  I merely double-checked that with the other sources,

25     i.e., the books.  There were no deviations from the original indicators I

Page 11709

 1     possessed.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You say, in your capacity as assistant

 3     commander in the staff, you had intelligence information from the units

 4     of the opposing party in the conflict.  Is that correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             Thank you for this explanation.  You're invited to cooperate with

 8     the Victims and Witness Section so that, finally, the relevant files are

 9     copied and are put in the hands of the registry, who will then make it

10     available to the parties.

11             Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.

12             We first have to assign numbers to them.

13             First, the map, Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 6029 becomes Exhibit

15     number P1096, marked for identification; and 65 ter 4685 becomes Exhibit

16     P1097, also marked for identification.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  They keep that status for the time being.

18             Please proceed.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, can I read a short summary of the

20     evidence of the witness as contained in the three statements that were

21     admitted into evidence.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You may do so.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

24             Kosta Novakovic was a member of the Yugoslav People's Army and

25     subsequently an officer of the Main Staff of the army of the Republika

Page 11710

 1     Srpska Krajina, ARSK.  Prior to and during Operation Storm, he was the

 2     spokesperson of the ARSK based in Knin, and General Mrksic's assistant in

 3     charge of information, religious, and legal issues.

 4             He was the chief liaison officer between the ARSK, the Croatian

 5     authorities, and the international community.  Mr. Novakovic was based in

 6     Knin for a period of four years between 1991 and August 1995, and

 7     frequently visited ARSK military units on the front line.

 8             His position allowed him to gain detailed knowledge about the

 9     location and composition of ARSK forces and military facilities in the

10     territory of the former RSK.  His position also allowed him to gain

11     detailed knowledge about the use of specific buildings and locations in

12     Knin and the number of ARSK soldiers in the town prior to and during

13     Operation Storm.  For example, in early August 1995, the northern

14     barracks only housed a total of approximately 30 soldiers who were

15     manning the medical facilities, the kitchen, and the technical workshop.

16             Mr. Novakovic was also present at the meeting of the RSK

17     leadership in the evening of 4 August 1995, when it was decided that the

18     civilian population should be moved to safer areas within the RSK

19     territory.

20             This concludes my summary, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.  I noted that you developed

22     the exact speed in which both interpreters booth and the transcriber were

23     able to follow you, which is certainly appreciated by them.

24             No "vivace" but just "moderade."

25             Yes, please proceed.

Page 11711

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Better late than never, Your Honour.

 2        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, let me ask you a few questions regarding your

 3     statements.

 4             You just heard in my summary I referred to you as the assistant

 5     to General Mrksic.  Can you clarify for the Court whether you were an

 6     assistant commander or a deputy commander?

 7        A.   Yes, there is quite a difference.  Deputy commander is the Chief

 8     of Staff who, in certain situations, has the competencies of the

 9     commander.  Assistant commander is in charge of a particular area; and as

10     specified in the title, that person is an assistant and has no particular

11     competent in that area.

12             I was an assistant commander for information, religious matters,

13     legal affairs, and a liaison with international organisations.  In that

14     respect, I often acted as a spokesperson for the army of Serbian Krajina;

15     and, at a certain point in time, I headed the delegation of the Serbian

16     Krajina during negotiations abroad or in the territory of the former

17     Yugoslavia.

18             Acting as such, I was not in command of any units.  I did have,

19     however, certain subordinate formations of mine, which were the army hall

20     of the Serbian Krajina army, the library, the press centres, the

21     editorial room of our military gazette, and, for a short while, the

22     military band, but these were not combat units.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I want to refer to a your first statement P1092.  At

24     page 11 of that statement in the English in the second full paragraph,

25     you state -- and I will just read it out for you, and then I will ask you

Page 11712

 1     a series of questions on that.

 2             It says:  "I wish to clarify here that no plans for the

 3     evacuation of the population had been made at the RSK level; however,

 4     plans were drawn up at the level of municipalities and villages,

 5     exclusively for the purpose of protecting the population and moving it to

 6     safer areas but only inside RSK.  There were never any plans for leaving

 7     the territory of RSK."

 8             Now, I first want to show you an exhibit, D255, which is a

 9     29 July 1995 document, and it will appear on the screen in front of you

10     in just a few seconds.  I want firstly to focus on the top of that

11     document where it says:  "Republic of Serbian Krajina, republican

12     civilian protection staff."

13             First, I want you to please tell the Court, briefly, what is

14     civilian protection and what were its responsibilities?

15        A.   The civilian protection of the RSK fell under the Ministry of

16     Defence of the RSK as a segment of the ministry.  Civilian protection, as

17     an aspect of an organised way to protect the population, is something

18     that was common to all armed forces in the former state.  Its primary

19     goal was to protect the population.  That was the raison d'etre of civil

20     protection, to protect the population from various dangers, be it war,

21     emergency situations, natural disasters, and so on and so forth.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we go to the bottom of the page in the

24     B/C/S and that's the second page in English.

25        Q.   You can see that the author of this is a person called Dusko

Page 11713

 1     Babic as chief.

 2             Can you tell the Court who Mr. Babic was and what was his role

 3     with in civilian protection?

 4        A.   I see the signature as well, and I recognise it.  This gentleman

 5     was an officer.  I think he was either a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel

 6     at the time.  He was assistant minister for defence and, at the same

 7     time, the head of civil protection as part of the ministry.  Civil

 8     protection was within his remit.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  And if in the English we can go back to the first

10     page.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, under item 2, it says:  "Establish continuous

12     duty rosters, and staff members are to take action especially on the

13     following:  Sheltering, evacuating, and providing treatment."

14             Now, before I ask you my next question, let me go to another

15     document, which is D256, and that one will appear on the screen shortly.

16             You will see this is also a document from Mr. Babic from civil

17     protection, this time dated 2 August 1995.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, the document that we saw on our

19     screen, there seems to be a cover page saying "Footnote 37," which,

20     because it is a three-page document, of course I wonder to what it is a

21     footnote.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I believe, if you know, it comes from a Croatian

23     government document that was produced.  It's a study by the Croatian

24     government which was produced to the OTP, and then there are footnotes to

25     it.  So these are the documents that referenced in the broader document.

Page 11714

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So perhaps for this document, then it is

 2     totally useless to have it be added as a footnote if we don't have the

 3     original.  So, perhaps, we could it a two-page document in English,

 4     rather than a three-page document.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  It was a Defence exhibit, so we just used the same

 6     one rather than uploading a different version.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  We tendered it, but it is an OTP exhibit.  All of

 8     these are from their 65 ter list, and they all have the footnote -- all

 9     the documents have the footnote page, so --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I now know what it is, and I'll not break my legs

11     over it.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  We'll remove the first page, Your Honour, if the

13     Defence agrees.  It's a Defence exhibit so I have to ask their

14     permission.

15             MR. MISETIC:  No objection, Your Honour.

16             MR. HEDARALY:

17        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, now the document in front of you, before I stopped

18     by questioning, is a 2 August from civil protection; and, here, we see

19     once again item 1, sheltering; item 2; evacuation; and item 3, care.

20             Now, can you please explain to the Court what the civilian

21     population was supposed to do in case of an emergency or an attack, and

22     let's start with the first item, in terms of sheltering?

23        A.   May I just offer a comment on the two documents?  Am I allowed to

24     do that, Your Honour?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  There is no problem in giving your comment, but I'd

Page 11715

 1     invite you first to answer the question that was put to you by Mr.

 2     Hedaraly.  If there's anything you'd like to add, then please do so.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that the second

 4     document stems from the first document covering some of the same issues.

 5     Hereby, the person drafting it is asking to see how the plans concerning

 6     sheltering and elevation, as well as care, are progressing.  In the first

 7     case of sheltering, the civilians, in case of air-strikes, it is

 8     important that the population be sheltered in the existing facilities, as

 9     soon as possible.

10             Some of the newer date buildings did have such, as call them,

11     nuclear shelters; whereas, the older ones did not.  Hence, people hid in

12     cellars and rooms of that nature, and a plan was devised to what building

13     people were supposed to go from their own respective buildings.  It was

14     important that, first, people are sheltered from any dangers of a

15     possible attack, and they were supposed to cover a distance of between 50

16     and 100 metres.

17        Q.   Okay.  That is the first item, sheltering.  Now, what about in

18     terms of evacuation.  What was the civilian population supposed to do in

19     case of an emergency or an attack?

20        A.   Evacuation is phase two.  The civil protection was supposed to

21     draw up plans, and we can see that it required materiel, supplies, and

22     teams who were supposed to receive and accommodate the population.  Also,

23     the movement of people from the endangered -- from the area that is in

24     danger was supposed to be undertaken, but not to a great distance.  The

25     distance involved was between ten and 20 kilometres.  I think that was

Page 11716

 1     the distance mentioned in the plans.

 2        Q.   And, in 1995, had you seen any of the specific plans that had

 3     been prepared by civil protection?

 4        A.   That was outside of my remit and I had no occasion to see those

 5     plans; however, I do know that they were in existence.  I was in close

 6     contact with the people responsible for it, specifically Mr. Babic and

 7     others.  I do know that there were working on those plans and there was

 8     no reason for me to question that.  Also, under the existing regulations,

 9     they were duty-bound to have such plans ready.

10        Q.   Let me show you D253 which is the evacuation plan for the

11     municipality of Benkovac, and that is the municipality where you were

12     born.  Is that right?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   That`s going to come up on the screen soon.  You have a hard copy

15     of it in tab 4 of the -- of the documents you have in front of you, if

16     you want to refer to the paper copy.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  And if, Mr. Registrar, we can go to page 2 of this

18     document, and it's a chart so we can use only the B/C/S version for now.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, let me first ask you:  The villages on this

20     chart, are they located roughly according to their geographical location

21     relative to one another.  By that, I mean, for example, Zagrad and

22     Rastevic, are they to the west of Benkovac, and so on?

23        A.   Yes, that is correct.

24        Q.   And, therefore, is it fair to say that on this chart the front

25     line is to the west and the south of the -- of this chart?

Page 11717

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   Now, on the left portion of this chart that we see page 2 of

 3     Exhibit D253, there is an curved line going from the top, and above it,

 4     there is a Roman numeral I.  Do you know what that number represents?

 5        A.   It probably represents the first group of villages that was the

 6     closest to the front line.

 7        Q.   And, similarly, towards the middle of the page on the top, we see

 8     another curved line with a Roman numeral II this time.  What would that

 9     indicate?

10        A.   It was another group of villages further away from the front line

11     by some 15 up to 20 kilometres.

12        Q.   And, finally, we see a Roman numeral III as well, just under the

13     line where there is the Roman numeral II line.  So would that be a

14     further group of villages even further removed?

15        A.   Yes.  One concludes that this would be the third group of

16     villages in a relatively safe area removed from both the first and second

17     area and the front line itself by some 30 or even more kilometres.

18             MR. MISETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... how this

19     witness knows what those numbers mean on the document.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You could ask the witness, Mr. Hedaraly.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  Of course.

22        Q.   Do you know -- well, Mr. Novakovic, how do you know what these

23     numbers represent?

24        A.   It is very clear from the schematic.  Since I had occasion to see

25     these documents before I was shown these documents by the prosecutor, I

Page 11718

 1     was able to arrive at certain conclusions as to the meaning of the first,

 2     second, and third line.  The first line encompasses all of the villages,

 3     such as Civljane, Smilcic, Biljane, Ceranje, and Kakma, and so on, these

 4     being the villages immediately adjacent to the front line.

 5             In the second group, you see some of the villages that are a bit

 6     further away, thus being included into the second group.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Again, with respect to the foundation, if with

 8     could explore --

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I think, as we go through documents, the witness

10     will clearly explain this in the rest of the document, and that is what I

11     was going do.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  There are two issues:  To explain the document

13     and to explore the source of knowledge on why the document should be

14     explained as the witness does.  You may have an understanding of the

15     substance of it, which does not necessarily include that you know what

16     was in the mind of those who have drawn these lines --

17             MR. MISETIC:  I was thinking along the lines of, was he

18     personally in any way involved in these types of things so that he would

19     know.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... yes.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  I think the answer was clear that he was not

22     involved in a specific detail, he had the general understanding, and now

23     I'm showing an example to see if that is assistant with his general

24     understanding of --

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We could ask, "If you are not involved in

Page 11719

 1     drafting it, then, of course you could, as a citizen, it could be that

 2     you received it," or whatever; but would you please explore to the extent

 3     possible where the knowledge of the witness comes from.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:

 5        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, your knowledge of these various steps or phases

 6     that we see on this evacuation plan that we've discussed, where does this

 7     knowledge come from that there were such phases?

 8        A.   I graduated from the Military Academy specializing at the senior

 9     political school, and I have a Ph.D. in military science.  Matters such

10     as this one and many others are familiar to me.  This is a relatively

11     simply schematic although practical.  Even a layperson would be able to

12     conclude what it means.

13             The person drafting this, or the group of people drafting this,

14     included the villages from Benkovac municipality into the three groups

15     represented.  One can clear see that the first group represents the

16     villages that are on the front line itself.  The second group is between

17     the first group, towards the interior of the country of the region by

18     some 15 to 20 kilometres.  The third group is even further removed by

19     some five or eight kilometres, towards a territory that was not in the

20     combat area, out of range of artillery.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can then go to the next page of this

22     document, page 3, and we can have the translation at the same time for

23     this one.

24        Q.   You see the top of this document says "First phase of the

25     evacuation."

Page 11720

 1             Can you tell the Court what this page represents?

 2        A.   On this page, we see the villages that fall under Roman numeral I

 3     in the previous document.  The first group is included in the first

 4     phase.

 5        Q.   And --

 6        A.   It was only logical --

 7        Q.   Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

 8             The people from these villages in phase one are supposed to go in

 9     case of an attack in Benkovac, Bijeljina, Kistanje.  Is that right?

