1 Thursday, 13 September 2012
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good afternoon to everybody in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon,
10 Your Honour. This is case number IT-04-75-PT, the Prosecutor versus
11 Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 Can we have the appearances, please, starting with the
15 MR. STRINGER: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Greetings to counsel
16 and everyone else. Doug Stringer appearing for the Prosecution with
17 Sarah Clanton and our case manager Thomas Laugel.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Zivanovic.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good afternoon, Your Honour. For
21 Mr. Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, lead counsel; Christopher Gosnell,
22 co-counsel; and Mr. Toma Fila, legal consultant. Thank you.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
24 Mr. Hadzic, can you follow the proceedings in a language you can
1 THE ACCUSED: Yes.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 This is the fourth Status Conference in this case. We are
4 approaching the start of the trial, and I can only express the hope that
5 the parties will continue to act with the same spirit of co-operation
6 that has been displayed thus far.
7 Mr. Hadzic, at the end of this conference I will give you the
8 opportunity to raise any issue with regard to your mental and physical
9 health or your conditions while detained.
10 The Chamber has received the Prosecution's motion for judicial
11 notice of adjudicated facts and documents. It has received a corrigendum
12 to the Prosecution's motion and the supplemental motion. All these
13 motions were filed on 17, 18, and 31st of July respectively. We also
14 received the Defence response filed on the 31st of July and the
15 Prosecution's reply filed on the 6th of August. The Chamber's decision
16 on the Prosecution's motion for judicial notice and adjudicated facts --
17 on adjudicated facts and documents will be issued in due course.
18 We also noted the filings of the Prosecution's omnibus motion for
19 admission of evidence pursuant to article -- Rule 92 bis, the
20 Prosecution's omnibus motion for admission of evidence pursuant to Rule
21 92 quater, and the Prosecution's motion for admission of the evidence of
22 Herbert Okun pursuant to 92 quater, and the Prosecution's motion for
23 admission of the evidence of Milan Babic pursuant to Rule 92 quater, all
24 filed on the 21st of August. Defence responses to all of these motions
25 have been filed as well, and a decision on these Rule 92 bis and Rule 92
1 quater motions will be issued in due course.
2 Next I want to raise three issues with the parties:
3 Translations, guide-lines on the management of evidence, and 92 quater
4 material. First of all, translations.
5 Mr. Stringer, the Chamber is expecting that the translation of
6 documents on the Rule 65 ter list would be uploaded to e-court by the
7 26th of June. The date, disclosure of witness statements, transcripts,
8 and exhibits was mandated by the Chamber's Pre-Trial work plan of the 16
9 December 2011. The Chamber learned from your letter of 7 September that
10 some 670 documents are currently missing English translation and 530
11 documents are missing B/C/S translations. We took notice of the
12 Prosecution's efforts to establish a work-plan with CLSS for translation
13 of the remaining documents. Are you, Mr. Stringer, in a position to give
14 any further updates on this matter now?
15 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour. And again, good afternoon. In
16 respect of translations, I think it's -- if it was the Chamber's
17 expectation that every document and item that is contained on the 65 ter
18 list will have been translated into the various language by the date of
19 filing of the list or shortly thereafter, I can assure the Chamber that
20 that was -- the Prosecution was not aware of that.
21 The practice that we've been following in respect of translations
22 is I think the established practice at the Tribunal. If I can say,
23 it's -- the inclusion of any given item on a 65 ter list does not ensure
24 or mean necessarily that that item will, in fact, be tendered into the
25 evidence during the Prosecution case. We do not automatically request
1 translation of every item that is included on the 65 ter list because
2 it's inefficient and wasteful to translate documents that it's not clear
3 would be tendered into evidence or used at trial. Many of those
4 documents might be referred to during the cross-examination phase of the
5 Defence case. In any event, it's not the practice and it was never our
6 understanding that we would be required to do that, and indeed it's
7 impossible to do that. The translations are handled within the Registry
8 by the CLSS. The Prosecution cannot dictate the quantities and the
9 time-frames with which they produce translations.
10 What we've been doing throughout our trial preparation - and
11 again I think this is in accordance with the accepted practice - is as we
12 compile our exhibit list and as we prepare we select documents and give a
13 priority to them, and the priorities are important in enabling us to
14 identify documents, send those to CLSS in smaller batches, so that CLSS
15 can then take them and translate them for us within their own resource
16 means. Throughout the pre-trial phase, the Hadzic case is - if I can put
17 it this way - we've been on the low end of the totem pole, I think,
18 within the CLSS world. They generally give priority to cases that are
19 already in trial. So we've been competing with two very large cases as
20 Your Honour knows, the Karadzic and the Mladic case.
21 In our recent discussion with CLSS, they informed us that now as
22 we move into the trial phase of Hadzic, we will enjoy equal priority with
23 the translations that are happening in those other cases. But it
24 certainly is not going to be any better than that. I think in the
25 Karadzic case now there's a lot of work going into translation of Defence
1 exhibits. And so this is all managed within CLSS.
