Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3402

 1                           Thursday, 7 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

11             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

12     Prosecution.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours, Alexis Demirdjian

14     for the Prosecution, with Douglas Stringer; our case manager,

15     Indah Susanti; as well as our legal intern, Robert Goodwin.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We are pleased to see you back, Mr. Zivanovic.

21     We hope you are well.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Witness 080, the witness may be brought in, in

24     closed session.  Thank you.

25                           [Closed session]


Page 3403

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 8     you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             Good morning to you, sir.  We will start cross-examination now.

11             Mr. Zivanovic.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

13                           WITNESS:  GH-080 [Resumed]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   My name is Zoran Zivanovic, and in these proceedings I represent

18     Goran Hadzic.  I am going to put some questions to you, and they all stem

19     from the testimony you provided yesterday and the day before yesterday.

20     I'll start with the period leading up to the beginning of armed conflicts

21     in Vukovar.

22             You said that in 1984 you served in the army; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes, it is.

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.


Page 3404

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

 3        Q.   And after that, would you just please confirm whether I'm right,

 4     you were given a war assignment in case there was a war or a military

 5     maneuver?  After you served in the army, you were assigned to an

 6     assignment?

 7        A.   No, not specifically.

 8        Q.   I noticed, as a matter of fact, that at one point you said that

 9     you were a reservist together with a colleague of yours with whom we are

10     not going to name.  That's why I put that question to you.  I thought

11     that you were a member of a reserve unit of the JNA before the war

12     started?

13        A.   I participated in military maneuvers, and that's how I was

14     connected with that person or those persons.

15        Q.   And now please tell me when you attended that military maneuver.

16     You were a member of a unit, right, and that unit was a reserve unit of

17     the JNA.  Am I right?

18        A.   Yes, you are.

19        Q.   Do you know that there was at the time the so-called

20     Territorial Defence of Vukovar?

21        A.   The Territorial Defence was a part of the JNA.  That's how things

22     were at the time.

23        Q.   Can we then say that they all wore the same uniforms?  There was

24     not much difference between the Territorial Defence units and the reserve

25     units.

Page 3405

 1        A.   Well, by and large I can agree with you on that.

 2        Q.   At that time in the Territorial Defence units and in the reserve

 3     forces of the JNA, there were members of all nations and they were all

 4     residents of Vukovar?

 5        A.   Yes, that's how things were.

 6        Q.   When the crisis started and led up to the war, did the

 7     Territorial Defence units and the reserve units of the JNA disintegrate

 8     due to their mixed composition?  They did not stick together, as it were.

 9        A.   Those possibilities are now being psychologically reconsidered.

10        Q.   At the beginning of the war, did the units remain the same as

11     they were in 1986 or 1987?  Did they continue being the same in 1991?

12        A.   When the new state emerged things changed in all aspects,

13     including the military organisation.

14        Q.   And what happened to the units that you were a member of?  I am

15     talking about that reserve unit that you were a member of?  Did it remain

16     the same, was it transformed; hence, you joined another unit?

17        A.   I repeat:  We were only called when there were military

18     maneuvers; i.e., we did not have a full and permanent assignment.

19        Q.   Very well.  When you attended a military maneuver you were a

20     member of a unit, were you not?

21        A.   We were all members of the reserve force.

22        Q.   Every time when you were called to attend a manoeuvre, were you

23     always a member of one in the same unit?  Did you always attend with the

24     same people?

25        A.   I just told you it was a changeable form, which means that not

Page 3406

 1     all the people are always the same.

 2        Q.   And now I'm going to put just a couple of questions to you that

 3     relate to Ovcara and your surrender or your arrest.  The way I understood

 4     you was this:  Up to the moment when a soldier of the JNA appeared in the

 5     hangar at Ovcara and took your details, nobody had created any lists, for

 6     example, in the hospital or in the JNA barracks while you were sitting on

 7     the buses and waiting?

 8        A.   That's correct.  Nobody made a list of our names.  I was on a

 9     list of the wounded.

10        Q.   Just one more question.  During that period of time from the

11     arrival of the JNA at the hospital to the moment when you were

12     transported to Ovcara and from Ovcara, did you see JNA members with white

13     belts?

14        A.   I believe that those people took us out from the hangar, but I am

15     not sure at this moment.

16        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And now I will move on to the interrogation in Sid.  You said

20     that you were brought to a police station, to the civilian police station

21     in Sid and that you were interrogated there by a civilian.  Since you

22     were in the civilian police station and since you were interrogated by a

23     civilian, is that why you concluded that he was a SUP inspector?

24        A.   Yes, precisely.  That was my personal conclusion.  He did not

25     introduce himself.  He did not wear a police uniform.  Since he came to

Page 3407

 1     the premises, I thought that he was an inspector because that's how he

 2     comported himself and he interrogated me.

 3        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I apologise.  I will repeat the question.  On that occasion did

 7     he tell you -- when he said that he had seen you at Ovcara, did he tell

 8     you where he had seen you, in the hangar, in front of the bus, on the

 9     bus?  Did he tell you anything more precise than that?

10        A.   No, nothing more precise than that.

11        Q.   And now just one more thing, I need your clarification.  You told

12     him that you didn't know anything about Ovcara, that you didn't know him,

13     that you had not seen him before.  What I would like to know is this:  Is

14     it really true that you did not see him at Ovcara, that you didn't notice

15     him, or perhaps you did but you kept quite about that for understandable

16     reasons?

17        A.   First of all, I didn't say that I didn't know anything about

18     Ovcara.  I just denied the knowledge of the number of people who were

19     killed at Ovcara.  In that conversation when we stopped talking, that was

20     that, and we did not discuss the place where he saw me or where I saw

21     him.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  There is a lot of background noise in the

23     headphones.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   However, you denied that you saw him at Ovcara and he claimed

Page 3408

 1     that he had seen you?

 2        A.   I don't know who he saw and where he saw them.

 3        Q.   While you were at Ovcara, you really did not see him or remember

 4     him as having been there?

 5        A.   No, I did not.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Just one more thing that I am interested in and it is about the

10     blockade of the JNA barracks in Vukovar.  Do you know why the barracks

11     was blockaded, why there was no electricity, why there was no water, why

12     the supply of food was interrupted for JNA members who were there?

13        A.   No, I don't know that.  As far as I know, the barracks had a

14     permanent communication with one of the sides to the conflict.

15        Q.   Well, I suppose that it could remain having those permanent

16     contacts via radio?

17        A.   I'm not talking about the physical blockade of the barracks

18     because that blockade was one-side as it were.

19        Q.   That would be all, Witness.  I have no further questions for you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.

21             Mr. Demirdjian, re-direct?

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No questions, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Witness, I have two small questions for you.

25                           Questioned by the Court:


Page 3409

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yesterday, you told us about your family being

 2     prevented from return to Vukovar in August 1991, and you said that your

 3     family was prevented from returning to Vukovar at a place called Kutina.

 4     Can you please tell us who or on whose authority the convoy was prevented

 5     from returning, and how did you know this?

 6        A.   I assume that the convoys were stopped by the MUP and other

 7     bodies of that executive power because the shelling of Vukovar started,

 8     and I heard that over the phone because there was still phone

 9     communications working at the time.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  [Microphone not activated]

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry.  You also stated, sir, it was on

13     5 March, page 3339 of the transcript, that you were transported from the

14     hospital in Vukovar to the JNA barracks in Vukovar, and that you saw

15     there were reservists and soldiers at the barracks when you arrived.  I

16     suppose that when you said "soldiers," you mean JNA soldiers; right?

17        A.   Well, yes.  Those soldiers were JNA members.  But there were also

18     reservists as members of the JNA, so it was a joint form of resistance.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And how did you make the difference between

20     reservists and soldiers?  I mean, did you -- did they wear -- did they

21     have different uniforms or insignia, whatever?

22        A.   Well, this was precisely what was difficult.  It was very

23     difficult to say who was a regular soldier and who was a reservist, and

24     especially that applied to those who had different uniforms or partially

25     different uniforms, and that was an additional difficulty in making a

Page 3410

 1     distinction between them.  But, as a matter of fact, it was a joint form

 2     of people who worked in concert, they had their commanders, they had

 3     their generals [as interpreted] of supervision and organisation, and in

 4     my mind there was no doubt about that.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             If there are no other questions arising from this, then,

 7     Mr. Witness, this brings your testimony to the -- your testimony to an

 8     end.  We thank you very much for your --

 9             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I just notice one unclear point in the

11     transcript.  The witness said that "they had different channels of

12     supervision and organisation," and here is "generals of supervision."  It

13     is line 19, page 8.  There, "generals," he said "channels."

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can you confirm that, Mr. Witness, that you said

15     that "they had their channels of supervision and organisation?"  Was that

16     what you said?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the gist of that was that

18     there were different channels through which they exercised supervision.

19     I believe that they were supervised from different sides, but I don't

20     think that it is up to me to provide more comment on that.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note that the witness did say

22     "channels" in his first answers.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Witness, we thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the

25     Tribunal.  You are now released as a witness.  The Court Usher will


Page 3411

 1     escort you out of court as soon as we are in closed session, and we wish

 2     you a safe journey home.  Thank you very much.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [Closed session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

11     you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

13             Mr. Demirdjian, your -- the next witness is a viva voce witness,

14     no protective measures?

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I believe that's correct, Your Honours.  However

16     Ms. Dennehy will be coming in.  She will be the attorney taking next

17     witness, so I will excuse myself.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Okay.

19             Mr. Registrar, we don't need a break for the setting?  No.  It's

20     okay.  Thank you.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As soon as counsel for the Prosecution is here,

23     we will bring the witness in.

24             MR. STRINGER:  That's my assumption, Your Honour.  I'd actually

25     expected the personnel to be here from 9.00, but that hasn't happened,


Page 3412

 1     unfortunately.

 2             Your Honour, before the witnesses brought in, just to let the

 3     record reflect that the Prosecution is now represented by

 4     Ms. Muireann Dennehy and our legal intern, August Sommerfeld, who just

 5     entered courtroom.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness may be brought in.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Ms. Dennehy.  Glad to see you up

 9     and running so soon in the morning.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I apologise for my

11     delay.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me in a

13     language you understand?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the

16     Tribunal.  Can you state your first and last name, your date of birth,

17     and your ethnicity, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the

19     24th of November, 1955, in Vukovar.  My name is Branko Culic.  I am Croat

20     by ethnicity.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to make the solemn

22     declaration by which witnesses comitted themselves to tell the truth.  I

23     point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalties of

24     perjury should you give false or untruthful information to the Tribunal.

25             Would you now mistake the solemn declaration, please.


Page 3413

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  BRANKO CULIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 6             Ms. Dennehy, please proceed.

 7             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8                           Examination by Ms. Dennehy:

 9        Q.   Mr. Culic, can you hear me in a language that you understand?

10        A.   I can.

11        Q.   Mr. Culic, can you please tell the Court where you live at the

12     moment?

13        A.   I live in Vukovar at present.

14        Q.   What part of Vukovar do you live in?  What part specifically?

15        A.   In the area which is on Budzak Street, near the Dzerge forest, on

16     the road to Vinkovci.

17        Q.   And would you describe this area as near or close to

18     Borovo Naselje?

19        A.   The local commune I live in belongs to Vukovar but is on the

20     boundary with Borovo Naselje.

21        Q.   And how long have you lived in this area for?

22        A.   Ever since I was born and up until the homeland war in 1991.

23        Q.   Can you please tell me what you did after you finished school?

24        A.   I worked as a driver for the Cazmatrans transport company which

25     transported passengers.  This was a company that was stationed in

Page 3414

 1     Vukovar.

 2        Q.   And where did you receive your qualifications as a driver?

 3        A.   I obtained my qualifications in 1974 and 1975 when I did my

 4     compulsory military service, and then I got the B-category license later

 5     on in Vukovar.

 6        Q.   And after working as a driver for the Cazmatrans company, what

 7     was your job after that?

 8        A.   I retrained and became the fire fighter and driver of the fire

 9     engine, and in 1989 I joined the fire brigade in Vukovar in that same

10     capacity.

