1 Wednesday, 17 October 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
8 Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everybody in and around the
10 courtroom. May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
12 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.
13 Lisa Biersay, on behalf of the Prosecution, and I'm accompanied by
14 Muireann Dennehy, as well as our Case Manager, Sebastiaan van Hooydonk,
15 and our intern as well.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 For the Defence, please.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of
19 Mr. Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. If there's nothing else to be taken
21 care of -- is there anything, Ms. Biersay?
22 MS. BIERSAY: Briefly, Your Honour.
23 Yesterday, I addressed the Court about tendering -- seeking to
24 admit 65 ter number 6324 to the exhibit list, and I had indicated that I
25 would consult with Defence counsel. I did consult with Defence counsel,
1 and I fully anticipated trying to convince them of my position, and, in
2 fact, I adopted their position, and we will not be seeking to add it with
3 respect to this witness. It will still stay part of the main motion, but
4 we will not seek to admit it with this -- with this witness, but we will
5 seek another witness through whom to address the video.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Then the witness may be brought in.
7 MS. BIERSAY: While we wait for the witness to be brought in,
8 I'll advise the Court and Defence that I anticipate playing 65 ter number
9 6200.1, which is a video-clip that is about 1 minute and 15 seconds or
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, when referring to exhibit numbers or
12 65 ter numbers, could you also mention the tab number, please.
13 MS. BIERSAY: [Overlapping speakers] ... Your Honour. This one is
14 a video, and it's under your tab number 21.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to you, Mr. Antunovic. I remind --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: I remind you that you're still under oath.
20 WITNESS: ZLATKO ANTUNOVIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay.
23 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examination by Ms. Biersay: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Antunovic.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Yesterday, you described being confined to your house for six to
3 seven days after the attack on the Dalj police station. Do you remember
5 A. I do.
6 Q. When you were attending school in Dalj, did you know where the
7 police station was?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And how far from your school was it?
10 A. Around a hundred metres.
11 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me, Your Honours. I'm having a problem with
12 the sound.
13 Q. Mr. Antunovic, could you say your last name for me, please, just
14 so I can test the --
15 MS. BIERSAY: Or if the interpreters can say --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us? Can the Prosecutor hear us?
17 MS. BIERSAY: Yes, now I can. Thank you very much.
18 Q. So if we could just go back again.
19 How far was the police station from your school when you were
20 attending school in Dalj?
21 A. Around a hundred metres.
22 Q. And in what direction in relation to your school was it?
23 A. Westward, in the direction of the road to Borovo.
24 Q. Are you familiar with the Zadruga building in Dalj?
25 A. Yes. It was and it still stands next to the school playground.
1 Q. Next to your school, was there also a church?
2 A. Yes. Yes. Right in front of the school.
3 Q. And what kind of church was it?
4 A. Orthodox.
5 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, I'll ask that 65 ter number 6200.1 be
6 played. And for the Chamber's information, it is an extract of 6200, and
7 it is a video of television footage, and we received this from the
8 Humanitarian Law Centre in Belgrade, and the approximate date we were
9 given was between the 1st and 3rd of August, 1991. And the time codes
10 that we will play will be 00:02:07 to 00:03:24, and we will be playing it
11 and tendering it without the sound. It's merely for the moving images,
12 for the witness to identify.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MS. BIERSAY: Could we pause the video, please. If we could just
15 go back a few seconds.
16 Q. Do you -- we've now stopped the video at 00:03:05. Do you
17 recognise any structure in that frame?
18 A. Yes, the Orthodox church.
19 MS. BIERSAY: We can continue playing.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MS. BIERSAY: And if we could continue playing, please.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MS. BIERSAY:
24 Q. Mr. Antunovic, did you recognise any other buildings other than
25 the -- the church in that video?
1 A. Yes. I recognised the police station.
2 Q. And was the police station in the condition that you knew it to
3 be in when you were going to school?
4 A. No, it wasn't.
5 Q. How --
6 A. It was destroyed here.
7 Q. And could you describe what you saw on the video as being the
8 destruction to the -- to the police station.
9 A. Well, I could see smashed windows, bullet-holes. The interior
10 was demolished as well. That's it.
11 MS. BIERSAY: And if we could now go to the video screen, and
12 we're at 00:02:52.
13 Q. Is that the building that you're describing as the destroyed Dalj
14 police station?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. BIERSAY: At this time, we'd move for the extract 65 ter
17 number 6200.1.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, admitted and marked, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 6200.1 shall be
20 assigned Exhibit Number P3. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 MS. BIERSAY: And while we're here, Your Honour, I would like to
23 move for the admission of the second set of annotations that were made to
24 the hand-drawn map from yesterday. We left with some annotations on the
25 screen at the end of the day, and so I'd move for the admission of the
1 second set of annotations to that as well.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, Exhibit P1 marked by the witness
4 yesterday in court for the second time shall be assigned Exhibit
5 Number P4. Thank you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 MS. BIERSAY:
8 Q. Mr. Antunovic, yesterday you started to describe how you went
9 looking for your brother after you emerged from your house after being
10 there for six to seven days. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber
11 what you did after you discovered that he was not at his house?
12 A. When I saw that my brother wasn't there, or his family, I headed
13 towards Bogaljevci to find my relatives, my aunt and uncle.
14 Q. And how did you travel?
15 A. By bike.
16 Q. And where did you go first?
17 A. I took an unpaved road in the direction of Pustara where the
18 building of Vodovod was nearby and I was stopped there by soldiers of the
20 Q. What happened next?
21 A. They asked me where I was headed. I explained to them that I was
22 looking to find my family. An officer appeared. I don't know who he
23 belonged to. And he let me through without any problems.
24 Q. And where did you go to next?
25 A. I set out toward Bogaljevci. I was again stopped by a couple of
1 soldiers, asking about where I was headed. I explained to them. Then
2 they asked me whether there was any gunfire in Dalj, whether there was
3 any shooting there. I said that I didn't know, and they let me proceed
4 on my journey.
5 Q. Where did you go next?
6 A. I reached Bogaljevci, and close to my uncle's house, which was
7 empty because they had gone, a civilian wielding a rifle by the name of
8 Sinisa, he was an acquaintance of Bogaljevci, appeared and stopped me
10 Q. What is Sinisa's full name, if you know it.
11 A. Glodic, G.
12 Q. And he was an acquaintance of whom?
13 A. He was my acquaintance. He was older than me, but I knew him
14 very well. He used to live across from my uncle's house.
15 Q. And which uncle?
16 A. That's my mother's brother, Josip Suler.
17 Q. What ethnicity, if you know, was Sinisa Glodic?
18 A. Serb.
19 Q. And what did he do regarding you?
20 A. He told me that I should call on his cousin, Stevo Glodic, who
21 was a couple of houses down the street from where he stopped me. I went
22 there. He told me that I was to go to Dalj to be interrogated, that I
23 should get into the van and that nothing -- no harm would come to me,
24 that he would make sure that nothing is done to me.
25 Q. You said that Sinisa Glodic was wielding a rifle. What do you
1 mean, wielding a rifle? What was he doing with it?
2 A. Well, he pointed it at me. I got off my bicycle, and I told
3 me -- and I did, just as he had ordered me to.
4 Q. How did it feel to have someone you knew pointing a rifle at you?
5 A. It is not a pleasant feeling. I was frightened, of course, as
6 any person would, I believe.
7 Q. You were taken to a van, a nearby van, you said. What kind of
8 van was it?
9 A. It's just an ordinary van that was used to transport bread from a
10 bakery. It may have even belonged to a bakery, but I don't recall seeing
11 any signs on it.
12 Q. And where were you taken?
13 A. I was taken to Dalj, near the culture hall, which is by the
14 marketplace in Dalj.
15 Q. And how far is this culture hall from the school that you used to
17 A. Some 150 metres. Not more, I don't think.
18 Q. And how far was it from the Orthodox church that you pointed out
19 in the video?
20 A. From the hall? Two hundred and fifty, thereabouts.
21 Q. And normally what was that centre used for?
22 A. There was a large conference hall for wedding parties and similar
23 celebrations, and there was a room upstairs as well which -- I don't know
24 which purpose it served before the event, that is.
25 Q. Now, over the weekend, we looked at some photographs of the --
1 the Dom. Do you recall that?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Now, for some procedural reasons that have nothing to do with
4 you, Mr. Antunovic, we won't be able to use those photographs in the
5 courtroom, but I'd like you to describe to the Trial Chamber as best you
6 can, to paint a picture of this -- of this hall.
7 So if you're facing the building, could you describe to the
8 Trial Chamber what the building looks like.
9 A. It's a building of some 30 metres, perhaps. I'm not sure. There
10 are rooms upstairs as well. In the back is the room for various
11 celebrations, including wedding parties, and further back were the rooms
12 where the prison that I was in later was located.
13 Q. Now, if you're facing the building, the Dom, how many storeys is
15 A. There's the first floor only.
16 Q. And when you're standing and facing the building, is there a
17 window anywhere on the building, to the right side?
18 A. Yes, there is a window upstairs on one of the sides. That's
19 where the interrogation room was.
20 Q. So could you describe for the Trial Chamber what happened after
21 you were taken out of the van and where you were taken.
22 A. I don't remember who it was who took me upstairs. At any rate, I
23 was taken to the interrogation room. There was Zeljko Cizmic there. I
24 learned later that he was the policeman in charge there. He interrogated
25 me about the HDZ, about the whereabouts of my brother, about how many
1 Croats there were in Erdut. That was roughly it.
2 Q. How was he dressed at the time?
3 A. He was in civilian clothes.
4 Q. How did you know his name?
5 A. I didn't know his name at the time. I learnt it later in prison.
6 Q. After you were asked these questions, what happened to you?
7 A. I didn't know the answers, because I didn't really move about the
8 village in the days previously. I didn't know how many Croats had stayed
9 behind. I wasn't able to tell much about the HDZ because I didn't attend
10 any meetings or rallies.
11 As for my brother, I knew that he was not at home, but I didn't
12 know where exactly he had gone to.
13 Q. After you gave these answers, what happened?
14 A. A while later, they took me downstairs to the cell, to that
15 prison. As I got in, I observed that there were five or six people
16 there, Croats. I knew them all, but I only recall the family name of one
17 of the men, Fabijancic. He was black and blue, and his lips had been
18 hurt. At any rate, you could tell that he had been injured.
19 Q. And did you know Fabijancic?
20 A. He also used to work for the IPK, the Erdut vineyards.
21 Q. What gender were these -- you said five or six people. Were they
22 men, women?
23 A. They were all men; 35, 40, 50 years old. At any rate, older than
25 Q. Do you remember the names of any other people that you saw there?
1 A. Yes. In the course of the day when I was locked up, a father and
2 son by the name of -- last name Susic were brought in. I can't recall
3 their first names. I only know that the orders were given to the son to
4 slap his father about in our presence, for reasons unknown to me.
5 Q. And who ordered the son to slap his father?
6 A. I don't remember exactly. It was one of those individuals there.
7 There were a lot of them in civilian clothes. Some were in uniform, and
8 one of them gave the order. I can't give you the name.
9 Q. And when you say "they," are you talking about the prisoners, or
10 are you talking about people who were controlling the prisoners?
