1 Thursday, 7 March 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: Good morning, Your Honours, Alexis Demirdjian
14 for the Prosecution, with Douglas Stringer; our case manager,
15 Indah Susanti; as well as our legal intern, Robert Goodwin.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: We are pleased to see you back, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 We hope you are well.
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Witness 080, the witness may be brought in, in
24 closed session. Thank you.
25 [Closed session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 Good morning to you, sir. We will start cross-examination now.
11 Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
13 WITNESS: GH-080 [Resumed]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. My name is Zoran Zivanovic, and in these proceedings I represent
18 Goran Hadzic. I am going to put some questions to you, and they all stem
19 from the testimony you provided yesterday and the day before yesterday.
20 I'll start with the period leading up to the beginning of armed conflicts
21 in Vukovar.
22 You said that in 1984 you served in the army; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. [Microphone not activated]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC:
3 Q. And after that, would you just please confirm whether I'm right,
4 you were given a war assignment in case there was a war or a military
5 maneuver? After you served in the army, you were assigned to an
7 A. No, not specifically.
8 Q. I noticed, as a matter of fact, that at one point you said that
9 you were a reservist together with a colleague of yours with whom we are
10 not going to name. That's why I put that question to you. I thought
11 that you were a member of a reserve unit of the JNA before the war
13 A. I participated in military maneuvers, and that's how I was
14 connected with that person or those persons.
15 Q. And now please tell me when you attended that military maneuver.
16 You were a member of a unit, right, and that unit was a reserve unit of
17 the JNA. Am I right?
18 A. Yes, you are.
19 Q. Do you know that there was at the time the so-called
20 Territorial Defence of Vukovar?
21 A. The Territorial Defence was a part of the JNA. That's how things
22 were at the time.
23 Q. Can we then say that they all wore the same uniforms? There was
24 not much difference between the Territorial Defence units and the reserve
1 A. Well, by and large I can agree with you on that.
2 Q. At that time in the Territorial Defence units and in the reserve
3 forces of the JNA, there were members of all nations and they were all
4 residents of Vukovar?
5 A. Yes, that's how things were.
6 Q. When the crisis started and led up to the war, did the
7 Territorial Defence units and the reserve units of the JNA disintegrate
8 due to their mixed composition? They did not stick together, as it were.
9 A. Those possibilities are now being psychologically reconsidered.
10 Q. At the beginning of the war, did the units remain the same as
11 they were in 1986 or 1987? Did they continue being the same in 1991?
12 A. When the new state emerged things changed in all aspects,
13 including the military organisation.
14 Q. And what happened to the units that you were a member of? I am
15 talking about that reserve unit that you were a member of? Did it remain
16 the same, was it transformed; hence, you joined another unit?
17 A. I repeat: We were only called when there were military
18 maneuvers; i.e., we did not have a full and permanent assignment.
19 Q. Very well. When you attended a military maneuver you were a
20 member of a unit, were you not?
21 A. We were all members of the reserve force.
22 Q. Every time when you were called to attend a manoeuvre, were you
23 always a member of one in the same unit? Did you always attend with the
24 same people?
25 A. I just told you it was a changeable form, which means that not
1 all the people are always the same.
2 Q. And now I'm going to put just a couple of questions to you that
3 relate to Ovcara and your surrender or your arrest. The way I understood
4 you was this: Up to the moment when a soldier of the JNA appeared in the
5 hangar at Ovcara and took your details, nobody had created any lists, for
6 example, in the hospital or in the JNA barracks while you were sitting on
7 the buses and waiting?
8 A. That's correct. Nobody made a list of our names. I was on a
9 list of the wounded.
10 Q. Just one more question. During that period of time from the
11 arrival of the JNA at the hospital to the moment when you were
12 transported to Ovcara and from Ovcara, did you see JNA members with white
14 A. I believe that those people took us out from the hangar, but I am
15 not sure at this moment.
16 Q. [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And now I will move on to the interrogation in Sid. You said
20 that you were brought to a police station, to the civilian police station
21 in Sid and that you were interrogated there by a civilian. Since you
22 were in the civilian police station and since you were interrogated by a
23 civilian, is that why you concluded that he was a SUP inspector?
24 A. Yes, precisely. That was my personal conclusion. He did not
25 introduce himself. He did not wear a police uniform. Since he came to
1 the premises, I thought that he was an inspector because that's how he
2 comported himself and he interrogated me.
3 Q. [Microphone not activated]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I apologise. I will repeat the question. On that occasion did
7 he tell you -- when he said that he had seen you at Ovcara, did he tell
8 you where he had seen you, in the hangar, in front of the bus, on the
9 bus? Did he tell you anything more precise than that?
10 A. No, nothing more precise than that.
11 Q. And now just one more thing, I need your clarification. You told
12 him that you didn't know anything about Ovcara, that you didn't know him,
13 that you had not seen him before. What I would like to know is this: Is
14 it really true that you did not see him at Ovcara, that you didn't notice
15 him, or perhaps you did but you kept quite about that for understandable
17 A. First of all, I didn't say that I didn't know anything about
18 Ovcara. I just denied the knowledge of the number of people who were
19 killed at Ovcara. In that conversation when we stopped talking, that was
20 that, and we did not discuss the place where he saw me or where I saw
22 THE INTERPRETER: There is a lot of background noise in the
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. However, you denied that you saw him at Ovcara and he claimed
1 that he had seen you?
2 A. I don't know who he saw and where he saw them.
3 Q. While you were at Ovcara, you really did not see him or remember
4 him as having been there?
5 A. No, I did not.
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Just one more thing that I am interested in and it is about the
10 blockade of the JNA barracks in Vukovar. Do you know why the barracks
11 was blockaded, why there was no electricity, why there was no water, why
12 the supply of food was interrupted for JNA members who were there?
13 A. No, I don't know that. As far as I know, the barracks had a
14 permanent communication with one of the sides to the conflict.
15 Q. Well, I suppose that it could remain having those permanent
16 contacts via radio?
17 A. I'm not talking about the physical blockade of the barracks
18 because that blockade was one-side as it were.
19 Q. That would be all, Witness. I have no further questions for you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 Mr. Demirdjian, re-direct?
22 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: No questions, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Witness, I have two small questions for you.
25 Questioned by the Court:
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yesterday, you told us about your family being
2 prevented from return to Vukovar in August 1991, and you said that your
3 family was prevented from returning to Vukovar at a place called Kutina.
4 Can you please tell us who or on whose authority the convoy was prevented
5 from returning, and how did you know this?
6 A. I assume that the convoys were stopped by the MUP and other
7 bodies of that executive power because the shelling of Vukovar started,
8 and I heard that over the phone because there was still phone
9 communications working at the time.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I'm sorry. You also stated, sir, it was on
13 5 March, page 3339 of the transcript, that you were transported from the
14 hospital in Vukovar to the JNA barracks in Vukovar, and that you saw
15 there were reservists and soldiers at the barracks when you arrived. I
16 suppose that when you said "soldiers," you mean JNA soldiers; right?
17 A. Well, yes. Those soldiers were JNA members. But there were also
18 reservists as members of the JNA, so it was a joint form of resistance.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: And how did you make the difference between
20 reservists and soldiers? I mean, did you -- did they wear -- did they
21 have different uniforms or insignia, whatever?
22 A. Well, this was precisely what was difficult. It was very
23 difficult to say who was a regular soldier and who was a reservist, and
24 especially that applied to those who had different uniforms or partially
25 different uniforms, and that was an additional difficulty in making a
1 distinction between them. But, as a matter of fact, it was a joint form
2 of people who worked in concert, they had their commanders, they had
3 their generals [as interpreted] of supervision and organisation, and in
4 my mind there was no doubt about that.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 If there are no other questions arising from this, then,
7 Mr. Witness, this brings your testimony to the -- your testimony to an
8 end. We thank you very much for your --
9 Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I just notice one unclear point in the
11 transcript. The witness said that "they had different channels of
12 supervision and organisation," and here is "generals of supervision." It
13 is line 19, page 8. There, "generals," he said "channels."
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can you confirm that, Mr. Witness, that you said
15 that "they had their channels of supervision and organisation?" Was that
16 what you said?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the gist of that was that
18 there were different channels through which they exercised supervision.
19 I believe that they were supervised from different sides, but I don't
20 think that it is up to me to provide more comment on that.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that the witness did say
22 "channels" in his first answers.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Witness, we thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the
25 Tribunal. You are now released as a witness. The Court Usher will
1 escort you out of court as soon as we are in closed session, and we wish
2 you a safe journey home. Thank you very much.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [Closed session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
13 Mr. Demirdjian, your -- the next witness is a viva voce witness,
14 no protective measures?
15 MR. DEMIRDJIAN: I believe that's correct, Your Honours. However
16 Ms. Dennehy will be coming in. She will be the attorney taking next
17 witness, so I will excuse myself.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Okay.
19 Mr. Registrar, we don't need a break for the setting? No. It's
20 okay. Thank you.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: As soon as counsel for the Prosecution is here,
23 we will bring the witness in.
24 MR. STRINGER: That's my assumption, Your Honour. I'd actually
25 expected the personnel to be here from 9.00, but that hasn't happened,
2 Your Honour, before the witnesses brought in, just to let the
3 record reflect that the Prosecution is now represented by
4 Ms. Muireann Dennehy and our legal intern, August Sommerfeld, who just
5 entered courtroom. Thank you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. The witness may be brought in.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Ms. Dennehy. Glad to see you up
9 and running so soon in the morning.
10 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise for my
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning, Mr. Witness. Can you hear me in a
13 language you understand?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the
16 Tribunal. Can you state your first and last name, your date of birth,
17 and your ethnicity, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the
19 24th of November, 1955, in Vukovar. My name is Branko Culic. I am Croat
20 by ethnicity.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You are about to make the solemn
22 declaration by which witnesses comitted themselves to tell the truth. I
23 point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of
24 perjury should you give false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.
25 Would you now mistake the solemn declaration, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: BRANKO CULIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much. You may be seated.
6 Ms. Dennehy, please proceed.
7 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Examination by Ms. Dennehy:
9 Q. Mr. Culic, can you hear me in a language that you understand?
10 A. I can.
11 Q. Mr. Culic, can you please tell the Court where you live at the
13 A. I live in Vukovar at present.
14 Q. What part of Vukovar do you live in? What part specifically?
15 A. In the area which is on Budzak Street, near the Dzerge forest, on
16 the road to Vinkovci.
17 Q. And would you describe this area as near or close to
18 Borovo Naselje?
19 A. The local commune I live in belongs to Vukovar but is on the
20 boundary with Borovo Naselje.
21 Q. And how long have you lived in this area for?
22 A. Ever since I was born and up until the homeland war in 1991.
23 Q. Can you please tell me what you did after you finished school?
24 A. I worked as a driver for the Cazmatrans transport company which
25 transported passengers. This was a company that was stationed in
2 Q. And where did you receive your qualifications as a driver?
3 A. I obtained my qualifications in 1974 and 1975 when I did my
4 compulsory military service, and then I got the B-category license later
5 on in Vukovar.
6 Q. And after working as a driver for the Cazmatrans company, what
7 was your job after that?
8 A. I retrained and became the fire fighter and driver of the fire
9 engine, and in 1989 I joined the fire brigade in Vukovar in that same
11 Q. Before joining the Vukovar fire brigade, did you ever work as a
12 bus driver?
