Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11991

 1                           Tuesday, 18 November 2008

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, The

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11             There is still a motion pending on protective measures.

12             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That's right, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, the Chamber is inclined to give

14     the parties an opportunity to put further questions in relation to that

15     motion to the witness and will then give its ruling on the matter.

16             But that should be done in closed session.  Therefore, we turn

17     into closed session.

18                           [Closed session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

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11  Pages 11992-11999 redacted. Closed session.















Page 12000

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 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             Ms. Mahindaratne, are you ready to examine Ms. Mauro?

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

16                           Examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

17        Q.   I'm not sure, Mr. President, whether the witness's full name was

18     recorded previously.  No, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Not before we entered into closed session, and I

20     didn't -- you didn't ask her, as a matter of fact, the parties didn't ask

21     her to state her full name for the record, so that still should be done.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   Ms. Mauro, could you please state your full name for the record.

24        A.   Maria Teresa Mauro.

25        Q.   Did you provide two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor on

Page 12001

 1     2nd and 3rd March, 2000, and for the second time on 5th and 6th January,

 2     2008?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And since then, have you had an opportunity to examine both those

 5     statements?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Did you find that the contents of the two statements accurately

 8     reflected what you stated to the members of the Office of the Prosecutor

 9     on those previous occasions?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call for document number

12     5362, please.

13        Q.   And the document will come up on the screen in front of you,

14     Ms. Mauro.

15             While that's happening, if you could say, are the contents of

16     both those statements true to the best of your knowledge?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, if you were asked the questions that were asked of you by

19     the members of the Office of the Prosecutor in March 2000 and in

20     January 2008 again today in court, would your responses be the same?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you know the statement in front of you?

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if you could just -- yes,

24     thank you.

25        Q.   Do you identify that as your statement?

Page 12002

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And Mr. Registrar, can we take the document --

 3     the English version to the -- not the last page.  The one before the last

 4     page, the signature page.

 5        Q.   Is that your signature?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to move this document

 8     into evidence.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  From the written submissions, I take it that there

10     are no objections against admission.

11             Mr. Registrar, the 2000 statement would be ...

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P1098.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And the 2008 statement would be ...

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Let me call that --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, yes.  We have not seen it.  Yes.  I'm too early.

16             P1098 is admitted into evidence.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if you could bring up on

18     the screen document 5362, please.

19        Q.   And, Ms. Mauro, if you could look at the next document that comes

20     up on the screen and identify it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Is there any problem as far as the number is

22     concerned?

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry.  5363, Mr. Registrar.  I beg your

24     pardon.

25        Q.   Ms. Mauro, is that your document of 2008?

Page 12003

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I move this statement into

 3     evidence, please.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Same observation, as far as Defence submissions are

 5     concerned.

 6             Mr. Registrar.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P1099, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  P1099 is admitted into evidence.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

10        Q.   Ms. Mauro --

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, how will we deal, because we have

13     one related exhibit still to be added to the 65 ter list - I do

14     understand that's one HRAT report - in addition to the ones that were

15     already on the 65 ter list.  I do understand that there's no objection

16     against adding that to the 65 ter list.  The other related exhibits, will

17     you put them on the list and that we --

18             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I will call up only three

19     documents of that list at the end of the session, so we will provide --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and then the remainder we'll find on a list so

21     that Mr. Registrar can assign numbers to those you did not refer to.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'll do that.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

25        Q.   Ms. Mauro, at the time you provided the supplemental statement to

Page 12004

 1     the Office of the Prosecutor in 2008, did you examine a number of

 2     reports, majority of which were authored or co-authored by yourself?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, did you examine those documents since 2008, since the time

 5     you made the supplementary statement, particularly on Sunday or

 6     yesterday?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Are you satisfied that the contents of those documents are true

 9     and accurate to the best of your knowledge?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I read the summary of the

12     witness's 92 ter statement?

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.  You have explained to the witness

14     what the purpose of reading out the summary is?

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I have.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Ms. Maria Teresa Mauro worked as an UN civil

18     affairs officer based in Knin from March to December 1995.  She was

19     present during the shelling of Knin on 4th and 5th August, 1995.  She was

20     a member of the Human Rights Action Team, known as HRAT, from 7

21     August 1995, and in this capacity conducted daily HRAT patrols in the

22     southern Krajina.  She reported on her observations and compiled a number

23     of HRAT reports containing information of human rights violations

24     observed by HRAT monitors during and in the aftermath of Operation Storm.

25     Ms. Mauro provided direct notice of crimes to accused Ivan Cermak.

Page 12005

 1             That is all, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, if the witness could be handed

 4     over the hard copies of the statement and -- thank you, Madam Usher.

 5             And, Mr. Registrar, if we could have Exhibit P1098 on the screen,

 6     please.

 7        Q.   Ms. Mauro, if you could look at your 2000 statement, and you have

 8     the hard copies before you.  You can peruse them or follow it on the

 9     screen.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could move to page 3

11     on the English translation, the original, and page 3 of the Croatian

12     version.  The paragraphs are not numbered but paragraph 3 on page 3.

13        Q.   You say -- this is what you say:  "I can remember General Cermak

14     arriving early on after the attack and often being available to talk

15     about the problems that we encountered.  He appeared to be the main

16     authority in the area and had a number of aides with him.  Cermak wore a

17     uniform and was apparently the governor of Knin at that time."

18             Now my question to you, Ms. Mauro, is:  What were the factors

19     that led you to think that Mr. Cermak appeared to be the main authority

20     in the area?

21        A.   Well, it was the person that also others were referring to when

22     situations were difficult and needed to be taken care of and resolved,

23     and it was obvious.

24        Q.   Can you be a little bit more specific, Ms. Mauro, when you say it

25     was obvious.  Apart from others referring to, did you observe anything

Page 12006

 1     personally which led you to conclude that Mr. Cermak was the main

 2     authority in the area?

 3        A.   Well, it was the most senior -- it is undoubtful because also

 4     within our own hierarchy, the person that we were relating to was him,

 5     and I referred to General Forand or the head of my office, so the highest

 6     authority in the area was him.

 7        Q.   As I understood you, you said:  "Within our own hierarchy, the

 8     person we were relating to was him..."

 9        A.   Was General Cermak.

10        Q.   I see.  And now, in your statement you talk about having personal

11     contact with him, participating in meetings with him.  What were your

12     personal observations about the particular meetings and how Mr. Cermak

13     expressed himself?

14        A.   That's exactly what I --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins.  One second.

16             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, my objection is to the way that the

17     question was put by Ms. Mahindaratne whereby she states -- she refers to:

18     "You talk about having personal contact with him, participating in

19     meetings with him."  In my submission, we must take care at this point,

20     and there must be a basis put as to whether or not that is accurate and

21     the nature of any contact that this witness had, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But I take it that --

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I can refer the paragraphs in the statement.

24     Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  In the statement, of course, there is some mention

Page 12007

 1     of direct contact.  Whether we call it a meeting or did you meet someone

 2     not in a meeting, that's -- but in -- I do understand that your question

 3     relates to direct contact between this witness and Mr. Cermak.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  That is correct, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you please, then, answer the question.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Which question?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  We'll --

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Let me repeat the question, Ms. Mauro.

 9        Q.   In your personal direct contact with Mr. Cermak, how did you see

10     or understand Mr. Cermak's authority in the area to be?

11        A.   It is exactly as I wrote in my statement.

12        Q.   And could you express that, please.

13        A.   He was the authority in the area.  He was the person we would

14     refer to when there were issues to be looked at, and situations which

15     were difficult were addressed to him.

16        Q.   Now, I would go to those issues and situations in a moment.  But

17     before going on to that, when you address particular matters with

18     Mr. Cermak, at any time did he ever inform you that you should address

19     those matters with someone else?

20        A.   Not that I can recall, no.

21        Q.   Thank you for that.  And let me take you to paragraph 5 of your

22     2008 statement, Ms. Mauro.

23             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could have P1099 on

24     the screen.

25             If we could have page 2 of the statement -- that is, page 3, that

Page 12008

 1     is -- yes.

 2        Q.   Ms. Mauro, at paragraph 5 of your 2008 statement, you say:  "In

 3     page 3 of my previous statement, paragraph 3 and 4, I refer to General

 4     Cermak and his aides being notified of the crimes and their responses.

 5     On some occasions, I have personally spoken with General Cermak in the UN

 6     compound, and I have informed him of the situation."

 7             Now, could you be specific?  What did you refer to as the

 8     situation?  What exactly did you inform Mr. Cermak?

 9        A.   The plight of the very few people remaining in the area and the

10     difficulties of the very sparse and isolated remaining population in the

11     sector known then as Sector South, and there are difficulties to cope

12     with surviving and the problems of arson and the problems of livelihood

13     and looting and robbing and harassment and crimes which people had

14     witnessed or were aware of.

15        Q.   And -- well, you say in that same paragraph:  "On these

16     occasions, he seemed willing to cooperate and always assured that the

17     matter will be looked into and that he wanted to be informed about

18     criminal activities, if any.  General Cermak always assured us that the

19     situation was under control."

20             Now, at those times you addressed these matters with General

21     Cermak and he assured you that the matter was under control, did it seem

22     to you that, in fact, that was, indeed, the case?

23        A.   No.

24             MS. HIGGINS:  It was a leading question, Your Honour.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I don't see any leading aspect

Page 12009

 1     of it.  You know, I asked a question.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Although there is some leading element, it's not

 3     inappropriate to put a question in this way.

 4             The question has been answered.

 5             You may proceed.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   And after these conversations with Mr. Cermak, was something done

 8     about the -- these issues that you raised with him?

 9        A.   Well, if you read my reports, it doesn't look like other reports

10     of other HRAT teams.  The situation deteriorated until when we left.

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that question.

12             Now, let me take you to paragraph 6 of your 2008 statement,

13     Ms. Mauro, where you say:  "Following one of these conversations with

14     General Cermak, a few days later while on patrol, we observed crimes

15     being committed (arson).  We immediately returned to Knin and informed

16     General Cermak's office, providing precise coordinates on where this

17     crime was happening.  The aide for General Cermak assured us that the

18     matter would be looked upon -- looked, upon which we returned to the UN

19     camp and informed General Forand."

20             Now, did you ever receive any information after that report was

21     made to General Cermak's office, that that particular incident where you

22     provided coordinates to General Cermak's aide had been investigated into?

23        A.   Well, if I recall correctly, at this -- in this period, the start

24     of the denial-type of attitude.  In other words, we were not saying the

25     truth, according to the Croatian authority we were informing of and

Page 12010

 1     General Cermak as well.

 2             So from the population, no, I did not understand that that action

 3     had been taken to alleviate the situation.

 4        Q.   Now, your answer is, you say:  "Well, if I recall correctly at

 5     this -- in this period, the..."  There was a "denial-type of attitude.

 6     In other words, we were not saying the truth, according to the Croatian

 7     authority we were informing of and General Cermak as well."

 8             Now, can you -- are you able to specifically refer to a

 9     particular instance when General Cermak, you know, expressed this type of

10     denial?

11        A.   There should be a letter where he expressed this type of denial.

12        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, can I have P36 on the screen,

14     please.

15             And if we can go to the next page, Mr. Registrar, and if you

16     could just focus on -- yes.

17        Q.   Ms. Mauro, I'd like to you look at this document.  In fact, you

18     have referred to this document at paragraph 41 of your 2008 statement.

19     This is an HRAT report compiled by you and Mr. Edward Flynn.

20             In paragraph -- the second paragraph under paragraph number 2,

21     that is, in fact, paragraph 3, you -- it's reported, it says:  "The

22     Croatian civilian police presence in the areas outside the main towns

23     remain almost non-existent.  The resulting freedom this gives to roving

24     gangs of uniformed Croatian soldiers who loot and burn at will has placed

25     the few remaining residents of the countryside in Sector South in a

Page 12011

 1     virtually continual state of fear.  This situation provides a marked

 2     contrast to the picture proffered by Military Governor Cermak, who

 3     insisted in a letter dated 3rd September to Sector Commander Forand ...

 4     that he is astonished at your statements about persecution of the poor

 5     and miserable from their land."

 6             Is that the letter you're referring to?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   "General Cermak stated his full willingness to visit personally

 9     sites where abuses are observed by the UN, but today when yet another was

10     observed (following paragraph) General Cermak was out of town."

11              And in the following paragraph:  "The incident is referred to"

12     --

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, if you could just bring up --

14     focus on the next paragraph.

15        Q.   -- "to the 4th September.  An HRAT visited hamlets of Tintori,

16     Petrovici, and Cvijanovici" -- pardon my pronunciation -- "in the Plavno

17     valley, 20 kilometres north of Knin.  Residents of all villages reported

18     a weekend replete with fear caused by roving gangs of uniformed Croatian

19     soldiers."  And -- there are details of the incident.  A few lines below

20     -- it says: "On returning, they surprised two uniformed soldiers of the

21     4th Split brigade lounging next to a burning house."

22             Now --

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne.

24             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I'm sorry, Mr. President.

25        Q.   "A second building was seen burning just up the hill.  The

Page 12012

 1     soldiers spoke vaguely of some other soldiers setting the blazes."

 2             Now, according to this report, it says in the previous

 3     paragraph that when this particular incident was observed, General Cermak

 4     was out of town.  Now, can you explain it, is it -- what is the

 5     connection about this incident and General Cermak being out of town?

 6        A.   Well, because I was advised -- we reported the incident when we

 7     came from this area.  We passed by the office of General Cermak in Knin,

 8     and we informed them that this had happened.  But we were told that he

 9     was out of town.

10        Q.   And did you -- to whom did you provide that information?  Was it

11     an official of the office or just a person there?

12        A.   No.  It was an official of the office.  I don't recall the name.

13     I don't recall the name.

14        Q.   And consequent to that report, did you -- were you informed that

15     an investigation has been carried out into that incident?

16        A.   I wasn't.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I have P46 on the screen,

18     please.

19        Q.   And while that document is being brought up, Ms. Mauro, if I

20     could ask you to look at paragraph 33 of your 2008 statement where you

21     refer to the HRAT report for 22nd August, 1995.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, in this report, it's recorded of a meeting between you and

24     the chief of Knin, Mr. Romanic.  Who else was present at this meeting,

25     that is, the meeting between you and Mr. Romanic?

Page 12013

 1        A.   Certainly, there was an interpreter, and most probably both the

 2     UN CIVPOL and the UNMO were in the room with us.

 3        Q.   And this report also refers to a meeting with Mr. Jukic, Pavo,

 4     the office in charge of civil Defence in Knin.

 5             Now was this meeting taken together with Mr. Romanic and Mr. Pavo

 6     Jukic, or were they two separate meetings?

 7        A.   It's possible.  I don't recall exactly.

 8        Q.   Now, was the purpose of this meeting?  I'm sorry.  It's already

 9     said:  To address the concerns of security and safety for the remaining

10     population in the Plavno area.

