Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5310

 1                           Tuesday, 4 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in the courtroom.

 6     Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

 8     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  Could we have appearances,

10     please, starting with the Prosecution.

11             MS. CLANTON: [Microphone not activated]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

13             MS. CLANTON:  Good morning, Your Honour, Sarah Clanton and

14     Matthew Olmsted for the Prosecution, with our intern Maria Bukovac.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

17     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The witness may be brought in.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Do you hear me in a

21     language you understand.

22             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.  [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you

23     well in the Croatian language.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the

25     Tribunal.  Could you please state your full name and date of birth,


Page 5311

 1     please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Stipan Kraljevic,

 3     8th of January, 19 --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the year.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, 1937.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Kraljevic, you are about to make the solemn

 8     declaration by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I

 9     have to point out to you that by doing so you expose yourself to the

10     penalties of perjury should you give false or untruthful information to

11     the Tribunal.  Can I ask you now to read the solemn declaration the court

12     usher will give to you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  I

14     solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing

15     but the truth.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, your witness.

19             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           WITNESS:  STIPAN KRALJEVIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Ms. Clanton:

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kraljevic.

24        A.   Good morning.

25             MS. CLANTON:  With the permission of the Court, I'd like to lead

Page 5312

 1     the witness through his background information.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 3             MS. CLANTON:

 4        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, is it correct that you were born in Bosnia and

 5     moved to Croatia in the early 1940s?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And is it correct that you completed your gymnasium studies in

 8     Backa Palanka?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that you did your compulsory service with the JNA in

11     Montenegro from 1961 to 1962?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, is it correct that you then studied agriculture at

14     the university in Zagreb?

15        A.   I studied and graduated before I went to do my compulsory

16     military service.

17        Q.   Thank you for that.  The place where you studied, was that in

18     Zagreb?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And is it correct that you obtained further certification to be a

21     teacher?

22        A.   Since I worked in school, a number of teaching subjects had to be

23     passed and that is what I did.  I did those exams.

24        Q.   And is it correct that in 1990 you were working as a lecturer in

25     the topic of agriculture?

Page 5313

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, can you confirm that you served as mayor of Ilok

 3     starting in 1993?

 4        A.   Yes, between 1993 and 2001.

 5        Q.   And is it correct that the -- in 1990, the town of Ilok was part

 6     of the municipality of Vukovar?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And is it correct that the towns of Sarengrad, Bapska, and Mohovo

 9     are part of the local community of Ilok?

10        A.   As a matter of fact, those were all local communes of the

11     municipality of Vukovar.  That was one single municipality, yes.  Yes.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, how far is Ilok from Vukovar, the city of

13     Vukovar?

14        A.   35 kilometres.

15        Q.   And can you tell us, please, the population in Ilok in

16     March of 1991 in terms of the number of people who were living there?

17        A.   In Ilok itself, there were 6.774 inhabitants according to the

18     1991 census.  Now, in the villages surrounding Ilok, Bapska, there was

19     about 1600; Sarengrad, 1100; and Orahovo, 340.

20        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, what was the majority ethnic group in Ilok?

21        A.   In ethnical term, Ilok was a mixed settlement.  However, the

22     population of the Ilok, the majority of it, were Croats, who accounted

23     for about 64 per cent.  There were 7 per cent Serbs, 17 per cent of

24     Slovaks, which was the largest ethnic minority in the town of Ilok and we

25     can easily say in all of the Croatia as well.  As for other ethnic

Page 5314

 1     minorities, their numbers were really small.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, the villages that you've described as being part

 3     of the Ilok area, Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo, what was the majority

 4     ethnicity in those villages?

 5        A.   Over 30 [as interpreted] per cent in Sarengrad and Bapska were

 6     Croats, 4 per cent were Serbs, 64 per cent Croats in Mohovo and

 7     3 per cent Serbs.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, just to follow up on that, can you tell us

 9     again what was the percentage of Croats in Sarengrad, please?

10        A.   Over 90 per cent.

11        Q.   And in Bapska?

12        A.   Over 90 per cent.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, earlier you confirmed that you completed your

14     studies at the gymnasium level in Backa Palanka.  I'd like to ask you if

15     it was common for residents of Ilok and Backa Palanka to have business

16     and studies on both sides of the Danube River?

17        A.   I attended to the secondary school in Backa Palanka between '56

18     and '61.  At the time there was an agricultural school in Ilok.  There

19     was a secondary grammar school in Backa Palanka.  Children normally

20     attended both schools according to their preferences.  The people from

21     Ilok attended the grammar school and the others came to Backa Palanka to

22     attend the agricultural school.

23        Q.   And how are these two towns connected geographically?

24        A.   Both towns are located on both banks of the Danube River and they

25     were connected by a ferry.  Then in 1974, a bridge between Backa Palanka

Page 5315

 1     and Ilok was built.  This bridge was very important especially for

 2     Vojvodina because that was the shortest way with the western part.

 3        Q.   What was the name of this bridge?

 4        A.   Its name was the 21st of May in order to mark the birthday of

 5     President Tito.

 6        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us about the fact that you

 7     attended school in Backa Palanka yourself and that it was common for

 8     people to cross to go about their daily functions.  I want to ask you,

 9     can you describe the relations in 1990 with your neighbours in Serbia?

10        A.   The movement of people went normally.  I did not observe any

11     problems in that respect.

12        Q.   Were you a member of any political party in 1990 or shortly

13     thereafter?

14        A.   Up until 1990, 1991, I hadn't been a member of any party.  I was

15     only a member of the Croatian Christian Democratic Party.  However, this

16     party did not survive for too long and it was disbanded in 1993.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kraljevic.  I would now like to change topics and

18     ask you about what you observed happening in 1991, specifically changes

19     in your community in 1991.

20             I want to ask you if there came a time that you noticed any

21     changes in behaviour between the ethnic groups in your area?

22        A.   Well, it did not actually start only in 1990, it had been lasting

23     for quite some time because this atmosphere was felt in the central

24     committees of certain republics who were in disagreement.  This was

25     followed by self-rule elections both on the republican and local levels.

Page 5316

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, our time is limited so I'd like to focus you

 2     on what you observed in 1991, please.  Did you see any changes in your

 3     area in 1991?

 4        A.   The local government was changed following the elections, which

 5     means there were many new members.  In 1991, during the preparations for

 6     multi-party elections, an incident took place in Ilok at the Orthodox

 7     cemetery where a number of graves were desecrated or demolished, and I'm

 8     talking about the Orthodox cemetery in Ilok.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, can you tell us what you learned about how these

10     acts had been committed?

11        A.   We didn't hear anything about it because the police, who were

12     200 metres away, did not respond in any way; however, the journalists

13     from the Novi Sad television were there on the spot on the very same

14     morning and they broadcast this news.  That is how this incident was

15     recorded.  We can only speculate about who was behind it.

16        Q.   How did the fact that television from Novi Sad reported on this

17     incident prior to the police, how did that make you understand what had

18     happened there?

19        A.   The residents, including myself, perceived this as a provocation

20     and a means of a feeling of sort of mistrust towards certain ethnic

21     groups, but as I said, we might just speculate about who the perpetrators

22     were.

23        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, were you aware of an event in May 1991 in

24     Borovo Selo?

25        A.   Yes.  We knew because it was on the news, a serious crime was

Page 5317

 1     committed in which 12 policemen lost their lives and, of course, this

 2     caused high tensions among the populous.

 3        Q.   And what happened in the immediate area of Ilok after this

 4     incident at Borovo Selo which you've told us caused high tension among

 5     the population?

 6        A.   Rumours were being spread, all sorts of rumours.  Of course there

 7     were various stories going around, but the killing of such a large number

 8     of police officers naturally caused tensions.  But in addition to that,

 9     there were rumours being spread that the same thing might be repeated in

10     Ilok as well.  As a result, certain individuals, but in working together

11     with the police, started guarding the entry point to Ilok and Bapska from

12     all sides as well as in other settlements.  In that way, a duty post was

13     established at the bridge which was manned by members of the civilian

14     protection and that was all.

15        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, after the people in Ilok heard about this incident

16     and the civilian protection was put on the bridge, can you describe the

17     response from the other side of the bridge?

18        A.   Well, you know, since this duty post was established at the

19     bridge, it provided control of the movement in a way which meant that

20     people passing by were identified, their documents were checked, but this

21     did not hinder any free movement.  However, on the 10th of May, on the

22     access to the bridge from Backa, tanks arrived and were positioned at the

23     very entry point to Ilok near the bridge and thereby established their

24     own checkpoint.  The explanation was that they wanted to control the

25     traffic in order to prevent any disturbances in that respect.

Page 5318

 1        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, these tanks you've described, which army did they

 2     belong to?

 3        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army.

 4        Q.   And you've told us that this occurred on the 10th of May; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   I believe that it was on the 7th, but I cannot be certain.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And this is in May.  After the declaration of

 8     independence in June of 1991, what changes did you observe among the

 9     Serbs in Ilok?

10        A.   Well, I cannot say that there occurred any changes worth

11     mentioning.  People were communicating normally.  I believe that the

12     relations between neighbours were good; however, there were a few

13     occurrences when certain members of the Serb ethnic group went to

14     Backa Palanka to spend the night there and would then return in the

15     morning under the pretext of doing it for safety reasons, but we didn't

16     notice any need for anyone doing that.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Kraljevic.  Can you tell the Court, please, what

18     changes happened within the police after the declaration in June of 1991?

19        A.   Well, the composition of the police force compared to the

20     national composition in Croatia was disadvantageous for Croats.  About

21     50 per cent of the population of Croatia in certain parts were Croats and

22     there were parts where Serbs constituted more than 30 per cent and the

23     rest declare themselves of Yugoslavs, although I don't know what that

24     meant.  And by that, I mean that there was no Yugoslav nation as such.

25             May I continue?

Page 5319

 1        Q.   Yes, Mr. Kraljevic, if I could just focus your answer.  What I'd

 2     like to know is the changes that you could tell us about the police in

 3     June of 1991.

 4        A.   Well, this is precisely what I told you.  The number of Croatian

 5     policemen increased within the police force.  However, after the Republic

 6     of Croatia was declared independent, which was followed by the changes to

 7     the constitution and multi-party elections, Croatia had new national

 8     symbols and these symbols were prescribed as something to be worn on the

 9     caps by policemen, and I'm talking about the Croatian coat of arms.

10     However, some policemen refused to wear such caps.  As far as I know,

11     they went to Backa Palanka.  I think there were five police officers who

12     took that course.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Earlier you've told us that Vukovar is located

14     approximately 35 kilometres from Ilok.  I want to ask you if in the

15     summer of 1991 you became aware of an attack in Vukovar.

16        A.   I worked at the secondary school centre in Ilok.  It catered to

17     the whole municipality of Vukovar, and we had meetings.  During the

18     summer, I went to Vukovar for that reason and I also heard news about the

19     situation in Vukovar itself.

20             The situation was complex because barricades had been put up all

21     around, and Vukovar was cut off from Vinkovci.  It was cut off at Brsadin

22     and towards Osijek, at Trpinje in the direction of Dalj and Borovo Selo.

23     That would be briefly it.  And of course the population couldn't move

24     about freely, which certainly resulted in some tension.

25        Q.   And from Ilok, what could you hear from this area?

Page 5320

 1        A.   Radio and television were still operating.  People were

 2     travelling to Vukovar and back.  There was coverage of any event that had

 3     happened anywhere.

 4        Q.   And from Ilok, was the fighting audible?

 5        A.   Well, no, but when, on the 24th of August, an overall attack at

 6     Vukovar began, we heard it from Ilok because airplanes flew over Ilok at

 7     very low altitude.  We could also hear bombing.  However, we had heard

 8     bombing at Ilok before.  If I may, I would like to mention some events

 9     that are characteristic of Ilok when some incidents happened.

10        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, just to clarify the point that you were just

11     making.  Whose aircraft could you hear?

