1 Thursday, 10 July 2014.
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
10 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 The appearances, please, starting with the Prosecution.
13 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
14 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton, case manager
15 Thomas Laugel, legal interns, Katherine Davis and Lucy Jones.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
19 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, case manager
20 Negosava Smiljanic, and intern, Philipp Muller. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
23 WITNESS: GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpretation]
25 Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, yesterday you spoke about the
2 signing of that document which was supposed to initiate a cease-fire, and
3 you also told us that some government members and some other people were
4 against the signing of that document. Do you remember any of them, any
5 of those who were against?
6 A. Yesterday I told you that I consulted the government members who
7 were in Borovo Selo. However, when I returned to Dalj, a group of people
8 from Dalj was waiting for me there. They attacked me, verbally. The
9 secretary of the local commune of Dalj, Milan Panisic cursed both me and
10 Milosevic. He told me that I was stupid, that I didn't understand
11 anything, that I had to insist on signing as the prime minister because,
12 in that case, we would be given statehood and independence. In my view,
13 it was an utopia, it was nonsense. But I didn't want to the quarrel when
14 I just left.
15 Q. After that, what was your relationship with this gentleman whom
16 you have just mentioned?
17 A. I never quarreled with anybody. I didn't curse anybody. I
18 didn't allow anybody to curse me. That's why I didn't want to talk to
19 him. From then on, I never even greeted him in passing. But I did not
20 come across him that often.
21 Q. Can you please repeat his family name or, rather, his full name
22 for the record.
23 A. Milan Panisic, nicknamed Miso.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please P194.140. It is tab 152.
25 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday you spoke in great detail about this
1 document. Did you try in any way to obtain the original of that document
2 once you saw it, once you realised that it existed in the course of this
4 A. Yes. I know that I didn't sign this document. This order was
5 impossible. When I saw the signature, it did seem like my signature, but
6 it seems to have been executed in two goes; first the name and then the
7 family name. That's why I insisted with my Defence team to try and get
8 hold of the original. And also I was interested in the origin or the
9 source of that document, who was it who submitted it. But then I heard
10 that it was provided by the Prosecutor's office.
11 Q. And what was the outcome of the search for the original?
12 A. I heard that there was no original.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please 1D75. It is tab 728. It
14 should not be broadcasted.
15 JUDGE HALL: Thank you. Before you proceed, Mr. Zivanovic, I'm
16 wondering whether the -- this may have been explored when this document
17 was first exhibited, but my question is whether the witness has any
18 comment to make on what appears to be a seal at the left of the signature
19 in the original -- well, the "original" document?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether there is a
21 copy where the seal is more visible. However, from what I see here, I
22 could not discern the type of seal.
23 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because -- because there were some
25 other documents which were also suspicious. The seals on them differed
1 from the one used by the government. I can't remember whether this seal
2 is visible or more visible somewhere else. I -- I'm not sure.
3 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please 1D75. It is tab 728. May we
5 see next page, please. In English it is next page, too.
6 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember that we received -- do you
7 remember that this document was attached to the reply to our request?
8 A. Yes, I remember that.
9 Q. And that it says that there is no original in the archives, in
10 the state archives, that this document doesn't exist?
11 A. Yes, this is what it says in this letter.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender this document.
13 MR. STRINGER: Yes, object to it. We object to it,
14 Mr. President. This witness is not able to provide foundation. We would
15 need to hear someone -- from someone who was actually involved in
16 searching for it.
17 Thank you. That's our objection: No foundation.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I don't think that there is no foundation for
20 this document. Many documents were tendered without giving evidence of
21 the author of this document or such document or someone else. It is
22 document that's -- okay.
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer.
24 MR. STRINGER: This, Mr. President, is a response from the
25 government of the Republic of Serbia to a Request for Assistance that
1 went across from the Defence. So it's not actually providing documents,
2 which is the normal thing that happens in response to RFAs. Rather, it's
3 saying that a document wasn't found. Any witness could sit in the box
4 and say, as this witness just did, "Yes, that's what the letter says."
5 But it doesn't really provide any sort of foundation for us to determine
6 what, in fact, is the point here, which is whether the letter was found,
7 where it was looked for, what was done in order to locate it. And this
8 witness is not in a position to answer those questions, I don't think,
9 and that's why, in our view, there is an insufficient foundation for this
10 letter to be admitted for the assertion that the letter is, in fact, not
11 to be found in the possession of the Republic of Serbia.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, do you want to reply?
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would just add that this
14 document -- this document clearly, clearly states that such document is
15 not available in the archives of -- in the state archives of Serbia and
16 that we were not able to provide the original to see whether the
17 signature of Mr. Hadzic is authentic on the original of this document or
18 it is -- it was false.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Objection is overruled. The document is admitted
21 and marked.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, document 1D75 will become
23 Exhibit D128, under seal. Thank you.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please 1D186. It is tab 733. It
25 should not be broadcasted, too.
1 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember --
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Next page in English. Or the third page of
3 English translation. [Interpretation] We can go to the following page in
4 the original as well. I believe that the translated version also needs
5 to be moved to the following page.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember this very well.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I would tender this document too.
8 MR. STRINGER: Just for the record, Mr. President, we object on
9 the same grounds. The witness for this is a representative of the
10 government of Serbia. Thank you.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Noted and overruled.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D129, under seal, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you remember that the government of Slavonia,
16 Baranja, and Western Srem in the summer of 1991 issued a declaration on
17 the general mobilisation of the citizens who were at the time in Serbia,
18 Vojvodina; i.e., in Yugoslavia as a whole?
19 A. Yes, I remember that.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please P166. It is tab 125.
21 [Microphone not activated].
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. On the screen you can see at the bottom of the original that
25 there was, indeed, a declaration on mobilisation.
1 A. Yes, I can see it, but just barely. Can it be zoomed in?
2 Because I can only see the title.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Would you scroll down on the original? Yes. And
4 a little bit on right side. Good.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember this declaration on general
7 A. Yes, I remember. It was published in the media.
8 Q. Can you tell me why was it that the government declared general
9 mobilisation at the time? Was it at a request by a state organ of either
10 Serbia, Yugoslavia, or was there any other reason for that?
11 A. No, it was nobody's request. The residents of the district who
12 were there in the territory didn't need any mobilisation. They were
13 already there, and they responded to the call-up. But the problem was
14 with the Serbs who had fled leaving behind their homes and mostly elderly
15 parents, whereas they went to Serbia and lived there with their children.
16 They were over 18, mature people, fit for combat.
17 We, the government, knew from their neighbours in those villages
18 that these people were not willing to take care of their homes and
19 elderly parents, and they asked us that we send an appeal through the
20 media for them to return.
21 Q. And that was the reason why the government made that decision and
22 that proclamation?
23 A. That was the only reason. Because it was a big problem.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session, please.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 9654-9673 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see 1D3021. It is tab 1121.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Would -- Mr. Zivanovic, would this be
17 confidential and not to be broadcast?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, Your Honours. I see that it was provided
19 under Rule 70.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. This is a report dated 8 August 1991 from a meeting held by a
23 Working Group of the Presidency of the SFRY. Do you know about this
24 meeting? Because I see it included some representatives of Slavonia,
25 Baranja, and Western Srem. Do you know this meeting was held?
1 A. Yes, I do. Koncarevic told me later.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Could we scroll down to item 5.