10        A.   Yes, it is.  Save for Kistanje, all the other villages are in

11     Benkovac municipality.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can now go to page 7 of this exhibit in the

13     B/C/S, and I believe it is page 9 of the English.

14        Q.   And this time we have a similar chart again, but for what appears

15     to be villages from the second phase.  Is that right?

16        A.   Yes, that's right, precisely from the group marked with Roman

17     numeral II.

18        Q.   And this time we see that the villages where people are supposed

19     to go are Bijeljina, Dobropoljci, Bruska, Biovcino Selo, and Parcici.

20     Right?

21        A.   Correct.  Expect for the village of Biovcino, all the others come

22     under the Benkovac municipality; whereas, Biovcino falls under Knin.

23        Q.   I will ask you to show the Court where the villages are in a

24     second.  Let's just go through phase three quickly.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  That is at page 11 of the B/C/S; page 14 of the

Page 11721

 1     English.

 2        Q.   And this time we can see that these people from the phase three

 3     victims are supposed to go, once again, Bijeljina, Parcici, Kistanje, and

 4     Biovcino Selo.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   Now, let me just ask you, all of villages where people were

 7     supposed to go, generally speaking where were they located with respect

 8     to the town of Benkovac?

 9        A.   The villages were located to the north-east of Benkovac by some

10     20 to 25 kilometres.  If you follow the front line, it`s almost 40

11     kilometres, perhaps not as many, but roughly.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go back to page 2 of the document, the

13     chart that we had seen, the approximate map with all of villages listed

14     on it.

15        Q.   And we can see on this some of the villages where people were

16     supposed to go, so Parcici, Bijeljina, Dobropoljci, Bruska, are all

17     located on the right-hand side of this chart in the top half.

18             Do you see that on this chart?

19        A.   Yes, I can see that.

20        Q.   If we move a limited higher, we can see there is an arrow for

21     Kistanje going to the right and an arrow to the top for, B. Selo.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  Which, Your Honour, the Prosecution assumes is

23     Biovcino Selo.

24        Q.   Is Kistanje in that direction to the east of this map, the

25     north-east?

Page 11722

 1        A.   Yes.  One can see that the two were added.  Biovcino and Kistanje

 2     was added by someone ineptly.  Back in that table, you could see that the

 3     villages were included; whereas, they were not in this schematic.  The

 4     schematic in itself is correct.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, could you repeat, because it was not

 6     caught the transcriber.  The Prosecution considered B. Selo to be?

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Biovcino Selo.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Biovcino.  We found that where on the map?

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  It's on -- there is an arrow on the right -- there

10     is an arrow to the right going to Kistanje and an arrow going north, B.

11     Selo.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see that.

13             MR. HEDARALY:

14        Q.   And, Mr. Novakovic, Kistanje and Biovcino Selo, I think you said

15     but I want to make sure, were not in the Benkovac municipality.  Is that

16     right?

17        A.   That's right.  They were in the municipality of Knin, Your

18     Honours.  Biovcino village lies on the boundary between the Knin and

19     Benkovac municipalities.

20        Q.   All the other villages that we see on this chart are all in the

21     Benkovac municipality.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And you see also, on this chart, there's is a broken line

24     starting to the right of where the Roman numeral II is curving around and

25     encompassing these villages.  Do you know what that curved, broken line

Page 11723

 1     represents?

 2        A.   I'm not quite sure.  Logically speaking, this is an area outside

 3     of the combat zone, out of the range of artillery fire, so I would

 4     conclude that it is a safe area; and my village, Bijeljina, is in the

 5     centre of it.

 6        Q.   Now, to your knowledge as an assistant commander, did other

 7     municipalities have plans similar to this one?

 8        A.   Absolutely.  Everyone had to have such or similar plans.  Some

 9     had better plans, others poorer, but everyone had plans for their

10     municipalities.  In fact, they were mostly municipal level plans.  That's

11     who would produce them.

12        Q.   And how long were the people that went to these safer villages

13     supposed to say there?

14        A.   Well, it's a relatively issue, really; but definitely not too

15     long.  For instance, had the international community intervened on the

16     4th of August or in any other way, the population would have returned to

17     the area quite soon, just as they had done previously when other events

18     were happening.  At any rate, the population did not embark on an

19     elevation in order to stay in the area where they were evacuated

20     permanently.  The point was that they would return to their home

21     settlements at a certain point.

22        Q.   To your knowledge, did any of these plans, did any of these

23     municipalities contemplate people leaving permanently?

24        A.   Absolutely not.

25        Q.   And, again, to your knowledge, did any of those plans contemplate

Page 11724

 1     people leaving the territory of the RSK?

 2        A.   No, none of the plans did.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.  I want to change topics and talk about

 4     the 4th of August, the attack that occurred.

 5             Can you briefly tell the Court what happened on the 4th, as early

 6     as you remember in the morning, and what were your personal observations

 7     in the morning on the 4th of August.

 8        A.   On the 4th of August, at 4.15 in the morning, I received

 9     information from the communications officer that I should report to the

10     command as soon as possible, urgently, that I had a message from the

11     UNPROFOR command from the UNPA zone where the Sector South command was

12     located.  I was in bed, so I dressed up in a hurry, and it took me

13     perhaps some ten minutes to reach the command.

14             The communications officer, who was a civilian, he was in charge

15     of liaising the Main Staff, the government, and the Sector South command,

16     as well as the UNPROFOR command in Zagreb.  He told us that the Croatian

17     army would most definitely attack us at 5.00.  This was the information

18     we had.  We had all sorts of information circulating, ill-meant and

19     well-meant, but let us not dwell on that now.

20             I called my colleague who was the duty officer in the Main Staff

21     to tell him that he should inform the corps commands, the senior officers

22     who resided in Knin, and, above all, that he should call Commander Mrksic

23     to come to the staff, to the headquarters.  I think that he did

24     everything that we agreed.  For my part, I was thinking about where I was

25     going to work because my office was in the army hall, which did not offer

Page 11725

 1     any sort of protection.  It had transparent slabs on the roof, not a

 2     proper roof at all.

 3             Precisely at 0500 hours, heavy artillery fire started.  I should

 4     say it started from all manner of weaponry.  It was in salvos.  There

 5     were multi-barrel rockets, and there were Howitzers, 155-millimetre,

 6     120-millimetres -- or rather, it is 122.  I believe that even tanks were

 7     active.

 8             My colleague and I found shelter under a staircase for a while

 9     and then proceed to an office that was relatively safe.

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

11        A.   I could say that I was counting them --

12        Q.   I'm sorry.  Well, let me first ask you:  What were you counting?

13        A.   Had I had occasion to count, I believe that in the first

14     half-hour more than 500 rounds of shells of varying calibre landed on

15     Knin.

16        Q.   Let me ask you:  In the course of the morning and that day, when

17     the attack took place, what was the atmosphere in the town or in the army

18     hall or at any other location that you may have been?

19        A.   I must say that, initially, in the army hall where I was present,

20     there were only two or three people; but then they kept coming during the

21     day, going to and fro throughout the day.  Since the Main Staff was

22     situated in the immediate proximity -- or rather, my office in the army

23     hall was quite close to the Main Staff, so that during the day, I passed

24     through that area by the building where the -- where General Mrksic's

25     office was - it was some 50 metres - some 20 times a day.

Page 11726

 1             I know that, in my office, at times there were 15 people present,

 2     and I kept receiving different information.  I don't know how descriptive

 3     I should be.  I go only give you the gist, and then if you have

 4     questions, you can put them.

 5             In the course of the day, at 10.00, I had a meeting with my

 6     associates and UNPROFOR representatives:  General Alan Forand, the

 7     commander; his chief for civilian affairs, I believe his name was Hussein

 8     Al-Alfi; Mr. Alun Roberts; and a dozen other officers, perhaps.

 9        Q.   And did you receive any reports as to which areas under attack or

10     what was being targeted, either in Knin or in the RSK in general?

11        A.   Yes.  We received reports from the commander and other people who

12     came in with information.  We had information to the effect that all the

13     larger settlements were shelled at the time, all the villages.

14             I have to say that settlements were more exposed to fire than

15     were the units that were engaging the units of the Croatian army.  That's

16     why there was an impression made of the fact that there were suffered

17     grave losses of people.  In the first hours of the day, people were

18     panic-stricken and started leaving.  Out of the group of people who were

19     with me in the press centre, some people who initially showed up

20     eventually were no longer there.  They decided to start leaving Knin.

21     For instance, the population of Obrovac had moved out already at 8.00 in

22     the morning.

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... let me move forward to the

24     afternoon of the 4th, and we discussed some of the evacuation plans,

25     i.e., the Benkovac plan, a few minutes ago.

Page 11727

 1             I want to show you D137, which is the actual decision that was

 2     taken by the Supreme Defence Council that were at least signed by

 3     President Martic, to evacuate the civilian population.  That is going to

 4     come up on the screen in a few seconds.

 5             First of all, I want to ask you, are you familiar with this

 6     document?

 7        A.   Yes, very much so.

 8        Q.   And why are you familiar with this document?

 9        A.   Because I authored the document, in a way.

10        Q.   Can you tell us the circumstances under which you authored this

11     document -- actually, before I ask you that question - I'm sorry - there

12     is a handwritten number on the top there, the number of the outgoing

13     correspondence, I assume.

14             Is that your handwriting that we see there?

15        A.   Yes, that's my handwriting.

16        Q.   Let me go back to the question I wanted to ask you.

17             What are the -- can you tell us the circumstances under which you

18     authored this document?

19        A.   As one can see, the document was produced in the afternoon after

20     1600 hours.

21             Let me just add that, previously, we had a meeting with the

22     UNPROFOR command, who promised that they would intervene through the

23     UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb, to ensure that civilian targets are not fired

24     upon.  In that period, we had contacts with our units, all the way

25     through the afternoon hours.  And at 1400 hours, I gave an interview from

Page 11728

 1     my office to for Radio Belgrade, and the information I had at that time

 2     was that our situation was relatively good in terms of the front lines

 3     not having moved at that time.

 4             However, already at this time, as the preamble of the document

 5     says, certain areas were endangered.  Our unit which was on the

 6     Senj-Vrlika axis was threatened where our Vrbnik 1st Light Brigade was

 7     located.  On the other hand, our units stationed on the western slope of

 8     Velebit at Mali Alan was threatened.  That is where 4th Light Obrovac

 9     Brigade and 7th Dalmatia Corps were stationed, as well as the

10     7th Motorised Brigade from the 15th Lika Corps.

11        Q.   Let me take you back to D137, the decision, and you said you

12     authored it.  Was that on your own initiative, or did someone ask you to

13     prepare this.

14        A.   I was just about to come to that point.  At 1630 hours, General

15     Mrksic summoned me and asked me what I was doing.  He told me, "Why don't

16     you come over so that we could see what we are going to do with the

17     population, since it is at risk."

18             President Martic was in my office; General Loncar, the Chief of

19     Staff was there.  He said also that there was one of the ministers there

20     with him.  Then Minister Kovacevic, the minister of information; and Knin

21     mayor arrived.  He said, We have to see what we're going to do next."  I

22     reached his office in less than two to three minutes.

23             As I stepped into Mr. Mrksic's office, General Mrksic's office, I

24     already found all the individuals I mentioned there.  Mr. Mrksic then

25     briefed us on the situation and said, literally, "President Martic spoke

Page 11729

 1     with Prime Minister Babic, who is in Belgrade.  Babic, as we all know,

 2     attended the meeting with US Ambassador Peter Galbraith, and I think that

 3     Croatia will not stop."

 4             President Martic spoke with both Belgrade and Pale.  My

 5     presumption was, although he didn't say that in so many words, that he

 6     spoke with Milosevic and Karadzic.  I consulted minister -- the defence

 7     minister and the minister of the interior, because they, in addition to

 8     President Martic and commander, were members of the Supreme Defence

 9     Council.  Then he said, "We decided that we ought to evacuate the

10     population out of Dalmatia, Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac, and Drnis were the

11     municipalities involved, and out of the Gracac municipality in Lika.

12             Now why - I didn't finish this story - because there was the

13     danger that practically, across Mali Alan, the route would be cut off,

14     which was the only route leading toward the hinterland via Otocac.  In

15     Dalmatia, the army and the entire population would find themselves

16     encircled.

17             I do not wish to abuse your time.  If need be, I can explain

18     later on.

19             But we now how the Serbian units and Serbian population -- what

20     sort of end they met and what their fate was when they found themselves

21     in encirclement.

22             Let me go back to this decision.  I was told that the population

23     should move out or relocate to Otric and Srb -- or rather, via Oric, Srb,

24     and Lapac, and that I should write a decision to that effect.  They

25     didn't explain this to me in great detail, but told me to see with the

Page 11730

 1     UNPROFOR command, since this was my part of the job, whether they could

 2     get involved in this.

 3             I went back into my office, I drafted this decision, and you can

 4     see that it was done in 1645 until 1710.  So it took me some 20 minutes,

 5     half an hour.

 6             Why did I type this out on my own?  Well, in order to make sure

 7     that a typist, typing it up, would not reek havoc.  That's why I did it

 8     on myself, and that's why you have some typos there.  I used an

 9     electrical typewriter -- no, I used a mechanical typewriter.

10             I brought it over and the president signed it.

11        Q.   Let me go back to something that you said in your answer about

12     Mrksic telling you that the civilian population had to be saved.  Was

13     there any discussion in that meeting of the Croatian artillery attack on

14     the region?

15        A.   Yes, absolutely.  The attack was the main reason why the

16     population needed to be evacuated.

17        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 6113, and this is an extract from a book

18     of Mr. Sekulic.  It will come up on the screen shortly, and it is page

19     179 of his book.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to the second page of that document

21     in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   The portion in the middle of the page in the B/C/S, the

23     paragraph that starts rights with:  "Decision of the Supreme Defence of

24     Council communicated to the public at 2000 hours on 4 August.

25             Then there is the next paragraph, which is the quote of that

Page 11731

 1     press release or communique, and I want to read that and ask you a

 2     question about it.

