1 Tuesday, 20 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in and around this
8 Mr. Registrar, will you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
10 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-06-90-T,
11 the Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina, et al. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 Mr. Balunovic, good morning to you. I would like to remind that
14 you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at the
15 beginning of your testimony, that you will speak the truth, the whole
16 truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: BRANKO BALUNOVIC [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, are you ready to continue your
21 MR. HEDARALY: Yes Mr. President. Thank you.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Hedaraly: [Continued]
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Balunovic.
24 MR. HEDARALY: Can we have P2718 on the screen, please.
25 Q. Mr. Balunovic, yesterday you discussed the operation in Grubori
1 on 25 August 1995
2 groups that were in charge of the -- of the operation. And I just want
3 to ask you whether the map that will come up on the screen for you, if
4 you can confirm that that accurately represents the axis of operations of
5 the four groups.
6 MR. HEDARALY: If we can just have the B/C/S enlarged, please.
7 Thank you.
8 Q. Can you confirm that this is -- accurately represents the axis of
9 operations of the four groups?
10 A. Yes, this accurately represents our deployment on the ground.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, at the beginning of the operation, Mr. Celic
12 told you that they there may be civilians and that they would have been
13 registered by UNPROFOR and that, therefore, nothing should happen to
14 them; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that's correct.
16 Q. And you testified yesterday about Mr. Jurendic, from your group,
17 finding two civilians, and that's at transcript reference 28346 to 348.
18 And then Mr. Celic told to you wait and that these civilians would be
19 collected; is that right?
20 A. Yes. At the very beginning of our search, we found the
21 civilians. However, I didn't speak to Mr. Celic. It was
22 Mr. Ante Jurendic who contacted him on the radio, and, as far as I can
23 remember, all of the communication involved the two of them. I was close
24 by and I could hear and see everything.
25 Q. And is it right that the reason that Mr. Celic wanted the
1 civilians to be collected was that he was worried that they may be harmed
2 by your group?
3 A. I don't know whether that was the reason. But I believe that
4 that was a planned procedure.
5 Q. Is it not the case that there were some members of your group
6 that he considered to be a little more extreme and that he was worried
7 that they would harm the civilians if he left them with your group or
8 with those members of your group?
9 A. That might have been a reason as well, yes.
10 Q. Now, as you proceeded on the operation, the shooting you heard
11 was from the -- was from your right; correct?
12 A. I don't know. I can't say that I heard shots from the right. I
13 actually told you that it was very difficult, and it is very difficult to
14 determine where shots come from, when you're in the field, as a result of
15 the configuration of the terrain. You have echo, forest, and all other
16 circumstances which may make it difficult to tell where a sound comes
17 from. But, yes, I did hear shots during our scouring of the terrain.
18 Q. And that when you heard the shots, you moved towards the
19 direction where they were coming from, which was the hamlet of Grubori,
20 and you ended up on the left of that hamlet; is that right?
21 A. Well, what I can remember at this moment is that there were
22 contacts on the radio, conversations on the radio, around Grubori, and
23 somebody said during that communication that they had encountered
24 problems in the village of Grubori
25 and I stopped their progress.
1 Q. And when you reached Grubori, or the hamlet where there was
2 trouble, the shooting had stopped; do you remember that?
3 A. I don't remember any such detail.
4 Q. Okay. Let me show you 65 ter 7548, which is the interview you
5 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2004 and see whether that
6 refreshes your memory.
7 MR. HEDARALY: And if we could have page 141, please. If we go
8 down the page.
9 Q. At the bottom it starts the question:
10 "So you heard what you believe were rifle shot [sic], how long
11 did they go on for?"
12 MR. HEDARALY: If we can turn the page.
13 Q. And your answer is:
14 "I cannot tell you how long it lasted, I can tell you that when
15 we moved from our search directions, to the left flank of this hamlet,
16 where we went to secure the left flank of that hamlet, by the time we
17 reached that hamlet, the shooting had stopped."
18 MR. HEDARALY: And if we can also go at page 146 of the same
19 interview, so a few minutes later. If we can move down a little bit.
20 Q. The question --
21 MR. HEDARALY: The bottom of the page, please. Thank you.
22 Q. The question at line 21 in English is:
23 "Okay. When you got to the village and took up your elevated
24 positions, were there still shooting being fire [sic] or had it stopped?"
25 And your response:
1 "At the time that we arrived, the shooting had stopped."
2 Does that refresh your memory as to whether the shooting had
3 stopped when you arrived at the edge of the hamlet of Grubori?
4 A. I can't say that this refreshes my memory. But since that
5 conversation took place while my memory was still fresh, and while I
6 remembered all those events better, I believe that this is an accurate
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Balunovic. That's fair enough.
9 And do you also remember that you only stayed there at the edge
10 of the hamlet for about 15 minutes?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. And while you were there, you could see other members of the
13 Lucko Unit in the hamlet; is that right?
14 A. Yes. I believe that I saw people moving about the village -- in
15 the village.
16 Q. And the people you saw moving were in special police uniforms;
18 A. During the operation, the time -- the weather was changeable. It
19 was raining, and a lot of people wore raincoats to protect themselves
20 from the rain. And I believe that those people that I saw mostly wore
21 such raincoats.
22 Q. And did you see any -- any -- as they were referred to, Chetniks,
23 in or around Grubori on that day?
24 A. No, I did not notice any such thing.
25 Q. And you also testified yesterday that you did not see any fire or
1 smoke coming from the village of Grubori
2 Office of the Prosecutor, you also stated that if someone threw a grenade
3 in a house, the fire could start only a half an hour later; is that
5 A. Well, I can't tell you precisely when the fire would start
6 burning. What I meant to say was that such a house did not have to start
7 burning immediately upon somebody threw a hand-grenade in it. What I'm
8 saying is that somebody could have thrown a hand-grenade in a house, and
9 it could, indeed, start burning, only half an hour later. That's what I
10 meant to say.
11 Q. Okay. And we'll get to your trip back to Grubori later. But
12 just briefly, when you went back to Grubori the first time with Mr. Sacic
13 and Mr. Celic, did you notice houses being burned?
14 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, there was at least one house on
15 fire, I can say now.
16 I remember a body that I saw in a burnt house, and the body was
17 charred as well.
18 Q. When you saw one house on fire, did that mean that at that time
19 one house was still burning, or are you talking about houses that had
20 been burnt recently?
21 A. No. The house was no longer on fire. On that day when we were
22 in Grubori, there was neither fire nor smoke, as far as I can remember,
23 so there had been burning before.
24 Q. And do you remember how many -- if you saw any other houses
25 having been burnt other than -- other than that one?
1 A. I can't tell you now. The scene of that body in that house is
2 what I remember. That's why I can be sure that I saw one such house. I
3 don't know. I can't remember any of the others. I can't remember now.
4 Q. And yesterday at 28351, for the record, you testified that you
5 believe some members of the Lucko Unit had hand-held rocket-launchers or
6 Zoljas on 25 August 1995
7 A. I believe that I said that there might have been people carrying
8 those weapons. Those were customary weapons, standard issue. So I
9 suppose that there were people who had them.
10 Q. Let me show you P625, which is a list of weapons that the members
11 of the Lucko Unit who participated in that operation had on that day.
12 I don't know, Mr. Balunovic, if can you see on the left side of
13 your screen. We can -- we can zoom -- we can zoom it. If you can't see
14 it, let us know.
15 Can you see that table and the entry with your name?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Can you, first of all, confirm that those were the weapons that
18 you had on that day, or that were assigned to you, next to your name?
19 A. I believe that this is an excerpt from a list, from our arms
20 depot, where you see who was issued with what, with what weapons. And
21 the weapons in question are those that were registered in the depot and
22 that would be returned to the depot if one of our members were -- was
23 being transferred to another unit or left the service.
24 The list would then be pulled out to see what weapons such a
25 person had been issued with and what weapons he was supposed to return.
1 The list did not contain any information about the number of
2 hand-grenades or Zoljas. Those were not weapons. Those were materiels
3 which was probably registered and recorded on different lists. They were
4 probably showing how many such things people and how many they used.
5 During the war, it was very difficult to keep precise records of -- of
6 the materiel, but when it comes to the weaponry, there were very precise
7 records as to how many of those were issued and to whom.
8 Q. Do you know how many -- you said that Zoljas would not appear on
9 that list but that they were standard issue. Do you know how many would
10 have been issued, for example, in your group on that day?
11 A. No, I wouldn't be able to tell you. I don't have that
13 Q. Can you tell us approximately? Would it be one usually per
14 group, or one per unit? Or can you give us any -- any frame of reference
15 as to how many of those -- how many Zoljas would be in the group? I know
16 you can't remember specifically, but just give us a sense.
17 A. No, I can't give you even an approximate number.
18 During war operations, and during war, before that particular
19 operation, people could obtain those things either from our depot or when
20 we captured enemy soldiers. They could keep their weapons, be it
21 hand-grenades or Zoljas and continue using them in further operations.
22 Therefore, it was very difficult to know who had them and how
24 Q. And do you remember hearing any Zoljas being fired on the 25th of
25 August at the Grubori operation?
1 A. Well, besides our unit, there were other units in the field, and
2 I remember that there were a few detonations during that operation, but I
3 can't tell you from which position the sound came.
4 As I'm saying, there were several other units in addition to
5 ours, so it is -- I'm not sure whether that sound came from our group or
6 from one of the neighbouring groups.
7 Q. You just testified earlier today that could you see some members
8 of the special police with raincoats that they wore. What -- what colour
9 were their raincoats, or can you describe them for us?
10 A. I can't tell you the exacts colour, because when you are at a
11 distance it is not easy to tell. But I can assume that those raincoats
12 were either dark green or camouflage raincoats. I, myself, had one such
13 raincoat and I used it from time to time. In that particular operation,
14 I can't remember even what type of raincoat I had on me.
15 Q. Let me move to the next day, the second day of the operation, the
16 Ramljane operation. And I know you testified about this quite a bit
17 yesterday so I only have a few questions.
18 And at 28360, you stated:
19 "Someone opened fire, and we noticed two uniformed individuals
20 ahead of us. I think somebody said that they were shooting at us and
21 people fired back at them. I think that both of them fled."
22 Now, do you remember hearing at some point that these shoots, in
23 fact, came from HV soldiers?
24 A. No, I don't remember.
25 Q. Let me show your interview again, 65 ter 7548.
1 MR. HEDARALY: And if I can start at page 288.
2 Q. And you see at line 10 in the English it starts:
3 "Did you hear any weapons being discharged?"
4 And then your answer is:
5 "There was some shooting. I do not know from which group,
6 allegedly they saw two persons, they referred to them as Chetniks, that
7 they fired at them.
8 "Q. And to your knowledge, were any people captured?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Okay. And was this soon after the search started?"
11 MR. HEDARALY: If we can turn the page.
12 Q. Answer:
13 "I cannot tell because I cannot remember when we started the
14 search, and I cannot remember how long it lasted, so I cannot tell you."
15 Then the question is:
16 "Did you -- did your, the group under your command, did you get
17 asked do assist in relation to these two Chetniks that came into view and
18 be been seen?"
19 And your answer there is:
20 "No, far as I can recall, I think what happened was that these
21 two Chetniks, alleged Chetniks, were members of the Croatian Army, who
22 were at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
23 "Q. Okay. Were they identified?
24 "A. I do not know, I don't think so."
25 MR. HEDARALY: Turn the page one last time.
1 Q. "I cannot recall. I mean, this is one memory that I have. I
2 can't recall if I heard it through my -- the communication lines, this
3 being discussed, but somehow it's in my memory."
4 Now, Mr. Balunovic, do you remember ever hearing that the two
5 people that you were -- heard were shooting at your group were, in fact,
6 members of the Croatian Army who were at the wrong place at the wrong
8 A. But I am telling you, since I gave this statement earlier on,
9 when my memory was fresh, it's possible that things happened the way I
10 had put it then.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: The first part of the witness's answer was not
13 translated, Your Honour.