12        A.   There was only one organised army and that was the Yugoslav

13     People's Army.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And I do want to ask you now about specific incidents

15     in Ilok between the JNA tanks that you've described for us that were on

16     the bridge and the forces, the civilian protection that was in Ilok.  Can

17     you tell us what happened in July of 1991?

18        A.   In July 1991, it was on the 8th of July to be precise, an

19     incident happened in the evening hours.  As I have already said, by the

20     bridge there was a tank unit of the Yugoslav People's Army.  Some

21     100 metres away, the police of the MUP of Croatia had its own checkpoint.

22     As I've said, the distance between the two was about 100 metres.

23     Suddenly, a tank-mounted machine-gun was used to destroy a vehicle

24     belonging to Ilok police station.  There were four persons in that

25     vehicle, one of whom was killed immediately and the others were wounded.

Page 5321

 1     They were taken to hospital in Slavonski Brod.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, this person who was killed, can you tell the

 3     Trial Chamber his age or where he was from?

 4        A.   The person was from Sarengrad.  It was a young man who had only

 5     recently joined the police station in Ilok.  He may have been 20 or a bit

 6     over 20 years old at the time.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, what was the response from the police that had

 8     been at the checkpoint to being fired on by this machine-gun that was on

 9     a tank?

10        A.   Nearby, how near exactly I don't know, there was probably a

11     person belonging to the ZNG and that man destroyed a tank with a

12     hand-held rocket launcher, a Zolja.

13        Q.   And what was the response by the JNA when their tank was

14     destroyed by the hand-held rocket launcher?

15        A.   Of course there was a protest by the JNA representative but on

16     the next day around noon, something happened at Principovac.  There was a

17     group of ZNG members there who had come to Ilok before that and two

18     aircraft opened machine-gun fire on that group of ZNG members, who were

19     playing soccer at that time.  One person was killed and I believe that

20     two were wounded.

21        Q.   How far is Principovac from Ilok?

22        A.   If I may, let me just mention that.  In July -- it was in July

23     that this incident happened, but on the other side of our local community

24     in the direction of Sid, a group of JNA members with tanks arrived and

25     took up positions there so that Ilok, from that moment on, was completely

Page 5322

 1     surrounded.  That would be a short account of these events.  However, let

 2     me also add that the ZNG, who were accommodated at an agricultural

 3     facility, moved to town for safety reasons because JNA contingents were

 4     very close.  But after that incident I have just mentioned, the ZNG left

 5     the area.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  If you could tell the Chamber, please, how far

 7     Principovac is from Ilok?

 8        A.   Yes.  First of all, Ilok is on the promontory next to the Danube

 9     at an altitude of about 70 metres.  There is another such promontory that

10     we call Principovac which is some 2 kilometres from the centre of Ilok,

11     and there was an excellent view from there.  You could see the entire

12     area around Ilok.

13        Q.   Thank you.  As you've just told us, there was a JNA response

14     which was to use aircraft to attack this position in Principovac of --

15     and the agricultural building of the ZNG.  I want to ask, were any other

16     buildings shelled in Ilok at this time?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you tell us which buildings, please?

19        A.   It happened on the 20th of July, I think, by the bridge on the

20     Ilok side, of course.  There was a private workshop -- that is actually a

21     workshop and a store.  It was called Zec.  Suddenly, that workshop was

22     attacked with artillery and it was damaged.  At the same time, the spire

23     of the Catholic church in Ilok was targeted and damaged, so were some

24     private houses.  Fortunately, nobody was killed.  As far as I know, only

25     one person was wounded.

Page 5323

 1        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I now want to move to talk about events that were

 2     happening in the other villages that are near Ilok in the Western Srem

 3     region.  This would be in the summer and fall of 1991.  I'm going to ask

 4     you, when did you first hear about the use of aircraft or other JNA

 5     equipment in towns or villages in Western Srem?

 6        A.   I cannot hear the interpretation.  Now I can hear it.  I cannot

 7     hear anything.

 8        Q.   I will ask my question again.

 9             I want to ask you, when did you first hear about events in other

10     towns and villages in Western Srem involving the JNA?

11        A.   Yes.  Let me try to focus.  There are many villages there.  Let

12     me -- I'll try to get my bearings.

13             On the border towards Sid, there is Tovarnik, on the road from

14     Sid to Vinkovci.  But even before that, there were incidents at Sotin.

15        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, perhaps I can focus my question a bit more.  Prior

16     to the events in Sotin and Tovarnik, were you aware of any other town or

17     village in the area that had been involved in attack with the JNA.  The

18     time period I'm interested in is the late summer of 1991.

19        A.   Yes.  In the late summer of 1991, and if I remember well, it was

20     on the 24th of August when the real attack of the JNA on Vukovar began.

21     On the 25th of August, there were air raids, and at that moment,

22     four persons were killed in a car.  Two of them were from Ilok who

23     happened to be in Vukovar.  Of course, that was very discomforting.

24             As of the 24th, there was daily combat activity in Vukovar, which

25     was very worrying.  Sotin is the first village in the direction of Ilok

Page 5324

 1     when you come from Vukovar.  It was attacked by aircraft on the

 2     28th of August, I think.  It's very telling because at that very time,

 3     there was a funeral at Sotin and that added to the dismay over the air

 4     raid.  From the 5th of September, there was no more communication between

 5     Ilok and Vukovar.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, a moment ago you mentioned Tovarnik.  I want to

 7     ask you what happened in Tovarnik and if you can give us an approximate

 8     date?

 9        A.   There was an ultimatum issued to Tovarnik that they should

10     surrender to the JNA, otherwise the army would enter by force.  As far as

11     I know, Mr. Burik, the priest, went to Sid to negotiate but to no avail.

12     And there was an attack on the 24th of September.  Many people from

13     Tovarnik came to Ilok through Lovas and some of them went in the other

14     direction, through Nijemci, and Tovarnik was left without the majority of

15     its inhabitants.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us that there was this attack on

17     Tovarnik after there was an ultimatum that was received and there were

18     negotiations that didn't lead anywhere.  Can you describe for the Chamber

19     what you know about how the attack was actually carried out, what the

20     steps were, and who was engaging in the attack?

21        A.   Well, you know, I wasn't there and I can't give you a full

22     description.  But infantry and tanks of the army entered the village and

23     so did paramilitaries.  I know that there were many victims at Tovarnik

24     but I don't want to speculate about their numbers.  I know that some

25     60 to 80 people were killed there in those few days.

Page 5325

 1        Q.   And what you've described happening in Tovarnik, did this happen

 2     in other villages in Western Srem, similar events?

 3        A.   Of course the main target was Vukovar and the army proceeded --

 4     or, rather, was moving there gradually.  I could mention Ilaca, where

 5     similar events happened over a course of a few days.  And other villages

 6     such as Lovas, which is near to Ilok, there was also an ultimatum issued.

 7     There was always shelling from heavy weapons.  At Tovarnik, for example,

 8     many houses were badly damaged.  The Catholic church was totally

 9     destroyed, and the same thing started at Lovas and in other villages

10     closer to Vukovar.

11        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, the villages that you've named, Ilaca, Lovas,

12     can you tell us what was the majority ethnic group in those villages.

13        A.   Yes, I can tell you.  Based on the census, over 60 per cent of

14     the population of Tovarnik were Croats and some 30 per cent were Serbs.

15     At Lovas, over 90 per cent of the population was Croatian and there were

16     about 7 per cent Serbs.

17             MS. CLANTON:  Now I would like the assistance of the Registrar,

18     please, to call up 65 ter 06329.1.  This is Prosecution Exhibit 1723.

19     And for this to be on the monitor for the witness, please.  It's a road

20     map of eastern Croatia and it's at tab 58.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the record, this is Exhibit P1723.

22     Thank you.

23             MS. CLANTON:

24        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you see a map on the screen in front of you?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 5326

 1             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask, please, for the usher's

 2     assistance to provide Mr. Kraljevic with a pen that he can use to mark on

 3     the map.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, I would like for you to draw a circle around

 5     the villages that were attacked in the way that you've previously

 6     described.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  And sorry, perhaps we can zoom in a bit.  Is it

 8     possible?  I'm interested in the area south and east of Vukovar, please.

 9     A bit to the right.  Would it be possible to go a bit further so that we

10     can see to the Croatian border?  That's great.  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, if you could circle the towns that you know

12     experienced events, experienced attacks like the ones you've just

13     described?

14        A.   Tovarnik, Ilaca, Lovas, and before that, we mentioned Sotin.

15        Q.   Were there any other villages that were attacked in the fall of

16     1991?

17        A.   It was further away from us so news didn't travel so easily, but

18     we know that there were incidents at Berak, and in these villages,

19     Cakovci, Tompojevci and Miklusevci.  I don't think I need to go further

20     west.  I know that in this triangle, Tompojevci, Miklusevci, Cakovci,

21     there is a rather strong ethnic minority of Ukrainians and Ruthenians.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us about the villages that were

23     little a bit further away from Ilok, were there any villages going in the

24     direction of Ilok that you recall were also attacked?

25        A.   We can mention Bapska and Sarengrad first.  It was on the 4th --

Page 5327

 1     just a minute.  It was the 4th of October when, around noon, Sarengrad

 2     was suddenly attacked with artillery and boats from the Danube and from

 3     the other side of the Danube by forces of the JNA.  That part of

 4     Sarengrad is easily visible from the other bank of the Danube.  Sarengrad

 5     is on the river itself, and many houses were damaged and so was the

 6     Orthodox church, which can be seen very well.  There's also a Catholic

 7     church there but it was not damaged because it wasn't so easily visible.

 8             A civilian was killed and two members of the civil protection

 9     were killed in a car.  They happened to be there in that car and got

10     killed.

11        Q.   I'm going to ask you to pause there.  I see that you've circled

12     the town of Lovas.  Can you tell me how many people were killed in Lovas

13     when it was attacked?

14        A.   I'm sorry, may I first finish with Sarengrad because Bapska was

15     attacked on that very same day, the 4th.  Representatives of the JNA were

16     deployed to the south of Sid.  Many houses were damaged and a few people

17     were wounded, and with it, I would end.

18             Now, to come to Lovas, this happened practically a week later, if

19     this was on the 4th, and then again on the 10th, Lovas came under attack.

20     As a result, according to the information I received from the observers

21     some time later, 22 casualties were -- and all of them were civilians.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, you've shown us where these villages are that

23     were attacked.  Can you describe for us -- you don't need to mark

24     anything, just tell us in which direction the majority of the people fled

25     after their towns had been attacked?

Page 5328

 1        A.   Speaking of Lovas and Opatovac, which is on the very bank of the

 2     Danube, this is Opatovac, this is Mohovo, the only possibility for the

 3     population to withdraw and flee was towards Ilok.  There was no other

 4     option.  Similarly, the population of Sarengrad and/or Bapska were also

 5     withdrawing towards Ilok so that at that time, there was a large number

 6     of civilians in Ilok, and there were fewer and fewer of facilities

 7     providing conditions for normal life, which, of course, caused problems

 8     for the residents of Ilok.

 9        Q.   I want to stop you there.  Just so that we can be done with this

10     map, you now circled Opatovac and Mohovo.  And for the record, I just

11     want to make clear, have you circled these towns because they were

12     attacked and the people fled?

13        A.   No, they were not attacked.

14        Q.   So that we can record the information that you've given to us, I

15     would like for you to please mark next to Opatovac and Mohovo the letter

16     N so we can record that they were not attacked, please.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Could you -- I'm sorry, I know it's difficult to use the pen.  I

19     think that will be a bit difficult to read.  Could you please mark again

20     the letter N next to Opatovac and Mohovo for the record.

21        A.   [Marks].  I have no experience with this kind of pen, therefore I

22     apologise.

23        Q.   It's okay.

24             MS. CLANTON:  At this time the Prosecution would seek to tender

25     this map as marked by the witness, please.

Page 5329

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P1723 marked by the witness in court

 3     shall be assigned Exhibit Number P2017.  Thank you.

