1 Wednesday, 23 September 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 Good morning to you, Mr. Feldi. Mr. Feldi, I would like to --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound
15 by the solemn declaration you gave yesterday at the beginning of your
17 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Carrier. Mr. Carrier is
18 counsel for the Prosecution.
19 Mr. Carrier, you may proceed.
20 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 WITNESS: FRANJO FELDI [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Carrier:
24 Q. Mr. Feldi, with regard to your report, I take it that you
25 understand the importance of being as transparent as possible, in terms
1 of a number of things, and I'll list them for you.
2 Number one, what your instructions were regarding the report;
3 number two, what information and resources you relied upon; number three,
4 what your methodology was that you used to arrive at your opinion.
5 You understand that; right?
6 A. Yes, I do. Mr. Carrier, as regards the first part of your
7 question, I received instructions to draft my expert report --
8 Q. I'm going to stop you there because --
9 A. With the focus --
10 Q. Sorry, Mr. Feldi, I'm going to stop you there. I'm wanting to
11 confirm that you understood the importance of those things. I didn't ask
12 you what they were.
13 Mr. Feldi, you were a member of the Croatian Main Staff; is that
15 A. That is right.
16 Q. And do you remember these HV officers as members of the
18 A. No. [In English] Excuse me.
19 [Interpretation] Now I'm receiving interpretation.
20 No, Mr. Rajko Rakic was not in the Main Staff when I was there.
21 He was in the command of the Military District of Split.
22 Q. Did you ever know Mr. -- or General Rakic to be a member of the
23 Main Staff ever?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. What about Ivan Pokaz?
1 A. Yes. General Ivan Pokaz was assistant to the head of the
2 intelligence administration at the Main Staff. Later on, he was
3 appointed head of the intelligence administration in the Main Staff of
4 the Croatian Army.
5 Q. What about Dragutin Repinc?
6 A. General Repinc came to the Main Staff in 1993. He joined my MPRI
7 team. I acted as assistant to the head of training and education. He
8 became a member of my team. For a while, he stayed with the Main Staff.
9 And later on, he worked in the various commands of the Military
10 Districts. Then you returned to the Main Staff as an operations officer
11 and then went abroad for further schooling. Upon his return, he rejoined
12 the Main
13 Q. And General Drago Lovric?
14 A. General Drago Lovric arrived in the Main Staff after
15 Operation Storm. Currently, he is in Brussels with our NATO mission
17 MR. CARRIER: Your Honours, for the next portion of the
18 cross-examination, I would ask that we move into private session, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 21866-21914 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
2 MR. CARRIER: Your Honour, I have been informed that I should
3 have ask asked to have at least those --
4 JUDGE ORIE: It will be the two documents you're talking about
5 will be MFI
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 7387 becomes exhibit number
7 P2631, marked for identification; and 65 ter 7405 becomes exhibit number
8 P2632, also marked for identification.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. They'll keep that status
10 for the time being.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
12 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Feldi, I want to return to something you said about the
14 meetings that you were having with General Lovric, among other people.
15 You said that people would drop in. Was that a regular occurrence; and
16 do you recall specifics about who it was that was dropping in on the
17 meetings when you were having these discussions?
18 A. Mr. Carrier, I have to be precise. I did not state that people
19 dropped by during the meetings. Perhaps this was not understood well.
20 While we were working in the archives of the Ministry of Defence, people
21 did come back. However, during the meetings called by General Lovric,
22 which were official, nobody came. At least I'm not aware of it. Perhaps
23 this was misunderstood.
24 Only those who were invited attended the meetings, while we
25 worked in the archives, however, people did drop by, but this is a
1 different thing. These were simply people that we were in touch with.
2 I hope I understood the gist of your question.
3 Q. Were there people invited to your coordination meetings under
4 General Lovric that were not members of the committee formed under
5 General Lovric?
6 A. If General Lovric called the meetings of our team, then no one
7 else attended. If he called meetings with the representatives of
8 General Markac's Defence, then such representatives would attend, as well
9 as Markac and other people they wanted to have from the Ministry of the
10 Interior and his attorneys. I did say that at such meetings
11 Mr. Vlado Rendulic occasionally participated as well.
12 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, could we please have document number
13 65 ter 7411 called up on the screen, please.
14 Q. Mr. Feldi, the document that is going to appear on the screen in
15 front of you is an 8 August 2005
16 defence Roncevic.
17 And, Mr. Feldi, if I can direct your attention to the
18 paragraph marked number I on page 1, under the words "decision as
19 follows," I'm going to read you this portion. I will be asking you some
20 questions in a moment.
21 "A Working Group will be established consisting of active
22 military persons in the Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff of the
23 Republic of Croatia
24 retired Colonel General Mladen Markac with the analysis and explanation
25 of documentation created in the Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff of
1 the Republic of Croatia
2 carrying out of the military and police Operation Storm."
3 MR. CARRIER: And, Mr. Registrar, can you just turn the page in
4 English, and under number II --
5 Q. Do you see there, Mr. Feldi, it indicates that:
6 "Permanent members of the Working Group were appointed by
7 Roncevic including, Lovric, Repinc, and Skuliber?
8 And the second paragraph of that item number II indicates as
10 "As necessary, at the proposal of the leader of the Work Group,
11 minister of defence will by his decision assign also other persons from
12 the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Croatia
13 retired officers expert in particular area to join the Working Group, on
14 the basis of work contract for carrying out tasks specified in point I of
15 this decision?"
16 Mr. Feldi, given that you were retired, were you appointed under
17 a work contract by the Ministry of Defence when you performed your work?
18 A. Yes, I was. But pursuant to another decision, not this one.
19 Q. And, Mr. Feldi, do you have a copy of that decision or a copy of
20 the work contract into which you entered, when you performed your tasks,
21 pursuant to the minister of defence's decision?
