Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6627

 1                           Wednesday, 3 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 6     courtroom, and are we already linked with the videolink?  Yes, we are.

 7     And in -- it is Belgrade, isn't it?  So good morning to you in Belgrade

 8     as well.

 9             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

11             This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

16             Douglas Stringer; Case Manager, Thomas Laugel; legal intern,

17     Victoria More, for the Prosecution.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

21     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             I would like the record to reflect that the late start is due to

24     technical problems.  And then we can start with the new witness.

25             Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Can you hear me in a --

Page 6628

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So I take it you can hear me in a language you

 3     understand?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.  I'm listening.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Could you tell us your name and your

 6     date of birth, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I stand up?

 8             My name is Milosav Djordjevic, and my father's name was Cvetko.

 9     I was born on the 27th August, 1935, in Novi Sad.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You are about to make the solemn declaration by

13     which witnesses commit themselves to tell the truth.  I have to point out

14     to you that by doing so, you commit yourself to -- you expose yourself -

15     sorry - to the penalties of perjury should you give false or untruthful

16     information to this Tribunal.

17             May I now ask you to read the solemn declaration.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  MILOSAV DJORDJEVIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           [Witness testified via videolink]

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, your witness.


Page 6629

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Stringer:

 3        Q.   Good morning, General Djordjevic.  Can I first ask if --

 4        A.   Good morning, sir.

 5        Q.   -- you can -- can you see me, hear me, and understand me?

 6        A.   Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.  I can see you, I can hear you, and

 7     I can understand you.

 8        Q.   Very good.  Let me first ask that the Registrar show you the

 9     document 65 ter 6393, which is found at tab 19.

10             And I might suggest that it would be more efficient to take this

11     one out of the binder and just place it in front of the witness.  He

12     might be referring to it throughout his testimony.

13             General, now do you have the document in front of you?

14        A.   Yes, I do have it.

15        Q.   And do you recognise that document?

16        A.   I do.  And I also recognise my signature and your initials.

17        Q.   Okay.  Is this a witness statement that you provided to members

18     of the Office of the Prosecutor, including myself, in March of this year?

19        A.   Yes.  This is the statement that I provided on the 19th of March,

20     2013, as the statement that I provided here.

21        Q.   And, General, before you signed the statement, were you given an

22     opportunity to read the statement in your own language?

23        A.   Yes, I had an opportunity to read the statement in my own

24     language.

25        Q.   And then after you signed the statement in the -- in the time

Page 6630

 1     that you followed, did you have an opportunity to again review the

 2     statement before your testimony today?

 3        A.   Yesterday, on the 2nd of July, I read the statement once again.

 4        Q.   And did you have an opportunity to go over the statement again

 5     with me by telephone on Monday of this week, the 1st of July?

 6        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor --

 7        Q.   And during our --

 8        A.   -- I remember that well.

 9        Q.   -- discussion -- and when we spoke on Monday, then, did you

10     identify some parts of the statement that you would like to make some

11     modifications or -- or clarifications too?

12        A.   Yes, I had that occasion.  And Mr. Stringer, with the help of an

13     interpreter, noted all those things that I mentioned with regard to those

14     pages.  I have my own example that you sent to me earlier.  I have it on

15     me today, and with your permission I would like to put it on the desk in

16     front of me.

17        Q.   That's fine.  You can refer to that if you need to, but, General,

18     let me first ask you a couple of questions.  I'll take you to what I

19     think are the relevant parts of the statement.

20             Could I ask you to first turn to paragraph 2.

21        A.   Yes.  Links between the Federal Secretariat of National Defence,

22     the JNA General Staff, and the Territorial Defence of the Serbian

23     Autonomous Provinces from the second half of October to the second half

24     of December 1991 and possible causes so on and so forth.

25        Q.   Now about halfway through paragraph 2 there's a reference to the

Page 6631

 1     constitution of the SFRY from -- excuse me, 1974.  And it was my

 2     understanding, General, that you wanted to add that the reference there

 3     to the constitution, the specific reference you want to make, is to

 4     Article 240 of the constitution; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   Now, if I can direct you to paragraph 4, which I believe was the

 7     next citation that you wanted to add.  Do you have paragraph 4?

 8        A.   Yes, I have it.  The Presidency of the SFRY was the

 9     Supreme Commander of the armed forces of the SFRY, and so on and so

10     forth.

11        Q.   Okay.  And if I noted it correctly, General, then, you wished to

12     add that the reference to the SFRY constitution here is to Article 316,

13     and that the reference to the Law on All People's Defence is to Article

14     108 of that law; is that correct?

15        A.   That is correct.

16        Q.   Okay.  And then in the following paragraph, paragraph 5, did you

17     also wish to note that this should refer or mention Article 80 of the

18     Law on All People's Defence in support of this passage?

19        A.   This is the Law on All People's Defence of Yugoslavia dating back

20     to 1982, which was then in effect.

21        Q.   And just for the record, General Djordjevic, can you tell us what

22     the specific article of that law that you wanted to supply the citation

23     for here, in paragraph 5?

24        A.   May I be allowed to refer to the margins of the previous document

25     that I had?  Because I made some notes in that document.

Page 6632

 1        Q.   That's fine.

 2        A.   I can't find it, but I believe that things are just the way you

 3     put them, Mr. Stringer.

 4        Q.   Okay.  General, the reference that I had mentioned was to

 5     Article 80 of the Law on All People's Defence.  And if we have an

 6     opportunity, we can try to come back to that.  Does that sound about

 7     right, Article 80.

 8        A.   In that article, as far as I can remember, there's a reference to

 9     the competencies of the Supreme Command, the functioning of the staff of

10     the Supreme Command, i.e., the Presidency, the Ministry of Defence, and

11     the General Staff.  The ministry and the General Staff constituted the

12     staff of the Supreme Command, and the Presidency itself is the Supreme

13     Command.  I believe that this is what this article is about.

14        Q.   Very well.  Now, General, the following paragraph, paragraph 6, I

15     had noted that you wished to add a reference here to Article 97 of the

16     Law on All People's Defence ...

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I -- I suppose Belgrade doesn't hear us anymore.

18                           [Technical difficulty]

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm told the weather is interfering.  Shall we

21     wait for the sunshine?

22             MR. STRINGER:  If it's ... may I say something or do I need to

23     wait until Belgrade is back on?  It's actually better if I say it outside

24     the presence of the witness.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please go ahead.

Page 6633

 1             MR. STRINGER:  With the conditions, I would respectfully propose,

 2     with the Court's permission and perhaps the agreement of my learned

 3     friend, to continue leading a little bit just to speed along these

 4     additions.  I can ask the witness to refer to the notes he made in the

 5     margin, but it might slow us down a little bit, which seems a bit risky

 6     today, but I did want you to know that I'm aware --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated].  Belgrade is back,

 8     Mr. Stringer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Heard you --

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   General, yes.  Are you able to see and hear me again?

12        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I can hear you and I can see you.

13             Can I just ask you something.  In paragraph 6, it's not

14     Article 80 of the law but Article 97 of the law where there is a

15     reference to the Territorial Defence as being directly subordinated to

16     the republic.  So it is Article 97 of the Law on National Defence.

17        Q.   Yes, sir, that's the note I had.  And just to clarify now, I

18     believe that it was for paragraph 5 that the reference was to Article 80

19     of the Law on All People's Defence.  Is that also correct, Article 80,

20     for paragraph 5?

21        A.   Yes, you're absolutely correct.  It is Article 80.

22        Q.   And then it's Article 97 for paragraph 6.

23        A.   97.

24        Q.   Okay.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 6634

 1        Q.   Now, in the following paragraph, paragraph 7, you wanted to

 2     change the word that currently appears, the word "occupied," and to

 3     replace it with some other words instead.  Could I ask you just to

 4     explain that to the Judges, please.

 5        A.   Your Honours, pursuant to the constitution of Yugoslavia or the

 6     SFRY, dating back to 1974, and based on the Law on All People's Defence

 7     dating back to 1982, the term "occupation" does not exist to represent a

 8     certain situation during war time.  That term is not used.  Rather, the

 9     term "temporarily taken territory" is used rather than occupation, so I

10     would use that.  I would use the word "taken" and that means that the

11     territory is temporarily taken or in the possession of an enemy side or

12     the opposition side.

13             If I may add to that, the explanation was this.  If we were to

14     adopt the word "occupation" that would also mean that the enemy side also

15     holds power of that territory and that the result would be a capitulation

16     of that territory.  That's why the word "occupation" has been replaced by

17     the temporarily taken territory.

18        Q.   Thank you, General, for that modification.

19             Now, if I understand the next modification, you wanted to add a

20     reference in paragraph 9.  So if could you turn to paragraph 9.  And this

21     paragraph refers to political factors which triggered the armed

22     conflicts.

23             And, General, if I noted correctly you wanted to add a reference

24     here to the Serb referendum that was held in Croatia on the 2nd of

25     August, 1990, regarding autonomy or unification of municipalities in

Page 6635

 1     Croatia with a majority Serb population.  And then also the second

 2     referendum of Serbs in Croatia on establishing the SAOs after their

 3     status was changed in the constitution.

 4             Is that a correct description of the additions that you wanted to

 5     make in paragraph 9?

 6        A.   Mr. Stringer, Mr. Prosecutor, I wanted to add that there were two

 7     referendums for the Serbs in those areas.

 8             In the first case, the intention was to create an autonomy within

 9     the framework of the Republic of Croatia; a Serb autonomy in Croatia.

10     When the new constitution was adopted in Croatia, and when it was decided

11     that Croatia would secede from Yugoslavia, then the Serbs made a decision

12     at a referendum to establish their own assembly and that they should also

13     secede from Croatia but to still be -- be an integral part of Yugoslavia.

14             That would be my shortest possible explanation with regard to

15     your question, Mr. Stringer.

16        Q.   Thank you, General.  Now the next modification was in

17     paragraph 10 of your statement.  And now this is where you listed some of

18     the possible causes of the crisis and the outcome.  And if I noted it

19     correctly, here you wanted to add a reference to statements of leading

20     politicians, such as President Tudjman who had indicated that the NDH was

21     not a nationalist Fascist state but reflected the will of the people, and

22     also President Milosevic who stated that one could not rule out the

23     possibility that differences about Yugoslavia might be resolved by

24     military means.

25             Have I noted that correctly; and would you care to comment on

Page 6636

 1     that if I have not?

 2        A.   If I may, Mr. Stringer, Dr. Tudjman made that statement at the

 3     Assembly of the so-called Croatian Democratic Union which was a newly

 4     established party; whereas, Mr. Milosevic made that statement of his at

 5     Gazi Mestan [phoen] where a monument is for the fallen Serbs during the

 6     conflict with the Ottoman empire in 1389, where there was a huge rally

 7     where almost a million people gathered and the presidency of the SFRY was

 8     present.  He stated then we are in the midst of battles again.  He meant

 9     political struggle where Yugoslavia was being put into question and the

10     system in power until then.

11             We are again in political fights.  They are not armed fights, but

12     I don't rule that out either.  This was an opportunity for other people

13     to interpret that as -- as an announcement of future armed conflict.

14             This is what I had to say, Mr. Stringer.

15        Q.   Thank you, General.  And now the next modification, I believe,

16     was in paragraph 12, and you wanted to add a reference to three locations

17     that were -- you thought were relevant to this.  Can you describe those

18     or mention those to the Judges, please.

19        A.   Yes.  In the early spring - I believe it was March 1991 - the

20     first clashes happened in Croatia between the self-organised Serbs and

21     the special forces of the Croatian MUP.  It was by the Plitvice lakes.

22     They are well-known for their beauty.

23             The next clash was at Borovo Selo in the month of May when there

24     was shooting too, when Croatian police, as far as I was able to learn in

25     the meantime but back then I didn't know, they killed a number of

Page 6637

 1     civilians, and then there was the Bakrac case which is a small town in

 2     Slavonia east of Zagreb where there was also shooting, and that was also

 3     in May 1991.

 4             Then the Presidency of the SFRY sent some of their members, among

 5     them Mr. Stjepan Mesic, who I was a new -- a recent arrival at the

 6     Presidency.  They sent their members there to a fact-finding mission.

 7             I don't want to go into all the details, among others, because I

 8     don't know them all, and it was decided that JNA units in Croatia where

 9     there were clashes between Croats and Serbs - conditionally speaking,

10     though it would be better to say between paramilitaries of both sides -

11     that JNA units should be there as a buffer to prevent further clashes

12     until the burning issues were resolved politically.  This is it,

13     Mr. Stringer.

14        Q.   Thank you, General.  I've noted that the next addition you wanted

15     to make in -- is in paragraph 13 regarding military factors.

