1 Thursday, 12 September 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
7 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
11 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Muireann Dennehy;
15 Case Manager, Thomas Laugel; legal intern, Simona Onicel.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, and our legal intern,
20 Maria Jellinek.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 Could we go into closed session, please.
23 [Closed session]
11 Pages 8528-8529 redacted. Closed session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness move
21 closer to the microphones and speak up.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Witness -- Ms. Dennehy, do we have a
23 pseudonym sheet?
24 MS. DENNEHY: Yes, Mr. President. It's tab 1, 65 ter 6493.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have it on the screen, please.
1 Madam Witness, on the screen in front of you, you see an
2 information sheet with your name and your date of birth. Could you ...
3 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you please confirm that this information is
5 correct? No errors in there?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 Madam Witness, I will now, in a minute, ask you to make the
9 solemn declaration, by which witnesses commit themselves to tell the
10 truth. I have to point out to you that, by doing so, you expose yourself
11 to the penalties of perjury should you give false or untruthful
12 information to the Tribunal.
13 Could you stand up for a moment, please, and read out loud the
14 solemn declaration the usher will give you.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: GH-085
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. You may be seated again.
20 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President. May I ask that the
21 65 ter 6493 be tendered into evidence under seal, please.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked under seal.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 6493 will be Exhibit P2991,
24 under seal.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you. Your witness, Ms. Dennehy.
1 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Examination by Ms. Dennehy:
3 Q. Good morning, Madam Witness. Can you hear me in a language that
4 you understand?
5 A. Yes, I can.
6 Q. Madam Witness, as Mr. President has explained, you have the
7 protective measure of pseudonym in this case and therefore I will only
8 refer to you as Madam Witness during your testimony.
9 Madam Witness, do you recall giving a statement to
10 representatives of the Tribunal in February 1996?
11 A. Yes, I recall.
12 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that tab 3, that's 65 ter 2241.1,
13 be shown to the witness but not be broadcast.
14 Q. Madam Witness, do you recognise the document in front of you to
15 be the statement that you gave in February 1996?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And do you recognise the signature at the bottom left-hand corner
18 of the first page of that document?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And before testifying here today, did you have an opportunity to
21 review this statement in your own language?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And when you reviewed that statement, you indicated that there
24 were a number of corrections. I'd now like to bring you to those.
11 Page 8533 redacted.
6 Q. Now moving to the next paragraph, 19, at line 1, it says:
7 "When I came to Sid, we were taken to the border."
8 Would you like to make a correction to that particular section of
9 the sentence?
10 A. Yes. We were not taken to the border. We stopped at Sid.
11 Later, I realised that we were some 20 metres from the police station.
12 Q. And in relation to the word "we" in that case, who was taken to
13 the border?
14 A. All other persons captured at Opatovac went to the border. And I
15 mean only the Croats. Whoever was not Serbian was expelled from
16 Opatovac. The women were taken to the border on that truck.
17 Q. Now at paragraph 23, it says:
18 "During my stay at Begejci camp between the 2nd of October,
20 What date should that be corrected to?
21 A. It's not the 2nd, but the 26th of October.
22 Q. And now the final correction. At paragraph 21 and 22, you refer
23 to Captain Zoric -- excuse me, Zivkovic. Would you like to make a
24 correction to that name?
25 A. Zivkovic and Zivanovic, that's the same person. It's been
1 20 years, so some of us remember him as Zivkovic. Others as Zivanovic.
2 Q. Now, Madam Witness, that you have made those corrections, if I
3 were to ask you the same questions as you were asked in February 1996, in
4 principle, would you give the same answers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now that you've taken the solemn declaration, do you affirm the
7 truthfulness and the accuracy of your statement?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. DENNEHY: Your Honours, at this time the Prosecution tenders
10 65 ter 2241.1 under seal. And 65 ter 2241.2 is the publicly redacted
11 version of this document.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 2241.1 will be Exhibit P2992,
14 under seal. And 65 ter 2241.2 will be Exhibit P2993, public.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MS. DENNEHY:
17 Q. Madam Witness, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you describe the
18 HDZ rallies in Vukovar. What was your involvement in those rallies in
19 Vukovar at the time?
20 A. It was my duty to keep law and order as member of the monitor
21 force of the HDZ. So, in other words, I was like -- like a bouncer,
23 Q. And did you ever shoot a weapon during the armed conflict in the
24 former Yugoslavia?
