Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23160

 1                           Thursday, 15 October 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 7             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning

 9     everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T, the

10     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12                           WITNESS:  IVO CIPCI [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cipci, would I like to remind you that the

15     solemn declaration that you gave at the beginning of your testimony still

16     binds you.

17             Ms. De Landri, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

18             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you.

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. De Landri: [Continued]

22        Q.   Mr. Cipci, I'd like to direct your attention to the events of

23     August 1995 again.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  And if we could have the witness's statement,

25     D1723, please.

Page 23161

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Cipci, were you in Knin on August 6, 1995, when

 2     General Cermak arrived?

 3        A.   I don't have anything on the screen but the first page of my

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cipci, could you answer the question.  If

 6     Ms. De Landri will take you to a specific portion that will then appear

 7     on your screen, but the first question was whether you were in Knin on

 8     August 6, 1995, when General Cermak arrived.  Were you or were you not?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:

11        Q.   And did you speak with the general at that time?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   What -- to the best you can recall, what did you do on August 6th

14     of 1995?

15        A.   On the 6th of August, the president was also supposed to arrive.

16     Franjo Tudjman was supposed to arrive.  And he was also supposed to go

17     from Knin to Kijevo.  That's why I'd been asked by my minister to put

18     everything in place for the president's security as he was driving from

19     Knin to Kijevo.

20             Since I was in Knin already on the 5th and the Kijevo-Knin road

21     seemed to me very dangerous due to a large number of military trucks

22     carrying ammunition, I telephoned the president's office and asked them

23     to give up on that plan and that the president didn't go to Kijevo

24     because this road seemed too dangerous to me.

25             Despite all that, I took a team of police officers and traffic

Page 23162

 1     policemen on motorbikes and I arrived in Knin on the 6th to meet the

 2     president, and if need be, I was ready to transport him to Kijevo, and

 3     that's why I was in Knin already in the morning of the 6th of August.

 4        Q.   But can you be a little bit more specific about what exactly you

 5     did on that day.

 6        A.   On that day I arrived in the morning, and I was in the place

 7     where the president was supposed to land by his helicopter at the

 8     football pitch in Knin.  That's where I parked all the vehicles that we

 9     brought, all the cars and motorbikes, and I ordered my officers to find

10     themselves a place to sit and wait for the outcome of the developments.

11     And when Mr. Franjo Tudjman arrived and landed, I was with the group of

12     people who met him in front of the helicopter.

13             After the landing I went -- he went to the fortress and I

14     remained in the football pitch with my men, and I waited for the

15     president to return.  And when the president returned, I was told that

16     the president wouldn't go to Kijevo, but, rather, that he would take a

17     helicopter and fly to Drnis.  After that, I gathered my men and we headed

18     for Split.

19             I would like to say something else.  On the 6th in the morning,

20     my minister was also in Knin, Ivan Jarnjak was also there, and I spoke to

21     him with regard to General Cermak as well.  I heard that General Cermak

22     had arrived in Knin and that he had certain duties, that he had been

23     given certain tasks, and then I asked my minister Mr. Jarnjak as to what

24     Mr. Cermak --

25        Q.   Could I interrupt you for one second.  I'm sorry --

Page 23163

 1        A.   Yes, go ahead.

 2        Q.   -- I just would like to direct you now to your statement, to

 3     paragraph 17 of your statement.  Do you have that in front of you now?

 4     Can you see it now?

 5        A.   Yes, I can.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Just directing your attention to the 14th line of the

 7     statement where it's written:  "I asked what his function was," referring

 8     to General Cermak.  Who did you ask what his function was?

 9        A.   I've just told you I asked my minister, Mr. Ivan Jarnjak.  He was

10     there on the 6th as well.  He was in Knin on the 6th in the morning, and

11     he was the one who told me, who answered.  And I also, in my subsequent

12     conversations with the minister, either with the minister he, himself, or

13     one of his assistants or his deputy, I was provided the same information.

14        Q.   But tell us precisely what the information was.

15        A.   The information was that Mr. Cermak had been sent to Knin by

16     Mr. Franjo Tudjman.  Mr. Franjo Tudjman reactivated him from the reserve

17     force and promoted him to an active army general and that he was sent

18     because Mr. Cermak was a high-quality economist before that, with an

19     intention for him to try and put everything in place for the

20     normalisation of the situation in Knin, in the Knin region, and if

21     possible, for the economy to be revived there.  And this is more or less

22     what they told me in my subsequent conversations with ministry officials.

23     Even the assistant minister who arrived in Knin shortly after Storm.

24     Mrs. Katica Osrecki told me that.  I believe she had known Mr. Cermak

25     from before.  I was her escort through Knin.  We came to pay a visit to

Page 23164

 1     Mr. Cermak together, and in a conversation going to his office that's

 2     what she told me.

 3        Q.   Directing your attention again to that conversation that you just

 4     spoke about that you had with Minister Jarnjak.  Who else was present, if

 5     any one, during that conversation?

 6        A.   I believe that my chief of the police sector was also there.  He

 7     was with me, and he was in charge and responsible to organise everything

 8     that was necessary in case President Tudjman wanted to travel from Knin

 9     to Kijevo as had been announced.  And when our minister arrived, there

10     was also Mr. Josko Moric.  I don't know whether he was present during

11     that particular conversation.  Of course the minister greeted all of us

12     from the police because we all knew each other very well, and I'm sure

13     that Mr. Jure Radalj, who was permanently by my side, he was also present

14     when I spoke to Mr. Jarnjak and when I asked him that.

15        Q.   Okay.  I'm also going to direct your attention now to

16     paragraph 18 in your statement, and specifically to line 25 where you've

17     said that:  "Mr. Cermak had no military authority over them," meaning

18     troops, military command in the army situated in the building next to

19     where his office was.

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  And I'd ask if we could have another document,

21     D31.

22        Q.   Mr. Cipci, I'd ask you to look at that document.  It's not

23     necessary for you to read it aloud.  Just take a moment to look at it,

24     and I'm going to ask you some questions about it.

25        A.   Go ahead.  I've read the document.

Page 23165

 1        Q.   Have you seen it before?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   So I think we can agree that it's a letter of appointment by the

 4     president appointing General Cermak the garrison commander of the Knin

 5     Garrison; is that right?  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  As far as I can see.  That's what I can read in the

 7     document.

 8        Q.   And it's dated August 5, 1995; is that right?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, is it really necessary to ask that?

10     I mean, if the witness would say no, it's the 12th," I think this

11     document we've seen this now 10 if not 15 times.  Is it really -- try to

12     get to the core of what you want to ask this witness.  And I could tell

13     you that the task of a garrison commander under the law, the position of

14     a garrison commander, in view of combat operations, military combat

15     operations, the understanding or misunderstanding of some 30, 40, or 50

16     people about whether they knew exactly what it was or not, whether they

17     knew the legislation or not, the documents issued by Mr. Cermak and

18     whether these were orders or were non-orders, we've gone through that

19     some 15 or 20 times.

20             If this witness, you think, could add substantially something to

21     this, if you have any reason to believe that, then ask focused questions

22     on those matters, and let's not ask the witness whether this really is a

23     document dated the 5th of August, because we've gone through that, I

24     think, 20 or 25 times.  And unless you have any reason to believe that

25     this witness has information which makes this document not authentic or

Page 23166

 1     that it would have been issued on another date, of course you're

 2     perfectly free to ask whatever questions.  If, however, there's no reason

 3     whatsoever to believe that, then to ask him whether this is an

 4     appointment letter for Mr. Cermak, whether it is dated the 5th of

 5     October, whether it is signed by Dr. Tudjman, that's all, I would say,

 6     not in dispute, and I'd like you to move forward in such a way that the

 7     Chamber gets information in addition to the huge pile of information we

 8     have already on this matter.

 9             Please proceed.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Mr. Cipci, did you have any conversations with President Tudjman

12     about Mr. Cermak's authority?

13        A.   I had several conversations with President Tudjman.  The first

14     time in 1960 when he became president.  I had several conversations with

15     him, but Mr. Cermak's name never came up in any of those conversations.

16        Q.   No.  My question was:  Did you ever have any conversations with

17     him about Mr. Cermak's authority, and in particular, his appointment

18     pursuant to this document this, letter?

19        A.   No.  I've already answered no.

20        Q.   So what is your basis for your statement in paragraph 18 that

21     Mr. Cermak had no military authority over those troops?

22        A.   I tried to explain that yesterday.  The basis for that is the

23     fact that as I was assuming duties as the chief of the police

24     administration of Split and Dalmatia, I was duty-bound to study all the

25     laws, including military laws in Split, which is a much bigger city with

Page 23167

 1     a lot more combat units, including also the command of the navy.  I had a

 2     garrison commander, Mr. Zoricic.  During the four years of war while I

 3     was the chief of the police administration there -- you asked me what was

 4     my basis for my claim, and I'm trying to answer that.

 5             Throughout the four years of war I never had a single official

 6     meeting with the garrison commander of Split, and at the same time, I had

 7     official meetings with every other commander, including Admiral Letica.

 8        Q.   But you don't have any specific information about Mr. Cermak's

 9     situation.  Is that accurate?  Just focus your answer on the question.

10             MR. KAY:  I'm not sure -- I mean, Mr. Cermak's situation, he was

11     asked the question about what he knew about Mr. Cermak's appointment.  He

12     gave that conversation with Minister Jarnjak.  I hope it's not seen that

13     I'm being obstructive here, but the witness, I could detect, was getting

14     frustrated.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I understood your last answer, Mr. Cipci,

16     to be that your statement in paragraph 18 that Mr. Cermak had no military

17     authority over those troops was based on your understanding of legal

18     provisions in relation to command structures and the position of a

19     garrison commander.

20             That took us a while to get to that, but now, Ms. De Landri, do

21     you -- do you seek to further explore the formal position or the

22     practical position, and if you would please then put the questions in

23     such a way that the witness has no difficulties in -- both in

24     understanding the question and also does not have an impression that it's

25     a matter that we have dealt with already.