 4             MS. CLANTON:  And we can take that down, please.

 5        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, a moment ago you were describing the events in

 6     Bapska, and previously you told us about ultimatums that were delivered

 7     to the residents of these towns.  I wanted to ask you if you ever had

 8     occasion to see a copy of such an ultimatum?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask for the Registrar to please

11     bring up 65 ter 00418, which is P316.  This is tab 11.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it.

13             MS. CLANTON:

14        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise this as a document that you

15     provided to the investigators of the OTP?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber the name of the person who

18     authored this?

19        A.   The author of this document is last name Barjaktarevic, first

20     name probably Slobodan, but I'm sure about his last name,

21     Major Barjaktarevic.  He issued this document and sent it with

22     Boro Tomic, who was working at Mesnica in Sid.  He was a resident of Sid,

23     but in the past he used to live in Bapska.  And he was the one who handed

24     over the document to representatives of the local commune.

25        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recall the names of the representatives of

Page 5330

 1     the local commune who received this document?

 2        A.   Their names were Bozinovic and Rukavina.  I believe that those

 3     were the Rukavina brothers, Tomislav and -- I don't know exactly the

 4     first name of the other one.  Rukavina.

 5        Q.   And after this ultimatum was provided to these persons who were

 6     the representatives of Bapska, what happened in Bapska?

 7        A.   Naturally, this document was exceptionally threatening in nature

 8     and the population found it very hard to reach a decision.  However, the

 9     fulfillment of such conditions was not possible and a large number of the

10     inhabitants left for Ilok.

11        Q.   And earlier you told us that there was an attack on Ilok.  How

12     did you first hear about this document -- I'm sorry, an attack on Bapska,

13     excuse me.

14        A.   Yes.  I received this document from an office in Zagreb.  It was

15     handed over to me by the representative of the Institute for History,

16     while they had received it from the TV station.  Presumably it had been

17     given to the journalists by the local residents, and that is how the

18     document found its way to the Institute for History and eventually to

19     Ilok and me.

20        Q.   What I want to ask you is at the time, so close to the time of

21     the date of this document and then the attack on Bapska, how did you

22     receive information that such a document had been provided?  I don't mean

23     actually seeing the document but just that there was such a document that

24     had been provided?

25        A.   They received information at the civilian protection HQ.  I was

Page 5331

 1     not a member of the civilian protection staff and I didn't know anything

 2     about it at the time.  I learned about this only a few days later, but

 3     yes, the civilian protection staff.  Because from Bapska, they

 4     immediately went to the civilian protection staff to obtain information

 5     because, of course, once the attack on Bapska started, members of the

 6     civilian protection forces joined the defence of Bapska.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us before that after these towns

 8     including Bapska were attacked, the majority of the civilian population

 9     fled to Ilok.  I would like for you to explain briefly, describe the

10     conditions in Ilok with the refugees coming in.

11        A.   There was a huge number of civilians who found shelter in Ilok.

12     The Red Cross of Ilok made arrangements for their accommodation in

13     private houses in socially-owned facilities, various halls, et cetera, so

14     that there was an enormous number of people in the town itself.  Even in

15     my own house, there were six people from Lovas whom we put up.  They were

16     mostly moving around the centre of town but would come over to spend the

17     night.  It was a tense situation.  It was difficult.  We only had four

18     GPs.  There were no medicines and the situation was very difficult.

19             I can tell you that in the course of all those days, life

20     nevertheless went normally, so to say.  There was even a bus service for

21     as long as it was possible to maintain it, and I'm talking about the

22     service between Ilok and Backa Palanka.  Cazmatrans, the company serviced

23     the route from Ilok, and there was another Serbian company driving from

24     Backa Palanka.  However, on one day, while Cazmatrans bus was in

25     Backa Palanka, a number of individuals burst into the bus, identified

Page 5332

 1     themselves as members of the Territorial Defence and they simply

 2     requisitioned the bus and it had never been seen again.

 3             Since we also had a terrible problem with food, and particularly

 4     with medicines, in Ilok, the only person who was brave enough to go to

 5     Sid was Ivica Matkovic.  He managed to cross the border and he drove a

 6     trailer lorry there, filled it with food and medicines, and on the way he

 7     was stopped at Sid, sent him to prison, and they confiscated the whole

 8     load of truck.  That's how life was and how communications were.

 9             I think as early as on the 6th of October, Ilok had been

10     receiving electricity from Backa Palanka because all the lines with the

11     Croatian electrical grid were severed.  On that day, electricity supply

12     was simply cut off and all lines were practically severed.  Fridges were

13     not working.  Food was rotting in the fridge.  There was no radio

14     transmission.  There was no TV broadcast.  A few people had transistor

15     radios, but since the relays were also demolished, we could not listen to

16     Radio Zagreb at all.  The only radio station that we could listen to was

17     Radio Osijek.  However, Belgrade-based radio stations were perfectly

18     audible.

19        Q.   I'm going to stop you there, please, Mr. Kraljevic.  I think

20     you've given --

21        A.   Very well.

22        Q.   -- a good idea of the conditions at that time in terms of the

23     refugees and supplies and the electricity.

24             A moment ago, you mentioned that there were persons from the

25     Red Cross who were involved in trying to deal with the situation in Ilok.

Page 5333

 1     During this time period, I want to ask you, were there any other persons,

 2     representatives from other organisations who were present in Ilok?

 3        A.   Before the 8th of October, there were no other individuals that

 4     could have provided assistance in a humanitarian way.  This was something

 5     that the citizens themselves organised.

 6             When I mentioned the Red Cross, I meant that the population of

 7     Ilok held themselves as well, not only rely -- they didn't rely only on

 8     the Red Cross.  The situation was very serious although I must say that

 9     there was a certain level of communication; however, at one point we

10     realised that Ilok was surrounded and that two monitors managed to come

11     to Ilok across the bridge.  I am talking about Hugh Cunningham, a

12     Canadian, and Petr Kypr, a monitor from Prague, in Czechoslovakia.

13        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, to stop you for a moment, what organisations did

14     these monitors represent?

15        A.   I believe that they were European Union monitors, but I don't

16     know exactly.  Yes, European monitors.  I don't know the exact name of

17     the organisation, really.

18        Q.   And when these monitors arrived in Ilok, what did you tell them

19     about the situation in terms of the number of people and the difficulties

20     that you've described?

21        A.   A few of us, I think there were three or four of us, informed

22     them about the entire situation; however, they were not satisfied with

23     that.  They wanted to see for themselves.  They went around Ilok.  They

24     talked to people, and they could verify everything that we described for

25     them, which is the same as I did for you now.  And in that way, they

Page 5334

 1     managed to familiarise themselves with the situation in Ilok and the

 2     surrounding area.

 3             MS. CLANTON:  I would like for the assistance of the Registrar,

 4     please, to pull up 65 ter 00381.  This is tab 3.  It's a report of the

 5     monitors, the European Commission, dated the 9th of October, 1991.

 6             Could we have the B/C/S translation as well.  And if we could

 7     move the B/C/S a bit to the left so we can see the left margin, please.

 8     Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I would like to you read in the B/C/S, which is on

10     the left-hand side of your screen, points 1 through 5, and then let me

11     know when you're done, please.

12        A.   I have finished.  May I read it now.  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.

13     Number one, Ilok wasn't attacked.

14        Q.   You can read it to yourself and let me know when you're done

15     reading 1 through 5.

16        A.   I've read it.

17        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Kraljevic, we see in this report that the team of

18     monitors, I believe you said you met with a Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Kypr,

19     that they visited Ilok and this report says that -- the report describes

20     the situation in Ilok.  And in point 5, do you see where it says that:

21             "Due to the factors which aren't listed above, the whole

22     community is under extreme stress."

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Is this an accurate statement of the situation in Ilok when the

25     monitors arrived?

Page 5335

 1        A.   Yes, even more than that.  In a nutshell, this was a description

 2     of the prevailing situation.

 3             MS. CLANTON:  At this time, the Prosecution wishes to tender this

 4     document into evidence, please.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P2018.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MS. CLANTON:  And we could take that down now, please.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I want to change topics now and I want to ask you

10     about the negotiations -- may I proceed?

11        A.   Please go ahead.

12        Q.   I want to ask you about the negotiations that were held in

13     October of 1991 between the negotiating commission comprised of

14     representatives of Ilok and the JNA.  My first question is:  When did you

15     become involved in negotiations with the JNA?

16        A.   I became personally involved on the 7th of October; however, the

17     negotiations with representatives of the Yugoslav Army lasted throughout

18     the whole summer because representatives of the local government, the

19     president and his deputies were maintaining contact, and due to the fact

20     that fields had to be worked and since the army was deployed in the area,

21     we always had to pass through these checkpoints, and that is why the

22     negotiations had been going for so long even before I joined them.

23             At first, a commission was set up made up of a number of people

24     representing all ethnic communities so that the negotiations could be

25     channeled properly and so that always the same persons would be involved.

Page 5336

 1     This provided for continuous negotiations, primarily with

 2     Colonel Grahovac whose units were stationed in Vojvodina, but also near

 3     the bridge in the territory of the town of Ilok.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, can you tell me what position did you hold on

 5     this commission?

 6        A.   At an extended meeting of the city council, a committee or a

 7     commission was elected made up of several members.  Among them was, for

 8     example, Sulejman Salihovic, Josip Cermak, a Slovak by ethnicity.

 9     Salihovic was a Muslim by affiliation.  Then Lazar Kuljancic, a Serb;

10     Slobodan Savic, a Serb; Maja Samsalovic, who represented women.  Then

11     there was Ivan Mrsic.  He was the president of the Ilok Assembly.  Then

12     villages were represented by Plazonic of Bapska, Rendulic of Lovas, and

13     from Sarengrad, yes, Dr. Holoker from Sarengrad.  Well, that would be

14     more or less the composition of this commission.

15             After the commission was set up, we discussed issues at their

16     headquarters in Backa Palanka.  It was a long meeting --

17        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I'm going to ask you to pause for a moment,

18     please.

19             The specific question that I would like for you to answer first

20     is:  What was your position on this commission?

21        A.   Actually, at that time I was elected chairman of that commission

22     as a senior person.  I used to be a teacher in the secondary school, and

23     on the basis of that, they believed me to be a serious and composed

24     person capable of discussing and talking.

25             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I'm mindful of the time.

Page 5337

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Ms. Clanton.

 2             Mr. Kraljevic, this is the time for our first break,

 3     30-minute break.  We'll come back at 11.00.  And the court usher will

 4     escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you very much.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

10             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, if I may, while the witness is being

11     brought in.  During the break, I spoke to Mr. Zivanovic and he's

12     indicated that the Defence does not have an objection to the addition of

13     the two documents that were provided by Mr. Kraljevic yesterday.  These

14     were disclosed and then sent through by separate e-mail, and so at this

15     time we would like to ask that they be added to the 65 ter list.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Are they already on your list of documents?

17             MS. CLANTON:  They are.  They are on the list that we sent

18     through last night.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Being tab numbers?

20             MS. CLANTON:  59.  And there's actually a second 59 which should

21     have been a 60.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Two 59s.  Okay.

23             MS. CLANTON:  The 65 ter numbers are 06442 and 06443.

24                           [The witness takes the stand]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may add them to your 65 ter list, to the

Page 5338

 1     65 ter list, Ms. Clanton.

 2             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Ms. Clanton.

 4             MS. CLANTON:

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, before the break we were speaking about the

 6     commission that was formed and your position on this commission as the

 7     chairman.  I would like to ask you, were you aware of negotiations taking

 8     place -- I'm sorry, let me withdraw that.

 9             You have told us that you were aware of negotiations taking place

10     prior to the time that the commission was formed in October of 1991, and

11     I want to ask you what you heard about who participated in the

12     negotiations prior to October 1991.

