Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 28894

 1                           Thursday, 10 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning to

 8     everyone in and around the courtroom.  This is the case IT-06-90-T, the

 9     Prosecutor versus Ante Gotovina et al.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11             I'd like to start today with delivering a decision.  It is a

12     decision on the Cermak Defence request for leave to call two witnesses in

13     response to the re-opened Prosecution's case.

14             On the 19th of May, 2010, the Cermak Defence requested leave to

15     call evidence in response to the re-opened Prosecution case and leave to

16     call two proposed witnesses and to add them to its Rule 65 ter witness

17     list.

18             On the 20th of May, pursuant to Rule 126 bis of the Rules of

19     Procedure and Evidence, the Chamber set the deadline for responding to

20     the request at the 26th of May, 2010, and informed the parties

21     accordingly by means of an informal communication.

22             On the 26th of May, 2010, the Prosecution and the

23     Gotovina Defence responded that they did not object to the request.

24             On the 27th of May, the Chamber informed the parties that it

25     granted the Cermak Defence's request and instructed the Cermak Defence to

Page 28895

 1     file an addendum to its Rule 65 ter witness list by the 1st of June.

 2             On the same day, the Markac Defence filed a late response,

 3     indicating that it, too, did not object to the request.  The Chamber has

 4     not considered the Markac Defence's late response in reaching its

 5     decision.

 6             Under Article 21(4)(e) of the Statute of the Tribunal, the

 7     accused is entitled to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses

 8     on his behalf under the same conditions as witnesses against him.

 9             Pursuant to Rule 85(A) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence,

10     the Defence is entitled to present evidence after the Prosecution's

11     evidence, unless otherwise directed by the Chamber.

12             The Chamber considers that the other parties have not objected to

13     the Cermak Defence request to call evidence in response to the

14     Prosecution's re-opened case.

15             The Chamber further considers that the expected testimony of the

16     witnesses the Cermak Defence seeks to call in response relates directly

17     to that of the witnesses called by the Prosecution in its re-opened case

18     and that the time required for hearing the proposed witnesses would be

19     limited.

20             For these reasons, the Chamber grants the Cermak Defence's

21     requests.

22             And this concludes the Chamber's decision.

23             For the next item, I'd like to move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 28896











11 Page 28896 redacted. Private session.
















Page 28897

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.

 4             Is the Cermak Defence ready to call its next witness?

 5             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  May I take it that your next witness is

 7     Mr. Vrticevic?

 8             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  With the Court's leave, I call

 9     Mr. Vrticevic.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

11                           [The witness entered court]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Vrticevic.  Can you hear me in a

13     language you understand?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, before you give evidence, the Rules

16     require that you make a solemn declaration, of which the text will now be

17     handed out to you by Mr. Usher.

18             May I invite to you make that solemn declaration.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  IVICA VRTICEVIC

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Vrticevic.  Please be seated.

24             Mr. Vrticevic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay is

25     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

Page 28898

 1             Mr. Kay, please proceed.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Kay:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vrticevic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I'd like you to look at the screen in front of you, and I'm going

 7     to call up a document now.

 8             MR. KAY:  2D00865.

 9        Q.   And the document that should be coming will be a witness

10     statement taken from you in your own language.

11             If you could just look at that page there.  And do you recognise

12     as that being a witness statement that was taken from you and signed by

13     you on the 13th of May, 2010?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I'd like you now to look at the last page of that statement in

16     your own language.

17             MR. KAY:  We have two versions of the English language.  If we

18     could have the one in the witness's own language, please.  That's the

19     most important document here.  We did have both versions of the

20     document --

21             JUDGE ORIE:  It will be there.

22             MR. KAY:

23        Q.   Can you see there at the -- at the end of the statement taken

24     from you, do you recognise there your signature, Mr. Vrticevic?  We -- we

25     seem to have gremlins in the system and it changes just as I'm referring

Page 28899

 1     to a document.

 2             MR. KAY:  Can we just keep it on the last page, please.  I

 3     promise I will be quick.

 4        Q.   Do you recognise there your signature, Mr. Vrticevic, at the end

 5     of this statement taken on the 13th of May, 2010?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And since that statement was taken from you and you signed it,

 8     have you had an opportunity to read through that statement carefully to

 9     check it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And is everything that is contained in that statement, to the

12     best of your knowledge and belief, true and correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   If I was to ask you today in court the same questions, would you

15     give the same answers and information as contained in that statement, if

16     I asked those questions today?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. KAY:  In those circumstances, Your Honour, I request that

20     this be made an exhibit.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  I hear of no objections from any party.

22             Madam Registrar, the number of the 92 ter statement of

23     Mr. Vrticevic would be ...

24             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D2052, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  D2052 is admitted into evidence.

Page 28900

 1             Please proceed.

 2             MR. KAY:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   I'm going to ask you some questions now about some other

 4     interviews that took place with you, Mr. Vrticevic.

 5             MR. KAY:  First of all, could we have Exhibit P2731 on the

 6     screen.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  We had received no

 9     notification that that issue would be addressed.  In the motion that

10     General Cermak's counsel filed that Your Honour referred to today, the

11     issue for which this witness was called was to rebut the previous

12     evidence and to show the whereabouts of certain people.  Similarly

13     there's nothing in this 92 ter statement discussing any prior interviews.

14             In addition, the exhibits that we received for this witness,

15     until yesterday, only included the ones that were appended to the

16     statement.  Only at 9.06 this morning did we receive any notice that

17     these interviews would be covered in the examination of this witness.

18     And it's just not proper.  It's too late.  And therefore I would object

19     to this whole line of questioning.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay.

21             MR. KAY:  I could do it without referring to the exhibit, if that

22     inconveniences anyone to look at the paper.  I don't mind doing that.  I

23     can do it by general questions.  I was just seeking to assist the Court

24     on matters that have arisen last week in this court and to ask this

25     witness for his evidence on the matter.

Page 28901

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, is it your position that you say I would as

 2     easily do without and just draw the attention of the Court to that

 3     statement, or do you -- or would you prefer and therefore ask the Chamber

 4     to rule on the objection?

 5             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I don't require a ruling on it.  I can

 6     deal with it just as simply without.  I was attempting to assist --

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 8             MR. KAY: -- anyone who needed to be assisted; if they don't, then

 9     I won't do anything more.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Hedaraly, you'll understand that since we

11     can manage ourselves, the e-court system, it may that be P2731 will be on

12     the Judges' screens anyhow, but --

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, maybe my --

14             JUDGE ORIE: -- that apparently is not --

15             MR. HEDARALY:  Maybe my objection was misunderstood.  It was not

16     to refer to the document, it was to that line of questioning for which we

17     had received no notice.  So if Mr. Kay puts questions to the witness,

18     whether or not he relies on the exhibit itself, I agree with Mr. Kay and

19     I agree with the Chamber that putting the document on the screen is not

20     the issue.  The issue is notice about a topic that was going to be

21     addressed, and that's a notice that was not provided until 9.06 this

22     morning and until Mr. Kay asked his first question now.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  But let me just see.  The line of questioning -- the

24     only thing we've heard, until now, is that Mr. Kay would ask some

25     questions about some other interviews and asked P2731 to be on the

Page 28902

 1     screen.  What the questions will be and in what way they are fit into the

 2     65 ter summary, I do not know; and I think we have not received, not at

 3     six minutes past 9.00 this morning, any further notice.  But perhaps I

 4     should check my e-mail and see whether it.

 5             I suggest that Mr. Kay continues his examination.  And if there's

 6     any matter you think is -- is not in sufficiently direct relation to what

 7     is in the 65 ter summary, then we hear from you.

 8             Mr. Kay.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10        Q.   Mr. Vrticevic, do you know Jozo Bilobrk?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you work with him in the Split-Dalmatia Police Administration

13     Forensic Unit?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Were you ever interviewed by the Defence team for General Markac

16     with Jozo Bilobrk?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   You were interviewed by police officers in the Republic of

19     Croatia last year; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   In relation to those interviews, did you withhold any information

22     from the people interviewing you?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   In relation to events at Grubori on the 27th of August, 1995, you

25     were part of the forensic examination team that attended that village; is

Page 28903

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On that day, did anyone ever suggest to you that weapons should

 4     be planted at the crime scene so that it looked like a combat action had

 5     taken place?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did Mr. Bilobrk ever pass on information to you that a suggestion

 8     had been heard by him that that could happen?

 9        A.   No.

10             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, those are all the questions that I ask of

11     the witness, and I provide him for the parties for cross-examination.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, will it be you or will it be

15     Mr. Carrier who will cross-examine the witness.

16             MR. HEDARALY:  I think for Defence witnesses the other Defence

17     teams first have an opportunity.  I believe, if I remember correctly the

18     procedure, Your Honour.  I don't know if they have any questions.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I see from the body language of Mr. Kehoe that

20     he has no questions.

21             Mr. Mikulicic -- Mr. Kuzmanovic.

22             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             Yes, just one, possibly two, depending on the answer.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Then I --

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 28904

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kuzmanovic, you have an opportunity to

 2     cross-examine the witness.

 3             Mr. Vrticevic, you are now cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic.

 4     Mr. Kuzmanovic is counsel for Mr. Markac.

 5             Please proceed.

 6             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

 8        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vrticevic.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   Mr. Kay asked you a question about whether or not you were

11     interviewed together with Mr. Bilobrk by any members of the

12     Markac Defence, and your answer to that question was no.

13             My question to you is:  At any time in the last two years did you

14     meet with or be interviewed by any member of the Markac Defence team?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. KUZMANOVIC:  That's all I have, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kuzmanovic.

19             Perhaps before -- one question, rather, to complete that matter.

20             Have you ever been in any way in communication with the

21     Markac Defence?  Did you receive a phone call, did you write a letter,

22     did they write you a letter, did -- was there any e-mail exchange?

23             So was there ever any contact with the Simatovic Defence --

24     the -- I'm sorry.  With the Markac Defence?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

Page 28905

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Hedaraly, you're ready to cross-examine the witness?