14 MR. HEDARALY: I heard it. It's on the transcript when the
15 witness said, I can't remember, but I heard it, but I think there was
16 some overlap.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we invite the witness to repeat his answer.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said was that I don't
19 remember now, or, rather, my memory is very poor, in respect of that
20 event. However, I made this statement when my memory was fresh, and it's
21 possible that it was that way or, rather, that I believe it was actually
22 the way that I had put it then.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That covers the whole of the answer,
24 especially the beginning, Mr. Kuzmanovic. Yes.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. And as far as -- as far as you can recall, you, yourself, did not
3 see any clashes with Chetniks that day; correct?
4 A. I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the word "carke" [phoen].
5 Q. You, yourself, did not -- were not involved in any exchange of
6 gun-fire with enemy -- with enemy forces; correct?
7 A. As far as I can remember, I did not open gun-fire, but I do
8 remember that there was fire.
9 Q. That's what I want to clarify. So you heard gun-fire, and then
10 you were told what it was by different people, but you, yourself, do not
11 know where or who was firing; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I think that's the way it was.
13 Q. Now you also testified at some length yesterday about the
14 argument between General Markac and Mr. Drljo at the end of that
15 operation. And you stated at 28363:
16 "If I remember correctly, he started," Mr. Drljo, "started
17 swearing and the oaths were directed at Mr. Markac. He said that he had
18 set alight everything, whatever he could or whatever he wanted."
19 Now, to your knowledge, was Mr. Drljo ever disciplined for
20 burning these houses?
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if we can get an exact citation to
22 that quote.
23 MR. HEDARALY: I think I just read it, 28363.
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: There it is. All right. Thank you.
25 MR. HEDARALY: You're welcome.
1 Q. Do you want me to repeat my question, Mr. Balunovic?
2 A. It's not necessary to repeat the question.
3 I would just like to say that this quotation does not match what
4 I had actually said.
5 Mr. Drljo said - most probably said - that he set everything on
6 fire and, What can you do to me? But the quote today was different.
7 Q. Okay. And do you remember whether Mr. Drljo was ever disciplined
8 for setting everything on fire, as you just put it?
9 A. Well, as far as I can remember -- or, rather, I don't remember
10 that he was disciplined in any way, but that does not necessarily mean
11 that that had not taken place.
12 Q. Okay. I want to now talk about your trips back to Grubori, when
13 you went back to Grubori on the following days and some source of
14 confusion I want to clear up with you.
15 Isn't it the case that you, in fact, went twice to Grubori, once
16 in a small group with Mr. Sacic and Mr. Celic; and the second time in a
17 larger group that also included Mr. Cermak?
18 A. I don't remember now. I think I was there only once. But I
19 don't remember whether I was there another time as well.
20 Q. We have still your interview on the screen.
21 MR. HEDARALY: If we can go to page 212.
22 Q. And you see at line 12, there's a question:
23 "Did you go to Grubori in a group containing Mr. Cermak?"
24 And then your answer:
25 "Yes, but I also went there the day before. The day I went with
1 Mr. Cermak is the day that he gave this statement for the television."
2 MR. HEDARALY: If you can go down.
3 Q. "I cannot recall if all of this happened in one day, or in two
4 consequent days. I went to the village once with Mr. Sacic and
5 Mr. Celic, I cannot recall if somebody else was there as well, when is
6 the first time I learned about these victims. And then, I do not recall
7 if it was the following day, or that same day when I went in the group
8 with Mr. Cermak."
9 MR. HEDARALY: If we can also go to page 284.
10 Q. And then at line 17 again:
11 "Q. I think you said you went to Grubori twice, is that
13 The answer is:
15 "Q. And the first time when you went there was it Mr. Sacic; is
16 that correct."
17 "A. Yes."
18 And then the same discussion happens when you say you don't
19 remember exactly when the second time was, the same or the next day. And
20 in your interview in 2005, a few months later, at 65 ter 7549 --
21 MR. HEDARALY: If we can have that as well, for the record.
22 Q. At page 75, there's a question about whether you went to Grubori
23 before or after the meeting in Knin.
24 And then if you -- if we move down:
25 "Q. Is it correct that at some time on whatever day it was, you
1 went into Grubori village with other members of the special police?"
2 Then your answer is:
3 "I was in the village of Grubori
4 of course, when I saw those bodies there."
5 MR. HEDARALY: Turn the page.
6 Q. "And the second time was when Mr. Cermak was making a statement
7 for the media there in that village."
8 MR. HEDARALY: Thank you.
9 Q. And then you were asked again:
10 "Can you just confirm that that was the same day or not?"
11 Once again you say:
12 "I cannot confirm that, I cannot negate that, I'm not sure about
14 So, Mr. Balunovic, reading these various portions of your
15 interview in 2004 and 2005, it is clear that you cannot recall whether
16 this all happened in one day or on two days, but at that time you seemed
17 quite sure that you went to Grubori twice. Does that -- having read
18 this, does that refresh any memory for you that you have been to Grubori
19 twice on that day or on those days?
20 A. Right now I cannot remember. But as I said earlier on, since
21 this statement was made before, and then my memory was fresh, I see that
22 that was the case, as is written there.
23 Q. And just for the record, in your interview, it is on that first
24 trip that the events that you described yesterday about seeing the dead
25 bodies, the dead animals, and Mr. Sacic examining one of the victims and
1 determining that it was not a knife wound but rather a gun-shot wound
2 where that occurred.
3 Now on that -- on that trip or on the first trip, was there a
4 Mr. Vranjkovic from inner control with you? Do you remember that?
5 A. I do not remember Mr. Vranjkovic now. Maybe that was the case,
6 but I cannot say anything for sure now.
7 Q. The trip where you remember where Mr. Cermak gave a statement to
8 the media, do you remember if that was at the same time that members of
9 civil protection were there to collect the bodies in Grubori?
10 A. Unfortunately, I cannot remember now. I told you already that I
11 can barely remember any of this.
12 Q. Okay. One thing that you did remember for sure, there was
13 that when you went back to Grubori the first time you had left from
15 that right?
16 A. Yes, that's the way it was.
17 Q. So since you were in the operation in Ramljane on the 26th of
18 August, the earliest that that could have happened would be on the 27th;
19 would you agree with me?
20 A. Yes, I agree.
21 Q. Now, you also testified about a meeting in Knin including,
22 Mr. Cermak, Mr. Sacic, Mr. Celic, and some members of the fundamental
23 police and that you can't recall whether that meeting was before or after
24 you went to Grubori. I'll suggest to you that it's also possible that if
25 you did go to Grubori twice that that meeting happened between the two
1 trips which could be an extra source of confusion for you.
2 Does that refresh, at all, your memory about whether you've been
3 to Grubori once or twice or when that meeting took place? And I
4 understand that -- that your memory is not -- is not very precisely on
5 this, but if -- if that helps at all ...
6 A. Well, you see, I don't want to say anything that I'm not
7 100 percent sure of now. Unfortunately, I am not sure, still, as to how
8 things went.
9 Q. I understand that, Mr. Balunovic. I'm not trying to make you say
10 anything that is not correct. Just trying to help as we go along if
11 anything refreshes your memory.
12 Now you said you remember very little from that meeting, but you
13 did remember that someone said that an on-site investigation should be
14 conducted, and you also recall that Mr. Sacic was shouting. Now, do you
15 remember who he was shouting at?
16 A. No. I don't remember who he was shouting at, as I've already
17 said. Perhaps I wasn't even present throughout the meeting.
18 As for the people attending the meeting, they were at a level
19 that was way too high for me, as far as hierarchy was concerned, so I
20 don't think that it was right for me to be there. It's possible that I
21 walked out at a certain point in time, that I wasn't present throughout.
22 Q. Now, do you remember anyone else shouting or raising their voices
23 in that meeting, either in response to Mr. Sacic or just generally?
24 A. No, I do not recall.
25 Q. Do you remember Mr. Cermak being angry or raising his voice?
1 A. No, I do not recall.
2 Q. And you also testified yesterday that at some point in Grubori
3 there were people taking photographs of the bodies.
4 Now, do you know if these people had come with you from Knin?
5 A. I don't know whether they came together with us from Knin.
6 Q. Okay. Let me move to the -- to the reports that were -- that
7 were prepared with respect to the operations in Grubori. And you've
8 discussed these yesterday already.
9 Now, you were aware, weren't you, that Mr. Celic's report had
10 been dictated to him by Mr. Sacic?
11 A. Yes. Mr. Celic told me something about that, or, rather, that he
12 had received information from Mr. Sacic.
13 Q. And yesterday at 28393 through 95, you also testified that you
14 prepared your report based on a piece of paper but that you were not sure
15 whether these were written instructions given to you or whether you had
16 jotted some notes down while Mr. Celic was speaking in the meeting.
17 Now, my question for you is: In any case, what I wanted to make
18 clear was that the substance of what you wrote in your report came from
19 Mr. Celic; is that correct?
20 A. Well, I think I've already explained that. That report partly
21 consists of my personal observations in the field, and there's another
22 part that contains the information I received from Mr. Celic.
23 Q. And your understanding is that the information that Mr. Celic
24 provided to you, he had gotten, in turn, from Mr. Sacic; right?
25 A. Yes. Mr. Celic had gotten that from Mr. Sacic.
1 Q. And you prepared your report based on this information, and
2 essentially you just assume that this information that you received, of
3 which you were not aware, personally, was accurate; correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And you wrote the report, your report, five or six days later, at
6 the Lucko base; is that correct?
7 A. Well, I don't remember exactly how many days after the operation
8 that happened, but we did write -- or, rather, I wrote a report at the
9 Lucko base.
10 Q. Let me just show you 65 ter 7541. And this is your interview
11 with the investigating judge in Croatia
12 MR. HEDARALY: If we can go to page 5 of the English. And I
13 think it's page 3 of the B/C/S, although I haven't written it down.
14 Q. It says there:
15 "I wrote the report at the Lucko Anti-Terrorist Unit base five to
16 six days after the operation."
17 That's what you stated in December of last year. Does that --
18 does that refresh your memory as to when you wrote the report?
19 A. Again, I cannot be sure of when it happened, but it's possible
20 that it was five or six days after the operation; however, I'm not sure.
21 Q. Now, was there a meeting later on, either in 1997 or 2001, when
22 these -- where these -- where these events were discussed again by the --
23 in the Lucko base with Mr. Celic and -- and the different group leaders?
24 A. I don't remember that.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Balunovic.
1 MR. HEDARALY: Mr. President, I have -- actually I may have a
2 further question.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. HEDARALY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.
6 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Balunovic?
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, I am, Your Honour. I just need to get set
8 up, I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Balunovic, you will now be cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic.
11 Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:
13 Q. Morning, Mr. Balunovic.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. I just wanted to follow up on a question before I get into the
16 substance of my cross-examination that was asked to you -- asked of you
17 by Mr. Hedaraly of the Prosecutor's office.
18 It involved the Ramljane operation on August 26th, and
19 Mr. Hedaraly referred to your OTP -- statement that you gave to the
20 Office of the Prosecutor on -- in November of 2004, which is 65 ter 7548.
21 There was a discussion about -- you said something about HV
22 members being shot at, being people at the wrong place at the wrong time.
23 And in that conversation that you had with the Office of the Prosecutor,
24 you said you could not recall, and I think the exact quote on page 288
25 is, "I cannot recall it being discussed," meaning the issue of whether
1 the people being shot at were HV members at the wrong place at the wrong
3 Today, on page 11 of the transcript, you said:
4 "I believe it was actually the way I had put it then," meaning
5 that you thought your recall back in 2004 was better than your recall
6 here today in 2010.
7 Now, it's true is it --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly, yes, please proceed.
9 Mr. Kuzmanovic.
10 MR. HEDARALY: You can ask your question now.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: All right. Thank you.
