Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 26252

 1                           Tuesday, 15 December 2009

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

10     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is case number IT-06-90-T,

11     the Prosecutor versus Gotovina, et al.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             The Gotovina Defence has asked an extension of time for

14     submissions which were due today.  Two days extension of time is granted.

15             Mr. Vurnek, I would like to remind you that you're still bound by

16     the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning of your

17     testimony.

18             Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to proceed?

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Please do so.

21                           WITNESS:  DRAGUTIN VURNEK [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

24        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vurnek.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 26253

 1        Q.   There are just a couple of general topic areas that I wanted to

 2     discuss as a result of cross-examination by the Prosecutor and questions

 3     by the Bench.

 4             The first area concerns artillery which is where we left off, and

 5     your statement D1896 -- and your statement and D1896 which was the war

 6     path.

 7             You had discussed that there was a reconnaissance group and that

 8     reconnaissance group was used to correct artillery fire on the first day

 9     of the operation.  Do you remember that testimony?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber what your role was

12     in that reconnaissance group on that first day and what kind of artillery

13     we're talking about.

14        A.   The role of the operative reconnaissance group was to detect and

15     pin-point the exact positions of enemy forces, their fortified positions,

16     to detect minefields and lay open a passage for their troops through the

17     mind fields.

18        Q.   Maybe I spoke too quickly.  I wanted to know your specific role

19     and what you role you had, if any, with regard to that group.

20        A.   At that point in time, I did not have a role to play in that

21     group, since I was injured.  When the commander of the group was killed,

22     I took over the command.

23        Q.   Now, the person -- you're familiar with what would need to be

24     done to correct artillery fire; and the second part of that question that

25     I asked initially was, what kind of artillery were we talking about on

Page 26254

 1     that first day, in terms of what would be corrected?  What kind of

 2     artillery fire are we talking about?

 3        A.   They are mortars.

 4        Q.   So we're not talking about any high-level Howitzers, or cannons

 5     from a distance; correct?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Are you familiar with what the specific person would do with

 8     respect to artillery fire and correcting it, this mortar fire that you

 9     were talking about, what kind of tools would this person have to correct

10     the fire?  Would he have maps, would he have -- what would he do?

11        A.   In order to correct the mortar battery fire with any precision,

12     it is necessary to have a topographical map and a compass.

13        Q.   Were those tools available to the person who was correcting the

14     artillery fire, to your recollection, on that day?

15        A.   Several persons from the group had both the maps of the area and

16     compasses.

17        Q.   Now, I'd like to move on to the issue of your interview and

18     statement, which is D1895.

19             Mr. Vurnek, did any investigator or lawyer at any time tell you

20     what you had to say in that statement?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   The statement that you ended up signing, were those words yours,

23     or were they someone else's words?

24        A.   Those were my words in answer to questions.

25        Q.   Were you influenced in any way by any investigator or attorney to

Page 26255

 1     make your statement a certain way?

 2        A.   Nobody.

 3        Q.   I'd like to move to the topic of photographs.  We spent a great

 4     deal of time on the issue of the black-and-white photographs that you saw

 5     before testifying, and I believe they were colour here in the courtroom.

 6             You were not in Gracac on the 9th of August when those photos

 7     were allegedly taken; is that correct?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Did anyone from the Markac Defence at any time ask you anything

10     about those photos other than to ask you what your thoughts were as to

11     what the photos depicted?

12        A.   I was asked to tell what the photographs stood for, nothing else.

13        Q.   Did anyone from the Markac Defence tell you what any other

14     witness may have testified to regarding those photos?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   I'd like to move to the questions that the Prosecutor asked about

17     two exhibits, which were statements given by Mr. Vanderostyne and

18     Mr. Steenbergen.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Those are P321 and P516.  They don't necessarily

20     need to be up on the screen.

21        Q.   But in P321 --

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I suppose I will have them up because I want to

23     make sure that everything is read correctly and the Court can see that.

24             If we can go to P321, please, page 6 of 14, paragraph 18 and 19.

25        Q.   You were shown an article by Mr. Vanderostyne and your attention

Page 26256

 1     was drawn to portions of his statement, Mr. Vurnek.  I'd like to show you

 2     paragraphs 18 and 19 of Mr. Vanderostyne's statement, and I'll read them,

 3     part of them anyway, to save time.