11 A. No. The people who were in power, yes; or guards, if you will.
12 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber a little bit about the
13 cell. How big was it, for example?
14 A. It was a small room, 3 by 4, 3 by 5 metres. I think it used to
15 be a pantry of sorts. I'm not sure.
16 Q. Was there anything on the ground?
17 A. Yes, one or two mattresses and a couple of chairs.
18 Q. Was there a door?
19 A. There was no door, only bars which were locked with a padlock.
20 Q. At some point were you taken out of the cell?
21 A. Yes. They would take us out of the cell, and we would go to
22 work. We had to root out grass from the crevices and such-like tasks.
23 And they then took me to one room to clean and wash the floor. I did
24 that, and a man dressed in civilian clothes was there. I asked him
25 whether they would ever release me, whether they would ever let me leave
1 that prison. He slapped me across my face because his interpretation was
2 that I asked him whether it was possible to run away from there. He took
3 me out of the room into the yard, and he told the other men, soldiers or
4 civilians who were Serbs, that I had asked him whether I could run away.
5 Stevo Glodic arrived there at that moment and told me that he wanted to
6 protect me, but as I was behaving in such a manner, I got what I
8 Q. Were you returned to the cell?
9 A. Yes. They took me back to the cell.
10 Q. What, if anything, happened during the night?
11 A. Yes. During the night, some people came. I couldn't call them
12 soldiers because they were civilians as well, but they were Serbs, and
13 they watched over us in prison. They would point a flashlight at a man
14 who had to go out, and he would go for therapy, as they used to call it.
15 One could hear painful cries or whimpers from the adjoining room
16 because that was where they beat people. They would send some people
17 back. Some would remain there longer. Some would leave and then come
18 back. Some did not come back at all. But once they came to the door,
19 they would point a flashlight into someone and that particular person had
20 to go out and he was to be beaten.
21 Q. Were you taken out and beaten that night?
22 A. No, not that night. They didn't beat me that night at all.
23 Q. What happened in the morning?
24 A. The morning started with insults through the bars. Whoever it
25 was, a child or an old man, they would shout at us, spit at us, swear our
1 Ustasha mothers, and then we had to go to work again. We did get some
2 breakfast, I have to say, but we had to -- we had to go and perform some
3 work, whatever it was. Some small tasks. But we had to be close to
4 them, and they were able to provoke us and beat us.
5 Two young men noticed me at that time. Later, I learned that
6 they were from Prigrevica, which is a populated place in Serbia. One of
7 them was a blonde with light blonde hair. They called him Ferenc. He
8 was a Hungarian. Or maybe they called him Madzar, which means a
9 Hungarian. That was his nickname. And Ferenc was his name probably.
10 There was another one with black glasses and a big scar on his
11 face. I'm not sure on which side of his face. The two of them took me
12 to a room and ordered me to take off my trousers and my shoes or
13 sneakers, whatever I had on my feet. Then I put my feet on a chair, and
14 with a bat, they beat me on my foot soles. The pain was awful. And you
15 cannot defend yourself, of course.
16 Q. Do you remember for how long they beat you?
17 A. Well, I couldn't say how long it took. Maybe I would exaggerate
18 if I said five minutes, but in any case, 10 or 20 blows. It was
20 Q. So could you explain a little bit. How did you position your
21 feet on the chair?
22 A. I put up my feet and put them on a chair, as if I put them on the
23 desk now. So as my feet were up on the chair like this, they would hit
24 me with a truncheon on both sides of my feet as hard as they could.
25 Q. When they stopped beating you, what did you do next?
1 A. When they stopped beating me, they ordered me to go to a cellar
2 which was filled with water. The water was cold, and it was between a
3 metre and a half a metre deep, and they ordered me to wash myself. I had
4 to bathe and dive, and they were laughing at me. That was fun for me.
5 Then they gave two buckets to take some water from the basement and to go
6 and clean the toilets, actually the two toilets which were out in the
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: This was fun for
10 MS. BIERSAY:
11 Q. When you had to wash yourself, did you have your clothes back on
12 or were you still undressed?
13 A. No, no. I had put my trousers on. So I had to wash myself fully
14 dressed. Whatever I was wearing, a T-shirt and the trousers and sneakers
15 on my feet.
16 Q. And how did you clean the toilets?
17 A. I went to the toilet, and I carried water because there was no
18 water there. I had to clean faeces with my hands, and after that when I
19 finished with dirty hands, they gave me bread to eat as if I were
20 supposed to spread that on the bread and eat it, which I did in a way
21 because I had no other option.
22 Q. Were you -- how did you feel physically when you had -- after the
23 beating and you had to carry the pail and clean the toilets?
24 A. The pain in my soles was awful, so I had to put my feet on the
25 side, so to speak, and try to walk in that way, but I just had to do all
1 of that because I didn't know what would come next.
2 Q. At some point were you taken back to the cell?
3 A. Yes, I went to the cell. And after a while, I'm not sure whether
4 it was an hour or two, they took me out again and took me upstairs to
5 Zeljko Cizmic to be questioned again. When I got there, he asked me why
6 I was wet. I told him what had happened, that I was forced to throw
7 myself into the water in the basement, and he then swore at them,
8 swearing their Chetnik mothers, but I think he was doing it just for the
9 sake of form, because he must have known what was going on.
10 Stevo Glodic was also present upstairs at the time, and Zeljko
11 Cizmic told me that I would be released and that Stevo should give me a
12 lift in his car. I refused that -- or, rather, I said that it wasn't
13 necessary and that I could go on my own, because I was afraid where
14 Glodic could take me, kill me someplace, but he could have done it
15 anyway. But these were my thoughts.
16 So they agreed. They said I could go on foot, and they gave me a
17 pass in case I was stopped by the military or anybody else at the
18 check-point so that I could go home. This is how I left. I was stopped
19 in two places by civilians. I showed them the pass I had, and I had no
20 problems. I reached Bogaljevci where I left my bike. They gave it to
21 me, I took it, and I went back home to Erdut.
22 Q. At any point during your detention did they, the people who were
23 interrogating you, did they ever tell you that you were being charged
24 with a crime?
25 A. As far as I understood, the biggest problem was that I was a
1 member of the Croatian Democratic Union, their youth organisation, and
2 probably also the fact that I am a Croat.
3 Q. After you left, did you go home?
4 A. Yes, I went home. And a few days later, I'm not sure how many
5 days, but when my feet were better, I went to work at the IPK Osijek
6 vineyards, and I worked there up until October, and then they came for me
7 in a red Yugo car. It was the Krajina police. They came during the
8 night. As far as I remember, they were Zoran Oljaca, Tihomir Ivosevic,
9 and Goran Djakovic. They came in front of the house and when I saw the
10 lights, I was more or less aware of what that was. I was frightened and
11 they told my aunt who opened the door that I needed to go to the station
12 in Erdut to be questioned and that they would bring me back soon and that
13 she shouldn't worry at all. However, once I got into the car,
14 Goran Djakovic sat together with me on the back seat, and he hit me
15 several times with his hand on my temple, and he swore at me.
16 The way to the station is short, and once we arrived, they took
17 me out of the car. Oljaca kicked me in my bottom, close to my spine, and
18 sent me inside into a room where I had to -- to wipe my feet against a
19 Croatian flag.
20 Q. Mr. Antunovic, you said that you saw the -- let me just find
21 the ...
22 That they took you to the station. What do you mean by "the
24 A. Well, they called it a police station in Erdut, but there was no
25 inscription on it. There was nothing distinguishing. It was a house
1 with several rooms.
2 When Mr. Bosko Bolic was there, I guess he was the commander at
3 the Erdut police station. I was asked questions again. Everything was
4 the same, the HDZ, the Croats, the weapons, who had what, was there
5 anyone who was opposing or who was prominent as a Croat. Nothing
7 Milorad Stricevic arrived there as well. That was the first time
8 I saw him and I didn't know his name at the time. I learned that later.
9 They drove me to Dalj once again, to the same prison where I had been
10 held the first time.
11 Q. Did -- how long did you actually spend inside this house that
12 they were using as a police station?
13 A. A short time. Perhaps ten minutes or so. Not long.
14 Q. And either before or while you were being placed in the car to
15 leave, did anyone say anything to you about Erdut?
16 A. Yes. In the car, as far as I remember, Stricevic told me that I
17 should have a last look at Erdut, because I would probably not see it
19 Q. What did you understand that to mean?
20 A. Well, I thought that I wouldn't be coming back, that they would
21 probably kill me. I don't know what else I could have thought. I was
22 really frightened, of course, but I couldn't find any help anywhere.
23 Q. Now, you said you were taken to the same place in Dalj, what
24 place is that?
25 A. It was the same place, the culture hall. They first took me to a
1 room to be questioned. It was the same room where I had been the first
3 Q. Who -- did someone question you this time as well?
4 A. Yes. This time it was Stricevic. I did not see Zeljko Cizmic.
5 Stricevic was the man in charge, and it seemed to me that he was the
6 Commander-in-Chief. I company not remember exactly. I think that he
7 slapped me a couple of times, but I'm not sure if that was at that
8 particular moment when they took me in.
9 Q. Was there anyone else in the room where you were being
11 A. This Ferenc, the Hungarian from Prigrevica was present. And I
12 think that Arkan was also there on this occasion, because I know that he
13 asked me whether I knew who he was. I told him I didn't. Then he
14 slapped me and introduced himself to me as Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, the
15 leader of the Delije football fans' group and also the leader of the
16 Serbian Volunteers.
17 Q. Do you know --
18 A. No. No, I apologise. I apologise. That was on the following
19 day. My apologies. Is that not a problem? I made a mistake. I
21 Stricevic and Ferenc were present, and after questioning, they
22 took me back to the same cell where I had been before, and Arkan was not
23 present there at that time. So I apologise. I did not say that right.
24 I was taken to a cell, and there were two men inside. I could
25 not discern who they were because it was dark, but after a while I could
1 see that they were from my village, Goran and Kosta Surla. They were
2 Serbs. And we talked. I asked them why they were here, and Goran told
3 me that the problem was that they said that his father Kosta took food
4 and drink where the ZNG was in Erdut, that he brought food and drinks for
5 them, which he had to do. This is what I learned.
6 Q. If I could just ask you to give us the names again. You said
7 Goran and Kosta Surla?
8 A. Surla. The last name is Surla.
9 Q. How do you spell Surla?
10 A. S-u-r-l-a.
11 Q. And Goran Surla, did he have a nickname?
12 A. His father was called Kosta, and so eventually his nickname was
13 also Kosta, but his father's first name was Kosta, and after him he was
14 nicknamed Kosta as well.
15 Q. Were you present for any exchanges between the two Surlas and the
16 guards, present for conversations between them?
17 A. Yes, Goran Surla was angry. He swore and threatened the guards,
18 telling them that when Arkan arrived the next day that they would be
19 punished for having imprisoned him and that he knew that they would be
20 released which happened indeed the next morning. Arkan arrived. He
21 shouted at the guards, at everyone who was present at the moment. They
22 released Kosta and Goran Surla.
23 I asked this gentleman Kosta to call my aunt and tell her that I
24 was alive because she didn't know where I was and to ask her to send me
25 some cigarettes if at all possible, and he really did do all that, and
1 perhaps some two days later I got some cigarettes. They were brought to
3 Q. And which Kosta did you have that conversation with, the son or
4 the father?