12 Q. My question is, Mr. Balunovic: Back in 2004, you said you could
13 not recall. So you're is essentially confirming, in 2010, that what you
14 said in 2004 is that you could not recall?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
16 MR. HEDARALY: Your Honour, that is a mischaracterisation.
17 If we can have the quote on the screen. It is going to be clear
18 what the question was, and what the answer, I cannot recall, too, was,
19 but was -- to what reference.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Should preferably be put on the screen so that
21 we can follow the exact wording.
22 MR. HEDARALY: And the specific question starts at page 289 at
23 the bottom, and the answer that Mr. Kuzmanovic is quoting is at the
24 following page, 290.
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If you could refer, please -- I'm referring to
1 the transcript by the page numbers in the transcript. So that's page.
2 JUDGE ORIE: If the numbers given by Mr. Hedaraly bring you to
3 the same page in the transcript, perhaps you verify before -- I think the
4 previous page will contain the question, isn't it?
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes.
6 Q. "Why do you think they were members of the HV," is the question.
7 And the answer is:
8 "I cannot recall. This is one memory that I have. I can't
9 recall if I heard it through the communication lines, this being
10 discussed, but somehow it's in my memory."
11 The fact of the matter is, Mr. Balunovic, you can't recall
12 whether these people being shot at were members of the HV; correct?
13 A. Yes, I agree.
14 Q. Mr. Balunovic, did you ever speak to General Markac about the
15 events of the 25th of August, 1995?
16 A. As far as I can remember, I think I did not.
17 Q. And other than overhearing General Markac on August 26th, the
18 following day, did you ever speak to General Markac about the events of
19 August 26th, 1995
20 A. Again, as far as I can remember, I think I did not.
21 Q. To your knowledge, did General Markac ever pressure, threaten, or
22 coerce anyone in the Lucko Unit to write a report -- to write or report,
23 that the events which occurred on August 25th were the result of armed
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now, General Markac was not in Grubori on August 25th, nor was he
2 in Grubori on August 27th, when you went to Grubori with Mr. Sacic,
3 Mr. Turkalj, and Mr. Celic; is that correct?
4 A. Well, I don't remember Mr. Markac at all from that area, so I
5 don't think he was there.
6 Q. Did you ever hear from anyone that General Markac tried, in any
7 way, to cover up the events of Grubori?
8 A. No, sir, I never heard that.
9 Q. Were you aware that what occurred in Grubori was reported in the
10 media shortly after the 25th of August?
11 A. I don't remember. I don't remember any of the media coverage. I
12 believe that I remember a press statements given by Mr. Cermak for
13 television. But, honestly, I wasn't following all that at the time.
14 Q. I understand that, Mr. Balunovic, I guess my question was more
15 general. Were you aware at the time of the events at the end of
16 August of 1995 that what occurred in Grubori was reported in the media,
17 not specifically what was reported but that, in general, it was reported
18 in the media?
19 A. Well, yes, I remember that the media wrote about that.
20 Q. Mr. Balunovic, I -- during questioning by Mr. Hedaraly today
21 there was a discussion of the two civilians that were found on the 25th
22 that ended up -- Mr. Celic ended up escorting instead of Mr. Jurendic.
23 Do you remember that discussion?
24 A. Yes. I can't be sure whether Mr. Celic personally came or
25 whether he had dispatched one of his staff members to take those
1 civilians over. I believe that after that, Mr. Jurendic proceeded with
2 what he was doing before.
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I apologise, Your Honour, the next document I
4 want to use, I thought I had it here, but let me just take a minute to
5 find it, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Are you moving to a different subject or ...
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: It's on the same subject, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell me once you finish this
9 subject, because I would have a question.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
11 If we could please pull up P577, page 5 of that document. If we
12 could enlarge that, please. And go to page 5.
13 Q. Mr. Balunovic, this is a special police document, and if we have
14 an English version of this document, please.
15 Before we do that, Mr. Balunovic, so you can get oriented with
16 the document, this is a document in which -- which details the -- what
17 was found in various search operations by the various special police
18 units. And the document here - if we could go to page 5 of the English,
19 please, as well - shows the date of August 25th, 1995, and the various
20 special police units that were involved. And it shows on the bottom a
21 total of civilians, which is the far right-hand column that was -- that
22 were found as 64, and I note that in P605, which also deals with this
23 date, there's a note that there was 73 total people found. There are no
24 civilians found in the area in which Lucko was involved. Do you see
25 that? There's dash signifying basically a blank. Do you know anything
1 about that?
2 A. No. I wouldn't know who or how they collected this information.
3 I told you that, at the beginning of that search, around the
4 village of Grubori, we found two civilians, as far as I can remember.
5 Q. In addition, there's - at least from this document -- when it's
6 under armed combat, or armed contact, I should say, combat contact in the
7 third column, under Lucko, it says: No.
8 As well as prisoners in the third -- or captured in the
9 third-last column, that's also blank; correct?
10 A. Yeah, I can see it here. But as I've already told you, I don't
11 know who and how they collected this information.
12 As for the other thing, I can't be sure, but I remember and I can
13 claim that we did find two civilians, yes.
14 Q. In the reporting, regarding what occurred on August 25th, 1995
15 you discussed both in your testimony yesterday and, to some extent,
16 today, that you were given instructions by Mr. Celic on what to write.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And I'd like to refer to 65 ter 7650, please.
18 If we can get that up on the screen. Page 5 of 6 in the English.
19 7650, I'm sorry, my dyslexia affecting ...
20 Your Honour, I'm through with that topic. I don't know if
21 Your Honour wanted to follow up on something before I move on?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed that in the reference to the -- to
23 the interview, Mr. Hedaraly was talking about two Chetniks or, perhaps,
24 two persons, perhaps wrongly referred to as two Chetniks had fired.
25 Whereas, in your question you interpret apparently the same passage, as
1 Chetniks that were fired at and that seems to be a rather different
2 understanding of what it is.
3 Now, reading the text, I do not find reference to -- do not find
4 any reference to Chetniks fired at. So I'm wondering whether I
5 misunderstood your question, or whether you misunderstood or that we have
6 a different interpretation of the text. But then I would like to know
7 exactly what you rely upon to say that, in this interview, the witness
8 was talking about two Chetniks fired at. The ones who were in the wrong
10 Where do you find that these were people that were fired at?
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, if I said that, I misspoke. I
12 don't think I said that they were fired at. If I did, I misspoke. I'm
13 just saying --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm seeing -- let me just check.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: My concern there, Your Honour, was the issue of
16 how these two people were characterised, not necessarily on the issue of
18 JUDGE ORIE: And if that is not the issue, then I have no
20 I will just try to find -- it was right, relatively in the
21 beginning of your --
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's right, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see ...
24 MR. HEDARALY: It's page 20, line 9 of today's transcript,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is transcribed, Mr. Kuzmanovic, as there
2 was a discussion about -- you said something about HV members being shot
3 at, and that caused my confusion, but it has now been clarified.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I apologise for the confusion.
7 Q. Mr. Balunovic, back to 65 ter 7650, which is now on your screen
8 which is a February 25th, 2010, record of an examination in Zagreb County
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page 5 of 6, please. If we
11 could get the Croatian version up too, please, so the witness can follow.
12 Q. And I'm about a little more than halfway down the document. And
13 the English version, on the right, it says:
14 "When asked about the writing ..."
15 And, Mr. Balunovic, just let me know when you're in that section
16 of the document:
17 "When asked about the writing of reports on the first day ..."
18 In the Croatian version, it's closer to the bottom on the
19 right-hand side: "na daljinje pitanje vezano."
20 Did you find it?
21 A. To further questions by the --
22 Q. No, you -- you're mistaken, Mr. Balunovic. It is further up,
23 you'll see maybe seven or eight lines above that, "na daljinje pitanje
24 vezano za stavljanje."
25 A. Yes, now I can see that.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you. This section, I'll read to you, and then I
2 have a question about it, Mr. Balunovic:
3 "When asked about the writing of reports on the first day of the
4 operation, and if Celic instructed me what to write, I wish to say that
5 it is true. He gave such instructions not only to me, he also told other
6 group leaders what to write in the reports."
7 Now before I go on, were you present when Mr. Celic gave
8 instructions, not only to you, but to other group leaders? Were you
10 A. I believe that that was that meeting and that all of us were
12 Q. When you were at Lucko, did you write that report on the first
13 day of the operation on your own after these instructions were given to
15 A. As far as I can remember, I believe that I wrote my report on the
16 ground floor of the building in the meeting room or in the dispatch room.
17 And as far as I can remember, I had some notes on a piece of paper.
18 I repeat, I'm not sure whether those were my own notes, the notes
19 that I made during Mr. Coric's [as interpreted] presentation or if they
20 were a photocopy of something that had already existed. I don't know.
21 Also, I can't be sure, and I can't say with any degree of
22 certainty that somebody else was there writing their report at the same
23 time that I did. I'm not sure about that.
24 Q. Did anyone -- did Mr. Celic pressure you to write the report in
25 the way that he instructed to you write?
1 A. No. Actually, the way I understood all that was that that was
2 additional information that had to be included in the report. I didn't
3 not think that I was being instructed as to how to precisely word my
4 report but that my report should also contain that particular additional
6 Q. Okay. Going back to 65 ter 7650, the next sentence where we left
7 off is:
8 "I wrote down those instructions and wrote the report in
9 accordance with them. Celic then told me that he was only conveying the
10 instructions that he received from Sacic and what his directions were."
11 Now, the last sentence after that is:
12 "I am unable to say if such a report reflected the real events in
13 the field."
14 What did you mean by that last sentence, Mr. Balunovic?
15 A. What I meant was that, at the moment when I was writing the
16 report, I did not have any reason and I didn't dare doubt my superior's
17 words about what had happened. I did not have any reason to doubt
18 information provided to me by him. And by that, I primarily refer to
19 Mr. Sacic.
20 Q. Did anyone else, other than Celic -- I'll rephrase the question.
21 You said that Celic didn't pressure you to write what you wrote,
22 that he gave you instructions to write. Did anyone other than Celic
23 pressure you to write a report that wasn't true?
24 A. No, there were no pressures.
25 Q. This meeting took place in Lucko --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, have you -- have you dealt with the
2 report or ...
3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'm not going to deal specifically in the
4 written report, Your Honour, but I'm, for now, done with this section.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because I would like to ask you a follow-up
7 Mr. Kuzmanovic asked you what you meant when you said:
8 "I am unable to say if such a report reflected the real events in
9 the field."
11 "I was not entirely certain of this, even when writing the
13 Now your explanation was, more or less, I had no reason to doubt
14 the accuracy of the information I received. Well, that's completely the
15 opposite from what the text says. The text of your statement says, I
16 couldn't tell you what I did write down, whether that reflected what
17 really had happened. And then, even at the time when I wrote it, I was
18 not certain about whether that is what had happened. Which means, as far
19 as I understand it, but please correct me when I'm wrong, that you here
20 express your view that you did write a report on the information that was
21 given to you, of which you were not certain and you were unable to say
22 whether that reflects what -- what had happened.
23 Now, your answer, that you had no reason to doubt what you were
24 told may be true or not true, but, at least, what is said here is, When I
25 wrote it down, I didn't know, even at that time, whether that necessarily
1 was the truth.
2 Do you agree with me that that's what this language simply tells
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what I meant was that
5 I did not have direct knowledge about the information that was to be
6 included in the report additionally. I wasn't sure that things
7 transpired in that particular way because I did not have any direct
8 knowledge about the events, and that's why I said I wasn't sure that
9 things, indeed, happened the way somebody said that they had.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, in your statement, you said, I wasn't sure
11 that what I was writing down, on the basis of the information I received
12 at that time, was true or not; but I did it. And that's your explanation
13 of today, which is not what the text says, but which is an additional
14 explanation. I did it, because, at the time, although not knowing
15 whether it's true or not, I had no reasons to doubt what I was told that
16 had happened.