16             And, here, you wanted to add a reference to a book published by

17     Croatian General Spegelj?

18        A.   Yes, right, on page 6.

19        Q.   And I believe that you have referred to this book in another part

20     of your statement but you wanted to add a reference to it here as well.

21     Can you briefly describe for the Judges what you wanted to add to your

22     statement here.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry, I believe we've lost it again.  Yes.

24                      [Technical difficulty]

25             MR. STRINGER:

Page 6638

 1        Q.   General, are you --

 2        A.   I understood the question.

 3        Q.   Okay.  General, could you then briefly tell us what it was that

 4     you read in General Spegelj's book that you wanted to refer to here in

 5     paragraph 13.

 6        A.   I must point out, Mr. Prosecutor, that in 1991 I did not have

 7     that information.  I learned it by reading Mr. Spegelj's book.  He was a

 8     minister of defence.  He was chief of General Staff and in other high

 9     positions.  And the title of the book is "The Memories of a Soldier."  It

10     was published in Zagreb.

11             He says there that the Yugoslav People's Army in the

12     5th Military District, which is mostly Croatia and Slovenia, including

13     Bihac, a town in western Bosnia.  These are the territories of the

14     5th Military District.  That the JNA then had 44.000 men of a total of

15     160- or 170.000 that the JNA had in all.  Of those 44.000, 26 per cent

16     were Serbs and Montenegrins; 22 per cent were Croats; 8 per cent Muslims;

17     7 per cent Slovenians; 4 per cent Macedonians; and 4 per cent Hungarians,

18     Ruthenians, Slovaks, and others.  I believe that this is important

19     information because in the language used from the 1990s there's a mention

20     of the aggression of the Yugoslav People's Army against Croatia.  I

21     object to that term.  How can this joint military force of the

22     still-existing countries be an aggressor in its own country?

23             This is my conclusion from the precise information that

24     General Spegelj published in his book.

25             Thank you.

Page 6639

 1        Q.   Thank you, General.

 2        A.   You're welcome.

 3        Q.   Was there anything else on paragraph 13, or should we move to the

 4     next?

 5        A.   No, we can move on.  Thanks.  There's nothing else.

 6        Q.   And then in paragraph 15, I think you wanted to indicate that, in

 7     regard to the lack of response to the mobilisation, or the call-up, that

 8     some 17.000 did not respond to the call-up.  Did I note that correctly,

 9     for paragraph 15?

10        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, that's correct.  We're talking about 17.000

11     conscripts who were duty-bound to respond to the call-up.  In Slovenia,

12     in the summer of 1991, hardly anyone responded.  And Croatia was second

13     in that respect.  Followed by Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, and so on.

14     I'm speaking of a total of 17.000 conscripts.

15        Q.   And then in paragraph 22, General, where you're referring to a

16     number of incidents that occurred in Croatia in attacks or --or

17     activities related to the JNA, that you wanted to add, again, a reference

18     to something you'd read in General Spegelj's book.

19        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  General Spegelj states that from

20     mid-September - or, more precisely, the 13th of September, 1991 - until

21     the 20th of December of the same year, the Croatian army, according to

22     him, came by some weapons; that is, through fighting and attacks on the

23     JNA barracks, and these weapons were taken.  And then he goes on to list

24     200.000 pieces of infantry weapons; 450 mortars and recoilless guns; 180

25     artillery pieces, he also goes into detail as regards the calibre and so

Page 6640

 1     on; 280 cutting-edge anti-armour missiles, mostly mounted to vehicles but

 2     not exclusively.  Then 500 portable -- or, I'm sorry, 50 pieces of

 3     portable anti-aircraft missiles; 130 anti-aircraft guns; 380 missile

 4     launchers of the anti-aircraft defence for low altitudes, specifically

 5     I'm referring to the Strela 2M model.

 6             And my question to the interpreters:  Am I speaking too fast?

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  No.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of tanks; 320 armoured

 9     personnel carriers; 500.000 tonnes of ammunition, 500.000 tonnes; 1700

10     tonnes of explosives; 800 radios; 30 radars; 500 tonnes of

11     anti-aircraft --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Anti-tank mines.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of anti-personnel mines;

14     2.000 vehicles, motor vehicles.  And finally, on page 290 of his book, he

15     states that the Croatian armed forces in December 1991 and January 1992

16     had a numerical strength of about 250.000 armed men belonging to 63

17     brigades and dozens of battalions.

18             This is what I wanted to add, Mr. Prosecutor, for you to have a

19     better picture of the situation in the latter half of 1992

20     [as interpreted] in Croatia.

21             Thank you.

22             MR. STRINGER:

23        Q.   Just to correct the record there possibly.  Your -- in your

24     last -- the last sentence you just referred to giving a better picture of

25     the situation in the latter half of 1992.  Have you been talking about

Page 6641

 1     late 1992 or ... because in the previous paragraph, you mentioned late

 2     1991.

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, if I said 1992, I misspoke.  I meant the latter

 4     half of 1991; from September through December 1991.  That's the period

 5     General Spegelj discusses in his book, and he gives these figures for

 6     that period.  And he says that the Croatian armed forces had a total

 7     numerical strength of 250.000 armed men and that -- that applies to

 8     December 1991 and January 1992.  The year 1992 was mentioned in that

 9     context only.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, General, I'd like to take you back to

11     paragraph 17 of your statement.  I want to show you just a couple of the

12     documents.  So if you could turn to paragraph 17.

13             MR. STRINGER:  With the usher's assistance --

14        Q.   Well, let me first ask you:  General, in paragraph 17, do you see

15     about halfway down, that you refer to a series of documents that relate

16     to accepting and regulating volunteers who are coming in to the Serb

17     armed forces, the JNA, or the TOs.  Do you see the references to those

18     documents?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  And one of the documents --

21        A.   There's mention of the decree of the government of Serbia dated

22     the 14th of August, 1991, about the registration of volunteers with the

23     Territorial Defence.  That is one document.

24        Q.   That's right.  I've got a question for you about that one.

25             And with the Registrar's help, I'm going to ask that he show you

Page 6642

 1     the document 65 ter 773.1.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  And, Mr. President, what we're doing here is

 3     looking to substitute a better copy version of 773 for the one that is

 4     technically referred to in his statement.  That is to say, 65 ter 773,

 5     we're going to try to substitute that now with 773.1 and also what's been

 6     marked 773.2, because the copy is better.  And also it splits two

 7     different laws into two separate documents.  And the Defence has been

 8     informed.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Looks like I can't proceed quite yet.

11                           [Technical difficulty]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I see.

13             MR. STRINGER:

14        Q.   General, do we have you again?

15        A.   Yes, I hear you very well.  I have the document before me.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now --

17        A.   It bears number 743 on the left side, and it's the original

18     version from the Serbian government.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. STRINGER:  And could I just confirm for the record that --

21     with the Registrar that the witness is looking at 65 ter 773.1?

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I heard the confirmation from Belgrade.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.  I didn't -- I didn't hear that.  I

24     didn't get that.  Thank you, Mr. President.

25        Q.   General, the document that's in front of you that you've just

Page 6643

 1     referred to as Law Number 743, is that the document referring to in

 2     paragraph 17 dated 14 August 1991 on the registration of volunteers?

 3        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  This is the document I am speaking about.

 4        Q.   And then with the Registrar's assistance, I'd ask you to look at

 5     document 65 ter 773.2.

 6        A.   And that is?  Mr. Prosecutor --

 7        Q.   Do you see --

 8        A.   This is an order -- yes, of course, I see it.  773.2.  That's the

 9     document number.

10        Q.   And this is in the --

11        A.   In the upper left-hand corner there is a number 899 in the

12     Serbian original.  It's an order of the Presidency of the SFRY on the

13     engagement of volunteers in the armed forces of the SFRY during imminent

14     threat of war.  It's dated 10 December 1991.

15        Q.   And, General, the question here is simply to ask you whether you

16     also refer to this law in paragraph 17 of your statement.  It's the last

17     of the four documents that we -- you refer to here.

18        A.   Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.  Actually, I'm citing these documents

19     because the paramilitary units that were established more or less

20     voluntarily were to become legal armed forces where volunteers would be

21     accepted under different criteria than party affiliations or ethnicity,

22     and so on.  That is what I wanted to point out.

23        Q.   Thank you, General.  Now the last couple of questions I have

24     relate to paragraph 42 of your statement.  If I could ask you to turn,

25     please, to paragraph 42.

Page 6644

 1             And, General, while you're finding that, just to refresh you, in

 2     paragraph 42, you're referring to what you've just described as the --

 3     some of the legislation or steps taken to incorporate volunteers into TO

 4     units and to put them under the command of the local TO or JNA, as you

 5     say, in paragraph 42.

 6             And then you say the issue was addressed by the regulation on

 7     enlisting volunteers, issued by the government of Serbia on 23

 8     August 1991.  And the English version actually has a typographical error

 9     where it includes the number 23 twice.

10             General, my question is this --

11        A.   I apologise.  I made a mistake.  It was not the 23rd but, rather,

12     the 14th of August.  We saw the document a minute ago.  This should be

13     corrected.  So issued by the government of Serbia on the 14th of August.

14        Q.   Thank you, General.  That was -- that was my question.  So this

15     is a reference again to the law we just looked at, 773.1, dated 14

16     August, not 23 August.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you, General.

19        A.   That's correct.

20             MR. STRINGER:  And with that, Mr. President, the Prosecution

21     tenders the witness's statement, 65 ter 6393, together with the

22     associated exhibits noting the substitution of 773.1 and 773.2 instead of

23     65 ter 773.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked --

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No --

Page 6645

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Oh.  You -- did you rise, Mr. Zivanovic?

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  Yes, to say no objection.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the statement, 65 ter 6393,

 6     receives exhibit number P2300.

 7             65 ter 00773.1 receives exhibit number P2301.2300.

 8             And 65 ter 773.2 receives exhibit number P2302.2300.

 9             Thank you.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, there are two additional associated

11     exhibits that are normally marked by the Registrar after the witness is

12     finished testifying.  I can note those for the record but they're noted

13     on the spreadsheet that's been distributed.  They are 65 ter 297 and 405.

14     Those are also referred to in paragraph 17 of his statement.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Shall we give them numbers immediately

16     Madam Registrar or wait for a memo?  I think it's -- they're only two so

17     we can do it immediately.

18             Yes, please.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, 65 ter 297 will be

20     Exhibit P2303.2300.  And 65 ter 405 will be Exhibit P2304.2300.

21             Thank you.

22             MR. STRINGER:  No further questions, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, for cross, please.

Page 6646

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.  Before I start my cross, I would -- I

 2     noticed that the Prosecution did not ask the -- two questions to the

 3     witness as to Rule 92 ter statements.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Oh.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed.  Thank you, Mr. Zivanovic.  That's very

 6     helpful.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise for that.  It was -- I got a bit --

 8     too far down the road.

 9        Q.   General Djordjevic, I do have one last question.

10             Now that we've discussed all of the modifications, the additions

11     that you had raised when we spoke on Monday, do you affirm the

12     truthfulness and the accuracy of the statement that is in front of you,

13     taking into account the corrections that you've just made?

14        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I confirm that this is my statement and that it

15     reflects my words faithfully, and we have just made the necessary

16     corrections to it.

17        Q.   And if -- if we were to ask you questions about all of these same

18     issues again today, would your answers be the same?

19        A.   Mr. Stringer, Mr. Prosecutor, my answers would be the same, if

20     this were to be repeated.

21        Q.   Thank you, General.

22             MR. STRINGER:  I can tender it again --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

24             MR. STRINGER:  -- if it's necessary.  I appreciate counsel's

25     pointing that out.


Page 6647

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think it's okay, Mr. Stringer.  We have it on

 2     the record.  Even if it is before these or more sacral statement.

 3             Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, General.  My name is Zoran Zivanovic.

 7     I am Defence counsel for Mr. Hadzic in these proceedings.

 8        A.   Good day, Mr. Zivanovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Hadzic.

 9                           [Technical difficulty]

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Back in business, Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's disconnected.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you hear us, Mr. Djordjevic?

