Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28054

 1                           Wednesday, 14 April 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8             Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to everyone in and

 9     around the courtroom.

10             This is case number IT-06-90-T, the Prosecutor versus

11     Gotovina et al.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13             I'd like to put briefly a few matters on the record, and

14     Madam Usher could already seek to find the witness to be escorted into

15     the courtroom.  I would like to put the following things on the record as

16     regards to the Chamber witnesses 4 through 7.

17             On the 26th of February of this year, the Chamber contacted

18     Chamber Witness 7 and Chamber Witness 6 about their appearing as

19     witnesses in these proceedings.

20             On the 3rd of March, 2010, the Chamber granted the Prosecution's

21     request to send requests for assistance to Croatia in respect of Chamber

22     Witness 7 and Chamber Witness 6.

23             On the 1st of April, 2010, the Chamber informed the parties that

24     Chamber Witness 4 and Chamber Witness 5 have been contacted.  The Chamber

25     further informed the parties that the Prosecution may, should it so

Page 28055

 1     choose, send requests for assistance with regard to Chamber Witness 4 and

 2     Chamber Witness 5.

 3             On the 29th of March, 2010 --

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  I apologise for a second.  I will -- I apologise for

 6     a second.  I have to finish just a few lines, Witness, and then I'll be

 7     with you.  You can remain seated for a second.

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             Witness, thank you for your patience.

17             Before you give evidence, the Rules require that you make a

18     solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

19     nothing but the truth.  May I invite you to make that solemn declaration,

20     of which the text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  STJEPAN ZINIC

24                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Please be seated.

Page 28056

 1             And I inform the parties that LiveNote had to be rebooted two

 2     times already today, and most likely it will be fixed in approximately

 3     10 minutes from now.  If it causes you any insurmountable problems not to

 4     be able to scroll up and down, then please inform the Chamber.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  It is fixed on our screens, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  It is fixed on your screens, yes.  The Prosecution

 7     has an advantageous position.

 8             Witness, I again apologise for dealing with other matters rather

 9     than with your testimony, but we had some technical problems.

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber was informed that you do not seek any

12     protective measures.  Is that correct?

13        A.   It is.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That means that you'll testify publicly and that

15     we'll call you by your own name.

16             Perhaps I first ask you to state your full name for the record.

17        A.   My name is Stjepan Zinic.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Zinic, before we continue, I'd like

19     to inform you about the following.

20             This Chamber is aware that there's an ongoing investigation in

21     Croatia about the events in Grubori.  The Chamber is also aware that you

22     have given statements, but apparently the statements were taken from you

23     as a witness.  The Chamber is not aware of you being a suspect.  Is that

24     a correct understanding of your position in the Croatian proceedings?

25        A.   I appear as a witness.

Page 28057

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Nevertheless, Mr. Zinic, it appears to the Chamber,

 2     on the basis of evidence we have received until now, that you most likely

 3     have been involved in at least the operation on the 25th of August near

 4     to the village of Grubori.  That is the reason why I would like to inform

 5     you that if any of the questions that will be asked would -- where you

 6     would expect that answering the question in accordance with the truth

 7     might incriminate yourself, then you may object to answering such a

 8     question.  Is that clear to you?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you sought any legal advice on this matter?

11        A.   I have not.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you like to seek advice on what that means,

13     your right not to incriminate yourself, or is it perfectly clear to you?

14        A.   There is no need.  I believe it is clear.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  If at any moment you think that you should not

16     answer a question because of your right not to incriminate yourself, you

17     may address me before you answer the question, and then we'll further

18     deal with that matter.

19             In view of the fact that you are not seeking any further legal

20     advice on the matter and that matters apparently are clear to you, I'd

21     like to continue with the examination.

22             Mr. Zinic, could you please state your rank, and could you tell

23     us to what unit you belonged in August 1995?

24        A.   At the time, I was a special training instructor.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And your unit was?

Page 28058

 1        A.   The Anti-Terrorist Unit of Lucko.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And that unit was part of?

 3        A.   Do you mean generally speaking or as part of the operation which

 4     took place at the time?

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  In general terms.  Would that be a unit of the

 6     special police?

 7        A.   Yes, it was a special police unit of the Croatian Ministry of the

 8     Interior.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could you tell us in which operations your

10     unit was involved in late August 1995?

11        A.   It took part in Operation Storm and the mopping-up operations

12     during the Obruc-Oluja operation in the area of Knin and Petrova Gora.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Could I take you to the 25th of August.  Do

14     you remember what operation was conducted at that date?

15        A.   On that date, the unit was tasked with providing security in the

16     general area of Knin so that the Freedom Train could pass through.

17     During the period of two days, we were also carrying out mopping-up

18     actions and providing security in the area of Knin as well as Plavno and

19     in the area of Ramljani.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  The Plavno operation, was that on the 25th?

21        A.   Yes, on the 25th.  That was the first day.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what your role was in that

23     operation?  What function did you perform?

24        A.   I took part in that operation, and I was in charge of a group

25     which was assigned a certain axis, although I do not recall the exact

Page 28059

 1     locations anymore.  In any case, it was in the area of Plavno.  We were

 2     supposed to mop up terrain and provide security.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zinic, how many groups participated in this

 4     operation?

 5        A.   I think there were four groups.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us, when you performed this

 7     operation, what did your group encounter, what did your group experience?

 8        A.   Specifically, my group found nothing.  Nothing happened outside

 9     the regular tasks when we went through the area.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you aware of any incidents which -- not

11     involving your group, any of the other groups?

12        A.   I heard of certain events which stood out as something that would

13     not have otherwise taken place during such regular operations.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you heard of certain events.  Could you

15     tell us, did you hear that on the 25th of August or did you hear that at

16     any later stage?

17        A.   I heard it at a later stage.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  When the operation took place, did you hear any

19     gun-fire?

20        A.   It is difficult to recall that period, since it's been a while

21     and I took part in many actions.  However, I seem to recall some

22     shooting.  Such shootings do take place in the course of such tasks being

23     executed.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And as far as your recollection goes, do you have

25     any recollection of what kind of shooting you may have heard?  I'm

Page 28060

 1     specifically interested in whether you could identify any type of

 2     weaponry in this context.

 3        A.   It is difficult to say precisely, in terms of what types of

 4     weapons.  In any case, there was shooting from infantry weapons,

 5     automatic weapons.  There may have been some explosions, too, but I am

 6     not certain of that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as this shooting is concerned, was that

 8     sporadic or was that constant or ...?

 9        A.   It is difficult for me to say what the intensity of it was.

10     However, since it seems to have occurred on a number of occasions and

11     from different directions, I would say that it was of that nature.

12     Anything more than that is very difficult for me to say.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Please tell me if you don't remember, but any

14     recollection of any Zoljas, for example, which make quite a different

15     sound, or is that not the type of weapons you remember to have heard?

16        A.   Believe me when I say that it is very difficult for me to tell

17     you if I did hear such a thing or not at the time.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I already invited you to tell me if you don't

19     remember.  That's fair.

20             Now, you've heard some shooting.  You did not encounter any

21     specific incident.  You heard, at a later stage, about incidents

22     encountered or in which other groups may have been engaged.  Could you

23     tell us, at the end of the operation, did your group meet at any point

24     with the other groups?

25        A.   Well, yes.  When the task was completed, in my opinion, all the

Page 28061

 1     groups assembled near the final target or the final line we were supposed

 2     to reach because we were all supposed to go on leave.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you supposed to go on leave that day, after the

 4     operation would have been concluded?

 5        A.   Well, not necessarily on leave, as such, but more to rest.  We

 6     were supposed to go to a location to rest and await new tasks.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, do you remember the place?  As you said,

 8     final target, I think you mentioned it, the final target or the final

 9     line you were supposed to reach, would you meet in a village, would you

10     meet in the fields?  Where was that?

11        A.   I think -- well, I can't recall the name of the location, but

12     there seemed to be a number of houses there.  It was already dusk by the

13     time we arrived.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember what time it was?

15        A.   It's difficult to say.  It was before nightfall, perhaps after

16     8.00 p.m.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you don't remember the name of the

18     location, but you said there seemed to be a number of houses.  Was it in

19     such -- could I call it the hamlet?  Is that where you met with the other

20     groups?

21        A.   Yes, more or less a hamlet of sorts.  I do recall that we crossed

22     railroad tracks, and having reached a hamlet, we came upon an asphalt

23     road.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's where you met with the other groups?

25        A.   Yes, all of the groups assembled there.

Page 28062

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that in that hamlet or near to that hamlet?

 2        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Where you met, was that in that hamlet, that group

 4     of houses, or was it nearby or at the edge of it?  Could you ...

 5        A.   I seem to recall that we met up on the top of a hill.  That's

 6     where the groups met and then went down towards the settlement.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that the first settlement or hamlet or small

 8     village that you entered that day or had there been others?

 9        A.   On that day, it was the first settlement I entered.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, during this operation, were any prisoners

11     taken?

12        A.   As far as I know, there weren't any.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  And you talked about the hamlet.  Did you see any

14     houses on fire at any time, whether in that hamlet or at any other time

15     during the operation?

16        A.   I didn't see any.  But to the right of where I was, I saw a drill

17     or a stack of smoke which may have come from a building that was on fire.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  If you didn't see what was burning, could it have

19     been more houses on fire, or more buildings on fire, I should say?

20        A.   No, I didn't see it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but you say you saw a drill or a stack of smoke

22     which may have come from a building, you said.  Could it have been from

23     more than one building?

24        A.   Well, you see, the visibility was rather poor.  I cannot

25     determine what the distance was between me and the smoke.  I couldn't see

Page 28063

 1     a house or houses burning, but it was my assessment that it may have been

 2     the result of something being set on fire.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you see that stack of smoke close to the

 4     settlement, to the hamlet, the groups of houses you earlier described?

 5        A.   No, no.  That was much earlier, much before we went down to the

 6     settlement when we met up.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So you saw this smoke.  At a later stage, you met

 8     with the others at the top of a hill.  And then after you had met with

 9     them, you saw then this hamlet or village, group of houses you described?

10        A.   Well, no.  It was, let's say, at the very beginning of that

11     operation or task.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  What was at the very beginning; the smoke you saw?

13        A.   Well, one could hear shooting, after which one could see smoke.

14     There wasn't a lot of smoke.  There was some smoke, as it seemed to me.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And that was, you said, rather at the beginning of

16     the operation; is that how I have to understand it?

17        A.   In my view, it happened during the first hour, let's say.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  And the operation started at what time?

19        A.   I think sometime in the morning.  I think between 9.00 and 10.00.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  During the operation, did you have any radio contact

21     with the other groups or with the leader of the operation?

22        A.   Well, I had a Motorola.  On a number of occasions, I attempted to

23     contact the others.  However, at certain points in time it was impossible

24     to establish radio communication.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And at other moments, you were able to establish

Page 28064

 1     radio communication?

 2        A.   It all depended on the lie of the land.  Sometimes one could talk

 3     to another, but it all depended, let's say, on whether I and my

 4     collocutor were closer at that point.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  But on that day, therefore, I understand you had

 6     some radio communication, although at some times it was impossible.  Is

 7     that correctly understood?

 8        A.   Yes, that is so.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us about the content of that radio

10     communication?  Was it with other group leaders, was it with the leader

11     of the operation?

12        A.   Well, for the most part with other groups.  I mean, during the

13     action, I could not establish contact.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  You could not establish contact with whom; with the

15     operation leader or --

16        A.   That's right, the operation leader.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, as far as the content of your communication

18     with the other group leaders is concerned, did you ever discuss the

19     incidents or about the shooting you had heard?