22 A. I do, but not with me, however. It is back home.
23 Based on that defence minister's decision which came in the late
24 2005, I was called to the Main Staff, as I have already explained, and
25 began working there.
1 Q. Mr. Feldi, in your report and in your CV there is no indication
2 about those two documents; the decision or the work contract. Would you
3 be amenable to providing those two documents to the Court?
4 A. There's no reason for me not to. Certainly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber appreciates your cooperative attitude,
6 Mr. Feldi, in this respect. What's the best way to then receive the --
7 Mr. Kay.
8 MR. KAY: Perhaps can he can help with the logistics if those
9 supporting me are able to do that. If not, perhaps we can come back to
10 the Court --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, or seek the assistance of the Victims and
12 Witness Section because of, of course, I do not know -- I take it that
13 this will materialise after the witness has concluded his testimony.
14 That's -- and then, of course, there is no problem in your offer,
15 Mr. Kay, whereas, if it would be still today or tomorrow then, of course,
16 the Victims and Witness Section would be the appropriate authority to
17 deal with the matter.
18 MR. KAY: Yes, I'll see if we can deal with it more quickly.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Please proceed.
21 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Feldi, I want to go through this decision of Defence Minister
23 Roncevic in order to determine whether or not you were provided with the
24 same resources, access, et cetera, that was provided for under this
1 And if I could ask to you turn your attention to the first part
2 of number III
3 and the B/C/S. That section indicates:
4 "Working Group from point I of this decision will start working
5 on [sic] 1 September 2005
6 Archives, as needed and requested by defence, and it will be active until
7 the completion of the proceedings against the retired Colonel General
8 Mladen Markac conducted before the ICTY."
9 Mr. Feldi, you've already mentioned that you were provided
10 premises in the archives when you conducted your work under
11 General Lovric. Can you tell us whether or not, given that it says that
12 the team will be active until the completion of the proceedings, whether
13 or not you're still a member of -- in any way or associated with the team
14 set up by General Lovric?
15 A. Mr. Carrier, I don't know what team was formed by General Lovric.
16 I received the defence minister's decision appointing me a team member of
17 the committee charged with producing an analysis of Operation Storm.
18 However, I see this decision for the first time. There is no mention of
19 the production of any sort of analysis on Operation Storm.
20 In item I, the Working Group is being set up in order to assist
21 Defence of the accused General Markac in the analysis and interpretation
22 of documents but not in the production of any materials.
23 In item III
24 Generals, Lovric, Repinc, and Skuliber will work on this until the
25 proceedings conducted before the ICTY against the retired
1 General Mladen Markac are concluded. I don't know of this decision.
2 This is the first time I see it.
3 Q. To clarify, Mr. Feldi, in terms of what I'm talking about in
4 terms of a committee under General Lovric. It's the one that we have
5 been talking about all day today, the one that you said you were a member
6 of under General Lovric. And I'm wondering whether or not you are still
7 in any way associated with that committee.
8 A. No. We completed the book, signed it, and handed it over to the
9 Chief of the Main Staff. At that point, all the obligations we had
10 concerning the analysis of Operation Storm ceased. I was not involved in
11 any subsequent work, meetings, or discussions related to the Defence of
12 General Markac.
13 Q. And can you put a date on that for us? When exactly did your
14 involvement end?
15 A. I think that the book bears the date of July 2007.
16 Q. Mr. Feldi, when did your involvement end? If you can put a date
17 on that.
18 A. I can't. I don't know exactly.
19 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, if we could please turn to page 3 in
20 the English, at the top of the page, and remaining in page 2 in the
21 B/C/S, second paragraph of item number III --
22 Q. Mr. Feldi, which is top of the page in English reads:
23 "The head and deputy head of the Working Group, at the request of
24 defence and pursuant to a special order of the Ministry of Defence, may
25 appear before the ICTY to serve in the role of expert witness."
1 Mr. Feldi, my question to you is: Did you need any individual
2 person or institution's prior approval before you were allowed to testify
3 before the Tribunal in this case as an expert?
4 A. Nobody's approval or order was warranted. I am a retired general
5 of the Croatian Army and a free citizen of the Republic of Croatia
6 General Lovric and General Repinc are active Generals on the Main Staff.
7 They had to provide an approval from the minister of defence. I, on the
8 other hand, did not require anything of the sort.
9 Q. Just to be clear, I didn't ask if it was warranted. I just
10 wanted to be clear that you didn't actually have to get anyone's
11 approval. Is that clear?
12 MR. KAY: Well, if you refer to a document that includes the head
13 and deputy head of a Working Group who are different people as we have
14 seen from the document, it's quite reasonable for the witness to give an
15 explanation as to the difference between their positions and his
17 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that that was the issue raised by
18 Mr. Carrier. I think the witness explained that there was no need to
19 seek the approval in view of his position which was different from the
21 MR. KAY: And he answered that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he has answered that. But even if I do not
23 need anything, I, nevertheless, sometimes -- let's try to clarify this.
24 And the question was not very clear either.
25 Did you discuss with anyone within the circles of the Ministry of
1 Defence, Ministry of the Interior, or whatever ministry, whether it was
2 appropriate for you to serve as an expert witness for the Cermak Defence?
3 Or did you just, without consulting any person related to government
4 circles, did you just accept the invitation by the Cermak Defence?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as was seen yesterday,
6 as early as 2003, I gave a statement to the Prosecution. Likewise, I
7 received a phone call from the Prosecution; they called me home and asked
8 me to give a statement. The call that was placed to me concerning my
9 statement did not go through the government or any other state
10 institution, including the Ministry of Defence. Rather, they phoned me
11 at my home and asked me if I wanted to give a statement in relation to
12 Operation Medak Pocket. And I did.
13 I told the lady minister of defence at the time that I was
14 called. I informed her of it, and she said, Very well, you are a free
15 citizen and you are free to go. They should have approached you through
16 the government office for cooperation, but since they did not, let them
17 know that they should let the office know that you're going.
