Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3535

 1                           Monday, 8 April 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good afternoon to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom.

 7             Madam Registrar, would you call the case, please.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  This is case

 9     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances starting

11     with the Prosecution, please.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

13     Greetings to counsel and to everyone else in and around the courtroom.

14     For the Prosecution Douglas Stringer, Alexis Demirdjian, Case Manager

15     Thomas Laugel, our intern Ms. Marija Bukovac.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Hadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any

22     interpretation.  I apologise.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's try to take care of that.

24             It's okay now?  Thank you.

25             Mr. Stringer, I think there are a few procedural issues or


Page 3536

 1     matters you want to raise.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian has those.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian will take care of it.  Okay.

 4     Sorry.

 5             Mr. Demirdjian.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  You may have seen

 7     some of the e-mail circulation in the last few days.  Let me begin with

 8     one of the oral applications that I wished to make, and I've consulted

 9     with my learned friends from the Defence, and I believe they'll be able

10     to state their position.

11             First of all, in relation to a sketch or a layout of the

12     Vukovar Hospital which we've proposed as a 65 ter 6405, we wish to use

13     this image which was taken last year at the hospital, and it basically is

14     a sketch of the hospital showing what it was like in 1991.  I spoke to my

15     learned friend Mr. Gosnell about the matter, and I believe he has no

16     objections provided that we lay the foundations in advance and ask the

17     witness to describe the hospital before displaying the image.  So that's

18     the first application I have, to add the document to the 65 ter list.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  No objection to

21     using the document provided that -- and the issue is annotations.  As

22     long as any annotations that are on the document are first raised with

23     the witness and the witness attests to the information in the

24     annotations.  Provided that's done, we wouldn't have any objection to the

25     document being admitted after.


Page 3537

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we can -- we can add it to the exhibit list

 2     and then see what happens and whether it can be tendered or not.

 3             MR. GOSNELL:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I do understand you correctly.  So granted as

 5     prayed.  The document can be added to the exhibit list.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 7             You may also recall that on the 28th of March we filed our eighth

 8     motion to amend the 65 ter list of exhibits.  In that motion, there is a

 9     document that I wish to use with the next witness, and that is

10     65 ter 6402.  These are minutes of a joint commission for tracing missing

11     persons and mortal remains of the 2nd of April, 1992.  There are similar

12     minutes of the joint commission meetings on our 65 ter list.  This is one

13     of those that we obtained recently from Osijek I believe the county

14     court.  We obtained those documents at the end of March and we filed a

15     motion on the 28th.  I believe that the Defence has not had a moment yet

16     to respond to this issue.  I spoke to Mr. Gosnell about the matter.  I

17     think he wishes to take some time today to take a look at it, and in

18     principle I believe there are no objections but I believe he wants the

19     rest of the afternoon to take a look at this document.  So that's one of

20     them.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So this would mean that we would take a decision

22     tomorrow after having heard --

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- Mr. Gosnell.  Is that okay with you?

25             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes.  To put the matter shortly, we reserve our


Page 3538

 1     position for the moment.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  And -- great.  There's also the

 4     issue of the faxes and letters that the next witness had sent throughout

 5     the time of the conflict, and essentially in relation to those, you may

 6     have seen an e-mail I sent out this weekend proposing that we display a

 7     number them and show them through the witness without having to go

 8     through each and every one of them.  I believe there's around 40 --

 9     roughly around 40 of them.  I would like to use perhaps about 15 to 20 of

10     them in court with the witness, and for the rest of them, considering

11     that the content is pretty much similar in substance except that it's

12     different dates, we wish to propose to tender them after having shown a

13     certain number of them.  And again, I will leave Mr. Gosnell to state his

14     position, but I believe there's no objection to this.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

16             MR. GOSNELL:  That's correct.  There's no objection to that

17     procedure.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Nothing to decide for the moment I would

19     say.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's correct, Your Honours.  And there's one

21     last matter.  During the course of the weekend as we were proofing

22     Dr. Bosanac, she provide us a DVD, and this DVD contains handwritten --

23     there are scans of handwritten notebooks.  These notebooks were compiled

24     by one of the nurses at the Vukovar Hospital, and according to

25     Dr. Bosanac they were taken by the Yugoslav People's Army when they took


Page 3539

 1     over the hospital on the 19th or 20th of November.

 2             These documents were not available to the Vukovar Hospital until

 3     last year.  Apparently a meeting was held between the Serbian and

 4     Croatian government in the fall of 2011, during which these notebooks

 5     were hand over, and only a year later the Vukovar Hospital was able to

 6     obtain these notebooks.  So the DVD contains scanned versions of these

 7     notebooks, and at this stage considering that we received it only a

 8     couple of days before the witness testifies, I do not wish to get into

 9     the substance.  However, I would like to have your leave to show the

10     documents on the screen to the witness for her to identify them, simply

11     identify them, and later this week we will file a motion seeking leave to

12     add these documents to the list, and we could also hear from the Defence

13     at that stage, and perhaps we will tender them through a bar table

14     motion.  So I'm kind of doing the opposite of MFIing a document.  I'm

15     asking her to identify the material with are a view to adding it to the

16     list and having them tendered at a later stage.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

18             MR. GOSNELL:  We do object to this.  This is in effect trying to

19     MFI documents before they're even on the 65 ter list.  We're dealing with

20     document -- there have been a great number of documents over the years of

21     this nature that have been disclosed.  It's a great burden on the Defence

22     to go through these documents and now we have yet another iteration.  I

23     don't know precisely why these documents would only have come to light

24     late in last year.  There's been no explanation, no information about

25     that.


Page 3540

 1             So given the state of information at the moment, we object to --

 2     we object to using it, first of all prior to it being on the 65 ter list,

 3     and in due course, we probably will object to it being put on the 65 ter

 4     list.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, why -- why would you like to show

 6     them to the witness before a decision has been taken to add them to the

 7     exhibit list?

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I could ask questions to the

 9     witness in abstract, asking her, "Did you provide us a CD?  Does this CD

10     contain such-and-such material?"  That could be done.  I just thought

11     that for purposes of identification it might be relevant for Your Honours

12     to see the document and for her to identify this is what she provided us

13     over the weekend.  That is all I wish to do at this stage.  But if you

14     believe that identification is not necessary --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm just trying to -- I'm just trying to

16     understand your motion requesting the addition to the exhibit list would

17     come in when?  Would the witness be away?

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, if -- I can try to get this done

19     before the witness leaves.  I cannot promise this at this stage, but if

20     it would help in this matter, I can make an effort to file the motion

21     tomorrow afternoon perhaps.  And I believe the witness will still be here

22     until Wednesday at least.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, let's try to get this right and

25     have the request to add it to the exhibit list before the witness is


Page 3541

 1     asked anything about the documents.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well, Your Honours.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would that be all, Mr. Demirdjian?

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  We can call our next witness, Dr. Bosanac,

 5     GH-038.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness can be brought in.

 7             While we are waiting for the witness, I would like to instruct

 8     the OTP -- can you -- can you wait just one moment, please.

 9             In the last few months the Trial Chamber has dealt with a variety

10     of motions of the Prosecution for the admission of various items of

11     documentary evidence.  Too often the documents being tendered by the

12     Prosecution are either not available on e-court or otherwise not ready

13     for determination of the Trial Chamber.  For example, missing

14     translations.

15             The Trial Chamber has had to expend an inordinate amount of time

16     identifying these problems, bringing them to the attention of the

17     Prosecution, and then monitoring the Prosecution response to the

18     identified deficiencies.  The Chamber recalls that it requested the

19     Prosecution via e-mail in October last year to ensure that its standard

20     documents are translated and made available on e-court.  However, this

21     situation still persists.  It is not the responsibility of the

22     Trial Chamber to remedy the deficiencies of the Prosecution in this area.

23     The Trial Chamber again directs the Prosecution to ensure any document it

24     is tendering as evidence is uploaded to e-court, translated, and in all

25     respects ready for a determination on its admission.  An e-mail


Page 3542

 1     communication will follow shortly regarding the latest situation wherein

 2     tendered documents are not ready for a determination of the

 3     Trial Chamber.  Thank you.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'm sorry, Your Honours.  I don't have access to

 5     the e-court.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's try to solve that problem.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, in the meanwhile can I proceed

 9     with the solemn declaration for this witness?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, of course.  I'll follow the transcript.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             Good afternoon, Madam Witness.  Thank you for coming to The Hague

13     to assist the Tribunal.  First of all, can you hear me in a language you

14     understand?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Good afternoon.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please tell us your first name and

17     family name, your date of birth, and your ethnicity, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Vesna Bosanac.  I was

19     born on the 9th of March, 1949.  I am Croat by ethnicity.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  You are about to read the solemn

21     declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

22     must point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself to the penalty

23     of perjury should you give false or untruthful information to the

24     Tribunal.  Could you now read the solemn declaration the usher will give

25     to you.

 


Page 3543

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 4                           WITNESS:  VESNA BOSANAC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, your witness.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

 9        Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Bosanac.  I see that the chair you're sitting

10     on doesn't seem to be very comfortable.

11             Could we have some assistance from the usher, please.

12        A.   The chair is too high for me.  It has to be lower down a little.

13        Q.   Yes.  Is that better?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   Very well.  Dr. Bosanac, I will start with my questions, and if

16     at any moment a question is not clear, please don't hesitate to ask me to

17     repeat it, and as I told you, we'll be going until 7.00 today, so if you

18     get tired or need any break you can tell us or you can address the

19     Judges.

20             First of all, could you tell us what is your current occupation.

21        A.   I am the CEO of the hospital in Vukovar, and I also treat

22     children.  This is my profession.  I'm a paediatrician.

23        Q.   And could you give the Judges a brief description of your

24     educational background.

25        A.   I completed grammar school in Vukovar, and I graduated from the


Page 3544

 1     school of medicine in Zagreb.  In 1981 I completed my residency in

 2     paediatric medicine, and then in 1983 I obtained my master's degree.

 3     From 1974, I worked in the medical centre in Vukovar, and in 1991, in the

 4     month of July, I was appointed the CEO of the medical centre.  From 1991

 5     to 1997, I worked in exile.  I was affiliated with the health care

 6     ministry, and then after 1997, after the peaceful reintegration, I

 7     returned to Vukovar, and I currently work there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell the Judges a little bit about the

 9     Vukovar Hospital.  When was the hospital built, and when did it start

10     functioning?

11        A.   The Vukovar Hospital was built in 1849.  That was the first time

12     it was developed.  At that time, it was a very small hospital.  It

13     occupied one part of the summer house of Count Eltz, and then it was

14     extended in 1939.  It was operated by the Sisters of Mercy from Djakovo.

15     In its present form it was developed in 1974.  During the war, it was

16     significantly damaged, practically destroyed.  It was refurbished in

17     2011.  It was redeveloped, and it has assumed its present shape and form.

18        Q.   And just to be clear, the Vukovar Hospital, is that also referred

19     to as the Vukovar Medical Centre?

20        A.   The Vukovar Medical Centre functioned up until 1993, and then the

21     reform of the health care system started in Croatia whereby hospitals

22     were separated from medical centres so that now the Vukovar Hospital is a

23     hospital, whereas the outpatient clinics which provide primary care all

24     belong to the Vukovar health centre.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Judges how many buildings were


Page 3545

 1     located in the hospital's compound.

 2        A.   Within the compound there is a total of five buildings which

 3     accommodate patients.  Two of them are main hospital buildings featuring

 4     beds and departments where the patients are treated.  We call them the

 5     new hospital building and the old building.  Moreover, there is a

 6     department for physical therapy, there is an outpatient clinic where the

 7     patients are examined, there is a pathology and cytology department, as

 8     well as the department which provides food for the patients.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Would I like to display an aerial image of this area.

10     It is 65 ter 6315, and that is at tab 109 of our list.

11             Doctor, in a moment I will ask you to annotate certain parts of

12     the image you'll see on the screen.  First of all, do you recognise this

13     area on the screen?

14        A.   Yes.  This is the hospital compound with the buildings and the

15     environs.

16        Q.   Very well.  With the assistance of the usher, I will ask you to

17     make some markings now.  Now, could you mark on this with the letter A

18     the new hospital building you mentioned earlier.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And with the letter B the old one.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Very well.  Now, we see some streets here.  Are you able to

23     situate them a little for us?

24        A.   This is one of the main streets.  It's called Zupanijska street.

25        Q.   Can you put the letter C for that one.


Page 3546

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   And what is the street below Zupanijska street?

 3        A.   This one here is called Gunduliceva street.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And for the record, you marked this with the letter

 5     D.

 6             Now between the old building and the new building, what is it

 7     that we see there?  It looks like a parking lot; is that right?