 4             Paragraph 18 says:

 5             "We then came in Otocac.  I can see from my notes that my main

 6     focus was on the impact of the war.  I saw all kinds of traces of

 7     demolition/firing, houses blown up, traces of artillery shelling, traces

 8     of war such as fresh destruction.  In my notes, I stated that in every

 9     city in every village, and in every single hamlet I saw that Croatian

10     soldiers had settled.  You could tell that it was the end of the

11     offensive.  The soldiers were walking around in groups or sitting

12     together.  They were not in aggressive positions.  I saw no Serb

13     soldiers.  My general perception was that the area was totally empty of

14     Serbs."

15             Now, before Operation Storm, Mr. Vurnek, are you familiar as to

16     whether or not Otocac was entirely in Croatian hands?

17        A.   I can't say anything with any certainty.

18        Q.   In paragraph 19, it continued:  "People told me that Otocac had

19     been under fire on Saturday."

20             Could you tell the Chamber whether or not that fire was fire from

21     Serb positions?  Saturday, being the second day of Operation Storm.

22        A.   I don't know.  I can't answer the question.

23        Q.   Let's move on to the statement of Mr. Steenbergen, P516,

24     paragraph 45.

25             Mr. Vurnek, this is a statement on paragraph 45, excuse me, in

Page 26257

 1     which Mr. Vanderostyne [sic] states:  "I first visited Gracac on

 2     6th August."

 3             Now you were, Mr. Vurnek, in Gracac on the 6th of August;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   He further states in this paragraph:

 7             "We observed burned houses and houses that were still burning.

 8     It was difficult to distinguish between damage caused by shelling and

 9     damage caused by arson.  We did not conduct any crater analysis at this

10     time, but we could clearly see craters from shelling in various parts all

11     over the town - most of the streets had some form of shelling damage.

12     For example, there were roughly 10 to 20 craters observed in the area of

13     the cross-roads I have marked with D on the map."

14             Now, the first question I wanted to ask you is: With respect to

15     your recollection on the 6th of August, other than the house that you saw

16     when you entered Gracac, do you recall any burnt houses or houses that

17     were still burning in Gracac itself, while you were in Gracac?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Did you see any craters from shelling in various parts all over

20     the town, as Mr. Vanderostyne stated -- or Mr. Steenbergen states in his

21     statement?

22        A.   No.  I saw several craters at the cross-roads just outside of the

23     town.  As for the town itself, I don't recall there being any.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  If we could go to paragraph 51, please, which is

25     the next page.

Page 26258

 1        Q.   Paragraph 51 -- on the Croatian version, Mr. Vurnek, it will go

 2     from the first to the second page, or to the next page but I will just

 3     start at the beginning.

 4             On paragraph 51 the witness says in his statement:

 5             "I have been shown an UNMO HQ SS daily sitrep dated 6th August,

 6     1995, and timed at 2030 hours which refers to HV troops looting empty

 7     houses in Gracac and the fact that the UNMO office in Gracac was burned

 8     to the ground.  Later in this sitrep it is reported that UNMO team met

 9     with the commander of HV special forces and were allowed to patrol in

10     Gracac.  Whilst patrolling in Gracac, UNMO Team Gracac observed HV troops

11     looting and that all houses in Gracac are partially destroyed and five of

12     the houses are completely destroyed."

13             I wanted to ask you, Mr. Vurnek, based on your observations on

14     the 6th of August, 1995, when you were in Gracac itself, did you observe

15     any troops of any kind - whether they were special police troops,

16     HV troops - looting?

17        A.   I didn't observe anyone looting any property in Gracac.

18        Q.   Now, later in the last sentence this witness says:  "... all the

19     houses in Gracac are partially destroyed ..."

20             Did you observe any of that?

21        A.   On the first day of my testimony, I said that I saw one house on

22     the edge of Gracac having been destroyed, burnt.  I didn't see any other

23     destruction, save for the fact that the whole town was in a state of

24     neglect.

25        Q.   Now, there is no definition of what "partially destroyed" is, but

Page 26259

 1     in your observation, in Gracac, did any house that you saw appear to you

 2     to be in any state of destruction?