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, you will now be cross-examined by

 5     Mr. Hedaraly, and Mr. Hedaraly is counsel for -- is counsel for the

 6     Prosecution.

 7             Please proceed.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you.

 9                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

10        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Vrticevic.

11        A.   Good morning.

12        Q.   I have a few questions for you regarding the statement that you

13     gave to the Cermak Defence team.

14             First of all, you stated in that statement that looking at

15     contemporaneous documents that you were shown you remember that you first

16     went to Strmica on the 27th of August and then went to Plavno; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, can you tell us whether this is something that you actually

20     remember, as you sit here today, that you went to Strmica and that you

21     then went to Plavno, or is it simply a conclusion that are you drawing

22     from looking at these documents?

23        A.   No, I remembered.

24        Q.   You also stated that, on the morning of the 27th of August,

25     before setting out that day to carry out your tasks, you were in a

Page 28906

 1     coffee-shop with some colleagues while Mr. Bilobrk went to the

 2     Knin Police Station to get reports; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You don't know what happened while Mr. Bilobrk went to the police

 5     station; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   You don't know who he talked to or what specific instructions he

 8     may have received or anything of that sort, right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   According to your account, you went to Strmica first and then to

11     Plavno.  Do you remember stopping by the Knin cemetery to leave the

12     corpse you had collected from Strmica on the way back?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So you remember stopping at the cemetery on the way back?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And were you with the members of the civil protection the whole

17     time while they were actually burying the corpse?

18        A.   At -- on certain occasions we would be with them, on others we

19     wouldn't.  And I can't recall specifically on that day whether we were

20     there.

21        Q.   When you say "we" in that answer, you mean you and Mr. Bilobrk?

22        A.   That's right.

23        Q.   So you don't know if, on that day, when you came back to the --

24     when the -- when your colleagues from civil protection buried the body in

25     the cemetery, whether you were there or whether you were maybe in town in

Page 28907

 1     Knin having a coffee or something else, right?

 2        A.   I don't remember if I was present while they were burying them.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness come closer to the microphones,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, could you please come a bit closer to

 6     the microphone because the interpreters have difficulties hearing you.

 7             MR. HEDARALY:

 8        Q.   On your way to Grubori --

 9             MR. KAY:  Just looking at that question, he never mentioning

10     anything about having a coffee at the time, and maybe it should be --

11             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] ...

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Perhaps it should be explored in a bit more detail.

14             MR. HEDARALY:

15        Q.   On the days when you would not stay at the -- let me start again.

16             You said sometimes you would stay at the cemetery while the

17     bodies would be buried and sometimes you would not.  On the days where

18     would you not, if you remember, what did you do, generally?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   On your way to Grubori, you were stopped in the village of

21     Plavno; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   You don't know why you were stopped; right?

24        A.   Right.

25        Q.   You don't know whether the group that was assembled there was

Page 28908

 1     waiting for you and your colleagues and wanted to discuss a matter with

 2     you; right?

 3        A.   That's right.

 4        Q.   You already knew who Mr. Cermak was when you arrived at that --

 5     in Plavno; correct?

 6        A.   I had previously only seen him on TV, and that was the first time

 7     I saw him in real life, so to speak, and I didn't know what his function

 8     was.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat the last part of his

10     answer.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, could you invite the witness to repeat

12     the last part of his answer.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  Of course.

14        Q.   Could you please repeat the last part of your answer.  I'm not

15     sure we received the complete interpretation of your answer.

16             If could you repeat last portion, please.

17        A.   So I had previously seen Mr. Cermak on TV.  That was the first

18     time I saw him.  But I didn't know what his function was or what he was

19     charged with.

20        Q.   Okay.  My question was simply if you already knew who he was, not

21     about his functions.  But I understand your answer.

22             Now, at that -- at that that location in Plavno, there was a

23     discussion and there was some argument; correct?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   There was no argument about whether journalists should film you

Page 28909

 1     while you carried out your tasks?

 2        A.   That's a different matter.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Well, it's not a different matter.  I asked you whether there was

 4     a discussion and some argument, and you said no.  I mean, I don't think I

 5     understand your answer.

 6        A.   Well, I didn't understand your question.

 7        Q.   So there was an argument there?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you reacted unfavourably to the suggestion that journalists

10     film you while you carried out your tasks; right?

11        A.   Yes.  I didn't agree to that.

12        Q.   You didn't -- did you not want anyone filming you while you were

13     collecting bodies?

14        A.   Right.

15        Q.   Do you remember who made the suggestion that journalists should

16     film you and your colleagues on that day?

17        A.   I don't.

18        Q.   Was there also an argument regarding whether or not to carry

19     [sic] an on-site investigation?

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   Do you remember even generally any discussion about an on-site

22     investigation?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Let me show you 65 ter 7622.  And that is the statement you gave

25     to the Office of the Prosecutor in March earlier this year.

Page 28910

 1             Do you remember that interview that you had with the

 2     Office of the Prosecutor on the 4th of March, 2010?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   That is your signature at the bottom of the page?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And in the course of that interview, you were shown various

 7     interview notes that had been prepared by colleagues of yours from the

 8     police force; correct?

 9        A.   Right.

10             MR. HEDARALY:  If we can go to paragraph 3, the second page of

11     this statement.

12        Q.   And you say there:

13             "I also reviewed the Official Note of the second interview with

14     Robert Badzim of the MUP (first page stamped with number 0673-8523).

15     This note is generally accurate, but I am willing to repeat the whole

16     story again."

17             Let me now show you that note that you referred to as generally

18     accurate.

19             MR. HEDARALY:  And that is P2734.

20        Q.   And you'll see the number on the top is the same one referred --

21     that was in your statement.

22             And at the bottom, in the English, the last sentence reads:

23             "General Cermak asked Vrticevic to do an on-site investigation in

24     the village of Grubori, but he replied that in order to do an on-site

25     investigation he needed to notify the State Prosecutor, an investigative

Page 28911

 1     judge, and a forensic officer to assist the investigative judge."

 2             The end will appear in the English on the screen.

 3             MR. HEDARALY:  You have to turn the page.

 4        Q.   Now, in your OTP statement you said that this note was generally

 5     accurate.  So can you explain whether or not there was any discussion of

 6     an on-site investigation on that day?

 7        A.   This note drafted by the gentleman who held the interview is

 8     quite inaccurate.  And you will recall, sir, when you interviewed me,

 9     that I told you at the outset that we would not be looking at this as

10     much, that it was quite superficial, that it wasn't properly drafted, and

11     that I would be giving you the details concerning this event, if you

12     remember correctly.

13        Q.   What is in your statement and what I remember and it's clear in

14     your statement you were shown three different interview notes.  And that

15     one is the only one that you agreed was generally accurate when you

16     reviewed them.

17             So what I'm telling you is, are you now saying that this note

18     isn't accurate when you said on 4 March 2010 that this -- this one

19     specifically, not the other ones, was generally accurate?

20        A.   I don't recall whether I said that it was accurate or inaccurate.

21     But let me repeat.  I said that I would recount the events of the day

22     again, and you agreed with me, that this is what we would do during the

23     interview.

24        Q.   Do you want to look back at the statement and see what you said?

25     Because you also signed that interview after it was read back to you,

Page 28912

 1     correct, and you confirmed that it was accurate?

 2             I mean, we can look back if you want, the portion I read you

 3     about that note being -- being generally accurate.  That's all I'm

 4     focussing on now, not on what else happened in the interview but whether

 5     you stated that this note on the screen was generally accurate.

 6        A.   You read the statement back to me, and I signed it; but I didn't

 7     see it.

 8        Q.   That's right.  But when it was read back to you, it was accurate,

 9     in terms of what you heard, and then you signed it; correct?

10        A.   It's hard to remember everything.  The entire statement was read

11     back to me, and it was read back.  It's difficult to follow.

12        Q.   Let me move on.  Let me then go back to the OTP statement.

13             MR. HEDARALY:  65 ter 7622.

14        Q.   And go to the rest of your statement where you were actually

15     telling the story as had you -- as you had expressed a desire to do.  And

16     this time I want to go to paragraph 9 when it comes up on the screen.

17             And in paragraph 9, you then stated:

18             "During the first interview with Badzim" -- and that's the joint

19     one, not the one we just saw but the one with you and Mr. Bilobrk

20     together, "... I remember Bilobrk stating that someone had requested an

21     on-site investigation and some argument regarding this.  When I heard

22     this, it rang a bell, but I really can't remember any details."

23             Was that the truth, that you heard some general comment about an

24     on-site investigation and that when -- sorry.

25             Is it true that when Mr. Bilobrk mentioned that at the joint

Page 28913

 1     interview, it did ring a bell but you couldn't remember the details?

 2        A.   I heard Bilobrk mention this, as is written here, but I really

 3     don't remember that.  That's why I told you so, that I didn't remember.

 4        Q.   Well you said it rang a --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, the statement says that it rang a

 6     bell, but you didn't remember the details.  Now when you gave that

 7     statement, did you say that you didn't remember the details but that,

 8     when hearing Bilobrk stating about this conversation on an on-site

 9     investigation, did you tell the Prosecutor that it did ring a bell but

10     that you didn't remember the details?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  If that's what is written

12     here, then I did.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, I'd like to hear from you whether that's what

14     you said or not.

15             Was that, in your recollection, what was read back to you; and is

16     that what you signed for?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's hard to remember, Your Honour.

18     Who could remember that?  I was recounting the whole story five or six

19     times already.  It's difficult to keep track of everything.  I know that

20     when we met at that particular cross-roads in Plavno, that I wasn't close

21     by.  I was having a smoke with the colleagues from the civilian

22     protection, Jozo was there.  I don't know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  I'm not asking about what happened at the time.  I'm

24     asking you whether, when you were interviewed by the Office of the

25     Prosecution, whether you stated that hearing Bilobrk talking about or

Page 28914

 1     stating about a conversation on an on-site investigation, that you, at

 2     that moment - that is, March of this year - whether you said, Well, it

 3     does ring a bell but that I don't remember the details.