11             Can you say, what exactly did you inform Mr. Romanic as being the

12     issue of security and safety for the inhabitants of the Plavno area?

13     What were the inhabitants facing at this particular time?

14        A.   Well, eventually, when we went to the Plavno area for the first

15     time, it was quite an isolated area, and the road to get there was quite

16     difficult.  And the first time we went there, the people was absolutely

17     frightened, and we found devastation all over, and also, so many animals

18     who were lying in the fields, and only older [Realtime transcript read in

19     error, "all the"] people had remained, and we were told about dead bodies

20     buried, not buried, and no electricity, no utilities whatsoever.

21             So we thought that we could draw the attention of the Croatian

22     authority on this situation because essentially everybody wanted to

23     leave, and we asked -- we went back to Knin, and we set up this meeting

24     with Mr. Romanic with the idea that we would have a meeting with the

25     remaining population together the day after or as soon as he was

Page 12014

 1     available so that we could reassure and find a way to appease their

 2     plight.

 3             And so we set up this meeting, and -- well, the story is another

 4     one, but this is the reason why I was there, and with Mr. -- civil

 5     defence.  It was to discuss about the various burial sites which we had

 6     visited and to understand whether they had a clear idea on who was buried

 7     and where and why and identification, if there was a central database for

 8     that.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mahindaratne, just for the record.  You said

10     only the older people had remained, because it reads "all the people,"

11     which is, of course, from hearing almost the same.  Only the older people

12     had remained.  Thank you.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Now, did the -- did you have communication?  Did you speak with

16     the remaining inhabitants of the Plavno area before this meeting?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And did they indicate to you why they wanted to leave?

19        A.   Because they were fearing for their lives.

20        Q.   Now, I just wanted to go back and ask a question that I should

21     have asked you before.  You mentioned an interpreter present at your

22     meetings with Mr. Romanic.  When you communicated with Mr. Cermak, did

23     you communicate through an interpreter?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And whose interpreter was that?  Was it a UN interpreter or

Page 12015

 1     Mr. Cermak's interpreter?

 2        A.   The UN interpreter was always with me.

 3        Q.   And did Mr. Cermak have his own interpreter at the time?

 4        A.   Probably, yes, but we didn't use in our communication, as far as

 5     I remember.

 6             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Registrar, may I call document number

 7     1824, please.

 8             And if we can -- Mr. Registrar, if we could move to page 2.  I'm

 9     sorry.  It should be page 3.

10        Q.   Ms. Mauro, this is one of your HRAT reports that you referred to

11     in your 2008 statement.  If you could look at that last paragraph.  It's

12     reported as this:  "On the same day, the HRAT met Mr. Barisic, Milan,

13     Ministry of Interior coordinator for Gracac area.  Mr. Barisic expressed

14     his appreciation for the good cooperation established with the

15     international organisations so far.  He stated that Croatian police was

16     trying to do its utmost to guarantee the safety of the Serb population

17     remaining.  However, he emphasised that it was difficult to control the

18     200 square kilometre under the jurisdiction of Gracac police station.

19             "According to Mr. Barisic, the Croatian police, for security

20     reasons, refrains from patrolling the border side with Bosnia and the

21     southern part (in Knin direction) of Gracac AOR.  In the southern part, a

22     number of individuals, former HV soldiers and thus wearing uniforms, are

23     undertaking criminal actions and are particularly aggressive.  Up to now,

24     the concerned authorities brought charges against 30 to 35 of them.

25     However, for looting activities, the perpetrators are not supposed to be

Page 12016

 1     taken into custody.  Mr. Barisic could not specify which kind of charges

 2     were brought against those criminals."

 3             Now, my first question to you is:  Was Mr. Barisic a uniformed

 4     policeman or an official from the Ministry of Interior?

 5        A.   I don't remember how -- what was he dressing then, what was he

 6     wearing.

 7        Q.   And where did you meet him?  At his office in Gracac or --

 8        A.   Yes, office.

 9        Q.   And was there -- who introduced Mr. Barisic as the coordinator

10     for the Ministry of Interior for Gracac area?

11        A.   Himself.

12        Q.   And it's reported here that he said that:  "... for looting

13     activities, the perpetrators are not supposed to be taken into custody."

14             Now, what did you understand that statement to be?  You reported

15     it.  Well, how did you understand that?

16        A.   It was tolerated, looting.

17        Q.   Did you ask him what the basis for that decision was?

18        A.   I asked him, So what kind of charges would eventually be brought

19     against these criminals?

20        Q.   And what was his response?

21        A.   No response.  Otherwise, would have been written.

22        Q.   Thank you for that.

23        A.   Thank you.

24        Q.   Did you tell him -- did he inform you as to who had given such

25     instructions as to not taking perpetrators of looting activity into

Page 12017

 1     custody?

 2        A.   No, I didn't ask.  But he was representative of Ministry of

 3     Interior.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I move this document into

 5     evidence, please.  It's included in the 92 ter submission.  I'll have it

 6     removed from the lists.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.  Mr. Registrar.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this becomes Exhibit number P1100.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Exhibit P1100 is admitted into evidence.

10             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             Mr. Registrar, may I have document number 3062, please.

12             Mr. President, this document from page 4 onwards has a chart,

13     which has already -- the chart has been tendered into evidence already

14     under Exhibit number P688.  However, for the time being, I left the chart

15     there so that I could demonstrate that this summary at page 1 to 3 is

16     based on the chart, but we will remove the chart and just -- I will only

17     tender the first three pages into evidence later on.

18        Q.   Ms. Mauro, do you recognise this document?

19        A.   Certainly.

20        Q.   What is it?

21        A.   It is a compilation of dead bodies, crimes involving death, which

22     either the UN personnel or the civilian population would bring to our

23     attention.

24        Q.   I'd like you to look at your 2008 statement, paragraph 57, 58 and

25     59 where you refer to this list.  And paragraph 58, you say -- with

Page 12018

 1     regard to the people who were responsible for compiling this report, you

 2     say:  "A team comprising of Sajin Zhang, myself, Judith Jacob and the

 3     interpreter was responsible for compiling this data."  Now, was

 4     Mr. Judith Jacob Mr. Alun Roberts's secretary?

 5        A.   Yeah, it was an assistant.  She was working the PIO session,

 6     public information.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I wish to submit page 1, 2, 3,

 9     of this document into evidence.  I'll have the rest of the pages removed

10     from e-court later on.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

12             Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P1101.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Exhibit P1101 is admitted into evidence.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Registrar, may I call document 2854 on the screen, please.

17        Q.   Ms. Mauro, do you recognise this document?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What is it?

20        A.   It is an analysis of the situation of the refugees who were to

21     come mainly from the last exodus from Krajina in the former Yugoslavia

22     and then in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia still.

23        Q.   And where were you based at when you compiled this report?

24        A.   I was based at the office in Belgrade of the UN office.

25        Q.   In compiling this report, what type of research did you carry

Page 12019

 1     out?

 2        A.   Well, I spoke with the United Nations high commissioner for

 3     refugees; I spoke with the Serbian office for refugees and IDP; and I

 4     spoke with some -- Helsinki Committee, some non-governmental

 5     organisations, including the Helsinki Committee.  Mainly, these were the

 6     main sources.

 7        Q.   And did you --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Ms. Mahindaratne please switch off the mic

 9     while the witness is answering because it's very difficult to hear the

10     witness.  Thank you.

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

12        Q.   And in carrying out that research, did you receive any

13     information as to the willingness of the Serb refugees who were in the

14     FRY and Serbia and who had left Krajina --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.    -- to return to the Krajina?

17        A.   Yes.  I did receive, also, information from former inhabitants of

18     Krajina, but the information they had concerning the overall situation

19     back home was so difficult that nobody really was thinking to go back

20     except for trying to recuperate some of their belongings or their

21     property or to some assist some of the elderly that had remained there.

22        Q.   You say "... information they had concerning the overall

23     situation back home was so difficult that nobody really was thinking to

24     go back..."  Now, can you be more specific and clarify what you meant by

25     "so difficult"?  What exactly -- what type of information were they

Page 12020

 1     receiving?

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Objection, Your Honour.  If we could get more

 3     foundation as to the source of this information in particular.

 4             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  The witness just testified that she did have

 5     information coming from the inhabitants, previous answer.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I think if you --

 7             MR. MISETIC:  How many, who --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's -- apparently, the witness received

 9     information about that.

10             Could you tell us from whom you received that information about

11     that being difficult, how many people you spoke about that, and whether

12     they gave any further details about the difficulties they thought would

13     be there.

14             THE WITNESS:  Well, besides the people, the number of the people

15     I spoke with originating from that area, I don't remember, but I am

16     certain that my former landlady was in Belgrade with all her family and

17     all her relatives, and there were approximately 20, 30 people if we look

18     at the extended family.  But then there were also the interpreters.  Some

19     of them had remained in the area; not all of them moved out of

20     Sector South.  So they were also a source of information, and there were

21     also other interpreters who instead had come along, and there were people

22     whom I had met during my period in Krajina, and there was also

23     difficulties for the UNHCR to organise this visit and -- and related to

24     the information they were receiving.

25             So it was -- it was -- it was an open secret.

Page 12021

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 2        Q.   Can you -- when you said it was difficult for the UNHCR to

 3     organise this visit, what were you referring to?  Visit to what?

 4        A.   Well, because at a certain stage there was this idea that the

 5     UNHCR would help people to go and visit the area with an intention to

 6     facilitate the return.  But there were also difficulties to obtain

 7     authorisation from the Croatian relevant authorities to -- to undertake

 8     these visits.

 9             So there were two -- two camps of obstruction for the return, if

10     you wish to -- one was the current situation on the ground, and the other

11     was the reluctance of the Croatian authorities to facilitate going to

12     see, visit, for instance.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I think Ms. Mahindaratne invited you to describe the

14     difficulties, which you say now part of it was the current situation on

15     the ground.

16             Could you give us further information about what the situation on

17     the ground was so that they did not think of returning.

18             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So infrastructure were not restored for a

19     long time.  The houses had been destroyed and were still destroyed.  The

20     livelihood, which for many of them were animals and cattle, had been

21     either killed or either stolen.

22             The belongings of the people were not in the house anymore.  My

23     own residence was looted, just as an example.

24             So harassment was still ongoing, and we were hearing about,

25     still, cleaning-up operations.

Page 12022

 1             MS. MAHINDARATNE:

 2        Q.   And when was it that you compiled this report?  And when you're

 3     referring to being in Belgrade getting this information, what period was

 4     this?

 5        A.   It was -- it is written in the report, is 6 June.

 6        Q.   Which year?

 7        A.   13 June.  1996.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Mauro, for responding to my questions.

 9             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, that -- if I may tender this

10     document into evidence.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections.

12             Mr. Registrar.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes exhibit number P1102.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  P1102 is admitted into evidence.

15             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my

16     examination-in-chief.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

18             Yes.  The cleaning-up operations you talked about, did you still

19     receive reports on that in June 1996?

20             THE WITNESS:  I personally didn't receive a report, but I heard

21     information.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But was that up-to-date information on what happened

23     in, well, let's say, May, June, 1996, or would that refer to an earlier

24     period?

25             THE WITNESS:  I can't specify that --

Page 12023

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS:  -- for you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins, you're already on your feet.

 4             MS. HIGGINS:  Well, Your Honour, I wonder if Your Honour would

 5     contemplate taking the break at this point.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps that would be a good idea, that we

 7     have an early break and that you will be cross-examined after the break.

 8             We will have a break, and we'll resume at 4.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:

13        Q.   Ms. Mauro, I'm going ask you some questions on behalf of

14     Mr. Cermak, and I'd like to start with your job and the reporting

15     mechanism back between March to December 1995.

16             Do you understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we know that you worked in Knin as a civil

19     affairs officer from March to December 1995.  Can you tell me who your

20     superior in Knin was, please?

21        A.   Previously, before Al-Alfi, Mr. Al-Alfi was Mr. Amir Kotnik

22     [phoen].

23        Q.   And is it correct that in your position you were involved in the

24     daily patrols in and around the Knin area?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 12024

 1        Q.   Now, after you patrolled together with your colleagues, you would

 2     then be involved in the preparation of daily reports on behalf of HRAT.

 3     Is that right?

 4        A.   Well, the HRAT didn't start up to August.

 5        Q.   Let's take it from the 7th of August onwards, if we may.

 6        A.   Of course.

 7        Q.   So from that time, you were involved in the preparation of daily

 8     reports.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   I'm going to make a pause between when you and I answer each

11     other just for the purpose of interpretation.

12        A.   Okay.

13        Q.   Just so that we understand as clearly as possible, during your

14     work as a member of a HRAT team, how many people were in each HRAT

15     patrol?

16        A.   Generally was an UN CIVPOL and UNMO and an interpreter.  And at

17     times, we joined with the civil affairs -- sorry, the UN human rights

18     officer, and occasionally the UNHCR officers were also coming with us.

19        Q.   So between four to six people in reach HRAT?  Would that be

20     approximately correct?

21        A.   Well, the usual composition was a UN civil affairs, a UN CIVPOL,

22     and a military observer and an interpreter.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On average, how many HRAT teams were patrolling at

24     any one time?

25        A.   Depended, because we didn't receive the additional staff, but at

Page 12025

 1     the beginning we were three.

 2        Q.   And is it right that all team members after they had come back

 3     from the patrols would then have a debriefing session in Mr. Al-Alfi's

 4     office?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   And he, just for the record, was a civil affairs coordinator.  Is

 7     that right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And is it also right that all the HRAT teams who had been out

10     that day, however composed, would take part in those debriefings?

11        A.   Generally would be the civil affairs officers, all of them, and

12     the head of the departments, UNMO, or CIVPOL, not all the CIVPOL who were

13     with us or not all the UNMOs who were with us, but UNHCR as well.

14        Q.   How many people might have input during those debriefing sessions

15     into providing information for the reports that were produced?

16        A.   Well, everybody had an input on what they had observed during the

17     day.

18        Q.   And how many people -- can you tell me an approximation of how

19     many might be at that debriefing meeting, given the number of teams and

20     the people involved?

21        A.   Coordinator; deputy; human rights office; and we were three civil

22     affairs officers; plus we had the head of UNMO; the head of CIVPOL;

23     military were also present from the General Forand's office; and UNHCR;

24     and then at a later stage, also, the ECMM were with us.

25        Q.   And again, just so that I understand, would the purpose of those

Page 12026

 1     debriefing sessions be effectively to pool the information that you had

 2     and a report, a single report be produced, or were there a number of

 3     reports produced?

 4        A.   It depended.  Generally, there was a single report, but sometimes

 5     there were cumulative reports, but I needed to specify that we had a

 6     colleague covering the Korenica area, and he attended occasionally, not

 7     all the time.  But he was providing reports and sending to us on daily

 8     basis.

 9        Q.   Where would those reports be sent to, Ms. Mauro?

10        A.   The headquarters in Zagreb.

11        Q.   In terms of the debriefing session, would Mr. Flynn often attend

12     those sessions?