17 Is that correctly understood?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I did not have any reason to
19 doubt, and, as I've told you, I did not dare doubt the information
20 provided to me by my superior, and, having said that, I mean Mr. Sacic.
21 I believed that that was, indeed, the truth, but I could not be
22 sure, because I did not have any first-hand knowledge.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Balunovic, what is the purpose of all
24 of reporting, if you just write down what someone else says is the truth,
25 where you have no possibility to tell us whether it's the truth or not,
1 especially if you ask four persons to do the same, then it may create an
2 impression or a suggestion that you wrote down what you observed.
3 Otherwise, you would have expected you to write down what happened, I do
4 not know for sure, but I was told that this and this happens. And then
5 it's clear what the source of the information is; whereas, operating in
6 the way that was done, that creates a false image of reporting, on the
7 basis of the knowledge of the person that is reporting, rather than on
8 the basis of the knowledge of someone else who is not identified in that
10 Would you agree with me?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with you that it would have
12 been much better if I had stated that that was not my first-hand
13 knowledge, that I had, indeed, obtained information in a different way
14 and how I obtained it.
15 But let me tell you that, first and foremost, we were soldiers,
16 we were warriors. We were not so savvy when it came to writing reports,
17 and we did not really put them in the context into which they were put
18 today. We did not understand them that way.
19 I agree that it would have been much better if I had made a
20 remark that those -- that that was not my first-hand knowledge from the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, the reporting gives the false impression
23 that this is what you observed.
24 Would you agree with that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree with that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
3 Q. Following up with His Honour's questions, 65 ter 7542.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could get that up, please. Page 3 of 6 in
5 the English. It's the January 12th, 2010 record of witness interview in
6 the Zagreb County Court.
7 I just want to make sure we match up the Croatian and the
9 In the English version, it's the second sentence. Actually, the
10 first line.
11 Q. Mr. Balunovic, you added to your -- in this particular statement
12 in January of 2010, and I'll read this section.
13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could shift the Croatian over a little bit
14 more to the right so that the witness will be able to follow along. The
15 left side is cut off of the Croatian. There we go.
16 Q. "He gives the same statement as recorded on 16.12.2009 and adds:
17 I wrote a report on that event in which I stated that nothing happened
18 along the route I was taking, but I also cited what I had learned on the
19 event from Josim Calic."
20 I'm assuming that is Josip Celic, because in the Croatian it says
21 Josip Celic:
22 "He told me that he had been told by Sacic to write a report
23 stating that there was an armed conflict on that location and that some
24 civilians were killed in the conflict."
25 Now, Mr. Balunovic, this is a little bit more detailed
1 information than what you had supplied in the statement of -- the later
2 statement of 25 February 2010
3 But my question to you specifically is: If you were in the area
4 of Grubori on the 25th of August, and you did not see that there was
5 armed conflict on that location and that some civilians were killed in
6 the conflict, why, after the first time you said nothing happened, did
7 you write that there was an armed conflict?
8 A. After the end of the operation, I reported to Mr. Celic about
9 what had happened on my axis, and I told him that there had been no
10 incidents there. We found those two civilians, and he had already been
11 informed about that, even before I told him.
12 Q. Again, in follow-up to Judge Orie's questions, if, in fact, there
13 had been no armed conflict, what the reporting is suggesting is that
14 there was. Why?
15 A. I apologise. I didn't understand what your "why" refers to. Are
16 you asking me why I wrote what I did?
17 Q. [Microphone not activated] yes.
18 A. As I already told you, during the search, we did hear shots and
19 detonations. I was not in a position to establish where those had come
20 from, from which place. And when I heard what Mr. Sacic had told
21 Mr. Celic, I was inclined to believe that that was, indeed, how things
22 had transpired.
23 Q. Mr. Balunovic, was Celic your direct superior on August 25th of
25 A. He was.
1 Q. What function did Mr. Janic have on August 25th?
2 A. I'm not sure. He was at a higher level of command, and I was not
3 interested in that. I was only interested in the orders and commands I
4 received from my immediate superior. Therefore, I wouldn't be able to
5 tell you what was his exact position on that day. I believe that he was
6 in command of all units that were carrying out the search on that
7 particular day, but I'm not sure.
8 Q. Mr. Janic, then, at least as far as you can remember, was there
9 in the area on August 25th, 1995?
10 A. I don't remember having seen him on the 25th of August. But I
11 believe, it seems to me that he was in the area around Ramljane on the
13 Q. Who was your superior on August 26th in Ramljane?
14 A. Mr. Celic.
15 Q. And the -- the commander of your Lucko Unit was Mr. Turkalj;
17 A. Yes. At the time, Mr. Turkalj was the unit commander.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I just have two follow-up questions
19 and then we can go on the break, just to complete the theme, if that's
20 all right.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's all right with me.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
23 Q. Mr. Balunovic, there has been an assertion that these August 25
24 reports were written some years later, perhaps even as late as 2001. Do
25 you agree with that assertion?
1 A. I don't think that that's correct.
2 Q. What leads you to that conclusion?
3 A. I think I would remember if those reports had been written in
4 2001. I believe that they were actually compiled contemporaneously. I'm
5 actually almost sure that they were not written at a later date.
6 Q. Was Mr. Sacic present for that meeting in Lucko where the writing
7 of these reports was discussed?
8 A. I don't think so.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, just one more follow-up for
10 reference on the number of civilians on the 25th. We have got two other
11 exhibits. I think I mentioned P605; one more is P617. And that's all I
12 have on this topic. And we can move on, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will have a break.
14 Could you give us an estimate as to how much time you need after
15 the break?
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think I can finish within the
17 next session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 We will have a break, and we will resume at 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.19 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late start. There
23 was an urgent matter which we had to deal with during the break.
24 Mr. Kuzmanovic, are you ready to continue?
25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Balunovic, I want to go back for a couple of more questions
2 on the August 25th operation and matters related to that.
3 You were one of the -- the only one of the four group leaders to
4 have gone into Grubori on Sunday, August 27th, with Mr. Sacic and others;
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Did Mr. Sacic tell you in Grubori what happened in Grubori?
8 A. No. No, I don't remember that he said anything to me then.
9 Q. Did anyone ever tell you, when you were in Grubori on the 27th,
10 what happened there?
11 A. No. Again, I don't remember that anyone told me about what had
13 Q. Did you come to a conclusion at all as to what happened there,
14 when you were there on August 27th?
15 A. No, I did not come to any conclusion. I don't understand why it
16 happened. I didn't notice any of it. As I said, at least one house had
17 been burned down. There were persons who had been killed, but I do not
18 remember seeing smoke when it was on fire, so I was shocked. I did not
19 understand actually when it could have happened.
20 Q. Since you were the only group member in Grubori on the 27th, did
21 you, when you came back, talk to or discuss with any of the others, group
22 leaders, what you had seen?
23 A. As far as I can remember, I didn't talk to anyone.
24 Q. Before your meeting in Lucko, when the report -- your report was
25 written related to Grubori, did you talk to the other instructors about
1 what you had seen in your visit there?
2 A. I don't think I did. I don't think I talked to any of them
3 before that meeting about that.
4 Q. Now, you had testified earlier that Mr. Sacic never told you what
5 had happened in Grubori. You were in Grubori also with Mr. Celic, were
6 you not?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Did Mr. Celic, while you were in Grubori, ever tell you what
9 happened there, on the 27th?
10 A. I don't think he did. Actually, during that stay in Grubori - I
11 think I've already said this - I was not with the two of them all the
12 time. As far as can I remember, they searched the entire terrain. At
13 one moment, I was separated from them. I wasn't with them all the time,
14 that is.
15 Q. Between the time you were in Grubori on the 27th and the time you
16 wrote your report at the Lucko meeting, did you learn anything else about
17 what happened in Grubori?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. So the only people you could have learned, if -- if that's the
20 case, about what happened in Grubori from were Mr. Sacic and Mr. Celic;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Well, yes, I think that would be right.
23 Q. Celic was commanding the Lucko Unit on the 25th of August of
24 1995. Did he set down who should be in whose group and who the leaders
25 of the group should be on that particular day?
1 A. Mr. Celic was not leader of the group. He was assistant
2 commander of the unit; but on that day, he commanded the unit in that
3 operation, yes. He appointed the leaders of groups. And for the
4 selection of men, it did not follow a strict pattern. It was
5 spontaneous, as it were.
6 Q. And it was normal, as part of your training, was it not,
7 Mr. Balunovic, that whoever led the action would appoint the group
8 leaders, and then the group leaders would carry out the task of the
9 action; correct?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Were Mr. Radocaj and Mr. Sosa in your group on that day?
12 A. No. No, they weren't.
13 Q. Now, at the meeting in Lucko, you said earlier Mr. Drljo was
14 present when you were -- when the meeting was called by Mr. Celic;
16 A. Yes. I think that he was present at the beginning of the
17 meeting. However, at one point, he left, when he said that he would not
18 write a report.
19 However, I don't remember how long he actually stayed at the
21 Q. Was Mr. Turkalj present at this meeting?
22 A. I'm not sure about that.
23 Q. But you're sure that Celic was the one that called the meeting in
24 Lucko shortly after the 25th and 26th of 1995 [sic]?
25 A. Again, I'm not sure. In order to be sure, I'd have to remember
1 the moment when he asked me to come to the meeting. However, the usual
2 procedure was that if the commander of the unit wants to have a meeting
3 with the leading people from the unit, then he would have his assistants
4 convene the meeting. Mr. Celic was one of his assistants.
5 So I think it was Mr. Celic who actually convened the meeting.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Drljo left the meeting and refused to write a report.
7 Who is was responsible, if anyone, to discipline him -- I'll ask the --
8 strike that question.
9 Mr. Drljo refused to write a report, from what we've heard.
10 That's a potential act which would cause there to be potentially
11 discipline; is that true?
12 A. Yes. That would be the usual procedure.
13 Q. Who was the person responsible, then, to discipline Mr. Drljo, if
14 he failed to write a report when he was ordered to do so?
15 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly who would ultimately take that
16 measure. However, I think that the procedure should have been initiated
17 by the commander of the unit.
18 Q. Would Celic have to advise Mr. Turkalj that Drljo didn't want to
19 write a report and then Turkalj would decide what, if any, disciplinary
20 measures would be taken? Is that how I am to assume what would happen?
21 A. Yes. If Mr. Turkalj was not present when the incident occurred
22 at the meeting, then Mr. Celic would have to inform Mr. Turkalj about
23 that and then he would take further measures.
24 Q. Did Mr. Celic - and if I -- if I -- one final question on this.
25 If I asked it, I'm sorry.
1 Mr. Celic led that meeting in the Lucko Unit, correct, that you
2 had, that discussed August 25th?
3 A. I think the answer is yes.
4 Q. Okay. I'd like to move to a different topic, Mr. Balunovic.
5 Just briefly, you participated in training sessions in 1995 in
6 Mali Losinj for instructors, did you not?
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. And you received training and, among other things, conducting
9 mop-up operations, combat activities and the international laws of war,
10 did you not?
11 A. Yes. Those were primarily the subjects involved in that
13 Q. And, just for reference, those are D1826 and D532.
14 Mr. Balunovic, you were also trained as a special policeman, were
15 you not, when you became one in the Ministry of Interior Special Police?
16 A. Yes. I would like to note that, at the beginning of the war,
17 there wasn't much time for some kind of extended training. Before that,
18 I had completed my one-year military service.
19 As for being admitted into the police force, that was one of the
20 prerequisites. So, up to a certain degree, I was prepared to take part
21 in actions.
22 Q. Mr. Balunovic, I'd like to move on to a different subject matter.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could please pull up 65 ter 7542. The
24 English version is page 4. And, for the record, it's a January 12th,
25 2010, interview in the Zagreb County Court of Mr. Mr. Balunovic.