20        A.   Well, at one point in time I tried to establish contact and to

21     check what was going on, but I didn't manage at that moment.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, this Chamber has seen or has access to

23     statements in which other group leaders state that they have heard you,

24     in communication with another group leader, asking what had happened, and

25     they also stated what the answer was, which suggests that there was

Page 28065

 1     communication.

 2        A.   Well, I've already said that at some moments, one could talk, and

 3     at others, one could not talk.  So perhaps I did talk to someone at some

 4     point in time, but I cannot remember.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, your earlier answer was that you tried to

 6     get in touch -- that you tried to establish contact and to check what was

 7     going on, but you did not manage; whereas the statement I just put to you

 8     is saying that you asked what happened and that you got an answer, the

 9     answer being that the person you were in communication with had

10     encountered Chetniks.  Does this refresh your memory in any way?

11        A.   Believe me, it doesn't.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you exclude for the possibility that you had

13     contact and that you were informed about what had happened or what was

14     happening?

15        A.   Well, I mean, at that moment, well, believe me, I don't remember.

16     When such tasks were being carried out, even if there were some minor

17     incidents, we didn't really attach much importance to that.  We stuck to

18     our own tasks unless some intervention was called for.  Believe me, I

19     didn't really think it mattered.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  One second, please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zinic, the Chamber had access to a statement

23     which said that at a certain moment all the group leaders were in a

24     village, and that you stood on a plateau in the middle of the village,

25     and that soldiers searched the houses.  Is that something you recollect?

Page 28066

 1        A.   I do not really agree to that.  At one point, I did state that I

 2     came to the edge of something and I saw a house or two.  Now, were they

 3     houses or whatever, but I thought that it was on the outskirts of the

 4     village.  Now, whether that village is where that happened, I really

 5     cannot say.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  But that was during the operation and before you

 7     joined with the other groups, as you said, on the top of a hill?  Is

 8     that --

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to move on.

11             Could you tell us how you were briefed before the operation

12     started?  Who briefed you, who gave the tasks; what was said?

13        A.   Well, we came to our point of departure, or whatever we're going

14     to call it, and from there we were supposed to set out.  The commander --

15     or, rather, the acting commander, Mr. Josip Celic, told us what our task

16     would be.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you get maps?

18        A.   Yes, yes, we did get maps, and we were given the directions in

19     which we were supposed to move.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, there were four groups.  May I take it

21     that they moved on parallel in the same direction?

22        A.   Well, it's hard to say now.  Because of the configuration of the

23     terrain, it was hard to move around and hard to move along parallel lines

24     even within a single group, let alone with other groups.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the starting point, do you remember where

Page 28067

 1     you were; to the left, to the right of -- or in the middle, your group?

 2        A.   Well, I tried to be in the middle as much as possible, but I

 3     communicated with all the people there because it was my duty to see

 4     whether everything was in order.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you have responsibility for other groups then as

 6     well?

 7        A.   No.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  If you say you tried to be in the middle, and I

 9     specifically asked about your group, now, if you have four groups, there

10     are two middle groups, were you to the left -- were you on the left side

11     or on the right side of the middle?

12        A.   I was to the left of the middle, as it were.  My group, well, in

13     relation to my unit, was to the left.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I did not fully understand your answer.  You said:

15             "My group, well, in relation to my unit, was to the left."

16             Your group was --

17        A.   That's right.  I mean, in relation to the unit, my group was to

18     the left.  I mean, in relation to the other three groups, I was to the

19     left, in relation to the direction of movement.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Most to the left, that means three groups to your

21     right; is that --

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you were briefed in the morning.  You received

24     your tasks.  Did you report to anyone after the operation was concluded?

25        A.   Well, I think that Mr. Celic asked and that I told him that

Page 28068

 1     nothing had happened in relation to my group and the direction that we

 2     were to move in.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you present when other group leaders reported

 4     to Mr. Celic?

 5        A.   No.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you got together on the top of the hill, and

 7     then you moved on.  At what point in time, then, did you talk to

 8     Mr. Celic?

 9        A.   Well, I think it was when we went down, I mean, when we got into

10     this hamlet at the very end of this task, at that moment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  And where were the other group leaders at that very

12     moment?

13        A.   Well, somewhere within that circle, because we were getting close

14     to our vehicles, we were tired, it was raining, so we weren't really

15     paying attention as to who was where.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Was Mr. Celic waiting for you at that point in that

17     hamlet or village?

18        A.   Well, I'm not sure, but I think that he was there and that he was

19     waiting there.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You just told us that you briefly spoke with

22     Mr. Celic and that you reported to him that nothing special had happened.

23     Now, did you discuss this operation with Mr. Celic, or any of the other

24     group leaders, later on on that day or on the next day?

25        A.   Well, I did not discuss it.  It is not customary to discuss

Page 28069

 1     tasks.  It was stated that nothing had happened, nothing important, so we

 2     didn't discuss anything.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  When, for the first time, did you learn that there

 4     may have been incidents or problems during this operation on the 25th?

 5        A.   Well, I think it was when we were supposed to write our reports.

 6     But that was when we had returned to the headquarters of the unit, but I

 7     don't know what date that was.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Headquarters of the unit.  You're referring to what

 9     location?

10        A.   Zagreb.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you said that you were supposed to write your

12     reports.  Wasn't it usually done, writing reports, at the end of the

13     operation, such a search operation.

14        A.   Well, while such tasks are being carried out, if I, as group

15     leader, assess that there was nothing of interest that was supposed to be

16     written, then I would just report to the commander orally to the effect

17     that nothing had happened, and that would be it.  In the field, we did

18     not write up reports straight away.  It wasn't really possible, either.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, I'd like to take you to the next day, the

20     26th of August.  I think you earlier said that you conducted an operation

21     in the Ramljani area.  Were you involved personally in that operation?

22        A.   Yes, I did take part in it.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you a group leader again or what was your role?

24        A.   Well, yes, I was group leader.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you describe what you experienced, what

Page 28070

 1     happened during that operation on the 26th?

 2        A.   Well, we were given the following task: to check the terrain in

 3     the area of Ramljani to check whether there were any enemy groups that

 4     were still left over.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  It was your task, and what did you experience, what

 6     did you encounter that day?

 7        A.   Well, I don't remember the details.  I know that when we came to

 8     some initial position - again I cannot say exactly where that was - we

 9     were given maps, and we were supposed to check a particular area.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  What did you encounter then?  I mean, what

11     happened during that day?

12        A.   In my group, nothing special happened.  We were talking in an

13     area that was inhabited, I mean inhabited -- there would be hamlets

14     consisting of two houses, and three houses, or five houses.  I did not

15     really pay any special attention to this if nothing particular happened.

16     We were just walking around, looking.  And as we arrived in a hamlet, I

17     noticed that a few houses had been burned.  It seems to me that there was

18     still smoke coming out of them, so it seemed that they had burned only

19     recently.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other events worth describing?

21        A.   Well, no.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Any exchange of fire?

23        A.   In my group, no.  I mean, I can just say that perhaps twice we

24     opened fire at buildings that seemed suspicious to us, that there may

25     have been an enemy there threatening our safety and security.  We called

Page 28071

 1     that checks for our own security and safety.  I mean, you have the

 2     feeling that someone may be there, and then fire would be opened from

 3     side-arms to check whether there was anyone inside.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  So on the basis of the mere suspicion that there

 5     might be someone in a house or a building, you would open fire?

 6        A.   Well, no.  You see, when you have this suspicion, it has to do

 7     with the safety of people.  We'd rather open fire than have some of our

 8     members shot at from a house.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was there no firing at you?

10        A.   Well, if there would be no fire, then we wouldn't fire anymore

11     either.  We'd move on, continue with the checks.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  My question was whether there was any fire in your

13     direction.

14        A.   No, no, there wasn't.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, what weapons did you have?

16        A.   Well, we had our personal side-arms, infantry weapons, and

17     RPG 7 anti-armour rockets.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you use those rockets?

19        A.   As far as I can remember, not in that action.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you notice any enemies or the presence of any

21     enemies?  Did you see any or were you able to observe any enemy movement?

22        A.   I personally did not, and I believe that no one from my group did

23     either, because had that been the case, I would have known.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you search any houses?

25        A.   I think I entered a few houses, but nothing special.

Page 28072

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you find anything in those houses worth

 2     mentioning?

 3        A.   Well, I personally did not, but I know that some individuals

 4     found some weapons like Zoljas, infantry weapons, boxes with mines,

 5     land-mines.  I did not really pay much attention to that because that is

 6     what could be found in practically every house.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  The events on that day, were they of a kind that you

 8     would give a written report?

 9        A.   Well, I don't remember that I wrote a report, but when I last

10     received summons from the state prosecutor in Croatia, I was shown a

11     report that I had written.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we please have P769 on the screen.

13             Could you please have a look at your screen.  Is that the report

14     you said that was shown to you?

15        A.   Well, I'm not quite sure now.  I think that in the report that I

16     was shown, there were some words or sentences that had been crossed out.

17     I don't see anything crossed out over here.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I see two -- a few words, approximately in the

19     middle, one word in the original, the last line, and four lines from the

20     bottom.  Small words are stricken out.

21        A.   Yes, but I think that there was more over there, I mean, that

22     there were more things crossed out, but I'm not sure.  Judging by the

23     handwriting, it should be mine.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you recognise your signature at the bottom,

25     or at least your name as written by yourself?

Page 28073

 1        A.   It is my name, but it's not my signature.  However, I cannot say

 2     anything for sure now, because the report I saw in Zagreb, I saw very

 3     briefly, and I didn't hold it in my own hands.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The handwriting, is that similar to what you

 5     know to be your handwriting?

 6        A.   Well, I could say that this is my handwriting.  I could confirm

 7     that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  In this report, it is written that when you arrived

 9     in the hamlet of Vucenovici, that you came under fire from some houses

10     and that you returned fire, which is in contradiction to the testimony

11     you gave during the last 10 minutes.

12        A.   Well, I stated that we did fire as we were passing through that

13     settlement, but I cannot recall any details now.  I know that in two

14     places, we opened fire.  For me, that had to do with safety.  Well, we

15     did some things for the sake of our personal safety.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I specifically asked you whether you were

17     fired at, and then your answer was that you were not.  Here, however, the

18     story is different.

19        A.   Well, I have to say that it's been a long time since then.

20     Memory fades.  But if that is what is written here, it's possible that

21     that may have been the case.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  The report also states that the Chetniks probably

23     fled into the forest, whereas your testimony was that you were not aware

24     of any enemy presence, at least as far as you could notice, and that you

25     would have known if otherwise.

Page 28074

 1        A.   During the war, I had many such tasks, perhaps even up to a

 2     hundred.  I did not attach importance to some of the things that

 3     happened, and I didn't even try to remember them, because these were

 4     regular tasks.  As a matter of fact, I tried to forget certain things,

 5     so -- I mean, well, if that is written here, that might have happened,

 6     but I don't remember.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do you remember at what time you concluded this

 8     operation, the Ramljani -- in the Ramljani area on the 26th?

 9        A.   Oh, I don't remember.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember any -- having seen Mr. Sacic on that

11     same day?

12        A.   On that day, no.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see Mr. Markac on that day?

14        A.   I think it was on that day.  After having completed this task, we

15     were returning to Gracac, I think.  Somewhere along the way, we were

16     encountered by General Markac.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  This Chamber received evidence that at that

18     occasion Mr. Sasic was present as well.  Does this refresh your

19     recollection?