13        A.   Petar Cobankovic took part in these negotiations.  He was the

14     deputy of the president of the local commune of Ilok.  Furthermore, there

15     was Ivan Mrsic, who was president of the Assembly of the local commune of

16     Ilok.  Then there was Borislav Magovac, who worked at Backa Palanka and

17     knew many people there, including the mayor and others.  Then there was

18     Ivan Uros, he was also a member of the Croatian parliament.

19             There were talks about various topics such as working the land

20     and other problems.  The most serious problems were also discussed, such

21     as the eviction of population, and the army entering villages and towns.

22     Then the problem of displaced persons at Ilok and problems connected with

23     that.

24        Q.   Can I stop you there, please.  You've told us the persons who

25     attended from Ilok.  Can you describe for the Chamber who attended on the

Page 5339

 1     other side for these earlier negotiations?

 2        A.   For the other side, there was always Petar Grahovac, colonel of

 3     the Yugoslav army, and the representatives of Backa Palanka were the

 4     president of the municipality, as far as I know.  And when I was present

 5     at the talks at Sid, there was also the deputy of the president of the

 6     municipality of Sid.

 7             There was also the deputy of the president of the Vukovar

 8     Assembly, Mr. Kojic.  I'm not sure about his exact position, though.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I'm going to stop you again, please.  These

10     earlier negotiations that you've told us you heard about but did not take

11     part in, what was the thing that the JNA wanted from those negotiations?

12        A.   The JNA had some main goals.  First, for the civil protection to

13     surrender all their weapons.  Secondly, they wanted the army to be let

14     into the populated places and search them.  They also wanted to apply

15     sanctions to the people who had caused tensions or committed crimes in

16     those areas.  They simply wanted to enter the town and impose military

17     rule.

18        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, what month were these negotiations held, these

19     negotiations that you were not part of?

20        A.   The talks at Sid took place on the 30th of September.  There were

21     other talks in early October, but there were other talks even before.

22     This would be it in a nutshell.

23        Q.   Okay.  Now I'd like to ask you about the talks that you

24     participated in.  You've told us that there were talks in Backa Palanka

25     and that there was an officer of the Yugoslav army named Colonel Grahovac

Page 5340

 1     who was involved in those talks.  Can you tell us what Colonel Grahovac

 2     said would happen if the wishes of the JNA were not respected?

 3        A.   The JNA demanded what I have just stated.  Unless their demands

 4     were met, that is the weapons, which were light weapons, rifles,

 5     possession of the civil protection, they were to be surrendered by the

 6     bridge at the Zec workshop and controlled by the army.  They also wanted

 7     to be allowed to take the city.  Otherwise, they would use all their

 8     firepower to make it happen.

 9        Q.   And what did Colonel Grahovac say about the events that could

10     take place in Ilok compared to what was taking place in Vukovar?

11        A.   Yes.  He said that their actions would be such that the combat

12     wouldn't go on for days, but given the imbalance of power, it would all

13     be over within hours.  And that was a realistic expectation given the

14     imbalance of power.

15        Q.   Now, other than Colonel Grahovac, who else did you meet with from

16     the JNA?

17        A.   Colonel Tomic also attended the meetings regularly.  Our

18     negotiating committee representing the town of Ilok said that we couldn't

19     yield to their demands because we didn't have the authority to take such

20     decisions.  We were willing to disarm the civil protection but wanted to

21     store the weapons at the depot of the Ilok police.  Furthermore, there

22     was no legal or constitutional provision allowing the army to enter Ilok

23     and keep law and order there.  That was for the MUP, that is, the police,

24     to do.

25        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I'm going to pause you again and ask you, you've

Page 5341

 1     given us the names of Colonel Grahovac and Colonel Tomic.  Were there any

 2     other officers of the JNA who you remember meeting with?

 3        A.   Not up until the 11th of October.  But General Dragoljub

 4     Arandjelovic was Colonel Grahovac's superior, and the latter said that

 5     that was the man to talk to about possible solutions to this crisis.  And

 6     he suggested that we go to Sid to speak to General Arandjelovic.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  At this time I would like the Registrar's

 8     assistance.  If we could please pull up 65 ter 05030.6.  This is a

 9     video-clip that comes from the video which has ERN V0004590, and in the

10     packet it's at tab 29.  This is a news report, and I would like to play

11     it without the sound and I only want to play a part of it.  And after we

12     play it once through, we'll go back and pause at a certain point, please.

13             If we could get it ready to play, please, from 34 minutes and

14     3 seconds to 34 minutes and 30 seconds.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MS. CLANTON:

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, were you able to see the image on the screen

18     in front of you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you recognise either of the men who appear in this video-clip?

21        A.   I see one man and that's General Arandjelovic.

22             MS. CLANTON:  At this time we'd like to tender this still, which

23     has a separate 65 ter number.  It's at 34 minutes and 30 seconds, and

24     that 65 ter is 05030.10.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, is that a clip or the photograph of

Page 5342

 1     this man -- the image of this man?

 2             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to tender the image, please.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The image.  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P2019.  Thank

 5     you.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And I saw the witness change his glasses so he

 7     probably did not see the beginning of the clip where the other man

 8     appeared.  I don't know if it is of any importance to you but just

 9     telling you.

10             MS. CLANTON:  I think since he's identified the person who is at

11     the still at the time code where the video was paused, I'm comfortable

12     with his identification.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you.

14             MS. CLANTON:

15        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, a moment ago you told us about the demands of the

16     JNA, and you stated that the position of the commission was that they

17     would not be able to agree to those including the surrender of weapons.

18     I'd like to know if you ever provided an alternative peace proposal to

19     the JNA?

20        A.   Yes, I was going to say that, that we put forward an alternative

21     proposal, namely for the civil protection to be disarmed and all their

22     weapons to be placed at the police station so that the police may do

23     their work.  Because there were no conflicts, no clashes among the

24     population of the town or in the surrounding villages.  There's never

25     been -- there had never been one incident justifying an intervention from

Page 5343

 1     outside.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I want to ask you, please, were you able to give

 3     your alternative proposal to General Arandjelovic?

 4        A.   Yes, we were.  We gave them our proposal but they never even

 5     looked at it.  General Arandjelovic made his own proposal which was

 6     actually an ultimatum for the surrender of the weapons.  It had a number

 7     of articles and he demanded that we sign it immediately.  We replied that

 8     we couldn't do that because it was for the citizens to decide about that

 9     in a referendum.  Our committee didn't have the authority to make such a

10     decision.

11        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, the ultimatum that was given to you, to your

12     committee by General Arandjelovic, what did it say about the surrender of

13     weapons?

14        A.   In that article or that provision of the agreement, which was an

15     ultimatum, stated that all the weapons had to be surrendered by

16     12.00 noon on the following day.  The place where that should be done was

17     the workshop of Ivan Zec controlled by the JNA.  If that wasn't done, the

18     army would enter the town and fulfill their task.

19             MS. CLANTON:  I would like the Registrar to please pull up

20     65 ter 00403, which is Prosecution Exhibit 318.  This is at tab 6.

21        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise this as a document that you

22     provided to investigators of the OTP?

23        A.   On the right side, no.  On one side, there is the agreement

24     issued by the Yugoslav army, and on the other side there's something in

25     English.  Oh, must be the English translation.  This is the agreement as

Page 5344

 1     proposed by Arandjelovic on the 12th of October.

 2        Q.   I would like to ask you to look at clause 1, please.  It says

 3     that all weapons should be surrendered to the JNA, in particular to the

 4     members of the 1st Military District.

 5        A.   Regardless of how they were obtained, to the military police of

 6     the 1st Military District, safe access to Ilok, and a search of all

 7     private, social and state facilities --

 8        Q.   Sir, if I could ask you to pause, please.  I didn't intend for

 9     you to read it.

10             If you could now look at clause 7, please.  Here it says that if

11     weapons are used or if the security of the JNA is threatened, retaliatory

12     measures are authorised.  I want to ask you what kind of retaliatory

13     measures did you think could happen?

14        A.   First of all, there was never any threat to the security of JNA

15     members, nor was that possible in practice.  But retaliatory measures is

16     a phrase that we understood implying everything that had already been

17     happening in all those villages, that houses would be entered, that

18     people would be killed, that there would be no law and order, which would

19     allow individuals to commit crimes, atrocities, beatings.  So that was

20     what we could expect.  It had happened at Bapska, Tovarnik, Lovas before,

21     basically everywhere where the units had entered.

22        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you told us that when this ultimatum was put to

23     you, the members of the negotiating commission could not agree to it and

24     that they had to go back and speak to the people.  Now, before the

25     meeting ended with General Arandjelovic, do you remember if the members

Page 5345

 1     of the commission asked any questions to General Arandjelovic?

 2        A.   It was a long conversation because there was a number of people

 3     there, the entire committee, practically, and I mentioned the names

 4     already.  For example, Mr. Mato Brletic, the Ilok police commander, told

 5     the General that there were over 10.000 people at Ilok and asked him if

 6     he wasn't sorry because there would have to be casualties.  Arandjelovic

 7     replied:  "I'm a soldier and I will do what I'm told, that is take the

 8     territory."

 9             On the 10th, the previous day, at Lovas, over 20 people, actually

10     22 to be precise, which figure I learned later from the European

11     monitors, had been killed.  Mr. Rendulic asked why so many people had

12     been killed at Lovas.  The General replied it had been done in

13     retaliation for the death of a soldier whose body was found in a

14     cornfield.  But there was no body found in a cornfield.  Nobody ever

15     proved that.  This was a clear indication of what we could expect if the

16     units were to enter town.

17        Q.   Now, I want to ask you about what was happening amongst the

18     community leaders of Ilok at this time, so after you finished your

19     meeting with General Arandjelovic when he delivered this ultimatum, I

20     want to know if you recall that there were discussions among the

21     community representatives about what had happened during those

22     negotiations?

23        A.   Representatives of Sarengrad -- excuse me, Bapska, given the fact

24     that the majority of Bapska residents were in Ilok, asked Arandjelovic to

25     go to Bapska in order to collect some of their belongings, at least the

Page 5346

 1     basic ones --

 2        Q.   If I could ask you to pause for a moment.  The question that I've

 3     asked you actually pertains to what was happening in Ilok at the time, if

 4     there were any meetings among people in Ilok about what had happened

 5     during the negotiations.

 6        A.   All I wanted to say was to describe what was still happening in

 7     the meeting of the 11th, when General Arandjelovic issued a few passes to

 8     citizens allowing them to go to Bapska and gather their things.  I'm

 9     sorry, I'll finish very soon.

10        Q.   Can I just ask you to pause there because we will come to these

11     topics, but for right now, I want to ask you about when you went back to

12     Ilok.

13             Were there meetings of any community group to discuss what had

14     happened in the negotiations?

15        A.   Well, I believe that our commission conveyed all the information

16     to the citizens.  It typically happened in the culture hall where a huge

17     crowd of citizens were present, not only representatives of the

18     authorities from Bapska, Lovas and other places.  Everybody was

19     interested to know what was going on.  We informed them about the

20     negotiations because the majority of residents wanted to protect their

21     own lives.  We also discussed the issue of evacuation of the population

22     so as to see how to deal with things for at least a certain period of

23     time until the issues have been resolved.  You are probably aware that at

24     the time, there were intense intergovernmental talks at the highest level

25     between Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Milosevic, and at the time, we expected a

Page 5347

 1     certain agreement to be reached which would calm the situation.  Now,

 2     there were constant agreements being signed about cease-fire but

 3     cease-fire never happened.  So there were negotiations going on a daily

 4     basis, but the point was that nobody was willing to leave their place of

 5     residence and that was the main point.

 6             When we talked to the citizens, we told them --

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, what I want focus on is what you just said, that

 8     you were part of the group that talked to the citizens and that these

 9     questions about solutions at a national level and also about what would

10     happen in Ilok were being raised and addressed in your community, which

11     you've just told us.