13 A. Yes, I did. I was a bus driver before I joined the professional
14 fire brigade.
15 Q. And what villages did you drive the bus in?
16 A. When I started driving the bus, I covered the Vukovar-Pacetin
17 route for six years.
18 Q. And when did you first meet Goran Hadzic, the accused?
19 A. I met Goran Hadzic in 1980. He came to my house to see my dog, a
20 German shepherd who was of a very good pedigree.
21 Q. And did you ever have occasion to go to Pacetin and see
22 Goran Hadzic there?
23 A. Since I had that bus route to cover, I had time to take off my
24 duty and go to his home and see his German shepherd that he had at home.
25 Q. And what was your involvement with the football teams in the area
1 at that time?
2 A. On some days I was assigned to drive the footballers of the
3 Pacetin Sloga team when they had matches away from home, and that would
4 normally be on Sundays.
5 Q. And was Goran Hadzic part of that football team?
6 A. He was a member of that football team. He was a footballer.
7 Q. Now moving onto the Croatian declaration of independence, how did
8 that declaration of independence in 1991 increase the tensions between
9 Serbs and Croats in the area that you were living?
10 A. As far as my understanding goes and as far as I was able to
11 follow, when the League of Communists of Yugoslavia disintegrated in
12 Belgrade, the various republics of Yugoslavia saw democratic processes
13 begin, leading to the emergence of new political parties.
14 Q. And did you observe any tensions between Serbs and Croats at the
16 A. There were no tensions before the emergence of new political
17 parties with their respective platforms.
18 Q. And what practical changes did you see in the police force as a
19 result of the changes that took place at the time?
20 A. When the HDZ won in Croatia, I heard from the people I lived with
21 that some of the Serbs refused to wear a chequer-board as a symbol on
22 their hat or cap.
23 Q. And around this time, did you know of any barricades that were
24 being set up in the area?
25 A. The barricades emerged in the spring of 1991 - was it April or
1 May, I'm not sure - but that was first in Serbian villages. They were
2 the first ones to erect barricades.
3 Q. And what were the names of those Serbian villages that erected
5 A. Those were the villages with the majority Serb population,
6 Brsadin, Borovo Selo, Bobota, Pacetin, Negoslavci.
7 Q. And who patrolled those barricades in the villages that you've
8 just mentioned?
9 A. Now, whether there were some groups of people in specific
10 villages who took upon that role, I don't know. At any rate, they were
11 Serbs and they manned these barricades and were armed.
12 Q. And were these local Serbs or were they Serbs from elsewhere?
13 A. From what I know, they were from elsewhere. The Novi Sad TV
14 broadcast footages of the barricades manned by the Serbs and I learnt
15 that there was a certain number of them who had come from Serbia.
16 Q. And did you have a term for those Serbs who came from Serbia in
18 A. Amongst ourselves we would say that the Chetniks from Serbia had
20 Q. And can you please tell the Court what happened to your
21 brother-in-law at one of these Serb barricades?
22 A. Zlatko Rihter, from Celija, a small Croat village, was headed to
23 Pacetin to see the veterinarian technician because his cow had had calves
24 and he wanted him to visit his farm. He wasn't aware of the fact that
25 there were barricades. And at the barricades on the way to Pacetin, on
1 the edge of Pacetin, he was stopped and he was threatened. One of them I
2 knew for sure but I can't recall his name, he placed the point of his
3 rifle in his mouth.
4 Q. Do you know who was responsible for erecting the Serb barricades
5 around Vukovar?
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. And can you please tell the Court how did the Croats react to the
8 Borovo Selo incident in May 1991?
9 A. When on the 2nd of May, 1991, a massacre occurred in Borovo Selo
10 against the Croatian police, among those of us Croats who were in
11 Borovo Naselje, from what I could gather, fear spread.
12 Q. And what did the Croats in the area do as a result of this fear?
13 A. The various local communes started organising themselves. Or,
14 rather, the Croats started organising themselves in these local communes,
15 and slowly they would stand guard on the streets. And I can vouch for my
16 local commune.
17 Q. And when say the local communes starting organising themselves,
18 what do you mean specifically?
19 A. What I meant was that they were afraid and they wanted to check
20 the movement of people to know who precisely was passing down the street.
21 We were afraid of the Serb rebellion.
22 Q. Now you told us earlier that you worked as a fire fighter
23 Vukovar, and can you please tell me where did you work during the summer
24 of 1991 until the 5th of October, 1991?
25 A. I apologise. Can you please repeat your question?
1 Q. Where did you work after the Borovo Selo incident in May until
2 October 1991?
3 A. I worked in the professional fire brigade every day. I had to go
4 to work.
5 Q. And what did your work involve with the fire brigades?
6 A. I was on duty and if there was fire anywhere I had to go out into
7 the field and intervene. So I had to be on duty within the fire brigade
8 station in Vukovar.
9 Q. And during this time, did you ever have to visit Vukovar Hospital
10 as part of your job as a fire fighter?
11 A. The first and the last time I was at the Vukovar Hospital was on
12 the 5th of October, 1991, when I brought 10.000 litres of water together
13 with my colleague fire fighter, Slobodan Ristic.
14 Q. And when you visited the hospital on the 5th of October, what did
15 you see in the hospital?
16 A. Since the shelling was heavy, we made sure that the water
17 decanted into the apposite container, and I went into the basement where
18 I saw a crowd of wounded who were lying in beds, some of them
19 unconscious. The stench was unbearable and I didn't know where it was
20 that I was worse off, down there with them or upstairs where the shells
21 were landing.
22 Q. And did you continue to work as a fire fighter after the
23 5th of October?
24 A. No, I escaped from the fire brigade station when the tanks
25 reached all the way to the station. We dispersed and I went home.
1 Q. And when you say the tanks reached the station, what tanks were
3 A. They were the tanks of the Yugoslav People's Army.
4 Q. And what did you do after the fire brigade station was attacked
5 by the JNA tanks?
6 A. All the members of the fire brigade who were in the station
7 dispersed and fled across the graveyard to -- in the direction of the
8 centre of town -- of town of Vukovar.
9 Q. And in the days after the tanks attacking the fire brigade, what
10 did you do during those days? Did you go to work?
11 A. I didn't go to work anymore. My car had been destroyed first and
12 then my motor as well, so I stayed at home at Budzak where I manned the
13 position opposite the Dzerge forest.
14 Q. And what position was this?
15 A. Budzak is on the edge of Vukovar. When travelling from Vinkovci,
16 along that road you will come across the Budzak Street which is right by
17 the Dzerge forest.
18 Q. And when you say "the position," was that a military position?
19 A. That was our defence line at the time. At Budzak, opposite the
20 Dzerge forest, the rebel Serbs and perhaps some other paramilitaries were
21 in the Dzerge forest.
22 Q. And what happened on the 18th of November, 1991?
23 A. On the 18th of November, we retreated from that position and went
24 to the Borovo complex to the shelter where women and children were
1 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that 65 ter 6231 - that's tab 16
2 of the Court's bundle - be shown.
3 Q. Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see a document on the screen in front
4 of you.
5 Mr. Culic, do you recognise the document in front of you?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. What is this a document -- a photograph of?
8 A. The photograph depicts an area of Vukovar and Borovo Naselje.
9 Q. And can you please mark with an X where you were stationed at
10 Budzak Street?
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And can you please tell me where do you live in relation to the
13 place that you've just marked with an X?
14 A. I marked the house where I stayed until the very end. That --
15 that was where I lived.
16 Q. And can you please mark with a Y the Borovo factory complex. Or
17 if you can just circle the factory complex for me, please.
18 A. [Marks]
19 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this annotated version of the
20 photograph 65 ter 6231 be admitted into evidence.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1408. Thank you.
23 MS. DENNEHY:
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Culic.
25 Now, you've told us on the 18th of November you retreated into
1 the Borovo factory complex that you've just indicated on the map -- or
2 the photograph, I apologise. Can you please describe what you saw when
3 you entered the Borovo factory?
4 A. When I arrived at the shelter of the Borovo factory, my late
5 father, my step-mother, and two neighbours with their children were
6 already there. It was on the night between the 18th and the 19th that I
7 arrived at the footwear workshop. I was with them until the 20th, when
8 we surrendered.
9 Q. And approximately how many people were inside the factory complex
10 when you retreated into it?
11 A. In that basement where I arrived and where my family were, there
12 were around a thousand people.
13 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that 65 ter 4799.8 be shown.
14 That's a video. That's at tab 14 of the Court's bundle.
15 Q. Mr. Culic, you will shortly see a video being played on the
16 screen in front of you.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We don't have the
20 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, if I could have just a moment,
22 Mr. President, I've been advised that the transcript is in
23 e-court and it is available at present. I apologise that it hasn't been
24 given to the interpreters before now.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, do you need the clip for the images
2 only or for images and the spoken bit?
3 MS. DENNEHY: For this particular exhibit, Mr. President, I only
4 need the images. I do not need the sound. However, for other videos
5 that I intend to play there are transcripts, I believe, available, and I
6 will be tendering transcripts as well.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So we can continue with this clip for the
8 images only.
9 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: And you make sure that the transcripts are with
11 the interpreters when you play the next one.
12 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, of course, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 MS. DENNEHY:
15 Q. Mr. Culic, the scenes in front of you on the video we've just
16 played, do you recognise those scenes?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Can you please tell me where are these scenes from?
19 A. I can't see anything on the screen at the moment. I see myself.
20 Can you change that? I can't see the thing that you want me to see. I
21 have nothing on the screen.
22 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that the video again be shown -
23 that's Exhibit 4799.8 - in order to let the witness see the images.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. I have it now.
25 MS. DENNEHY:
1 Q. Again, can you please tell me where are these scenes from?
2 A. This was taken in the new shoe factory in the basement or in the
3 area known as atomic shelter.
4 Q. And was this part of the factory complex where you took shelter
5 and where you were treated to after the 18th of November?
6 A. Yes. That room was within the perimeter of the Borovo factory.
7 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this video, 4799.8, be
8 admitted into evidence, images only.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P1409. Thank you.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, so we remove the transcript from
12 e-court, right?
13 MS. DENNEHY: For this particular clip, yes.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: For this more clip, yes.
15 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 MS. DENNEHY:
18 Q. Mr. Culic, you mentioned earlier that you surrender on the
19 20th of November, 1991, can you please describe for the Court what
20 happened on that day?
21 A. On the 20th November, 1991, in the shoe factory of the Borovo
22 complex, an officer came to the gate. He was a highly-ranked officer of
23 the JNA, either lieutenant-colonel or colonel. He was accompanied by the
24 military police. He came to the gate of the Borovo complex. A group of
25 some 20 or 30 men, defenders who had withdrawn into the complex,
1 approached them and they started talking. Zeljko Jukic was amongst us.
2 He immediately recognised the officer in question because they had known
3 each other from before. Zeljko Jukic was his orderly in the army in
4 Novi Sad. They started talking. He said, Please organise yourself as
5 soon as possible and surrender as soon as possible. I cannot suppress
6 [Realtime transcript read in error, "express"] the Chetniks any longer.