13        A.   Always, when he was there.

14        Q.   And what about General Forand?

15        A.   Sometimes.  But usually it was Colonel Leslie or someone else

16     from General Forand's office.

17        Q.   Now, you've clarified in your 2008 statement that the HRAT

18     reports would, of course, include information from the UN components such

19     as the UNMOs, the UN CIVPOL, and the UNHCR, details of which would be set

20     out in the report.  Is that right?

21        A.   If I understand correctly your question, there is an

22     misunderstanding, because the reports were compiled by the HRAT.  At

23     times, there were some information from UNHCR, but if you read, there are

24     not so many at times.  So it was the HRAT which was compiling the report.

25        Q.   Now, those HRAT reports also contained information about meetings

Page 12027

 1     that had been held between various UN officials, for example, Mr.

 2     Al-Alfi, General Forand, with local individuals such as Mr. Cermak.  Is

 3     that a correct assessment?

 4        A.   There was some reference to it.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Now, during the course of your two statements that you have

 6     given to the Prosecution, you have been asked to review over 50 HRAT

 7     reports, most of which - it's fair to say - are evidence in this trial

 8     already, Ms. Mauro.

 9             Just, again, for the sake of clarity so I understand, is it right

10     that having gone through those reports, the aspects that you were able to

11     speak to and that you knew about from talking with others are the aspects

12     that have you set out in your witness statement, where you comment upon

13     those reports.

14        A.   Well, actually, most of the reports are my own reports.

15        Q.   A number of the reports are uninitialed.  Do you recall that?

16        A.   Show me.

17        Q.   Well, I'll come back to that if I may.

18             What I'm asking you is:  Your knowledge of events, as I

19     understand, Ms. Mauro, you're not saying that you had personal knowledge

20     of everything contained in those reports; for example, some of the

21     information would have been told to you by others evidently involved in

22     the field elsewhere.  Would you accept that?

23        A.   Not necessarily, in the sense that when we -- in part of the

24     report I was always involved firsthand, if there is my initial there.

25        Q.   Well, I'll come on to dealing with some of the reports in a

Page 12028

 1     moment.

 2             Let me just ask you now about Mr. Cermak's arrival and your

 3     contact with him.  Again, you can take it from me or look at the

 4     statements before you, if you prefer.  In your statement in 2000, at page

 5     3, you say:  "I can remember General Cermak arriving earlier on after the

 6     attack and often being available to talk about the problems that we

 7     encountered."

 8             And that paragraph was read out to you by Ms. Mahindaratne, if

 9     you recall.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Were you aware or did you come to know at any stage that

12     Mr. Cermak came to Knin on the 6th of August?  Is that something that you

13     came to know at some stage?

14        A.   If I remember correctly, I saw him, if it was not 6, it was 7 or

15     8.

16        Q.   And during your stay in Knin and your interactions in the UN

17     camp, did you also come to know early on that part of Mr. Cermak's

18     function was to assist the UN in Sector South?

19        A.   Yes.  Well, to assist the UN in Sector South, to -- I mean, our

20     understanding was that he was there to assist the people in Sector South

21     and to facilitate the UN work.

22        Q.   And the facilitation of the UN work meant actually assisting with

23     practical problems that the UN were facing, for example, the recovery of

24     stolen vehicles.  Did you know about that?

25        A.   Well, we were not really facing that problems in that period.  We

Page 12029

 1     were, rather, trying to draw the attention of the authorities on the

 2     problems that the people were facing.  That was our main function because

 3     we were totally aware that Croatia was an independent country.

 4        Q.   You may not have been aware of the question of the UN stolen

 5     vehicles, but did you come to know that it was an issue for General

 6     Forand, for example, on which he corresponded with Mr. Cermak?

 7        A.   I was a political humanitarian officer there.  I was not involved

 8     in security as such.

 9        Q.   Now, the problems that we encountered, as you refer to, those

10     problems obviously included the people who were within the UN camp from

11     the area, correct?

12        A.   The overall situation.

13        Q.   Yeah.  And the overall situation and those problems also

14     included, would you agree, issues concerning normalisation of life

15     post-Operation Storm, for example, the restoration of water, restoration

16     of electricity.  Is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Also, the workings of the hospital, the shops, the banks and

19     commerce in and around Knin.  Is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, we know from your statement that you came across Mr. Cermak

22     in the UN compound.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Are you able to give me a date to assist me with that?

25        A.   Early -- quite early in August.

Page 12030

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, do you recall, for example, or did it come to

 2     your knowledge that Mr. Cermak was providing assistance to the displaced

 3     people in the camp by way of food, blankets, cigarettes?  Did you come to

 4     know about that?

 5        A.   At the beginning, in any case, were not enough because we didn't

 6     even have food for ourselves because we were cut out of supplies.

 7        Q.   Did you know about the setting-up of a public kitchen, which was

 8     actually located in the garrison building to assist with provision of

 9     food to the camp?

10        A.   I guess it came at a later stage.

11        Q.   Did you come to know about that provision of food from the

12     garrison?

13        A.   I didn't know who was providing that food.

14        Q.   Now, to go back to the wording of your statement, in 2008, you

15     say at paragraph 5, so that you can follow if would you like to:  "On

16     some occasions, I have personally spoken with General Cermak in the UN

17     compound, and I have informed him of the situation."

18             Do you have that before you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You were asked in your examination-in-chief as to what you talked

21     to Mr. Cermak about, and would it be fair to summarize in this way,  that

22     you talked to him about the problems that were persisting in the area and

23     issues of general crime that was occurring, wasn't specific examples that

24     you brought to his attention.  Would that be fair?

25        A.   Well, we also brought to him specific examples.

Page 12031

 1        Q.   What were those?

 2        A.   Plavno valley when it was burning, despite the assurances of the

 3     contrary, and other incidents.

 4        Q.   Well, that's the Grubori incident that you are talking about,

 5     isn't it?

 6        A.   No.  There was another one.

 7        Q.   And when did you provide notification to him?

 8        A.   When we went to his office, but he was out of town.

 9        Q.   Was that on the 4th of September?

10        A.   No.  Well, I should look into the reporting.

11        Q.   Well, please do so, if you would care to take the opportunity so

12     that we can be clear about it, because that's the occasion that you have

13     told us about in-chief.

14        A.   But we went already through this, right, where we informed him

15     about an arson incident.

16        Q.   Yes.  There is -- let me take you, perhaps, to be of assistance,

17     to your statement, where you recall providing specific reference --

18        A.   Here it is.  Yes.  You know, I should look -- because it's

19     paragraph 6 in fact.  But I should look into the report, the single

20     individual report, and -- right?  So you have in paragraph 6.

21        Q.   Can you read paragraph 6 very carefully to yourself for a moment?

22     Because I have a particular question that I'd like to ask you, so if can

23     you just reread that?

24        A.   Done.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The question is this:  On rereading that paragraph,

Page 12032

 1     is that not in fact the incident of the burning that you came across in

 2     Grubori on the 25th of August that you --

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Can I finish my question, please, Ms. Mauro, that you came across

 5     and reported to the office, you say, of General Cermak.  Is that not one

 6     and the same incident?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   How can you be so sure?

 9        A.   Because I remember that Grubori was a very long day for all of

10     us, and I don't even remember that I was going to the office of Cermak

11     myself, but I do remember that after Grubori, of course, we kept the

12     Plavno under scrutiny, so we went back a few days later, and we had a

13     similar incident.  But there -- I'm certain there are reports about this

14     other incident --

15        Q.   We'll come on to Grubori just so that you know.

16        A.   Yeah.

17        Q.   But this paragraph 6, you say that you informed General Cermak's

18     office.  Who was it in General Cermak's office that you informed?

19        A.   There were more people.  There was one person who came to us, and

20     we left -- the message, we left to the coordinator.  Then we went to the

21     headquarters.

22        Q.   So you're not after this time able to give me the name of the

23     individual?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Can you give me a HRAT report in which this incident is recorded,

Page 12033

 1     please?

 2             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, may I?  In fact, in

 3     examination-in-chief I called up document P36, which records the matter

 4     --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Again, you...

 6             MS. HIGGINS:

 7        Q.   Can you ask you this, Ms. Mauro:  You've said there were several

 8     occasions on which specifics were given.  You've drawn my attention to

 9     this one that you distinguish from Grubori.  Can I ask you to provide me

10     with any others, please, specific incidents that were reported to the

11     office, as you say, of Mr. Cermak?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President --

15             THE WITNESS:  Not through me.

16             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you.

17             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I just wish to point out that there is another

18     --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know what you're going to say,

20     Ms. Mahindaratne.  If there's any additional matter you'd like to raise,

21     of course, then in re-examination you have opportunity to do that.

22             I think where Ms. Higgins specifically asked whether there was a

23     report and whether since this was dealt with in examination-in-chief, I

24     think it was not inappropriate to point at P36.  But we should refrain

25     from intervening or interfering with the examination by the other party

Page 12034

 1     at loose grounds.

 2             So unless there's really something that you have thought over to

 3     be fully appropriate now to raise; otherwise, you should keep it for

 4     re-examination.

 5             MS. HIGGINS:  If I could just have a moment, Your Honour.

 6                           [Defence counsel confer]

 7             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Let's go back to the UN camp, because I'm still interested in the

 9     contact that you had with Mr. Cermak.  And let's go back, perhaps, to the

10     7th, and it may jog your memory, Ms. Mauro, and if we consider that as a

11     matter of record that was the day on which the Akashi delegation arrived,

12     something I know you recall from your 2000 statement.

13             Is that right?

14        A.   I'm not sure I recall the day.  I recall that the Akashi

15     delegation arrived.

16        Q.   Were you part of the group that spoke with Mr. Akashi?

17        A.   No.  I just saw him.

18        Q.   Do you recall whether you saw Mr. Cermak that day?

19        A.   I think so.

20        Q.   Do you recall whether you spoke to him that day?

21        A.   Not sure.

22        Q.   Okay.  Did you come to hear through your debriefing sessions

23     about Mr. Cermak's, as it was recorded, strong desire - words of

24     Mr. Akashi - for all those people who were in the camp to stay in Knin

25     and remain living there?

Page 12035

 1        A.   I'm not sure I understand your question.

 2        Q.   Going back to the incident of Mr. Akashi's delegation arriving,

 3     did it come to your attention through the debriefing sessions that it had

 4     been reported by Mr. Akashi that Mr. Cermak had a strong desire for those

 5     people in the camp to remain living in and around Knin from where they

 6     had come from?

 7        A.   In that two days, our priority was to get food, water, and

 8     freedom of movement because we were, in fact, not allowed to go anywhere,

 9     and we had no supplies, either, because we had finished them.  Also, it

10     was nearly finished because we were hosting a number of people who were

11     not foreseen.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mauro, if I may stop you there.  I do understand

13     that you had other priorities at that moment, but Ms. Higgins

14     specifically asked you whether you learned at any debriefing session

15     about this wish, strong desire by Mr. Cermak for those living in the camp

16     to remain living in and around Knin.  Even though you may have had many

17     others, perhaps, even for you, more pressing matters on your mind, that

18     is what Ms. Higgins would like to know from you.

19             THE WITNESS:  No.  I remember we were discussing about Sarinic

20     letter.  That was one part, important part of the debriefing at that

21     time.

22             MS. HIGGINS:

23        Q.   Were you in the UN camp on the 8th; do you recall?

24        A.   It depends what time and --

25        Q.   Well, let me try and orientate you by informing you that on that

Page 12036

 1     date, we have in fact a HRAT report, which records --

 2             MS. HIGGINS:  If I can have on the screen to assist P29, please,

 3     Mr. Registrar, second page at the bottom.

 4        Q.   A report of Mr. Cermak addressing a committee of the dismissed

 5     persons at the compound.

 6        A.   I was not present at this -- this meeting.

 7        Q.   All right.  Well, let me just ask you this, whether through,

 8     again, the method and mechanism of the debriefing sessions that you had,

 9     did it come to your attention, if you see at the very bottom of that page

10     the second line from the bottom:  "Today, however, General Cermak came to

11     the compound and in the UN's presence delivered to a committee of the

12     DPs..."

13             MS. HIGGINS:  The next page, please, Mr. Registrar.

14        Q.   And you can read it for yourself, Ms. Mauro.  It concerns coming

15     to convey the Croatian government's position concerning their

16     reintegration and in a reassuring tone informing those displaced persons

17     of the range of the rights that would be guaranteed to them in Knin and

18     in the region which extended to citizenship, food, assistance, full

19     employment, et cetera.

20             You'll see there an observation that Mr. Cermak stressed that

21     Croatia does not want a dead town and wishes for all these people to live

22     there.

23             Do you see that, and did it come to your attention either at the

24     time or shortly thereafter that that was in fact the position that

25     Mr. Cermak had put forward?

Page 12037

 1        A.   Well, yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, again, we know from the way that have you worded

 3     it in your statement that you recalled him coming to the UN compound to

 4     inquire about the situation there.  Did you come to see, in fact, the

 5     document that was issued as a result of Mr. Cermak's address?  And let me

 6     give you the opportunity of seeing that record.

 7             MS. HIGGINS:  It's D300, please, Mr. Registrar.

 8        Q.   Ms. Mauro, were you able to read Croatian at the time you were

 9     present in Knin?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   If you could just take a look at the English translation and see

12     whether or not that was something that came to your attention, please.

13        A.   I don't remember.

14        Q.   Now, in terms of the conversations that you had with Mr. Cermak,

15     can you give me any indication of how many conversations you had with

16     him?

17        A.   A few.

18        Q.   And did all of those take place in the UN compound itself?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   I know from your statement, again, in 2008, at page 3, that you

21     refer to the fact that you recorded your observations at that time in an

22     individual notebook.  That's what you say in your statement, and please,

23     again, feel free to take a look.  It's page 3, paragraph 12.

24             Do you still have your notebooks from that time, Ms. Mauro?

25        A.   No, unfortunately.  But excuse me, which one you are referring

Page 12038

 1     to?

 2        Q.   Paragraph 12 of the 2008 statement.  "During our patrols, we

 3     recorded our observations in our individual notebooks."

 4        A.   Oh, yes.

 5        Q.   I'm interested in whether or not those are still in existence.

 6     No.

 7             Do you know what happened to your notebooks?

 8        A.   Burned.  Thrown away.

 9        Q.   So the answer is --

10        A.   Shredded.

11        Q.   -- you don't know.

12        A.   Shredded.

13        Q.   They were shredded?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Do you know when they were shredded?

16        A.   By ourselves.  After we were compiling the notebook, when was it

17     finished, usually we wouldn't keep because the information were recorded

18     on the computer.

19        Q.   Did you ever attend any formal meeting with Mr. Cermak himself at

20     the garrison building?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Did you, as a patroller, ever request an official meeting with

23     him?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Why -- why not?  Was there any particular reason why that

Page 12039

 1     wouldn't have been appropriate?