18 When I was asked by the Defence for General Cermak to get
19 involved in the preparation and drafting of the expert report, there was
20 no need for me to seek and obtain any sort of approval from anyone.
21 I hope my answer has been clear, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And you did not at that time as you did previously
23 communicate with the Ministry of Defence when invited. You just
24 responded to the invitation.
25 Is that correctly understood?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correctly understood, yes.
2 The fact that I'm here today and that I was writing an expert report,
3 this is something that I informed the Chief of the Main Staff of. I did
4 not seek for any official approval, but he is aware of the fact that I
5 wrote the expert report, and he is aware of the fact that I am here.
6 I am a retired general of the HV, and he is, after all, the
7 Chief of the Main Staff of the HV and ought to know what his generals are
9 JUDGE ORIE: You informed him when?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Last spring, when I received the
11 first request for my services. Sometime in February or March earlier
12 this year when Mr. Kay asked me to produce an expert report.
13 I told him that I agreed to producing the report and he said,
14 Very well and you have my support, if you need assistance in anything,
15 let me know.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So there was communication but not with the purpose
17 of seeking any way of permission or approval.
18 Thank you for that answer.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct, Your Honour.
20 MR. CARRIER:
21 Q. Mr. Feldi, if I could direct your attention to item number IV in
22 this decision which talks about the task of the Working Group. And it
23 says, it terms of a task:
24 "To initiate and coordinate all necessary activities for
25 providing explanation and analyses of documentation created in the
1 Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff of the Republic of Croatia
2 forces concerning planning and conducting military and police Operation
3 Oluja; this also implies creation of relevant documents, and performing
4 other tasks according requests of defence."
5 Mr. Feldi, other than the report itself, can you explain whether
6 or not you were ever tasked with creating any documents?
7 A. Mr. Carrier, I stated in my CV that, as of 1991, I had been an
8 operations officer in the Croatian Army. The first task to draft a plan
9 of the defence action for the liberation of the Republic of Croatia
10 received by me in December 1991 from the Chief of the Main Staff Tus. I
11 authored all the subsequent plans --
12 Q. I'm cutting you off because I just want to know if you were
13 tasked under the committee that you were on, under General Lovric, with
14 creating any documents, other than -- I'm not talking about the report,
15 but if you were tasked with creating any documents in relation to that
17 A. Mr. Carrier, it's no. I myself did not produce a new document,
18 as it were.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Feldi. If I could direct your attention now to
20 the next paragraph of item number IV which reads:
21 "Work activities of this Group will be coordinated by the
22 director of Military Security Agency, and every document, in the form of
23 opinion, analysis, elaborate, expertise, and similar, will be previously
24 approved, prior to being submitted to the Defence of General Markac, by
25 the head of the Main Staff ..."
1 Mr. Feldi, my question to you is: During the time you were
2 putting together your report for General Cermak, did you have any
3 specific dealings with the Croatian military security intelligence
4 service relating to your report?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. You've mentioned discussing your -- at least the idea of putting
7 together a report with the Chief of the Main Staff. Did you send a copy
8 of your report to him before you gave it to the Cermak Defence?
9 A. Mr. Carrier, I did not speak with the Chief of the Main Staff
10 about my idea of producing a report. I merely informed him that I was
11 working on one such document. I didn't give him a draft or anything, in
12 terms of a copy of my report. I only verbally informed him of the fact
13 that I was working on my report and that I would appear before the
14 Honourable Chamber to present my report.
15 He received this information in February, earlier this year, and
16 the last time I talked to him about it was on the occasion of the
17 festivities in Knin.
18 And if I may add, the only individual who received a copy of my
19 expert report was Mr. Kay. That includes the first draft that I produced
20 thereof and the final version. I provided him with my first draft on
21 which he -- to which he addressed his comments and which I took into
22 consideration when producing the final version.
23 Q. Mr. Feldi, looking at item number V of this decision, at the
24 bottom it discusses a transfer of documents from the Main Staff to the
25 Central Military Archives during August 2005. Do you have any knowledge
1 about that transfer of documents or what that consisted of?
2 A. I am one of the authors of all these documents that were in
3 possession of the operations administration of the Main Staff. It was
4 located where the war plan is kept, under strict security.
5 In my administration, there was a separate department for the
6 development of all the analyses of the Croatian Army, and that
7 documentation is stored in the administration. Now I see that
8 pursuant -- I see pursuant to this decision's -- decision -- minister's
9 decision that he ordered that all these documents be transferred from the
10 Main Staff from where the war plans were stored to the Central Military
11 Archives of the -- of the Ministry of Defence. You will know that when I
12 left the Main Staff, the documentation was still there.
13 Now, about the -- the information that it was transferred in
14 August 2005 is something that I am seeing here for the first time.
15 Q. Mr. Feldi, just with regard to number 6 of this order which
16 discusses the expenses in regard to the activity for this committee are
17 to be borne by, first off, the officer -- or the office of the minister
18 of defence and thereafter the Main Staff. When you were conducting your
19 analysis under General Lovric, is that how it worked as well, as far as
20 you knew?
21 A. Yes. Every month General Lovric signed a receipt to the effect
22 that I and other members of the team worked on the material needed for
23 the production of the book analysis of Operation Storm and sent it to the
24 personnel Department of the MOD which, in turn -- on his request asked
25 from the accountancy service to pay remuneration for our work.