 4             Is that what you said or is it -- or didn't you say that?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember anymore.  I can't

 6     give you a yes or no answer.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

 8             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   As you sit here today, does the mention of an on-site

10     investigation ring a bell at all as one of the possible topics of

11     conversations you may have heard or been involved in?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   When you arrived in Grubori, did you conduct an on-site

14     investigation?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   In all the cases where you carried [sic] sanitation operations

17     after Operation Storm, did you ever conduct any on-site investigations?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Did you ever refuse to answer any questions because it would be

20     detrimental to the generals?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   In the joint interview that you had with Mr. Bilobrk, did

23     Bilobrk -- did Mr. Bilobrk mention having been interviewed by members of

24     the Defence team?

25        A.   Yes.  He told me that he had been with them.

Page 28915

 1        Q.   He also said that to the person that was interviewing both of you

 2     together; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And in that interview, although I understand you didn't say it,

 5     did Mr. Bilobrk refuse to answer questions that would be detrimental to

 6     the generals?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Well, we can look at it.  That joint interview states that those

 9     comments were made by you and him, and I understand it was a joint

10     interview, and one of the concerns you had was that it's not clear who

11     had said what.  I can show it to you, if you want.

12             But my simple question is:  You said you didn't say such a thing.

13     In that interview, do you remember Mr. Bilobrk saying he would not answer

14     questions because they would be detrimental to the generals?

15        A.   I don't remember.  The only thing I know is that Mr. Bilobrk told

16     that colleague that he had been interviewed by the Defence for

17     General Markac a while before that particular interview took place.

18     That's something I remember.

19        Q.   In that joint interview, do you remember who was answering most

20     of the questions that were -- that were put to both of you?  Was it both

21     of you answering together, was it mainly Mr. Bilobrk, or was it mainly

22     you?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. HEDARALY:  Those are my questions, Your Honour.

Page 28916

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, I have a few questions for you.

 4                           Questioned by the Court:

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  First, you said that you had seen Mr. Cermak on TV.

 6     Let me read what was -- what we find on our transcript.

 7             You were asked:

 8             "You already knew who Mr. Cermak was when you arrived at

 9     that -- in Plavno; correct?"

10             Your answer was:

11             "I had previously only seen him on TV, and that was the first

12     time I saw him in real life, so to speak, and I didn't know what his

13     function was."

14             And then you were invited to repeat the last part of your answer.

15             And you said:

16             "So I" -- and there the text is a bit unclear.  I take it that it

17     should read:

18             "So I had previously seen Mr. Cermak on TV.  That was the first

19     time I saw him.  But I didn't know what his function was or what he was

20     charged with."

21             Could you tell us, in what context did you see him on television

22     before the day you went to Grubori?

23        A.   I saw him a number of times on TV, but that's all.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you tell me in what context?  What was it

25     about that he was telling you on television?

Page 28917

 1        A.   I don't remember.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you also said that you didn't know what he was

 3     charged with.

 4             Why did you mention this, that, apparently, you didn't know when

 5     you saw him what he was charged with?

 6        A.   That was how I understood the Prosecutor's question.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  You said you went on that day first to Strmica.  Do

 8     you -- could you tell us any further details on that day?  At what time

 9     in the morning did you receive instructions to go to Strmica, or where

10     were you when you were informed about going to Strmica?

11        A.   I don't remember exactly where I was, but my colleague Bilobrk

12     always went to the station, and he received orders about where we should

13     go and what we needed to do.  I don't remember whether I was in a cafe or

14     in a car or at the cemetery.  Sometimes there was no work in the morning,

15     so we wouldn't be at the cemetery because there was no need for the

16     sanitation.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Do you remember at what time

18     approximately you heard that you would be heading for Strmica?

19        A.   I can't remember.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any recollection on what you found in

21     Strmica?  Was it the ordinary thing; one body, more bodies?  What did

22     you do?

23        A.   I don't remember.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember how much time it took you to -- to

25     go from Knin to Strmica?

Page 28918

 1        A.   No.  No, I don't remember.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember how much time you spent on doing the

 3     job in Strmica?

 4        A.   No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember how much time it took you to get

 6     back to Knin?

 7             But, first, you did go back to Knin first; is that correctly

 8     understood?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, could you tell us, what did you do in

11     Knin?  Did you and Mr. Bilobrk, or you alone, or Mr. Bilobrk alone, go to

12     the cemetery?

13        A.   We always went together.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  On that day, did you go to the cemetery?

15        A.   Yes, we did.  We always went there together, let me repeat that,

16     Your Honour.  We never separated.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You mean you did not separate from

18     Mr. Bilobrk, or did you not separate from the -- the people who

19     accompanied you?

20             Perhaps you tell us exactly what the team was you went to Strmica

21     with.  It was you, Mr. Bilobrk, and who else?

22        A.   Most probably civil protection.  I cannot remember the names from

23     the people from the civilian protection who were working with us on a

24     daily basis in the same team.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  How many of them were with you?

Page 28919

 1        A.   They went in a van.  There were two people, at least.  Never less

 2     than two.  Two men.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Did they transport the body that was found in

 4     Strmica to the cemetery?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you accompany them?

 7        A.   We did reach the cemetery, but whether we waited for the burial

 8     or not, I cannot remember.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Who would be in charge of the burial?

10        A.   Also our colleagues from civilian protection who were working

11     with the excavator and who placed crosses and who also had to determine

12     whether the identity of the person had been established or not.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Would that be the same persons you were with that

14     accompanied you to and from Strmica?

15        A.   They were a team, but sometimes they would switch.  Some had to

16     go into the field and some remained at the cemetery, so I cannot remember

17     who it was because they switched places sometimes.  But these were the

18     people who were there.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  On that day, did the team you were with, the

20     civilian protection team, did that change after your trip to Strmica?

21        A.   I think not.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Would those civilian protection -- would that

23     civilian protection team would that [sic] leave the body unburied in Knin

24     when they went with you in the field again, or would they have buried the

25     body first, whether or not in your presence?

Page 28920

 1        A.   They would bury them, regardless of whether I was present on the

 2     spot or not.  But whether they left them there or not, I'm not certain,

 3     but I think they didn't.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  By -- when you say "left them there," you are

 5     referring to left them there not yet being buried?  Or how do I have to

 6     understand your answer?

 7        A.   No, no.  As far as I remember, there was one man with the

 8     excavator who would dig out a grave and then they would bury them in the

 9     graves and they would put crosses there.  So it was like that for half a

10     day or a day.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Could you explain the last part of your answer where

12     you said:  "So it was like that for half a day or a day."

13        A.   I didn't say that it was like that for half a day or a day.  I

14     said that immediately they would dig a grave with an excavator and they

15     would place bags with dead bodies in the ground.  They would put crosses.

16     And they would be received an ID number or first and last name, if the

17     identity was known.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now let me take you back to -- later going to

19     Grubori.

20             I think you stated that you told Sacic that you wouldn't want to

21     be filmed or -- when you are doing your job.

22        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I remember that quite well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, could you tell us who were with you when you

24     did your job?  That is, photographing and taking pictures of the bodies.

25        A.   My colleague Mr. Bilobrk and myself were there.

Page 28921

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Sacic did not supervise your work?

 2        A.   Mr. Sacic brought us to the vicinity of the village in his jeep

 3     and then we went to do out work.  We photographed and took pictures.

 4     Where he was during that time, I really don't know.  But I remember that

 5     when my colleague Mr. Jozo and I returned, I remember that he was waiting

 6     for us next to his jeep.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, Do you remember at approximately what

 8     time you finished your work?

 9        A.   I can't remember.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you then go back to Knin again?

11        A.   Yes.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you go to the cemetery or did you go elsewhere?

13        A.   To the cemetery.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember, then, what happened at the

15     cemetery?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Were the corpses buried in your presence or not in

18     your presence?  Do you know whether they were buried?

19        A.   I can't remember whether they were buried in my presence because

20     I don't remember.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time does it usually take to do all the

22     paperwork which is related to the sanitation of a body?

23        A.   It depends whether the body was fresh or whether putrefaction had

24     begun.  It is necessary to take finger-prints on cardboard then to make a

25     list of any scars or if there are personal identification papers on the

Page 28922

 1     body, the clothes and the footwear, the place where the body was found,

 2     village or hamlet, the time and date, and then two or three photographs

 3     are taken, and that's it.  I'm not certain how much time is needed, but

 4     maybe ten or 15 minutes.  It's not easy when you have to take

 5     finger-prints on your own, so a colleague usually helps with that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you have any recollection on how difficult and

 7     how time-consuming it was to describe and photograph the bodies in

 8     Grubori?

 9        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  I asked you whether you have any recollection on --

11     on how difficult and, therefore, how time-consuming, what time it took to

12     describe the bodies and to photograph them, specifically those that you

13     found in Grubori.

14        A.   I don't remember how long it took or whether it was difficult or

15     not.  I don't know.

16             There were many of them, so I don't remember it all.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  I have no further questions at this moment.

18             Have the questions, cross-examination, or questions by the Bench

19     triggered any further need to re-examination the witness, Mr. Kay?

20             MR. KAY:  There may be just one ambiguity.  It may have been

21     cleared up, but I couldn't find it on the screen.  But I will see if I

22     can do it.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Kay:

24        Q.   You mentioned from the civil protection that there were people in

25     the field and then there was a -- a man or others at the cemetery, a man

Page 28923

 1     a with an excavator.  Was the civil protection team divided into two?

 2        A.   I don't know how they were organised and if they would split into

 3     groups or not.  But of the four or five of them, five would never go with

 4     us, but two or three.  And then two would always stay at the cemetery in

 5     Knin.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. KAY:  That's all I needed to ask.

 8             Your Honours, there's a matter arising from cross-examination by

 9     the Prosecution.  65 ter 7622.  Could that be made an exhibit?

10             JUDGE ORIE:  That is the --

11             MR. KAY:  That is the statement to the Prosecution.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  That's the joint statement.

13             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... witness statement.  No.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  No, no, the -- yes, the March statement.

15             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... which is the witness --

16             JUDGE ORIE: -- witness 3rd of March --

17             MR. KAY:  [Overlapping speakers] ... witness statement.

18             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... 4th of March.

