Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9646

 1                           Thursday, 10 July 2014.

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.  This is case number

10     IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             The appearances, please, starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

14     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton, case manager

15     Thomas Laugel, legal interns, Katherine Davis and Lucy Jones.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic, Christopher Gosnell, case manager

20     Negosava Smiljanic, and intern, Philipp Muller.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

23                           WITNESS: GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]

24                           [Witness answered through interpretation]

25                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic:  [Continued]

Page 9647

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, yesterday you spoke about the

 2     signing of that document which was supposed to initiate a cease-fire, and

 3     you also told us that some government members and some other people were

 4     against the signing of that document.  Do you remember any of them, any

 5     of those who were against?

 6        A.   Yesterday I told you that I consulted the government members who

 7     were in Borovo Selo.  However, when I returned to Dalj, a group of people

 8     from Dalj was waiting for me there.  They attacked me, verbally.  The

 9     secretary of the local commune of Dalj, Milan Panisic cursed both me and

10     Milosevic.  He told me that I was stupid, that I didn't understand

11     anything, that I had to insist on signing as the prime minister because,

12     in that case, we would be given statehood and independence.  In my view,

13     it was an utopia, it was nonsense.  But I didn't want to the quarrel when

14     I just left.

15        Q.   After that, what was your relationship with this gentleman whom

16     you have just mentioned?

17        A.   I never quarreled with anybody.  I didn't curse anybody.  I

18     didn't allow anybody to curse me.  That's why I didn't want to talk to

19     him.  From then on, I never even greeted him in passing.  But I did not

20     come across him that often.

21        Q.   Can you please repeat his family name or, rather, his full name

22     for the record.

23        A.   Milan Panisic, nicknamed Miso.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P194.140.  It is tab 152.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday you spoke in great detail about this

Page 9648

 1     document.  Did you try in any way to obtain the original of that document

 2     once you saw it, once you realised that it existed in the course of this

 3     trial?

 4        A.   Yes.  I know that I didn't sign this document.  This order was

 5     impossible.  When I saw the signature, it did seem like my signature, but

 6     it seems to have been executed in two goes; first the name and then the

 7     family name.  That's why I insisted with my Defence team to try and get

 8     hold of the original.  And also I was interested in the origin or the

 9     source of that document, who was it who submitted it.  But then I heard

10     that it was provided by the Prosecutor's office.

11        Q.   And what was the outcome of the search for the original?

12        A.   I heard that there was no original.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D75.  It is tab 728.  It

14     should not be broadcasted.

15             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.  Before you proceed, Mr. Zivanovic, I'm

16     wondering whether the -- this may have been explored when this document

17     was first exhibited, but my question is whether the witness has any

18     comment to make on what appears to be a seal at the left of the signature

19     in the original -- well, the "original" document?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether there is a

21     copy where the seal is more visible.  However, from what I see here, I

22     could not discern the type of seal.

23             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because -- because there were some

25     other documents which were also suspicious.  The seals on them differed

Page 9649

 1     from the one used by the government.  I can't remember whether this seal

 2     is visible or more visible somewhere else.  I -- I'm not sure.

 3             JUDGE HALL:  Thank you.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D75.  It is tab 728.  May we

 5     see next page, please.  In English it is next page, too.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember that we received -- do you

 7     remember that this document was attached to the reply to our request?

 8        A.   Yes, I remember that.

 9        Q.   And that it says that there is no original in the archives, in

10     the state archives, that this document doesn't exist?

11        A.   Yes, this is what it says in this letter.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, object to it.  We object to it,

14     Mr. President.  This witness is not able to provide foundation.  We would

15     need to hear someone -- from someone who was actually involved in

16     searching for it.

17             Thank you.  That's our objection:  No foundation.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't think that there is no foundation for

20     this document.  Many documents were tendered without giving evidence of

21     the author of this document or such document or someone else.  It is

22     document that's -- okay.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

24             MR. STRINGER:  This, Mr. President, is a response from the

25     government of the Republic of Serbia to a Request for Assistance that

Page 9650

 1     went across from the Defence.  So it's not actually providing documents,

 2     which is the normal thing that happens in response to RFAs.  Rather, it's

 3     saying that a document wasn't found.  Any witness could sit in the box

 4     and say, as this witness just did, "Yes, that's what the letter says."

 5     But it doesn't really provide any sort of foundation for us to determine

 6     what, in fact, is the point here, which is whether the letter was found,

 7     where it was looked for, what was done in order to locate it.  And this

 8     witness is not in a position to answer those questions, I don't think,

 9     and that's why, in our view, there is an insufficient foundation for this

10     letter to be admitted for the assertion that the letter is, in fact, not

11     to be found in the possession of the Republic of Serbia.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, do you want to reply?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would just add that this

14     document -- this document clearly, clearly states that such document is

15     not available in the archives of -- in the state archives of Serbia and

16     that we were not able to provide the original to see whether the

17     signature of Mr. Hadzic is authentic on the original of this document or

18     it is -- it was false.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Objection is overruled.  The document is admitted

21     and marked.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, document 1D75 will become

23     Exhibit D128, under seal.  Thank you.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D186.  It is tab 733.  It

25     should not be broadcasted, too.

Page 9651

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember --

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Next page in English.  Or the third page of

 3     English translation.  [Interpretation] We can go to the following page in

 4     the original as well.  I believe that the translated version also needs

 5     to be moved to the following page.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember this very well.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document too.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Just for the record, Mr. President, we object on

 9     the same grounds.  The witness for this is a representative of the

10     government of Serbia.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Noted and overruled.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D129, under seal, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you remember that the government of Slavonia,

16     Baranja, and Western Srem in the summer of 1991 issued a declaration on

17     the general mobilisation of the citizens who were at the time in Serbia,

18     Vojvodina; i.e., in Yugoslavia as a whole?

19        A.   Yes, I remember that.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P166.  It is tab 125.

21     [Microphone not activated].

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   On the screen you can see at the bottom of the original that

25     there was, indeed, a declaration on mobilisation.

Page 9652

 1        A.   Yes, I can see it, but just barely.  Can it be zoomed in?

 2     Because I can only see the title.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Would you scroll down on the original?  Yes.  And

 4     a little bit on right side.  Good.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Do you remember this declaration on general

 6     mobilisation?

 7        A.   Yes, I remember.  It was published in the media.

 8        Q.   Can you tell me why was it that the government declared general

 9     mobilisation at the time?  Was it at a request by a state organ of either

10     Serbia, Yugoslavia, or was there any other reason for that?

11        A.   No, it was nobody's request.  The residents of the district who

12     were there in the territory didn't need any mobilisation.  They were

13     already there, and they responded to the call-up.  But the problem was

14     with the Serbs who had fled leaving behind their homes and mostly elderly

15     parents, whereas they went to Serbia and lived there with their children.

16     They were over 18, mature people, fit for combat.

17             We, the government, knew from their neighbours in those villages

18     that these people were not willing to take care of their homes and

19     elderly parents, and they asked us that we send an appeal through the

20     media for them to return.

21        Q.   And that was the reason why the government made that decision and

22     that proclamation?

23        A.   That was the only reason.  Because it was a big problem.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move into private session, please.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.