1 Q. Mr. Balunovic, before we get into a specific question, these
2 interviews before the county court that you had, those were all under
3 oath; correct? You were sworn to tell the truth.
4 A. I don't remember the moment of taking the oath. But the judge
5 did tell me that it was my duty to tell the truth. I think that that was
6 the procedure, and I think that that's how it went.
7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to page 4 the last paragraph in
8 the English on the bottom. It says:
9 "To a question by the defence counsel ..."
10 The second sentence of that paragraph -- if we could scroll down
11 in the Croatian version too, please. It says:
12 "I believe that my commanding function of the group leader stems
13 from the command of my superior officer Celic who entrusted me with this
15 Am I correct in reading this, that when you refer to the person
16 who was your direct superior, at least for purposes of what occurred on
17 August 25th, it was Mr. Celic.
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could move, please, to another subject.
20 We don't need the document on the screen anymore. Thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Balunovic, there's been evidence in this case, and I cite the
22 Chamber to D99, the -- or to D739, excuse me, that the Lucko Unit was
23 assigned to protect part of the railway near Ramljane for the freedom
24 train because it was one of the most sensitive places along the freedom
25 train railway line.
1 Were you aware of that at all, Mr. Balunovic?
2 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
3 Q. Were you aware that the freedom train operation on August 26th,
4 1995, in which the Lucko Unit was involved, that there has been evidence
5 in the case that this part of the railway line was among the most
6 sensitive places along the line and that's why the Lucko Unit was
7 involved, from a security standpoint?
8 A. I'm not aware of the details of planning that action.
9 However, I do know that our task was to mop up the terrain, as
10 assigned, so that it would be safe for the passage of the freedom train.
11 That is all that I know about the plan of that action and the
12 reasons why it was being carried out.
11 Page 28453 redacted
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, you may proceed.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Balunovic, I'd like to move to the topic of Ramljane on
11 August 26th.
12 You stated that in Ramljane, after the action, when the unit was
13 confronted by General Markac, Mr. Janic was present, Mr. Celic was
14 present, Mr. Drljo was present, and I'm referencing your 2004 statement,
15 at page 118 of 143.
16 Was Mr. Krajina present as well?
17 A. No, I don't remember Mr. Krajina at all. That is to say, that
18 I'm not sure whether he was there or not, but I don't remember him having
19 been there.
20 Q. You stated yesterday in your testimony and in your 2004 statement
21 that you didn't know of Sacic, Mr. Sacic was in Ramljane; correct?
22 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand the question.
23 Q. Sure. Yesterday in your statement -- or in your testimony, and
24 today, or, excuse me, I'll rephrase the question.
25 Yesterday in your testimony and in your 2004 statement that you
1 gave to the OTP, you said that you didn't know if Sacic was in Ramljane.
2 Does that square with your recollection today?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. It's fair to state, is it not, that Mr. Sacic was the kind of
5 person that one could not miss. I mean, you could hear him before you
6 could see him; correct?
7 A. Yes, I agree with you.
8 Q. And just to confirm, as you sit here today, you cannot tell us
9 that Mr. Sacic was in Ramljane on August 26th, 1995, can you?
10 A. Yes, I cannot say with certainty that he was there.
11 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'd like to, please, call up P190, which is a
12 map that we've used throughout these proceedings. And the part of the
13 map that I would like enlarged is the area near Ramljane, which is, for
14 the Registrar's reference, between Knin and Drnis, in the lower part of
15 the map.
16 Scroll down. Keep going. All the way to the end. Okay. And
17 now if you move to the right a bit, actually, yes, a little more. And
18 then if you can put the cursor up, up, up, to the left, right there,
19 that's good. If you can enlarge that area, please. A little -- I'm
20 sorry, before you enlarge, move the cursor up a little bit more. I'll
21 tell you when to stop. Up, up the screen, to the right; further to the
22 right. Right there. If you can enlarge, please.
23 No -- there you go, that's good.
24 Now, if we can see toward the upper third in the middle --
25 Q. Mr. Balunovic, you'll see from left to right, you'll see in small
1 type, Ramljane.
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If could you enlarge it just a little bit more.
3 We have Drnis at the bottom, so you can get a point of reference. There
4 we go.
5 If we could go up a little higher. A little bit more. A little
6 bit more. Okay. That's perfect.
7 Q. Okay. Mr. Balunovic, that's, on the right, we see a railroad
8 track to the right of -- and a road to the right of where -- where it
9 reads Ramljane, right next to the E of Ramljane. Right near Kaldrma.
10 Do you see that? If you go to the top of the map and you look
11 at, which is next to the purple line. Have you found it?
12 A. Could you please help me? Which part of the map should I be
13 looking at. You said up --
14 Q. Do you see where Uzdolje is on the map?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Go further up the map and you will see, Cosici, Kaldrma on the
17 way up?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then to the left of that, Ramljane. Do you see that? It's a
20 rather long word spaced out.
21 A. Yes, now I can see it.
22 Q. Now in this part of the search operation, according to your
23 report, which is P770, you state that your search operation went along
24 Dobrici-Vujakovici-Perica tor axis. Now, you can see there, Dobrici
25 Vujakovici from right to left and Perica tor and along that axis is
1 somewhat in-depth away from the railroad, meaning from the right to left;
2 do you see that?
3 A. I can see Dobrici, and I can also see Vujakovici.
4 Q. And if you go further along to the left of Vujakovici, along that
5 road, you will see eventually Perica tor. Do you see that? First is
6 Prgastine, Prgastine tor, and then Perica tor.
7 A. Yes, I can see that.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: With the assistance of the usher, can I just
9 have the witness draw that line on the screen and then we will mark it
10 and have it as a separate document. We're blue, if I'm not mistaken,
11 Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Balunovic, if can just draw a line along that road from
13 Dobrici to Perica tor, which is the terrain along which your report
14 states your unit went on the 26th of August.
15 And we're red.
16 A. Marks.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Balunovic. We'll just note that, for the record,
18 the Defence is supposed to use blue, but, in this instance, the marking
19 is red and rather than dealing with the zooming in and everything, and,
20 Your Honour, if that is all right, we'll leave it red?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Why not wipe it out in red and do it in blue.
22 MR. KUZMANOVIC: We can do that, that's fine.
23 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever confusion at a later
25 Could the witness be given a blue pen and so then to take out the
1 red one or ...
2 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we lift the card up, it will automatically
3 erase. So why don't we move the card up a little bit more to put that,
4 sort of, in the middle of the map, if that's all right, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we can lift the map up a little bit more
7 before the witness marks it again. Little bit more. That's good. Thank
9 Q. And, Mr. Balunovic, with the blue marker, if could you please
10 again mark that line from Dobrici to Perica tor?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. If you go on the line on the left, if you can make it all the
13 way, please, to Perica tor.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. I believe were the line is ended, Mr. Balunovic, is
16 Prgastine tor, and if you move a little bit more to the left, you'll see
17 Perica tor. So if can you draw the line all the way there.
18 A. Apologise, what do you want me to write? I see here it says
19 Prgastine tor and below that it says Perica tor. Oh, right, yes.
20 Q. Now, if you could just, please, to the right of the blue line
21 with an X, just mark where the railroad line is.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. Next to that railroad line is a -- a road, correct,
24 running from north to south? Parallel with -- to some extent, with the
25 railroad line?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Was it on that road from Ramljane on the way to Knin, or
3 somewhere in that vicinity near Ramljane, that you had the encounter with
4 General Markac?
5 A. I don't know what road that was. I'm not familiar with the
6 region. That is not where I was born. I was in that place only during
7 that operation, never before, never after. It's very difficult for me to
8 find my bearings on the map. I don't know what roads lead where.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I'd like to have this document
10 marked and moved into evidence, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Mr. Registrar, that would be ...
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
13 Exhibit D2040.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit D2040 is admitted into evidence.
15 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
16 Q. Now, Mr. Balunovic, do you recall at all that this area in which
17 you were operating on that day, to some extent, was very hilly and
18 heavily wooded between the tracks where you marked as an X and the
19 finishing point in Perica tor?
20 A. I don't remember the configuration of the terrain there. But
21 judging by the map, I would say that south of the axis there is an rather
22 steep slope leading to an elevation.
23 Q. Now, would you agree with me - and tell me if you can or cannot -
24 that the only thing what one would be able to see from the road or the
25 tracks in the area of Ramljane, if anything, would be smoke, if smoke
2 A. I agree with you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, there seems to be a suggestion in
4 your question that it has got something to do with the previous question,
5 which is rather unclear to me. Let's just see ...
6 Now, first of all, if I re-read your question, whether
7 Mr. Balunovic agrees with you, and he's invited to tell you, "... if you
8 can or cannot - that the only thing what one would be able to see from
9 the road or the tracks ... if anything, would be smoke, if smoke
11 Now he was first invited to agree with you or not that it was
12 possible or it was not possible to see what you then described, and he
13 agreed. I would say I would agree with that, as well, that it is
14 possible or not possible.
15 I'm just analysing your question and then to see what the answer
16 is. And then -- but he can see smoke or not, what do you mean, that
17 there was an officially obstruction or --
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...
19 JUDGE ORIE: It is totally unclear to me.
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
21 Q. Mr. Balunovic, from the train tracks and from the road, in the
22 position of Ramljane, the only thing that one would be able to see from
23 the roads or the tracks on the west side of that road, if there was fire,
24 would be smoke. You wouldn't be able to see fires; you wouldn't be able
25 to see anything burning. The only thing you would be able to see would
1 be smoke; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. So I can agree with you on that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, again, could we explore the base for
4 this answer.
5 Mr. Balunovic, why do you think that, to the west of the road or
6 the track, if there was smoke, you only could see smoke and no fire?
7 Could you tell us why that is.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as far as I can
9 remember, the terrain was forested. There were a lot of trees, in other
10 words. And in that sense, I believe if -- if a house had been burning,
11 one could not have seen the house from the trees but one could easily see
12 the smoke coming from the -- the site, because the smoke would rise above
13 the tree tops.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kuzmanovic, there was -- I'm trying to
15 further explore this, because we have not established yet anything about
16 trees. You asked him questions about hilly terrain.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I think I asked him, Your Honour, if the road
18 and train tracks were heavily wooded and hilly in the area of the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I missed the "wooded." And if that is the
21 case, I apologise for that. And, therefore, the answer by Mr. Balunovic
22 is on the basis of the woods, rather than on the basis of the hills. Is
23 that --
24 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I asked him: Do you recall if this area in
25 which you were operating on that day, to some extent, was very hilly and
1 wooded between the tracks.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understood that as woods on the hills.
3 Perhaps that's a misunderstanding, but because in the next answer,
4 because the hills didn't receive a positive confirmation.
5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I don't [Overlapping speakers] ... at all.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And I think, as a matter of fact, that the woods
7 were not, at that moment, further dealt with in the answer.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Well, I asked both; was it very hilly and
9 heavily wooded.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And could you take me to the line exactly
11 where that was. Well, I'll find it. Just a second.
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Why don't we pull up 65 ter 3D01001, please.
13 Doc ID 3D070067. There we go. I don't know if we necessarily have to
14 mark this, Your Honour, but this is a Google map of Ramljane, which we've
15 discussed with Mr. Hedaraly. He doesn't have an objection to it, to give
16 a top-down view of Ramljane.
17 Q. Mr. Balunovic, do you see on the right side there, the road and
18 the railroad track?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Mark that -- the road being marked with a 33.
21 A. Yes, can I see that.
22 Q. And would you agree with me, just to the left of the road, there
23 is what appears to be a fairly big hill with a number of wooded areas
24 that runs from north to south?