 3        A.   I don't recall that.  Except for that one house, I don't recall

 4     others being destroyed.

 5        Q.   Now, I'd like to go, please, to D443.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. -- you started saying that there's no definition

 7     of "partial destruction," and the witness said at the end that he doesn't

 8     have any recollection of destroyed houses which may create some

 9     confusion.

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sure, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see any houses which were -- which had,

12     well, let's say, serious or substantial damage without being destroyed?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Except for the house I mentioned,

14     no.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

16             Please proceed.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             Please pull up D433.

19             Sorry.  443.  If I said 433, I'm sorry.

20             That's not it.  It was right the first time.  I mis-numbered it

21     in my notes.  It's D433.  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22        Q.   Mr. Vurnek, this is a map which has been marked and admitted as

23     evidence of Gracac and the surrounding areas with a legend marking

24     various points on the map.

25             Now, with the assistance of the usher, I would like you to show

Page 26260

 1     us where your unit entered the road going from the upper left of the map

 2     down to Gracac.

 3             Before do you that, is that the road from Gracac to Gospic?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Please mark in blue where your unit came upon that road and then

 6     from that point you went into Gracac.

 7             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Could we please have the usher's --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a very imprecise map.  I

 9     can only give you an approximation --

10             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

11        Q.   That's fine.

12        A.   [Previous translation continues]... of the route of advancement.

13        Q.   All I want for you -- from you, Mr. Vurnek, is an approximation

14     of where we -- there we go.

15             So essentially you were right very close by to Sveti Rok.

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   And from that point where the tip of your arrow is your unit

18     advanced on that road all the way to Gracac on the 5th of August;

19     correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   Now, did you -- how did you get into Gracac?  Was that by -- on

22     foot?

23        A.   I, myself, yes, went there on foot.

24        Q.   Did you along the road as you went to Gracac.  Along that road?

25        A.   Along the road.

Page 26261

 1             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would like to please show the

 2     witness a short video of that route taken on the 5th of August.  Oh, can

 3     we please tender this document with the map, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Say 5th of August, may I take it 1995?

 5             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.  Before we do that, before we

 6     show the video, Your Honour, may I please tender the map with the marking

 7     by the witness.

 8             MS. DE LANDRI:  No objection, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this becomes Exhibit D1899.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1899 is admitted into evidence.

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  There is some brief dialogue on this.  The booth

14     has been provided with copies, Your Honour, it's 65 ter 3D00140.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Which route do we -- will be shown?

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  From Sveti Rok to Gracac.  We could do it

17     through Sanction.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

20        Q.   Mr. Vurnek, I just want you to watch this video, and then I will

21     ask you some questions about it.  It's very short.  After it's done

22     playing.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Please play the video.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The tank looks as if it has been

Page 26262

 1     used as fire for a barbecue.

 2             "Sveti Rok.

 3             "Sempre Gracac.  Here we go.  This could be Ricice, which was

 4     also a Croatian village.

 5             "As soon as you see everything is burnt, you know that it is our

 6     village.  Clear.  It's been burnt long ago.

 7             "This is all really been torched.

 8             "So where is now that fucking UNPROFOR to ask those ...

 9     [inaudible] ...

10             "On a bicycle, right?

11             "This is the UNPROFOR base.

12             "Is this where we're going to go home through?

13             "Pub.

14             "Joco cafe.

15             "Perhaps we should call home."

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:

17        Q.   Mr. Vurnek, you saw, obviously it wasn't the whole route from

18     Sveti Rok to Gracac, but was that the route that you had mostly walked on

19     the way to Gracac?

20        A.   That's correct.

21        Q.   Is that --

22        A.   That's the road we took.

23        Q.   Does that video -- do you recall seeing those homes on either

24     side of the road that were shown, many of which, or most of which look

25     like they had been significantly or completely destroyed?

Page 26263

 1        A.   I saw the houses.

 2        Q.   And what did those houses appear to you to be in terms of state

 3     of disrepair?  Recently destroyed, currently destroyed?  Based on your

 4     recollection of walking along that road.

 5        A.   I wasn't thinking it.  We knew that those houses belonged to the

 6     Croats who had lived there before the war which had been destroyed in the

 7     early 1990s by the Serb army.