11        Q.   Before joining the Vukovar fire brigade, did you ever work as a

12     bus driver?

13        A.   Yes, I did.  I was a bus driver before I joined the professional

14     fire brigade.

15        Q.   And what villages did you drive the bus in?

16        A.   When I started driving the bus, I covered the Vukovar-Pacetin

17     route for six years.

18        Q.   And when did you first meet Goran Hadzic, the accused?

19        A.   I met Goran Hadzic in 1980.  He came to my house to see my dog, a

20     German shepherd who was of a very good pedigree.

21        Q.   And did you ever have occasion to go to Pacetin and see

22     Goran Hadzic there?

23        A.   Since I had that bus route to cover, I had time to take off my

24     duty and go to his home and see his German shepherd that he had at home.

25        Q.   And what was your involvement with the football teams in the area

Page 3415

 1     at that time?

 2        A.   On some days I was assigned to drive the footballers of the

 3     Pacetin Sloga team when they had matches away from home, and that would

 4     normally be on Sundays.

 5        Q.   And was Goran Hadzic part of that football team?

 6        A.   He was a member of that football team.  He was a footballer.

 7        Q.   Now moving onto the Croatian declaration of independence, how did

 8     that declaration of independence in 1991 increase the tensions between

 9     Serbs and Croats in the area that you were living?

10        A.   As far as my understanding goes and as far as I was able to

11     follow, when the League of Communists of Yugoslavia disintegrated in

12     Belgrade, the various republics of Yugoslavia saw democratic processes

13     begin, leading to the emergence of new political parties.

14        Q.   And did you observe any tensions between Serbs and Croats at the

15     time?

16        A.   There were no tensions before the emergence of new political

17     parties with their respective platforms.

18        Q.   And what practical changes did you see in the police force as a

19     result of the changes that took place at the time?

20        A.   When the HDZ won in Croatia, I heard from the people I lived with

21     that some of the Serbs refused to wear a chequer-board as a symbol on

22     their hat or cap.

23        Q.   And around this time, did you know of any barricades that were

24     being set up in the area?

25        A.   The barricades emerged in the spring of 1991 - was it April or

Page 3416

 1     May, I'm not sure - but that was first in Serbian villages.  They were

 2     the first ones to erect barricades.

 3        Q.   And what were the names of those Serbian villages that erected

 4     barricades?

 5        A.   Those were the villages with the majority Serb population,

 6     Brsadin, Borovo Selo, Bobota, Pacetin, Negoslavci.

 7        Q.   And who patrolled those barricades in the villages that you've

 8     just mentioned?

 9        A.   Now, whether there were some groups of people in specific

10     villages who took upon that role, I don't know.  At any rate, they were

11     Serbs and they manned these barricades and were armed.

12        Q.   And were these local Serbs or were they Serbs from elsewhere?

13        A.   From what I know, they were from elsewhere.  The Novi Sad TV

14     broadcast footages of the barricades manned by the Serbs and I learnt

15     that there was a certain number of them who had come from Serbia.

16        Q.   And did you have a term for those Serbs who came from Serbia in

17     particular?

18        A.   Amongst ourselves we would say that the Chetniks from Serbia had

19     arrived.

20        Q.   And can you please tell the Court what happened to your

21     brother-in-law at one of these Serb barricades?

22        A.   Zlatko Rihter, from Celija, a small Croat village, was headed to

23     Pacetin to see the veterinarian technician because his cow had had calves

24     and he wanted him to visit his farm.  He wasn't aware of the fact that

25     there were barricades.  And at the barricades on the way to Pacetin, on

Page 3417

 1     the edge of Pacetin, he was stopped and he was threatened.  One of them I

 2     knew for sure but I can't recall his name, he placed the point of his

 3     rifle in his mouth.

 4        Q.   Do you know who was responsible for erecting the Serb barricades

 5     around Vukovar?

 6        A.   I don't know that.

 7        Q.   And can you please tell the Court how did the Croats react to the

 8     Borovo Selo incident in May 1991?

 9        A.   When on the 2nd of May, 1991, a massacre occurred in Borovo Selo

10     against the Croatian police, among those of us Croats who were in

11     Borovo Naselje, from what I could gather, fear spread.

12        Q.   And what did the Croats in the area do as a result of this fear?

13        A.   The various local communes started organising themselves.  Or,

14     rather, the Croats started organising themselves in these local communes,

15     and slowly they would stand guard on the streets.  And I can vouch for my

16     local commune.

17        Q.   And when say the local communes starting organising themselves,

18     what do you mean specifically?

19        A.   What I meant was that they were afraid and they wanted to check

20     the movement of people to know who precisely was passing down the street.

21     We were afraid of the Serb rebellion.

22        Q.   Now you told us earlier that you worked as a fire fighter

23     Vukovar, and can you please tell me where did you work during the summer

24     of 1991 until the 5th of October, 1991?

25        A.   I apologise.  Can you please repeat your question?

Page 3418

 1        Q.   Where did you work after the Borovo Selo incident in May until

 2     October 1991?

 3        A.   I worked in the professional fire brigade every day.  I had to go

 4     to work.

 5        Q.   And what did your work involve with the fire brigades?

 6        A.   I was on duty and if there was fire anywhere I had to go out into

 7     the field and intervene.  So I had to be on duty within the fire brigade

 8     station in Vukovar.

 9        Q.   And during this time, did you ever have to visit Vukovar Hospital

10     as part of your job as a fire fighter?

11        A.   The first and the last time I was at the Vukovar Hospital was on

12     the 5th of October, 1991, when I brought 10.000 litres of water together

13     with my colleague fire fighter, Slobodan Ristic.

14        Q.   And when you visited the hospital on the 5th of October, what did

15     you see in the hospital?

16        A.   Since the shelling was heavy, we made sure that the water

17     decanted into the apposite container, and I went into the basement where

18     I saw a crowd of wounded who were lying in beds, some of them

19     unconscious.  The stench was unbearable and I didn't know where it was

20     that I was worse off, down there with them or upstairs where the shells

21     were landing.

22        Q.   And did you continue to work as a fire fighter after the

23     5th of October?

24        A.   No, I escaped from the fire brigade station when the tanks

25     reached all the way to the station.  We dispersed and I went home.

Page 3419

 1        Q.   And when you say the tanks reached the station, what tanks were

 2     those?

 3        A.   They were the tanks of the Yugoslav People's Army.

 4        Q.   And what did you do after the fire brigade station was attacked

 5     by the JNA tanks?

 6        A.   All the members of the fire brigade who were in the station

 7     dispersed and fled across the graveyard to -- in the direction of the

 8     centre of town -- of town of Vukovar.

 9        Q.   And in the days after the tanks attacking the fire brigade, what

10     did you do during those days?  Did you go to work?

11        A.   I didn't go to work anymore.  My car had been destroyed first and

12     then my motor as well, so I stayed at home at Budzak where I manned the

13     position opposite the Dzerge forest.

14        Q.   And what position was this?

15        A.   Budzak is on the edge of Vukovar.  When travelling from Vinkovci,

16     along that road you will come across the Budzak Street which is right by

17     the Dzerge forest.

18        Q.   And when you say "the position," was that a military position?

19        A.   That was our defence line at the time.  At Budzak, opposite the

20     Dzerge forest, the rebel Serbs and perhaps some other paramilitaries were

21     in the Dzerge forest.

22        Q.   And what happened on the 18th of November, 1991?

23        A.   On the 18th of November, we retreated from that position and went

24     to the Borovo complex to the shelter where women and children were

25     located.

Page 3420

 1             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 6231 - that's tab 16

 2     of the Court's bundle - be shown.

 3        Q.   Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see a document on the screen in front

 4     of you.

 5             Mr. Culic, do you recognise the document in front of you?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   What is this a document -- a photograph of?

 8        A.   The photograph depicts an area of Vukovar and Borovo Naselje.

 9        Q.   And can you please mark with an X where you were stationed at

10     Budzak Street?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   And can you please tell me where do you live in relation to the

13     place that you've just marked with an X?

14        A.   I marked the house where I stayed until the very end.  That --

15     that was where I lived.

16        Q.   And can you please mark with a Y the Borovo factory complex.  Or

17     if you can just circle the factory complex for me, please.

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that this annotated version of the

20     photograph 65 ter 6231 be admitted into evidence.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1408.  Thank you.

23             MS. DENNEHY:

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Culic.

25             Now, you've told us on the 18th of November you retreated into

Page 3421

 1     the Borovo factory complex that you've just indicated on the map -- or

 2     the photograph, I apologise.  Can you please describe what you saw when

 3     you entered the Borovo factory?

 4        A.   When I arrived at the shelter of the Borovo factory, my late

 5     father, my step-mother, and two neighbours with their children were

 6     already there.  It was on the night between the 18th and the 19th that I

 7     arrived at the footwear workshop.  I was with them until the 20th, when

 8     we surrendered.

 9        Q.   And approximately how many people were inside the factory complex

10     when you retreated into it?

11        A.   In that basement where I arrived and where my family were, there

12     were around a thousand people.

13             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 4799.8 be shown.

14     That's a video.  That's at tab 14 of the Court's bundle.

15        Q.   Mr. Culic, you will shortly see a video being played on the

16     screen in front of you.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We don't have the

19     transcript.

20             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, if I could have just a moment,

21     please.

22             Mr. President, I've been advised that the transcript is in

23     e-court and it is available at present.  I apologise that it hasn't been

24     given to the interpreters before now.

25                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

Page 3422

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, do you need the clip for the images

 2     only or for images and the spoken bit?

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  For this particular exhibit, Mr. President, I only

 4     need the images.  I do not need the sound.  However, for other videos

 5     that I intend to play there are transcripts, I believe, available, and I

 6     will be tendering transcripts as well.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So we can continue with this clip for the

 8     images only.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And you make sure that the transcripts are with

11     the interpreters when you play the next one.

12             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, of course, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MS. DENNEHY:

15        Q.   Mr. Culic, the scenes in front of you on the video we've just

16     played, do you recognise those scenes?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Can you please tell me where are these scenes from?

19        A.   I can't see anything on the screen at the moment.  I see myself.

20     Can you change that?  I can't see the thing that you want me to see.  I

21     have nothing on the screen.

22             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that the video again be shown -

23     that's Exhibit 4799.8 - in order to let the witness see the images.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.  I have it now.

25             MS. DENNEHY:

Page 3423

 1        Q.   Again, can you please tell me where are these scenes from?

 2        A.   This was taken in the new shoe factory in the basement or in the

 3     area known as atomic shelter.

 4        Q.   And was this part of the factory complex where you took shelter

 5     and where you were treated to after the 18th of November?

 6        A.   Yes.  That room was within the perimeter of the Borovo factory.

 7             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that this video, 4799.8, be

 8     admitted into evidence, images only.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P1409.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, so we remove the transcript from

12     e-court, right?

13             MS. DENNEHY:  For this particular clip, yes.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  For this more clip, yes.

15             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MS. DENNEHY:

18        Q.   Mr. Culic, you mentioned earlier that you surrender on the

19     20th of November, 1991, can you please describe for the Court what

20     happened on that day?

21        A.   On the 20th November, 1991, in the shoe factory of the Borovo

22     complex, an officer came to the gate.  He was a highly-ranked officer of

23     the JNA, either lieutenant-colonel or colonel.  He was accompanied by the

24     military police.  He came to the gate of the Borovo complex.  A group of

25     some 20 or 30 men, defenders who had withdrawn into the complex,

Page 3424

 1     approached them and they started talking.  Zeljko Jukic was amongst us.

 2     He immediately recognised the officer in question because they had known

 3     each other from before.  Zeljko Jukic was his orderly in the army in

 4     Novi Sad.  They started talking.  He said, Please organise yourself as

 5     soon as possible and surrender as soon as possible.  I cannot suppress

 6     [Realtime transcript read in error, "express"] the Chetniks any longer.

 7     They will storm in.

 8        Q.   Can I ask -- can I ask that the record be amended.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:  I believe the transcript reads, "I cannot express."