3 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 5, it is said that the persons
4 detained will be exchanged based on lists previously received by the
5 commission, and they would be released by 1800 hours and work should be
6 resumed. Do you remember, was this decision implemented?
7 A. I believe it was. I don't know if it was in this specific case,
8 but I believe so.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would tender 1D3021 into evidence,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D134, Your Honours. Should it be under
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Under seal, of course. Thank you.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated].
16 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, just to say that for some of these
17 FBIS articles they were subsequently declassified or the Rule 70
18 protection was lifted. And that's why some of these are not being --
19 coming into evidence under seal, and so we're going to check on this
20 specific one but it may be that it would no longer be covered by Rule 70.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We'll hear from you, Mr. Stringer. Thank
22 you very much.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Hadzic, that on the 16th or 15th of August
25 there was an all-for-all prisoner exchange?
1 A. I remember.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see P2988, please.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Tab number, please.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is tab 667.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. It says here that you also attended one meeting at Borovo Selo
11 when this Working Group from the Presidency arrived and that alongside
12 you there were Koncarevic, Petrovic, and Kojic. Do you recall this
14 A. Yes, I remember it because Drazen Budisa and Zivko Milosevic were
15 also there.
16 Q. Is it true that this all-for-all prisoner exchange, referred to
17 in paragraph 1, took place?
18 A. Yes, it's true. But it is not correctly written at the top. It
19 should be "Jusgo," Zivko Juzbasic and Drazen Budisa. Zivko Juzbasic and
20 Drazen Budisa.
21 Q. Tell me, who was holding those prisoners -- or, rather, who
22 decided which people should be exchanged out of the total of prisoners
23 who were held in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?
24 A. It was all decided by federal institutions; that is to say, the
25 Presidency, our government, the federal Executive Council, and the JNA
1 carried out their decisions. When I said "our government," I meant the
2 federal government of Yugoslavia. That means no comma. And then in our
3 record, I see that there is a comma after the words "our government,"
4 followed by the federal Executive Council, so it looks like there were
5 several governments involved. I meant our federal government. We were
6 at that time a part of Yugoslavia.
7 Q. Do you recall that the JNA set up a commission to deal with
8 cease-fires and exchanges of persons detained in interethnic conflicts in
9 the territory of Croatia?
10 A. I recall that.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: P2921. It is tab 656. P2921. It is
12 tab [Microphone not activated]. Okay, we'll skip it. It is not this
13 document. Yeah. That's correct. That's correct document.
14 Q. [Interpretation] You have seen this document before during the
15 trial. I'd like to know if you had been aware of the work of this
17 A. I heard that it had been established, but I didn't have this
18 paper and didn't know any details. Nobody informed us in any form.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see P2915, please. It is tab 1310.
20 Q. [Interpretation] This document deals with an exchange that took
21 place in Klisa. And if you look at the second paragraph, you will see
22 that, in addition to members of the EU mission and JNA officers, this
23 meeting was also attended by two ministers from the government of SBWS.
24 Can you tell us, what was the role of these ministers, and tell
25 us their names, if you can remember. But what was their role in these
1 talks and negotiations about the exchange of prisoners?
2 A. On behalf of SBWS, this commission was assisted by
3 Ilija Koncarevic, but I'm confused when I see this reference to two
4 ministers from the government. Koncarevic's job was to make a list of
5 Serbs based on missing person reports from their families so they could
6 be exchanged for Croats. These Serbs were from Vinkovci, Osijek,
7 et cetera. So his job was to make the list, or help make the list. He
8 had no other role. And these two ministers, I suppose, were
9 Slavko Dokmanovic, who was a minister, and Rade Leskovac, who was a
10 deputy minister. I believe they were at these talks in Klisa because
11 they were making lists of Serbs for the municipality of Vukovar. Serbs
12 from our villages who were either captured or were left behind on the
13 Croatian side when the war broke out so they couldn't go home anymore.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look now at
15 document 2955.2913, tab 64. Could we zoom in on the original a bit,
17 Q. This is about a press conference held on the 19th or 20th
18 September, we can't see the date clearly, where you spoke among other
19 people. Could we look at what you said there; that is to say, the first
20 two paragraphs. Sorry, that was after the contribution by Petrovic,
21 paragraph number 5. No, the fourth paragraph.
22 This is a question put to you by the correspondent of TASS news
23 agency. It quotes you as saying, I will quote:
24 "... his government offered to the Croatian authorities 20
25 captured members of the guard in exchange for the missing Soviet
1 journalists ..."
2 It seems to follow from this that the government of SBWS was
3 holding some 20 members of the Croatian Home Guards they were offering in
4 exchange to the Croatian authorities.
5 A. The government of SBWS never held a single prisoner. When I said
6 "the government," I meant the government of our state, the federal
7 government. That's what Ilija Koncarevic told me. They were offering 20
8 Croatian Guards. And the answer from the Croats was that they didn't
9 know about those two captured Russians. If they had known, they would
10 have probably exchanged them.
11 Q. It seems to follow from this text that you said at this
12 conference "my government." Was this correctly reported?
13 A. No, it was not. First of all, I never used the words "my
14 government" even talking about the government of SBWS. It was not my
15 government. This reference here is to our federal government.
16 Q. Since this conference was also filmed and we have seen the
17 footage here in the courtroom, I should like us to look at this again,
18 and I want you to see if you can recognise the words you've uttered then.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is P40, tab 27.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you repeat the document number, please.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is Exhibit P40, tab 27.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Tab 27 seems to have another exhibit number.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Exhibit number --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I know -- no, sorry, my mistake.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yeah.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The issue of western borders of
4 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is open. This was said by the
5 president of the government of these regions, Goran Hadzic, in his talks
6 with journalists in the Belgrade international press centre. On this
7 occasion, he reminded about the proposal of the Serb National Council of
8 these areas to, if need be, establish this border with the help of moving
9 Croatian and Serb population in the broader area.
10 "Reporter: Serb Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and
11 Western Srem is no longer in Croatia. The issue of western borders is
12 open and the government of this Serb autonomous region advocates a
13 democratic way of solving this and by respecting the will of the people.
14 "Goran Hadzic, president of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,
15 said this to local and foreign journalists in the international press
16 centre in Belgrade. Information minister, Ilija Petrovic, reminded the
17 borders, according to the London agreement are Ilova, Moslavina,
18 Virovitica, and then also, at the proposal of the National Council, that
19 the Croatian state assess whether one of the solutions would be moving
20 the Serb and Croatian populations. When asked by the journalists whether
21 the tanks had been summoned from Belgrade, Goran Hadzic replied: The
22 tanks belong to the JNA and I can tell you that within the borders of the
23 present Republic of Croatia the JNA is, if not in greater peril, then
24 equally imperilled as the Serb people living there. They go there to
25 liberate their colleagues, soldiers.
1 "Reporter: When asked several times about who was invited to
2 return to these regions, Hadzic expressed the wish for return not only of
3 Serbs but of native Croats as well. Serb people did not endure genocide
4 by the native Croats but by the colonists Ante Pavlovic brought to
5 western Herzegovina, Croatian Zagorija and Imotsko. They were the first
6 ones to raise arms and mine Serb houses.