20        A.   No, I don't recall him being there.  I don't think he was.  I do

21     know, however, that Mr. Janic accompanied Mr. Markac.  I don't know

22     whether there was anyone else there.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, when, upon your return, you met -- or at

24     least you saw Mr. Markac, could you describe what then happened?

25        A.   We were encountered by him along the road towards Gracac, I

Page 28075

 1     believe.  We stopped, the vehicle column stopped.  Some people got out,

 2     including myself.  I saw that General Markac was there in conversation

 3     with a number of people who stood around him in a circle.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember with whom he had a conversation,

 5     specifically?

 6        A.   I can't remember.  I did not approach them.  I couldn't really

 7     see who he was addressing.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us who the other group leaders were,

 9     and were they the same as the day before.

10        A.   You mean on the second day, the 26th?

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were the groups approximately the same, with

12     the same group leaders, as on the 25th, or were the groups composed

13     differently?

14        A.   I think the groups differed, that there were fewer.  I think

15     there were two.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you remember who the group leaders were on

17     the day before?  That was the Plavno operation.  Do you remember their

18     names?

19        A.   I was one group commander.  The second person was

20     Branko Balunovic.  The third group commander was Bozo Krajina, and the

21     fourth, Franjo Drljo.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And who were group leaders on the 26th, the Ramljani

23     operation?

24        A.   I couldn't say.  I think Bozo Krajina was with me.  I think we

25     were in one group, but I don't know for the other group.  I cannot

Page 28076

 1     remember.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Was Mr. Drljo there on the 26th?

 3        A.   I think he was.  He was -- he should have.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any specific recollection as to whether

 5     Mr. Drljo was engaged in that conversation with Mr. Markac?

 6        A.   I think he was in the group of people addressed by Mr. Markac.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us what matter was addressed by

 8     Mr. Markac at that moment?

 9        A.   I didn't come close, but I could see that Mr. Markac was angry

10     over something.  I think he mentioned some houses being burned.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he say anything about people being killed?

12        A.   No, I didn't hear that.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we have 65 ter 7544 on the screen.

14             Could we move to the second -- no.  Before we do so, do you

15     recognise this document?  Have you seen it before?

16        A.   I didn't see it.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  It is a record of a witness interview held on the

18     16th of December last year with you.  Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes, I do, but I don't seem to recall it.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you recall that you were interviewed as a witness

21     on the 16th of December of last year?

22        A.   Last year, in December, there was an interview, but I don't know

23     whether it was on the 16th.  In any case, there was an interview

24     conducted with me on the premises of the County Court.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we move to the next page both in English and

Page 28077

 1     in B/C/S.  I think for English, we have to go to the following page.

 2             One second, please.  May we have page 3 in English.  This is

 3     page 3.  I'm sorry.  Could we move it a little bit further down.

 4             In this record of your interview, you find a portion which

 5     relates to the events we just discussed; that is, at the lower part of

 6     the last big paragraph.  You see that?

 7        A.   Yes, I see it.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  And I read to you:

 9             "The next day, on the road between Knin and Gracac, we were

10     intercepted by General Markac and Zdravko Janic, so we all exited the

11     vehicles and surrounded them.  General Markac was furious.  He was

12     shouting at Franjo Drljo specifically, saying that houses in the village

13     were set on fire and that some people were killed, and then he told us to

14     return directly to Zagreb ..."

15             That is a different account compared to what you just told us.

16     It is that you apparently were able to follow what Mr. Markac said, that

17     he was specifically shouting at Franjo Drljo, and that he mentioned,

18     apart from houses in the village being set on fire, that also some people

19     were killed.  Does this refresh your memory?  It's a rather recent

20     statement.

21        A.   I did say that General Markac was surrounded by a group of people

22     and that he was addressing someone.  It seems I may have said that it was

23     Franjo Drljo.  I could see he was upset, and as I have already stated, I

24     believe he mentioned certain houses which had been set on fire.  I cannot

25     recall exactly.  But as for him mentioning any people being killed, well,

Page 28078

 1     I was trying to remember things, but I cannot say anything with any

 2     certainty.  I wasn't close enough to be able to overhear every single

 3     word.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And in last December, does this reflect what you

 5     stated when you were interviewed as a witness?

 6        A.   I do not understand.  Does what reflect?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  What I just read to you, is that what you said in

 8     December when you were interviewed, so apart from whether this is what

 9     you recollect today?

10        A.   If this is the way it was written down, then I probably did say

11     so.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You do not contest or you do not claim that it

13     was put on paper in an inaccurate way?

14        A.   I believe it was taken down correctly.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see any houses burning on this

16     26th of August?

17        A.   I saw that some houses had burned down recently.  They were still

18     smoldering.  I couldn't tell, though, whether it took place a couple of

19     hours before that or earlier.  In any case, I think it had happened

20     before our group entered the hamlet.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I have some difficulties in scrolling up to the

22     previous portions of your testimony.

23             Mr. Hedaraly, you have full access to the e-court, to --

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, I do, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'll give it another try.

Page 28079

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Equality of arms re-established.  One second,

 3     please.

 4             Could you tell us, Mr. Zinic, how did your unit leave the area?

 5     When was it that it left the area?

 6        A.   I think it was on the 26th.  After we encountered General Markac,

 7     we went back to Gracac to collect our equipment, and then we went to

 8     Zagreb.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  That same evening, you left for Zagreb?

10        A.   I think so.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  So you didn't stay overnight.  Was there any meeting

12     in the evening of the 26th you attended?

13        A.   Not as far as I know.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did the whole of the Lucko unit leave that same

15     evening for Zagreb?

16        A.   I think it should have.  I think we all returned, although I'm

17     not sure.  Some may have stayed behind, but I'm not certain of that.

18     I think we all went back to Zagreb.  If some people stayed, these were

19     just individuals.  I can't say anything other than that.  I think we all

20     went back.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  How did you travel back; all together in a bus, or

22     separate in vehicles, or --

23        A.   No, we went back to Zagreb in our vehicles.  There were between

24     four and six members of the unit per vehicle.  We were in our official

25     vehicles, off-road vehicles we had been assigned.

Page 28080

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you remember how many people participated

 2     in the 26th of August Ramljani area operation?

 3        A.   I don't know.  I think around 50 or 60.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any -- if I would suggest to you that

 5     Mr. Balunovic would have stayed in Gracac and not returned to Zagreb,

 6     does that ring a bell?

 7        A.   No, I don't know that.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Celic?

 9        A.   No.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember having seen any of these two

11     returning to Zagreb or do you have no recollection of it?

12        A.   I can't tell you at all whether I saw them or not.  We all went

13     in separate vehicles.  I don't know who was in what vehicle.  In my

14     opinion, everyone should have returned to Zagreb.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Was it planned that you would return to Zagreb on

16     that same day?

17        A.   I don't know.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Because in your statement, I read that:

19             "... and then he told us to return directly to Zagreb."

20             Was there any reason to tell this if it was planned already?

21        A.   I cannot comment on any plans.  I wasn't aware of any.  The only

22     thing I can see now is what I seemingly stated when I said that

23     General Markac told us we were all to go back to Zagreb.  The task was

24     completed, and we were sent back.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 28081

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you earlier told us that these search

 2     operations were in relation to the Freedom Train.  Do you remember on

 3     what day the Freedom Train passed through the area?

 4        A.   I don't recall that.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  If your operation was related to the voyage of the

 6     Freedom Train, were you aware of whether it had passed through the area,

 7     yes or no, because that apparently was one of the purposes of the

 8     operation?

 9        A.   Personally, I had no knowledge of the time it was supposed to go

10     through or on what day.  I cannot comment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  You have no idea about the time it was supposed to

12     get through.  Do you know whether it had gone through already when you

13     were still in the area?

14        A.   I really can't say.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm looking at the clock.

17             Mr. Zinic, we'll first have a break, because it doesn't make

18     sense to start a new subject at this very moment.  We'd like to see you

19     back in 25 minutes.

20             We have a break.

21                           --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zinic, we left off at the moment when the unit

24     returned to Zagreb.  Now, did you ever go back to Grubori or the Grubori

25     area?

Page 28082

 1        A.   No, never again.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I'd like to take you to a moment you mentioned

 3     earlier; that is, when you wrote a report on the events on the

 4     25th of August.  Do you remember where you wrote that report?

 5        A.   I remember that.  We wrote that in Zagreb, in the headquarters of

 6     the unit.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, were you usually present in the premises where

 8     you wrote that report, if not in the field?

 9        A.   There are no customary or established ways of drafting reports.

10     One usually sits down in one's office or wherever is best at the moment.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you write your report in your own office?

12        A.   I don't remember whether I was in my office or in another room.

13     I don't know where I wrote it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell us who asked you to write the report?

15        A.   Yes.  We were ordered orally to do so by Josip Turkalj, the unit

16     commander.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he come to -- do you have an office in the

18     headquarters?  Do you have your own office there?

19        A.   I did.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  You had it on the 1st of September, 1995?

21        A.   Yes, I had it when I was employed there.  I had a room where

22     we -- how should I put it?  Where we did the writing and where we kept

23     our equipment.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  When you refer to the writing, you're not

25     specifically referring to this report, but in general?

Page 28083

 1        A.   Well, it was an office, we can call it that, assigned to me.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did Mr. Turkalj come to your office?  What

 3     happened, exactly?

 4        A.   No, no.  We were summoned to his office, all the commanders of

 5     the groups.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What did he -- you were together in his office when

 7     he addressed the matter?

 8        A.   Yes, we were.  We were all called to appear there, and he

 9     addressed us.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  What did he tell you, exactly?

11        A.   He said that a written order came in from the sector, from Sacic,

12     stating that we, as group commanders, were to be tasked with drafting

13     reports about the two days during which we were engaged in our activities

14     in the area of Knin.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Does that mean that you had not yet written a report

16     on the events of the 26th; that is, the Ramljani operation?  Had you not

17     yet written a report on that?

18        A.   I had not, as far as I recall.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  And the report that was just shown to you before the

20     break, was that produced also in Zagreb early September?

21        A.   In my previous statements, I couldn't even remember whether I had

22     drafted any reports about the events on the second day.  It was the last

23     time I was interviewed that the report was shown to me.  Before that, I

24     wasn't even aware of having written it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you have any recollection on having written

Page 28084

 1     such a report when you were in the field or on your return to Zagreb on

 2     the 26th, itself?

 3        A.   I truly cannot remember.  I cannot answer this question.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it from your answer, that Mr. Turkalj

 5     told you that you had to write reports on the two days, that you had not

 6     yet written a report on the 26th?

 7        A.   I think I hadn't.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, he told you that you had to write reports.  He

 9     told you.  Were all the group leaders present?

10        A.   Yes, I think all the group commanders were there, as well as

11     Mr. Celic, who was acting commander.  He was in Mr. Turkalj's office.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you receive any information which

13     would have to be included in your report or were you just given an order

14     to write reports on the events of that day?  What was it that you were

15     instructed to do?

16        A.   We were told to draft a report each.  I took it as such.

17     Mr. Turkalj did not specify anything in particular as to what we were

18     supposed to write about.  Each of us was supposed to draft a report to

19     the best of our recollections about the events in the field.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  And then you wrote that report.  Did you write it by

21     hand or --

22        A.   We usually drafted reports by hand, and then we would give that

23     script to a secretary to type it in the computer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did you have your own secretary or was it

25     someone else's secretary?

Page 28085

 1        A.   It was the unit commander's secretary.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Again, do you remember where you wrote this

 3     report?