19             MR. KAY:  Yes.  Witness statement of Mr. Vrticevic to my learned

20     friend and his colleagues on the 4th of March.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Until now we have followed procedurally the

22     line that, to the extent certain portions were read or put to the

23     witness, that that would be then on the record, avoiding, thus, to have

24     the whole of the statement, also portions which were not put to a

25     witness, to have that in evidence.  But before -- you may remember that

Page 28924

 1     we had a similar issue with the Markac Defence.  But before we further

 2     explore what we did, let's first try to find out whether Mr. Hedaraly in

 3     any way objects.

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, I don't have an objection.  It just

 5     raises the issue of a statement taken for the purposes of this

 6     proceeding.  I can guess we can have the witness 92 ter it, I guess, or

 7     confirm his signature or something like.  But that's my only concern.  I

 8     have no objection to it being in evidence.  It's just I don't know how

 9     the Court wishes to deal with it because of the situation that has

10     happened in the past, as the court has pointed out.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it --

12             MR. KAY:  It can't be 92 ter because he said there was a degree

13     of inaccuracy about how parts were written.

14             What I'm concerned with, and it arises from Your Honour's

15     questions because paragraph 7 has a consistency in this witness's

16     evidence which I think this trial will have overlooked or not taken

17     sufficiently into account, if there are any thoughts about the evidence,

18     and in my submission that would be unfair to the accused and the witness.

19              And paragraph 6, paragraph 7, I can go through them with him, if

20     that's required in re-examination, and it arises from Your Honours'

21     questioning.  But there are significant features within this statement

22     that go to the consistency of his account in the 92 ter statement.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  What you're seeking as a matter of fact is a partial

24     attestation, paragraphs --

25             MR. KAY:  Yes.

Page 28925

 1             JUDGE ORIE: -- you think that should be in evidence; whereas in

 2     other respects, especially paragraph 3, you consider not fit to be

 3     92 ter'd, to say it in that way?

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes, I have problems with "generally accurate," as to

 5     what that means, and I was waiting to see if my learned friend was going

 6     to investigate what "generally accurate" means because that carries with

 7     it that there may be ungenerally inaccurate parts which don't reflect the

 8     whole but do reflect part.  And, to be frank, I am not sure how much the

 9     proceedings would be served by going into that.

10             I'm quite willing to do so, but I've taken a -- a view on it.  I

11     don't know whether that finds favour with the Court or not, and I don't

12     want to burden us with too many aspects of evidence.

13             But paragraphs 6 and 7 are, in my submission, relevant.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest the following.  That -- but I'm seeking

15     the parties' advice on the matter.

16             The portion considered relevant by Mr. Hedaraly was almost

17     literally put to the witness, especially what interview the witness was

18     talking about in paragraph 3, who had taken that interview, and -- that

19     is, the Badzim interview, and what he stated in relation to that.

20             I suggest that we slowly read to him paragraphs 6 and 7 to see

21     whether he confirms what he said at the time.

22             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour, I --

23             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             MR. KAY: [Overlapping speakers] ...

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Then we don't have to enter into all kind of

Page 28926

 1     technical problems in view of Rule 92 ter.  And then it is leading, to

 2     some extent, which, of course, is not usually done in

 3     examination-in-chief, but here I see Mr. Hedaraly has no problem with it.

 4             Mr. Kay, I suggest that you slowly read paragraphs 6 and 7, of

 5     which the content you consider to be important, to be part of the

 6     evidence.

 7             MR. KAY:  I'm much obliged to Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 9             MR. KAY:

10        Q.   Mr. Vrticevic, I'm going to read a section from your interview by

11     the Prosecution, and if you comment as to whether it's right or wrong,

12     after I've read it.  Do you understand?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   It comes from paragraph 6 of 65 ter 7622, and it says this:

15             "On the day the human sanitation was carried out in Grubori, I

16     don't remember anything unusual happening in Knin.  I don't remember

17     meeting any group of soldiers or any arguments taking place in Knin.  It

18     was just business as usual, if I can say."

19             To the best of your knowledge and recollection, what do you say

20     about that statement here?

21        A.   That's the truth, what's written there.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             Paragraph 7:

24             "When we arrived in Plavno, there was quite a number of people

25     there already, including General Cermak, some soldiers in uniform around

Page 28927

 1     him who looked like body-guards, and some journalists.  I remember that

 2     someone wanted to send journalists with us to film us while we carried

 3     out our work and ... didn't want my family to see me do this horrible

 4     work.  I refused and so did Bilobrk.  I don't remember how the issue was

 5     resolved."

 6             What is your comment on -- on that statement, please?

 7        A.   This is also the truth, as it is recorded.

 8             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  That's all I deal with from

 9     the matters arising.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Any further questions for the witness?

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, it may be that reviewing some of the

13     evidence and documentation which we'll do over -- during the break, that

14     that may cause the Chamber to add one or more questions.  I'm not saying

15     it will, but we, at least, would like to consider that.

16             Under those circumstances, the Chamber would rather take the

17     break now and see, after the break, whether the witness can be excused or

18     not.

19             Is your next witness ready to be called?

20             MR. KAY:  Yes.  We instructed that that witness be brought here

21     at the end of this session.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             Mr. Vrticevic, we'll first take a break.  It -- there may be more

24     questions for you but not necessarily.  We'll also decide after the break

25     whether you are excused, whether you are free to go or not.  But if we

Page 28928

 1     would like you to remain stand by, it would be for a limited period of

 2     time.

 3             Is that clear to you?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  During the break - I don't know whether you will see

 6     anyone else you may know - but you're hereby instructed not to speak with

 7     anyone about the questions that were asked, the answers you've given.

 8     You should not speak with anyone about it.

 9             We'll take a break, and we resume at 11.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, I have a few questions for, and it

13     concerns a detail of your work in Grubori.

14                           Further Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Who showed you where the bodies were when you

16     arrived in Grubori?

17        A.   I don't remember.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  But someone must have shown the bodies to you.  Or

19     did you have any information as to where to find them?

20        A.   I really don't remember, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you told us that when you did the job,

22     that is, photographing, et cetera, describing the body, that you were

23     there - if I understand you well - with the civil protection sanitation

24     team, and you and Mr. Bilobrk.  Anyone else?

25        A.   In the village, when we were processing the bodies, it was only

Page 28929

 1     Robert and me.  There were no colleagues from the civil protection there.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  And how did they -- did they wait somewhere?

 3     How -- how did this happen?

 4        A.   As far as I can remember, they were down there together with

 5     other people with that group.  And when we finished our job related to

 6     the bodies, then they went to get the van, to put in the bodies, and then

 7     we all left for Knin.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, did you photograph and describe the

 9     bodies all in sequence, and was it after that that the civil protection

10     sanitation team then put all the bodies in the bag?  Or did you go from

11     one body to another body; whereas, when had you finished with the first

12     one, that they already put the bodies in the bag?

13        A.   As far as I can remember, when we did our job, whether I did the

14     photographing or Mr. Bilobrk, I don't really remember.  Maybe I had the

15     camera.  And I also don't remember who was writing the data into the

16     logs.  You could probably check it; you could see the signature.  But

17     what I do remember is that when we finished all that, the people from the

18     civil protection came.  That was the usual procedure.  First we did all

19     of our job and then our colleagues came who would then bag the bodies and

20     take them away.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  So you had dealt with all of the bodies and then the

22     civilian protection sanitation team came in, to bag them and to --

23        A.   Yes, as far as I could remember, that's how it was.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  As far as identification is concerned, do you

25     remember, were the persons who identified the bodies with you, or did

Page 28930

 1     they join when the civil protection sanitation team arrived; and where,

 2     if they were with you, where did you find them?

 3        A.   I really don't remember that.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  But do you remember whether they came to where the

 5     bodies were, or were they taken to the van in which the bodies were

 6     transported?

 7        A.   I really don't remember.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  You also -- do you remember whether, at all, any

 9     civilians inspected the bodies when you were present?

10        A.   I don't remember.  I really don't remember.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, on the forms that were produced for each body

12     you found - I think these are called the K-10 forms - now, there is an

13     empty space where photographs can be attached to that form.  Is that what

14     usually happened, that the photographs were attached - stapled, glued, I

15     do not know - but, were, usually, the photographs attached to the forms?

16        A.   I will repeat, not to you but to those who took my previous

17     statements, the films and the videos that we made there, we would usually

18     hand over.  We would hand them over in the Zadar Police Administration at

19     the crime scene department, Mr. Nevic.  Those films were not developed at

20     that time.  Whether they developed them later or not and whether they

21     were later attached to those forms, I don't know.  Because we also then

22     handed over the forms as well.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I have no further questions for you.

24             Any further questions?

25             Mr. Kay.

Page 28931

 1             MR. KAY:  It may assist on the procedure for identification, if

 2     that's a matter Your Honour is concerned.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what I wanted to know, as a matter of fact,

 4     what the witness can tell about it.  But if you want -- I mean, I raised

 5     the issue.  And if there's any matter you would like to clarify in this

 6     respect, please proceed.

 7                           Further Re-examination by Mr. Kay:

 8             MR. KAY:

 9        Q.   In relation to the questions His Honour just asked you, would it

10     assist your memory of events if you were able to look at the forms

11     written at the time?

12        A.   Maybe, yes.  But those forms, only if -- if I had filled them, if

13     I had signed them, then everything is as it is in the form.

14        Q.   Within the KT-10 forms with which you're familiar, there is a

15     written passage on each which says who identified the body to the

16     forensic examiners, the crime technicians.  Do you recollect that?

17        A.   Yes.  There is such a place in the form, if somebody can confirm

18     that it is such and such person.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Kay, I was more interested in whether

20     there they were taken to the bodies or whether the bodies -- whether they

21     had moved.  And, of course, I've seen that almost all of them give the

22     same person, identifying the bodies, and -- only one is a bit different.