7 "In order to establish a normal life, we will have to present
8 them with a return ticket. Hadzic also said Serbia should take care of
9 women and children refugees and not of able-bodied men. Stating the data
10 on SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, Goran Hadzic stressed there
11 were 150.000 inhabitants living there and that its capital is Vukovar,
12 which had not been liberated yet, but this does not mean it would not be.
13 Goran Hadzic replied to the TASS reporter that his government offered 20
14 imprisoned guards to Croatian authorities in exchange for two missing
15 Soviet journalists. Unfortunately, Hadzic said, 'our government does not
16 know where they are.'"
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So my question, Mr. Hadzic, did you hear your own words in this
19 video or your words of the reporter as regards this offer for releasing
20 two Soviet journalists?
21 A. I heard my words and I said "our government," meaning our federal
23 Q. Did you hear that in the original, your words, or did you hear
24 what the reporter stated?
25 A. This I heard in the original, "our government," at least that's
1 the way it seemed to me. Perhaps we can play it again, just this last
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play perhaps just the
4 last minute.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Hadzic, my impression is that this was a woman's voice, so
8 that's why I'm asking you whether you heard your own voice uttering this
9 sentence that we mentioned.
10 A. I apologise. I was not focused. I heard it. It was the comment
11 on the journalist, and it misconveyed the thing that I said earlier on.
12 For Croatia, it was supposed to be "from Imotsko, from Hrvatska Zagorija
13 [phoen]," and the preposition used was different. And it was "from
14 western Herzegovina," not "into western Herzegovina."
15 Q. Just one more question. Do you know that exchanges of prisoners
16 were carried out during September and October? I mean in general. That
17 they were carried out from when this decision of the Presidency was made
18 and onwards.
19 A. I know that they were carried out. And sporadically I was
20 informed about this by Ilija Koncarevic, in terms of informal reports
21 because he was not a member of the government.
22 Q. According to the information that we have here, that you are
23 aware of, on the 25th of September the government of Slavonia, Baranja,
24 and Western Srem was elected. Since you were the prime minister
25 designate for that government, could you tell us how it was that you
1 selected the people who you would propose as candidates for membership in
2 that future government?
3 A. There were major problems involved for me personally. I had to
4 meet certain requirements that were almost incompatible. First of all,
5 territorial representation. But then also there should be
6 professionalism, too. And often that was impossible to meet both
7 requirements. So, as for all three parts of Slavonia, Baranja, and
8 Western Srem, we wanted to have these three biggest parts represented,
9 and then within these separate parts there should be representation of
10 practically every village or every group of villages because it's
11 different. If we, the so-called ministers, were to be elected in a
12 different way, this would have caused great dissatisfaction among the
13 population. So we needed people who were professionals but we also
14 needed people who came from certain parts of the territory.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. The candidates that you put forth, were all of these candidates
18 members of the SDS?
19 A. They were not because membership in the SDS was not the main
20 precondition or requirement.
21 Q. As prime minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, did you
22 have the authority to issue orders to some members of the government or,
23 rather, to the ministers?
24 A. I did not have any possibilities because I and the ministers were
25 elected by the assembly, and we were held accountable by the assembly and
1 we made decisions by voting at government sessions, and then these
2 decisions had to be carried through.
3 Q. Could you perhaps remove a particular minister from his position?
4 A. I could not. If that minister would not agree with that, then it
5 would have to be done by the assembly.
6 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see L15, please. It is tab 1190. I think
7 it is -- this translation does not correspond to the decision on election
8 of the president, vice-presidents, and members of the government.
9 Anyway, we can remove it from the screen. And --
10 Q. [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you about ministers who were in
11 that government. I'm going to ask you to tell us a few words about them.
12 One of the deputy prime ministers was Dr. Mladen Hadzic. Could you
13 please tell us whether you knew him; and, if so, from when?
14 A. Yes, I knew him. Mladen Hadzic originally hails from my village,
15 but after he got his degree in medicine he no longer lived in Pacetin.
16 He lived in Borovo Naselje. And then in the 1980s, he built a house in
17 Tenja near Osijek. He moved to Tenja and lived there. He was president
18 of the Serb Democratic Party in Tenja, of the local committee in Tenja.
19 MR. STRINGER: Just to inform my learned friend that if he would
20 like to go to the decisions on election of the president and the
21 government, those are in L1 at page 16 of the English. That's the
22 complete Gazette for the period and it has all those decisions.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you to the Prosecution.
24 If we may see L1, page 16 in English.
25 MR. STRINGER: I may have misspoke. That's the election of the
1 president of the Great National Assembly I see, but the decision
2 appointing the president of the government is at page 25. So that may be
3 more in the area of the document. Apologies.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's it.
5 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us since Dr. Mladen
6 Hadzic had the same last name, like you, were you related?
7 A. We had not been related over the past 200 years. Perhaps 300
8 years ago we were blood relations.
9 Q. The second person on this list is Dragan Sabljakovic. Can you
10 tell us something about him?
11 A. He was elected vice-president or vice premier on behalf of the
12 local commune of Markusica. That is the biggest village in that part
13 between Vinkovci and Osijek, and he did not really have any kind of
14 professional education that would make him eligible for minister, so he
15 was deputy prime minister in order to be able to deal with certain
16 organisational matters.
17 Q. Ilija Kojic is the first one on this list of ministers. We've
18 heard quite a bit about him already. Can you tell us whether he was a
19 member of the Serb Democratic Party?
20 A. I do not have any information about him being a member of the
21 SDS, so that means he wasn't. In Vukovar he wasn't. He certainly wasn't
22 a member of the Serb Democratic Party.
23 Q. The second is Borislav Bogunovic. I believe that we've heard a
24 lot about him so I won't be asking about him.
25 The third is Bogdan Vojnovic. Can you tell us something about
2 A. I knew Bogdan Vojnovic; I knew him by name. He was the head of
3 finance at Vupik. He was the best finance guy in the municipality of
4 Vukovar. That was his reputation. That's why I tried to find him, and I
5 did, and I asked him whether he would serve as minister, and he accepted
6 the suggestion. He was not a member of the party.
7 Q. The next one is Vitomir Devetak. Again, can you tell us
8 something about him? Just briefly?
9 A. After Vukasin Soskocanin was killed, he was the president of the
10 local commune of Borovo Selo. Since Borovo Selo was the village with the
11 highest number of population of all the villages in the area, they - and
12 I mean the local commune - put forth the names of the people who were
13 ministers or who would be ministers. Devetak was one of the three of
14 them. He was put forth by people in Borovo Selo.
15 Q. The next one is Slavko Dokmanovic. Can you tell us something
16 about him, briefly? Missed a request colloquy?
17 A. He was the former president of Vukovar municipality. He was an
18 agronomist from Trpinja, and he was not a member of the SDS.
19 Q. Vojin Susa.
20 A. He was a refugee from Vinkovci. Before the war, he was the
21 assistant public prosecutor in Vinkovci. Together with a group of
22 lawyers, he arrived in Dalj. Most of them were from Vukovar; i.e., from
23 the municipality of Vukovar. They had agreed amongst themselves who
24 could be the minister of justice, who could be the public prosecutor, and
25 who could be president of the courts. I was not an expert, and I still
1 don't know anything about the law and judiciary, so I really did not
2 question their proposals. I accepted that Susa should become minister of
3 justice, that Milos Vojnovic would be elected the president of a court.