 3             It says:  "During today's session, the Supreme Defence of Council

 4     of Republika Srpska Krajina delivered decision to organise the evacuation

 5     of the civilian population of Northern Dalmatia and the southern part of

 6     Lika, due to the preventative and security reasons.  The members of the

 7     United Nations peace force, along with members of the RSK civilian

 8     protection, shall take active participation in the organisation of the

 9     evacuation and escort the civilian population."

10             Now, I want to focus on this last sentence:  "This decision of

11     the Supreme Defence of Council has been delivered in order to protect the

12     civilian population from any possible further attacks of the Croatian

13     artillery, and in order for the Serb soldiers who are keeping the lines

14     of defence to be relieved of worry for their families."

15             My question for you is:  Is this -- what we see in this report of

16     a press release, is this consistent with the reasons why this decision

17     was taken?

18             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I have to note an objection.  This is

19     now impeaching the witness, and --

20             MR. HEDARALY:  It is consistent; it is not an impeachment.

21             MR. MISETIC:  It is impeachment.  The witness has testified that

22     there is was no announcement in the public about the evacuation.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's not discuss this in the presence of the

24     witness.

25             Mr. Novakovic, do you understand the English language?  It

Page 11732

 1     appears from the statements that you have some knowledge.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, yes, partly I do.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When we start discussing impeachment or not,

 4     either we do it in such a way by not by making reference to statement and

 5     lines without the witness immediately following it, or to do it --

 6             MR. MISETIC:  One moment, Your Honour.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  I simply asked him, generally, what his

 8     understanding of the meaning was, and I'm asking if is this consistent

 9     with what happened.  I'm not attempting to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  One second.

11             Mr. Hedaraly, how much time would you still further need?

12             MR. HEDARALY:  Twenty to 30 minutes; I'm hoping 20 will be

13     enough.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That couldn't be done before the break.

15             Therefore, Mr. Novakovic, since a procedural issue has been

16     raised, we would rather discuss this in your absence, which will give you

17     some more time for a coffee break.

18             Therefore, I suggest that we ask Madam Usher to escort the

19     witness out of the courtroom.

20             We'd like to see you back in approximately half an hour,

21     Mr. Novakovic.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's see where are.

Page 11733

 1             MR. MISETIC:  My objection is at, P1092, page 11, the witness,

 2     his testimony is, because is it now 92 ter material, is:  In the first

 3     full paragraph towards the middle, he talks about the evacuation order,

 4     and then says, "The decision was not forwarded through the official mail,

 5     and was not publicised through the media.

 6             Then the question posed to him is page -- page 36, line 16:  "My

 7     question for you is:  Is this what we see in this report of a press

 8     release?"

 9             Now, I consider those to be inconsistent with what they've put

10     the witness to say:  There was no public announcement of this.  Now,

11     they're putting it to him:  Is the public announcement that was, in fact,

12     put out in the public consistent with what you believe.

13             I call the Trial Chamber's attention to the Appeals Chamber's

14     decision in Popovic from the 1st of February, 2008, decision on appeals

15     against decision on impeachment of a party's own witness, in which the

16     Appeals Chamber said that a calling party must seek the permission of the

17     Trial Chamber to impeach its own witness.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr., Hedaraly, apparently, you --

19             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm obviously not trying to impeach my own

20     witness.  I think it is clear to everyone here that I am not.  There is a

21     document from another witness saying that it is a press release.  I'm not

22     confronting him by telling there was, No, there was press release, wasn't

23     there?

24             I'm asking whether the content of that release as it is stated in

25     a book that the Defence is trying to introduce, a portion which is in

Page 11734

 1     evidence, which is in one of pages.  I'm asking him whether this is

 2     consistent with the reasons that he was given for drafting the actual

 3     decision.

 4             I am more than happy to explore with him the matter, or if

 5     Mr. Misetic wants to in cross-examination, as to his knowledge of who

 6     issued the press release, if someone else may have done it.

 7             And, further, the fact that he did not issue himself a press

 8     release or didn't know about it does not mean that it didn't occur.  But

 9     that is not the main point of my question, and I think I was hoping that

10     it was clearer.  But if there's a way that Your Honour you want to assist

11     me in asking the question to make it clearer, so that I'm not questioning

12     his statement that there was or there was not a press release, but

13     focussing on the contents of it, as to the reasons why the decision was

14     given to evacuate the civilian population.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, it is improper on direct.  He has

16     already put to him what was said at the meeting, was there a decision

17     about artillery.  He can put him whatever else he wants in terms of what

18     his specific issue are.  But what appears to be happening, then, is to

19     say, Well, now we would like to stick this book page in front of the

20     Trial Chamber and have the witness tell the Trial Chamber whether what's

21     in a book is consistent with what he just told the Trial Chamber.

22             I'm sure the Trial Chamber will be able, particularly after

23     cross-examination, to evaluate whether it is consistent or not.  But we

24     don't need to go through the exercise again, particularly where it is now

25     muddying the waters as to whether there was a public announcement, which

Page 11735

 1     is what Mr. Sekulic says in the book; or there wasn't, which what the

 2     witness is now testified to before the Trial Chamber.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, do I understand that whether it was

 4     publicly announced is not the issue, but we're, rather, talking about the

 5     substance?

 6             MR. HEDARALY:  That is correct, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  But if that's the issue, and not the public

 8     announcement, why not ask the witness something in general terms, that

 9     the order was once described by someone as so-and-so and so, does that

10     fit?  I mean, apparently, if it is about the substance, then whether the

11     substance is presented in a certain context, apparently the context is

12     not what you're seeking.  So let's then focus on the substance entirely

13     and leave out the context.

14             Is that a solution?  Because then the issue of impeaching your

15     own witness disappears.

16             MR. MISETIC:  I think that is my point, Your Honour.  He has

17     already said that there was this discussion about artillery at the

18     meeting, so I don't know what the point of the exercise is.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  I think --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  We have two issues:  First of all, whether

21     Mr. Hedaraly is at the point of impeaching the witness.  I think I gave

22     some guidance as at least how to avoid that element; then, of course,

23     what then follows is whether there's any reputation in the question.

24             Mr. Hedaraly, you have 25 minutes to think about the question of

25     how to phrase it or rephrase it, to avoid repetition and to, from what I

Page 11736

 1     understand, so that the issue which caused Mr. Misetic to talk about it

 2     impeachment is not an issue you want to cover at this moment.

 3             So if you refrain from touching upon that, then Mr. Misetic will

 4     have no --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  One other objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  I object to the English translation on the screen

 8     for some.  For some reason, only a selected portions has been extracted

 9     from the page on the screen, and we have a complete translation of the

10     page which puts it back into the context of --

11             MR. HEDARALY:  That raises a very interesting issue.  Your Honour

12     a while ago instructed the parties to agree.  The Defence moved in to

13     chapters of this book, and Chamber instructed the Prosecution and the

14     Defence would agree on specific pages to be admitted to an exhibit.  In

15     Exhibit D260, the Defence had page 180 and 181.  The Prosecution has now

16     repeatedly ask the Defence to add page 179 and their translation to D260,

17     but for some reason it is still not done.  So we have to have our own

18     translation and upload it, and that's why this issue arises.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  This again is an issue, whether true or not, I see

20     some body language, someone nodding no, other perhaps nodding yes.  It

21     appears to me to be a matter which if it is just as practical, as

22     Mr. Hedaraly says, I think it could be resolved quickly.  If it is not

23     that, the Chamber would like to hear either now or after the break what

24     remains as a problem.

25             MR. MISETIC:  We'll talk about it, Your Honour.  I think our

Page 11737

 1     position has been clear all along.  We want the whole section of the book

 2     that deals with Operation Storm, and the Prosecution now wants to

 3     piecemeal it.  We'll talk about it during the break, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I do understand that.  There is also an issue of

 5     uploading the translation, which apparently you don't have the full

 6     translation of everything, and you are seeking --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  No, no.  That is not true.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr Hedaraly mention that --

 9             MR. HEDARALY:  I will discuss it with Mr. Misetic at the break,

10     Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  That would be a good idea.

12             Then I have to admit that where I usually insist on precision,

13     that I'm only one week wrong, at least my agenda, and I leave it alone

14     who put it in my agenda, but the swearing-in ceremony is for the 20th not

15     the 13th, although it appears in my agenda, which caused me to announce

16     that we would have an early finish today.  That was totally wrong, and we

17     will just go on until quarter to 2.00.

18             But you're already on notice that next week, I don't know whether

19     we're sitting in the morning or the afternoon, but if we're sitting in

20     the morning, we will have an early break; if we are sitting in the

21     afternoon, we likely will have a late start.

22             There is one other small matter, and that is, Mr. Misetic, the

23     objection of the Defence against the two documents which are now marked

24     for identification included an objection against having it admitted to

25     the 65 ter list.  By marking it for identification, that was more or less

Page 11738

 1     ignored.  Would you like to further argue on whether or not it should

 2     even be admitted to the 65 ter list, or would it be sufficient for you --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  No, that's fine, Your Honour.  If it is already

 4     MFI'd, that's fine.  I would like to have the opportunity to discuss that

 5     with counsel.

 6             My issue, now that the witness is not here, is I believe it is

 7     undisputed between the Prosecution and the Defence that there are certain

 8     elements of map that are just wrong, and units that never existed in

 9     Operation Storm, which is I wanted to get at what his underlying

10     foundation is, and I don't think that those are issues in dispute between

11     the parties.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  If not, of course, then a solution is at hand.

13             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have a break and resume at five minutes past

15     11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

17                           [The witness entered court]

18                           --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, I would like to thank you.  I see

20     that you have produced the CD.  Let me just try to decipher the

21     literature, if I read your Cyrillic well, the literature you used.

22             The parties, of course, will have it now available and can

23     further work with it, if they wish to do so.  Thank you very much,

24     Mr. Novakovic.

25             Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 11739

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes.  On the matter of the book, I have discussed

 2     with Mr. Misetic, and we're essentially saying similar things.  There was

 3     an exhibit tendered by the Defence, or referred to by the Defence, which

 4     was two chapters of that book, 93 pages, dealing with Operation Storm.

 5     At the time, the Prosecution wanted to review to make sure those were, in

 6     fact, relevant.

 7             Later on with another witness, when another portion of that

 8     collection was used, once again the Prosecution did not force any

 9     objection to Defence exhibit, but the Chamber expressed concerns of

10     having 93 pages, which may not all be used by witnesses, and that's where

11     we stand now.

12             Mr. Misetic told me that most of these 93 pages, or a significant

13     portion of it, will be used with some witnesses.  This is the only page,

14     page 179, that the Prosecution intends to use from those 93 pages.  But

15     at this point, for the sake of convenience, we still don't have any

16     objection to the full two chapters being in evidence.  But, of course, if

17     the Chamber wants individual pages as they are being used with the

18     witnesses, we will abide by that instruction.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  What the Chamber seeks is to have the relevant

20     portions in an understandable context to be presented.  That context

21     often would not require more than one or two pages, but it's not to be

22     said that that is always the case.  Context is to be considered on a case

23     by case basis.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, our position is the way the way the

25     book is structured is they are -- it is a compilation of the reports of

Page 11740

 1     the individual officers of the RSK, for each unit, during Operation

 2     Storm.  And, as such, it is not only a book, but it is a compilation of

 3     individual reports.  All of it, we believe, is relevant.

 4             You've now see, for example, a map tendered by the Prosecution

 5     this morning about locations of various ARSK and HV positions, as well as

 6     their recollections of what happened with their unit in their area of

 7     responsibility on the day in question.

 8             We will be and have been going back and forth throughout those

 9     two chapters of the book.  We believe that, for the sake of convenience,

10     they should be in one location, rather than chopping them up.  The second

11     portion of it is, Your Honour, to the extent that there are certain pages

12     that aren't used, this may be an exhibit that is a combination used live

13     with witnesses and partially bar table.

14             But, overall, it's --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, I earlier said to have the relevant

16     portions in an understandable context.  Sometimes, portions come so close

17     and are so many that to create a context would be to present the whole

18     chapter or the whole chapters.

19             What the Chamber wants to avoid is that we get a lot of pages

20     which have hardly any at all -- any relevance at all.  That is, of

21     course, what we want to avoid; not to prevent the parties from putting

22     relevant material, even if one page or one and a half or two or three

23     pages would not be very relevant, but would be part of a chapter which

24     is, as a whole, very relevant.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11741

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  I leave, at this moment, to the parties to agree on

 2     that.  Of course, I do now understand, Mr. Hedaraly, that there is no

 3     objection against what you intend to do.

 4             So lets then do it, and, of course, it has the advantages of not

 5     chopping up in tiny little parts the evidence where we have to read

 6     separate pages.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  Also, just as a practical matter, the translation

 8     is already -- has been uploaded, so there is no translation issues for

 9     those 93 pages.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  So that was a mistake.

11             Let's then proceed.  I would say, you have had, apart from

12     conversations with Mr. Misetic, you had 30 minutes to think about your

13     question, Mr. Hedaraly.

14             MR. HEDARALY:

15        Q.   And, Mr. Novakovic, before the break, I showed you a statement

16     made by someone, and I'll repeat just the last sentence of it, which is:

17     "The Supreme Defence Council made this decision," the one to evacuate the

18     civilians, "in order to protect the civilian population from possible

19     further Croatian artillery attacks, and to spare the Serbian soldier who

20     is are holding the lines of defence from anxiety about their families."

21             My question is:  Is that consistent with the reasons you were

22     given at your meeting with Mr. Mrksic and Mr. Martic as to why this

23     decision was made?