13        A.   Mr. Zivanovic, we hear each other.

14        Q.   Very well.

15             Mr. Djordjevic, first of all, I'd like to ask you the following.

16     In your statement, you pointed out, you said, you said that you were in

17     the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia between

18     mid-October until the 20th of December, 1991.

19        A.   Yes, correct.

20        Q.   And that you were involved in work that had to do with links with

21     the SAO Krajina, that you were in this co-ordination group that basically

22     contacted the SAO Krajina.  Was my understanding correct?

23        A.   With the SAO Krajinas, Mr. Zivanovic.  I mean, all three SAOs,

24     although the focus was on the so-called Knin Krajina.

25        Q.   In paragraph 66 of your statement, we can take a look at that

Page 6648

 1     now.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You said that appointments -- you said, inter alia, that the

 4     order for the establishment of the co-ordination group of the Serbian

 5     Ministry of Defence was issued by the Federal Secretariat of National

 6     Defence and that the personnel administration of the Federal Secretariat

 7     of National Defence was in charge of appointing officers who were to be

 8     employed in the republic's administration.

 9             This is what I would be interested in now.  I actually understand

10     this part of the statement but I'm just asking whether that also

11     pertained to other employees in the Ministry of Defence of the Republic

12     of Serbia?

13        A.   Counsel, Mr. Zivanovic, the Federal Secretariat for national

14     Defence, by way of its orders, appoints officers from the rank of colonel

15     downwards in the Ministry of Defence of Serbia as permanent employees in

16     that ministry of the republic; whereas, the Presidency of the SFRY

17     appoints generals in the Ministry of Defence or, rather, makes them

18     available to the government and Assembly of the Republic of Serbia that

19     then appoints them at a session of the assembly on the basis of an order

20     issued by the Presidency.  That they are being transferred to the

21     republic, but it is the republic that appoints them specifically in the

22     ministry and we, the co-ordination group, we are just there as a

23     temporary single organ on the basis of the order of the

24     Federal Secretariat of National Defence.  Because we were about to retire

25     or had just retired.  We did not have a regular assignment in units,

Page 6649

 1     commands, institutions of the JNA, and so on and so forth.

 2        Q.   If we look at paragraph 67 of your statement --

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   -- it says that:

 5             "The personnel administration and the General Staff Mobilisation

 6     Administration sent a group of retired JNA officers, or officers pending

 7     retirement, to be attached to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia on a

 8     temporary basis."

 9             Later on, it says that the ministry deployed some of its

10     ministers -- some of its officers in the newly appointed units or

11     military territorial organs, VTO, which units were responsible for

12     recruiting and mobilisation.

13             Could you clarify that a bit?

14        A.   Of course, I would, Counsel, Mr. Zivanovic.  This is what it is

15     all about:  Up until then, the Autumn of 1991, the Autumn of 1991,

16     mobilisation was carried out by the Ministry of Defence of the republics

17     through its secretariats of defence, in cities, in municipalities, and so

18     on.  However, the Presidency decided that this task should be taken from

19     the Ministry of Defence and that it should be transferred to the

20     so-called military departments.  Military territorial organs, rather,

21     that were territorial organs of the JNA, that they should deal with

22     recruitment and mobilisation.  Since this was a transition period, the

23     Ministry of Defence of Serbia sent a certain number of officers to these

24     newly appointed territorial organs.  I cannot say exactly how many.

25     However, they did not have the necessary number of officers, so then in

Page 6650

 1     agreement with the Federal Secretariat of National Defence, they agreed

 2     that this co-ordination group for the SAO Krajina should be established,

 3     and I was a member of that group.  That was it, Mr. Zivanovic.

 4        Q.   In the next paragraph of your statement, that is, paragraph 68 --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   -- you say that this group mediated between the Territorial

 7     Defence Staff of the SAO Krajina and the logistics sector of the

 8     Federal Secretariat of National Defence and the agencies of the

 9     1st Army District Command for issuing necessary supplies and materials.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   In other words, for various supplies for the Territorial Defence

12     of the SAO Krajina, its organs had to turn to the organs of the Republic

13     of Serbia; isn't that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   As far as I can see, it was just a mediator, an intermediary,

16     vis-a-vis the 1st Army District and this logistic centre of the Federal

17     Secretariat for National Defence?

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.  May I just provide a brief explanation?

19        Q.   Please do.

20        A.   Staffs sent -- commanders of staffs from the Krajina sent their

21     requests to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia, and sometimes these

22     requested would be sent to us too.  Although we were not, de jure, the

23     organ that was supposed to do this.  We were just there as an

24     intermediary, and then these requests would be examined in these two

25     institutions:  The command of the 1st Military District and the logistics

Page 6651

 1     administrations of the Federal Secretariat.  And then on the basis of

 2     that, a decision would be made on the quantities that would be made

 3     available to them.

 4             However, we did not drive that out, if I may put it that way,

 5     sorry.  This was done by these JNA institutions that I already referred

 6     to.

 7        Q.   The Prosecutor showed you documents that have to do with the

 8     involvement of volunteers.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you saw a document --

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That is, 297, dated 13th of

12     September, 1991.  Could we please take a look at it again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an instruction from the

14     3rd Administration of the General Staff but it bears the signature of

15     General Kadijevic, the federal secretary of national defence.  And

16     3rd Administration was otherwise in charge of organisation,

17     establishment, and mobilisation.  Mobilisation -- I mean, the recruitment

18     system, if I can put it that way, and mobilising reserves and so on and

19     so forth, volunteers, et cetera.  In a word, mobilisation of the human

20     potential of the armed forces.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please take a look at this

22     document, 297.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   If we look at this text, I think it is quite clear that we see

Page 6652

 1     how volunteers are admitted into the Yugoslav People's Army.  Do you

 2     agree with that?

 3        A.   I agree, Mr. Zivanovic.  There should have been an attachment

 4     here, a statement, you see, for the admission of volunteers into the JNA

 5     and TO.  This was a standard form, including personal and details and so

 6     on.  However, it's not indispensable.  It goes without saying that that

 7     should be attached to this.

 8        Q.   The second document that was shown to you by the Prosecution,

 9     773.2, that also regulates admission into the JNA of volunteers.  The

10     10th of December is the date.  So it's three months later.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you explain the reason why it is necessary to publish two

13     documents for the -- absolutely same thing?  The first document had

14     resolved everything.

15        A.   Mr. Zivanovic?

16        Q.   Yes, I hear you.

17        A.   I think that it happened that way because of the increasing

18     number of objections in the public and among the authorities, including

19     the organs of the Republic of Serbia, in relation to the behaviour of the

20     volunteers.  And the fact that they were being admitted without applying

21     criteria that were indispensable for admission into the JNA and

22     Territorial Defence.  So this was supposed to be dealt with at the

23     highest level possible.  And it should be made binding on the

24     subordinates and everybody is subordinate to the Supreme Command of the

25     JNA.  Everybody strictly, therefore, had to apply these orders and

Page 6653

 1     instructions that had been issued even in the previous period.

 2             However, this could have been done at one particular point in

 3     time but I don't know whether it's a question of co-ordination or

 4     whatever.  But, anyway, there are three documents regulating one and the

 5     seam issue.  I don't have a convincing answer except for providing this

 6     personal point of view.

 7        Q.   In a word, do you believe that that first document that I showed

 8     you, the -- dated 13th of September, 1991, was it consistently applied?

 9        A.   It had to be applied.  Now whether it was applied, Mr. Zivanovic,

10     in practice, that I cannot confirm for you.

11        Q.   Could we please take a look at paragraph 7 of this order.

12        A.   That we're talking about?

13        Q.   That we're talking about.  This order envisages that volunteer

14     formations that are engaged outside the armed forces of the SFRY and that

15     are carrying out certain tasks have to be placed either under the command

16     of the armed forces of the SFRY, in accordance with regulations and this

17     order, within ten days.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   It was also stated that if they are not involved in the armed

20     forces in the manner prescribed, they would be removed from the

21     territory.

22        A.   Outside the armed forces.

23        Q.   Outside the armed forces.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   This is what I would be interested in now:  Why -- do you know

Page 6654

 1     know, actually, why this was not applied up until the 10th of December,

 2     1991?

 3        A.   I think -- this is my feeling.  This is just my very own thought.

 4     A large number of people, Serbia included, that the JNA and the

 5     Territorial Defence relied on then, actually, not the Krajina, but

 6     Serbia, were trying to dodge the draft and many fled abroad.  And

 7     probably it is for that reason, namely, there weren't enough soldiers, if

 8     I can put it that way, in the Territorial Defence units, first and

 9     foremost, but also JNA.  This was tacitly accepted, that part of these

10     volunteers that had already been involved were taken in; that is to say,

11     the Territorial Defence of one or the other Krajina and so on.

12             And in order to bring all of this into accord with legal

13     regulations, that is why this was prescribed that way.  Also, certain

14     sanctions would be imposed on those who did not abide by that because at

15     first the volunteers did not wish to be under the jurisdiction of JNA

16     commands or under the command of the Territorial Defence of the Krajina

17     that already become official by that point in time.  Or perhaps if they

18     were placed under their command, they did it gingerly if I can put it

19     that way.

20             So I don't know if that's an answer that satisfies you,

21     Mr. Zivanovic.

22        Q.   And can you explain why these people were simply not mobilised

23     into the JNA?

24        A.   Mr. Zivanovic when this so-called courier comes, the person who

25     bringing call-up papers, many would say, "He's absent."  "We don't know

Page 6655

 1     where he is."  "He's away on a trip," and so on.  Quite simply, they

 2     didn't want to go.  Now, this is my very own point of view as a citizen.

 3     Many did not believe in the final outcome of all of these conflicts and

 4     they didn't know what it was that they were supposed to be fighting for.

 5     There you go.

 6        Q.   All right.  If they were not mobilised at their homes, they could

 7     have been mobilised once they were in a volunteer unit on the spot, on

 8     the ground.

 9        A.   Mr. Zivanovic, those who were already in volunteer units had to

10     be placed under the command either of the Territorial Defence or the JNA,

11     and there was need -- no need for them to be called up again and

12     recruited, quite simply, in my view.

13        Q.   Can you tell me roughly when it was that they were placed under

14     the command of the JNA or, rather, the Territorial Defence, as you say?

15        A.   I believe that it was in early October 1991, after this

16     government order, after all these interventions.  Even we from the

17     co-ordination group drafted a report based on the information received

18     from the staffs of the Krajinas, and Minister Simovic forwarded that

19     report to the General Staff upon which General Adzic demanded that this

20     be strictly implemented, as well as the instruction that was to follow

21     from the federal secretary and the Presidency of the SFRY.

22        Q.   Do tell me if, as far as you know, the Ministry of Defence had

23     contacts with these volunteers' formations.

24        A.   Mr. Zivanovic, the Ministry of Defence, in principle, had no

25     correspondence with volunteers.  They didn't discuss anything with them.

Page 6656

 1             However, there were individual meetings.  Now, of course, I

 2     cannot remember at each individual meeting who met whom.  But there was

 3     something irregular, and I'll tell you what.  The head of office of the

 4     then-Ministry of Defence, General Simovic, Dobrila Gajic-Glisic, in his

 5     statement given to this same name Tribunal, mentions that thousands of

 6     volunteers of the Ministry of Defence of Serbia and so on, of which not

 7     one word is true.  At least not while I was at the Ministry of Defence.

 8             The Ministry of Defence of Serbia or my co-ordination group did

 9     not deploy volunteers.  We only dealt with officers who were to assigned

10     to the TO Staff of Knin or Pakrac or Beli Manastir, to Mr. Hadzic's

11     staff, or -- or what have you, but we had nothing to do with the

12     volunteers.  It was the -- it was the military departments that dealt

13     with them.

14        Q.   When you mentioned staffs, which staff did you mean?

15        A.   In principle, the staff of the Territorial Defence.  But,

16     unfortunately, I didn't know the commander or the person in charge, so I

17     couldn't give you the name or their rank.

18             Some of my officers were in communication with the people from

19     the TO Staff of Eastern Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  They

20     exchanged some information and so on, but not me.  So I'm not familiar

21     with these things.