23             But since the witness has no recollection on how it actually

24     happen, who came to where, who found them, who escort them -- escorted

25     them to the place where the bodies were, therefore, that's the reason why

Page 28932

 1     I didn't put any further questions.  But it's -- it may be clear that I

 2     had that one line in the middle of the KT-10 form on my mind when I asked

 3     the witness these questions.

 4             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour, I won't take it any further.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 7             Any further questions?

 8             If not ...

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber is about to instruct the witness to

11     remain stand by for the time when the next witness will testify, to see

12     the -- whether there would be any reason to call him back.  As I said,

13     the Chamber is about to do that, but if the parties would raise any

14     objections in --

15             MR. KAY:  No objection, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, we have concluded your testimony.

17     But the Chamber, nevertheless, would very much like you to remain

18     stand by, most likely for another hour or one hour and a half.  So if the

19     evidence to be heard in the next -- in the examination of the next

20     witness would raise any matter which we'd like to hear from you about as

21     well, that you are still there.

22             Therefore, I again instruct you that you should not speak with

23     anyone about your testimony or to communicate in any other way and to

24     remain at the disposal of the Trial Chamber for -- to start with, the

25     remainder of this morning -- well, let's say, until a quarter to 2.00,

Page 28933

 1     unless you will hear otherwise.

 2             Is that clear?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Could the witness be escorted out of the courtroom

 5     and the next witness could be escorted into the courtroom.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Good morning, Mr. Serdarevic.

10             Before you give --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and

13     Evidence require that you make a solemn declaration, that you will speak

14     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             The text is now handed out to you by the usher, and I would like

16     to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  MILE SERDAREVIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Serdarevic.  Please be seated.

22             Mr. Serdarevic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Kay.  Mr. Kay is

23     counsel for Mr. Cermak.

24             Mr. Kay.

25             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 28934

 1                           Examination by Mr. Kay:

 2        Q.   Mr. Serdarevic, you gave a witness to the Cermak Defence -- a

 3     witness statement, and I'd like you to look at the screen in front of you

 4     and you will see there an image of the document in your own language will

 5     come up onto the screen.

 6             MR. KAY:  May we have 2D00866 on the screen, please.

 7        Q.   It's on the right-hand screen there.

 8             MR. KAY:  And, I'm sorry, can we have the signature down at the

 9     bottom, please.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Serdarevic, do you recognise that as a witness statement you

11     gave to the Cermak Defence team on the 27th of April, 2010, but signed on

12     the 13th of May, 2010.  Do you recognise your signature on the first page

13     of that statement?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MR. KAY:  And if we could turn to the last page of the statement,

16     please, in your language.

17        Q.   And do you recognise your signature there on the last page

18     against the date of the 13th of May, 2010?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to read through this statement

21     carefully before coming to court today?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Is everything that is contained within that statement, to the

24     best of your knowledge and belief, true and correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 28935

 1        Q.   If I was to ask you in court today the same questions that made

 2     up the answers an information in that statement, would your answers today

 3     be the same as they were when you made the statement on the

 4     27th of April, 2010?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, in those circumstances, might this

 7     statement be made an exhibit.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  There are no objections.

 9             Madam Registrar, the number for the 92 ter statement of

10     Mr. Serdarevic would be ...

11             THE REGISTRAR:  This would be Exhibit D2053, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  D2053 is admitted into evidence.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, I will give a brief summary of the content

15     of this statement for the record.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Have you not given a similar summary for the

17     previous witness.

18             MR. KAY:  Out of practice, Your Honour, I think, is the answer to

19     that.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I don't think that we should bother this

21     witness with a summary of the statement of the previous witness but

22     perhaps at the end of the day we could -- it could be read.

23             MR. KAY:  Yes, Your Honour.  I had that in mind, and Mr. Mak

24     reminded me.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 28936

 1             MR. KAY:  Mr. Serdarevic made a statement to the Cermak --

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Have you explained to the witness what the purpose

 3     of the reading of the summary is?

 4             MR. KAY:  I will do, Your Honour, yes.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You have not done it yet?

 6             MR. KAY:  I will do it now.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please.

 8             MR. KAY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Serdarevic, I will give a brief summary of your statement to

10     the Court so that it goes on the record so that anyone listening is

11     aware, in brief terms, what's within your statement.  Do you understand?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. KAY:  Mr. Serdarevic was a member of the civilian protection

15     team in the MUP in August of 1995, working in the Zadar-Knin area.  And

16     in his statement he describes the nature of his work.  And his superior

17     was a Mr. Jelic who ran the Knin cemetery.

18             Within the statement, he describes that he was part of the team

19     that collected corpses on the terrain and transported them to the Knin

20     cemetery.  There was another team at the cemetery who carried out the

21     burial of the bodies.

22             There was also a further team with which he was not involved that

23     carried out animal sanitation; collecting livestock and carcasses.  He

24     describes that there were five members of the team for human sanitation,

25     that they had the use of a van by which they transported corpses in

Page 28937

 1     plastic bags.  And when they searched the field with crime police

 2     officers, the crime police officers took photographs, finger-prints, and

 3     wrote a description of the deceased.  And they worked on a daily basis

 4     with the crime police officers and also pyrotechnicians who also

 5     accompanied the teams in their field-work at this time.

 6             He described the routine in relation to Knin.  Someone would

 7     report to the police station, they would be given details of where dead

 8     bodies had been located, and they would go and collect with the crime

 9     police officers.  And it was the crime police officers who received that

10     information first.

11             He describes working with Mr. Bilobrk, as well as Mr. Vrticevic.

12             Location for the bodies came from a variety of people, not only

13     the police but also civilians, Croatian army members, Red Cross, and

14     civilian protection teams dealing with livestock, as well as

15     international representatives.

16             He would remove the mortal remains and bury them with an

17     identification number.  And he put the identification number on the

18     corpses and then put the body into the bags which was then put into the

19     van.

20             He describes that the sanitation of the terrain was the exclusive

21     responsibility of the MUP civilian protection employees and not the

22     responsibility of the Croatian army.

23             On the 27th of August, 1995, in that morning, he went to Knin,

24     first of all, and -- having departed from Zadar, and came to Knin between

25     9.00 and 9.30 in the morning.

Page 28938

 1             Mr. Bilobrk was the person who used to go to the police station

 2     for information and reports and tell him and his colleagues at a coffee

 3     bar where the location was and where they were to go on any day.

 4             On the 27th of August, he went to the village of Strmica first,

 5     where a single corpse was collected, which was in a decomposed state.

 6     From the village of Strmica, he returned to Knin cemetery where the

 7     corpse was left and then went to the village of Plavno.  He had

 8     previously been to the village of Plavno two or three times before; and

 9     on the particular day concerned, he was driving the van with four

10     employees of the civilian protection with him.

11             That was the first day that he saw Mr. Cermak, and he saw him in

12     the village of Plavno.  When he arrived at a bridge in the village of

13     Plavno, there was a group of people with parked cars.  They met on the

14     bridge where people were stopped.  And from the village of Plavno, they

15     went to the hamlet of Grubori to collect corpses that needed to be

16     collected there.

17             Mr. Vrticevic was driving the vehicle in front and led the way to

18     Grubori.  He couldn't get access to the hamlet with his van, and he

19     describes entering the hamlet of Grubori where he saw some destroyed

20     houses and he found five corpses.  And he gives details of what he saw on

21     that day.

22             The crime police officers who were present were the first ones

23     who approached each corpse and did their job.  He thinks they carried out

24     an on-site investigation, but he wasn't sure.  After they had done their

25     job, he and his colleagues began their work.  And they went from one

Page 28939

 1     corpse to another and put the identification numbers on the corpses and

 2     then placed the bags containing the corpse into the van.  And then, from

 3     there, the corpses were taken back to Knin.

 4             Your Honour, that's a brief summary of the evidence of the

 5     witness, Mr. Serdarevic.

 6             Thank you.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. KAY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Serdarevic, just a -- a few general questions arising from

10     your statement.

11             As a member of the MUP civilian protection, did you wear a -- a

12     uniform?

13        A.   Yes.  It was grey in colour.

14        Q.   Was that a -- a different coloured uniform from the uniform of

15     police officers?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Whilst you were engaged on the 27th of August, 1995, on this task

18     involving the bodies in Grubori, did you hear of anyone making a

19     suggestion that weapons should be planted next to the bodies of the

20     deceased to falsify a crime scene?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   On this particular day, you describe going from Knin to Strmica.

23     How long does the journey take from Knin to Strmica?

24        A.   Some 20 minutes.

25        Q.   Your statement records that a body was collected in Strmica on

Page 28940

 1     the 27th of August.  Can you recollect the state of that corpse on that

 2     day at Strmica?

 3        A.   It was in a state of quite advanced decomposition.

 4        Q.   How long did it take to deal with the corpse that was part of

 5     your tasks at Strmica?  How long were you in Strmica for?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I can't recall that.  It wasn't long.

 7        Q.   And did Mr. Vrticevic and Mr. Bilobrk also go to Strmica on that

 8     day?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Having been to Strmica and collecting the corpse there, what did

11     you do with that corpse after your visit to Strmica?

12        A.   We took it to the town cemetery in Knin where we buried it.

13        Q.   Was it you that did that burial?

14        A.   Not I.  The team working at the cemetery.

15        Q.   Did you stay with them while they buried it, or did you unload it

16     from -- from the van and hand it over to them to carry out their task?

17        A.   We merely turned the body over to them and proceeded on our way.

18        Q.   Can you recollect the length of the journey time from Knin

19     cemetery to Plavno village?

20        A.   I cannot.

21        Q.   Do you know how long it usually took you to go that -- that

22     distance?

23        A.   I never measured the kilometres involved.  I don't know.

24        Q.   And then from the cross-roads in -- or from the bridge in Plavno,

25     how far is it up to the hamlet of Grubori?  What sort of distance, or how

Page 28941

 1     long would it take?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't know exactly, but it's not that far.

 3        Q.   In Grubori hamlet, did you work with the criminal investigation

 4     officers, or did they do their tasks separately from you?

 5        A.   They did their tasks and told us that we could collect the

 6     corpses one by one and take them to the town cemetery.