25 A. Shoot? What?
1 Q. Did you ever participate in armed -- the armed conflict in the
2 former Yugoslavia?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, at paragraphs 7 and 8 of your statement, you describe the
5 surrender of your village Opatovac to the JNA. How long did the regular
6 JNA soldiers spend in Opatovac?
7 A. From 9.00 a.m. until about 2.00 p.m.
8 Q. So they spent approximately five hours there; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And after the JNA soldiers had left Opatovac, what kind of
11 soldiers remained in the village?
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy, just one moment, please. Could we
13 go into private session for a moment?
14 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
2 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
3 MS. DENNEHY:
4 Q. Madam Witness, if I can ask you again, what kinds of soldiers
5 remained in the village after the JNA soldiers had left?
6 A. The Serbian reservists entered the village together with the JNA.
7 They wore JNA uniforms, but they had the Chetnik symbols, the cockades,
8 on their heads.
9 Q. And how did those Serbian reservists that you've just described
10 treat you and the other villagers?
11 A. They were very brutal.
12 Q. You describe in your statement the curfew that was in place at
13 the village. Why did some of the houses have to keep their doors
15 A. Probably so that the reservists could enter at any time of day or
16 night. And their police too.
17 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, if I may go into private session
18 very momentarily. This is out of an abundance of caution.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
20 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MS. DENNEHY:
1 Q. Madam Witness, at paragraph 16 and 17, you describe when you were
2 taken to Sid on the 24th of October, 1991. What were you and the other
3 non-Serbs required to do before boarding the truck?
4 A. That morning, they called on us to come down in front of the
5 Dom Kulture as soon as possible. A desk was placed there. Many
6 reservists and policemen were standing around it, and we had to sign the
7 already-prepared document that we were leaving all our property to the
8 SAO Krajina, including our houses, in any case. We had to do that. I
9 refused to sign it, and the same man, Mundjara, pushed me towards the
10 desk and I had to do it.
11 Q. Now, after -- before I go on, did you sign the document?
12 A. Yes, yes. As I said, I -- I had to. I did sign it.
13 Q. After you signed the document, the truck departed the village and
14 went to Sid, what happened when you arrived at Sid?
15 A. Upon entry in Sid, the truck stopped. They lifted the tarpaulin
16 and a man in uniform approached the truck. It was a reservist of the
17 Serbian army or, rather, two reservists, two policemen. I recognised one
18 of them -- actually two, Zeljko Marjanovic and Lazo Tanasic.
19 Q. Where did this truck stop when it arrived in Sid?
20 A. We had already entered Sid. Now what section of Sid it was, I
21 couldn't tell you exactly. I just know that it was close to the police
22 station in Sid because, later on, they took me to this police station.
23 Q. And later, when you were first brought to the police station,
24 where exactly, what part of the police station, were you brought to?
25 A. As we were entering, it was a small yard first and then a big
1 hall. To the right, was the entry leading down to the basement, which I
2 learned later on. On the left-hand side were the offices. This was also
3 something I learned later on.
4 Q. You said that there was an entry leading down to the basement.
5 Were you brought to the basement?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And what happened when you were brought there?
8 A. Two female policemen arrived, policewomen, that is to say, in
9 green uniforms and white belts with pistols, and two reservists with
10 them. (redacted)
11 (redacted). There were three pillars, I had to stand next to
12 one of them and undress completely until I was stark naked. Then they
13 checked us out and frisked us to find if we had nothing on ourselves,
14 like weapons or anything.
15 After this inspection, we put our clothes on and they returned us
16 to a hall where there were benches and we had to sit there with our heads
17 bent low, facing the floor, and with our hands on our backs.
18 Q. At paragraph 19 of your statement, you say that the prisoners
19 were tortured. Can you please describe the sounds that you heard coming
20 from the basement of the police station in Sid?
21 A. They took people to the basement, the Croatian prisoners,
22 including myself, and they beat them up. That was normal. With batons.
23 Because I saw the policemen going down there, going down to the basement,
24 and they were carrying batons in their hands and we heard cries, Ouch,
25 ouch. It was very close by so one could hear those screams and moans.
1 And as they were returned from the basement, we could see that they were
2 crying, and they would be holding their heads or the shoulder, wherever
3 they had been hit.
4 Q. In your statement, you describe a man from Bapska. Can you
5 describe for the Court how he looked when you first saw him enter the
6 police station?
7 A. When the door of the hall opened at one point, a blond, young man
8 who was of average height entered in. They had cut off a part of his ear
9 and he was all covered in blood, which shocked us. As the door opened.
10 We just looked automatically and we were utterly shocked. He sat down on
11 the bench next to us. He still was still bleeding and we did not dare to
12 keep looking at him. He was probably then taken to an infirmary, and he
13 later returned with his head bandaged.