5 A. With the father.
6 Q. Were you eventually that day brought to the interrogation room
8 A. Yes, yes. On that day everything was normal. I worked. I was
9 in the cell. In the evening I was taken upstairs for questioning. And
10 upstairs were Stricevic and Arkan came on that occasion. There was
11 another strong man. I learned later that he was Arkan's soldier. Ferenc
12 was present as well, the Hungarian I mentioned, and some other people.
13 My neighbour Marinko Lucan was also being questioned by them upstairs.
14 He was standing. They brought me in, and they asked me the same
15 questions all once again. Then Arkan told me to come next to him. He
16 asked me if I knew who he was. I said I didn't. He then slapped me and
17 introduced himself to me. He told me that he was Zeljko Raznjatovic,
18 Arkan, that he was the leader of the Delije and the Volunteer Guard.
19 Then they ordered me to lie down, they gave me a pencil and a piece of
20 paper, and they told me to make a list of the Croats who remained in
21 Erdut or even better who was armed. I told him that I didn't know who
22 had weapons, and then my neighbour Marinko Lucan said that he knew that
23 Vinko from Erdut was armed. Some people went out of the room. He told
24 them the address. They left to get Vinko.
25 I was lying on the floor all along. They gave me a pencil and a
1 piece of paper, and I made a list of people who had stayed in Erdut,
2 though I didn't know many, and the people I knew were mostly elderly.
3 After a while when I had written something, Arkan told me to get
4 up. I did. I gave him the piece of paper. He said that he couldn't
5 read it and that I had to write it in Cyrillic. So I laid down again and
6 the strong man who was there, I learned later that he was one of Arkan's
7 soldiers, he tread on my back, and it was impossible to write. And the
8 worst of all was that I'm not really well-versed in Cyrillic. I don't
9 know how to write in Cyrillic. I made some attempts. Arkan told me that
10 once again he could not read it but that there was enough time and I
11 could learn both to read and write in Cyrillic really well.
12 Q. You said a strong man, that he was standing on your -- treading
13 on your back. How would you describe him?
14 A. A very big man. I would say he must have weighed
15 100 kilogrammes. He was treading all over my back, and as I said, I was
16 making attempts to write, but that was impossible. I don't remember any
17 longer how he looked. I cannot remember his face. I did not dare to
18 look up. I was frightened, and the whole situation was such that I
19 couldn't do it.
20 Q. At the time, how much did you weigh when he was stepping on your
22 A. Well, I weigh 61 or 62 kilos at the moment. I didn't grow much
23 fatter since then. Perhaps I had 5 or 6 kilos less, but it was
24 thereabouts, more or less. I was always small and weak. I guess I
25 was -- I weighed 57 or 58 kilos. I wouldn't say it was any more than
2 Q. And how tall were you?
3 A. I'm 160 centimetres tall now. I doubt that I grew much since
4 then. Perhaps I may have been 3 centimetres shorter, so let's say 157
6 Q. You described that Marinko Lucan gave the name of
7 Vinko Kovacevic. Did you see Vinko Kovacevic?
8 A. Yes. After a while they went to Erdut to get him. Perhaps half
9 an hour or 45 minutes later they arrived with him. He had already been
10 beaten, probably in the car or whatever he was transported in, but one
11 could see that he had been beaten.
12 Q. During the time that you were in the -- the cell for the second
13 time, how long did you stay total there in October 1991?
14 A. Fourteen to 15 days and nights.
15 Q. And during that time were you -- were you beaten?
16 A. Well, every day, as I told you the first time, whoever passed by,
17 he would call you to come to the bars on the door, and they would slap
18 you, hit you, spit on you, whatever they wanted to do. No one prohibited
19 them from doing that. They had all the right. They wanted to assume.
20 Soldiers and civilians entered sometimes. Outside we had to work in the
21 yard. They beat us quite a lot.
22 On one occasion they took me to a room, one of the bigger rooms
23 in the yard. Two men were there. I cannot remember any longer if they
24 wore civilian clothes or uniforms. And they beat me with a truncheon and
25 with some sort of cable. It was very hard. I'm not sure if it was a
1 telephone cable, but it's very hard, harder than the truncheon and they
2 would hit me by turns, one and then the other. As soon as one hit me,
3 the other would slap me again. I sometimes put my arms up to protect
4 myself, but then they would hit me even harder. The pain was awful. I
5 then had to kneel down and write some stupid things. There was probably
6 no reason for them to keep me there, just so that I would write down who
7 was present in Erdut, who had any weapons. And that was repeated on so
8 many occasions, even though there was nothing for me to write, but I had
9 to make a list of the elderly who had stayed there, because as I said,
10 there were few young people left.
11 Then, once, one of them cut my hair with a bayonet or --
12 Q. Just a minute, Mr. Antunovic. We'll take it one step at a time.
13 How long was your hair when you were arrested in October 1991?
14 A. Well, my hair reached beyond, let's say, the middle of my back,
15 further down.
16 Q. Could you describe to the Trial Chamber how it came to be that
17 you had your hair cut while you were being detained in October 1991.
18 A. As I said, one of the men cut my hair with a bayonet or a blunt
19 knife. I was kneeling down writing this list. He took hold of my hair,
20 and then he was sawing it off rather than clipping it, really, but of
21 course it hurt me far less than the blows I had received earlier on.
22 Q. Did there come a time where you had to sing songs while you were
23 being detained?
24 MR. GOSNELL: Objection. Objection. That's quite leading.
25 MS. BIERSAY:
1 Q. Did there -- did you have a tattoo when you went -- when you were
2 detained in October 1991?
3 A. Yes. I had a tattoo of the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union,
4 on my right arm.
5 Q. At some point something happened to that tattoo; is that right?
6 Just yes or no.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber the sequence of events that lead
9 up to that?
10 A. I was outside in the yard working when one of the people, the
11 Serbs, ordered that I should get up into the cab of the military truck
12 that was parked in the yard and that I should get up there and sing the
13 Croatian song "Rise the Ban," as far as my voice would carry, and I did
14 that as -- as a rifle was pointed at me. And then I was supposed to sing
15 the Yugoslav anthem, which of course I knew, and I sang it. Then they
16 ordered me down from the truck. There was the Ferenc, the Hungarian, and
17 Sinisa Glodic. Sinisa Glodic told me then that I should take my T-shirt
18 off and show them the HDZ tattoo. I did as I was told and then he kicked
19 me and punched me and threw me around like a sack. He asked me to show
20 him the tattoo that I had of the Croatian coat of arms, which I didn't
21 have, in fact. He continued beating me, although I couldn't show him the
22 tattoo I didn't have. Then the Hungarian Ferenc told me that I had one
23 or two days before he returned to get rid of the HDZ tattoo.
24 As soon as I stepped into the cell, the prison, I took my
25 cigarettes and started burning off the tattoo. It took several
1 cigarettes, two or three, that I burned on me that day, and what was
2 formed was a very dark scab that I hoped had gotten rid of the tattoo.
3 The next morning as I woke up, I stripped the scab or the skin
4 off. It hurt terribly, but I had to get rid of it. You could still see
5 the tattoo, and then I kept on burning the tattoo off until it was gone.
6 Several days later, the Hungarian Ferenc showed up. I showed him
7 my arm to -- for him to see that I had gotten rid of the tattoo, that he
8 didn't have to cut off my arm. So although it caused me a lot of pain,
9 still, I got to keep my arm.
10 Q. What happened to the area that you burnt, today?
11 A. Well, you can see the scars, the scar where I was burning the
13 Q. Did you, while you were being detained, did you hear of anyone
14 being referred to as a Vojvoda? Yes or no?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you have any interactions with the person who was called
18 A. Yes. On a rainy day a man appeared, a soldier, wearing a rain
19 coat. He stopped by our cell. He called out me, Vinko Kovacevic,
20 and Lucan - Marinko Lucan - who was kept with us. He ordered us to slap
21 one another and to give each other as many slaps as one had years.
22 They -- he ordered, however, that we should not use the palms of our
23 hands. And of course there was this lingering anger at Marinko Lucan for
24 telling off on that person earlier on, so I slapped him, but Vojvoda or
25 the Duke would then, as a punishment, give me another slap. So we
1 actually got double the amount of slaps.
2 Q. And how would you describe the -- this Vojvoda? What did he look
4 A. He was a tall strong man. As I said, he was wearing a rain coat.
5 He was clean-shaven, groomed, not at all neglected in any way. He was
6 every inch a soldier.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned that:
8 "There was this lingering anger at Marinko Lucan for telling off
9 on that person earlier, so I slapped him."
10 What do you mean by that?
11 A. Yes. It was that anger, perhaps, and I may have gotten carried
12 off by the fact that he slapped me in turn. I suppose that's how a man
13 gets carried away by these things. It must be the instinct, I don't
15 He was taken to prison before I was, and I heard later that he
16 talked about me and about the HDZ. So it in fact turned out that he had
17 been talking about me as well.
18 Q. Did you have any other interactions with this Vojvoda after he
19 slapped you?
20 A. Yes. At the end of it all, after we did as we were told, he
21 called me to the bar door and offered me a cigarette. I took it, lit it.
22 His demeanour was even friendly, if you can call it that way, and he said
23 that for as long as he was there, nobody would be allowed to lay their
24 finger on me.
25 Q. What happened later on that day?
1 A. After a while, three or four of Arkan's men arrived. The
2 prisoner guard opened the cell for them. They stepped in and kicked us
3 with their boots. I was dealt a blow to the left side of my face,
4 whereas Vinko Kovacevic received several blows including a blow with the
5 heel right below his eye and his skin there cracked. He fainted at that
6 point. As he came to, he was disoriented. He didn't know where he was.
7 We asked the prison guard to fetch some water. He was given some water,
8 washed his face, and pulled himself together. That was it.
9 Q. Do you know anyone by the name of Matija Hum?
10 A. Yes. People would come to the prison in that period of time.
11 There was a person from Aljmas -- in fact, he was from Osijek but had
12 weekend cottage at Aljmas. He was brought in one day. He was around
13 70 -- 60 or 70 years old.
14 They beat him up as well. One evening they took him out of the
15 cell, the Arkan's Men, I mean. They banged his head against the wall
16 repeatedly. They punched him and kicked him. He never returned to the
17 cell again.
18 Q. Do you know what ethnicity Matija Hum was?
19 A. He was Croat.
20 Q. You described to the Trial Chamber that you were made to and the
21 others were made to work around the premises of the prison cell where you
22 were held. Do you recall that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And could you describe to the Trial Chamber what types of work
25 did you do.
1 A. Yes, I can. Several days later, Marinko Kovacevic and I were
2 left alone in that cell. We were told that we would not be beaten any
3 longer, that we would be a labour group, if you will, so that if a truck
4 came in carrying cargo of potatoes or peppers or whatever, we would
5 unload the food and take it to the nearby store. We would also chop
6 wood. We first went to chop wood at Milorad Stricevic's. We were even
7 given a cup of coffee there.
8 On another occasion, we went to another man's house. His last
9 name was Trbojevic. I don't recall his first name. We chopped his wood
10 and then stacked it up. And there was lady there, his wife - I don't
11 know - who gave us lunch. Can I proceed?