 7        Q.   Did you have any part to play in the identification of the

 8     corpses?

 9        A.   I didn't understand the question.

10        Q.   We -- we know from records that the corpses were identified by

11     somebody, and we know your -- from your statement you have a -- a number.

12     Do you know -- did you have any part to play with any of the local people

13     concerning identification by name of the deceased?

14        A.   Yes.  I spoke to a woman.

15        Q.   And what -- what did that woman do?

16        A.   She gave us the names of the people.  Only that.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, that's all the questions that I need ask

19     the witness.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

21             Any questions by any other of the Defence teams?

22             If not, Mr. Hedaraly.  Are you ready to cross-examine the

23     witness?

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Serdarevic, you will now be cross-examined by

Page 28942

 1     Mr. Hedaraly.  Mr. Hedaraly is counsel for the Prosecution.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Hedaraly.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

 4        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Serdarevic.

 5        A.   Good morning.

 6        Q.   I have a few questions for you based on the statement that you

 7     gave and which is now admitted into evidence as D2053.

 8             Now, my -- and it's already on the screen.  If we can go to

 9     paragraph 12 of your statement first.

10             And before I ask you about this portion of your statement, your

11     superior was Engineer Jelic; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And do you know who Engineer Jelic was reporting to?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   You say in paragraph 12 that do you not know who Mr. Brkic was.

16     Does that mean you never dealt directly with Mr. Brkic?  Would that be a

17     fair assumption?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.  I never communicated with him.

19        Q.   And you don't know whether Mr. Brkic communicated with Mr. Jelic

20     or issued any orders to him or anything of that sort; correct?

21        A.   I don't know about that.

22        Q.   And you further state in paragraph 12 that as far as you knew --

23     and I quote:

24             "The Croatian army did not carry out the sanitation of the

25     terrain.  The sanitation, human, and animal were exclusively the

Page 28943

 1     responsibility of the MUP civilian protection, and we, the civilian

 2     protection employees, carried it out.  The sanitation was not the

 3     responsibility of the Croatian army, nor anyone else."

 4        A.   As far as I know, it was not.  That's right.

 5        Q.   Were you aware that there were mixed sanitation teams, including

 6     members of the HV, that were involved in human sanitation?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Did you know that there were orders issued by HV commanders

 9     regarding these mixed teams -- mixed sanitation teams?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Let me move on, then, to paragraph 15 of your statement where you

12     said that you can't give an exact number but you have buried around

13     200 bodies in the Knin cemetery.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   I don't know the exact number.

15        Q.   Well, in your statement, you said that:

16             "I think there were more than 200."

17             Is that a -- is that a fair approximation?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And to your knowledge, before burying any of these 200 corpses,

20     was there any examination or autopsies conducted on these bodies?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   There were autopsies conducted on these bodies before they were

23     buried?

24        A.   No.  They were not autopsied, but there was a criminal

25     investigation examination, a forensic examination.

Page 28944

 1        Q.   And when you referred to these criminal investigation

 2     examination, are you referring to the work that Mr. Bilobrk and

 3     Mr. Vrticevic were doing?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's what I meant by the criminal

 5     investigation examination.  That's what they did.

 6        Q.   So your understanding is that that was a criminal investigation

 7     examination; correct?  You don't know exactly what they were doing?

 8        A.   That's right.

 9        Q.   If we then move to paragraph 19 of your statement.  And it

10     relates to something you just talked about a few minutes ago at

11     transcript reference, draft reference 47, about one woman who gave you

12     details about the deceased, and she told you nothing else.

13             She wasn't -- that woman, she wasn't emotional, didn't tell you

14     anything about how her husband was killed or anything like that?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   So she simply told you -- let me repeat.

17             Was she very calm?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.  She engaged in a normal conversation

19     with me.

20        Q.   So although her husband has just been killed, she was very normal

21     and simply told you that this was her husband and didn't say anything

22     else to you as to what they had done to him or how he had died?

23             MR. KAY:  I don't think the husband was a feature of the

24     evidence, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly, we have to look exactly -- we have, as

Page 28945

 1     a matter of fact, two identifying persons.  Could you please assist the

 2     Chamber, perhaps, by - let me just see - we're talking about D2043, at

 3     least portions of it, I have, for number 537, I have a ...

 4             MR. HEDARALY:  Your Honour, it's not a matter of critical

 5     interest.  I can move on.  The point was simply that I wanted to confirm

 6     that his -- his statement, that nothing -- no more information was given

 7     than the identifying details of the deceased.  And that's really all I

 8     was interested in.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Then please move on.

10             MR. HEDARALY:

11        Q.   At paragraph 20 of your statement, I think it relates to

12     something we just talked about in one of my previous questions, when you

13     say:

14             "I think they carried out an on-site investigation, but I am not

15     sure."

16             That's a -- that's your understanding of what they were doing,

17     but you don't know, once again, specifically what they were doing that

18     day; correct?

19        A.   My understanding was that they were carrying out an on-site

20     investigation.

21        Q.   Do you know that both Mr. Bilobrk and Mr. Vrticevic testified

22     that they did not carry [sic] an on-site investigation in Grubori?

23        A.   I don't know that.

24        Q.   And they further stated that did not perform any on-site

25     investigations for any of the bodies that they had examined and

Page 28946

 1     collected?

 2        A.   Well I don't know exactly what an on-site investigation involves.

 3     They had a camera and a video camera with them.

 4        Q.   In paragraph 22 of your statement, you stated Mr. Cermak was in

 5     the hamlet of Grubori on that day.  Do you know -- do you remember what

 6     he was doing there while you were there?  Did you see him talk to anyone

 7     or do anything?

 8        A.   I didn't know him.  I didn't know who he was.  I didn't know that

 9     he was Cermak.

10        Q.   I didn't ask you if knew who he was.  You said he was in the

11     hamlet of Grubori, and I'm asking if you remember what he was doing on

12     that day in the hamlet of Grubori while you were there.

13        A.   I don't know.  I saw him seated.

14        Q.   In paragraph 23 of your statement you say:

15             "Two or three weeks after Operation Storm, we located the bodies

16     of the killed that were not the consequence of Operation Storm."

17             I'm a little confused because Grubori was two or three weeks

18     after Operation Storm.  So is that what you were referring to when you

19     said that they were not a consequence of Operation Storm?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   But then you go on to state that:

22             "In cases like that, the procedure would involve the coroner and

23     the crime police at the scene."

24             And then later on you say:

25             "If an investigative judge needed to be called to the scene where

Page 28947

 1     a murder was committed, I do not know whose duty it was to call him ..."

 2             To your knowledge, was there a coroner or an investigative judge

 3     in Grubori on the 27th of August?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   And when you say two or three weeks after Storm that you located

 6     bodies of these people in Grubori, that they were not the consequences of

 7     Operation Storm, does that mean that all the bodies you had collected

 8     before were killed as a result of Operation Storm?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   If -- if you didn't perform any -- yourself, if you're not

11     involved in any criminal investigation, how can you know whether they

12     were killed in -- as a consequence of Operation Storm?

13        A.   Well, one could see that the bodies had been in an advanced state

14     of decomposition.

15        Q.   So are you simply relating -- is it simply a time issue, that if

16     the bodies were collected shortly after Operation Storm, you considered

17     them to have been killed as a consequence of Operation Storm?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   But you, in fact, don't know in what circumstances these people

20     were killed whose bodies you were collecting; right?

21        A.   No, I don't know.

22             MR. HEDARALY:  Just a moment.

23                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

24             MR. HEDARALY:  Those are my questions.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 28948

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Serdarevic, I have a few questions for you.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You described that -- in your statement, that when

 5     you went to Grubori you were in your van, that Mr. Vrticevic was driving

 6     in front of you.  Did you just follow him, or did you know where you had

 7     to go?  I mean, who knew the route to Grubori?

 8        A.   Well, they drove ahead of us.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  And you just followed?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, coming closer to Grubori, did you notice

12     Mr. Vrticevic still driving his car, or would he board another vehicle?

13        A.   Mr. Vrticevic and Bilobrk were in the car together with another

14     gentleman I didn't know.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Were they in the car which was used by

16     Mr. Bilobrk and Mr. Vrticevic, or were they in the car that was used

17     that -- or that may have been used by that other person?

18        A.   I think the car may have belonged to that other person.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in your statement we read that you couldn't go

20     up all the way to Grubori.  What was approximately the distance where you

21     had to leave your van behind to the village or to the hamlet?

22        A.   I can't recall exactly.  I don't know.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Approximately?

24        A.   100, 200 metres.  I don't know.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, in your statement we read that you had to wait

Page 28949

 1     for the crime police to do its job first.  You also testified that you

 2     talked to a lady.  Now, was that after had you done the job, or was that

 3     before you did your part of the job, or somewhere in the middle of it?

 4        A.   Before we did our job.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  You -- your statement is that you had to wait for

 6     the crime police to do their job.  Was it when you were waiting for the

 7     crime police to do their job that you talked to this lady?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you close to the bodies at that moment?  Could

10     you see the bodies when you had a conversation with this lady?

11        A.   No.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Did she tell you who the deceased persons were?

13        A.   She gave us first and last names of individual persons.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, how did you know what name was linked to what

15     body?

16        A.   We didn't write the names down.  We merely placed identification

17     numbers on the bodies.  The names were only mentioned in the conversation

18     we had with the lady.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Let me try to understand.

20             You talked with the lady.  She gave the names.  You didn't do

21     anything with that.  You said you placed identification numbers on the

22     bodies.

23             When did you get these identification numbers?  From whom did you

24     get them and at what moment in time exactly?

25        A.   We carried them along whenever we went to work.

Page 28950

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But at one moment or another, the

 2     identification number has to be linked to the name of a person.

 3             Would you agree with that?

 4        A.   We weren't the ones making the link.  We were merely placing the

 5     numbers.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So you had the numbers with you.  And without

 7     knowing to whom or what the name of the person, deceased person was, you

 8     just did put that number on it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you happen to know who, then, linked the name to

11     that body?