10     I believe the witness says, "I cannot repress [sic]."

11             THE INTERPRETER:  "Suppress," the interpreter notes.

12             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you.

13        Q.   Mr. Culic, other than the negotiations between Zeljko Jukic and

14     the lieutenant-colonel of the JNA on that day, were you aware of any

15     other negotiations that took place?

16        A.   When I was down in the shelter I heard, and later on I checked,

17     that Ivica Banovic, the guards' commander and the police commander from

18     Varazdin, and another commander, Filkovic, went to Borovo Selo to

19     negotiate the future surrender.

20        Q.   And who did Banovic and Filkovic negotiate with at Borovo Selo?

21        A.   They negotiated with a highly ranking JNA officer and Arkan who

22     was also there, the notorious Arkan.

23        Q.   So going back to your surrender at the Borovo factory on the

24     20th, what were you and the other Croat forces ordered to do with your

25     weapons when you surrendered?

Page 3425

 1        A.   It was agreed that colonel, lieutenant-colonel said that those of

 2     us who were armed had to surrender their weapons, that we would be

 3     checked, and what he had in mind were the defenders.  And then we would

 4     be put on buses and taken to camps.  Civilians, on the other hand, women

 5     and children, would be on a -- the other side and they would be taken to

 6     Croatia.

 7        Q.   And you mentioned earlier that the lieutenant-colonel said he

 8     could not suppress the Chetniks.  What other forces, and Serb forces in

 9     particular, were present at the factory that day?

10        A.   There was a certain number of tanks at the very entrance to the

11     Borovo complex.

12        Q.   And were there other armed Serb forces present?

13        A.   At the moment when we surrendered on the other side of the fence,

14     there were all sorts of formations including the JNA as well as people

15     with Chetnik markings on them.  There were also people with stars on

16     their hats.  There were all sorts of formations but their numbers were

17     not large.

18        Q.   Do you know the names of any of those formations?

19        A.   No, I don't know.  We called some the White Eagles or Arkan's Men

20     or rebel Serbs or the JNA.  That's how we called them.  When I say the

21     JNA, I mean the regular JNA troops.

22             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I now ask that exhibit number 4798.4 be shown.

23     That's at tab 10 of the Court's bundle.

24        Q.   Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see another video on the screen in

25     front of you.

Page 3426

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. DENNEHY:  In order to assist the Court's interpreters, may I

 3     ask that this be shown again.  I do believe the transcript is also

 4     available in respect of this video.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes, we have not been

 6     provided with a hard copy of the transcript, and without it we cannot

 7     interpret.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We need to provide the interpreters with a hard

 9     copy, Ms. Dennehy.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  I understand, Mr. President.  I do apologise.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we do that right away?

12             MS. DENNEHY:  I am told that the hard copy transcripts are on

13     their way.  It may take another few moments.

14             Perhaps it's best if I leave this and I can continue on and show

15     the video once the transcripts have been provided to the interpreters.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It seems a good idea.

17             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Culic, we are going to show that particular video and others

19     shortly.  There has been a procedural delay and so we will go back to

20     that video.

21             In the meantime, I'd like you to tell the Court what happened

22     after you surrendered to the JNA?

23        A.   When I surrendered my weapons, I was searched and then I got on a

24     bus.  I was on the bus number 2 or number 3 and the defenders Vukovar

25     were there together with me.  I was waiting to be taken into an unknown.

Page 3427

 1     I didn't know where we would be taken to.

 2        Q.   And what happened to the civilians who were present at the Borovo

 3     factory at the same time?

 4        A.   We were looking towards the gate.  We were on the left side and

 5     they were on the right side.  We were put on buses, whereas at the same

 6     time they were put on trucks.

 7        Q.   Now you said you were on bus number 2 or 3 with the other

 8     defenders of Vukovar.  Where were you and the other men brought to after

 9     you left the Borovo factory?

10        A.   We drove through Borovo, Trpinja, at the Bobota-Vera cross-roads,

11     and then we turned right.  We drove through Vera, we arrived in Bogojevo,

12     we crossed the bridge, and we entered Vojvodina.  From Bogojevo, we were

13     taken directly to Stajicevo.

14        Q.   And what did the JNA tell you about where you were going when the

15     buses left Borovo?

16        A.   The military policemen, members of the JNA who searched us, we

17     knew some of them from before.  They told us that nothing would happen to

18     us, that we would be taken to a camp.  That's what a military policeman

19     told us.  None of the other military personnel told us anything.

20        Q.   And what happened when you arrived at Stajicevo?

21        A.   When my bus pulled over in front of Stajicevo, and let me tell

22     you I was wounded in the right arm, that's -- that was a very difficult

23     period of my life.  I'd never experienced anything like that before or

24     after.  I'd run a gauntlet and a military jeep lights shone straight into

25     our eyes, and in the gauntlet there were JNA military police who beat us.

Page 3428

 1     So we did not see who it was who beat us because we were blinded by the

 2     jeep lights.

 3        Q.   And what did the JNA military police beat you with as you ran

 4     through the gauntlet?

 5        A.   Some beat us with their hand.  Some kicked us.  Some had batons.

 6     Some had wooden sticks.

 7        Q.   Did you see any women being beaten when you arrived at Stajicevo?

 8        A.   The first and last time in my life I saw that.  On the left-hand

 9     side a military police officer spotted a woman in a military uniform, and

10     he said, Look at this ZNG lass.  And he hit her so she fell down on the

11     floor.  It was a terrible thing to do.  It was an awful moment, something

12     that I'll remember all my life.

13        Q.   Can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at

14     Stajicevo?  Or can you -- let me rephrase that:  Can you please describe

15     the building into which you entered when you arrived at Stajicevo?

16        A.   It was a longish building.  It was a cattle barn.  In the middle

17     there was an opening about 2 metres wide and on both sides there were

18     boxes for cows.  As we entered, we were shouted at, we were beaten, they

19     directed those lights at us, and they instructed us to lie down on the

20     floor and that we should not lift our heads.  There was commotion and

21     chaos.  There was dogs there as well.  It was like in a movie.  I don't

22     know if you have ever seen any movie about Auschwitz, but if you did, I

23     can tell you that it was exactly like that.

24        Q.   Approximately how many people were housed in the stable that you

25     just described?

Page 3429

 1        A.   About a thousand, give or take.  I'm sure that there was a

 2     thousand of us.

 3        Q.   And when you first entered the building, were there any men there

 4     or people before you?

 5        A.   When we first entered, we saw that there were people there, not

 6     many.  They had arrived before us, one day or one night before us.  But I

 7     realised that only later.  I was so afraid.  They shouted at us.  I could

 8     not focus on anything else.  When they shouted "sit down" or "lie down"

 9     that's what I did.  I wasn't looking around.

10        Q.   And when you said "when they shouted" at you, who do you mean?

11     Who shouted at you and who was guarding you at Stajicevo?

12        A.   At Stajicevo there were JNA military police reservists.

13        Q.   And do you know who was in charge of the camp at Stajicevo?

14        A.   On the following day, during the course of that day a person

15     entered the barn and introduced himself.  He told us his name and he said

16     that he was the commander of the camp, and he said that we were

17     prisoners, that we were war rebels.  He said that he -- that we would be

18     interrogated, that the conditions of our stay would improve.  That's what

19     he told us.

20        Q.   And to what part of the military did this commander belong?

21        A.   I don't know who he was.  In any case, he wore a uniform.  He

22     sported some insignia.  I don't know what his rank was.  I know that he

23     was a JNA officer and he introduced himself to us as the person in

24     charge, the one who was responsible for that part.

25        Q.   Can you please describe for the Court how the JNA military police

Page 3430

 1     ordered you to sit or stand while you were at Stajicevo?

 2        A.   In any case they shouted.  They used bad words.  They would shout

 3     "heads down," and then they would hit us by batons.  Usually by batons.

 4     They told us that we had to obey them.  That we should not look at them.

 5     That we should not lift our heads.  They wanted to make sure that we

 6     understood that since we were there that it was not a good thing for us.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Culic, you said that the JNA commander of the camp said

 8     that you were war rebels.  Were you charged with any crime at Stajicevo?

 9        A.   No.  Never.  I was never prosecuted for any crimes.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, I note the time, and before I show

11     the next exhibit I wondered whether now would be an appropriate time to

12     break.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We still have four minutes, but if that's --

14             MS. DENNEHY:  That's sufficient.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

16             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask in that case that 65 ter 2410.1 be

17     shown.

18        Q.   Mr. Culic, you'll soon see a document on the screen in front of

19     you.

20             MS. DENNEHY:  This is tab 6 of the Court's binder.

21        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you recognise the document in front of you?

22        A.   I do.

23        Q.   Mr. Culic, at the bottom left corner of that document, do you see

24     a circle marked in red?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 3431

 1        Q.   Mr. Culic, did you make this circle marked in red while at

 2     The Hague?

 3        A.   I did.

 4        Q.   And when did you make this marking on this document?

 5        A.   Yesterday afternoon.

 6        Q.   Can you please tell the Court why you circled in red the number

 7     at the bottom left corner of this document?

 8        A.   Because I recognised the names of some people who were in

 9     Stajicevo with me.  I know some of them by name and the others I know by

10     sight.  I know their faces but I can't put any names to those faces

11     unfortunately.

12        Q.   Mr. Culic, the name that you have circled, Barbir, was that

13     person in Stajicevo when you were detained there?

14        A.   Yes, he was.

15             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, can I please ask that this document,

16     65 ter 2410.1, be admitted into evidence.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1410.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ready for a break now, Ms. Dennehy?

20             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Culic, we will take the first break now, come

22     back at 11.00.  The Court Usher will escort you out of the courtroom.

23     Thank you.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

Page 3432

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Dennehy.

 4             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Culic, just before the break you looked at a document that

 6     you had marked yesterday.

 7             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that the Court Officer bring up

 8     Exhibit P1410.  Can I please scroll to the next page, too.

 9        Q.   Mr. Culic, you indicated before the break that you had circled

10     certain numbers indicating that those names were those individuals who

11     were at Stajicevo with you; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now looking at the document in front of you, can you please name

14     the individual who you have circled and who was at Stajicevo with you?

15        A.   On this sheet I only circled the name of Ivan Batarelo.  I know

16     that there are more of them by the last name of Batarelo, but I know that

17     he was with me at Stajicevo.

18             MS. DENNEHY:  Can we please scroll through to the next indicated

19     name.

20        Q.   Mr. Culic, can you please indicate the names that appear in front

21     of you now as those individuals who were at Stajicevo with you?

22        A.   I circled Bozo Brekalo, Damir Brnas, Ivan Brnas, father and son,

23     another Ivan Brnas.  There were three or four of them.  They were all

24     family.  I don't know if they were cousins.  At any rate, they were

25     related.  Then I also circled Ivan Budim, who was a mechanic at

Page 3433

 1     Cazmatrans.  I also circled Miroslav Budim, his son.  I circled the name

 2     of Josip Budimir.  He was a neighbour of mine.  Filip Budimir, his

 3     brother.  Zoran Capan was a young man living on the street next to mine.

 4        Q.   Mr. Culic, what ethnicity were the people who you just named are,

 5     the people you just named?

 6        A.   All those who -- whom I've mentioned just now were Croats.  Some

 7     of them may have been from mixed families, Serb or Hungarian, but most of

 8     them were Croats.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask the Court Officer now to scroll

10     through to the page that is the last page of this exhibit that is marked.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Culic, on page 23 of this document in front of you, can

12     you please name the people who you have indicated were in Stajicevo with

13     you on this page, please?

14        A.   Robert Zivkovic, Sandor Zivkovic, Simo Zivkovic, Boris Zuvela.  I

15     don't know these people as well as I do the others, but I know that they

16     were ...

17        Q.   Were those people in Stajicevo with you?

18        A.   Based on what is written here and from what I remember, I believe

19     that they were.

20        Q.   So if I can ask you that question again, from what you remember

21     were those people at Stajicevo with you?

22        A.   Yes, those persons were with me at Stajicevo.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Culic, what ethnicity, if you know, were these people?