7 They will storm in.
8 Q. Can I ask -- can I ask that the record be amended.
9 MS. DENNEHY: I believe the transcript reads, "I cannot express."
10 I believe the witness says, "I cannot repress [sic]."
11 THE INTERPRETER: "Suppress," the interpreter notes.
12 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Culic, other than the negotiations between Zeljko Jukic and
14 the lieutenant-colonel of the JNA on that day, were you aware of any
15 other negotiations that took place?
16 A. When I was down in the shelter I heard, and later on I checked,
17 that Ivica Banovic, the guards' commander and the police commander from
18 Varazdin, and another commander, Filkovic, went to Borovo Selo to
19 negotiate the future surrender.
20 Q. And who did Banovic and Filkovic negotiate with at Borovo Selo?
21 A. They negotiated with a highly ranking JNA officer and Arkan who
22 was also there, the notorious Arkan.
23 Q. So going back to your surrender at the Borovo factory on the
24 20th, what were you and the other Croat forces ordered to do with your
25 weapons when you surrendered?
1 A. It was agreed that colonel, lieutenant-colonel said that those of
2 us who were armed had to surrender their weapons, that we would be
3 checked, and what he had in mind were the defenders. And then we would
4 be put on buses and taken to camps. Civilians, on the other hand, women
5 and children, would be on a -- the other side and they would be taken to
7 Q. And you mentioned earlier that the lieutenant-colonel said he
8 could not suppress the Chetniks. What other forces, and Serb forces in
9 particular, were present at the factory that day?
10 A. There was a certain number of tanks at the very entrance to the
11 Borovo complex.
12 Q. And were there other armed Serb forces present?
13 A. At the moment when we surrendered on the other side of the fence,
14 there were all sorts of formations including the JNA as well as people
15 with Chetnik markings on them. There were also people with stars on
16 their hats. There were all sorts of formations but their numbers were
17 not large.
18 Q. Do you know the names of any of those formations?
19 A. No, I don't know. We called some the White Eagles or Arkan's Men
20 or rebel Serbs or the JNA. That's how we called them. When I say the
21 JNA, I mean the regular JNA troops.
22 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that exhibit number 4798.4 be shown.
23 That's at tab 10 of the Court's bundle.
24 Q. Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see another video on the screen in
25 front of you.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MS. DENNEHY: In order to assist the Court's interpreters, may I
3 ask that this be shown again. I do believe the transcript is also
4 available in respect of this video.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes, we have not been
6 provided with a hard copy of the transcript, and without it we cannot
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: We need to provide the interpreters with a hard
9 copy, Ms. Dennehy.
10 MS. DENNEHY: I understand, Mr. President. I do apologise.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we do that right away?
12 MS. DENNEHY: I am told that the hard copy transcripts are on
13 their way. It may take another few moments.
14 Perhaps it's best if I leave this and I can continue on and show
15 the video once the transcripts have been provided to the interpreters.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: It seems a good idea.
17 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you.
18 Q. Mr. Culic, we are going to show that particular video and others
19 shortly. There has been a procedural delay and so we will go back to
20 that video.
21 In the meantime, I'd like you to tell the Court what happened
22 after you surrendered to the JNA?
23 A. When I surrendered my weapons, I was searched and then I got on a
24 bus. I was on the bus number 2 or number 3 and the defenders Vukovar
25 were there together with me. I was waiting to be taken into an unknown.
1 I didn't know where we would be taken to.
2 Q. And what happened to the civilians who were present at the Borovo
3 factory at the same time?
4 A. We were looking towards the gate. We were on the left side and
5 they were on the right side. We were put on buses, whereas at the same
6 time they were put on trucks.
7 Q. Now you said you were on bus number 2 or 3 with the other
8 defenders of Vukovar. Where were you and the other men brought to after
9 you left the Borovo factory?
10 A. We drove through Borovo, Trpinja, at the Bobota-Vera cross-roads,
11 and then we turned right. We drove through Vera, we arrived in Bogojevo,
12 we crossed the bridge, and we entered Vojvodina. From Bogojevo, we were
13 taken directly to Stajicevo.
14 Q. And what did the JNA tell you about where you were going when the
15 buses left Borovo?
16 A. The military policemen, members of the JNA who searched us, we
17 knew some of them from before. They told us that nothing would happen to
18 us, that we would be taken to a camp. That's what a military policeman
19 told us. None of the other military personnel told us anything.
20 Q. And what happened when you arrived at Stajicevo?
21 A. When my bus pulled over in front of Stajicevo, and let me tell
22 you I was wounded in the right arm, that's -- that was a very difficult
23 period of my life. I'd never experienced anything like that before or
24 after. I'd run a gauntlet and a military jeep lights shone straight into
25 our eyes, and in the gauntlet there were JNA military police who beat us.
1 So we did not see who it was who beat us because we were blinded by the
2 jeep lights.
3 Q. And what did the JNA military police beat you with as you ran
4 through the gauntlet?
5 A. Some beat us with their hand. Some kicked us. Some had batons.
6 Some had wooden sticks.
7 Q. Did you see any women being beaten when you arrived at Stajicevo?
8 A. The first and last time in my life I saw that. On the left-hand
9 side a military police officer spotted a woman in a military uniform, and
10 he said, Look at this ZNG lass. And he hit her so she fell down on the
11 floor. It was a terrible thing to do. It was an awful moment, something
12 that I'll remember all my life.
13 Q. Can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at
14 Stajicevo? Or can you -- let me rephrase that: Can you please describe
15 the building into which you entered when you arrived at Stajicevo?
16 A. It was a longish building. It was a cattle barn. In the middle
17 there was an opening about 2 metres wide and on both sides there were
18 boxes for cows. As we entered, we were shouted at, we were beaten, they
19 directed those lights at us, and they instructed us to lie down on the
20 floor and that we should not lift our heads. There was commotion and
21 chaos. There was dogs there as well. It was like in a movie. I don't
22 know if you have ever seen any movie about Auschwitz, but if you did, I
23 can tell you that it was exactly like that.
24 Q. Approximately how many people were housed in the stable that you
25 just described?
1 A. About a thousand, give or take. I'm sure that there was a
2 thousand of us.
3 Q. And when you first entered the building, were there any men there
4 or people before you?
5 A. When we first entered, we saw that there were people there, not
6 many. They had arrived before us, one day or one night before us. But I
7 realised that only later. I was so afraid. They shouted at us. I could
8 not focus on anything else. When they shouted "sit down" or "lie down"
9 that's what I did. I wasn't looking around.
10 Q. And when you said "when they shouted" at you, who do you mean?
11 Who shouted at you and who was guarding you at Stajicevo?
12 A. At Stajicevo there were JNA military police reservists.
13 Q. And do you know who was in charge of the camp at Stajicevo?
14 A. On the following day, during the course of that day a person
15 entered the barn and introduced himself. He told us his name and he said
16 that he was the commander of the camp, and he said that we were
17 prisoners, that we were war rebels. He said that he -- that we would be
18 interrogated, that the conditions of our stay would improve. That's what
19 he told us.
20 Q. And to what part of the military did this commander belong?
21 A. I don't know who he was. In any case, he wore a uniform. He
22 sported some insignia. I don't know what his rank was. I know that he
23 was a JNA officer and he introduced himself to us as the person in
24 charge, the one who was responsible for that part.
25 Q. Can you please describe for the Court how the JNA military police
1 ordered you to sit or stand while you were at Stajicevo?
2 A. In any case they shouted. They used bad words. They would shout
3 "heads down," and then they would hit us by batons. Usually by batons.
4 They told us that we had to obey them. That we should not look at them.
5 That we should not lift our heads. They wanted to make sure that we
6 understood that since we were there that it was not a good thing for us.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Culic, you said that the JNA commander of the camp said
8 that you were war rebels. Were you charged with any crime at Stajicevo?
9 A. No. Never. I was never prosecuted for any crimes.
10 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, I note the time, and before I show
11 the next exhibit I wondered whether now would be an appropriate time to
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: We still have four minutes, but if that's --
14 MS. DENNEHY: That's sufficient.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
16 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask in that case that 65 ter 2410.1 be
18 Q. Mr. Culic, you'll soon see a document on the screen in front of
20 MS. DENNEHY: This is tab 6 of the Court's binder.
21 Q. Mr. Culic, do you recognise the document in front of you?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Mr. Culic, at the bottom left corner of that document, do you see
24 a circle marked in red?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Mr. Culic, did you make this circle marked in red while at
2 The Hague?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. And when did you make this marking on this document?
5 A. Yesterday afternoon.
6 Q. Can you please tell the Court why you circled in red the number
7 at the bottom left corner of this document?
8 A. Because I recognised the names of some people who were in
9 Stajicevo with me. I know some of them by name and the others I know by
10 sight. I know their faces but I can't put any names to those faces
12 Q. Mr. Culic, the name that you have circled, Barbir, was that
13 person in Stajicevo when you were detained there?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, can I please ask that this document,
16 65 ter 2410.1, be admitted into evidence.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1410. Thank you.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ready for a break now, Ms. Dennehy?
20 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Culic, we will take the first break now, come
22 back at 11.00. The Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom.
23 Thank you.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Dennehy.
4 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Culic, just before the break you looked at a document that
6 you had marked yesterday.
7 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that the Court Officer bring up
8 Exhibit P1410. Can I please scroll to the next page, too.
9 Q. Mr. Culic, you indicated before the break that you had circled
10 certain numbers indicating that those names were those individuals who
11 were at Stajicevo with you; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now looking at the document in front of you, can you please name
14 the individual who you have circled and who was at Stajicevo with you?
15 A. On this sheet I only circled the name of Ivan Batarelo. I know
16 that there are more of them by the last name of Batarelo, but I know that
17 he was with me at Stajicevo.
18 MS. DENNEHY: Can we please scroll through to the next indicated
20 Q. Mr. Culic, can you please indicate the names that appear in front
21 of you now as those individuals who were at Stajicevo with you?
22 A. I circled Bozo Brekalo, Damir Brnas, Ivan Brnas, father and son,
23 another Ivan Brnas. There were three or four of them. They were all
24 family. I don't know if they were cousins. At any rate, they were
25 related. Then I also circled Ivan Budim, who was a mechanic at
1 Cazmatrans. I also circled Miroslav Budim, his son. I circled the name
2 of Josip Budimir. He was a neighbour of mine. Filip Budimir, his
3 brother. Zoran Capan was a young man living on the street next to mine.
4 Q. Mr. Culic, what ethnicity were the people who you just named are,
5 the people you just named?
6 A. All those who -- whom I've mentioned just now were Croats. Some
7 of them may have been from mixed families, Serb or Hungarian, but most of
8 them were Croats.
9 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask the Court Officer now to scroll
10 through to the page that is the last page of this exhibit that is marked.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Culic, on page 23 of this document in front of you, can
12 you please name the people who you have indicated were in Stajicevo with
13 you on this page, please?
14 A. Robert Zivkovic, Sandor Zivkovic, Simo Zivkovic, Boris Zuvela. I
15 don't know these people as well as I do the others, but I know that they
16 were ...
17 Q. Were those people in Stajicevo with you?
18 A. Based on what is written here and from what I remember, I believe
19 that they were.
20 Q. So if I can ask you that question again, from what you remember
21 were those people at Stajicevo with you?
22 A. Yes, those persons were with me at Stajicevo.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Culic, what ethnicity, if you know, were these people?