12             MS. CLANTON:  I would like to ask for the Registrar to please

13     bring up 65 ter 00214, which is Prosecution Exhibit 321.  This is at

14     tab 23, and these are the minutes of the Ilok urban community Assembly

15     from this time period in 1991.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, since you arrived here in The Hague, have you

17     had an opportunity to read the minutes of the Ilok community Assembly

18     which are in front of you on the left-hand side of your screen?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. CLANTON:  If we could please scroll down to the last page, I

21     think it's page 5.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise the signature at the bottom

23     right of this page?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Whose signature is it?

Page 5348

 1        A.   It's my signature.

 2        Q.   And do you recognise the name or the signature that's at the

 3     bottom left of the page?

 4        A.   Yes, Nevenka Brkic, note-taker of the Ilok town government.  I

 5     recognise her signature.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, since you've had an opportunity to read these

 7     minutes, can you confirm that the minutes are a true and accurate

 8     reflection of the discussions of the community leaders in Ilok at this

 9     time?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, if we can have clarification what does it

14     mean "at this time"?

15             MS. CLANTON:  If I may, Your Honour, I was referring to the dates

16     that are in the minutes which span from the 6th of October to the

17     16th of October, 1991.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Does that satisfy you, Mr. Zivanovic?

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MS. CLANTON:  And we can take that down now.

22        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I would like now to turn back to what you were

23     telling me about a moment ago, which was the events that led to the

24     organisation of a referendum on the 13th of October, 1991.  As you've

25     explained, this was a referendum for the community related to the

Page 5349

 1     ultimatum that we were just talking about.

 2             Can you tell me how many questions were put to the people in Ilok

 3     in this referendum?

 4        A.   The referendum was called to be held on the Sunday and there were

 5     two questions on ballot papers -- or actually, there were two types of

 6     ballot papers.  One contained the question whether you are in favour of

 7     handing over the weapons to the JNA and to allow the entry -- I'm sorry,

 8     it was not in the question.  The question was only relating to the

 9     handing over of the weapons to the JNA.

10             Attached to this ballot paper and displayed at polling stations

11     and every public places, an ultimatum that had been submitted to us on

12     the 11th of October by the JNA during the talks in Sid, and there was

13     another ballot paper asking the citizens to say whether they were in

14     favour of evacuation or migration of the population in the event of a

15     crisis emerging, by which we meant an attack by the army and their

16     entering Ilok.  Because they explicitly said either the weapons and the

17     entry into Ilok or any further negotiations will be suspended.

18             MS. CLANTON:  Now if the Registrar could please assist by pulling

19     up 65 ter 00404, which is Prosecution Exhibit 319.  This is at tab 7.

20        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise the document on the left as a

21     document that you provided to the investigators at the OTP?

22        A.   I and my colleagues drafted the wording of this paper.  In the

23     first one -- I don't need to read it; is that right?

24        Q.   That's correct.  Do you recognise this as a document that you

25     provided to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?

Page 5350

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. CLANTON:  If we could please have now 65 ter 06442.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise the document front of you as a

 4     document you provided to the Office of the Prosecutor yesterday?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 6        Q.   And can you explain, in the first line where it's handwritten and

 7     says "veterinary," what does this place name refer to?

 8        A.   That's a veterinary station in Ilok.  It's located on

 9     Radiceva Street, on the road from the centre of Ilok towards Sid.  There

10     were five such polling stations and the citizens could vote at these

11     places.

12        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, is it correct that the names of the polling

13     stations appear on each of the pages that you gave to us yesterday?  At

14     the top of the page.

15             MS. CLANTON:  If the Registrar could briefly scroll down --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17             MS. CLANTON:  Actually, it's okay.

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us that these documents record

19     the place where the people were voting.  What I now want to ask you is if

20     the numbers on the documents reflect the numbers of votes that were cast?

21        A.   You will see the signatures of the members of the committee which

22     confirm this.  There is also a final report, an aggregate report from all

23     polling stations.

24        Q.   Before we get --

25        A.   Therefore, the guarantee is provided by the signatures we see

Page 5351

 1     here.  I don't need to give you any further guarantees.

 2        Q.   Before we get to the aggregate document that you've mentioned, I

 3     want you to explain.  On the page that's in front of you, about

 4     two-thirds of the way down the page where it says there are 508 ballots

 5     reflecting the wishes of 1059 citizens.  Can you briefly tell the Trial

 6     Chamber why those numbers are different?

 7        A.   The number of ballot papers where the word "for" was 508 --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the figures

 9     once again.  Thank you.

10             MS. CLANTON:

11        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, excuse me.  The interpreter would like for you to

12     please repeat what you just said about the figures.

13        A.   The 508 people encircled the word "for," and at the bottom you

14     see the figure 1059, which includes their family members including

15     children who were ready to move out.  So that means that they voted

16     for -- on behalf of all members of their families because children cannot

17     vote.  Or, for example, a wife would vote on behalf of both her husband

18     and children.

19             I hope I was clear.

20             MS. CLANTON:  Yes.  At this time we would like to have this

21     document, 06442, admitted into evidence.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It should be assigned Exhibit Number P2020.

24     Thank you.

25             MS. CLANTON:  And if the Registrar could assist by please

Page 5352

 1     bringing up 06443.  This is the second document that was provided by the

 2     witness yesterday, and it's at the second tab 59 which should be tab 60.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, a moment ago you mentioned that there was a table

 4     that has the aggregate results from the various polling stations.  Is

 5     this the table that you're referring to?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And there's a Roman numeral 1 and there's a Roman numeral 2.  Can

 8     you briefly explain what Roman numeral 1 reflects and then what Roman

 9     numeral 2 reflects?

10        A.   Under Roman numeral number 1 is the results of the voting on the

11     handing over of weapons and signing the agreements.  The total against

12     were 71 per cent or 2519 people constitutes the number of turnout.

13             And the second ballot paper contains votes of people in the event

14     of a crisis emerging.  I think that the total number is, if I see

15     correctly, 2577, which means that 73 per cent were for and 11 per cent

16     were against.  Totalling 497 people.

17             MS. CLANTON:  At this time we would seek to have this document,

18     65 ter 06443, be admitted into evidence, please.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  It should be assigned Exhibit Number P2021.

21     Thank you.

22             MS. CLANTON:

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, you've just told us the results of the

24     referendum that was held on the 13th of October, 1991.  I want to ask

25     you, how did you convey the results of the referendum to the JNA?

Page 5353

 1        A.   The referendum was held on Sunday, the 13th of October.  Before

 2     that, in the meeting with General Arandjelovic on the 11th, we agreed

 3     that after the referendum he would be given all the results on the Monday

 4     at 12.00, that is to say, on the 14th of October.  Prior to that, we had

 5     a session of the town council and we informed all the citizens who were

 6     present about the results, at least those who were at the culture hall at

 7     9.00.  And then at 12.00, we were in Sid where we went to see

 8     General Arandjelovic to inform him about the results of the referendum.

 9        Q.   And was there anyone else present at the negotiations other than

10     the people who were part of your negotiating commission and

11     General Arandjelovic?

12        A.   This meeting where information was conveyed was attended by two

13     ECMM members, namely Hugh Cunningham and Petr Kypr.  The two were a bit

14     late in arriving at the meeting, but practically, they did attend the

15     entire duration of the meeting.

16        Q.   And can you describe for us what happened at this meeting?

17        A.   To put it simply, as the chairman of the committee, I informed

18     the General about the decision of the Assembly and the outcome of the

19     referendum.  He only said, "Well, that's how you decided," and he

20     suggested that we draw up an agreement on the migration of people from

21     the town.

22        Q.   And what did this agreement say?

23        A.   I think that this agreement had several clauses, a dozen or so, I

24     don't know exactly.  It says that if citizens want to leave and move

25     out -- although when any such notes were made, we lodged protests, it

Page 5354

 1     wasn't acceptable.  Quite simply, this agreement was simply dictated by

 2     the Sid Municipal Assembly to the typist secretary who was also present

 3     at the meeting.  Mr. Brletic and I were present while this agreement was

 4     being dictated to the typist, but we didn't have any room to exert any

 5     influence on the contents and conclusion of such an agreement.

 6             At the very meeting, we underlined, and we did the same in the

 7     presence of the observers, that we didn't want to leave Ilok because that

 8     meant that we would have to leave everything behind, and we were

 9     wondering about what our prospects were, how people would return and

10     everything was an unknown.  We had no place to go.  It's very difficult

11     to leave your home and go to an unknown place where you don't know

12     anyone.  And the observers also wanted to hear that.  But there was one

13     request that was permanently repeated and that is that the JNA must enter

14     the town, must take and confiscate the arms, and must search all the

15     facilities, and if they find someone with hidden weapons, they would take

16     measures.

17             In a nutshell, there was no other way out so we had to sign this

18     agreement.

19             MS. CLANTON:  I would like the assistance of the Registrar,

20     please, to pull up Prosecution Exhibit 1419, which is 65 ter 5057.  This

21     is at tab 36.

22        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise this document?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. CLANTON:  If we could go to the last page, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 5355

 1             MS. CLANTON:

 2        Q.   Whose signature is on the bottom -- I'm sorry, on the left side?

 3        A.   Mr. Ivan Mrsic.

 4        Q.   And on the right side?

 5        A.   Mr. Dragoljub Arandjelovic, the General, and commander of the

 6     area on behalf of the Yugoslav Army.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, just so that the record is clear, do you recognise

 8     this as the document that was signed on October 14th, 1991, that we've

 9     been discussing?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, after this agreement was signed, did any of the people who

12     were representing Ilok, any of the people who came as part of the

13     commission, did they have any requests to make or any statements related

14     to how they were going to be able to leave?

15        A.   Well, everybody was just saying that they didn't want to leave,

16     but that the army should show at least some degree of benevolence and

17     allow the residents to stay in their home and not move out.  However,

18     their position was very firm and there was no way of influencing it.

19             For that reason, the citizens requested at least to be provided

20     with some degree of safety while they were leaving the area, to be

21     allowed to take some of their possessions with them, and these provisions

22     were entered into the agreement.  So in short, that would be it, and

23     these requests were approved.

24        Q.   Earlier when we were discussing negotiations, you mentioned that

25     there were people who were part of this commission who were

Page 5356

 1     representatives from Bapska and that they wished to be able to gather

 2     their belongings.  Do you recall that any of the people from Bapska were

 3     making this request during this meeting?

 4        A.   Yes.  There was Mr. Ivan Sablic, he also requested permits.  The

 5     General issued passes, and some residents of Bapska went from Ilok to

 6     Bapska to gather their belongings.  But you see, once they received

 7     Bapska, they were thinking of taking a shortcut towards Sid.  Although

 8     they had the passes, they were stopped on the way.  Some of them ended up

 9     in the Begejci camp, some were detained in Sid, I think in a sports hall.

10     And some ended in the Begejci camp, including Mr. Sablic, and I think

11     that he was exchanged sometime around the 15th of December, 1991.

12             MS. CLANTON:  I'd like for the Registrar's assistance to please

13     pull up 65 ter 00438, which is at tab 14.

14        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise this list?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Do you recognise the signature?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Whose signature is it?

19        A.   Mine.

20        Q.   And I would like for you to look at this list and tell me if any

21     of the people who are on this list were part of the group that you've

22     described that sought to have permits to go back to Bapska and gather

23     their belongings.

24        A.   Miroslav Kolak, Nada Vrbanic, Ivan Mijic, that is number 11, 7,

25     and 3.  They were in a passenger car accompanied by another person.  When

Page 5357

 1     they were leaving Bapska, fire was opened at them without any warning.

 2     Mijic was wounded, but survived.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, are you saying that it is not correct where it

 4     says that Mijic was killed in Bapska on Bracka Radic Street on the

 5     14th of October, 1991?  This is number 11.

 6        A.   Yes.  Killed on the 14th of October in Bapska by the JNA on

 7     Bracka Radic Street.  We can even see the name of the street here.

 8        Q.   Is it correct that he was killed in this way on the

 9     14th of October, 1991, on the street Bracka Radic Street?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MS. CLANTON:  At this time, Your Honours, we'd like to tender

12     65 ter 00438 into evidence, please.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Should be assigned Exhibit Number P2022.  Thank

15     you.