 2        A.   Well, usually it was relating to General Forand and -- and

 3     Mr. Al-Alfi, so it was sufficient.

 4        Q.   And the conversations, a couple of conversations that you had in

 5     the compound, presumably those were in the presence of other people who

 6     were there at the time.  Is that right?

 7        A.   Like the interpreter.

 8        Q.   Yes.  Anyone else present during the conversations with

 9     Mr. Cermak?

10        A.   It's possible.

11        Q.   Now, at page 2 of your 2008 statement, paragraph 5, you're

12     referring to the occasions on which you spoke with him, and your

13     observations were these:  "On these occasions, he seemed willing to

14     cooperate and always assured us that the matter will be looked into and

15     that he wanted to be informed about criminal activities, if any ..."

16             It's the paragraph that was read to you earlier.  Do you see

17     that, Ms. Mauro?

18        A.   Sure.

19        Q.   Is it right to say that from the brief contact that you had with

20     Mr. Cermak in the UN compound that he was cooperative and trying to help

21     out?

22        A.   That's what I said.

23        Q.   Yes.  Is it fair to say that given your position in Knin at that

24     time, you weren't privy to the knowledge of what resources he had

25     available to him or what he was authorised to do?  It's not something you

Page 12040

 1     knew about, was it, Ms. Mauro?

 2        A.   Well, he seemed to the point of reference.

 3        Q.   I understand that.  My question is a bit more specific, in terms

 4     of whether you knew the resources he had available to him and whether you

 5     knew the authority he had to assist.

 6             Do you see the difference?

 7        A.   The resources, I don't know.

 8        Q.   Yeah.

 9        A.   The authority, I -- it was stated because he wanted to be

10     informed and he wanted to -- and he was reassuring.  He was saying that

11     the situation was under control, so -- and others were -- I think also

12     the chief of police referred to -- to General Cermak, like, I can't

13     really, but General Cermak...

14             So it was a point of reference, and he was very reassuring in his

15     attitude.

16        Q.   A point of reference, I don't disagree with you, Ms. Mauro.  My

17     question was centered more on whether or not, for example, you ever

18     received or knew about in your position his terms of reference, what his

19     actual function was in Croatia at that time.

20        A.   Well, at the beginning there were no civilian authorities so he

21     had a overall jurisdiction over the area.

22        Q.   Now, in your evidence in chief, you told us that your assumptions

23     about his authority were based on his contact with the Sector South chief

24     or, effectively, the higher echelons of the hierarchy.

25             Do you recall that?

Page 12041

 1        A.   We didn't have any other one to really relate to, except the

 2     chief of police, Romanic, in fact, for a while because then it was --

 3     suddenly, he left.

 4        Q.   Yes.  But in turn, you have said that he had overall jurisdiction

 5     over the area.  Ms. Mauro, you don't even know what Mr. Cermak's correct

 6     job title was, did you?  You got your information from those around you?

 7        A.   General Cermak, yes.

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Military governor.

10        Q.   We'll come on to that in a moment.

11             Did you know how many staff Mr. Cermak had?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   In your statement, you refer to his aides.  Who did you mean by

14     that?

15        A.   There were always soldiers around him.

16        Q.   What were their names?

17        A.   I don't know.  Because in fact he was the only interlocutor, if

18     you want to ...

19        Q.   Did you know about the structure that had been developed between

20     the UN and the Croatian government whereby a liaison system had been set

21     up and officers designated to assist with liaison work?

22        A.   Well, I recall that in Zadar there was an office which had a

23     civilian office, in fact, which was supposed to be our point of

24     reference, and I also read the report, and I recall hearing our

25     coordinator, that he was trying to set up a meeting for weeks and weeks,

Page 12042

 1     and then we finally managed to have a meeting after a few weeks or a few

 2     months - I don't remember, few weeks, probably - and I was present at

 3     that meet.

 4        Q.   In terms of the aides that you have referred to, are you in fact

 5     referring to liaison officers, for example, a Mr. Dondo, or a

 6     Mr. Lukovic?  Do those names ring a bell?

 7        A.   No.  Probably 13 years ago, yes.  Now, absolutely, no.

 8        Q.   Had you ever met Mr. Cermak before he came to Knin?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Did you know when he was assigned to his position in Knin?

11        A.   When I saw him.

12        Q.   No, did you know when --

13        A.   No, as far as I know, when I saw him.  But I don't know anything

14     else.

15        Q.   Did you ever see the Croatian documents themselves assigning

16     Mr. Cermak to his position?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And just for the sake of clarity, to come back to a question I

19     raised earlier, it's right that you never saw any precise terms of

20     reference as to what Mr. Cermak's actual job was, correct?

21        A.   Right.

22        Q.   Post-Operation Storm, were you personally given any formal

23     instruction as to how the new civilian and military administration was to

24     function in and around Knin?

25        A.   Well, that's what I already said.  We -- we knew that our point

Page 12043

 1     of reference was General Cermak and that the -- the civilian authorities

 2     were not yet in place and were to about be established, and then, I don't

 3     remember how many days or weeks later, Mr. Romanic came.

 4        Q.   My question is a very, again, specific one, Ms. Mauro, if I can

 5     come back to it.  Were you given any formal instruction as to how the new

 6     civilian and military administration was to function in and around Knin?

 7        A.   No more than what I said before.

 8        Q.   Well, what you said before was that Mr. Cermak was a point of

 9     reference, which I don't disagree with.  But my question was about formal

10     instruction.

11        A.   Well, we learned that in Zadar they were going to establish

12     another point of reference for us, but no, it was very confusing, I must

13     say, from this point of view.  There was not clear -- clear idea on what

14     was happening, no.

15        Q.   And building on that point you raised about confusion, is it fair

16     to say that there was an element of confusion as to in fact who

17     Mr. Cermak was and what his job was?

18        A.   No.  No, because in fact most of the people in the area were

19     militaries.

20        Q.   All right.  Well, given your particular function and relatively

21     limited time in the area by the events of post-Operation Storm, is it

22     accurate to say that you were not familiar with the functioning and

23     operating of the Croatian military structure post-Operation Storm?

24        A.   This was a field of interest for UNMOs, not for me.

25        Q.   So you would agree that you were not familiar with that aspect,

Page 12044

 1     would you?

 2        A.   No.  I don't know how the Croatian military structure was.

 3        Q.   And you didn't know how a garrison functioned in Croatia at that

 4     time, did you, Ms. Mauro?

 5        A.   I'm not a military person, Ms. Higgins.

 6        Q.   No.  The reason I'm asking you this is because you feel able to

 7     make points about overall jurisdiction of individuals, so I'm sure you

 8     can understand that I'm asking to see the remits of your knowledge,

 9     Ms. Mauro.

10             Now, the next question is:  Either at the time or sometime

11     thereafter, did you come to know that there was no such position in

12     Croatia as military governor?

13        A.   Not exactly.

14        Q.   When asked by my learned friend to give the factors upon which

15     you based your assumption that Mr. Cermak was the main authority in the

16     area, you stated that it was "... undoubtful because within our own

17     hierarchy the person we were relating to was him..." and that in fact,

18     there was liaison between General Forand and General Cermak, correct?

19        A.   Not exactly.

20        Q.   That's what you said, Ms. Mauro, so perhaps you can help me.

21        A.   Yes.  I said that he was liaising formally with Mr. Forand and

22     Mr. Al-Alfi, but that he was -- he was the only person who we could

23     relate to.  That's what I'm saying -- that's what I said, and that's what

24     I repeat.  There was nobody else we could relate to.

25        Q.   The information that you had about his authority and his title

Page 12045

 1     was based on what you had been told by others within the UN.  Is that

 2     right?

 3        A.   My colleagues.

 4        Q.   Your colleagues.  Where did you get the information that

 5     Mr. Cermak was the governor of Knin from?

 6        A.   He was referred to as such.

 7        Q.   By who?

 8        A.   Everybody.

 9        Q.   Do you remember who told you that information?

10        A.   It was not an information.  He was called like that.

11        Q.   Within the UN?

12        A.   Yes.  We -- none of us was really speaking Croatian there, so I

13     don't know if also Croatians would refer to them this way, but the

14     interpreters used this translation.

15        Q.   Did you ever come to know that he was appointed in fact as the

16     garrison commander and that was his correct title?

17        A.   No, I didn't know he was a garrison commander.

18        Q.   I'd like to now move to another topic of questioning, and I'd

19     like to move to the issue of notification to Mr. Cermak about crimes that

20     were happening in the area?

21             Just so that you have a point of reference, Ms. Mauro, I'm going

22     to first of all be looking at your 2000 statement, page 3 of that

23     statement.

24             On page 3 - I'll read it back to you - it states:  "I know that

25     Cermak and his aides were told on a number of occasions about killings,

Page 12046

 1     lootings and burnings of Serbian houses."

 2             Do you remember that part?

 3        A.   Mm-hm.

 4        Q.   And again, you know that because you were told that by others in

 5     the UN who were higher up than you who had the meetings with Mr. Cermak.

 6     Is that right?

 7        A.   Yeah.  Besides this few times we met, but then, yes.  We were

 8     sharing information among UN people.

 9        Q.   You also say:  "I recall Croatian officials there" -- on the same

10     page -- "saying something like, it must be revenge for what has gone on

11     before, and some of the people responsible are uncontrolled groups."

12             Was that a common point of view at that time as to the cause of

13     some of the crimes?

14        A.   Well, the revenge was definitely one of -- one of the issue, yes.

15        Q.   You didn't ascribe in your statement any particular Croatian

16     official, and I presume that's to do so with the passage of time and

17     you're unable to do so?

18        A.   That's absolutely correct.  I can remember there were some

19     parliamentarian coming.  There was a delegation of parliamentarian coming

20     once.  There was some Red Cross officials coming from time to time.

21        Q.   Now, I want to move onto another part, and this concerns --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Higgins, may I seek some clarification of that

23     last answer.  You said you do not know exactly who told you, and then you

24     give two -- you refer to two type of persons, parliamentarians, Red Cross

25     people.  Did you want to say it was either of the two or either some of

Page 12047

 1     the -- one of the parliamentarians or one of the Red Cross people, or did

 2     you want to say it was I heard it from one of the parliamentarians and I

 3     also heard it -- it's not clear for me what your answer was.

 4             THE WITNESS:  I don't recall exactly, but I remember that the

 5     revenge was one of the reasons that it was advocated for what was

 6     happening by parliamentarians.  But you know, there was this big

 7     delegation coming in, and you would talk to someone in the outskirts.  It

 8     was --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You now use the plural "parliamentarians."

10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You earlier also referred to the Red Cross.  Did you

12     hear it from one person, whether parliamentarian or Red Cross, or did you

13     hear it from more persons?

14             THE WITNESS:  I heard from more persons, but I don't remember who

15     they were.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

17             Please proceed.

18             MS. HIGGINS:

19        Q.   I want to come onto, now, a specific example going back, again,

20     to your 2000 statement, and if I may read it back to you so that you have

21     it before you.  The passage is the following:  "I am aware that General

22     Forand regularly complained to General Cermak, and I'm aware of a letter

23     or report sent by Cermak to Forand, suggesting that the houses were not

24     being burnt and that there was no problem."

25             Do you recall that aspect of your statement?

Page 12048

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Now, Ms. Mauro, did you ever see the document that you refer to

 3     there yourself and the signature on that document?

 4        A.   I'm not sure.

 5        Q.   We know from your evidence in chief that on the 4th of September

 6     - and my learned friend referred to P36, which came up on the screen

 7     during your evidence - you were told that on the 4th of September, that

 8     Mr. Cermak was out of town.  Do you recall that?

 9        A.   I recall that we went through that.

10        Q.   Yes.  Do you know or did you know at the time when Mr. Cermak

11     left town, when he came back from town?  Were you given that information

12     at any point?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   You referred in your evidence in chief to the denial attitude,

15     and that's something I want to briefly address with you now.

16             In those debriefing sessions that were held with Mr. Al-Alfi,

17     were you also made aware at that time of Mr. Cermak's position that

18     crimes were indeed taking place and were labelled by him as a shame on

19     Croatia?  Did that come to your attention?

20        A.   Possible.

21        Q.   Can I see if I can assist you by referring back to

22     contemporaneous records of Mr. Al-Alfi's, because that might jog your

23     memory.

24             MS. HIGGINS:  Mr. Registrar, if I could have D56, please, on the

25     screen, and if I could have page 3 of that document, please.

Page 12049

 1        Q.   Just for the record, Ms. Mauro, this is a UN report from

 2     Mr. Al-Alfi dated the 18th of August, and it's sent to Mr. Pavo Pitkinen

 3     [phoen] in the UN HQ in Zagreb, and he refers there to a meeting that he

 4     had that afternoon with General Cermak, and he refers to others who were

 5     present during that meeting.

 6             If you look at paragraph 2 on that page, it reads that:  "During

 7     the meeting, I also brought to the attention of General Cermak our

 8     concern about the continuing reports of houses and farms set on fire in

 9     the villages and looting, and asked him about the measures taken from his

10     side to stop such acts.  General Cermak shared this concern with us and

11     expressed his unhappiness about its continuation.  He promised tough

12     action against those who commit such acts.  He also explained that some

13     of the acts may be carried out by civilians who returned to the area and

14     seek revenge, taking advantage of the lifting of restrictions on their

15     movement in the area."

16             Ms. Mauro, there is no aspect there, is there, of a denial

17     attitude in respect of his response to Mr. Al-Alfi?

18        A.   No.  There was in this letter in September there.

19        Q.   I'm asking you now about --

20        A.   No.  I said no.

21        Q.   -- this document in context.

22        A.   Mm-hm.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. HIGGINS:  D151, please, Mr. Registrar.

25        Q.   Just for the record, again, as the document is being pulled up

Page 12050

 1     onto the screen, this is almost a week later.  Again, it's the same

 2     format of reports from Mr. Al-Alfi to the UNCRO HQ in Zagreb, and it's

 3     dated the 24th of August.

 4             On the first page, we see reference there to 1330 hours in the

 5     afternoon, General Forand had a meeting with General Cermak, meeting was

 6     held in the office of General Cermak, and the PHAC participated in the

 7     meeting.  Now the PHAC was Mr. Al-Alfi; is that right?  Civil affairs

 8     coordinator, yes?

 9        A.   If this is from him.

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can I go to the next page, please, paragraph 5.  Again, there,

13     you see reference to the fact that:  "We brought the continuation of

14     burning houses and looting in the area to the attention of General Cermak

15     and asked him to such" -- "stop", rather -- "such acts.  He accepted this

16     fact regarding the continuation of such incidents..."  and you can read

17     to whom he attributed them to if you continue to read the paragraph.  I'm

18     not going to read it all out to you.  You can see there, there's

19     reference by him to the fact that in his opinion the area is very vast,

20     and he would be lying if he told us that nothing of this sort would

21     continue to happen.

22             Do you see that?

23        A.   What we were not understanding is why the strict orders were not

24     reaching the people on the ground.