4 But that was later. Their plan was already on the table. They had
5 drafted it amongst themselves.
6 I'm not sure that Susa was a member of the SDS in Vinkovci. He
7 may well have been, but I don't know. I never spoke to him as a party
8 member. We were friends from school.
9 Q. Dr. Mladen Jovic. Dr. Mladen Jovic.
10 A. He was a physician from Borovo Selo. He came with the package,
11 as it were. He was one on the list of the villagers of Borovo Selo. In
12 Borovo Selo, there were a lot of Serbs who were not natives. They had
13 moved from Bosna. They had to be represented, and their representative
14 was Jovic.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. I believe that you've spoken about Ilija Petrovic at great length
19 already. Can you tell us something about Milan Knezevic?
20 A. Milan Knezevic was a teacher from Baranja. He was a member of
21 the Socialist Party of Croatia. He wore a double hat. He represented
22 Baranja as well as the Socialist Party of Croatia. So those two
23 requirements were met in one person.
24 Q. Borivoje Milenkovic.
25 A. He was from Dalj. He was elected as a minister at the proposal
1 of people from Dalj to represent them.
2 Q. Pajo Nedic.
3 A. He was from Bobota. He was a member of the Serbian Democratic
4 Party. The locals of Bobota agreed that he should be minister.
5 Q. Bogdan Vorkapic.
6 A. He was from Vukovar. He was a refugee in Prigrevica. He had
7 arrived from Prigrevica at Dalj and became a minister. So he was not
8 there when we sent out call-up papers. We called him personally because
9 we needed him because he -- his professional profile fit the
11 Q. Was he a member of the SDS?
12 A. Bogdan Vorkapic was not a member of the SDS. He never joined the
13 SDS. He was a member of the socialist party, just like Milan Knezevic.
14 He supported Martic in the elections and not me; so, in other words, he
15 was my political opponent.
16 Q. Dr. Caslav Ocic.
17 A. Dr. Caslav Ocic had a PhD in economics. He hailed from Dalj but
18 lived in Belgrade. He belonged to the group of Serbs who were supposed
19 to open a door for us in Belgrade in a way. Since Dalj is second largest
20 village only to Borovo Selo, it gave two ministers: Caslav Ocic and
21 Boro Milenkovic. That was also a proposal by the locals of Dalj. Later
22 on he became a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts.
23 Q. Was he a member of the SDS?
24 A. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
25 Q. Miomir Crnogorac.
1 A. He was my friend from Pacetin. We went to school together.
2 Q. The last on the list is Stevo Bogic.
3 A. He was from Borovo Selo. He came as a part of the package,
4 together with Jovic and Devetak.
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us about the influence of the
6 government; i.e., could the government exert any influence on the
7 developments in the territory of SBWS?
8 A. That influence was negligible, if there was any at all. We did
9 not have any technical capabilities and that really paints a very good
10 picture of the whole situation.
11 Q. And what about the financial situation. What were the
12 governments financial resources? Did it have a budget?
13 A. According to what I know, when we were established -- or, rather,
14 in those first few days or the first few months of our work, our bottom
15 line was zero.
16 Q. Did you and the other ministers receive any salaries? How much
17 were they?
18 A. In the course of 1991, I did not receive a single salary, and I
19 believe that the same was true for all the other ministers. Nobody was
20 paid for what they did.
21 Q. Did the government control any armed forces that would have been
22 in a position to possibly enforce law or implement measures passed by the
24 A. The government of the SBWS did not have any armed forces under
25 its control. It didn't have any men under arms that it might have
1 controlled, no.
2 Q. We've had an occasion to hear in this courtroom that there was a
3 service known as the Serbian national security. That service was headed
4 by Stevo Bogic, who was directly subordinated to you. Is that correct?
5 A. This is not correct. Stevo Bogic was a minister without a
6 portfolio, and he was equal to me and all the others. He was elected by
7 the assembly. I was the first among the equals. He was not subordinated
8 to me. I could not give him any orders. And as far as his duties are
9 concerned, in addition to the political ones that he had, he assumed a
10 responsibility to set up a security service around the government
11 building. That meant around-the-clock security detail in three shifts.
12 And if a minister had to travel or be transferred somewhere, they had to
13 be escorted or even driven because the ministers didn't have cars. If
14 only one car was available, then a driver had to drive it. So it was
15 more to do with driving people around than to provide security.
16 Q. You said that he organised the security detail for the
17 government. What do you know about the functioning of the government's
18 security detail? What was it? How many people were involved? What did
19 they do? How they did it? As far as you can remember.
20 A. In 1991, I was not in Slavonia and Baranja very often. In
21 October, I was there only on two or three occasions, for two or three
22 days. According to what I learned subsequently, Bogic established the
23 security detail and recruited people from Borovo Selo mostly. According
24 to what I know, there could not have been more than seven, eight, or nine
25 of them; three in each of the shifts.
1 Q. When they worked, when they were on a shift, where were they, the
2 three men that you just mentioned? Where would they spend their working
3 hours, as it were?
4 A. Out at the entrance into the manor and at the entrance into the
5 courtyard. I don't know how things were organised during the night
6 because I didn't go there during the night. Some of them even drove
7 Stevo Bogic around. I used to see one or two of them with him outside
8 Erdut, even.
9 Q. Do you know where they were billeted? Where did they sleep?
10 A. I never entered those rooms. However, there were two rooms there
11 where they could sleep.
12 Q. You knew the people who were there who were standing guard around
13 the government building. Did any of you [as interpreted] provide your
14 security in 1991, 1992, and 1993?
15 A. No, I did not have a security detail. I didn't know them well at
16 the time. I just greeted them at the entrance. I would just say good
17 morning to them.
18 Q. I believe that your answer was not precise. You said that you
19 didn't have a security detail. I asked you whether any of those men who
20 secured the government facilities was part of your security detail.
21 A. No. I had my security guards and it was none of them. When I
22 attended government sessions, in formal terms, they were standing in
23 front of the government building where the session was being held, but
24 that had nothing to do with me.
25 Q. [Microphone not activated]
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You said that in the month of August 1991, Radovan Stojicic,
5 Badza, came to SBWC [as interpreted] to take over the Territorial Defence
6 and the police together with his unit. Did you - and I mean the
7 government - have any impact on their actions?
8 A. No, we couldn't influence their actions at all.
9 Q. Were you able to influence Territorial Defence units that existed
10 there or maybe the police that he took over? I mean, both you personally
11 and the government.
12 A. We neither wanted to nor were -- nor had we the technical
13 capacity to do it. And we didn't influence them at all. I can explain
14 why we were technically unable.
15 Q. Please go ahead.
16 A. Mostly because the government in Erdut had only one telephone
17 which was connected to the Serbian network. It had a Belgrade telephone
18 number. So we were able to communicate only with businesses in Serbia
19 and families in Serbia. We were not able to use that telephone to
20 contact people in SBWS.