Page 23168

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MS. DE LANDRI:  Certainly, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps -- perhaps I could ask one question which I

 4     think you may have on your mind.

 5             You based your answer on your understanding of the legal

 6     provision.  Are you aware of any element in the position of Mr. Cermak

 7     which is not either supported by or consistent with what we find in the

 8     legal instruments about the position of a garrison commander?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if Mr. Cermak received

10     from anybody authorities that were beyond the law or above the law.  I

11     believe that even Mr. Franjo Tudjman would have indicated that in the

12     decision, at least in the footnotes.  He would have added that, and he

13     would have worded it perhaps that Mr. Cermak, in addition to the

14     authorities given to him as the garrison commander, he has some other

15     authorities as well.

16             I really don't know who was it who could have given Mr. Cermak

17     any higher authorities if not the supreme commander of the armed forces

18     who was also the one who actually issued the decision in the first place.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  So your answer, more or less, is no, you're not

20     aware of anything beyond what is in the formal position of a garrison

21     commander.

22             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, for the record, the witness did mention

23     his factual experience --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             MR. KAY:  -- at particularly from the garrison commander

Page 23169

 1     Mr. Zoricic, and was dealing with those issues from his experience, and

 2     his statement also deals with his experience in relation to that matter.

 3     So --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Since -- since the matter is raised by

 5     Ms. De Landri, I would just like to try to get focused answers, and the

 6     witness apparently says that no additional authority had been given to

 7     him on paper.  Therefore, there was no additional authority.  Whether

 8     that's the whole picture or not, that's another matter, but that's the

 9     answer of the witness at this moment.

10             Please proceed, Ms. De Landri.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Cipci, I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 22 of

13     your statement.  Oh.  That's Exhibit P1723.

14             Now, in paragraph 22 you'd stated, and there was some testimony

15     to this effect yesterday, that you were the only official in Knin who

16     could authorise civilians to pass through that district.  Is that

17     accurate?

18        A.   The question is not accurate, so the answer can't be either.  I

19     was not the only official in Knin.  I was the only authorised person to

20     issue passes for people to cross the check-points that were under the

21     control of my police administration, and I'm talking about the area above

22     Vrlika, Sinj, Vrlika, and border crossings, and for the passage through

23     those border crossings I was the one who was authorised to issue passes

24     which allowed people entry into the liberated area.  Thus I was not the

25     only authorised person in Knin.

Page 23170

 1        Q.   But we agree that you had the authority to issue the passes, and

 2     you -- that that authority derived from your position as a civilian

 3     police authority.  Is that accurate?

 4        A.   That authority was based on the order issued by the Minister of

 5     the Interior, Mr. Ivan Jarnjak, as well as based on the fact that I was

 6     the chief of the police administration.  Therefore, at meetings that we

 7     held before Operation Storm, it was expressly said that the chiefs of

 8     police administrations would be issuing passes for people to pass through

 9     their border check-points.  My border check-points were beyond the town

10     of Vrlika.

11             Do you need further clarification?  I can tell you that the --

12     that you could also enter the liberated area of Krajina from Sibenik,

13     Zadar, and other areas, and the respective chiefs of police

14     administrations were in charge of the border crossings in those areas,

15     and I'm talking about Zadar, Sibenik, and so on and so forth.

16        Q.   Well, we've looked at some documents yesterday, and I'm going to

17     direct your attention to them in a moment, in which you wrote some

18     letters to the Ministry of the Interior asking for clarification about

19     some passes.

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  And I believe those are D494 and 495.  If we

21     could have those.  494 first.

22        Q.   In your statement you said:

23             "Mr. Cermak was not authorised to issue passes to civilians."

24             Do you recall that?  And I'd like to direct --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23171

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2        A.   I did say that.

 3        Q.    I'd like to direct your attention now to this exhibit.  It's

 4     D494.  Have you had a moment to look at that document?

 5        A.   This is a document that I signed, and I sent it to my ministry.

 6     Is that the document that I'm looking at?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   It is -- it was written on the 15th of August.  I can see my

 9     signature, and there's also a footnote in my own handwriting.

10        Q.   My question to you, Mr. Cipci, is if Mr. Cermak did not have the

11     authority to issue passes to civilians, why did you not write that at the

12     time when you wrote this letter or memo to the Interior Ministry on

13     August 15th of 1995?

14        A.   Madam, I wrote this -- if you look at the last sentence, you will

15     see that it reads:

16             "Please reply and confirm in writing the validity of the passes."

17             The word "validity" means whether they were valid or not, because

18     they were not in compliance with what had been agreed, and I asked from

19     the ministry to confirm whether the passes were valid on the assumption

20     that something had been changed in the meantime.

21             The reply I received was that Mr. Cermak could no longer issue

22     passes for civilians but only for military personnel and for civilians

23     serving in the Croatian Army.  That was the answer that I received from

24     the ministry, and I believe that Mr. Cermak later on indicated on his

25     passes that his passes were valid only for military personnel and

Page 23172

 1     civilians serving in the Croatian Army.  Therefore, you can see that this

 2     was my written request for an explanation from the ministry as to whether

 3     Cermak's passes were valid or not.  I thought that they were not valid.

 4     And as for Mr. Cermak, when he showed me a pass of that kind in his

 5     office I told him, "Mr. Cermak, all civilians that I find in my territory

 6     carrying your pass I'm going to remove from my area," and that did occur.

 7        Q.   I'm not sure there's an answer to the question.  You stated

 8     unequivocally in your written statement that you submitted to the Court

 9     that there -- there was -- you were -- you were the only individual who

10     had that authority, but that's not expressed in the document that was

11     written at the time back in August of 1995.

12             Is there a reason why it wasn't expressed then but it's expressed

13     some 14 years later?

14        A.   I really don't understand what you're aiming at, what you're

15     asking me.  I have just told you that I was the only person authorised to

16     let people go through my check-points.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri is asking you the following:  In this

18     letter which you have explained to us to be an instrument to verify the

19     accuracy of your own opinion that Mr. Cermak was not entitled to issue

20     passes, why at the time you didn't write to the Ministry, "I sent you

21     this pass.  It's my view that General Cermak steps beyond his authority

22     by issuing those passes instead of seeking confirmation of the validity."

23             That's what you'd like to know.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With all due respect and -- I don't

Page 23173

 1     see a big difference here.  I don't see any major difference.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Do I understand your answer correctly if I think

 3     that you are saying that you raised the issue but not in the sharp way as

 4     Ms. De Landri would have expected you to do in view of your statement

 5     that Mr. Cermak was not authorised issue those passes?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I may have not been

 7     stern enough in the written document, but I was very strict when I

 8     removed from that territory people whom I found there with Mr. Cermak's

 9     passes, and that was before, even before I sent my query to the Ministry

10     of the Interior.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Ms. De Landri.

12             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Cipci, I believe yesterday you testified that your visits to

14     Knin were in a "semi-private capacity"; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   I'm wondering if you can explain to the Trial Chamber how if you

17     were in that location in a semi-private capacity you had the authority to

18     issue the passage of civilians in that area.

19        A.   I apologise, madam.  I obviously can't understand your questions.

20     I am repeating for the fifth time:  I was the authorised person for the

21     area of my responsibility, which was the police administration of Split

22     and Dalmatia.  It was my police administration, the police administration

23     of Split and Dalmatia from which you could enter the liberated area of

24     Knin, and I had several check-points for which I issued passes.  I did

25     not issue passes in Knin.  I'm repeating this for the fifth time.

Page 23174

 1        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to continue and direct your attention to

 2     paragraph 25 of your statement.

 3             MS. DE LANDRI:  Can we have Exhibit D1723.  Thank you.

 4        Q.    I'm sorry, that's paragraph 23.  Do you have that in front of

 5     you?

 6        A.   Yes.  I can see the first part of that.

 7        Q.   You're -- you may recall from memory without having to look at

 8     the document that you stated that you confronted Mr. Cermak about the

 9     passes, and you asked him about his issuance of those passes.

10             Can you tell the Trial Chamber when that conversation occurred?

11        A.   Madam, first of all, you have to bear in mind that that happened

12     over 15 years ago, so I don't know when exactly that conversation took

13     place, but I know that it was --

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cipci, you do not have to tell Ms. De Landri

15     what she has to keep on her mind.  If you do not know any more after 15

16     years, fine, tell us, but please try to answer the questions and focus on

17     what is asked.

18             The question was:  When did the conversation occur?  If you know,

19     tell us.  If you know it not on a precise date but, rather, say, within a

20     range after couple of days, tell us as well.  If you don't know any more,

21     tell us also.  Please proceed with your answer.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That conversation took place

23     certainly a few days after Operation Storm, but I don't know exactly when

24     that was.

25             MS. DE LANDRI:

Page 23175

 1        Q.   Okay.  As best you can recall, can you tell us what was -- who

 2     was present first?

 3        A.   General Cermak and myself.

 4        Q.   And where did the conversation take place?

 5        A.   In his office.

 6        Q.   Okay.  And what did you say to him?

 7        A.   "Good morning, Mr. Cermak.  Here I am.  I came to have a cup of

 8     coffee with you and have a little chat."

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Cipci, you certainly have understood that

10     Ms. De Landri asked you what you said to Mr. Cermak in relation to the

11     passes.  So if you'd please be kind enough to tell us what you told

12     General Cermak in relation to the validity of the passes.

13             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  [Interpretation] In an informal conversation

14     that we had, because my visit was not official, Mr. Cermak took out a

15     pile of passes that he had printed, and then I told him that those passes

16     were not in compliance with what my minister had told me, and that was

17     that the passes could be issued only by the chiefs of police

18     administrations for the passage through their respective check-points,

19     and that for that reason, until I was told differently by my minister, I

20     would not be inclined to let the civilians through to the liberated area

21     if they carried his passes.  They would be allowed to do so only with the

22     passes issued by myself, and that is my answer to the question put to me.