12 Q. In one minute, Mr. Antunovic. You said Mr. Trbojevic. What
13 ethnicity was Mr. Trbojevic?
14 A. Serb.
15 Q. And the house where you worked for Mr. Stricevic, where was that
16 in relation to the prison cell?
17 A. It is very close. I don't know if I could gauge it in metres,
18 but it was quite close to the prison. Let's say 500 metres, but I'm not
19 sure at all.
20 Q. Now, you mentioned the occasion where Arkan came in and the
21 Surlas were released; is that right?
22 A. Yes. When we were chopping wood at Trbojevic's, on that
23 occasion -- sorry?
24 Q. You told the Trial Chamber about your interactions with Arkan
25 previously. Did you see Arkan on other occasions, other than the ones
1 that you've mentioned already? So if I were to ask it perhaps a more
2 succinct way, in the -- in the two weeks that you were there, how
3 frequently would you see Arkan?
4 A. Well, I saw him when he spoke to Milorad Stricevic, when they
5 were talking about releasing me from gaol. Stricevic was in favour of my
6 release, whereas Arkan said that I should not be released because as I
7 grow older, I would become a Ustasha. And he said if I should ever catch
8 him, I would certainly not show him that sort of mercy. At any rate, it
9 seems that Stricevic prevailed and I was released that evening.
10 There was another person there - I don't know his name - a man
11 who brought a piece of paper to me, a pass which meant that I was going
12 to be released, and I was happy as a child, and in fact I was released
13 that evening.
14 Q. When you were still detained in October 1991, you said that there
15 were many different types of people and they were dressed differently.
16 There were some people who were dressed -- who were civilians and others
17 who were dressed in uniforms. Do you recall that?
18 A. Yes, I do recall that. There were people in civilian clothes.
19 There were people in camouflage, multicolour uniforms. When I was in
20 prison, I didn't observe any regular soldiers of the
21 Yugoslav People's Army.
22 Q. And how were the Arkan's Men dressed?
23 A. When I would see them, they wore the multicolour camouflage
24 uniform and dark black caps, I believe. They were all clean-shaven and
1 Q. Over the two weeks that you were detained, did you have occasion
2 to see Arkan interacting with other people who were controlling the
4 A. Yes. I saw him that once with Stricevic, as I said, and I think
5 that they were in contact, and I mean Arkan and Stricevic. I say this
6 because whenever Arkan was not there in Dalj, in prison, Stricevic was in
7 charge. Everyone obeyed him. He liked to be addressed as "Colonel,
8 sir." I've just remembered that.
9 Q. And by that, to whom are you referring?
10 A. Stricevic. Stricevic was the one who liked to be addressed as
11 "Colonel, Colonel, sir."
12 Q. And how, based on your observation, did people behave with Arkan?
13 A. Based on my experience, with fear. Everyone obeyed him. I had
14 never heard of anyone standing up to him, save for that conversation
15 which had to do with my release, but that was probably the result of an
16 agreement between Arkan and Stricevic rather than opposition. I had
17 never heard of anyone going against what he had said, at least from what
18 I was able to experience.
19 Q. When you were describing how you were taken from your -- your
20 home - this is for the October 1991 detention - you described then as
21 Krajina police. Why do you call them Krajina police?
22 A. That area was called SAO Krajina at the time, and everybody
23 called them the Krajina police. That's it.
24 Q. During the time of your detention in October 1991, were you ever
25 told why you were being detained?
1 A. No. I think that the two reasons were the HDZ and the fact that
2 I was Croat. I don't think they needed any other reasons at the time.
3 That's my opinion.
4 Q. Do you know someone named Hinko Gobina?
5 A. Hinko Gubina.
6 Q. And how would you spell the last name?
7 A. G-u-b-i-n-a.
8 Q. And do you know someone by that name?
9 A. Yes. In the 14/15 days I was there, a man was brought in that I
10 had never seen before. He was beaten up quite badly and did not spend a
11 long time with us in the cell. He spent one or two days there. He was
12 taken away. I never saw him again, nor did I ever hear of him again.
13 Q. And where is it that you saw him?
14 A. In the cell. He was there together with me and Vinko Kovacevic.
15 As I said, he was brought in, but was there for one or two days only. I
16 don't know where they took him from there.
17 MR. GOSNELL: Your Honours, could I ask my friend for a reference
18 in any of the disclosure concerning this person's name?
19 MS. BIERSAY: Certainly. I will get that for you.
20 Q. Do you know the name of a person called Pavel Bek?
21 A. Yes. I heard the name, but I never saw the man. He was someone
22 they were looking for, searching for in the prison. I recall them
23 calling out his name, but I had never seen him.
24 MS. BIERSAY: I seek some guidance from the Trial Chamber whether
25 this is a good time to stop or shall I start a new segment.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: If it's a good time for you, we can stop.
2 MS. BIERSAY: It would be, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Can the witness be brought out.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: We will take the break and we will be back at
7 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Biersay, two things: You have used so far
10 2 hours 15, and I think you were asked for a reference by Mr. Gosnell.
11 MS. BIERSAY: Yes. And he was given that reference. Thank you,
12 Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please go ahead, Ms. Biersay.
16 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time, I'd ask for
17 65 ter 2860, which is tab 16.
18 Q. And, Mr. Antunovic, I'd just ask you to look at your screen for
19 the image that appears. And this is a photograph. Do you recognise the
20 person depicted in the photograph?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And who is that?
23 A. Milorad Stricevic.
24 Q. And the way he appears in this photograph, is that consistent
25 with the way you saw him in October of 1991?
1 A. Yes. Yes. The face does, but when I saw him, he was mostly
2 wearing a black leather jacket.
3 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we'd move for the admission of
4 65 ter 2860.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2860 shall be
7 assigned Exhibit Number P5. Thank you.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MS. BIERSAY: Now requesting 65 ter 2830, tab 15.
10 Q. This is a photograph. Do you recognise anyone depicted in that
12 A. Yes, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and Milorad Stricevic, the one
13 with the glasses.
14 Q. And where is Arkan?
15 A. Arkan is the taller one to the left who is pointing with his
16 finger and who is bare headed.
17 Q. And the two men that you've identified, Arkan and Stricevic, is
18 this photograph consistent with how you saw them in October of 1991?
19 A. Yes. That's how I remember them.
20 MS. BIERSAY: We'd move for the admission of 65 ter 2830.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be assigned Exhibit P6.
23 Thank you.
24 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we'd ask to be played 65 ter 4802.1,
25 which is tab 17, and this is an extract from 65 ter 4802, which is a
1 video from November 1991. And this was -- this document was received --
2 this item was received from the Defence in the Dokmanovic case. It was
3 seized from Toma Fila in that case. And the clip that we're proposing to
4 play, 4802.1, the time codes to be played will be 00:10:30, and we'll go
5 to 00:10:57. So it's very short.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MS. BIERSAY:
8 Q. Mr. Antunovic, did you recognise anyone in that clip you just
10 A. Yes, I recognised Mr. Hadzic, Arkan. And I would ask you if I
11 could watch it once again.
12 MS. BIERSAY: So we'll now play again 4802.1.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Milorad Stricevic.
15 MS. BIERSAY: And for the record, the clip is also stamped with
16 the date 20/11/1991. At this time, could we see 4802.2, which is tab 18.
17 And then we'll also ask for .3 and .4. They're all related to the video.
18 And that's tab 18, 19, and 20.
19 [Microphone not activated] In that case, we can start with .3.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
21 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. We're trying to locate in
22 e-court .2, but we do have .3 ready. So I propose that we play .3 and
23 then .4, so tab 19 and 20, and then we can go back to .2.
24 And for the record, this photograph bears 20.11.1991, with a time
25 code of 14:26.
1 Q. Mr. Antunovic, do you recognise the document before you?
2 A. Yes. This is Milorad Stricevic.
3 MS. BIERSAY: And now if we could see 4802.4, also an extract
4 from the clip previously shown. And for the record, in the lower
5 right-hand corner it's 20.11.91, and the time code 14:29.
6 Q. Mr. Antunovic, do you recognise anyone in this photo?
7 A. Yes. I recognise Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. He is the man
8 facing the camera. He's turned with his face right towards the camera.
9 MS. BIERSAY: And at this time I'd ask if we have 4802.2
10 available. If not, we can do it the old fashioned way using the ELMO.
11 Ah, perhaps we could try 048, or without the 0, so just 4802.2,
12 and if not, we can also use the ELMO.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is this the one, Ms. Biersay?
14 MS. BIERSAY: Ah, indeed. Thank you, Your Honour. And for the
15 record, this bears the numbers 20.11.91, a time code of 14:25, also an
16 extract from the clip previously shown.
17 Q. Do you recognise this image?
18 A. Yes. This is Mr. Zeljko Hadzic.
19 Q. Did you say Zeljko Hadzic?
20 A. I'm sorry. My apologies. Goran Hadzic. I apologies.
21 MS. BIERSAY: So at this time we tender 4802.1, 4802.2, 4802.3,
22 and 4802.4.
23 MR. GOSNELL: Your Honour, just a point for the record: The
24 4802.3 does not reflected what the witness has testified was the name of
25 the person. It should nevertheless be corrected. The first name is
1 wrong. It just says "Ermin" instead of "Milorad." And while I'm on my
2 feet, Your Honours, a correction also for the record. The photographs or
3 the video in question was not seized from Mr. Fila. It was handed over
4 by Mr. Fila. I'm sure it was just a slip of the tongue.
5 MS. BIERSAY: It's a term of art we use internally and it's often
6 the subject of much discussion, but your point is well taken.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
8 Admitted and marked.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 4802.1 shall be assigned
10 Exhibit P7.
11 65 ter 4802.2 shall be assigned Exhibit P8.
12 65 ter 4802.3 shall be assigned Exhibit P9.
13 And 65 ter 4802.4 shall be assigned Exhibit P10. Thank you.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 MS. BIERSAY:
16 Q. Mr. Antunovic, when was your birthday in December of -- excuse
17 me. When was your birthday in 1991?
18 A. My birthday in 1991. Well, frankly, I don't know.
19 Q. When were you born?
20 A. The 23rd of December, 1973.
21 Q. And on the 23rd of December, 1991, how old did you become?
22 A. Uh-huh. Seventeen.
23 Q. Did you become 17 or did you become 18? Let me ask you a
24 different question. In December of 1991, around Christmas time did
25 something happen to you?
1 A. Yes. On the 25th of December, while I was working at the IPK
2 vineyards, they came to get me again with the same -- I guess it was the
3 same red Yugo, and they requested that I go with them. It was the
4 police, policemen from Erdut. Zoran Oljaca was in the car. I don't know
5 who was driving. I cannot remember. I'm not sure. And --
6 Q. The 25th of December, was that a religious holiday?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what holiday was that?
9 A. That's the Catholic Christmas.
10 Q. When is the Orthodox Christmas?
11 A. I think on the 7th of January, the 6th or the 7th of January, the
12 first month.
13 Q. And where were you taken this time?
14 A. I was taken to the police in Erdut, which I mentioned earlier,
15 the building, that is. And they came there for me in a jeep, two
16 Arkan's Men, and they took me to the place where Arkan was stationed with
17 his unit, his troops. It was a training centre.