24 A. As for the Zivkovic family, I don't think that they are Croats.
25 I do believe that Boris Zuvela [Realtime transcript read in
1 error "Zivkovic"] is a Croat.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Culic, we are going to show you a number of videos that
3 we mentioned earlier.
4 MS. DENNEHY: If I could please ask --
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry for interruption, but I think it is an
6 error in transcript. He said "Boris Zuvela," not "Boris Zivkovic." It
7 is line 7, page 32.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you confirm that, Mr. Witness, who you
9 believe was a Croat, Boris, what's his family name?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It reads Zuvela and it's a
11 well-known family name.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
13 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now please ask that 65 ter 4798.4 be shown.
14 That's a video at tab 10 of the Court's bundle.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] You can get involved a bit here to
17 help to get these people pull out, those wounded over there.
18 "A decisive action of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army with the
19 particular distinction of the Zrenjanin Battalion as they called it, the
20 decisive attack against this Ustasha stronghold was carried out. This
21 afternoon, around 5.00 p.m., the resistance has finally been broken; the
22 members of MUP and ZNG have raised their hands up in the air.
23 Approximately a thousand of them surrendered."
24 MS. DENNEHY:
25 Q. Mr. Culic, do you recognise the scenes on the video that we've
1 just shown you?
2 A. I recognise it.
3 Q. Can you please tell me what are these scenes of?
4 A. These scenes show how the Komerc building, which was part of the
5 Borovo complex, and the people who were in that building surrendered.
6 Q. Can you please tell me what -- you saw a building burning in this
7 video, what building is that?
8 A. This was the Komerc building which was in fact a storage place
9 for the finished products.
10 Q. And do you know who the men lining up against the wall at the
11 very end of the video, do you know who those men are?
12 A. Most of them were defenders of Vukovar.
13 Q. And finally, the scenes that you've just seen on the video, are
14 they reminiscent of the day that you surrendered at the Borovo factory?
15 A. Our surrender within the Borovo complex was a bit more organised.
16 We were recorded on a list.
17 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that this Exhibit, 65 ter 4798.4, be
18 admitted into evidence.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1411. Thank you.
21 MS. DENNEHY:
22 Q. Mr. Culic, I am going to show you another video.
23 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that 65 ter 4789.3 - that's at
24 tab 8 - be shown.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 "Martin Bell: ... a factory near Vukovar where the Croats had
2 held out until the last. The army was rounding up a thousand civilians
3 and 500 former soldiers. There is a massive and forced migration of
4 people going on. Again, each side is charging the other with atrocities.
5 The facts are unclear, but some terrible things were done in the final
7 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Vukovar."
8 MS. DENNEHY:
9 Q. Mr. Culic, from the video I've just shown, do you recognise the
10 scenes on that video?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And what are those scenes of?
13 A. They were the people again who had surrendered in the complex of
14 the Borovo factory.
15 Q. And did you recognise any of the men in that video?
16 A. I have.
17 Q. And who were those men that you recognised?
18 A. I recognised a young man. I can't recall his name. He was and
19 electrician at Cazma. On the 20th in the morning when I brought over the
20 water tanker, the Komerc building was empty, I drove over the water
21 tanker to connect it to the building so that people would have water. I
22 asked the officer who was there to allow me to drive the water tanker
23 through because people were thirsty. He charged a soldier to accompany
24 me and make sure that I wouldn't escape. I recognised that soldier in
25 the footage here. He helped me connect the water tanker after I had
1 driven it over.
2 Q. And the man that you recognise in the video, what uniform is he
4 A. He didn't have a uniform. He was there for the purposes of the
5 shelter where the women and children were located.
6 MS. DENNEHY: Can we please show the video again in order for the
7 witness to identify the men who he's speaking of.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 "Martin Bell: ... and at a factory near Vukovar where the Croats
10 had held out to the last. The army was rounding up a thousand
11 civilians and 500" --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the young man I was talking
14 [Video-clip played]
15 "Martin Bell: ... spend the night. And at a factory near
16 Vukovar, where the Croats had held up until last. The army was rounding
17 up a thousand civilians and 500" --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the lad that I know.
19 MS. DENNEHY:
20 Q. And Mr. Culic, do you recognise the next man who is shown in the
21 video --
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, wouldn't it be good to have on the
23 record the exact reference in the clip?
24 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, I apologise, Mr. President. Please let the
25 record show that at time stamp 25:29:5, the witness has identified an
1 unnamed man who he knows from the Borovo factory.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 "Martin Bell: ... former soldiers. There is a massive and
4 forced migration of people going on. Again, each side the charging the
5 other with atrocities. The facts are unclear, but some terrible things
6 were done in the final hours.
7 "Martin Bell, BBC News, Vukovar."
8 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that 65 ter 4789.3, the video
9 that's just been shown, be admitted into evidence.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1412. Thank you.
12 MS. DENNEHY: And may I now show - and this is the last video for
13 the time being - the exhibit at 65 ter 4799.7. That's tab 13 of the
14 Court's bundle.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Miodrag Popov: Today, again around
17 700 Ustashas have surrendered, amongst them also the well known leaders
18 of the Zenge, ZNG members, and members of the MUP from this area. They
19 were hiding deep underground, in cellars and catacombs of the
20 Borovo company. It is obvious that during the last months this company,
21 which was once a Yugoslav company, was turned into a nest of Croatian
23 MS. DENNEHY:
24 Q. Mr. Culic, do you recognise the scenes from the video that have
25 been just shown to you?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. And what are these the scenes of?
3 A. I recognise the shelter where I spent one day and where my late
4 father, my step-mother, and my neighbours were.
5 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that this video be shown again and it be
6 paused at time stamp 55:30.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MS. DENNEHY:
9 Q. Mr. Culic, from the scene and the image that is shown to you now,
10 do you recognise these buses?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And why do you recognise these buses?
13 A. Because we boarded the buses, and I mean the defenders who were
14 on the right-hand side. We boarded the buses and we were told that we
15 were being taken to camps.
16 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this exhibit, 65 ter 4799.7,
17 be admitted into evidence.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
19 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1413. Thank you.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
21 MS. DENNEHY:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Culic, I'd like to move back to before the break when we
23 spoke and you told the Court about your detention at the camp, Stajicevo.
24 Were you interrogated while you were at Stajicevo?
25 A. I was interrogated only once.
1 Q. And who interrogated you while you were at Stajicevo?
2 A. A military policeman of the JNA. And at the barn where we were
3 held, he read out my first and last name and took me out of the barn into
4 a house and a room inside it. I had to keep my head bowed and I couldn't
5 look where we were going, and he, in fact, took me to an interrogator, an
7 Q. And what was the purpose of your interrogation at Stajicevo?
8 A. When I got there, he asked me to raise my head and asked me when
9 I was born. I told him that I was born on the 24th of November, 1955,
10 and he told me, Well, you've just celebrated your birthday. How are you
11 doing? And I said, Fine. I didn't dare say anything else. He asked me
12 where I was deployed, at which positions, what sort of weapons did I
13 have, did I fire from those weapons, and if I know knew anything about
14 any crimes. That was all.
15 Q. How were you and the other men treated by the guards at
17 A. The JNA military policemen at the Stajicevo camp treated us so
18 roughly, shouted at us, beat us, and humiliated us in such a manner as I
19 had never experienced in my life before. I so frightened that I didn't
20 dare eat anything for days at an end.
21 Q. How did -- you've just mentioned that the JNA military police
22 "beat us." Can you describe that for the Court?
23 A. We were in the shed or the barn and lined into two lines. They
24 would pass in the aisle in the middle - they had those German shepherds
25 initially, the dogs - and beat us. Whoever dared raise his head a bit
1 would be beaten immediately. So nobody dared rear their heads. That was
2 in the early days. They terrorised us and they just walked past us and
3 beat whomever they pleased. We were lying down on the concrete. It was
5 If I may continue, whenever we had to go to the toilet, we would
6 raise our hand and allowed to go. I am talking about the first days of
7 the our time at Stajicevo. We went out to do whatever we needed to do,
8 to pass water. They would always be insulting us and abusing us. It was
9 horrible to even look at.
10 Q. How did they abuse you when you asked to go outside?
11 A. I will demonstrate this. I would raise my hand like this and say
12 I have to go to the toilet, and then I would stand up and be on my way.
13 But as soon as you were on your way, they would beat you. And then if
14 you were passing water, as you were doing that, and urinating, they would
15 be beating you. So they wouldn't leave us in peace even in those
16 moments. That was at the beginning. It was horrid to even look at when
17 other people were being abused this way.
18 Q. Did any of the prisoners die while you were at Stajicevo?
19 A. The early days at Stajicevo, there were people who were of a poor
20 mind state and simply didn't know what they were doing anymore. They
21 lost it. And they would stand up and start running somewhere. And, of
22 course, we weren't allowed to do anything, not even look up, unless you
23 were given permission. So whoever dared stand up uncontrollably, they
24 would immediately swarm him and beat him, kick him and punch him. There
25 was this case involving Kunac, a man who used to live on a street next to
1 mine. He lost it and they jumped him, beat him up. They never stopped
2 and he died later. That was 10 metres away from me. He was five years
3 older than me and went to school with my brother.
4 Q. And when you say "they" jumped him, beat him up. Who are you
5 referring to?
6 A. Maybe I was not clear enough. Those were military policemen.
7 They were always there. They were the rulers there.
8 Q. Did the Red Cross visit you while you were at Stajicevo camp?
9 A. The Red Cross did come to visit once, as far as I remember. That
10 was on the 6th of December, 1991.
11 Q. And what did the Red Cross do when they visited the camp?
12 A. We were relieved to see them because we knew that they would make
13 a list of all of our names. Our numbers would be known. That was a
14 guarantee that they would not take us away into an unknown. That was
15 very important, for our names to be known, and for us to send messages to
16 our families if we knew where they were.
17 Q. Did you complain to the Red Cross delegates when they visited
19 A. I did not have to complain. They realised and they knew, they
20 saw the conditions that we were in.
21 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that 65 ter 2407.1 - that's at
22 tab 4 - be shown.
23 Q. Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see a document on the screen in front
24 of you. Mr. Culic, can you -- do you recognise the document in front of
1 A. I do.
2 Q. What is this a document of?
3 A. This is a document containing the names of those people who were
4 at Stajicevo with me.
5 Q. And do you recognise the red markings on this document?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. And who made those red markings?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. When did you make those markings?
10 A. Yesterday afternoon.
11 Q. And why did you make those markings on the [indiscernible]
13 A. I made them because I recognised the names of some of the people
14 who were at Stajicevo.
15 Q. Can you please tell the Court at number 158, who is the
16 individual who is shown on this list?
17 A. 158 is Dr. Emedi, a physician who dressed my wounds at Stajicevo.
18 Q. And where was this doctor from?
19 A. He was from Vukovar, he resided in Vukovar, and he worked as a
20 doctor in Vukovar.
21 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this exhibit, 65 ter 2407.1
22 be admitted into evidence.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
24 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1414. Thank you.
25 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that 65 ter 4986.2, that's a video,
1 at tab 15 of the Court's bundle, be shown to the witness.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unknown man 1: They butchered
4 everything that moved. That's how it was.
5 "Unknown man 2: This is the famous Yugoslav factory of rubber
6 and footwear factory, Borovo. Some 1.000 to 1500 Croatian soldiers
7 surrendered here today.