 8        A.   Well, it's a green surface, and there's a monument now.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Are there any buildings in here which belong to the

10     hospital?

11        A.   Yes, as I said before, there's this department for physical

12     therapy, and across the park there is the kitchen and the department of

13     pathology and cytology.  And behind that is an atomic shelter where we

14     spent most of our time during war working.

15        Q.   Would you mind marking these with individual letters following

16     the letter D.  E, F, G, et cetera.  Perhaps starting with the last one

17     you mentioned, the area where the atomic shelter was.  If you can mark

18     that with the letter E.

19        A.   There is an axis path from that yard which goes from the old

20     building to the new building.  Subterranean passage, in fact.

21        Q.   Very well.  And I believe that is sufficient for the time being.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I tender this image?

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 6315 as marked by the

25     witness will be Exhibit P1421.


Page 3547

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.   If I take you back to 1991, Dr. Bosanac, how many floors did the

 4     main building have at the time?

 5        A.   There was a basement, the ground floor, two floors, and a loft or

 6     attic which was not used by the hospital.

 7        Q.   And in relation to your office as of July 1991 as a director of

 8     the hospital, in which building was your office located?

 9        A.   For a while the administration building was outside the hospital

10     compound, across this street where the old hospital building is.

11     However, very early on in August, that building was completely destroyed

12     by the shelling, and then I moved my office to the underground floor of

13     the main hospital building.

14        Q.   Now, at the time in 1991, could you tell the Court how many rooms

15     were there in the main building, and what was the maximum number of

16     patients the hospital could have taken during peacetime?

17        A.   In the main building on those three floors that were in use, the

18     ground floor and the first and the second floor, there were 250 beds,

19     whereas in the old building we also had a high ground floor and two

20     storeys where we could put up in peacetime an additional 150 patients.

21     However, already back in August, the hospital was constantly targeted by

22     the shelling and bombing, so that from 15 August on, we were able to work

23     only in the basements.  It was too dangerous even in the higher ground

24     floor.

25        Q.   And could you tell the Court during peacetime how many staff


Page 3548

 1     members were working at the hospital?

 2        A.   One thousand and forty employees, but at that time we were all

 3     part of the medical centre.  There were the physicians, the nurses who

 4     worked in outpatient clinics, ambulances, et cetera.  So in total there

 5     were 1.040 employees.

 6        Q.   Now, you mentioned earlier that -- the shelling of mid-August.

 7     How did that shelling affect, if in any way, the number of staff members

 8     at the hospital?

 9        A.   Even before that, in June and in July, many employees left the

10     hospital.  It was the normal vacation time, but it coincided with the

11     beginning of the war.  Already on the 2nd of May, wartime began in

12     Vukovar.  In June and July, shells were falling on Borovo Naselje and the

13     Borovo factory, and many employees left their jobs.  Generally speaking,

14     there were many employees of all ethnicities in the hospital, Serbs,

15     Croats, Ruthenians.  Vukovar was a multi-ethnic town.  Nineteen

16     ethnicities were represented, but many, many left at that time.  Many

17     Serbs left, going across the Danube to Serbia.  A large number of Croats

18     left for other parts of Croatia where there was no war.  So that in

19     August only about 350 of us remained in the hospital, including the

20     medical staff and auxiliary staff also of all ethnicities.

21        Q.   You just mentioned that Vukovar had about what was 19 ethnic

22     groups.  Could you tell the Court which groups were represented -- well,

23     had the highest representation?

24        A.   According to the 1991 census, the city of Vukovar had a

25     population of 45.000, and the entire area around us, which is now the


Page 3549

 1     eastern part of the Vukovar-Srem county, it was then called Vukovar, it

 2     had 147.000 population.  Forty-seven per cent were Croats, around 35 or

 3     so per cent were Serbs, and the rest were different ethnicities,

 4     Ruthenians, Ukrainians, Slovaks.  There was also a group that declared

 5     themselves as Yugoslavs, and those were mainly people who were in mixed

 6     marriages or children of mixed marriages so that they declared themselves

 7     as Yugoslavs, and there were about 5 per cent of them in Vukovar.

 8        Q.   Now, prior to the conflict, can you describe to the Trial Chamber

 9     what was the relationship between those various ethnic groups?

10        A.   I worked as a paediatrician for many years there by that time,

11     and I can say that as I saw it, there were no inter-ethnic conflicts,

12     neither in the population at large or among the staff of the medical

13     centre.

14        Q.   Now, did that situation change at a certain point in time?

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian --

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours?

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- if you would allow me just one little

18     question.

19             Ms. Bosanac, how do you define one's ethnicity?  I mean, what

20     makes someone to be a Croat and what makes someone to be a Serb or

21     whatever?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to our regulations,

23     everyone determines their own ethnicity.  It's a matter of choice, and

24     it's usually linked to tradition.  If your family, your father, mother,

25     and other relatives are all Croats, then you declare yourself as a Croat.


Page 3550

 1     There are cases where the marriage was mixed between a Croat father and

 2     Serb mother.  The children of such a marriage would declare themselves as

 3     Croat or Serb or Yugoslav.  Other national minorities such as Ukrainians

 4     and Ruthenians also declared themselves as they chose according to their

 5     own tradition.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So that's how people declare themselves.  And how

 7     about other people defining someone?  Would you -- would you go to

 8     someone and ask him whether he defines himself as a Croat or a Serb, or

 9     are there other criteria that allows someone to determine the ethnicity

10     of someone else?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if I'll be able to

12     give you a precise sense to this question, but I heard there was some

13     regulations in the former Yugoslavia whereby in the registers of

14     population of registers of voters, ethnicity would be entered according

15     to where their fathers happen to be in a certain year.  That's something

16     I only heard about.  But in every census you would get a blank, a form,

17     where you would write down your name, surname, date and place of birth,

18     your ethnicity, your confession.  You can write all that, but you don't

19     have to.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But that's still what you do yourself about your

21     own ethnicity.  I mean, how -- how do you determine the ethnicity of your

22     neighbour, for instance?  How do you know he is a Croat or a Serb,

23     because he told you, because of his religion, because of something else?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said that before the

25     war and even now after the war people in Vukovar do not look at each


Page 3551

 1     other in terms of ethnicity.  They don't judge each other by ethnicity.

 2     Some people feel the need to say to what ethnic group they belong, others

 3     don't.  Throughout all my work, and now it's been 15 years that we

 4     returned to Vukovar, in our archives where we have records of employees

 5     we never write ethnicity.  We just right down the name and surname, their

 6     educational attainment, address of residence, et cetera.  We do not write

 7     down ethnicity or religion.  That is, I suppose, written into the

 8     registers of birth after censuses.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Just one minute, Mr. Demirdjian.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.  Madam Witness, picking up on

11     the Presiding Judge's question.  Yes, Ms. Witness, after hearing the

12     question of the President, when you -- [Overlapping interpretation]

13     ethnicity.  It's a bit difficult for me to understand what that means,

14     that you have Croat nationality or that you are Croat even without the

15     nationality of that state.  When you are Croat, you can be, for instance,

16     Serb by ethnicity or something else by ethnicity, or a national of

17     another country.  How is one supposed to know that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where we live, ethnicity is one

19     thing and nationality is another.  Those are two different concepts.  You

20     can be Croat while being a national of Croatia or a national of Serbia or

21     a national of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If you are an ethnic Serb, you can

22     also be a national of Croatia, of Serbia, or of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or

23     some other country, Germany or the Netherlands.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Delic.


Page 3552

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 2        Q.   Doctor, we left off where we were asking about the relationship

 3     between the ethnic communities, and my question to you was:  Was there a

 4     time where this relationship changed?

 5        A.   Certainly.  As the war began, there occurred changes in the

 6     ethnic structure.  Although in the town of Vukovar where there were

 7     45.000 inhabitants before the war, during the encirclement in the

 8     aggression only 15.000 remained.  In the encirclement, those people who

 9     remained in town and in the hospital included all ethnicities, but when

10     Vukovar fell, when the Yugoslav Army entered Vukovar along with all sorts

11     of paramilitaries who came with the army, they divided people thoroughly

12     so that Serbs were free.  They were free to go to Serbia or to remain in

13     Vukovar, whereas most of the Croats and other non-Serbs ended up in

14     camps.

15             During the so-called Republic of Serbian Krajina from 1991

16     through 1997, when the peaceful reintegration began, most of the

17     population in Vukovar and around the environs, which was called the

18     Croatian Danube valley, was part of the Osijek and Baranja counties, most

19     of the population was Serbs, although there were some remaining Croats,

20     Hungarians, and members of some other ethnic minorities.  However, in

21     that period of 16 years, the national minorities and people in mixed

22     marriages were subjected to all sorts of torment and torture that I know

23     about from witnesses and some I -- I witnessed.

24             In 1997 when we returned, we found 25.000 residents -- in fact,

25     that's the number that required medical assistance.  That's how I know


Page 3553

 1     the number.  And that's when returnees started to arrive.  The past 15

 2     years has been a time of restoration and return, and the area is again

 3     multi-ethnic.  The structure is slightly altered, but again members of

 4     various ethnicities live in the area.

 5        Q.   Doctor, I'd like to take that answer you gave us and go back a

 6     little bit in time.  Was there a point before, because you talked about

 7     the conflict and the fall of Vukovar, et cetera, was there a time before

 8     the conflict start where there were indications of a change in the

 9     relationship between the ethnic groups?

10        A.   Well, yes, that's true.  Practically from 1988, changes began in

11     the former Yugoslavia, changes that were supposed to lead to political

12     transformation in terms of making individual republics independent.  The

13     former Yugoslavia was made up of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina,

14     Macedonia, Montenegro, and Serbia with its two autonomous provinces,

15     Vojvodina and Kosovo.

16             After Tito's death, all sorts of changes began.  I remember that.

17     I was a student at that time.  Yugoslavia, as you know, was a socialist

18     country with a ruling Communist Party.  All sorts of liberal ideas

19     started to sprout.  Talk about liberalisation began.  Croatia and

20     Slovenia were foremost in this, and very soon negotiations began about

21     the transformation of Yugoslavia.  The presidents of Slovenia and Croatia

22     wanted the country to be transformed into a confederation.  However, the

23     political forces in Serbia, which was headed by Mr. Milosevic, and some

24     other republics were against that, and at that time centralisation was

25     pervasive in Yugoslavia in every way, in payments, in the foreign


Page 3554

 1     currency system, and the changes began in the late 1980s and early 1990s

 2     that resulted in the independence of certain republics.

 3             As for Vukovar, we could also feel those changes.  Vukovar was at

 4     that time a rather advanced city doing very well, very progressive.  We

 5     had a factory that employed over 10.000 people.  Around Vukovar and in

 6     the hospital and elsewhere, in Borovo, we had 15.000 people employed in a

 7     rather well developed industry, but the socialist system was showing its

 8     weaknesses.  Money was running short.  Many industries were unable to

 9     deal with the new free market economy.  Pay was late.  Salaries were not

10     paid, and there were all sorts of changes that had nothing to do with

11     ethnicity.

12             However, the Milosevic regime, at least this is how I see it,

13     took advantage of that moment to advance the idea of Serbian hegemony and

14     started spreading it through rallies beginning with Kosovo and Knin and

15     parts of Croatia.  They were spreading constantly some ideas among the

16     Serbian people that they are threatened.  They were spreading some myths

17     that they are in danger, that all of Yugoslavia has to be one great

18     Serbia, and that's when national rifts, divisions along ethnic lines

19     began.

20             In our area as well.  The settlements around Vukovar had a

21     majority Serb population, and Serb volunteers rushed in as if to

22     purportedly protect them.  Roadblocks were put up under that pretext, and

23     the Yugoslav Army was arming those volunteers and the Serb population who

24     thought that under the leadership of Slobodan Milosevic they would

25     succeed in occupying the greatest part of Yugoslavia so as to make it one


Page 3555

 1     big Serbia.  That's how the war began in the former Yugoslavia, and we

 2     were very hard hit by all that in Vukovar.  All the more so because we

 3     did not expect the heavy devastation that eventually happened.  We were

 4     hoping for a political solution and that the crisis would be resolved

 5     peacefully.  However, from August until November, hundreds of thousands

 6     of bombs and projectiles and shells handed on the town.  A lot of the

 7     city was damaged.  Many people were killed, so that very early on we felt

 8     in our own skins the aggression that is difficult to imagine if you were

 9     not in Vukovar at that time.  Later on, the war spread to other parts of

10     Croatia, and in 1992 to Bosnia-Herzegovina, but those early days in

11     Vukovar, the very start, was really the heaviest, the fiercest.

12        Q.   Doctor, I'd like to take you to a specific -- sorry.  I'd like to

13     take you to a very specific event.  It is an agreed fact between the

14     parties that there is an incident on the 2nd of May, 1991, in

15     Borovo Selo.  Are you familiar with this incident?

16        A.   Yes, I remember that, although at the time I was not the CEO of

17     the medical centre, but I do remember the incident.