14 Q. Mrs. Witness, I'd now like to move on to your time at the Begejci
15 camp. Can you please describe what you saw when you arrived at Begejci?
16 A. As usual. It was something like a big country estate with a
17 fence and a guard, who was a reservist. He opened the gate for the car
18 that brought me and another two people. The car was a old Zastava car
19 with the letters "police" on it and the driver was dressed in a police
20 uniform. Next to him sat another reservist also in a police uniform and
21 the three of us were sitting on the back seat. So the car entered within
22 the perimeter which was fenced off with three rows of barbed wire.
23 Q. You've just described that the camp was fenced off with three
24 rows of barbed wire. How high was the camp fence?
25 A. It was certainly 3 or 4 metres. I couldn't tell you exactly, but
1 in any case, it was certainly 2 metres higher than a man's height. 3 or
2 4 metres or more. Nobody could jump over it. It was really very high.
3 And there was a guard's post every 2 metres. Behind it, you could see a
4 guard with a gun and a big dog, a German shepherd dog, so the man, the
5 dog and the rifle.
6 Q. And where were you brought to when you arrived at Begejci first?
7 A. I got out of the car. I was met by this Captain Zivkovic or
8 Zivanovic. He took me to an office. The door said "police station." I
9 got inside and they interrogated me while the other two remained in the
10 car. I don't know -- I didn't know what was going on with them, until I
11 got out again.
12 Q. Madam Witness, you mentioned the name of the man who interrogated
13 you. I don't believe it was recorded on the transcript. Can you say his
14 name again, please.
15 A. He was Mr. Zivkovic. He was a captain and the commander of the
16 camp. Later on, a major also came there whose name I don't know, but I
17 could see his rank because they were uniformed. So judging by the ranks
18 I could see, and in the camp they introduced themselves to us. They
19 would say, I'm Major so-and-so, I'm Captain Zivkovic, I'm the head of the
20 camp. And we remembered them by this.
21 Q. And earlier you told us that the name Zivkovic and Zivanovic were
22 used interchangeably; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. But it's one and the same person. Some remember him as
24 having the last name Zivanovic, and the others remember him as Zivkovic.
25 Q. What clothes were you ordered to change into when you arrived at
2 A. They offered me a JNA uniform, green trousers and a green jacket.
3 I refused which made them angry, of course, because I had warm, black
4 trousers on and I asked them to allow me to keep them, because it was
5 really cold. It was November.
6 Q. And moving on now to went you entered the stable building. What
7 did you see when you entered there first?
8 A. I was shocked. People were standing -- or, rather, lying in
9 rows, like sardines, and all of them had their heads covered by blankets.
10 They took me all the way to the end, to the wall, three reserve
11 policemen, Vojo, Zare --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the third name.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard their names later. When
14 they brought me to the wall they told me to turn to face them and I
15 thought, Now they will surely kill me. However, and thank God, that did
16 not happen.
17 MS. DENNEHY:
18 Q. Madam Witness, the interpreters didn't quite catch the third name
19 that you mentioned. You mentioned Vojo, Zare, and what was the name of
20 the third?
21 A. Borko.
22 Q. Where were you ordered to lie in the stable when you first
23 entered there? You've just told us you were brought to the end, but who
24 did you lie next to?
25 A. They pushed a man. He got up. I was shocked when I saw that he
1 was alive. It was a policeman, a Croatian prisoner, and then he told a
2 woman who was there to move so that I could lie down next to a man, which
3 was even more humiliating.
4 Q. Now I'd like to move on to the work that took place at the camp.
5 What work were you and the other detainees required to do?
6 A. We had to go to the wood, to collect wood. In the morning, after
7 the role call, a reservist would come to the stable, to the wire, and
8 then say, Run, run. As I am running, he would run after me and he kept
9 hitting me with a truncheon on my head, my back, my legs, wherever he
10 could. While we were running, we would reach the command building where
11 it said "police." They would order to us stand in a line there, and then
12 they would take us to the forest followed by armed reservists who had
13 huge beards and they carried those bullets on their chests. I'm not sure
14 how exactly that is called. They were armed to the teeth. And the
15 policemen, Borko, Vojo and Zare, were also there. They had white
16 shoulder straps and belts and pistol holsters. They were not using their
17 pistols. So that's how they looked. It was really frightening.