 8        Q.   So essentially the route that you took from Sveti Rok all the way

 9     through to Gracac, the destruction that you saw was destruction from long

10     ago?

11        A.   Neither our army nor police engaged in any fighting in that area.

12     There was no fighting in the area.

13        Q.   Okay.  I understand that.  But my -- my question to you,

14     Mr. Vurnek, was essentially the route that you took from Sveti Rok all

15     the way to Gracac, the destruction that you saw was destruction from long

16     ago; is that correct?

17        A.   Correct.  There was vegetation and trees growing out of the

18     houses.  You could tell that they had been destroyed several years back.

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this video.

20             MS. DE LANDRI:  Could I ask the witness a few questions about the

21     video, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I take that in further cross -- or would you before

23     you make up your mind as far as objections are concerned?

24             MS. DE LANDRI:  Well, I'm sure any foundation has been laid for

25     the admission of it.  And I can do it at the Court's preference.  I can

Page 26264

 1     ask the questions in further examination.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps we mark it identification and then see

 3     whether there is any objection at the very end.

 4             Mr. Misetic.

 5             MR. MISETIC:  Yes, if we could also check, I have a recollection

 6     of this video having been ... I see, I guess it was marked but not

 7     admitted, so I take it back.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have to -- but if it was marked, any

 9     recollection as what number was there?  So that we also can verify why it

10     was not ...

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I believe it was D294, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D294.  We will look further into the matter.

13             You can put further questions to the witness in recross.

14             Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, those are all the questions I have.

16     Thank you.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Those are all the questions.  Well, then, that

18     moment has come very quickly.

19             Mr. Vurnek, you will further be examined by Ms. De Landri.

20             Please proceed.

21             MS. DE LANDRI:  Just a few questions about this video.

22                           Further cross-examination by Ms. De Landri:

23        Q.   Have you seen it before today?

24        A.   No, never.

25        Q.   Do you have any information about how it was made?

Page 26265

 1        A.   I don't know.

 2        Q.   Do you know who was involved in making the video?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   So today is the first time that you've seen it?

 5        A.   The first time.

 6        Q.   And you can't identify any -- any persons who were involved in

 7     this video, in making the video?

 8        A.   I didn't see anyone making it or recording it.  You can re-wind,

 9     perhaps I can watch it again if you want me to.

10        Q.   No.  What I'm trying to ascertain is aside from your recollection

11     of the events of August 5th, does the video add anything to your

12     recollection of those events?

13        A.   No.  It is a fact, however, that this does refresh my memory

14     somewhat, because a lot of time has elapsed between now and then.

15             MS. DE LANDRI:  Your Honour, I don't have any further questions

16     for the witness.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, just for the benefit of the parties,

19     this was discussed at page 4827, beginning at line 20, on the transcript.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you happen to a have a date and witness for me,

21     Mr. Misetic, that would help?  Because only for the later I have the page

22     numbering and the...

23             MR. MISETIC:  I have -- the date is the 11th June, 2008.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  That's sufficient.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, if I may further assist, there was

Page 26266

 1     also a discussion and it was tendered on the 2nd of June at transcript

 2     reference 4067, and the issue was that when it was put to the witness who

 3     testified then, Mr. Vanderostyne, Mr. Vanderostyne could not recognise

 4     any of these.  So I think for the sake of completeness, the reference

 5     that Mr. Misetic gave, in combination with the one I just gave, will give

 6     the Chamber the full picture of that video and what the issues were when

 7     it was tendered and then not admitted by the Chamber.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just re-read what was said on

 9     page 4827.

10             So at the time Mr. Vanderostyne, he couldn't say anything about

11     the video.  He was not familiar in any way.  This witness -- but,

12     Ms. De Landri, first of all, does -- is there any objection?  Let's have

13     that clear to start with.

14             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And what the objection exactly?

16             MS. MAHINDARATNE:  There is no foundation for it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what is no foundation?  What do you mean by

18     "foundation"?  That we do not know who made it?

