1 Monday, 26 October 2009
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T,
10 the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 I would like to put on the record that the videolink which was
14 granted for witnesses IC-01 and IC-02 has become moot because both
15 witnesses have been withdrawn from the witness list by the
16 Cermak Defence.
17 Then I -- there was a matter where the Prosecution was due to
18 inform the Chamber today, Mr. Waespi, not to be done in open court, but
19 do you have any idea on when you would want to inform the Chamber?
20 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I have a written affidavit or
21 declaration by the investigator which I could file or deal with any way
22 you deem appropriate.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider that during the first break.
24 Thank you.
25 Then is the Cermak Defence ready to call its next witness, which
1 I understand would be -- and apparently without protective measures,
2 would be Emin Teskeredzic.
3 MR. KAY: That's correct, Your Honour. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam -- Mr. Usher.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Teskeredzic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
9 Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, that you will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic. Please be seated.
15 Mr. Teskeredzic, you will first be examined by Mr. Kay. Mr. Kay
16 is counsel for Mr. Cermak.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
18 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: EMIN TESKEREDZIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Examination by Mr. Kay:
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Teskeredzic.
23 A. Good morning.
24 Q. Mr. Teskeredzic, I'd like you to look at the screen to your
25 right, and I'm going to ask to you look at a document that will come onto
1 the screen, which is 2D00724.
2 This is a statement that you signed for the Defence, and I want
3 you to identify it.
4 Can you see there on the right-hand side of the screen a
5 statement -- [overlapping speakers] ...
6 A. Yes, can I. I can see it.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... down at the bottom so that
8 we can see your signature on it. Do you identify your signature?
9 A. Yes, it is mine.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. KAY: Perhaps now if we could look at the last page of the
13 Q. And can you see there your signature at the end of the document,
14 next to the date of the 26th of May, 2009?
15 A. Yes, I can see it. It is mine.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in between each page is signed by
18 Mr. Teskeredzic.
19 Q. And, Mr. Teskeredzic, when you gave that statement to the Defence
20 and signed that statement, did you have an opportunity to read through it
21 and confirm the contents?
22 A. Yes, I did, and I confirmed the contents.
23 Q. Is everything that you have said in that statement, to the best
24 of your knowledge and belief, true and correct?
25 A. Yes, it is true and correct.
1 Q. If I was to ask you in court today the same questions in respect
2 of which you gave answers that gave the information in this statement,
3 would those answers be the same today?
4 A. Yes, they would.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. KAY: In those circumstances, Your Honour, I ask that this
7 statement be made an exhibit.
8 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours, this document becomes
11 Exhibit D1732. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: D1732 is admitted into evidence.
13 MR. KAY: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will give a brief summary of the
16 statement before I go on to ask Mr. Teskeredzic some further questions.
17 Mr. Teskeredzic is, by occupation, someone involved in research,
18 in relation to maritime science. During the conflict in the former
20 worked for a waterborne operations unit, and his experience in working in
21 the decommissioning of mines and explosions caused him to work in various
22 areas of the conflict between 1992 and 1995.
23 At the time of Operation Oluja, he was not mobilized and was on
24 holiday; but after hearing of the liberation of the occupied territories
25 and hearing of the appointment of Mr. Cermak as the commander of the
1 garrison in the town of Knin
2 services to help him in normalising life in Knin by decommissioning any
3 booby-traps, mines, or explosives that may have been left behind by the
4 RSK forces who had occupied the area previously. He contacted former
5 members of his unit. He went to Knin and set about that kind of work on
6 behalf of the community working for Mr. Cermak as required as well as
7 Mr. Pasic.
8 Because of his experience in fish and maritime matters, he also,
9 with the help of others, restored the fish farm in Knin to enable it to
10 operate for the benefit of the town. And during his work for Mr. Cermak
11 and Knin, he undertook various operations whereby he was de-mining areas
12 outside the town to make various public installations safe.
13 Your Honour, that's the summary of his statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
15 MR. KAY:
16 Q. Mr. Teskeredzic, I'm now going ask you some specific questions in
17 relation to your evidence. And is it correct that at the time of
18 Operation Oluja, you were not in fact mobilized?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And did you voluntarily contact Mr. Cermak to see if you could
21 give him any help in Knin?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. And did Mr. Cermak accept your offer of assistance?
24 A. Yes, he did.
25 Q. Did you contact members of your former unit to establish whether
1 they would be able to come and help you in your work in Knin?
2 A. Yes. I contacted them and made arrangements with them.
3 Q. And did they come and join you over the next few days and operate
4 with you in Knin?
5 A. Yes, they did, and they operated with me.
6 Q. In relation to your work in munitions de-mining, what were the
7 particular matters that you were concerned with in Knin at this time?
8 A. Specifically, we checked the railway lines, specific facilities.
9 We found a storage place close to the railway line; we emptied it. We
10 transferred the contents to the military depot. We followed the railway
11 line toward Zadar and toward Gracac. Individuals would approach us who
12 had returned -- who wanted to return to their homes and wanted to us
13 check if the area was safe. We also had to check the electricity grid
14 facilities, including electricity posts, which we had to check the safety
15 of before electricity workers could commence their work, so that the
16 electricity supply would be restored to Knin.
17 Q. After a period of time, were steps taken by you and Mr. Cermak to
18 have you officially mobilized, in relation to your work in the area?
19 A. Yes. He sent a request to my institute, asking that I be
20 relieved of my duties for a certain period of time, and he did the same
21 for my associates, who were there working with me.
22 MR. KAY: If we could look at Exhibit D1027, please.
23 Q. A document is going to come up on the right-hand screen again.
24 Mr. Teskeredzic, I'd like you to look at that document in your own
25 language. It's dated the 19th of August, 1995. It's signed by
1 Mr. Cermak. And it's addressed to the Rudjer Boskovic Institute in
3 First of all, can you confirm that the Rudjer Boskovic institute
4 in Zagreb
5 A. Yes, I worked for the Institute at the time.
6 Q. And are you currently working there now, in fact?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. We can see here that its subject is request for
9 relief from employment, and it reads about the exceptional need to
10 organise pyrotechnical clearance of the terrain and facilities and
11 removal of mine and explosive devices and ammunition. And we can see
12 that it states that had you been carrying out the activities since the
13 6th of August, and a request is made to relieve you from your employment
14 until further notice.
15 Did you see this letter at the time?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. And was it your idea or Mr. Cermak's idea that it should be
18 written to the Institute?
19 A. The idea was mine. I was on annual leave for a while, and I was
20 supposed to report back to work. So my status had to be settled, in a
21 way, and it was done through the request addressed to the Institute to
22 relieve me of my permanent duties so that I may attend to the duties I
23 had in Knin at the time.
24 MR. KAY: If we could now turn to Exhibit D1026.
25 Q. This is another letter dated the 19th of August, 1995, sent by
1 Mr. Cermak to the Ministry of Defence in Zagreb, mobilisation
2 administration, and is a request for mobilisation in relation to the work
3 we described of you, a Colonel Domancic, and Lieutenant Tomsic.