22        Q.   I can see that you said that you know the statement of

23     Dobrila Gajic-Glisic.  In her statement, as far as I know, she mentioned

24     one Kojic, if you remember.

25        A.   Now you've reminded me but I don't know the man.

Page 6657

 1        Q.   Do you remember any communication between the Ministry of Defence

 2     and this man who, for a while, was a TO commander in Slavonia, Baranja,

 3     and Western Srem?

 4        A.   Unfortunately, I have no information whatsoever about that.

 5             But if I may, once there was a volunteers' leader, the leader of

 6     some volunteer soldiers.  He came to the Ministry of Defence of Serbia.

 7     I know that that man was a first-day partisan in the Second World War,

 8     and General Simovic told me to receive him to hear what he wanted.

 9             If I may continue.  This leader of that group of volunteers asked

10     us to provide five buses.  And I asked him, "But where are you going?

11     Who are you going to?  Under whose command will you place yourself?"  And

12     he replied to me -- I believe that he hailed from those areas.  He said,

13     "Over there," or "yonder."  And I replied, "Dear sir, contact those who

14     promised that to you.  We don't recruit volunteers and we don't provide

15     buses."

16             This is all I remember, but anything else as concerns Mr. Kojic

17     and General Simovic isn't anything I can tell you about.

18        Q.   I'll now show you a document that was drafted before you --

19     before your time at the Ministry of Defence, but it may jog your memory.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The document is 1D501.

21        Q.   This is a document dated the 18th of September, 1991.  You can

22     see that it was -- it originated from the Ministry of Defence and was

23     sent to Martic and Kojic.  And it mentions the Territorial Defences of

24     the SAO Krajina, the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and that

25     this is an order.  And a complete cease-fire is to be established as of

Page 6658

 1     the 18th of September, 1991, and so on.  We can turn the page now.

 2        A.   No.  Yes, I can see it, cease-fire, it says.  Mr. Zivanovic --

 3        Q.   Just a minute.  Let me finish.

 4             You can see that the signatory is General Simovic, minister.

 5        A.   I have never seen this before.  I didn't know about this document

 6     then, nor do I know anything about it now.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see the last page of the English version.

 8     Yes, that's it.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] I said it right away, General, that this

10     document was drafted before you took up your job at the Ministry of

11     Defence of Serbia.

12             However, based on this, can I tell that General Simovic issued

13     direct orders to the commander of the TO of Krajina, SAO Krajina, and the

14     commander of the TO of the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  Now

15     I wanted too ask you if you are familiar with this and if there were such

16     occurrences at your -- during your time at the ministry.

17        A.   No, Mr. Zivanovic, I've never seen this document before.  It is

18     not my intention to justify this because this puts into question my whole

19     statement.

20             But if you read what it says above the words "I hereby order,"

21     namely, that President Tudjman and President Milosevic agreed on a

22     cease-fire, and so on, and in connection with that, I hereby order, and

23     so on.  But to the extent I knew the constitutional Law on All People's

24     Defence, General Simovic had no right to issue such orders.  He was

25     evenly entitled to inform others and give instructions, bear that in

Page 6659

 1     mind, take care that, and so on.  However, this is an order.  This is the

 2     way I see it anyway.  At my time, I never saw any such orders.  Only

 3     information documents and -- and the like.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You have mentioned the testimony of

 5     Dobrila Gajic-Glisic, and you heard that testimony.  Did you know that --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, is this a different topic?  I'm

 7     looking at the time, and it is more or less time for a break.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, we could make a break.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Appropriate?  Thank you.

10             General Djordjevic, we'll take our first break right now.  30

11     minutes.  So we will be back at, let's say, 11.30.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

14                           --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, just for planning purposes, how

17     long do you think your cross-examination will take?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think not more than 10 to 15 minutes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

20             Mr. Stringer, is your next witness available or are you able to

21     makes him to be available.

22             MR. STRINGER:  I believe so, Mr. President.  We'll double-check

23     just in the course of the next few minutes though.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 6660

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender the document I just

 2     used with -- before the break with the witness.  It is 1D501.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, I see you rise.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  We would object to it, Mr. President.  The witness

 5     said he has never seen it before and that he couldn't make any comment on

 6     it.  I can -- I was just noting the transcript reference.  And I can give

 7     that to Your Honours --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I think we all remember what he said,

 9     Mr. Stringer.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I will further ask the witness about some facts

11     from this document, Your Honour, before I definitely ask to tender it.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

13             Please proceed.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, you must have this document we discussed before the

16     break before you.  Do tell me if you can recognise the signature of

17     Mr. Simovic on this document.

18        A.   Mr. Zivanovic, it's difficult to make out.  It's rather blurred.

19     I'm not sure.

20        Q.   Can you recognise the stamp of the Ministry of Defence of the

21     Republic of Serbia?

22        A.   Yes.  The stamp, yes.  I recognise it.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would ask to tender this document, Your Honour.

24             MR. STRINGER:  We would, again, assert an objection to the

25     admission of the document.  Just because it bears the stamp of the

Page 6661

 1     Serbian Ministry of Defence doesn't mean it's admissible through this

 2     witness who said at page 32, line 2, that he's never seen it before, he

 3     didn't know about this document then "nor do I know anything about it

 4     now."  I think there's simply not enough of a foundation that's been

 5     laid.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection sustained.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You said that you heard the testimony of Dobrila Gajic-Glisic.

 9        A.   I'm sorry, Mr. Zivanovic, I was not listening to it.  I didn't

10     hear it.  I took it off the Internet from the web site of the

11     Humanitarian Law Fund.  I didn't hear the testimony.

12        Q.   Thank you for this clarification.  But, at any rate, you are

13     familiar with the content?

14        A.   Yes, that is correct.  Do you want me to comment on it?

15        Q.   Well, yes, if you have a general comment to make.

16        A.   That story of hers, for example, that Mr. Raznjatovic came

17     there -- came to the Ministry of Defence with a bloody rifle and that he

18     went there a number of times, I cannot say a word about that because I

19     have no idea.  I only meant Mr. Raznjatovic once in my entire life, and

20     when he came with Mr. Hadzic - I don't know in what capacity - and

21     especially I don't know anything about these assertions about bloody

22     rifles and the like.

23        Q.   Do you know whether there was any contact between the Ministry of

24     Defence of the Republic of Serbia and Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan; that is,

25     his Serbian Volunteers Guard?

Page 6662

 1        A.   I do not know, Mr. Zivanovic, but I cannot say whether or not

 2     anybody from the ministry contacted him.  But not to my knowledge.  The

 3     first and last time I saw him he was with Mr. Hadzic.  And I know that

 4     later on General Simovic entered the office and warned him to remove his

 5     colonel's rank because he was wearing one.  I'm not sure how he addressed

 6     him, by his first name or otherwise, and he told him, "You only have the

 7     right to wear a rank when you are promoted to that rank through an order

 8     of the federal ministry."  And that's all I can say.

 9        Q.   Just for clarification purposes.  He said that to

10     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan?

11        A.   Yes.  When Mr. Hadzic and he came for the first time, and when I

12     met them in the office.  I know that Mr. Hadzic came to see the minister,

13     but the then-newly appointed minister of foreign affairs of Serbia,

14     Vladislav Jovanovic also came.  And General Simovic summoned me to talk

15     to Mr. Hadzic and Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic was present.  That's all I know.

16        Q.   I believe you said something about that in paragraph 71 of your

17     statement so we can return to that.

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   I'll show you another document, 1D499.  The Serbian text is

20     rather pale, but the English translation is clearly visible.  It's a very

21     short document, so if you cannot read it, I can read it out to you.

22             Can you read the Serbian text?  Can you see it well?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   As you can see, in parenthesis Arkan's group, and there is an

25     account number, and beneath that a comment stating that each month

Page 6663

 1     regularly payments with the assistance of RSNO (Simovic) and signed by

 2     Frenki.

 3             Let me just finish.  And we see the date of 10 December 1991 in

 4     the upper corner.

 5        A.   I have never seen this document before, Mr. Zivanovic.  I have no

 6     idea what this is about.  Nor do I know this man, Frenki.

 7        Q.   I wasn't going to ask you about Frenki.  Merely tell me whether

 8     you know that the Serbian Volunteers Guard was funded with the assistance

 9     of the Ministry of Defence of the Republic of Serbia?  At least that's

10     the way I interpret this document.

11        A.   I don't know that, Mr. Zivanovic.  I know that we made a

12     proposal, that the minister processed, and that they turned to the

13     General Staff to regulate the matter of volunteers and reservists.  As

14     for Arkan and his men, I know nothing about this.

15        Q.   The TO members were paid regularly, I suppose.  Not through the

16     mediation of Jugoskandik?

17        A.   This is the first time I hear of it, Mr. Zivanovic.  This

18     company, Jugoskandik, financing these things, never heard of this before.

19        Q.   You said that there was a proposal for regular payments to be

20     effected to members of the TO, and my question is whether that all went

21     regularly and legally through the Ministry of Defence or the TO or

22     whichever way, or whether payments went through Jugoskandik as this

23     document suggests?

24        A.   I don't know the first thing about this Skandik or whatever it's

25     called, but I know that in December or maybe in January 1992, the

Page 6664

 1     decision was passed for the government of the Serbia and the SSNO to send

 2     money to -- I express myself in plain language, to the SDK at Glina,

 3     Banja Luka, and Novi Sad from where the monies were distributed on to the

 4     financial bodies of the TO staffs for money, for revenue, or income to be

 5     dispersed.  I don't know anything about Jugoskandik.

 6        Q.   In other words, payment through the SDK was the regular channels

 7     as prescribed by law.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   That is what I wanted to ask you.  And I would just like to us

10     clarify paragraph 71 of your statement --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- where you say that you were present when Goran Hadzic and

13     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, came to the Ministry of --

14        A.   Defence.

15        Q.   -- Defence?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On that occasion, he brought some paper with a request for 30.000

18     or 40.000 grenades for a gun, a cannon, that was practically not being

19     used anymore, was dated at any rate.  This is what I would be interested

20     in now.  Can you remember?

21        A.   Sir?  Counsel?  May I answer your question?

22        Q.   If you heard my entire question because I see that there was an

23     interruption again.

24        A.   Yes.  My understanding was that Mr. Goran Hadzic was not familiar

25     with the criteria.  For example, as far as combat kits are concerned, how


Page 6665

 1     many grenades are needed for one gun and so on.  Somebody from his staff

 2     brought that to him, and I said to him, "Mr. Hadzic, I don't know if all

 3     of the JNA has that many grenades."  You noticed that very well,

 4     Mr. Zivanovic.  Some would be found of these guns but they were obsolete.

 5     And then when such requests were brought in, then a person took this upon

 6     himself, and I asked Mr. Hadzic to send another request to say how many

 7     guns they had, and then, on the basis of the valid criteria for the armed

 8     forces, then it would be determined how many grenades they would get, and

 9     then this colonel would get that through the 1st Military District.  I'm

10     not aware of what happened afterwards.  This is just an episode, not

11     particularly intriguing or important.  So ... that would be it.

12        Q.   Thank you, General, sir.  I have no further questions for you.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I finished my cross-examination.

14             Your Honours, I would just tender this document, 1D499, although

15     I -- I know for the outcome but I must propose it.

16             MR. STRINGER:  The -- our -- Prosecution objects on the grounds

17     that a foundation has not been laid.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection sustained.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I just have -- one -- one very

20     brief --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Stringer.

22             MR. STRINGER:  -- issue for re-direct.

23                           Re-examination by Mr. Stringer:

24        Q.   General Djordjevic, you were just asked a moment ago about this

25     issue of salaries and you referred to a proposal that was made regarding

Page 6666

 1     salaries.  Do you remember that?

 2        A.   I remember that, Mr. Stringer.

 3        Q.   Could I ask you to turn to paragraph 39 of your statement,

 4     please.

 5             And just for the -- the Chamber's information, does this --

 6        A.   I have read that.

 7        Q.   -- does this paragraph relate to the issue that you just spoke

 8     about on the issue of -- or the proposal in respect of salaries?

 9        A.   Mr. Stringer, it is related to that, although I would like to

10     repeat that I don't know about Jugoskandik and the rest.  This is

11     correctly stated, and that is the way it was.