Page 9653

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Page 9654











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Page 9674

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12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see 1D3021.  It is tab 1121.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Would -- Mr. Zivanovic, would this be

17     confidential and not to be broadcast?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  I see that it was provided

19     under Rule 70.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is a report dated 8 August 1991 from a meeting held by a

23     Working Group of the Presidency of the SFRY.  Do you know about this

24     meeting?  Because I see it included some representatives of Slavonia,

25     Baranja, and Western Srem.  Do you know this meeting was held?


Page 9675

 1        A.   Yes, I do.  Koncarevic told me later.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Could we scroll down to item 5.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] In paragraph 5, it is said that the persons

 4     detained will be exchanged based on lists previously received by the

 5     commission, and they would be released by 1800 hours and work should be

 6     resumed.  Do you remember, was this decision implemented?

 7        A.   I believe it was.  I don't know if it was in this specific case,

 8     but I believe so.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender 1D3021 into evidence,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D134, Your Honours.  Should it be under

13     seal?

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Under seal, of course.  Thank you.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Microphone not activated].

16             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, just to say that for some of these

17     FBIS articles they were subsequently declassified or the Rule 70

18     protection was lifted.  And that's why some of these are not being --

19     coming into evidence under seal, and so we're going to check on this

20     specific one but it may be that it would no longer be covered by Rule 70.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  We'll hear from you, Mr. Stringer.  Thank

22     you very much.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Hadzic, that on the 16th or 15th of August

25     there was an all-for-all prisoner exchange?

Page 9676

 1        A.   I remember.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see P2988, please.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is tab 667.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It says here that you also attended one meeting at Borovo Selo

11     when this Working Group from the Presidency arrived and that alongside

12     you there were Koncarevic, Petrovic, and Kojic.  Do you recall this

13     meeting?

14        A.   Yes, I remember it because Drazen Budisa and Zivko Milosevic were

15     also there.

16        Q.   Is it true that this all-for-all prisoner exchange, referred to

17     in paragraph 1, took place?

18        A.   Yes, it's true.  But it is not correctly written at the top.  It

19     should be "Jusgo," Zivko Juzbasic and Drazen Budisa.  Zivko Juzbasic and

20     Drazen Budisa.

21        Q.   Tell me, who was holding those prisoners -- or, rather, who

22     decided which people should be exchanged out of the total of prisoners

23     who were held in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

24        A.   It was all decided by federal institutions; that is to say, the

25     Presidency, our government, the federal Executive Council, and the JNA

Page 9677

 1     carried out their decisions.  When I said "our government," I meant the

 2     federal government of Yugoslavia.  That means no comma.  And then in our

 3     record, I see that there is a comma after the words "our government,"

 4     followed by the federal Executive Council, so it looks like there were

 5     several governments involved.  I meant our federal government.  We were

 6     at that time a part of Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Do you recall that the JNA set up a commission to deal with

 8     cease-fires and exchanges of persons detained in interethnic conflicts in

 9     the territory of Croatia?

10        A.   I recall that.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  P2921.  It is tab 656.  P2921.  It is

12     tab [Microphone not activated].  Okay, we'll skip it.  It is not this

13     document.  Yeah.  That's correct.  That's correct document.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] You have seen this document before during the

15     trial.  I'd like to know if you had been aware of the work of this

16     commission?

17        A.   I heard that it had been established, but I didn't have this

18     paper and didn't know any details.  Nobody informed us in any form.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see P2915, please.  It is tab 1310.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] This document deals with an exchange that took

21     place in Klisa.  And if you look at the second paragraph, you will see

22     that, in addition to members of the EU mission and JNA officers, this

23     meeting was also attended by two ministers from the government of SBWS.

24             Can you tell us, what was the role of these ministers, and tell

25     us their names, if you can remember.  But what was their role in these

Page 9678

 1     talks and negotiations about the exchange of prisoners?

 2        A.   On behalf of SBWS, this commission was assisted by

 3     Ilija Koncarevic, but I'm confused when I see this reference to two

 4     ministers from the government.  Koncarevic's job was to make a list of

 5     Serbs based on missing person reports from their families so they could

 6     be exchanged for Croats.  These Serbs were from Vinkovci, Osijek,

 7     et cetera.  So his job was to make the list, or help make the list.  He

 8     had no other role.  And these two ministers, I suppose, were

 9     Slavko Dokmanovic, who was a minister, and Rade Leskovac, who was a

10     deputy minister.  I believe they were at these talks in Klisa because

11     they were making lists of Serbs for the municipality of Vukovar.  Serbs

12     from our villages who were either captured or were left behind on the

13     Croatian side when the war broke out so they couldn't go home anymore.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to look now at

15     document 2955.2913, tab 64.  Could we zoom in on the original a bit,

16     please.

17        Q.   This is about a press conference held on the 19th or 20th

18     September, we can't see the date clearly, where you spoke among other

19     people.  Could we look at what you said there; that is to say, the first

20     two paragraphs.  Sorry, that was after the contribution by Petrovic,

21     paragraph number 5.  No, the fourth paragraph.

22             This is a question put to you by the correspondent of TASS news

23     agency.  It quotes you as saying, I will quote:

24             "... his government offered to the Croatian authorities 20

25     captured members of the guard in exchange for the missing Soviet

Page 9679

 1     journalists ..."

 2             It seems to follow from this that the government of SBWS was

 3     holding some 20 members of the Croatian Home Guards they were offering in

 4     exchange to the Croatian authorities.

 5        A.   The government of SBWS never held a single prisoner.  When I said

 6     "the government," I meant the government of our state, the federal

 7     government.  That's what Ilija Koncarevic told me.  They were offering 20

 8     Croatian Guards.  And the answer from the Croats was that they didn't

 9     know about those two captured Russians.  If they had known, they would

10     have probably exchanged them.

11        Q.   It seems to follow from this text that you said at this

12     conference "my government."  Was this correctly reported?

13        A.   No, it was not.  First of all, I never used the words "my

14     government" even talking about the government of SBWS.  It was not my

15     government.  This reference here is to our federal government.

16        Q.   Since this conference was also filmed and we have seen the

17     footage here in the courtroom, I should like us to look at this again,

18     and I want you to see if you can recognise the words you've uttered then.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is P40, tab 27.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you repeat the document number, please.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is Exhibit P40, tab 27.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab 27 seems to have another exhibit number.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Exhibit number --

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I know -- no, sorry, my mistake.

Page 9680

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yeah.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The issue of western borders of

 4     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is open.  This was said by the

 5     president of the government of these regions, Goran Hadzic, in his talks

 6     with journalists in the Belgrade international press centre.  On this

 7     occasion, he reminded about the proposal of the Serb National Council of

 8     these areas to, if need be, establish this border with the help of moving

 9     Croatian and Serb population in the broader area.

10             "Reporter:  Serb Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and

11     Western Srem is no longer in Croatia.  The issue of western borders is

12     open and the government of this Serb autonomous region advocates a

13     democratic way of solving this and by respecting the will of the people.

14             "Goran Hadzic, president of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem,

15     said this to local and foreign journalists in the international press

16     centre in Belgrade.  Information minister, Ilija Petrovic, reminded the

17     borders, according to the London agreement are Ilova, Moslavina,

18     Virovitica, and then also, at the proposal of the National Council, that

19     the Croatian state assess whether one of the solutions would be moving

20     the Serb and Croatian populations.  When asked by the journalists whether

21     the tanks had been summoned from Belgrade, Goran Hadzic replied:  The

22     tanks belong to the JNA and I can tell you that within the borders of the

23     present Republic of Croatia the JNA is, if not in greater peril, then

24     equally imperilled as the Serb people living there.  They go there to

25     liberate their colleagues, soldiers.

