Page 1262
1 Wednesday, 14 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
6 courtroom. Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. May we have the appearances starting
10 with the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours.
12 Douglas Stringer with Matthew Olmsted, Matthew Gillett, and Case Manager
13 Thomas Laugel for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. And for the Defence, Mr. Gosnell.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Good morning Mr. President, Your Honours. It's
16 Christopher Gosnell co-counsel for Mr. Hadzic and our legal assistant
17 Ms. Liane Aronchick.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. At about 9.30, Judge Mindua will
19 leave court, and we will sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis for the rest of the
20 session. We have one session this morning, and I'll -- I have to keep
21 that tight, because we have other -- other things to do. We have
22 deliberation meetings after that. So please try to end the
23 examination-in-chief within that time and keep some in reserve for your
24 redirect. Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
Page 1263
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we go into closed session, please.
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9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours, thank
12 you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Your witness, Mr. Olmsted.
14 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Examination by Mr. Olmsted:
16 Q. Good morning, sir.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Did you provide testimony before this Tribunal in the case
19 against Slobodan Milosevic on the 29th, 30th, and 31st of January, 2003?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. And prior to testifying here today, did you have an opportunity
22 to listen to that prior testimony?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. I will now ask you a series of questions to clarify and expand
25 upon your prior testimony. First of all, you testified previously at
Page 1267
1 transcript page 15128 that a unit with Chetnik insignias participated in
2 the 2 May 1991 armed clashes in Borovo Selo. I want to show you 65 ter
3 149. This is tab 2.
4 And I'm interested in the article on the left-hand side. And
5 this is an article from the 9 May 1991 edition of the "Politika"
6 newspaper entitled "Chetniks Armed with 'Thompson' Rifles." The article
7 reports that 14 Chetniks participated in the armed clashes in Borovo Selo
8 on the 2nd of May. Is that consistent with your recollection?
9 A. It is. Perhaps not necessarily in terms of numbers, because I
10 saw some seven or eight Chetniks at the most, whereas I see 14 are
11 mentioned, but the significant -- the difference is not that significant.
12 In any case, this does reflect the situation.
13 Q. And from what you observed --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Gosnell.
15 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, the -- I didn't object to the
16 question, but the guidelines on the presentation of evidence prescribe
17 that a witness is first supposed to be asked questions regarding an
18 incident and only once the witness is unable to recall a detail may their
19 memory be refreshed. Those are in the guidelines. So I would suggest we
20 proceed in that manner.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Olmsted. Sorry. Yes, Mr. Olmsted.
22 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm not showing this
23 document to the witness to refresh his recollection. He testifies about
24 this incident in his prior testimony, and this is to expand upon that and
25 also to corroborate his prior evidence. I will not spend the time going
Page 1268
1 through what he's already testified about because that will be admitted
2 through Rule 92 ter.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: It is a 92 ter witness, Mr. Gosnell.
4 You may proceed, Mr. Olmsted.
5 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. From what you could observe that day on the 2nd of May, 1991,
7 what kind of weapons did the Chetniks have in their possession that day?
8 A. As one can read here, I don't find this to be a leading question
9 or the assertion that counsel simply asserted his views, but it is true
10 that the Chetniks did sport Thompson rifles.
11 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence?
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit Number P239. Thank
14 you.
15 MR. OLMSTED:
16 Q. In 1991, did you meet a Serb politician by the name of
17 Milan Paroski?
18 A. I did. It was in early May in Borovo Selo during a rally.
19 Q. And did Mr. Paroski speak at that rally?
20 A. He did. He took part in the rally and addressed the gathering.
21 Mainly political matters were discussed in terms of what was going on and
22 what is to be expected and how things would develop.
23 Q. I'd like to play a video-clip for you. This is 65 ter 4904.1.
24 This is tab 31. And if we could -- we have it paused at the beginning,
25 sir. Can you confirm that the speaker -- I know we see the name there,
Page 1269
1 but can you confirm that the speaker is the person who spoke at that
2 rally in May in Borovo Selo?
3 A. I can. He is the second person to the left with the long coat,
4 beige in colour. It's the only kind of coat that -- of that colour in
5 the still.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Could the microphone be put
7 closer to the witness, please.