8 "Petar Mlinaric: I can show you the place where I was separated
9 and put on a bus with people I have never seen again. Bearded people
10 came. They didn't know us anymore.
11 "Mirko Kovacic: Everything is as it was.
12 "Unknown woman 1: Don't cry. Please don't cry.
13 "Mirko Kovacic: We arrived here on the 19th around midnight.
14 There were eight buses. I was in the third bus. This is where the
15 gauntlet was, where they beat us."
16 MS. DENNEHY:
17 Q. Mr. Culic, the building that you saw at the end of this video,
18 what was that building?
19 A. I have nothing on the screen.
20 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that the video be shown again for
21 the witness.
22 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, we object to the -- we let it go the
23 first time because it started before I realised what was being presented.
24 What we have is an audio of individuals who were witnesses to this event
25 that are being put to the witness.
1 This is precisely the same as if we have, for example, a
2 statement given to anyone some years after the events that are then read
3 to the witness. And as you know, I tried to do this just on Monday and
4 was told that wasn't permissible. And I understand why that is. But,
5 nonetheless, that's what we're doing now. The Prosecution is putting a
6 statement by witnesses to these events and then asking for the witness to
7 comment upon that.
8 So just in terms of what the remedy would be, no objection to
9 showing the images, but there is an objection to putting the -- this --
10 essentially this testimony of witnesses to this witness.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, any reaction to that?
12 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution does not
13 intend to put this witness testimony to this particular witness. The
14 purpose of this video evidence is to identify the detention sites that
15 the witness was present at. Therefore, if it pleases the Court, we can
16 tender or suggest to tender this video without either the transcript or
17 sound, merely for the images that it presents.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: So if I understand, Mr. Gosnell, that the clip
19 will be tendered for the images only.
20 MR. GOSNELL: Well, the issue isn't only the admission, the
21 tendering, the issue is whether it should be put to the witness, the
22 audio. And what we see now is the audio is being put to the witness and
23 then the witness is supposed to give a comment or a reaction. I was
24 not --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: But not on the audio. Not on what is said. Only
1 on the images.
2 MR. GOSNELL: Well, it -- but if the images are -- sorry, if the
3 audio is played, whatever questions are asked, it's going to be
4 inevitably infected by whatever was heard on the audio, and I thought
5 that that was precisely what the Chamber considered objectionable in
6 respect of statements being read verbatim into the record.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: The Chamber didn't rule on the objection a few
8 days ago, Mr. Gosnell.
9 MR. GOSNELL: Well --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: But --
11 MR. GOSNELL: It's true you didn't rule, but you did direct me
12 not to read the statement in question --
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, on the spot we did.
14 MR. GOSNELL: And I duly did not read.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Now, without taking a position on whether or not,
16 can we show -- can we show the video without the audio?
17 This is a question to the OTP or to the Registrar? I don't know.
18 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President. We can show just the images
19 only and not the audio of this video.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. And then I suppose remove the transcript
21 from e-court.
22 Is that what you wanted to say, Mr. Registrar? Or is there
23 anything else?
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. So we'll show it again without the audio.
1 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President. I've also been asked to inform
2 you that the witness, to the Prosecution's knowledge, does not speak
3 English and therefore cannot read the subtitles that are contained on
4 this video.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MS. DENNEHY:
8 Q. Mr. Culic, from the images that have just been shown to you, do
9 you recognise these images?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. From the building that has just been shown to you, do you
12 recognise that building?
13 A. I recognise the building. I will never forget it.
14 Q. Can you please tell the Court where is that building?
15 A. That building is near Zrenjanin, on a farm, and the name of that
16 farm is Stajicevo.
17 Q. And was this the detention facility that you were detained at, at
19 A. Yes, that's where we from Vukovar were detained. That's -- that
20 was its purpose.
21 Q. And Mr. Culic, the image in front of you now, at
22 time stamp 1:36:51.2, do you recognise those scenes?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. The barbed wire that you see in the video, was that the barbed
25 wire that you surrounded the Stajicevo camp?
1 A. That barbed wire surrounded the camp and there were guards at
2 every corner.
3 MS. DENNEHY: If we can now continue the video until time stamp
4 36:56, please.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MS. DENNEHY:
7 Q. Mr. Culic, do you recognise these scenes as being similar to
8 those that you experienced at Stajicevo?
9 A. Yes, I do. And everything is similar to when I was at Stajicevo.
10 MS. DENNEHY: Can we now play the remainder of the video.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that this 65 ter 4986.2 be
13 admitted into evidence, images only.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marking.
15 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1415. Thank you.
16 MS. DENNEHY:
17 Q. Mr. Culic, how long were you detained at Stajicevo for?
18 A. I stayed in Stajicevo for a month, give or take. In any case,
19 around a month.
20 Q. And when did you leave Stajicevo, approximately?
21 A. We left Stajicevo before the Catholic Christmas that year, before
22 the 24th of December.
23 Q. And how many men left Stajicevo on the day that you left?
24 A. As far as I can remember, we all left. One group was taken to
25 Mitrovica and the others were taken to Nis.
1 Q. And where did you go that day?
2 A. I was with the group of people who were taken to Nis.
3 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that 65 ter 6327 - that's page 4 of the
4 Court binder; that's the Court binder of maps. This is at tab 20 of the
5 Court's binder for this witness - be shown.
6 Q. Mr. Culic, do you recognise the document in front of you?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. What is this a document of?
9 A. This is a map of the Republic of Serbia.
10 Q. Can you please indicate on the map with the pen in front of you
11 the approximate location of Stajicevo on this map?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Can you now please indicate where the location of Nis is on this
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. And finally, can you approximately point to the location of
17 Vukovar on this map?
18 A. [Marks]
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honour, my client would like to leave the
20 courtroom for a short time.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: If that's okay with security.
22 [The accused withdrew]
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we continue in the meantime, Mr. Zivanovic,
24 or do we wait for him to come back?
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: We continue.
2 Please proceed.
3 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, can I please ask that this exhibit,
4 6327, as annotated by the witness be admitted into evidence.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
6 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1416. Thank you.
7 MS. DENNEHY:
8 Q. Mr. Culic, you just indicated for the Court the location of Nis
9 where you were taken from Stajicevo. Can you please describe the
10 facility that you were taken to at Nis?
11 A. When we arrived in Nis in front of the penitentiary or the
12 military prison there, a huge gate opened, then we entered the courtyard,
13 then another gate opened. Those gates were both very tall. It was dark.
14 It was like a horror move. It was in the middle of the night. And only
15 in the third courtyard did the buses finally stop and the prisoners were
16 unloaded from the buses, one after the next, and they were taken to a
18 Q. And what armed forces controlled the penitentiary at Nis?
19 A. It was the regular military police, i.e., young policemen, who
20 were doing their regular military service.
21 Q. And what did the guards do to you and the other prisoners when
22 you arrived at Nis on the bus?
23 A. As I was getting off the bus and as I was entering the building,
24 I had to go down the stairs. There was another gauntlet waiting for us
25 there. I was immediately kicked in the chest by a tall soldier. For a
1 moment I lost my breath. And they shouted at us ordering us to align
2 against the wall. So immediately upon entering the building, I was dealt
3 a very heavy blow in the chest.
4 Q. And you said that "there was another gauntlet waiting for us
5 there," can you describe what that gauntlet was?
6 A. As we were entering, we had to walk close to the wall, and in the
7 middle of the staircase there was a line of military policemen. They hit
8 us and kicked us and shouted at us and ordered us to keep our heads down,
9 and then one of them said, My God, these people stink to high heavens.
10 Q. Why did the guard say these people stink to high heavens?
11 A. Because we had not had a bath since Vukovar. In Vukovar, for
12 those last few days there was no water or food or anything, so we did not
13 take a bath there. We did not bathe in Stajicevo. Vukovar was hell.
14 Everything was hell.
15 Q. And what did the guards do to your hair shortly after you arrived
16 at Nis?
17 A. On the following day, once we were put in our rooms, on the
18 following day they gave us olive-drab uniforms of the JNA, and they took
19 us to have our heads shaved.
20 Q. Did anyone explain to you why you were at Nis?
21 A. No explanations were provided. Nobody told us why we were in
22 Nis. Yes, I apologise. When we arrived at Nis and when we were
23 distributed across rooms, the commander of that prison made rounds of the
24 rooms. He introduced himself to us. He said that he was a colonel or a
25 lieutenant-colonel. He said that he had arrived from Zadar, that he had
1 taken over the prison, that we would be there until we were interrogated.
2 He also mentioned the fact that we were beaten, and he said that he could
3 not be in two places at the same time. And then he said that after 9.00
4 in the evening nobody would beat us.
5 Q. And were you charged with a crime when you arrived at Nis or any
6 time while you were detained at Nis?
7 A. No, I was not charged with any crimes. Me, personally.
8 Q. Can you please describe how the guards treated you and the other
9 prisoners at Nis?
10 A. Those military policemen were young lads. When they woke us up
11 in the morning, they stormed the rooms. They started shouting: Get up.
12 Go quickly. Go wash. Go there. They slapped us and kicked us. They
13 shouted. And then when we were taken for breakfast, we had to keep our
14 heads down. We were not allowed to look them in the face. And we had to
15 run down the stairs.
16 When we arrived at the mess, we would be lined up by the table,
17 and then they would shout, Sit down, and then we sat down. And then she
18 would shout, Get up, and whoever was the last to do that would be beaten
19 or kicked or slapped. And that happened twice or three times before we
20 started eating. For the first couple of days they even kept on beating
21 us while we were eating, and then on the third day, one of them, and I
22 didn't see them because we did not dare look at their face, so that one
23 person said, Now, enough is enough. Let's stop beating them while
24 they're eating.
25 Q. Were you interrogated while you were at Nis?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How many times were you interrogated?
3 A. Four times.
4 Q. And can you describe your --
5 A. Four or five times. I am not sure because I was taken twice to
6 the same interrogator, but I was taken four times to different places.
7 Q. Can you describe for the Court the final interrogation that took
8 place at Nis?
9 [The accused entered court]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At 1.30 p.m., a military policeman
11 came for me. He opened the door and had a piece of paper in his hands
12 and he said, Branko Culic. I had to go out. He asked me to bend over
13 and stretch my arms in front of me, and that was how I had to walk down
14 the steps and into the yard outside and then into a room. As I stepped
15 into the room, he kicked me in my backside so that I hit the wall of the
16 room, and closed the door behind him.
17 Then the interrogator arrived. He was a man of heavy build. He
18 started cursing me right away and then beating me on my arms and my head.
19 I kneeled down on a bench by the wall and I raised my arms. Then he
20 started beating me all over my body. Then at one point he started
21 beating only my left side, up from my arms down to my feet. And I was
22 there for some seven or eight hours, so it must have been until 9.00 in
23 the evening. I didn't know that they brought over my cousin and the
24 commander of the street after I was taken. So they were placed in the
25 adjacent rooms. So they would be beating me and then leave the room and
1 beat them. And they would be taking turns this way.
2 MS. DENNEHY:
3 Q. What questions did they ask you during this interrogation?
4 A. He asked me who was firing from the sniper rifle, who was laying
5 mines, who was killing the Serbs and setting houses on fire. I mean, he
6 was asking me if I knew about these things. He asked me what the
7 positions were that I manned. He asked me who had laid the mines in the
8 area where we were present. He asked about who had ordered us to lay
9 these mines. Those were the questions asked.