25        Q.   Well, Ms. Mauro, you're not able to assist me with the de facto,

Page 12051

 1     the factual authority that Mr. Cermak actually had, are you?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mauro is telling us what came to her mind and,

 3     of course, she should not explore that.  But, Ms. Higgins, she told us

 4     what they did not understand at the time --

 5             MS. HIGGINS:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  -- which is a personal observation, and she is

 7     entitled to include that in her answer.

 8             Please proceed.

 9             MS. HIGGINS:  Thank you.

10        Q.   And finally, if I could have onto the screen, please, D59.

11             Ms. Mauro, during your time in Knin, as the document is coming

12     onto the screen, were you able to access some of the Croatian media

13     articles that were being published?

14        A.   When I had time.

15        Q.   Yes.  Was there someone there to assist with the translation of

16     those articles?

17        A.   Of course, yes.

18        Q.   Yes.  Can I ask to you look at this one in particular, which is

19     an article from one of the main newspapers, Slobodna Dalmacija, and it's

20     dated 7th of September, 1995.

21             It's an interview with Mr. Cermak, and you can see the title

22     there:  "There is no place for looters in the Croatian army."  And if you

23     just read that article to yourself for a moment.

24             Was that an article that came to your attention at that stage?

25        A.   No.

Page 12052

 1        Q.   You can see that the article refers to the launching of

 2     operations to resolve problems there related to illegal appropriation of

 3     apartments, looting, and the torching of homes.

 4             Was it something that came up ever in those debriefing meetings,

 5     Ms. Mauro?

 6        A.   Well, in our debriefing it came up the opposite.

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   So this couldn't come up because, indeed, we were every day

 9     noticing that, unfortunately, it was continuing and that people were

10     still in a very dreadful situation, and dead bodies were exhumed --

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   -- and found, elderly people.

13        Q.   I understand that.

14        A.   So, no, we didn't come to our debriefing up, unfortunately, that

15     there were elements of substantial and determined action to stop what we

16     were denouncing.

17        Q.   The reason I'm asking you is, of course, because some of those

18     reports were from Mr. Al-Alfi himself who headed up those debriefing

19     meetings, so I'm trying to give you an opportunity to comment upon those.

20        A.   If I may continue, probably we understood that there was a

21     difference between facts and words.

22        Q.   Well, you've assisted me as far as you can with those reports.

23     What I'd like to finally deal with with you is the issue of Grubori, if I

24     can deal with it briefly.

25             You have already explained to us and we've seen the report

Page 12053

 1     whereby you go and take your concerns to Mr. Romanic, you have a meeting

 2     with Mr. Romanic, and you ask him to come to a meeting with the local

 3     residents in the Plavno valley --

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.    -- which you set up to take place on the 25th of August.  Is

 6     that right?

 7        A.   Well, I guess he set up because we could have gone immediately,

 8     seen the conditions of the people there; we would have gone back

 9     straightaway.  But we gave him, obviously, the opportunity to decide when

10     it was more convenient to him, so he set the date.

11        Q.   And we know from one of your reports, the report that deals with

12     this meeting, that it was proposed that both he and Mr. Pasic, who was

13     the governor's commissioner, would both attend Plavno on the 25th of

14     August.

15        A.   I don't remember Mr. Pasic.  It's possible, but I don't remember

16     Mr. Pasic in this moment.  I remember Mr. Romanic.  He would come,

17     obviously, with someone else but ...

18        Q.   If you take it from me, those are the names that are referred to

19     in your own HRAT report; and if you want to see it, I'm sure you can be

20     provided with a copy of it.  It's P46.

21        A.   I'm not denying that Mr. Pasic wouldn't come.  Would come, sorry.

22        Q.   Now, you were present with a team on the 25th when you were

23     visiting the hamlet of Zoric in the Plavno area, and that's when you saw

24     smoke on the other side of the mountain whereby your team moved to travel

25     to what we know to be Grubori, correct?

Page 12054

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Is it right that on that day, you were present with Mr. Flynn?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Mr. Roberts?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Romassev, member of UN CIVPOL?

 7        A.   It is possible.  There was UN CIVPOL, but I don't remember his

 8     name.  They were not always the same person, so they were rotating.  So I

 9     don't remember everyday the name of every day --

10        Q.   Sure, I understand.  Can you assist me with who else was there as

11     a member of that group?

12        A.   Yes.  Was also someone from UNHCR.  I mean, the person

13     responsible for the UNHCR office.

14        Q.   Do you remember the name?

15        A.   Of course I do.

16        Q.   Yeah?  Who was it?

17        A.   Olivier Mouquat.

18        Q.   How do you spell the surname, please?

19        A.   M-O-U-Q-U-A-T.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Anyone else?

21        A.   As international staff, I don't remember.  Probably, there was

22     also an UNMO.  Most probably there was, but I don't remember.  I remember

23     these people.

24        Q.   Now I want to ask -- sorry.  Please continue.

25        A.   No.  And also about Alun Roberts, I'm not completely certain,

Page 12055

 1     actually, about Alun Roberts.  I'm not completely certain if he joined us

 2     after but ... yeah.

 3        Q.   I'd like to ask you about when you come to leave Grubori and you

 4     go back to Knin.

 5        A.   Mm-hm.

 6        Q.   You've told us from your first statement that that afternoon at

 7     1630, "... we reported to General Cermak's office so they would respond

 8     but there was no response that day."

 9             Do you recall that part of your statement at page 5?

10        A.   I -- I repeat that there was another instance when we went, and

11     there was no response, also, so probably was two times because it's --

12     what you are trying to ask me?

13        Q.   I'm only asking you to confirm that at 1630 --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   -- on the 25th, you went to the office of Mr. Cermak as you call

16     it, and you went there with who?  Do you recall?

17        A.   Well, I told you already.  I don't even remember if I was part of

18     the team who went in the office of General Cermak that day.  I remember

19     that there was another instance, always in Plavno area, where I went,

20     part of the team in General Cermak's office.  But I do recall that part

21     of the people who were with us did go to inform General Cermak.

22        Q.   And is it right that none of those individuals who went actually

23     spoke to Mr. Cermak himself?  They, rather, spoke to a Mr. Dondo, who was

24     one of the HV liaison officers.  Can you help me with that?

25        A.   I'm afraid not.

Page 12056

 1        Q.   Right.  So you're not sure whether you went into the building or

 2     you stayed outside.  Is that right?

 3        A.   I'm not even sure whether -- because we were more cars.

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   I'm not even sure whether I went to the office or I went directly

 6     to the headquarter.

 7        Q.   Can you help me with whether or not you were the individual who

 8     had a conversation with Mr. Dondo?

 9        A.   Me?

10        Q.   Yes.

11        A.   If I'm telling that I don't even remember that I went to the

12     office.

13        Q.   Well, I'm asking you about whether you recall a conversation, so

14     you can help me with that, perhaps.

15        A.   I said already no.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether or not or can you remember

17     whether the matter was reported that day by one your team to the police

18     in Knin?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   You can't remember, or you don't know?

21        A.   No.  No.  I -- I don't remember.

22        Q.   Okay.  Did you have any knowledge about how crime investigations

23     worked and functioned within Croatian society at that point,

24     post-Operation Storm?

25        A.   Only what I was told about looting, for instance.  It was not

Page 12057

 1     prosecuted.

 2        Q.   Did you know anything about the responsibility of the crime

 3     police to investigate incidents that had taken place?  Was that something

 4     within your knowledge as a patroller?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   But we were not asked to refer to crime police.  We never were

 8     asked to refer to crime police.

 9        Q.   I'm just asking you about your knowledge of how the crime police

10     worked.  You understand, Ms. Mauro?

11        A.   Well, you're asking me the responsibility of the crime police,

12     but we were not even aware that there was a crime police.  So how we

13     could know that they were responsible to investigate incident?

14        Q.   You had a meeting with Mr. Romanic.  How many meetings with him

15     did you have?

16        A.   I didn't count them, and remember, 13 years later, surely not.

17        Q.   Did you know who the commander of the Knin police station was?

18        A.   It seemed him.  He was -- at least he was the chief of police,

19     then if there's a difference between commander and a chief of police, I

20     don't know.

21        Q.   Now, in your statement, you said that there was no response that

22     day in respect of Grubori.  Did it come to your knowledge ever that in

23     fact the liaison officer that I have referred to, Mr. Dondo, went to

24     Grubori the next day and provided information to the police in Croatia?

25     Did you know about that?

Page 12058

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you go back to Grubori, Ms. Mauro?

 3        A.   Yes.  Because we saw these other houses burning, as I mentioned

 4     to you earlier.

 5        Q.   Did you ever go in --

 6        A.   Not Grubori, sorry.  We went to Plavno.

 7        Q.   To Plavno?

 8        A.   Yes.  But it was a valley, and all these villages, Grubori was,

 9     coming from Knin, was on your right side, and then you had Zoric, was on

10     your left side, and then in the front you had more villages, so it was

11     all a big valley.

12        Q.   Did you go back to the Grubori village or not?

13        A.   Not up.

14        Q.   Right.

15        A.   I was down, yes, where the school was, yes.  Yeah, there were

16     houses down in the valley.  Yeah, I went there, but not up, up.

17        Q.   As you had been the one who had gone to bring the information to

18     Mr. Romanic's attention and to set up the meeting, did you ever go back

19     to Mr. Romanic to find out the reason why he was not there on the 25th at

20     the meeting?

21        A.   I am certain that knowing my professional morale, I did.  I don't

22     know if he had already left by then.  This I don't remember, but yes.

23        Q.   What was his response?

24        A.   Again, I mentioned, I don't know if he had already left by then.

25        Q.   Well --

Page 12059

 1        A.   So I don't remember his response if there was one, but we were

 2     definitely astonished about what happened in Grubori.

 3        Q.   What I'm asking you about is whether you went back and asked

 4     Mr. Romanic why he did not attend, and if you did so, could you give me

 5     the date, please?

 6        A.   No, I can't give the date now, but what I'm saying -- I just

 7     said, is that Mr. Romanic probably had already left, but I'm certain that

 8     we went back to the police to say, to inform what had happened.

 9        Q.   Are you able to give me a HRAT report reference out of one of the

10     50 documents as to where I might find that record, please?

11        A.   No, because also if you notice, there is not everything written

12     on what we had discussed with Mr. Romanic in the HRAT report, if you

13     noticed.

14        Q.   I did notice, yes.

15        A.   Reading the report, yes.  So were would just write -- we were

16     investigating human rights.  Then would have been a different report, and

17     if there was something very important to -- to mention, would be in the

18     HRAT.  Otherwise, would not even be mentioned but ...

19        Q.   Ms. Mauro, it's not in the HRATs --

20        A.   Yes --

21        Q.   -- which is why I'm asking you.

22        A.   So probably, we couldn't see him.

23        Q.   Thank you very much.

24             MS. HIGGINS:  I have no further questions.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

Page 12060

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Higgins.

 2             Could I first of all inquire as to the time, Mr. Kuzmanovic?

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Probably less than an hour, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Less than an hour.

 5             Mr. Misetic.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  No more than 15 minutes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the parties try?  We have -- yes, it must be

 8     possible, therefore, to conclude the testimony of this witness today.

 9             Ms. Mahindaratne, could you give us any indication as to much

10     time you would need in re-examination?

11             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I have only one question.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  One question until now.

13             Mr. Kuzmanovic, I think it would be best that you start the

14     cross-examination because it would be a bit early for a break and then go

15     on for another hour.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  No problem, Your Honour.  I just need the

17     lectern, please.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Mauro, you will now be cross-examined by

19     Mr. Kuzmanovic who is counsel for Mr. Markac.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

22        Q.   Ms. Mauro, you were -- I just want to start where Ms. Higgins

23     left off.  You said, I believe, that Mr. Romanic, when you were referring

24     to follow up with him, had left by then.  You mean left -- left where?

25     The Knin area by then?

Page 12061

 1        A.   Yeah.  He left suddenly.  Again, I -- I apologise not having that

 2     good memory, but one day we went to see him, and we were told that he was

 3     not working anymore in Knin.  He was transferred.  And I don't remember

 4     exactly when that was.

 5        Q.   Well, there is a HRAT report dated the 23rd of September, which

 6     is a little less than a month after the incident at Grubori where you

 7     indicate that you met with Mr. Romanic, the chief of police for the Knin

 8     area.  So it had to be at that point in time he still had not left.

 9        A.   That's correct.  But he would also leave Knin for a while and

10     then come back.

11        Q.   Okay.  The point is that you yourself had never reported this

12     incident at Grubori to Mr. Romanic, correct?

13        A.   No.  I don't think it's correct.  But --

14        Q.   Well, tell me in what document that is it correct if there is a

15     document that says something to that effect, that you, Ms. Mauro, or the

16     HRAT reported this incident to Mr. Romanic.

17        A.   Well, I think that probably we reported to Cermak, General

18     Cermak, and we thought that was most appropriate because the people, we

19     saw them, were in military uniform.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, if you read page 68, line 23, you

22     see that the witness wanted to continue her answer.  She said "but".  "I

23     don't think it's correct, but..." and then you interrupted her.

24             Could you please allow the witness to finish her answers.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sure.

Page 12062

 1        Q.   Go ahead.  If you wanted to add something there, please feel

 2     free.

 3        A.   But I think I did.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you meanwhile did, but I'm urging

 5     Mr. Kuzmanovic to give you immediately the possibility to finish your

 6     answers.

 7             THE WITNESS:  I appreciate it.  It's very, very --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             THE WITNESS:  -- professional from you.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE AGIUS:  Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   The report that you wrote on Grubori was a three-day report,

13     correct?  It encompassed three days; it wasn't an individual report per

14     day.

15        A.   I do not have it in front of me.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  P27.  If we could pull that up, please.

17        Q.   This is actually a four-day report encompassing the 24th through

18     the 27th of 1995.  Can you please tell me why there wasn't a separate

19     report written for each day?

20        A.   Good question.  I think that we were really trying to work hard

21     and to see how we could help these people and reassure these people, so

22     we were most of the time out in -- in -- in the field, and could have

23     coincided, also, with the arrival of some delegations.

24        Q.   This was the time of the arrival of President Tudjman on the

25     train, correct?

Page 12063

 1        A.   Possible.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to page 4 of this report, Mr.

 3     Registrar.

 4        Q.   At the bottom of this page, Ms. Mauro, there are three sets of

 5     initials.

 6        A.   Yeah.

 7        Q.   EJ Flynn is the first, correct?

 8        A.   Si.

 9        Q.   And then yours are the second initials, correct?  MTM?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Who is PS?

12        A.   Peter Soucek.

13        Q.   And who was he?

14        A.   He was this civilian affairs officer who was covering the area of

15     Korenica.

16        Q.   And did the three of you put this report together?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Together?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Was there any input from anyone else?

21        A.   No.  Well, there could have been input from military and the

22     CIVPOL, but we would -- you know, security situation could have been --

23     any information we got from -- technical information we would get from

24     militaries, yes.  Could be possible then.