12        Q.   And as indicated here, then, your proposal had not been

13     implemented as of December when you left the co-ordination office in the

14     Ministry of Defence?

15        A.   Yes.  Until then, it hadn't been implemented, but I heard --

16     excuse me for a moment.  I see that -- I see on the basis of certain

17     papers that they started making these payments from January 1992.  Now

18     whether they were making retroactive payments as well, I don't know.

19        Q.   Do you have any personal knowledge about whether such payments

20     were made after you left the co-ordination group?

21        A.   No, no, I don't, no.  Mr. Stringer, Mr. Prosecutor, the

22     co-ordination group was practically dissolved after I left.  A colonel

23     stayed on from that group.  I cannot recall his name right now.  I heard

24     that he died a few years ago as well.  I heard that from another person.

25     He stayed behind to take care of some of the papers there that had


Page 6667

 1     remained from our work, and he stayed there to hand over all of that to

 2     the Ministry of Defence, and this co-ordination group was never

 3     re-established, so I never had any opportunity to contact them or to

 4     express any interest in these payments, salaries, and so on.

 5             That would be my answer, Mr. Stringer.

 6        Q.   Thank you, General.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  No further questions, Your Honour.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]

10                           Questioned by the Court:

11             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Witness, I have a

12     clarification question to ask you with regard to your testimony this

13     morning.

14             On transcript page 29 and 30, so pages 29 and 30, you said that

15     the Ministry of Defence in Serbia did not deal with voluntary --

16     volunteers, in principle, nor did your co-ordination group.  Your

17     co-ordination group was not in charge of deploying volunteers; but, at

18     the same time, you said that the military departments were in charge of

19     them.  I'm referring to page 30, line 8:  "It was the military

20     departments that dealt with them."

21             So there something I don't understand because it seems that there

22     is a contradiction here.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Mindua, I'm going

24     to repeat this in case you haven't noticed.  The Ministry of Defence of

25     Serbia, through its secretariats at lower-ranking communities, cities,

Page 6668

 1     municipalities, et cetera, they dealt with all of this work until the

 2     autumn of 1991, and then all matters related to recruitment, that is to

 3     say, call-up into the armed forces, then taking in volunteers,

 4     registering them, and deploying them to particular unit, all of this was

 5     transferred to the military departments.

 6             Military departments are organs that remain in the territory.

 7     They are not units that are involved in manoeuvres on the ground.  They

 8     have military departments in different cities.  And I mentioned that the

 9     Ministry of Defence, at that point in time, that is to say, during this

10     hand-over stage, if I can put it that way, between the Ministry of

11     Defence and the JNA organ, that is to say, military departments, they

12     sent some military officers to these military departments and then they

13     had less officers in the ministry itself.  And then we, as a some kind of

14     temporary organ, appeared there to take care of some of this work.

15             So there is no nothing controversial about it.  Quite simply,

16     this transitional period between the Ministry of Defence dealing with

17     this and the armed forces and their organs dealing with it.  That is to

18     say, the military territorial organs, the military departments.

19             I hope that that was satisfactory.  I'm prepared to give further

20     explanations, if necessary.

21             Thank you too, sir.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  It's very

23     clear.  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too sir.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  General Djordjevic, this brings your testimony to


Page 6669

 1     an end.  We thank you very much for assisting the Tribunal.  You are now

 2     released as a witness, and we wish you a safe journey back home.

 3             Thank you so much.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to thank

 5     you as well.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7                           [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, do you have a next witness?

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're ready.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             Next witness may be brought in.

12             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Good morning, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Demirdjian.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  For the record, we are here with one of our

15     interns, Ms. Khushboo Shahdadpuri.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  While we are waiting for the witness, we can

19     perhaps deal with two oral rulings.  The one I started -- I mentioned

20     yesterday with regard to the motion to admit Exhibit 1D468 filed on the

21     27th of June, pertaining to a videolink, the Defence stated that the

22     Prosecution has no objection, and I asked whether that was correct.

23             Mr. Stringer?  Can you -- do you have an answer to that one?

24             MR. STRINGER:  I apologise, Mr. President.

25             I have -- if -- if the Defence has -- has indicated that the


Page 6670

 1     Prosecution has no objection, I have no reason to question that.  I

 2     don't -- I don't have in my mind at the moment the specific document

 3     involved, but if -- if that is, indeed, the Prosecution position we've

 4     expressed to the Defence I'm sure it's correct.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It was written on hard copy paper, Mr. Stringer,

 6     so --

 7             Mr. Gosnell.

 8             MR. GOSNELL:  I could perhaps assist.

 9             This is a reminder.  This is about the Latinica video for which a

10     transcript was provided.

11             MR. STRINGER:  That's correct.  There's no objection, Mr.

12     President.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  The motion is granted.  The Registry

14     shall mark the video and accompanying transcripts as admitted into

15     evidence.

16             The Defence is reminded that copies of videos and their

17     transcripts must be provided to the Prosecution, Registry, and Chamber in

18     advance of them being tendered as evidence.

19             Second oral ruling is in private session.

20             Could we go into private session, please.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6671











11 Page 6671 redacted. Private session.















Page 6672

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning, Mr. Witness.  Do you hear me in a

10     language you understand?

11             Mr. Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for coming to The Hague to assist the

14     Tribunal, Mr. Witness.  May I ask you to state your name and your date of

15     birth.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jozo Knezevic, the 20th -- the 22nd

17     of July, 1960.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have trouble hearing

19     the witness.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Knezevic, could you speak a little bit

21     louder, please.  The interpreters have difficulty hearing you.

22             You are about to make the solemn declaration by which witnesses

23     commit themselves to tell the truth.  I must point out to you that by

24     doing so, you expose yourself to the penalties of perjury, should you

25     give untruthful information to the Tribunal.


Page 6673

 1             Please read the solemn declaration now the court usher will give

 2     you to.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  JOZO KNEZEVIC

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

 8             Mr. Demirdjian, your witness.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10                           Examination by Mr. Demirdjian:

11        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Knezevic.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   You already provided the Trial Chamber with your name and your

14     date of birth.  Can you tell the Court where you were born?

15        A.   In Osijek.

16        Q.   And where have you been living since you were born until the

17     start of the conflict in 1991?

18        A.   I lived in Tenja.

19        Q.   And in Tenja, who did you live with?

20        A.   With my parents.  My mother, father, and brother.

21        Q.   Now, before the beginning of the conflict, what was your

22     profession or your line of work?

23        A.   Well, I worked at the factory that manufactured agricultural

24     machinery, things like that.

25        Q.   And this was in the village of Tenja?

Page 6674

 1        A.   No, it Osijek.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And do you have any siblings?

 3        A.   I have two brothers and a sister.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber in which part of

 5     Tenja you were living at the time?

 6        A.   The old part of Tenja.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And I will show you in a moment an aerial image of Tenja,

 8     and I would like you to help us locate it.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  It's 65 ter 6304, please, at tab 11 of our list.

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, on screen, on the right-hand screen, you will see an

11     image of Tenja.  You can just wait for a moment.  Yes.  Are you -- are

12     you familiar with this picture?

13        A.   Well, I don't really know much about this ...

14        Q.   Maybe if we can zoom a little bit into the centre of the picture.

15     Do you remember having seen this picture before?

16        A.   I don't remember.

17        Q.   Mr. Knezevic, about a month ago, do you remember having been met

18     by an investigator of the Office of the Prosecutor?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you remember on that occasion being shown an image of Tenja?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And the one that we have on the screen, is this not the image

23     that was shown to you at the time?

24        A.   I cannot -- well, I think it is.  I don't know.  Somehow it's not

25     exactly familiar.

Page 6675

 1        Q.   Okay.  Are you -- you're not able to situate yourself with this

 2     image?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.  Yes, I cannot.

 4        Q.   Very well.  We can put this way away for the time being.

 5             Mr. Knezevic, near your home, was there any building of -- of

 6     significance?

 7        A.   There was the army, the JNA, the barracks.  And the rest were

 8     sort of peasant's houses.

 9        Q.   And was there a local commune building in Tenja?

10        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes, there was a building of the local commune.

11        Q.   How far was that from your home?

12        A.   Well, I don't know, say, 2 or 3 kilometres.

13        Q.   Very well.  Now earlier -- sorry, go ahead.

14             Earlier you told us that you lived in the old part of Tenja.  Are

15     you able to describe to the Court --

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Are you able to describe to the Court what the old and the new

18     part of Tenja, how are they organised?  If can you describe them.

19        A.   Well, how do I put this?  The old Tenja, of course, was sort of

20     normal.  And then in new Tenja, there were more Orthodox people and in

21     the other one there are more Croats.  Things like that.

22        Q.   And the old Tenja is in the direction of which town?

23        A.   Well, that road basically went to Vukovar, the area where I

24     lived, old Tenja.  And new Tenja is towards Osijek.

25        Q.   Very well.  Now before the war, Mr. Knezevic, where did your

Page 6676

 1     father work?

 2        A.   In Germany for 30 years.

 3        Q.   And what -- what was his line of work in Germany?

 4        A.   Well, transmission lines, electricity.  They put up those posts,

 5     pillars, all over the area.

 6        Q.   And for your family living in Tenja, the fact that your father

 7     was working in Germany, what did that mean?

 8        A.   Well, it's not that we could live on nothing.  He had to go there

 9     and work because the old house was crumbling and we had no money unless

10     he went there, and that's how it was possible to build a new house.

11        Q.   Now, with respect to the village of Tenja, what was the

12     population, approximately, before the beginning of the conflict?

13        A.   Five- or six thousand inhabitants.

14        Q.   And are you able to tell the Court what were the portions roughly

15     between the ethnic groups?

16        A.   Yes.  There was some 30 per cent Croats and all the rest were

17     Serbs.

18             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, before I continue, are we taking

19     the break at the usual time or are we carrying on until a certain point?

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I must say I didn't think about it yet,

21     Mr. Demirdjian.  Shall we say we continue for 15 minutes.

22             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Until 12.30.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And take the break at 12.30.

24             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Knezevic, you just told us there was about 30 per cent

Page 6677

 1     of Croats and the rest were Serbs.

 2             Now my next question to you is:  Did you know prior to the

 3     beginning of the conflict, did you know prior to the beginning of the

 4     conflict who were the political leaders in the village of Tenja?

 5        A.   They were mostly Serbs because they were the majority, and they

 6     ran the local commune before the war all the time.

 7        Q.   Are you able to tell us who were some of these leaders in the

 8     town?

 9        A.   Mile Jajic, Bozo Vidakovic, Jovan Rebraca, Marko Vukas.  Then

10     there was -- what was his name again?  Tubic.  They were the leading

11     people in the local commune.

12        Q.   I'm going to ask you about each of them.  And starting with the

13     first name, you told us, Mile Jajic.  What was his role prior to the

14     beginning of the conflict?  His role or his position.

15        A.   Well, he was kind of a president of the local commune.  That's

16     what he was, I think.  And he was also the manager of the driving school.

17        Q.   Did you know him personally?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   And can you tell the Court how you knew him.

20        A.   Well, I saw him around because I lived there.  I saw him at the

21     local commune, I saw him at the football pitch.  He would come to soccer

22     matches, and -- you know.

23        Q.   You will you mentioned Jovo Rebraca.  I will ask you the same

24     question.  What was his position and his -- or his role in -- in Tenja?

25        A.   He was the commander of the whole local commune of all of Tenja.

Page 6678

 1     He was there throughout the war.

 2        Q.   Now when you say he was the commander, could you be more specific

 3     about -- he was the commander of what exactly?

 4        A.   Commander of that Serbian army.  He led in that Serbian army.

 5     What do I know?

 6        Q.   Very well.  The next name you mentioned was Bozo Vidakovic.

 7     Again, the same question.  What was his role or his position before the

 8     war?

 9        A.   He was also deputy of Rebraca, I don't know.  He was a commander

10     of that street where I lived, a couple of streets where I lived.  He came

11     to my house and stuff.

12        Q.   Now, before the war, what was his -- did he -- did he work?

13        A.   Yes.  I think that he worked at Sloboda.  He was a truck driver.

14        Q.   Very well.  And I apologise, with respect to Jovo Rebraca, I

15     forgot to ask whether you knew him personally.

16        A.   Yes, yes, I did.  I knew him well.

17        Q.   And, again, may I ask you to tell the Court how you knew him

18     well.