23             MS. DE LANDRI:

24        Q.   And did General Cermak have any comments to you, Mr. Cipci?

25        A.   No.

Page 23176

 1        Q.   And approximately how long did your meeting last?

 2        A.   Not more than half an hour.  That's how long it took me to have a

 3     cup of coffee, smoke my pipe, and had a chat.  I had arrived in Knin for

 4     different reasons, but it seemed a decent thing to do to pay a visit to

 5     Mr. Cermak.  I also always paid a visit to Mr. Pasic, who was the mayor

 6     of Knin of sorts, the commissioner of --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you start telling us all other persons you

 8     paid a visit to, you've answered the question.  That was half an hour,

 9     that meeting.

10             Please proceed.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:

12        Q.   Mr. Cipci, I'd like to direct your to paragraph 21 in your

13     statement.

14             Now, if I understood your answers to the last series of questions

15     correctly, you said the meeting that you had with General Cermak about

16     the passes occurred in his office.  Here in paragraph 21, in the first

17     sentence, you say:  "I was never present at meetings which were held in

18     General Cermak's office."  Which is correct?

19             MR. KAY:  Can we have the full context, please?  The witness

20     stressed informally at the start of his testimony --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I apologise.

22             MR. KAY: -- and also in his statement.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Ms. De Landri, the question as put to the

24     witness, which of the two is correct, is unfair if we do not include the

25     remainder, the other sentences of paragraph 21.

Page 23177

 1             MS. DE LANDRI:  Certainly, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And we -- I'll refrain from further comment.  Please

 3     proceed.

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:

 5        Q.   Would you take a moment to look at paragraph 21, Mr. Cipci.

 6        A.   May I answer?  Both are correct.  I did go to Cermak's office,

 7     but I never attended an official meeting.  In other words, both are

 8     correct.

 9        Q.   The meeting that you referred to involving the passes, that was

10     not an official meeting, in your view?

11        A.   No way.  I just came to say hello, and then in that informal

12     conversation he showed me that pile of passes.  That's what I told you.

13     I did not have any reason to pay Cermak an official visit, because Knin

14     was not within the area of my official responsibility.  My area of

15     responsibility ended with Vrlika.

16        Q.   Just another question.  You had in paragraph -- I believe it's

17     paragraph 23 also of your statement, you said you would expel anyone who

18     came into the jurisdiction with passes issued by General Cermak.  Did

19     that ever, in fact, occur?  Did you expel anyone who came into the

20     jurisdiction with a pass issued by the general?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can you tell us about that?

25        A.   My officers informed me that some foreigners could be found in

Page 23178

 1     the area of my responsibility carrying General Cermak's passes.  They

 2     told me they didn't know what to do.  I instructed them to escort them

 3     through the border pass and escort them from the area of our

 4     responsibility and send them towards Knin, and that's what happened.

 5             MS. DE LANDRI:  Could we have P509 on the screen, please.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Cipci, I'll ask you to take a look at that document

 7     for a moment.

 8        A.   I have.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Have you seen that document before?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   And I think we can agree that that's - excuse me - an order dated

12     August 15th, 1995, signed by Colonel-General Cermak, allowing the

13     movement of civilians to the town of Knin without passes.  Is that

14     accurate?

15        A.   I can read that.

16        Q.   And you -- you say you've not seen that before testifying today

17     in this Chamber?

18        A.   No.

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  I'd ask for P510, please.

20        Q.   I'd ask you to take a look at that document, Mr. Cipci, and read

21     that document, and first ask you if you've seen that document before?

22             MR. KAY:  The document's under seal, Your Honour, I'm reminded.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar has taken care of the matter.

24             Please proceed.

25             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 23179

 1        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to take a look at that document?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Have you seen it before today?

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)  During the four years in

 8     office, I must have seen hundreds of documents every day.  So we're

 9     talking about thousands during the term of office.

10        Q.   I believe that one of the main themes of your written statement

11     to the Court is, first, that General Cermak did not have the authority to

12     issue the passes.  My first question to you is if he did not have the

13     authority to issue the passes, as we've seen in the first document that

14     you've been shown, why was there an order that he issued saying that the

15     passes were no longer necessary?  Can you explain that?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.  One second, please.  Mr. Kehoe.

17             MR. KEHOE:  Just -- could we just go into private session very

18     briefly, Mr. President?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  We turn into private session.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23180











11  Pages 23180-23184 redacted. Private session.















Page 23185

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 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             MS. DE LANDRI:

24        Q.   The second page of the document under paragraph C, I'd ask you to

25     have a look at that.

Page 23186

 1        A.   Could I have it in Croatian, please?

 2        Q.   Yes.  I believe it's -- there should be a paragraph C in

 3     Croatian.  It should be on the right-hand side of your screen.

 4             Have you had a moment to read that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   My question to you is can you explain how General Cermak was able

 7     to arrange for the freedom of movement of the ECMM monitors without your

 8     intervention on August 18th?

 9        A.   In what area was this?

10        Q.   Okay.  Well, I believe it says on the front of the document.  If

11     you'd turn your attention to the first page of the document.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  I got the impression that it was in Dabar, as it

13     reads, with the grid coordinates.  At least that's the event described

14     as --

15             MS. DE LANDRI:

16        Q.   It's in the upper left-hand corner, sir.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, we are talking about what is written

18     there under C.  That's an event where Mr. Cermak was called.  That's what

19     you are referring to?

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  That's right.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, it seems to me that there is an indication in

22     that same paragraph of the place where this took place, would you agree

23     with that, and that apparently is what the witness would like to know in

24     order to answer your question, whether he has an explanation for that.

25             Now you take him back to the first page, but would it not be more

Page 23187

 1     logical to tell him that what happened here happened, at least as far as

 2     I'm aware, I do not know exactly where to locate it, in Dabar?  XJ2554.

 3             MS. DE LANDRI:  No, the question is for him to answer.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  The witness says, Where did this happen.  And

 5     then you say, Look at page 1.  Whereas in the paragraph I see what seems

 6     to be, at least that's how I understand it, to be a geographical

 7     location, that is the combined Croatian MUP military police check-point

 8     in Dabar.  So there exactly they were stopped.  There -- at least that's

 9     how I understand it.  That's where that phone call was made.  And the

10     witness asked where was it.

11             Would you agree with me that because it's important for him,

12     you're asking for an explanation, it's apparently important for the

13     witness to know where it happened.  So should we then not inform the

14     witness that it looks on this document that it happened in Dabar rather

15     than -- I do not know what I could find better on page 1 than I find in

16     this very paragraph which describes where it happened, unless my

17     understanding of the document is incorrect.

18             Okay.  Apparently the stopping the monitors took place in Dabar.

19     If that is relevant for your answer, then please be informed about that,

20     and then could you please explain as Ms. De Landri asked you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  If it took place in

22     Dabar and if the question is how could Mr. Cermak have dealt with the

23     issue without me, then my answer is that Dabar was not in my area of

24     responsibility.  Mr. Cermak had absolutely no reason to contact me, and

25     he did not.  The same applies to those manning the check-point.  They did

Page 23188

 1     not need to get in touch with my chief but, rather, with the chief who

 2     was superior to them.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, next question.  You say Dabar is not within

 4     your area of responsibility.  Is that -- now, could you explain whether

 5     Mr. Cermak could deal with the matter directly to the extent the persons

 6     involved could observe?

 7        A.   Based on this paragraph, it turns out that Mr. Cermak indeed took

 8     part in it and resolved the problem.  That is a fact, but that's also all

 9     I can say.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say, "I have no explanation as to what his

11     authority or role could have been here."

12             Please proceed, Ms. De Landri.

13             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             Could we get P957, please.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Just for my information, Dabar is approximately

16     where, because I wouldn't know.  No one knows.

17             Could you tell us where approximately Dabar is?

18             MS. DE LANDRI:  I'm being told, excuse me --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, yes.  But --

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  Oh, I'm sorry.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  -- I'd like to hear it from the witness.

22             Could you tell us where it is?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly.  I think it's

24     to the west from Krajina.  It wasn't in the area bordering on the

25     Split-Dalmatia county, at least I think; although, I must say I'm not

Page 23189

 1     certain.  These are small border check-points and hamlets of which there

 2     are thousands.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  So not knowing exactly where it is, it may have been

 4     difficult for you to establish that it was not in your area of

 5     responsibility, isn't it, if you can't tell us where it is?  You cannot

 6     for sure tell us that it was outside your area of responsibility.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm positive it was not in my area

 8     of responsibility.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Although you do not know where it is.

10             Please proceed, Ms. De Landri.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Do you have P957 in front of you?  I'd like to direct your

13     attention to paragraph 2.

14             Have you had an opportunity to read paragraph 2?

15        A.   The first part of that paragraph.

16        Q.   Yes.  Yes.  I'm just directing your attention to the first part

17     of it.

18             In particular, I want to ask you about the sentence that reads:

19             "Today we went to General Cermak to complain about our ROM

20     restriction of movement yesterday in Vrlika area.  He apologised to us

21     for this accident that will never happen again.  Military and civilian

22     police should know that all IOs have Fom in the area.  He was for sure

23     that one of the low-ranking officers was acting by self-initiative.  The

24     General reacted immediately by phoning the minister of internal affairs

25     and asking him to contact -- to contact with the civil police in Split to

Page 23190

 1     establish coordination to avoid those accidents in the future.  He told

 2     us that the officer will be punish.  TC:  The angry way of phoning the

 3     minister gave us the idea that he really wants to have good relationship

 4     with the ECMM.  EC."

 5             My question to you, Mr. Cipci, is does that change your view at

 6     all about Mr. Cermak's relationship with the civilian police?

 7        A.   It absolutely does not.  The stress should be placed on the word

 8     "he asked," Minister Jarnjak.  If you can order someone something, you

 9     don't need to ask.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  Mr. President, this might and good time for a

11     break.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  It may be, but before we have the break,

13     Mr. Cipci, I'm just trying to find out exactly the boundaries of your

14     area of responsibility going in south-easterly direction from Vrlika.