21 In the beginning, in September, only I had a car, a very old car
22 that a Novi Sad bank gave me for my personal use. None of the other
23 ministers had cars. But even that car was inadequate because we needed
24 an all-terrain vehicle to reach many villages. I had to go across
25 fields. So we had no communication with villages, with headquarters,
1 with staffs. We didn't even have a fax machine. And even a fax machine
2 wouldn't help us much because there were no fax machines on the other end
3 in villages because there was no power. So we had no contact with these
4 institutions and we couldn't influence them even if we had wanted to. It
5 was all under Badza.
6 Q. What was that situation with Arkan and his Volunteers Guard?
7 Were you able to exert any influence on them? Were you able to give them
8 any orders or instructions?
9 A. We couldn't give them any orders or instructions, nor have I ever
10 done that. They were either with Badza or with the military. They had
11 no connection to our government.
12 Q. When you talked about the relationship -- or, rather, the
13 communication between your government and villages, could you tell us
14 what was it like in Pacetin in 1992? Did any Territorial Defence exist
15 there? How did it operate? To whom was it subordinated?
16 A. Considering that I myself am from Pacetin, I know what the
17 situation was like there. In the early days when the village guards were
18 formed, it was done independently, autonomously, or rather I should say
19 spontaneously. As president of the local commune, I participated in
20 their organisation and the entire Executive Council over which I
21 presided, we were five or six members. It wasn't even called the
22 Territorial Defence. It was later called the Village Defence Staff.
23 In the beginning, we would stand guard in the centre of the
24 village, and as the situation became more and more serious, we also
25 placed guards along streets. So the village was open. Anybody who
1 wanted to could pass, but people were just standing there, watching out
2 for larger numbers of vehicles or buses because we were afraid of an
4 Later what I was practically blocked in Vukovar and could not
5 longer return to Pacetin, I didn't dare to travel to Pacetin because I
6 could be trapped there. I couldn't drive back in any weather. I didn't
7 have a car that could travel on mud tracks. So later on my deputy took
8 over those duties.
9 Very soon in August when the army got involved more openly in
10 that conflict, some unit from Nis arrived at Pacetin, according to the
11 information I have, led by some colonel who took over the entire defence
12 effort and all the rest. This is my indirect knowledge.
13 Q. When you say this colonel of that unit from Nis took over, do you
14 mean a JNA unit?
15 A. Of course. He was a colonel of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.
16 Q. Could you tell us more precisely, what do you mean by "took
18 A. It means that the village guards and all the rest of the village
19 organisation didn't have any purpose anymore. It was all placed under
20 the command of the JNA. Maybe it's better to say under single command.
21 Q. Do you have any information as to the situation in other
22 villages? Was it similar to Pacetin or was it different somewhere?
23 A. From what I learned later, it was identical.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Mr. President, I think it is the time for a
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: If that's convenient for you, Mr. Zivanovic.
2 Court adjourned.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.
8 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. [Interpretation] About these village guards, these units, these
10 defence staffs, and staffs of Territorial Defence, did they submit any
11 reports on their work to the government or you?
12 A. They did not, either to the government or myself.
13 Q. Can you tell us what was the relationship between the government
14 and the civilian local authorities, such as Executive Councils, in the
15 municipalities of SBWS?
16 A. This situation was slightly idiosyncratic because Baranja
17 remained intact and they were autonomous. The Executive Council
18 functioned in Baranja independently without any consultations with the
19 government. With the appointment of the president of their Executive
20 Council, we only formally confirmed it because he was elected by their
21 local assembly before any decision was made by the government. It was
22 only after the liberation of Vukovar, I don't know how many days after
23 the liberation, we proposed the president of the Executive Council for
24 the municipality of Vukovar, and we appointed presidents also for
25 Mirkovci village and Dalj later. These four municipalities, save for
1 Baranja, were also in the process of being established, just like the
2 government was, and they were not able to start working immediately.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we see please D41. It is tab 1236.
4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us to what extent was
5 it possible for you to move at that time throughout the territory of
6 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?
7 A. In addition to all the technical problems I described before the
8 break - namely, that we had no resources, no cars, no fuel - there was
9 also the practical problem that because of the military rule throughout
10 the territory of SBWS, we were not able to move freely around the
11 district, and there were also combat zones where we couldn't go at all
12 because the Croatian army was there. So it was practically impossible.
13 We could not even reach Western Srem. And in Eastern Slavonia, we
14 somehow managed to pass through towards Dalj and Borovo Selo; although,
15 in the early days, we also faced huge problems there.
16 Q. What were the problems you encountered as you tried to move
17 through the district?
18 A. The JNA set up check-points all over the district and it was
19 necessary to have a permit to pass through. At some stage it became
20 ridiculous, because every check-point asked for a different permit. Some
21 ministers had to turn back and find a new permit before they were allowed
22 to continue on their way. Sometimes you needed three different permits
23 to go from my village, Pacetin, to Erdut. But that was later resolved.
24 Things improved with time.
25 Q. On the screen we can now see one document from the JNA granting
1 permits for movement in the combat zones. In this respect, did members
2 of the government of SBWS have any preferential treatment as officials?
3 Did JNA treat them better in this respect than regular citizens?
4 A. In the early stages of the functioning of our government, we were
5 treated all the same as any other citizens. We didn't have any
6 preferential treatment. It didn't improve much over time. The only
7 thing is that we had better communication in one part of the district
8 between Bogota, Dalj, and Borovo Selo.
9 Q. We see in this document that it is not allowed to move around at
10 night across the bridge towards Bogota -- sorry, Bogojevo without a
11 permit. Was this applied? Was this enforced?
12 A. Yes, it was enforced. But I didn't get any papers from them.
13 And this is the first time, in fact, after I came to The Hague that I saw
14 these documents. At that time, I didn't receive any documents from the
16 Q. Did you ask for an explanation, did you ask for this treatment to
17 change, to allow you to move around freely?
18 A. Well, ministers approached me every day describing the problems
19 they had. And then I would contact the military command in Belgrade, and
20 I talked to Kadijevic, and I managed, after surmounting many obstacles,
21 to see him. But he showed so little understanding for our problems that
22 my visit was futile, and I thought that I would get more understanding
23 from Blagoje Adzic. But with him, it was exactly the same story as with
25 To this day, I don't know why they treated us that way. And only
1 after the testimony of Aco Vasiljevic did I begin to understand why.
2 Q. What was it that you understood from his testimony?
3 A. I realised that they also had a feeling that I refused to
4 co-operate with them, that I did not accept their officers, which is not
5 true, because their officers never offered me any co-operation. It was
6 not possible to co-operate because after that story with Nenezic, I
7 didn't have any contact with officers.
8 Q. You mentioned General Kadijevic and General Adzic. As you know,
9 they had been marked as participants in the joint criminal enterprise.
10 This is what I'd like to ask you. Apart from these meetings with both
11 that you mentioned, what kind of contacts did you have with them,
12 generally speaking, if any?
13 A. These were contacts at my own initiative and they were very
14 brief. I don't know if I ever stayed more than 15 or 20 minutes with
15 either one of them. Later on I just saw them when they attended meetings
16 of the Presidency concerning the Vance Plan, and then I never saw them
17 again. And I didn't talk to them then. That was a big meeting. There
18 were perhaps 30 of us there, or perhaps there were even 50 participants.
19 Q. Since you mentioned these contacts that went on for 15 or 20
20 minutes, does that relate to the contacts that you mentioned a moment ago
21 concerning freedom of movement through the region?