25        Q.   For this particular debriefing for which this report was written,

Page 12064

 1     can you recall, other than the three of you, the names of anyone else who

 2     may have participated in this writing?

 3        A.   No.  Nobody else would have participated.  Again, we would have

 4     received information of technical military nature or others by CIVPOL,

 5     but -- sorry, UNMOs, military but -- no.

 6        Q.   Mr. Mauro, I ask, please, if you would let me finish my question,

 7     and I will let you finish your answer.  Thank you.

 8             You'll notice on the first page of P27, if we could go to P27 on

 9     page 1 of this same document.

10             Paragraph 2, the first full paragraph, the bold section where it

11     says:  "Late update."

12             Now, the late update on the 27th -- and I'll read from the -- the

13     bold section.  It says:  "A HRAT which travelled to Grubori on the

14     afternoon of 27 August has received reliable reports of a group of ten

15     camouflage-clad Croatian special police moving up the road to Grubori

16     mid-morning on 25 August."

17             My question to you is, Were you aware or was anyone on your team

18     aware that the Croatian special police never wore camouflage uniforms?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Are you aware that the army of the Republika Srpska military

21     forces most often wore camouflage uniforms?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   If we could go to P46, please.

24             Before we get to P46, were you aware that after Operation Storm

25     into late August/early September, there were groups of ARSK soldiers in

Page 12065

 1     the woods, in the various areas north and east and south of Knin?

 2        A.   I was aware there were some ARSK soldiers who called in the area.

 3        Q.   And these were groups of soldiers that were hiding out in the

 4     woods, and do you know that one of the purposes of the mop-up operations

 5     was to find these individuals?

 6        A.   Well, I also know that some of them basically asked us to

 7     facilitate their release.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   And we did.  In a couple of instances, I was personally involved.

10        Q.   I understand that, but I'd like you to answer my question, which

11     was ...

12        A.   Well, if you to have to look for your question, then maybe there

13     was not one, right?

14        Q.   There was one --

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic asked whether you were -- whether you

16     knew that one of the purposes of the mop-up operations was to find these

17     individuals.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

20             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   P46, which is the 23rd of August, 1995, HRAT report, on the last

22     page of this document, which is a three-page document, there are your

23     initials.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we can go to the last page, please.

25        Q.   And I think you had mentioned earlier in your testimony that if

Page 12066

 1     your initials were on a document, you had participated in putting the

 2     document together, correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  Now, I -- in this case, I guess I wrote the document.

 4        Q.   Okay.  This is a document that you wrote, P46, from what your

 5     understanding is?

 6        A.   I can read --

 7        Q.   Sure.  If we want to go back to the first page, and if you'd like

 8     to take a look at the document to confirm that, that would help, if that

 9     would help --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, have you looked at the screen a

11     second ago?  Please pause between question and answer.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             THE WITNESS:  Can we go back to --

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sure.  If we could go back.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mauro, if we do not make a small pause between

16     question and answer, the transcriber cannot follow us.

17             THE WITNESS:  Thank you for reminding me.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you also try to assist us.

19             Please proceed.

20             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

22        Q.   Ms. Mauro, since we both speak the same language and the

23     back-and-forth is a natural event of my questioning and your answering,

24     sometimes my speed and your speed makes the translation not be able to

25     stay with us, so ...

Page 12067

 1             It has nothing to do with the skill of the transcribers or the

 2     interpreters.

 3             Please feel free to take a look at this document, and if there's

 4     anything in there...

 5             We had discussed this document -- you had discussed this document

 6     with Ms. Higgins.  You remember participating in this meeting?

 7        A.   I called for this meeting.

 8        Q.   If you take a look at page 2 of this document, you've got in

 9     section 6:  Mr. Jukic joined the meeting.  And you were made aware -- or

10     participants in the meeting were made aware that:  "... a collection of

11     dead human bodies is being carried out by a specialized team operating in

12     the Knin area.  According to him, this team is composed of one doctor,

13     one burial specialist, and one criminal investigator."

14             Now, knowing this from your meeting on August 23rd of 1995, is

15     there a reason why you did not go to Mr. Romanic and ask for this type of

16     team to come to Grubori?

17        A.   Well, again, I thought we were under the impression that General

18     Cermak would have helped us in Grubori, in particular, because there were

19     people in uniform, military uniform when we were there, so we thought

20     that by informing him he would, as responsible, anyway, and the authority

21     in Croatia, we were an international organisation.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to point 8 of this document.

24        Q.   The document further says:  "Mr. Jukic, along the line adopted by

25     Mr. Romanic, invited UN representatives to direct reports relating to the

Page 12068

 1     dead bodies detected in Sector South to the civil defence."

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Yeah, go ahead if you have a comment.

 4        A.   After you.

 5        Q.   My question to you is, so you're specifically being directed -

 6     meaning UN representatives and international people, I would assume - to

 7     direct any information that you have regarding dead bodies directly to

 8     the civil defence?

 9        A.   That's what we did, and the dead body of two or four people, I

10     remember, remained lying in the village not far from Knin for days and

11     days.

12        Q.   Okay.  But I'm -- I'm sorry.

13        A.   So we had informed, as I suggested, the civilian defence, but we

14     saw that we didn't really succeed in removing these dead bodies.

15        Q.   Okay.  This is four days before -- two days before Grubori,

16     though, correct, you're being told this?  Grubori was the 25th of August,

17     and this meeting was the 23rd of August.

18        A.   I think that these bodies we are referring to were after.

19        Q.   Okay.  But at least as far as Grubori was concerned, you did not

20     follow the suggestion here by Mr. Jukic and Mr. Romanic to report dead

21     bodies detected in Sector South to civil defence, correct?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   My statement is correct?

24        A.   Yes.  We didn't go to see Mr. Jukic in that precise instance.

25        Q.   Or Mr. Romanic?

Page 12069

 1        A.   Mr. Romanic, I think we did go, not immediately, but we did

 2     inform him on what had happened.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, did you yourself go back to Grubori the same day

 4     after you came back to Knin, meaning you went to Grubori, came back to

 5     Knin, and then went to Grubori the same day?

 6        A.   I don't think so.

 7        Q.   Did Mr. -- did anyone from your group stay in Grubori the entire

 8     time and come back later that evening?

 9        A.   I'm not certain, but if I recall correctly, someone did go in the

10     afternoon, after -- went back.  There was movement --

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   -- from our side.

13        Q.   Maybe my question wasn't clear enough.

14             Was there a group from your group that went to Grubori that day

15     that stayed when another portion of your group came back to Knin in the

16     afternoon?

17        A.   I don't remember if they stayed or if they came back and then

18     they returned.

19        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

20        A.   To you.

21        Q.   Now, one of your reports talks about the surrender of 14 RSK

22     members, 12 miles -- or 12 kilometres from Knin, not too far from Plavno.

23     I will find that report in a second.

24        A.   But not too far from Plavno is your assumption or...

25        Q.   I will get to that in a second.

Page 12070

 1        A.   I see.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  P48.

 3        Q.   Before I get to P48, were you aware of any other instances of

 4     ARSK fighters either surrendering or being captured by any Croatian

 5     military forces before this particular report of the 28th of August that

 6     we're referring to in P46?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Or P48?  Okay.  P48 is dated on the cover page of 29th of August,

 9     1995.

10             If we go to the next page of that document, please.

11             Were you present at this surrender?

12        A.   Yes.  Well, I was present when the RSK soldiers, so-called RSK,

13     decided to surrender.  I went up to this village to talk to them.

14        Q.   Did you go -- when you talked to them, was this a more than

15     one-day event?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Did you go to -- do you know of anyone else that might have gone

18     there a day or two earlier to talk to these people?

19        A.   What I know is that just a few hours before, I went -- I had

20     gone, the military observers or military, and that's why I went, because

21     they wanted us to deal with -- with the matter and to involve, also, the

22     Red Cross and to be certain that we would have the right liaison between

23     military and civilian.

24        Q.   Was Mr. Ermolaev involved in this?  Does that name ring a bell to

25     you?

Page 12071

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   How about Mr. Tchernetsky?

 3        A.   There was with me a police -- a civil police officer.  There was

 4     also an UNMO, and there was also the national officer of the human rights

 5     centre for -- Centre for Human Rights, and an interpreter.

 6        Q.   I realize it was a long time ago, but do you recall the names of

 7     any of those people?

 8        A.   No.  Probably the interpreter but ...

 9        Q.   We don't want you to guess.

10        A.   No.  Probably, because they could have about two, one or the

11     other, but I still don't want to say the names in public.

12        Q.   The --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  If at any point, Ms. Mauro, you have hesitation when

14     referring to other people, to give their names, and if you would feel

15     comfortable to do that in private session, you always may address me, and

16     of course, it also depends on to what extent the parties are really

17     seeking those names, but...

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, for purposes of this, I would just

19     suggest we go briefly into private session, just if we can get the names,

20     and then we can move back.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. Mauro, we will turn into private session.

22     That means what you'll say is not on the public record.  I just took the

23     opportunity to inform you that this is a possibility, that even when you

24     testify in open session that portions, especially where you have concerns

25     about other people, can be given in private session.  I do understand now

Page 12072

 1     that Mr. Kuzmanovic would like you to answer the question, also, with the

 2     details of the names.

 3             So we turn into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  With respect to the --

Page 12073

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   With respect to the 30 Croatian special police soldiers that were

 5     in this report, were you present when they arrived on the scene?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And there was some tension there, correct?

 8        A.   A lot.

 9        Q.   But it ended up being defused, and the individuals were

10     essentially taken into custody without any significant issue of any kind,

11     correct?

12        A.   Actually, they were not taken in custody that day.

13        Q.   Okay.  Can you describe what happened?

14        A.   What happened was that we discussed with the colonel, I guess,

15     responsible for the group of 30 Croatian soldiers, and he spoke to them,

16     and it was agreed that they could have surrendered and that they would

17     have been guaranteed fair treatment in the prison, and we reassured them

18     that we would have taken their names up, and indeed, we went to visit

19     them in prison afterwards.  But they were taken -- taken away one day

20     after.

21        Q.   Okay.  So that had to be some significant trust between both the

22     Croatian special police and you to leave them there, correct?

23        A.   Well, I think that there was trust among the three of us at the

24     end, because it was a very tense situation in the beginning, and we could

25     have been misinterpreted, but -- by both sides, but then it was

Page 12074

 1     explained.

 2        Q.   And everything ended up working out?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   The Croatian special police did take weapons away from these ARSK

 5     fighters, correct?

 6        A.   I think so.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go, please, to P1100.

 8        Q.   This is a 25th September, 1995, report, Ms. Mauro.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the next page of the document,

10     please.

11        Q.   In the first paragraph of this document, there's a discussion

12     about making arrangements to assist persons to get their Croatian

13     documentation, correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, in the fourth line, it says -- the full sentence says:  "The

16     rest of people have to apply in Gracac municipality, while others, which

17     were previously registered in areas where the registration books have

18     been burned or lost, were only enlisted by the police."

19             Now, my first question to you is, what do you mean by "only

20     enlisted by the police"?

21        A.   There were not provided with documents, and there was no record

22     of who they were, where they were living.

23        Q.   Were you aware in many areas of the RSK in Sector South that the

24     local Serb population either destroyed or took the birth registration and

25     citizenship registration documentation with them when they left?

Page 12075

 1        A.   No.  I know that documents of this kind were missing.

 2        Q.   How they were missing, you're not certain?

 3        A.   No.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to the next page of this

 5     document.

 6        Q.   You had mentioned -- the last paragraph of this report you had

 7     talked about in one of your statements, Ms. Mauro, and that's your

 8     discussion with Mr. Barisic who was the coordinator for the Gracac area

 9     from the Ministry of Interior.

10             There's some discussion here from Mr. Barisic where he says that

11     the area was difficult to control because of its size being 200 square

12     kilometres under the jurisdiction of Gracac, and that in the southern

13     part of this area of responsibility, former HV soldiers and thus wearing

14     uniforms were undertaking criminal actions and are particularly

15     aggressive.  It was also mentioned of bringing charges against 30 to 35

16     of them.

17             Were you aware at the time, I guess, subsequent to your time

18     spent in Croatia of how many persons were charged and/or prosecuted of

19     either crimes of looting or any other kind of crime in Sector South?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   When did you leave Sector South?

22        A.   December.

23        Q.   Of 1995?  Yes?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   One last question for you, Ms. Mauro, or subject matter.

Page 12076

 1             You came in March of 1995 to Croatia, correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you were a civil affairs officer for the UN?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And were you -- you were based in Knin?

 6        A.   As of March, yes.

 7        Q.   And what did you do up until the time of Operation Storm as a

 8     civil affairs officer in Sector South in Knin?

 9        A.   Well, I was looking after the well-being of the minority at that

10     time, the Croatian population in -- in the sector.

11        Q.   Did you go on patrols?

12        A.   Yes, regularly, and I did my utmost to ensure that they would be

13     taken care of, and I also mobilized the UN military, the medical teams of

14     the UN militaries to provide assistance.  I tried to facilitate

15     encounters between the Croatian population living in -- in the sector and

16     their family living in Croatia proper.

17        Q.   Did you have an occasion to go into the Plavno valley area while

18     -- before Operation Storm?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.

22     Thank you.

23        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Mauro.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25             Mr. Misetic, I'm wondering, perhaps, we could first have a break

Page 12077

 1     now.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mauro, we'll have a break, and we will resume at

 4     6.00.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 9             Ms. Mauro, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Misetic.

10     Mr. Misetic is counsel for Mr. Gotovina.

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.  Just if I may.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS:  Going back to the previous examination, I also

14     would like to draw the attention of the gentleman on a report dated 12

15     October 1995, where, indeed, we met civil defence representatives, but it

16     was very difficult to understand who was doing what, and it's clearly

17     specified that no one knew, really, who was this charge.  So the reason

18     why probably we did not -- we were not so strict in addressing the

19     problem of dead bodies -  besides the fact that they were not removed,

20     they weren't done - was also that we perceived that the office was not

21     working probably.  So the report is dated 12 October 1995.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  You'd like to add that to your answer to the

23     question put to you by Mr. Kuzmanovic about why you did not report this

24     to Mr. Jukic or at least Mr. Jukic's service?

25             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  Thank you.

Page 12078

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

 2             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Misetic:

 4        Q.   Good evening, Ms. Mauro.

 5        A.   Good evening.

 6             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have Exhibit P62

 7     on the screen, and if I could ask Mr. Usher to assist the witness.

 8        Q.   Ms. Mauro, in your 2000 statement, which is P1098, at page 2

 9     towards the bottom, you mention when discussing the shelling, you say:

10     "The shelling was intense, and we lived in a residential area with a

11     school nearby, but I am aware that the school area did at some stage

12     contain some military equipment."

13             What I'm going to ask you to do is -- we'll show you an aerial

14     map of Knin, and if you could circle and mark with an "A" the area where

15     you lived, and mark with a "B" and circle the school that you're

16     referring to.