 4        A.   I usually wrote reports in my office.  I think this was the case

 5     with this one as well.  I don't think it was any other way.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you deliver the handwritten report yourself to

 7     the secretary, or how did that go?

 8        A.   Usually, we gave it to her ourselves, and this was probably the

 9     case.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  And then once it was typed out, what would happen?

11     Would you get it back or --

12        A.   Yes, I would get it back.  I would get back the typed version,

13     read it and then sign it.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Is that what happened with your report that you

15     drafted in Zagreb?

16        A.   I think so.  It shouldn't have been anything different.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Was that the end of the story, as far as the

18     report is concerned?

19        A.   I think so, yes.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Once you had signed it, to whom would you give it?

21     Or would you leave it with the secretary after having signed it?

22        A.   I think -- or, rather, it's not that I think.  Probably it was

23     given to the secretary, the secretary gave it to the commander, and the

24     commander sent it by mail to the Sector of the Special Police, to

25     Mr. Sacic.

Page 28086

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you receive any comment on the report you had

 2     given for being typed out?  Did anyone comment on it?

 3        A.   I don't understand.  Did anyone comment on the report?

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Did Mr. Celic say, Well, good report, or did he

 5     say -- was there anyone else, Mr. Sacic, Mr. Celic, Mr. Janic, whomever

 6     it may have been, that said, It's too long, or, It's too short, or is it

 7     just that you delivered it as it was, without any further comment?

 8        A.   Well, no.  Once the report is written, it is sent to the sector,

 9     to Mr. Sacic.  I mean, well, no further comments.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you ever see it back, that report, in those

11     days?  Well, let's say in 1995.

12        A.   No.  I saw that report again only sometime in 2000 something,

13     when we were asked by the police to come in, when proceedings were

14     initiated, in 2001 or 2002.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So just for me to fully understand, you write a

16     handwritten report, you deliver it to the secretary of Mr. Turkalj?

17        A.   That's right.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  She types it out, gives it to you for signature.

19     Did you read it, whether she typed it out well?

20        A.   I probably did.  Usually, one does read it out.  I did read it.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  You signed it?

22        A.   Signed it, yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  You delivered it for being sent up in the hierarchy?

24        A.   That's right.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  You did not make -- did you make any corrections?

Page 28087

 1        A.   Well, I mean, at one point I did see another report, too, where a

 2     correction had been made.  I cannot say now whether -- well, I mean, I

 3     cannot say now whether I said that it should be corrected.  I don't

 4     remember.  I probably saw that something was omitted and I asked for a

 5     correction to be made, because corrections were made to reports.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  What was the correction?

 7        A.   Well, the first report, it did not include the fact that we were

 8     supposed to treat civilians in accordance with International Law in

 9     respect of civilian prisoners.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you find out that the report was

11     incomplete?

12        A.   I don't even remember that.  It's only when I was being

13     questioned by the gentleman from the Tribunal.  Casey, was that his name,

14     Casey?  Then he showed me the other one, and then I realised there were

15     two.  I think Casey, it was his name.  When The Hague Tribunal was

16     putting questions to me in Zagreb, I think it was 2004, that's when I saw

17     this other report as well where the correction had been made.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So when I earlier asked you whether once you had

19     given the report for being typed out, you got it back for signature, and

20     that you delivered it, that was the end of the story, apparently it was

21     not, because a second version of the report was produced, or do you

22     say -- I mean, could you tell us, you made the correction yourself?

23        A.   Yes, myself.  But, you see, as far as reports were concerned,

24     there was that possibility of having things added to them.  That was the

25     normal procedure for us; namely, that if a report was incomplete, an

Page 28088

 1     addition would be made.  In this case, that is what was added, the

 2     correction, that is, because that had not been written out in the first

 3     place, that we should behave as we should.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Did someone draw your attention to the fact that

 5     apparently something was missing?

 6        A.   I cannot answer that.  I don't remember.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  So you consider it possible that someone else

 8     suggested that the report should be corrected or completed?

 9        A.   Well, there is that possibility.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I again put this question to you, and you know that

11     you have to answer questions in accordance with the truth; that is, the

12     truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Did someone draw your

13     attention to any correction or addition to be made to your report?

14        A.   Well, I cannot give an answer because I do not remember that

15     detail.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let's have a look at your report, and I'll take the

17     second version.  You apparently -- no, let's take the first, the first

18     version.

19             Can we have a look at P568.

20             Do you recognise your signature?

21        A.   Well, I said that once already, that the signature could be mine,

22     but I cannot state that with full certainty.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we take you to the second report, which is

24     P569.

25             Could you have a look at that signature?

Page 28089

 1        A.   I think it is.  Well, you see, I changed the name

 2     [as interpreted] in which I signed my name, so I don't exactly remember.

 3     But I did sign my name this way before, so, yes, this is my signature.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, if you go to the content of the report,

 5     it says, second paragraph, that you held a brief meeting with Mr. Celic

 6     and then you split into three groups.  Is my recollection correct that

 7     you said that there were four groups?

 8        A.   Well, you see, we wrote the report from memory.  Everybody wrote

 9     it up the way they remembered it.  At that moment, if I wrote it was

10     three groups, I may have made a mistake.  I cannot say exactly.  If it is

11     written that there were three groups, there may have been three groups,

12     but according to --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  I take you to the large paragraph under the names,

14     and I read to you that while you were on the left side of Grubori

15     village, that there was certain fierce gun-fire and several explosions

16     were heard.  You asked about it over the system.  You were told they had

17     come up with a group of Chetniks.

18             The fierce gun-fire and several explosions is not entirely the

19     same as you told us today.  Do you have an explanation for that?  What

20     you told us today, is that what happened, or was there fierce gun-fire

21     and several explosions that you heard and that you were informed over the

22     system on what had happened?

23        A.   Well, I'm making this statement on the basis of memory, so I

24     cannot exactly remember all details.  I mean, well, since the report

25     says, and the report was written immediately after the events, perhaps

Page 28090

 1     that is the way things actually did happen.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And it also says that some of the Chetniks were

 3     fleeing to the forest and that you immediately went after them, so that

 4     you did not even enter the village.  Now, did you go after the Chetniks?

 5        A.   Well, probably, yes, if that is what is written in this report,

 6     then that is probably the way things happened.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But earlier today, I think you gave testimony

 8     which is not in line with what is written here.

 9        A.   Well, you see, in my testimony, I'm saying the things I can

10     remember.  I cannot speak about details if I don't remember them.  It is

11     only now, when I see these reports -- this report, the way it was

12     written, then I think that is how things happened.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you aware of any of the reports drafted by the

14     other group leaders were corrected as well?

15        A.   I don't know about that because I could not see their reports.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me put the following to you:  This Chamber

17     received evidence -- I'm not giving perhaps the entirety of the evidence,

18     but I make a selection of it.  The Chamber received evidence that the

19     first reporting on the 25th was of a kind that nothing special had

20     happened.  Now, the Chamber also received evidence that this first report

21     was then corrected or replaced, whatever you call it, where combat or at

22     least exchange of fire appears, where it did not appear in a similar way

23     in the first report.  The Chamber also received evidence and has access

24     to statements where you are supposed to have reported orally to Mr. Celic

25     on the 25th that nothing special had happened on that day.  Now, the

Page 28091

 1     Chamber looks at this report, which is dated the 25th of August, Gracac,

 2     although it was drafted in Zagreb at a later date, and the evidence could

 3     be interpreted as an effort to introduce combat in an organised way in

 4     the reports, where it had not been observed by those who were reporting.

 5     Did you understand what I suggested as a possible interpretation of that

 6     evidence?

 7        A.   Well, I did not fully understand whether you are speaking of my

 8     two reports.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I am speaking about your reports, your two reports,

10     as an element in how one could interpret the evidence that I mentioned

11     before; that is, that it was part of an effort to introduce combat where

12     those writing the reports had not experienced such combat.

13        A.   I don't know.  I mean, you are saying that someone else changed

14     the report without my knowledge?

15             JUDGE ORIE:  No one urged you to do that, not to change the --

16     well, the first report that one could -- and I'm seeking your answer to

17     that, you could interpret the evidence as to be understood in the context

18     of a joint effort to change the events in the report from "nothing

19     special happened" to "exchange of fire, fierce gun-fire and explosions"?

20        A.   Well, when presenting an oral report to Mr. Celic, in my group

21     there was nothing that was happening.  That's what I said.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But in this written report, you say you

23     immediately went after them, the Chetniks, which is not in line with what

24     you said you orally reported to Mr. Celic, did you?

25        A.   Well, probably I didn't attach importance to that because I was

Page 28092

 1     just told that part of the Chetniks fled into the woods.  Since I did not

 2     see anyone, there were no events.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  You didn't go after them, then, if you didn't see

 4     anyone, did you?

 5        A.   Well, what was said was that they had fled into the woods, and we

 6     went after them, but we didn't see anyone.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I think I earlier -- but I have to check that.  It

 8     is not my recollection that in your testimony earlier today, you referred

 9     to any such thing as the presence of Chetniks and going after them in the

10     woods.

11        A.   Again, I will note that my testimony is based on memory about

12     things that happened 15 years ago.  I really cannot remember details.

13     Now, the report that is in front of me proves something different.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  That seems to be a conclusion.  Are you aware of the

15     position taken by Mr. Drljo in relation to writing reports about the

16     25th?

17        A.   I think that he did not write a report.  I know that his position

18     was that he did not wish to write, that he had nothing to write about.

19     That's what we -- that's what he stated when we were at the commander's,

20     when we were all together and when he had told us that we had to write

21     reports.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Did he get away with that, not to write a report,

23     where he was ordered to write one?

24        A.   I have no way of knowing.  It is for the commander.  He's the one

25     who was supposed to resolve that.

Page 28093

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you told me that you do not remember whether

 2     anyone has drawn your attention to this added element in the report.  I

 3     also asked you about whether specific information should be contained in

 4     the report you are ordered to write in Zagreb.  Can you, with certainty,

 5     tell us that you were not told by anyone what elements -- what factual

 6     elements should be contained in your report, or is it also a matter you

 7     don't remember?

 8        A.   When talking to the commander, when it was said that we should

 9     write reports, we probably discussed it, or perhaps I discussed it with

10     someone, since we were supposed to write reports had something happened.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  "With someone."  Can you be more precise?  Did you

12     discuss the content -- did you discuss the events at the moment you were

13     ordered to write a report?  Was there any conversation about what had

14     actually happened?

15        A.   Well, I probably asked sort of whether anything had happened.

16     Now, I could have talked to Mr. Balunovic, or Bozo Krajina, or Drljo, or

17     Celic, since we worked together.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  So the events on which you are supposed to report

19     were discussed.  Is there anything in your report which may have been the

20     fruit of that discussion rather than of your own observation; that is,

21     that you heard that it had happened or someone said that this is what

22     happened, without you having personal knowledge of it, but including it

23     in your report?

24        A.   Well, when I was out in the field in all of these actions, there

25     was shooting, and that was probably the case in this task in Grubori.  It

Page 28094

 1     is hard to distinguish between and among different actions.  They were

 2     all similar, more or less.  And we tried -- or at least I tried to forget

 3     all about them as soon as I could.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  This is not an answer to my question.  My question

 5     is whether, in your report, possibly events -- facts are described which

 6     you discussed, when invited to write a report, with others, rather than

 7     on the basis of a clear recollection of the events, a clear recollection

 8     of what you observed during that 25th of August.