Page 9681

 1             "Reporter:  When asked several times about who was invited to

 2     return to these regions, Hadzic expressed the wish for return not only of

 3     Serbs but of native Croats as well.  Serb people did not endure genocide

 4     by the native Croats but by the colonists Ante Pavlovic brought to

 5     western Herzegovina, Croatian Zagorija and Imotsko.  They were the first

 6     ones to raise arms and mine Serb houses.

 7             "In order to establish a normal life, we will have to present

 8     them with a return ticket.  Hadzic also said Serbia should take care of

 9     women and children refugees and not of able-bodied men.  Stating the data

10     on SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, Goran Hadzic stressed there

11     were 150.000 inhabitants living there and that its capital is Vukovar,

12     which had not been liberated yet, but this does not mean it would not be.

13     Goran Hadzic replied to the TASS reporter that his government offered 20

14     imprisoned guards to Croatian authorities in exchange for two missing

15     Soviet journalists.  Unfortunately, Hadzic said, 'our government does not

16     know where they are.'"

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So my question, Mr. Hadzic, did you hear your own words in this

19     video or your words of the reporter as regards this offer for releasing

20     two Soviet journalists?

21        A.   I heard my words and I said "our government," meaning our federal

22     government.

23        Q.   Did you hear that in the original, your words, or did you hear

24     what the reporter stated?

25        A.   This I heard in the original, "our government," at least that's

Page 9682

 1     the way it seemed to me.  Perhaps we can play it again, just this last

 2     part.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we play perhaps just the

 4     last minute.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, my impression is that this was a woman's voice, so

 8     that's why I'm asking you whether you heard your own voice uttering this

 9     sentence that we mentioned.

10        A.   I apologise.  I was not focused.  I heard it.  It was the comment

11     on the journalist, and it misconveyed the thing that I said earlier on.

12     For Croatia, it was supposed to be "from Imotsko, from Hrvatska Zagorija

13     [phoen]," and the preposition used was different.  And it was "from

14     western Herzegovina," not "into western Herzegovina."

15        Q.   Just one more question.  Do you know that exchanges of prisoners

16     were carried out during September and October?  I mean in general.  That

17     they were carried out from when this decision of the Presidency was made

18     and onwards.

19        A.   I know that they were carried out.  And sporadically I was

20     informed about this by Ilija Koncarevic, in terms of informal reports

21     because he was not a member of the government.

22        Q.   According to the information that we have here, that you are

23     aware of, on the 25th of September the government of Slavonia, Baranja,

24     and Western Srem was elected.  Since you were the prime minister

25     designate for that government, could you tell us how it was that you

Page 9683

 1     selected the people who you would propose as candidates for membership in

 2     that future government?

 3        A.   There were major problems involved for me personally.  I had to

 4     meet certain requirements that were almost incompatible.  First of all,

 5     territorial representation.  But then also there should be

 6     professionalism, too.  And often that was impossible to meet both

 7     requirements.  So, as for all three parts of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 8     Western Srem, we wanted to have these three biggest parts represented,

 9     and then within these separate parts there should be representation of

10     practically every village or every group of villages because it's

11     different.  If we, the so-called ministers, were to be elected in a

12     different way, this would have caused great dissatisfaction among the

13     population.  So we needed people who were professionals but we also

14     needed people who came from certain parts of the territory.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   The candidates that you put forth, were all of these candidates

18     members of the SDS?

19        A.   They were not because membership in the SDS was not the main

20     precondition or requirement.

21        Q.   As prime minister of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, did you

22     have the authority to issue orders to some members of the government or,

23     rather, to the ministers?

24        A.   I did not have any possibilities because I and the ministers were

25     elected by the assembly, and we were held accountable by the assembly and

Page 9684

 1     we made decisions by voting at government sessions, and then these

 2     decisions had to be carried through.

 3        Q.   Could you perhaps remove a particular minister from his position?

 4        A.   I could not.  If that minister would not agree with that, then it

 5     would have to be done by the assembly.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see L15, please.  It is tab 1190.  I think

 7     it is -- this translation does not correspond to the decision on election

 8     of the president, vice-presidents, and members of the government.

 9     Anyway, we can remove it from the screen.  And --

10        Q.   [Interpretation] I'm going to ask you about ministers who were in

11     that government.  I'm going to ask you to tell us a few words about them.

12     One of the deputy prime ministers was Dr. Mladen Hadzic.  Could you

13     please tell us whether you knew him; and, if so, from when?

14        A.   Yes, I knew him.  Mladen Hadzic originally hails from my village,

15     but after he got his degree in medicine he no longer lived in Pacetin.

16     He lived in Borovo Naselje.  And then in the 1980s, he built a house in

17     Tenja near Osijek.  He moved to Tenja and lived there.  He was president

18     of the Serb Democratic Party in Tenja, of the local committee in Tenja.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Just to inform my learned friend that if he would

20     like to go to the decisions on election of the president and the

21     government, those are in L1 at page 16 of the English.  That's the

22     complete Gazette for the period and it has all those decisions.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you to the Prosecution.

24             If we may see L1, page 16 in English.

25             MR. STRINGER:  I may have misspoke.  That's the election of the

Page 9685

 1     president of the Great National Assembly I see, but the decision

 2     appointing the president of the government is at page 25.  So that may be

 3     more in the area of the document.  Apologies.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  That's it.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us since Dr. Mladen

 6     Hadzic had the same last name, like you, were you related?

 7        A.   We had not been related over the past 200 years.  Perhaps 300

 8     years ago we were blood relations.

 9        Q.   The second person on this list is Dragan Sabljakovic.  Can you

10     tell us something about him?

11        A.   He was elected vice-president or vice premier on behalf of the

12     local commune of Markusica.  That is the biggest village in that part

13     between Vinkovci and Osijek, and he did not really have any kind of

14     professional education that would make him eligible for minister, so he

15     was deputy prime minister in order to be able to deal with certain

16     organisational matters.

17        Q.   Ilija Kojic is the first one on this list of ministers.  We've

18     heard quite a bit about him already.  Can you tell us whether he was a

19     member of the Serb Democratic Party?

20        A.   I do not have any information about him being a member of the

21     SDS, so that means he wasn't.  In Vukovar he wasn't.  He certainly wasn't

22     a member of the Serb Democratic Party.

23        Q.   The second is Borislav Bogunovic.  I believe that we've heard a

24     lot about him so I won't be asking about him.

25             The third is Bogdan Vojnovic.  Can you tell us something about

Page 9686

 1     him?

 2        A.   I knew Bogdan Vojnovic; I knew him by name.  He was the head of

 3     finance at Vupik.  He was the best finance guy in the municipality of

 4     Vukovar.  That was his reputation.  That's why I tried to find him, and I

 5     did, and I asked him whether he would serve as minister, and he accepted

 6     the suggestion.  He was not a member of the party.

 7        Q.   The next one is Vitomir Devetak.  Again, can you tell us

 8     something about him?  Just briefly?

 9        A.   After Vukasin Soskocanin was killed, he was the president of the

10     local commune of Borovo Selo.  Since Borovo Selo was the village with the

11     highest number of population of all the villages in the area, they - and

12     I mean the local commune - put forth the names of the people who were

13     ministers or who would be ministers.  Devetak was one of the three of

14     them.  He was put forth by people in Borovo Selo.

15        Q.   The next one is Slavko Dokmanovic.  Can you tell us something

16     about him, briefly?  Missed a request colloquy?

17        A.   He was the former president of Vukovar municipality.  He was an

18     agronomist from Trpinja, and he was not a member of the SDS.