22 A. Yes, these are the contacts where they refused me. They barely
23 listened to me.
24 Q. Did you have any other communication apart from that with them?
25 A. I never had any other communication with them. I didn't have
1 their telephone numbers. I had no communication with them whatsoever.
2 Q. You have already spoken about that contact, that telephone
3 conversation with Slobodan Milosevic when the cease-fire agreement was
4 supposed to be signed in September 1991. Could you tell us now what kind
5 of contacts did you have with him before that or after that?
6 A. I've already mentioned that before that I had one contact.
7 Perhaps in the month of September in 1991 when Professor Raskovic called
8 me from Knin to be on this delegation of the Serb Democratic Party. I
9 was the only person then from Slavonia, Baranja, and from Knin. Almost
10 the entire Executive Board had come. Perhaps there were even 40 of them.
11 He stood at the door then, we walked in, we all shook hands. As a matter
12 of fact, I didn't even introduce myself by my name and surname. Perhaps
13 just my surname. I didn't even say anything.
14 As for that entire delegation, I think it was only Babic who
15 spoke. That was not a long meeting either. That was the only time I saw
16 him; the first time and the only time. After that, he phoned me after --
17 actually, during Wijnaendts' visit, and my understanding was that he
18 called me because Wijnaendts had called him, telling him that I did not
19 want to sign that.
20 The next time I received a call from his office was when I was
21 told that I should come to Belgrade in order to agree on this trip to
22 Paris to the Dutch embassy there. I'm not sure whether it was to Paris
23 or The Hague, but it was at the initiative of Henry Wijnaendts. I did
24 not see him then. Babic and I met on the ground floor of this Presidency
25 building so that we would agree how we would travel. We talked to his
1 chief of protocol, Milosevic's chief of protocol.
2 Q. I'm interested in this first meeting with Slobodan Milosevic,
3 where you say that there was a big delegation consisting of 40 persons.
4 Can you tell us what it was that was discussed then during that meeting?
5 A. Well, this had to do with that TV video-clip about Spegelj and
6 this panic among the Serb people. He tried to pacify us in a way, not to
7 have any kind of exodus take place, that there should be no panic either,
8 that the JNA could protect us. But I'm not sure that there were any
9 particular results there because this wasn't even discussed afterwards.
10 Q. At that meeting, did he address you directly?
11 A. No, he didn't even know who I was at the time and I didn't really
12 matter. I think he didn't know any one of us except for Babic. Babic
13 was the president of the municipality of Knin, so perhaps he was well
14 known. But the rest of us were all anonymous. I'm not sure
15 Professor Raskovic was with us. I'm not sure. I think it was only
17 Q. The other time when you came to the building where his office was
18 and when you talked to that chief of protocol, can you tell us what this
19 conversation consisted of, what the topic of this conversation was?
20 A. Well, the topic was preparing our trip for this meeting with
21 Henry Wijnaendts and agreeing on the air flights, et cetera, because the
22 federal government made it possible for us to travel by plane. This was
23 agreed upon with the representatives of the European community, Henry
24 Wijnaendts and Geert Ahrens. Because we had to fly from Belgrade. We
25 did not have an airport in our territory.
1 Q. Could you just repeat this name, Henry ...
2 A. Henry Wijnaendts, or Wijnaendts, and Geert Ahrens. Mr. Ahrens.
4 Q. After that during 1991 and 1992, did you see Slobodan Milosevic?
5 A. After returning from one of these meetings that we went to, I
6 don't know if it was Paris or The Hague, we were asked to come to see
7 Milosevic. Babic was with me, and Caslav Ocic, who was my minister of
8 foreign affairs in our government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
9 I'm not sure about this, but I think he was Babic's foreign minister,
10 too, that was there. Professor Lazo Matsura. I'm not 100 per cent sure
11 about him, but I think he was there. I saw then that Caslav Ocic knew
12 them. They knew each other from the days of communism, because Caslav
13 was a member of the city organisation of the League of Communists, but
14 they were on two opposing sides in that conflict. I saw that they were
15 not on very good terms, that they did not agree very much. But this is
16 just a digression. It really has nothing to do with what I've been
17 testifying about.
18 Then Milosevic, after certain polite introductory remarks, said
19 that the war should be over and that the Serbs in Croatia should get a
20 status that would protect their rights. As he said, a type of executive,
21 legislative, and parliamentary government and that this should be done
22 within Croatia and that that would be a good thing for all. And that we
23 should give this some thought.
24 Q. I'm sorry for interrupting. You mentioned three branches of
25 government. Could you please repeat the ones that he mentioned to you.
1 A. The executive, the legislative, and the judiciary. And our human
2 rights should be protected and physically we should be protected, too.
3 Along with international guarantees.
4 Henry Wijnaendts, already in the couloirs of the meeting in Paris
5 at the Dutch embassy there had suggested that to me, asking me what I
6 thought about that. I said that I could accept that, but that he should
7 first agree on that with Mr. Babic, because it would be hard for one side
8 to accept that and the other one not so that would be a problem. Because
9 then they could declare me a traitor, and then I said in jest I would
10 have nowhere to go to.
11 So when I heard Milosevic, I realised that he and Wijnaendts had
12 already agreed on that because they had almost the same views as those
13 that were communicated to me by Wijnaendts, because Wijnaendts said that
14 to me at a smaller table that was close to the dining table where we had
15 all been eating. So it was only the two of us at this small table and
16 nobody else heard this.
17 At this meeting with Milosevic, after all of these things were
18 said, Babic changed his mood visibly. He got angry, and we quickly ended
19 the meeting and left. I'm not sure now whether we had a press conference
20 scheduled that afternoon or whether Babic hurried to schedule one. At
21 any rate, we went to a press conference and Babic said that individuals
22 from Serbia were pressuring us to remain in Croatia. I'm paraphrasing
23 now. He said something along those lines. And it was obvious to the
24 journalists, too, that that had been Milosevic. And then Milosevic said
25 that we should agree on that. And now he said this without seeking any
1 kind of agreement with me and that was unpleasant for me. And he said,
2 "Ask Mr. Hadzic if you think that is not correct."
3 So I made no special comment. Because he said that without
4 seeking any kind of agreement with me - I mean, Babic.
5 Q. After this, did you have any other meetings with
6 Slobodan Milosevic?
7 A. During 1991, I did not. I never met with him on my own. It's
8 not that he ever received me only. I think that Babic and I came
9 together when people started talking about the Vance Plan. And then he
10 sent us to the government of Serbia to talk to some general, a retired
11 general, who was head of a UN mission in Egypt. He would explain to us
12 what the blue helmets were, how they operated, what their function was,
13 and so on, so that I could learn more about that. Slavko Jovic was the
14 name of that general.
15 Further on in 1991, I was called a few times, not too many times,
16 by Mr. Milosevic's secretary, first for a meeting with Marrack Goulding,
17 the envoy for the secretary-general of UN, and after that Mr. Cyrus
18 Vance, who the special envoy of the secretary-general of the UN. This
19 was -- this discussion of the Vance Plan, concerning the adoption of the
20 Vance Plan. In President Milosevic's office, once we were with Goulding,
21 and this other time at the villa of the government of Serbia. It was
22 called Boticeva Vila [phoen], and that is its name today as well. It is
23 in Dedinje. Botic. Botic. The Botic villa.