18        Q.   How did you come to learn about it?

19        A.   That I was on duty in the outpatients' clinic in the hospital.

20     My nurses spoke to some other nurses on the phone.  They lived in

21     Borovo Selo.  They said that they couldn't come to work because there was

22     shooting going on.  The situation was very dramatic.  Everybody was

23     afraid.  In the afternoon they started bringing wounded and dead.  They

24     were all police officers from Borovo Selo.  I remember that.

25        Q.   And following this, could you explain to the Judges what was the


Page 3556

 1     security situation like during the month of May and June of 1991?

 2        A.   At that time, in the month of May, after that incident, the

 3     situation in Vukovar was still calm.  There was no shelling.  However,

 4     the roadblocks had already been put up.  You could not take your

 5     customary roads to go to Osijek or elsewhere.  You had to pass through

 6     the barricades or you had to use some roundabout ways.  That caused us a

 7     lot of problems with the transport of patients.  I remember that.  And

 8     people from the villages who had to come to the hospital because they

 9     worked there had to have passes.  For a while they kept on coming to work

10     but then they stopped.  In the month of June the situation became more

11     difficult.  The first shells started falling on the Borovo factory and

12     Borovo village, especially in the month of July.  And in August, the

13     shells started falling on the city of Vukovar itself on the central part

14     of the city.

15        Q.   Now, you told us that in the month of July you were appointed as

16     the director of the medical centre in Vukovar.  Could you tell us who was

17     the director before you?

18        A.   The director of the Vukovar Medical Centre before me was an

19     elderly doctor.  His name was Rade Popovic.  At that time, he resigned.

20     I remember that very well.  I was a member of the workers council.  That

21     was the name of the management board of the medical centre.  When he

22     resigned, he handed in his notice, and he said that he didn't want to

23     continue serving as a director.  Later on I learned that the minister had

24     asked for his resignation because he tolerated the fact that many people

25     had stopped coming to work, especially from Borovo Selo.  When I took


Page 3557

 1     over his position, I realised that that was indeed true and that many

 2     people had stopped coming to work from Borovo Selo.

 3        Q.   You learned that the minister had asked him to resign.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And on that note I would like us to display

 5     65 ter 206, which is at tab 2.

 6        Q.   Do you see the document on the screen, Doctor?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.

 8        Q.   Now, the subject here says "Request to Dismiss the Director,

 9     Dr. Rade Popovic."  Could you tell the Court who sends this document and

10     who is it addressed to?

11        A.   As you can see from the heading, it was the healthcare ministry

12     which sent this letter in July 1991 to the president of the workers

13     council of the medical centre.  At that time, the president of the

14     workers council was Dr. Vojislav Stanimirovic.  He was the one who called

15     the workers council meeting.  I was a member of that body.  But at that

16     time I was not aware of this document.  I only saw it later.  And at that

17     meeting, Dr. Popovic told us that he was handing in his resignation

18     because he no longer wanted to occupy that position.

19        Q.   Okay.  And if we scroll down to the bottom of page 1 in both

20     versions, does this document explain the reasons behind the request of

21     the Ministry of Health?

22        A.   I learnt this letter only subsequently, and I realised that

23     Dr. Popovic was being asked to resign because he turned a blind eye to

24     the fact that many people did not come to work, and they did not have a

25     justification, and he didn't dismiss them.  At that time in July, people


Page 3558

 1     were on legitimate leaves, but they were supposed to return, which they

 2     did not.  I suppose that somebody advised the minister of that, and the

 3     minister then asked for Dr. Popovic's resignation, and Dr. Popovic

 4     resigned.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we turn page 2.

 6        Q.   Doctor, do you recognise the signature on this letter?

 7        A.   This is Professor Hebrang's signature.  He was the health

 8     minister at the time.

 9        Q.   Following his resignation, could you tell the Court what happened

10     to Dr. Popovic, the former director?

11        A.   He remained working as the head of a department.  I was then

12     appointed the acting director of the hospital.  The workers council

13     actually elected me based on a proposal.  There were three candidates

14     running.  I gained the majority of the votes.  I was then appointed the

15     acting director of the medical centre, and then Minister Hebrang,

16     complying with the rules, confirmed my appointment as the director of the

17     medical centre.  Dr. Popovic told me that he would help me, that he would

18     remain working, that I could rely on him and his experience, and he

19     remained working despite the hardships and the war activities.  Later on

20     he went to Montenegro, and he could not come back.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I make an application to

23     tender this document.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 00206 will be Exhibit P1422.


Page 3559

 1     Thank you.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.   Doctor -- sorry.  Thank you.  Doctor, you explained the situation

 4     was increasingly tense during the months of June and July.  I'd like to

 5     take you to the month of August and describe what was the situation in

 6     the town of Vukovar itself.

 7        A.   Shells started falling on the city centre in August.  I remember

 8     that during the first week of August two shells fell near the market

 9     where a doctor of ours resided.  His house was there.  He came to tell us

10     that and he said that he was packing to go to Germany.  Many people left

11     Vukovar at the time.

12             In the hospital we established our own Crisis Staff.  My

13     assistant were Dr. Ivankovic, the head of surgical department;

14     Dr. Kuzmanovic, the head of the outpatients' clinics; Mr. Krstic who was

15     the assistant director for finances.  We held our meetings every two or

16     three days.  We organised the supply of medicines and medical equipment.

17     I would go to Zagreb to talk to Professor Hebrang.  I would talk to him

18     about the situation and how much medical equipment and supplies were need

19     because our storages were completely empty.  I learned later on that some

20     nurses had taken all those from the hospital and that they later on set

21     up their own outpatients' clinics in Serbian villages.

22             In any case, we tried to gather as much assistance as we could.

23     We organised ourselves so that everybody worked all the time.  A decree

24     came from the main medical staff to the effect that nobody could leave

25     their posts, and if they did and if they did not report to work for five


Page 3560

 1     days, they would be dismissed from work.  That was a war decree that was

 2     signed by the head of that medical staff, Ivo Prodan, and that was

 3     cosigned by Minister Hebrang.  That's how we organised ourselves.  We

 4     drafted an evacuation plan so that all the patients who were at the

 5     hospital at the time could be lowered down into the basement within 15

 6     minutes.  And all the chronical patients who did not require constant

 7     medical care were evacuated from Vukovar.  For example, the patients who

 8     were on dialysis for -- because of the renal failure were sent to Rovinj

 9     in Istria.  All patients had to be sent to various hospital departments

10     we did, and those that we could treat were treated in our hospital.  We

11     set some rules that we all complied with, and we managed to organise work

12     even in the direst of circumstances.  From the 15th of August we could

13     not leave the basement at all because there was daily shelling and shells

14     kept on falling on the hospital day in and day out.

15        Q.   And, Doctor, you mentioned the shelling --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, it is that time.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Are we going until quarter to or?  We started at

18     quarter past 2.00.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Quarter to?  Okay.  My mistake.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No problem.

21        Q.   So, Doctor, you're talking about shelling.  Can you tell the

22     Court if you know who was doing the shelling?

23        A.   At that time, Vukovar was already encircled and shells were

24     launched from the left bank the Danube from the eastern and southern

25     parts of the city.  There were air-strikes, and all those were bombs and


Page 3561

 1     shells launched by the JNA, or, actually, they all belonged to the JNA,

 2     but I don't know exactly who launched those shells and bombs.

 3        Q.   Now, Doctor, are you familiar with events at the post office in

 4     August of 1991?

 5        A.   I remember that.  We learned that the post office had been hit,

 6     that people were wounded there.  Military transporters were roaming the

 7     city all the time.  They then arrived at that hospital.  I don't know

 8     why.  I remember an event when a military APC arrived in the hospital to

 9     fetch a newborn baby and the parents had been left behind a roadblock.  I

10     don't know where they were, either in Bobanja [phoen] or Trpeta [phoen].

11     The baby was small.  We tried to explain to them that the baby should be

12     kept in hospital until it reached a certain weight.  However, one day an

13     APC arrived and a military doctor was with them.  They came to fetch the

14     baby to my great astonishment.  They could have used a normal car, but,

15     no, they did not.  They used an APC.  Then we realised that we were in a

16     war zone and that things could only get worse from there.

17        Q.   I'd like to show you a video-clip which is 65 ter 4798.6.  That's

18     at tab 90 of our list.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And for our interpreters, you may have a bundle.

20     It's at tab A of your bundle.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] The army caused another incident

23     in the Vukovar post office on August the 20th.  Three civilians were

24     killed in the gunfire and the investigation by the joint commission

25     established that apart from the Yugo-soldiers, nobody else shot a bullet.


Page 3562

 1     That day the Croatian children started to return from their summer

 2     holidays."

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 4        Q.   Doctor, on this image do you recognise any of the medical staff

 5     by any chance?

 6        A.   This is our ambulance which was sent to the spot in August.  We

 7     already had 20 people who had been brought in for war injuries.  Some of

 8     them were civilians and the others were Croatian policemen who were

 9     wounded.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  We'll keep playing, please.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] The first returnees are already

13     exposed to the terrorist attacks of the Vukovar's fifth-columnists."

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

15        Q.   Doctor, you were mentioning earlier that military vehicles were

16     in the streets.  What do you see here on the screen?

17        A.   I can see an APC of that -- of the kind that used to roam the

18     streets of Vukovar.  One of them arrived at the hospital as I already

19     told you.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  We can play the rest.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] On the --"

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  You can shut it down.  Thank you.

24             Your Honours, may I make an application to tender this

25     video-clip, please.


Page 3563

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 4798.6 will be P1423.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 4        Q.   Now, in the midst of all this, Dr. Bosanac, you were explaining

 5     to us that people were leaving the town.  Can you tell us specifically if

 6     anything specific was done with the children in Vukovar?

 7        A.   Of course I remember.  As I say, it was the time of summer

 8     holidays.  Children were on holidays at the seaside.  I remember that

 9     Serbian children left Serbian villages.  I couldn't believe my eyes when

10     I saw them leaving.  I didn't know why they were leaving.  I remember a

11     nurse who was from Negoslavci who used to work with us.  She was on

12     night-shift.  Her husband called her to tell her to come home immediately

13     because buses had arrived from Sid to take the women and children to Sid.

14     She had just come to work.  She couldn't believe what she heard.  He --

15     she told him not to send her children anywhere before she came.

16             The following day she went home and she never returned.  I

17     suppose she was taken to Sid.  I remember some of my patients from

18     Borovo Selo who phoned in to arrange a check-up and they could not come

19     for their check-ups because they wouldn't allow them.  They forced them

20     to go to Vojvodina.  And I remember those children who were returned from

21     their holidays hoping that they would start school on the 1st of

22     September or in any case at the beginning of September.  I remember that

23     Mr. Vlatko Pavletic was the minister of education.  He held a press

24     conference.  He said that the situation would calm down, that the

25     negotiations were underway, and that school would start.


Page 3564

 1             The situation was very confusing.  A lot of children returned to

 2     Vukovar, whereas many children left, predominantly of Serbian ethnicity.

 3     Children of both ethnicities stayed in Vukovar.  I remember because I

 4     lived there.  And we kept on expecting that the situation would calm

 5     down.  Of the 15.000 people who remained in Vukovar, there were about

 6     1.500 children under the age of 15.  Later on that was a big problem.

 7     When shells started falling, we had to protect those children.  We had to

 8     keep them under lock in atomic shelters and basements in order to save

 9     their lives.

10        Q.   Now, Doctor, you mentioned earlier the issue of the shelling of

11     the hospital.  Did the hospital take any measures to indicate or

12     demonstrate that this building was indeed a hospital?

13        A.   I've already testified about that on a number of occasions.  On

14     the roof of one of its buildings which housed the infectious disease

15     department there was a huge red cross, and the green area between the new

16     and the old hospital buildings we also spread a large piece of white

17     cloth depicting a red cross.  Later on it turned out it was a good

18     target, because shells kept on falling close to that red cross.  And then

19     people kept telling me why don't you remove that red cross?  Maybe they

20     would not go on shelling us that much if the cross wasn't there.

21             No rules were observed during that war.  It was aggression by the

22     so-called JNA and all the paramilitaries that accompanied it.  It was

23     just inconceivable what happened to us, what we suffered at their hands.