12        A.   I don't know.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you fill in any forms?

14        A.   No.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, you said had you to wait for the crime police.

16     Did you have to wait until they have dealt with all of the bodies, or did

17     they call you after they had dealt with one of the bodies, then moved on

18     to the next one, and then would call you for the next one?  Or how did

19     this happen?

20        A.   One by one.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  One by one means once they're done with the one body

22     they would call you or they would fetch you?  How did they do that?  Did

23     they shout at you, Come over, the job is done, or ... what happened?

24        A.   They would call to us.  We weren't that far.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  How far were you?

Page 28951

 1        A.   As I told you, 100 or 200 metres roughly.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Do you remember who then called you?  Was it

 3     Mr. Vrticevic?  Was it Mr. Bilobrk?  Who did it?  Who said, Come over

 4     and ...

 5        A.   I don't know which of the two.  I don't know.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, then you went to that one body.  And did

 7     they wait until you were there, or did they go to the next one?  How did

 8     it happen?

 9        A.   They would wait for us to get to the body.  We would place the

10     number, bag the body, take it to the car, and they would proceed to the

11     next body.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Would they go with you to the -- to the van, to the

13     car, where you did put the body, or did they not follow you?

14        A.   They didn't follow us.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  So if I understood you well:  They did the job on

16     one body; they would call you; you would bag the body and put the number

17     in the bag; then you would bring that body to the van, they did not

18     accompany you.  And when you returned, had they started then already with

19     the next body?

20        A.   Yes.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And this is what happened with all of the bodies,

22     that once they were ready, they would call you; they were there when you

23     bagged the body; then you would bring it to the van, and they would move

24     on to the next one.

25             Is that how it happened?

Page 28952

 1        A.   I didn't understand you well in translation.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Then I will repeat to you.

 3             Whether that was the sequence that followed with all of the

 4     bodies:  One body -- well, let's say, inspected or whatever done with by

 5     the crime police; they would call you; you would bag the body in their

 6     presence.  Then you would bring the body to the van; they would move on

 7     to the next body; and then that same story repeated itself with the

 8     second body.  That is, once they were done, they would call you; you

 9     would come; you would bag the body; put the ID in it; bring it to the van

10     while the crime police would move on to the third body.

11             Is that how it went?

12        A.   Yes.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, there were others of which you did not know

14     exactly what they were doing there; is that correct?

15        A.   No.  There was nobody by the corpses.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but I mean in the area of the hamlet.

17        A.   Yes, yes.  There were some others.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Did you see any cameras?  Did you see any civilians

19     around?

20        A.   That was close to the bridge.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's where they stayed?

22        A.   Yes.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  They didn't follow you into the hamlet?

24        A.   No.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Did no one follow you in the hamlet, apart from the

Page 28953

 1     persons you had described, that is, Mr. Bilobrk, Mr. Vrticevic, and you

 2     and the members of your team; or were there some - whether civilian,

 3     whether in uniform - that followed you to the hamlet?

 4        A.   No.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Did they stay at the bridge?  Or at what distance

 6     were they -- did they stop from the hamlet?

 7        A.   They stayed by the bridge.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Which is at a distance of approximately how far?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  When you had left an ID number with the body in the

11     bag, did anyone write down a -- that number, or was it in any way -- was

12     anyone making -- filling any -- filling in any forms or ...

13        A.   Vrticevic and Bilobrk were writing down the numbers and so was

14     the team working in -- at the graveyard.  They would list all the numbers

15     and then they would place crosses.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  So when you put a number next to the body when

17     it was bagged, then they would write down that number?

18        A.   Yes.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  There is one line in your statement which was not

20     entirely clear to me.  I'll read it to you, and it deals with the

21     beginning of that 27th of August.

22             You said:

23             "On the 27th of August, 1995, just like every morning, we came to

24     Knin first.  I did not know from where Mr. Vrticevic was departing Zadar

25     because we telephoned each other and agreed to meet at the coffee bar

Page 28954

 1     where we always used to meet."

 2             Now, the reference to Zadar is a bit unclear to me.  Could you

 3     tell us exactly what you meant?

 4        A.   We travelled every day from Knin to Zadar and from Zadar to Knin.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  When did you travel to Zadar?

 6        A.   In the afternoon.  And in the morning, we would go to Knin.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And you were not sure whether Mr. Vrticevic

 8     left that morning from Zadar and travelled to Knin or whether he was

 9     already in Knin?  Is that how I have to understand that part of your

10     statement?

11        A.   He had also left from Zadar.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  But the line starts with:

13             "I did not know from where Mr. Vrticevic was departing Zadar."

14             Could you tell me exactly what -- what you didn't know?

15        A.   I don't know where exactly they were accommodated in Zadar, where

16     they were sleeping in Zadar, at which hotel.  That's what I don't know.

17             JUDGE ORIE:  Now it's clear to me what you didn't know.

18             Now, as far as time is concerned, you went to Strmica that

19     morning, you returned to Knin, left the body that was recovered from

20     Strmica at Knin cemetery, then you travelled to Grubori.

21             Do you remember at what time approximately you left for Grubori

22     from Knin?

23        A.   I cannot remember.  I don't know exactly.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  How much time did the whole of the trip to Grubori

25     and the -- the work you had to do there, how much time did that

Page 28955

 1     approximately take?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't know exactly because we didn't do anything

 3     else on that day.  We just returned to Zadar.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  You immediately returned from Grubori to Knin.  Do

 5     you remember how many bodies exactly you recovered in Grubori?

 6        A.   I think five.  And on the way, when we were leaving Plavno for

 7     Knin, we found another one in a brook, and we also recovered that body.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I was just -- you said it was the only thing

 9     we did, but you recovered another body on your way back to Knin.

10        A.   I considering -- I considered that the part of the same work.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I understand that.

12             Now, I'm trying to again to -- you said "it was the only thing we

13     did."

14             You travelled to Plavno, then Grubori.  How much time did the job

15     take for the five bodies, approximately?  Including the time, first crime

16     police, then your part of the job?

17        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps two or three hours, but I don't know

18     exactly.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.  I have no further questions for you.

20             Any further questions, Mr. Kay?

21             MR. KAY:  Nothing arises, Your Honour.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Hedaraly.

23             MR. HEDARALY:  Just one matter of clarification, if I may

24     Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 28956

 1                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Hedaraly:

 2        Q.   Mr. Serdarevic, you just answered the Presiding Judge's question:

 3     You said no one followed you from Plavno up to Grubori except for the

 4     members of your team and Mr. Vrticevic and Mr. Bilobrk.

 5             Earlier in your statement, we discussed what was in your

 6     statement about General Cermak being in Grubori and you saw him seated

 7     there, didn't know what he was doing.

 8             Do you know how Mr. Cermak got to Grubori, if -- if you said no

 9     one followed you?

10             I'm just trying to clear up the confusion.

11        A.   No.  Look, I don't know all of the Plavno village.  For me,

12     Plavno and Grubori are all one and the same.  Mr. Cermak was by the

13     bridge.

14        Q.   So in your statement at paragraph 19 and what we had explored

15     when I asked you questions earlier on where you said that he was -- that

16     you saw him in Grubori but did not know what he were [sic] doing, are you

17     now saying that he was not in the hamlet of Grubori?

18        A.   As far as I know, he wasn't.  He was by the bridge.  Whether that

19     is also a part of Grubori or not, that's something I don't know.

20        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Serdarevic, this concludes your evidence.  We'd

23     like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for having

24     answered all the questions that were put to you.  Although, as far as the

25     Chamber is concerned, very unlikely, there's a small chance that we'd

Page 28957

 1     need you within the next hour for perhaps two or three more questions.

 2     But it's very unlikely.

 3             Nevertheless, I would like to instruct you not to speak with

 4     anyone yet before we know for sure that we have no further questions for

 5     you, not to speak with anyone about your testimony.

 6             The Chamber would like to re-call, for a small moment, the

 7     previous witness.

 8             Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Serdarevic out of the

 9     courtroom.

10             If we don't see you back, Mr. Serdarevic, I already wish you a

11     safe return home and, again, thank you for having answered the questions.

12     Again, the chance that we further need you is minimal.  Thank you.

13             Mr. Usher, could you --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  And could you bring the other witness to the

16     courtroom.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18             MR. KEHOE:  Mr. President, I don't know what the -- how long the

19     Chamber is going to go.  It's just that it's break time, and --

20             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, I know that.  It would be -- it might be - if

21     it takes not more than ten minutes - that we would conclude for the day.

22     We will have a housekeeping session which can unfortunately, not be held

23     today because we -- there are a few new issues.  And we -- apart from

24     that, we need someone else to assist us on certain matters who is not in

25     court today.  So, unfortunately, we need to have a housekeeping session

Page 28958

 1     tomorrow.  It will not take very long.  So that's not to be done after

 2     the break.  Therefore, I'm wondering whether we should give it a chance.

 3             MR. KAY:  There's the summary of the statement to be read.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. KAY:  It will only take three minutes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that.  I'm also -- it's a bit of a -- of a

 7     gamble.  Either we finish in ten minutes from now and then adjourn for

 8     the day, or we'd take a break now of 25 minutes and then hopefully finish

 9     within ten or 15 minutes.

10             I'm also looking at the booth, whether there's any preference by

11     interpreters and transcribers how to proceed.

12             Could we give it a try?  I'm the guilty one.  If we do not finish

13     and have to take a break anyhow ... I don't see any gestures that I

14     should not proceed as suggested.

15                           [The witness takes the stand]

16                           WITNESS:  IVICA VRTICEVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Vrticevic, I have a few more questions for you.

19                           Further Questioned by the Court:

20             JUDGE ORIE:  But I first would like to remind you that the solemn

21     declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing

22     but the truth still binds you.  That's the solemn declaration that you've

23     given today.

24             One of the specific points I would like to re-visit is how the

25     sequence was between your work and the work of the civilian protection

Page 28959

 1     teams who bagged the bodies and took the bodies to the van.

 2             You told us earlier today that you first did the job,

 3     photographing, describing, et cetera, for all the bodies, and only then

 4     called civilian protection to remove the bodies.