24        A.   In essence, that is correct.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  And I don't know if I should tender this page,

Page 11742

 1     Your Honour, or simply wait for --

 2             MR. MISETIC:  I will tender -- I can tender it now it now or when

 3     we are in the Defence case.  It doesn't matter to me.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  It is just page 179 that we want, but if the

 5     whole -- it is part of that collection of 93 pages.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Then it is now on the record that it will be

 7     included in the portions of the book that the Defence will tender.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  That's correct.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

11             Let me go back now to D137, the decision.

12        Q.   This is the decision that you drafted, and let me -- I want to

13     draw your attention, when it comes up on the screen, to point number 2.

14             Point number 2 says:  "The evacuation shall be carried out in a

15     planned manner, according to prepared plans along routes leading towards

16     Knin, and then through Otric, towards Srb and Lapac."

17             And my question for you, as the author of this document, is:

18     What did you mean by "prepared plans"?

19        A.   Under the prepared plans, what was envisaged was what we could

20     see in the previous charts when we were discussing the plan of evacuation

21     for Benkovac municipality.

22             I did not go through those plans, but I presumed and I knew that

23     each locale commune, each municipality, and each village had their

24     respective plans.  I warned them that they should stick by the plans, and

25     we assigned them directions of movement.  In this case, it was Knin

Page 11743

 1     Otric, Srb, and Lapac.  Srb and Lapac were the locations where they were

 2     supposed to be placed.

 3        Q.   So that was the plan for all for each of the municipalities would

 4     be used, but the destination was changed.  Have I understood that right?

 5        A.   No.  This only pertains to the four municipalities.  The others

 6     had no evacuation plan and no tasks.  Save for the four municipalities,

 7     no other municipality received such a decision.  There were none.

 8        Q.   And my question is:  So those municipalities were to use their

 9     plannings, such as the one we've seen, but rather than to move them to

10     the areas that we seen, for example, in the Benkovac plan, they were

11     supposed to move them to Srb and Lapac?

12        A.   Yes, that is correct for the five municipalities.

13        Q.   And in the course of your discussions with members of the Supreme

14     Defence Council, when you were told to draft this decision, did they tell

15     you that people should go to Bosnia?

16        A.   No, the destination was Srb and Lapac.

17        Q.   And after the decision was signed by President Martic, what you

18     did you do or what were you told to do?

19        A.   One of the persons competent talked to the people from the

20     Ministry of Defence and civil protection.  Their representatives were

21     there headed by the head of civil protection, Colonel Babic.

22             At 4.00 p.m., we're in a building adjacent to the hall, and I

23     read out the decision to them.  Babic was there; there was a Mr. Kekic,

24     who was in charge of civilian support Northern Dalmatia; there was a

25     Mr. Vujatovic, who was in charge of Knin; and an another dozen or so

Page 11744

 1     representatives from civil protection.  There was also the chef de

 2     cabinet for the minister of defence.

 3        Q.   I am sorry.  I just to check.  The transcript said that that

 4     meeting was at 4.00 p.m.  I thought that at 4.00 p.m. you were in your

 5     offices.  Is that the right time?

 6        A.   I misspoke.  It was at 6.00 p.m.  It is only logical.  You can

 7     see that there was a 4.45, and then this was at 6.00 p.m.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  If we could ask the ask the witness to spell the

 9     name of the individual in line 10.  I don't think the court reporter was

10     able to pick it up.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  I think it was Vujatovic.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we clarify that with the witness, because your

13     understanding is important but not decisive.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vujatovic.

15             MR. HEDARALY:

16        Q.   Thank you, sir.

17             Let's go back to that meeting at 6.00 p.m. with the civil

18     protection representatives, who else was at that time meeting?

19        A.   As I said, the person responsible for evacuation, and it was

20     Colonel Babic.  He was in charge of civil protection.  Then there were

21     his associates from his team; I don't know who they were though.  There

22     was a Mr. Kekic, who was in charge of civil protection for Northern

23     Dalmatia; then there was Mr. Drago Vujatovic, who was in charge of civil

24     protection for Knin municipality.  I also no the chef de cabinet of the

25     defence minister was there.  I don't know his what name is, but he is a

Page 11745

 1     professor, in any case.

 2             There were some other ministers.  I think it's Mr. Drago

 3     Kovacovic; then Mr. Slobodan Peric; and I'm certain that the secretary of

 4     the government, Mr. Strbac, was there.  There were at least five or six

 5     journalists because they were usually accompanying me.

 6             I read out the decision --

 7        Q.   Just before we go there, if I may interrupt you.  Were there

 8     representatives of the UN there at that meeting?

 9        A.   I will explain shortly.

10             When I read out the decision and handed it over to Mr. Babic,

11     since he was to implement it, it was no longer under my competent.  It

12     was at that point that UN representatives arrived, people from UNPROFOR,

13     all those that I mentioned previously as being present at 10.00.  We

14     planned to ask for their assistance.

15        Q.   And you planned -- had you called them before to come to this

16     meeting?

17        A.   I probably did, or one of my associates on my request --

18        Q.   Sorry for the interruption, Sir --

19        A.   -- and upon commander's approval.  I didn't do anything without

20     his approval.

21        Q.   Let's go back to this meeting with the UN.  What was the

22     discussion between yourself and the other representatives of civil

23     protection and the United Nations forces representatives.

24        A.   I opened the meeting, and I was in attendance throughout the

25     meeting.

Page 11746

 1             I see that the representatives of the civil protection were

 2     somewhat confused.  It was obvious that they were not very privy to the

 3     situation, especially those who came from the various municipalities.

 4     They were asking for a lot of fuel and vehicles; whereas, in the end, it

 5     turned out that they needed nothing except for some fuel.  We arranged

 6     there that the UN representatives were supposed to arrive at 8.00 p.m. to

 7     give us their answers.

 8        Q.   Let me show you P592, which are notes that are in evidence taken

 9     by the UN from that meeting.  I want it ask you to review this quickly,

10     it's less than a page, and tell the Court if these notes are consistent

11     with what happened at the meeting.

12        A.   Everything is correct, save for the penultimate paragraph.  It

13     wasn't said that we were to forward information, but that the UN

14     representatives were to arrive at 8.00 p.m. when they would be given

15     information.  Unfortunately, they never did.

16        Q.   Let me show you another -- another summary of that meeting.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  It's D182, and the parties have stipulated that

18     the date on this document is wrong and should be 4 August 1995.  This is

19     half a page.

20        Q.   Could you please review this summary of the meeting, and tell us

21     if it is consistent with what occurred at the meeting.

22        A.   I know this gentleman.  For a while, he was the personal

23     representative of the UNPROFOR commander in Knin; that is to say, the

24     commander of the Main Staff in Zagreb.  He was his representative in Knin

25     for Sector South.  I saw him on several occasions.

Page 11747

 1        Q.   Can you tell us --

 2        A.   I just wanted to say that in the paragraph where he says that we

 3     suggested the following route, that part is incorrect, as from Srb

 4     onwards.  We only provided the route stated in the decision.  I read out

 5     the decision in person, in front of some 20 to 30 people, and I did not

 6     go any further than Srb and Lapac.  As for Bosanski Petrovac, and places

 7     mentioned therein, I don't know where that came from.  As for the

 8     population from Benkovac and Obrovac, going through Pajane rather than

 9     Knin, that is correct.  That second part of the route is incorrect and

10     that was not discussed.  We cannot find it in the documents either.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

12             Let me just change topics now for the -- for my last series of

13     questions.  And in your latest statement of last month, which is now

14     P1094, you provided detailed information with respect to various

15     buildings in Knin and how they were used.  This statement, as you know,

16     is now in evidence, so I won't ask you any questions, for now, on this,

17     although you may have some questions put to you by others.

18             I would like to briefly go through the same exercise for the

19     facilities, the military facilities in Benkovac, as this is the area

20     you're most familiar with.

21             So, first of all, my first question is:  Were you aware that

22     there were some barracks used by the ARSK just outside the town of

23     Benkovac?

24             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, again, the question assumes he was

25     most familiar.  As I know, the foundation here is that he was born in

Page 11748

 1     Benkovac.

 2             MR. HEDARALY:  I think that was already in evidence, so I know

 3     the foundation was already there, but I can ask him specifically, if you

 4     want.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, just how he -- it is foundation ...

 6     [Overlapping speakers]  --

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  That is ... [Overlapping speakers] --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

 9             MR. HEDARALY:

10        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, would Benkovac be the municipality at which you

11     would be the most familiar with in the former RSK?

12        A.   Yes, although I am better acquainted with Knin.

13        Q.   But outside of Knin, Benkovac would the town and the municipality

14     that you would have the most knowledge on?

15        A.   Yes, absolutely.

16        Q.   Let me repeat my question then --

17             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, again, if we're going to get into

18     military targets, although I understand everyone's home town is near and

19     dear to him, if we could get more foundation on his knowledge of military

20     installations and where it comes from for the town of Benkovac.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  I will ask my questions, and if this is an

22     objection to specific questions, then --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think, as a matter of fact, that it is not

24     an objection against specific questions, but to have them preceded by

25     other questions.  Perhaps, you could include that in your questions, that

Page 11749

 1     what you had awe like to know and on what basis the witness claims he has

 2     knowledge of it.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:

 5        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, were you aware that there were some barracks used

 6     by the ARSK outside of the town of Benkovac?

 7        A.   Well, yes, I was.  I knew that at the time when I attended high

 8     school; and, of course, as a member of the staff subsequently, I knew

 9     where the various barracks were.

10        Q.   And do you know what was in those barracks on the 4th of August,

11     1995?

12        A.   On the 4th of August, 1995, in that particular barracks, as in

13     all the other ones, there were predominantly logistic support units.  We

14     had the medical corps there, the kitchen complex, the quartermaster`s

15     premises, workshop, clothes-mending workshop, and a technical workshop.

16             I have to say that, in early 1994 and 1993, some elements of

17     UNPROFOR forces were in the barracks as well.  I don't know when they

18     left the barracks.  However, there were no combat arms present in the

19     barracks --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Combat armed units.

21             MR. HEDARALY:

22        Q.   When you say "armed units," are you referring to -- sorry, strike

23     that.

24             Were there were any fighting soldiers, to your knowledge, in

25     those barracks on the 4th of August, 1995?

Page 11750

 1        A.   No, there weren't.  Combatant units were all deployed along the

 2     engagement line.

 3        Q.   Let me show you D248, which is a map that was prepared by the

 4     Defence.  I want to ask you whether -- if you can confirm the location of

 5     those barracks which is discussed, and it is going to come up in a few

 6     seconds.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:  It will be page 3 of that document, please,

 8     Mr.  Registrar.

 9        Q.   Can you identify for us the location of those barracks on D248?

10        A.   You can see that; it says here.

11        Q.   Just for the record, can you say what it says in writing so that

12     we can have it on the record.

13        A.   It reads "B. Matsura Barracks."  That was the Slobodan Macura

14     barracks, and it says "the total service area."  That was the area from

15     Benkovac in the direction of Zadar.  Although this was part of Benkovac

16     town, it was on the edge of town in the direction of Zadar.  It also

17     says, "the forward command post of the 7th Corps," which was never there.

18        Q.   That's fine.  I just wanted you to identify the location of

19     the -- of that.  But while you mention it, do you know where the forward

20     command post of the 7th Corps was in August 1995?

21        A.   It did not exist at the time.  It came into existence in

22     January 1993 during the aggression on Ravni Kotari, and it was stationed

23     in the village of Biljane.  It only existed for a couple of months.

24        Q.   On this map, there is also an indication of a location that is

25     identified as "Dom JNA."  Are you aware of such an army hall in Benkovac

Page 11751

 1     in August 1995.

 2        A.   Yes, I know.  This was within my competence, the army hall.  It

 3     existed even before -- or rather, it came in existence after World War

 4     II, and it was there on the intersection.

 5        Q.   And how was that used in August 1995?

 6        A.   In that time-period, a group of wounded persons was put up there

 7     because it had a basement, and that particular room had the Red Cross

 8     markation.

 9        Q.   To your knowledge, were there any fighting forces stationed in

10     that army hall?

11        A.   No, there weren't.

12        Q.   We can also see on this map, at the bottom, there is an

13     indications for the command and the communications centres of the

14     3rd Brigade.  Were there such command/communication centres in that

15     approximate location?

16        A.   Yes, that is relatively correct.  The 3rd Brigade was a small

17     unit; some dozen people in the command.  The communication centre was

18     also manned by a couple of people, and they were servicing the units.

19     They may have occupied a couple of homes.  Roughly, that's true.  That

20     was Sopet [phoen].

21        Q.   And what about the other indications on the map?  There is the --

22     well, that is in B/C/S.  But there is a nun's convent that is identified

23     there.  Do you know if that was used at all by the RSK military?

24        A.   I know -- I don't know of the army having used either or any of

25     the religious facilities, be it of Catholic or Orthodox faith.  We, as

Page 11752

 1     far as I know, didn't have a practice of using them.  I don't know if it

 2     was just a building or a family home where the convent was housed.

 3        Q.   And what about the a firemen's hall, were you aware of such a

 4     facility in Benkovac?

 5        A.   Yes.  That was on the way out of town on a new road close to the

 6     railway station.  Organs for civilian early warning was situated -- were

 7     situated there, because before the war, it was the civilian protection

 8     that had -- or rather, it was only the fireman's brigade before the war

 9     which used to have the alarm for early warning, and that was normally

10     where the civilian protection would, if needed, be housed.

11        Q.   And to your knowledge, was this firemen's hall used by the RSK

12     military?

13        A.   No, there was no need for that.

14        Q.   What about the hotel that is identified on this map, was that

15     ever used by the RSK military?

16        A.   The hotel was largely damaged in 1995.  It was not in use.  It

17     was empty.

18        Q.   When you there was damage in 1995, was that before Operation

19     Storm?

20        A.   Yes, yes, definitely before that.  Well, damaged in the sense

21     that it was derelict, not that it was destroyed as such.  Since it was in

22     disuse, it was in disrepair.  That's what I mean.