4 And were you aware of that letter being written at that time by
5 Mr. Cermak, requesting your mobilisation by the Ministry of Defence?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. Colonel Domancic, Lieutenant Tomsic; what was your connection
8 with them?
9 A. They were members of the same unit that I was previously. And
10 Domancic was my deputy, and he was a top-notch explosives expert.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. KAY: Next document, D1028.
13 Q. If you could just look at this document. It's from the
14 Split Military District Command, Knin forward command post, dated the
15 6th of September. Subject: Mobilisation of servicemen. Our response to
16 the Knin garrison, signed by General Gotovina.
17 And we can see the information in the letter, but it's the last
18 sentence, the Defence minister did not agree to the mobilisation of the
19 requested individuals.
20 Were you aware that the minister of defence had refused the
21 initial request to mobilise you and your colleagues made by Mr. Cermak?
22 A. No, I was not aware of it.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. KAY: If we could now look to the next document, 2D00254.
25 It's a letter dated the 11th of September, 1995. It's from the
1 Knin garrison by Mr. Cermak and addressed to the minister of defence in
3 from the letter written there that, because of the need for de-mining
4 terrain structures, we were forced during Operation Storm to take
5 de-miners without a mobilisation call-up, for whom we later issued
6 mobilisation call-ups, dated the 4th of September ...
7 It's stated that the letter we've just looked at on the 6th of
8 September denied the request and that the minister of defence had not
9 given his approval. And then the last paragraph:
10 Since the - it's got military conscripts here - are still in the
11 field and are necessary, due to the extent of the work and their
12 expertise, they cannot be paid a salary until they receive your approval.
13 And the request is made for the mobilisation.
14 Were you aware that General Cermak had written to Minister Susak
15 to try and obtain the mobilisation of you and your colleagues?
16 A. I know that he took steps to have us mobilised. Now, who he
17 wrote to in the process, I don't know. We had a great deal of work to
18 do, and I simply did not give it any thought.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. KAY: If we look at page 2 of the letter, we will see a list
21 of de-miners.
22 Q. And do you recognise the names there? Of course, not only your
23 own, but of the others? Were they part of your team?
24 A. Yes, they were.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. KAY: If we can now go to -- oh, Your Honour, may this
2 document be made an exhibit. Thank you.
3 MR. WAESPI: No objections.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will become
6 Exhibit D1733. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: D1733 is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. KAY: Thank you.
9 The next document I'd like us to look at is 65 ter 4635.
10 Q. It's a letter dated the 18th of September, 1995, from the
11 Administration for Compulsory Military Service and Mobilisation sent to
12 the Knin garrison. And we can see that on that date the letter says,
13 based on the Article 55 that the Ministry of Defence approved the request
14 of garrison an ordered the mobilisation of four of the listed people,
15 including yourself. The name Drago Margus is missing from the previous
17 Are you able to help why his name was missing from this list?
18 A. Probably because he worked in -- at the fish breeding farm most
19 of the time and did not engage in mine clearance on -- to that extent.
20 Q. Thank you. And we can see what the letter says, about the report
21 that is required to be submitted after completion of mobilisation. And
22 that they were to be received by General Cermak and the various
23 addressees, including Split Military District Command that this was
24 addressed to.
25 Thank you.
1 If we could now turn to the next document.
2 MR. WAESPI: No objections if it's to be tendered, this one.
3 MR. KAY: Yeah, I was calling up the next one while I was going
4 to then tender it.
5 Can that document be made an exhibit, please, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no objections, Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document becomes
8 Exhibit D1734. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence.
10 MR. KAY: Can we have -- sorry, Your Honour.
11 Can we have Exhibit D767, please.
12 Q. This document is dated the 20th of September, 1995, from the
13 Split Military District Command, Knin forward command post, to the Knin
14 garrison. And, again, pursuant to Article 55 of the Law on Defence, the
15 order is made. The following may be mobilized for Military Post 3231,
16 Knin. And we see the list of names there, this time including
17 Drago Margus, to be mobilized, to report to the Knin garrison, to be
18 received by Colonel -- General Cermak. And when mobilisation has been
19 implemented, a report was to be sent to the Split Military District
20 Command, section for mobilisation, Knin forward command post. And the
21 end of the letter -- order says: Following the execution of the tasks
22 planned - this is on page 3 - demobilize conscript, issue them with
23 certificates, and inform the responsible defence offices where the
24 conscripts' records are kept of this, signed by General Gotovina.
25 Were you aware at that time that the mobilisation was eventually
1 granted by the Minister of Defence, Mr. Susak, as well as by
2 General Gotovina?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 Was a report on the work of the explosive ordnance disposal team
6 for the period from August to September 1995 filed by you?
7 A. There was a report, yes.
8 MR. KAY: Perhaps if we can look at Exhibit D1030.
9 JUDGE ORIE: While we are waiting, Mr. Kay, I didn't find the
10 18th of September approval, which is now D1734 on your exhibit list to be
11 used. Was it on your 65 ter list?
12 MR. KAY: It's on the Prosecution 65 ter list.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the Prosecution 65 ter list.
14 MR. KAY: Yes, yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So I --
16 MR. WAESPI: But not for this witness. It's on the general
17 65 ter list.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I take it, then, Mr. Waespi, that no
19 objections would include the introduction of the document as a potential
21 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I -- in view of my question, I would have
25 expected a yes. But I took it that there would be no objection and no
1 means here no objection.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. We have, on our screen in front of us, a report dated the 22nd of
5 September, 1995, and we see the list of names there.
6 Were those the individuals who made up your team, in relation to
7 the ordnance disposal work?
8 A. Yes, yes, they were.
9 Q. And if we look at the work that's itemised there, we see the
10 railway, hydroelectric power, diary, trout farm in Srb. Trout farm,
11 Krcic; Knin; Gips; Tvik; and various other places, institutions.
12 Was that work the work that you and your team had undertaken?
13 A. Yes, that's the sort of work we did.
14 Q. Civilian facilities identified. Military facilities. Kosovo
15 warehouses in Kosovo.
16 What were those warehouses? Can you remember what those
17 facilities were?
18 A. These were military facilities along the Krka river. One of the
19 military facilities was Vitorog relay centre. There was a large amount
20 of explosive there. There were 15 trenches with the 400 kilos of
21 explosive -- explosives. There was a train we found in a tunnel that was
22 loaded with explosives. There was another warehouse at Bender, up at the
23 railway station above Knin close to a private home, where we found a
24 great amount of explosives that were transported to Knin, and from there
25 on to Sibenik.
1 Q. You mentioned Bender. Can you describe what you did in relation
2 to Bender, how those munitions were discovered, and how you went there?
3 A. When we were checking the railway line, we came across the
4 storage facility. We had to walk along the railway line, and as we found
5 the storage place or the warehouse we went back to Knin to seek
6 assistance from Mr. Cermak, in terms of organising means of transport.
7 There were 70 to 80 tons of ammunitions that we found up there. We had
8 maps, since we weren't that sure of the route we were supposed to take.