8 MR. OLMSTED: The interpreters have asked if the microphone could
9 be moved up toward the witness.
10 Q. If we could play this video now and stop at 1 minute and 14
11 seconds.
12 MR. OLMSTED: And I notice it is subtitled.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] I would like to point out that you
15 now hate me, Croats who live in your houses and were brought here by
16 Pavelic who colonised them here because they were good in slaughtering
17 Serbs. The Hungarians here don't wish to be the same as those in Backa
18 because they primarily serve Tudjman. This is Serbian land and they must
19 realise that they are the intruders and it will be highway for them if it
20 isn't our way. They are perpetually trying to put us down to destroy our
21 borders and our graveyards. Hungarians fear to dig up medieval
22 archaeological finds because all they will find are Serbs. This is the
23 truth. Whoever tells you that this is his land is a usurper, and you
24 have the right to kill him like a dog."
25 MR. OLMSTED:
Page 1270
1 Q. Sir, how does what Mr. Paroski said during -- well, first of all,
2 let me ask you: Do you know where this particular rally took place, this
3 one?
4 A. Well, in Jagodnjak in Baranja. That's what it was written about
5 so as not to have a leading question again. This was in Borovo Selo and
6 he used literally the same words to put forth his views and introduce
7 himself.
8 Q. And that was my next question. What he says during this
9 particular rally is consistent with what he said during the Borovo Selo
10 rally?
11 A. More or less, yes.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, may this video-clip be admitted into
13 evidence.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is the transcript attached in e-court,
16 Mr. Olmsted?
17 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, we didn't think it was necessary just
18 because it's subtitled, but if you would like us to submit a transcript
19 with it, we can certainly arrange to have that done.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's the normal procedure, Mr. Olmsted, so
21 could you please do that.
22 MR. OLMSTED: We will take care of that.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Thank you.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So then we'll MFI it for the moment.
Page 1271
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 4904.1 shall be
2 assigned Exhibit P240, marked for identification until the transcript is
3 provided. Thank you.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
5 MR. OLMSTED:
6 Q. Sir, I now would like to show you another video.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Olmsted, can the record reflect that
8 Judge Mindua leaves court and we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
9 Thanks. Please proceed.
10 MR. OLMSTED: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. I'd like to show you another video-clip.
12 MR. OLMSTED: If we could start 65 ter 4895.1. This is tab 17.
13 This one we do have a transcript for, and I want us to play until five
14 seconds into it.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Vice President of the presidency
17 of Yugoslavia Branko Kostic visited today Borovo Selo.
18 MR. OLMSTED:
19 Q. Now, that was pretty quick, but can you identify the man who is
20 more or less in the centre who is wearing the white suit?
21 A. I can. It's Branko Kostic, yes.
22 Q. Now, do you recognise the occasion of this footage?
23 A. I know it was sometime in May or June perhaps. I can't say
24 exactly. At any rate, I was there when he visited. I think it was
25 towards the end of May or perhaps June.
Page 1272
1 Q. And can you tell us where did he visit?
2 A. He toured everything that was possible to tour at such an
3 occasion since Borovo Selo was there alone. It was not connected with
4 any other populated areas or Dalj. Everything that could be toured, he
5 did tour.
6 Q. And this footage that we see here, is this Borovo Selo?
7 A. Yes. This is outside the local commune of Borovo Selo. It's the
8 plateau outside the local commune.
9 MR. OLMSTED: I would now like to play to nine seconds and pause
10 there.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. OLMSTED: We'll have to go a little bit further back. I
13 apologise. Okay. Let's play a little bit forward now.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. OLMSTED: Pause.
16 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Kostic --"
17 MR. OLMSTED:
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
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22 (redacted)
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
24 [Private session]
25 (redacted)
Page 1273
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17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
19 you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 MR. OLMSTED:
22 Q. Sir, in your prior testimony at transcript page 15306, you state
23 that the village of Celija was attacked sometime in June or July 1991.
24 Can you tell us who participated in that attack?
25 A. The village of Celija, let's be realistic, was never tactically
Page 1281
1 related or connected to anything in the region. That village has only 30
2 or 40 houses inhabited by Croats, and they had been a source of problems
3 to the locals of Bobota for going back 50, 60 years. They were never on
4 good terms. I'm only telling you what I heard. The local commune itself
5 organised a blitz operation that lasted only 10, 15 minutes. The
6 residents left the village, and the attackers retreated. Whether
7 somebody was killed in this action, I don't know. I never learned the
8 details of that operation.