24        A.   As for the Zivkovic family, I don't think that they are Croats.

25     I do believe that Boris Zuvela [Realtime transcript read in

Page 3434

 1     error "Zivkovic"] is a Croat.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Culic, we are going to show you a number of videos that

 3     we mentioned earlier.

 4             MS. DENNEHY:  If I could please ask --

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry for interruption, but I think it is an

 6     error in transcript.  He said "Boris Zuvela," not "Boris Zivkovic."  It

 7     is line 7, page 32.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you confirm that, Mr. Witness, who you

 9     believe was a Croat, Boris, what's his family name?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It reads Zuvela and it's a

11     well-known family name.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I now please ask that 65 ter 4798.4 be shown.

14     That's a video at tab 10 of the Court's bundle.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] You can get involved a bit here to

17     help to get these people pull out, those wounded over there.

18             "A decisive action of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army with the

19     particular distinction of the Zrenjanin Battalion as they called it, the

20     decisive attack against this Ustasha stronghold was carried out.  This

21     afternoon, around 5.00 p.m., the resistance has finally been broken; the

22     members of MUP and ZNG have raised their hands up in the air.

23     Approximately a thousand of them surrendered."

24             MS. DENNEHY:

25        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you recognise the scenes on the video that we've

Page 3435

 1     just shown you?

 2        A.   I recognise it.

 3        Q.   Can you please tell me what are these scenes of?

 4        A.   These scenes show how the Komerc building, which was part of the

 5     Borovo complex, and the people who were in that building surrendered.

 6        Q.   Can you please tell me what -- you saw a building burning in this

 7     video, what building is that?

 8        A.   This was the Komerc building which was in fact a storage place

 9     for the finished products.

10        Q.   And do you know who the men lining up against the wall at the

11     very end of the video, do you know who those men are?

12        A.   Most of them were defenders of Vukovar.

13        Q.   And finally, the scenes that you've just seen on the video, are

14     they reminiscent of the day that you surrendered at the Borovo factory?

15        A.   Our surrender within the Borovo complex was a bit more organised.

16     We were recorded on a list.

17             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I ask that this Exhibit, 65 ter 4798.4, be

18     admitted into evidence.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1411.  Thank you.

21             MS. DENNEHY:

22        Q.   Mr. Culic, I am going to show you another video.

23             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 4789.3 - that's at

24     tab 8 - be shown.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 3436

 1             "Martin Bell:  ... a factory near Vukovar where the Croats had

 2     held out until the last.  The army was rounding up a thousand civilians

 3     and 500 former soldiers.  There is a massive and forced migration of

 4     people going on.  Again, each side is charging the other with atrocities.

 5     The facts are unclear, but some terrible things were done in the final

 6     hours.

 7             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Vukovar."

 8             MS. DENNEHY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Culic, from the video I've just shown, do you recognise the

10     scenes on that video?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   And what are those scenes of?

13        A.   They were the people again who had surrendered in the complex of

14     the Borovo factory.

15        Q.   And did you recognise any of the men in that video?

16        A.   I have.

17        Q.   And who were those men that you recognised?

18        A.   I recognised a young man.  I can't recall his name.  He was and

19     electrician at Cazma.  On the 20th in the morning when I brought over the

20     water tanker, the Komerc building was empty, I drove over the water

21     tanker to connect it to the building so that people would have water.  I

22     asked the officer who was there to allow me to drive the water tanker

23     through because people were thirsty.  He charged a soldier to accompany

24     me and make sure that I wouldn't escape.  I recognised that soldier in

25     the footage here.  He helped me connect the water tanker after I had

Page 3437

 1     driven it over.

 2        Q.   And the man that you recognise in the video, what uniform is he

 3     wearing?

 4        A.   He didn't have a uniform.  He was there for the purposes of the

 5     shelter where the women and children were located.

 6             MS. DENNEHY:  Can we please show the video again in order for the

 7     witness to identify the men who he's speaking of.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             "Martin Bell:  ... and at a factory near Vukovar where the Croats

10     had held out to the last.  The army was rounding up a thousand

11     civilians and 500" --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the young man I was talking

13     about.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             "Martin Bell:  ... spend the night.  And at a factory near

16     Vukovar, where the Croats had held up until last.  The army was rounding

17     up a thousand civilians and 500" --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the lad that I know.

19             MS. DENNEHY:

20        Q.   And Mr. Culic, do you recognise the next man who is shown in the

21     video --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, wouldn't it be good to have on the

23     record the exact reference in the clip?

24             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, I apologise, Mr. President.  Please let the

25     record show that at time stamp 25:29:5, the witness has identified an

Page 3438

 1     unnamed man who he knows from the Borovo factory.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             "Martin Bell:  ... former soldiers.  There is a massive and

 4     forced migration of people going on.  Again, each side the charging the

 5     other with atrocities.  The facts are unclear, but some terrible things

 6     were done in the final hours.

 7             "Martin Bell, BBC News, Vukovar."

 8             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that 65 ter 4789.3, the video

 9     that's just been shown, be admitted into evidence.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1412.  Thank you.

12             MS. DENNEHY:  And may I now show - and this is the last video for

13     the time being - the exhibit at 65 ter 4799.7.  That's tab 13 of the

14     Court's bundle.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Miodrag Popov:  Today, again around

17     700 Ustashas have surrendered, amongst them also the well known leaders

18     of the Zenge, ZNG members, and members of the MUP from this area.  They

19     were hiding deep underground, in cellars and catacombs of the

20     Borovo company.  It is obvious that during the last months this company,

21     which was once a Yugoslav company, was turned into a nest of Croatian

22     Ustashas."

23             MS. DENNEHY:

24        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you recognise the scenes from the video that have

25     been just shown to you?

Page 3439

 1        A.   I did.

 2        Q.   And what are these the scenes of?

 3        A.   I recognise the shelter where I spent one day and where my late

 4     father, my step-mother, and my neighbours were.

 5             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I ask that this video be shown again and it be

 6     paused at time stamp 55:30.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             MS. DENNEHY:

 9        Q.   Mr. Culic, from the scene and the image that is shown to you now,

10     do you recognise these buses?

11        A.   I do.

12        Q.   And why do you recognise these buses?

13        A.   Because we boarded the buses, and I mean the defenders who were

14     on the right-hand side.  We boarded the buses and we were told that we

15     were being taken to camps.

16             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that this exhibit, 65 ter 4799.7,

17     be admitted into evidence.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1413.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MS. DENNEHY:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Culic, I'd like to move back to before the break when we

23     spoke and you told the Court about your detention at the camp, Stajicevo.

24     Were you interrogated while you were at Stajicevo?

25        A.   I was interrogated only once.

Page 3440

 1        Q.   And who interrogated you while you were at Stajicevo?

 2        A.   A military policeman of the JNA.  And at the barn where we were

 3     held, he read out my first and last name and took me out of the barn into

 4     a house and a room inside it.  I had to keep my head bowed and I couldn't

 5     look where we were going, and he, in fact, took me to an interrogator, an

 6     official.

 7        Q.   And what was the purpose of your interrogation at Stajicevo?

 8        A.   When I got there, he asked me to raise my head and asked me when

 9     I was born.  I told him that I was born on the 24th of November, 1955,

10     and he told me, Well, you've just celebrated your birthday.  How are you

11     doing?  And I said, Fine.  I didn't dare say anything else.  He asked me

12     where I was deployed, at which positions, what sort of weapons did I

13     have, did I fire from those weapons, and if I know knew anything about

14     any crimes.  That was all.

15        Q.   How were you and the other men treated by the guards at

16     Stajicevo?

17        A.   The JNA military policemen at the Stajicevo camp treated us so

18     roughly, shouted at us, beat us, and humiliated us in such a manner as I

19     had never experienced in my life before.  I so frightened that I didn't

20     dare eat anything for days at an end.

21        Q.   How did -- you've just mentioned that the JNA military police

22     "beat us."  Can you describe that for the Court?

23        A.   We were in the shed or the barn and lined into two lines.  They

24     would pass in the aisle in the middle - they had those German shepherds

25     initially, the dogs - and beat us.  Whoever dared raise his head a bit

Page 3441

 1     would be beaten immediately.  So nobody dared rear their heads.  That was

 2     in the early days.  They terrorised us and they just walked past us and

 3     beat whomever they pleased.  We were lying down on the concrete.  It was

 4     terrible.

 5             If I may continue, whenever we had to go to the toilet, we would

 6     raise our hand and allowed to go.  I am talking about the first days of

 7     the our time at Stajicevo.  We went out to do whatever we needed to do,

 8     to pass water.  They would always be insulting us and abusing us.  It was

 9     horrible to even look at.

10        Q.   How did they abuse you when you asked to go outside?

11        A.   I will demonstrate this.  I would raise my hand like this and say

12     I have to go to the toilet, and then I would stand up and be on my way.

13     But as soon as you were on your way, they would beat you.  And then if

14     you were passing water, as you were doing that, and urinating, they would

15     be beating you.  So they wouldn't leave us in peace even in those

16     moments.  That was at the beginning.  It was horrid to even look at when

17     other people were being abused this way.

18        Q.   Did any of the prisoners die while you were at Stajicevo?

19        A.   The early days at Stajicevo, there were people who were of a poor

20     mind state and simply didn't know what they were doing anymore.  They

21     lost it.  And they would stand up and start running somewhere.  And, of

22     course, we weren't allowed to do anything, not even look up, unless you

23     were given permission.  So whoever dared stand up uncontrollably, they

24     would immediately swarm him and beat him, kick him and punch him.  There

25     was this case involving Kunac, a man who used to live on a street next to

Page 3442

 1     mine.  He lost it and they jumped him, beat him up.  They never stopped

 2     and he died later.  That was 10 metres away from me.  He was five years

 3     older than me and went to school with my brother.

 4        Q.   And when you say "they" jumped him, beat him up.  Who are you

 5     referring to?

 6        A.   Maybe I was not clear enough.  Those were military policemen.

 7     They were always there.  They were the rulers there.

 8        Q.   Did the Red Cross visit you while you were at Stajicevo camp?

 9        A.   The Red Cross did come to visit once, as far as I remember.  That

10     was on the 6th of December, 1991.

11        Q.   And what did the Red Cross do when they visited the camp?

12        A.   We were relieved to see them because we knew that they would make

13     a list of all of our names.  Our numbers would be known.  That was a

14     guarantee that they would not take us away into an unknown.  That was

15     very important, for our names to be known, and for us to send messages to

16     our families if we knew where they were.

17        Q.   Did you complain to the Red Cross delegates when they visited

18     Stajicevo?

19        A.   I did not have to complain.  They realised and they knew, they

20     saw the conditions that we were in.

21             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I now ask that 65 ter 2407.1 - that's at

22     tab 4 - be shown.

23        Q.   Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see a document on the screen in front

24     of you.  Mr. Culic, can you -- do you recognise the document in front of

25     you?

Page 3443

 1        A.   I do.

 2        Q.   What is this a document of?

 3        A.   This is a document containing the names of those people who were

 4     at Stajicevo with me.

 5        Q.   And do you recognise the red markings on this document?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And who made those red markings?

 8        A.   I did.

 9        Q.   When did you make those markings?

10        A.   Yesterday afternoon.

11        Q.   And why did you make those markings on the [indiscernible]

12     document?

13        A.   I made them because I recognised the names of some of the people

14     who were at Stajicevo.

15        Q.   Can you please tell the Court at number 158, who is the

16     individual who is shown on this list?

17        A.   158 is Dr. Emedi, a physician who dressed my wounds at Stajicevo.

18        Q.   And where was this doctor from?

19        A.   He was from Vukovar, he resided in Vukovar, and he worked as a

20     doctor in Vukovar.

21             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that this exhibit, 65 ter 2407.1

22     be admitted into evidence.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1414.  Thank you.

25             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I now ask that 65 ter 4986.2, that's a video,

Page 3444

 1     at tab 15 of the Court's bundle, be shown to the witness.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unknown man 1:  They butchered

 4     everything that moved.  That's how it was.

 5             "Unknown man 2:  This is the famous Yugoslav factory of rubber

 6     and footwear factory, Borovo.  Some 1.000 to 1500 Croatian soldiers

 7     surrendered here today.