9 Mr. Cermak organised for Mr. Pero Pasic to accompany us. He hailed from
10 that particular place, and he knew his way there. So it took us two or
11 three trips to load all of the ammunitions, and I believe that we have a
12 record stating exactly the amount of explosives found there and what sort
13 of ammunition it involved.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. KAY: I'd like to look at Exhibit D763, please.
16 Q. This is a document headed order from the Knin garrison, signed by
17 General Cermak. And it refers to the urgent clearing of the military
18 depot in Plavno, and with the aim of making the return of the population
19 to this settlement as flexible and fast as possible. "And I hereby issue
20 the following order. Clear the facility and the terrain in the village
21 of Plavno as urgently as possible. Person responsible, Lieutenant Vuk.
22 "Make the mines and explosives," et cetera, "in the warehouse the
23 priority. Person responsible: Lieutenant Vuk."
24 And a commission was appointed, including you and a report to be
25 filed after the task, and the resources should be transferred to the
1 section of the logistics base in Sibenik.
2 Does this order from General Cermak relate to that munitions that
3 you were describing as being found near Knin?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. KAY: If we go to Exhibit D1020.
7 Q. We can see the report from Colonel Frkic on the confiscation of
8 the materiel and equipment from the railway station depot, Plavno-Benderi
9 hamlet to General Cermak. And describes going to Bender and finding
10 weapons and munition and that it was taken away to the 306th Logistics
11 Base in Sibenik.
12 Is that correct, as a description in this report, as to what
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said there was munitions and explosives found here. What --
16 what would be -- what was the quantity, what was the scale of the
17 discovery of munitions found in this place?
18 A. It wasn't a military depot but, rather, a building belonging to a
19 cooperative or something like. There were Zoljas, there were
20 machine-guns, ammunitions, and hand-grenades. We made the exact list. I
21 can't remember anymore how much we found of each type of explosive, but
22 there were about 80 tons altogether. We had to take two truck-loads. We
23 couldn't transport it all at once.
24 Q. If we look at the next page, we see a list.
25 Just cast your eye down that to look at the type of munitions
1 that were found. We can see a hand-held rocket-launcher, rocket,
2 grenades, shells.
3 If we turn to page 2 now, we see further munitions.
4 Where -- was this materiel held in a secure way? How was it held
5 in this building?
6 A. It was kept -- the cellar of that building. I can't say that the
7 place was too secure.
8 Q. And did this kind of materiel being in the area at the time, was
9 that a danger?
10 A. Yes, it was a great danger. Even we felt insecure, because there
11 could have been a booby-trap in any of those cases, and we could have all
12 been blown up. So it was a very dangerous job.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. KAY: If we could now look at Exhibit D765.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, could I just seek one piece of
16 clarification on this list.
17 Under number 2 it reads 64 millimetre M-80 Zolja RBR. Was that
18 ammunition, or were these rocket-launchers; do you remember?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These were rocket-launchers,
20 hand-held rocket-launchers.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 MR. KAY:
23 Q. Is the quantity there 158?
24 I would move from the page, sorry.
25 MR. KAY: Can we just go back to the second page.
1 Oh, if it's ... I'm sorry, I didn't realize we'd moved on.
2 Your Honour, we -- took us back and the other document was
3 already there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. KAY: Yes, the Croatian has 158 ... Thank you.
6 Yeah, well, we can see that, no question arises. Can we go back
7 to --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, however the -- the list says that there
9 were 158 boxes. The unit being a box, the quantity being 158.
10 Does that mean that there were 158 boxes containing
11 Zolja hand-held rocket-launchers, Mr. Teskeredzic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that there were
13 158 pieces of these rocket-launchers, but I can't really remember
14 exactly. There was a huge amount of everything there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said there was a huge amount of
16 everything. But this out as the second -- no, third highest number of
17 equipment --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there were that many.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Kay.
21 MR. KAY:
22 Q. And just looking at number 3, 82-millimetre M-60 BST recoilless
23 gun rocket, 22. Is that 22 recoilless gun rockets or shells or bullets,
24 whatever they are?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's not an answer to the question, I'm
4 Is this -- let me just check first.
5 Yes, so that is -- perhaps it is an answer, but perhaps I'm not
6 sufficiently familiar. That means that it is 22 rockets to be fired by a
7 recoilless gun. Is that how I have to understand item number 3 on this
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. KAY: Yes.
13 Q. I think the rest is self-explanatory.
14 MR. KAY: Shall we go to Exhibit D765.
15 Q. We can see here a request for temporary transfer written on the
16 22nd of August by General Cermak to Colonel General Cuk of the
17 1st Croatian Guards Corps. And referring to the exceptional need to
18 carry out explosive ordnance clearing of terrain and facilities. And
19 then requesting Major Vuk, Lieutenant Plemencic, Junior
20 Lieutenant Perkovic to be transferred to the garrison as the individuals,
21 as per a request dated the 8th of August, 1995, were engaged in the work.
22 And Colonel Gregorovic was informed of this request on 15th of August and
23 the matter needed to be resolved promptly and requesting the temporary
24 transfer of two More, Lieutenant Teskeredzic, Staff-sergeant Halas.
25 Were you aware at the time of Mr. Cermak also seeking other
1 members to be involved with the ordnance clearing, including a
2 Lieutenant Teskeredzic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is Lieutenant Teskeredzic related to you?
5 A. Yes, that is my son.
6 Q. And was he involved in ordnance clearance as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 Did you also file further reports on the clearing of the Vitorog
10 railway relay junction?
11 MR. KAY: If we can see Exhibit D1031.
12 Q. Was this a report filed by you concerning the Vitorog relay
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. KAY: No further questions on that.
17 Q. Moving now to other work, did you become involved in the repair
18 of the fish farm in Knin?
19 A. Yes. This is my area of expertise, and this is where I could
20 help most.
21 Q. What did you discover in relation to the fish farm? What was its
22 condition and state?
23 A. The fish farm needs to be cleaned. The screens need to be
24 cleaned every day. When you breed trouts, the water needs to circulate
25 up to 120 times a day, so you need a large quantity of water. Once you
1 stop this circulation of water, once the screens are filled with leaves
2 or any other material, the fish start to die. So we needed to establish
3 the normal conditions as soon as possible, to prevent fish from dying.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you issue a report to Mr. Cermak telling him
5 about the condition of the trout farm and what you found there?
6 A. Yes, I did report to him.
7 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that's Exhibit D1033. I don't propose to
8 go into it in any further detail as it's dealt with in the statement.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It is in evidence.
10 MR. KAY: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. KAY: If we can just have a look at Exhibit D2D00547. 65 ter
14 Q. Can you see this document dated the 18th of September?
15 A. Yes, I can see that.
16 Q. And it's -- it's headed Split Military District Command, Knin
17 forward command post, and it's a proposal for commendation of the
18 president of Croatia
19 of names there of the individuals and yourself who had been identified as
20 part of your team for a commendation from the president.
21 Were you aware that you had been put forward, you and your team,
22 for a commendation in relation to the work that you had done?
23 A. Yes, I was aware of that.
24 Q. Did you receive a commendation for your work?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And we can see on -- if we go to page 2, a statement of reasons
2 filed signed by the Knin garrison commander, General Cermak, and a
3 description of the nature of the work that was involved.