15     Then you go in the direction of Sinj; is that correct?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Sinj, Vrlika, Knin, or the

17     other way round.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I am right in understanding that Sinj is

19     south-east of Vrlika.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to the south-east.  Vrlika is

21     somewhat higher up on the map.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, in easterly direction of Vrlika, where

23     did your responsibility end.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the west of Vrlika, towards

25     Kijevo.  Sinj, Vrlika, and then Kijevo.  The boundary was between Vrlika

Page 23191

 1     and Kijevo.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  But I wasn't asking you in a westerly direction, but

 3     from the town of Vrlika to the east, how far did your area of

 4     responsibility extend?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sinj was also within my area of

 6     responsibility.  It is within the boundaries of what today is the

 7     Split-Dalmatia county.  That was the border of my area of responsibility

 8     and the territory of the Split-Dalmatia police administration.  The

 9     borders of the Split-Dalmatia county are also the borders of the

10     Split-Dalmatia police administration.

11             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, by way of assistance to the Chamber,

12     there was a series of maps that we put in, D806, if that would assist.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll have a -- D806, you said.  Just let me

14     have a look.

15             MR. KEHOE:  It was a sequence of maps that we admitted some time

16     ago, and it was a series of three maps.  I think the pertinent map is map

17     2.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'll have a look at it, because I'd like to --

19             MR. KEHOE:  And then map 3 as well.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm just checking the maps, Mr. Cipci.

21             I'm afraid that these maps do not fully help me out.

22             Could I ask you again.  Going from Vrlika, going in

23     south-easterly direction, that is direction of Hrvace and Sinj.  Yes?

24     Are you with me?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.  One goes towards Sinj.

Page 23192

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Would that whole area be within your area of

 2     responsibility, from Vrlika to Sinj?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in easterly direction, would that -- would your

 5     area of responsibility go up to the border to Bosnia.  And when I say

 6     easterly direction, I'm moving to the right, but you would --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the east and south-east of Sinj,

 8     there is the border with Bosnia and the area ends with the Bosnian

 9     border.  All the way to the east from my area of responsibility there is

10     Bosnia again.  So we have the border with Bosnia, the border towards

11     Sibenik, and Vrlika, which at the time was the Zadar-Knin administration

12     and now it is Sibenik-Knin administration.  This is where the borders

13     were:  Bosnia on one side, Sibenik on the other side, the sea on the

14     third side.  That's it.

15             JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation]  Now, between Vrlika and Sinj

16     there seems to be a lake.  I take it that it's an electrical plant which

17     created that lake.  Is that a rather long lake.  Is that --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is an artificial lake

19     which was made because of the hydroelectric plant of Peruca.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, was that lake entirely within your area of

21     responsibility?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is difficult for me to say where

23     the border was exactly once you go beyond Knin -- Sinj.  In any case,

24     Vrlika was, and everything to the west of Vrlika, that was still within.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  The lake, at least, I take it from maps I'm

Page 23193

 1     consulting at this very moment, is somewhere between Vrlika and Sinj.

 2     Not south of Sinj but north-west of Sinj.  Was that artificial lake

 3     entirely in your area of responsibility?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say.  I am not certain.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you can tell us what was within your area

 6     of responsibility and what not, then I at least expect you to be able to

 7     know where your area of responsibility was, isn't it?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, but you need to know

 9     that my area of responsibility in terms of size was the greatest one in

10     Croatia, and it still is.  It is still the largest police administration

11     and the greatest one in terms of number of staff.  I didn't tour each and

12     every village.  I had under me the city of Split with 200.000 inhabitants

13     and 12 other towns.  This is what I visited.  I didn't go into each and

14     every municipality.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  It now appears that you do not know where the

16     borders are of your area of responsibility, and it also appears that you

17     do not know where Dabar is, and nevertheless you come with a strong

18     statement that it was not in your area of responsibility.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I claim that as far as I can recall

20     at this point in time, Dabar was not within my AOR.  I do not recall

21     having Dabar as a crossing.  In -- maybe I'm wrong, but at this point in

22     time I think Dabar was not within my AOR.  That's it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Of course we expect you to tell us what you

24     know for certain.

25             For the parties' information, if I look at Google maps, I see a

Page 23194

 1     Dabar in Croatia, approximately 1 mile east from this lake, between

 2     Vrlika and Sinj.  And if the parties could assist Chamber in establishing

 3     where in August 1995 the exact borders of the area of responsibility of

 4     this witness were that would be appreciated.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  One thing, Mr. President, that may assist, and I'd

 6     have to go back to a different map, often times in this area we have

 7     villages of same name and the key point here, I think, is this grid

 8     reference, this NATO grid reference of --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  If that would help --

10             MR. KEHOE:  I think so.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  -- as I said before, I'm -- and I think I was quite

12     transparent, the maps I'm consulting at this moment because on the maps

13     you've shown, you drew our attention to, I do not know whether we have

14     the exact borders, at least not described in the way as the witness says

15     was his area of responsibility.  That's the reason, but --

16             MR. KEHOE:  Yes.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  But every assistance by the parties to find out

18     whether this Dabar is the Dabar we're talking about and whether this

19     Dabar would be within or outside the zone of responsibility would assist

20     the Chamber in further assessing the reliability and credibility of the

21     answer that was an explanation on how Mr. Cermak could deal with the

22     matter without the intervention of the witness.

23             We will have a break, and we'll continue at five minutes past

24     11.00.

25             One -- Ms. De Landri, your time limit of yesterday, do you still

Page 23195

 1     think you could keep it to two -- two sessions?

 2             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you are not only encouraged but even

 4     instructed to do it, because that's the time the Chamber, having assessed

 5     the efficiency of the cross-examination, allows you to continue.

 6             We will resume at five minutes past 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, please proceed.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Mr. Cipci, you said in your statement, your written statement,

12     that Mr. Cermak did not command the civil police.  Do you recall that?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why it is, in that case,

15     that he would have received reports of ordinary criminal activity during

16     the relevant time period?

17        A.   I don't know who and why sent such reports to Mr. Cermak.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, maybe it would be -- assist you if I showed you some

19     of those reports.

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  Could we show the witness 65 ter 2806.

21        Q.   Just to summarise briefly, I think if you have a moment to look

22     at the document I think we can agree that that's a report from

23     Chief Cetina to General Cermak about several murders?

24             MR. KAY:  Excuse me.  I don't see the word "report."  I see "We

25     hereby advise you that we have completed the necessary checks."

Page 23196

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  A written communication in relation to, would that

 2     do, Mr. Kay?

 3             MR. KAY:  Yes.  I'm concerned about terminology that's used and I

 4     hope the Bench can sometimes appreciate --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's why I suggested --

 6             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  -- a more neutral way, and --

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection to that terminology, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  No objection, so that's then accepted.  Please

10     proceed.

11             MS. DE LANDRI:

12        Q.   I just ask the witness if he can explain why, in view of his

13     statement in his report, General Cermak might have received this advice

14     from Chief Cetina.

15        A.   Mr. Cetina, the chief of the Zadar Police Administration, as I

16     can see sent this document to the Knin Garrison command for

17     General Cermak's attention, but this means that the official report had

18     been sent to someone else, probably to his superior, that is to say the

19     ministry in Zagreb, and only for attention to General Cermak.  It was

20     General Cermak's duty to establish quality co-operation with both the

21     civilian police and the governmental commissioner so as to be able to do

22     his work.  Therefore, Cetina did not send the report to Cermak.  He

23     simply informed him.  He brought to his attention the fact that there was

24     a report he had submitted to his superior.  I believe this falls within

25     the framework of quality co-operation.

Page 23197

 1             MS. DE LANDRI:  Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document in

 2     evidence.

 3             MR. KAY:  No objection.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit P2649.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  P2649 is admitted into evidence.

 7             MS. DE LANDRI:  Could we have D487 on the screen.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, I'm informed that this is a document

 9     which should not be shown to the public.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you please be very precise in that.

12             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Your Honour.  My apologies.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you also, when you put questions to the

14     witness, consider whether we have to go into private session for those

15     questions or whether we can deal with the matter in public.

16             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps in view of what we did earlier, it would be

18     wiser to go into private session.

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 23198











11  Pages 23198-23201 redacted. Private session.















Page 23202

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

11             Please proceed, Ms. De Landri.

12             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes.  I just wanted to direct the witness's

13     attention to 65 ter 3289.

14        Q.   Do you have that document in front of you, Mr. Cipci?

15        A.   I do.

16        Q.   And can you see that that's dated October 11th, 1995, and in the

17     B/C/S version, on the lower right-hand side, is that Chief Cetina's

18     signature?

19        A.   I don't know, but the name that is typed does say "Ivica Cetina,"

20     although I don't know whether this is his signature.

21        Q.   My question is again, this document appears to report ordinary

22     criminal activity, and it's from Mr. Cetina to General Cermak.  Do you

23     know why Chief Cetina would be making this report to General Cermak in

24     October of 1995?

25        A.   I suppose for the same reasons I specified before.  As of day

Page 23203

 1     one, General Cermak was requested information by various international

 2     monitors, and they also submitted their complaints to him.

 3             It is quite certain that General Cermak wanted to be informed

 4     about the incidents taking place in the area so as to be able to provide

 5     quality and relevant information to the international monitors and

 6     international organisation if they asked for any information.

 7             In the document we saw before, one could notice that he had no

 8     information about the murder and the rape, and hence he sought that

 9     information from Mr. Romanic.  It probably became a practice that

10     co-operation be established between Cermak and the civilian police in a

11     way that they would report to him such events so that he would be

12     informed should anyone from the international institutions require

13     information on those.

14             I don't know what the exact case was, and I don't know why Cetina

15     sent it.  I can only see it before me.  And based on my previous

16     experience working for the police, that is the context in which I see

17     this document.

18             MS. DE LANDRI:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document

19     in evidence.