19        Q.   Vojin Susa.

20        A.   He was a refugee from Vinkovci.  Before the war, he was the

21     assistant public prosecutor in Vinkovci.  Together with a group of

22     lawyers, he arrived in Dalj.  Most of them were from Vukovar; i.e., from

23     the municipality of Vukovar.  They had agreed amongst themselves who

24     could be the minister of justice, who could be the public prosecutor, and

25     who could be president of the courts.  I was not an expert, and I still

Page 9687

 1     don't know anything about the law and judiciary, so I really did not

 2     question their proposals.  I accepted that Susa should become minister of

 3     justice, that Milos Vojnovic would be elected the president of a court.

 4     But that was later.  Their plan was already on the table.  They had

 5     drafted it amongst themselves.

 6             I'm not sure that Susa was a member of the SDS in Vinkovci.  He

 7     may well have been, but I don't know.  I never spoke to him as a party

 8     member.  We were friends from school.

 9        Q.   Dr. Mladen Jovic.  Dr. Mladen Jovic.

10        A.   He was a physician from Borovo Selo.  He came with the package,

11     as it were.  He was one on the list of the villagers of Borovo Selo.  In

12     Borovo Selo, there were a lot of Serbs who were not natives.  They had

13     moved from Bosna.  They had to be represented, and their representative

14     was Jovic.

15        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   I believe that you've spoken about Ilija Petrovic at great length

19     already.  Can you tell us something about Milan Knezevic?

20        A.   Milan Knezevic was a teacher from Baranja.  He was a member of

21     the Socialist Party of Croatia.  He wore a double hat.  He represented

22     Baranja as well as the Socialist Party of Croatia.  So those two

23     requirements were met in one person.

24        Q.   Borivoje Milenkovic.

25        A.   He was from Dalj.  He was elected as a minister at the proposal

Page 9688

 1     of people from Dalj to represent them.

 2        Q.   Pajo Nedic.

 3        A.   He was from Bobota.  He was a member of the Serbian Democratic

 4     Party.  The locals of Bobota agreed that he should be minister.

 5        Q.   Bogdan Vorkapic.

 6        A.   He was from Vukovar.  He was a refugee in Prigrevica.  He had

 7     arrived from Prigrevica at Dalj and became a minister.  So he was not

 8     there when we sent out call-up papers.  We called him personally because

 9     we needed him because he -- his professional profile fit the

10     requirements.

11        Q.   Was he a member of the SDS?

12        A.   Bogdan Vorkapic was not a member of the SDS.  He never joined the

13     SDS.  He was a member of the socialist party, just like Milan Knezevic.

14     He supported Martic in the elections and not me; so, in other words, he

15     was my political opponent.

16        Q.   Dr. Caslav Ocic.

17        A.   Dr. Caslav Ocic had a PhD in economics.  He hailed from Dalj but

18     lived in Belgrade.  He belonged to the group of Serbs who were supposed

19     to open a door for us in Belgrade in a way.  Since Dalj is second largest

20     village only to Borovo Selo, it gave two ministers:  Caslav Ocic and

21     Boro Milenkovic.  That was also a proposal by the locals of Dalj.  Later

22     on he became a member of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts.

23        Q.   Was he a member of the SDS?

24        A.   I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

25        Q.   Miomir Crnogorac.

Page 9689

 1        A.   He was my friend from Pacetin.  We went to school together.

 2        Q.   The last on the list is Stevo Bogic.

 3        A.   He was from Borovo Selo.  He came as a part of the package,

 4     together with Jovic and Devetak.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us about the influence of the

 6     government; i.e., could the government exert any influence on the

 7     developments in the territory of SBWS?

 8        A.   That influence was negligible, if there was any at all.  We did

 9     not have any technical capabilities and that really paints a very good

10     picture of the whole situation.

11        Q.   And what about the financial situation.  What were the

12     governments financial resources?  Did it have a budget?

13        A.   According to what I know, when we were established -- or, rather,

14     in those first few days or the first few months of our work, our bottom

15     line was zero.

16        Q.   Did you and the other ministers receive any salaries?  How much

17     were they?

18        A.   In the course of 1991, I did not receive a single salary, and I

19     believe that the same was true for all the other ministers.  Nobody was

20     paid for what they did.

21        Q.   Did the government control any armed forces that would have been

22     in a position to possibly enforce law or implement measures passed by the

23     government?

24        A.   The government of the SBWS did not have any armed forces under

25     its control.  It didn't have any men under arms that it might have

Page 9690

 1     controlled, no.

 2        Q.   We've had an occasion to hear in this courtroom that there was a

 3     service known as the Serbian national security.  That service was headed

 4     by Stevo Bogic, who was directly subordinated to you.  Is that correct?

 5        A.   This is not correct.  Stevo Bogic was a minister without a

 6     portfolio, and he was equal to me and all the others.  He was elected by

 7     the assembly.  I was the first among the equals.  He was not subordinated

 8     to me.  I could not give him any orders.  And as far as his duties are

 9     concerned, in addition to the political ones that he had, he assumed a

10     responsibility to set up a security service around the government

11     building.  That meant around-the-clock security detail in three shifts.

12     And if a minister had to travel or be transferred somewhere, they had to

13     be escorted or even driven because the ministers didn't have cars.  If

14     only one car was available, then a driver had to drive it.  So it was

15     more to do with driving people around than to provide security.

16        Q.   You said that he organised the security detail for the

17     government.  What do you know about the functioning of the government's

18     security detail?  What was it?  How many people were involved?  What did

19     they do?  How they did it?  As far as you can remember.

20        A.   In 1991, I was not in Slavonia and Baranja very often.  In

21     October, I was there only on two or three occasions, for two or three

22     days.  According to what I learned subsequently, Bogic established the

23     security detail and recruited people from Borovo Selo mostly.  According

24     to what I know, there could not have been more than seven, eight, or nine

25     of them; three in each of the shifts.

Page 9691

 1        Q.   When they worked, when they were on a shift, where were they, the

 2     three men that you just mentioned?  Where would they spend their working

 3     hours, as it were?

 4        A.   Out at the entrance into the manor and at the entrance into the

 5     courtyard.  I don't know how things were organised during the night

 6     because I didn't go there during the night.  Some of them even drove

 7     Stevo Bogic around.  I used to see one or two of them with him outside

 8     Erdut, even.

 9        Q.   Do you know where they were billeted?  Where did they sleep?

10        A.   I never entered those rooms.  However, there were two rooms there

11     where they could sleep.

12        Q.   You knew the people who were there who were standing guard around

13     the government building.  Did any of you [as interpreted] provide your

14     security in 1991, 1992, and 1993?

15        A.   No, I did not have a security detail.  I didn't know them well at

16     the time.  I just greeted them at the entrance.  I would just say good

17     morning to them.

18        Q.   I believe that your answer was not precise.  You said that you

19     didn't have a security detail.  I asked you whether any of those men who

20     secured the government facilities was part of your security detail.

21        A.   No.  I had my security guards and it was none of them.  When I

22     attended government sessions, in formal terms, they were standing in

23     front of the government building where the session was being held, but

24     that had nothing to do with me.

25        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

Page 9692

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You said that in the month of August 1991, Radovan Stojicic,

 5     Badza, came to SBWC [as interpreted] to take over the Territorial Defence

 6     and the police together with his unit.  Did you - and I mean the

 7     government - have any impact on their actions?

 8        A.   No, we couldn't influence their actions at all.

 9        Q.   Were you able to influence Territorial Defence units that existed

10     there or maybe the police that he took over?  I mean, both you personally

11     and the government.

12        A.   We neither wanted to nor were -- nor had we the technical

13     capacity to do it.  And we didn't influence them at all.  I can explain

14     why we were technically unable.