25 A. Yes. I can see it very clearly now.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Can I have a number for that document,
2 Your Honour, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections.
4 MR. HEDARALY: No objection. I don't know if it was done, but if
5 we can just clarify for the record that that road is the Knin to Drnis
6 road, the 33. I don't know if that was done or not. But we don't have
7 no objection to the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think that was clear on the basis of the
9 previous -- of the previous exhibit.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Just to make a little bit more clarity.
11 Q. Mr. Balunovic, the road that goes toward the top of the map goes
12 toward Knin, and the road that goes toward the bottom of the map goes
13 toward Drnis; is that correct?
14 A. As I have already told you, I don't know. I'm not sure that that
15 that's the case. I'm not very familiar with the area and that's why I am
16 not sure.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC: To confirm it, we can pull P190 up, Your Honour,
18 but I think under the circumstances, I don't think it is necessary.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on P190, also the marked version, D2040, it --
20 there is hardly any doubt about whether this is the Knin-Drnis road.
21 Mr. Registrar, the exhibit number would be ...
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number would be D2041. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
24 Mr. Kuzmanovic, one of my questions here is -- is what now
25 exactly you can see or cannot see and where the woods are and what is
1 meadow and what is not meadow. That's -- I have -- for example, if I
2 look at -- to the right of that road, easterly direction, I see some
3 darker green areas which, from my recollection, from what I see from a
4 plane, resembles wood. But, if, for example, I would look from Ramljane
5 or the road or the rail track close to that, to the west, I do not see
6 similar things. So, therefore, I'm just asking myself, whether what kind
7 of conclusions we are drawing on the basis of what exactly.
8 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I think it is pretty, Your Honour, relatively
9 easy to see if you combine this photograph with what is the map in P90
10 [sic]. You can see the elevations in P--
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is exactly what I -- let me just --
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And on this photograph from north to south,
13 running immediately to the left of the road is -- you can tell by the
14 switchback roads that is a hill that runs, basically, from north to
15 south, west of the road.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Just -- I will have a closer look at the elevation
17 lines that is P190. Because as witness said earlier, he said, I do not
18 remember. What I see is that south of our track there is a -- a rather
19 steep hill. When he said that, I looked at that map as well and I saw
20 that the elevation lines, apart from that part where you go up 200, 300
21 metres, approximately, and I think Ramljane was at 563, but let me just
22 check that, or 463. I'm just wondering what we really could and could
23 not conclude from from this map, where the witness says that he has
24 limited recollection.
25 I'm just trying to get the relevant part of P190 on my screen.
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think I can fix this by my next
2 set of questions, and, if I can't, you'll let me know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if I look at that road, and if I look to the
4 west of that road, that I see one or perhaps two elevation lines.
5 Whereas, between Dobrici and -- I see an elevation of 359 metres close to
6 that, I hardly see any elevation lines in westerly direction. And I take
7 it that one elevation line is - let me see - I don't know exactly how
8 many metres that is.
9 Would that be 10 metres or would it be ...
10 I see that Mount Promina
11 of elevation lines; whereas, looking between Dobrici, in the direction of
12 Perica tor, I hardly see any elevation lines. Again, the margin, south,
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I can understand that. The issue
15 here is what can be seen from the road and the railroad track on this
16 axis, Dobrici, Mijakovici, and Perica tor.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, I'm asking myself, because on the basis
18 of a Google map which is, of course, a projection, you look from the top,
19 so it's extremely difficult to establish what exactly the elevation
20 difference is. You have some indications. For example, if you look at
21 the road to -- from the road to Ramljane, then you see it doesn't go
22 straight. It goes in a kind of a hairpin. So that may be an indication,
23 not necessarily; whereas further south, we see that from that road, from
24 the main road between Drnis and Knin, we see that a road stretches in a
25 rather -- without any - how do you call it?
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Switchbacks.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, it's -- to judge this on the
3 basis of this map, which, apparently you're seeking to with the witness
4 leaves, at least, some questions open. If you want us to adopt the
5 conclusions, then get rid of those questions.
6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I understand that, Your Honour. Perhaps we
7 could take a site visit and go and take a look at it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, an application can be made. Well, not tomorrow
9 because it might be difficult to get there.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think can I explain this further
11 using other documents as well as ones we've marked already.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Fine. I think it's good that you aware of me having
13 some difficulties in following exactly what can be deduced from this map
14 and from this Google Earth satellite picture.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could go to D4020
17 [sic] which was the map that was drawn on by the witness.
18 MR. HEDARALY: 2040.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: 2040, I'm sorry. Thank you.
20 Q. Now, there are a lot of green areas indicated on this particular
21 map, Mr. Balunovic. The light green areas, does that represent to you
22 areas that are forested or wooded, to your knowledge?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, this axis which you described in your report, P770, Dobrici,
25 Vujakovici, and Perica tor, you reported on, on -- in your written report
1 of August 26th of 1995, and we'll get to that report and get it on the
2 screen in a second. But you had written that your group came under fire
3 from buildings in Vujakovici which is noted in the map along the blue
4 line there from Dobrici onto Perica tor; is that correct?
5 A. Again, I would like to note that I have a very poor recollection
6 of that action.
7 Actually, there were many actions during the war and on similar
8 terrain at that. As for this action, it was not discussed in such great
9 detail during these questionings, so I really have forgotten quite a few
10 details. I mean, right now, I cannot say for sure whether it was there
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could please put up P770 on the screen.
13 And, Your Honours, we're going to get the Google map elevation map out.
14 Hopefully that will assist the Chamber. We're going to do that right now
15 while I'm doing this questioning.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
18 Q. Mr. Balunovic, this is a report written in your handwriting dated
19 August 26th, 1995
20 A. Yes. It's my handwriting and my signature.
21 Q. Now, on this document in part of the report, you said:
22 "My group came under fire ... we returned fire with infantry
23 weapons and anti-tank weapons, like a 64-millimetre RBR hand-held
25 Before I ask, that is a Zolja, is it not?
1 A. Yes, Zoljas.
2 Q. And you continue:
3 "... which resulted in several buildings and haystacks catching
5 And that, you note, happened in Vujakovici. Now -- which is
6 quite a distance from both the road and the rail line, would you not
7 agree? According to the maps that we've seen.
8 A. Yes, that's the way it is according to the map.
9 Q. Based on the fact that you were there, I know you don't recall
10 very much about what happened on August 26th. But would you agree with
11 me that if there was any kind of fire, as you reported in Vujakovici, the
12 only thing that could be seen from the road or the rail line, based on
13 the distance and the topography and the terrain, would be smoke?
14 A. Yes, I would agree with you.
15 Q. Now, I'd like to discuss - hopefully I'll finish by the break -
16 the issue of General Markac and what he allegedly said to Mr. Drljo on
17 the 26th.
18 Now you said Mr. -- General Markac confronted the unit on the
19 road. You're just not sure what road it was, but it was somewhere in the
20 vicinity of Ramljane, was it not?
21 A. Yes, I think that's the way it was.
22 Q. Did you know whether Mr. Janic contacted General Markac and
23 General Markac asked Mr. Janic what was up with the smoke?
24 A. No. I don't know anything about that.
25 Q. Do you know if Mr. Celic at all was contact -- in contact with
1 General Markac regarding the smoke?
2 A. No. I don't know about that either.
3 Q. Now, in your 65 ter OTP statement, at page 119 of 143, you noted
4 that Mr. -- General Markac was upset because he had been informed that
5 smoke could be seen from the train; is that correct?
6 A. If that is what is written in the statement, then that is most
7 probably what I had said.
8 Q. And he didn't just come to confront the unit to say -- the
9 Lucko Unit just to say hello, he was angry; correct?
10 A. Yes. I think he was quite angry.
11 Q. And on page 41 and 42 of your statement, you state:
12 "I don't know if he spoke specially to the commanders, but
13 Mr. Markac stopped our convoy. We exited our vehicles, and he spoke to
14 all of us."
15 And on page 42, you said:
16 "I remember him being very angry. He was very strict, very
18 Now, you were aware, were you not, that there was a specific
19 order that there not be any smoke or fire during this freedom train
21 A. Well, I don't remember that order exactly. But, of course, we
22 had been warned that we should not do anything that would be against the
23 law. So that had to do with the treatment of civilians and property. Of
24 course, nothing should have been done that was against the law.
25 Q. If we could go back to your report, P770. The last sentence of
1 your report says:
2 "I would like to point out in this report that we complied with
3 the order not to burn Serbian houses and nothing was deliberately set on
5 Now, your P770 report here specifically says that there was an
6 order not to burn Serbian houses. That's correct, isn't it?
7 A. Again, I would like to say that if that is what I said in my
8 statement, and my memory was fresh then, then I accept that that is the
9 way it was.
10 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could go to 65 ter 7541, please.
11 Q. Before we get it that document, did you verbally advise Mr. Celic
12 that there was an incident of fire in Vujakovici before General Markac
13 arrived? Meaning fire from weapons.
14 A. I don't remember whether I informed him.
15 Q. The document up on your screen, again, is a 16th of December,
16 2009, record of a witness interview in which you were cautioned that --
17 to speak the truth.
18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: And page 3 of that document, please.
19 In the Croatian version -- or in the English version, the section
20 starts, "The next day," which is about the middle of the way down. And I
21 think it's the previous page in the Croatian version.
22 I'm sorry, it's the next page in the Croatian version. English
23 version is fine. Middle of the page:
24 "The next day, we conducted a search."
25 That's what I'd like highlighted, please. If we can match that
1 up, please, with the Croatian version which is also in the middle of the
2 page. About a third of way down, and the sentence is [B/C/S spoken].
3 Q. Again, we're talking about August 26th:
4 "The next day, we conducted a search of the terrain in another
5 part of the wider area of Knin. Some houses were set on fire in the
6 field that day. I did not see who set those houses on fire, and I do not
7 know the name of that place. I do not remember exactly, but it seems to
8 me, it was on that second day at the so-called finish line. I'm not sure
9 whether we drove before that or we were about to climb into vehicles when
10 General Markac arrived and asked who set the houses on fire. I do not
11 remember whether he mentioned a name of a village, but it seems to me
12 that he referred to that village we passed through on the second day of
13 the operation. As far as I remember, Franjo Drljo then angrily answered
14 General Markac that he had set those houses on fire. Then, following an
15 order by General Markac, we returned to the base in Lucko."
16 Now, this statement differs somewhat from what you said in your
17 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. He was addressing the entire
18 unit, was he not?
19 A. Well, right now, I cannot remember all those details. But,
20 again, I would like to say that I made that statement when my memory was
21 fresh, when my health was better. I would accept what I had said then
22 as -- as the truth, yes.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: If we could get P770 back up, please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, did I miss anything, that the fresh
25 memory in -- weren't you reading from the 2009 statement?
1 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, I was, and I'm going --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Couldn't we then see what the difference in
3 freshness is between 2009 compared to 2010.
4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I think I cited those already, Your Honour.
5 Page 41 of 143 where I said:
6 "I don't know if he spoke especially to the commanders, but
7 Mr. Markac stopped our convoy, we exited our vehicles, and he spoke to
8 all of us."
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the reference to the statement was not
10 the reference of the statement you had just read? Because you were --
11 you had just read the 2009 statement, isn't it?
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I did. And I'm going to use P770 to ask a
13 question in juxtaposition of the two.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was a bit confused by -- if you quote a
15 considerable portion of a statement. Well, he said, I would like to say
16 that I made that statement, where you just had read the 2009 statement,
17 then it came as a bit of a -- illogical, but if you are going to clarify
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Yes, I am, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please.
21 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
22 Q. P770, Mr. Balunovic, was written a day or two, or the same day of
23 the action, was it not? August 26th, 1995, it is dated.
24 A. I don't remember the day or the moment when I wrote that report.
25 Q. It was certainly a day or two after the event that you described
1 in the report, was it not? And it was certainly before December 16th of
2 2009 and November of 2004.