 8             "Petar Mlinaric:  I can show you the place where I was separated

 9     and put on a bus with people I have never seen again.  Bearded people

10     came.  They didn't know us anymore.

11             "Mirko Kovacic:  Everything is as it was.

12             "Unknown woman 1:  Don't cry.  Please don't cry.

13             "Mirko Kovacic:  We arrived here on the 19th around midnight.

14     There were eight buses.  I was in the third bus.  This is where the

15     gauntlet was, where they beat us."

16             MS. DENNEHY:

17        Q.   Mr. Culic, the building that you saw at the end of this video,

18     what was that building?

19        A.   I have nothing on the screen.

20             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that the video be shown again for

21     the witness.

22             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we object to the -- we let it go the

23     first time because it started before I realised what was being presented.

24     What we have is an audio of individuals who were witnesses to this event

25     that are being put to the witness.

Page 3445

 1             This is precisely the same as if we have, for example, a

 2     statement given to anyone some years after the events that are then read

 3     to the witness.  And as you know, I tried to do this just on Monday and

 4     was told that wasn't permissible.  And I understand why that is.  But,

 5     nonetheless, that's what we're doing now.  The Prosecution is putting a

 6     statement by witnesses to these events and then asking for the witness to

 7     comment upon that.

 8             So just in terms of what the remedy would be, no objection to

 9     showing the images, but there is an objection to putting the -- this --

10     essentially this testimony of witnesses to this witness.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, any reaction to that?

12             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.  The Prosecution does not

13     intend to put this witness testimony to this particular witness.  The

14     purpose of this video evidence is to identify the detention sites that

15     the witness was present at.  Therefore, if it pleases the Court, we can

16     tender or suggest to tender this video without either the transcript or

17     sound, merely for the images that it presents.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So if I understand, Mr. Gosnell, that the clip

19     will be tendered for the images only.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, the issue isn't only the admission, the

21     tendering, the issue is whether it should be put to the witness, the

22     audio.  And what we see now is the audio is being put to the witness and

23     then the witness is supposed to give a comment or a reaction.  I was

24     not --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But not on the audio.  Not on what is said.  Only

Page 3446

 1     on the images.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, it -- but if the images are -- sorry, if the

 3     audio is played, whatever questions are asked, it's going to be

 4     inevitably infected by whatever was heard on the audio, and I thought

 5     that that was precisely what the Chamber considered objectionable in

 6     respect of statements being read verbatim into the record.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The Chamber didn't rule on the objection a few

 8     days ago, Mr. Gosnell.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Well --

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But --

11             MR. GOSNELL:  It's true you didn't rule, but you did direct me

12     not to read the statement in question --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, on the spot we did.

14             MR. GOSNELL:  And I duly did not read.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Now, without taking a position on whether or not,

16     can we show -- can we show the video without the audio?

17             This is a question to the OTP or to the Registrar?  I don't know.

18             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.  We can show just the images

19     only and not the audio of this video.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  And then I suppose remove the transcript

21     from e-court.

22             Is that what you wanted to say, Mr. Registrar?  Or is there

23     anything else?

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So we'll show it again without the audio.

Page 3447

 1             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I've also been asked to inform

 2     you that the witness, to the Prosecution's knowledge, does not speak

 3     English and therefore cannot read the subtitles that are contained on

 4     this video.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MS. DENNEHY:

 8        Q.   Mr. Culic, from the images that have just been shown to you, do

 9     you recognise these images?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   From the building that has just been shown to you, do you

12     recognise that building?

13        A.   I recognise the building.  I will never forget it.

14        Q.   Can you please tell the Court where is that building?

15        A.   That building is near Zrenjanin, on a farm, and the name of that

16     farm is Stajicevo.

17        Q.   And was this the detention facility that you were detained at, at

18     Stajicevo?

19        A.   Yes, that's where we from Vukovar were detained.  That's -- that

20     was its purpose.

21        Q.   And Mr. Culic, the image in front of you now, at

22     time stamp 1:36:51.2, do you recognise those scenes?

23        A.   I do.

24        Q.   The barbed wire that you see in the video, was that the barbed

25     wire that you surrounded the Stajicevo camp?

Page 3448

 1        A.   That barbed wire surrounded the camp and there were guards at

 2     every corner.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  If we can now continue the video until time stamp

 4     36:56, please.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MS. DENNEHY:

 7        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you recognise these scenes as being similar to

 8     those that you experienced at Stajicevo?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.  And everything is similar to when I was at Stajicevo.

10             MS. DENNEHY:  Can we now play the remainder of the video.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I please ask that this 65 ter 4986.2 be

13     admitted into evidence, images only.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marking.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1415.  Thank you.

16             MS. DENNEHY:

17        Q.   Mr. Culic, how long were you detained at Stajicevo for?

18        A.   I stayed in Stajicevo for a month, give or take.  In any case,

19     around a month.

20        Q.   And when did you leave Stajicevo, approximately?

21        A.   We left Stajicevo before the Catholic Christmas that year, before

22     the 24th of December.

23        Q.   And how many men left Stajicevo on the day that you left?

24        A.   As far as I can remember, we all left.  One group was taken to

25     Mitrovica and the others were taken to Nis.

Page 3449

 1        Q.   And where did you go that day?

 2        A.   I was with the group of people who were taken to Nis.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I ask that 65 ter 6327 - that's page 4 of the

 4     Court binder; that's the Court binder of maps.  This is at tab 20 of the

 5     Court's binder for this witness - be shown.

 6        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you recognise the document in front of you?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   What is this a document of?

 9        A.   This is a map of the Republic of Serbia.

10        Q.   Can you please indicate on the map with the pen in front of you

11     the approximate location of Stajicevo on this map?

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Can you now please indicate where the location of Nis is on this

14     map?

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And finally, can you approximately point to the location of

17     Vukovar on this map?

18        A.   [Marks]

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, my client would like to leave the

20     courtroom for a short time.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that's okay with security.

22                           [The accused withdrew]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we continue in the meantime, Mr. Zivanovic,

24     or do we wait for him to come back?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 3450

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We continue.

 2             Please proceed.

 3             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, can I please ask that this exhibit,

 4     6327, as annotated by the witness be admitted into evidence.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1416.  Thank you.

 7             MS. DENNEHY:

 8        Q.   Mr. Culic, you just indicated for the Court the location of Nis

 9     where you were taken from Stajicevo.  Can you please describe the

10     facility that you were taken to at Nis?

11        A.   When we arrived in Nis in front of the penitentiary or the

12     military prison there, a huge gate opened, then we entered the courtyard,

13     then another gate opened.  Those gates were both very tall.  It was dark.

14     It was like a horror move.  It was in the middle of the night.  And only

15     in the third courtyard did the buses finally stop and the prisoners were

16     unloaded from the buses, one after the next, and they were taken to a

17     building.

18        Q.   And what armed forces controlled the penitentiary at Nis?

19        A.   It was the regular military police, i.e., young policemen, who

20     were doing their regular military service.

21        Q.   And what did the guards do to you and the other prisoners when

22     you arrived at Nis on the bus?

23        A.   As I was getting off the bus and as I was entering the building,

24     I had to go down the stairs.  There was another gauntlet waiting for us

25     there.  I was immediately kicked in the chest by a tall soldier.  For a

Page 3451

 1     moment I lost my breath.  And they shouted at us ordering us to align

 2     against the wall.  So immediately upon entering the building, I was dealt

 3     a very heavy blow in the chest.

 4        Q.   And you said that "there was another gauntlet waiting for us

 5     there," can you describe what that gauntlet was?

 6        A.   As we were entering, we had to walk close to the wall, and in the

 7     middle of the staircase there was a line of military policemen.  They hit

 8     us and kicked us and shouted at us and ordered us to keep our heads down,

 9     and then one of them said, My God, these people stink to high heavens.

10        Q.   Why did the guard say these people stink to high heavens?

11        A.   Because we had not had a bath since Vukovar.  In Vukovar, for

12     those last few days there was no water or food or anything, so we did not

13     take a bath there.  We did not bathe in Stajicevo.  Vukovar was hell.

14     Everything was hell.

15        Q.   And what did the guards do to your hair shortly after you arrived

16     at Nis?

17        A.   On the following day, once we were put in our rooms, on the

18     following day they gave us olive-drab uniforms of the JNA, and they took

19     us to have our heads shaved.

20        Q.   Did anyone explain to you why you were at Nis?

21        A.   No explanations were provided.  Nobody told us why we were in

22     Nis.  Yes, I apologise.  When we arrived at Nis and when we were

23     distributed across rooms, the commander of that prison made rounds of the

24     rooms.  He introduced himself to us.  He said that he was a colonel or a

25     lieutenant-colonel.  He said that he had arrived from Zadar, that he had

Page 3452

 1     taken over the prison, that we would be there until we were interrogated.

 2     He also mentioned the fact that we were beaten, and he said that he could

 3     not be in two places at the same time.  And then he said that after 9.00

 4     in the evening nobody would beat us.

 5        Q.   And were you charged with a crime when you arrived at Nis or any

 6     time while you were detained at Nis?

 7        A.   No, I was not charged with any crimes.  Me, personally.

 8        Q.   Can you please describe how the guards treated you and the other

 9     prisoners at Nis?

10        A.   Those military policemen were young lads.  When they woke us up

11     in the morning, they stormed the rooms.  They started shouting:  Get up.

12     Go quickly.  Go wash.  Go there.  They slapped us and kicked us.  They

13     shouted.  And then when we were taken for breakfast, we had to keep our

14     heads down.  We were not allowed to look them in the face.  And we had to

15     run down the stairs.

16             When we arrived at the mess, we would be lined up by the table,

17     and then they would shout, Sit down, and then we sat down.  And then she

18     would shout, Get up, and whoever was the last to do that would be beaten

19     or kicked or slapped.  And that happened twice or three times before we

20     started eating.  For the first couple of days they even kept on beating

21     us while we were eating, and then on the third day, one of them, and I

22     didn't see them because we did not dare look at their face, so that one

23     person said, Now, enough is enough.  Let's stop beating them while

24     they're eating.

25        Q.   Were you interrogated while you were at Nis?

Page 3453

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   How many times were you interrogated?

 3        A.   Four times.

 4        Q.   And can you describe your --

 5        A.   Four or five times.  I am not sure because I was taken twice to

 6     the same interrogator, but I was taken four times to different places.

 7        Q.   Can you describe for the Court the final interrogation that took

 8     place at Nis?

 9                           [The accused entered court]

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At 1.30 p.m., a military policeman

11     came for me.  He opened the door and had a piece of paper in his hands

12     and he said, Branko Culic.  I had to go out.  He asked me to bend over

13     and stretch my arms in front of me, and that was how I had to walk down

14     the steps and into the yard outside and then into a room.  As I stepped

15     into the room, he kicked me in my backside so that I hit the wall of the

16     room, and closed the door behind him.

17             Then the interrogator arrived.  He was a man of heavy build.  He

18     started cursing me right away and then beating me on my arms and my head.

19     I kneeled down on a bench by the wall and I raised my arms.  Then he

20     started beating me all over my body.  Then at one point he started

21     beating only my left side, up from my arms down to my feet.  And I was

22     there for some seven or eight hours, so it must have been until 9.00 in

23     the evening.  I didn't know that they brought over my cousin and the

24     commander of the street after I was taken.  So they were placed in the

25     adjacent rooms.  So they would be beating me and then leave the room and

Page 3454

 1     beat them.  And they would be taking turns this way.

 2             MS. DENNEHY:

 3        Q.   What questions did they ask you during this interrogation?

 4        A.   He asked me who was firing from the sniper rifle, who was laying

 5     mines, who was killing the Serbs and setting houses on fire.  I mean, he

 6     was asking me if I knew about these things.  He asked me what the

 7     positions were that I manned.  He asked me who had laid the mines in the

 8     area where we were present.  He asked about who had ordered us to lay

 9     these mines.  Those were the questions asked.

10        Q.   And how many guards were in the room while you were being

11     interrogated?