9 Q. Well, do you know whether the local police in Bobota participated
10 in that operation?
11 A. I heard later, and I'll be quite realistic, that a number of
12 policemen were also involved in the attack on Celija. Not the entire
13 police, but a few of them. And I never verified that.
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 MR. OLMSTED: If we could go into private session.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
18 [Private session]
19 (redacted)
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Page 1282
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Page 1288
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4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
6 you.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. OLMSTED:
9 Q. Sir, during your prior testimony at transcript page 15173, you
10 mentioned that initially the SBWS TO manned check-points around the
11 region. From August 1991, who began manning the check-points along the
12 borders of the SBWS?
13 A. Members of the then police, which was stilled called milicija,
14 although there were -- well, I have to say this: The border area which
15 was on the borders of Croatia, although that part of Croatia was still
16 Krajina, there were members of the JNA. However, the check-points inside
17 the area itself were manned by members of the police.
18 Q. Now, you testified previously at transcript page 15162 that after
19 the takeover of Dalj, widespread looting took place in the area.
20 MR. OLMSTED: If we could have 65 ter 5589.1 on the screen. This
21 is tab 32. And if we could go to page 10 first.
22 Q. Sir, who is this individual?
23 A. I know him but only by nickname. Since we are in open session,
24 perhaps I shouldn't tell of his identity right away.
25 MR. OLMSTED: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Then perhaps we should
Page 1289
1 move to private session.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
3 [Private session]
4 (redacted)
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Page 1290
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9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
11 you.
12 MR. OLMSTED:
13 Q. Sir, how did Mr. Stanisic respond when you said that Mr. Hadzic
14 wasn't there?
15 A. He didn't quite like the fact that Goran Hadzic was not there,
16 and at the same time, or so I think, a few seconds later he started
17 shouting at those present in terms of why hadn't Vukovar fallen yet.
18 Find Goran Hadzic. I can't be very specific because it's -- it was a
19 long time ago, and I remember some things while I don't remember other
20 things, but in any case, he wanted everyone assembled in a matter of --
21 of a couple of hours to have a meeting. Then he went back to his car and
22 headed in the direction of the centre. That was all that Mr. Stanisic
23 said.
24 Q. And you testified previously that the meeting did take place
25 later that day at the Dalj TO building. Can you tell us, during this
Page 1295
1 meeting what were you doing?
2 A. At the time of the meeting I was providing security for the
3 building where the meeting was to take place.
4 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I have just one more thing for this
5 witness. It's showing him a video, but I think it's going to -- I can't
6 do it in two minutes or three minutes, so with your leave would it be
7 possible for me to show him the video first thing tomorrow?
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: How long would it take, Mr. Olmsted?
10 MR. OLMSTED: Five -- I think it's under ten minutes certainly.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: That won't be a problem. Please proceed.
12 MR. OLMSTED: Very good. Great.
13 Q. Sir, during your prior testimony, and this is at transcript page
14 15164, you recalled how Milan Martic came to the SBWS region in 1991.
15 Could you tell us approximately when did he come to the SBWS?
16 A. It was sometime in the second half of June or around the middle
17 of June of 1991.
18 Q. You stated June. Are you sure about that month?
19 A. I believe so. I think I am. Perhaps the difference is one, two,
20 or five days, but it was definitely in June.
21 Q. But it was -- it was prior to the Dalj takeover in August?
22 A. Yes. Yes. Before that.
23 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, I just note for the record that this
24 is a correction from his prior testimony.
25 Q. What were your duties with regard to Mr. Martic's visit?
Page 1296
1 A. Well, duties. They weren't duties per se because it was all
2 unofficial, but I gave myself that duty to pick him up and bring him to
3 Borovo Selo. The rest was not in my hands. Whatever time I spent with
4 him was on my personal initiative. I did spend some time with him, but
5 that was it. Nothing special.
6 Q. When he arrived, did Mr. Martic tell you where he was coming
7 from?