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  Well, that's one of the objections.  And the

20     witness can testify from his personal recollection of those events.  He

21     has a personal recollection of the events of August 5th and --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  If someone would show me the video of my

23     native town, even without knowing who made it, isn't it true that I could

24     recognise certain features, and that in saying nothing was -- this is how

25     it looked like, and then if see it, I could say, yes, that's -- that's

Page 26267

 1     not only a description of what it looked like but that is the picture of

 2     what it looked like.  I recognise that.

 3             Would that be insufficient for admission?

 4             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes.  The evidence would be your recollection and

 5     your testimony about the recollection.  But not the picture.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But if ... if my testimony is that what I see now is

 7     what I described before and what I recognise as what -- what was in my

 8     native town, would you then withhold from the trier of fact that picture?

 9             MS. DE LANDRI:  Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And on what basis?

11             MS. DE LANDRI:  If there were insufficient information, indeed,

12     no information about how the video was obtained, how it was made, the

13     circumstances under which it was made, and the witness and this witness

14     and another witness who came before the Chamber could not authenticate

15     it, then I'd say it is not admissible.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Under what Rule in this Tribunal?

17             MS. DE LANDRI:  Rule 89.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Any case law in respect --

19             MS. DE LANDRI:  I would have to check into that, Your Honour, but

20     I would be happy to do so.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further response in relation to this objection?

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, the only thing I would say is that

25     the witness stated that this was the route that he took.  He walked the

Page 26268

 1     route.  The photographs helped his recollection as to what he talked

 2     about.  There was evidence put to the witness in his cross-examination

 3     that the Croats had destroyed everything on each side of the road from

 4     Gospic to Gracac, and his testimony and the video serve to counteract

 5     that testimony.

 6             So I believe that the witness by looking at the video, and

 7     describing what he -- and commenting on the video confirms essentially

 8     what his testimony was.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

10             MR. MISETIC:  We would agree, Mr. President, there is -- the

11     witness has laid foundation.  I think under the rules of the Tribunal it

12     is admissible, and even under common law if a witness testifies in Court

13     that something fairly and accurately depicts what his recollection was,

14     it would be admissible even in common law.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I learned that the common law doesn't exist.

16     That is one thing that is for sure.  So in your common law, it would be

17     admissible; in your common law, it would not be admissible,

18     Ms. De Landri.  Yes, yes.

19             Your common law, Mr. Kay?

20             MR. KAY:  It would certainly be admissible, and I have got

21     nothing further to add to the very eloquent arguments already expressed.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

23             The Chamber will consider the matter.  We will compare our common

24     laws and our civil laws in the case law of the Tribunal.

25             Mr. Vurnek, in respect of this matter, have you travelled that

Page 26269

 1     route often?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  More than at that one occasion?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  How often?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't say.  Several times, I

 7     believe.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you recognise the overall picture, the

 9     general impression, or did you recognise specific houses or specific

10     places when you saw it?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, I recognised

12     the route.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, may I add just one question to what

15     you had said regarding what was seen in the video by Mr. Vurnek?  It

16     might enhance the --

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, but I was focussing not on -- of course, we can

18     see that sometimes you see this is the direction to Gracac.  That is --

19     we have seen that as well.  But what I wanted to know is when looking at

20     houses on portions of the video where there's not included a traffic

21     sign, whether he there recognised the overall picture or whether he

22     recognised specific houses, specific villages.  That was my question.

23             And that's the way you understood it, I take it, Mr. Vurnek?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  That must be the

25     same road.

Page 26270

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I asked whether that's how you understood my

 2     question, but ...

 3             Any further questions in relation to this.

 4             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, just one.

 5        Q.   Mr. Vurnek, there was a comment in the video about what appeared

 6     to be the UN base.  Do you recall that UN base being on the side of the

 7     road, as it was depicted in the video?

 8        A.   I do.

 9             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's all, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  My recollection on whether we have already in

11     evidence where that exactly was, I think it was marked on one of these

12     maps with A2, it's --

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour, I can -- I know the name of

14     the place.  We can ask the witness if he knew where it was located.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if he knows the name --

16                           Questioned by the Court:

17              JUDGE ORIE:  If you could tell us the name of that place, that

18     would certainly assist us in later evaluating the evidence.