18 After that, we would go to the woods. After every 2 metres there
19 was a reservist standing with a dog and a rifle, and as we went deeper
20 into the wood, they would hit us, the soldiers who were standing guard
21 duty there with the dogs. We went to the woods, collected wood, then
22 brought it back, and they hit me in the same manner. Not just me but
24 The second time as I was going back, I thought that I would -- I
25 had collected light wood, that I would have to collect something heavier,
1 and perhaps then they wouldn't hit me. However, the same thing was
2 repeated. They kept hitting us.
3 On the following day, a prisoner who was going before me was all
4 bloody because when they hit him, they cracked his head. And towards the
5 end I threw the wood, I ran to the office, and called the major, Major,
6 Comrade Major, a man is bleeding copiously. And he got out - that was
7 Stjepan Milas - and he took Milas inside, they bandaged his head and they
8 stopped the bleeding. And I continued with the work.
9 Q. How often were you and the other detainees required to work in
10 the woods?
11 Sorry, I'd like to repeat my question. I believe it wasn't
12 included on the transcript. How often, Madam Witness, were you and the
13 other camp detainees required to work?
14 A. I had to do it only three or four times. But each day some of
15 the male prisoners was taken. It depended on the amount of wood that was
16 necessary. They would go. Because they got their heating from the wood,
17 their offices and their bedrooms, where the police were, all of that.
18 Q. Madam Witness, I'd now like to show you a document.
19 MS. DENNEHY: Can I please ask that 65 ter 2916.5 be shown but
20 not be broadcast, please.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, can counsel repeat the number,
23 MS. DENNEHY: Of course, 65 ter 2916.5. That's tab 8 of the
24 Court's bundle.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, e-court doesn't find the document
1 under that number.
2 MS. DENNEHY: I apologise, Madam Registrar. It has now been
3 released. It was loaded to e-court but not yet released. Shall I
4 read -- the 65 ter again is 2916.5.
5 Can I instead show another document? That is 65 ter 6414. I
6 believe the document's now ready to be shown.
7 Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Q. Madam Witness, the document in front of you is not being
9 broadcast. Do you recognise the document in front of you?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. And do you recognise the signature at the bottom of that
13 A. I recognise it. It's my signature.
14 MS. DENNEHY: Can we scroll to page 2 of this document, please.
15 Q. Madam Witness, a name on this document that I won't mention is
16 circled. Can you please tell the Court why that name is circled.
19 Q. Madam Witness, you circled other names in the document. Why did
20 you circle those names?
21 A. I recognised those names of women and men who were with me in
23 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders under seal
24 65 ter 2916.5.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked under seal.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 2916.5 will be Exhibit P2994, under
3 MS. DENNEHY: I would now like to go into private session.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 8548-8552 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
9 MS. DENNEHY:
10 Q. Madam Witness, you were exchanged on the 10th of December, 1991.
11 And you said in your statement that you promised you would go back to the
12 Vukovar area. Why have you not returned to Vukovar?
13 A. I did return to Vukovar. We renovated the house and we tried to
15 that we had left behind. Neither do now the same people live there
16 because many people were killed or went missing. Their -- their parents
17 grew older and the children grew up, and I like those children, but they
18 weren't -- they and me aren't company. And, besides, the economic
19 situation is bad. There's much unemployment. It's a difficult life
20 there. And our friends, our Serbian friends, have now greater rights
21 than we Croats, and that's painful to me because I want everybody to have
22 the same rights.
23 Q. Madam Witness, do you have any children?
24 A. Yes. I left that out talking about the camp. I was two and a
25 half months pregnant when the reservists entered my village and took me
1 to Sid and, from there, to Begejci. I spent two months at Begejci; after
2 the exchange, four and a half; after that, I gave birth to a healthy son,
3 who is now a law student in the second year. Thank God. And God saved
4 me when I was giving birth, I focussed on the child, and now I'm very
5 happy to have him. The happiest mother in the world.
6 My husband and I knew that I was two and a half months pregnant
7 when I had to leave, and in the camp I had lost much weight so the
8 reservists didn't know that I was pregnant. Many inhabitants of Vukovar,
9 when I returned --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what she said
11 before ...
12 MS. DENNEHY:
13 Q. Madam Witness, the interpreters can't quite hear you. Could
14 you -- the last we received of your testimony was:
15 "Many inhabitants of Vukovar, where I returned -- when I
16 returned," apologies. Could you just repeat what you said after that,
18 A. When I returned to Vukovar, I was asked, Is it possible that you
19 survived the camp and the beatings and the mistreatment? Because they
20 had heard from other camp inmates what had been going on. And I said,
21 Yes, I survived. Man is stronger than steel.
22 Q. Madam Witness, you said that you were pregnant while at the camp.
23 How has your relationship with your son been affected by your detention
24 in Begejci?