18 Q. Where were you taken?
19 A. They took me to a room upstairs for questioning.
20 Q. Was there anybody else in the room?
21 A. Yes. An elderly woman was in the corridor in front of the room -
22 she was Manda Maj from Erdut - and an elderly man whose last name was
23 Simak. I don't know and I don't remember his first name. They brought
24 me there at the time and they handcuffed one of my hands with the hand of
25 Maja Manda [as interpreted]. Two girls came along, young girls, and they
1 hit this elderly woman, Maja Manda, on her face with a truncheon. I
2 don't know why. I heard later that her guilt was that she celebrated the
3 Catholic Christmas and that she decorated the Christmas tree.
4 Q. Were you attached to her when she was being hit?
5 A. Yes. I was handcuffed to her, and it hurt me because the
6 handcuffs were stretched, but it was worse for her, I'm sure about that.
7 Q. At some point were you separated from her?
8 A. Yes. They separated me from her, and I entered the interrogation
9 room. Milorad Stricevic was inside. He asked me whether anything was
10 going on in the vineyards or in the village, whether anyone was saying
11 against the authorities or the Serbian police, whether anyone made
12 himself prominent by expressing his Croatian feelings. I had nothing to
13 answer him. I told him that I worked with both Serbs and Croats and that
14 no one discussed politics.
15 He then said that I should be taken out and that they would call
16 me later, and that I should try to refresh my memory and think whether I
17 had anything to tell them.
18 Q. And did you have something to tell them later?
19 A. Yes. Later, they took me in, and I remembered, because I was
20 thinking very fast, and I remember the man who had been working in the
21 vineyards and had been taken away a fortnight ago. In any case, I hadn't
22 seen him in the meantime. He was shaven in such a way that his beard was
23 in the shape of the letter U as in "Ustasha," and when I said that, one
24 of the soldiers hit him with Arkan's truncheon on the neck, and he told
25 them not to beat me. He would not allow that. He said that this man was
1 a resolved case, that they had finished with him.
2 Q. And when you say "he," "He told them not to beat me. He would
3 not allow that --"
4 A. Milorad Stricevic told the soldier not to beat me, and Milorad
5 also said that the man I was talking about was a resolved case and that
6 they had finished with him. But I guess it was clear to him that I was
7 honest, and he offered me a cigarette and a glass of water, and he told
8 them to let me go home.
9 May I continue?
10 Q. Did you see anybody else that you knew that day at this location?
11 A. Yes. They then brought Jura -- Jure Zoretic. He thought that I
12 had reported him for something. I did know him from work, but I did not
13 know anything about him privately, so to speak. So he swore at me, but I
14 was released, and I had absolutely nothing to do with his arrest.
15 Q. When was the next Catholic holiday?
16 A. The next time was around Easter in April. I don't remember the
17 date, because this is a movable feast.
18 Q. And April of what year?
19 A. 1992.
20 Q. Could you describe the event that happened to you and your aunt
21 and uncle around Easter, April of 1992?
22 A. On that day I was still employed. I went to work at the IPK
23 vineyards. My aunt worked privately with a lady, and my uncle worked on
24 his tractor in another location. We did not work together. And there
25 were rumours at work that day that Croats from Erdut, Dalj, and other
1 places would be forced to leave for Osijek. We received our salaries
2 that day. I think dinars were still in use as the currency, and we got
3 home at about 3.30 p.m., and I told my aunt that I had heard that there
4 would be expulsions. Not much time passed, and a jeep stopped in front
5 of her house. A man wearing Arkan's uniform got in, told us to pack the
6 essentials, and that we would be leaving for Osijek and going to Tudjman,
7 as he said.
8 I went to one of the rooms. I took a suitcase. I packed
9 trousers and two different socks because I was frightened. I wanted to
10 leave the house as soon as possible. Not far from our house a bus was
11 waiting, and the Croats from the village were inside. I also got on the
12 bus. It was driven by a Serb from Erdut whose name I don't remember.
13 More soldiers entered the house as I was leaving, and they were
14 inspecting the rooms. In one of the rooms, which was a sleeping room of
15 my aunt and uncle, there was a photo of my uncle's son in the uniform of
16 the Yugoslav navy, and this -- Arkan's Men asked who that was. My uncle
17 explained that that was his son, and he said, Well, congratulations,
18 something to that effect. And then saw on a cupboard some knives. It
19 was a package with several knives which are used for killing pigs. He
20 asked my aunt and uncle what that was, and they said that these were the
21 knives for killing pigs. I don't know what he said, but that was the end
22 of it. And my aunt and uncle came to the bus after me, and we then left
23 in the direction of the Osijek.
24 Q. And how did you know about this conversation? Who told you about
1 A. My aunt told me.
2 Q. How many buses did you see at that day?
3 A. As far as I know, there were two buses. There were 40 to 45
4 people on our bus, definitely. It was full of mostly elderly people.
5 Q. And could you tell whether the second bus was also full?
6 A. I didn't see that it was full, but according to what people said,
7 the bus was roughly as full as the one I was on, so in all there would
8 have been roughly 90 people.
9 Q. Were there only inhabitants of the village present on the bus or
10 were there other people as well?
11 A. All the people from Erdut were on that bus. There weren't any
12 people from other places.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the names.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there were two Arkan's
16 MS. BIERSAY:
17 Q. Were they armed or unarmed?
18 A. I don't remember very well. I can't say.
19 Q. Where did the buses go?
20 A. We set out from Erdut on the road to Osijek. Excuse me. We
21 stopped by at Bijelo Brdo. I still don't know why. We were on the bus
22 that stood there for an hour or an hour and a half. And we then
23 proceeded our journey to Osijek past Sarvas without any problems. As we
24 passed Sarvas, we got out of the bus and were told to head on foot
25 towards Nemetin, and it's a small place just outside of Osijek.
1 Q. And when you -- did you stop as you walked towards Nemetin? Did
2 you stop?
3 A. Yes. Right outside of Nemetin, we heard a voice telling us that
4 we should all clear the road and take a canal, a ditch, that was next to
5 the road. We were walking along that ditch for some 50 metres and were
6 then received by soldiers of the Croatian Army or the guard as they were
8 Q. What time of day was this as you're walking?
9 A. As far as I remember, it was getting dark by that point. When we
10 reached Nemetin, it was already dark. We were put up in the cellars of
11 some weekend cottages. We were offered sedatives and drinks and we were
12 waiting for our transportation to Osijek. We were taken there in
13 ambulances. There were several. As soon as we set off for Osijek the
14 shelling of Osijek began and slowed the journey, but it all ended well.
15 We arrived in town specifically at a secondary school for commerce. Our
16 relatives got word of our arrival, and whoever had any relatives there,
17 they would come to pick them up and take them to their homes until they
18 found a place to stay.
19 My brother lived close that school, so I went to his place. My
20 aunt and uncle went to my aunt's brother's -- uncle's house. After a
21 while my aunt and uncle found a place to stay. They moved to that flat,
22 and I joined them later and lived with them.
23 Q. Did you eventually move back to Erdut at some point?
24 A. Yes. I went back -- or, actually, I went to Erdut for the first
25 time again when my aunt died. I think it was in 1999, if I remember
1 correctly, but that was just a short visit to the cemetery, and I
2 returned to my reconstructed house in 2003.
3 Q. Did you return there to live in 2003?
4 A. Yes. My wife and I together with our three children. It was the
5 property of my late aunt, and the entire family renounced any rights on
6 that land in favour of me and my brother. And, in fact, since this
7 household lies outside of the village proper it was much harder to
8 rebuilt that property than was the case with the properties in town -- in
9 the village, that is.
10 MS. BIERSAY: At this time could we please have on the screen
11 65 -- this would be tab 23, 65 ter 6201.1. And it's described as a list
12 of Dalj residents, and it's dated April 1992.
13 Q. Mr. Antunovic, do you recognise this document?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And could you read the title at the top.
16 A. "List of persons who were forcibly expelled from the village of
17 Dalj on the 18th of April, 1992."
18 MS. BIERSAY: And for the Chamber's information, we received this
19 pursuant to an RFA sent to Croatia.
20 Q. Mr. Antunovic, do you recognise the markings that appear on this
21 document to the far left?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And what are those markings?
24 A. They are the initials of my first and last name.
25 Q. And, for example, the first one, your initials appear at number 3
1 and it's circled. Why did you put your initials there?
2 A. I know the man from Dalj. He's one year my junior. I know him
3 from school, from childhood, Antun Antunovic.
4 Q. Is he related to you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And number 10 also has your initials. Whose name is that?
7 A. That is Pero Paradzik from Bogaljevci.
8 Q. And how do you know Pero Paradzik?
9 A. He lived across the street from my aunt. He was a neighbour,
10 quite old. He lived a hundred years and died. I knew him from when I
11 was a child.
12 Q. I'd like to go through the other names but I also want to make
13 sure that we finish in time, and we only have five minutes. I wanted to
14 ask you, after you reviewed this document did you see your name or the
15 name of your aunt and uncle?
16 A. In the document that is in front of me here, no.
17 Q. Now, directing your attention to --
18 JUDGE HALL: Sorry. Is that no to the three names?
19 MS. BIERSAY:
20 Q. So did you see your name on this list?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you see your aunt's name?
23 A. No. My aunt's or my uncle's. I didn't see any of the three
25 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
1 MS. BIERSAY:
2 Q. Number 34 is also circled, Hinko Gubina. Who is Hinko Gubina?
3 Is that the same person you mentioned to the Trial Chamber before or
4 someone else?
5 A. Yes. Yes. Judging by his first and last name. I did say that I
6 didn't know the person. I don't know where he was from. I recognise the
8 MS. BIERSAY: If we could turn to the next page, please. And I
9 think this will be the last page, even though there are more names
10 circled, but I will stop with this page and tender it and cease my
12 Q. Number 39 is circled, Emil Matin. How do you know that person?
13 A. Emil Matin was from Bogaljevci. He is the uncle of my brother's
15 Q. And number 40?
16 A. That is his wife, Ruzica Matin, Emil Matin's wife.
17 Q. And number 43.
18 A. Augustin Lovric, a man from Bogaljevci. Emil and Ruzica Matin
19 were also from Bogaljevci.
20 Q. And is it correct, Mr. Antunovic, that you went through the other
21 pages and circled names that -- of people -- names that you recognised?
22 A. Yes. I recognised those -- I circled those that I recognised.
23 For the others, perhaps if I saw the persons I would be able to recognise
24 them. I don't know their names, not all of them.
25 MS. BIERSAY: At this time we tender 65 ter 6201.1.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The document shall be assigned Exhibit P11.
3 MS. BIERSAY: And that would conclude my direct examination,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Biersay.
6 Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. Gosnell will lead the cross-examination.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 Mr. Gosnell.
10 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
12 Q. Mr. Antunovic, can you hear me and understood me?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. My name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent Goran Hadzic, and I
15 have a few questions for you. First of all, I'd like to thank you for
16 coming and testifying here. It cannot be easy to describe some of the
17 events that you've described. I'm going to ask you some questions. Some
18 of them may be detailed, but some of these details may be important, and
19 I hope that you will bear with me. Do you understand that?
20 A. I do understand.
21 Q. Were -- at some point before you -- after you arrived in
22 The Hague, were you informed by the Prosecution that the Defence wished
23 to meet with you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And can you tell us what they said about that specifically?