8 A. Yes. We talked from different sides of the Danube as he was
9 parking his car. He said he was coming from the Presidency and he had
10 been to see Mr. Slobodan Milosevic, who was then the president of
11 Yugoslavia. And he was going to visit us. That's all.
12 Q. I want as though you a video-clip. This is 65 ter 4869.1, tab
13 15. And if we could start at 10 seconds and pause at 17 seconds.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Fully in control of the situation.
16 Martic's Knindzas conquered the base in Osijek and crushed Tudjman's --"
17 MR. OLMSTED:
18 Q. Sir, who are the individuals in this image at 17 seconds?
19 A. This is an open session? If you really want me to say it, I'll
20 say it.
21 Q. Unless, sir, you are worried about your -- what you might say may
22 link you to your former position, please proceed.
23 A. No, it's not for my sake. I was thinking of you. As far as I'm
24 concerned, I can say it.
25 This is Mr. Goran Hadzic, who was president at the time. And
Page 1297
1 whether this man was a minister or just a commander of the Borovo Selo
2 defence, I don't know. That's Ilija Kojic.
3 Q. And can you tell us, where is this meeting taking place?
4 A. I think these are offices of the local commune Borovo Selo.
5 MR. OLMSTED: If we could just play to 52 seconds.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Reporter: Concerning the
8 situation in this area from Croatian TV that Martic brought tanks, we
9 discussed this with Ilija Kojic, commander of the Territorial Defence,
10 and Mr. Martic, the secretary of the MUP of Krajina.
11 "Ilija Kojic: Well, the current situation is difficult because
12 they're not observing the truce. This was evident last night when over
13 50 mortar and cannon shells landed in Borovo Selo. They continued
14 targeting Bijelo Brdo throughout the night and this morning. Fighting
15 has been going on since this morning at Palaca and --"
16 MR. OLMSTED:
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 Q. And Mr. Kojic mentions that over 50 mortar and cannon shells
21 landed in Borovo Selo the night before. Is that correct?
22 A. I'll be completely realistic. In the whole time the war lasted,
23 that number of shells did not fall on Borovo Selo. It was five or six
24 shells maximum for perhaps ten days and ten nights. That's it.
25 MR. OLMSTED: May we go into private session, Your Honours.
Page 1298
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
2 MR. OLMSTED: And --
3 THE REGISTRAR: Hold on, please.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
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8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
10 MR. OLMSTED:
11 Q. Sir, with the clarifications that you made today, are you
12 satisfied that the testimony you provided in the Milosevic case is
13 accurate and correct?
14 A. Yes, I am. Definitely. If there are any inconsistencies, that's
15 not deliberate. There can only be mistakes in dates where the exact time
16 is -- where the exact time is required. Everything I say will be
17 truthful and accurate, but please do not hold me to specific dates.
18 There are many documents with records of all my statements. You can
19 compare them all and you can see that they are generally the same. I
20 have nothing else to add.
21 Q. And I have to ask one final question: Would you give the same
22 answers today that you gave during your prior testimony if you were asked
23 them again?
24 A. Probably. Why not? Of course I would say the same. Perhaps not
25 in the same sequence but it would be the same thing.
Page 1302
1 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, at this time we seek to tender this
2 witness's 92 ter statement, which is 65 ter 5790, 5791, and 5792, along
3 with the associated exhibits to that statement.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 5790 shall be
7 assigned Exhibit P245.
8 65 ter document 5791 shall be assigned Exhibit P246.
9 And 65 ter document 5792 shall be assigned Exhibit P247.
10 Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. So the associated documents will be
12 given a number by the registrar and a memo will be circulated.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, of course. These are under seal.
15 MR. OLMSTED: Your Honours, that completes my direct examination
16 of this witness.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Mr. Witness, we have only one session
18 available this morning for the direct examination by the Prosecution, and
19 we will your testimony with the cross-examination by the Defence tomorrow
20 morning at 9.00. That means that you are not released as a witness, you
21 are still under oath, and you are not allowed to discuss your testimony
22 with anyone, and you are not allowed to talk to any of the parties as
23 long as you are testifying. Do you understand?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's clear.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You will be escorted out of
Page 1303
1 the -- yes. Let's go to closed session, sorry.
2 [Closed session]
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 you.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Court adjourned.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.47 a.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day
16 of November, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.
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