1 The expenses incurred were roughly 500 euros a month, and the
2 remuneration for the expenses incurred was something that was credited to
3 my account.
4 In December 2006, my contract was no longer valid, and in 2007 I
5 no longer received any sort of remuneration for the simple fact that I
6 did no further work, as the book was completed.
7 MR. CARRIER: Mr. President, if we could have that document
8 admitted in into evidence, please.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I hear of no objections.
10 Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that becomes exhibit number P2633.
12 JUDGE ORIE: P2633 is admitted into evidence.
13 I have to add to this, that the previously admitted -- the MFI
14 documents, P2631 and P2632, should be under seal. They're still MFI'd.
15 Mr. Carrier, we're close to a point where we would have a break.
16 Would this be a suitable moment, Mr. Misetic?
17 MR. CARRIER: If I could ask one more question it would close off
18 this --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
20 MR. CARRIER: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I remember that you earlier said that you asked one
22 question which took approximately 20 minutes, but I'm exaggerating. One
23 question I consider to be finished within two minutes.
24 MR. CARRIER: I think the question will be shorter, at least,
25 than 20 minutes.
1 Q. Mr. Feldi, you didn't mention this in your report or your CV but
2 isn't it the case that, back in 1992, you were appointed to a commission
3 by President Tudjman, and on that commission - which was only five
4 people - you served actually under General Cermak?
5 A. Mr. Carrier, can you please remind me what sort of commission
6 this was? I was on a great many commissions. I'm not sure which one
7 you're referring to, back in 1992.
8 Q. I'm referring to the one that was headed by General Cermak that
9 consisted of five people that you were appointed to?
10 A. That was in 1992 when I was Major-General, unless I'm mistaken.
11 And it was a commission headed by General Cermak. Yes, I remember.
12 MR. CARRIER: Mr. President, this is a good place to stop.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would first likes to Madam Usher to escort
14 the witness.
15 We'll have a break, Mr. Feldi. We'd like to see you back in
16 approximately 20 minutes.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, looking at Rule 90(H), the Chamber
21 wonders what we're dealing with at this moment.
22 Apparently your cross-examination is not focussing on the subject
23 matter of the evidence in-chief. We also did not gain the impression
24 that this witness is giving evidence which is relevant for the
25 Prosecution's case, at least subject matter of the Prosecution case.
1 What then remains is credibility issues.
2 Is our understanding correct, that we are dealing in two full
3 sessions now with credibility issues?
4 MR. CARRIER: We're dealing with credibility issues and, pursuant
5 to the Chamber's decision, about exploring transparency. That is
6 finished now anyway, Mr. President. I intend now to move to the next
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because that could have been done in
9 approximately 25 percent of the time you used for that. Get to the core
10 of the issue more quickly, and do not explore all the details. Of course
11 it's fine for us to know now that finally the expenses that receipts were
12 handed out, et cetera, you are in control of your cross-examination, and
13 it should be done more efficiently.
14 We'll have a break, and we resume at --
15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, could I just raise --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Kay.
17 MR. KAY: -- to assist the Court. I'm told by my team that they
18 may be able to assist General Feldi in the collection of this contract,
19 if their service is needed. If Victims and Witnesses Unit are needed to
20 do it, they can do it. I don't mind subcontracting it. But if anyone
21 wants assistance, we have contacted people in Zagreb who would be able to
22 go to a place for him to collect it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would please briefly discuss it with
24 Mr. Carrier whether he with would have any problem in such an involvement
25 at this moment of the Cermak Defence in obtaining those documents.
1 Mr. Carrier, if you would discuss it. If any problem then
2 remains, then, of course, I take it that you will address the Chamber
3 again on the matter, or that you seek ways of getting the
4 Victims and Witness Section involved. It seems to be a rather -- well,
5 to say kind of a neutral matter, contracts, documents.
6 Mr. Carrier, you're willing to discuss it with Mr. Kay over the
8 MR. CARRIER: Yes, of course.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then we'll hear the results.
10 We will resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier.
15 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Mr. Feldi, you draw a number of conclusions about the military
17 police. That's contained in part 1.5.50 of your report.
18 MR. CARRIER: Page reference is 38 and 39, Your Honour.
19 Q. And, Mr. Feldi, if I can ask you to specifically turn your
20 attention to the paragraphs 1.5.10 through to 13 of your report.
21 MR. CARRIER: Which is on pages 23 to 24 of the B/C/S; that's
22 page 26, 27, of the English.
23 Q. And I want to turn your attention to the specific parts where you
24 discuss the temporary instructions for the work of the units of the
25 military police of the Croatian Army dated 1992.
1 MR. CARRIER: Document reference, Your Honours, is D993.
2 Q. And, Mr. Feldi, before we start, I just want to clarify
3 something. Is it your position that, as a result of passing the
4 temporary instructions, that the military police units, under that
5 instruction, were subordinated solely to the military police in terms of
6 their regular tasks in the field. Is that correct?
7 A. You find it in item 1.5.10, if I understood you well, in which it
8 is stated correctly that MP units are subordinated to the military police
10 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar, could you please call up
11 Exhibit D993 and turn to page 4 in the English and same page, 4, in
13 Q. Mr. Feldi, as this comes up, I want to go through a couple of
14 sections with you and draw your attention to them and then ask you a few
15 questions about them.
16 Looking at the temporary instructions at page 4, paragraph 2, it
17 says that these instructions cover: fundamentals of military police
18 organisation; fundamentals of command and control; and the scope of
19 activities of the military police in peace and war.
20 And directly under that it indicates that:
21 "The instructions are aimed for: members of the military police
22 for consistent handling of tasks within its scope of activity; officers
23 of commands, units, and institutions of the Croatian Army of which the
24 military police are part for consistent command and control and the use
25 of these units."