15        Q.   Please go ahead.

16        A.   Mostly because the government in Erdut had only one telephone

17     which was connected to the Serbian network.  It had a Belgrade telephone

18     number.  So we were able to communicate only with businesses in Serbia

19     and families in Serbia.  We were not able to use that telephone to

20     contact people in SBWS.

21             In the beginning, in September, only I had a car, a very old car

22     that a Novi Sad bank gave me for my personal use.  None of the other

23     ministers had cars.  But even that car was inadequate because we needed

24     an all-terrain vehicle to reach many villages.  I had to go across

25     fields.  So we had no communication with villages, with headquarters,

Page 9693

 1     with staffs.  We didn't even have a fax machine.  And even a fax machine

 2     wouldn't help us much because there were no fax machines on the other end

 3     in villages because there was no power.  So we had no contact with these

 4     institutions and we couldn't influence them even if we had wanted to.  It

 5     was all under Badza.

 6        Q.   What was that situation with Arkan and his Volunteers Guard?

 7     Were you able to exert any influence on them?  Were you able to give them

 8     any orders or instructions?

 9        A.   We couldn't give them any orders or instructions, nor have I ever

10     done that.  They were either with Badza or with the military.  They had

11     no connection to our government.

12        Q.   When you talked about the relationship -- or, rather, the

13     communication between your government and villages, could you tell us

14     what was it like in Pacetin in 1992?  Did any Territorial Defence exist

15     there?  How did it operate?  To whom was it subordinated?

16        A.   Considering that I myself am from Pacetin, I know what the

17     situation was like there.  In the early days when the village guards were

18     formed, it was done independently, autonomously, or rather I should say

19     spontaneously.  As president of the local commune, I participated in

20     their organisation and the entire Executive Council over which I

21     presided, we were five or six members.  It wasn't even called the

22     Territorial Defence.  It was later called the Village Defence Staff.

23             In the beginning, we would stand guard in the centre of the

24     village, and as the situation became more and more serious, we also

25     placed guards along streets.  So the village was open.  Anybody who

Page 9694

 1     wanted to could pass, but people were just standing there, watching out

 2     for larger numbers of vehicles or buses because we were afraid of an

 3     attack.

 4             Later what I was practically blocked in Vukovar and could not

 5     longer return to Pacetin, I didn't dare to travel to Pacetin because I

 6     could be trapped there.  I couldn't drive back in any weather.  I didn't

 7     have a car that could travel on mud tracks.  So later on my deputy took

 8     over those duties.

 9             Very soon in August when the army got involved more openly in

10     that conflict, some unit from Nis arrived at Pacetin, according to the

11     information I have, led by some colonel who took over the entire defence

12     effort and all the rest.  This is my indirect knowledge.

13        Q.   When you say this colonel of that unit from Nis took over, do you

14     mean a JNA unit?

15        A.   Of course.  He was a colonel of the Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

16        Q.   Could you tell us more precisely, what do you mean by "took

17     over"?

18        A.   It means that the village guards and all the rest of the village

19     organisation didn't have any purpose anymore.  It was all placed under

20     the command of the JNA.  Maybe it's better to say under single command.

21        Q.   Do you have any information as to the situation in other

22     villages?  Was it similar to Pacetin or was it different somewhere?

23        A.   From what I learned later, it was identical.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Mr. President, I think it is the time for a

25     break.

Page 9695

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If that's convenient for you, Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             Court adjourned.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

 4                           [The witness stands down]

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6                           --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] About these village guards, these units, these

10     defence staffs, and staffs of Territorial Defence, did they submit any

11     reports on their work to the government or you?

12        A.   They did not, either to the government or myself.

13        Q.   Can you tell us what was the relationship between the government

14     and the civilian local authorities, such as Executive Councils, in the

15     municipalities of SBWS?

16        A.   This situation was slightly idiosyncratic because Baranja

17     remained intact and they were autonomous.  The Executive Council

18     functioned in Baranja independently without any consultations with the

19     government.  With the appointment of the president of their Executive

20     Council, we only formally confirmed it because he was elected by their

21     local assembly before any decision was made by the government.  It was

22     only after the liberation of Vukovar, I don't know how many days after

23     the liberation, we proposed the president of the Executive Council for

24     the municipality of Vukovar, and we appointed presidents also for

25     Mirkovci village and Dalj later.  These four municipalities, save for

Page 9696

 1     Baranja, were also in the process of being established, just like the

 2     government was, and they were not able to start working immediately.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please D41.  It is tab 1236.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us to what extent was

 5     it possible for you to move at that time throughout the territory of

 6     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

 7        A.   In addition to all the technical problems I described before the

 8     break - namely, that we had no resources, no cars, no fuel - there was

 9     also the practical problem that because of the military rule throughout

10     the territory of SBWS, we were not able to move freely around the

11     district, and there were also combat zones where we couldn't go at all

12     because the Croatian army was there.  So it was practically impossible.

13     We could not even reach Western Srem.  And in Eastern Slavonia, we

14     somehow managed to pass through towards Dalj and Borovo Selo; although,

15     in the early days, we also faced huge problems there.

16        Q.   What were the problems you encountered as you tried to move

17     through the district?

18        A.   The JNA set up check-points all over the district and it was

19     necessary to have a permit to pass through.  At some stage it became

20     ridiculous, because every check-point asked for a different permit.  Some

21     ministers had to turn back and find a new permit before they were allowed

22     to continue on their way.  Sometimes you needed three different permits

23     to go from my village, Pacetin, to Erdut.  But that was later resolved.

24     Things improved with time.

25        Q.   On the screen we can now see one document from the JNA granting

Page 9697

 1     permits for movement in the combat zones.  In this respect, did members

 2     of the government of SBWS have any preferential treatment as officials?

 3     Did JNA treat them better in this respect than regular citizens?

 4        A.   In the early stages of the functioning of our government, we were

 5     treated all the same as any other citizens.  We didn't have any

 6     preferential treatment.  It didn't improve much over time.  The only

 7     thing is that we had better communication in one part of the district

 8     between Bogota, Dalj, and Borovo Selo.

 9        Q.   We see in this document that it is not allowed to move around at

10     night across the bridge towards Bogota -- sorry, Bogojevo without a

11     permit.  Was this applied?  Was this enforced?

12        A.   Yes, it was enforced.  But I didn't get any papers from them.

13     And this is the first time, in fact, after I came to The Hague that I saw

14     these documents.  At that time, I didn't receive any documents from the

15     JNA.

16        Q.   Did you ask for an explanation, did you ask for this treatment to

17     change, to allow you to move around freely?

18        A.   Well, ministers approached me every day describing the problems

19     they had.  And then I would contact the military command in Belgrade, and

20     I talked to Kadijevic, and I managed, after surmounting many obstacles,

21     to see him.  But he showed so little understanding for our problems that

22     my visit was futile, and I thought that I would get more understanding

23     from Blagoje Adzic.  But with him, it was exactly the same story as with

24     Kadijevic.

25             To this day, I don't know why they treated us that way.  And only

Page 9698

 1     after the testimony of Aco Vasiljevic did I begin to understand why.

 2        Q.   What was it that you understood from his testimony?

 3        A.   I realised that they also had a feeling that I refused to

 4     co-operate with them, that I did not accept their officers, which is not

 5     true, because their officers never offered me any co-operation.  It was

 6     not possible to co-operate because after that story with Nenezic, I

 7     didn't have any contact with officers.

 8        Q.   You mentioned General Kadijevic and General Adzic.  As you know,

 9     they had been marked as participants in the joint criminal enterprise.