 9        A.   Well, I was supposed to write a report about a group that was

10     under my command.  I may have talked to some of the members of my group.

11     I really cannot remember.  Perhaps it was one of them.  Perhaps I asked

12     them whether they knew something, whether they could explain.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you introduced a second element.  The first is

14     that you may have had a conversation with the group leaders.  Did you

15     also have a conversation with all of your group members?

16        A.   Oh, no, most certainly not.  It must have been someone I was

17     closer to, someone I thought could help me.  But, I mean, I really cannot

18     remember.  I don't know.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Still I have got no answer to my question.  My

20     question was whether you consider it a possibility that what others had

21     observed and what the recollection of others was may have been presented

22     in the report for a fact, although you did not personally observe it and

23     it's not based on your personal recollection of the events.

24        A.   Reports were written based on my opinion, as a commander, and by

25     the opinions of those who participated in the operation.  If I am

Page 28095

 1     supposed to draft a report and I lack information, then, of course, I

 2     turn to those who took part in it to get by certain information.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  And it may be that information you obtained from

 4     others, including those who were not members of your unit, that may have

 5     ended up in the report as a fact?

 6        A.   I don't think so.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  This Chamber has seen a statement in which one of

 8     the other group leaders stated that all the group leaders had received a

 9     piece of paper on which they based their reports.  Did you receive any

10     paper on which you based your report?

11        A.   No, I don't think so.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you know that you didn't or do you think that you

13     didn't?

14        A.   No, I didn't.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  On that day in Zagreb, were you aware of

16     casualties in Grubori?

17        A.   You mean the day the report was written?

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's what I meant.

19        A.   No, I wasn't aware of it that day.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you become aware?

21        A.   Well, it's difficult to say.  At a certain point after a while, I

22     don't even know when, it is then that I heard that there had been certain

23     things there, but it was in passing during an informal conversation.

24     There was nothing specific about it.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  And you never heard about any television coverage,

Page 28096

 1     relatively soon after the event, in which casualties in Grubori were

 2     discussed or were the subject of the reporting?

 3        A.   There was some, but I didn't connect that to our unit.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  And no one did in your unit?

 5        A.   I didn't discuss it with others.  I wouldn't know.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  One final question.  Mr. Celic was there when

 8     Mr. Turkalj called you in his office in order to receive an order to

 9     write a report?

10        A.   I think he was.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you, to some extent, discussed the events

12     amongst yourselves, those who were present in that office?

13        A.   We probably did.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  But in that discussion, do you know for certain that

15     no dead bodies found in Grubori were ever mentioned during that

16     conversation?

17        A.   I don't think it was mentioned.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Why do you think it was not mentioned?

19        A.   I can't say with any certainty whether it was mentioned or

20     wasn't.  But as for what you mentioned about TV broadcasts about the

21     casualties, that is something I did not discuss with my unit.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  But you did discuss, then, without referring to the

23     television broadcast, events such as casualties that may have occurred in

24     that area?

25        A.   I don't remember.  I cannot decide on the sequence of things,

Page 28097

 1     whether there may have been broadcasts before or after that.  I really

 2     don't know.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm focusing on what was the subject of conversation

 4     in that office in Zagreb where you were called in order to receive an

 5     instruction to write a report.

 6        A.   You mean on what date?

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  I am inquiring whether dead bodies found in Grubori

 8     were part of the conversation which took place in that office when you

 9     were ordered to write a report.

10        A.   I allow for the possibility of having discussed such matters

11     there.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  So if you earlier -- when I said whether you were

13     aware of casualties when you were in that office, when you said, No, I

14     was not aware, that you correct that now and say, I may have been aware

15     because it may have been the subject of our conversation?

16        A.   I can't say how long it took.  After I received the order to

17     draft my report, I left.  I think some stayed behind, but I don't know

18     whether they discussed such matters.  I know for a fact that we didn't

19     all leave at that point.  Some remained.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zinic, you said that there was a conversation.

21     You didn't say, I left the office and others might have a conversation.

22     You clearly pointed at a conversation and even did not exclude for the

23     possibility that what you heard there may have found its way into your

24     report.  Now you are, more or less, telling us, There may have been a

25     conversation, but I wasn't there, which is inconsistent with your

Page 28098

 1     previous testimony today.

 2        A.   I wasn't trying to say that I left immediately, while the

 3     commander was issuing orders to draft our reports.  Following that, there

 4     was probably a very brief conversation about the events there.  Given

 5     that there were no events to report on along my axis, I left to write the

 6     report.  As for those who stayed, I don't know what they discussed.

 7             Again, I must say that I'm now talking about something which took

 8     place --

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  I am aware of that.  But you earlier, in your

10     testimony, did not exclude that in that conversation, the presence of

11     dead bodies had been included in the subject of conversation?  You said

12     it may have been part of the conversation?

13        A.   I'm speaking from memory.  I can't say anything with 100 per cent

14     certainty, especially whether this was discussed.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has no further questions for you,

17     Mr. Zinic.

18             I am -- I would like to inquire with the parties whether they

19     could give an estimate on the time they would need for cross-examination.

20             Mr. Hedaraly.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  It's a little difficult, seeing the answers that

22     we may get, but I think one session, at the most, should be sufficient.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Other parties.

24             Mr. Kuzmanovic.

25             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  One or two sessions, Your Honour, depending on

Page 28099

 1     what is covered.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

 3             MR. KAY:  I only have one question, actually.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  One question.

 5             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, we have no questions.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Would you prefer to have the break first and then

 7     have a long session - that would mean approximately one hour and

 8     25 minutes, Mr. Hedaraly - where you would try to finish even within that

 9     time, isn't it?

10             MR. HEDARALY:  I think if I start now, it may be better to have

11     the break in the middle so I can assess what can be cut at that point.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One second, please.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zinic, you'll now be cross-examined by

15     Mr. Hedaraly, and Mr. Hedaraly is counsel for the Prosecution.

16             Mr. Hedaraly, you may proceed.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

19        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Zinic.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can have 65 ter 7655 on the screen.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Before we -- Mr. Hedaraly, before we continue, I

22     referred to statements.  I read the relevant portions into the

23     transcript.  It was not on my mind to have them in evidence, since I was

24     focusing exclusively on those specific portions, and I'm especially

25     referring to the December 2009 statement.  If the parties would take a

Page 28100

 1     different view, I'd like to know that.  But as matters stand now, reading

 2     the relevant portions is sufficient, as far as the Chamber is concerned.

 3             I hear of no objections to this approach.

 4             Mr. Hedaraly, please proceed.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             If I could have 65 ter 7655 on the screen.

 7        Q.   Mr. Zinic, you were promoted to assistant commander of the

 8     special police in November of 1995; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Mr. President, can I have 65 ter 7655 admitted

11     into evidence?

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Apparently no objections.

13             Mr. Registrar.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

15     Exhibit P2717.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  P2717 is admitted into evidence.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Mr. Zinic, I want to go back to the operation on the

19     25th of August, around the village of Grubori.

20             Now, before -- at the beginning of the operation, in the morning,

21     you had a briefing with Mr. Celic; correct?

22        A.   I wouldn't exactly call it a briefing.  Once we reached our

23     starting point, we simply received our tasks and were issued with maps.

24        Q.   But you received some instructions from Mr. Celic at that point?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 28101

 1        Q.   And Mr. Celic warned you that there may be civilians in these

 2     villages who were registered by UNPROFOR, and that you if saw them, you

 3     should leave them alone; is that also correct?

 4        A.   It probably is.

 5        Q.   And you also stated you were -- there were four groups on that

 6     day; correct?

 7        A.   I stated that from memory.  I'm slightly confused now, though,

 8     because it seems that in my report there is a mention of three.  I do

 9     think that there were four in the field.  I don't know why this is --

10        Q.   And, in fact, you'd named them for the Trial Chamber.  It was

11     Mr. Balunovic, Mr. Krajina, Mr. Drljo, and yourself, according to your

12     memory; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And according to your memory, you were at the left -- you were

15     the group the most at the left during this operation; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Let me show you a map.  It's 65 ter 7592.

18             Can you take a few moments and look at this map, and tell me if

19     this is -- this accurately represents your recollection of the operation

20     on the 25th of August, in terms of the axes of movement of the Lucko

21     unit?

22        A.   It should be.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

24             Mr. President, can I have 65 ter 7592 in evidence, please?

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 28102

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

 2     Exhibit P2718.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  In the absence of any objections, P2718 is admitted

 4     into evidence.

 5             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   And before I move on, I just want to clarify something.  I may

 7     have been confused at the beginning of your examination.

 8             When you reached the top -- the Orlovac peak, that's the first

 9     time that all the groups merged together on the 25th; is that correct?

10        A.   I think so.

11        Q.   And the village of Grubori was before you reached that peak;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes, I think so.

14        Q.   And when you were discussing with the Chamber the hamlet or

15     village that you had -- where you met at the end, that was at the end of

16     the operation, when you met with Mr. Celic at the end point; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, I want to go back, during the operation, when you heard some

19     shooting.  Now, the shooting that you heard was coming from your right;

20     is that correct?

21        A.   I think so.

22        Q.   And you then tried to contact someone on your Motorola to find

23     out what was happening?

24        A.   Usually, if there is anything going on, you try to find out.

25        Q.   And the general rules are that if you hear shooting, you stop,

Page 28103

 1     you find cover, and you see how events unfold; is that correct?

 2        A.   Well, in such events, for personal safety, one stops at the very

 3     position you find yourself to be at that moment.

 4        Q.   And then did you receive a response to your message on the radio

 5     saying that it will be checked, what the shooting was or what you were

 6     reporting?

 7        A.   I cannot say at all whether we had radio communication at that

 8     point in time.  I'm not certain.

 9        Q.   Well, you just told me that you remember contacting someone to

10     find out what was happening.

11        A.   I cannot claim it was so.  I was trying to do that, but I don't

12     know whether I succeeded.

13        Q.   Let me show you the statement that you gave - that was taped - to

14     the Office of the Prosecutor.

15             MR. HEDARALY:  If I could have 65 ter 7546, and if I could then

16     go to page 133, please.

17        Q.   And if you want to have a few minutes to look at the pages before

18     or after, just ask me, but my question is very specific to one portion

19     and to see if that refreshes your memory.  If you see at line 5 in

20     English, it's line 8 in the B/C/S --

21             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Could we have a date --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

23             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  -- a date, please, for the interview?

24             MR. HEDARALY:  I want to say it's November 2004, but if you just

25     bear with me.  15th of November, 2004.

Page 28104

 1        Q.   And here, you see the question is:

 2             "RC," for Mr. Casey, "Okay.  You said just now that you -- you

 3     went on your radio and to try and find out what the situation is; is that

 4     correct?"

 5             You answered:  "Yes."

 6             Then the next question is:

 7             "And what was the response you got the first time you called up?"

 8             And then you answer:

 9             "I can't even say who answered my call, but the answer -- I can't

10     say who was the person who answered it, but they said that the shooting

11     is going on and that they will check.

12             "Q.  And they will check --

13             "A.  It will be checked."

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, several words in that answer are

16     not translated accurately, so there's definitely a translation issue with

17     the answer from Croatian into English.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I invite you at least, during the next break,

19     to share your information with Mr. Hedaraly, because to clarify this

20     matter in the presence of the witness, that would take quite some time.

21     And I think if you would agree on it, and perhaps you have a language

22     assistant that could help you, Mr. Hedaraly, then we might be able to do

23     that immediately -- to hear from you immediately after the break.