24 Q. In the indictment, Milan Martic is also mentioned as one of the
25 participants of the joint criminal enterprise. Can you tell us when it
1 was that you met him and can you tell us about your relationship with
3 A. Well, Milan Martic once came to Borovo Selo briefly to visit as
4 minister of the SAO Krajina. He knew some active policemen who were from
5 Vukovar and he was there as their guest. I saw him by chance there, and
6 I met him, was introduced, and chatted for about five minutes perhaps.
7 The second time I saw him was at a meeting of the Presidency of the SFRY
8 concerning the acceptance of the Vance Plan. I don't remember seeing him
10 Q. How did your relations develop later?
11 A. Later I saw him at the assembly in Borovo Selo when the single
12 republic of the Serb Krajina was formed and when I became president, and
13 he was a minister in Zecevic's government. So I had a correct
14 relationship with him, or rather no particular relationship. He was a
15 minister in the government, I was the president of the republic, so we
16 really had no points in common.
17 Q. And later?
18 A. Later we co-operated within the Supreme Defence Council when I
19 was in Knin, but I wasn't in Knin very often. However, soon we clashed
20 and, in my view, neither Martic nor I are to be blamed for that clash.
21 Q. Can you tell us about the nature of that conflict? What was this
22 clash about?
23 A. It escalated at this assembly session at Beli Manastir. But it
24 began while I was attending negotiations in New York after the Croatian
25 operation Maslenica. There were technical people on my delegation
1 alongside myself, such as interpreters and members of our bureau, from
2 Krajina, and they were in communication with the employees of the bureau
3 who remained in Belgrade. And they received by fax a copy of an article
4 from "Vecernje Novosti," a Belgrade newspaper, and one of the biggest
5 head lines was about a statement given by Martic where he said Hadzic is
6 promoting his own interests in New York, neglecting the people, and it
7 was basically an attack on me by Martic. I called him on an open
8 unsecure line from the US, and I asked, "Mile, what's the problem?" And
9 he says, "You said about me that I am dense, stupid." I never said such
10 a thing. So I asked, "Who told you that?" He said, "Some people from
11 Belgrade told me, and I'm sure they're not lying." And that was the
12 first step of our conflict.
13 And it escalated after the so-called Croatian operation at
14 Velebit, when Milan Martic off his own bat de-mined part of a minefield.
15 I don't mean he did it himself. His police did it without the knowledge
16 of the army or Mile Novakovic. That night the Croatian police took
17 advantage of that open space, raided our territory, and perpetrated a
18 massacre. They killed or slaughtered 19 of our fighting men in Lika.
19 I told him he didn't have any right to do that and he has no
20 right, nor does anybody, to do anything of their own initiative in a
21 combat zone. Of course, he didn't answer anything. He didn't deny it,
22 but he attacked me personally. That conflict escalated even further with
23 the elections.
24 Q. Can you tell us something about your relationship with
25 Milan Babic, who is also named as one of the participants in the joint
1 criminal enterprise: How long did you know him and how did your
2 relationship evolve?
3 A. I met Milan Babic in May 1990 when, together with Boro Savic and
4 another two of my friends, went to see Professor Raskovic to agree about
5 the establishing of the SDS Vukovar. The professor met us in the
6 municipal building in the office of Milan Babic. But Babic was not on
7 the cabinet at that time, not yet, because everybody knows he's a -- he
8 was a late sleeper, so he came after he got up around noon. And by that
9 time we had finished talking, Dr. Raskovic and me, so I just exchanged
10 greetings with him. We parted ways politically very soon after that
11 because I was in the same camp as Professor Raskovic and he was in a
12 different faction.
13 Q. Another person cited in the indictment is Jovica Stanisic. Can
14 you tell us something about him?
15 A. In 1991, I had no information on him whatsoever. His name
16 cropped up sometime in 1991, but I had not met with him ever.
17 Q. You also heard the testimony of Witness GH-002, who said that in
18 1991 both you and he attended certain meetings with Stanisic. Is that
19 correct? I don't know if you know who GH-002 is.
20 A. I'm thinking.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: May we move into private session for the moment,
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I think we missed a part of your
24 last intervention.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes. I asked for the private session, Your
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
3 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Could you just repeat, because it was not --
13 A. Yes. I had no meeting with Jovica Stanisic or a joint meeting
14 with GH-002 and Jovica Stanisic, but I can tell you how that witness came
15 up with that and why he said it, if you're interested.
16 Q. Please.
4 Q. Can you tell us how you met Franko Simatovic?
5 A. I didn't meet him in 1990, for sure. I even think that I didn't
6 know him at all in the period for which I was indicted, 1992, 1993. I
7 met him quite by chance in Ilok. One of my relatives stopped by in the
8 street to greet me and she is the one who introduced us. But I'm not
9 100 per cent sure. That was in 1994. And I met him once again in a
10 restaurant in Zemun. I don't know which of these encounters took place
11 first, but I never co-operated with him. I never had any official
12 meetings with him.
13 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, Your Honours, I'm just warned that one --
14 our exhibit was -- was erroneously marked as 1D3658 at the page 25,
15 line 22, of the transcript. And it was admitted into evidence as D130.
16 The exact number of this document is 1D3568.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's noted, Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. The next in the group is Vojislav Seselj. When did you meet
21 Mr. Seselj? What kind of relationship did you have with him?
22 A. On the 9th March, there was a rally in Serbia. Vojislav Seselj
23 was already a deputy. He -- and he appeared as a guest in Slavonia. He
24 toured Serbian villages. He was in Pacetin as well. That's when I saw
25 him first.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's when I saw him, and I got to
3 know him in a way, although I'm not even sure that he remembers me from
4 that event. But I remember him. He was already a famous person. Since
5 I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party and he was in the Serbian
6 Radical Party, he always showed animosity towards me. Whenever he came
7 to Slavonia and Baranja, he had people with him who sided with him and he
8 was very arrogant towards the rest of us. Later on we even had an open
9 conflict, but that's a different story.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Would you be able to tell us something about the conflict. What
13 was the conflict with Seselj about?
14 A. It started when I supported the peace plan. The so-called
15 Vance-Owen Plan of the international community for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 There was a rally at the Sava congress centre where he attacked me and
17 insulted me from the stage. I don't know why to this very day. I never
18 communicated with him after that, or at least not until the moment we
19 were both detained here in The Hague.
20 Q. I've already asked you about Stojicic and Kadijevic, as well as
21 Adzic. There are two more names that we have not discussed at all. One
22 of them is Radmilo Bogdanovic. Did you know him?
23 A. Radmilo Bogdanovic was the minister of the interior of Serbia,
24 and later he was the president of a security council of some sort. I
25 remember that, but I don't remember that I ever actually met him in
2 Q. [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone, please.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Will you please repeat what Mr. Bogdanovic became once he was no
7 longer the minister of the interior.