12        A.   There wasn't a single guard inside.  There was the interrogator

13     and two more persons came later.  Two of them beat me, the other one

14     didn't.  Then some of them would leave the room, and then this person who

15     wasn't beating me would come back to the room and say, Don't let them

16     beat you.  Why don't you make a confession?  And I said, Well, I said

17     that I was always sincere in my answers and that I said what I knew, and

18     that they could not force me to say things that weren't true.

19        Q.   And do you know what military unit to which the interrogator

20     belonged?

21        A.   The interrogator, the tall and strong man, wore a uniform, a

22     camouflage uniform, but without any insignia.  He knew how to beat a man.

23     He would kick you or punch you five times in exactly the same place.  It

24     was a targeted blow and an experienced one.

25        Q.   Mr. Culic, you said they said to you, Why don't you make a

Page 3455

 1     confession.  Did you ever gave a statement while you were at Nis?

 2        A.   At Nis I didn't write anything down because there wasn't anything

 3     for me to write about in terms of the questions that they put to me.  And

 4     even if I had anything to write about, I was not able to on account of

 5     the beatings.  He would be hitting me in the chest and asking me what my

 6     name was to see if I was still conscious and if I was still someone you

 7     could work with.

 8        Q.   And how long did this interrogation last for?

 9        A.   That last interrogation at Nis lasted from around 1.30 p.m. until

10     7.30 or 8.00 p.m.  Let's say until 7.30 p.m.  It lasted long.  It was the

11     longest interrogation I had.

12        Q.   And what happened after the interrogation?

13        A.   The military policemen who had brought me there took me back the

14     same way.  I had to place my arms in between my legs and then he would be

15     dragging me along.  I had never seen this manner of walking in my life.

16     He forced me up the steps and took me to my room, and then he asked me to

17     jump and land on both my feet on the concrete ten times, because he knew

18     that I had been beaten on the soles of my feet, and when I jumped he

19     would say, No good.  Again.  So I had to jump and land on my poor sole on

20     the concrete ten times again.  He then asked me how many children I had.

21     And then he kicked me in my backside and that was the way that he pushed

22     me into the room.  That was when my eyes watered, when he asked me about

23     my children.  I could contain my tears no longer.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy, I think it would be appropriate to

25     take the break now.

Page 3456

 1             MS. DENNEHY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Culic, we'll take the second break we usually

 3     take around this time and come back at 12.45.  The usher will escort you

 4     out of the courtroom.  Thank you very much.

 5                           [The witness stands down]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Dennehy.

11             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Culic, before the break you described for the Court the

13     interrogations and beatings that you suffered from at Nis.  When did you

14     leave the penitentiary at Nis?

15        A.   We left the penitentiary at Nis two days after this

16     interrogation.  I know that for a fact.  It may have been the 20th.  But

17     I know that it was two days after that interrogation that we went to

18     Mitrovica.

19        Q.   The 20th of what month and what year?

20        A.   The 20th of February, 1992.

21        Q.   And you said that you went to Mitrovica.  How did you go to

22     Mitrovica?

23        A.   At 3.00 in the morning lights went up.  The military police

24     stepped in and told us to take our uniforms off, to put on civilian

25     clothes, to tidy up our beds, and get ready because they would be

Page 3457

 1     boarding a bus.  That was when we left all the rooms and boarded the

 2     buses.  When all those who they felt should board the buses did, we

 3     headed for Mitrovica.

 4        Q.   And who was in charge of the buses leaving for Sremska Mitrovica

 5     from Nis?

 6        A.   It was the JNA army, the Yugoslav Army.  They were in charge of

 7     it all.  We were in their hands, their officers and personnel.  They

 8     organised it all and were in charge of it all.

 9        Q.   And how did they treat you on the bus from Sremska Mitrovica?

10        A.   There were two armed military policemen in the bus.  Quite

11     frequently they would walk up and down the bus and slap whoever happened

12     to be within their reach, and my cousin was seated in such a way that he

13     got twice as many blows as I did.  In those four or five hours they would

14     have slapped us on quite a few occasions, and, of course, we had to keep

15     our heads down.  That was the sort of farewell that they bid to us.

16        Q.   And can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at

17     Sremska Mitrovica?

18        A.   I saw that we entered the prisoner compound.  There were buses,

19     one behind the other, and we were waiting for prisoners to get off the

20     bus and enter the building.  When the turn of our bus came, we got off.

21     Again, there was a gauntlet there that we had to run through.  We were

22     then frisked, although not seriously, really, and then they saw us to our

23     respective cells, but they didn't beat us on this occasion.

24        Q.   And where did you stay when you were detained at

25     Sremska Mitrovica?

Page 3458

 1        A.   I stayed on the second floor.  I was in room 7 at Nis, whereas I

 2     was in room 6 here.  It was room number 6 on the second floor.  It was a

 3     room that could fit about a hundred people.  We were all crowded into

 4     that one room.  So some of the people from the buses were sent to this

 5     room and others were placed elsewhere.  I don't know where.  But as I

 6     said, only some of the people who had arrived on the buses with me were

 7     in the room where I stayed.

 8        Q.   Were you interrogated while you were at Sremska Mitrovica?

 9        A.   They interrogated me.

10        Q.   How many times were you interrogate, approximately?

11        A.   I was interrogated three times at Mitrovica and that was always

12     before that same interrogator who had interrogated me at Nis.  The last

13     interrogation was a very brief one and it was different.

14        Q.   Can you describe the worst interrogation that you experienced

15     while you were detained at Sremska Mitrovica?

16        A.   The worst interrogation occurred ten days after our arrival from

17     Nis.  By that time the blisters on my soles had managed to heal finally.

18     And that was the first time that I was interrogated in Mitrovica.  I had

19     to go down stairs to the basement where there were isolation cells and

20     bathrooms where we would bathe.  I was taken before the same interrogator

21     who had interrogated me the last time in Nis.

22             As soon as I got in, I had to take my shoes off and kneel down

23     onto a beer crate.  He was beating me on the soles and wherever else he

24     could, but mostly on my soles.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note there is terrible

Page 3459

 1     background noise in the headphones.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was followed by my cousin,

 3     Ivo Culic, and Ilija Atkar [phoen].

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure about the name.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He then gave us a piece of paper

 6     and a pen.  Outside in the corridor he told me, Kneel down by that small

 7     window.  This is where you're going to write your confession.  As for the

 8     others, they endured the same torture and then were taken out into the

 9     corridor next to me.

10             I had that piece of paper and a pencil.  There was this small

11     window by me.  You couldn't see through it.  But there was this window

12     with a sill.  I heard -- let me say that they -- the military policemen

13     in Mitrovica belonged to the reserve force.  They were a bit older but

14     they were quite strong.  There I could hear noise coming from inside that

15     room.  They were beating a man and I could hear the noise of his

16     bones [as interpreted] breaking, and you could hear the blunt blows.  And

17     then one of the said, Now, there, enough is enough.  But the other one

18     replied, No, no, he's just pretending, as if to say, No, no he's just

19     pretending to be feeling bad.  We should go on beating him.  Then one of

20     the military policemen got out of that room and I recall his face.  He

21     was blonde and had a mustache.  He had a baton.  He approached me.  Beat

22     me on my -- kicked me on my back, and then I turned round and he told me,

23     You didn't hear anything.  You didn't see anything.  And he said the same

24     to the other two who were with me.  I later on learned that that young

25     lad who was being beaten died.  Apparently he hailed from Mitnica, though

Page 3460

 1     I'm not sure.

 2             At any rate, I was ordered to write my statement by that window

 3     purposefully so that I should hear how they were beating that young man.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just one transcript correction.  The witness did

 7     not mention the word "bones."  It is line 8, page 57.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is it the sentence where it said, "They were

 9     beating a man and I could hear the noise of his" --

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Bones.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- "bones breaking..."?

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  He didn't mention the word "bones," the word

13     "bones."

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Culic, you said, according to the record:

15             "They were beating a man and I could hear the noise of his," and

16     then a word, "... breaking."

17             What did you hear breaking?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard such a kick.  It was a blow

19     with a foot and it was a blunt blow.  You could hear how hard it was.

20     Maybe I wasn't clear.  It was a blunt blow.  It wasn't a slap.  And you

21     could hear how they were breaking him.  They were really breaking him up.

22     And I heard that the man died later.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed, Ms. Dennehy.

25             MS. DENNEHY:

Page 3461

 1        Q.   Mr. Culic, were you ever charged with a crime while you were

 2     detained as Sremska Mitrovica?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   Did you -- did you know of or ever hear of any sexual

 5     mistreatment that took place at Sremska Mitrovica?

 6        A.   When I was in Mitrovica, I did not hear of any sexual crimes.

 7     When I was released from Serbian prisons, when I met up with my

 8     colleagues, I heard that they sexually ill-treated a woman called Manda,

 9     who was in the isolation cell.  This was down to two military policemen,

10     and the following morning when their commander came on duty he punished

11     them.  Quite a few people heard that because they were close to the

12     isolation cell where that Manda was.

13        Q.   How were the prisoners tried in solitary confinement in the

14     isolation cells?

15        A.   My friend who was also in an isolation cell said that it depended

16     on the kind of order they had.  Sometimes they had a special order to

17     come and ill-treat you.  He said that he would spend ten or 15 days in

18     the isolation cell where he was more heavily beaten than elsewhere.  In

19     any case, while he was in the isolation cell he was beaten more heavily,

20     and then he would returned to the common room with everything else.

21        Q.   Who did Pero Gojon see while he was held at Sremska Mitrovica?

22        A.   My friend, Pero Gojon, was an inmate.  He saw Goran Hadzic.  He

23     entered the room.  He stepped about a metre, two metres into the room,

24     and there were some three or four people with him wearing military

25     uniforms.  He said that he would have them all returned to Vukovar where

Page 3462

 1     they would be put on trial.

 2             Let me continue.  After the war, I spoke to Josip Tomasic, the

 3     commander of the defence of Sajmiste.  He was one of those who had spent

 4     some time in the isolation cell.  He told me that Goran Hadzic visited

 5     him, used very vulgar words when talking to him, and he told him that he,

 6     himself, would take him back to Vukovar to be tried.

 7        Q.   You said that:  My friend Pero Gojon saw Goran Hadzic.  Where

 8     specifically did your friend Pero see Goran Hadzic?

 9        A.   Pero Gojon saw him in the room where he was imprisoned.  I asked

10     him how that transpired, and he said he entered the room, he stepped

11     perhaps one or two metres into the room, and he told him that he would

12     have them returned to Vukovar to be tried.  He didn't enter my room, but

13     I know that the other people said that Goran Hadzic did come and did

14     visit them in their rooms.  That was the story that was told amongst

15     ourselves.

16        Q.   And when you say Goran Hadzic entered the rooms, where were these

17     rooms?  What detention facility were these rooms at or in?

18        A.   In Mitrovica, it was a three-storey building with rooms, each of

19     them contained between 80 and 120 prisoners.  I don't know how many rooms

20     he visited, but I know that people said that he did enter some of the

21     rooms and that he repeated one and the same thing, and that was that they

22     would all be returned to Vukovar where they would stand trial.

23             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I now ask that Exhibit 4809.6 - that's at

24     tab 18 - be shown.

25        Q.   Mr. Culic, you'll shortly see a video played on the screen in

Page 3463

 1     front of you.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Goran Hadzic:  This is the first

 4     session of the government held in our future capitol of our Serb region

 5     of Slavonija, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Regarding the conclusions,

 6     apart from the ones related to the mobilisation of life and establish of

 7     more or less normal situation, there is one basic conclusion:  And that

 8     is the Ustasha prisoners with blood on their hands must not leave the

 9     territory of the Serb region of Slavonija, Baranja, and Western Srem.