4 Thank you, no need to ask you further questions about that.
5 MR. KAY: May this document be made an exhibit, Your Honour.
6 MR. WAESPI: I have no objection but just to -- to make sure
7 there are no misunderstandings in the transcript, the letter stems from
8 the Knin garrison and is addressed to the Knin forward command post.
9 MR. KAY: Yes, I'm sorry, my mistake, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: In the absence of any objections, Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document Exhibit D1735. Thank
13 JUDGE ORIE: D1735 is admitted into evidence.
14 MR. KAY: That's all I need ask. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Kay, I have one question for
16 you. You have more or less reconstructed the mobilisation history of
17 this witness. Now we start mid-August asking for retroactive effect.
18 Then you've shown us the 6th of September decision on the matter, which
19 was then repeated -- the request was then repeated.
20 Now, the 6th of September document refers to something, a
21 document on the 4th of September, and that's apparently -- and I'm
22 referring you to D17 -- is it -- no. Let me just have a look.
23 MR. KAY: [Microphone not activated] D1028, the 6th of September.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is the one that refers to -- that's the
25 rejection of the request for mobilisation. That refers to a document on
1 4th of September which we have not seen. So that to extent there seems
2 to be a gap in the reconstruction. Is it your intention to produce that,
3 or is there any specific reason why if not dealt with the 4th of
4 September request, and you just jumped from mid-August to the 6th of
6 MR. KAY: Can I just make things clear. Nothing is being hidden
7 away from Your Honour because I want to make it clear that we just find
8 the materials 15 years later that we find. And if a document is missing
9 in chain of correspondents, it's not for want of looking by my team and
10 me through various databases to try and pull together all -- all the
12 Sometimes you -- we are unable to find a missing document and
13 much time and energy goes into trying to make the link. So I do remind
14 the Court that, that when we do put together links of -- of these
15 documents, we're not trying to hide anything from the Court, if something
16 is missing, we have actually done our best out of very dispirit sources
17 from the Prosecution 65 ter list where you might find one document --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kay, if you say we don't have the document,
19 that's the reason why it's not there, that explains your situation. And
20 then, of course -- but it was presented immediately following the 18th of
21 -- or the 19th of August request -- was it the 19th? I think it was.
22 MR. KAY: 19th, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --
24 MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] ...
25 JUDGE ORIE: Just for us to note that there is a missing element
1 in the reconstruction.
2 MR. KAY: Yes. The passage is it goes mobilisation, refusal;
3 then to the minister of defence, refusal; and then eventually it gets a
4 -- a permission that is granted. That's the -- the journey of this
5 particular matter.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi would, have you a copy of this document
7 of the 9th -- of the 4th of September?
8 MR. WAESPI: I don't have it, but I can try to -- to get it for
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. A complete picture is always better than a
11 half-complete picture.
12 MR. KAY: We would be absolutely grateful for that, but we have
13 not been able to find anything.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Then the other Defence teams.
16 Any questions, Mr. Kehoe?
17 MR. KEHOE: No, Mr. President. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 MR. MIKULICIC: No questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No questions.
21 Mr. Waespi, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
22 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I am, Mr. President. Just one moment.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Teskeredzic, you will now be cross-examined by
24 Mr. Waespi. Mr. Waespi is counsel for the Prosecution.
25 Just for my information, Mr. Kay said Mr. Teskeredzic. I said
1 Mr. Teskeredzic. What's the right way of pronouncing your name? Because
2 I'd like to do it appropriately.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Teskeredzic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Waespi.
6 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:
8 Q. Good morning, Mr. Teskeredzic.
9 Did you have an academic degree?
10 A. Yes, I graduated from the school of veterinary medicine. I am an
11 -- I have an MA in oceanology. I also have a Ph.D. at the Faculty of
12 Agriculture, and I am a scientific advisor, which means that I am a full
13 time university teacher.
14 Q. Thank you very much. Because I also have difficulties to
15 pronounce your name, so I will call you doctor if that's fine.
16 A. That's quite okay. Thank you.
17 Q. I would like to start by clarifying your functions within the
18 Croatian Army as I can see them from your witness statement, which is
19 D1732 in paragraph 2.
20 Now, I understand that in July 1991 you joined the Croatian
21 Defence, and then you became the commander of the special de-mining and
22 waterborne operations. From when to when were you the commander of that
24 A. So from that first day, the date that you quoted, until the end
25 of 1994.
1 Q. And Colonel Jerko Domancic was your deputy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And was he also your deputy when you went with your team to Knin
4 in August 1995?
5 A. Yes. He's the best expert, the top expert for explosives and
6 mine clearance. This is why I always had him at hand.
7 Q. And I understand that the members of your team whom you took with
8 you in 1995 were also, by and large, the members you had when you
9 commanded that unit between 1991 and 1994; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic.
12 Now, another point I wanted to clarify with you is in paragraph 4
13 of your statement where you say that you learned about the appointment of
14 Mr. Cermak as the commander of the Knin garrison on the radio.
15 Do you remember when that was and what the message was on the
17 A. As I stated here, I was interested in knowing what was going on.
18 I was on holiday. When I learned that Mr. Cermak was appointed commander
19 of the Knin garrison, I phoned him, an offered my assistance together
20 with my colleagues in normalising life in Knin. It was a news item on
21 the radio that I heard about him being appointed to that duty. That's
22 all I can tell you.
23 Q. On what day was that? On the 6th of August, or on the 5th of
25 A. It was on the 5th of August, because I believe that I was already
1 in Knin on the 6th.
2 Q. And do you remember which radio station it was that you listened
3 to and heard that message?
4 A. The Zagreb
5 broadcast. But those are the media I followed at the time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, you referred to the radio in the
7 statement. It's media in the statement. Nothing more, nothing less.
8 And the word "radio" for the first time appears on page 25, line 10.
9 MR. WAESPI: I think, Mr. President, in paragraph 4, line 5, it
10 says, "Later I heard about his appointment on the radio as well."
11 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Yes. You're right. I focussed on the
12 second line, which was incomplete. Thank you.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Let's move on to paragraph 5 of your witness statement, where you
16 state that on your way to Knin you stopped in Zadar and reported to
17 General Gotovina's headquarters.
18 Now, what kind of headquarter was that, if you remember?
19 A. There was the army that was under his command there. Since I was
20 heading for a war zone, I wanted to be well-informed so that I do not
21 happen to come across enemy forces. I wanted to know what the situation
22 was like in Knin.
23 Q. You talked to the duty officer. Do you remember his -- according
24 to your witness statement. Do you remember his rank or his name?
25 A. I really do not, no.
1 Q. And then you go on to say that you wanted to have an employee
2 from that headquarters, I guess, assigned to you as, you know, somebody
3 to guide you through that war zone. Was an employee assigned to you?
4 A. Somebody did come along, but I cannot really remember who it was.
5 There was the general excitement of the times, and 15 years later, I can
6 hardly remember the faces, let alone names. I do remember a person
7 accompanying me, since it was not all that safe.