19        A.   Well, you know, I lived there all the time, and so did he.  And

20     he was a police officer in Yugoslavia.  And when the rebellion began, he

21     no longer went to work at the police, and he became the commander of

22     Tenja.  And he also liked soccer.  My aunt lived close to his place, and

23     that's how.

24        Q.   Now, I'd like you to tell the Court at the beginning of 1991,

25     before the -- the conflict started, what was the relationship between the

Page 6679

 1     ethnic groups in Tenja?

 2        A.   Before the war, it was all right.  People got along with each

 3     other.  In my street, there were only two Croatian houses.  All the

 4     others were Serbs, Orthodox Christians.  Well, we socialised on occasions

 5     such as new year.  And it was all right until the war began, and

 6     political leaders came and called people to -- to rebel, that this should

 7     all be Serbian and strife began.

 8        Q.   Now you said it was all right until war began and political

 9     leaders came and called people to rebel.  Do you know who came and told

10     the people to rebel?

11        A.   Well, they all came.  I don't know.  Mostly from Serbia.

12     Raskovic, this one, that one.  And then I did something there.  I worked,

13     and I didn't even know that the -- there was a Mr. Hadzic and Arkan.

14     They were saying that the police would attack and take the village and

15     expel all Serbs.  I was there.  I didn't want to go anywhere, and I

16     stayed with my parents.  And I thought I will fair the same way as they

17     did.  They will -- and I had always lived there for 30 years, and my

18     parents were in their 60s.

19             I never expected a war to break out.  It never occurred to me.

20     The people who had always lived in Tenja, the farmers, they had their

21     land, tractors.  They were hard-working people.  They didn't care about

22     things such as war and stuff.  But then those guys came and called on a

23     them to rebel and distributed weapons, and so on.  They had more land

24     than we did.  They lived better than we, so I don't know what -- for what

25     possible reason they could have decided to go to war.

Page 6680

 1        Q.   Now, let me go back to the beginning of the answer you gave us.

 2             You said that -- I worked, and -- and -- yeah.  You're talking

 3     about the beginning of the conflict.

 4             First of all, I'd like to ask you, you gave us a few names.  You

 5     said Raskovic, Hadzic, Arkan.

 6             First of all, who was Raskovic?

 7        A.   Raskovic was from Serbia.  He had a political party.  I don't

 8     know which party he was a leader of.  But, anyway, he also came there and

 9     spoke about rebellion and said that the police would attack the village

10     and drive all Serbs out and -- and such things.

11        Q.   Next, you mentioned Mr. Hadzic.  Who is Mr. Hadzic?

12        A.   Yes ... well, I guess he was the president of the SDS.  He also

13     came there and he was saying that the Ustashas would attack and take the

14     village and expel the Serbs, that the people should tighten their ranks

15     and defend the village.

16        Q.   Now, when -- when did these political leaders start coming to

17     Tenja?

18        A.   It was at some time in 1991, in June, July.  That's when they

19     started to come.

20        Q.   Now, you mentioned just a moment ago that Mr. Hadzic was the

21     president of the SDS and he also came there.  When did he come to Tenja?

22        A.   I don't remember the exact date.  I was in a labour unit, and I

23     saw a rally, and I asked a neighbour of mine, Mile, who that was, and he

24     said, Well, this one is Hadzic, and that's Arkan.  And I stayed a while,

25     but then I had to go to work.

Page 6681

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, where did you see Mr. Hadzic?

 2        A.   In front of the local commune.

 3        Q.   And your neighbour's name, you said, was Mile; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   How -- how did he refer to Mr. Hadzic?

 6        A.   Well, I didn't know who that was.  I had never known that man.

 7     But, well, just asked who it was, and he said, "That's Hadzic" or "The

 8     other is Arkan," whereas, I knew the others, Mile, Jajic; Bozo.  I knew

 9     them very well.  But I didn't know these guys.

10        Q.   Now you said that you saw him in front of the local commune

11     building.  How did you come about to be there?  You said that you were

12     working?  Can you explain to the Court how is it that you ended up in

13     front of the local commune building?

14        A.   Well, I worked right next to the local commune.  There was an

15     agricultural co-operative.  And I had to pass by the local commune coming

16     from home.  And this took place in front of the local commune.  They may

17     have continued to the soccer pitch later, but I saw them in front of the

18     local commune building.

19        Q.   Okay.

20             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Your Honours, I notice the time.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Demirdjian.

22             Mr. Knezevic, although you are only in court for 15 minutes, we

23     are here a little bit longer already, and we have our first -- our second

24     break to take, so we leave the courtroom for 30 minutes.  Come back at

25     1.00.

Page 6682

 1             The court usher -- the court usher will now escort you out of the

 2     courtroom.  Thank you.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Demirdjian.

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

10        Q.   Mr. Knezevic, before the break, you told us that you saw

11     Mr. Hadzic at a rally in Tenja.  Can you tell us how many people were

12     present at this rally?

13        A.   There were many villagers from Tenja.  Maybe 100 or 200 people.

14        Q.   And what was - if you were told - Mr. Hadzic's first name?

15        A.   My neighbour, Mile, told me that his name was Goran Hadzic.

16        Q.   Had you seen Goran Hadzic before that day?

17        A.   No, never.

18        Q.   On that day, can you describe to the Court what he looked like.

19        A.   Well, they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and he had a beard.

20        Q.   And, now you told us you stayed there for a while.  Can you tell

21     the Court how long you were observing this rally?

22        A.   I only stayed a couple of minutes.  I couldn't stay longer

23     because I had to report at the workplace.

24        Q.   Are you able to tell us how long did Mr. Hadzic speak.

25        A.   When I went in, it could all be heard in -- indoors too.  It went

Page 6683

 1     on rather long.  An hour maybe.

 2        Q.   How -- how far were you from Mr. Hadzic when you were observing

 3     the rally?

 4        A.   I was on the road, which was about 100 or 150 metres away.

 5        Q.   And how was Mr. Hadzic speaking to the crowd in front of him?

 6        A.   He was saying that the Ustashas, the police, the army, would

 7     attack Tenja, that they would take over the village, they should defend

 8     themselves, that they had enough weapons for that, the people should

 9     guard for the village for it to remain a Serbian village, and stuff.

10        Q.   You just told us you were on the road which is about 100 to 150

11     metres away.  How did you hear what Mr. Hadzic was saying?

12        A.   I heard because they had - what do you call it? - speakers.  They

13     had a PA system, so I heard every word.

14        Q.   And your neighbour - you said his name was Mile - where was he

15     exactly?

16        A.   Next to me.  He's my first-door neighbour.  His house is right

17     next to mine.

18        Q.   And when you say next to you, where was this, next to you?  Where

19     exactly were the both of you standing?

20        A.   By the road.  And they were by the entry to the local commune

21     building, where the staircase is.  They spoke in front of that building

22     and we were by the road.  And, later on, they moved to the soccer pitch,

23     but I left.  However, that's all very close.  Near the local commune

24     building and the farming co-operative where I had to report.

25        Q.   You just said a moment ago "they spoke in front of that

Page 6684

 1     building."  Who else spoke during this gathering?

 2        A.   That man, Jovo Rebraca.  Arkan didn't even speak.  He was there;

 3     I saw him.  And I saw him later when he passed by the street.

 4        Q.   Now, with respect to Jovo Rebraca, what did he say?

 5        A.   He also said that the village would defend itself, that the

 6     weapons had arrived and were being distributed.  I saw those weapons.  I

 7     saw the trucks from the barracks that -- the truck stopped in front of

 8     the houses of some people, and whoever was Orthodox got a weapon.  And I

 9     said, Can I get a weapon?  And he said, "No, you can't get one.  You're a

10     Croat."  But -- and I said, "Well, if everybody's defending the village,

11     I'll defend it too.  I'm also from here."  And they said, "No chance."

12        Q.   Who said, No, you can't get a weapon?

13        A.   A neighbour, Vlado, told me that I could also enlist with the

14     army.  And how do I refuse?  I wouldn't have faired well.  Then I went to

15     the police, that is their milicija, and said I also want to defend the

16     village, although I don't know from whom and why.  And then I was told,

17     "No, no, no.  You can't get any weapons.  You can do some work, be a

18     member of the work platoon, and that's it."

19        Q.   Now you said a moment ago that when Mr. Hadzic spoke he said that

20     they should defend themselves --

21        A.   Yeah.  To defend themselves from the police, the army, because

22     the Osijek police, the MUP guys, the Ustashas would attack the village,

23     so we must defend ourselves.  This must be Serbian because there's a

24     Serbian majority here and ... stuff.

25        Q.   Now --

Page 6685

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Demirdjian.

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  With regard to your previous question, who -- who

 4     said that the witness couldn't get a weapon?  I'm not sure that we got an

 5     answer to that question.

 6             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  And I noticed that at line -- page 58,

 7     line 8, my question should be recorded as "no, you can't get a weapon,"

 8     not "no, you want get a weapon."  "Can't" instead of "what."

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Overlapping speakers] ...

10             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

11        Q.   And with respect to the answer, Mr. Knezevic, you said -- you

12     responded to my question by saying:

13             "A neighbour, Vlado, told me that I could enlist..."

14             However, my question was who told you:  No, you can't get a

15     weapon?

16        A.   Their milicija.  That officer, the duty officer, a man I don't

17     know, who was at the entrance when I entered.  This used to be a clinic.

18     And I said I'm here to enlist because I also live here.  I want to defend

19     the village.  But then I was told I couldn't get weapons.  It was their

20     milicija.

21        Q.   With respect to Vlado, do you remember his last name?

22        A.   Vitanovic.

23        Q.   Very well.  And you told us a moment ago that you were -- you

24     heard that this subject of the Osijek police coming to attack Tenja was

25     discussed.  Did the Osijek police attack Tenja?

Page 6686

 1        A.   No, they didn't attack.  It was in the evening hours.  I don't

 2     know what happened.  Some people got killed and then candles should be

 3     lit so everybody sees -- everybody can tell which house is Croatian.

 4     Actually, it was after Borovo Selo where some police officers got killed.

 5     But I didn't want to light any candles, because, you know, after all,

 6     there was a Serbian majority in the village, and if they attacked from

 7     Osijek, people were supposed to light candles so that it can be clearly

 8     seen which house was Croatian, but I didn't want to.

 9             I saw people gathering, expecting an attack, and I said, I'll

10     stand in front of you so if they attack you, let them kill me as well.

11     And then people started going to the direction from which the attack was

12     expected, but nothing happened.

13        Q.   A moment ago you told us that you saw trucks stopping in front of

14     the houses of some people.  Do you remember whose houses this was?

15     You're talking about trucks -- sorry, go ahead.

16        A.   Serbian houses.  I don't know whose houses exactly.  Some of them

17     were also members of that army, and then a truck would drive up with

18     weapons, and the weapons were distributed -- it was Nemanja Subotinovic's

19     house, then Brano Vitanovic's.  That's my part of the village.  And

20     that's where the weapons were taken.

21        Q.   Very well.  Now, after this -- this gathering, this rally that

22     you saw, could you tell the Court what was the situation like in the

23     village of Tenja?

24        A.   The situation was very bad.  Real attacks started against Croats

25     who had remained, especially us.  This Bozo Vidakovic came and they were

Page 6687

 1     saying that my father had a pistol, that he should surrender it.  And I

 2     said, "Come on, he never had a pistol.  He only just returned from

 3     Germany."  He -- he retired.  And then Nikola Subotinovic said to father

 4     that nobody would touch him, that we were free to stay in our house.  But

 5     then he continued to attack, No, guys, you must surrender your TV, your

 6     phone, your fridge.  It will all be taken to the local commune --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please speak -- slow down and

 8     repeat.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The situation was very bad.  People

10     were saying that we had weapons --

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Knezevic, the interpreters ask that you speak

12     a little bit slower and perhaps a little bit more into the microphone so

13     that they can hear you and have the time to interpret.  Thank you.

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

15        Q.   Mr. Knezevic, I will go back to some aspects of the answer you

16     just gave us.

17             You said that Bozo Vidakovic came.  And then you also said that

18     you had to surrender your TV, your phone, your fridge, et cetera.  What

19     happened to your TV, your phone, your fridge, et cetera?

20        A.   He said to me that this was going to be taken to the local

21     commune.  And I said -- I brought a phone because I had two.  One was

22     upstairs; the other downstairs.  And I brought him one and he asked, "And

23     what about the other?"  And I said, "But I want to keep one so I can

24     speak on the phone."  He said, "No.  Bring me the other and don't let me

25     look for it."  And then I brought the second phone, too.