23        Q.   And, finally, on this map, the post office of Benkovac, to your

24     knowledge, was that ever used by the RSK military?

25        A.   None of the post offices were used.  It is possible that certain

Page 11753

 1     civilian lines were used, the ones that the command used to have before

 2     the war.  The army had its own lines and did not use the PTT lines.

 3     However, these PTT -- those PTT lines that had been used by the army

 4     before the war were probably used by the army also during the war, but

 5     not for the purposes of the units themselves, but for the purposes of the

 6     commander and several other offices in the command.

 7        Q.   On the 4th of August, did you receive any reports about shelling

 8     of the town of Benkovac and what was hit?

 9        A.   Not I personally, but the commander would, and he would brief me

10     and others who would go there.  We had our operative centre there, and

11     the persons manning it would keep track of the information.  We had a

12     great deal of information.  Specifically, according to their information,

13     more than 700 projectiles landed in Benkovac.  One of my associates was

14     dispatched from Knin to Benkovac to see what the situation was like.

15        Q.   And did you receive any information as to what was being targeted

16     or where the shells were following in Benkovac?

17        A.   In Benkovac, as well as elsewhere, the rounds were fired

18     indiscriminately.  It was scatter-shot fire.  We believe that both

19     civilians and military targets were hit.  Everything was under fire, just

20     as was the case in Knin.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Novakovic.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, this concludes the Prosecution's

23     examination.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

25             Mr. Misetic, you will be the first to cross-examine the witness?

Page 11754

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Novakovic, you will first be cross-examined by

 3     Mr. Misetic.  Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

 5        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, good morning.

 6        A.   Good morning.

 7        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, first, a little bit of background information

 8     about you.

 9             You, throughout your time in the so-called Krajina, in addition

10     to being an officer in the RSK army, you were also simultaneously an

11     officer in the Yugoslav People's Army.  Correct?

12        A.   Not at the same time.  When I was Krajina officer, I was only

13     that.

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... while you're in the Krajina,

15     you were working for the Yugoslav People's Army KOS or, "Kontraobavesajna

16     Sluzba," or the counter-intelligence service?

17        A.   No, that's not true.  I had never worked for KOS.  This was

18     precisely the sector that I never quite understood and where nobody ever

19     hired me to work for it.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if could I have on the screen,

21     please, 1D61-0225, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, as you will see on the screen here, this is letter

23     sent by you to the MUP in Serbia.  And in it, you say -- you are

24     requesting approval of citizenship, and you say:  "I am an active

25     military officer serving in the Yugoslav People's Army, currently with

Page 11755

 1     the post in the Serb Krajina army in the Republic of Serbian Krajina."

 2             That is it your signature on the bottom.  Correct?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   Now, as I said when I started, you were, in fact, an active JNA

 5     officer, or Yugoslavia army officer, while you were in the RSK army.

 6     Correct?

 7        A.   Well, one can see from the document that that is not quite the

 8     case.  When we were seeking citizenship, we had to state some sort of an

 9     activity.  We needed to have citizenship for technical issues.  It was

10     connected with personnel issues.  At any rate, regardless of the

11     inference you can make for this, while we were officers of the RSK, we

12     were not members of the VJ.

13        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

14        A.   That's what I'm saying, because it was on that basis that the

15     issue of citizenship had to be resolved.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  I think Mr. Misetic is listening to the original,

17     so could have a pause because now we are loosing the translation.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, if you look at a transcript, page 57,

19     line 7, you'll see that --

20             MR. MISETIC:  Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- we do not know what you asked the witness.

22             MR. MISETIC:  Well, let me ask, Mr. Registrar, if we could give

23     Mr. Novakovic a hard copy of another document.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic, just for --

25             MR. MISETIC:  To tender this, yes.

Page 11756

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  -- our information, any date known of this document

 2     of which the witness says, or could you ask him when he --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 4        Q.   When -- you heard the question of the Presiding Judge.  When did

 5     you send this to the MUP of Serbia?

 6        A.   I'm not sure.  Possibly in 1993, when we were applying for

 7     citizenship.  I wish to state, however, that I was granted the

 8     citizenship only in 1999.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, now I ask for, actually it is in

11     e-court already, 1D61-0342, please -- actually, sorry.  I ask that this

12     exhibit be marked, and I tender it into evidence.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, document ID number 1D61-0225 becomes

17     Exhibit number D920.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  D920 is admitted into evidence.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Now, Mr. Registrar, if I could have 1D61-0342 on

20     the screen, please.

21        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, this is, again, an undated autobiography signed by

22     you; and at the bottom, you write:  "I am now serving in the Serbian army

23     of Krajina Main Staff in Knin, and my permanent address Military Post

24     4001, Belgrade."

25        A.   I think, or rather, I don't think, I know that this document

Page 11757

 1     bears the same date as the one before.  The purpose of this document was

 2     solely the issue of citizenship.  You know that we, the officers, were

 3     registered through the 40th Personnel Sector.  That is not a secret at

 4     all because it was in this way that we received our pay.  We were on the

 5     payroll there.

 6             This does not change what I said, that when we were in Krajina we

 7     were exclusively officers of the RSK army, regardless of what one could

 8     infer from this document.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... military post, in fact --

10     sorry.  Was your permanent military post, in fact, 4001, Belgrade, while

11     you were serving in the so-called with RSK army?

12        A.   No, no.  I had an identity card, a military ID, with Military

13     Post 9000, Knin.  This was the auxiliary post, so to speak.  This was the

14     military post of the 40th Personnel Centre.

15             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this exhibit be marked,

16     and I tender it into evidence.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D921, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D921 is admitted into evidence.

22             MR. MISETIC:

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, you just mentioned the 40th Personnel Centre,

24     and I would like to show you via Sanction -- I'd like to show you the

25     indictment that the Office of the Prosecutor filed against Momcilo

Page 11758

 1     Perisic before this Tribunal.  This is the current indictment in that

 2     case.

 3             And if we could go to page 12, it says at paragraph 45:  "Momcilo

 4     Perisic's subordinates, under international law, include those personnel

 5     over whom he had a material ability to prevent and punish the commission

 6     of crimes.  They included, but were not limited to ..."

 7             Point A says:  "All VJ personnel that were assigned or seconded

 8     to the VRS and the SVK via the 30th and 40th Personnel Centres of the VJ

 9     General Staff ..."

10             Now, were you, in fact, seconded to the army of the RSK through

11     the 40th Personnel Centre of the Yugoslav General Staff?

12        A.   In my personal view, no.  I was already down there at the time,

13     and I don't know how the technical issue was processed.

14        Q.   In the appendix to the indictment of Momcilo Perisic, your name

15     appears:  Assistant Commander For Morale, Legal, and Religious Issues,

16     Colonel Kosta Novakovic.  Then it cites the autobiography I just showed

17     you:  "Colonel Novakovic stated that he served in the Serbian army of the

18     Krajina Main Staff, and his permanent address was Military Post 4001,

19     Belgrade."

20             As a factual matter, Mr. Novakovic, you were a subordinate of

21     Momcilo Perisic.  Isn't that correct?

22        A.   That is not correct.  As far as this document is concerned, it is

23     the document that you've just shown to me a moment ago.  That's the

24     document that we saw in the Serbian language, my CV.  Since this is a

25     pending trial that has not come to an end, I can tell you that it is not

Page 11759

 1     true.  No one in the 40th Personnel Center -- or rather, no one in the

 2     Main Staff of the RSK army was subordinated to General Momcilo Perisic,

 3     or the VJ army as such.  At no point in time was that the case.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Registrar,

 5     if could I have 1D61-0195 on the screen, please.

 6        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, you had occasion to travel to peace talks in

 7     Geneva in 1993.  Correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   I draw your attention to the screen here to one such meeting,

10     where the participants in a meeting in Geneva on military matters are

11     identified.

12             MR. MISETIC:  If we could scroll down, please, to the Serbian

13     delegation.

14        Q.   First of all, do you recall this meeting?

15        A.   Yes.  I do have my notes and I recall all the meets.

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... are you familiar with all of

17     these individuals?  Do you know who they are?

18        A.   Yes, of course.

19        Q.   Who is Bukovnik Milos Krnjeta?

20        A.   This is a colleague of mine who was in our Main Staff.

21        Q.   Who is Slobodan Lazarevic?

22        A.   Mr. Lazarevic was our interpreter.

23        Q.   When he wasn't a translator, what function did he have in

24     the RSK?

25        A.   He was in the 22nd Kordun unit, or he was the liaison officer

Page 11760

 1     there.  He was the liaison officer between the UNPROFOR command

 2     Sector North and the 22nd Kordun Corps.

 3        Q.   Was he also an intelligence officer?

 4        A.   I'm not aware of him being anything other than in an interpreter.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have on the screen

 6     1D41-0149.  And before I get an objection on the statements, I have put

 7     the matters to Mr. Novakovic that I wish to now to put to him with this

 8     statement.

 9        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, this is a statement given by Slobodan Lazarevic to

10     the Office of the Prosecutor, which I will now show you.

11             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go to, please, page --

12        Q.   Actually, without going through all the background in the

13     statement, Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Lazarevic testified that he was an

14     intelligence operative?

15             MR. MISETIC:  And if we could go to page 35 of his statement,

16     please.

17        Q.   He was asked by the Prosecution to identify various individuals?

18             If you lock at entry 22, according to Mr. Lazarevic, who was with

19     you in the Geneva delegation, Colonel Kosta Novakovic, he was a KOS

20     official.  He went to Knin from the 21st Corps in Topusko, now is working

21     for the VJ at the officer's academy.  He was running the with RSK army's

22     information centre in Knin.

23             Now, Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Lazarevic says you were, in fact, working

24     for KOS.  Were you, in fact, working for KOS while you were in the RSK?

25        A.   First of all, I had never been a KOS officer, or of the state

Page 11761

 1     security or the police, never ever.  This is it true.  It can be checked

 2     in various ways.

 3             Now would you please repeat your question, bit by bit.

 4        Q.   I think I have answered my question, Mr. Novakovic.

 5             Now, were you aware that the RSK intelligence services repeatedly

 6     tried to supply both the ECMM and the UN with misinformation?

 7        A.   No.  I didn't know that and I wasn't required to know that.

 8        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, you earlier said that Mr. Novakovic had

10     answered your question.  I would like to verify whether that is the case.

11             Mr. Novakovic, Mr. Misetic asked you whether, in fact, you were

12     working for KOS while you were in the RSK, because that's what apparently

13     Mr. Lazarevic says.

14             Then you answered:  "First of all, I had never been a KOS

15     officer, or of the state security or the police, never ever.  This is

16     true.  It can be checked in various ways."

17             Did you ever do anything at the request of KOS?  So, irrespective

18     of whether you were an officer where you were formally appointed, did you

19     ever perform anything of which you were aware that you did it for the

20     KOS?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, that is beyond any

22     doubt.  That would not be characteristic of my views and work.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  I am reminded that I failed to

25     tender 1D61-0195, which is the list of the participants in the Geneva

Page 11762

 1     meeting, and I tender that in evidence, please.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D922.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  D922 is admitted into evidence.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. MISETIC:

 9        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, interpreters working for the UN and ECMM who were

10     Serbs from the so-called Krajina were, in fact, working for the Serbian

11     intelligence services.  Correct?

12        A.   I'm not familiar with that.  However, I do know that it was the

13     other way around, that the Croatians who were, working as such, worked

14     for the Croatian agencies.  However, I do exclude that possibility fully.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please focus your answer on the question

16     that was put to you.  If at the end of your testimony you think that you

17     should add anything to your answers, then you will have an opportunity to

18     do so.

19             Please proceed.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Yes, Mr. Novakovic, earlier, when you were being questioned by

22     the Prosecution, on a couple of indications, you referred to the fact

23     that in your position, as a result of your position, you had intelligence

24     information, for example, on where HV troops were located, which

25     indicates that you, in fact, were communicating with RSK intelligence

Page 11763

 1     organs.

 2             Did you ever ask the RSK intelligence organs or come to find out

 3     what some of their sources were?

 4        A.   Whatever information was processed by intelligence, they sent to

 5     the operational organs.  I had access to the documents of the operational

 6     organs - that's how I came by that information - supplied to the

 7     immediate circle within the command; that is to say, the commander and

 8     his assistants.

 9        Q.   But you never got into or received any information in your

10     position as to what methods and sources RSK intelligence agencies had?

11        A.   No.  It is possible that I received such -- some information, but

12     not in that way.  To be specific, at our briefings, the operational

13     officer in charge would say, "This and that unit of the Croatian army is

14     in that area."  I never asked how he knew that, and it was not within my

15     competence to check.

16        Q.   Let's go to the 4th.

17             Mr. Novakovic, you say in your statement in 2001 at page 12 and

18     today you repeated it at page 28, line 8 of the transcript, something

19     about if the international community had intervened, then the Croatian

20     offensive would have been halted.

21             Please explain what it is exactly you mean "had the international

22     community intervened."  Were you expecting them to intervene?

23        A.   We were.  First of all, you need to know that we were a protected

24     area of the UN, and the name of UNPROFOR envisaged the existence of such

25     protection.

Page 11764

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have 65 ter 5955 on the

 2     screen, please.

 3        Q.   What I'm going to show you is the report on what happened during

 4     Operation Storm that was filed by General Mrksic to the chief of the

 5     Main Staff of the Yugoslav army on the 26th of August, 1995.

 6             Now, first, can you tell me why Mr. Mrksic is filing a report to

 7     the chief of the Main Staff of the Yugoslav army about Operation Storm?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  I have never seen this report before.

 9        Q.   Well, as someone who served in both the Yugoslav army and in the

10     RSK army, do you have any idea why General Mrksic would be reporting to

11     the chief of the Main Staff of the Yugoslav army, after Operation Storm,

12     about what happened in Operation Storm?