17             Can you orient yourself here on this map?

18        A.   I'm not familiar with military aerial maps.

19        Q.   Well, if you look off in the right-hand part of the screen,

20     you'll see the UN barracks, the Sector South headquarters.  Do you see

21     that?  The UN camp.

22        A.   Can you tell me which part?

23        Q.   On the right-hand side of the screen --

24        A.   Mm-hm.

25        Q.   -- you'll see a see --

Page 12079

 1        A.   Okay.

 2        Q.   -- a circled -- or a blacked-off area?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   That's the UN compound.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   So does that help you orient yourself in Knin?

 7        A.   Yeah, especially if you indicate, please, where is the entrance?

 8        Q.   That would be - let's see - on the -- if you look in the upper

 9     left-hand corner, you see where north is pointing.  It would be on the

10     north side of the UN compound, would be the entrance.

11        A.   This way?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps, Mr. Usher, could we -- we're not yet at the

13     point where marking starts.  Could you assist the witness by using the

14     cursor on this screen.  No, we cannot not follow what you point to the --

15     could you please come here and -- yes, there we are.

16             Now, we have a -- yes, I was looking at the wrong screen.  Could

17     you first move the pointer so that we see the UN.  That's the UN - from

18     what I understand from the evidence until now --

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- the UN compound, the entrance being, more or

21     less, left-hand side of that.

22             Now, if you would just move the cursor, Mr. Usher, a little bit

23     down to the left, down to the left, following the road.  That is the road

24     that leads to Knin, and now up again to the right, so that direction,

25     around Knin castle, and that's where you are approximately at the railway

Page 12080

 1     station.  Are you able to orient yourself?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Relatively so.  But I do remember that I was living

 3     in -- the school, at least, I was referring to was on the back of this

 4     main road.  But how precisely far from either the main road and from the

 5     compound, I wouldn't be able to say from the map.

 6             MR. MISETIC:

 7        Q.   Do you recall any other buildings that were in the immediate

 8     vicinity of where you lived?

 9        A.   No.  The house was a two-storey house; and close by, there were

10     these type of buildings, in fact.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   So, you know, I couldn't be precise.  I can point -- can I use

13     this?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   I could point here, or I could point here.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   Mm-hm.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Can we just draw a big circle, Your Honour, in that

19     general area?

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic, would it not be a good idea to help the

22     witness, perhaps, a bit to tell her where you would cross the railway

23     because that's --

24             MR. MISETIC:  That's fine.

25        Q.   Ms. Mauro, do you see the railway station that was just marked

Page 12081

 1     there, RRSTN?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if you keep going north on that road, you would cross over.

 4     There's a --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  North is -- in order to avoid confusion, is to the

 6     left on this map.

 7             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Whereas usually --

 9             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.

10        Q.   Keep going to the left.  You would cross over a little bridge

11     there, and then could you keep going up that road.  Are you familiar with

12     where the northern barracks is?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Military barracks?  No?  Is the Tvik factory familiar to you?

15        A.   No.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you find your way to the hospital?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps if we take the witness --

19             MR. MISETIC:  Yes.  If we could --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  -- from the railway station where the -- perhaps

21     with the cursor we could -- Mr. Misetic, sorry.  If you now move to the

22     left, following the railway, there approximately you would cross the

23     railway to enter into Knin town, and then I think -- no.  I don't know

24     who is moving it upwards now.

25             If you would have crossed the railway, if you would go to the

Page 12082

 1     hospital, would you go ...

 2             THE WITNESS:  I would go -- my -- the residence where I was

 3     living was on the way to the hospital but in the back side.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Can we move the picture in such a way that we

 5     also see the hospital.

 6             On this map, would you now be able to identify where the hospital

 7     is?

 8             THE WITNESS:  If I'm correct, it should be this way.  I'm sorry

 9     --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  If you would just try to -- if you would point at it

11     with the cursor.

12             THE WITNESS:  Toward this -- this direction.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

14             I leave it in your hands now, Mr. Misetic, not to make it a

15     co-production.

16             MR. MISETIC:

17        Q.   Now, if that is correct, Ms. Mauro, does that help you now orient

18     yourself on where you lived?

19             MR. MISETIC:  Can we pull the screen down a little bit so she can

20     see the hospital.

21        Q.   The hospital is -- do you see the hospital?

22        A.   Yeah.

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   I could have been here or here.  Oh, pardon.

25        Q.   Okay.  Can you -- there we go.

Page 12083

 1             Now, can you tell us the general area of where you believe you

 2     lived?

 3        A.   It's in an attempt.  Don't take it for granted, but it was -- it

 4     could have been somewhere here.

 5        Q.   All right.  Can you just draw a circle around the general area

 6     that you think you lived?

 7             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I -- given the witness's

 8     continuous, you know, expressions, saying that she cannot be certain,

 9     she's not sure, just a guesstimate, I don't know how safe it is to --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, that's for the Chamber finally to determine

11     how safe it is, and of course, we've heard all this, and we helped the

12     witness to orient herself, and we are not unaware that there is still

13     some hesitation.

14             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

16             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honour, that's fine for my purpose.

17        Q.   Actually, let me ask you, are you -- given that general area, are

18     you able to find the school that you're referring to?

19        A.   No.

20             MR. MISETIC:  Your Honours, I ask that the exhibit be marked, and

21     I tender it into evidence.

22             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  No objection.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  No objections.

24             Mr. Registrar.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That is Exhibit number D955, Your Honours.

Page 12084

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  D955, map or aerial view marked by the witness, is

 2     admitted into evidence.

 3             Please proceed.

 4             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Ms. Mauro, on direct examination, you mentioned that your source,

 6     some of your sources for information in 1996 included, first of all,

 7     interpreters.  Were these interpreters that you became reacquainted with

 8     when you went to Belgrade?

 9        A.   Both the ones I became acquainted with and the ones who remained

10     in Knin.

11        Q.   Well, let me clarify that.  You were in Belgrade in 1996.  Is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And once in Belgrade, were you receiving information about the

15     situation in Croatia from interpreters?

16        A.   Yes, and from - as I mentioned earlier - my landlady and her

17     family and the friends of former UN national staff.

18        Q.   Now, can you tell us who your landlady was?  Was she someone who

19     used to live in Sector South?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, if you're asking for names, I wonder whether we

22     do that in public session.

23             MR. MISETIC:  I will get as much information I can, and then ask

24     for it in private session, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Misetic will take care of any possible

Page 12085

 1     concerns you may have.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Misetic.

 3             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   With respect to these interpreters, again, I wasn't clear on your

 5     earlier answer.  Were these interpreters you were speaking with while you

 6     were in Belgrade?  Were they former interpreters in UN Sector South?

 7        A.   Also in UN Sector North, because I worked in the UN Sector North

 8     north, as well, before going in Sector South.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And when you say friends of former UN national staff?

10        A.   Friends and family.

11        Q.   When you say UN national staff, generally, without giving me

12     names, what are you referring to when you say UN national staff?

13        A.   Generally, they were interpreters.

14        Q.   Okay.  So friends and family of the interpreters.

15        A.   Yes, and of my landlady and from friends of friends.  They had

16     relatives in Belgrade, so these relatives in Belgrade would know people

17     who were coming out of the exodus following 5th August.

18        Q.   Okay.

19             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, if we could move into private

20     session now.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 12086

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20             MR. MISETIC:

21        Q.   Ms. --

22             MR. MISETIC:  I'm going ask about one interpreter, Mr. President,

23     but we've spoken about him publicly at length, so I don't think there is

24     any need for private session.  I leave it to you.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

Page 12087

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Ms. Mauro, were you familiar with an interpreter named Predrag

 3     Sare?

 4        A.   I knew him.

 5        Q.   And what did you know about him?

 6        A.   He was a very competent interpreter.

 7        Q.   When was the last time you spoke to him that you recall?

 8        A.   When I left Knin.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now --

10        A.   Or he left Knin.  I don't remember, but ... since Knin, I never

11     spoke to him anymore.

12        Q.   Okay.  With respect to your fellow international colleagues in

13     former Sector South, do you keep in contact with any of them?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you tell us who you still keep in contact with?

16        A.   Several of them.

17        Q.   Would you -- can you tell us who?

18        A.   Sajin Zhang.  Olivier Mouquat.  Igor Krnetic.  Branka.  Nina.

19     Judith Jacob.

20        Q.   Do you keep in touch with Alun Roberts?

21        A.   Alun Roberts.

22        Q.   Concerning Mr. Roberts, have you spoken with him at all about

23     this case?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Roberts about this case?

Page 12088

 1        A.   When I saw him here.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what the purpose of -- or what the circumstances

 3     were that had both you and Mr. Roberts here at the same time?

 4        A.   It was a proofing session.

 5        Q.   Do you recall the date?  Was it this year?

 6        A.   It was the last statement I gave.

 7        Q.   This would be January of 2008?

 8        A.   January or February.

 9        Q.   Yes.  So can you tell us where you encountered Mr. Roberts while

10     you were here?

11        A.   We were sharing the same hotel.

12        Q.   In addition to Mr. Roberts, was there anyone else here in

13     The Hague when the two of you were here?

14        A.   No, that I know of.

15        Q.   Did you discuss with Mr. Roberts while you were here in The Hague

16     the events of 1995?

17        A.   Briefly.  But when you say who else was here, who else among who?

18        Q.   Was there anyone from your time in Croatia in 1995 who was also

19     present in the The Hague in January of 2008?

20        A.   No.  Not that I'm aware of.

21        Q.   Now, do you recall what you briefly discussed with Mr. Roberts

22     about the events in 1995?

23        A.   Well, we recalled a difficult moment that we went through.

24        Q.   And that was the last occasion you spoke with Mr. Roberts?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 12089

 1        Q.   When you met with the Office of the Prosecutor in January, did

 2     you meet with them alone, or was Mr. Roberts present?

 3        A.   Alone.

 4        Q.   Ms. Mauro, if I can show you --

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. Registrar, if I could please have Exhibit D690.

 6        Q.   Now, in 1996 were you working at all with UNHCR?

 7        A.   Well, we were cooperating.

 8        Q.   This is a document from October of 1995 that was -- a statement

 9     by Mrs. Sadako Ogata.  I'm sure you're familiar with her, correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. MISETIC:  And, Mr. Registrar, if we could go to page 4 of

12     this document, please.

13        Q.   The third paragraph there or the paragraph that begins:

14     "Secondly..."

15             Mrs. Ogata stated that repatriation must take place in an

16     organised phased manner.  It goes on to talk about how adequate

17     accommodation and essential services must be available in the places of

18     return.  It says:  "Returning large numbers of refugees to areas which

19     are not yet ready to receive them can have very serious consequences, not

20     only for the refugees themselves but for the stability in the area

21     concerned.  I am thinking particularly of the still-fragile situation in

22     the area of the Federation."

23             Ms. Mauro, in your work with the UNHCR in 1996, were you aware

24     that the issue of returns was actually one that involved multiple

25     countries and repatriation of various refugee groups in order to be

Page 12090

 1     successful?  Were you aware of how that process was unfolding?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   When you say -- you testified on direct about Croatians

 4     obstructing return.  Was part of the issue the fact that these refugee

 5     return issues became interrelated so that return of refugees to Croatia

 6     was related to the return of Croatian refugees to Bosnia and -- et

 7     cetera?

 8        A.   But there were two issues, I think.  One was the return proper,

 9     and the other one was the issuance of Croatian document, for instance,

10     which was very slow.

11        Q.   I think Mr. Kuzmanovic may have asked you this, but let me ask

12     you directly.  Were you aware that the underlying -- many of the

13     underlying documents of the Croatian Serbs had in fact been taken to

14     Belgrade as part of the "exodus" that you -- that is the word you used

15     just a while ago, the exodus to Serbia on the 5th of August?

16        A.   Well, this is one of the interpretation.  The other

17     interpretation was that they were burned as soon as the Croatian

18     authorities had come in, and I do not have an answer to that.

19        Q.   Well, are you aware that in 2003 Croatia and Serbia reached an

20     international agreement whereby Serbia officially returned all of those

21     personal records back to Croatia?  Are you aware of that now?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. MISETIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

25     questions.

Page 12091

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Misetic.

 2             Ms. Mahindaratne.

 3             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. Mahindaratne:

 5        Q.   Ms. Mauro, I have one question for you, and it's in relation to a

 6     question asked by Ms. Higgins.  For the record, it's page 48, line 8, and

 7     just to remind you, Ms. Mauro, I'll read back the questions and answer.

 8             You were asked this question:  "Is it right to say that from the

 9     brief contact that you had with Mr. Cermak in the UN compound that he was

10     cooperating and trying to help out?"

11             And you answered:  "That's what I said.

12             Then you were asked a question again:  "Is it fair to say that

13     given your position in Knin at that time, you weren't privy to the

14     knowledge of what resources he had available to him or what he was

15     authorised to do?  It's not something that you knew about, was it?"

16             And your answer was:  "Well, he seemed to be the point of

17     reference."

18             And then you were asked this question:  "My question is a bit

19     more specific.  In terms of whether you knew the resources he had

20     available to him and whether you knew the authority he had to assist, do

21     you see the difference?"

22             And then you answered:  "The resources, I don't know.  The

23     authority" - this is the answer that I would like you to focus on - the

24     authority, it was stated because he wanted to be informed, and he wanted

25     to, and he was reassuring.  He was saying that the situation was under

Page 12092

 1     control, so and others were, I think also the chief of police referred to

 2     General Cermak, like, I can't really but General Cermak.

 3             That's what you have stated.  That's what has been recorded, and

 4     that answer is not very clear?

 5             Now my question to you is:  What did the chief of police say

 6     about Mr. Cermak which led you to draw certain conclusions about

 7     Mr. Cermak's authority?

 8        A.   Well, he said that -- if I recall correctly, that General Cermak

 9     would have authority to influence the situation when it comes to problems

10     with the looting, burning, criminal acts of all sorts, including

11     killings.

12        Q.   And when you say chief of police, whom are you referring to?

13        A.   Chief of police, I'm referring to Romanic.

14        Q.   Do you recall when he said this to you?

15        A.   In one of our meetings when we were drawing his attention on the

16     situation on the ground.

17        Q.   Are you able to briefly set out the time-frame?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Mauro.

20             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  I have no further questions, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Ms. Mahindaratne.

22             I suggest that we first look at whether there are any questions

23     for the Bench, and if then, yes.

24             MS. HIGGINS:  Of course.  Thank you.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 12093

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Judge Gwaunza has one or more questions for you.

 2                           Questioned by the Court:

 3             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Ms. Mauro, my question relates to a statement

 4     which is contained in your statement of 6 -- 5 and 6 January, 2008; that

 5     is it the supplemental statement, on the second page, page 2,

 6     paragraph 4.

 7             You refer there to an attempt to rescue some people, an attempt

 8     which was then stopped by the Croatian army, and this was -- this is

 9     alerting to people that you stated were stranded at a bridge or near a

10     bridge.

11             My question is, do you know what eventually happened to those

12     people.