8 Q. Then you go on to say that you informed your colleagues,
9 Colonel Domancic, Mr. Tomsic, Ivo Maljur, and Mr. Vuk. And I think they
10 were in Zagreb
11 A. By telephone.
12 Q. From where?
13 A. I think that I phoned them back in Osor, where I was. Initially
14 I phoned them to find out what the situation was like. So as soon as I
15 found out about Mr. Cermak's appointment, I was in touch with them.
16 Q. And Osor, that was where you were, I think you said, on vacation?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where is that approximately?
19 A. Osor is a place on the island of Cres.
20 verge between the island of Cres
21 Q. And looking at Split
22 the Croatian coast?
23 A. North of Split
24 Q. Thank you. Now, the team you described, these various names with
25 Colonel Domancic as the deputy, you were the leader of that team; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, let's go to -- briefly to your mobilisation again. It's
4 been dealt with by -- by Mr. Kay. You were mobilised into the Knin
5 military -- the Knin garrison. Is that correct? That's the VP number,
6 the unit you were mobilised into, assigned into. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was done at the request of General Cermak.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then we know from D1027 - we don't need to pull that up
11 again - that you started to work immediately on the 6th of August without
12 the paperwork, without any formal authorisation from the authorities
13 above Mr. Cermak being ready at that time. You started to work
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So Mr. Cermak was clearly able to get in touch with you, or you
17 got in touch with him, and make you and your team available to work with
18 him without having, at that time, the authorisation of his superiors; is
19 that correct?
20 A. That's correct, yes.
21 Q. In paragraph 9 of your witness statement, you state that you
22 responded to every request for assistance.
23 Now, from whom did you receive these requests, if you recall?
24 A. Of course, I do. There were people arriving who were returning
25 to their homes. There were representatives of the electricity supply
1 company, representatives of -- or, rather, members of military units who
2 asked us to accompany them when they had to check the railway line
3 because there weren't that many of them, and we did in fact go out to
4 check the railway lines.
5 We were volunteers, and we were there to respond to anyone's
6 call. Our duty at the time was to help prevent any serious incident
7 happening resulting in injury or damage to anyone or anything.
8 Q. Was Lieutenant Vuk also part of your team?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now let's look at D763, and we have seen this document already
11 this morning.
12 So this document shows that members of your team were ordered by
13 General Cermak to do certain things. Is that correct? If you look at
14 paragraph 1.
15 A. Given the huge amount of explosives and ammunition present in the
16 area, there was need for all of it to be taken out, removed, and, thus,
17 to remove the danger that threatened everyone.
18 Q. And General Cermak made Lieutenant Andjelko Vuk responsible
19 according to this document to clear the facility and terrain in the
20 village of Plavno as urgently as possible.
21 Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you also served on -- on a commission that was established by
24 General Cermak, as we see in paragraph 3.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 In paragraph 9 of your witness statement, you address the
3 personnel, I believe, and I want to talk a little bit about gentleman
4 Modrusan and Dr. Margus. It was General Cermak who made it possible that
5 these two gentlemen were made available to you. Is that correct?
6 A. Where is that?
7 MR. WAESPI: Let's go to D1119.
8 Q. Here you see an order by General Cermak --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. By General Cermak that Mr. Zvonko Modrusan, an employee of, I
11 believe, your institute, to come and be placed at the disposal of the
12 Knin garrison commander. Do you see that?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. So Mr. Cermak was capable of organising people so you could do
15 your job; is that correct?
16 A. He tried to bring in people who could help us deal with certain
17 matters. In this case, it involved a fish farm.
18 Q. And Mr. Modrusan, he showed up and helped you to deal with these
19 issues of the fish farm; is that correct?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And the same is true with Dr. Margus. It's the same story.
22 Mr. Cermak, he --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- ordered him to come, and Mr. -- Dr. Margus actually showed up
25 as well.
1 A. Ordered. Asked.
2 Q. Where do you see the word "ask" in D1119?
3 A. Well, you see, he couldn't order him. He couldn't order the
4 institute. It may have been an error on his part. Also in my case, he
5 wrote an order whereas he should have written a request, something to
6 that effect.
7 Q. But you agree with me that Mr. Cermak used the word "order"?
8 A. Yes. But it -- to me, it seems to be an error, because who is it
9 -- is he sending this to, really?
10 Q. Did you see the -- this document for the first time?
11 A. No, no. I've seen the document. But, you see, he is sending an
12 order but to the attention of the Rudjer Boskovic Institute.
13 Q. Have you told the Defence team when you were shown the order or
14 after you were shown the order that you thought this was a mistake?
15 A. Yes. In my view, the Rudjer Boskovic Institute and the national
16 park, they all came there of their own accord. What was required was a
17 formal document that would relieve these people of their regular duties
18 so that they could come and deal with these matters.
19 Q. And in paragraph 2 of this document you also say -- it also
20 states that this order shall take effect immediately?
21 A. Well, yes. Because they were already there on the spot. We were
22 already engaged in our activities, and those of us who went there had to
23 have some sort of a paper, a formality so that we could engage in mine
24 clearance so as to save lives, and in dealing with the fish farm to save
25 the fish stock there. So there needed to be a formal document indicating
1 that the stated individuals were engaged in such and such activities of
2 clearance and maintenance.
3 Q. Now, a moment ago, I asked you whether you told the Defence that
4 you thought this was a mistake, and you said yes, on line 12 of page 31.
5 Now, when did you tell the Defence that you thought this order
6 was a mistake? Or was that "yes" just an acknowledgment of my -- of my
8 A. I don't understand.
9 Q. Okay. Let me repeat the question.
10 Did you tell the Defence whether you thought that this order of
11 General Cermak was a mistake or an error on his part? Did you tell that
12 to the Defence?
13 A. Well, as far as I remember, I don't think we discussed the matter
14 at all.
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic.
16 Maybe we could --
17 A. Teskeredzic [In English] My name is very difficult for other --
18 Q. Yes, let me call you doctor then again. Thank you, Doctor.
19 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps, Mr. President - that's easier to say - it's
20 time for a break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which gives you some time for training your
22 mouth musculature, Mr. Waespi.
23 We will have a break.
24 Could you give us any indication as to how much time you would
1 MR. WAESPI: Not that much. About half an hour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Half an hour. Then that opens the perspective of
3 finishing the -- concluding the testimony of this witness relatively
4 early today.
5 Mr. Kay, is the next witness already stand by.
6 MR. KAY: I think the next witness is on his way. He was being
7 brought this morning because the estimates were that this witness would
8 be a day. So the decision was made to bring him this morning rather than
9 have a potential stay overnight.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which has what consequence, that you have not
11 spoken to him yet?
12 MR. KAY: The consequence is, Your Honour, that we would finish
13 early today and start that witness tomorrow.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider that.
15 MR. KAY: Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.
20 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Mr. Teskeredzic, let's go to D765. I think you have seen the
22 document this morning. It's a request for temporary transfer of a few
23 people, including Mr. Andjelko Vuk, although, in English, his rank is
24 major. I think he was a lieutenant, wasn't he?