2 We began sending our document requests over to CLSS very early
3 this year - at the beginning of this year - as we began to assemble the
4 documentation, and we've been doing it steadily since then, and we
5 continue to do that, which is why, of course, we do have a very large
6 majority -- substantial majority of the documentation already translated,
7 but not all of it. I should emphasize that the numbers that Your Honour
8 has on what's not translated are large. It might be that that's not such
9 a useful statistic because, again, it could quite well turn out that any
10 given number of those documents are never tendered into evidence during
11 the Prosecution case, and we're not going to ask CLSS to translate
12 documents that are not clearly close enough or necessary for us to tender
13 and to use during the trial proceedings.
14 The general Registry has a policy on translation. It's all
15 published. We've been in communication with them about that. I think
16 the general policy provides for the translation at the rate of about a
17 hundred pages a month. We might be able to get more from them, but then
18 again that's out of my realm to control. What we will ensure, what I can
19 ensure, is that the Prosecution will continue to select and to prioritise
20 the documents as we need them to enable us to proceed through the trial
21 with documents that have been translated.
22 If I could just make a couple of additional remarks, Your Honour,
23 it goes beyond the numbers you've just mentioned but it may be useful to
24 know. We are -- one of the big projects has been completion of the
25 translation of the voluminous proof of death documentation that we have
1 in this case. When this accused was apprehended a year and a few months
2 ago, we began the process of updating, if you will, going back to Croatia
3 to update and to obtain the updated information on death certificates,
4 autopsy, and exhumation reports, and that's all been received. The
5 Chamber knows it's referred to in the expert reports that we have. But a
6 lot of it needed to go from B/C/S into English and that's been a big job
7 for CLSS. We expected and hoped it would be done by the end of this.
8 The dead-line slid a little bit until October 10th. It now looks like
9 it's not going to be -- well, I can tell you for sure because they told
10 me yesterday, it won't be before the beginning of the trial. But I think
11 it's fair to say that all of the proof of death material will have been
12 translated in its entirety quite soon after the trial begins.
13 If I could ask Your Honour one question. We discussed this with
14 CLSS as well and I think if we could get guidance from the Chamber on
15 this, it would possibly advance things very quickly on one side of our
16 translation world. As Your Honour knows, we have a significant number of
17 English to B/C/S document translation that has to occur. A lot of this
18 relates to the newer Rule 70 materials that have come in from a variety
19 of sources. We have in the past, going back a long time ago to sort of
20 some of the earlier trials here, we could place boxes around the parts of
21 a number of these reports that we would need translated.
22 And if I can use an example, and this won't breach any
23 confidentiality, the documents of the UNPROFOR, the blue helmets, the
24 peacekeepers of the UN who came into these areas in the spring of 1992,
25 they began writing reports. And actually these reports are part of a
1 chain that could relate to events taking place, not only in Croatia, not
2 only in the relevant places for this case but in other places, other
3 parts of Croatia or even down in Sarajevo, other parts of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's not relevant for this case. We can place a box
5 around what is relevant for this case and have that part translated into
6 B/C/S, would save a lot of time. CLSS, we've consulted with them,
7 they're certainly agreeable. I think they would welcome that. The
8 Prosecution can easily work that way as well. I think by a general rule
9 we would probably go for translation of events or of the parts related to
10 Croatia. We would let go of translating parts related -- of these
11 reports that relate to other places that are outside the scope of the
12 indictment. So that's one way to speed along translation of the English
13 to B/C/S, and we wanted to ask the Chamber's guidance on that because
14 that would really advance things for us. But those are my, I hope not,
15 too many words in response, but that's the lay of the land, if you will,
16 Your Honour, on the translations.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer.
18 Mr. Zivanovic, do you have a position on this last item?
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, I have, Your Honour. It is our position
20 that the Prosecution should submit the translation of both the English
21 and B/C/S documents from its Rule 65 ter list. As to the documents not
22 related to Croatia specifically, we agree that this part of documents
23 should be marked and not translated in B/C/S, UN documents, UNPROFOR
24 documents mentioned in last part of Mr. Stringer's words.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, I hear you say in general two
3 different things. One is we get translation within the capacity of
4 possibilities of CLSS and it doesn't happen overnight. The other is
5 certain documents we will not translate. Now, my question is a little
6 bit: How do we know where we are -- when -- how can we -- having in mind
7 that there is a number of documents that you will not translate, how do
8 we know when there is a problem for you for the translation? When do we
9 know that we get -- we are creating a back-log? Because we don't know
10 what you will translate and what you intend to translate and what you
11 intend not to translate.