10     This is what I'd like to ask you.  Apart from these meetings with both

11     that you mentioned, what kind of contacts did you have with them,

12     generally speaking, if any?

13        A.   These were contacts at my own initiative and they were very

14     brief.  I don't know if I ever stayed more than 15 or 20 minutes with

15     either one of them.  Later on I just saw them when they attended meetings

16     of the Presidency concerning the Vance Plan, and then I never saw them

17     again.  And I didn't talk to them then.  That was a big meeting.  There

18     were perhaps 30 of us there, or perhaps there were even 50 participants.

19        Q.   Since you mentioned these contacts that went on for 15 or 20

20     minutes, does that relate to the contacts that you mentioned a moment ago

21     concerning freedom of movement through the region?

22        A.   Yes, these are the contacts where they refused me.  They barely

23     listened to me.

24        Q.   Did you have any other communication apart from that with them?

25        A.   I never had any other communication with them.  I didn't have

Page 9699

 1     their telephone numbers.  I had no communication with them whatsoever.

 2        Q.   You have already spoken about that contact, that telephone

 3     conversation with Slobodan Milosevic when the cease-fire agreement was

 4     supposed to be signed in September 1991.  Could you tell us now what kind

 5     of contacts did you have with him before that or after that?

 6        A.   I've already mentioned that before that I had one contact.

 7     Perhaps in the month of September in 1991 when Professor Raskovic called

 8     me from Knin to be on this delegation of the Serb Democratic Party.  I

 9     was the only person then from Slavonia, Baranja, and from Knin.  Almost

10     the entire Executive Board had come.  Perhaps there were even 40 of them.

11     He stood at the door then, we walked in, we all shook hands.  As a matter

12     of fact, I didn't even introduce myself by my name and surname.  Perhaps

13     just my surname.  I didn't even say anything.

14             As for that entire delegation, I think it was only Babic who

15     spoke.  That was not a long meeting either.  That was the only time I saw

16     him; the first time and the only time.  After that, he phoned me after --

17     actually, during Wijnaendts' visit, and my understanding was that he

18     called me because Wijnaendts had called him, telling him that I did not

19     want to sign that.

20             The next time I received a call from his office was when I was

21     told that I should come to Belgrade in order to agree on this trip to

22     Paris to the Dutch embassy there.  I'm not sure whether it was to Paris

23     or The Hague, but it was at the initiative of Henry Wijnaendts.  I did

24     not see him then.  Babic and I met on the ground floor of this Presidency

25     building so that we would agree how we would travel.  We talked to his

Page 9700

 1     chief of protocol, Milosevic's chief of protocol.

 2        Q.   I'm interested in this first meeting with Slobodan Milosevic,

 3     where you say that there was a big delegation consisting of 40 persons.

 4     Can you tell us what it was that was discussed then during that meeting?

 5        A.   Well, this had to do with that TV video-clip about Spegelj and

 6     this panic among the Serb people.  He tried to pacify us in a way, not to

 7     have any kind of exodus take place, that there should be no panic either,

 8     that the JNA could protect us.  But I'm not sure that there were any

 9     particular results there because this wasn't even discussed afterwards.

10        Q.   At that meeting, did he address you directly?

11        A.   No, he didn't even know who I was at the time and I didn't really

12     matter.  I think he didn't know any one of us except for Babic.  Babic

13     was the president of the municipality of Knin, so perhaps he was well

14     known.  But the rest of us were all anonymous.  I'm not sure

15     Professor Raskovic was with us.  I'm not sure.  I think it was only

16     Babic.

17        Q.   The other time when you came to the building where his office was

18     and when you talked to that chief of protocol, can you tell us what this

19     conversation consisted of, what the topic of this conversation was?

20        A.   Well, the topic was preparing our trip for this meeting with

21     Henry Wijnaendts and agreeing on the air flights, et cetera, because the

22     federal government made it possible for us to travel by plane.  This was

23     agreed upon with the representatives of the European community, Henry

24     Wijnaendts and Geert Ahrens.  Because we had to fly from Belgrade.  We

25     did not have an airport in our territory.

Page 9701

 1        Q.   Could you just repeat this name, Henry ...

 2        A.   Henry Wijnaendts, or Wijnaendts, and Geert Ahrens.  Mr. Ahrens.

 3     Ahrens.

 4        Q.   After that during 1991 and 1992, did you see Slobodan Milosevic?

 5        A.   After returning from one of these meetings that we went to, I

 6     don't know if it was Paris or The Hague, we were asked to come to see

 7     Milosevic.  Babic was with me, and Caslav Ocic, who was my minister of

 8     foreign affairs in our government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

 9     I'm not sure about this, but I think he was Babic's foreign minister,

10     too, that was there.  Professor Lazo Matsura.  I'm not 100 per cent sure

11     about him, but I think he was there.  I saw then that Caslav Ocic knew

12     them.  They knew each other from the days of communism, because Caslav

13     was a member of the city organisation of the League of Communists, but

14     they were on two opposing sides in that conflict.  I saw that they were

15     not on very good terms, that they did not agree very much.  But this is

16     just a digression.  It really has nothing to do with what I've been

17     testifying about.

18             Then Milosevic, after certain polite introductory remarks, said

19     that the war should be over and that the Serbs in Croatia should get a

20     status that would protect their rights.  As he said, a type of executive,

21     legislative, and parliamentary government and that this should be done

22     within Croatia and that that would be a good thing for all.  And that we

23     should give this some thought.

24        Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting.  You mentioned three branches of

25     government.  Could you please repeat the ones that he mentioned to you.

Page 9702

 1        A.   The executive, the legislative, and the judiciary.  And our human

 2     rights should be protected and physically we should be protected, too.

 3     Along with international guarantees.

 4             Henry Wijnaendts, already in the couloirs of the meeting in Paris

 5     at the Dutch embassy there had suggested that to me, asking me what I

 6     thought about that.  I said that I could accept that, but that he should

 7     first agree on that with Mr. Babic, because it would be hard for one side

 8     to accept that and the other one not so that would be a problem.  Because

 9     then they could declare me a traitor, and then I said in jest I would

10     have nowhere to go to.

11             So when I heard Milosevic, I realised that he and Wijnaendts had

12     already agreed on that because they had almost the same views as those

13     that were communicated to me by Wijnaendts, because Wijnaendts said that

14     to me at a smaller table that was close to the dining table where we had

15     all been eating.  So it was only the two of us at this small table and

16     nobody else heard this.

17             At this meeting with Milosevic, after all of these things were

18     said, Babic changed his mood visibly.  He got angry, and we quickly ended

19     the meeting and left.  I'm not sure now whether we had a press conference

20     scheduled that afternoon or whether Babic hurried to schedule one.  At

21     any rate, we went to a press conference and Babic said that individuals

22     from Serbia were pressuring us to remain in Croatia.  I'm paraphrasing

23     now.  He said something along those lines.  And it was obvious to the

24     journalists, too, that that had been Milosevic.  And then Milosevic said

25     that we should agree on that.  And now he said this without seeking any

Page 9703

 1     kind of agreement with me and that was unpleasant for me.  And he said,

 2     "Ask Mr. Hadzic if you think that is not correct."

 3             So I made no special comment.  Because he said that without

 4     seeking any kind of agreement with me - I mean, Babic.

 5        Q.   After this, did you have any other meetings with

 6     Slobodan Milosevic?

 7        A.   During 1991, I did not.  I never met with him on my own.  It's

 8     not that he ever received me only.  I think that Babic and I came

 9     together when people started talking about the Vance Plan.  And then he

10     sent us to the government of Serbia to talk to some general, a retired

11     general, who was head of a UN mission in Egypt.  He would explain to us

12     what the blue helmets were, how they operated, what their function was,

13     and so on, so that I could learn more about that.  Slavko Jovic was the

14     name of that general.