25 A. No, he was a major.
1 Q. Thank you. The names here, Vuk, Plemencic, Perkovic, your son,
2 Mr. Halas. Who suggested these names to -- to Mr. Cermak that they would
3 be suitable to -- to work for you?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Thank you, Doctor.
6 Let's move to another issue, and this is 65 ter 2136.
7 Now, here, we have a letter dated 27th August, and it's addressed
8 to the chief of the -- and I quote, "State Administration for the
9 Protection of Natural Resources and Cultural Heritage."
10 Perhaps you want to read the document quickly for yourself.
11 A. Yes, I've read it.
12 Q. Now, it mentions in paragraph 1, equipment specified which
13 apparently is in the possession of the chief of this institution. And
14 it's to be delivered to the Knin garrison command to you,
15 Mr. Teskeredzic.
16 Now, what kind of equipment was that, if you recall?
17 A. Yes, I do. This is the military post that I belonged to
18 previously. They borrowed to the -- the equipment to the state
19 administration, to Mr. Marijan Orlic. When I left the army, the
20 equipment was not returned. We remembered at that point that it should
21 not stay in the domain of the state administration; rather, that it
22 should be returned to the army. And this is the equipment, divers'
23 equipment that was needed to check whether at the Roski waterfall, out in
24 the field, there were any mines to be cleared.
25 Q. Did you eventually receive the missing equipment?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And do you remember whether General Cermak filed a report against
3 Mr. Madar [phoen] as he announced in his letter?
4 A. I don't remember that.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. WAESPI: I'd like to tender this document, Mr. President.
7 MR. KAY: No objection, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours. This document shall become
10 Exhibit P2651. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: P2651 is admitted into evidence.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Teskeredzic, you filed a number of reports to
15 Mr. Cermak. In a sense, that you reported about the work you did; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we have seen examples this morning so we don't need to go
19 into that any further.
20 And we also saw this morning in D1735 that General Cermak
21 proposed you and other members of your team to become a presidential
22 award. You told us that you did not get the award. Do you have any
23 knowledge why you didn't get the award?
24 A. I don't know. I didn't really think about it.
25 Q. Now, you said in your witness statement that you weren't
1 subordinated to Mr. Cermak. Is that still your position?
2 A. Yes. I cooperated with him, I assisted him as a volunteer in
3 attending to the conditions prevailing there, in order to enable the
4 return of civilians as soon as possible. I asked him to help me arrange
5 other individuals to arrive there so that we could deal with the matters
6 that were urgent at the time, like, for instance, clearing up someone's
7 driveway to their home, and such-like.
8 Q. Now, you have testified, and we have seen these documents,
9 including your statement, you were mobilized at the request of
10 General Cermak; you were mobilized into his unit, the garrison command;
11 you reported to him about your work; he provided equipment and even
12 personnel to you; team members received instructions by him or his
13 deputy. All of this suggests that you were, indeed, part of the garrison
14 command and subordinated to Mr. Cermak.
15 How do you respond to that?
16 A. Well, you see, a subordinate. His task was to normalise life,
17 and we helped in him one aspect of this work. Of course, I had to tell
18 him what it was that I was doing. It would have been absurd for me to
19 work there as a volunteer with others without him being aware of what it
20 is that we were doing. He, with his team, helped me and my associates
21 come together, and these were really people who were qualified for the
22 job. Some of them came directly from the units where they were
23 mobilized, others came back from retirement, others from their workplace
24 in the institute or the national park. We came together, and it was not
25 the sort of strict working drill or discipline or anything of the sort.
1 It was cooperation.
2 Q. In paragraph 7 of your witness statement you say that you don't
3 know what Mr. Cermak's duties were; is that correct?
4 A. Well, what the duties were. His task was to make the civilian
5 infrastructure operational, to have the electricity and water supply
6 running, to have the town cleared of mines, et cetera. I didn't have a
7 feeling that he was there to do anything else. He did receive
8 delegations that came to see him.
9 Q. But you don't really know what his formal authorities were over
10 other units or -- or other people. That's not something you could
11 testify about.
12 A. As far as I know, he didn't have any authorities over other
13 units, as far as I was able to see from my stay there. It was more of a
14 cooperation that he had with Pero Pasic, with the civilian population, he
15 had contacted with UNPROFOR. That's something I was able to see as well.
16 And that I believe that that was the direction in which his tasks tended
17 to go. He did not have command over the police or the units that passed
18 through there.
19 Q. Let's go to the fish farm, D1033.
20 You have seen the document this morning, and I'm interested in a
21 passage where you suggest, after visiting the farm, you suggest to
22 General Cermak to engage military police for a 24-hour watch, to do,
23 among other issues, to protect the fish.
24 A. Yes. My view was that we had to take care of that, but in -- as
25 far as I saw it, it was the military police and not Cermak who were
1 suppose to guard and secure an area that still had a military presence.
2 Q. Yes. The reference I'm interested in is on page 2 in both
3 versions, English and B/C/S, just after the listing of these 15 pools.
4 In paragraph 1, you see reference to the military police.
5 Now, did the military police show up? Did they protect the fish,
6 as you had suggested?
7 A. No. It wasn't the military police; it was Mr. Zdenko Roman who
8 rotated with Margus and Zvonko Modrusan. They took turns and stayed
10 Q. So Mr. Cermak, he denied your proposal to have military police
11 organised for this purpose?
12 A. Or he was unable to accommodate my request. I didn't think about
13 it. Although there wasn't that much danger there while -- when we first
14 came and cleared the area, what was left to us only was to maintain the
15 condition which the fish farm was, and the people were aware of it.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Teskeredzic. Let's go to a last issue; that's the
17 damage done to -- to Knin.
18 Now, you have a number of specialisations, professional ones.
19 You're an expert of oceanology; you are a scientist who studies fish
20 breeding; you are an ichthyologist - hopefully I pronounced that right.
21 These are all sciences related to marine sciences, marine biology. Is
22 that correct?
23 A. It has to do with the technology and biology of fish breeding and
24 the health of aquatic organisms.
25 Q. But you are certainly not an expert in assessing damage done by
1 artillery or mortar shells; is that correct?
2 A. I'm not an expert, but I can see what the damage is.
3 Q. Now, in page 6 of your witness statement, you say that six houses
4 were hit by shells. At least that's what you observed.
5 A. Yes, I toured the area.
6 MR. KAY: Paragraph 6.
7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's paragraph 6.
8 MR. KAY: Paragraph 6, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Paragraph 6, yes, that's clear.
10 MR. WAESPI:
11 Q. Yes, please continue.
12 A. We don't have it yet. I can't see paragraph 6.
13 Q. Yeah, the exhibit is D1732. And I can quote it:
14 "Knin was practically intact. According to my observation, six
15 houses had been hit by shells."
16 A. Can it be enlarged. I can't read it.
17 There ought to be a second part as well.
18 Q. Yes, once you have digested the first three lines, we will move
19 on to the next page in B/C/S.
20 A. Yes, and what is your question?
21 Q. You stand by that, that you only observed six houses damaged by
22 -- or hit by shells when you toured Knin.