24        Q.   Doctor, I would like to show you a video now which is at

25     65 ter 4970.1.  This is at tab 26.


Page 3565

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And for the interpreters, you will find the

 2     transcript under tab C.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can you rewind it just a little bit.  Right

 5     there.  We'll get it.

 6        Q.   Doctor, what do you see on this image?

 7        A.   I can see one of those APCs belonging to the JNA.  It arrived

 8     within the hospital compound.

 9        Q.   And what's the building in the background?

10        A.   This is the May hospital -- the main hospital building.

11        Q.   For the record, this is 7 seconds into this clip.  We can keep

12     playing it, please.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] This is how the Yugoslav Army

15     treats the facilities which are so clearly marked with a red cross."

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

17        Q.   Doctor, do you recognise this image?

18        A.   That's the sheet that we spread.  One of them was on the roof and

19     the other one was on the ground between the old and the new hospital

20     buildings.  It was spread on the green surface between those two

21     buildings.

22        Q.   And how large was it, if you remember?

23        A.   I don't remember, but it was large.  Perhaps 7 metres by 9

24     metres.  It covered the entire green surface.

25        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  We can keep playing, please.


Page 3566

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can you freeze here.

 3        Q.   Are you able to see the date on this clip, Doctor?  Maybe we can

 4     play it a little bit more?

 5        A.   Not really, no.  I know it's 1991.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, I can see it.  28 August,

 8     1991, or perhaps 26th August, 1991, at 9.54.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  Let's keep playing.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

12        Q.   Doctor, we heard the shelling on this clip.  Is this

13     representative of the situation at the time?

14        A.   Fully.  It lasted the whole day from morning 'til night.  I

15     counted the shells and bombs.  There were over a hundred that fell into

16     the hospital compound every day.  Thousands of them fell in the city.

17     Vukovar is on the right bank of the Danube and it spreads over

18     10 kilometres, and it was completely encircled and shells kept on falling

19     on us all day.  Only from time to time we had a calm night.  I would go

20     to work every morning at 6.00, and no sooner did I arrive a new casualty

21     started arriving, and then around noon I would go home when it was calm,

22     and incendiary flares could be seen during the night from across the

23     Danube or from Negoslavci.  In any case, the whole sky was ablaze.  It

24     was like a fireworks display.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I would make an


Page 3567

 1     application to tender this video-clip, please.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter 4970.1 will be Exhibit P1424.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I notice the time.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Bosanac, we'll take the first break now.

 7     We will come back at 15 -- sorry, at 16.45 -- yes, of course, 16.15.

 8     Thank you.  The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom now.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian, your motion for that video that

14     the witness provided you with, could you file that by, let's say, 1.00

15     tomorrow, and then we would ask the Defence to give a response by the end

16     of the day.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, we're working on it, and I believe

18     we are in a position to do it by 1.00 tomorrow.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             Would that be okay with you as well, Mr. Gosnell?

21             MR. GOSNELL:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

23                           [The witness takes the stand]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.


Page 3568

 1        Q.   Welcome back, Doctor.  You explained to us before the break that

 2     you had placed a red cross flag on the hospital compound and that some of

 3     your colleagues suggested to remove it because it was becoming the target

 4     of shelling.  I would like to show you a short clip which is

 5     65 ter 4970.2.  This is at tab 26.  There is no transcript for this one.

 6     It's a very short two-second clip.  We can play it now, just pause right

 7     away.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Doctor, are you familiar with this image?

11        A.   Yes.  That happened within the hospital compound.  The bomb fell

12     just next to the canvas with the red cross on it.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  Your Honours, would I ask to tender

14     this document -- this clip.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 4970.2 will be

17     Exhibit P1425.  Thank you.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Doctor, earlier you explained that the shelling was coming from

20     across the Danube and from the area of Borovo.  Could you tell us whether

21     the shelling was also coming from other parts of town?

22        A.   Yes.  As I've said already, shells were coming in from the left

23     bank of the Danube where tanks or cannons were entrenched.  You could see

24     them from our side of the river.  They also came from the south, from the

25     direction of Negoslavci, and after they encircled us, they came from


Page 3569

 1     Bogdanovci and Marinci, even stronger where the Yugoslav Army had cut off

 2     the roads.  So we were being shelled from all sides.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just to avoid a little confusion, in your

 6     question you asked the witness:

 7             "Could you tell us whether the shelling was also coming from

 8     other parts of town?"

 9             Do you mean other directions or other parts of town?  What town

10     are you referring to?

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  From other directions into --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Into the town.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Into the town, sorry.  Yes.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

16        Q.   And on that you mentioned to us the left bank of the Danube.  I

17     would like you to take a look at an image which is 65 ter 6316 at

18     tab 110.  Thank you.

19             Doctor, could you -- are you, first of all, familiar with this

20     image, what we're seeing on the image?

21        A.   Yes.  On this image which is an aerial photograph you can see the

22     city of Vukovar.  This part here is the River Danube flowing this way,

23     which makes Vukovar on the right bank of the Danube.  On the left bank

24     where the cannons and the tanks that were targeting us.  This here is the

25     flow of the Vuka river which flows into the Danube.  Here you can see the


Page 3570

 1     hospital compound.

 2        Q.   Perhaps with the help of the usher you could mark everything

 3     you've indicated to us.  First of all, could you put an arrow to show the

 4     flow of the River Danube.  Maybe in the middle of the river itself just

 5     put an arrow.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Very well.  Now, when you meant the left bank of the Danube where

 8     you saw the tanks, where would that be?  You could put the letter A in

 9     that area?

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   And when you saw the hospital compound, could you put a letter B

12     around that area.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   You also mentioned there a river, Vuka, I believe.  If you could

15     put the letter C in that area.

16        A.   [Marks]

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you mentioned earlier that on the left bank

18     where the cannons and the tanks were targeting us, this is where you

19     indicated the letter A; is that right?  Thank you.

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, if I may make an application to

22     tender this image.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked photograph will be

25     Exhibit P1426.


Page 3571

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.   Now, could you tell the Judges about the frequency of the

 4     shelling from mid-August onwards.

 5        A.   On a daily basis, ever more and more, it was especially intensive

 6     in October and November.  Every day over a hundred different projectiles

 7     fell on the hospital, shells, tank shells, and projectiles from

 8     multiple-rocket launchers, as well as air bombs.  Every day.  There was

 9     not a single day without shelling.

10        Q.   You told us about the multiple-rocket launchers.  How do you know

11     that these were used at the time?

12        A.   I know because I saw it.  I felt it.  I went out from the

13     hospital when 16, 20 projectiles were fired from one and the same weapon

14     within a very short time.  It was a horrendous thing.  You could not not

15     see it.

16        Q.   Now, could you explain to the Judges how this shelling of the

17     hospital impacted your work and that of the staff members at the

18     hospital?

19        A.   The conditions were very hard indeed, because we were forced to

20     operate only in the basement, underground.  We put up sandbags against

21     windows and boarded them up to be able to work, but under very difficult

22     circumstances.  When those armoured projectiles and air bombs fell, they

23     would drill through the ground and disperse fragments.  People ran away

24     trying to find shelter in the deepest parts of the basement.  There was

25     no water.  We had to collect water from wells around.  We had several


Page 3572

 1     generators, and we brought some fuel oil to have power from -- for basic

 2     medical procedures such as X-ray, lab equipment, light for the operating

 3     room.  The conditions were very hard, especially water shortages, and

 4     there were ever more and more wounded people.

 5             In the early days we were able to evacuate those more seriously

 6     injured to Vinkovci up to the end of September.  However, in October and

 7     November we were completely besieged, so we could not evacuate anyone any

 8     more.  We put up the less seriously injured in shelters in Borovo Komerc

 9     and other business premises to be able to accommodate serious patients.

10     Gangrene cases were evermore frequent, and there were evermore problems.

11        Q.   Doctor, I'd like you to take a look at this next clip which is

12     65 ter 4970.3.  This is at tab 97.  There's no need for sound and there's

13     to transcript for this.  We'll just be looking at the image.  And --

14     right.  Yes, we can start playing it.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pause here for a second.

17        Q.   Doctor, are you able to see the date on this video?

18        A.   Yes, 5th October.

19        Q.   And so far what have we seen?  Do you recognise the compound?

20        A.   As we could see, this is the entrance into the hospital.  This is

21     the road between the new hospital building and the department of physical

22     therapy which used to house the emergency room before.  These are

23     ambulances.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can keep playing.

25                           [Video-clip played]


Page 3573

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pause here for a second.

 2        Q.   Which building were we looking at just now?

 3        A.   This is the main building of the hospital, the surgical

 4     department.  This is the time and the date when two air bombs fell on the

 5     hospital simultaneously.  One of them exploded here on the second floor

 6     in the surgical ward.  There were no patients there because the patients

 7     were all in the basement, but the damage was considerable.  The entire

 8     building was shaking and trembling.  Whereas, the second bomb penetrated

 9     all the five storeys from the roof down to the subterranean passage

10     leading to the atomic shelter, and it fell exactly on a bed where a

11     patient was lying.  However, it didn't explode, so apart from terror and

12     shock and the damage to all the floors above, it did not cause any

13     casualties, only material damage.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  For the record, this is the 22nd -- no, 25

15     seconds mark on the clip.  Let's keep playing it, please.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pause right here.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are the sandbags and the logs

19     that protected the entrance to the underground floor, because the shells

20     were falling from all directions all the time.  So we were constantly

21     trying to better protect this basement.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.  Let's keep playing, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you can see a doctor

25     operating.


Page 3574

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  And stop.  Thank you.

 2        Q.   Doctor, I'd like you to look at another clip -- well, just before

 3     I do that, Your Honours, can I tender this video-clip, please.

 4             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, just before it's admitted, could we

 5     ask the Prosecution whether they have any confirmation of the date

 6     counter on these videos?  It may not matter at all, but if they do have

 7     any information that would assist on whether or not that's accurate --

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  -- that would be of assistance.

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  No problems.

11        Q.   Dr. Bosanac, would you happen to know who recorded this footage?

12        A.   This was filmed by one of our employees who had a video camera.

13     He still works at the hospital.  It's sure that this was filmed on the

14     dates indicated.  The time and date is correct.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I don't have any indications that

16     the time is incorrect, or date.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 4970.3 will be

19     Exhibit P1427.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

22        Q.   And I'd like you to look at the next clip which is 65 ter 4970.4,

23     at tab 97.  And this one we don't need the sound.  There is no transcript

24     either.

25                           [Video-clip played]


Page 3575

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we pause here.

 2        Q.   Doctor, are you familiar with what we are looking at at this

 3     stage?

 4        A.   We see the inside of the hospital and the patients, the ill and

 5     wounded people, underground where everything was going on.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  For the record, this is the 4 second mark.

 7     Let's keep playing, please.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

10        Q.   Is this representative of the conditions that were prevalent at

11     the time?

12        A.   Yes.  It was overcrowded.  Here where you see a large number of

13     patients, it's the corridor of the underground floor where patients were

14     placed because in a way it was the safest place.  What you see here are

15     the empty rooms on the upper storeys, the first floor and the second

16     floor.  Nobody was there.  We had moved everyone down back in August, in

17     the basement.  Here is the view from the upper floor of the area where

18     the air bomb exploded.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  May I make an application to tender

20     that clip, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 4970.4 will be

23     Exhibit P1428.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:


Page 3576

 1        Q.   You mentioned a moment ago that an aeroplane bomb fell on the

 2     hospital, and it broke through several grounds, I believe.  Could you

 3     look at this next clip, which is 4798.8, at tab 90.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here you see the hole in the roof

 6     where the bomb fell.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 8        Q.   And here what do we see?

 9        A.   This is the hole created by the bomb that fell through the roof

10     and on through all the floors until the subterranean passage leading to

11     the atomic shelter.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We can keep playing.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  We can stop.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Now, you explained earlier that the bomb pierced through but did

16     not explode.  But it fell, you told us, on the bed of a patient; is that

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.  In that subterranean passage beds had been placed, lined

19     up, and the bomb fell onto the feet of the patient, crushing the bed, and

20     he was practically glued to the bomb, and everybody was terrorised

21     because they thought it was -- would explode.  So I called the police,

22     somebody from the bomb squad to inspect it, and they did and realised

23     that the fuse was defective and it wouldn't explode.  First of all, they

24     detached the patient from the bomb, put him on a stretcher, and took him

25     outside, and luckily the patient suffered only shock but no serious

 


Page 3577

 1     injury.