1 MR. CARRIER: And if we could turn to page 5 in the English and 5
2 in the B/C/S. And if we can focus, please, on item number VI.
3 Q. Mr. Feldi, this is a -- this is a point from the temporary
4 instructions that you didn't specifically -- or explicitly deal with in
5 your report and it reads:
6 "The MP units or their commanders carry out all military police
7 tasks on request by the commander of the Republic of Croatia
8 unit where they are engaged."
9 And then in brackets it lists a number of different pieces,
10 battalion, brigade, et cetera, operations group.
11 Now, Mr. Feldi, what I'm trying to understand is in your report,
12 in your analysis, you didn't make any explicit reference or you just
13 seemed to analyse these particular sections of the temporary instructions
14 which I'm going suggest to you indicate that in fact MP units are to
15 carry out military police tasks on the orders of the HV commander where
16 they are engaged.
17 MR. KAY: Could we have a date as to when the analysis by counsel
18 iis being sought?
19 MR. MISETIC: We have the same objection, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I took it that it would be when the temporary
21 instructions were in force, but perhaps you specify that, Mr. Carrier.
22 MR. CARRIER: Certainly. I was talking about the proposition
23 which I put to Mr. Feldi in the beginning, that he says that the
24 temporary instructions solely subordinated the units to the military
25 police administration, so I'm trying to figure out his analysis with
1 regard to that, because having looked at the report, it -- -- it
3 JUDGE ORIE: Your question, at this moment, is limited to the
4 time when these temporary rules applied.
5 MR. CARRIER: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. CARRIER:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Feldi, given the parts that we just looked at in these
9 temporary rules, can you explain how it is that you conclude that, under
10 the temporary instructions, the military police units are only
11 subordinated to the military police administration?
12 A. Mr. Carrier, in item 1 on the same page it says that within the
13 Ministry of Defence there should be a military police administration,
14 which commands and controls all military police units, irrespective of
15 their location. Pursuant to that, I concluded that it is only the
16 military police administration that has the right to order all military
17 police units, as regulated by the provisional instructions of the
18 6th of January, 1992.
19 In item 6 that you read out, one finds that the military police
20 units and their commanders carry out all military police tasks on request
21 by the commander of the armed forces unit.
22 In this item, no right is given to the commanders of army units
23 to command military police units. It is clearly stated in item 1 that
24 only the military police administration enjoys that right. If they put
25 through a request, then the police administration can issue an order on
1 engagement of the various MP units.
2 In my view, the comment made in item 6 was an unnecessary one,
3 since item 1 is clear in and of itself. It is unambiguous.
4 Q. You indicate that item 1 says that only the military police
5 administration has that right. How do you -- where are you reading in
6 the word "only"? How do you come to that conclusion?
7 A. Because, within the Ministry of Defence, there is no other
8 administration and the Chief of the Main Staff was not assigned the right
9 to command the military police by virtue of these instructions. The
10 military police is subordinated only to the chief of the military police
12 If I may, Mr. Carrier, in my report, I have referred to these
13 instructions as a result of the dissatisfaction of the military police
14 administration with the state of things in MP units --
15 Q. Mr. Feldi, I'm going to cut you off; I have limited time. I'm
16 not asking you about that --
17 MR. KAY: I think that may have been a very relevant piece of
18 evidence to come out.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would like the witness to finish his answer.
20 Could you please -- you were about to explain that this temporary
21 rules were the result of dissatisfaction.
22 Could you please finish that part of your answer?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The temporary instructions, as I
24 have mentioned in my expert report, came about after an amount of work
25 undertaken by the military police administration trying to regain their
1 right to command military police units. I documented that in my report
2 in several items, the first of which is the decision of the president on
3 the structure of the Ministry of Defence, introducing the MP
4 administration. Not to be command and control but to be at the service
5 of all military police units within the Croatian Army.
6 During December 1991, the chief of the military police
7 administration, General Lausic, according to his statement, which he gave
8 here, he visited the operational zone in Osijek. He was dissatisfied
9 with the military police carrying out orders of the military operational
10 zone commander and not his orders, and that is why, upon his return, he
11 proposed these new rules to the minister of defence.
12 In the new rules, under item 1, the minister orders that the MP
13 administration command and control all MP units, irrespective of their
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You explained what the dissatisfaction was
16 which led to the adoption of these rules, but we have dealt with the
17 first article already and what it contains.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
19 MR. CARRIER: Mr. Registrar could we please have Exhibit P1206,
20 please, and turn to page 3 in both the English and the B/C/S.
21 Q. Mr. Feldi, while this document is coming up, if you can look at
22 paragraphs 1.5.14 to 1.5.16 of your report; that's page 27 to 28 in the
23 English and 24, 25, in the B/C/S.
24 Mr. Feldi, in this part of your report you discuss an order that
25 had been issued by General Lausic after a meeting of the Military Defence
1 Council -- or, sorry, Military Council in December 1992 where command and
2 control of military police units of was one of the items on the agenda.
3 Now at paragraph 1.5.16, you indicate that you analysed that at
4 the conclusions of that session of the Military Council of the Ministry
5 of Defence, other than listing General Lausic's order dated
6 17 December 1992
7 what exactly you relied on when you said that you analysed it.
8 Is it just General Lausic's order, or is it something else?
9 A. Mr. Carrier, I personally attended the Military Council meeting.
10 I know that there was some serious discussion about who orders --
11 commands the military police. In the preamble of the order that you
12 refer to, which is P01206 of the 17th of December, 1992, there is an
13 explanation as to why he issued that order. At that meeting of the
14 Military Council, it was requested that there should be a clear system of
15 subordination within the military police, in terms of vertical
16 subordination, as well as horizontal coordination, between the various,
17 same-level units within the Croatian Army.