3 A. Yes, certainly.
4 Q. Now, in this report, when General Markac confronted the unit and
5 asked about the smoke, you had already had the information that you were
6 going to put together for this particular report, that your group had
7 come under fire from buildings and that these buildings, several
8 buildings and haystacks, had caught fire. While Mr. -- while
9 General Markac was berating the unit, about the smoke, why didn't you
10 just tell him, Sir, we came under fire. We returned fire. Several
11 buildings and haystacks caught fire.
12 You didn't tell him that at all, did you?
13 A. That's right. But you think I didn't do that because Mr. Drljo
14 actually interrupted the discussion. I already said that Mr. Markac was
15 quite upset. And I think that Mr. Drljo's outburst and his statement
16 interrupted any further discussion in the field. After that, Mr. Markac
17 was very offended, and he left.
18 Q. Why didn't you then tell General Markac, Look, it was the result
19 of fire from our unit. Drljo had nothing to do with it.
20 Were you covering for Drljo?
21 A. No, no. I wasn't covering for anyone. I always behaved in a
22 soldierly manner. I always waited to be asked. Before I answered or
23 spoke. I didn't want to interrupt anyone.
24 Q. Why didn't you, right after the action, let Celic know that there
25 was some incident, so Celic could let General Markac know, verbally.
1 A. Well, I don't remember whether I did that or not. I cannot say
2 with certainty now.
3 Q. If we could go to your 2004 OTP statement, on page 118 and 119.
4 There you describe this same August 26th incident. And you
6 "I remember us walking down this road which was allegedly mined,
7 and I remember going first with several of my men and Mr. Drljo and
8 Mr. Krajina behind me. I can't remember Mr. Zinic. I do not recall
9 exactly, I do not know exactly what happened, but allegedly some houses
10 were set on fire. There was smoke coming from these houses."
11 Now, you were with Drljo, according to your OTP statement of
12 2004. And in your report of August 26th, 1995, you describe several
13 buildings and haystacks catching fire, as a result of return fire with
14 infantry weapons.
15 How can you reconcile those two, please?
16 A. Well, I think that I said yesterday that I think that I wrote
17 that report relying on assumptions for the most part.
18 So there was shooting. At that moment I did not see any house
19 catching fire, but I think that some houses did catch fire, so in the
20 report, on the basis of an assumption, I wrote that that is how the fire
21 happened, due to firing.
22 Q. Mr. Balunovic, your report says:
23 "I commanded a group of 15 men," among other things.
24 And it says:
25 "My group came under fire while we were moving along the road
1 towards that place. We returned fire."
2 You are included in the group that you are discussing, correct?
3 In P770.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. One final thing, Mr. Balunovic. When the discussion occurred
6 where you heard about Mr. Sosa and Mr. Radocaj and the allegations about
7 people being killed or -- in Grubori and -- and Mr. Drljo, that was in
9 A. I'm not sure about the year. But it was -- well, I think it was
10 at the time when investigators from The Hague Tribunal started their
11 investigation. I don't know exactly what year that was.
12 Q. You were still a member of the special police at the time?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. It is true, is it not, that had you heard something like you
15 discussed and heard about Mr. Sosa and Mr. Radocaj, you had an obligation
16 as a special policeman to report that to your commanding officer, did you
18 A. Well, I don't know. I don't think I would agree with you.
19 Actually, it had to do with the following: People were being
20 threatened, people who were my friends. I was being threatened. In
21 addition to that, there is no statute of limitation on war crimes. So I
22 thought it wasn't indispensable to take action with regard to that
24 My friend Igor Radocaj said to me that he would testify.
25 However, at that time, there was talk about Mr. Igor Beneta. There was a
1 suspicion that he had committed some killings. It was being said that he
2 had repented and that he was a collaborating witness. Igor and I came to
3 the conclusion that nothing was needed yet, that things would be
4 resolved, and that Sosa and he and I should not expose our families to
5 the danger ever a possible revenge. That is why we decided to wait,
6 because we believed that the matter would be resolved even without our
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuzmanovic, I'm looking at the clock.
9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: One last question and then I'll deal with the
10 map after the break, Your Honour, if that's all right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The --
12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: The elevation map, unless the Court
13 [Overlapping speakers] ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps I could cut that short. But please put
15 your last question to the witness.
16 MR. KUZMANOVIC:
17 Q. Mr. Balunovic, if the people on the ground at the time were not
18 telling the truth about what happened, what were the people at the top
19 supposed to believe about what happened, up the chain of command?
20 A. I don't understand the question. If I understood it correctly, I
21 will try to give an answer.
22 I think that the people at the top did not have any other
23 information except for the information that could have been provided to
24 them by people on the ground and possibly some other information, if
25 there were some investigations under way that people had not been aware
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Balunovic. I don't have any further questions and
5 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
6 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
18 Mr. Kuzmanovic, I find it important always to be as transparent
19 as possible. That means that if we consult any source which is not in
20 evidence that it should be clear to the parties that we have looked at
22 Now, your suggestion that you could look at the elevation maps in
23 Google maps, triggered me to quickly look at it. There, you find the
24 information which gives a clue to how it is.
25 If the parties could agree on the following. That is, that
1 between the road number 33, between Knin and Drnis, which runs north to
2 south, between that road and the village of Ramljane
3 approximately close to half a kilometre distance from that road, that
4 there is an kind of a ridge at an elevation at approximately 300 metres,
5 running north to south, parallel to the road and the railway track. And
6 that to the east of that ridge - that is, the elevation of the road and
7 the railway track - that it's three elevation lines further down, which
8 puts it at approximately 240 metres. Whereas, to the west ridge,
9 descending, it's two elevation lines further down, which brings you to
10 approximately 260 metres. And that, on a distance of 4 or 500 metres,
11 allows to draw conclusions as far as visibility is concerned, if you know
12 the distance of what you see and the height of the structures you're
13 talking about.
14 If the parties would agree on that, then we can save ourselves
15 then to go through it in all kind of details. It is exactly this Google
16 elevation maps, if you consider this to be sufficiently reliable source
17 which gives the information which does allow; whereas, the other map was
18 not accurate.
19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Understood, Your Honour. I give you a A+ in
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As long as you do not expect anything in
22 return, I'm happy with it, Mr. Kuzmanovic.
23 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you for the extra time as well,
24 Your Honour, I was glad we could finish.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hedaraly.
1 MR. HEDARALY: I don't think that we will have an issue. If we
2 can just have at break to look at the map myself, but I doubt --
3 [Overlapping speakers] ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: What I wanted to ask you, as a matter of fact, is
5 whether you would need to re-examine the witness.
6 MR. HEDARALY: No, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking this, just assuming that the position of
8 the Cermak Defence and the Gotovina Defence is still the same?
9 MR. KAY: Yes, Your Honour.
10 MR. KEHOE: It is, Mr. President.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber has only one question for the
13 witness, perhaps we put it to the witness and then we most likely could
14 excuse him.
15 Further Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Balunovic, I carefully listened to your
17 testimony. I looked at the entire story. Now, apparently nothing
18 worthwhile reporting happened on the 25th. Then suddenly all kind of
19 people came from Zagreb
20 least one crew on the 27th. Everyone goes there, Mr. Sacic, Mr. Cermak,
21 you go there, apparently you said you had to return from Zagreb.
22 Mr. Celic was there. You saw dead bodies, everything you did not expect
23 to be there.
24 Your answer, did you ask what had happened? You said, Well, no.
25 I mean, isn't it true that the first thing everyone wanted to know who
1 came to that place apparently alerted by information about dead bodies
2 being found there, that the first question that would come to everyone's
3 mind is: What has happened here?
4 Nevertheless, the gist of your testimony is that that seemed not
5 to have been anything that was discussed, spoken about. You said you
6 were shocked. And then that's the end of the whole story.
7 That is what you told us, isn't it
8 A. Well, Your Honour, I would like to point out once again that
9 probably among these people, I was the policeman or soldier who was at
10 the lowest level in terms of hierarchy. Of course, I wondered what had
11 happened and when.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Balunovic, let me stop you there. You were in
13 the presence of others, whatever rank you are, a human being, having been
14 so close to the events at the edge of Grubori village, whatever his rank
15 is, wouldn't you - and that was my question - would it not be the normal
16 thing to expect that everyone, high-ranking or low-ranking, would want to
17 know what happened and would discuss what had happened, or ask what has
18 happened, or listen to what others said had happened. That's what I
19 would, under normal circumstances, expect that would take place on that
20 27th. And you tell us, I don't know anything, I didn't hear anything
21 about how these events had developed. I didn't ask anything. I didn't
22 hear anyone -- others ask about it. It's -- that's it.
23 But that appears to be your testimony, isn't it? Apart from the
24 reasons you may have given.
25 A. Please allow me to explain.
1 I always --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't ask you to explain. I asked you whether
3 that is what your testimony is, apart from how it is explained. No one
4 talked about it. No one asked what happened. No one -- you didn't ask.
5 You didn't receive any further information. No one else asked. No one
6 said anything. It was just -- well, of course, you said a few things, an
7 observation that someone said, it's not done by a knife, but it's done by
8 a bullet.
9 But how this could have happened and how it happened, apart from
10 such technical details, was not discussed. You didn't hear any
11 discussion about it. You didn't ask anything. You apparently did not
12 discuss it with Mr. Celic, to whom you had reported two days prior to
14 That is what your testimony is, is it?
15 A. Well, I'm sorry, but I would not fully agree with you.
16 I said as much as I could, on the basis of my recollection of
17 what had happened. Again, I would like to note that I was a soldier who
18 was there to obey orders, not to put questions to his superiors about
19 anything. That is how I always perceived my role.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say, "I said as much as I could," that
21 is -- you are referring to your testimony today; or are you referring to
22 what you may have said when you visited Grubori on the 27th of August?
23 A. I'm talking about my testimony here.
24 I would like to note that, finally, when I testified in Croatia
25 I gave the information that I had about that, as to who it might have
1 been that did that and how.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Balunovic, this concludes your testimony. May I
3 take it that the questions by the Bench have not triggered --
4 MR. HEDARALY: I would have one question, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I already went quite a bit beyond the
6 time. If it is just one question Mr. Hedaraly, and I'm looking at
7 everyone assisting us, then ...
8 MR. HEDARALY: It is not necessary, Your Honour. I will withdraw
9 the question. It is not crucial, but it was related to the point that
10 Your Honour was exploring.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you withdraw the question, then this concludes
12 your testimony, Mr. Balunovic.
13 I would like to thank you very much for coming a long way, and I
14 hope that you will be able to return as soon as possible, which is
15 uncertain in these times. I, at least, want to thank you for having
16 answered the questions that you were put to you by the parties and by the
17 Bench, and I wish you, slow or quick, a safe return home.
18 You may follow the usher.
19 I would like to continue --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- after the break, quarter past 12.00 [sic]. I
23 hope that I can deal with quite some procedural matters. Most likely, we
24 will have no time to go through the MFI list. I would suggest to the
25 parties that if the next witness does not arrive in time that we would
1 have a housekeeping session tomorrow morning at 9.00 and go through the
2 MFI list, which is not very long, but then have a clean desk again.
3 We will also, perhaps, be in a position then to discuss further
4 scheduling of this week because we might know more about the arrival of
5 the next witness.