 2             After the fall of Vukovar, that man stayed in Vukovar and later

 3     on when we returned in 1997, he looked me up.  I saw him again, and I

 4     wrote him a certificate about that incident, because he needed it for his

 5     own purposes as a civilian victim of war.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I believe there's a question from the

 7     Trial Chamber, but may I just clarify with the witness if she remembers

 8     the name of the patient and his ethnic background.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember it, but I would not like

10     to tell his name in public considering that I'm not a protected witness.

11     If you want his name, according to the law on the rights of patients,

12     then I would like to be given the opportunity to do so in private to

13     respect his rights as a patient.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, please, may we go in private

15     session?

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 3578

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I apologise, Your Honour.  I believe

14     Judge Mindua had a question.

15             JUDGE MINDUA:  Yes, he did have a question.  [Interpretation] My

16     question is to you, Mr. Prosecutor, because I have the impression that

17     there was a slight misunderstanding.  On transcript page 36, lines 3

18     through 6, the witness spoke about air bombs.  On page 38, she speaks of

19     two air bombs that fell on the hospital.  But you, Prosecutor, on page

20     40, speak of aeroplane bombs.  I think it's different, because air bomb

21     is a projectile that cannot be guided and hits randomly, whereas

22     aeroplane bombs are dropped from planes during combat and can be guided.

23     So what are we talking about, guided missiles or bombs that fell randomly

24     on the hospital?

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be better to

 


Page 3579

 1     ask the witness herself to give us an explanation.

 2             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 4        Q.   Dr. Bosanac, could you explain to the Trial Chamber again the

 5     types of bombs that were targeting the hospital -- or sorry, that were

 6     hitting the hospital?

 7        A.   In this case those were air bombs.  Those were bombs were

 8     launched from aeroplanes.  I know what they looked like.  They were big.

 9     It weighed over 250 kilos.  It was almost the size of a patient -- a

10     patient's bed.  And that's, at least, what the experts from the police

11     told us.

12        Q.   And in addition to aeroplane bombs, you also described earlier

13     different types of bombs; is that right?

14        A.   As I've told you, on a daily basis all sorts of projectiles fell

15     on the hospital, all sorts of bombs, and they incapacitated us almost

16     incompletely.  There was an armoured projectile that was launched from an

17     aeroplane, and when it hit the ground, it exploded only then.  So it

18     completely filled in our subterranean corridor with concrete and soil.

19     Almost a tonne of the material fell on a patient who was in a bed.  We

20     dug him out.  We thought that he would be dead, but he survived.  He was

21     buried under the debris that weighed over a tonne.  That patient had

22     been -- was tetraplegic from before the war.  He was brought to the

23     hospital because he could not be looked after at home, and he almost got

24     killed by that bomb, but he did survive and then after the fall of

25     Vukovar, he was transported to Zagreb, and they gave him accommodation in


Page 3580

 1     a home.  I know his name as well, but again I would not mention it in

 2     open session.  I don't want to violate anybody's right.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN: [Interpretation] Judge, I believe that the

 4     witness answered that they were air bombs which were launched from

 5     aeroplanes.  Does this clarify the matter sufficiently?

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.  Now it's absolutely clear.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I tender this video-clip which

 8     was 4798.8?

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 4798.8 will be

11     Exhibit P1429.  Thank you.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

13        Q.   Now, earlier, Doctor, you told us that you were not using the

14     upper floors of the hospitals as of the month of August or September, I

15     believe.  Could you tell the Court which parts exactly of the hospital

16     you were using.

17        A.   We could use only the basement where we had organised our

18     Emergency admission, the OR.  First we had one and then two.  Those were

19     all both makeshift operating theatres.  All of the basement rooms were

20     redesigned and used as hospital rooms so that our patients lie on the

21     floors in all of our basement rooms.

22             There were some smaller rooms which were used to accommodate the

23     staff during night.  It was only rarely that the personnel could rest.

24     Everybody was on duty all the time.  All of the basement rooms in the

25     main hospital room and in the old hospital building were occupied by


Page 3581

 1     patients.  The same was true of the basement -- basement of the

 2     infectious diseases department which was in Vilaknolj [phoen] where

 3     patients were in all the basement rooms.  We also had a makeshift

 4     kitchenette in the basement as well as a laboratory.  The laundry room

 5     was there as well.

 6             The most important area was our atomic shelter, because that's

 7     where we could guarantee our patients almost a hundred per cent safety,

 8     and when shelling was the hardest, patients were safe in the atomic

 9     shelter.  That's where our most serious cases were accommodated.  It was

10     an intensive-care unit.  We also had a room for pregnant women and

11     newborns, little babies in incubators.  We had a room for wounded

12     children.  Currently those rooms house a museum, and if at all possible I

13     would like to invite you to come visit that area to see what it looks

14     like now and also there is a reflection on what it looked like at the

15     time.

16        Q.   Now, Doctor, you told us also earlier that your office moved from

17     one building to the main building, I believe.  On which floor was your

18     office as of the month of September?

19        A.   Again, in the basement.  The basement.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  At this time, Your Honours, I would like to use

21     the sketch of the hospital which was added to the 65 ter list this

22     morning.  It is at tab 118 and it's 65 ter 6405.  And there is an English

23     version as well.  However, for the purposes of the witness, I'm wondering

24     if it would be more useful to zoom on the B/C/S version.  Thank you.

25        Q.   Doctor, are you familiar with this image?


Page 3582

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And can you tell us exactly what we are looking at here?

 3        A.   We are looking at the floor plan of the basement, of the main

 4     hospital building.  This was drafted by our matron.  She organised a

 5     lecture.  Actually, there was a lecture organised by the organisation of

 6     war nurses, and she was one of the speakers.

 7        Q.   And approximately can you tell us when this sketch was prepared?

 8        A.   She did it sometime in 1993, when we were already in Zagreb.

 9     That's where she was preparing her lecture.  I don't know when exactly

10     that was.  It was in 1993.  Here you can see the entrance into the

11     emergency room.  There was an outpatients' clinic where we did the triage

12     of the wounded.  There were two such rooms.  This is the first OR.  You

13     could see a doctor operating here behind those wooden trunks.  And this

14     is a room for our Crisis Staff, and here behind that room there is a big

15     window, and on the right-hand side where you can see beds this is the

16     corridor.

17        Q.   Doctor, just a second.  I think it would assist us if the usher

18     could help you mark it, and perhaps if we zoomed out a little bit.  Yes.

19     The usher will assist you in marking this image.  And if you could start

20     again.  You were first of all explaining to us --

21        A.   This is the entrance into the emergency room.

22        Q.   Yes.

23        A.   On the right-hand side and on the left-hand side these are the

24     two outpatients' clinics of the emergency department, and here you can

25     see my office.  Do you want me to mark all those things?


Page 3583

 1        Q.   Yes, you can mark them with letters just to help us guide

 2     through.

 3        A.   A would stand for the outpatients' or reception rooms.  B stands

 4     for my office.

 5             What you see here is the operating theatre.  This is the plaster

 6     room.  O2 is the second OR which used to be the X-ray room, X-ray room.

 7     And where you can see beds, this is where all our patients were, like you

 8     saw it in the image.  And all these rooms were used by patients.  And

 9     here you can't see it very well, but through this corridor you would go

10     into the subterranean passage and in this area here you can see the

11     atomic shelter here.

12        Q.   You've placed the letters A and S for the atomic shelter; is that

13     right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Can I ask you to go back.  You earlier told us about, I believe,

16     the plaster room.  You put a sign there.  What is that sign?

17        A.   Yes.  You can see a G.

18        Q.   A G?

19        A.   Letter G.  And here, this is OR 1, and G stands for the room

20     where patients with fractures and those who came out of the OR had their

21     fractures plastered.

22        Q.   You told us that we could see beds on this sketch.  Could you

23     just tell us which -- which symbol we should be looking for?

24        A.   For example, we used to call this a hall.  It was a corridor, a

25     passage, a hallway that connected all the other rooms.  So hence the


Page 3584

 1     letter H.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And what are all these little rectangles with a line, a

 3     diagonal line through them?

 4        A.   Hospital beds for our patients.

 5        Q.   Now, on the right-hand side of this image where it's a little bit

 6     darker, we see a number of rooms and it looks like a letter N.  Can you

 7     tell us what that is?

 8        A.   This is the boiler room.  This is not part of our hospital

 9     premises.  Actually, it is.  Before the war that used to house our boiler

10     room, but that was no longer in use.  And this here is the so-called

11     sterilisation for clean laundry, and this is a laboratory, and letters TR

12     denote transfusion.  All of this was a laboratory here.  This was our

13     X-ray room.  And this was our staff room.  And the rooms here were also

14     for our patients.

15             During the war, this was dentistry, and here you could see that

16     dentist.  When that shell hit, there was a lot of debris that fell right

17     over the heads.  So it was by sheer fortune that they stayed alive when

18     that happened.

19        Q.   Now, let's go back to those letters you indicated.  At the bottom

20     right I see a KOT.  That's what you said was the boiler room; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Above that you put STR for sterilisation room; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   Then we see a number of Ls and the word "lab."  You described


Page 3585

 1     that's where the laboratory?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And there's a small room with what seems to be an O and a S.

 4     What would that be?

 5        A.   Staff.  Emergency room staff.  That was for their rest.  It's a

 6     very small room, perhaps 2 by 2.  There were a couple of beds there where

 7     they could rest.  And here you can see another laboratory, but all the

 8     windowpanes were shattered on that room, so we could not use it.  All of

 9     that was so badly damaged it was totally unusable.

10        Q.   Now, while you were marking the two letter Ps you explain that

11     there was a shell hit, the dentistry room.  What kind of patients were

12     held there?

13        A.   Those patients who were soldiers of the JNA, you could see their

14     names on my appeals, Sasa Jovic, Mirkovic, and somebody called Srdjan.

15     There was somebody else whose name I can't remember.  They were in these

16     rooms, but when that shell hit and when everything was destroyed there,

17     they were moved inside, so we actually put them in beds next to all of

18     the other patients.

19        Q.   Very well.  Now, to the right of the picture where you wrote the

20     letters A and S, there's also a large arrow going up.  Where is that

21     leading to?

22        A.   That arrow shows the path to the subterranean passage which was

23     even lower than the basement.  You can see those two ORs, and those who

24     were operated upon were taken down that way into the atomic shelter where

25     it was the safest for them.  And that armoured shell that I spoke about


Page 3586

 1     that fell on the ground and filled in that passage with debris, this is

 2     where it happened.  So we had to basically dig a tunnel in order to be

 3     able to enter the atomic shelter.  And that corridor led from the

 4     basement to the basement of the old building under that green surface

 5     where that red cross was displayed.

 6        Q.   You drew an arrow going to the left where the shell hit.  Can you

 7     put the letter S next to that arrow, please.

 8        A.   I'd rather put letters PB standing for armored shell.  And up

 9     here along that way, this is where that air bomb pierced all the floors

10     and landed on a patient's bed.  This is where it landed.  Do you remember

11     that bomb that pierced the floors of all the five floors and landed on a

12     patient's beds?

13        Q.   And you've place the letter AB next to the arrow pointing to that

14     area; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I apply to -- yes.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, I think it was PB.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We had PB earlier, just a little bit above, and

19     now we have AB.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry.  Thank you very much.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I make an application to tender this

22     document, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked B/C/S image of

25     65 ter 6405 will now be Exhibit P1430.


Page 3587

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.   Now, Doctor, I would like to ask you in relation to the hospital,

 4     was it guarded in any way?

 5        A.   The commander of the -- the commander of the town's defence,

 6     whose name was Milorad Dedakovic, Jastreb, appointed men who were members

 7     of the guard and who were supposed to guard the hospital.  They did guard

 8     the hospital, but they couldn't guard it from shells, so their lives were

 9     at risk as were ours.  In addition to that, the police commander

10     appointed two police officers who were in charge of the hospital.  One of

11     them was Branko Lukenda, whose task was to make a list of all the wounded

12     and take those lists to the police.  He was also supposed to collect

13     weapons from all of the wounded who had been brought to the hospital and

14     take those to the police.  The other one was Tomislav Hegedus, who was

15     also a police officer, and he was in charge of compiling the lists of

16     those who died and collect their belongings and take them to the police.

17     And this is all about the guard service and co-operation with the army

18     and the police and the defence of the hospital.

19        Q.   While at the hospital, what weapons, if any, did these MUP police

20     officer have?

21        A.   While they were in hospital, they didn't have any weapons.

22     Nobody could bring weapons into the hospital.  At the very entrance into

23     the hospital on the left-hand side, they had to deposit all of their

24     weapons, and then those people from the police would take all those

25     weapons to the police.  Those who were on the security detail, they were


Page 3588

 1     outside, they had some weapons, but I don't know what kind of weapons

 2     they had.  I didn't pay too much attention to that in view of the

 3     situation.  There was no fighting at close range, so they could not

 4     really protect us from anybody who would come close to the hospital.  Our

 5     biggest problems were -- problem were those shells that fell on the

 6     hospital.