13        A.   I think it would be wise to ask him that.

14        Q.   Is it because he was also simultaneously an Yugoslav officer and

15     a Serb Krajina officer?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  I think the witness has already stated he has no

18     knowledge --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  No, he said -- as a matter of fact, I was about to

20     ask him to refrain from giving directions to whom to put questions.

21             You're invited to tell us, Mr. Novakovic, whether you had any

22     idea.  If you have please tell us, if you don't have, tell us as well.

23     But whether or not we should put that question to a different person is

24     another matter, which the parties will consider.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  There is also a mischaracterization in the

Page 11765

 1     question where he says "... simultaneously an Yugoslav officer and a Serb

 2     Krajina officer. " I think the answer of the witness was clear.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any idea why General Mrksic reported to

 4     the chief of the Main Staff of the Yugoslav army.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I truly don't know

 6     that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing I can add is that I

 9     never submitted any reports to anyone concerning my sector.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could go to page 28 in the

12     English first, please.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I have a 24-page document for this one, but --

14             MR. MISETIC:  I have 29.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  I have 24, as well, in e-court.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  In e-court, I have got 24.

17             MR. MISETIC:  Well, it's numbered page 28 of 29 on the bottom, so

18     that is what I meant.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Which, of course, raises other puzzles:  Where

20     are the missing pages?

21             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  If you put the questions to the witness, then --

23             MR. HEDARALY:  It's page 23, Your Honour, of the English in

24     e-court.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Page 23.

Page 11766

 1             MR. MISETIC:  I just want it make sure that the Serbian version

 2     is also up for the witness.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it.

 4             MR. MISETIC:

 5        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, if you look at the, in your screen, the second

 6     paragraph.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  And in the English, it is the second

 8     paragraph under section 19.

 9        Q.   "The army of the Serbian Krajina was and still is considered a

10     part of the VJ, Yugoslav army.  It was doing everything it could, but it

11     has remained isolated.  We think that the Main Staff of the Yugoslav army

12     should have supported development of the army of the Serbian Krajina in a

13     more courageous and determined way."

14             Now, the army of the Serbian Krajina was, in fact, considered a

15     part of the Yugoslav army.  Correct?

16        A.   It needn't be correct what Mr. Mrksic reports, whether it was

17     considered a part of the VJ and whether the VJ actually saw things that

18     way.  Mr. Mrksic wrote this some 20 days after the tragic events, and it

19     is questionable what he meant by that.

20             If we thought we were part of the VJ, that doesn't necessarily

21     mean that the VJ shared that view.  Wishes of ours are one thing, and the

22     treatment on their part is another, and that can be concluded from this.

23        Q.   Let's start there.  You say:  "If we thought we were part of the

24     VJ, that doesn't necessarily mean that the VJ shared that view."  So you

25     thought you were part of the VJ.  Correct?

Page 11767

 1        A.   You misunderstand me.  I said that if we wished for that, not

 2     believed that to be the case.

 3        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... why did you wish to be part

 4     of the Yugoslav army?

 5        A.   If the Croatian army had the Croatian Defence Council and the

 6     army of Bosnia and Herzegovina on their side, it would have been natural

 7     for us to have the VJ on ours.

 8        Q.   On the 3rd of August, or throughout July 1995, how many people,

 9     for example, in the civilian and military leadership of the so-called

10     RSK, had a wish to, for example, become part of a Croatian army?

11        A.   I don't think that was the case.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if we could turn to page 14 of this

13     document, please.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if pages 19 to 23 are missing in the

15     translation, at least in the numbering at the bottom of the page.

16             MR. MISETIC:  I'm now told that I'm using the document that was

17     disclosed to us by Office of the OTP, and what was uploaded into e-court

18     by OTP under 65 ter is missing those four pages.  So we will obviously

19     add those at the earliest opportunity.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

21             MR. MISETIC:

22        Q.   Estimate and course of combat activities -- actually, I think we

23     are ing section 4.1, it should be, in the Serbian.

24             Now, it says, and you have mentioned now this, that,

25     internationally, you were waiting for international intervention:  "It

Page 11768

 1     was foresighted by the plan of defence that the SVK units in the western

 2     part of the Republic of Serbian Krajina would carry out combat activities

 3     for six to eight days.  It was estimated that this would be possible on

 4     condition of establishing encirclement and caring of persistent defence.

 5             And if you scroll down a few lines, it reads:  "It was estimated

 6     that within six to eight days, a reaction by international factors, or

 7     even probably VRS or VJ intervention, would have occurred."

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Now, if we could go to page 3 of this document as

 9     well, in the paragraph that begins:  "The aggression was expected ..."

10             I believe we're not on the right page in the Serbian.  Yes.

11        Q.   It says:  "The aggression was expected, and the Main Staff

12     directed the main focus of their work on preparing the units to defend

13     their positions, regions, and areas resolutely for five to civilian days,

14     believing that that would be enough for the international factors and, if

15     necessary, even the Yugoslav army, to react.  Certain conditions were

16     established for such a use of the SVK units (ammunition had been secured,

17     small reserves had been established, fortification and obstacles had been

18     created, and the population had been prevented from moving out ...)"

19             Now, Mr. Novakovic, one of the fundamental elements of the plan

20     of the so-called army of Serbian Krajina to defend against the Croatian

21     offensive was to draw in the international community to stop it.

22             Correct?  That was a fundamental element of your plan.

23        A.   Well, I don't know why there would have been such a need, since

24     the international community had already participated in the conflict.

25     They offered their assistance in terms of the Vance-Owen Plan until an

Page 11769

 1     amicable political solution could be found.  That is why there was this

 2     presumption that the international community would take part.

 3        Q.   My question is quite specific:  Your plan was to hold out for six

 4     to eight days and wait or try to get intervention from either the

 5     international community, the army of the Republika Srpska, or the

 6     Yugoslav army.  Isn't that correct?

 7        A.   Well, planning is one thing, an implementation is another, as

 8     seen here.  I didn't see any specific parts of the plan, but I do know

 9     that such -- some such elements were contained in the plan.

10             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, I ask that this exhibit be marked,

11     and I tender it into evidence.

12             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D923.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  D923 is admitted into evidence.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Now, along those lines, Mr. Novakovic, I'd like to show you a

18     video.

19             MR. MISETIC:  This is 1D61-0247.  This is Mr. Martic on the

20     2nd of August.

21                           [Videotape played]

22                           [Technical Difficulty]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Do we have a similar sound problem as we had before.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, what about an early break, so that the

Page 11770

 1     matter be resolve during the break.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And we resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.

 4             Mr. Novakovic, due to these technical problems, the Chamber

 5     decides to have a bit earlier as planned our break.

 6             We resume at 20 minutes to 1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic have you checked if the problem's been

10     resolved.

11             MR. MISETIC:  They have been, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it we also know for next time what to

13     do to prevent it.

14             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Again, Mr. Novakovic, this is a video of Mr. Martic on the 2nd of

18     August on TV Knin.  If we could play it, please.

19                           [Videotape played]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "I surely wouldn't be amongst the

21     living nor with any of you, nor do we have much of a choice; and we are

22     simply destined to win.  For this reason, when any state interest is at

23     stake the sole priority should be Defence and on my behalf as the

24     president, I have the support of the Parliament and the government in

25     that the priorities should be the army and defence.  Croatia will most

Page 11771

 1     likely conduct new aggression towards the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 2     We attempted to delay this by agreements and negotiations in order for it

 3     to be avoided.  However their position is precisely to gain support for a

 4     military solution in order to stabilize themselves within and you know

 5     how much instability they're suffering, but if we schedule and I

 6     sincerely hope this will be the case, and we wait as a host and defeat

 7     them, then our recognition will be truly imminent.  The RSK that we then

 8     become the utmost reality.  It would be realistic that we be recognised

 9     world-wide and that Croatia be defeated.  They would forced to shake our

10     hands and say the RSK exists."

11             MR. MISETIC:  Now, Mr. Novakovic, you heard Mr. Martic there

12     before the break you said that there indeed were such elements contained

13     in the plan concerning getting the international community involved in

14     preventing the offensive.  However, here, I'd like to ask you that was

15     also one of the topics discussed the fact that if the HV launched an

16     offensive and you were able to hold out that that was a means of

17     obtaining international recognition of the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

18     so-called.

19        A.   Possibly.  I'm not familiar with all the details.

20        Q.   Well, you were a relatively high-ranking individual in the

21     leadership.  Were you ever involved in discussions where one of the

22     strategy considers was to in fact as Mr. Martic put it, Wait as a host

23     for the attack, hold off and then by that, invite the international

24     community to recognise the independence of the so-called Republika Srpska

25     Krajina?  Were you ever a participant in such discussions?

Page 11772

 1        A.   I attended quite a few meetings.  However, this particular one I

 2     wouldn't be able to pinpoint who the audience is and where this is.

 3     Apparently this was a group of fighters that Martic addressed, and he

 4     addressed them.  He was extemporizing, it seems to me, and I don't think

 5     that he was expressing a political view.

 6        Q.   I'm not asking if you were present at this particular discussion.

 7     What I'm saying is were you present for any discussion where that topic

 8     was discussed?  In other words, using an eventual Croatian offensive as a

 9     justification later for international recognition?

10        A.   I didn't hear anything along those lines being specified.

11             MR. MISETIC:  [Previous translation continues] ... into evidence.

12     It is --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

14             MR. HEDARALY:  I missed part because of the overlap.  Is that the

15     video that is being tendered?

16             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  That is what I understand.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  No objection.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit number D924.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  D924 is admitted into evidence.  Does that include

22     the transcript?

23             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Both in English and in the original?

25             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, it does.

Page 11773

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, now I have forgotten to say -- no I said it's

 2     admitted into evidence.  Yes, please proceed.

 3             MR. MISETIC:

 4        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, we -- we talking about this international

 5     involvement.  And let me first call up D327, which is -- actually we

 6     don't need the video.  You've already testified this morning that you

 7     received a phone call or your liaison officer received a phone call

 8     before the assault started where you were told by someone in UNCRO or

 9     your liaison officer was told by someone at UNCRO that the attack would

10     start at 5.00 a.m.

11             Was your liaison officer an individual by the last name of

12     Kalapac?

13        A.   Yes, Mr. Mladen Kalapac.

14        Q.   And you mentioned, I believe in your statement, you say that in

15     your 2001 statement at page 9 you describe the source, Mr. Kalapac's

16     source as "a responsible official who requested Mr. Kalapac to convey

17     this information to me," was that responsible information, in fact,

18     Colonel Andrew Leslie?

19        A.   I'm not sure.  He did mention a name, though.  He did mention

20     someone I believe to be a person of authority.  It is possible, but I'm

21     not sure.

22        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... on the screen General

23     Leslie's statement via Sanction.

24             Now General Leslie gave a statement to the Office of the

25     Prosecutor at line 20, he says:

Page 11774

 1             "At around 5.30 in the morning I received a phone call in my

 2     office from a Captain Karlopac [phoen]...

 3             "His first name here it's written, 'Vladen.'  I'm sorry, but I

 4     don't know how to spell that.  Captain Karlopac was a liaison officer

 5     located in the ARSK headquarters."

 6             Do you know, generally speaking if Colonel Leslie's --

 7     Mr. Karlopac had a good relationship with Colonel Leslie?

 8        A.   His name is not Karlopac but Karapac, and his first name was

 9     Mladen.  I'm not aware of what their relations were.  I know that

10     professionally they had to with be in touch perhaps as many as ten times

11     a day and this was the case not only with him but with other UNPROFOR

12     officers as well.

13        Q.   How many other -- was that the only -- was there one contact that

14     Karlopac received from UN Sector South or were there more before the

15     operation began?

16             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm -- sorry, Your Honour, when I read this, it

17     says that General Leslie received a call from Mr. Karlopac at 5.30, so I

18     just want to make sure -- because I'm getting confused, so I don't want

19     the witness to be confused by the question.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic when reading this, it is about

21     Mr. Karlopac or Karapac calling Mr. Leslie.

22             MR. MISETIC:  I'm now referring to the witness's own statement

23     where he says that Mr. Karlopac was called by someone there in UN

24     Sector South.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Just take it one step at a time so we can all

Page 11775

 1     follow clearly because he just had the statement and on the screen we

 2     still have General Leslie's statement.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, will do his utmost best to avoid

 4     further confusion.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. MISETIC:

 7        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, you testified that Mr. Karlopac received a

 8     telephone call from UN Sector South.  My question is was it the only

 9     phone call were there one phone call before the operation began, were

10     there multiple phone calls advising the army of the so-called Republika

11     Srpska Krajina that the attack would begin at 5.00 a.m.?

12        A.   I know of the call that I told you about which took place at 4.00

13     or 4.15, roughly.  I can tell you that there was information which

14     perhaps was not verified that some people from the UNPROFOR command in

15     Zagreb called around midnight.  I'm not sure whether is this an accurate

16     report or not.  I did, however, say that over the last two days, there

17     were many calls, some were benevolent others were malevolent.  I know

18     about this one at 4.15.

19        Q.   You testified this morning that you were an officer in charge of

20     religious affairs.  I think you mentioned the orchestra.

21        A.   First of all for information and then for legal and religious

22     affairs.

23        Q.   Can you explain where the UNCRO Sector South would contact you.

24     Why were you the person who was contacted at 4.15 in the morning.

25        A.   I will have to repeat my function then.  I think I said that I in

Page 11776

 1     no unclear terms that I was assistant commander for information, legal

 2     affairs, religious affairs, and relations or cooperation with

 3     international organisations.  In other words, my sector was in charge

 4     with direct contacts with all representatives of all international

 5     organisations; namely, UNPROFOR, Red Cross, the High Commission, and all

 6     the other international organisations present in the area.

 7        Q.   Did you find it unusual that the UN Sector South was giving you

 8     information in advance about a military operation that was about to

 9     commence at 5.00 a.m.?