18 Q. Mr. Feldi, are you finished?
19 A. No. This, in turn, required that the chief of the MP
20 administration follows through the conclusions of the Military Council
21 and puts into practice the temporary instructions assigning him that
22 authority. In keeping with the conclusions of the Military Council --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The chief of the MP administration
25 or the administration itself --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If could you keep an eye on the translation it
2 was the French translation that needed some additional time.
3 Mr. Feldi, I would also -- if we make a pause it's usually to
4 enable interpreters and transcribers to do their job. If you start
5 during such a break to -- completing your answer, of course, if there's
6 any important thing to add, please to do so, but, otherwise, wait until
7 Mr. Carrier has put his next question to you.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
9 MR. CARRIER:
10 Q. Mr. Feldi, given what you just answered, are you saying that this
11 document from General Lausic in December 1992 was implementing the
12 temporary instructions? Is that what you're saying?
13 A. No. I was still discussing the session of the Military Council,
14 which took place in the MOD where I attended. Based on the conclusions
15 of that session of the Military Council, the chief of the military police
16 administration issued his order, which is P01206. You yourself referred
17 to that document when putting the question.
18 Q. Okay. So you said you were in attendance at that
19 Military Council. You're aware their General Lausic also attended that
20 Military Council; correct?
21 A. Correct. I am aware of that. Excuse me. I know that because I
22 was there, and I know that he, as the chief of the MP administration,
23 submitted a part of his report on the work of the military police during
24 that session.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
1 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President, in terms of the transcript I
2 just wanted to be sure that I put this on the record. Page 72, line 13,
3 I believe there's a word missing from the transcript after the word
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Feldi, I'll read to you what we have on the
7 "At that meeting of the Military Council, it was requested that
8 there should be a clear system of subordination within the military
9 police, in terms of vertical subordination, as well as horizontal ..."
10 And did you then add a word after "horizontal"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, Your Honour. Horizontal
12 coordination and cooperation.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As we find it in the text.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Carrier, you may proceed.
17 MR. CARRIER:
18 Q. Mr. Feldi, in your report at paragraph 1.5.16 you indicate that,
19 as a result of this order from General Lausic, that the military police
20 administrations' primary task in relation to the military police was
21 responsibility for the professional military training, combat readiness,
22 and the state of MP units, and, at the same time, Croatian Army
23 commanders were given command and control over MP units in the operative
24 zones. Is that right?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. And are you also aware that that is General Lausic's
2 understanding, in terms of -- not that it changed anything, but that's
3 how the system of military police subordination was supposed to work, at
4 least at that time?
5 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, I have to object to the question as
6 formulated at page 74, lines 20 to 22. I don't find where the witness's
7 reports says Croatian Army commanders were given command and control over
8 MP units.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, you said 1.5.16.
10 MR. CARRIER: And the paragraph below that as well, in
11 combination but specifically 1.1 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Apparently there is an problem with the way in which
13 you summarised it. Could you try to summarise it in such a way or to
14 read the relevant portions so as to avoid any misunderstanding or any
15 confusion. We could have a battle for ten minutes how it could be best
16 summarized. Try to do your best.
17 MR. CARRIER: I'll try, Mr. President.
18 Q. Mr. Feldi, is it your position that, under P1206, which is
19 General Lausic's December 1992 order, that the HV army units are, in
20 fact, the ones that command and control MP units in the operative zones?
21 A. A clarification, please. Before the order, in my statement, I
22 said that towards the end of 1991 and until the provisional instructions
23 were put in place, the military police was commanded by the various HV
24 commanders at the level of operational zones and brigades. By virtue of
25 the temporary instructions, that right was taken away from the commanders
1 of the operational zones and the various HV units.
2 In item 1, the MP administration of the MOD was the sole body
3 that had the right to command and control MP units. At the session of
4 the Military Council, it was concluded that that needs to be changed and
5 that commanders of the HV need to regain the right to command HV units
6 and that the military police administration become -- should become an MP
7 administration solely as an expert body of the MOD to assist in the
8 developing and implementing policies concerning the military police.
9 Therefore, on the 17th of December, General Lausic issued an
10 order to that effect, stating that the commanders of HV units or
11 commanders of the garrisons within which -- in the -- in whose area of
12 responsibility there are military police units should command those
13 military police units. In the carrying out of all military police tasks,
14 Lausic sent this order to all the commanders of the brigade -- military
15 police brigades, and so on and so forth.
16 I don't know whether this sufficiently clarifies the process
17 which resulted in the order following the Military Council session.
18 Q. Yes, that's fine.
19 Mr. Feldi, if we turn to items number --
20 A. Thank you.
21 Q. -- 5 and 6 of the General Lausic order from December 1992. If
22 you look at those, I will read them so there's no confusion. But they
23 indicate that there should be coordinating meetings and reporting back to
24 the HV commanders, but let me read it to you.
25 Number 5:
1 "MP unit commanders are obliged to be present at all coordinating
2 meetings called by the HV unit commander to whom they are subordinated in
3 the implementation of their daily tasks."
4 And item number 6:
5 "MP unit commanders shall copy their daily reports to the HV
6 commanders to whom they are subordinated.
7 "Military police battalion commanders shall copy their monthly
8 activity reports to the relevant HV OZ commanders."
9 Now, Mr. Feldi, as an expert and given the -- the subordination
10 of MP units to HV commanders under this order, or at least spelling it
11 out, in terms of these coordinating meetings described and given how
12 you've made mention of reporting, et cetera, in your report, would you
13 agree that MP unit commanders' presence in these coordinating meetings
14 with their superior HV commanders would facilitate the HV commanders's
15 ability to supervise and issue orders to his subordinated MP units,
16 carrying out daily tasks while, at the same time, facilitate military
17 police reporting to the HV commander to whom they're subordinated?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Misetic.