 7        Q.   Well, after -- earlier, if you remember, you told us that you

 8     would arrive at 6.00 in the morning at the hospital and the first

 9     patients would arrive.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit

10     about the number of casualties which were brought to the hospital between

11     September and November?

12        A.   New casualties arrived every day.  The fewest number that arrived

13     in one day were 12 and the biggest 92.  On average there were 50 to 60

14     every day.  There were sometimes 16, sometimes 18, sometimes 80.  I

15     described all that in my appeals that I sent daily together with my

16     requests to those who did it to stop shelling the hospital and to call

17     off aggression against Vukovar.

18        Q.   And are you able to tell us what were the proportions between

19     civilian and non-civilian casualties brought to the hospital?

20        A.   Seventy to eighty per cent of all the casualties were civilians.

21     The city was full of people, and those civilians walked around.  They

22     repaired their roofs.  They would go out to fetch water so that 70 to 80

23     per cent of those were civilians.  In my previous testimonies I provided

24     the exact information.  A fewer number were members of the guard.  They

25     were Vukovar's defenders.  They were not all members of the professional


Page 3589

 1     army, because the professional army did not exist at the time.  And there

 2     were also some police force members, but the highest number of our

 3     casualties were civilians, elderly, women, children.  It was particularly

 4     terrible when the old pensioners' home was destroyed on that day.  They

 5     brought us casualties from that old pensioners' home, many of them dead,

 6     the rest of them very seriously wounded.

 7        Q.   Now, Doctor, you mentioned a moment ago your appeals which you

 8     sent out to stop the shelling of the hospital.  Could you tell us first

 9     which organisations or institutions you sought assistance from?

10        A.   From many organisations.  From many organisations.  I addressed

11     UNICEF, the European Monitoring Mission, the ministry of health care.  On

12     several occasions I even called the command of the Yugoslav People's

13     Army.  Medecins sans Frontieres responded.  They organised a convoy to

14     evacuate the wounded.  I kept on writing those appeals, hoping that

15     somebody would hear me and take action.

16             Njavro told me this is in vain.  You will only get killed while

17     you go to the post office to send them and nobody will hear you, but I

18     persisted.  Today these appeals served to help us reconstruct the events,

19     although unfortunately nobody really helped us.

20        Q.   Just for the purposes of the Trial Chamber, you mentioned the

21     word Njavro.  Who would that be?

22        A.   Dr. Njavro was the chief war surgeon in the hospital.  He was the

23     head of the surgical team.  There were seven other doctors working

24     alongside with him.  They worked all the time, 24/7.  There were some

25     volunteer doctors from Zagreb and Osijek, some anaesthesiologists.  There


Page 3590

 1     were some of our own doctors from Vukovar who stayed behind together with

 2     us.  They worked from dawn to dusk, and they helped as much as they could

 3     under extremely dire conditions.  Three thousand four hundred and seventy

 4     wounded were treated at the Vukovar Hospital in 1991, and two thousand

 5     two hundred and fifty were operated upon.  Every day we had minor or

 6     major surgeries, at least seven or eight of them, at least seven or eight

 7     major surgical procedures.

 8             War wounds are terrible.  They're mutalising.  They destroy one's

 9     body, limbs.  And those who were wounded in the head, we couldn't help

10     them.  We could only send them to Osijek while that was possible.  And as

11     for those who were wounded in the body, who were wounded in the

12     extremities, we helped them as much as we could.  One of the doctors whom

13     you seen here, he created fixators.  They were produced in the Borovo

14     factory.  They were made of steel.  They were tailor-made.  We sterilised

15     them in the morning, and then apply them onto the patients later in the

16     day.  So we had very few amputations unlike other war hospitals where

17     amputations are common place.  Our surgeons worked very professionally,

18     respecting the ethical principles of their work.  They worked diligently.

19     They tried to protect and preserve everybody's extremities and fingers

20     and toes.  We did as best as we could.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours?

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This is about one page of transcript just to

24     answer your question who Mr. Njavro was.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, your Honours.  I'll focus my questions as


Page 3591

 1     much as I can.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 4        Q.   Doctor, you also mentioned that Dr. Njavro told you you would get

 5     killed while you would go to the post office.  Could you explain to the

 6     Judges the mode of transmission of your appeals, and could I ask you to

 7     be as concise and focused as possible, please.

 8        A.   I wrote those appeals every day, dictating them to my secretary,

 9     and I carried them to the police station which was a hundred metres away

10     from the hospital, because they had a working fax machine.  In the early

11     days we had our own fax machine in the hospital.  However, communications

12     broke down very soon, and it was impossible to send faxes from our

13     basement.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned a moment ago you even contacted the

15     Yugoslav People's Army.  Could you tell the Court who in the JNA you

16     contacted?

17        A.   Through the post office clerk I asked to be connected with the

18     General Staff, the staff of General Panic who was the main man for the

19     5th Military District or Admiral Brovet.  I did reach someone in Belgrade

20     and in Sarajevo.  I didn't know who they were because they didn't

21     introduce themselves.  I protested the bombing of the hospital.  They

22     replied they did not believe me that the hospital was being shelled or

23     bombed.  I told them to come and see for themselves.  I did manage to

24     make a connection, but there was no response.  I asked to speak to the

25     office of the prime minister of Yugoslavia, Mr. Ante Markovic, but I


Page 3592

 1     didn't manage to reach him, only some of his secretaries.  So I really

 2     looked for help everywhere.

 3             Most of my appeals were addressed to the European mission

 4     headquartered at the hotel.  I had the greatest expectations from them,

 5     but in the end they didn't really help.

 6        Q.   Doctor, I'm going to refer now to a series of these appeals that

 7     you sent at the time.  The first one I would like us to look at is

 8     65 ter 467-1 at tab 4, please.  Thank you.

 9             Doctor, do you recognise this document?

10        A.   Yes.  That's one of those appeals like that I've sent on a daily

11     basis.

12        Q.   And who did you send this one?

13        A.   I had the fax number of that office at the hotel and that

14     international European mission that was housed there, the EC monitors.

15        Q.   And just to be clear, you said it was the European -- a few lines

16     above you talked about the European mission headquartered at the hotel.

17     Where -- or in which city were they headquartered?

18        A.   Zagreb.  And the head of that mission was

19     George Maria Shani [phoen], who was later cosignatory of the agreement on

20     evacuation, and through him I also sent a letter to the ambassador of

21     France to Croatia.

22        Q.   And just to complete the -- this, is this the letterhead of the

23     medical centre in Vukovar, on the B/C/S version?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Could you explain to us also about the translation that we see


Page 3593

 1     here in English.

 2        A.   There was a lady who worked at that hotel who translated this

 3     into English and sent it all over the world, to the International Red

 4     Cross and the top politicians at that time.  I got hold of that fax

 5     number through the media and the people who were working at that time at

 6     that European mission.  So I sent all my appeals to them.

 7        Q.   So the translation was done at the time?

 8        A.   Yes, at that time in Zagreb, on that day.  I sent a new appeal

 9     every day.

10        Q.   Now, here we can see that you are requesting the lifting of the

11     blockade of Vukovar.  Could you clarify for the Trial Chamber why you

12     used the word "blockade"?

13        A.   Because all access roads to Vukovar were blocked, and it was

14     important for us to lift the blockade off those roads in order to

15     evacuate the wounded and to be able to get some medical supplies which

16     were running out.

17        Q.   Now, this appeal here is dated the 20th of October, 1991.  I

18     believe it is one of the first ones in your book appeal.  Could you tell

19     the Trial Chamber if you had sent any appeals prior to this date?

20        A.   Yes, but I was unable to take any of those appeals with me.  I

21     had a few last ones when I went to prison and everything remained behind,

22     but those appeals that had been faxed before were found later by a

23     journalist in the war history museum and asked my permission to publish

24     them.  So the book contains only some of the appeals, not all of them.

25     All of them are probably still in the archive of the military court in


Page 3594

 1     Belgrade, because they all remained behind in Vukovar when we were

 2     deported.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I apply to tender this appeal,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 467.1 will be Exhibit P1431.

 8        Q.   I'd like to turn to the next appeal, which is 65 ter 5070 at tab

 9     103.  Thank you.

10             Doctor, is this another one of your appeals?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You can see here this one is dated the 21st of October and that

13     it's sent to the European mission at the Hotel I in Zagreb.  First I'd

14     like to ask you, in the first sentence you are thanking them for their

15     efforts to help Vukovar during the blockade "... but you have to lodge a

16     protest concerning the following:  First, the cease-fire has not been

17     honoured ...," what cease-fire are you referring to here?

18        A.   It was actually two days after the Doctors Without Borders convoy

19     had been organised, and on at that day, the day of the convoy, the 19th,

20     there was a cease-fire, and from then on every other day the

21     Doctors Without Borders were supposed to evacuate new patients and the

22     cease-fire was supposed to hold; however, when the Doctors Without

23     Borders left, everything went on as before and got even worse.

24        Q.   Further down in this appeal you refer to a six months' old dead

25     baby who was brought to the hospital along with a grandmother whose arm


Page 3595

 1     was amputated.  Are you aware of the specific circumstances of these two

 2     victims?

 3        A.   That happened somewhere in the southern part of the city where a

 4     shell pierced the roof over the basement where they were hiding, and it

 5     was especially dramatic because the baby was killed and the grandmother

 6     was seriously wounded.  That was horrendous.  The nurses were crying.  It

 7     was very difficult.  Everybody was already frustrated and overwrought.

 8             I tried to depict this atmosphere to those I believed could help

 9     us, and I tried as much as I could to keep up the morale of the

10     personnel, because another month of great difficulties followed.

11        Q.   Now, Doctor, you refer here also to the brutality of the Yugoslav

12     Army and paramilitary troops.  What did you know at the time in relation

13     to paramilitary troops?

14        A.   Well, at that time what I was able to learn living in Vukovar

15     when those irregular troops and volunteers had already arrived at the

16     Serb villages around Vukovar, and whatever I could see on the media, and

17     what I could see for myself was the brutality of the Yugoslav People's

18     Army that was destroying the city, the hospital, everything.

19        Q.   Had you seen any paramilitary troops in Vukovar at the time?

20        A.   At the time when I was still there in encirclement, no.  Only

21     when Vukovar fell.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well.  Your Honours, may I apply to tender

23     this appeal.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 5070 will be P1432.


Page 3596

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, what time are we stopping?

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  This is the time.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  This is the time?

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Okay.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask for a break?

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We're taking --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We're taking one right now, Ms. Bosanac.  The

 9     court usher will escort you out of court.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

12                           --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Gosnell.

15             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, just to take care of one matter that

16     was raised at the outset.  The Defence will not object to the addition of

17     65 ter -- well, 0640 to the 65 ter list.  That was one of the documents

18     that was suggested could be added.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is that the one from the eighth motion,

20     Mr. Demirdjian?

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's correct, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

24             MR. GOSNELL:  Well, just to be clear.  There's two different

25     things.  One is the additional CD or DVD, and that's the motion I think


Page 3597

 1     that's still going to be filed.  This is just a single document.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  This is -- this is the one document from a

 3     motion with more documents, but this is the one you intend to use with

 4     this witness, so you needed a decision as soon as possible, and now the

 5     Defence says there's no objection, so you may add this to your exhibit

 6     list, Mr. Demirdjian.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Much obliged, Your Honours, and I appreciate

 8     Mr. Gosnell's quick response on this matter.

 9                           [The witness takes the stand]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Madam Bosanac, we are continuing now until 7.00.

11     I take it has been explained to you that whenever you need an extra break

12     or pause, you just let us know and we will deal with that.  Okay?

13             Mr. Demirdjian, please continue.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Dr. Bosanac, I would like you to look at another one of our

16     appeals which is 65 ter 467.2, and that is at tab 12 of our list.  Yes.

17     Thank you.

18             Doctor, do you recognise this as one of your appeals?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Now, in this fax you repeat your request for the JNA's

21     withdrawal, and you provide the number of 267 dead persons in Vukovar

22     since the 25th of August, and you give a breakdown between civilians,

23     children, members of the MUP, and members of the Croatian Army.  Now,

24     could you explain to the Chamber how you obtained these numbers.