15             Further on in 1991, I was called a few times, not too many times,

16     by Mr. Milosevic's secretary, first for a meeting with Marrack Goulding,

17     the envoy for the secretary-general of UN, and after that Mr. Cyrus

18     Vance, who the special envoy of the secretary-general of the UN.  This

19     was -- this discussion of the Vance Plan, concerning the adoption of the

20     Vance Plan.  In President Milosevic's office, once we were with Goulding,

21     and this other time at the villa of the government of Serbia.  It was

22     called Boticeva Vila [phoen], and that is its name today as well.  It is

23     in Dedinje.  Botic.  Botic.  The Botic villa.

24        Q.   In the indictment, Milan Martic is also mentioned as one of the

25     participants of the joint criminal enterprise.  Can you tell us when it

Page 9704

 1     was that you met him and can you tell us about your relationship with

 2     him?

 3        A.   Well, Milan Martic once came to Borovo Selo briefly to visit as

 4     minister of the SAO Krajina.  He knew some active policemen who were from

 5     Vukovar and he was there as their guest.  I saw him by chance there, and

 6     I met him, was introduced, and chatted for about five minutes perhaps.

 7     The second time I saw him was at a meeting of the Presidency of the SFRY

 8     concerning the acceptance of the Vance Plan.  I don't remember seeing him

 9     otherwise.

10        Q.   How did your relations develop later?

11        A.   Later I saw him at the assembly in Borovo Selo when the single

12     republic of the Serb Krajina was formed and when I became president, and

13     he was a minister in Zecevic's government.  So I had a correct

14     relationship with him, or rather no particular relationship.  He was a

15     minister in the government, I was the president of the republic, so we

16     really had no points in common.

17        Q.   And later?

18        A.   Later we co-operated within the Supreme Defence Council when I

19     was in Knin, but I wasn't in Knin very often.  However, soon we clashed

20     and, in my view, neither Martic nor I are to be blamed for that clash.

21        Q.   Can you tell us about the nature of that conflict?  What was this

22     clash about?

23        A.   It escalated at this assembly session at Beli Manastir.  But it

24     began while I was attending negotiations in New York after the Croatian

25     operation Maslenica.  There were technical people on my delegation

Page 9705

 1     alongside myself, such as interpreters and members of our bureau, from

 2     Krajina, and they were in communication with the employees of the bureau

 3     who remained in Belgrade.  And they received by fax a copy of an article

 4     from "Vecernje Novosti," a Belgrade newspaper, and one of the biggest

 5     head lines was about a statement given by Martic where he said Hadzic is

 6     promoting his own interests in New York, neglecting the people, and it

 7     was basically an attack on me by Martic.  I called him on an open

 8     unsecure line from the US, and I asked, "Mile, what's the problem?"  And

 9     he says, "You said about me that I am dense, stupid."  I never said such

10     a thing.  So I asked, "Who told you that?"  He said, "Some people from

11     Belgrade told me, and I'm sure they're not lying."  And that was the

12     first step of our conflict.

13             And it escalated after the so-called Croatian operation at

14     Velebit, when Milan Martic off his own bat de-mined part of a minefield.

15     I don't mean he did it himself.  His police did it without the knowledge

16     of the army or Mile Novakovic.  That night the Croatian police took

17     advantage of that open space, raided our territory, and perpetrated a

18     massacre.  They killed or slaughtered 19 of our fighting men in Lika.

19             I told him he didn't have any right to do that and he has no

20     right, nor does anybody, to do anything of their own initiative in a

21     combat zone.  Of course, he didn't answer anything.  He didn't deny it,

22     but he attacked me personally.  That conflict escalated even further with

23     the elections.

24        Q.   Can you tell us something about your relationship with

25     Milan Babic, who is also named as one of the participants in the joint

Page 9706

 1     criminal enterprise:  How long did you know him and how did your

 2     relationship evolve?

 3        A.   I met Milan Babic in May 1990 when, together with Boro Savic and

 4     another two of my friends, went to see Professor Raskovic to agree about

 5     the establishing of the SDS Vukovar.  The professor met us in the

 6     municipal building in the office of Milan Babic.  But Babic was not on

 7     the cabinet at that time, not yet, because everybody knows he's a -- he

 8     was a late sleeper, so he came after he got up around noon.  And by that

 9     time we had finished talking, Dr. Raskovic and me, so I just exchanged

10     greetings with him.  We parted ways politically very soon after that

11     because I was in the same camp as Professor Raskovic and he was in a

12     different faction.

13        Q.   Another person cited in the indictment is Jovica Stanisic.  Can

14     you tell us something about him?

15        A.   In 1991, I had no information on him whatsoever.  His name

16     cropped up sometime in 1991, but I had not met with him ever.

17        Q.   You also heard the testimony of Witness GH-002, who said that in

18     1991 both you and he attended certain meetings with Stanisic.  Is that

19     correct?  I don't know if you know who GH-002 is.

20        A.   I'm thinking.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move into private session for the moment,

22     please.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I think we missed a part of your

24     last intervention.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  I asked for the private session, Your


Page 9707

 1     Honours.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

 3                           [Private session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Could you just repeat, because it was not --

13        A.   Yes.  I had no meeting with Jovica Stanisic or a joint meeting

14     with GH-002 and Jovica Stanisic, but I can tell you how that witness came

15     up with that and why he said it, if you're interested.

16        Q.   Please.

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 9708

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4        Q.   Can you tell us how you met Franko Simatovic?

 5        A.   I didn't meet him in 1990, for sure.  I even think that I didn't

 6     know him at all in the period for which I was indicted, 1992, 1993.  I

 7     met him quite by chance in Ilok.  One of my relatives stopped by in the

 8     street to greet me and she is the one who introduced us.  But I'm not

 9     100 per cent sure.  That was in 1994.  And I met him once again in a

10     restaurant in Zemun.  I don't know which of these encounters took place

11     first, but I never co-operated with him.  I never had any official

12     meetings with him.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, Your Honours, I'm just warned that one --

14     our exhibit was -- was erroneously marked as 1D3658 at the page 25,

15     line 22, of the transcript.  And it was admitted into evidence as D130.

16     The exact number of this document is 1D3568.

17                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's noted, Mr. Zivanovic.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The next in the group is Vojislav Seselj.  When did you meet

21     Mr. Seselj?  What kind of relationship did you have with him?

22        A.   On the 9th March, there was a rally in Serbia.  Vojislav Seselj

23     was already a deputy.  He -- and he appeared as a guest in Slavonia.  He

24     toured Serbian villages.  He was in Pacetin as well.  That's when I saw

25     him first.

Page 9709

 1                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's when I saw him, and I got to

 3     know him in a way, although I'm not even sure that he remembers me from

 4     that event.  But I remember him.  He was already a famous person.  Since

 5     I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party and he was in the Serbian

 6     Radical Party, he always showed animosity towards me.  Whenever he came

 7     to Slavonia and Baranja, he had people with him who sided with him and he

 8     was very arrogant towards the rest of us.  Later on we even had an open

 9     conflict, but that's a different story.

10                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Would you be able to tell us something about the conflict.  What

13     was the conflict with Seselj about?