20             MR. KAY:  No objection.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit number P2650.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P2650 is admitted into evidence.  You may proceed.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   Mr. Cipci, are you aware that there is evidence in this case that

Page 23204

 1     Mr. Cermak had daily meetings with representatives of the civilian and

 2     military police in Knin?

 3        A.   I know that he did have meetings.  I heard that during my stays

 4     in Knin.  I heard it from Mr. Pasic, whom I knew.  I heard that he held

 5     regular meetings with Mr. Cermak, that the chief of police was also

 6     present, as well as the representatives of some other institutions such

 7     as the Red Cross and others.  All those who were duty-bound to deal with

 8     the situation in Knin were supposed to have regular briefings in order to

 9     coordinate their activities.  Mr. Pasic had whole quality co-operation

10     with the civilian police and others, and the same applied to Mr. Cermak.

11     He had to co-operate well with the representative of the government of

12     the Republic of Croatia as well as the civilian police.  Those were the

13     factors that were to be on the same page and -- and they were supposed to

14     deal with the situation in the liberated area.  It is not surprising that

15     they met every day, because there were daily problems starting with

16     water, electricity, cleanliness, food supply, and each of them had an

17     area that they had to focus on and deal with.  That mutual assistance

18     between the representative of the government, Mr. Cermak, the civilian

19     protection, the Red Cross, the police, had to function if they wanted to

20     do their job well and if they wanted to accomplish the mission for which

21     they had been sent to the liberated area.

22             Mr. President, can I say another sentence, please?  It would be

23     much more logical to me --

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I will allow you to add one sentence, but from

25     the whole of your answer I understood that your answer to the previous

Page 23205

 1     question was that you were aware that these meetings took place.

 2             May I invite you to see what Ms. De Landri specifically wants to

 3     know, and here she only asked for your awareness of this evidence.  If

 4     you'd like to add one sentence, I'll allow you to do that but keep it to

 5     one sentence, please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did know, and it would have

 7     been more logical if the meetings had been held in Mr. Pasic's office,

 8     because he was the representative of the Croatian government.  But Pasic

 9     told me that his office was not conducive to such meetings.  He did not

10     have conditions conducive to holding such meetings in his office.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Before we further discuss the logic of where

12     the meetings took place, let's try to find out what Ms. De Landri would

13     like to elicit from you.

14             Ms. De Landri.

15             MS. DE LANDRI:

16        Q.   Are you aware, Mr. Cipci, that in 1998, Mr. Cermak himself said

17     that he had meetings and talks with Minister Jarnjak about matters having

18     to do with the civilian police?

19        A.   I find it only normal that Mr. Cermak had contacts with

20     Minister Jarnjak.  It was also logical to me when Mr. Cermak started

21     receiving complaints from the monitors on day two or three after

22     Operation Storm, that he sent a letter to the prime minister, to the

23     president of the state who appointed him, the minister of defence, and

24     the minister of the interior, to inform them about the events that he had

25     learnt about from the international monitors.

Page 23206

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we start explaining, the first question was

 2     whether you were aware that this is what Mr. Cermak said.  From your

 3     answer I still do not know, but it seems that you are not aware that he

 4     said it --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, no, but if he said

 6     so, I find it absolutely normal.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Right.  Please proceed.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  Could we have Exhibit P2525, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Cipci, are you aware that Mr. Cermak was interviewed by

10     representatives of the Office of the Prosecution back in 1998?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Well, in the document that I'm going to ask you about in the --

13     it's going to appear in front of you on the screen, is a partial

14     transcript of that interview, and at that time he was asked some

15     questions about his interactions with the police and about his authority

16     over the police force, and in particular I want to direct your attention

17     to lines 26 and 28.

18             MR. KEHOE:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I'm not sure.  My

19     transcript says 2001.

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  Oh, I'm sorry, you're right, 2001.  I'm

21     corrected.

22             MR. KEHOE:  Oh.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  That's on the record.  Please proceed.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:

25        Q.   At that time, he, Mr. Cermak, said, "And when I spoke with

Page 23207

 1     Mr. Saranac [phoen] I always asked to strengthen the police force, and I

 2     always found understanding both with Mr. Saranac [phoen] and the

 3     president."

 4        A.   Can I be provided with a Croatian translation, please, if there

 5     is one?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, I think you asked for P2525 and

 7     referred to line 26, and I take it that we are now on the first page.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's --

10             MR. KAY:  We don't appear to have a context like that on the

11     screen here, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  This seems to be very much the first page, and is

13     that what you really wanted to refer to?  If it is line 26, if you could

14     please read what you wanted to.

15             I think the document is well over a hundred pages, so we have

16     well over a hundred lines 26, and I wonder whether this is the line 26 on

17     the first page.

18             MS. DE LANDRI:  Your Honour, there is another exhibit that we can

19     turn to which -- where I'm clear that we have a translation.  It's P2526.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Which also consists of several pages, so if you

21     could ...

22             MS. DE LANDRI:

23        Q.   Well, Mr. Cipci, let me ask the question without reference to the

24     document specifically.  I don't think we need a reference to the document

25     at this point.  There is no disagreement about -- amongst the parties

Page 23208

 1     what the document reflects, and the document's in evidence.

 2             It's -- it's clear that Mr. Cermak had conversations with

 3     Minister Jarnjak about his interaction and his control over the civilian

 4     police, and in particular, P2526, page 21, I believe, is the relevant

 5     B/C/S translation.  I'm sorry.  But my question to you is:  In that

 6     document Mr. Cermak says, when he's asked the question about his

 7     relationship with Minister Jarnjak and asked if he had an official

 8     relationship with him, he said:

 9             "Yes, I did, actually.  I had meetings and talks with Minister

10     Jarnjak.  We had talks.  We had telephone conversations about matters

11     having to do with the civilian police."

12             And my question to you is does that reinform your view that's

13     expressed in your statement that was filed with the Court on September --

14     in September 2009 of this year?

15             MR. KAY:  Again, I think it's much more helpful if the witness is

16     being asked what his view is on a single sentence in a transcript that

17     the later explanation given by Mr. Cermak should be considered, otherwise

18     it's very misleading, and to be frank, Your Honour, it's utterly

19     worthless, in my submission, as a piece of evidence to approach it that

20     way.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, on this page you have read one

22     answer, and if I only look at the following answer, you'll see that this

23     one answer gives perhaps part of the picture.

24             Now, I think that it would better assist the Chamber if you would

25     give more of that picture.  I'm not even insisting on completeness.  The

Page 23209

 1     witness doesn't have to read the whole of the transcript, but, for

 2     example, last couple of lines, 32 and the following.  And I have not

 3     looked at the next page, but it could well be.

 4             So could you please give the witness a bit more -- or at least a

 5     bit more complete information about what the gist of the statement in

 6     this respect is?

 7             MS. DE LANDRI:  Certainly, Your Honour.  It's lines 32 to 35.

 8        Q.   Can you see that, Mr. Cipci?

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but that's in English.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes.  May I have a moment?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

12             MS. DE LANDRI:  I'll just take a moment to ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  It looks as if we do not have the Croatian version

14     of what we see in English at this moment on our screen.

15             MS. DE LANDRI:  Well, Your Honour, I don't -- I would make the

16     following suggestion:  I don't think that the document is key for the

17     witness's comprehension.  It's the --

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No.  I tend to agree with you, Ms. De Landri.

19     Nevertheless, if we start summarising it, I know exactly what's going to

20     happen, that you summarise it in a way which finds objections, and then

21     we spend five minutes on what's the proper way of summarising what

22     Mr. Cermak said during the interview and -- so let's try to see to what

23     extent we can use the document if you want this witness to think again

24     about his statement in light of what Mr. Cermak apparently has said.

25             What I notice at this very moment, that on the left of my screen

Page 23210

 1     I see text which does not correspond with what I see on the right of my

 2     screen, if only because on the left of my screen KD is not speaking,

 3     whereas on the right side of the screen he is.  If only because further

 4     up apparently names are spelled which I do not see in the original.  So

 5     therefore, try to have the English and the Croatian both on the screen so

 6     that we and the witness can follow the statement you'd like to put to

 7     him.

 8             MR. KAY:  And in fullness, page 22 of the English certainly has

 9     relevant information, Your Honour --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11             MR. KAY:  -- as the witness is being asked to comment on

12     something someone else said.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, I'm a bit uncertain, Ms. De Landri,

14     whether you still would like to use this interview or not.  If so, please

15     do it in a transparent and precise way, and if not, be aware that

16     summarising statements are for 95 per cent a guarantee for objections.

17             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Your Honour.  I will do the following:  I'll

18     read with completeness the answer, and I will --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And if you then invite Mr. Kay to say whether

20     he would like another answer closely related to it to be read, and then,

21     of course, you can consider to follow that suggestion if it makes sense.

22     Please proceed.

23             MS. DE LANDRI:  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And you are reading at this moment from what page?

25             MS. DE LANDRI:  Page 21.

Page 23211

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  21, yes.

 2             MS. DE LANDRI:  And I'm beginning with line 32, and this is the

 3     statement of Mr. Cermak.

 4              "No.  The civilian police didn't have any connection with the

 5     military hierarchy.  My contacts with Mr. Jarnjak were to do with the

 6     civilian police and the actions they should take in the field vis-a-vis

 7     all the incidents of arson and looting, and so on.  The idea was to step

 8     up the actions of the police in Knin and further afield in this regard.

 9     In Knin alone, there were 150 civilian policemen who were protecting the

10     civilian buildings.  We had good co-operation with the... police."

11             And the following question is:

12             "So if I understood you correctly, you spoke directly to the

13     Minister of Internal Affairs, Mr. Jarnjak?"

14             And Mr. Cermak answers:

15             "Yes, directly.  I know him and we're friends."

16        Q.   So my question to you is, Mr. Cipci, does -- now knowing that,

17     does that inform or re-educate you in relation to the statements you made

18     which was filed with this court in September of 2009?