25 A. No -- or, actually, I don't understand what you're asking. What
1 do you mean?
2 Q. How did your detention change the way that you view your son and
3 your relationship with him?
4 A. It didn't affect it much. I would be proud of my child and happy
5 even if I hadn't gone through all that. When a woman is pregnant and
6 needs the greatest possible care, I was going through that ordeal.
7 That's why I'm even more proud of having been able to give birth to a
8 healthy child without any consequences.
9 Q. Thank you, Madam Witness.
10 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, that concludes my evidence in-chief.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Ms. Dennehy.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: I see the time.
14 Madam Witness, we'll take a break of 30 minutes now. We'll come
15 back at 11.00. The court usher will escort you out of the courtroom.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
19 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.
22 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours.
23 Before the witness is brought in, I have an unrelated matter,
24 unrelated to this witness, that I wanted to raise, and I want to
25 apologise in advance to Your Honours and to the Defence because it's
1 somewhat of a late application.
2 We've got -- I think the Chamber may have the impression, and it
3 would be correct, that we've encountered a number of scheduling
4 difficulties as we try to work on these last (redacted)
11 (redacted). We
12 understand the Chamber is not stridently opposed to hearing evidence ...
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Can we go into closed session for one -- private
14 session for one minute.
15 [Private session]
23 [Open session]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
1 MR. STRINGER: And so the application is, with the Chamber's
2 permission, to postpone GH-169 until a later time.
3 Now, this is the witness who is scheduled to begin his testimony
4 after the current witness. He is here. Our problem -- there are a
5 couple of problems, but the primary one for us is that, as we saw with
6 the previous witness, Mr. Olmsted, who will be leading this witness's
7 evidence, won't be able to be here for what is now going to be clearly
8 the entirety of this witness's evidence and I think that has an impact on
9 witnesses. The Prosecution doesn't like to do it like that. We don't
10 like to begin with one lawyer and then have another lawyer have to step
11 in to do a re-direct or for part of the cross-examination, and that's
12 what's going to have to happen with GH-169.
13 And so we could -- to be completely transparent about it, we
14 could proceed with GH-169. It would be our strong preference at this
15 point, since it looks like we are going now into the month of October, to
16 bring the witness back and have him testify under what, for us, are the
17 better conditions, both for the witness and -- and for the Prosecution.
18 That would mean that we would not sit today, Mr. President, after
19 the witness is over. Next Tuesday, we have GH-061. It's not a full-day
20 witness; probably a session, maybe into the second session. And then
21 Wednesday next week we would go into GH-063. We can't begin him any
22 earlier because his arrival is regulated.
23 And so we're in the Chamber's hands, I understand. I don't know
24 if the Defence has an issue with it, but that would be our application.
25 We think it would just be better and cleaner for us to bring 169 back at
1 a later time.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
3 Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We have no position, Your Honours.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: The request is granted, Mr. Stringer. So you may
7 act accordingly.
8 MR. STRINGER: Much appreciated, Your Honour. Thank you.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: The witness may be brought in.
10 MR. STRINGER: Do we need to move into closed session -- oh, I'm
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't think so.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, cross-examination.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Zivanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, madam. My name is
18 Zoran Zivanovic. I am Goran Hadzic's Defence attorney in this trial.
19 A. Pleased to meet you.
20 Q. I read your statement. You probably have it before you or are
21 about to see on the screen. The number is 2241.
22 Let me first ask you --
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy.
24 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, may I ask that not to be broadcast.
25 I didn't hear Defence counsel say that. I just wish to protect this
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: You're right, Ms. Dennehy. Thank you.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah, yeah.
4 Q. [Interpretation] In your statement, you mention that on the
5 30th of May, 1990, became an active member of the Croatian Democratic
6 Community. What does that mean, active member of the HDZ?
7 A. It means that I voluntarily joined the Croatian Democratic
8 Community. What Croatian Democratic Community means. To my mind, it
9 stands for all citizens living in Croatia, which then belonged to
10 Yugoslavia, should be equal.
11 Q. I was interested in the word "active," what exactly it means.
12 A. It's not important.
13 Q. Please explain the following. You said here that you were a
14 member of the monitors or the order force. What were the tasks of that
16 A. At the public rally in Vukovar, when the HDZ for the first time
17 presented itself publicly on Franjo Tudjman Square as it is called
18 today -- you know how it goes at rallies. People gather and there were
19 those iron fences. And outside of those fences, many Serbs who lived in
20 Vukovar were standing and, of course, they protested. And I, as a HDZ
21 member, had a band on my sleeve. That can be seen on the recording too.