10        A.   I don't think so.  Why?

11        Q.   Well, as you've just said, you are the officer in charge of

12     liaising with the international organisations.  Do you consider it a

13     violation of UN neutrality for the UN to advise one party in the conflict

14     that the party is about to launch an operation against it?

15        A.   Why would that be the case?  Well, if we are now unfolding the

16     story, we should go back to 1st May.

17        Q.   Generally speaking, you had --

18        A.   Didn't UNPROFOR receive information from the Croatian side that

19     the Croatian side would launch an attack?

20        Q.   Yes, it did.

21        A.   Well, then, they shouldn't have done so.  If the Croatian side

22     had informed them about it, then they should have passed the information

23     on.  The UNPROFOR didn't have to be neutral.  Why would UNPROFOR protect

24     any side?  Why don't you interpret for yourself the very title of

25     UNPROFOR?

Page 11777

 1        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... UNCRO at the time.  But

 2     putting that aside, okay?

 3        A.   Yes, fine.

 4        Q.   UNCRO, you understand, was not allowed to take sides in the

 5     conflict.  You understand that principle.  Correct?

 6        A.   Well, I do, yes.

 7        Q.   Now, the fact that you were able to receive this information from

 8     UNCRO in advance was something that was a result of the fact that you had

 9     developed good relations with some of the UNCRO officers in Sector South.

10     Correct?

11        A.   I don't think that's the reason why.  There's another reason, and

12     if you will allow me, I will explain.  After all, I am familiar with this

13     because I followed this issue.

14             UNCRO did have a guilty conscience over events that unfolded in

15     Western Slavonia, and they did want to take some of that guilt burden off

16     their shoulders.  However, even many of the Croatian sources revealed

17     that through interception the intelligence structures were able to learn

18     that an attack was imminent.  This was not a surprise.

19        Q.   Follow on that, earlier you established that part of the plan,

20     indeed, involvement of the international -- the international community.

21             I'd like it show you now Exhibit D389, please, talking about

22     intelligence information again.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, just for your information, there is a

24     correction that has been made, and we forwarded to our colleagues in the

25     OTP, in the English translation of this document.  We would ask

Page 11778

 1     permission to upload the corrected version which is not yet in e-court.

 2             But I will take him through it, and I can --

 3        Q.   Let me show you, Mr. Novakovic.  This is an intelligence report

 4     from Colonel Mihajl Knezovic, on the 4th of August, talking about the HV

 5     artillery assault.

 6             If you look at the fourth paragraph, when it talks about what was

 7     hit and the amount of rounds, it says:  "By the time this information was

 8     drafted," which is sometime after 10.00 a.m. on the 4th, and you know

 9     that because the paragraph beneath, it talks about, "at 1000 hours,"

10     something happened.

11        A.   Fine.

12        Q.   It says:  "By the time that information was drafted, between 200

13     and 300 rounds ever different calibres impacted on the town.  The first

14     strike was carried out on the building of the SVK General Staff, which

15     suffered great material damage, with the fleet of vehicles almost

16     completely destroyed.  Later, the fire was transferred on the military

17     barracks 1300 Kaplara ."

18             And that is the northern barracks, correct?

19        A.   I don't know the name of the barracks.  That was probably its

20     proper name.

21        Q.   "The railway intersection," and here is where the translation

22     error takes place.  In the original, it says, "... and residential

23     buildings in the area beneath the Knin fortress," not residential

24     buildings "and" the area beneath the Knin fortress.

25             Now, you've just told us that you would receive intelligence

Page 11779

 1     information.  Did you receive this intelligence report as -- as part of

 2     your job to liaise with UNCRO Sector South, did you receive this

 3     intelligence report from Colonel Knezovic?

 4        A.   No.  I have never seen the information before.  I was in a

 5     separate building, and up until the 4th, I was exclusively in contact

 6     with the commander and the individuals who came to see me.  I wasn't in

 7     touch with other commanders or assistants.  Every one of the assistants,

 8     for instance, Mr. Knezovic, was in charge of intelligence.  They were

 9     each in charge of their areas of work.  I can see that this was his own

10     personal assessment that fire could not be opened from the Livran [phoen]

11     plateau.

12             Well, at any rate, he had information that he received.  I

13     received information from my commander who used other sources.  My source

14     of information were also people who came to see me and who were went

15     about town.  I had my collaborators, if you will, in town, who produced a

16     recording.  I don't know that I had this piece of information, but this

17     is common knowledge.  I was aware of this information through my

18     commander.

19        Q.   So you were aware of this information through General Mrksic.  Is

20     that correct?

21        A.   He didn't say this in so many words, but he conveyed to me the

22     gist of it.  He didn't tell me that it was Knezovic, but when I came to

23     see him, he told me what this was all about.

24        Q.   Concerning what was happening in the town of Knin, give me names

25     of people who were giving you information about what was happening in the

Page 11780

 1     town of Knin.  You mentioned your associates or assistants, but give me

 2     names.  Who?

 3        A.   As I said, primarily the commander.  One of the men was Tihomir

 4     Vlaonja.  He was my deputy.

 5        Q.   Anyone else?

 6        A.   Up there, there was another man, Trgovcevic, who was chief of the

 7     division for the cooperation with international organisations, Mr. Milan

 8     Trgovcevic.  He was formerly a military attache.  The others were not

 9     there, but quite a few journalists came, as did people from other

10     structure:  Mr. Babic, whom I mentioned, from the Ministry of Defence --

11        Q.   Let me ask another question.  By 8.00 a.m., by 8.00 a.m., who

12     were your sources about what was happening in Knin?

13        A.   My personal knowledge, my personal observations, and the sources

14     from the commander and our operation centre, as well as from my

15     associates.  How shall I explain this?  I was an open-type structure.

16     One could freely access the office where I was.  Journalists would drop

17     by, as well as people who observed things happening in Knin.  As for the

18     information concerning units, I could receive that from my commander.

19        Q.   What kind of information could you be getting from units in Knin?

20     Were there units in Knin that were providing information to General

21     Mrksic?

22        A.   Well, no, not in Knin.  The nearest command was perhaps some ten

23     kilometres away from Knin.  There weren't any units in Knin.

24        Q.   So there are no units in Knin.  So General Mrksic presumably

25     then, according to you, is not receiving intelligence about what is

Page 11781

 1     happening in Knin from units that aren't in Knin, obviously.  Correct?

 2        A.   No, no.  Units never did provide that sort of information.  There

 3     was no reason for units to be in Knin.

 4        Q.   Well, this report from the intelligence department, you see,

 5     doesn't mention, for example, the hospital has been shelled.  Correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Other than some residential buildings in the area beneath the

 8     Knin fortress, it doesn't mention shelling of other residential areas in

 9     other parts of town.  Correct?

10        A.   Well, this isn't what this particular individual said, but others

11     did.

12        Q.   In terms of the intelligence assessment of your own army, there

13     was nothing in the intelligence report that said that there was shelling

14     of residential areas, other than a reference to residential buildings in

15     the area beneath the Knin fortress.  Correct?

16        A.   Well, depending on the time when he wrote this.  I can't see the

17     exact time when he wrote the report.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]  It was perhaps --

20             MR. HEDARALY:  I just wondered on the question that "of your own

21     army," if it is of this report from the army, that question is correct.

22     But now he is expanding the question based on just this document.  We

23     don't know whether there were other reports or not.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think, as a matter of fact, the matter is

25     clear.  That's what the witness said.  He, more or less, said, Yes, we do

Page 11782

 1     not find this in this report.  Even if he would have said otherwise, the

 2     Chamber is able to read a report.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... establish that with him,

 4     because --

 5        Q.   Now, let me turn your attention, Mr. Novakovic, to D331.

 6        A.   I apologise.  May I give a comment on this document, if you wish

 7     me to.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'm not asking you to do it.  If at the end

 9     you would like to add anything, please do so; but listen to the next

10     question.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Thank you.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, in D311, the original is in French;

13     however, if we could have the English and the B/C/S on the screen,

14     please.

15        Q.   This is the UN archives, Mr. Novakovic, and it`s a notation of a

16     conversation you had by telephone with General Janvier on the morning of

17     the 4th, where you were conveying a message from General Mrksic.

18             And if you look, you say, in paragraph 5, you told General

19     Janvier:  "They targeted the immediate vicinity of the UNPROFOR

20     Sector South command using direct fire.

21             "They also targeted the hospital and other similar buildings,

22     firing randomly and without any order.  UNPROFOR officers located there

23     can confirm these claims."

24             What was your basis on the morning of the 4th, given the

25     intelligence assessment looked at on the screen, what was your basis for

Page 11783

 1     telling General Janvier that the HV was targeting the hospital.

 2        A.   The intelligence was certainly not the main source.  I said, at

 3     the beginning, that shelling was random and that was the impression we

 4     had, and we believed that UNPROFOR shared that impression.

 5             Several hundred shells landed in a very short span of time, and

 6     this was the communication which took place after 5.00.  That was our

 7     impression, Mrksic conveyed it to me, I was probably with him at that

 8     time, and we passed this information on to General Janvier.

 9             We addressed their command because we trusted that they would

10     check this through General Forand.  If I had possibly made a mistake, he

11     could have checked that through his commander.

12        Q.   Well, first, let's take this step by step.  What was the specific

13     piece of information that was the basis of the claim that the hospital

14     was being targeted?  Who is the person who witnessed this?

15        A.   First of all, our units that he were closest to Knin, I said that

16     there were some ten kilometres away, they followed the developments

17     through radar and their stations.  All the officers who were billeted

18     chose to the command who were housed in the old people's home could

19     notice that, as well as those who resided close to the Knin fortress.

20             Knin is a small town, three by two or three by three kilometres,

21     and one could observe the events from the slopes and from where the area

22     where the fortress is.

23        Q.   You were, in fact, giving misinformation to General Janvier as

24     part of plan to draw in the international community.  Correct?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 11784

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we just ask again Mr. Misetic to make a pause,

 2     because I'm hearing the overlap as well in between the translations, and

 3     it is it hard to follow.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  I'm following the transcript, Your Honour, so I'm

 6     trying to monitor my speed by following the court reporter.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you please repeat your question, nevertheless.

 8             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 9        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, I'm going to put it to you that you, in fact, were

10     providing misinformation to General Janvier in an effort to draw in the

11     international community, to stop the HV offence which was, as you

12     testified earlier, an element of the defence plan.  Correct?

13        A.   That's not correct.  This is an untrue assertion.

14             General Janvier did not have to trust us fully.  He had his

15     organs out in the field who could confirm that.  There was the UN

16     Sector South command there.  They were on an elevation and were -- had a

17     clear vantage point to allow them to have all the information, to see all

18     the shells.  They had all the instruments and mechanisms necessary for

19     that.

20             We didn't even have to give any information to General Janvier

21     since he had a subordinate general who could always check the information

22     without any problems.

23        Q.   That's --

24        A.   Those were our impressions, that was our view of the situation,

25     but they had the person number two there as a sort of supervisor who

Page 11785

 1     could check that.

 2        Q.   Precisely.  This is precisely the area that I want to go into

 3     next, Mr. Novakovic, because General Forand, in fact, at least from the

 4     evidence in the file thus far, reported nothing to the UNCRO or UNPROFOR

 5     command in Zagreb about shelling of civilian areas prior to a meeting

 6     with you at 10.00 a.m.

 7             Are you aware of that?

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  I --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  The question is whether the witness is aware of it,

10     Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Well, I'm more worried about the

12     misrepresentation.  I can check, but isn't there a letter sent in the

13     morning of the 5th about --

14             MR. MISETIC:  No.  Your Honours, we went through this with

15     General Forand.  The first UN --

16             MR. RUSSO:  I --

17             MR. MISETIC:  I will wait for Mr. Russo.

18             Let me continue.  Mr. Russo I think has to hear me.

19             Before 1.00 p.m. on the 4th, there is no UN sitrep mentioning

20     shelling of civilian areas, and the issue of the letter to General

21     Gotovina being written was extensively dealt with the examination of

22     General Forand who said it was certainly after 10.00 a.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  The question was awareness of the witness.  Let's

24     hear his answer.  Perhaps you'd repeat the question, Mr. Misetic.

25             MR. MISETIC:

Page 11786

 1        Q.   Mr. Novakovic, prior to your meeting at 10.00 a.m. with General

 2     Forand, UN Sector South headquarters had not reported up its chain of

 3     command that there was any shelling of civilian areas in Knin.  Were you

 4     aware of that at the time that you had the meeting at 10.00 a.m.?

 5        A.   I don't think it was so.  When General Forand came, he said that

 6     this was not fair and he knew for certain that civilian targets were

 7     being hit.  Since I did a lot of research, I also read some material

 8     containing Mr. Forand's lecture to some Canadian officers in

 9     October 1995.  General Forand described precisely what took place.  He

10     lectured a group of Canadian officers upon his return to Canada in

11     October 1995.  He mentions precisely the shelling of civilian targets,

12     and, to conclude, he could also see it with his own eyes, as did his

13     representatives.

14        Q.   Let me ask you:  How did you get into possession of General

15     Forand's assessment?

16        A.   I don't know.  In any case, I had an opportunity to read it.  I

17     read it in Knin.  I don't know how I got it.  I had a version in English

18     and in Serbian.

19        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... General Forand's materials,

20     but you have no idea where you got these materials from?

21        A.   I don't.  I don't know.

22        Q.   Well, in your statement, in 2001, you said, at page 9, that

23     General Forand undertook to do everything in his power to stop the

24     targeting of civilian areas.  Then today, at page 32, lines 8 to 10, you

25     said that General Forand promised to intervene through the UNPROFOR or

Page 11787

 1     command in Zagreb.

 2        A.   It is correct that he promised that he would intervene.  It may

 3     have been my impression that he did.  In any case, that what he had

 4     promised.