8 A. I learnt that from the media. He was the president of the
9 assembly committee on security in the Serbian assembly where he was an
11 Q. And the last name is that of Mihalj Kertes.
12 A. Mihalj Kertes married a girl from my village. However, that
13 woman, or, rather, her parents lived in Ilok. She was born in Ilok
14 herself but her father hails from my village. Her father is my aunt's
15 brother or my uncle's wife's brother. We are not blood relatives, in
16 other words, but we knew each other. I was not on very good terms with
17 Kertes, to put it mildly. We almost did not communicate after that
18 meeting in Backa Palanka which took place in May when he cursed everybody
19 who spoke to Koncarevic and Petrovic who were in communication with the
20 two of them. I continued communicating with both Koncarevic and
21 Petrovic. I didn't want to listen to Kertes, and he held it against me.
22 Later on a majority of the attacks on me and slander came from that
23 source. You will remember when I mentioned Trivo Ivkovic and others. If
24 it were not tragic, it would be funny. Those anecdotes involved 50
25 pistols, millions of German marks, and so on and so forth, and they all
1 come from the same source.
2 Q. I'm not going to mention the last name on the list. It's the
3 same of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. You've already said quite a lot about
4 him. I suppose you will continue talking about him later. And now I'm
5 just going to read the names on the list of the Serbian forces. That's
6 also in the indictment, Count 11. I will ask you to tell me whether you
7 had contact with any part of those forces. Were any of those segments
8 subordinated to you? The first part are members of the JNA.
9 A. No. I was in no position at all to order anything to the JNA or
10 even talk to them or make some arrangements with them.
11 Q. Later on the JNA became the Army of Yugoslavia and it was known
12 under its name. And during the period covered by the indictment, were
13 you in command of any of the segments of the Army of Yugoslavia?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. Under B, we can see the newly established Serbian
16 Territorial Defence in the SAO Krajina. Were you ever in a position to
17 give them orders?
18 A. No, never. Because they were under the government of the SAO
19 Krajina under Milan Babic, if I understood you properly.
20 Q. And what about the Territorial Defence of the SBWS?
21 A. No. In our region, the Territorial Defence was different than
22 the Territorial Defence in the SAO Krajina. We did not have any sort of
23 command over them. We did not control them, we could not give them
24 orders, we were not in communication with them at all.
25 Q. The subsequently established Serbian army of Krajina is something
1 you're familiar with; right? Did you exert command or control over that
3 A. No, I was never in a position to be in command of the Serbian
4 army of Krajina. I was a member of a body whose name escapes me. It was
5 the Council of the Supreme Command or something to the effect. The name
6 escapes me, but it will come back to me in a minute or two. Together
7 with me, members were the commander of the army, the minister of defence,
8 and the minister of the police. I represented the government. The body
9 was called the Supreme Military Council. I apologise. So I was in a
10 minority with regard to the others.
11 Q. [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Microphone.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
15 Q. One part of your answer has been misrecorded in the transcript.
16 When you said something about the government, it says that you
17 represented the government.
18 A. No, no. I was an equal member of the Supreme Defence Council.
19 The commander of the Serbian army of Krajina, Mile Novakovic, was also
20 there, the prime minister, Djordje Begovic was a member. Minister
21 Stojan Spanovic, and Minister Milan Martic. The government had an
22 absolute majority there. If I remember the situation well, those were
23 legal and professional issues that I didn't know much about. I didn't
24 understand those issues too well, so I didn't want to meddle too much.
25 Q. What was your role; i.e., did you have under your command a
1 Territorial Defence of the Republic of Serbia?
2 A. No, I didn't play any roles there. I didn't even know that they
3 were in the territory of Slavonia and Baranja. I thought that they were
4 all JNA. Only here did I see some documents that proved me wrong.
5 Q. [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Further on, we have special units of the Serbian MUP and the
9 state security, including the unit for special purposes, the unit for
10 anti-terrorist activity, and the unit for special operations, Skorpions,
11 the Serbian Volunteer Guards, and the special units of the MUP of Serbia
12 and state security known as the Red Berets or Frenki's men.
13 A. I could not issue orders to any of those you mentioned. I didn't
14 issue them orders. I didn't co-operate with them in any way.
15 Q. The next are the newly established special police forces of the
16 SAO Krajina, which were later merged with the MUP of the Serbian Krajina.
17 They were known as Martic's men or Martic's police. Were you in a
18 position to be in command over them?
19 A. The name says it all. Of course not.
20 Q. The next is the newly established special police and police
21 forces of the Serbian territory of the SBWS, including the Serbian
22 national security, which was later incorporated into the MUP of the
23 Republic of Serbian Krajina.
24 A. The Serbian national security was never established, nor was it
25 then incorporated, nor it could be incorporated into anything. I was not
1 in command of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
2 Q. And finally we have members of the paramilitary groups from
3 Serbia, Montenegro, mostly volunteer units from Serbia and Montenegro and
4 the units of Bosnian Serbs, including members of the Serbian Chetnik
5 movement, led by Vojislav Seselj. Tell us something about that, please.
6 A. I can tell you that I did not have anything to do with them. I
7 could not give them orders. I could not make any decisions about them.
8 I didn't even know that they were deployed in either Slavonia, Baranja,
9 and Western Srem or the Republic of Serbian Krajina. They arrived in
10 Slavonia as part of the JNA, according to what I knew. And my knowledge
11 was not first-hand knowledge on it, mind you.
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you spoke about your meetings with Henry Wijnaendts.
13 I'm going to show you two documents which we received from the Dutch
14 Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is 1D3032. It is tab 1126.
16 Q. [Interpretation] It says in this document that on the 4th of
17 October an agreement was reached about a meeting with the representatives
18 of Krajina and the SBWS that was to take place in the ambassador's
19 residence in Paris, and the ambassador in question was the Dutch
20 ambassador. On that occasion, Mr. Wijnaendts told you what the goal of
21 that meeting was going to be. He also told you that it concerned the
22 Serbian community residing in Croatia. He emphasized that a solution
23 should be sought within the boundaries Croatia and that solution included
24 a possible -- a special status.
25 Tell me, please, whether this tallies with what actually happened
1 at the meeting in Paris.
2 A. Well, this is what Mr. Wijnaendts told me behind the closed doors
3 at the little table that I mentioned -- in the corridor, actually. In
4 the initial part of the meeting, things were not said so directly. This
5 is a bit of a -- an exaggeration or a bit of a lie about Serbs staying in
6 Croatia. But word for word, this is what Wijnaendts told me eyeball to
8 Q. It also says here that you and Babic said that Croatia had
9 launched an initiative to change the borders by converting internal
10 administrative borders into state borders, and that the Serbs in Croatia
11 were equally entitled to change borders in the application of their right
12 to self-determination. Was any such thing said?
13 A. Yes, we did think that that was our legitimate entitlement and
14 that was in keeping with what Mr. De Michelis said previously.
15 Q. It says here further on that both sides were in favour of finding
16 a peaceful solution to the problem.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that they accepted -- or, rather, that the next meeting was
20 A. Yes, that's correct. That was my first priority, a peaceful
22 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I ask 1D3032 to be admitted into
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D135, Your Honours. Does it
1 need to be under seal?
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, indeed, thank you.
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Under seal, yeah.
4 And may we see 1D3033, please.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic, I see we are three or four minutes
6 short. Can you deal with this document within that time?
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, we can leave it for tomorrow -- for
8 Monday, sorry.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Preferably, yes.
10 Mr. Hadzic, we adjourn for the weekend. I remind you that even
11 during the weekend you are still under oath. Thank you.
12 Court adjourned.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day
16 of July, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.