22 I was saying to them, Please move away, and they were free to protest
23 outside of that perimeter.
24 Q. You say normally they protested. Why do you think that was
1 A. Well, you know, probably our programme -- they didn't like our
2 programme. But how am I to know why they protested?
3 Q. Can you explain why the police wasn't at that rally to preserve
4 law and order?
5 A. It's the same as with any other rally. When the Serbian party
6 had its rally, they also had a militia or peacekeeping force.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I see your question is, or was --
8 can you explain why the police wasn't at that rally. Do we know whether
9 the police was at that rally or not?
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, no. But I see that it was done by -- by the
11 service of HDZ, of their service. So I -- I suppose that there was no
12 police, but just --
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's ask the witness.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Okay.
15 Q. [Interpretation] Do tell us if there was police on that square?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You say that you were removing people who were protesting from
18 the fence. Why didn't the police do that?
19 A. Well, they did too. But I, as a voluntary member of the HDZ, I
20 wanted to help. I quoted my words and remember very well what I said:
21 Please move away so that the programme can go on. Because they made a
22 lot of noise.
23 Q. From this sentence, I see that you did that at a number of
24 rallies, not just the one in Vukovar in 1990. Can you tell us where else
25 and when you did that?
1 A. No, I never did that again. Only in Vukovar.
2 As for HDZ rallies, I went there proudly, to our villages such as
3 Tovarnik, Lovas, Opatovac, wherever necessary.
4 Q. In other words, this is an error in your statement. I think that
5 you can see it, where it says:
6 During the rallies, for example, Vukovar, in 1990, I was keeping
7 order as a member of the HDZ police.
8 A. That's right. Someone calls it police, someone calls it the law
9 and order keeping service. But what else is police supposed to do than
10 keep law and order?
11 Q. You also said that some rallies were held at the Dom Kulture in
12 Opatovac, so what I'd like to know is what was the subject of these
13 meetings held at the Dom Kulture in Opatovac?
14 A. The subject was what attracted me to join the Croatian Democratic
15 Union; namely, that in Croatia we would all be treated equally, all
16 people, regardless of the ethnicity or nationality who we belonged to.
17 All people would be treated equally and would have a good life.
18 If the Serbian side had presented such a programme to me at the
19 time, I would have joined it. I would have defended -- or if I had been
20 in Germany, I would have defended Germany in the same manner, and I would
21 want good for all people so that everyone would live well.
22 Q. And what wasn't good up until then, in your view, what needed to
23 be corrected or to be set right by the HDZ?
24 A. What needed to be set right. Well, I think that there was a lot
25 of torture. (redacted)
2 Yugoslavia. But particularly in Vukovar, the head of the hospital was a
3 Serb. The principal in school was a Serb. The director of the police, a
4 Serb. And the servants, or like servants, it was always the Croats at
5 lower positions. We seemed to be the servants. And, of course, we were
6 dissatisfied with smaller salaries, worse conditions. We wanted to have
7 better conditions in our lives.
8 Q. You said that you had the honour to contact Branimir Glavas,
9 Tomislav Mercep and one Mr. Gilja. Can you tell us according to the
10 information that you had, what were they doing at the time in Vukovar and
11 the surrounding area?
12 A. They were representing the -- actually introducing there the HDZ
13 programme which implied a better future for the people.
14 Q. Are you perhaps aware that some of them may have been accused of
15 some crimes or even convicted?
16 A. Yes, I am aware now, today I am, that Branimir Glavas and Mercep
17 have been indicted unfortunately. And I say "unfortunately." This is
18 implied. They wanted good to everyone, all the people, and I don't
19 believe in the accusations and the charges that are leveled against them.
20 This is my opinion as an ordinary citizen.
21 Q. Do you know if any sentences were passed?
22 A. I don't know. I watch it on TV sometimes. I see it in the news,
23 but I wouldn't know the details.
24 Q. Please tell me, after you left the camp in Begejci, the prison in
25 Begejci, that was towards the end of 1991.
1 A. The 10th of December, 1991. I shall never forget the date
2 because that was when I was reborn.
3 Q. I wanted to ask you, once you arrived Croatia and you stayed
4 there later, it was just that later on that you returned to Opatovac, did
5 you -- the Croatian authorities ever invite you to say and tell about
6 everything that was going on in Opatovac and later on, for example, in
7 Sid and in Begejci? Do you have any opportunity to tell that to any
8 official organs?