6 No objection? We resume at quarter past 1.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.57 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I first would like to deliver a decision by the
11 The Chamber would now like to issue its decision concerning the
12 Markac Defence motion for an order to prevent the Prosecution from
13 relying upon Defence materials protected by Rule 70(A) of the Tribunal's
14 Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
15 On the 24th of February, 2010, the Markac Defence filed a motion
16 for an order to prevent the Prosecution from relying on materials which
17 it claims are protected by Rule 70(A). The document in question is a
18 report titled: "Analysis of military police in Operation Storm." The
19 report was prepared by the Croatian Ministry of Defence, in response to a
20 Request for Assistance from the Markac Defence. In its motion, the
21 Markac Defence argued that the document is protected by Rule 70(A),
22 because it was prepared by the Ministry of Defence at the request of the
23 Markac Defence, for the purposes of the proceedings before the Chamber.
24 On the 4th of March, the Prosecution responded, requesting that
25 the motion be denied. The Prosecution submitted that the document is not
1 protected by Rule 70(A), because it was produced by the military police
2 administration of the Ministry of Defence, and then distributed
3 internally and archived by the Ministry of Defence. At the Prosecution's
4 request, the Ministry of Defence provided the Prosecution with a copy of
5 the document. Finally, the Prosecution argued that Croatian government
6 organs and officials could not be considered a party's representative or
7 assistants, as a result of a Request for Assistance or the receiving of
8 such assistance.
9 Under Rule 70(A), reports, memoranda, or other internal documents
10 prepared by a party, its assistants, or representatives in connection
11 with the investigation or preparation of the case, are not subject to
12 disclosure or notification under Rules 66 and 67.
13 The report in question was not prepared by the Markac Defence.
14 Instead, the report was prepared by the military police administration of
15 the Croatian Ministry of Defence. In its request to Croatia, the Markac
16 Defence did not specify that it sought a report to be compiled for
17 exclusive use by the Markac Defence. Furthermore, the parts of the
18 report that have been filed before the Chamber do not indicate that
20 within and archived at the Ministry of Defence. It appears from the
21 report that, when compiling the report, the Ministry of Defence
22 considered itself to be acting in accordance with its obligation to
23 provide assistance. Furthermore, Croatia also provided the Prosecution
24 with a report at the Prosecution's request. Consequently, there are no
25 indications that the Markac Defence, and Croatia agreed, that the report
1 could only be used internally by the Markac Defence. In any event, it is
2 not clear that such agreement between the Defence and a state could lead
3 to a state becoming a member, assistant, or representative of the Defence
4 in the sense of Rule 70(A), or whether such agreement would be consistent
5 with a state's obligation towards the Tribunal under the Statute. Be
6 that as it may, in the present case, the Chamber concludes that the mere
7 fact that the report was prepared pursuant to a Request for Assistance
8 from the Markac Defence does not turn the report into an internal Markac
9 Defence document in the sense of Rule 70(A).
10 Consequently, the Chamber finds that the report does not fall
11 within the scope of Rule 70(A), and, accordingly, the Chamber denies the
12 Markac Defence motion.
13 And this concludes the Chamber's ruling on this matter.
14 I would now like to give a statement in relation to the Brioni
15 transcript P461.
16 The Chamber would like to address the transcription and
17 translation of the Brioni transcript, which is in evidence as P461.
18 On the 1st of April, 2009, the Gotovina Defence filed a revised
19 version of the Brioni transcript, pointing out shortcomings in the
20 transcription and translation of P461.
21 On the 15th of April, 2009, the Prosecution responded, agreeing
22 to only four minor corrections of P461 and objecting to all the other
23 modifications proposed by the Gotovina Defence.
24 On 20 January 2010
25 to send to CLSS certain parts of P461 for verification and to get back to
1 the Chamber as soon as CLSS had sent the results.
2 On the 12th of February, 2010, the Gotovina Defence filed a
3 memorandum compiled by CLSS and containing eight transcription and
4 translation clarifications.
5 In order to have in evidence a faithful transcription and
6 translation of the meeting held in Brioni on the 31st of July, 1995
7 should reflect the corrections set out by CLSS and filed by the Gotovina
8 Defence on the 12th of February, 2010, as well as the four minor
9 corrections conceded in the Prosecution's request [sic] to
10 Ante Gotovina's submissions regarding P461, Brioni transcript, which was
11 filed on the 15th of April, 2009.
12 At the same time, the Chamber is mindful that P461 has been
13 discussed with several witnesses in this trial, and therefore considers
14 important that the original version of P461 remains traceable in the
15 evidence, for the purpose of fully understanding and properly assessing
16 the relevant evidence of those witnesses. To this end, the Chamber
17 invites the Gotovina Defence, which had originally moved for a revision
18 of this exhibit, to do the following:
19 The Gotovina Defence should upload into e-court a new version of
20 P461, both in B/C/S and in English, with the CLSS memorandum attached.
21 First, that new version should include an annotation, in both the
22 English and the B/C/S transcripts, wherever a part of the meeting was not
23 transcribed; and each annotation should clearly and correctly reference
24 the relevant part of the CLSS memorandum.
25 Second, the new transcripts should reflect the corrections
1 conceded by the Prosecution in its response. Three of these corrections
2 concern a wrongly identified speaker, while one concerns the omission of
3 a press release read out by President Tudjman. The Gotovina Defence
4 should make annotations in the transcripts precisely reflecting these
6 As far as the first two steps are concerned, the Chamber invites
7 the Gotovina Defence to look at Exhibit P2526 as an example of how to
8 proceed. The Chamber emphasises that it must be clear, to the extent
9 possible, exactly where missing text should be inserted.
10 Third, the new English transcript should reflect the corrections
11 in translation made by CLSS. These corrections should be typed in bold,
12 reflecting exactly what is contained in the CLSS memorandum. The Chamber
13 stresses that, when annotating P461, all text should appear on the same
14 pages; thus, avoiding any confusion with regard to page numbers.
15 Fourth, the new document, comprised of the new transcripts and
16 the CLSS memorandum, should be uploaded with the following title:
17 Presidential transcripts of meeting held in Brioni on 31st of July, 1995,
18 including modifications as agreed by the parties and references to the
19 attached CLSS memorandum in relation to disputed portions of the original
20 transcription and translation.
21 Once the documents have been up loaded, the Gotovina Defence
22 shall notify the Chamber as well as the other parties, who will have one
23 week to raise any objections they may have. After that, if no objections
24 are raised, the Registry is hereby instructed to substitute the present
25 version of P461 with the newly uploaded version and to notify the
1 Chamber, as well as the parties, when it has done so.
2 And this concludes the statement on P461.
3 The third item on the agenda is the 1991 census.
4 The -- when the parties have made -- had invited the parties to
5 make submissions on the admission of the 1991 population census in its
6 entirety, the Gotovina Defence responded that it would be beneficial to
7 all parties if they were informed of the purposes for which the census
8 was intended to be used before it would make submissions.
9 In an e-mail, dated the 13th of April, 2010, the Chamber observed
10 the following: That was an e-mail addressed to the parties. Under
11 Rule 89(C) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, admission of a
12 document depends on relevance and probative value. With respect to
13 relevance, the Chamber notes that the 1991 population census provides
14 data on the size of the population and its ethnic composition for
15 specific areas in the Republic of Croatia
16 context and/or corroboration to other evidence before the Chamber and
17 assist it in making factual determinations relevant to the indictment.
18 The Chamber is aware that the census data relate to 1991 and
19 emphasises that any decision on admission would not be an indication of
20 the weight, if any, which the Chamber may ultimately attach to the census
21 and its content.
22 In that same e-mail, the parties were invited to make any further
23 submissions, not later than the 20th of April, which is today. Is the
24 Chamber to expect any further submissions by today or ...
25 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, I can just state it orally, if the
1 Chamber doesn't mind.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind.
3 MR. MISETIC: Very briefly. In light of the Chamber's reference
4 to 89(C), I think obviously it will be admissible as is. Our suggestion
5 or offer, I guess, is if the Chamber has specific issues or questions
6 related to population issues, whether broadly or in a particular area, we
7 certainly would invite the Chamber to invite the parties to make further
8 submissions so that the parties can address any issues that the Chamber
9 might have.
10 But as to the admissibility of the document, I believe the
11 Chamber does have the authority and the Rules to ask for the evidence,
12 and obviously it would be admissible under 89(C).
13 JUDGE ORIE: Which means now there are no objections anymore to
14 the full census to be admitted into evidence. I'm looking at the
15 parties. Who is going to upload the complete census?
16 MR. HEDARALY: It's already uploaded as 65 ter 7575 [Realtime
17 transcript read in error "7557"], Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to the ...
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I suggest that we make it a Chamber exhibit
21 which explains what --
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour --
23 JUDGE ORIE: What the original of the admission into evidence is.
24 Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned
1 Exhibit C5. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Before I -- I saw you were on your feet,
3 Mr. Hedaraly.
4 MR. HEDARALY: I just wanted to inform Mr. Registrar, when the
5 transcript came out as 7557. It was 65 ter 7575, so there is no
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes 7575. C5 is admitted into evidence.
8 The Chamber appreciates the offer that it can seek, if it wishes
9 to do so, the assistance of the parties in further exploring population
11 Then I move on to the next item.
12 The Chamber has notified the parties on the 19th of April of its
13 decision to deny the request of the Gotovina Defence for leave to reply
14 with regard to the motion requesting the Trial Chamber to issue decisions
15 on certain motions by no later than 30 April 2010.
16 We are talking about two motions: Prosecution's application for
17 an order pursuant to Rule 54 bis, that's one of them; the other one is
18 the motion, in which the Gotovina Defence seeks enforcement of the
19 Trial Chamber's previous Rule 54 bis order compelling access to the
20 archives of the EUMM.
21 Now, I think today the Gotovina Defence communicated they desired
22 to be heard on that issue. Is that what happened?
23 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, there is a decision which was
25 communicated to the parties yesterday in an informal way.
1 MR. KEHOE: And, Mr. President, that -- we didn't attempt to
2 relitigate that particular issue. It was just given where we were
3 scheduling-wise, some indication from the Chamber whether or not there
4 would be a decision on that score, on the motion --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If would you not mind, if you would deal with
6 that tomorrow --
7 MR. KEHOE: That's fine, sir.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- if at all possible. But it's on our mind, and
9 we'll see whether we can further deal with the matter tomorrow.
10 MR. KEHOE: Just so I can be clear, and with all due respect to
11 counsel, we were not attempting to relitigate the issue that was denied
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. And today we might not have --
14 how much time would you need to make further submissions, Mr. Kehoe.
15 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, we weren't necessarily going to go
16 into that which we were going to raise in the response. But if -- I
17 don't -- I think what we just were just asking the Chamber is a
18 discussion on whether or not we can expect a decision on the motion.
19 That's all.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The motion asks for a decision to be rendered
21 within a certain time, and now you're inquiring whether this motion --
22 MR. KEHOE: Correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- when we'll -- it's --
24 MR. KEHOE: It's -- clearly they're connected, when will there be
25 a decision or will there be a decision on the Prosecutor's Rule 54 bis
1 motion prior to 30th of April, given where we are in the court
2 proceedings at this juncture.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. There are --
4 MR. KEHOE: And that is also tied to our motion, of course, to
5 request such a decision. So they're merged.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you want to know when you will receive a
7 decision on the motion in which you ask other motions will be decided
8 within a certain time-frame.
9 MR. KEHOE: And if that -- such a decision will be by the 30th of
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. It's perfectly clear, Mr. Kehoe.
12 MR. MISETIC: Mr. President, just one short procedural matter
13 before we break, is that my client, and I believe all three of clients,
14 wish permission to be excused from attending the hearing tomorrow.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is fully understandable, that you would
16 rather not be present and that you rely on counsel dealing appropriately
17 and accurately with the matters which are on the table.
18 Therefore, leave is granted for all three.
19 One, and last one, the Markac Defence has requested that a
20 section of the transcript relating to Donji Lapac be moved from private
21 session and put into open session. I did put that on the record on the
22 26th of March.
23 Now, we have not heard of any objections since then by any of the
24 other parties. Are there any?
25 MR. HEDARALY: Not from the Prosecution, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I do not hear any objections from the
2 other parties, which means that the Registrar is hereby instructed to
3 unseal pages 27860, line 22, to 27861, line 19.
4 We'll adjourn for the day, and we'll continue -- resume on
5 Wednesday morning, the 21st of April, 9.00, in Courtroom I.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of
8 April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.