10 Q. And how many guards were in the room while you were being
12 A. There wasn't a single guard inside. There was the interrogator
13 and two more persons came later. Two of them beat me, the other one
14 didn't. Then some of them would leave the room, and then this person who
15 wasn't beating me would come back to the room and say, Don't let them
16 beat you. Why don't you make a confession? And I said, Well, I said
17 that I was always sincere in my answers and that I said what I knew, and
18 that they could not force me to say things that weren't true.
19 Q. And do you know what military unit to which the interrogator
21 A. The interrogator, the tall and strong man, wore a uniform, a
22 camouflage uniform, but without any insignia. He knew how to beat a man.
23 He would kick you or punch you five times in exactly the same place. It
24 was a targeted blow and an experienced one.
25 Q. Mr. Culic, you said they said to you, Why don't you make a
1 confession. Did you ever gave a statement while you were at Nis?
2 A. At Nis I didn't write anything down because there wasn't anything
3 for me to write about in terms of the questions that they put to me. And
4 even if I had anything to write about, I was not able to on account of
5 the beatings. He would be hitting me in the chest and asking me what my
6 name was to see if I was still conscious and if I was still someone you
7 could work with.
8 Q. And how long did this interrogation last for?
9 A. That last interrogation at Nis lasted from around 1.30 p.m. until
10 7.30 or 8.00 p.m. Let's say until 7.30 p.m. It lasted long. It was the
11 longest interrogation I had.
12 Q. And what happened after the interrogation?
13 A. The military policemen who had brought me there took me back the
14 same way. I had to place my arms in between my legs and then he would be
15 dragging me along. I had never seen this manner of walking in my life.
16 He forced me up the steps and took me to my room, and then he asked me to
17 jump and land on both my feet on the concrete ten times, because he knew
18 that I had been beaten on the soles of my feet, and when I jumped he
19 would say, No good. Again. So I had to jump and land on my poor sole on
20 the concrete ten times again. He then asked me how many children I had.
21 And then he kicked me in my backside and that was the way that he pushed
22 me into the room. That was when my eyes watered, when he asked me about
23 my children. I could contain my tears no longer.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, I think it would be appropriate to
25 take the break now.
1 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Culic, we'll take the second break we usually
3 take around this time and come back at 12.45. The usher will escort you
4 out of the courtroom. Thank you very much.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Ms. Dennehy.
11 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Mr. Culic, before the break you described for the Court the
13 interrogations and beatings that you suffered from at Nis. When did you
14 leave the penitentiary at Nis?
15 A. We left the penitentiary at Nis two days after this
16 interrogation. I know that for a fact. It may have been the 20th. But
17 I know that it was two days after that interrogation that we went to
19 Q. The 20th of what month and what year?
20 A. The 20th of February, 1992.
21 Q. And you said that you went to Mitrovica. How did you go to
23 A. At 3.00 in the morning lights went up. The military police
24 stepped in and told us to take our uniforms off, to put on civilian
25 clothes, to tidy up our beds, and get ready because they would be
1 boarding a bus. That was when we left all the rooms and boarded the
2 buses. When all those who they felt should board the buses did, we
3 headed for Mitrovica.
4 Q. And who was in charge of the buses leaving for Sremska Mitrovica
5 from Nis?
6 A. It was the JNA army, the Yugoslav Army. They were in charge of
7 it all. We were in their hands, their officers and personnel. They
8 organised it all and were in charge of it all.
9 Q. And how did they treat you on the bus from Sremska Mitrovica?
10 A. There were two armed military policemen in the bus. Quite
11 frequently they would walk up and down the bus and slap whoever happened
12 to be within their reach, and my cousin was seated in such a way that he
13 got twice as many blows as I did. In those four or five hours they would
14 have slapped us on quite a few occasions, and, of course, we had to keep
15 our heads down. That was the sort of farewell that they bid to us.
16 Q. And can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at
17 Sremska Mitrovica?
18 A. I saw that we entered the prisoner compound. There were buses,
19 one behind the other, and we were waiting for prisoners to get off the
20 bus and enter the building. When the turn of our bus came, we got off.
21 Again, there was a gauntlet there that we had to run through. We were
22 then frisked, although not seriously, really, and then they saw us to our
23 respective cells, but they didn't beat us on this occasion.
24 Q. And where did you stay when you were detained at
25 Sremska Mitrovica?
1 A. I stayed on the second floor. I was in room 7 at Nis, whereas I
2 was in room 6 here. It was room number 6 on the second floor. It was a
3 room that could fit about a hundred people. We were all crowded into
4 that one room. So some of the people from the buses were sent to this
5 room and others were placed elsewhere. I don't know where. But as I
6 said, only some of the people who had arrived on the buses with me were
7 in the room where I stayed.
8 Q. Were you interrogated while you were at Sremska Mitrovica?
9 A. They interrogated me.
10 Q. How many times were you interrogate, approximately?
11 A. I was interrogated three times at Mitrovica and that was always
12 before that same interrogator who had interrogated me at Nis. The last
13 interrogation was a very brief one and it was different.
14 Q. Can you describe the worst interrogation that you experienced
15 while you were detained at Sremska Mitrovica?
16 A. The worst interrogation occurred ten days after our arrival from
17 Nis. By that time the blisters on my soles had managed to heal finally.
18 And that was the first time that I was interrogated in Mitrovica. I had
19 to go down stairs to the basement where there were isolation cells and
20 bathrooms where we would bathe. I was taken before the same interrogator
21 who had interrogated me the last time in Nis.
22 As soon as I got in, I had to take my shoes off and kneel down
23 onto a beer crate. He was beating me on the soles and wherever else he
24 could, but mostly on my soles.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note there is terrible
1 background noise in the headphones.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was followed by my cousin,
3 Ivo Culic, and Ilija Atkar [phoen].
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure about the name.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He then gave us a piece of paper
6 and a pen. Outside in the corridor he told me, Kneel down by that small
7 window. This is where you're going to write your confession. As for the
8 others, they endured the same torture and then were taken out into the
9 corridor next to me.
10 I had that piece of paper and a pencil. There was this small
11 window by me. You couldn't see through it. But there was this window
12 with a sill. I heard -- let me say that they -- the military policemen
13 in Mitrovica belonged to the reserve force. They were a bit older but
14 they were quite strong. There I could hear noise coming from inside that
15 room. They were beating a man and I could hear the noise of his
16 bones [as interpreted] breaking, and you could hear the blunt blows. And
17 then one of the said, Now, there, enough is enough. But the other one
18 replied, No, no, he's just pretending, as if to say, No, no he's just
19 pretending to be feeling bad. We should go on beating him. Then one of
20 the military policemen got out of that room and I recall his face. He
21 was blonde and had a mustache. He had a baton. He approached me. Beat
22 me on my -- kicked me on my back, and then I turned round and he told me,
23 You didn't hear anything. You didn't see anything. And he said the same
24 to the other two who were with me. I later on learned that that young
25 lad who was being beaten died. Apparently he hailed from Mitnica, though
1 I'm not sure.
2 At any rate, I was ordered to write my statement by that window
3 purposefully so that I should hear how they were beating that young man.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Just one transcript correction. The witness did
7 not mention the word "bones." It is line 8, page 57.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is it the sentence where it said, "They were
9 beating a man and I could hear the noise of his" --
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Bones.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- "bones breaking..."?
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: He didn't mention the word "bones," the word
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Culic, you said, according to the record:
15 "They were beating a man and I could hear the noise of his," and
16 then a word, "... breaking."
17 What did you hear breaking?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard such a kick. It was a blow
19 with a foot and it was a blunt blow. You could hear how hard it was.
20 Maybe I wasn't clear. It was a blunt blow. It wasn't a slap. And you
21 could hear how they were breaking him. They were really breaking him up.
22 And I heard that the man died later.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Dennehy.
25 MS. DENNEHY:
1 Q. Mr. Culic, were you ever charged with a crime while you were
2 detained as Sremska Mitrovica?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you -- did you know of or ever hear of any sexual
5 mistreatment that took place at Sremska Mitrovica?
6 A. When I was in Mitrovica, I did not hear of any sexual crimes.
7 When I was released from Serbian prisons, when I met up with my
8 colleagues, I heard that they sexually ill-treated a woman called Manda,
9 who was in the isolation cell. This was down to two military policemen,
10 and the following morning when their commander came on duty he punished
11 them. Quite a few people heard that because they were close to the
12 isolation cell where that Manda was.
13 Q. How were the prisoners tried in solitary confinement in the
14 isolation cells?
15 A. My friend who was also in an isolation cell said that it depended
16 on the kind of order they had. Sometimes they had a special order to
17 come and ill-treat you. He said that he would spend ten or 15 days in
18 the isolation cell where he was more heavily beaten than elsewhere. In
19 any case, while he was in the isolation cell he was beaten more heavily,
20 and then he would returned to the common room with everything else.
21 Q. Who did Pero Gojon see while he was held at Sremska Mitrovica?
22 A. My friend, Pero Gojon, was an inmate. He saw Goran Hadzic. He
23 entered the room. He stepped about a metre, two metres into the room,
24 and there were some three or four people with him wearing military
25 uniforms. He said that he would have them all returned to Vukovar where
1 they would be put on trial.
2 Let me continue. After the war, I spoke to Josip Tomasic, the
3 commander of the defence of Sajmiste. He was one of those who had spent
4 some time in the isolation cell. He told me that Goran Hadzic visited
5 him, used very vulgar words when talking to him, and he told him that he,
6 himself, would take him back to Vukovar to be tried.
7 Q. You said that: My friend Pero Gojon saw Goran Hadzic. Where
8 specifically did your friend Pero see Goran Hadzic?
9 A. Pero Gojon saw him in the room where he was imprisoned. I asked
10 him how that transpired, and he said he entered the room, he stepped
11 perhaps one or two metres into the room, and he told him that he would
12 have them returned to Vukovar to be tried. He didn't enter my room, but
13 I know that the other people said that Goran Hadzic did come and did
14 visit them in their rooms. That was the story that was told amongst
16 Q. And when you say Goran Hadzic entered the rooms, where were these
17 rooms? What detention facility were these rooms at or in?
18 A. In Mitrovica, it was a three-storey building with rooms, each of
19 them contained between 80 and 120 prisoners. I don't know how many rooms
20 he visited, but I know that people said that he did enter some of the
21 rooms and that he repeated one and the same thing, and that was that they
22 would all be returned to Vukovar where they would stand trial.
23 MS. DENNEHY: Can I now ask that Exhibit 4809.6 - that's at
24 tab 18 - be shown.
25 Q. Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see a video played on the screen in
1 front of you.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Goran Hadzic: This is the first
4 session of the government held in our future capitol of our Serb region
5 of Slavonija, Baranja, and Western Srem. Regarding the conclusions,
6 apart from the ones related to the mobilisation of life and establish of
7 more or less normal situation, there is one basic conclusion: And that
8 is the Ustasha prisoners with blood on their hands must not leave the
9 territory of the Serb region of Slavonija, Baranja, and Western Srem.