24             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  We could do that, and I could give you the

25     reference.  I can just give you the line number, Your Honour, without

Page 28105

 1     saying what the words are.  It's line 18.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Zinic, do you speak or understand English?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very little.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you take off your earphones for a second.

 5             Mr. Kuzmanovic, there's a word missing?

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Yeah, two words, actually.  The words -- on

 7     line 18, the third and fourth word from the end are not translated.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you inform the Chamber as to what you

 9     understand the portion which is not translated?  And I know that you're

10     not a sworn translator, but that we have an idea on how important the

11     matter is.

12             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I can just read the words in Croatian,

13     Your Honour, if that's okay.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  "Vjerojatno, mozda."

16             JUDGE ORIE:  And I have not yet received the translation of

17     these -- not a translation, but the interpretation of what you just said.

18     Could you repeat them?

19             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Certainly.

20             [Interpretation] "Likely, perhaps."

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Without the context, it

22     means nothing.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Then at least we know what is bothering you,

24     Mr. Kuzmanovic, without drawing any conclusions at this moment.

25             Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 28106

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Can the witness be instructed to put back his

 2     earphones?  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Mr. Zinic, the portion I read to you, does that refresh your

 4     memory as to any answers you may have received on the radio on

 5     25th of August, 1995?

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Could we ask the witness to read his answer?

 7     Mr. Hedaraly, we will invite the witness, and we will see whether it can

 8     be enlarged, line 18 and 19.

 9             Could you please read that in your own language, Mr. Zinic, and

10     then answer the question that Mr. Hedaraly put to you?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  I can't even

12     say who picked up my call.  Probably maybe someone who had heard me.  The

13     answer was that there was shooting, that they will check.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's not the question that was put to you.

15     Well, reading, you read it out aloud, and I think we received some

16     information, although we were not seeking that at this very moment.

17             Mr. Hedaraly, you may proceed.

18             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now, reading this, these lines, does that refresh your memory as

20     to whether, in fact, someone did answer your call on 25 of August, when

21     you asked what was going on after having heard shooting?

22        A.   I wanted to say that I can't recall it.  I wanted to say that

23     someone may have heard it, may have answered, but I can't say with any

24     certainty who it was.

25        Q.   Okay.  Let me move on.

Page 28107

 1             Now, after having heard that shooting and trying to contact

 2     someone, you moved towards the village where the shots were coming from;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Well, I think, since the communications were not working, I tried

 5     to contact someone who was on my right-hand side, on the right-hand

 6     flank.  I must say that in such situations, that's the rule, that is what

 7     you try to do.

 8        Q.   My question was not whether you tried to communicate with someone

 9     else.  My question is:  You moved towards that direction.  Was that to

10     try to have a physical contact with the unit -- the group on your right,

11     so you moved towards the direction where the shooting was coming from?

12        A.   Well, in my view, if things could not be checked by way of

13     communications, the rule was to try to link up with the group that was

14     closer to what was going on, and that may have been the case then too.

15        Q.   Did you or did you not move towards the village -- towards the

16     direction where you heard shooting?

17        A.   I think I did move in that direction.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And that took you at the edge or at the outskirts of,

19     as you called it, the hamlet of Grubori; correct?

20        A.   I cannot claim whether it was a hamlet or whether it was Grubori.

21     I think that I met up with someone who was on my right.  Now, who that

22     was and whether I actually did link up, I cannot say that now with any

23     degree of certainty.

24        Q.   But you did reach what appeared to be the beginning of a hamlet

25     or a village.  You saw some houses there, and my understanding from your

Page 28108

 1     testimony is you did not go in the village or the hamlet, but you were

 2     right at the outskirts of it.  Is that right?

 3        A.   I did not see the village and I did not enter it.  But when I

 4     turned to the right, I reached a clearing, a meadow.

 5        Q.   And when you reached that point, you saw some houses on fire; is

 6     that correct?

 7        A.   I did not see houses visually from that spot.  I just saw

 8     something that looked like smoke, as if something was on fire or

 9     something.

10        Q.   Let me get back to this.  Let me go to page 139 of this interview

11     that is on the screen now.  And there is, at line 13 in the English,

12     line 16 in the B/C/S, the question is put to you:

13             "Okay.  So did you and the men under your command take up a

14     position anywhere near the village of Grubori?"

15             And your answer:

16             "So we reached one of the groups at the edge of the village.  We

17     did not enter the village.  After we reached one of our groups, we turned

18     back to the line of the search and continued with it."

19             Does that refresh your memory as to whether you came to the edge

20     of the village of Grubori on the 25th of August?

21        A.   It's hard to say now.  You say that I got to the village of

22     Grubori.  I cannot claim that, because I did not see the buildings.  Had

23     I linked up with one of the groups, well, that is probably true, that I

24     did.

25        Q.   That you did what?  I didn't understand the last part of your

Page 28109

 1     answer.  What is it true that you probably did?

 2        A.   I'm saying this now on the basis of memory.  I assume this is how

 3     things developed.  I know that I turned right, that I reached a meadow, a

 4     group there, and that we linked up there.

 5        Q.   And when you arrived there, you also saw other members of the

 6     Lucko unit leaving Grubori; correct?

 7        A.   Well, I saw a group coming from the direction of -- well, the

 8     direction of that smoke.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And in that group were a number of people, including

10     Mr. Drljo, Mr. Beneta, and Mr. Delimar; correct?

11        A.   I think the answer is yes.

12        Q.   Well, is it yes or is it not yes?

13        A.   I think it's yes.  Well, yes.  I mean, you are leading me now to

14     say something on the basis of memory, whether it was that way or not.

15     Since there were several people there, I cannot say with full certainty

16     that they were coming exactly from that direction, specifically from the

17     direction of the village of Grubori.

18        Q.   Well, let me show you what you told the investigative judge in

19     Croatia in December of last year, a few months ago.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can have 65 ter 7544 on the screen.

21        Q.   And the Presiding Judge showed you this document a little

22     earlier.  And before I ask you specific questions from it, as soon as it

23     comes up on the screen, if we can go to the last page.

24             Is that your signature at the bottom right?  Well, top right in

25     the B/C/S version.

Page 28110

 1        A.   Yes, yes.

 2        Q.   And it also says that that record was read back to you and that

 3     you listened to the judge's dictation, and you therefore signed it.  Do

 4     you remember doing that?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you also remember being cautioned before the interview that

 7     giving a false statement was a criminal offence?

 8        A.   Probably, yes.

 9        Q.   Let me go to page 3 in the English and page 2 of the B/C/S.  And

10     in the English, in the paragraph that starts at the middle of the page,

11     the third sentence on the fourth line in the English, after the list of

12     names, the first four names that are mentioned, the sentence after the

13     next one says:

14             "To the next question by the same person, I answer that I saw

15     about 15 members of the Lucko Anti-Terrorist Unit leaving the village of

16     Grubori, and among them I recognised Berislav Galic, Franjo Drljo,

17     Igor Beneta, Ivica Delimar, and Marijan Husko, but I do not remember the

18     others."

19             Now, did you remember saying that to the judge in December of

20     last year?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   So you told him that they were leaving the village of Grubori.

23     Does that refresh your memory today as to whether these members were

24     leaving the village of Grubori?

25        A.   Well, I cannot say with full certainty.  When I gave this a bit

Page 28111

 1     of thought later on, maybe it wasn't the village of Grubori.  I cannot

 2     say with 100 per cent certainty that it was from Grubori that they were

 3     coming.

 4        Q.   And if we go up to the previous paragraph on the same page, about

 5     five or six lines from the bottom of that paragraph, you also say:

 6             "I saw some houses on fire in the village of Grubori."

 7             Does that refresh your memory as to whether you had seen any

 8     houses on fire in Grubori?

 9        A.   Again, I will repeat what I said.  Now, whether that was the

10     village or hamlet of Grubori, I cannot claim that with 100 per cent

11     certainty.  I spoke on the basis of memory, the direction that they were

12     coming from.  I mean, I assume that they were coming from the village of

13     Grubori.

14        Q.   When you saw your colleagues from the Lucko unit leaving or

15     coming from the direction of Grubori, what did they tell you?

16        A.   Well, they didn't tell me anything.  I probably asked someone

17     what had happened, and he probably answered that nothing had happened,

18     that the Chetniks were fleeing into the hills and that we were chasing

19     after them.

20        Q.   Well, "nothing happened" and "Chetniks are fleeing up the hill

21     and we're chasing them" is not the same thing, is it?

22        A.   Well, you see, in these events we do not attach importance to

23     this regular kind of thing that happens.  We always go ahead.  What had

24     already happened no longer matters.  Maybe someone told me that nothing

25     had happened or that there was nothing that was important that they were

Page 28112

 1     supposed to tell me.

 2        Q.   The whole purpose of these mopping-up operations were to make

 3     sure that there were no Chetniks or enemy soldiers or terrorists in those

 4     hamlets, so are you telling me that information about possible Chetniks

 5     that are fleeing is not significant?

 6        A.   No, no, you misunderstood me.  I am not saying that that was

 7     irrelevant, that the Chetniks were fleeing and that we were after them.

 8     That was our priority.  They were fleeing, and we were chasing after

 9     them.  So what had happened before was no longer important.

10        Q.   So why did you tell the investigative judge, and it's at the

11     bottom paragraph on that page, that they told you nothing happened, when,

12     in fact, they told you that there were Chetniks there and that you had to

13     chase them?

14        A.   Well, I cannot say.  I probably asked what happened, and they

15     said, Nothing, the Chetniks are fleeing.  You see, perhaps you find that

16     strange.  Communication among us in the field is that way, it's simple.

17        Q.   Let me just, for the record, go to your interview with the Office

18     of the Prosecutor in 2004, 7546 -- 65 ter 7546.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  And since these are not in evidence, I'll just

20     briefly, Mr. President, move through a few items just for the record.

21             And if I can go to page 139 first.  And, Your Honour, we can take

22     the break right after this exercise.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  We will.

24             MR. HEDARALY:

25        Q.   You see, first of all, just for context, at the bottom of

Page 28113

 1     page 139, when you said that you reached the edge of the village, then

 2     there was a question:

 3             "Did you remain with one of your groups for a period of time?"

 4             If we can turn the page.  And your answer then was:

 5             "When we reached this -- this group of our men, we were -- it was

 6     told that somebody had run away to the hills, so basically we returned to

 7     our line of search and continued in that direction."

 8             Then if we move forward to page 144, at line 16 the question is

 9     put to you:

10             "Okay, you say that you heard a message saying that some people

11     had fled.  Do you know who relayed that message?"

12             Then again you say that it was said that somebody had escaped

13     through the bushes, towards the mountaintop, that you tried to move back

14     the search lines.

15             And, finally, page 151, at the bottom, for the third time you

16     mention that men had ran away from that village.

17             And then I just showed you, to the judge you said that the

18     response you got from your colleagues was that nothing had happened, and

19     I understood your answer to mean that both of these things could have

20     been said.

21             And just before we take the break, I just want to confirm that

22     you, yourself, you did not see any terrorist, or any Chetnik, or anyone

23     else, for a matter of fact, except colleagues of yours from the Lucko

24     unit on that day.  Correct?

25        A.   Yes, I did not see them.

Page 28114

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. Zinic.