25        A.   In that period, all those killed were brought in to the


Page 3598

 1     Vukovar Hospital where experts examined dead bodies, and as I said, that

 2     officer of the Ministry of the Interior, in fact, the police officer

 3     Tomislav Hegedus made lists of those killed so that I had daily insight

 4     into the number of killed in Vukovar in that period.  And I have to note

 5     that from some peripheral parts of the town, especially in the month of

 6     November, the dead and the wounded could no longer be transported to the

 7     Vukovar Hospital.  Instead, those who were cut off from Vukovar and

 8     wounded were taken to the premises of Borovo Komerc in Borovo Naselje.

 9     These are details of the people killed and wounded for the town of

10     Vukovar.

11        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  And in the -- somewhere in the middle of this

12     page you also list three wounded JNA soldiers.  Earlier when we were

13     looking at the sketch of the hospital, you indicated that there were JNA

14     soldiers who were moved from the office next to the dentistry.  Are these

15     the wounded JNA soldiers that you were referring to?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber how these JNA soldiers were

18     treated at the hospital?

19        A.   They were treated like all the other wounded people under the

20     circumstances.  We gave them the best medical assistance and care that we

21     could provide.  In the period when they were in a separate room, they

22     even had better conditions because they had more space and better

23     treatment.  However, after a shell hit that room, they were moved and

24     then they were in the same position as everyone else.

25        Q.   And did these wounded JNA soldiers survive?


Page 3599

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I would propose to tender this

 4     fax.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 467.2 will be Exhibit P1433.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we now look at the next fax which is

 8     65 ter 467.9 at tab 19.

 9        Q.   Now, Doctor, this is not one of your faxes here.  Could you

10     explain to the Court what we're looking at here?

11        A.   We're looking at a letter that one member of the armed forces of

12     the Croatian Army wrote and signed as Milan Macek, because on that day --

13     in fact, not only that day but on other days as well, apart from my fax

14     and telephone communications, I called anyone I could reach to describe

15     the situation that day and that hour, and after my telephone call this

16     man, Milan Macek, forwarded this information to the European mission as I

17     had asked him.

18        Q.   Could you explain something to the Trial Chamber, because earlier

19     you were telling us that at the time there wasn't really a Croatian Army

20     per se, and here we have a document signed by Milan Macek and it's from

21     the headquarters of the Croatian Army.  Could you explain to us at the

22     time what was the state of the Croatian Army?

23        A.   What I told you before referred to the time when the defence of

24     the town of Vukovar was being established in August and September, and

25     this relates to a later period when the Croatian Army had already been


Page 3600

 1     established in Zagreb with its Main Staff headquartered there.  Formerly,

 2     the 204th Vukovar Brigade was set up in September 1991.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.  Your Honours, may I tender this fax,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 467.9 will be Exhibit P1434.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 8        Q.   Doctor, a moment ago you told us that you would also make

 9     telephone calls to various institutions, so we're going to take a short

10     break from the faxes and appeals and I would like you to look at the

11     following video-clip, which is 65 ter 4798.9, at tab 90.  For the

12     interpreters, this is tab D of your bundle.  And on this video it starts

13     at the 1 hour 40 minutes mark.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Every day between 20 and 60 new

16     wounded people arrive at the hospital, mainly civilians because Vukovar

17     is full of women, children, and people.  People live in basements.

18     Shells hit basements and injure and kill people.  The hospital was the

19     one worst hit in the latest raid.  The roof was penetrated in three

20     places.  The left part of the hospital building has partially collapsed.

21     The whole of the hospital functions in the shelter and at the level of

22     the cellar, the basement, and the ground floor.  The conditions are

23     horrific.  There are no hospital rooms any more nor the intensive care

24     rooms; that is, the field hospital level of functioning.  Beds are next

25     to each other, crammed.  The care is given in very poor quality,


Page 3601

 1     administering therapies and procedures is made more difficult.  There is

 2     a lack of medicine.  There are no blood derivatives.  Only volunteers

 3     gladly give fresh blood for the wounded.  The wounded children, women,

 4     civilians.  We had hoped that the Europeans would help us."

 5             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 6        Q.   Doctor, do you recognise the voice on that telephone call?

 7        A.   I was giving this report by telephone to the Croatian

 8     Radio Vukovar, and I tried in every possible way to show the situation as

 9     it was at the time.

10        Q.   Very well.  We saw at the beginning that the clip -- well, the

11     clip said the 16th of October, 1991.  Could you tell a little bit about

12     Croatian Vukovar, the radio in Vukovar itself, what was it doing at the

13     time?

14        A.   At the Croatian Radio Vukovar, there were people who sent out

15     reports day and night.  Sinisa Glavasevic was at the head, then

16     Mr. Polovina, Josip Esterajher, Vesna Vukovic, Alinka Mirkovic, and

17     Zvjezdana Polovina.  The six of them took turns in shifts and sent out

18     reports nonstop.  Most of them, and especially Sinisa Glavasevic, visited

19     the hospital every day and put out reports on the radio wherever he

20     could.  They were located in the basement of the radio offices, but when

21     that was damaged, they moved to a basement below the road where the

22     museum is, the town museum housed in the castle of the Eltz Count.  On

23     the day when we were expecting to be evacuated they came to the hospital

24     again.  Some of them left attempting a breakthrough, some of them

25     returned.  Sinisa Glavasevic and Branimir Polovina also ended up at


Page 3602

 1     Ovcara.  Sinisa Glavasevic was wounded.  He had shrapnel in his face, and

 2     he was registered as a wounded person who like many others was taken to

 3     Ovcara and killed there.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I apply for this video 4798.9

 5     to be admitted.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 4798.9 will be Exhibit P1435.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

10        Q.   I'd like to move to another fax you sent Dr. Bosanac at

11     65 ter 493, which is at tab 23.  Just for the record, Dr. Bosanac,

12     earlier you mentioned Sinisa Glavasevic and you mentioned Branimir, but

13     his last name was not recorded in the transcript at page 66, line 5.  Can

14     you tell us his last name again?

15        A.   Branimir Polovina.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now looking at this do you recognise this as one of

17     your faxes?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   This one is dated the 27th of October, 1991, and you're updated

20     the European mission on the number of wounded, and here you state that 70

21     per cent are civilians.  Earlier today you told us that between 70 and 80

22     per cent of the wounded brought at the hospital were civilians.  Did you

23     get any reaction to this appeal?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   In the last paragraph you mention that there are also JNA


Page 3603

 1     soldiers.  Now, we saw three JNA soldiers in the previous fax.  Were

 2     there other JNA soldiers brought to the hospital?

 3        A.   Yes, a few of them.  I remember a soldier who was injured by a

 4     shell at the entrance to the police station and he lost a leg.  I saw him

 5     with my own two eyes.  Actually, he had surrendered.  He was in a tank.

 6     He surrendered.  He was brought to the police station, to the basement

 7     there like everybody else.  On that day I went there to send my faxes and

 8     I saw him.  He was sitting on the stairs when that shell hit and blew off

 9     his leg.  There was another lad whose name was Boban Gacic.  I remember

10     him very well.  He also got gas gangrene.  He was treated.  He was

11     operated upon.  Unfortunately, he succumbed to his wounds.  He was very

12     young.  It was a terrible sight for all of us.  I remember that the

13     nurses cried when he died.  We were all devastated basically.  So it was

14     really a terrible experience for all of us.  And irrespective of who they

15     were, everybody was in a grave life situation.  Everybody suffered

16     equally.

17        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I tender this document, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 493 will be Exhibit P1436.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Can we display 65 ter 467.6, which is at tab 16.

23     Yes.

24        Q.   Doctor, this one is dated the 1st of November.  Do you recognise

25     this as one of your faxes?


Page 3604

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   In the middle of the page you mention that:

 3             "In the night a grenade shell fell in front of the Emergency Ward

 4     and three ambulances burned so that now we only have a partially usable

 5     one left."

 6             Could you tell the Court what impact did the destruction of your

 7     ambulances have on your work?

 8        A.   Well, the situation was compounded by that, because we could not

 9     take ambulances to fetch the wounded.  We could only use civilian cars,

10     the few that were left after so many had been destroyed.  There was a lot

11     of debris on the roads and fallen tree trunks.  The tyres would explode.

12     It was really very difficult.

13        Q.   And -- I mean, now we're at the beginning of November, and you

14     had been sending faxes through the month of October as you explained

15     earlier.  Had this situation improved in any way by the end of October?

16        A.   No.  Actually, just the opposite happened.  Things were getting

17     worse by the day.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  May I tender this document, Your Honours?

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 467.6 will be Exhibit P1437.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

22        Q.   I'd like you to look at a report dated the 2nd of November.  This

23     one is 65 ter 514, at tab 26, please.  Yes.  And in the B/C/S version, if

24     we could scroll down to the bottom part, please.  Yes.  Thank you.

25             Doctor, do you recognise this as one of your faxes?


Page 3605

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   I see that this fax is addressed to a host of addressees.  We see

 3     Admiral Brovet, et cetera.  Could you tell us in what -- in what context

 4     this fax was sent?

 5        A.   Just like before, within that context we described our situation,

 6     and we sought to have a cease-fire to help all the wounded.  I suppose

 7     that that morning I had more peace and quiet to send the faxes to

 8     everybody, not only the European mission but also to everybody else.  I

 9     tried to send one to the command of the JNA, the ministry,

10     President Tudjman, General Tus was the commander of the Main Staff of the

11     Croatian Army.

12        Q.   Now, you also inform here that you're treating another JNA

13     wounded soldier by the name of Aleksandar Markovic.  First of all, are

14     you aware as to whether the JNA did receive this letter?

15        A.   I don't know.

16        Q.   And here in the last paragraph you were asking that this is sent

17     most urgently to the command of the JNA for a cease-fire.  Were there any

18     cease-fires in the month of October and early November?

19        A.   Only when the convoy arrived with Medecins sans Frontieres.  That

20     was on the 19th of October and on that day there was no shooting or fire

21     opened.

22        Q.   We'll get to that in a moment.

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  In the meantime, Your Honours, may I ask to

24     tender this fax as well.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.


Page 3606

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 514 will be Exhibit P1438.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I will show a couple of more faxes

 4     and then I have an application to make in relation to the remaining ones.

 5     I've discussed this with my learned friend from the Defence.

 6             Could we display 65 ter 467.11, which is at tab 5.  Yes.

 7        Q.   This one is of the 3rd of November.  Do you recognise this as one

 8     of your faxes?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   This one does not have an addressee from what I could see.  Do

11     you remember who this was sent to?

12        A.   Just like the previous time, to the Croatian office of the

13     European mission.

14        Q.   Now, you explain here that on the previous day, on the 2nd of

15     November, 87 wounded persons were brought to the hospital, and that that

16     morning alone there was another 18, and that the total number of the

17     wounded, mostly civilians, including women and children, increased to

18     350.  Is this an accurate reflection of the situation at the time?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I tender this fax as well.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 467.11 will be Exhibit P1439.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

25        Q.   I'd like you to look at now at 65 ter 537, which is at tab 29.


Page 3607

 1     Yes.  This one's from the 7th of November.  Is this again one of your

 2     faxes, Dr. Bosanac?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, on this one, towards the bottom you're asking for the

 5     verification of the truthfulness of the information contained in this

 6     fax.  You asked the wounded JNA soldiers to confirm with their signature.

 7     Now, is -- what do we see?  We see some signatures next to the names

 8     here.  Could you explain the context of this, please?

 9        A.   Those JNA soldiers, this man asked them whether he could do

10     something, whether he could talk to General Raseta.  When I got hold of

11     him, he wanted to explain the situation, and I told him that that was

12     possible, and if they wanted to do so they could cosign my appeals.  They

13     wanted to do that, so I drafted my appeals and I gave them to cosign, and

14     the following name -- day in a telephone conversation when I managed to

15     get hold of Raseta, that man spoke to him in order to describe the

16     situation that we were in.  That was immediately after that shell hit

17     their room.  So that man, Sasa, described the incident to General Raseta.

18        Q.   In your conversations with General Raseta, what was his reaction

19     to your reports?

20        A.   My impression was that he didn't believe me.  That's why I

21     suggested that they should also talk to him and confirm what I said.  I

22     was present when he talked to him, and I realised that he questioned him

23     about the conditions, whether there were any Croatian soldiers there.  At

24     that time, I still believe that Raseta was influential and that he could

25     do something in order to protect the hospital and the people in it, and


Page 3608

 1     later on I realised that he did not have any say in what happened next.

 2        Q.   Now, this fax here is sent to the European mission.  Are you

 3     aware of whether this information was transmitted to General Raseta?

 4        A.   I believe so.  At that time, there were ongoing negotiations in

 5     the European mission between the Croatian government on the one side and

 6     General Raseta on the other side.  The latter represented the JNA.  The

 7     Red Cross was present as well as the leaders of the European Monitoring

 8     Mission.

 9        Q.   Now, you told us in a previous answer that later you realised

10     that he did not have a say in what happened next.  Did General Raseta

11     ever tell you to speak to someone else?