10 They cannot be driven to Serbia since Serbia is the state which is not at
11 war. Also the troops that assisted in the capturing, those were not
12 soldiers. They were the paramilitary formations. They can only be put
13 on trial by the people here, that is the people of our Serb region, which
14 is recognised, which has its court. We even have a second-instance
15 court. The third-instance might eventually be on the federal level, the
16 Yugoslav level, but we have our region court and our municipal court.
17 Consequently, we have agreed with the military authorities that the
18 Ustasha remain in some of our camps here in the vicinity of Vukovar.
19 Since one group was already taken to Sremska Mitrovica, I undertook the
20 task to return these people here, if they can be named people at all, to
21 return them and to have them put on trial to find out which of them are
23 "Journalist: How do you estimate the total number of those
24 members of the Croatian paramilitary formations? There is different data
25 available, two hundred surrendered two nights ago, approximately 1.000
1 today in the Borovo complex. What number are we talking about?
2 "Goran Hadzic: I believe that the number is close to 3.000 of
3 mainly uniformed Ustashas, although there are still many hiding among the
4 civilians. However, there are many honest people there as well. Our
5 primary task is to investigate everything and not to let anyone who is
6 not guilty to get hurt or be harassed. It is better to have one culprit
7 slip through than to harm someone innocent. That is our task. There is
8 a law and police and all bodies here. So we will work on preventing any
9 persecution of the innocent people.
10 "Journalist: How is the establishment of the civilian rule in
11 Vukovar going on, briefly?
12 "Goran Hadzic: Well, today we made the first step. We have been
13 preparing for this event."
14 MS. DENNEHY:
15 Q. Mr. Culic, do you recognise the man who appeared in the video in
16 front of you?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Who is the man that appeared in the video?
19 A. Goran Hadzic.
20 Q. And when Mr. Hadzic in the video said:
21 "I undertook the task of bringing those people back, if we can
22 call them people, we shall bring them back and put them on trial and
23 pronounce the guilty parties."
24 Are those sentiments similar to those that you heard from
25 Pero Gojon and Josip Tomasic when they heard Hadzic speak at
1 Sremska Mitrovica?
2 A. When Pero Gojon said that Goran Hadzic had entered their room,
3 did not mention bad words being used. But Josip Tomasic also told me
4 that he had been called names, insulted, and that he had told him that he
5 personally would bring him back to Vukovar to be put on trial.
6 Pero -- Tomasic was in the isolation cell, whereas Pero Gojon was in a
7 big room with another hundred or so people listening to that
9 MS. DENNEHY: Can I ask that this 65 ter 4809.6 be admitted into
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It shall be assigned Exhibit P1417. Thank you.
13 MS. DENNEHY:
14 Q. Mr. Culic, what happened to you on the 22nd of May, 1992?
15 A. On the 22nd of May, there was an exchange. At 3.00 in the
16 morning, military policemen entered. We got up with our heads bowed. We
17 were not supposed to look at them. And then they called our names. The
18 names of those of us who were supposed to go home. My name was called.
19 I took my belongings. We got into the hallway, and they prepared us to
20 enter the courtyard single file. They lined us up against the wall, and
21 then again they called our names to see whether we were all there. We
22 got on buses but we were first searched to see if I had any scribblings,
23 drawings, anything written down. I had a wedding ring. I hid it under
24 my tongue to make sure that they didn't take it away.
25 We got on buses and then we were slowly driven to Lipovac to be
1 exchanged. That's where we were indeed exchanged. And then we crossed
2 over to Croatia. That was the happiest day of my life. Whenever I think
3 of that day, I feel that sense of relief in my soul and in my heart.
4 Q. Mr. Culic, how has your detention affected your health?
5 A. It had a huge effect. I changed. But I still have to function.
6 I still have to rejoice in the little life that I have left. I was
7 imprisoned while I was still young. Those were supposed to be the most
8 beautiful months of my life. I feel regret, a deep feeling of regret
9 that I had to suffer that lot. And if I suffer some health problems,
10 people who surround me do not understand -- my children, my wife, they
11 don't understand what I went through. For example, I watch a movie and
12 all of a sudden I -- I start thinking about things. Sometimes I even
13 think that I must have done something wrong to suffer like that. I tend
14 to forgive everybody who ill-treated me because I am a good person, but
15 my biggest crime is that I love my homeland. I also suffered
16 financially. My house was burnt down. Those people that I knew before,
17 they were no longer there. The situation is different. We have an
18 independent and free Croatian state, but the political situation is such
19 that I am not happy. I am not satisfied. I am concerned for the future
20 of my homeland. There are so many things that I could tell you. This
21 was just some of the things.
22 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President. That concludes my
23 questions for now.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Dennehy.
25 Mr. Culic.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Are you able to continue?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am. Yes.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.
6 MR. GOSNELL: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:
8 Q. Mr. Culic, my name is Christopher Gosnell. I represent
9 Mr. Hadzic here. I am going to have a few questions for you, not very
10 many. If at any time my questions are not clear or you wish me to
11 clarify or elaborate, please ask me to do that and I will do so. Do you
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And if at any time you wish to take a break, please let me know,
15 let Mr. President know, and I am sure that can be accommodated. Do you
16 understand that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Now you at the end of your testimony just described Pero Gojon
19 and Josip Tomasic describing the words of Mr. Hadzic to them. Am I
20 correct in understanding that it was Mr. Tomasic himself who told you
21 what Mr. Hadzic had said; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And no one else told you what words were spoken to Mr. Tomasic on
24 that occasion; is that right?
25 A. I heard from some other people as well, but I don't know them as
1 well as I know Tomasic. I knew him from before the war. I knew him
2 during the war and after the war. He lived on the same street as me.
3 Q. The only person who told you that Mr. Hadzic used vulgar language
4 was Mr. Tomasic; is that right?
5 A. Only Mr. Tomasic.
6 Q. And in Mr. Gojon's case, he described a situation where
7 Mr. Hadzic enters a room not only with Mr. Gojon but also with other
8 inmates; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you were shown a video of Mr. Hadzic speaking. And I'd like
11 to ask you whether, in particular, you heard anyone tell you, any of your
12 fellow inmates tell you, that Mr. Hadzic had said, for example, that
13 there are many honest people here as well. Did he say that to the
14 inmates from what you were told?
15 A. No, he did not.
16 Q. And did any of your fellow inmates tell you that he had said:
17 "It's better to let one culprit slip through than to harm someone who is
19 A. This is not the way we talked. People only said that he was seen
20 in Mitrovica, that he entered some of the rooms. We didn't qualify him
21 as being either good or bad. And when I say that, I mean Mr. Hadzic.
22 Q. Did you ever hear whether any of your fellow inmates at
23 Sremska Mitrovica were ever tried by the Serb authorities in Vukovar?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You testified at page 23 earlier today that Ivica Banovic and a
1 certain Filkovic went to Borovo Selo to negotiate with what you described
2 as "a highly ranking JNA officer and Arkan." Do you remember that
4 A. I remember that I said that. I saw that on HTV and on Novi Sad
5 television. There is a video-clip of that. That was recorded.
6 Q. Do you know when that occurred?
7 A. Sir, I came here to The Hague Tribunal. I did not prepare myself
8 specially. But this is the truth. I was in prison but that was on the
9 19th. In the evening, they asked for people who would go to negotiate.
10 I didn't know when at the time. I didn't know that they we want to
11 Borovo Selo. I figured it on TV later on that they went to Borovo Selo,
12 that they were there at that moment, and that the three of them went. I
13 know that. I know Ivica Banovic personally, and I know Mr. Filkovic, I
14 know him personally, and as for that policeman from Varazdin, I don't
15 know him. I know the other two, however.
16 Q. That's fine, sir. And just so you understand, I am not
17 suggesting to you that this isn't true. I simply wanted to clarify the
18 date. And you've done that. Thank you very much.
19 Do you know anything more about this meeting that happened
20 between the representatives of the Croats side and Mr. Arkan and the
21 highly ranking JNA officer?
22 A. I know when they were discussing the negotiations they mentioned
23 Banovic, Filkovic, and that policeman from Varazdin. Later on I did not
24 see them. But I know that they went on to negotiate. I did not see them
25 later. I spoke to them after I had come back from the camp. That
1 meeting exists as a video-clip that was aired on television.
2 Q. I have not had benefit of seeing that video. Can you help me
3 understand or please tell us what was said during that meeting?
4 A. I heard the sound on television, but we could not hear the
5 conversation itself. But it was said that the representatives of the
6 Croatian defence council had arrived to negotiate the terms of surrender.
7 That's all I heard. I could not hear the exact words of their
9 Q. And was Arkan sitting together with this highly ranked JNA
10 officer during this negotiation?
11 A. Arkan was sitting a bit to the side, and the person who
12 negotiated was the JNA officer. He could be seen in conversation with
13 the representatives of the Croatian army, those lads of ours. And you
14 can see that in the video-clip.
15 Q. And aside from this highly ranking JNA officer and Arkan, was
16 there anyone else from the Serb side?
17 A. I can't remember. I really can't remember whether there was
18 anybody else. Maybe there was another person or perhaps not. I was more
19 interested in -- in seeing my own friends who were negotiating on our
21 Q. Earlier today you described the moment when you were in the
22 process of surrendering from the Borovo Selo shoe factory, and do I
23 understand correctly that you had a conversation with a JNA colonel or
24 lieutenant-colonel on that occasion?
25 A. I started a conversation. A young tank commander, a lieutenant,
1 came on his own and entered the courtyard. We gathered around him. He
2 gave us cigarettes. And then I asked him -- or, rather, I told him that
3 there was a fire cistern that was cleaned and all the wounded were taken
4 away, but there was another cistern full of water. I asked him to allow
5 me to go and fetch it, because there were a lot of people in the
6 basement. They were thirsty. There was no water. That was the way to
7 get water to him.
8 Q. You testified at page 23 today that as you were in front of the
9 shoe factory, you said:
10 "There were all sorts of formations but their numbers were not
12 And I believe that in using the word "formations" you were
13 referring to paramilitary formations. Is that a correct understanding on
14 my part?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you said, "... their numbers were not large."
17 Were there more JNA forces there at that time than the
18 paramilitary forces?
19 A. I can't answer. I was not paying attention. I was afraid. It
20 was not easy, you know. I was not interested in numbers. I just tried
21 to answer the best I could from recollection.
22 Q. And you do recollect that at some point there was a
23 lieutenant-colonel from the JNA who came and spoke to you about
24 surrendering. Do you remember that?
25 A. The lieutenant-colonel, accompanied by two or three military
1 policemen, came to a gate leading to the Borovo complex. We were in the
2 yard within the compound. We approached him, but I didn't speak, I was
3 only present. Zeljko Jukic asked him what was to become of us. As they
4 spoke they realised that they knew each other, because Zeljko Jukic was
5 under him when he was serving his compulsory military service in
6 Novi Sad.
7 MR. GOSNELL: Can I kindly request the assistance of the
8 Prosecution with a video that I know they have on their computer and they
9 have kindly offered to assist. And I would ask that P1413, which is
10 65 ter 4799.7, be put up. And we can go straight to second 35 on this
11 video, please.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. GOSNELL: If we could pause it there.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. GOSNELL: I am not sure whether it's possible, but if we were
16 to go to 47:99.7, which I think is about a 36-second clip. That might
17 make it easier.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. GOSNELL:
20 Q. Is that the lieutenant-colonel who spoke to you?
21 A. No. That's not the man.
22 Q. Did you see this man?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know who this man is?
25 A. I have no idea.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. GOSNELL: I'm done with that video.
3 Q. Now, sir, you've described for us in very great detail the --
4 your movement from the shoe factory to Stajicevo and then Nis and then
5 Sremska Mitrovica, and I just for a moment want to ask you about the
6 buses that you were transported on.