9 A. Yes, they called me to the police. I was interviewed, and I gave
10 my statements. Also, in Zagreb, in the Association of Camp Inmates, I
11 gave my statements. They were recorded and also they were set down in
13 Q. Could you perhaps remember when that was?
14 A. I'm really sorry, but I wouldn't know. I can't remember. It was
15 more than 21 years ago. I don't remember.
16 Q. And can you try to find your bearings. Was it before the moment
17 in time when you gave the statement to the Prosecution?
18 A. Yes. In the Association of Camp Inmates, I did it as soon as I
19 was released from the camp because they looked for me. I remember that.
20 And as for the rest, I really can't remember.
21 Q. And the Association of Camp Inmates is based in Zagreb; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that's where you gave your statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then later on to the police, was it also in Zagreb or in some
1 other place?
2 A. In Zagreb.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could I ask you, Mr. Zivanovic and Madam Witness,
4 to pause between questions and answers to allow the interpreters to
5 finish their interpretation. Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. As I was somewhat fast I will repeat my question, though you did
8 answer it.
9 The question was whether you also gave the same statement to the
10 police in Zagreb, or was it in some other place.
11 A. I gave the same statement in Zagreb.
12 Q. Please tell me if you have heard, and if so, when, that criminal
13 proceedings were being instituted - because of the crime committed in
14 Begejci - against the commander of the camp, Zivanovic?
15 A. Yes, I heard about that on the television. I think it was in the
16 news. I'm not sure, but at any rate I did hear about it.
17 Q. And could you tell me, when did you hear about this?
18 A. I don't know. Really, I don't know the dates. I'm sorry. I
19 heard it ... but now that I try to look back, let me try and remember.
20 Perhaps four years ago. I received at my address in Split this letter
21 asking me whether I would testify in Mr. Zivanovic's case to the effect
22 that he was the commander of the camp in Begejci. And, of course, I
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, is the record correct that this is
25 about a crime committed in Begejci against the commander of the camp?
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: No, proceeding against commander of the camp --
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: -- in Begejci.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Now I understand. Thank you.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And when they invited you to give a statement, did you give a
8 A. No. They didn't invite me. Later on -- they said that they
9 would inform me in writing. And later on, up until today, I was never
10 informed about anything.
11 Q. You see, I read your statement which you gave in 1996, and I have
12 read also your statement, if I may put it that way, which you gave to the
13 OTP when you met them on the 9th and 10th of September. And as we do not
14 have it translated, I won't be able to show it to you, but I will read to
15 you one section in English and you will receive interpretation.
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is on Defence list. It is tab 3, 1D789.
17 Q. [Interpretation] So in paragraph 15, that's the note by which the
18 Prosecution informs us about what they discussed with you over these two
19 days, and it says here:
20 [In English] "The witness clarified that Captain Zivkovic she
21 refers to in paragraph 22 was the camp commander at Begejci. On
22 reflection, the witness noted that he is the same person as
23 Lieutenant-Colonel Miroslav Zivanovic, the camp commander at Begejci."
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy.
25 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, could I please ask that this not be
1 broadcast. To clarify for the record, this is a proofing note to which
2 counsel is reading now from that was circulated by the Prosecution on
3 Monday evening. It does contain the witness's name and various details
4 so I do believe it should be either in private session but certainly not
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: We could move into private session. I'll -- I
7 didn't believe that it -- it revealed anything, but ...
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: If it has the identity, and it probably has the
9 identity of the witness, then, of course, we should be --
10 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Maybe the text, yes, that's correct.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Let's not broadcast it.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. And, you see, it was for the first time that I saw here that you
15 said that this Captain Zivkovic - later on you corrected it and said that
16 it was a different surname, Zivanovic - that he was the commander of the
17 camp in Begejci.
18 As I see that you did not mention that in your statement to the
19 OTP given in 1996. So I wanted to ask you whether you could explain what
20 were the reasons why you didn't say that then, this officer, whether his
21 last name was Zivkovic or Zivanovic, namely, that he was the camp
23 A. No one asked me. I believed this to be unimportant, what
24 position he held. He was the commander. He existed there. I learned
25 later on that he was, among other things, also the commander of the camp.
1 Q. I saw that in your statement on several occasions you mentioned
2 this Zivkovic, let me call him because that's how he is referred to in
3 the statement, and is he called a captain. Tell me, were you able to
4 differentiate the ranks in the JNA?
5 A. Of course. I was not a child. I was a mature person already at
6 the time. With three stars, if I need to say, up here, a green uniform,
7 three stars, and on the cap, by that and also by what people were saying.