19 MR. MISETIC: Objection. It is not only compound, it's multiply
20 compound. And, secondly, I object to the formulation to "their superior
21 HV commander." I don't think there is anything that has been
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you replace the word "superior HV commanders" by
24 commanders -- "HV commanders" to which they were subordinated, we follow
25 the text exactly of -- of paragraph 5.
1 Could you please answer the question, whether the -- that this
2 presence would facilitate the ability to supervise and issue orders to
3 subordinated military police units. That's the first part of the
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I answer the first part of
6 the question right now, Your Honour?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Coordination meetings are standard
9 procedure in the work of a command. Coordination meetings constitute
10 preparation for certain tasks and actions. And the commander will invite
11 his subordinated commanders to such coordination meetings, in order to
12 agree on certain matters with him -- with them, coordinate with them, and
13 to prepare orders that he would convey to them.
14 Coordination meetings also attended by commanders of the military
15 police confirm that they were subordinated to the HV commander who
16 organised such meetings. Item 5 is quite clear on that score.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would the presence during such meetings
18 also facilitate the reporting to the HV commanders to which they were
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. One of the
21 reasons why such coordination meetings are held is to report on the tasks
22 carried out previously, as well as the agreement and coordinations on the
23 impending tasks.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
25 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Now, Mr. Registrar, if we could please turn to page 2 in English
2 and page 1 in the B/C/S of this document.
3 Q. And at the top of the document in English, Mr. Feldi,
4 General Lausic says:
5 "To help you fully understand and appreciate the above ..."
6 And just to be clear, this is about the conclusions reached at
7 the Military Council, regarding MP command and control. And it goes on:
8 "... as well as to implement it in practice, please find the
9 following clarification in connection with command and control ..."
10 And just below that, Mr. Feldi, there's a description of the
11 various ways in which the military police administration controls and
12 commands all of the units of the military police, and then it lists a
13 number of items.
14 And my question is: Are any of these items listed in the command
15 and control from the military police administration over units of the
16 military police, are any of those things inconsistent with the
17 simultaneous assignment of large authorities to HV operational zone
18 commanders over the military police?
19 A. Mr. Carrier, I don't understand the question.
20 Q. Well, my question is this: The list of things that the military
21 police administration can command and control, is that in any way
22 inconsistent with HV units having command and control over military
23 police units in the operational zones?
24 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the conclusions --
1 MR. MISETIC: I need to advise the Court that have I switched
2 into the B/C/S translation and "command and control," as the Court is
3 well aware, is a term of art; and I don't believe that term of art is
4 being translated to the witness as that term of art is used in the
5 Croatian armed forces. And so I'm going to have an objection to the
6 "command and control" question.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Feldi, do you speak any English, Or do you
8 understand the English language?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Can you take off your earphones for a second.
11 Mr. Misetic, I'm not following the B/C/S translation as you will
12 understand. What I'd like to do is the following: That you suggest what
13 the translation you consider best expressing "command and control" in
14 B/C/S as a technical or state-of-the-art term, and then I'd like to hear
15 from the B/C/S booth, not knowing how they translated it, whether this
16 would meet any objection from them.
17 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I would be happy to. I will also
18 draw the Court's attention and the attention of the parties to the fact
19 that I believe Mr. Theunens had a long direct examination with Mr. Waespi
20 precisely on this phrase, and where it comes from, et cetera. So we
21 actually have stuff on the record on this point.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I could start rereading it. But I would rather
23 revolve the matter at this moment.
24 MR. MISETIC: Yes. I believe the phrase is "vodjenje i
1 JUDGE ORIE: I will now switch to channel 6 to see whether this
2 meets any concerns from the B/C/S booth.
3 Having received full agreement by the B/C/S booth, Mr. Carrier, I
4 would invite you to, again, put the question to the witness, because it's
5 already a few seconds ago, and then we'll hear the answer from the
7 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Feldi, the question was whether the list of things that you
9 see under the items that the military police administration excerpts
10 command and control over the military police units, whether that in any
11 way is inconsistent with HV units, at the same time, having command and
12 control over military police units in the operational zones?
13 A. Mr. Carrier, it is not inconsistent, because it lists the tasks
14 of the military police which are binding on the -- which make it
15 incumbent upon the military police administration to take care of the
16 condition of the forces, the level of training, the equipment they had at
17 their disposal, and so on. It has nothing to do with the commands over
18 the military police units out in the field. The order, in its own right,
19 clearly states that the HV commanders are in command of HV military units
20 in all the military police-related tasks.
21 This is not something that is stated among the tasks of the MP
22 administration, and this -- these powers were not granted to it at the
23 time meeting of the Military Council.
24 As you see, all of this was sent to the deputy minister of
25 defence Markica Rebic and the operations administration that was headed
1 by myself.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question was whether it was inconsistent.
3 You answered that question and then you continued to tell us to whom it
4 was sent which was not part of the question.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
6 MR. CARRIER: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Now, your position is that this December 1992 order from
8 General Lausic changed the command and control system. You said it was
9 different in -- in 1991 before that time HV units had control. Then it
10 was the military police administration under the temporary instructions.
11 And correct me if I'm wrong but your position is that this December 1992
12 order changes the system of command and control over military police
13 units in the field and grants that power to the HV unit commanders.
14 That's right, correct?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Has the witness not already told us this? Even not
16 invited to do so to give -- that was how it was, then the HV commanders
17 were deprived, and then it was restored. I mean, is it not rather
18 repetitious, Mr. Carrier?
19 MR. CARRIER: I want to make sure that he is saying that it's
20 this order that did that, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if could you simply answer with a yes or no,
22 Mr. Feldi, then we could continue.
23 I heard you say that already a couple of times. Did I understand
24 your testimony well in this respect?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Carrier.