19        A.   This is fresh information for me.  I did not hear this before.

20     However, what I learned from this transcript reinforces my statement with

21     regard to the authorities of General Cermak -- about the civilian police.

22     If Mr. Cermak had had authority to issue orders to the civilian police,

23     at that moment he would not have had conversations with his friends

24     minister -- friend, Minister Jarnjak, and he would not have said that

25     they had good co-operation, because in a relationship of subordination

Page 23212

 1     people don't have conversations but issue orders.  In that case, orders

 2     would have been given to Mr. Matic, Mr. Cetina, or me.  He would not have

 3     asked Mr. Jarnjak to help him with having the police do what the police

 4     were supposed to do, because only Mr. Jarnjak could issue orders to me,

 5     Cetina, and Matic and other chiefs, not Mr. Cermak.  That's why

 6     Mr. Cermak says, "I had excellent co-operation with the civilian police,

 7     and I spoke to my friend Minister Jarnjak, because I wanted to see some

 8     things resolved, things that fell within the purview of the civilian

 9     police.  That's why I talked to my friend, Mr. Jarnjak."

10        Q.   Mr. Cipci, you in your statement, you said that you stayed with

11     your men in Knin for months.  Approximately how long did you stay in Knin

12     after you arrived on August 5th of 1995?

13        A.   I stayed in Knin an hour, a bit longer.  And since some

14     commanders of the Croatian Army had asked me to bring any sort of police

15     to Knin, I returned to my area in order to establish communication with

16     my minister, because I could not do it from Knin.  There were no

17     communication lines up from there.  That's why I stayed only very

18     briefly.  On the following morning I arrived very early because President

19     Tudjman was supposed to arrive, and I stayed until his departure from

20     Knin and then I returned to Split, and then for the first several days I

21     dropped by more often for certain reasons as time progressed.  I didn't

22     go every day, but I didn't stay in Knin for a month.  I was in Split, in

23     my police administration.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  Could we have D1723, please.

25        Q.   And in particular, I'd like to direct your attention, Mr. Cipci,

Page 23213

 1     to paragraph 12 of your statement.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You say here:  "I stayed with my personnel in Knin for months."

 4     And then you continue on to list a number of activities, accomplishments

 5     of yours in Knin.  Is that first sentence inaccurate?

 6        A.   It is accurate to the extent that I would spend a few hours on

 7     any day, sometimes a whole day.  I never spent the night there.  For

 8     example, I would go to Srb, Lapac, Donje Srb.  It would take me a whole

 9     day to carry out those visits and then I would return home in the

10     evening.  Where it says here that I stayed with personnel for months,

11     it's just the turn of the phrase.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

13             MS. KAY:  Mr. President, I'm getting reports back that we're

14     still in private session at this juncture.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you may be right.  Well, on my screen nothing

16     of the kind appears, but, Mr. Registrar, am I wrong?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, I confirm that we're in open

18     session.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, and that's what appears on our screens.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. DE LANDRI:  Your Honour, may I have a moment, please?

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  Your Honour, I don't have any further questions

25     for this witness.

Page 23214

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Kehoe, may I invite you that before

 2     you raise the matter you just raised that you first see confirmation on

 3     your system which, when I consulted, that is pushing the video button,

 4     that I do not any -- see any indication that we would have been in

 5     private session.

 6             MR. KEHOE:  My apologies, Judge.  I thought we were in open

 7     session either, and then I was getting some messages back, people saying

 8     why are you continuously in closed session, so --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you first verify that on your own system.

10             MR. KEHOE:  I did see it.  I looked at -- upon my initial -- my

11     initial response back to them was we are in open session because my

12     equipment shows we're in open session, and they sent back saying, No,

13     you're in closed session, which is -- I didn't know if my equipment was

14     faulty or I was mistaken or not doing it properly.  That's why I raised

15     it.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, of course, I'm saying this because there

17     have been quite many interruptions in the cross-examination by

18     Ms. De Landri, and this was one which, preferably, should have been

19     avoided.

20             Mr. Kay, any need to re-examine Mr. Cipci?

21             Yes?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.  Could

23     I be excused for a moment to go to the toilet?  I am getting on, you

24     know, so I will be prepared to continue when I come back.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Yes.

Page 23215

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2             MR. WAESPI:  Mr. President --

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Which allows me, perhaps, to read a decision.

 4             Yes, Mr. Waespi.

 5             MR. WAESPI:  Yes, just one point on Dabar.  We checked the grid

 6     reference, and it appears that it's indeed the Dabar you found on the

 7     lake of Vrlika.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, because there is another one also near Otocac

 9     from -- and let me be very transparent in this respect.  I just Google

10     maps Dabar and then see what comes up, and I find two Dabars, the other

11     one perhaps not even in Sector South.

12             MR. WAESPI:  That's correct, Mr. President.  And if you go back

13     to P511, the ECMM report, it talks about M2 patrolling in the

14     south-eastern corner of UN Sector South which is consistent.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I hope, as a matter of fact, that the parties

16     could agree on that, and then the next question is where are exactly the

17     boundaries of the area of responsibility of this witness.

18             I meanwhile would like to use my time, and Mr. Cipci will forgive

19     me, to read the reasons, the Chamber's reasons for its decision of the

20     31st of August, 2009, denying the Prosecution's objection to documents to

21     be used with expert witness Anthony R. Jones.

22             On the 27th of August, 2009, the Prosecution filed its objection

23     to documents to be used with expert witness Jones.  It submitted that out

24     of 37 documents which the Gotovina Defence indicated it may use with the

25     witness, 14 were not referred to in his expert report.

Page 23216

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Secondly, the Prosecution requested the Chamber to

 3     preclude the Gotovina Defence from presenting 7 of the 14 documents to

 4     the witness during his testimony if those documents had not been provided

 5     to him at the time he drafted his report.  The Prosecution added that

 6     these seven documents were key exhibits pertaining to central issues in

 7     the case.

 8             Finally, the Prosecution requested the Chamber to preclude the

 9     Gotovina Defence from presenting two of the 14 documents to the witness

10     because they concerned the manner in which Serb civilians left Krajina

11     which, according to the Prosecution, is an issue that is outside of the

12     scope of the witness's expert report and unrelated to his expertise.

13             The Prosecution argued that allowing the Gotovina Defence to use

14     the nine documents it objected to, would be tantamount to eliciting an

15     oral addendum to the expert report without adequate notice to the

16     Prosecution.

17             In its response of the 28th of August, 2009, the Gotovina Defence

18     submitted it was not required to provide notice whether the 14 documents

19     were provided to the witness prior to the drafting of his report.  It

20     argued that the general disclosure obligations of the Defence were

21     governed by Rule 67(A) and that it had satisfied its disclosure

22     obligations under Rule 94 bis.

23             In relation to the seven documents objected to, the Gotovina

24     Defence submitted the Prosecution had been allowed to use documents which

25     were not referred to in the expert report of witness Konings during his

Page 23217

 1     testimony in the Prosecution's case.  It added that the Prosecution could

 2     remedy its concerns by cross-examining the witness.  As the two documents

 3     objected to, the Gotovina Defence argued that it had given notice of the

 4     evidence it intended to present through proper disclosure and that the

 5     documents are within expert witness Jones's knowledge and are relevant

 6     and probative to his expert report.  Lastly, the Gotovina Defence argued

 7     that the Prosecution's objection was premature as the proper time to

 8     object would be during the witness's testimony or when the witness's

 9     written evidence was being tendered.

10             On the 31st of August, 2009, in an oral decision with reasons to

11     follow, the Chamber denied the Prosecution's objection.  This can be

12     found at transcript pages 20890 through 20891.

13             In its written decision on disclosure of expert materials of the

14     27th of August, 2009, the Chamber held that there's no obligation for the

15     Defence to disclose to the Prosecution lists of all the information

16     provided to their proposed expert witnesses.  The Chamber's oral decision

17     to deny the Prosecution's request for a notification of which, if any, of

18     the 14 documents were provided to the witness prior to the drafting of

19     his expert report, was in line with this written decision and rendered

20     for the same reasons.

21             With regard to the request to preclude the Gotovina Defence from

22     using the nine documents objected to with the witness, the Chamber

23     recalled that it had -- it has previously held in paragraph 7 of its

24     decision on part of the Gotovina Defence's Rule 73 motion in limine of

25     the 21st of May, 2008, that if proper notice has been given, a party may

Page 23218

 1     examine an expert witness with respect to matters not included in his

 2     expert report, so long as they are relevant, probative, and within the

 3     witness's expertise.

 4             In relation to the seven documents, the Prosecution did not

 5     dispute that these documents were relevant, probative, and within the

 6     witness's expertise.  The Chamber saw no reason to preclude the Defence

 7     from using these documents with the witness and found that the

 8     Prosecution's concerns could be addressed during cross-examination.

 9             In relation to the two documents, which according to the

10     Prosecution fall outside the scope of the witness's expertise, the

11     Chamber considered that the two documents do not only address the manner

12     in which Serbs left Krajina, but also issues of a military nature such as

13     the regrouping of the RSK Army and the military situation in Krajina on

14     the 4th of August, 1995.  The Chamber found these issues relevant,

15     probative, and within the witness's expertise and that the Defence should

16     not be precluded from using the documents with the witness.

17             With regard to adequate notice that certain documents would be

18     used with the witness, the Chamber considered that, in e-mails of the

19     18th and the 20th of August, 2009, the Gotovina Defence had notified the

20     Prosecution and the Chamber that it may use the 14 documents with Jones.

21     This was well in advance of Jones's first day of testimony on the 31st of

22     August, 2009.  Further, the nine documents had already been admitted into

23     evidence prior to August 2009, and the Prosecution was well aware of

24     their contents.

25             And for these reasons, the Chamber denied the Prosecution's

Page 23219

 1     objection, and this concludes the reasons for the Chamber's decision on

 2     this matter.

 3             Mr. Cipci, we abused the opportunity of your absence -- we abused

 4     the opportunity of your absence to read a decision.  Mr. Kay will now

 5     re-examine you.