10     They cannot be driven to Serbia since Serbia is the state which is not at

11     war.  Also the troops that assisted in the capturing, those were not

12     soldiers.  They were the paramilitary formations.  They can only be put

13     on trial by the people here, that is the people of our Serb region, which

14     is recognised, which has its court.  We even have a second-instance

15     court.  The third-instance might eventually be on the federal level, the

16     Yugoslav level, but we have our region court and our municipal court.

17     Consequently, we have agreed with the military authorities that the

18     Ustasha remain in some of our camps here in the vicinity of Vukovar.

19     Since one group was already taken to Sremska Mitrovica, I undertook the

20     task to return these people here, if they can be named people at all, to

21     return them and to have them put on trial to find out which of them are

22     guilty.

23             "Journalist:  How do you estimate the total number of those

24     members of the Croatian paramilitary formations?  There is different data

25     available, two hundred surrendered two nights ago, approximately 1.000

Page 3464

 1     today in the Borovo complex.  What number are we talking about?

 2             "Goran Hadzic:  I believe that the number is close to 3.000 of

 3     mainly uniformed Ustashas, although there are still many hiding among the

 4     civilians.  However, there are many honest people there as well.  Our

 5     primary task is to investigate everything and not to let anyone who is

 6     not guilty to get hurt or be harassed.  It is better to have one culprit

 7     slip through than to harm someone innocent.  That is our task.  There is

 8     a law and police and all bodies here.  So we will work on preventing any

 9     persecution of the innocent people.

10             "Journalist:  How is the establishment of the civilian rule in

11     Vukovar going on, briefly?

12             "Goran Hadzic:  Well, today we made the first step.  We have been

13     preparing for this event."

14             MS. DENNEHY:

15        Q.   Mr. Culic, do you recognise the man who appeared in the video in

16     front of you?

17        A.   I do.

18        Q.   Who is the man that appeared in the video?

19        A.   Goran Hadzic.

20        Q.   And when Mr. Hadzic in the video said:

21             "I undertook the task of bringing those people back, if we can

22     call them people, we shall bring them back and put them on trial and

23     pronounce the guilty parties."

24             Are those sentiments similar to those that you heard from

25     Pero Gojon and Josip Tomasic when they heard Hadzic speak at

Page 3465

 1     Sremska Mitrovica?

 2        A.   When Pero Gojon said that Goran Hadzic had entered their room,

 3     did not mention bad words being used.  But Josip Tomasic also told me

 4     that he had been called names, insulted, and that he had told him that he

 5     personally would bring him back to Vukovar to be put on trial.

 6     Pero -- Tomasic was in the isolation cell, whereas Pero Gojon was in a

 7     big room with another hundred or so people listening to that

 8     conversation.

 9             MS. DENNEHY:  Can I ask that this 65 ter 4809.6 be admitted into

10     evidence.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit P1417.  Thank you.

13             MS. DENNEHY:

14        Q.   Mr. Culic, what happened to you on the 22nd of May, 1992?

15        A.   On the 22nd of May, there was an exchange.  At 3.00 in the

16     morning, military policemen entered.  We got up with our heads bowed.  We

17     were not supposed to look at them.  And then they called our names.  The

18     names of those of us who were supposed to go home.  My name was called.

19     I took my belongings.  We got into the hallway, and they prepared us to

20     enter the courtyard single file.  They lined us up against the wall, and

21     then again they called our names to see whether we were all there.  We

22     got on buses but we were first searched to see if I had any scribblings,

23     drawings, anything written down.  I had a wedding ring.  I hid it under

24     my tongue to make sure that they didn't take it away.

25             We got on buses and then we were slowly driven to Lipovac to be

Page 3466

 1     exchanged.  That's where we were indeed exchanged.  And then we crossed

 2     over to Croatia.  That was the happiest day of my life.  Whenever I think

 3     of that day, I feel that sense of relief in my soul and in my heart.

 4        Q.   Mr. Culic, how has your detention affected your health?

 5        A.   It had a huge effect.  I changed.  But I still have to function.

 6     I still have to rejoice in the little life that I have left.  I was

 7     imprisoned while I was still young.  Those were supposed to be the most

 8     beautiful months of my life.  I feel regret, a deep feeling of regret

 9     that I had to suffer that lot.  And if I suffer some health problems,

10     people who surround me do not understand -- my children, my wife, they

11     don't understand what I went through.  For example, I watch a movie and

12     all of a sudden I -- I start thinking about things.  Sometimes I even

13     think that I must have done something wrong to suffer like that.  I tend

14     to forgive everybody who ill-treated me because I am a good person, but

15     my biggest crime is that I love my homeland.  I also suffered

16     financially.  My house was burnt down.  Those people that I knew before,

17     they were no longer there.  The situation is different.  We have an

18     independent and free Croatian state, but the political situation is such

19     that I am not happy.  I am not satisfied.  I am concerned for the future

20     of my homeland.  There are so many things that I could tell you.  This

21     was just some of the things.

22             MS. DENNEHY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my

23     questions for now.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Dennehy.

25             Mr. Culic.


Page 3467

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Are you able to continue?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.  Yes.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Gosnell, cross-examination.

 6             MR. GOSNELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gosnell:

 8        Q.   Mr. Culic, my name is Christopher Gosnell.  I represent

 9     Mr. Hadzic here.  I am going to have a few questions for you, not very

10     many.  If at any time my questions are not clear or you wish me to

11     clarify or elaborate, please ask me to do that and I will do so.  Do you

12     understand?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And if at any time you wish to take a break, please let me know,

15     let Mr. President know, and I am sure that can be accommodated.  Do you

16     understand that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   Now you at the end of your testimony just described Pero Gojon

19     and Josip Tomasic describing the words of Mr. Hadzic to them.  Am I

20     correct in understanding that it was Mr. Tomasic himself who told you

21     what Mr. Hadzic had said; is that right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And no one else told you what words were spoken to Mr. Tomasic on

24     that occasion; is that right?

25        A.   I heard from some other people as well, but I don't know them as

Page 3468

 1     well as I know Tomasic.  I knew him from before the war.  I knew him

 2     during the war and after the war.  He lived on the same street as me.

 3        Q.   The only person who told you that Mr. Hadzic used vulgar language

 4     was Mr. Tomasic; is that right?

 5        A.   Only Mr. Tomasic.

 6        Q.   And in Mr. Gojon's case, he described a situation where

 7     Mr. Hadzic enters a room not only with Mr. Gojon but also with other

 8     inmates; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you were shown a video of Mr. Hadzic speaking.  And I'd like

11     to ask you whether, in particular, you heard anyone tell you, any of your

12     fellow inmates tell you, that Mr. Hadzic had said, for example, that

13     there are many honest people here as well.  Did he say that to the

14     inmates from what you were told?

15        A.   No, he did not.

16        Q.   And did any of your fellow inmates tell you that he had said:

17     "It's better to let one culprit slip through than to harm someone who is

18     incident"?

19        A.   This is not the way we talked.  People only said that he was seen

20     in Mitrovica, that he entered some of the rooms.  We didn't qualify him

21     as being either good or bad.  And when I say that, I mean Mr. Hadzic.

22        Q.   Did you ever hear whether any of your fellow inmates at

23     Sremska Mitrovica were ever tried by the Serb authorities in Vukovar?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   You testified at page 23 earlier today that Ivica Banovic and a

Page 3469

 1     certain Filkovic went to Borovo Selo to negotiate with what you described

 2     as "a highly ranking JNA officer and Arkan."  Do you remember that

 3     testimony?

 4        A.   I remember that I said that.  I saw that on HTV and on Novi Sad

 5     television.  There is a video-clip of that.  That was recorded.

 6        Q.   Do you know when that occurred?

 7        A.   Sir, I came here to The Hague Tribunal.  I did not prepare myself

 8     specially.  But this is the truth.  I was in prison but that was on the

 9     19th.  In the evening, they asked for people who would go to negotiate.

10     I didn't know when at the time.  I didn't know that they we want to

11     Borovo Selo.  I figured it on TV later on that they went to Borovo Selo,

12     that they were there at that moment, and that the three of them went.  I

13     know that.  I know Ivica Banovic personally, and I know Mr. Filkovic, I

14     know him personally, and as for that policeman from Varazdin, I don't

15     know him.  I know the other two, however.

16        Q.   That's fine, sir.  And just so you understand, I am not

17     suggesting to you that this isn't true.  I simply wanted to clarify the

18     date.  And you've done that.  Thank you very much.

19             Do you know anything more about this meeting that happened

20     between the representatives of the Croats side and Mr. Arkan and the

21     highly ranking JNA officer?

22        A.   I know when they were discussing the negotiations they mentioned

23     Banovic, Filkovic, and that policeman from Varazdin.  Later on I did not

24     see them.  But I know that they went on to negotiate.  I did not see them

25     later.  I spoke to them after I had come back from the camp.  That

Page 3470

 1     meeting exists as a video-clip that was aired on television.

 2        Q.   I have not had benefit of seeing that video.  Can you help me

 3     understand or please tell us what was said during that meeting?

 4        A.   I heard the sound on television, but we could not hear the

 5     conversation itself.  But it was said that the representatives of the

 6     Croatian defence council had arrived to negotiate the terms of surrender.

 7     That's all I heard.  I could not hear the exact words of their

 8     conversation.

 9        Q.   And was Arkan sitting together with this highly ranked JNA

10     officer during this negotiation?

11        A.   Arkan was sitting a bit to the side, and the person who

12     negotiated was the JNA officer.  He could be seen in conversation with

13     the representatives of the Croatian army, those lads of ours.  And you

14     can see that in the video-clip.

15        Q.   And aside from this highly ranking JNA officer and Arkan, was

16     there anyone else from the Serb side?

17        A.   I can't remember.  I really can't remember whether there was

18     anybody else.  Maybe there was another person or perhaps not.  I was more

19     interested in -- in seeing my own friends who were negotiating on our

20     side.

21        Q.   Earlier today you described the moment when you were in the

22     process of surrendering from the Borovo Selo shoe factory, and do I

23     understand correctly that you had a conversation with a JNA colonel or

24     lieutenant-colonel on that occasion?

25        A.   I started a conversation.  A young tank commander, a lieutenant,

Page 3471

 1     came on his own and entered the courtyard.  We gathered around him.  He

 2     gave us cigarettes.  And then I asked him -- or, rather, I told him that

 3     there was a fire cistern that was cleaned and all the wounded were taken

 4     away, but there was another cistern full of water.  I asked him to allow

 5     me to go and fetch it, because there were a lot of people in the

 6     basement.  They were thirsty.  There was no water.  That was the way to

 7     get water to him.

 8        Q.   You testified at page 23 today that as you were in front of the

 9     shoe factory, you said:

10             "There were all sorts of formations but their numbers were not

11     large."

12             And I believe that in using the word "formations" you were

13     referring to paramilitary formations.  Is that a correct understanding on

14     my part?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you said, "... their numbers were not large."

17             Were there more JNA forces there at that time than the

18     paramilitary forces?

19        A.   I can't answer.  I was not paying attention.  I was afraid.  It

20     was not easy, you know.  I was not interested in numbers.  I just tried

21     to answer the best I could from recollection.

22        Q.   And you do recollect that at some point there was a

23     lieutenant-colonel from the JNA who came and spoke to you about

24     surrendering.  Do you remember that?

25        A.   The lieutenant-colonel, accompanied by two or three military

Page 3472

 1     policemen, came to a gate leading to the Borovo complex.  We were in the

 2     yard within the compound.  We approached him, but I didn't speak, I was

 3     only present.  Zeljko Jukic asked him what was to become of us.  As they

 4     spoke they realised that they knew each other, because Zeljko Jukic was

 5     under him when he was serving his compulsory military service in

 6     Novi Sad.

 7             MR. GOSNELL:  Can I kindly request the assistance of the

 8     Prosecution with a video that I know they have on their computer and they

 9     have kindly offered to assist.  And I would ask that P1413, which is

10     65 ter 4799.7, be put up.  And we can go straight to second 35 on this

11     video, please.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. GOSNELL:  If we could pause it there.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. GOSNELL:  I am not sure whether it's possible, but if we were

16     to go to 47:99.7, which I think is about a 36-second clip.  That might

17     make it easier.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. GOSNELL:

20        Q.   Is that the lieutenant-colonel who spoke to you?

21        A.   No.  That's not the man.

22        Q.   Did you see this man?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Do you know who this man is?

25        A.   I have no idea.

Page 3473

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  I'm done with that video.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, you've described for us in very great detail the --

 4     your movement from the shoe factory to Stajicevo and then Nis and then

 5     Sremska Mitrovica, and I just for a moment want to ask you about the

 6     buses that you were transported on.