13        A.   No.

14             JUDGE GWAUNZA:  Thank you.

15        A.   Thank you to you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. Mauro, I would have a few questions for you as

17     well.  I'll just try to find them.

18             Mr. Kuzmanovic asked questions about the meeting in which

19     Mr. Jukic joined at a certain moment and explained to you -- explained to

20     you about the teams with the doctor and the criminal technician, I think

21     it was.  And now, in that report, we find just after that portion where

22     he invites you to report that Mr. Jukic explained that his team was slow

23     because of false reports, where he said the reports were false because

24     people killed were actually killed by Serbs, because they had refused to

25     leave the area at the -- when the Croatian offensive started.

Page 12094

 1             Do you remember that this was said during this meeting?

 2        A.   I remember that there was something said about this, and it was

 3     also something said about why, for instance, a man and a woman would be

 4     buried together, because they would kill also the -- the woman if they

 5     would find a man.  So there were such statements.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you form any opinion at that time on the

 7     basis of your own observations about the veracity of this statement, that

 8     people were killed by Serbs because they had refused to leave the area

 9     when the Croatian offensive started?

10        A.   No, because most of the people who were left were really elderly,

11     and I think it would have been easy to kill all of them if this was the

12     intention of the Serbs, if they were after killing people because they

13     didn't want to leave the area.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Your answer started with no.  I asked whether you

15     formed an opinion about it --

16        A.   I'm sorry --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  -- so the answer apparently is, yes, you formed an

18     opinion about it, and the opinion was that you considered this to be a

19     reasonable or did not consider this to be a reasonable explanation of the

20     bodies being found being killed.

21        A.   I apologise.  In fact, I did form an opinion, and opinion was

22     that if indeed it was true that people would be killed because they

23     wouldn't leave the area, the killing would have been many more because

24     most of the people who were there were elderly, and they could have

25     killed all of them.  So, no, I don't think that was done, because people

Page 12095

 1     didn't want to leave the area by the Serbs.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Did the information Mr. Jukic provided during this

 3     meeting, did that have any influence on your inclination to report or not

 4     to report dead bodies found to the civil defence?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  And in what way did it influence your inclination?

 7        A.   Biased.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

 9             Now, you also explained to us that -- and you gave this as an

10     addition to your earlier answer, that from a 12th of October, 1995,

11     document, that you gained the impression that civil defence was not clear

12     on their own tasks and -- now, I inform the parties that it's not yet in

13     evidence, but I do understand that this is supposed -- that this is a

14     reference most likely to 65 ter 596, which will be on your list from what

15     I understand, Ms. Mahindaratne.

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And that is a document called "HRAT Summary of

18     Activities from the 6th to the 11th of October" dated the 12th of

19     October.

20             Ms. Mauro, you referred to this 12th of October document and the

21     confusion.  I read that document.  Is that a document which refers to the

22     meeting you had with Mr. Zlatko De Longa?

23        A.   Document of 12 October?

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25        A.   Civil defence officials.

Page 12096

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you told us that this may also have

 2     influenced you not to report but Mr. Zlatko De Longa, who apparently,

 3     according to this 12th of October document, creates quite a bit of

 4     confusion also following this report told that he arrived only two days

 5     prior to this meeting, which raises the following question for me:  How

 6     could this lack of clarity on the civil defence apparently created by

 7     Mr. De Longa have had already its effect far before Mr. De Longa had

 8     arrived in the area?

 9        A.   Well, this is just an additional evidence to corroborate our

10     impression that the civil defence, in fact, either did not have

11     information, either did not want to disclose information; and that

12     impression was borne when I met Mr. Jukic the first time.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

14             You answered a question about the information you -- that you had

15     about the authority of Mr. Cermak and his title, and you were asked

16     whether that information was based on what you had been told by others

17     within the UN.  When you were asked whether that was right, you answered:

18     "My colleagues."

19             Now, was it exclusively on the basis of the information given by

20     your colleagues, or was your impression about the authority - I'm not

21     talking about his title but just about his authority - was that based

22     exclusively on what you had been told by others, your colleagues, or was

23     it also based on your own observations?

24        A.   Both.  But we worked as a team, and we all had the same

25     impression, within the UN.

Page 12097

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I do understand.  But when I say your personal

 2     observation, I mean your personal observation in meetings with

 3     Mr. Cermak.

 4        A.   Again, my meetings were not official with Mr. Cermak, where in

 5     the compound it was not a formal meeting, but my impression was so, that

 6     he was an authority.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And did it also include your observations or

 8     at least what you heard from Mr. Romanic?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

11             Now, there's one question that was put to you that was about --

12     Ms. Higgins asked you about the position of the Croatian government

13     concerning reintegration, and she asked you when she put this to you, she

14     pointed at a document, and she asked you:  "Do you see there an

15     observation that Mr. Cermak stressed that Croatia does not want their

16     town and wishes all these people to live there?"

17             She said:  "Do you see that, and did it come to your attention

18     either at the time or shortly thereafter that that was in fact the

19     position that Mr. Cermak had put forward?"

20             Your answer was:  "Well, yes."

21             Could I verify with you the various elements of the question and

22     then whether the "yes" applies to all the elements.

23             She first asked whether you did see that it was the position,

24     referring to the document, and may I take it that you saw that in the

25     document that was put to you?

Page 12098

 1        A.   Today, certainly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, the next part of the question was:  "Did

 3     it come to your attention, either at the time or shortly thereafter, that

 4     this was in fact the position that Mr. Cermak had put forward?"

 5             Was your answer in the affirmative, also, on this element of the

 6     question?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then that clarifies your answer.

 9             I have no further questions for you.

10             Ms. Higgins.

11             MS. HIGGINS:  Your Honour, I have just a couple of questions

12     arising out of the clarification evidence that was elicited during my

13     learned friend's re-examination.

14                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Higgins:

15        Q.   Ms. Mauro, in relation to the conversation that you said that you

16     had with Mr. Romanic about Mr. Cermak, we know that you met with

17     Mr. Romanic on the 22nd of August.  Now, you can take it from me that in

18     that document, the record of your account, which is Prosecution Exhibit

19     P46, there is no mention or reference to any such conversation there.

20             There's no other HRAT report that I have been provided with that

21     assists me as to when that conversation may have taken place.

22             Can you help me?

23        A.   I should look into the HRAT report, but may also not have been

24     written.

25        Q.   It's not in your statement, either, in fact, in either of your

Page 12099

 1     two statements.  Is it something that you had told the Prosecution about

 2     during your proofing session or not?

 3        A.   I don't recall.

 4        Q.   Can you help me with any place that I might find a record of this

 5     conversation that you say took place concerning Mr. Cermak's influence

 6     concerning looting and burning?

 7        A.   Well, if is written, then you may find in the HRAT report which

 8     refer to meetings with Mr. Romanic.

 9        Q.   There are no such HRAT reports that contain such a conversation,

10     Ms. Mauro.

11        A.   So may not have been written.

12        Q.   Thank you.  During that alleged conversation, did Mr. Romanic

13     tell you about the responsibility of the police to investigate crime and

14     to stop crimes in the area?

15        A.   Unfortunately, Mr. Romanic seemed really genuinely interested in

16     helping, but he didn't, in fact.

17        Q.   Tell you about -- did he tell you about their responsibility, to

18     investigate crimes?

19        A.   I assumed that they have responsibility to investigate crimes as

20     Ministry of Interior representatives.

21        Q.   The question was simple.  Did he tell you during this

22     conversation that you had with him -- you say you had with him, did he

23     tell you then about the responsibilities of the police?  Yes or no?

24        A.   I don't recall.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And finally, just for the sake of clarification as

Page 12100

 1     the word "meetings" has been used on several occasions, and just so that

 2     we understand each other, Ms. Mauro, would it be fair and right to say

 3     that you came across Mr. Cermak several times within the UN compound for

 4     no more than a few minutes at a time with others present?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MS. HIGGINS:  I have no further questions.  Thank you, Your

 8     Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

10             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           Further cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  This is borne out of your question, Your Honour,

14     at page 102, line 10, or actually, line 3.

15        Q.   Ms. Mauro, Judge Orie asked you a question on the issue of the

16     civil defence.  The question was:  "How could this lack of clarity on the

17     civil defence apparently created by Mr. De Longa have already" -- "have

18     had already its effect far before Mr. De Longa had arrived to the area?"

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could pull P46 up, please, second page,

20     specifically paragraph 6, 7, and the first part of paragraph 8.

21             Ms. Mauro, your answer to that question was:  "This is just an

22     additional evidence" - meaning your meeting with Mr. De Longa - "to

23     corroborate our impression that the civil defence in fact either did not

24     have information, either did not want to disclose information, and that

25     impression was borne when I met Mr. Jukic the first time."

Page 12101

 1             Now, the first time you met Mr. Jukic was summarized in this

 2     report, P46; and in paragraphs 6, 7, and 8 of P46, he does provide you

 3     with information, and he doesn't fail to disclose any information to you,

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Not precise.

 6        Q.   He provides you with the teams that the collection of dead animal

 7     -- dead human bodies is being carried out by a specialized team operating

 8     in the Knin area, and he describes what the team is for you.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   He also tells you how many bodies were buried in the Knin area.

11     He also tells you that the records are submitted to the deputy prime

12     minister, who was the only Croatian official authorised to speak to the

13     public on this question, and he also invites UN representatives to direct

14     reports relating to the dead bodies to be detected in Sector South to the

15     civil defence.  So he is providing you with information there, correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And he's not failing to disclose anything to you in those two

18     proves, is he?

19        A.   Well, if you go probably down to the same document or in another

20     document, you will also see that he is asking us to ask to the hospital

21     about autopsies, and then we go to the hospital, and the hospital

22     director doesn't want to talk to us or doesn't know what is, really, we

23     are looking for, so there were contradictory evidences.  Also --

24        Q.   Well, let's go to the -- let's go to the next page.

25        A.   If I can finish as you do.  Thank you.

Page 12102

 1             Since he was talking about all this well-organised teams, which

 2     were cleaning the streets, removing dead animals and human bodies, that

 3     was not happening, in fact.  So we were a bit reluctant to really take it

 4     seriously.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   There is nothing in this document summarizing your meeting with

 6     Mr. Jukic, which you said that your impression was borne of him when you

 7     met him the first time that says anything about the hospital.

 8        A.   Well, if you read the next report, you can see that dead bodies

 9     an animals, carcasses, and streets are not yet cleaning, and this happens

10     for weeks and weeks.

11        Q.   I would ask to you answer my question, please.

12        A.   That's the answer.  Thank you.

13             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. President, I think in fairness to the

14     witness, perhaps paragraph 8 can be read in its entirety.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the point, of course, is that Mr. Kuzmanovic

16     started referring to paragraph 6, 7 and 8, and later on he referred to

17     the two paragraphs.  I take it that you were referring to 6 and 7.  Of

18     course, the witness has answered some questions, many questions on this

19     report.

20             Ms. Mauro, if you would please take your time to re-read 6, 7,

21     and 8 of this report, and then if you are done with most of 7, if you

22     have to move to the next page, please inform us.  And would you then,

23     please, after you've done so, answer the question whether there's

24     anything in this document which summarizes your meeting with Mr. Jukic.

25             THE WITNESS:  Would you move to the next part of paragraph 8.

Page 12103

 1     Thank you.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS:  Well, four dead bodies in Zagrovic were not removed

 4     for many days after these, just one of the examples.  And again, there is

 5     another report - I have not this good memory - to be asked to be pulled

 6     into the screen where I say that I go to see -- we go to see the director

 7     of the hospital in Knin because we were informed that they were

 8     responsible for autopsies, and there is no clear answer to who is

 9     responsible for the autopsies, et cetera.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions in this respect,

11     Mr. Kuzmanovic?

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  One last question, Your Honour.

13        Q.   In paragraph 8, and we can go back to that beginning portion of

14     paragraph 8.  The information that was provided specifically in

15     paragraph 8, you did not do, correct, you would agree with me?

16        A.   We did.  Zagrovic was one of the cases which is just in -- after

17     paragraph 8.  We reported about Zagrovic.

18        Q.   You did not do that for Grubori, though, correct?

19        A.   No, because when I --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I think that question was asked, was answered, and

21     does not arise from the re-examination or the questions of the Bench,

22     Mr. Kuzmanovic.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm done.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25             Ms. Mauro, this concludes your testimony in this court.  I'd like

Page 12104

 1     to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having answered

 2     the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the Bench, and I

 3     wish you a safe trip home again, wherever that may be at this moment.

 4             Mr. Usher, could you please escort Ms. Mauro out of the

 5     courtroom.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity

 7     to be here.  It is more a responsibility.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  The parties called you, Ms. Mauro.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  At least the Prosecution, in this case.

11             THE WITNESS:  Well, I'm just looking in the middle but ...

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  We have got three minutes left.  I know that there's

15     a pending issue of expertise.  However, I'm afraid that I will never be

16     forgiven by interpreters and transcribers if I would give you an

17     opportunity to start that debate at this moment, because it is not

18     difficult to forecast what will happen, but it is that I have to

19     apologise in ten minutes from now at the best for being late.

20             I therefore suggest that any further submissions on that matter

21     be made tomorrow before we start the testimony of the expert witness,

22     Mr. Theunens, but we've got two minutes left to discuss whether this is a

23     good suggestion.

24             Ms. Mahindaratne.

25             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  Mr. Waespi is here, Mr. President, for this

Page 12105

 1     reason.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, that's a good suggestion, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Waespi.

 5             Mr. Kehoe.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  I'm sure that the takee always thinks that's a good

 7     suggestion.  I am a taker in the sense of -- with regard to the motion

 8     for prior drafts of the witness's report, that is certainly something we

 9     would want now, so the witness is due to begin tomorrow, so ...

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I was informed that a response would be filed today.

11     I don't know whether this has been done, Mr. Waespi.

12             MR. WAESPI:  No.  It's being finalised right now, and we will

13     certainly file in next -- next couple of hours.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And would you please take care that -- well,

15     filing outside office hours is always a bit of a problem, but at least

16     that you provide a courtesy copy to the Defence, and if you would forward

17     it in such a way to the Chamber staff that we don't have to arrive

18     tomorrow morning at -- too early to look at that, as well, and have an

19     opportunity to look at it also this evening.

20             MR. WAESPI:  Yes.  I think we always do that courtesy copies to

21     the parties, including Chamber staff.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but of course, time and where to send it

23     exactly so that we really are in a position to also read it this evening.

24     That's a very practical matter, which, I take it, you will take up with

25     the Chamber staff.

Page 12106

 1             Mr. Kehoe.

 2             MR. KEHOE:  Yes, Your Honour.  Obviously, there are some other

 3     issues, which we will defer until tomorrow.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It's 7.00.  We adjourn for the day, and we'll

 5     resume tomorrow, Wednesday, the 19th of November, quarter past 2.00, in

 6     this same Courtroom I.

 7                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of

 9                           November, 2008, at 2.15 p.m.