Page 6688

 1             On the other day, the next day, he came and said, Give us your

 2     TV.  We'll take it to the local commune.  And your freezer.  There was a

 3     power failure.  And we gave him that.  This was also loaded.  Then we

 4     went to my brother's house, my older brother's house who had fled before

 5     me.  Then we also loaded his things on the truck.  It was all taken to

 6     Milenko Vuksanovic's house.  And women went there and washed it and

 7     cleaned, and it was later taken to Serbia, which I didn't see, but I

 8     heard that this was what happened.  And the same happened with the things

 9     from Gudelj's house because they had left before.  And I was in the work

10     platoon, and I also went to Milenko's house for the things to be cleaned

11     before they were taken away.

12        Q.   Earlier I asked you what was the situation like after this --

13     this rally, and you explained to us what was the situation with the

14     Croats in the village.  Can you tell the Court what was the situation in

15     relation to movement and traffic in and around Tenja?

16        A.   The Croats couldn't go out at all.  They were in their houses.

17     They were waiting for Judgement Day and what happened.  I was in this

18     platoon so I could go out and dig and then if people got killed and I

19     went to work at the cemetery, then I also drove wheat to the silos,

20     things like that.  Quite simply, there were another few Croats who could

21     but older people could not leave their homes at all.  For example, my

22     father.  My aunt was driven out of her own home and brought to my home in

23     order for them to be able to loot her house.  I went to work in this work

24     platoon and then this Bozo would come at midnight and say, "You have to

25     go now."  When I would see him coming with a Yugo car, he took this man's

Page 6689

 1     Yugo car and then he drove around.  I mean, I couldn't go anywhere.  I

 2     just had to wait for him at home, and then he would provoke me and say

 3     that I should call Osijek, that I am calling Osijek saying what is

 4     happening, and he took away my telephones.  I mean, really.  Then --

 5     there was no reason for that.  And then my father, that he had a pistol,

 6     this and that.  They were taken Borovo to the prison there.  And then my

 7     mother started crying, this and that, and ...

 8        Q.   Just a second, Mr. Knezevic let me break this down a little bit.

 9             The last thing you said is:

10             "They were taken to Borovo to the prison there."

11             Who was taken to Borovo to the prison there?

12        A.   For example, those people whose parents stayed on a while they

13     went to Osijek.  Then they were taken to the prison in Borovo.

14             A lot of women stayed on, on their own to take care of their

15     houses.  And then they took them to the prison in Tenja.  That was the

16     prison in the cinema.  And from there they took them to Borovo.  But they

17     threatened my parents that they would take them away, and me and my

18     brother, that they would take him to school there to Serbia.  When I

19     heard that, that they would take him, then I talked to my father, and my

20     father said, If you can, do save him.  I asked my brother.  He stayed,

21     and I said, "Would you want to try to escape with me?"  And he said that

22     he would but he was afraid.  He had problems in school.  And then they

23     were saying there who was a Serb, who was a Croat, whatever.  And then I

24     went to see a man.  He is also a Serb.  And I said to him, "Who came to

25     me, who was attacking me, who was threatening me," and this man said to

Page 6690

 1     me, "Kill him."  And I said, "Kill him with what?"  I haven't even got a

 2     sling.

 3        Q.   Mr. Knezevic --

 4        A.   And then he said, "Come tomorrow --"

 5        Q.   Mr. Knezevic, we will come to this part of your testimony in a

 6     moment.  Let me just ask you a follow-up question to what you said

 7     earlier.  Earlier you told us that you had seen this army.  Can you tell

 8     us what armed forces you saw in Tenja?

 9        A.   In Tenja, there were all sorts of armies, mostly from Serbia.

10     The army of Vuk Draskovic, the army of Seselj, the JNA army, then -- I

11     don't know.  Also people came from Serbia brought in on trucks, masses of

12     them, brought to the co-operative, whatever.  I could not be on the work

13     platoon with the Serbs anymore, then they separated us, the Croats, and

14     then I was in this house where Seselj's people were upstairs and I was

15     downstairs.  Can you imagine how unpleasant it was for me.  I was so

16     scared.  They were shooting.  And then one of these Serb people from

17     Serbia, Seselj's Men, he said, "Why are you at war with Serbs?"  And I

18     said, "I don't know.  We're not at war.  Why would we touch them?  Nobody

19     is touching them."  And I said, "I see they live so well.  They live

20     better than we do in Serbia.  They have everything, good houses,

21     tractors, whatever."  And then he asked me what's the reason, "Why are

22     they at war with you?"  And I said I don't know what the reason is.  You

23     ask them.  And then this one man said that's because of Tudjman, the

24     Ustasha government, and so on.  Mostly because of that.  As for property,

25     they live better than Croats.

Page 6691

 1        Q.   Now you said that you were in a house where Seselj people were

 2     upstairs.  What were you doing in that house?

 3        A.   I had to report there every morning.  And then -- then they'd

 4     come to pick me up, these people who were in charge of the work platoon,

 5     and then they would tell us who would go where and do what.  Whatever.

 6        Q.   Now, you've mentioned this word "work platoon" a few times.  Can

 7     you tell the Trial Chamber what is this work platoon exactly?

 8        A.   There were Croats who couldn't get weapons, and then they had to

 9     be in the work platoon.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the end of

11     the sentence.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then we went to work, dig.  I dug

13     between two front lines where there was heavy fighting.  That's where

14     they brought me.  On the one side there was the Serb army and on the

15     other side the Croat army, and I was digging canals and whatever.  And I

16     said to this guy who was there, I think he was from Serbia, and then he

17     said, "Well, if they kill you, it's going to be your own people who kill

18     you."  And what could I do?  I kept quiet.  So I was digging there and

19     digging, and I cut grass, and fortunately I didn't get killed.  Snipers

20     are shooting, and I went to wherever they told me to go and I did what

21     they told me to do.  During the night, they'd make me go and carry some

22     kind of boxes, crates, near their defence line, and then I would leave it

23     there and go on.

24        Q.   Very well.  Before we continue, Mr. Knezevic, can I remind you to

25     slow down a little bit for the interpreters.  They need to translate it

Page 6692

 1     to me in English.  Thank you very much.

 2             You told us now that they told you to do these things.  Who's

 3     they?  Who told to you do this work?

 4        A.   That was Slavik, Pika [phoen].  They had restaurants before the

 5     war.  I don't know their names exactly.  Slavik and Pika.  They had

 6     restaurants.  They were our leaders.  They weren't fit for fighting, but

 7     then they were in charge of this.  And then they would say what was

 8     supposed to be done.  They would take me there, and then they would take

 9     me back, and so on.  And then, after working hours, I'd go home to get

10     some rest, and, no way, five minutes later, Boro with the Yugo, and says,

11     Off you go to work.  And then we cleaned some basements, got coal out of

12     them, I and some Bojcic.  Some civilians who were left, hiding there.

13     Whatever.

14        Q.   Now, do you know why they told you to do this work?

15        A.   I don't know.  I had to.  Do you understand that?  I cannot ask

16     why.  I was wondering why.  I don't know.  I had to work.

17        Q.   Now you told us that you had to report to this house where there

18     were Seselj's Men upstairs.  Do you know whose house this was?

19        A.   Serenko's [phoen] house.  They emptied it.  They threw things off

20     the balcony; furniture, everything.  Then they went upstairs, and we were

21     downstairs.  That's where we had these weapons and they put a mortar into

22     the yard and --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

24     last two sentences.  We believe the witness is not speaking clearly at

25     all.  Thank you.

Page 6693

 1             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 2        Q.   Mr. Knezevic, may I ask you to repeat the last part of your

 3     answer because the interpreters were not able to -- to catch what you

 4     said.  And please take your time to speak slowly.

 5             So you said that this was Serenko's house.  They emptied it.

 6     They threw things off the balcony; furniture.  Can you continue and

 7     repeat the last part of your sentence again.

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes, they threw all of that furniture off the balcony and

 9     then onto trailers and trucks.  Whatever was good, they kept, and the

10     rest that they broke, they threw out, so that everything would be clear

11     for Seselj's army to be there.

12        Q.   And can you tell us who was this Serenko?

13        A.   Serenko was a Croat who lived there and then left as soon as this

14     started.  He was afraid.  He left his house and went to Osijek.

15        Q.   Now earlier you told us that you saw a man who you were told was

16     Goran Hadzic in Tenja.  After this rally, did you see him again?

17        A.   I think I saw him another time.  He was passing by.  And then

18     Arkan was there passing through the village.

19        Q.   And what were they doing?

20        A.   Well, they were working, by the local commune, the command,

21     Tenja.  How should I know?

22        Q.   And how far were you from them when you saw them?

23        A.   They passed through my street.  They went from there, and I saw

24     them there, and I was just getting out to see what was happening, and I

25     saw them passing down my street.

Page 6694

 1        Q.   Were you able to hear what they are saying?

 2        A.   Not really, that they would be going and that they would break

 3     through the line to Osijek.  That they would get rid of the Croats there.

 4        Q.   At the beginning of your answer you said:  "Not really."  And

 5     then you told us that they would be going to Osijek, break through the

 6     line in Osijek.  How did you know this?  How did you know that this was

 7     discussed?

 8        A.   Well, I mean, this Mile Vukas, he came to see me practically

 9     every day.  He liked to drink brandy, and I'd give him brandy, and he'd

10     be drinking there at my place, and he would be putting questions to me.

11     And he said, Didn't you see Arkan came and they're going to attack Osijek

12     to break through the lines, liberate Osijek, whatever.

13        Q.   Who was Mile Vukas?

14        A.   He was my neighbour.  He went to school with me as well.  And

15     then he would see me, and later on, he stopped coming to see me when

16     people started getting killed.  I don't know ...

17        Q.   Now you said that he was your neighbour.  He went to school with

18     you.  What was his role or function or position in Tenja?

19        A.   He was in the army in Tenja.  He was a good fighter.  He went to

20     the biggest line to fight, Tenja towards Osijek.  He is the only one who

21     this old --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not exactly understand what

23     he had.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he was the only person who was

25     not afraid.  And then he would come to see me.  And then all these lines,

Page 6695

 1     he would talk to me about all of that, and things like that, what was

 2     going on, and so on.  Weapons.  I saw that his house was full of weapons.

 3     All sorts.

 4             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 5        Q.   Now you said that:  "He stopped come to see me when people

 6     started getting killed."

 7             When did people start getting killed?

 8        A.   The killing started when they went to attack, to liberate Osijek.

 9     That's when people were being killed.  They attacked Nova Tenja, cleansed

10     it from the Croats, Ustashas.  And then about six or seven of them got

11     killed.  And then I went to the cemetery out there to bury them.  I went

12     and dug these graves out there.  And then when they brought these people

13     who got killed, I saw that.  I saw them at the mortuary.  And I dug the

14     graves.  And then they said I shouldn't be there during the funeral, that

15     I should go home.

16             And then, after that funeral, I should report again, so I dug

17     that, and I went there and waited.  I thought somebody would come and

18     pick me.  And then I thought, well, let them not think that I don't want

19     to come, and I went out and I saw them coming back from the cemetery.

20             They had buried these people, and I saw them walking down the

21     road, these soldiers of theirs.  They knew me well.  And they said, Look

22     at this one.  What's he doing there?  When I heard that, I went inside,

23     closed the gate.  I didn't even go to cover all of that.  When things

24     quieted down, then they said that the digging had been completed and that

25     all of it had been covered.

Page 6696

 1        Q.   You said that this took place when they went to attack Osijek and

 2     that six or seven people got killed.

 3             Are you able to help us as to when, approximately, this was.

 4        A.   Well, it was sometime in August, I think, or July.  1991.

 5        Q.   Now, at the beginning of your testimony today, you said that

 6     there were five or 6.000 people leaving in Tenja and that 30 per cent of

 7     them, approximately, were of Croat background.  What happened to -- to

 8     the Croats in Tenja?

 9        A.   Well, most of them ran away to Osijek.  And then ... I don't

10     know, say, 10 per cent stayed behind in Tenja.  Then they were killed

11     too.  Taken away, I don't know where.  To this day, I don't know.