 7             If I can just put a question to you, sir, it might make it a

 8     little bit easier.  Am I right in thinking you were transported on what

 9     you describe as civilian buses between the factory and Stajicevo?

10        A.   Since I --

11        Q.   Sir, just before you go into a long description, it could be

12     easier.  I will just put very simple question.  And if you wish, and if

13     it's possible, you don't need to recapitulate your previous testimony.

14     You can just say "yes" or "no," if you're comfortable with that.

15        A.   Well, I did observe that for the most part they had civilian

16     license plates.  But near Stajicevo, half of them had military licenses

17     plates.  Since I was driver when I was doing my military service, I am

18     familiar with what their license plates are like.

19        Q.   Let's just start for the moment with the buses that took you from

20     the Borovo Selo factory to Stajicevo.  Do I understand that those were by

21     all appearances civilian buses?

22        A.   They were civilian vehicles, judging by their license plates.

23        Q.   And by their paint -- and by the paint job as well?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And the drivers were civilian?

Page 3474

 1        A.   The drivers were civilian but the two military policemen weren't.

 2        Q.   Well, that was going to be my next question.  Do I understand

 3     correctly that there -- you had a civilian driver and then you had two

 4     JNA military policemen escorting you on the bus?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And were there two JNA APCs escorting the convoy of buses?

 7        A.   There was an APC ahead, at the head of the motorcade, and there

 8     was one at the rear that followed us but I don't know how far it followed

 9     us because they were afraid that fire might be open at us as we were

10     passing through Serb villages.

11        Q.   And the one journey that you didn't describe in detail in your

12     itinerary during this time was the journey between the Stajicevo prison

13     and the Nis prison.  Am I correct in understanding that you were again

14     placed on a civilian bus for the journey between Stajicevo and Nis?

15        A.   Perhaps I forgot to mention some things, but just as we travelled

16     to Stajicevo we travelled to Nis.  There were two military policemen as

17     well.  Now, I think that on our trip to Nis, half of the buses were

18     military because they had military license plates.

19        Q.   So does that mean that half of the buses had military license

20     plates and half of the buses had civilian license plates?

21        A.   Well, I don't know about half.  I may have seen one or two

22     license plates that were military.  I didn't really keep count.  I didn't

23     think plates were important.  But I did see that so I know.

24        Q.   The percentages, indeed, are not important.  Some of the buses

25     had civilian license plates and some of the buses many military license

Page 3475

 1     plates; correct?

 2        A.   [In English] Yes.

 3        Q.   And you again had military policemen inside the bus escorting

 4     you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the drivers again, were they civilian?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And then the third bus journey, from Nis --

 9        A.   Excuse --

10        Q.   Sorry.

11        A.   [Interpretation] Excuse me.  My bus had a civilian driver but I

12     can't vouch for the others.  I know that the driver driving my bus was

13     civilian.  I don't know about the others.  I didn't dare look, and I'm

14     not a hundred per cent sure how many there were.

15        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  And then the third bus journey

16     from Nis to Sremska Mitrovica.  Do again we have -- well, first of all,

17     did the buses appear -- by their appearance, did they appear to be

18     civilian buses?

19        A.   The buses appear to be civilian.  It was night-time when we were

20     boarding the buses.  It was morning but it was still dark.

21        Q.   And again you have civilian drivers and JNA military police

22     escorts inside the bus; is that correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know whether and when your family was informed that you

25     were being detained?

Page 3476

 1        A.   They were aware of my detention and they knew that I had been

 2     wounded.  It was reported in the papers that I was wounded as a fire

 3     fighter.  I don't know how that information came to be published in the

 4     papers.  They only knew that I had been wounded and it was only later,

 5     two or three days later, that they became aware of the fact that I was in

 6     the camp.

 7        Q.   And you've described your interrogation in the Nis prison.  And I

 8     won't ask you to -- to describe that again.  I just have one detail that

 9     I would like to clarify with you.  During the seven or eight hours that

10     you were being, in effect, beaten, was the interrogator doing the beating

11     continuously or was it intermittent?

12        A.   It was intermittent.  He was present in my room and would then go

13     to other rooms.  There were three more rooms.  And he was taking turns.

14     And then he would come back and he was -- he seemed to have been looking

15     to get some sort of truth out of us and I.  Can I repeat what I just

16     said?  Can I repeat my answer?

17        Q.   I think something at the end may have been missed.  So yes,

18     please feel free.

19        A.   My interrogation, that last long interrogation, unfolded this

20     way:  There were first the beatings, then I was asked to write a

21     statement.  Then he went out of the room and would be away for 15 minutes

22     or half an hour.  There were three of them and they took turns.  It's

23     very difficult for me to explain this now.  At one point there were be

24     three of them, then there would be two of them, then only one would

25     return.  So they circled from room to room, but there was a lot of

Page 3477

 1     beating in between.

 2        Q.   Can I take you back to the siege or the battle of Vukovar.  When,

 3     to your recollection, would you say that the battle or the siege actually

 4     started?

 5        A.   The battle for Vukovar started on the 2nd of May, 1991, when the

 6     massacre against the Croatian police occurred in Borovo Selo.

 7        Q.   From then onwards in your -- to your recollection, were

 8     barricades set up by Croatian forces to control access to the city?

 9        A.   As far as I know and as far as I followed and was able to follow,

10     it was first the rebel Serbs who erected barricades in the villages

11     surrounding Vukovar where they were in the majority.  They were the first

12     ones to make these barricades.

13        Q.   Well, sir, I'm not interested in who was first.  I'm just

14     interested at this stage in trying to understand when those barricades

15     went up on the Croatian side.  Do you say that it was after the incident

16     in early May in Borovo Selo?

17        A.   Sir, the barricades were erected on two occasions.  The Serbs

18     erected the barricades for the first time and then removed them.  I can't

19     tell you when it was that they erected them for the second time.

20        Q.   Let me make sure that I'm clear.  I am not interested in the Serb

21     barricades at all.  I am just interested in knowing when it was that the

22     Croatian barricades went up to control access to Vukovar.  Do you know

23     when that was?

24        A.   Sir, I was a driver in a professional fire brigade.  I had

25     30 head of sheep at home.  I was busy all the time.  When the Croats

Page 3478

 1     placed the barricades is something I don't know.  Nobody talked to me

 2     about it.  None of the Croats ever consulted me.  Perhaps they erected

 3     those at Mitnica but not at Brsadin or perhaps at this place but not at

 4     the other.  I don't know.

 5        Q.   And can you remind us when it was that you started to

 6     continuously carry a gun as part of an organised defence of the city of

 7     Vukovar?

 8        A.   I began to continuously carry a gun after the 5th of October when

 9     I left Vukovar and my work-place.  I was no longer able to appear for

10     work.  There were shells landing.  It was a long way away.  Things grew

11     more and more difficult.  And I stayed at the line near my home.  We

12     stood guard there.  That was when I continuously carried weapons because

13     I was at the front line.

14        Q.   So you weren't doing so at any time in August or September 1991?

15        A.   I was occasionally, but when I went to work I didn't carry a

16     weapon.  I would only carry one when I was at home at the front line, at

17     Cerge [phoen].

18        Q.   And when did you start to occasionally do that?  When I say "do

19     that," I mean, when did you start to occasionally assist in an organised

20     fashion defending the city of Vukovar?

21        A.   I began carrying sometime in June or July.  I am not sure.

22        Q.   And after the battle for Vukovar started, were there offers by

23     the JNA of terms of surrender to the Croatian forces there?

24        A.   I don't know about that, but would that we -- would that they had

25     offered this.

Page 3479

 1        Q.   Well, you -- the last part of your answer is:

 2             "... would that they had offered this."

 3             Are you suggesting that terms of surrender were not offered by

 4     the JNA during the battle of Vukovar?

 5        A.   From my understanding of your question, you said at the start

 6     that they offered a surrender.  I don't know.  They were offering the

 7     surrender near the end, over the loudspeaker.  But in the area where I

 8     was, nobody was offering us anything.

 9        Q.   Well, let me be more precise:  Between July and November 1991,

10     prior to the ultimate surrender of Croat forces in Vukovar, had the JNA

11     offered terms of surrender to Croat forces there?

12        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't a commander.  I don't know.  I wasn't

13     involved in that.  I was just an ordinary person there.

14        Q.   But even as an ordinary person, wouldn't regular infantry

15     soldiers have been informed about such matters?

16        A.   Honourable sir, there were so many shells landing that the only

17     thing that mattered to me was find refugee in the shelter.  There was no

18     communication, no contact.  It was very difficult to hear about many of

19     these things.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Dennehy.

21             MS. DENNEHY:  Mr. President, I would like to make clear:  The

22     witness has noted that he was not part of any Croat forces prior to the

23     5th of October and the Defence is suggesting that he may have been.  The

24     witness has said that until the 5th of October, he was part of the fire

25     brigade and nothing else in that regard.

Page 3480

 1             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, that's a matter of interpretation of what the

 2     witness said, and I would disagree with that interpretation.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:

 5        Q.   You never heard anyone from the JNA side calling with megaphones

 6     for surrender of Croat forces at any time between July and November 1991

 7     prior to the ultimate surrender?

 8        A.   I didn't, and even if I had, it was not my decision to make.  It

 9     was the decision to be made by the command in Vukovar, wherever they were

10     over there.

11        Q.   I fully understand that.  But was there any discussion amongst

12     soldiers that maybe surrender would be a good idea under the

13     circumstances?

14        A.   I don't know.  We didn't discuss it.  Simply, I can't answer that

15     question.  I don't know.

16        Q.   Did you ever hear any civilians express the wish to leave

17     Vukovar?

18        A.   All of us wanted to leave, but we weren't able to because we were

19     blocked from all sides.  We were afraid.

20        Q.   Did you ever hear whether there were any discussions about a

21     cease-fire or some kind of truce to allow civilians to leave?

22        A.   I didn't hear that.  I didn't listen to the radio.  I didn't

23     watch the television.  There was no electricity.  There was no running

24     water.  There was just the water from wells.  And being the ordinary

25     person that I was and in the area where I was, I didn't hear that.


Page 3481

 1        Q.   Sir, thank you very much for coming here and for your testimony.

 2             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 4             Is there re-direct, Ms. Dennehy?

 5             MS. DENNEHY:  No, Mr. President.  There is not.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  There is no re-direct.  Thank you.

 7                           Questioned by the Court:

 8             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] I have a question for you,

 9     Witness.  After your detention in Stajicevo, you were transferred to the

10     penitentiary centre in Nis and you arrived there in the middle of the

11     night.

12             Today, on the record, on page 49, line 10 through 12, you provide

13     a precision.  You say that the military police who guarded you, on the

14     following day, gave you military clothes, the SMB or the olive-drab

15     uniforms of the former JNA and that they shaved your head.  And then on

16     the 20th of February, 1992, when you left Nis to go to Sremska Mitrovica,

17     you had to return your military police uniforms and you had to put on

18     civilian clothes.  You will find that on today's transcript.

19             My question is this:  Why were you given the military uniforms of

20     the JNA to wear while you were detained in Nis?

21        A.   I really don't know why.  I never gave it a second thought.  My

22     only thought was to leave that place at least half normal, to be able to

23     go on functioning as a human being.  That was all that was on my mind, to

24     be honest.

25             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Very well.  In the detention

Page 3482

 1     centre -- or, rather, in all the other detention centres where you were

 2     detained, was the practice the same?  Did they give you military uniforms

 3     to wear everywhere?

 4        A.   No, they did not.  No.

 5             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Culic, thank you very much for coming to

 7     The Hague and assist the Tribunal.  This is the end of your testimony.

 8     You're now released as a witness.  The Court Usher will escort you out of

 9     court, and we wish you a safe journey home.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Friday,

15                           8th day of March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.