 5        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... after his promise to

 6     intervene, are you aware of what steps General Forand took, but to

 7     "intervene with the UNPROFOR command in Zagreb"?

 8        A.   I'm not familiar with this.

 9        Q.   Well, you seem to have some materials from General Forand.  Are

10     you aware of a letter that General Forand allegedly sent to General

11     Gotovina on the 4th?

12        A.   I'm not.  I have not seen or heard of it.

13        Q.   Well, when you say that General Forand promised to intervene at

14     this meeting at 10.00 a.m., did he tell you that he had already

15     intervened before 10.00 a.m.?

16        A.   No.  He did not come out with such information.  He acted in

17     accordance with his position and principles and provided no information.

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... statement at page 9, you

19     say:  "After that meeting, I proceeded to the Knin hospital in an UN

20     APC."

21             Why did you go in an UN APC to the Knin hospital?

22        A.   There was no other way.  I don't remember that particular detail,

23     whether I asked to go or whether someone from UNPROFOR suggested that,

24     when General Forand was coming.

25             In the personnel carrier, it was Colonel Ratsouk and -- in any

Page 11788

 1     case, the crew was two officers and soldiers.

 2        Q.   Why were you going?  Why did you go with these UN personnel?

 3        A.   We wanted to see what the situation was and what UNPROFOR could

 4     do to assist the wounded.  Electricity was out and there were numerous

 5     other problems.  We already had information that the hospital had been

 6     hit, as, indeed, it was, although I don't know at what point in time.

 7        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... who else?

 8        A.   Two officers and two soldiers were there.  I don't know whether

 9     they came from the French or Canadian contingent; but in any case, there

10     was UNPROFOR APC.

11        Q.   Did you also at this meeting with General Forand get his

12     agreement to use an UN APC to film the damage that was being caused to

13     the town?

14        A.   Well, I don't think it could have been done by anyone else,

15     except for General Forand.  In any case, it seems that somebody needed to

16     go to the hospital, and there was a suggestion made that I board the APC.

17     It probably went via the General.

18        Q.   You know what Zastava Films is.  Correct?

19        A.   Yes, very well.

20        Q.   It's a military/JNA film production company.  Correct?

21        A.   It is a production company which, for the most part, produced

22     educational-material films and short features, and perhaps can I explain

23     in detail further.

24        Q.   It's owned by the military.  Correct?  It was in 1995, let's put

25     it that way.

Page 11789

 1        A.   It was always a half-military/half civilian entity.

 2        Q.   Now, on the 4th of August, did Zastava Film get to use an UN APC

 3     to film in the town?

 4        A.   No.  They filmed without an APC.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, turning your attention now to the evacuation

 6     order.  I'd like to play for you D326, please.

 7                           [Videotape played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "on a large scale, at approximately

 9     5.00 on the 4th of August, 1995, representatives of the civilian

10     authorities gathered at Matic's office.  Matic was in uniform, and there

11     was an ashtray and several packs of cigarettes in front of him.  We

12     exchanged our helloes.  And on the topic of the events, he decided he

13     wanted to evacuate the city, and we should take steps to relocate the

14     civilian population; I must stress the civilian from Northern Dalmatia,

15     meaning from the municipalities of Benkovac, Obrovac, Knin, and Drnis,

16     and from the municipality of Gracac and Lika.

17             "This did not come as a shock to me.  I perceived this to be some

18     of a rationale measure.  At that moment we passed the order, Kosta

19     Novakovic specifically passed the order.  It was then that when we wrote

20     in the order that to protect the civilian population that they take the

21     correction of Knin, Otric, Srb, or Lapac, which are the areas to which

22     the people to be relocated.

23             "It is then Mrksic said, 'What do you mean Srb?  We need to go

24     further than that, towards Petrovac and Banja Luka.'  Then he cautioned

25     us, that if the civilians embarked on leaving, that the military lines

Page 11790

 1     would be at risk.  He said, 'If the civilians start, the army will go

 2     after them to evacuate them, and we're going have big problems.'

 3             "However, sometime during the evening, when he arrived, Mrksic

 4     was somewhere on the upper floor.  He told me, on the staircase, that the

 5     evacuation of the population been ordered.  I told him, 'General, the

 6     army will fall apart.  What do you mean by evacuating the people by this

 7     in means of an order.'  He said, "This is not in our hands.  It was the

 8     Supreme Defence Council that decided.'

 9             "Then someone had requested Martic, or it was Martic trying to

10     talk to Slobo, but, rather, he spoke with Brane Cmcevic.  He got hold of

11     Brano Cmcevic who assured him that -- well, he probably couldn't get a

12     hold of Slobo, and that's why he spoke to Brane.  He said no steps would

13     be taken, but Slobo would do nothing.  Then for the first time, I heard

14     that it was Martic cursing Slobo."

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was waiting for the last line to be

16     translated, which I saw as well, but it seems to not be vital one.

17             Please proceed.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Novakovic, you say Drago Kovacevic saying on that say

20     that, in fact, although what was written in the order was to go to Srb,

21     what, in fact, said at the meeting was go to further to Petrovac and

22     Banja Luka.

23             That is, in fact, what happened at that meeting, isn't it,

24     Mr. Novakovic?

25        A.   I did not hear that.  I don't think that can been at face value.

Page 11791

 1     Drago Kovacevic wrote a book in which he states that there were some

 2     others present, although I know there were known, because I was in the

 3     office before he came.  I know him well, and it doesn't necessarily mean

 4     that what he says is correct.  I can guarantee that there was no

 5     discussion beyond what we had agreed on.  Mrksic even stressed that since

 6     the Main Staff was to be relocated to Srb, we were supposed to make

 7     decisions on what to do with the population there and then.

 8             There was another meeting which was at 8.30 in the afternoon --

 9     in the evening, when tasks were being issued to the military, and there

10     was no mention of the population being moved.

11        Q.   We'll follow on that, Mr. Novakovic.  But, first, if we could go

12     back to D923, please, page 13 in the B/C/S, and page 21 in the English,

13     please.  This is again General Mrksic's report from the 26th of August.

14             MR. MISETIC:  If we could go towards the middle of the page in

15     English.

16        Q.   Now, General Mrksic writes:  "The evacuation could not be

17     prevented and stopped with any authorities or commanding measures.  After

18     the fall of Western Slavonia, there were many accusations at the expense

19     of the authority, the president of the republic, because the evacuation

20     was not ordered earlier."

21             Mr. Novakovic, on the afternoon of the 4th, isn't it true that at

22     the meetings you attended, one of the concerns was that you did not want

23     to be accused, as the leadership had been accused in Western Slavonia, of

24     not ordering the evacuation fast enough?

25        A.   No, no.  There was no discussion about that, at all.  The

Page 11792

 1     evacuation followed subsequently for the reasons I have explained.  In

 2     particular, because, by that time, a part of the civilian population had

 3     been on the move, and some ordered needed to be introduced in the

 4     evacuation process.  I already said that at 8.00 in the morning, the

 5     people started moving from the country to the city.  And --

 6        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

 7        A.   -- by -- the entire municipality of Plaski was evacuated by that

 8     point in time.

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, could you please avoid overlaps.

11             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I'm between a -- well, how to express

12     it.  I want to make sure that we stay focussed on the question and answer

13     while I'm also have this dilemma about the translation, but I'm only

14     intervening in an effort to keep us moving forward.

15             If we could go to Exhibit D337, Mr. Registrar.

16        Q.   First of all, this is, as you can see, Mr. Novakovic, a report

17     from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan on the 4th of August in the evening.

18             MR. MISETIC:  And paragraph 4, please.

19        Q.   Now, here the report is that -- you have -- "there has been a

20     request from the Knin leadership to evacuate approximately 32.000

21     civilians from Benkovac, Obrovac, Gracac, and Knin to Petrovac and Banja

22     Luka in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

23             Now, let me -- in an effort to speed this up, I won't show you

24     again, Mr. Hedaraly showed you Mr. Ratsouk's report from the same day

25     where he mentions that you had told him that the final destinations were

Page 11793

 1     Petrovac and Banja Luka.

 2             You mentioned this morning Drago Vujatovic was present with you

 3     at this meeting with General Forand.  And you recall that Drago Vujatovic

 4     was the head of the civil protection for the municipality of Knin.

 5     Correct?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have on the screen,

 8     please, 1D61-0051.

 9        Q.   This is Mr. Vujatovic's statement to the Office of the

10     Prosecutor, Mr. Novakovic.

11             And if we could go to page 6 in the English, which is

12     paragraph 28.  It's page 8 in the B/C/S.

13             At paragraph 28, Mr. Novakovic, here's what Mr. Vujatovic told

14     the Office of the Prosecutor:  "At around 5.00 p.m., I was called to a

15     meeting by Kosta Novakovic by phone at the army hall in Knin."  He then

16     mentioned some of the other individuals who you've identified.  And says

17     the commander of Sector -- UN forces Sector South and his two associates

18     were also there.

19             Towards the middle of the paragraph, it says:  "Then Novakovic

20     read out an evacuation order that he stated was signed by Milan Martic.

21     I recall that Novakovic then dictated to me, and I refer to my notes here

22     from the time, the routes of evacuation for the population.  Padjene

23     would be the collection point, the first place where everyone should go,

24     and then wait for instructions there.  Next point was Srb, and from then

25     he population was to proceed to Martin Brod.  The town of Drvar in Bosnia

Page 11794

 1     was to be avoided at all costs because it was being shelled.  From there,

 2     the" --

 3             MR. MISETIC:  On to page 9, please, in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   "From there, the population was to go to Doljani, Petrovac, and

 5     finally Banja Luka, which was the final destination."

 6             Mr. Novakovic, this is an official of the so-called RSK who has

 7     told the Office of the Prosecutor that it was you who dictated the

 8     evacuation route, and it was you who said that the final destinations

 9     were Doljani, Petrovac, and Banja Luka.

10             Now, isn't it true that at this meeting you told the UN and your

11     fellow associates at the meeting that the evacuation was to be carried

12     out, to go to Padjene, Srb, Martin Brod, Doljani, Petrovac and

13     Banja Luka?

14        A.   That is absolutely incorrect.  I never mentioned Padjene.  That

15     was not within my purview.  I only read out the decision.  That was the

16     scope of my limitations there.  I read it out.

17             I was not personally interested in Drago Vujatovic because he was

18     a municipal representative.  Mr. Babic and his associates were of

19     importance to me, because they were supposed to take it over.  I wasn't

20     tasked with passing down the tasks to the lower levels.  I read out the

21     decision, and I said that there were 15 to 20 people there.  I only read

22     out the text of the decision without any comment, and I said who signed

23     it.

24             Not only did I read it but I held it out and people could come

25     and see it for themselves.  There was no mention of any other routes.  As

Page 11795

 1     to how it was later implemented by certain other individuals, that's

 2     another matter.

 3        Q.   Well, now let's ask the factual matter -- what actually

 4     transpired after this.  It turns out that the people actually -- the

 5     civilian population did go to Srb, and from there to Martin Brod, and

 6     from there to Petrovac, and then to Banja Luka, right?  That is actually

 7     what did take place.

 8        A.   That is correct.

 9        Q.   So let me make sure that you have been given every opportunity,

10     Mr. Novakovic.  In addition to the fact that it turns out that the people

11     actually travelled this route, it is your position that the UN that

12     attended the meeting is wrong when it says that you said that the final

13     destination was Petrovac and Banja Luka and your fellow associate who was

14     with you at the meeting also got it wrong when he says that you said to

15     go to Petrovac and Banja Luka.  Is that your position?

16        A.   I claim that, and I say that it is completely incorrect.  There

17     were other 10 to 15 people in attendance there who could confirm that.

18        Q.   Let me ask you:  Mr. Novakovic, is it -- is it the case that you

19     do not wish to acknowledge your role in evacuating the population to

20     Petrovac and Banja Luka for fear of being held responsible by your fellow

21     Serbs for ordering the evacuation out of Croatia?

22        A.   No.  I believe that question is superfluous and it can certainly

23     be disputed by at least another 30 sources.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  The answer is no.  Your point is clear, Mr. Misetic.

25             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, in light of the Trial Chamber's

Page 11796

 1     rulings on issues like this, we will not tender this statement.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock.  I don't know what your

 5     next subject would be, whether that could be dealt with in a couple of

 6     minutes.  If so, please proceed; if not --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  I don't wish to run afoul ^ with the Trial Chamber

 8     so I will not risk it and --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...  yes, apart from that, I

10     get problems with the other Trial Chambers.

11             Mr. Novakovic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning.

12             Madam Usher, can you escort Mr. Novakovic out of the courtroom.

13             And I would like to instruct you before you leave this courtroom

14     that you should not speak with anyone about your testimony, whether it is

15     the testimony you have already given or whether the testimony still to be

16     given from now on.

17             Is that clear, Mr. Novakovic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, Your Honour.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Which leaves one minute to inquire with the parties,

21     whether the indicated time need, and in view of how the cross-examination

22     develops is still accurate, or whether it undergoes any changes.

23             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, I will -- I anticipate and I'll tell

24     you what the issue is.  There were several people on the Prosecution's

25     witness list including -- well, I don't mention the names but --

Page 11797

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You explained that.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ... directly involved, for

 3     example, the entire structure of the civil protection, how orders were

 4     carried out.  This is my only opportunity to -- [Overlapping speakers]

 5     ...

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... just asking --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- whether your original estimate is still the same,

 9     whether it became --

10             MR. MISETIC:  It became a little less.  I won't take ten hours,

11     but I certainly will take all of tomorrow and try to --

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, okay.  That's clear.  That's just for our --

13     for everyone, good to know that if there is any adjustment to estimates

14     that we are aware of that.

15             We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow, Friday, 14th day of November,

16     9.00 in the morning, in this same Courtroom I.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

18                            to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of

19                            November, 2008, at 9.00 a.m.