 6             Mr. Kay, you may proceed.

 7             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Kay:

 9        Q.   The first matter we're going to look at concerns the document

10     that was shown to you which was under seal.  We've no need to bring it

11     up.  Exhibit D487, with the information contained in that.  Do you

12     recollect that, Mr. Cipci, without going into the detail?

13        A.   What information?

14        Q.   All right.  Let's -- you recollect that you were asked questions

15     about a document.  We went into closed session.  The document was under

16     seal, and various questions were put to you and you were asked for your

17     view about the matter, your opinion, and I'm just putting you there in

18     the context because we're going to look at some documents ourselves and

19     put them before you.

20             MR. KAY:  And the first document, Your Honour, which triggered

21     the previous document is 2D00436.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, would it help if you would say to the

23     witness that this document dealt with murder or rape?

24             MR. KAY:  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Subject of information provided.

Page 23220

 1             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. KAY:

 4        Q.   And this is a document I don't expect you've seen before,

 5     Mr. Cipci.  Is that right?  Just say yes or no.  It's a letter dated the

 6     18th of September, 1995, from the International Committee of the Red

 7     Cross.  It's to General Cermak.  It concerned a conversation on the

 8     Saturday, 17th of September, and he's being informed of serious incidents

 9     which have taken place.  There's a reference there to those incidents.

10     The International Committee of the Red Cross is receiving reports, and

11     then there is a list which is mentioning incidents, and you can see there

12     on the 27th of August, 1995, a reference to a matter.

13             Can we go to page 2.  And we see matters continue to be referred

14     to in a list.  Siveric 28th of August, and then we see Knin, 6th of

15     September, 1995.  And it refers to a report given to a nurse from the

16     ICRC on the 7th of September by a member of the local ICRC staff, and

17     then there is a reference there to a rape with a man and a weapon, and

18     then another man also raping, and that the event was reported to the

19     police in Knin, and the ICRC is still expecting results of the

20     investigation.

21             And next page in the Croatian, remaining on that page briefly.

22     We see a reference to Brgud.  If the English page could be turned over.

23             And you can see the letter is signed by the head of the

24     delegation of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Knin, a

25     lady called Carmen Burger.  And the request for the presentation of the

Page 23221

 1     results to the Knin International Committee of the Red Cross.

 2             Am I correct in thinking you've not seen this document before?

 3        A.   No.  I have never seen it before.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness is kindly

 5     asked to approach the microphone.

 6             MR. KAY:

 7        Q.   Could you get closer to the microphone.

 8        A.   [In English] Okay.

 9        Q.   And that triggered the earlier document you were shown in

10     cross-examination.

11             Can we just go now to 65 ter 2D00-227, and in the interim,

12     Your Honour, while that's being brought up, may I make the previous

13     document an exhibit.

14             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will become Exhibit D1729.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

18             MR. KAY:

19        Q.   Now looking at the next document if you could, Mr. Cipci, it's a

20     record of receipt of criminal report, dated the 8th of September, 1995,

21     and we can see information recorded within that concerning the allegation

22     of a rape.

23             First question:  Is it correct that you will not have seen this

24     document before?

25        A.   [Interpretation] I have never seen it before.

Page 23222

 1        Q.   But as a record of receipt of a criminal report, do you recognise

 2     it as being an official document from the crime police department of

 3     Zadar-Knin police administration?  So not the content but the form of

 4     document that we have that it's authentic?

 5        A.   The format of all records in the police are either the same or

 6     similar.  The format of this record appears to be the official one.  I

 7     have no reason to doubt that it was indeed created by the Zadar-Knin

 8     police administration.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Shall we just finish the -- looking at this document

10     by going to the next page so you and Their Honours can see the details

11     that were recorded in the document of the crime police department on the

12     8th of September.

13             I have no further questions about that, but I did it in the

14     interests of completeness.

15             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, may this document be made an exhibit,

16     please.

17             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours that, becomes Exhibit D1730.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  D1730 is admitted into evidence.

21             Please proceed.

22             MR. KAY:

23        Q.   Can we go to the next document please, still on this topic that

24     was raised to you in cross-examination, 2D00031.  Another document from

25     the Zadar-Knin police administration, dated the 10th of September, 1995.

Page 23223

 1     And again it concerns the incident that we've been looking at.  We can

 2     see the name of the injured party and personal details there.

 3             Do you recognise this document as being an official document from

 4     the Zadar-Knin police administration?  Not the content within it, but the

 5     form of the document.

 6        A.   I recognise the form of this document.  For clarification, I'd

 7     like to say this:  After a certain preceding criminal procedure either

 8     submitted a criminal report or a special report, if they were uncertain

 9     that indeed the entire incident happened as reported.  In such cases,

10     special reports were submitted to the prosecutor, who would go through it

11     and then perhaps order the undertaking of additional measures so as to be

12     able to issue a criminal report which would eventually lead to an

13     indictment depending, of course, on the type of crime.

14             In any case, this document does bear the form of a special report

15     issued by the police.  In a way, this falls under or proceeds a criminal

16     report.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If we could just turn to the second page in the

18     English and the second page in the Croatian language, please.  We see the

19     details there.  We've no need to dwell upon them, but the content of the

20     information shows that there are reasonable grounds for suspicion that

21     subjects with two names, Kristijan, illegible in the English, I'm too far

22     away from the screen to read.  If I can see it in the -- Nakic.

23        A.   Nakic, Kristijan Nakic.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   It's a last name from Sibenik.

Page 23224

 1        Q.   And Sasa Barisic were the suspects.  And if we turn to the next

 2     page, we see the final part of the document, and we see that it was

 3     submitted to various departments, both the crime police, department for

 4     analysis, the investigation centre of Zadar County Court, Zadar District

 5     Public Prosecutor's Office, and it's signed by the chief of the crime

 6     police, Mr. Ive Kardum.

 7             Again, is that a regular procedure, Mr. Cipci?

 8        A.   This had to go to the department of crime police to be registered

 9     and archived.  The analysis department put all of this into the computer

10     so that it was simultaneously be put into the database of the central

11     computer of the Ministry of the Interior.  Then we have the archives and

12     the investigation centre of the county, as well as the district public

13     prosecutor's office.

14             This concerns the special report sent to the addressees under

15     numbers 4 and 5.

16        Q.   Thank you very much.

17             MR. KAY:  The Court will recollect that the two names in this

18     report were within D487 under seal and are connected in that way to the

19     documents used in cross-examination.

20        Q.   And then if finally we go to exhibit --

21             MR. KAY:  May I make the last document an exhibit, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri, I take it that there are no

23     objections.

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 23225

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that becomes Exhibit D1731.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And is admitted into evidence.

 3             MR. KAY:

 4        Q.   And then finally, if we go to Prosecution Exhibit 1223, a

 5     document dated the 11th of October, 1995, from the Knin Garrison, sent to

 6     the lady who triggered the matter from the International Committee of the

 7     Red Cross, Carmen Burger.  And we see references there.  If we go to the

 8     bottom of the page, we see the name S. Borovic.  On the 9th of September,

 9     the perpetrators were discovered and remanded to the investigating

10     magistrate in Zadar.  And in the next page there is further information

11     on an unrelated case which is part of another inquiry, and we see that

12     General Cermak signed that document.

13             Again, is it correct that you've not seen this document before?

14        A.   I have never seen it before.

15        Q.   Thank you.  But it -- it completes the documentary chain.

16             In relation to looking at that matter raised with you, is your

17     opinion changed in any way or your -- what you know, whether Mr. Cermak

18     was involved with having authority over the civilian police?

19        A.   As I have said already, on a few occasions General Cermak did not

20     have such authority.  He received an inquiry by the ICRC.  In order to

21     comprehensively and appropriately respond to the ICRC's representative he

22     had to be informed, and this he could only be if he requested appropriate

23     information from the Zadar-Knin police chief.  He received the necessary

24     information, and as a decent person he forwarded all the details in the

25     letter you showed to me.  He sent it to the head of the ICRC by way of a

Page 23226

 1     response.  I don't think there is anything in dispute in the whole thing.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you.  I have no further questions, Your Honour,

 3     in re-examination.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

 5             Any need for further cross-examination, Mr. Kehoe?

 6             MR. KEHOE:  No, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Mikulicic?

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  Me neither, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Ms. De Landri.

10             MS. DE LANDRI:  No, Your Honour.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I may have a few questions for you.  In your

14     statement, paragraph 6, and I read it to you, it is about on the 5th of

15     August, when you entered Vrlika, you said:  "Nobody was killed in Vrlika,

16     and no houses or stables were burned down."

17             Now, we also looked at D606, and perhaps we could have that on

18     the screen.  In which it is reported, and I think the date of that

19     document is the 8th of August, but we'll have an opportunity to look at

20     it in a second, in which it is reported that six human bodies have been

21     buried.

22             Could you give us additional information about these bodies being

23     buried?  And perhaps we have to go to page --

24        A.   I truly cannot supply any information in that regard.  There is a

25     possibility that during the combat, as the territory was being liberated,

Page 23227

 1     those people were killed and then decently buried.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you can't give us any specific information,

 3     and therefore your statement that no one was killed in Vrlika seems,

 4     well, to be less certain as you put it in your statement.

 5        A.   When I said that no one was killed and that nothing was burnt

 6     down, I meant as of the moment that the military operation ceased, not

 7     during the military operation.  There were murders in certain areas even

 8     following the end of combat activity.  That is why I specified that there

 9     were no killings or burnings in my area of responsibility.

10             JUDGE ORIE: [Interpretation]  Yes, but the identity of the

11     persons that were buried and circumstances under which they died, you

12     cannot give any further details?