23 A. Yes. This is an approximation. There may have been another one.
24 But I can still clearly describe where each of these houses was.
25 Q. Now, were you aware that a provisional UN assessment has listed
1 44 buildings as damaged by shelling? This is P64.
2 A. That is possible. I wasn't aware of it. What I found and what
3 is written here is the result of my observation of the terrain.
4 Q. So you accept that others might come to different observations.
5 A. They might have.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Waespi.
9 Mr. Kay.
10 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have no re-examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No re-examination.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: I may have a few questions for you, Mr. Teskeredzic.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE ORIE: You composed a team or a committee, in which Mr. Vuk
16 was included. We've heard about Mr. Vuk.
17 Mr. Gojevic -- when I say you, I meant to say that Mr. Cermak did
18 so. You were a member of that team.
19 Mr. Gojevic, do you know what his position was? It was Mr. Vuk
20 who was supposed to report, apart from you, Mr. Gojevic and Mr. Vrkic
21 were members. Do you remember that?
22 We have seen this on the screen. I think it is -- is it D763 or
23 is it D1020. Could the parties assist me.
24 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's D763.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could we have D763 on the screen.
1 MR. WAESPI: And I believe the witness gave, in paragraph 7, of
2 his witness statement an answer to your question, the last sentence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think he did yet, but ...
4 Yes, you see this document on the screen?
5 A. Yes, I can.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Colonel Marin Frkic, do you remember to whom
7 he was subordinated?
8 A. I believe -- well, I can't really remember. I know that
9 Mr. Gojevic was a deputy to Mr. Cermak. And for the other one, for
10 Mr. Frkic, I can't really remember.
11 JUDGE ORIE: But he was a colonel. But do you remember in what
12 unit he was or ...
13 A. No, I can't remember. It's been a long time ago. I couldn't
14 really even remember his name if it wasn't written here.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Gojevic, you remember that he was the
16 deputy of Mr. Cermak. Do you have any recollection as to whether
17 Mr. Frkic was also part of the garrison command, or was he an outsider?
18 A. Mr. Frkic? No, I can't remember that.
19 MR. KAY: May I help, Your Honour. D1023.
20 JUDGE ORIE: D1023.
21 MR. KAY: Dated 9th of August.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kay, for that.
23 You told us that you would receive requests for performing your
24 tasks. We've also seen that in your report, that you give a brief survey
25 of the performance of your task in de-mining, including military
2 Do you remember from whom you got the requests to inspect those
3 military facilities?
4 A. We received such requests from different military personnel that
5 would come there to take over the military depots so they would ask us to
6 come if there were no de-miners at the Split command post, then they
7 would ask us, or sometimes he would join them because they needed more
8 persons for the particular tasks.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Can you remember whether you reported to those
10 who made these requests to you, if not the garrison command?
11 A. No, we did not report to them.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you got a request from someone; for example, to
13 inspect military apartments. Let me take you to this example.
14 Do you remember from whom you got that request?
15 A. I really do not remember the details. People wanted to have
16 their accommodation. They wanted to make sure that they will be safe.
17 Different people would come and ask for our assistance, in order to make
18 sure that there was nothing there that could inflict them any harm.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you report on your work inspecting
20 military apartments. Military apartments occupied by whom?
21 A. I really don't know who lived there. We went out when called,
22 when this was arranged with the mine clearers from the Split area.
23 JUDGE ORIE: But you said people wanted their houses to be
24 inspected. Now, these military apartments, were they used by the troops
25 or the military personnel that had left?
1 A. I don't know that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: But you're reporting on having inspected quite a
3 number of military apartments. Is it your testimony that you did not
4 know whether these apartments were used by the Croatian military or by
5 the ARSK military?
6 A. Croatian military could not have used them, because they only
7 arrived at that time. Previously they were used by the army of Republika
8 Srpska Krajina.
9 JUDGE ORIE: So may I then take it that you did not receive a
10 request to inspect them by those who had lived in those apartments?
11 A. When people came, they came back. In the meantime, between 1991
12 and 1995, many military apartments who were previously used by officers
13 of the JNA who were Croats, they left, and after this period of time,
14 they came back. Now, obviously in the meantime, somebody else lived in
15 that apartment, probably also members of the military, but they were not
17 JUDGE ORIE: Which does not yet answer my question. My question
18 is: Whether you received these requests from those who lived in those
19 apartments or not. And you're telling us that people returned, and
20 someone else had lived in apartments that were owned by them or were
21 occupied by them previously.
22 Now, do you remember who asked you, requested you, instructed you
23 - whatever word you would use - to inspect those apartments?
24 A. We received the requests from people who wanted to move in, so
25 people who came back at the time. You probably know that at the time
1 many people were forced out of Banja Luka, for example. They came to
2 Knin, and they wanted to move into these apartments that used to be
3 military apartments. So even those people from Banja Luka asked us to do
4 that, because they wanted to move in.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any request or order to inspect
6 such apartments that came not from individuals but from persons with a
7 certain authority?
8 A. No, I'm not aware of any such order.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have D1048, I think it is, on the screen.
10 Have you had an opportunity to read it?
11 A. No, I don't think so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please take your time.
13 A. Yes, I have read it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, this is, apparently -- now, let me ask
15 you, have you seen such orders for inspecting or pyrotechnically
16 inspecting apartments which were owned by the Ministry of Defence of the
17 Republic of Croatia
18 A. No, I did not.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you are reporting that you did pyrotechnical
20 inspection of apartments. Could you explain to us what the -- if at all,
21 whether there's any relation between the work you did and the work which,
22 apparently, you see ordered by Mr. Cermak?
23 A. Yes. This task was issued to the 14th Engineering. They asked
24 us to go to Vitorog. He came by; he said, Are there any people who are
25 free at the moment? Yes, there are, so let us go there to inspect that
1 [realtime transcript read in error "there"].
2 There were also people who cleared the apartments. There were
3 quite a lot of problems there, because the electricity supply in Knin was
4 cut off. There were chambers full of meat which went rotten, and there
5 were quite a lot of problems in connection to that, cleaning of such cold
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I asked you what the relation was between your
8 work and this work. And then you said; they asked us to go to Vitorog.
9 He came by and said, Are there any people free at the moment. Yes, there
10 are, so let us go there to inspect there.
11 Now, who came by?
12 A. Mr. Jaricevic or another gentleman who was also there. There
13 were a couple of them who would come by and say, We need some help and
14 also people came by who wanted to move in such apartments. So the
15 requests came from different sides.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But now, were you involved in the implementation of
17 this order in any way?
18 A. Yes, indirectly because they would come by and ask us to carry
19 out certain inspections.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when I earlier asked you whether
21 apartments, by whom you were requested that, you said it was just
22 individuals who asked you. But apparently here it is not just a request
23 from individuals but you were involved in the performance of inspection
24 tasks in apartments which were ordered by authorities.
25 A. Well, the authorities there were made of military units, and they
1 sort of requested our assistance. We were not obliged to do that, but
2 since there were people who were able to carry out such inspections, we
3 did assist them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you ever receive a request from
5 Mr. Cermak which you said, No, I'm not going to perform the task you're
6 asking me to perform?