12             When I ran away, they killed my parents too.  My father and

13     mother and aunt.  I -- I ran away before that.  That day, when I came

14     from the work platoon, I came home, my father wasn't there.  And I asked

15     my mother, Where is my father?  And then she said, Bozo took him away.

16     Couldn't find him at all.

17             And I came on the tractor.  Big one.  Neighbour gave it to me.

18     And then I got my brother onto the tractor.  My mother stayed in the

19     house, and my aunt.  And I set out to bring some beans.  And at the line

20     where their army was, I stopped there, and most of them were neighbours,

21     and I said, I have to go and bring some beans.  And they knew me.  And

22     they said, Okay.  So, go.  And they saw my brother.  And then they said,

23     Why is he there?  And I said, He's coming with me.  And they said, All

24     right.  And then I turned off the road, to the left, not to go towards

25     the army.  The JNA was on the outskirts.  Actually, reserve --

Page 6697

 1     reservists.  Because the young ones had fled in the meantime.  And

 2     then --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the rest.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And then they stopped me by that

 5     line.  Again, where are you going?  And, I'm going to go and get some

 6     beans.  That's what I was told.  And then I went to this field where the

 7     beans were.  And I left the tractor there, the keys, the trailer,

 8     everything, and my brother.  And then all around to Osijek, through

 9     cornfields, orchards.  My brother stopped in the cornfields once and

10     started crying.  And he said, Let's go back.  And I said, There's no

11     going back now.  We can only go ahead.  And that is how I somehow

12     comforted him.  And then we got on to the other side where the Croatian

13     army was.  And that's where they saw me, and we put our hands up in the

14     air.  Because that is where JNA soldiers were running away too.  And then

15     I walked through some mines and then they got me to Osijek, my brother

16     and me.  Had I not left, they would have killed me.

17             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

18        Q.   Now just to clarify this part of your testimony.  When did this

19     take place that you -- you made it to the other side?

20        A.   That was sometime in September, the end of September.

21        Q.   Now let me bring you back to the time that you were in Tenja.

22             Are you familiar with a man by the name of Dragan Cugalj?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   What was his function or position in Tenja?

25        A.   His function was just like that of Bozo.  He pretended to take

Page 6698

 1     care of these civilians.  He didn't take care of them.  He maltreated

 2     them.  And he kicked my aunt out of her house.  She lived nearby there,

 3     and he kicked her out so that he could take the house.  That's what

 4     happened.

 5             Everything was thrown out of the house too.  I saw it scattered

 6     all over the yard.  And then also there was this one man, Marinko.  His

 7     mother stayed behind, and no one knows what happened to this day.  They

 8     took her to Serbia, to some prison there.  Some people say that she was

 9     thrown into the Danube.  So, to this day, no one knows.  And, as I said,

10     he was this main person from that part of Tenja.

11        Q.   When you say "main person," did he know what his function

12     or his -- did he have a position of some sort?

13        A.   Well, position.  Commander, like that Bozo --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the rest of

15     the sentence.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He took care, sort of.  Also

17     commander who went to people's houses and said what people were allowed

18     to do and what they were not allowed to do.  Things like that.

19             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

20        Q.   And you gave us an example here of, he -- he kicked your aunt out

21     of her house.  You mentioned also the -- this person named Marinko.

22             First of all, are you aware of which organisation this Dragan

23     Cugalj belonged to?

24        A.   That Serb organisation.  I think he was in this party of

25     Seselj's.  I guess.  I don't know.

Page 6699

 1        Q.   And did you see him during the time that you were in Tenja during

 2     the months of June, July, August?

 3        A.   Dragan?

 4        Q.   Yes.

 5        A.   I did see Dragan.

 6        Q.   How many times did you see him?

 7        A.   Well, I saw him, and once I was going to dig something, and then

 8     this water-pipe broke down, and then I went out there to dig for them,

 9     near them, out there.

10        Q.   And when you were out to dig this pipe, what was he doing?

11        A.   He went by.  He knew me.  I mean, I don't know where he was

12     going.  But, at any rate, he passed by.  He passed through that street.

13        Q.   Now, are you also familiar with a man named Savo Grkovic?

14        A.   Grkovic.  He was a policeman before the war.

15        Q.   And did you see him between the months of June and

16     September 1991?

17        A.   June and September?

18        Q.   Between.

19        A.   I cannot remember seeing him.  I know that he was in that police

20     of theirs, and I saw him about twice, and I didn't see him again.

21        Q.   Very well.  Are you familiar with a -- the postman of the local

22     commune in Tenja?

23        A.   Yes.  I know the postman.  He was killed too in his house.

24             Again, Bozo came to get me.  Again, that a pipe was broken and

25     that I should go and dig near that house so that the pipe could be fixed.

Page 6700

 1     And then he went to show this place to me where I was supposed to dig.

 2     And he went to this house, and the postman and I heard gun-shots,

 3     screaming, some kind of noise.  He walked out.  And there was somebody

 4     else there I didn't know, some soldiers, unshaven, I didn't know any of

 5     them.  And he got out, and he said, Medo Postar [phoen] is no longer

 6     there either.  So you could understand that way that the postman had been

 7     killed too.

 8        Q.   Can you just clarify the sentence.  You said:  "Medo Postar is no

 9     longer there."

10             Who is Medo Postar?

11        A.   His real name was Jozo.  He worked as a postman before the war.

12     That's what he did all the time.  He was on good terms with everybody,

13     and he thought that nobody would harm him.  So he stayed in his house,

14     like I did.

15        Q.   Very well.  Are you familiar with the Gudelj family?

16        A.   Yes, of course.  I know them well.

17        Q.   How did you know them?

18        A.   I know him from Tenja.  When he returned from Canada, my brother

19     went to school with his son.

20        Q.   And how many members were there in this family?

21        A.   Six or seven, I think.  His parents, his children, his wife,

22     brother.  Six or seven, I guess.

23        Q.   Did you know the name of the parents?

24        A.   I think his father's name was also Jozo.  And his mother, Mara.

25        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... can you tell the Court what

Page 6701

 1     happened to the Gudelj family?

 2        A.   Well, Gudelj fled to Osijek and left his parents behind.  I heard

 3     that they had been killed, hanged, and that it was done because of

 4     Gudelj, who was the president of the HDZ.  But they were, in fact, not

 5     hanged.  It turned out that they were alive.  His father was at Borovo in

 6     prison.  And I heard that he -- he had been beaten there, and ... that's

 7     what I heard.

 8        Q.   Now, Gudelj, the son who you said fled to Osijek, did you see

 9     him?  Did there come a time when you saw him?

10        A.   I saw him before the war broke out, before people couldn't leave

11     or enter Tenja.  He was a reserve policeman.  And he kept guard at one of

12     the points of entry.

13        Q.   Now, you told us a moment ago that his -- his father was taken

14     to -- to Borovo in -- in prison.  Did the son inquire about his father?

15        A.   The son inquired.  There was some talks.  That man Kir came from

16     Osijek.  And then Mirko Tubic, and then Knezevic, I forget his first

17     name, and another by the name of Grbungija [phoen].  They went to Tenja

18     to negotiate, and, from there, they went to Osijek.  They wanted to calm

19     the situation to avoid a war.

20             They would come to Tenja, talk, and return to Osijek.  And Gudelj

21     allegedly stopped Mirko and asked him, Where is my father?  And the

22     one -- and the other replied harshly, What do I care about your father?

23     And they went away.  And when they were returning from Osijek, Gudelj

24     wanted to ask again, but they never stopped.  And he opened fire, killing

25     Kir, Knezevic, and wounding Grbungija.

Page 6702

 1        Q.   Now how do you know about -- originally you told us there was

 2     this Mirko Tubic, Knezevic and that the Gudelj, the son, stopped Mirko

 3     and asked him, Where is my father?  How do you know about this?

 4        A.   I was still at Tenja.  It was in the early days.  At that time,

 5     it was still possible to leave and enter.  I wanted to take out a

 6     reservation for my father to go to Germany, and I was on a motorbike, so

 7     I saw him.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So you were on a motorbike and you say you saw him.  What

 9     you did see exactly?

10        A.   I saw the reserve police -- or police on the line there.  They

11     were keeping the line for defence, or something.

12        Q.   And coming back to my question, how did you know that Gudelj was

13     asking about his father?

14        A.   People told me.  A man who was there actually told me that he had

15     inquired about his parents and the other didn't want to say anything.

16     When they returned, they didn't stop, and that's why this one opened

17     fire.

18        Q.   So let me just get this clear.  This is what people told you?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   I'd like to show you a video at this time.

21             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  We would need to go into Sanction.  And it's 65

22     ter 4809.10 at tab 12.

23             Yes, we can play the video.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] ... well, we established

Page 6703

 1     contact" --

 2             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

 3        Q.     Before we continue playing this video, are you able to tell us

 4     who is on the screen now.

 5        A.   Goran Hadzic.

 6        Q.   Now earlier, if you remember, you told us that you saw him once

 7     at this rally and another time in the street.  Did you have an

 8     opportunity to see him on other occasions?

 9        A.   No, I never saw him later.  Not in person.

10        Q.   You say you didn't see him in person.  Did you see him in any

11     other way?

12        A.   On TV.

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Very well we can continue playing.

14        Q.   And please listen carefully to what's being said.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] ... right after the first arrests,

17     in order to conduct an exchange of prisoners.  They answered, literally,

18     actually, Branimir Glavas did feed them, as long as you have food, and

19     when you run out, kill them.  Having in mind how we look upon our people

20     who are imprisoned, we couldn't understand that.  With regard to my

21     experience with the Ustasha regime, it is very sad, and I don't want to

22     be remembered of it now.  But I realise that there was no democracy in

23     that state or any possibility to tell the truth.  Concerning the murder

24     of Josip Kir, after the murder of Kir, who was killed by Gudelj, the

25     president of the HDZ in Tenja, our Territorial Defence from Tenja

Page 6704

 1     apprehended Gudelj's parents.  So, after the murder of Kir, they were

 2     taken to the prison in Borovo Selo.  They were fed and nursed there, so

 3     to speak, since his father is seriously ill and was even taken to

 4     hospital for an examination.  They will, I don't know exactly if they

 5     are -- already are, but they will surely be released, regardless of the

 6     current situation with this exchange of prisoners.  Because they aren't

 7     prisoners in the true meaning of the word.  They're civilian captives.

 8     And they are the sole -- the only civil prisoners, unlike the situation

 9     with the Ustashas who can actually arrest only civilians.  They haven't

10     captured any one of our fighters.  I don't know if any fighter with

11     weapons was ever captured, apart from the first moments of attack on

12     Borovo Selo ..."

13             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:

14        Q.   Mr. Knezevic, you heard here a reference to the Gudelj family and

15     about the parents being apprehended.  What can you tell us about the fact

16     that the parents were apprehended?

17        A.   Yes, the parents were apprehended and taken to the prison at

18     Borovo.  The father, that is.  He was also beaten there.  But I didn't

19     hear anything about them being fed and nursed.  I mean, I heard stories,

20     but I really don't know that they were fed and nursed.  I did hear,

21     however, that they were beaten.  I heard of that afterwards.

22        Q.   Now, when did you hear that they were beaten?

23        A.   When I left.  When I came from Tenja.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE: [Previous translation continues] ...

25     Mr. Zivanovic.

Page 6705

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry?

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Our transcript doesn't run, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your transcript doesn't run.  Well, it is about

 5     that time.

 6             I have one clarification question, Mr. Demirdjian.

 7             The entire part in the record, translation or interpretation of

 8     what is said in the video-clip --

 9             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- is all that one person speaking?

11             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  That is my understanding, yes.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So it's not question/answer.  It's one person

13     speaking, and that would be the person we have at that moment --

14             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.  Yes, Your Honours --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- on the screen.

16             MR. DEMIRDJIAN:  Yes.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Knezevic, this is the end of the hearing for today.  You are

19     not released as a witness.  You'll have to come back tomorrow at 9.00

20     when we will finish your testimony so that you will be able to go home

21     tomorrow.

22             Saying that you're not released as a witness means that you

23     cannot discuss your testimony with anyone, and it also means that you

24     cannot speak to any of the parties.  Under any circumstances, you cannot

25     speak to any of the parties before you finish your testimony.

Page 6706

 1             Do you understand?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you very much.  The court usher will escort

 4     you out the court.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           [The witness stands down]

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 8                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of July,

10                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.