16             MS. CLANTON:

17        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, now I want to talk to you about your departure

18     from Ilok on the 17th of October, 1991.  As you were preparing for the

19     departure on that day, can you describe the atmosphere in Ilok?

20        A.   First of all, after the signing of this agreement, we organised

21     for the population to be informed about this agreement and their options.

22             The citizens understood they didn't need much explanation of the

23     situation at Ilok because they could see it for themselves.  We just told

24     them that it was up to them to decide what to do because a date had been

25     set and it had been set with the representatives of the JNA, but the

Page 5358

 1     evacuation of the population could be done in various ways.  They could

 2     either leave towards Backa Palanka and Nestin, which is in Vojvodina,

 3     that is Serbia, or through Sot, Sid, Adasevac, Lipovac, to Croatia.  They

 4     could either stay or leave in one of these ways.  And the situation

 5     itself, I don't know what to say about it.  The citizens were informed.

 6     They could decide for themselves.  We couldn't and wouldn't guarantee

 7     that they would fare better if they stayed or left.

 8             We didn't know whether anybody would stop them during their

 9     departure.  We couldn't give any guarantees.  The guarantees were given

10     by the army according to the agreement.  That would be it in short.

11        Q.   During this time period, what kinds of noises or sounds could you

12     hear in Ilok?

13        A.   First of all, at that time there was still heavy shelling in

14     Vukovar.  There were detonations all the time, aircraft flying over Ilok.

15     And at Principovac, where the JNA units were, there were very strong

16     loudspeakers from which you could often hear folk music with offensive

17     lyrics.  Often there was shooting from machine-guns that could be heard

18     on the streets of Ilok.  That was the situation.

19        Q.   And during this time, what preparations were made in respect of

20     certain items of the cultural heritage of Ilok?

21        A.   We spoke about that to Colonel Grahovac.  We wanted to evacuate

22     the most important exhibits from the museum because the museum belonged

23     to the population of the town, the inhabitants, so if the inhabitants are

24     leaving, we also wanted to preserve those unique exhibits.  They were

25     indeed packed by the museum staff, but at the last moment, an order came

Page 5359

 1     in that nothing could be taken away.  I can add now that most exhibits

 2     have been preserved.  During the occupation, one staff member stayed

 3     throughout that period and some others also stayed, but the most valuable

 4     22 paintings disappeared.  They were cut out from their frames and taken

 5     away.

 6        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I would like to go back for one moment, please.

 7     You answered a question that I asked and told me about songs that were

 8     being played from speakers from where the JNA was at Principovac and you

 9     described the lyrics as offensive.  Can you tell me what was offensive

10     about the lyrics, what were they saying that was offensive?

11        A.   There were all kinds of lyrics.  It's better not to go into that.

12     We know what it was about.  Three more days only and then there will

13     be -- those things, I really wouldn't speak about it.  Everybody

14     understood anyway.  Various things had happened even before.  People were

15     arrested and taken away --

16        Q.   If I ask you to pause, please.  I know that you understand why

17     the lyrics were offensive, but for the benefit of everyone in the

18     courtroom, would you please tell us who they were offensive to or in what

19     way they were offensive?

20        A.   Well, if there is talk about slaughter, then it is offensive, of

21     course.  There are various kinds of songs, songs saying that -- or,

22     rather, expressing no good wishes to the population.

23        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, these songs that you've now described, in the

24     lyrics, who is being slaughtered?

25        A.   Who is being slaughtered?  Well, you know, it's a campaign of

Page 5360

 1     fear.  It didn't mean that it would really happen but it's good for

 2     instilling fear in people.  But it's certainly true that during the war

 3     all sorts of things happened.

 4        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you've now said that these lyrics had the effect

 5     of instilling fear even if the threat was not actually carried out in

 6     terms of an actual slaughter event.  What I'm interested in finding out

 7     is who felt fear, who felt threatened?

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we have clarification was it lyrics,

10     poems, poetry or songs?

11             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I understood from the translation that

12     he was referring to the lyrics in a song.  If you would like for me to

13     clarify with the witness, I can do that.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The songs that were being sung,

15     that's what I'm talking about.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's already in the answer, I think, at --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The songs that were sung.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- 49, 22 or 49, 21.  Yeah.

19             MS. CLANTON:

20        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, to go back to my question on this, you've

21     said that the lyrics of these songs and the playing of these songs had

22     the effect of instilling fear in people.  Was there a group of people who

23     the songs had the effect of instilling fear in them?

24        A.   Members of the civil protection were especially frightened but

25     also the members of the Croatian Democratic Union, the HDZ, because there

Page 5361

 1     were always threats to the HDZ, but also to the civil protection and

 2     anybody who had any sort of weapon or some such.

 3             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I'm mindful of the time.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much, Ms. Clanton.

 5             Mr. Kraljevic, this is the time for our second break for half an

 6     hour as well.  So we will come back at 12.45.  The court usher will

 7     escort you out of the courtroom.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please go ahead, Ms. Clanton.

15             MS. CLANTON:

16        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, before we took the break, we were talking about

17     the departure of the people from Ilok on October 17th, 1991.  Can you

18     tell the Chamber, briefly, what time the convoy was supposed to leave?

19        A.   On the 17th starting at 7.00 and as long as was necessary for

20     everybody to leave.  It meant that the people who wanted to leave with

21     their property on trailers and vans, or whatever vehicles, formed a

22     convoy which then set off.  Before that, according to the agreement, the

23     police had to collect the weapons and hand them over to the JNA by the

24     bridge.  That was done.  As far as I know, it must have been at 7.00.

25     The police did that.  I am not familiar with the details of the process.

Page 5362

 1        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I'm going to pause you there.  I would like to

 2     know now, where were the people who were leaving Ilok supposed to gather?

 3        A.   They gathered to form a convoy toward the bridge.  I don't know

 4     how to describe it.  It's the main street from -- it leads from Ilok to

 5     Backa Palanka and Nestin.  That street was packed.  But the side streets

 6     were also full of displaced persons.  Some people were simply in front of

 7     their houses, and that convoy slowly moved all day.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, who was in charge of processing the people in

 9     the column, the people and the vehicles in the column?

10        A.   It was said by way of informing the people and the people

11     themselves.  The column moved slowly.  There were also some monitors,

12     they were four of them at the time, and they were going up and down the

13     column.  That's what the police did also.  But it was an orderly process,

14     and about half a day -- it took half a day to get from Ilok to the

15     checkpoint.

16        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, when you got to the checkpoint, who was at the

17     checkpoint?

18        A.   There were people in JNA uniforms, nobody I knew.  There were a

19     few people in uniforms who were from Ilok, but it doesn't matter.

20             MS. CLANTON:  I'd like Mr. Laugel to please assist by playing a

21     video-clip.  It's actually two video-clips and I'd like to play them back

22     to back.  The first one is very short.  It's 65 ter 04929.4.  And this

23     comes from the video with ERN V0003949.

24             If you could just wait one moment, Thomas.

25             He is going to play from 7.05 to 7.58.

Page 5363

 1        Q.   And I want to make sure that, Mr. Kraljevic, if you need to

 2     switch your glasses to able to see the screen, please do so.

 3        A.   I can see well enough with these.  As long as there's no need to

 4     read.

 5             MS. CLANTON:  We're not going to play the sound on this.  It's

 6     only for the images, and I want to warn the Chamber that the quality of

 7     this video is not very good.  We're only going to play a short part, but

 8     it will freeze in certain parts but it will pick back up.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. CLANTON:  And now I would like for Mr. Laugel to play the

11     video that has 65 ter number 05016.2.  This would be starting at

12     31 minutes, 15 seconds to 32 minutes and 20 seconds.  I would also like

13     for this one to be played without the sound.  I should have said the

14     previous video was at tab 56.  This one is at tab 57.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MS. CLANTON:

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, I would like to ask you, do you recognise the

18     town where this footage was taken?

19        A.   Yes, there are two situations.  One is at Ilok, one of the

20     columns.  You can tell by the checkpoints at the points of exit.  There

21     are many sandbags and there were many soldiers watching the column leave

22     Ilok.  There is also a still of the column at Ilok itself.  Some of it

23     was taken at Sarengrad.  I saw the Orthodox church there.

24        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, if I could ask you to pause, please.

25             MS. CLANTON:  I think this was the part of the video that we were

Page 5364

 1     not intending to show, but if it would assist the Court, we could have

 2     the witness identify that part.  I was interested in the footage that

 3     he's already described.  It was just a technical thing when we started

 4     the clip that it started a bit early.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's your call.  Go on, Ms. Clanton.

 6             MS. CLANTON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, the footage of the people and the convoy and

 8     soldiers at the checkpoints, are you informing us with your previous

 9     answer that this is all footage that was from Ilok?

10        A.   Apart from what I said about Sarengrad, yes.  Although I cannot

11     be sure of some of the footage.  It seems that some of it was not taken

12     at Ilok, but this was.

13        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, the footage you've described of the convoy of

14     people and the checkpoint and the soldiers and the roads that you've

15     identified are in Ilok, does this footage match what you saw and

16     experienced on the 17th of October, 1991?

17        A.   Well, yes.  I was in that column very long -- it was a very long

18     column.  I was part of it.  I know what it all looked like.  It was a

19     beautiful day.  People moved about, talked in groups --

20        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, if I could pause you.  I'm sorry, we have limited

21     time.

22             MS. CLANTON:  At this time I would like to have the video-clips,

23     04929.4 and 05016.2, admitted into evidence.  There are no transcripts,

24     it's only for the images.

25             Your Honour, I had asked that the two video-clips be admitted

Page 5365

 1     into evidence.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry, I missed that, Ms. Clanton.  Admitted

 3     and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  They should be assigned Exhibit Numbers P2023 and

 5     P2024 respectively.  Thank you.

 6             MS. CLANTON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I want to ask you if all the persons who tried to

 8     leave Ilok in the convoy on the 17th of October were able to leave in the

 9     convoy?

10        A.   Yes.  They were supposed to leave because an order came on the

11     last day that, according to Mr. Grahovac, even the most hardened

12     criminals are free to leave with the column provided they wished to do

13     so.  That was apparently a decision reached at a higher level, but I was

14     not interested in that.  But I have to say that 17 people were singled

15     out and taken away from the convoy.  The check-ups involved the checking

16     of identification cards and those who were doing the checking were

17     comparing the data with some lists, and they singled out the 17 people I

18     mentioned.  I myself did not see it.  I may have been in the front of the

19     column or in the back, but we received information that 17 people were

20     taken out of the column.  Most of them, except for two or three who were

21     wounded and taken to hospital, ended up in the Begejci camp.

22        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you've explained that you did not see this.  It

23     was not in the part of the column where you were at that time, but if you

24     know, can you tell us who pulled these people, these 17 people aside?

25        A.   Well, the checkpoints were manned by the representatives of the

Page 5366

 1     army and that is what they did.  Whether there were any paramilitary

 2     troops with them, I cannot tell.  Some people had been seen around, but

 3     it's not relevant.

 4             MS. CLANTON:  If I could ask the Registrar to assist by pulling

 5     up 02215, 65 ter 02215.  This is a list of persons separated from the

 6     convoy.  It's at tab 24.

 7        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise this list?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Who prepared this list?

10        A.   On the basis of various pieces of information while I was working

11     at the government in Zagreb, people came and provided information with

12     regards to those who were separated, but I received information from

13     other sources and other individuals as well, but I cannot tell you

14     exactly.

15             Anyway, these 17 people were singled out on that occasion and

16     taken out of the convoy.

17        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, a moment ago you told us that you believed that,

18     other than two or three persons who had been wounded, that many of these

19     people on the list were taken to the Begejci camp.  Can you confirm that

20     this is the list with those people you're referring to?

21        A.   Are you referring to the ones that were taken to the hospital

22     because they were wounded?

23        Q.   I'm asking you to confirm that a moment ago when you said that

24     people who were taken out of the convoy were taken to Begejci, that this

25     list contains the names of some of those people?