 2             Mr. President, if we could have the break.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  We'll have the break, and we'll resume at 10 minutes

 4     past 6.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, you may proceed.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Zinic, on the 25th of August, you also did not see anyone

10     from your unit with a prisoner that day; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Either during the operation, at the end of it, or at any time did

13     you see a prisoner with anyone from your unit on the 25th of August?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   And you also testified, if I understood correctly, that after the

16     operation, you never really knew what happened in Grubori later that day

17     or the following days.  Right?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Now, you stated to the investigative judge in Croatia that a year

20     ago or so, you heard that Igor Beneta and Ivica Delimar may have been

21     responsible for the liquidations and arsons in Grubori.  Do you remember

22     saying that to the investigative judge?

23        A.   Well, the question was whether I had perhaps heard that in

24     informal conversations.  It was said somewhere, but it could be all sorts

25     of things.  It can also be misconstrued, planted.  I mean, I didn't take

Page 28115

 1     it seriously.

 2        Q.   But that's just something that you heard informally recently;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Well, it wasn't recently, it was a few years ago, but it's true.

 5        Q.   And can you -- do you know which group Mr. Beneta and Mr. Delimar

 6     were part of on the 25th of August?

 7        A.   I wouldn't know.

 8        Q.   Were they in your group?

 9        A.   I think they weren't.

10        Q.   And after arriving to the edge of Grubori or to the location

11     where you saw your colleagues come from, what did you do?

12        A.   I probably asked what was going on.

13        Q.   We talked about you asking what was going on and what the

14     response was.  After that, did you just carry on with your search or

15     resume to your position and carried out with your search?

16        A.   Well, no.  I think it was said that Chetniks were fleeing into

17     the woods, that there had been some kind of conflict, that the Chetniks

18     were fleeing into the woods, and that they should be chased.

19        Q.   Did you actually chase them?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Let me go to page 157 of the interview with the Office of the

22     Prosecutor that is on the screen.  And at the bottom, the question

23     starts -- I'm interested in your answer on the next page, but for the

24     full reference, at line 25:

25             "So at some point, did you come ... that it would be better to

Page 28116

 1     resume the search in the direction that you originally started?"

 2             Then there was a confusion, and then the question was rephrased:

 3             "Okay.  So at some point, did you feel that you'd lost the people

 4     that you were chasing out there?"

 5             And then if you turn the page, your answer is:

 6             "I mean, we generally did our job.  We did -- we were following

 7     our line of search.  We only paid attention in case we -- you know, to

 8     spot somebody, we just followed the procedure the way you're supposed

 9     to."

10             Then you say:

11             "It would be wrong to say that we chased after them.  That would

12     be wrong, because we did not chase after them."

13             So, Mr. Zinic, did you or did you not chase these Chetniks on

14     25th of August, 1995?

15        A.   I didn't see them.  I was told that they were fleeing into the

16     woods.  And what it says here, "jurnuli," "rushed after them," we didn't

17     do things that way.  That is not the way we operate, and that would not

18     be logical.  Since I had my direction in which I was supposed to move, it

19     was only natural that I would go back to my direction of movement.

20             Now, what you said, whether we found them, we were going after

21     them.  I did not see them.  I didn't see them afterwards, either, or

22     before that moment, when I was told that the Chetniks were fleeing into

23     the woods.

24        Q.   But you did not make any changes to go after them?  You simply

25     went back to your original route and carried on with your operation as

Page 28117

 1     you had before the shooting -- you heard the shooting; correct?

 2        A.   Well, you see, due to the configuration of the terrain, you seem

 3     to feel that you're moving along a flat land.  However, it was a very

 4     unfavorable configuration; bushes, rocks, crevasses.  It wasn't easy to

 5     move in a particular direction.  You had to overcome certain natural

 6     obstacles.  It wasn't easy to move fast.  It was raining, it was foggy,

 7     visibility was very limited.  From time to time, there was fog or the

 8     clouds would be low, and at some points in time, you couldn't see further

 9     than, say, 20 metres.

10        Q.   Can you please repeat for me the word that you said was the

11     chasing after, the rushing after?  Can you repeat it in B/C/S, please,

12     when you read the portion of your statement?

13        A.   You'll have to repeat that for me.  In which line was that?

14        Q.   I think it's at line 11 of the page that's on the screen now.

15        A.   "Jurnuli," that means to go after them quickly, to rush after

16     them.  That's why I said that that was wrong.  We moved as the

17     configuration of the terrain allowed us to move.

18        Q.   So what you're saying is that when you chased these Chetniks, you

19     didn't rush after them; you simply carried on along the usual speed and

20     were looking for them.  Is that what you're saying?

21        A.   Well, something like that.  That would be classical search of the

22     terrain, of course, with a higher degree of caution due to the

23     possibility of having contact.

24        Q.   I want to briefly touch upon your report or your reports for that

25     day.  I know it has been discussed extensively, so I don't want to go

Page 28118

 1     through the whole story.  But when you were told to write this report by

 2     Mr. Turkalj, what information, other than your memory, did you use to

 3     prepare your report?

 4        A.   As I said, I probably contacted someone from my group and I asked

 5     him.  Probably we came to some kind of a conclusion.  I asked whether he

 6     knew anything, and probably -- I mean, well, I cannot say exactly now,

 7     but I probably was talking to someone.

 8        Q.   Do you know who that person you probably were talking to in your

 9     group was?  We can look at the list of names in your report, if you want,

10     if that can help you.

11        A.   No, I think -- no, I cannot remember now.  I really cannot help

12     you at all.

13        Q.   So you probably talked to someone in your group, and I think you

14     said you also probably discussed these events with the other group

15     leaders that were in Mr. Turkalj's office.  Correct?

16        A.   Well, we talked in relation to what had happened and because of

17     the order that had been received, and a report had to be written, which I

18     found logical.

19        Q.   Did you also rely on other reports?  Did someone give you another

20     report, prepared by someone else, to use as a guide?

21        A.   No, no.

22        Q.   And did you include anything in your report that was based on

23     conversations either with the person in your group you talked to or the

24     other group leaders, but that you did not, yourself, witness that day?

25        A.   Well, probably someone did tell me, in conversation, that there

Page 28119

 1     had been a clash with the Chetniks in the village.

 2        Q.   So your report -- your report is not based only on your

 3     recollection of the events that happened, but also on this other

 4     information that you may have learned from these other people; correct?

 5        A.   Well, it's logical that I would ask the members of my group,

 6     because I was writing a report about the work of the entire group,

 7     whether there had been something that should be written up in the report.

 8        Q.   I'm not asking you whether it's logical or not that you would ask

 9     them.  I asked you that:  Your report was also based on these

10     conversations with other people that you had and not only on your own

11     recollection; correct?

12        A.   Well, we can say yes, yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, have you talked to anyone involved in the

14     Grubori operation about the events in Grubori since then?  I mean, in

15     recent years.

16             Let me rephrase that question.  I'm sorry.  Other than the

17     statements and interviews you gave to various authorities, did you talk

18     to anyone from the Lucko unit about what happened in Grubori in the

19     recent years?

20        A.   Well, yes, I did.

21        Q.   When did you talk to -- who did you talk to?

22        A.   I talked to Marko Krpan.

23        Q.   Did you talk to anyone else?

24        A.   No, I don't think so.

25        Q.   And Mr. Krpan was in your group on the 25th of August; correct?

Page 28120

 1        A.   Yes, we were together.

 2        Q.   Is it possible that he is the person you contacted, after

 3     Mr. Turkalj ordered you to write the report, to discuss with him?

 4        A.   It is possible.

 5        Q.   Did you talk to Mr. Drljo about the incidents -- about the

 6     incident in Grubori?

 7        A.   No, not with him.

 8        Q.   Did you talk to Mr. Drljo about anything in the last, let's say,

 9     10 years?

10        A.   Well, we are on -- we are not on speaking terms.

11        Q.   Why are you not on speaking terms?

12        A.   Well, that's how he is.  He refuses to talk to me or to someone.

13     It's his right, it's his attitude.

14        Q.   Okay.  Do you know someone called Bozidar Smotalic?  And for the

15     record, that's S-m-o-t-a-l-i-c.

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   And do you know anyone called Zvonko Pausic, P-a-u-s-i-c?

18        A.   Zvonko Pausic, yes.

19        Q.   And he was the commander of the Zlatar Special Police Unit in

20     1995; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let me show you two statements that Mr. Pausic and Mr. Smotalic

23     gave, where they discuss apparently a conversation that they witnessed

24     between you and Mr. Drljo.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  And if we can have 65 ter 7657, and the second one

Page 28121

 1     is 65 ter 7658.  And just for the record, they are exactly identical,

 2     except for the name of the person who gave the statement.

 3        Q.   And I just want you to look at it and just comment briefly if

 4     that is accurate -- if that is consistent with your recollection.  Maybe

 5     if you just read it, it's going to be easy -- simpler than me reading it

 6     on the record.  And maybe we can turn the page in the English just for

 7     everyone to see the end.

 8             Please let me know when you are finished reading.

 9             Have you had a chance to read that document?

10        A.   Yes, I have.

11        Q.   And is that a conversation that you had with Mr. Drljo that is

12     recorded there?

13        A.   There was an attempt at conversation, but I think it was before

14     this time.  Drljo tried to speak with me about the reports.  However, as

15     I can see, we ended that conversation by him saying that I wrote that

16     report in 1997 on Sacic's order.  I tried to tell him that it was in 1995

17     and that it is incorrect that it took place in 1997.  The only thing I

18     don't know is the thing about Bozidar Smotalic.  I don't know who he is.

19     I don't think he was there.

20        Q.   What is reported in this report, that is essentially an accurate

21     reflection of a conversation that you had with Mr. Drljo; is that what I

22     have to understand?

23        A.   Yes, this is completely wrong.

24        Q.   What is completely wrong?

25        A.   The fact that Smotalic was there.

Page 28122

 1        Q.   Leaving aside the presence of Mr. Smotalic, what is recorded

 2     there as a conversation between you and Mr. Drljo, just the contents of

 3     that conversation, leaving aside who was present, is that a conversation

 4     that you had with Mr. Drljo that is reported there or is it not?

 5        A.   No, this was not the conversation.

 6        Q.   What was the conversation that you remember having with Mr. Drljo

 7     about the reports?  Without referring to that document, from your memory,

 8     what is the conversation you remember having with Mr. Drljo?

 9        A.   As far as I remember, he came to me to speak about the reports

10     which were written.  He was trying to say that we drafted those reports

11     on Sacic's orders and that we had to put in what he told us, as well as

12     that we wrote that in 1997.  I told him that that was not true.  We

13     didn't write it in 1997, and we did not write it on Sacic's orders.  The

14     reports were written based on Turkalj's oral order conveying Mr. Sacic's

15     written orders.

16        Q.   Was Mr. Zvonko Pausic present at that conversation you had with

17     Mr. Drljo?

18        A.   No.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, because I did not read it in the

20     record, it may make sense just to have these two documents in evidence.

21     I can state for the record that these were statements that were found

22     during the search of Mr. Drljo's residence.  That is the information we

23     have.  I don't know if they should be admitted under seal, if they are

24     admitted for that reason.  I just don't think it's worth reading it on

25     the record.  The witness testified about it, and maybe for the sake of

Page 28123

 1     completeness, we can have those marked and admitted.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour, generally I don't have an

 4     objection, but we just really don't have a foundation as to a date or

 5     really any foundation from where -- other than what Mr. Hedaraly talked

 6     about, the documents having been found in a search at -- of Mr. Drljo's

 7     apartment.  I don't necessarily have an objection to the admission of

 8     these documents, but I'd just like a little bit more of a foundation

 9     laid.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, let me -- there is a conversation

12     that --

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Could I take it that it's not really an objection,

14     so therefore that's no reason not to admit it, and therefore I consider

15     this to be a request from Mr. Kuzmanovic to provide him with all

16     information you have available, and if that's not complete, then to see

17     whether we can find more information .