 5             Is that well understood?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we heard another witness this morning who said,

 8     No, that's not how it went.  It was they did that job with one of the

 9     bodies; then they would call us; and then in their presence we would bag

10     the bodies.  We'd then remove the body, take the body to the van, and

11     they, meanwhile, then moved to the second body.  Which is a different

12     description of what happened compared to your description.

13             Could you tell us whether this, in any way, refreshes your memory

14     or ...

15        A.   I will repeat, once again, that, as far as I remember, we

16     processed the bodies there at the site and then we went back while the

17     civilian protection went up there and removed the bodies.  That is what I

18     remember, but let me stress that once again.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Saying that you dealt with all five bodies and

20     then, after that, the bodies were removed.  As far as your recollection

21     goes.

22        A.   Yes.  As far as I remember, that's how it went.  Maybe it didn't,

23     but I really remember that it should have happened that way.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, did you speak to any of the locals of that

25     hamlet?  Did you have conversations with them?  Or a conversation.

Page 28960

 1        A.   I really do not remember.  In some cases, the villagers were

 2     present; in other cases, they were not.  There were many happenings in

 3     the 20-odd days that I spent in the field.  So, specifically, I do not

 4     remember this.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you filled in the forms with the

 6     ID numbers and the names of the identified bodies.  Or -- did you do it,

 7     or did Mr. Bilobrk do it, or did you do it together?

 8        A.   I do not remember that specific case, whether it was me or not.

 9     But if these pieces of cardboard are there, I could see and then confirm

10     if that was filled in in my handwriting or not.  If it wasn't me, then it

11     was my colleague Jozo.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, we could -- are you talking about the lists,

13     or are you talking about the KT-10 forms, which are ...

14        A.   I mean the KT-10 forms.

15             MR. KAY:  D2043, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's -- could we have that on our screen.

17             MR. KAY:  For the record, D2043.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, that's ...

19             MR. KAY:  It's got a P on that transcript.

20             JUDGE ORIE:  I see that.

21             MR. KAY:  Yup.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  And that's a very long series.

23             Yes, could we move on.  We have, at this moment, 289 before us.

24     Could we move ten pages, expecting that we would then have 299.  No, even

25     one further.

Page 28961

 1             MR. KAY:  Page 11 --

 2             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... 300.  Yes, I do not

 3     know --

 4             MR. KAY: -- in the B/C/S.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  One further ...

 6             Is that your handwriting?  Can you see it?

 7        A.   Can I see it.  It is not my handwriting.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  Do you recognise whose handwriting it is?

 9        A.   I don't know.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Are you familiar with the handwriting of

11     Mr. Bilobrk?

12        A.   I can't be sure right now.

13             JUDGE ORIE:  No, but I'm first of all asking whether you're

14     familiar with that.  And then the next question would be whether you

15     recognise this as his handwriting.

16        A.   I can only say that this is not my handwriting.  That's not the

17     way I write.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that.

19             Now, last question:  When you filled in the forms, how did you

20     link the ID number to a name?

21        A.   If we had no information, that is, if we didn't know the

22     identity, then we would assign the following number, the ID number.  If

23     we had information on identity, we would also give a number and then fill

24     in the form with the -- the first name, last name, and all other

25     information we could gather in the field.

Page 28962

 1             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, here, apparently, if you look on the

 2     screen, which is one of the Grubori bodies, apparently that person was

 3     identified.  But you have no recollection as to where that information

 4     came from, who the body was?

 5        A.   That is correct.  I don't remember that.

 6             JUDGE ORIE:  Were you present when the ID numbers were placed

 7     next to the bodies when they were bagged?

 8        A.   I don't remember.  But our job was always the following:  We

 9     would put the number on the body and then take a photo so that you could

10     see both the face or the upper part of the body and the number on the

11     photo.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  Now, we heard evidence which said that once you had

13     done your job, that then the sanitation people would come in, put a

14     number next to the body, and then -- when it was bagged, and that it

15     would then be taken by them and put into the van.  Which is, again, a

16     different sequence of -- different to the sequence you describe.

17        A.   Your Honour, I have to say it once again.  The numbers would go

18     with bags.  Now, I can't really remember all those things.  I simply

19     can't remember.  Can you do whatever you want, but I don't remember.

20     Whether he put those numbers or I put those numbers, I can only say that

21     the numbers were put sequentially, that they were also photographed, all

22     that, and then everything has handed over back in Zadar.  That's all.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So you say that when you photographed the bodies the

24     numbers were there, and you do not remember exactly who put the numbers

25     next to the bodies?  Did you do it, or did the civilian protection

Page 28963

 1     sanitation team put the numbers?

 2        A.   I don't know anymore.  Sometimes we did it, sometimes the

 3     civilian protection.  As far as I can remember, they would also put the

 4     number on the bag itself, and that's how it went to the cemetery.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Have the questions of the Bench raised any further

 8     matters?

 9             MR. KAY:  No, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  Then -- Mr. Hedaraly.

11             MR. HEDARALY:  I don't think it has to be done with the witness,

12     Your Honour, but we have the photographs on the record with the tag on

13     it, so if the Court wanted exhibit numbers --

14             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... no, it's -- I'm aware of

15     that.  It's --

16             Mr. Vrticevic, this then concludes your testimony in this court.

17     We would like to thank you very much for coming a long way to The Hague

18     and to -- for having answered all the questions put to you by the parties

19     and by the Bench.

20             You are excused.  If you wish, you can speak with others again

21     about your testimony.

22             And, Madam Registrar, could you inform the VWS that the other

23     witness ... that the other witness is informed that he is -- not only

24     that he is excused, but also free to speak with whomever he wants about

25     whatever he wants to talk about.

Page 28964

 1             Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the

 2     courtroom.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Kay, we have eight minutes left on the tape.  I

 6     need three.

 7             MR. KAY:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I'll just read a brief summary

 8     now of the 92 ter statement of Ivica Vrticevic, who has given evidence

 9     this morning.

10             He was a member of the Split-Dalmatia Police Administration in

11     1995, provided as assistance to the Zadar-Knin Police Administration to

12     carry out tasks of crime scene technician.  And he was working on the

13     27th of August, 1995, in Knin with Officer Bilobrk, and the two of them,

14     that day, went on the following mission.  Having been shown a document

15     dated the Knin police log, Exhibit D57, with entries there at one 193 and

16     198, detailing that the sanitation in the village of Strmica and in the

17     hamlet of Grubori were ordered at 11.00 on the 27th of August, he said he

18     couldn't be in two places at the same time.  But he then considered

19     documents that were written at the time, Exhibit D2042, and

20     Exhibit D2043, KTO-10 forms, and as a result of looking at those

21     documents, was able to say that on that day, that he travelled to Strmica

22     and then on to the village of Plavno with officers of the civil

23     protection, as well as Mr. Bilobrk, and he remembered that he saw that

24     day in person, for the first time, Mr. Cermak.  And he described him

25     being near the turn for a hamlet of Grubori at the end of an asphalt road

Page 28965

 1     and where a dirty road, as it was described, was situated.

 2             And he described going into the village of Grubori and the

 3     identification of bodies that were considered by him and his colleague on

 4     that day and the procedures that were undertaken.

 5             And, Your Honour, that is a brief summary of his 92 ter

 6     statement, Exhibit D2052.

 7             JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Kay.

 8             The Chamber received a table which is a response to its

 9     invitation to -- to inform us where the term "postave" is used, rather

10     than "ostave."  Everything in that submission is in evidence, so,

11     therefore, I think that it just assists the Chamber in finding, in the

12     original language, the language which was used.

13             The only thing is that apparently in P2732 there is a mistake in

14     the translation.  Has the new, correct translation already been uploaded?

15     Because that's something that should then be done by the parties

16     apparently agree [sic].

17             MR. HEDARALY:  No, Your Honour, but we can -- we have reached

18     agreement, so we can do it.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

20             MR. HEDARALY:  Hope -- we'll try to do it by tomorrow.  We don't

21     know how much -- how our ability is with the translation people, but

22     we'll try to do it by tomorrow.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  So then the Chamber does not -- is not asking for

24     this aide-memoire to be -- to be filed, but, at the same time, would like

25     to have the accurate translation into evidence, and then we're talking

Page 28966

 1     about P2732.

 2             Then one last question:  Is there any party which intends to seek

 3     leave to present any further evidence?  I'm especially looking at the

 4     Markac Defence, which has -- because you have not expressed yourself on

 5     the matter, as far as I remember.

 6             MR. MIKULICIC:  Your Honour, there is one pending questions about

 7     one document that we intended to use -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] ... yes, yes, but I mean

 9     calling witnesses.

10             MR. MIKULICIC:  No, no, no, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Misetic.

12             MR. MISETIC:  Mr. President, the Gotovina Defence this morning

13     filed an appeal on the ECMM log-book, and for that reason we preserve our

14     position and which to have the evidence remain open until that issue is

15     resolved because --

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  But up till this moment you have no specific

17     wish, We wish to call Witness A, B, or C?

18             MR. MISETIC:  That is correct.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  That's fine.  Then we'll conclude for the day, and

20     we will deal with these other matters after we also have read the -- your

21     appeal, Mr. Misetic, and deal with the procedural matters tomorrow.

22             We resume and -- on tomorrow -- let me just -- since they changed

23     one of these programs, there's always difficulties in finding the --

24             MR. HEDARALY:  It's Courtroom III tomorrow, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  It's Courtroom III.  Thank you, Mr. Hedaraly.

Page 28967

 1             So we'll resume tomorrow, Friday, the 11th of June in --

 2             MR. KAY:  Your Honour, sorry.  There is one administrative matter

 3     and that is whether the accused are needed for the hearing tomorrow.

 4             JUDGE ORIE:  Is usually, for housekeeping sessions --

 5             MR. KAY:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE ORIE: -- if the accused prefer not to be present, it's

 7     almost -- has become a routine that the Chamber does not insist on their

 8     presence and that the Chamber accepts their absence.

 9             MR. KAY:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE ORIE:  We stand adjourned.

11                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.59 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 11th day

13                           of June, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.