7 If I can just put a question to you, sir, it might make it a
8 little bit easier. Am I right in thinking you were transported on what
9 you describe as civilian buses between the factory and Stajicevo?
10 A. Since I --
11 Q. Sir, just before you go into a long description, it could be
12 easier. I will just put very simple question. And if you wish, and if
13 it's possible, you don't need to recapitulate your previous testimony.
14 You can just say "yes" or "no," if you're comfortable with that.
15 A. Well, I did observe that for the most part they had civilian
16 license plates. But near Stajicevo, half of them had military licenses
17 plates. Since I was driver when I was doing my military service, I am
18 familiar with what their license plates are like.
19 Q. Let's just start for the moment with the buses that took you from
20 the Borovo Selo factory to Stajicevo. Do I understand that those were by
21 all appearances civilian buses?
22 A. They were civilian vehicles, judging by their license plates.
23 Q. And by their paint -- and by the paint job as well?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the drivers were civilian?
1 A. The drivers were civilian but the two military policemen weren't.
2 Q. Well, that was going to be my next question. Do I understand
3 correctly that there -- you had a civilian driver and then you had two
4 JNA military policemen escorting you on the bus?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were there two JNA APCs escorting the convoy of buses?
7 A. There was an APC ahead, at the head of the motorcade, and there
8 was one at the rear that followed us but I don't know how far it followed
9 us because they were afraid that fire might be open at us as we were
10 passing through Serb villages.
11 Q. And the one journey that you didn't describe in detail in your
12 itinerary during this time was the journey between the Stajicevo prison
13 and the Nis prison. Am I correct in understanding that you were again
14 placed on a civilian bus for the journey between Stajicevo and Nis?
15 A. Perhaps I forgot to mention some things, but just as we travelled
16 to Stajicevo we travelled to Nis. There were two military policemen as
17 well. Now, I think that on our trip to Nis, half of the buses were
18 military because they had military license plates.
19 Q. So does that mean that half of the buses had military license
20 plates and half of the buses had civilian license plates?
21 A. Well, I don't know about half. I may have seen one or two
22 license plates that were military. I didn't really keep count. I didn't
23 think plates were important. But I did see that so I know.
24 Q. The percentages, indeed, are not important. Some of the buses
25 had civilian license plates and some of the buses many military license
1 plates; correct?
2 A. [In English] Yes.
3 Q. And you again had military policemen inside the bus escorting
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the drivers again, were they civilian?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then the third bus journey, from Nis --
9 A. Excuse --
10 Q. Sorry.
11 A. [Interpretation] Excuse me. My bus had a civilian driver but I
12 can't vouch for the others. I know that the driver driving my bus was
13 civilian. I don't know about the others. I didn't dare look, and I'm
14 not a hundred per cent sure how many there were.
15 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And then the third bus journey
16 from Nis to Sremska Mitrovica. Do again we have -- well, first of all,
17 did the buses appear -- by their appearance, did they appear to be
18 civilian buses?
19 A. The buses appear to be civilian. It was night-time when we were
20 boarding the buses. It was morning but it was still dark.
21 Q. And again you have civilian drivers and JNA military police
22 escorts inside the bus; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know whether and when your family was informed that you
25 were being detained?
1 A. They were aware of my detention and they knew that I had been
2 wounded. It was reported in the papers that I was wounded as a fire
3 fighter. I don't know how that information came to be published in the
4 papers. They only knew that I had been wounded and it was only later,
5 two or three days later, that they became aware of the fact that I was in
6 the camp.
7 Q. And you've described your interrogation in the Nis prison. And I
8 won't ask you to -- to describe that again. I just have one detail that
9 I would like to clarify with you. During the seven or eight hours that
10 you were being, in effect, beaten, was the interrogator doing the beating
11 continuously or was it intermittent?
12 A. It was intermittent. He was present in my room and would then go
13 to other rooms. There were three more rooms. And he was taking turns.
14 And then he would come back and he was -- he seemed to have been looking
15 to get some sort of truth out of us and I. Can I repeat what I just
16 said? Can I repeat my answer?
17 Q. I think something at the end may have been missed. So yes,
18 please feel free.
19 A. My interrogation, that last long interrogation, unfolded this
20 way: There were first the beatings, then I was asked to write a
21 statement. Then he went out of the room and would be away for 15 minutes
22 or half an hour. There were three of them and they took turns. It's
23 very difficult for me to explain this now. At one point there were be
24 three of them, then there would be two of them, then only one would
25 return. So they circled from room to room, but there was a lot of
1 beating in between.
2 Q. Can I take you back to the siege or the battle of Vukovar. When,
3 to your recollection, would you say that the battle or the siege actually
5 A. The battle for Vukovar started on the 2nd of May, 1991, when the
6 massacre against the Croatian police occurred in Borovo Selo.
7 Q. From then onwards in your -- to your recollection, were
8 barricades set up by Croatian forces to control access to the city?
9 A. As far as I know and as far as I followed and was able to follow,
10 it was first the rebel Serbs who erected barricades in the villages
11 surrounding Vukovar where they were in the majority. They were the first
12 ones to make these barricades.
13 Q. Well, sir, I'm not interested in who was first. I'm just
14 interested at this stage in trying to understand when those barricades
15 went up on the Croatian side. Do you say that it was after the incident
16 in early May in Borovo Selo?
17 A. Sir, the barricades were erected on two occasions. The Serbs
18 erected the barricades for the first time and then removed them. I can't
19 tell you when it was that they erected them for the second time.
20 Q. Let me make sure that I'm clear. I am not interested in the Serb
21 barricades at all. I am just interested in knowing when it was that the
22 Croatian barricades went up to control access to Vukovar. Do you know
23 when that was?
24 A. Sir, I was a driver in a professional fire brigade. I had
25 30 head of sheep at home. I was busy all the time. When the Croats
1 placed the barricades is something I don't know. Nobody talked to me
2 about it. None of the Croats ever consulted me. Perhaps they erected
3 those at Mitnica but not at Brsadin or perhaps at this place but not at
4 the other. I don't know.
5 Q. And can you remind us when it was that you started to
6 continuously carry a gun as part of an organised defence of the city of
8 A. I began to continuously carry a gun after the 5th of October when
9 I left Vukovar and my work-place. I was no longer able to appear for
10 work. There were shells landing. It was a long way away. Things grew
11 more and more difficult. And I stayed at the line near my home. We
12 stood guard there. That was when I continuously carried weapons because
13 I was at the front line.
14 Q. So you weren't doing so at any time in August or September 1991?
15 A. I was occasionally, but when I went to work I didn't carry a
16 weapon. I would only carry one when I was at home at the front line, at
17 Cerge [phoen].
18 Q. And when did you start to occasionally do that? When I say "do
19 that," I mean, when did you start to occasionally assist in an organised
20 fashion defending the city of Vukovar?
21 A. I began carrying sometime in June or July. I am not sure.
22 Q. And after the battle for Vukovar started, were there offers by
23 the JNA of terms of surrender to the Croatian forces there?
24 A. I don't know about that, but would that we -- would that they had
25 offered this.
1 Q. Well, you -- the last part of your answer is:
2 "... would that they had offered this."
3 Are you suggesting that terms of surrender were not offered by
4 the JNA during the battle of Vukovar?
5 A. From my understanding of your question, you said at the start
6 that they offered a surrender. I don't know. They were offering the
7 surrender near the end, over the loudspeaker. But in the area where I
8 was, nobody was offering us anything.
9 Q. Well, let me be more precise: Between July and November 1991,
10 prior to the ultimate surrender of Croat forces in Vukovar, had the JNA
11 offered terms of surrender to Croat forces there?
12 A. I don't know. I wasn't a commander. I don't know. I wasn't
13 involved in that. I was just an ordinary person there.
14 Q. But even as an ordinary person, wouldn't regular infantry
15 soldiers have been informed about such matters?
16 A. Honourable sir, there were so many shells landing that the only
17 thing that mattered to me was find refugee in the shelter. There was no
18 communication, no contact. It was very difficult to hear about many of
19 these things.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy.
21 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, I would like to make clear: The
22 witness has noted that he was not part of any Croat forces prior to the
23 5th of October and the Defence is suggesting that he may have been. The
24 witness has said that until the 5th of October, he was part of the fire
25 brigade and nothing else in that regard.
1 MR. GOSNELL: Well, that's a matter of interpretation of what the
2 witness said, and I would disagree with that interpretation.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. GOSNELL:
5 Q. You never heard anyone from the JNA side calling with megaphones
6 for surrender of Croat forces at any time between July and November 1991
7 prior to the ultimate surrender?
8 A. I didn't, and even if I had, it was not my decision to make. It
9 was the decision to be made by the command in Vukovar, wherever they were
10 over there.
11 Q. I fully understand that. But was there any discussion amongst
12 soldiers that maybe surrender would be a good idea under the
14 A. I don't know. We didn't discuss it. Simply, I can't answer that
15 question. I don't know.
16 Q. Did you ever hear any civilians express the wish to leave
18 A. All of us wanted to leave, but we weren't able to because we were
19 blocked from all sides. We were afraid.
20 Q. Did you ever hear whether there were any discussions about a
21 cease-fire or some kind of truce to allow civilians to leave?
22 A. I didn't hear that. I didn't listen to the radio. I didn't
23 watch the television. There was no electricity. There was no running
24 water. There was just the water from wells. And being the ordinary
25 person that I was and in the area where I was, I didn't hear that.
1 Q. Sir, thank you very much for coming here and for your testimony.
2 MR. GOSNELL: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
4 Is there re-direct, Ms. Dennehy?
5 MS. DENNEHY: No, Mr. President. There is not.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: There is no re-direct. Thank you.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I have a question for you,
9 Witness. After your detention in Stajicevo, you were transferred to the
10 penitentiary centre in Nis and you arrived there in the middle of the
12 Today, on the record, on page 49, line 10 through 12, you provide
13 a precision. You say that the military police who guarded you, on the
14 following day, gave you military clothes, the SMB or the olive-drab
15 uniforms of the former JNA and that they shaved your head. And then on
16 the 20th of February, 1992, when you left Nis to go to Sremska Mitrovica,
17 you had to return your military police uniforms and you had to put on
18 civilian clothes. You will find that on today's transcript.
19 My question is this: Why were you given the military uniforms of
20 the JNA to wear while you were detained in Nis?
21 A. I really don't know why. I never gave it a second thought. My
22 only thought was to leave that place at least half normal, to be able to
23 go on functioning as a human being. That was all that was on my mind, to
24 be honest.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. In the detention
1 centre -- or, rather, in all the other detention centres where you were
2 detained, was the practice the same? Did they give you military uniforms
3 to wear everywhere?
4 A. No, they did not. No.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Culic, thank you very much for coming to
7 The Hague and assist the Tribunal. This is the end of your testimony.
8 You're now released as a witness. The Court Usher will escort you out of
9 court, and we wish you a safe journey home.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday,
15 8th day of March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.