18             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's correct, Your Honour, thank you.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Any other observation?

20             If not, Mr. Registrar, the two documents would be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 7657 shall be

22     assigned Exhibit P2719.  And 65 ter document 7658 shall be assigned

23     Exhibit P2720.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

25             Just for my information, you say they are the same as the --

Page 28124

 1     apart from the name.  Is the signature different?  Is it the signature of

 2     the person who took the statement or who gave the statement?  And if

 3     you'd just show it on the screen and then we have a look at it.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  I only have the English version with me so if we

 5     can have both of them side by side in the original, I think we'll be able

 6     to ascertain that.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Of the other one?

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, the two originals, if we can have them side

 9     by side.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One is with a kind of a -- yes, I see that one

11     is with and the other one is without a signature, and there's some

12     handwritten text which says "illegible."  Yes.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Let me just check.

16             P2719 and P2720 are admitted into evidence.  Please proceed.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Mr. Zinic, let's move to the second date, the Ramljani operation

19     on the 26th of August.  And can you just confirm that there was an

20     operation the following day in Ramljani?

21        A.   Yes, I can.

22        Q.   And you testified earlier today, and if you don't remember, I can

23     pull up your exact words, but you essentially testified that on your line

24     of the operation, nothing had happened and that you had not come under

25     fire; is that correct?

Page 28125

 1        A.   Yes, it is.

 2        Q.   And I think the Presiding Judge showed you your report for the

 3     day of Ramljani, where you said that you did come under fire.  Can you

 4     explain for the Court the discrepancy between your testimony that you did

 5     not come under fire and your report stating that you did come under fire?

 6        A.   It is probably due to my memory.  In my view, I don't think there

 7     were any events on the second day.  I had gone through a number of

 8     operations, and things get mixed up.  It's very difficult for me to say

 9     whether something happened a day or two later or before that, or a month,

10     for that matter --

11        Q.   And at the end of the operation, you were intercepted by

12     Mr. Markac and Mr. Janic; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And I know we went into some detail earlier -- or you went into

15     some detail with the Chamber about that incident.

16             And if we can just have, once again, 65 ter 7544, which is your

17     statement to the investigative judge.

18             And the Presiding Judge read you a portion of it.  I want to just

19     read you the portion that is following.  It's page 3 in the English and

20     page 2 in the B/C/S.  At the very bottom of the page in the English,

21     that's the portion the Presiding Judge read to you, that General Markac

22     was furious, he was shouting at Franjo Drljo specifically, saying that

23     houses in the village were set on fire and that some people were killed.

24     And then:

25             "He told us to return directly to Zagreb ..."

Page 28126

 1             If we can turn the page in the English:

 2             "... and said that people will be fired."

 3             Now, to your knowledge, Mr. Zinic, was anyone from the Lucko unit

 4     ever fired either for the incidents in Grubori or those in Ramljani?

 5        A.   Not to my knowledge.

 6        Q.   And you were sent back to Zagreb that day.  Were you aware that

 7     there were other units of the special police that stayed behind and

 8     carried on operations on the 27th and 28th of August?

 9        A.   I am not sure.  Perhaps a part of the unit did stay in the field,

10     indeed.  I don't know, in any case.

11        Q.   I'm asking you whether you were aware that other units of the

12     special police, other than the Lucko unit, did stay behind and did carry

13     out operations in the field on the 27th and 28th of August.  Did you know

14     that?

15        A.   I did not, but I did hear that some units did remain after that

16     date, although I'm not familiar with any details.

17        Q.   And you said that after that -- after you got intercepted by

18     Mr. Markac, and you went back to Gracac to collect your equipment and

19     then left for Zagreb, how long did you spend in Gracac at that time?

20        A.   You mean on that day when we went back to Gracac to pick up our

21     equipment and how much time we spent there?  Probably the time we needed

22     to pack up and go towards Zagreb.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Can we have P606 on the screen, please.

24        Q.   I just have a few more questions for you, Mr. Zinic.

25             And you'll see a report from the Lucko unit from 1998.

Page 28127

 1             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to page 83 in B/C/S and page 5 in the

 2     English.

 3             And, Your Honour, just for the Court's information, only a

 4     portion of the document was translated, the one that dealt with 1995.

 5     That's why the B/C/S version is much larger, but it's highly irrelevant.

 6     It talks about 1991 and so on.

 7             And this is the report of the --

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  We hear of no objections against this partial

 9     translation, so therefore please proceed.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11        Q.   So this is the section on Operation Storm.  And if we go to

12     page 85 in the B/C/S and the next page, page 6, in the English, there's a

13     sentence at the very top in the B/C/S, and in the English it's the third

14     paragraph, the last sentence, where it says:

15             "Mr. Drazan Curkovic, deputy commander of the Lucko ATJ, and

16     Assistant Commanders Josip Celic and Stjepan Zinic commanded the unit in

17     the field."

18             Is that accurate statement as to your role during

19     Operation Storm?

20        A.   No, I was not assistant commander in Operation Storm.  I was a

21     specialist training instructor at the time.  I saw that the report was

22     drafted in 1998.  Is that correct?  The author was probably not familiar

23     with the fact that I was not assistant commander.  I wasn't appointed

24     assistant commander by that time.

25        Q.   And other than the title of assistant commander, is it correct

Page 28128

 1     that you commanded these units in the field with Mr. Celic and

 2     Mr. Curkovic?

 3        A.   Well, I did.  I did have command responsibility in certain

 4     operations which took place, since I had the rank of instructor, and I

 5     did carry out command duties.  I also wanted to say that it only happened

 6     in such cases when all those senior to me were absent.  Only in such

 7     circumstances did I assume command.

 8        Q.   Okay.  I just want briefly to move backwards in time now to the

 9     7th of August.  And if we move to one page before in the B/C/S, and it's

10     the same page in the English, it says that your unit, together with the

11     joint forces, at 1400 hours prevailed.  I assume it's in the broader area

12     of Donji Lapac.

13             Now, is it correct that the special police were the first units

14     of the Croatian armed forces that entered Donji Lapac?

15        A.   I think it is.

16        Q.   And that was on the 7th of August, correct, 1995?

17        A.   I cannot confirm the dates.  It doesn't ring a bell.

18        Q.   Well, looking at the report, in the English, it's the page

19     before, but you have it in your language in front of you.  Do you have

20     any reason to believe that that date is inaccurate?

21        A.   Concerning your question about Donji Lapac?

22        Q.   Yes, that it was on the 7th of August?

23        A.   Well, no, I can't say whether it is correct or not.  I cannot

24     recall the date; hence, I cannot comment at all.

25        Q.   Okay.  And how long did you stay in Donji Lapac before moving on

Page 28129

 1     to the border area, as I understand?

 2        A.   In my opinion, I think we stayed until nightfall.  I believe by

 3     that time of day, we had movement to other areas, although I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   And when you entered Donji Lapac, there were only a few houses on

 5     fire; is that correct?

 6        A.   I don't know whether I saw a few.  There may have been a house

 7     here or there, but I wouldn't say a few or several.

 8        Q.   And after Donji Lapac, where did you go?

 9        A.   I'm really not sure.  I don't know.  I don't know where we went.

10        Q.   Let me just --

11        A.   Somewhere towards the border with Bosnia.

12        Q.   Let me just briefly, in the little time remaining, go to your

13     interview again, 65 ter 7544, hoping it can refresh your memory.  It's at

14     page 84.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Excuse me, Counsel.  7544 is a three-page

16     document.

17             MR. HEDARALY:  65 ter 7544.  I apologise.  Oh, 65 ter 7546.  I'm

18     sorry.  That's the interview.  The number was the statement.  Thank you,

19     Mr. Kuzmanovic.

20             Go to page 84, please.

21        Q.   And there's a brief summary here of your activity on the first

22     day, starting at line 17, and you can read it as I read the English:

23             "So by my calculations, then - correct me if I'm wrong - on the

24     first day you advanced down the Velebit, the second day you advanced to

25     the Gospic-Gracac road, the third day you believe was a free day, the

Page 28130

 1     fourth day you advanced on Lapac and then went to the Bosnian border, and

 2     on the fifth day you returned to Zagreb, you believe?"

 3             And at that time in 2004, you said:

 4             "Yes, according to how I think, yes."

 5             Does that refresh your memory as to your movements on those days?

 6        A.   I cannot be certain as to where we were in the course of those

 7     few days, but this is possible.

 8        Q.   And do you remember when you left on the 8th of August?  Was it

 9     at night or was it the following day?

10        A.   I don't even know where we started from.  I really can't say.

11        Q.   Did you ever go back to Donji Lapac after first going there and

12     leaving?

13             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Your Honour?

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I know that we've covered this with many other

16     witnesses, I know that the Chamber didn't ask any questions regarding

17     this issue, so I think -- I mean, we've gone into it some, but we're

18     beyond the scope of what the Chamber's discussed.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm just trying to recover my -- what I read

20     in the beginning of this session as to the subject matter.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  It's on page --

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  The Chamber also informed the parties that

23     questions may touch on events.  They did not, however.  That was in order

24     to give you an opportunity to prepare for that in case we would.  I think

25     it was clear that the other parts, that we would certainly deal with

Page 28131

 1     those, and that the Chamber was still considering whether or not to deal,

 2     in its examination, with this first portion.  We decided not to do that.

 3     So I think it's fair to say that your cross-examination -- of course,

 4     cross-examination is always, in view of Chamber witnesses, a bit odd, but

 5     would go beyond what we find in Rule 90(H), I think it is.  Unless, of

 6     course, you could say that this is a matter which could -- would be --

 7     would support your case.  At the same time, that's, of course, expected

 8     to be done when the parties are presenting their evidence, where we

 9     have -- at least for the time being, we have left that area.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, as you may have noticed, it was not

11     an area that was particularly -- of particular interest.  That's why I

12     kept it for the end.  So if the Chamber prefers, I have no problems in

13     completing my cross-examination.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Apart from that, the clock might encourage you

15     to do that as well.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, if you would have a fair expectation

18     that you could elicit something entirely new in this respect, the Chamber

19     considers it appropriate that you not go over the same ground again which

20     was dealt with in quite some detail with quite many witnesses.

21             MR. HEDARALY:  I understand, Your Honour.  But when we had a

22     witness here that may have been present, it seemed incumbent upon us to

23     at least address it with the witness.  But I understand the Chamber's

24     guidance, and as I said, that's the only reason why we proceeded, not to

25     then be told that we can't -- that we haven't fulfilled that Rule 90(H)

Page 28132

 1     obligation in that respect.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, will certainly not --

 3             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Sure, I understand that, Your Honour.  I mean,

 4     the OTP took two statements of this person prior to trial, and if they

 5     wanted to elicit that testimony, they could have called it in their case

 6     in chief.  So --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I think that Mr. Hedaraly announced that he

 8     had finished his cross-examination.

 9             Mr. Kuzmanovic, as matters stand now, could you -- are you still

10     on the same estimate?

11             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Roughly, Your Honour.  I think I could -- one to

12     one and a half.  I don't think I need two full sessions, Your Honour.  It

13     may be less, depending on what my review reveals this evening.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  I'll do my best to keep it to one, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, I'm not -- I'm thinking at this moment,

17     Mr. Kuzmanovic.

18             Could we move into private session for a second.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 28133

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23             We will adjourn, and the trial will resume on Thursday, the

24     15th of April, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom III.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

Page 28134

 1                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day of

 2                           April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.