7 A. No, I never received such a request. He knew what our
8 compatibilities were, what it was that we were able to do. He did not
9 issue written orders to us because there was no need for that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No, that was not what I asked. Did you ever, when
11 Mr. Cermak requested something, I was not talking about orders, did you
12 ever say, No, we can't do it, or we do not want to do it?
13 A. I don't believe there were any such situations. He never
14 requested anything that we were not able to do.
15 JUDGE ORIE: So you finally met all the requests he addressed to
16 you. Is that ...
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement, in paragraph 6 you say something
19 about the destruction in the town of Drnis
20 the relevant portion.
21 After the part of the statement which deals with the six
22 buildings that had been hit by shells in the town of Knin you said: "For
23 the sake of comparison, I went to the neighbouring town of Drnis
24 Oklaj village where I established that between 1991 and 1995 all the
25 houses had been destroyed by the Republic of Serbian Krajina."
1 I would like to know exactly what you meant there. Did you mean
2 to say that all the houses were destroyed; or all the houses you saw
3 being destroyed were destroyed by the Republic of the Serbian Krajina?
4 Could you elaborate on that sentence.
5 A. Yes, I can.
6 Drnis and Oklaj are Croatian settlements and in 1991, when they
7 were occupied by the enemy forces everything was destroyed and burned
9 When I came I could see that this indeed happened back then in
10 1991 because over the three or four years, the vegetation started to grow
11 out of these destroyed buildings.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So no house was left intact in Drnis. Is that ...
13 A. Most of the houses. The impression was, as if everything was
14 destroyed. Possibly here and there, there was a house that was intact,
15 but most of the houses were destroyed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: In paragraph 18 of your statement, you say something
17 about a lady who had told you that: "... the leaving of the area and
18 going to Serbia
19 Did she give you any further details?
20 A. She did not only say this to me personally. I went there with a
21 team from my institute, some four or five years ago. We did some
22 research at the river Una near Donji Lapac, and personally I was
23 interested in this. She came back. She was president of the fishing
24 association there. And at the same time she worked at the Red Cross in
25 Donji Lapac. So I asked her, I believe her name was Zorica, and I asked
1 what happened at the time, and I described in detail what she told me.
2 As I said she didn't address only me personally, but there were four or
3 five of us from my team from the institute.
4 So she said that a group of people came and shouted, the Ustashas
5 are coming, they're going to slaughter everybody, so they moved towards
6 Banja Luka. In Banja Luka there were trucks waiting for them, and they
7 transported them to Belgrade
8 In Belgrade
9 them --
10 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Yes. You now apparently
11 arrive at the point that I'm interested in. Please continue.
12 A. And when they arrived, they wanted to move them to Kosovo. But
13 this is where they reacted and objected. This is what she told me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, the conclusion that it was planned and
15 organised therefore, but please correct me when I'm wrong, that
16 conclusion was drawn on the basis of a group of people coming and
17 shouting, The Ustashas are coming, they're going to slaughter everybody.
18 And then having moved to Banja Luka, trucks were waiting for them and to
19 transport them to Belgrade
20 Is there any other fact she told you which supports the
21 conclusion that it was all planned and organised?
22 A. Well, these were sufficient reasons on which I could base my
23 conclusion that everything was planned and organised.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You also said that she told you that
25 99 per cent of the people had left that area before the Croats returned
1 to the territory of the former Krajina.
2 Did she give you any further details as to when they left or
3 whether they returned ever after?
4 A. She did not mention any details, but people did come back. I
5 spoke to them. They were around. She was one of those who came back.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And she is Serb; is that what I --
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.
9 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need?
10 Mr. Kay, thank you very much for D1023 which places Mr. Frkic
11 clearly in the garrison command.
12 MR. KAY: Yes, thank you.
13 Re-examination by Mr. Kay:
14 Q. One matter arising from what His Honour asked you, and it
15 concerns the request that General Cermak made to you, and you said that
16 he never asked you anything that was unreasonable and you had no occasion
17 to -- not to follow any request.
18 Looking at it from other way, if had you refused any request by
19 Mr. Cermak, could he have disciplined you.
20 A. Well, in theory, yes. But there was simply no need for that. I
21 was a volunteer, so my status was much more liberal, so to say, than it
22 would have been if I was mobilized or part of the military establishment.
23 But I was a scientist, so they treated me in a different way, not so
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: There are no further questions for you,
2 Mr. Teskeredzic. Therefore, this concludes your testimony. I'd like to
3 thank you very much for coming this long way to The Hague and for having
4 answered the questions that were put to you by the parties and by the
5 Bench, and I would wish you -- I would like to wish you a safe return
6 home again.
7 Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Teskeredzic out of the courtroom.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to move into private session for a short
11 [Private session]
11 Page 23287 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 For the witness to appear tomorrow, what we have heard is an
8 estimate from the Defence as to the time needed for examination-in-chief
9 and we have TBDs which stands for to be determined for the other parties.
10 Since we may have a little scheduling problem tomorrow, which means that
11 we'd have to stop a little bit earlier than usual, not later than 1.30
13 could conclude the testimony of that witness in this lesser time
15 Mr. Kay, your assessment was.
16 MR. KAY: My assessment was half a session and my assessment from
17 what I've been seeing of cross-examination on the issues, that probably
18 we would be able to complete him in -- in time.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask the other Defence teams whether
20 they would support this estimate and this assessment given by Mr. Kay in
21 view of the TBDs still being there.
22 Mr. Misetic.
23 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr. President, I don't anticipate having more
24 than 20 minutes, if that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mikulicic.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: By all means, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Hedaraly.
4 MR. HEDARALY: Yes, Mr President, we would have a little over one
5 session, so I am confident that we will be able to be finished by 1.30
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then the parties are urged to see whether we
8 can conclude tomorrow's testimony by 1.30. Any other procedural matters
9 to be raised at this moment?
10 Mr. Misetic.
11 MR. MISETIC: Yes, Mr, President, just with respect to the
12 exhibits that we were discussing in private session, I offered the 65 ter
13 number just for clerical purposes. Do we wish do get a number assigned
14 now or --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I failed to ask the Registrar to assign exhibit
16 numbers. Or it would then be -- it's all be together now. It would be
17 one exhibit number, that is, all of the evidence which from, what I
18 understand, is a transcript of the Initial Appearance of Mr. Babic. It
19 is part of Mr. Babic's plea agreement. And it's transcript of Babic
20 testimony in the Milosevic case, both the portions tendered by the
21 Defence and by the Prosecution, and the transcript of the testimony of
22 Mr. Babic in the Martic case, and finally the transcript of the testimony
23 of Mr. Babic in the Krajisnik case.
24 MR. MISETIC: Yes, that is correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, all together under 1D2977.
1 MR. MISETIC: That's correct, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to 1D2977,
3 and it should be D number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document becomes
5 Exhibit D1736. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: D1736 is admitted into evidence.
7 Any other procedural matter?
8 If not, then we'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume
9 tomorrow, Tuesday, the 27th of October, 2009, 9.00, Courtroom I.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.05 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of
12 October, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.