Page 5367

 1        A.   With the exception of two, all of them.

 2             MS. CLANTON:  At this time, Your Honours, I would like to have

 3     65 ter 02215 admitted into evidence, please.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  It should be assigned Exhibit Number P2025.

 6     Thank you.

 7             MS. CLANTON:

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Kraljevic, I want to move on to a new topic and that is

 9     what you learned about the situation in Ilok after the time that you had

10     left Ilok.

11             Now, while you were mayor of Ilok in exile in Zagreb, can you

12     tell us how you collected information about the situation in Ilok, in

13     particular related to the people who were still there?

14        A.   I can tell you that in the town of Ilok itself, there remained

15     probably approximately 1300 inhabitants that we might say were

16     representative of the Croatian community.  The majority of Slovaks, if

17     they left at all, went towards Backa Palanka, which is quite

18     understandable because they had large families in Vojvodina.  As a rule,

19     they came back very soon thereafter.

20        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, sorry, I need to ask you to pause, please.  The

21     question that I asked you relates to when you were serving as mayor.  How

22     did you get information about what was happening to the people who had

23     stayed behind in Ilok?

24        A.   Yes, I'm sorry.  All I wanted to say was that there were people

25     who stayed behind in Ilok who were later expelled.  And those who were

Page 5368

 1     not expelled managed to go via Vojvodina to Hungary, and then across the

 2     border between Hungary and Croatia, they would reach Zagreb, and it is

 3     from them that we received information.  Some people used telephones

 4     provided by the International Community.  There were various ways of

 5     communication, but the information was mostly provided by the people who

 6     managed to cross the border, especially after these expulsions.

 7        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you've just mentioned expulsions taking place in

 8     Ilok after the time that you left.  Do you know who caused people to be

 9     expelled from Ilok?

10        A.   According to the statements given by the individuals coming from

11     the area, the situation was somewhat peaceful while Colonel Grahovac was

12     in Ilok.  He was in charge of maintaining law and order in the town

13     itself and it seems that that was the situation then.  However, he left

14     the area in January, late January, he left his position, and practically

15     the command of the town was taken over by the police and the local

16     self-government, and this is particularly a time that was very difficult.

17     But also in the period immediately after our departure, and this was

18     reflected in people being brought into the police premises, being

19     interrogated, and a huge number of people were expelled.

20        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us about two time periods here.

21     You've said immediately after -- or in the months after the column left

22     that people were taken into police stations and mistreated.  And then, if

23     I understand correctly, you've told us that after Colonel Grahovac left

24     the area, you said it was a very difficult situation.  Can you elaborate

25     a bit more about what you know about it being a very difficult situation?

Page 5369

 1        A.   The houses that were vacated were being plundered.  People used

 2     to come from other areas as well, various individuals who were looting

 3     the town.  Soon thereafter, people started moving into the houses.  There

 4     were refugees from western Croatia in Backa Palanka and they started

 5     moving into those houses in an organised manner.  The keys to the houses,

 6     if they were left at all, were left with neighbours.  If it was

 7     impossible to open the door, then they were forced opened.  But people

 8     were moving out and, as far as I can tell, it was done in a rather

 9     organised way.

10             Some people may not have been very happy and they started looking

11     for better houses, especially if there were elderly people living alone

12     in those houses, and they were subjected to maltreatment in order to

13     drive them out of their houses and to move somebody else into them.

14        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, you've told us about people being mistreated by

15     the police and then also as part of this -- what you've said was an

16     organised system to remove people from their homes.  I want to ask you,

17     who did you hear was operating in Ilok at this time and involved in the

18     commission of these crimes?

19        A.   Are you referring to the authorities or what?  I don't know.

20        Q.   I'm asking you who you believe -- who you heard was responsible

21     for the crimes that were committed against civilians who remained in

22     Ilok?

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry --

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- may we have the reference where the witness

Page 5370

 1     said that people being mistreated by the police.

 2             MS. CLANTON:  If you just give me one moment, Your Honour.

 3             Your Honour, on page 31 of the -- oh, I'm sorry.  It just moved.

 4     31 of the temporary transcript at lines 11 to 13.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it states that people being brought into

 6     the police premises, not being mistreated.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  What I see is that it says they were brought into

 8     the police premises and being interrogated and a huge number of people

 9     were expelled.

10             Would it assist for me to ask the question -- a different

11     question to the witness?

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  As long as you don't give the qualification of

13     mistreatment if the -- if the witness doesn't.  So you could ask him.

14             MS. CLANTON:

15        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, a moment ago, you said to us and I'm going to read

16     this from the transcript because it's important what is recorded, you

17     said that:

18             "... people were brought into police premises, were being

19     interrogated, and a huge number of people were expelled."

20             Could you describe for us what you heard about the way that they

21     were interrogated and who was interrogating them?

22        A.   You know, it's difficult for me to say something explicitly in

23     such a way.  The people who were brought in know best what happened to

24     them.  There are quite a few statements provided by such individuals.  I

25     myself didn't collect them, but if necessary, we can review them because

Page 5371

 1     there is a multitude of persons who provided statements to that effect.

 2             I am reluctant to make any comments in their name.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, based on what you heard from these people, can you

 4     answer the question that I asked you, which was:  Who was interrogating

 5     them and what you heard about the interrogations?

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It was asked and answered.

 7             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, I don't -- I'm sorry.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I don't agree, Mr. Zivanovic.  It was asked but

 9     it wasn't answered.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  In the quoted part of the transcript it was said

11     that they were interrogated in police premises.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But that's no answer to the question.  Please

13     proceed, Ms. Clanton.

14             MS. CLANTON:

15        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I said a moment ago, I need for you to focus on my

16     question, which is:  Based on what you heard, who interrogated people in

17     the police premises and what did you hear about the interrogations

18     themselves?

19        A.   It is true that people were questioned on the police premises.

20     They were held captive in the cellar and they were maltreated.  A lot of

21     people can confirm that, if necessary.  But at this point in time, I find

22     it difficult to collect as many people who can testify to that, but it is

23     beyond doubt that people were maltreated, severely maltreated.

24        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, if you know, by whom were they severely maltreated

25     when they were detained or held captive in the cellar of the police

Page 5372

 1     premises?

 2        A.   Well, the police.  Who else?  I don't know.  If anyone else was

 3     granted access to the police, then it's the police's mistake.

 4        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, I'd like to go back to the question now that I was

 5     asking you before and I think I should ask you again.

 6             I want to know, who did you hear, other than the police, who did

 7     you hear was operating near Ilok and was responsible for the commission

 8     of crimes after the time that you left?

 9        A.   There were various individuals either from Ilok or from elsewhere

10     who would come, break into houses during the night, plunder, beat people,

11     expel them, et cetera.  There were many instances of that kind and this

12     was particularly apparent from the statements, and these incidents were

13     mostly happening in Bapska and Sarengrad because there was a lower level

14     of presence of monitors and that is why there was a higher incidence of

15     such cases.

16        Q.   And, Mr. Kraljevic, you've said that there were various

17     individuals who were engaged in this behaviour.  When you were a mayor in

18     exile, did you ever hear that there were any groups that were described

19     as having engaged in this behaviour, members of any group?

20        A.   Well, there were various groups in the area of Ilok dressed in

21     military uniforms.  There were many of them.  There were references made

22     to Red Berets, Seselj's men.  These people were wearing various uniforms.

23     They would sometimes identify themselves by a variety of names.  They

24     would burst into people's houses pretending to be policemen and identify

25     themselves as policemen although they were not.

Page 5373

 1             MS. CLANTON:  I'd like the assistance of the Registrar, please,

 2     to pull up 65 ter 01407.  This is at tab 17.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, I'm told that you are running out of

 4     time.  How long would you --

 5             MS. CLANTON:  This is my last series of questions, I think not

 6     more than five or ten minutes, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 8             MS. CLANTON:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, do you recognise this as a document that you

10     provided to the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And if you could assist, can you tell us, as it's marked as

13     illegible in the English, what the title of this document is on the page

14     that's in front of you?

15        A.   It says the list of persons expelled between the 1st of January,

16     1973, but I cannot see the exact date.  Anyway, it's November of the same

17     year.  And we can see below the list of the expellees, their names, their

18     date of birth --

19        Q.   I need to ask you to pause for a moment, please.

20        A.   And the place of birth.

21        Q.   A moment ago, we asked -- I asked you what the title of the list

22     was and you said that these were people that were expelled in 1973; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   I'm sorry, 1993.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And you've clarified that the date that is difficult

Page 5374

 1     to read is the 20th of -- did you say November, 1993?

 2        A.   Now I can see, it's the 20th.  I can see better now.

 3        Q.   Thank you for assisting with that.

 4             MS. CLANTON:  If the Registrar could assist by going to the last

 5     page, please.  Sorry, it's page 5, I believe.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The year is the same, only it's a

 7     continuation covering the period between the 20th of November and

 8     31st of December, 1993.

 9             MS. CLANTON:

10        Q.   Thank you for providing the dates.  I would like to ask you now,

11     go back to what you were saying a moment ago about this list.  I want to

12     confirm that what you've told us is that this is a list of people -- just

13     one moment, please.  You said these were people who lived in Ilok and it

14     has their names and their dates of birth.  What other information is

15     provided here?

16        A.   And the dates of expulsion.  I don't see any other details.  The

17     name of the street and when the person was expelled.

18        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, on this list, for example, the first line on the

19     page that's currently displayed which says Marijan Solakovic, this person

20     is listed next to the town Ilok.  I'd like for you to tell us --

21        A.   Bapska.

22        Q.   I'm sorry, Bapska, you're right.  I would like for you to tell us

23     whether this list includes the surrounding communities of Ilok.

24        A.   This list contains the names only of the people from the area

25     where I was mayor, that is to say, Ilok, Sarengrad, Bapska, and Mohovo.


Page 5375

 1     So these lists pertain only to these places, Sarengrad, Bapska, Mohovo.

 2     There was approximately 10.000 inhabitants in that area.

 3        Q.   And Mr. Kraljevic, just to clarify your last answer, you said

 4     that the list contains the names of people who were expelled from the

 5     area that is part of Ilok, and that was Sarengrad, Bapska, and Mohovo.

 6     Does the list also include people who were expelled from the town of Ilok

 7     itself?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honours, I would like to have this document

10     admitted, please, 65 ter 00417, into evidence.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  It shall be assigned Exhibit Number P0226.  Thank

13     you.

14             MS. CLANTON:  Your Honour, at this time I have no further

15     questions.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Cross-examination.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kraljevic.  My name is

20     Zoran Zivanovic.  I'm Defence counsel of Goran Hadzic.

21             Let me ask you first, on page 31, you said that the situation was

22     calm for as long as Grahovac was there, who was in charge in maintaining

23     law and order in Ilok, and that this situation prevailed until January.

24     Can you tell us the year?

25        A.   1992.  A day or two later, I don't know.

Page 5376

 1        Q.   According to your information, because I know you were not there

 2     on the spot, was this area still under the JNA control after that period?

 3        A.   I said that it was relatively peaceful, but even before the

 4     killing of the people in Ilok, it was relatively peaceful.

 5             I'm sorry for putting it like this.  I'm sorry -- I believe that

 6     the army had no influence on the events any longer.

 7        Q.   I have different information.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see a document, a

 9     document of an international organisation that was on mission in

10     Yugoslavia, 1D404.  They made a survey of human rights.

11             I think the report has not been translated.  It's a very long

12     report and not all of it is significant, but I will read out an excerpt

13     that refers to Ilok.  It's on page 5.

14             It's the last paragraph.  I will not read out all of it because

15     it is mostly about known facts discussed here.  But the last paragraph

16     reads:

17             "[In English] The mission has evidence that Ilok is not under

18     civilian administration but under direct rule of JNA and paramilitary

19     forces."

20        Q.   [Interpretation] That's why I'm asking if you are certain that

21     the relevant time is January 1992 because if we look at this report, we

22     will see on the cover page that it was made in May 1992.  Are you sure

23     that the JNA no longer controlled the area from January 1992?