2 MR. CARRIER: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Feldi, given that the words that General Lausic used that
4 this is a clarification in respect of this 1992 December order, and given
5 that -- unless I'm mistaken, the temporary instructions are not even
6 mentioned in this December 1992 order, can you explain how it is, or why
7 it is not stated what General Lausic is doing is changing the system of
8 command and control, explicitly saying that it's going to be different
9 from now on?
10 A. Mr. Carrier, what you referred to has not been stated explicitly.
11 However, this is what the document states at the very end. The
12 above-mentioned order, or the order hereof, shall be effective forthwith.
13 Is that not explicit enough?
14 Q. Well, Mr. Feldi, that line just says that this order comes into
15 effect. I'm trying to ask you to explain to us why, if it changed
16 everything, and it changed all the -- or it changed the command and
17 control issued under the temporary instructions. Why are the temporary
18 instructions not mentioned, and why wouldn't have General Lausic have
19 said that explicitly? Not about when it came into effect.
20 But can you explain that?
21 A. At the council meeting, no conclusion was adopted that the
22 temporary instructions should be made null and void. The temporary
23 instructions not were the subject of discussions at all. What was
24 discussed was the system that existed within the coordination of the
25 military police. It was concluded that the system was not good enough,
1 and it was down to the chief of the military police administration to
2 change the system. And he copied the conclusions from that meeting to
3 all those who were competent to receive it as well as to the military
4 police that needed to implement them. And they were in force until the
5 rules governing the military police were in fact issued. Up until that
6 point, the order issued by the head of the military police administration
7 remained valid and in force.
8 Q. Mr. Feldi, given that you said that the system of command and
9 control over the military police units in the operational zones had
10 changed pursuant to the temporary instructions, now you're saying that
11 when the decision was made at the Military Council to change that system
12 entirely, at least with regard to that item, that the temporary
13 instructions weren't even discussed at all in that meeting?
14 And can you explain why that would be and why there would be no
15 reference in this specific order? That's what we're trying to
16 understand. Because the Prosecution's position is that this order, given
17 that it doesn't reference the temporary instructions, didn't change
18 anything under those instructions.
19 A. Mr. Carrier, the document P01206, according to that document, the
20 chief of the military police administration does not state anywhere that
21 this document was on the agenda of the council meeting. No. What was
22 discussed was the existing command system. The rules or temporary
23 instructions or any other specific document were not discussed at this
24 meeting. Rather, what was discussed was the practice experienced out in
25 the field, in order to rectify the situation, conclusions were issued
1 which the chief of the MP administration included in the order that he
2 addressed to all those whom -- whom it concerned.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Carrier, I'm looking at the clock.
4 First of all, Mr. Feldi, I would like to instruct you, as I did
5 yesterday, that you shouldn't speak with anyone about your testimony,
6 whether already given today or yesterday or still to be given tomorrow.
7 Madam Usher, could you escort Mr. Feldi out of the courtroom.
8 We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00, Mr. Feldi.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I still owe you an
10 answer concerning the document. I should like to know whether you are
11 taking it upon yourself as the Trial Chamber to obtain the analysis of
12 Operation Storm and thus releasing me of the obligation to do that
13 myself, including the documents, the minister's decision to -- assigning
14 me to that job of producing an analysis, and my work contract.
15 Am I still under the obligation to provide that to you?
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you would leave that for a minute until tomorrow
17 morning, as far as The Blue Book is concerned, we will hear further
18 submissions by the parties tomorrow.
19 And as far as your appointment and the contract is concerned, the
20 Chamber was informed by the parties that they will be able to resolve
21 that so that you don't have to bother about that.
22 Is that correct, Mr. Kay?
23 MR. KAY: It will need General Feldi, I'm told, to phone his wife
24 and give her the instruction as to where they can be found. That's what
25 I have been told by those who know him.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Feldi, I hope you are in command and control
2 when you phone your wife. So what is suggested to you that you give a
3 phone call to your wife, that you do not discuss with her your testimony,
4 but nevertheless tell her where these two documents can be found. If you
5 would be willing to do so, that would be highly appreciated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I should like to make
7 a suggestion that would be a better one or an easier one.
8 Could your technical staff get into contact with the Ministry of
9 Defence and ask them to send you a facsimile of all these documents?
10 That would be an end to the story. That would be the personnel
11 administration of the Ministry of Defence. If you will allow me, I'll
12 get in touch with them and ask them to telefax both of the documents and
13 you'll get them in -- as a facsimile.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's use all the possible channels, which means
15 that you are still invited to call your wife, apart from anyone else
16 solely discussing that you would agree with these documents to be
17 provided to whomever fetches them in order to deliver them to the parties
18 and to the Court here. Thank you.
19 Madam Usher, could you escort Mr. Feldi out of the courtroom.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 Mr. Carrier, it may not come as a surprise. Your time estimate.
22 MR. CARRIER: Yes, it was four sessions, was my original time
24 JUDGE ORIE: And you stick to that.
25 MR. CARRIER: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber already expresses its concerns at this
2 moment about the balance between examination in chief and
3 cross-examination. We will further look into this matter.
4 Could the other Defence teams, and could you, Mr. Kay, tell us
5 whether you would need time for re-examination and how much time you
6 would need as matters stand now?
7 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will review matters this afternoon but
8 if I did re-examine, it would be some 15 to 20 minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I hear from the other parties.
10 MR. MISETIC: Your Honour, if we do anything, it will be less
11 than -- less than 15 minutes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So we'll start the next witness later tomorrow.
13 Yes. We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow, Thursday, the
14 24th of September, 9.00 in the morning, Courtroom III.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
17 September, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.