12        A.   No.  On the 19th of November when the evacuation of the hospital

13     should have been organised, he told me that he had spoken to

14     Colonel Mile Mrksic.

15        Q.   Very well.  We'll get to that point a little later.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I tender this fax as well,

17     please.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 537 will be Exhibit P1440.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

22        Q.   Finally I'd like to get to a fax of the 15th of November which is

23     at tab 34.  That's 65 ter 583.  Doctor, can you explain to the

24     Trial Chamber what this letter is?  Is this one of your letters?

25        A.   Yes, but that was actually a few days before the fall, and I


Page 3609

 1     could not fax this.  I actually read the message over the telephone.

 2        Q.   Now --

 3        A.   I could not send it in the regular way.  Everything was destroyed

 4     by then.  The police building had burnt down and they moved to another

 5     building.  They no longer had a fax machine themselves.

 6        Q.   And who did you -- who did you transmit this message to over the

 7     telephone?

 8        A.   I sent a message through the Croatian radio station in Vukovar

 9     and through the health care ministry.

10        Q.   Now, in the second paragraph you're describing the difficult

11     situation which is due to the arrival of civilians from surrounding

12     buildings.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber why civilians were

13     coming to the hospital?

14        A.   At that time, negotiations were underway to evacuate people from

15     Vukovar.  We heard that the hospital would also be evacuated as well as

16     all the civilians from the city.  That's why the civilians from all the

17     surrounding buildings started arriving in the hospital.  At that time,

18     the Yugoslav Army advanced and split the town into three parts.  You

19     could no longer go to Borovo Naselje or to Mitnica.  They occupied

20     positions on the right bank of the Vuka River, which is why the civilians

21     started arriving in the hospital from the inner city in order to be

22     closer to the nearest point of the evacuation.

23        Q.   Now, here you explain at the bottom of this message that you are

24     now treating 480 wounded on 200 square metres of space in bad conditions.

25     Having regard to what you said earlier, in the earlier paragraph about


Page 3610

 1     the arrival of civilians from the surrounding areas, could you tell the

 2     Court approximately how many people were in the hospital by mid-November?

 3     In your numbers, please include the wounded, as we can see here, and the

 4     civilians as well as the staff.

 5        A.   About 3.000 people.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, may I ask to tender this fax,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter 583 will be Exhibit P1441.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, as I've explained earlier, there

12     are a number of other faxes in Dr. Bosanac's book.  At this stage I would

13     like to tender them.  However, I do have quite a number.  Should I read

14     in the tab numbers or the 65 ter numbers?

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's first see what the Defence's position is.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

17             MR. GOSNELL:  Mr. President, we won't object subject to the

18     understanding that some of the descriptions on the 65 ter list may not be

19     precisely accurate, but we don't object to the admission of these various

20     documents.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Now, what was your next question, Mr. Demirdjian?

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I've got my headphone stuck here.  Perhaps I

24     could read the tab numbers I have here or would you prefer the 65 ter --

25     the 65 ter number?  All right.  Let's get to it.


Page 3611

 1             The first -- I have a very useful suggestion here, to do this at

 2     the end of the day once the witness has been excused and not waste any

 3     time.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Is that okay with you, Madam Registrar?  Okay.

 5     We'll do that.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I'll stop five minutes before 7.00.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Could I make another -- a different proposal?

10     Perhaps to save time even more, it would be an idea to give the witness

11     the bundle that seeks to be tendered, have the witness review them, and

12     then come to court in the morning and saying:  "I've reviewed these

13     various documents.  I confirm that they reflect telephone communications

14     or faxes that I've sent," and then we can admit them in that way.

15             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  I would hate to burden Dr. Bosanac beyond this

16     time, but if that is the position.  All the faxes that I am proposing are

17     in her book called which is called "Apeli [phoen]."  It is also on our

18     65 ter list separately.  I do see where my friend's suggestion is coming

19     from, but I'll leave it in Your Honours' hands.

20             MR. GOSNELL:  Just to add to that, I'm not sure it's a huge

21     burden.  I don't think the numbers are that great in terms of documents.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's something like 38, 38 documents, Mr. --

23             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Let me just count them here.  I have 19 here.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Nineteen you're not showing for the moment.

25             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.


Page 3612

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And they're all one-page documents.  So it

 2     wouldn't be that much of a burden to ask the witness to --

 3             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  To look at them and --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- by tomorrow morning and to tell us by tomorrow

 5     morning that indeed these are all --

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  These are here faxes.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- her faxes.

 8             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That's fine, Your Honours.  I'll organise that.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

10             MR. GOSNELL:  Sorry, just an additional comment.  They keep being

11     referred to now as faxes.  Not all of them are faxes, just in order for

12     that to be clear on the record.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I said documents to be on the safe side.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Dr. Bosanac, in relation to communications being sent from

16     Vukovar, you were not the only one sending faxes or messages; is that

17     right?

18        A.   No.  No.  Those messages were dispatched by the journalists of

19     the Croatian radio station in Vukovar.  Marin Vidic as well, he was the

20     government's commissioner for the city of Vukovar.  The reports were sent

21     by the police station members to their centres, and the Croatian Red

22     Cross constantly dispatched the lists of wounded and dead, and those

23     dispatches were sent to the Croatian Red Cross in Zagreb.

24        Q.   Now, you mentioned that the police station members also sent

25     messages to their centres.  How do you know this?  How are you aware of


Page 3613

 1     this?

 2        A.   I know because when I wanted to send my faxes, I would go to

 3     their building, and I saw that they sent their own reports to Zagreb or

 4     to some other police stations.  They sent their faxes.  Every day they

 5     received information about the dead and the wounded from us, and they

 6     would include that information into their own reports.

 7        Q.   Very well.  I'd like to show you a -- I suppose it's a fax, from

 8     the police station.  It is at 65 ter 87.1.  In the English version --

 9                           [Prosecution counsel and Case Manager confer]

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We did upload it earlier at 00087.1.  Still not

11     there?  Okay.  I can move on.  I'll get back to this tomorrow.

12        Q.   Doctor, earlier you mentioned the evacuation in the middle of

13     October.  I believe you said it was on the 19th of October; is that

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.  That should have been organised on the 11th of October.

16     We're talking about Medecins sans Frontieres, a humanitarian association

17     of doctors who promised us that they would bring medicines and medical

18     equipment and that they would come twice a week to the hospital and that

19     they would evacuate the wounded.  The first attempt was made on the 11th

20     October.  That's when they tried to come, but they were held in the

21     Vukovar barracks of the JNA.  They spent an entire night there.  They

22     left all the medicines and medical equipment there in their hands, and

23     they never arrived in the hospital.  They arrived eight days later, on

24     the 19th of October.  They arrived with empty lorries, without any drugs,

25     without any medical supplies.  However, with their help we managed to


Page 3614

 1     evacuate 108 wounded people.

 2             Many civilians arrived at the hospital on that occasion because

 3     they hoped that they would be able to leave the town with them.  The

 4     rules, however, were strict, and only the wounded could be evacuated.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Doctor.  Now, where was in convoy supposed to go after

 6     the wounded were collected from the hospital?

 7        A.   That convoy was supposed to take the agreed route across Luzac,

 8     Bogdanovac, Nustar, and on to the free territory of Croatia.  However,

 9     the convoy was made to take some other roads and travel to Djakovo from

10     1.00 p.m. until midnight.  We barely managed to find out where they were

11     by telephone.  The convoy ran into an antitank mine.  Two nurses from

12     that international organisation were wounded, and after that they excused

13     themselves, said it was too dangerous, and they could not come again to

14     help us, and that was the end of their assistance.

15        Q.   And when this convoy left the hospital, was it escorted by any of

16     the institutions at the time?

17        A.   I learned only later that it was an agreed escort made up of

18     representatives of the Yugoslav People's Army and the Croatian Army who

19     accompanied the convoy.  I only saw the truck drivers whom I knew from

20     before because they had come to the hospital earlier in similar

21     humanitarian convoys, but I did not see any of their commanders.  I don't

22     know if the defence commander Branko Borkovic perhaps met any of them.

23     In any case, I did not see any of them in the hospital.

24        Q.   Very well.  And how did this event impact the future assistance

25     from Medecins sans Frontieres?


Page 3615

 1        A.   I don't know how it impacted their later actions.  All I know is

 2     that we were very disappointed that they hadn't brought any medicines or

 3     any medical supplies because they were unable to come again and take the

 4     rest of the wounded.  They had taken only a number of them.  After they

 5     left, the attacks on the hospital and the town became even stronger.

 6        Q.   Did you send a letter to Medecins sans Frontieres after this

 7     event?

 8        A.   Yes.  I sent a letter, although I was sorry those nurses were

 9     wounded.  And after they telephoned saying they couldn't come any more, I

10     sent them a letter of gratitude and expressing my regret that they had

11     experienced such problems, and I also begged them to exert their

12     influence if they could help us in any way.

13        Q.   Now, earlier you mentioned the name of Marin Vidic.  Could you

14     tell the Court what was his role in Vukovar?

15        A.   Marin Vidic was the government's commissioner for the city of

16     Vukovar, considering that in that time of war a Crisis Staff for the

17     defence of the town had been set up and a Crisis Staff for the protection

18     of civilian structures, and Marin Vidic was at the head of them.  He was

19     like a mayor for wartime Vukovar.

20        Q.   What efforts, if any, did he make in relation to the situation in

21     the town?

22        A.   He organised the Crisis Staff at town level, and our

23     representative on that staff was our colleague Ivica Martus [phoen].  He

24     represented the hospital.  They organised as far as they were able to the

25     protection of cultural heritage, museum artefacts.  They organised


Page 3616

 1     civilian protection, the burial of the dead, but all that happened in

 2     August and September.  As the destruction and devastation intensified,

 3     they were able to do less and less, so that until the end of the month of

 4     November or perhaps the later half of November the town of Vukovar was

 5     completely destroyed.  The fire brigade headquarters were devastated, so

 6     it was difficult to organise anything.

 7        Q.   Now, towards the end of the conflict, did Marin Vidic make any

 8     attempts to meet with members of the Serbian side?

 9             MR. GOSNELL:  Objection, leading.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Well, I'm not sure I see any other way of

12     dealing with this.  I don't see how it is leading.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Overruled.  Please continue.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Marin Vidic tried in every possible

15     way to achieve an end to the shelling and bombing of the town.  He would

16     occasionally visit me and the wounded at the hospital, and two days

17     before the evacuation he came from the municipal building where the

18     Crisis Staff was headquartered and told me that he had to take some

19     measures to establish some communications to organise the evacuation.  He

20     mentioned, talking to me, that he had to make contact with Goran Hadzic

21     and come to some sort of agreement with him.

22             I was surprised.  In fact, it was not within my competence, and I

23     don't know why he mentioned that he had to make an agreement with

24     Goran Hadzic and turn over to him the keys to the city.  I didn't discuss

25     it or ask for any details.


Page 3617

 1             But I have a comment if I can tell you this, Prosecutor.  You

 2     said in your question at the end of the conflict.  It was not a conflict.

 3     It was total destruction visited upon us by the Yugoslav People's Army

 4     and their paramilitary troops.  Total destruction of all of us in the

 5     city.  It was not a conflict.  I'm sorry, but I had to say this.

 6             Marin Vidic said that he was trying to find ways to make contact

 7     with Goran Hadzic.  Now, whether he succeeded or not, I don't know.

 8        Q.   You don't know whether he succeeded in meeting with Goran Hadzic?

 9        A.   No.  I know that in the end he ended up, together with me, in

10     prison, first the military barracks and after that in Sremska Mitrovica.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I believe this is a convenient

13     time for today.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One little detail.  Did I hear the witness answer

15     "no" to your question and then give the extended answer "I know that in

16     the end," et cetera?

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Absolutely.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So it would be good that the record reflects that

19     "no" answer.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Dr. Bosanac, this is the end of the hearing for

22     today.  We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  You are still under

23     oath.  That implies that you cannot discuss with anyone your testimony

24     and that you're not allowed to talk to any of the parties.  Do you

25     understand?


Page 3618

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  The court usher will escort

 3     you out of court now.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Demirdjian.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Just in terms of the technical aspect of things,

 7     we will provide to the registry the bundle of 19 documents that I intend

 8     to tender without showing Dr. Bosanac, and perhaps that could be then

 9     provided to the VWS.  Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think that will work.  Thank you.

11             Court adjourned.

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day

14                           of April, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.

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