13        A.   Not at this moment, because as I am saying the area under my

14     authority was too large, and I did really did not have the time to get

15     everywhere.  I had seven chiefs of different sectors subordinated to me,

16     and 15 commanders of police stations that performed their duties.  My

17     chief of the police sector, Mr. Jure Radalj, and the then commander of

18     the police station in Sinj, Mr. Bilobrk would probably know much more

19     about that because they covered that area and their office was in Vrlika.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In this report on terrain clearance in the

21     area of Vrlika municipality, it is also stated that 60 conscripts took

22     part in it.  Could you tell me, were these military conscripts?  Were

23     these soldiers?

24        A.   Your Honour, I'm afraid I did not understand your question.  What

25     terrain clearance do you have in mind?

Page 23228

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If you look at the document, as regards terrain

 2     clearance in the area of Vrlika municipality until today, the 8th of

 3     August, and that was the date I had on my mind, although the document is

 4     dated the 9th of August, "please be informed that the terrain clearance

 5     unit, 60 conscripts, has accomplished the most important tasks,

 6     including."

 7             Now, you are reporting -- yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

 8             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, I will try to help.  I think it's a

 9     matter of translation in this document.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's then --

11             MR. MIKULICIC:  Because the original says something different

12     than the English text.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And is it the word after 60?

14             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, it is the word immediately in Croatian text,

15     the second word in the first paragraph.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Second word --

17             MR. MIKULICIC:  "Asanacija."

18             JUDGE ORIE:  "Asanacija."

19             MR. MIKULICIC:  Yes.  I believe there is a problem in translation

20     of that word because that word was translated as terrain clearance --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22             MR. MIKULICIC:  So could be a misunderstanding between your

23     questions and the witness answer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  For the --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well then, yes.

Page 23229

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  If I would just read, and my pronunciation may be

 2     very bad, [Interpretation] "Regarding the sanitation and hygiene measures

 3     on the ground."

 4             [In English] Yes.  That is now corrected on the record.

 5             These 60 conscripts the document is referring to, you are

 6     reporting, were they instructed by you?

 7        A.   Well, you see, within the framework of the police administration,

 8     in addition to the police officers we also had fire -- fire-fighting

 9     service and a so-called civilian protection.  The civilian protection at

10     certain moments, whenever necessary, members of the civilian protection

11     would be called to carry out certain duties.  One of such occasions was

12     Operation Storm and its aftermath.  I sent members of the civilian

13     protection, the 60 members of the civilian protection to carry out the

14     sanitation and hygiene measures on the ground.  The highest priority was

15     to inspect the area to see whether there were any dead bodies.  That was

16     the highest priority.  Graves had to be marked if there were any, plastic

17     bags were used for the bodies for further proceedings and identification.

18     Those were my men.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Those were your men.  That means that apart from the

20     police officers that were in your teams, you also had, in addition to

21     that --

22        A.   The civilian protection and firefighters.  I sent some members of

23     the civilian protection and some of the firefighters to Knin to

24     Mr. Romanic.  On the 5th in the afternoon I sent a fire truck with

25     drinking water for my men and for others as well because they had run out

Page 23230

 1     of drinking water.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was mainly interested in better

 3     understanding where these 60 conscripts came from, and I do understand

 4     that these were persons under an obligation to perform the service as

 5     civil protection personnel, and they were under your command for the

 6     performance --

 7        A.   The civilian protection, they were engaged in natural disaster

 8     situations and such like, and then I would take a list and I would issue

 9     an order --

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, one final matter I'd like -- briefly like

11     to put to you.  You described how collection centres, I think you called

12     them, were established.  You made reference to the school and that --

13     yes.  You said that:  "Upon returning to Knin, I ordered the reception

14     centre for old people and children to be established in the elementary

15     school hall," and you said, "A few hundred people that had stayed in

16     their houses remained, and my policemen brought them to the school and

17     that the school was -- in two days was full of old people."

18        A.   Could I be allowed to explain, please?

19             JUDGE ORIE:  I'd first like to ask you a question.

20        A.   [In English] Okay.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  What I'd like to know is if there were -- there were

22     no men in these collection centres, able-bodied men, well, let's say

23     between 18 and 60?

24        A.   [Interpretation] As far as I could see, when I visited the

25     collection centre, and I had a good look when I was searching for the

Page 23231

 1     in-laws of my friend Mr. Svestan Zadric [phoen], who had remained in

 2     Knin, as I told you he called me from Zagreb and asked me to look for

 3     them.  Then I went to the -- my officers.  I took the list of all those

 4     who were there, and I found the gentleman and his wife.  They were mostly

 5     elderly people, but let me tell you also this:  When I arrived in Knin on

 6     the 5th, in the vicinity of the military command I observed a larger

 7     group of elderly people, women, men, and children, who looked scared to

 8     me, and that's why I said to my chief, Radalj, that "a collection centre

 9     should be established for such people who wanted to feel safe."

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That is in your statement and already you testified

11     about that.  My question simply was whether able-bodied men, who you do

12     not mention, were in those collection centres, of in that collection

13     centre in Knin or the other one you mentioned.

14        A.   No, no, no.  I assume that all the young people were in the other

15     one.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  In the other one.  Other collection centre or

17     other school?  What are you referring to?

18        A.   No.  It was the UNPROFOR barracks where other people from Knin

19     found shelter.  There were quite a few of them there, and I suppose that

20     some younger people might have been there as well.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but there was no place where able-bodied men

22     between 18 and 60 would be received in any centre?

23        A.   Well, listen, apart from this centre in Knin, I also had a

24     smaller-sized centre near Sinj, and I told my officers to try and shelter

25     even younger people in Sinj, not to let them stay in Knin.  Later on I

Page 23232

 1     was told that there were some younger ones who were obviously able-bodied

 2     and fit for service, and they were sheltered in that collection centre

 3     near Sinj.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Was there any civilian police activities aiming at

 5     identifying possible suspects of armed rebellion; that is, Serbs who may

 6     have been involved in the army of the -- the RSK?  Because you do not say

 7     anything about that.  Do I have to understand that no such police

 8     activity took place or that it was not something you considered worth

 9     mentioning?

10        A.   I did not mention that for a very simple reason:  Nobody ever

11     asked me.  During the occupation of that area within my police

12     administration, we had a department which tried to collect as much

13     information as possible about those people who were involved in the armed

14     conflict.  Likewise, the service for the protection of the constitutional

15     order, the intelligence service that had been established with the

16     Ministry of the Interior, also dealt with that issue, and for that

17     reason, as far as I can remember, the Service for the Protection of the

18     Constitutional Order, after the liberation, compiled a list of people who

19     found shelter in the UNPROFOR barracks who might have been charged with

20     the armed conflict and that list was accompanied with all the materials

21     that they had collected.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kehoe.

23             MR. KEHOE:  I've been advised by Mr. Misetic that there is a

24     translation issue.  So if I can turn the floor to him on that score.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

Page 23233

 1             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, it's the translation of the phrase

 2     at page 72, lines 13 to 14, and I believe you mention it again.  It's

 3     being translated as "armed conflict," and I believe the witness is using

 4     the phrase you used in your question.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That is "armed rebellion."

 6             Now where -- and this will really be my last question.  I'm not

 7     interested in details.  I am just trying to complete my picture of the

 8     activities.  Where were these younger, able-bodied men who could be

 9     suspected as having taken part in the armed rebellion and who were not in

10     the UNCRO premises, where were they interviewed or were they held at

11     anyplace.

12        A.   You see, as far as I know, in the liberated area very few or no

13     people who had been involved in the armed rebellion could be found.

14     Either they fled together with the army or if they stayed on they found

15     shelter in the barracks that was under the protection of UNPROFOR.

16     Negotiations were conducted with UNPROFOR for a long time for those

17     people to be handed over, as far as I know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  In my question I specifically excluded those who

19     were on the UNCRO premises.  So if I do understand --

20        A.   There were no other premises of that nature, and the police never

21     questioned those people.  If that was possibly done subsequently, then it

22     was done by either the Sibenik or the Zadar Police Administration Crime

23     Service.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for those answers.  I think I

25     have -- I have no further questions for you.

Page 23234

 1             Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need --

 2             MR. KAY:  No, Your Honour.

 3             MR. KEHOE:  No, Mr.  President.

 4             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  That's three times no.

 6             Ms. De Landri.

 7             MS. DE LANDRI:  No, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Cipci, this then concludes your

 9     testimony in this Court.  I would like to thank you very much for coming

10     a long way to The Hague and for patiently answering all the questions

11     that were put to you both by the parties and by the Bench, and I wish you

12     safe trip home again.

13             Madam Usher, could you --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must say one thing.  I enjoyed

15     the attention.  I enjoyed the comfort of the hotel.  However, the stay

16     was really too long.  I should have stayed nine -- two days.  I've stayed

17     nine.  I repeat, I am getting on.  I have my own rhythm.  I am used to my

18     own ways, so I have been bothered by such a long stay.  Still, would I

19     like to thank everybody who has helped me feel comfortable in The Hague,

20     and I must say I have felt comfortable in your courtroom as well.

21             Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  That's good to hear.  Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not aware of any other procedural matters we'd

Page 23235

 1     have to deal with at this very moment.  I may have missed something,

 2     but ...

 3             MR. KAY:  There is -- because we're coming up to the break -- --

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. KAY:  -- there is the outstanding issue of a witness that we

 6     applied to add to our list.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. KAY:  His statement's been distributed.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's Witness 43 or ...

10             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] Surak [phoen] 46.  I'm sorry,

11     forgetting the number.  IC46.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, I can inform you that either -- I have

14     already signed this morning a written decision on the matter.  I think I

15     did, so it may already have been filed.  But if not, then I would sign it

16     within the next hour because there's agreement.  And your request, which

17     was not objected to by the Prosecution is granted.

18             MR. KAY:  I'm much obliged to Your Honour.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then any other matter?  If not, then I'd first like

20     to apologise to interpreters, transcribers, and all those who are

21     assisting us by going on for such a long time, but it saves us another

22     session, because we'll adjourn, but we resume on Monday, the 26th of

23     October, at 9.00 in the morning, in Courtroom III.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.51 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of

Page 23236

 1                           October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.