1 MS. BIERSAY: Your Honour, excuse me. Could we ascertain from
2 counsel the relevance of this to the credibility of Mr. Antunovic. I
3 don't understand the relevance of this question.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
5 MR. GOSNELL: Well, Your Honours, it's systematically important
6 to the credibility of all witnesses that we have an opportunity to meet
7 with them, and that if we don't have that opportunity it's as a result of
8 the witness declining that invitation. So I do think it's relevant to
9 this witness and to other witnesses to ascertain, ensure, verify that
10 indeed the witness said no after being properly informed of our request.
11 MS. BIERSAY: May I, Your Honour? I -- perhaps I'm just not
12 following, but it seems to be more a question about the way in which the
13 OTP conducted itself and if, in fact, the information conveyed to counsel
14 was correct or not about the witness's willingness to be interviewed.
15 And I'm still a bit lost about why this line of questioning is relevant
16 to determining the credibility of the witness and what he has told the
17 Trial Chamber today.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I had more or less the same question,
19 Mr. Gosnell.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Well, perhaps I could put the question a little bit
21 differently then and skip over this question and simply ask the witness
22 if he could explain why he declined to speak with us.
23 MS. BIERSAY: May I, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, you may.
25 MS. BIERSAY: Again, the issue of why he chose not to speak to
1 the Defence, I fail to see how it's relevant to his credibility. And
2 perhaps Mr. Gosnell can make a proffer about where he's going, because I
3 am a bit -- it's not usual for me to be lost, but now I am truly lost.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: You may proceed, Mr. Gosnell.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Antunovic, why did you decide not to meet with us?
8 A. Well, my arrival here was a great amount of pressure on me
9 anyway. I was quite busy in the course of those days, and it must be the
10 reason. I don't feel comfortable being here. It may have been down to
11 fatigue or -- I don't know how to explain it to you.
12 Q. I'd like to start off by asking you about your -- your first
13 arrest after the JNA moved into Erdut, and you've testified that you
14 were -- well, you first came across Sinisa Glodic; is that right?
15 A. I first came across the army, the individuals I mentioned, and
16 then as I was entering Bogaljevci, I came across Sinisa Glodic.
17 Q. Thank you for that correction. Indeed, that is what you said.
18 Now, when you came across Sinisa, he told you to go to his cousin Stevo;
19 is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Now, how close to Dalj were you at this point when you were told
22 to go to Stevo, or how close were you to Dalj when you actually met
23 Stevo Glodic?
24 A. A kilometre and a half, roughly. It's, in fact, a street that
25 belongs to Dalj but is a bit further away.
1 Q. So would it be fair to --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I am under the impression that these
3 were two different questions and now I'm a little bit lost as to what
4 question the answer pertains: On the one hand, the distance on the
5 moment he was told to go to Stevo, and on the other hand, when he was at
7 MR. GOSNELL: Quite right, Your Honour. Let me clarify that.
8 Q. When you say you were 1.5 kilometres away from Dalj, was that
9 when you met Stevo?
10 A. Yes. At that point, Sinisa Glodic was three or four houses away
11 from Stevo Glodic. So it's all very close.
12 Q. So you'd say this was the outskirts of Dalj; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you have an understanding as to who they were at that time?
15 In other words, in what capacity did you understand that they were
16 arresting you?
17 A. Well, I knew that they were Serbs, but I don't know what sort of
18 authorisation there was. Sinisa Glodic had weapons, and I don't know who
19 in their right mind would not have obeyed what he said.
20 Q. Did they tell you they were police?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did they say anything about their affiliation at that time to a
23 law enforcement organisation, if I can put it that broadly?
24 A. No, they didn't tell me. Stevo told me only that I was to go to
25 Dalj for questioning.
1 Q. Did they say anything to you at the moment that they were taking
2 you or while they were taking you about the reason that they were taking
3 you to Dalj?
4 A. No.
5 Q. And if I understand your testimony then, you were taken to see
6 Zeljko Cizmic; is that right?
7 A. Yes. He was at the culture hall.
8 Q. Do you remember whether either of the Glodics went into the room
9 with you with Zeljko Cizmic?
10 A. I don't remember that.
11 Q. Did Zeljko Cizmic express any surprise that you were there when
12 you were brought in?
13 A. Well, I didn't observe any sort of surprise.
14 Q. Did he ask you, Why have you been brought to me, for example?
15 A. He didn't. I said that he had asked me about the HDZ party,
16 about my brother and the Croats in Erdut, nothing else.
17 Q. So you're saying he didn't ask you about anything other than the
18 Croats in Erdut, the HDZ -- or HDZ, and your brother. No other topics
19 were inquired about?
20 A. Well, no.
21 Q. He didn't ask you about weapons?
22 A. Well, yes. I thought that that was understood. I said that they
23 always had the same questions about the brother, the HDZ, the people who
24 stayed in Erdut, the people who were armed. I can't remember really
25 every single word that was spoken. It's been a long time.
1 Q. When you say just now "that that was understood," can you tell us
2 a little further about what you mean? Why do you say after you gave the
3 three topics that you expressly mentioned, can you elaborate on why you
4 say you thought that was understood?
5 A. Well, because whenever they questioned me, I was always asked
6 about whether anybody had any weapons among the Croats who stayed behind
7 and, as I said, about my brother. It was always the same questions that
8 were put to me.
9 Q. Now, in these questions, did they somehow, whether rightly or
10 wrongly, I'm not asking you whether it was right or wrong, did they
11 connect their questions about the HDZ party and about weapons?
12 A. That I don't know.
13 Q. You don't remember whether if when they asked you about weapons
14 they challenged you as to whether it was the HDZ party that was either
15 providing or storing these weapons?
16 A. No.
17 Q. If I understand your testimony correctly -- well, how long were
18 you questioned by Mr. Cizmic?
19 A. For a relatively short period of time. I was taken to the cell
20 quite soon after.
21 Q. Did he order that you be taken to that cell?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you hear him give that order to a policeman?
24 A. I did hear him. I would certainly not have gone there to the
25 cell of my own accord.
1 Q. And to whom did he give this order, if you recall?
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. But it wasn't Sinisa Glodic; is that right?
4 A. No, it wasn't Sinisa.
5 Q. How far away was the cell that you were taken to from
6 Mr. Cizmic's office?
7 A. The office was upstairs, so down the steps and some 10 metres
8 into the yard.
9 Q. So the cell where you were held was about 10 metres away from the
10 entrance of the building where Cizmic was located?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. And -- and this is the cell where, as you've
13 testified, you were exposed to passers-by from the village?
14 A. Yes. Not passers-by in the village. That was the building of
15 the culture hall, and in the big yard was a market. There was no door or
16 no ramp. Anyone from the market could reach the cell.
17 Q. And on at that day that you were arrested, did anyone come and
18 slap you or did anyone come and slap you while you were in that cell on
19 the day that you were arrested?
20 A. There probably were some slaps, but I cannot really claim that
21 with any certainty.
22 Q. Did people come along and abuse you while you were in that cell?
23 A. There were some abuses. They would spit, and that was it mostly.
24 Q. I think you said there was a window in the room where you were
25 interrogated or questioned by Mr. Cizmic. Can you tell us whether that
1 window was facing onto the courtyard where you were located?
2 A. No, it wasn't facing the courtyard.
3 Q. Did Mr. Cizmic come and check on you at any time while you were
4 being held in this cell?
5 A. I don't remember having seen him.
6 Q. Was there anyone guarding this cell?
7 A. Yes. There was a man with a rifle, an older man.
8 Q. And did you recognise him or know him?
9 A. Yes. I knew the man by sight, and the man was -- well, he
10 consumed a lot of alcohol. I did know him.
11 Q. Do you remember his name?
12 A. The last name -- I will just say that I'm not sure. Milic, but
13 as I say, I'm not 100 per cent sure. He was an older man, thin.
14 Q. Now, you say that you learned that Cizmic was the chief of
15 police. Is it correct to say that you learned this from one of the other
16 detainees who was being held with you in that cell?
17 A. Either from them or perhaps a bit later on.
18 Q. Was the man who was guarding you in front of your cell, was he
19 wearing civilian clothing or any kind of a uniform?
20 A. Civilian clothing.
21 Q. Did you see Sinisa Glodic while you were being held in that
22 prison cell on the first day of your detention?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Or Stevo Glodic?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now, you've testified that you knew or were familiar with some of
2 the other inmates that were being held with you, but you didn't know
3 their surnames. Do you remember that?
4 A. Yes. I just said that I knew a man called Fabijancic who used to
5 work at the IPK Vinogradi. I knew him by his last name but I do not
6 remember his first name.
7 Q. Do you recall if there was a Slavko being held with you in that
8 prison cell?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, you've testified today, I believe, or perhaps it was
11 yesterday, that you were not beaten that night, the first night of your
12 detention; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. They did not take me out, and I was not.
14 MR. GOSNELL: I'd like to have 2375, 65 ter 2375. And let's just
15 start with page 1 of both documents for starters.
16 Q. Sir, have you seen this document recently?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. GOSNELL: Could we go to page -- well, the last page of both
19 documents, please.
20 Q. Now, on the right-hand side of your screen, do you recognise your
21 signature there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And it says there that that statement is true to the best of your
24 knowledge and recollection; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. GOSNELL: Could we please go to page 3 of both documents, the
2 first full paragraph of page 3 of both documents.
3 Now, at the very top, in fact it could be necessary to go back to
4 the bottom line of page 2, and I apologise for that.
5 Q. Now, I'm just going to read to you from page -- paragraph 6.
6 It's not marked on the document, but it's the last line on page 2. I'm
7 going to read it to you, Mr. Antunovic, but you do have the text in front
8 of you. And this is what you say in your statement from 1999. You say
9 that when you --
10 "When I arrived there -- when I arrived," referring to the cell,
11 "there were already four or five people imprisoned in there, and I
12 recognised them but did not know their names. That day I --" and this is
13 where we need to turn the page:
14 "That day I was sent somewhere else in the complex to clean out a
15 room and then later sent back to the cell."
16 And then the next paragraph is what I'm really directing your
17 attention to.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: We seem to have a problem here, Mr. Gosnell,
19 unless I'm mistaken, but I don't read what you read. On the second page.
20 MR. GOSNELL: The proper ERN reference is 00822136. And there we
21 have 135.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now I see it. Thank you.
23 MR. GOSNELL: So it's the first full paragraph on this page:
24 Q. "As it got dark, I was taken out of the room and into a nearby
25 basement which had about a metre of water in the bottom of it."
1 Mr. Antunovic, I want to be clear about what I'm asking you
2 about. I'm not suggesting that this did not occur. What I'm asking you
3 is whether perhaps you have the timing wrong now that you've read this.
4 A. It's possible that I got it wrong. Yes, it's possible.
5 Q. So it's possible that actually you were beaten with truncheons
6 and telephone cabling on the first night of your detention; is that
8 A. I cannot remember. I cannot. There were so many things. I know
9 what happened, but I may be wrong about the dates.