19             Mr. Vurnek.

20        A.   The UN base was in Gracac, on the outskirts of Gracac to one's

21     left side.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One other question.  You said you saw one

23     house burning close to where there was a weapon depot.  Has the finding

24     this weapons depot, has that been reported?  Is there any document in

25     which you say, Look there, there are the weapons to be found, or ... any

Page 26271

 1     reporting on paper for that?

 2        A.   I am not certain.  I think it exists.  In any case, I reported

 3     that to my commander via my hand-held radio.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any recollection exactly where that

 5     house was that you saw being on fire?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I remember it was in the immediate vicinity of the

 7     base we saw on the footage, perhaps a few hundred metres away.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  But would you be able to identify it on a map?

 9        A.   Approximately.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we then have the map?  I have forgotten the

11     number.  But we saw recently the map, the one marked with the cross-roads

12     marked on it.

13             Mr. Kuzmanovic, could you assist me.

14             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'll look for it, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, that's not the one that we saw

17     today; correct?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I think it's the one we saw yesterday, where

19     the various places in Gracac were marked.  Or the map underlying that

20     marked map without any markings would be good as well.

21             Mr. Waespi.

22             MR. WAESPI:  I think P536.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  P536.  Let's have a look that and see whether that

24     helps.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I believe that is the one Mr. Waespi used in

Page 26272

 1     cross-examination of another witness.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             Could we have P536 on the screen.

 4             Mr. Vurnek, on this map, could you identify where, approximately,

 5     you saw the house burning?

 6        A.   Your Honour, I cannot be completely certain, but I think it was

 7     somewhere around this part.  I believe so.

 8             In any case, I cannot be certain.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I think, as a matter of fact, that you started

10     marking.  Is that -- is it true that you --

11        A.   I drew a circle.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

13        A.   It is only conditional, as I said.  Cannot be completely precise

14     on this.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You drew a circle.  Could you make it a clear

16     cross and preferably in red, I think, was the --

17             Madam Usher, could you assist the witness in -- with marking.

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, I believe the official Defence

19     colour is blue.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Oh, blue, then nevertheless, I'd like to --

21             Could you put a thick cross, the place you marked, because there

22     were earlier markings on this map.  And could you add a letter X next to

23     that.

24        A.   Your Honour, to repeat, this is approximately the location that I

25     saw it, as far as I can remember.  It was on the south side of the road,

Page 26273

 1     where the house was that was in flames.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you for that marking.

 3             I have no further questions.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we make this a Defence exhibit

 7     because it just clarifies part of the -- of the answers given in-chief.

 8             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's fine, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The number, Mr. Registrar, would be ...

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document becomes

11     Exhibit D1900.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D1900 is admitted into evidence.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  It appears that there are no further questions for

15     the witness.

16             Mr. Vurnek, this concludes your testimony.  I would like thank

17     you very much for coming to The Hague.  It's a long way from where you

18     live, for having answered all the questions that were put to you,

19     questions by the parties, questions by the Bench, and I wish you a safe

20     return home again.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I would like to move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 26274











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Page 26276

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15                           [Closed session]

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Page 26277











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Page 26291

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16                           [Open session]

17                           --- On resuming at 11.16 a.m.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has considered the application for

19     protective measures.  The Chamber has decided that we will hear the

20     witness of Witness MM-025 in closed session.  Reasons to follow.

21             In view of the time, if at all possible, the Chamber would want

22     to see whether we can conclude with this witness today.  And I especially

23     draw the attention of the parties to the fact that what is already in the

24     written statement, of course, now and then you need to give a bit of

25     context, but, then, of course, the Chamber is fully aware of that, and

Page 26292

 1     that needs not to be repeated only if there is a clear need for context.

 2             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'm hoping that I will

 3     get done in a session.  In light of the difficulties that the witness

 4     had, I'm going to do my best to do that so ...

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then we turn into closed session.

 6             It's a pity for the audience.  They just arrived, but ...

 7                           [Closed session]

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Page 26293











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12                           [Open session]

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Then, of course, the curtains should be

16     open.  If I could seek the assistance, the joint assistance, this is a

17     joint enterprise.

18             We'll adjourn for the day, and we will resume tomorrow, 16th of

19     December, 9.00, Courtroom III.

20                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

22                           December, 2009, at 9.00 a.m.