24        A.   As far as I know, Colonel Grahovac was no longer there then.  If

25     there were units of the JNA, well, I think there were such units in all

Page 5377

 1     of the occupied area.  Now, how much influence the ones or the others

 2     had, I don't know, but most people say that the paramilitaries had more

 3     influence.  But that doesn't exclude that the JNA played a part as well.

 4        Q.   Let me ask you something else in connection with this.  Do you

 5     know that at that time in the area there were town commands?

 6        A.   I personally was not involved, but I know what was generally

 7     known and I will gladly answer any question I can answer.

 8        Q.   I may not have been clear enough.  Do you know that after your

 9     departure from the area, did you have information to that effect that the

10     JNA established town commands in the places that had been taken by its

11     units?

12        A.   Yes, there was information that there were always some commands

13     in place, but who took part in that command, I don't know, nor do I know

14     the influence or how much of a say any given group had.

15        Q.   Now I would like us to see the following.  You spoke about the

16     negotiations process with Colonel Grahovac, later with Arandjelovic and

17     co-workers.  Here's what I would like to know:  During those

18     negotiations, did you have contact with the government in Zagreb?  Did

19     you get instructions from them concerning the demands of the JNA?

20        A.   I personally didn't have such contact but some members did.  For

21     example, Ivan Uros, who left Ilok, he was a member of parliament.  I

22     think that he left on the 30th of September and went to Zagreb.  As far

23     as I know, there were contacts but I'm not sure how that went, by phone

24     or in another way.

25        Q.   When you mentioned him, you said that on the 30th of September,

Page 5378

 1     he went to Zagreb?

 2        A.   Yes.  Actually he didn't go to Zagreb.  He went to Belgrade and

 3     Skopje and then made it to Zagreb.

 4        Q.   But I'm interested to hear if anybody of you who stayed at Ilok

 5     during those negotiations with the JNA, did any of these persons have

 6     contact with the government in Zagreb to inform them of the demands of

 7     the JNA and ask for instructions what should be done?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  But two or three representatives of the

 9     Croatian government came to Ilok after four days and spoke to JNA

10     representatives.  That is once the convoy had left.  They arrived at Ilok

11     and had talks in the castle.  The talks were about the displaced persons

12     returning to their towns and villages.  That's why they had arrived.  You

13     may not have that information, but I do.

14        Q.   Do you know if before your departure they had been in contact

15     with the JNA to suggest them that, in other words, suggest to the army

16     not to remove you from there?

17        A.   Well, you know, I'm saying that the representatives who were at

18     the civil protection staff did contact Zagreb, but what they spoke about,

19     I cannot say.  But I can say briefly that the advice was:  You know what

20     the situation is and you decide whether you want to leave Ilok or not.

21     We were mature enough to make our own decisions in the Ilok case.

22        Q.   Let us see a document that the OTP showed you.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's P2020.

24        Q.   These are the minutes taken at a polling station or from -- does

25     it refer to all of Ilok?

Page 5379

 1        A.   This was one of the polling stations in Ilok, one of five.

 2        Q.   Was it the most important polling station?

 3        A.   No, it was an average polling station or even a smaller one.

 4        Q.   Could you please explain the last paragraph that says that a

 5     total of 508 ballots were cast and that this represents the votes of over

 6     a thousand citizens.  I understood that those who voted did not only vote

 7     for themselves but also for others.

 8        A.   Yes, for their spouses and children.  If you vote for yourself

 9     and your spouse, then you get over a thousand votes, you know.  It wasn't

10     so easy to move about and people had other things to do.  The situation

11     was extremely tense and people didn't really care so much about these --

12     about this vote.

13        Q.   You said that on the 30th [as interpreted] of October the

14     referendum was held and you mentioned a meeting at Sid on the 14th of

15     October, and in that context, I believe you mentioned two European

16     monitors?

17        A.   They were monitors.

18        Q.   Yes, exactly.  The names are Kypr and Cunningham; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can you tell me which meeting they attended, the one after the

21     referendum on the 14th of October?

22        A.   Yes.  This specifically was after the referendum when the

23     agreement about the departure was signed.

24        Q.   Did they have an opportunity to see the text of the agreement?

25        A.   Yes.  There was an interpreter.  We brought her along.  She was a

Page 5380

 1     teacher of English and translated the whole text and interpreted

 2     everything that was said at the meeting.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I take it your purpose was not to

 4     confuse the witness on the dates, but I see that your question was:  "You

 5     said that the 30th of October the referendum was held ..."

 6             You see the difficulty?  And then you ask whether it was after

 7     the referendum on the 14th of October.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's an error in transcript.  I spoke about

 9     13th of October.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thank you very much.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] It was wrongly recorded in the transcript that

13     the date in question was the 30th of October and it has now been

14     corrected to the 13th.

15        A.   Yes, I understood that.

16        Q.   On the occasion of that meeting, did the European monitors

17     comment what was happening, that is, on the other hand, the proposals of

18     the JNA, on the other hand, what you were requesting?

19        A.   Yes.  They asked questions but did not comment.  They only wanted

20     to hear the opinions of the two sides.  But not often, it was only twice

21     or three times.

22        Q.   Do you remember what was being discussed?

23        A.   They wanted to know why people were leaving the town because it

24     seemed strange to them that anybody was willing to leave their homes.

25        Q.   Whom did they ask?  You?  I mean, I don't mean you personally?

Page 5381

 1        A.   Yes, they asked us.  But they were also interested in hearing

 2     from the army why people had to leave the town.

 3        Q.   And what kind of answer did they get?

 4        A.   From me or ...

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The speakers are overlapping.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I explained why we were

 7     leaving our homes, and the General said that they had to enter to

 8     preserve law and order.  It was very -- it was a very brief explanation.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] They didn't comment that in any way?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   You said that a meeting was held on the 11th of October, 1991,

13     also with the JNA?

14        A.   With General Arandjelovic, at Sid.

15        Q.   On that occasion, there was discussion about the JNA action at

16     Lovas that had happened on the previous day, the 10th?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And that meeting was attended by Rendulic, Adam Rendulic?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   He's from Lovas?

21        A.   Yes, was the manager of the co-op.

22        Q.   Do you know when he came to Ilok?

23        A.   I don't know when exactly but there were -- people were coming

24     from Lovas to Ilok on a number of occasions.  Whether he went to and fro,

25     I don't know.

Page 5382

 1        Q.   Was he in Lovas when the JNA attacked?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I cannot answer that.

 3        Q.   I'll immediately explain why I'm asking because I see that at

 4     that meeting, it was mentioned that 22 people were killed in Lovas?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   That's why I'm interested to hear how it happened that you knew

 7     on the following day how many people had been killed?

 8        A.   Some of the population of Lovas fled in our direction.  I didn't

 9     say that they knew the exact number but that there had -- but they said

10     that they -- there had been many victims, about 20 or so.  And then a

11     grave was also dug up.  And Hugh Cunningham, the observer, also went to

12     Lovas and spoke to Mr. Devetak, who confirmed that.  He also got a list,

13     and I saw the list of people.

14        Q.   I just wanted to hear whether as early as the 11th of October you

15     had the exact number of casualties or if you just knew that there had

16     been casualties but didn't know the exact number.

17        A.   There was talk about 20-odd casualties.

18        Q.   You also said that General Arandjelovic told you on that occasion

19     that many people were killed as an act of revenge for a soldier that had

20     been killed, but you said that no soldiers were killed in Lovas?

21        A.   Yes.  It was never published, any kind of information was never

22     published that a soldier had been killed.  I just think that was a kind

23     of excuse or pretext to justify the crime of this magnitude.

24        Q.   In other words, since you couldn't read or hear about that

25     anywhere else, you don't think that that actually happened, that that was

Page 5383

 1     just an excuse?

 2        A.   It was never mentioned again.  Nobody ever mentioned his name or

 3     the fact that a soldier was killed.

 4        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you document P316.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Interpretation] If we can have it again, please.

 6     I believe that is a letter sent to Bapska.

 7        Q.   I can see here that he says that Bapska was a peaceful place and

 8     the population was requested to submit their weapons.  Were you aware of

 9     the existence of any weapons in Bapska?

10        A.   Yes, there were rifles but in the possession of the civilian

11     protection.

12        Q.   When you say "civilian protection," what are you referring to?

13        A.   I'm referring to the residents of Bapska.

14        Q.   In other words, those were not members of the Croatian Guards

15     Corps or the MUP?

16        A.   Well, there were their representatives as well, of course.

17        Q.   And they decided not to accept this but chose to withdraw to

18     Ilok?

19        A.   Well, the population was fleeing and leaving, but they refused to

20     accept this ultimatum.

21        Q.   They didn't want to surrender the weapons; is that what you're

22     saying?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Just one clarification.  You said that before all these conflicts

25     started, certain Serbs used to spend the night in Backa Palanka.

Page 5384

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   How do you know that?  How do you know that they only went there

 3     to spend the night?

 4        A.   Well, that was common knowledge.  I don't know.  There were

 5     articles in newspapers about that.  But these people did indeed go over

 6     there to spend the night in order to create some kind of psychological

 7     pressure.  Everybody used to say that this was organised from the outside

 8     in order to portray the situation of uncertainty for people in Ilok.  I

 9     believe that that was the only reason.  I don't think that they were

10     really afraid but, rather, they wanted to create an atmosphere of fear.

11        Q.   But I don't understand how can you create an atmosphere of fear

12     if these people come back and spend the whole day in Ilok.  If something

13     bad was to happen to them, it could happen during the day as well?

14        A.   Well, I don't know.  Everybody was playing games.  Look, for

15     example, the daily "Politika" wrote at the time that 11 people were

16     killed in Ilok and their bodies were displayed in the square for people

17     to see.  This was a totally unprovoked fabrication.  There was no

18     conflict.

19        Q.   One more thing.  You said that about five Ilok policemen refused

20     to put on the new Croatian coat of arms.  Are you referring to the

21     checkered coat of arms?

22        A.   Well, you can call it that although we prefer to call it the

23     Croatian coat of arms.

24        Q.   Do you know why they refused to wear it?

25        A.   They know that themselves, but there's also some kind of


Page 5385

 1     atmosphere being created there that this is a coat of arms associated

 2     with the Ustasha, not with Croats.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kraljevic, thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

 4        A.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Ms. Clanton, do you have anything in redirect?

 6             MS. CLANTON:  No, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You don't?

 8             MS. CLANTON:  No.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Kraljevic, this is the end of your testimony.

10     You are released as a witness.  We thank you very much for coming to

11     The Hague to assist us, and we wish you a safe journey home.

12             The Court Usher will escort you out of court.  Thank you very

13     much.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours.  It

15     was a pleasure to testify here.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Olmsted.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have the unfortunate

19     job of informing you that we do not have another witness this week.  This

20     is the result of a number of things.  First and foremost, the waiver

21     issue with regard to the witness -- I don't know if he has --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  He has.  He has.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  -- protective measures so I don't want to mention

24     his -- he was again scheduled this week.  He couldn't come and therefore

25     we had to scramble to find additional witnesses, and this is the best we

Page 5386

 1     could do at this stage.  A number of witnesses that we've already

 2     scheduled or already arranged them four or five times, and we just could

 3     not get someone here to fill that potential gap.

 4             Secondly, the cross-examinations were much shorter than

 5     anticipated.  Again, we've raised this before.  It would be helpful if

 6     the Defence could give us at least a week or two notice of how long they

 7     intend to cross at least at the point of -- obviously they don't know

 8     what we're going to ask on direct examination, but just based upon what

 9     they believe they can, that would help us a little bit in anticipating

10     that there would be these kind of gaps.  But we -- I think next week we

11     have a full schedule, so hopefully it's going to work out fine.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  In the meantime, I hope that instead of

13     court time, you will enjoy the sunshine.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, we will.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that's all, court adjourned.

16                           ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of

18                           June, 2013