10 Q. Were the individuals who were present when you were beaten with
11 cables and truncheons, were they wearing civilian clothing?
12 A. I don't remember that.
13 Q. Were they local Serbs or were they from somewhere else?
14 A. As for those who beat me on my feet, these men were from
16 Q. Well, Mr. Antunovic, was there one beating incident during your
17 detention, or was there more than one beating incident, to the best of
18 your recollection, of course?
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: And we are still talking about the first
21 MR. GOSNELL: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they did hit me, but I don't
24 remember when or how many times.
25 MR. GOSNELL: Is this a convenient time, Your Honours?
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, it is. So the witness may be escorted out
2 of the courtroom for the second break.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: So we take the second break and come back at
6 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
8 MS. BIERSAY: I'm on my feet, Your Honour, because I've been
9 informed by the Registry that there's a correction to be made, and I
10 wondered if the Court would like me to do that while the witness is being
11 brought in. It's with respect to a surrogate sheet for one of the
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Ms. Biersay. We were told about that --
14 MS. BIERSAY: Okay.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- so please go ahead.
16 MS. BIERSAY: So I was informed that the surrogate sheet for P3
17 previously had the time code 39 seconds to 3 minute and 39 seconds, and
18 we'd requested that it be replaced with the correct time code which is
19 2 minute and 7 seconds to 3 minute and 24 seconds.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Registrar, please do so. Thank you.
21 [The witness takes the stand]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Gosnell.
23 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Antunovic, we were discussing your -- your first period of
25 detention at the Dalj police station before the break, and you testified
1 earlier today that Mr. Cizmic cursed the individuals who had beaten you
2 and put you in the water, and you testified that you thought "he was just
3 doing it for the sake of form." That's at page 14, lines 24 to 25.
4 Could you explain to us why you had that impression?
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you on your feet, Ms. Biersay? No, you're
6 not. Yes, you are.
7 MS. BIERSAY: [Microphone not activated] I am, Your Honour. I
8 think I will sit down until I figured out --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MS. BIERSAY: Excuse me. As soon as I find that reference, if I
11 have reason to stand up, I will. Thank you.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
13 MR. GOSNELL: Well, I can quote. I have it in front of me just
14 to be -- just to ensure there's no confusion. You say:
15 "I told him what had happened, that I was forced to throw myself
16 into the water in the basement, and he then swore at them, swearing their
17 Chetnik mothers, but I think he was doing it just for the sake of form,
18 because he must have known what was going on."
19 Q. So the question, Mr. Antunovic, is can you elaborate why you had
20 that impression?
21 A. Well, that is my reflection, because I don't know whether he sent
22 me to my cell to have some rest or for some other reason. I wouldn't
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antunovic. I'd now like to move to a different
25 topic entirely.
1 You were a member of the youth wing of the HDZ in 1990; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you remember exactly when it was that you joined?
5 A. I don't remember, no.
6 Q. Was it before the summertime of 1990?
7 A. I've told you that I don't remember. I cannot guess either the
8 date or the month.
9 Q. Do you remember when you got the tattoo?
10 A. I think it was in 1990, but I don't know when.
11 Q. So you have no recollection of approximately the season when you
12 got the tattoo, whether it was summer, fall, winter-time?
13 A. Well, as I told you, I wouldn't like to guess or make estimates.
14 I don't remember.
15 Q. Fair enough, Mr. Antunovic. Now, what were the activities of the
16 HDZ or HDZ youth wing?
17 A. I did not attend the meetings and the -- perhaps it was
18 distributing or posting leaflets or -- I don't know. As I said, I did
19 not take part in this.
20 Q. Did you take part in any HDZ activities at all?
21 A. Well, I had a membership card, but I don't remember that I ever
22 attended a meeting or anything, no. I don't know. No.
23 Q. Do you know who Marin Vidic, aka Bili, is?
24 A. I don't.
25 Q. Have you ever heard of Tomislav Mercep?
1 A. Yes, I heard about him.
2 Q. And who was he?
3 A. Well, I don't really follow politics much. I think that he was a
4 general in Croatia or something of the sort.
5 Q. Before August 1991, do you know if he held any position?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Does the name Stipan Radas ring a bell at all to you?
8 A. No.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 65 ter 02803. And this would be
10 page 1 of the English, about midway down. And for the B/C/S, it starts
11 at the bottom of page 1, and then we'll go over to page 2.
12 Now, I understand that there are no protective measures for this
13 witness, but if I'm mistaken on that, I'm sure I'll be corrected quickly.
14 I'm sorry, for the individual who is being referenced here. Perhaps I --
15 perhaps, Your Honours, out of an abundance of caution, we ought to go
16 into private session?
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we go into private session for a moment.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 231 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Antunovic, in front of you you have a document, and I won't
12 characterise it. What I'm interested in is your knowledge of what's said
13 in the document. And there as a sentence at that begins with
14 "Tomislav Mercep," and I'm going to read and hopefully you can follow
15 along in the B/C/S. It says, "Tomislav Mercep chaired the meeting." And
16 this is referring to a meeting tend of April 1990, of the
17 Croatian Democratic Union:
18 "Tomislav Mercep chaired the meeting. He told us in his
19 introductory speech that he had received instructions from the main HDZ
20 board in Osijek to start forming a military organisation within the HDZ
21 political party."
22 Now, let just pause there. Does this in any way refresh your
23 recollection as to whether a military wing of the HDZ started to be
24 formed in the spring of 1990?
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. It goes on to say:
2 "He was to set up a technical service whose main task in the
3 initial stage would be to arm the most trustworthy members of the HDZ,
4 who would in fact become the first conscripts of the Croatian Army that
5 was to formed at a later stage. Tomislav Mercep appointed Josip Gazo
6 head of this service. The military service which was also formed at the
7 meeting was to train the armed HDZ members in handling weapons, as well
8 as draft a war strategy for the territory of Vukovar Municipality in case
9 the creation of an independent Croatian state did not proceed
11 And it says:
12 "Stipan Radas was appointed head of this service."
13 Now, my question is: Did you hear about any training conducted
14 by any part of the HDZ organisation in the use of weapons?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. If we can go to page 4 of this document in English and the bottom
17 of page 7 in B/C/S. I'm sorry, the English is page 5. And this is in
18 the first half of the page, and this is describing some of Mr. Mercep's
19 efforts, and it says:
20 "Money was handed over to Tomislav Mercep personally, and I do
21 not know how the HDZ Municipal Board recorded the transfer of this money.
22 I do know, however, that Tomislav Mercep purchased a number of
23 Kalashnikovs using his own channels. If my memory is correct, there were
24 about 400 pieces. The weapons were stored in the building of the
25 Municipal Assembly and the offices of the National Defence Secretariat
1 from where the weapons were distributed between 10 and 15 September
3 Now, firstly, I want to ask you, in 1990, did you ever hear about
4 Kalashnikovs being distributed by the HDZ party anywhere, in your
5 neighbourhood or anywhere else?
6 A. No, I didn't hear about it.
7 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that document, Your Honours.
8 Q. Mr. Antunovic, what was it that prompted you to get a tattoo of
9 the HDZ party?
10 A. Well, I don't know that there was something that prompted me. It
11 just simply came to be as part of, you know, youth and all it brings, the
12 insanity. I didn't have it done to offend anyone, and I didn't have a
13 particular reason in doing it.
14 Q. No, I -- I'm certainly not suggesting you did it to offend
15 anyone. I'm simply trying to understand the atmosphere and mentality at
16 the time?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Did many of your -- did any of your -- well, let me put it this
19 way: How many of your friends, if any, also had HDZ tattoos?
20 A. I don't know if there were any. I don't know. I probably felt
21 that I was entitled to do so simply because I didn't have parents to
22 dissuade me from doing it.
23 Q. Okay. And --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, was it -- I'm a little bit confused.
25 Was it an HDZ tattoo or an HDZ youth organisation tattoo? Perhaps I
1 should put the question to the witness.
2 Was the tattoo HDZ tattoo, or was it a tattoo HDZ youth
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There were just these three
5 plain letters, H-D-Z, nothing else.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 MR. GOSNELL:
8 Q. Can you describe to us what the tattoo looked like.
9 A. Well, I can show them to you with my hand. This was -- this was
10 the size of the letters that I had on my upper arm here.
11 MR. GOSNELL: Let the record reflect that the witness has used
12 his fingers to show a rectangle approximately 1 inch by 3 inches, or 2.5
13 centimetres by 7 centimetres, or something in that neighbourhood, if
14 there is no objection from the Prosecution of that description.
15 MS. BIERSAY: No objection. Thank you.
16 MR. GOSNELL:
17 Q. Did -- did you have any other tattoos at that time, or was that
18 your first tattoo?
19 A. That was the first one.
20 Q. Who administered the tattoo?
21 A. An elderly man. He was called Antun. He died several years ago.
22 Q. Did he express any surprise to you that you wanted a tattoo of
23 this nature?
24 A. Well, no.
25 Q. Now, when you say that this was part of the -- and I think your
1 words were -- your exact words were "part of the insanity of the time,"
2 what do you mean by that?
3 A. I don't know. I can't give you a reason, because there wasn't
4 one. I don't know how to explain it to you.
5 Q. Well, Mr. Antunovic, you have to understand I know very little
6 about these events or this time, so what may be completely obvious to you
7 may not be entirely obvious to me or to Their Honours. So --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell, I think you are referring to the
9 insanity of the time, but the witness, if the record is correct, refers
10 to the insanity of youth, which is not in relation to the particular
11 time-frame. It's at 63, 9 and 10 and 11.
12 MR. GOSNELL: I see the record is not 100 per cent clear about
13 the answer. Perhaps I should just --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Let's clarify it.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Perhaps I should clarify that.
16 Q. Mr. Antunovic, you referred to insanity when I asked you about
17 the reasons for having the tattoo put on your arm. What did you mean by
19 A. What I meant was lack of concern for the future. I didn't give
20 future much thought. I didn't have any parents to tell me what they
21 thought about it. I just did what crossed my mine, that was all.
22 Q. Sure, but you could have got an anarchy symbol. You could have
23 got any number of other symbols. What I'm curious about is why you chose
24 that particular symbol.
25 A. Well, can I tell you, at that time that must have seemed
1 interesting to me. I don't think that I had a specific reason for that
2 tattoo. I don't know what other answer I can give you.
3 Q. But you weren't in any way interested in politics, were you?
4 A. No. I'm not interested in politics today either, not in the
6 Q. And you went to no rallies of the HDZ party?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. In fact, you went to no meetings of the HDZ, did you?
9 A. I didn't go to meetings.
10 Q. You said that your best friend in around 1989, 1990, was a Serb.
11 Do you remember saying that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Do you remember his name?
14 A. Srdjan Oksic [as interpreted].
15 Q. And one more question about the tattoo, and I do apologise for
16 asking all these questions --
17 A. Excuse me. It isn't O-k-s-i-c. It's O-p-s-i-c.
18 Q. Thank you for that correction. I'm sorry to have to go back to
19 the tattoo, but did you pay for the tattoo?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Why would this elderly gentleman who administered you the tattoo
22 do it for free?
23 A. Well, I knew his son. I knew him. It was a small village. I
24 guess he didn't object to doing it, so why not?