8 He himself came to the Begejci camp and introduced himself. He said, I'm
9 Captain Zivojinovic, Zivanovic, that's what I mean. And I'm saying now,
10 20 years later, many of us mix it up, but I will vouch to you that it's
11 one and the same person. And now, after 21 years, I would be able to
12 recognise him and describe his appearance. If you were to show me his
13 photograph in a uniform, I will tell you whether it's him or not.
14 Q. I don't have the photograph so I cannot show it to you. But I
15 would ask you if you could please tell me, when you say that he had the
16 three stars on his shoulder --
17 A. Yes, please, finish your question. I apologise.
18 Q. Do you know how many stars a colonel, for example, had?
19 A. I really don't know. You can imagine going through the ordeal.
20 I only noticed that on the day when I arrived in Begejci on his uniform.
21 Later on, I was unable to consider stars and ranks or anything like that.
22 I'm really sorry.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Ms. Dennehy.
24 MS. DENNEHY: Mr. President, I was going to object to the
25 question. The witness has clarified on a number of occasions during her
1 testimony that this was the camp commander and I believe that question
2 has been asked and answered already.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic. Let's see where
4 this goes.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. In other words, you knew that the three stars stood for a
8 A. The stars are unimportant. I'm sorry. He came there and
9 introduced himself in the camp. He said, I'm Captain Zivkovic or
10 Zivanovic. I'm telling that I mixed this up, whether it's Zivanovic,
11 Zivojinovic. But he introduced himself, and all inmates, all of us who
12 were there, when we were exchanged, 500 and more, we know that that was
13 him. He introduced himself to us by his name.
14 Q. Excuse me, did you say Zivojinovic?
15 A. Zivojinovic, Zivanovic, please don't make me confused with the
16 last name. I think I have replied to your question.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session, please.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 8569-8572 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 Re-examination by Ms. Dennehy:
25 Q. Madam Witness, I just have one question for you. It relates to
1 Defence counsel's suggestion that there was an error in your statement
2 and that pertains to the rallies that took place. Were there multiple
3 rallies that took place at the time?
4 A. Please repeat your question. Slowly.
5 Q. I would like to ask about the -- the rallies that took place
6 around Vukovar. You mentioned this in your statement on the first page.
7 My question is: Was there more than one rally over the entire
8 region? Not just Vukovar, but the entire region. Was there more than
10 A. I don't know ...
11 Q. Did you attend --
12 A. Actually, I'm not clear about the question still. What rally are
13 you referring to?
14 Q. The HDZ rallies that you referred to in your statement. Let me
15 read it for you so you can be clear. You said in paragraph 5 of your
17 "During the rallies, e.g., Vukovar 1990, I was keeping order,"
18 and so on and so forth.
19 Defence counsel suggested that there was an error in relation to
20 this sentence. And my question is: Was there more than one rally
21 overall in the -- held by the HDZ in the region?
22 A. Oh, there's a mistake here. There was a rally in Vukovar and, as
23 I said, at -- there was one at Lovas, Tovarnik, Opatovac. Just like the
24 rallies of the Serbian Democratic Party and where they presented their
25 programme. And other parties also had rallies, but I wasn't interested
1 in them. I hope I -- this time around I got your question right?
2 Q. Yes, Madam Witness. That answers my question. Thank you.
3 MS. DENNEHY: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Witness, at page 27 for the parties, you
6 said that you returned to Vukovar but you didn't say when that was. Can
7 you please --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. I returned to Vukovar
9 after the peaceful reintegration, when Vukovar was renovated and our
10 houses. I couldn't give you the exact date.
11 We renovated our house, and we wanted to stay and live there,
12 but, unfortunately, there's no future there for me, let alone for my
13 child. Nowadays, the Serbs have greater rights than the Croats in all
14 respects, although I would like us to live there and for us all to be
15 equal and have a good life. I believe that some day I will return and
16 spend my old age -- the rest of my days there.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: You said it's impossible for you to give us a
18 date. Could you give us a year and eventually a month? If not, just say
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really cannot at this moment --
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's -- it's --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to remember. My son was
23 about -- well, he may have started going to school. Or, rather, just
24 before he was -- was supposed to go to school. In 1997 or 1996.
25 Somewhere between 1995 and 1997.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much, Madam Witness.
2 This brings your --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much as well.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: This brings your testimony to an end. You're
5 released as a witness. We thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
6 assist the Tribunal, and we all appreciate how difficult this was for
7 you. We wish you a safe journey home. The court usher will escort you
8 out of the courtroom. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much too.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.52 a.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of
14 September, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.