12 MR. STRINGER: If Your Honour sees the document being used in the
13 courtroom during the trial, it's because we have a translation. We're
14 not proposing to work only with documents in one language. It's for us
15 and it's quite -- we're very well aware of the implications for our case,
16 but we have to select the documents, we have to make sure they're
17 translated in time, then to use when the witness comes. If they're not
18 translated by the time the witness comes, if it's not translated by the
19 time we want to use it in court, we can't use it in court, Your Honour
20 won't see it. So this is internal. That is -- if I can say, the
21 limitation, that's the -- certainly the procedure that is being used
22 throughout the Tribunal. That's the great vetting process. If the
23 translation doesn't exist, it's -- you'll never see it, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. On the specific question you asked to
25 us. We -- I'll have to think about it and you'll be notified whatever we
1 decide. Thank you.
2 The second issue is the one regarding the guide-lines on the
3 management of evidence. Draft guide-lines were set out at the Rule
4 65 ter Conference of 14 December 2011. The parties are aware of the fact
5 that the Chamber welcomes submissions on the draft guide-lines for the
6 management of evidence as long as they are filed by 14 September, which
7 means tomorrow. The Chamber intends to file an order on the guide-lines
8 on the admission and presentation of evidence before the start of the
10 The third issue is - and this is a little bit related with the
11 first one - death certificates and other 94 [sic] quater material. I
12 would like to point to the Prosecution's attention, without starting a
13 discussion at this point in time, that most of the supporting documents
14 for the unavailability of 92 quater witnesses are not available in
15 English translations. It has also been brought to our attention that the
16 documents for an important part of the 92 quater witnesses, statements,
17 and transcripts are not yet made available or accessible to the Chamber
18 in e-court.
19 The Trial Chamber's legal support team will contact the OTP in
20 order to solve the problem as diligently as possible.
21 At this point in time, I would like to ask Mr. Hadzic whether
22 there are any issues in relation to this case that he would like to raise
23 today. This may include, Mr. Hadzic, issues regarding your mental or
24 physical condition while in detention and be assured that we can go into
25 private session for these purposes if you wish to do so. Is there
1 anything you would like to bring to our attention?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: I didn't get translation.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are certain problems, but we
5 need to go into private session.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: May we go into private session, Mr. Registrar.
7 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour. Thank
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 Are there any other matters the parties wish to raise?
1 MR. STRINGER: No, Your Honour.
2 MR. GOSNELL: Your Honour, yes, there is one small matter that we
3 would like to raise. Unfortunately, we need to go back into closed
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar --
6 MR. GOSNELL: Excuse me, private session.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- can we go into private session, please.
8 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honour. Thank
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
2 I note that a Pre-Trial Conference will be held on Monday, 15 of
3 October, 2012. The Trial Chamber will commence -- the trial, sorry, will
4 commence on Tuesday, the 16th of October. The trial shall commence with
5 the opening statement of the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 84. The
6 Defence may then make an opening statement or it may elect to make its
7 statement after the conclusion of the Prosecution's presentation of
8 evidence and before the presentation of evidence of the Defence. The
9 accused may make an unsworn statement pursuant to Rule 84 bis, and
10 immediately following the opening statements the Prosecution shall call
11 its first witness. I instruct the parties to be prepared at the
12 Pre-Trial Conference on 15 October to inform the Trial Chamber whether
13 they intend to make any Rule 84 and Rule 84 bis statements at the
14 commencement of the trial on 16 October.
15 This conference -- yes, Mr. Stringer.
16 MR. STRINGER: I apologise. Your Honour, for purposes of
17 scheduling witnesses, it would be of assistance to the Prosecution if we
18 could learn in advance whether the Defence intends to make opening
19 statements or whether the accused would make a statement because we will
20 have -- in terms of the travel and the logistics, it would be helpful to
21 know in advance if the Defence is able to decide.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, can you give any kind of
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We'll not make opening
25 statement on 16 October. We'll do it on the start of Defence case.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: And for Mr. Hadzic himself?
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I cannot say that right now. We did not have a
3 consultation about this matter.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
5 Is that helpful, Mr. Stringer?
6 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
8 This Status Conference is adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the Status Conference
10 adjourned at 3.01 p.m.