25 Q. And, I'm sorry, I don't know if I've asked this already, but did
1 you give us his name?
2 A. I said Antun Skakic.
3 Q. Now, you've testified that at some point the ZNG, the
4 National Guard Corps, arrived around Erdut; is that right? Do you
5 remember that testimony?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And they set up bases at the Vodovod resort and the TO centre in
8 Erdut; is that right?
9 A. Yes, as far as I know.
10 Q. Can you recall when that happened?
11 A. I don't remember the day or month.
12 Q. Was that before or after the combat that took place at
13 Borovo Selo, which occurred in early May 1991?
14 A. I think that they had come earlier.
15 Q. Can you approximate how much earlier that was?
16 A. I can't. If I could, I would tell you right away. I really
17 don't know. I don't remember.
18 Q. I completely understand, Mr. Antunovic. That's fine. Now, have
19 you heard of the Croatian reserve police force?
20 A. I have, yes.
21 Q. And do you know if they were also present either at Vodovod or
22 anywhere in the neighbourhood of Erdut prior to the Borovo Selo incident?
23 A. I don't think I saw them. I don't know if they went about the
24 village or not. At any rate, I don't remember seeing them personally.
25 Q. Did you ever hear about whether it be ZNG forces or reserve
1 police forces or any forces associated with the police driving around
2 Erdut with guns pointed out of the back of their van as a threat to the
3 Serb inhabitants?
4 A. I didn't either see that or hear of it.
5 Q. Were your Serb neighbours nervous in early 1991 about security?
6 A. I don't know what their feelings were, but it's quite possible.
7 Q. Well, you did continue to talk to your Serb neighbours in, for
8 example, the second half of 1990 and the first half of 1991, didn't you?
9 A. Yes. It was a small village, and I did talk to them, and I did
10 work with quite a few Serbs at the vineyards.
11 Q. Did any of them tell you that they were nervous about the
12 security situation?
13 A. I don't remember discussing that with them.
14 Q. You testified about the facility at the Vodovod resort being
15 shelled. Do you remember that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And when did that happen?
18 A. As I said, in late July.
19 Q. And you went there immediately after this shelling, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you described finding a horrifying scene of blood and burnt
22 mattresses, if I recall correctly; is that right?
23 A. Yes. The cabins or huts had burned down, as well as the items
25 Q. And your purpose in going there was to put out a fire, or did you
1 have some other purpose?
2 A. No. It was to help with clearing the place up of the burnt
3 mattresses and other things. I have never been a fireman myself.
4 Q. I'd like to move to a different topic now, and it's about
5 Marinko Lucan, and you've testified that you thought that he told the
6 Serbian police that you had weapons; is that right?
7 A. No, that's not right. That's not what I said.
8 Q. All right. Could you please tell us what you did say or what
9 you -- let me rephrase. What do you think Marinko Lucan told the police?
10 A. Probably something about the HDZ, as far as I am concerned. I
11 don't know any other reasons -- or, rather, I don't see that he would
12 have anything else to tell them about me having done except for the HDZ
13 party. I don't see that there would have been anything else to say about
15 Q. And he -- did he say the same thing about someone who you've
16 called -- or who you know as Ronta, R-o-n-t-a?
17 A. Yes. I forgot that. I didn't know him, but I heard that he
18 hailed from Sonda of Serbia -- of Sonta, that Marinko Lucan had betrayed
19 him, had said that he had had a cafe where he used to hoist the Croatian
21 Q. And this Mr. Lucan, you actually witnessed him informing on
22 Vinko Kovacevic; is that right?
23 A. Yes. I heard him say that.
24 Q. And that was during your second detention at the Dalj police
25 station; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 MS. BIERSAY: I just wanted to ask counsel, did he mean to say
3 "Dalj police station" at line 22?
4 MR. GOSNELL: I did.
5 MS. BIERSAY: Could we have a reference to the part of the
6 transcript where the witness talks about being detained at the Dalj
7 police station?
8 MR. GOSNELL:
9 Q. Witness, where were you detained on that second occasion in Dalj?
10 A. I was at that culture hall. I just realised that you spoke of
11 the police and the police station, but I did say repeatedly that I was
12 held at the same location on that second occasion. I apologise.
13 Q. Did you learn whether or not it was true that Mr. Kovacevic had
15 A. If I remember correctly, I think that he did say that he had one
16 but that he had thrown it away. Now, how that happened and when, I don't
18 Q. Did you have any knowledge at all of weapons being stored in
19 people's houses after the departure of Croatian forces from the area in
20 early August 1991?
21 A. I didn't have any knowledge of that.
22 Q. And, of course, that means that you didn't give any such
23 indications to the Serbian police, did you?
24 A. No, because I didn't know of it simply.
25 Q. Now, you've described a third period of detention where you were
1 taken to Arkan's training centre; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you've described a striking event of an elderly woman being
4 struck in the face with a truncheon; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Could we have 02266, please.
7 Q. Now, do you recognise that document that's coming up on the
8 screen in front of you?
9 A. Well, I can see what it says, but I can't remember what that is.
10 Q. Okay. Do you remember being interviewed by Croatian judicial
11 authorities in May 1996?
12 A. There were several occasions. I don't remember the date.
13 Q. Well, do you remember meeting with an investigating judge named
14 Ilija Bernatovic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you review this document in preparation for your testimony
18 A. I don't know. I don't remember if I did.
19 Q. Well, I'd like to look at page 2 of the B/C/S, please, and page 3
20 of the English.
21 Well, on this document, which apparently you don't -- you're not
22 familiar with, this is what you were recorded as having said, and in the
23 second paragraph there you'll see a description of your second detention
24 in Dalj, and you say at the first sentence of paragraph 3:
25 "During our stay in the prison, we had to carry out physical work
1 in the houses of these Serbian policemen."
2 And you've described that before the Court. And then you go on
3 to say:
4 "They let me out of prison after 15 days, and I went to Erdut to
5 my uncle's place and continued doing the same job in the IPK until
6 April 1992 when around two buses full of Croats were expelled from
8 Now, there's no reference at all to your detention at Arkan's
9 training centre. Well, first of all, let me ask: Having now read that,
10 do you have any recollection of this meeting with Mr. Bernatovic?
11 A. No, I don't remember the meeting. I went there a number of
12 times, and I gave statements, but I don't remember that specific meeting.
13 Q. Were you sworn? Did you take an oath during these meetings?
14 A. No. I did not take an oath at any of the meetings.
15 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that document, Your Honours.
16 Q. Sir, do you know where your aunt was accommodated after you went
17 to Osijek in April 1992?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And where was that?
20 A. When we arrived in Osijek, she went to her brother's, to a part
21 of Osijek which is called Senjak, to an apartment.
22 Q. You say "she went to her brother's." Are you saying that she
23 then went and lived with her brother?
24 A. Yes, for a few days until accommodation was found, because this
25 was a small studio apartment with very little space, but they had to go
1 somewhere for a start.
2 Q. And how was she allocated that apartment, to your knowledge?
3 A. I don't know. I don't know.
4 Q. After you yourself went to Osijek, did you subsequently join the
5 Croatian Army?
6 A. Yes, I did, the regular Croatian Army, in August 1992.
7 Q. And was that a matter of obligation? Were you conscripted, or
8 did you join voluntarily?
9 A. I was of age, so I went to serve the army. Just -- it was a
10 normal thing.
11 Q. And did you see any combat action?
12 A. No. It was the regular army. These were the conscripts who were
13 not sent to war. At least I wasn't, and other soldiers where I was were
14 not sent to war.
15 Q. Now, you say that you -- subsequent to the conflict in Croatia,
16 you returned to -- I believe you say -- did you return to your aunt's
17 house in 2000 -- sometime after the year 2000?
18 A. 2003.
19 Q. And did you move in with your aunt?
20 A. Her old house had been torn down and the Croatian state or
21 whatever kind of assistance that was, they built a new house for my
22 family and my brother's family. I live in the loft and my brother is on
23 the ground floor, in the same location where the aunt's house used to
25 Q. Have many others from the area also returned to their homes?
1 A. Yes, they have.
2 Q. Now, I know it may be hard to estimate or give a precise figure,
3 but do you have an idea of how many? How many of those who left in 1991
4 have now returned?
5 A. Well, I couldn't say how many, but there are people who stayed in
6 Osijek. They bought or built their own houses. I don't know how. There
7 are also young people who tend to move to the city, and I can say that
8 there are fewer and fewer people in my village.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Your Honours, those are my questions.
10 Mr. Witness, thank you very much for your time.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Gosnell.
13 Anything in redirect, Ms. Biersay?
14 MS. BIERSAY: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness Antunovic, I have a small
18 question to put to you: Do you think that your conditions in detention
19 worsened when the Serbian guards discovered your tattoo?
20 A. I think it was the same.
21 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: I have one question of you, Mr. Antunovic. You
23 were asked whether over the two weeks that you were detained you had the
24 occasion to see Arkan interacting with other people who were controlling
25 the prison, and you said -- your answer was:
1 "Yes. I saw him with ... Stricevic, as I said, and I think that
2 they were in contact, and I mean Arkan and Stricevic. I say this,
3 because whenever Arkan was not there in Dalj, in prison, Stricevic was in
5 What do you mean by whenever Arkan was not there, Stricevic was
6 in charge?
7 A. Well, I mean that Stricevic also had to obey Arkan. That was my
8 meaning, as if Arkan held a higher position than him. That's what I
9 meant to say.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: And was that then to say that in fact when he was
11 there, Arkan was in charge of the prison?
12 A. I don't know whether he was in charge of the prison, but what I
13 felt was that he was somehow stronger, more powerful than Stricevic.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you very much.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Anything from the parties come out of our
18 MS. BIERSAY: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Nothing. Thank you.
20 Mr. Antunovic, this is the end of your testimony before this
21 Tribunal. We thank you very much for coming to The Hague and assisting
22 us. You may now leave the courtroom, and we wish you a safe journey
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Ms. Biersay.
2 MS. BIERSAY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm on my feet, because I
3 expected and the Prosecution team expected cross-examination to take a
4 bit longer, so I'm wondering what is the Court's preference, if we take a
5 small break so that we can switch with our colleagues, or if we adjourn
6 for the day, or perhaps there's a third option I haven't thought of.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is there anything else to be discussed,
8 Mr. Gosnell.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Just one additional pending matter which are the
10 two documents that ought to be admitted.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Well, let's start with that then.
12 MR. GOSNELL: So the first document, Your Honour, that was used
13 with the witness is 65 ter 02375. That's the prior statement of the
14 witness signed on the 5th of May, 1999. The second document that was
15 used with the witness was 65 ter 02803. However, we would not tender
16 this document at this time. Our view would be that this is not yet
17 admissible. The third document, and this is the second document,
18 therefore, that we would tender, is 65 ter 02266. This is a record of
19 witness interview, dated 8th of May, 1996.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: So those two documents are admitted and marked,
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 2375 shall be
23 assigned Exhibit D1. And 65 ter document 2266 shall be assigned
24 Exhibit D2.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: We would say the best thing to do is call it a
2 day, Ms. Biersay, if you don't mind.
3 MS. BIERSAY: No. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you. Court adjourned. We reconvene
5 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day
8 of October, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.