14        A.   It started when I supported the peace plan.  The so-called

15     Vance-Owen Plan of the international community for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16     There was a rally at the Sava congress centre where he attacked me and

17     insulted me from the stage.  I don't know why to this very day.  I never

18     communicated with him after that, or at least not until the moment we

19     were both detained here in The Hague.

20        Q.   I've already asked you about Stojicic and Kadijevic, as well as

21     Adzic.  There are two more names that we have not discussed at all.  One

22     of them is Radmilo Bogdanovic.  Did you know him?

23        A.   Radmilo Bogdanovic was the minister of the interior of Serbia,

24     and later he was the president of a security council of some sort.  I

25     remember that, but I don't remember that I ever actually met him in

Page 9710

 1     person.

 2        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Will you please repeat what Mr. Bogdanovic became once he was no

 7     longer the minister of the interior.

 8        A.   I learnt that from the media.  He was the president of the

 9     assembly committee on security in the Serbian assembly where he was an

10     MP.

11        Q.   And the last name is that of Mihalj Kertes.

12        A.   Mihalj Kertes married a girl from my village.  However, that

13     woman, or, rather, her parents lived in Ilok.  She was born in Ilok

14     herself but her father hails from my village.  Her father is my aunt's

15     brother or my uncle's wife's brother.  We are not blood relatives, in

16     other words, but we knew each other.  I was not on very good terms with

17     Kertes, to put it mildly.  We almost did not communicate after that

18     meeting in Backa Palanka which took place in May when he cursed everybody

19     who spoke to Koncarevic and Petrovic who were in communication with the

20     two of them.  I continued communicating with both Koncarevic and

21     Petrovic.  I didn't want to listen to Kertes, and he held it against me.

22     Later on a majority of the attacks on me and slander came from that

23     source.  You will remember when I mentioned Trivo Ivkovic and others.  If

24     it were not tragic, it would be funny.  Those anecdotes involved 50

25     pistols, millions of German marks, and so on and so forth, and they all

Page 9711

 1     come from the same source.

 2        Q.   I'm not going to mention the last name on the list.  It's the

 3     same of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.  You've already said quite a lot about

 4     him.  I suppose you will continue talking about him later.  And now I'm

 5     just going to read the names on the list of the Serbian forces.  That's

 6     also in the indictment, Count 11.  I will ask you to tell me whether you

 7     had contact with any part of those forces.  Were any of those segments

 8     subordinated to you?  The first part are members of the JNA.

 9        A.   No.  I was in no position at all to order anything to the JNA or

10     even talk to them or make some arrangements with them.

11        Q.   Later on the JNA became the Army of Yugoslavia and it was known

12     under its name.  And during the period covered by the indictment, were

13     you in command of any of the segments of the Army of Yugoslavia?

14        A.   No, never.

15        Q.   Under B, we can see the newly established Serbian

16     Territorial Defence in the SAO Krajina.  Were you ever in a position to

17     give them orders?

18        A.   No, never.  Because they were under the government of the SAO

19     Krajina under Milan Babic, if I understood you properly.

20        Q.   And what about the Territorial Defence of the SBWS?

21        A.   No.  In our region, the Territorial Defence was different than

22     the Territorial Defence in the SAO Krajina.  We did not have any sort of

23     command over them.  We did not control them, we could not give them

24     orders, we were not in communication with them at all.

25        Q.   The subsequently established Serbian army of Krajina is something

Page 9712

 1     you're familiar with; right?  Did you exert command or control over that

 2     military?

 3        A.   No, I was never in a position to be in command of the Serbian

 4     army of Krajina.  I was a member of a body whose name escapes me.  It was

 5     the Council of the Supreme Command or something to the effect.  The name

 6     escapes me, but it will come back to me in a minute or two.  Together

 7     with me, members were the commander of the army, the minister of defence,

 8     and the minister of the police.  I represented the government.  The body

 9     was called the Supreme Military Council.  I apologise.  So I was in a

10     minority with regard to the others.

11        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   One part of your answer has been misrecorded in the transcript.

16     When you said something about the government, it says that you

17     represented the government.

18        A.   No, no.  I was an equal member of the Supreme Defence Council.

19     The commander of the Serbian army of Krajina, Mile Novakovic, was also

20     there, the prime minister, Djordje Begovic was a member.  Minister

21     Stojan Spanovic, and Minister Milan Martic.  The government had an

22     absolute majority there.  If I remember the situation well, those were

23     legal and professional issues that I didn't know much about.  I didn't

24     understand those issues too well, so I didn't want to meddle too much.

25        Q.   What was your role; i.e., did you have under your command a

Page 9713

 1     Territorial Defence of the Republic of Serbia?

 2        A.   No, I didn't play any roles there.  I didn't even know that they

 3     were in the territory of Slavonia and Baranja.  I thought that they were

 4     all JNA.  Only here did I see some documents that proved me wrong.

 5        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Further on, we have special units of the Serbian MUP and the

 9     state security, including the unit for special purposes, the unit for

10     anti-terrorist activity, and the unit for special operations, Skorpions,

11     the Serbian Volunteer Guards, and the special units of the MUP of Serbia

12     and state security known as the Red Berets or Frenki's men.

13        A.   I could not issue orders to any of those you mentioned.  I didn't

14     issue them orders.  I didn't co-operate with them in any way.

15        Q.   The next are the newly established special police forces of the

16     SAO Krajina, which were later merged with the MUP of the Serbian Krajina.

17     They were known as Martic's men or Martic's police.  Were you in a

18     position to be in command over them?

19        A.   The name says it all.  Of course not.

20        Q.   The next is the newly established special police and police

21     forces of the Serbian territory of the SBWS, including the Serbian

22     national security, which was later incorporated into the MUP of the

23     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

24        A.   The Serbian national security was never established, nor was it

25     then incorporated, nor it could be incorporated into anything.  I was not

Page 9714

 1     in command of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 2        Q.   And finally we have members of the paramilitary groups from

 3     Serbia, Montenegro, mostly volunteer units from Serbia and Montenegro and

 4     the units of Bosnian Serbs, including members of the Serbian Chetnik

 5     movement, led by Vojislav Seselj.  Tell us something about that, please.

 6        A.   I can tell you that I did not have anything to do with them.  I

 7     could not give them orders.  I could not make any decisions about them.

 8     I didn't even know that they were deployed in either Slavonia, Baranja,

 9     and Western Srem or the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  They arrived in

10     Slavonia as part of the JNA, according to what I knew.  And my knowledge

11     was not first-hand knowledge on it, mind you.

12        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you spoke about your meetings with Henry Wijnaendts.

13     I'm going to show you two documents which we received from the Dutch

14     Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is 1D3032.  It is tab 1126.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] It says in this document that on the 4th of

17     October an agreement was reached about a meeting with the representatives

18     of Krajina and the SBWS that was to take place in the ambassador's

19     residence in Paris, and the ambassador in question was the Dutch

20     ambassador.  On that occasion, Mr. Wijnaendts told you what the goal of

21     that meeting was going to be.  He also told you that it concerned the

22     Serbian community residing in Croatia.  He emphasized that a solution

23     should be sought within the boundaries Croatia and that solution included

24     a possible -- a special status.

25             Tell me, please, whether this tallies with what actually happened

Page 9715

 1     at the meeting in Paris.

 2        A.   Well, this is what Mr. Wijnaendts told me behind the closed doors

 3     at the little table that I mentioned -- in the corridor, actually.  In

 4     the initial part of the meeting, things were not said so directly.  This

 5     is a bit of a -- an exaggeration or a bit of a lie about Serbs staying in

 6     Croatia.  But word for word, this is what Wijnaendts told me eyeball to

 7     eyeball.

 8        Q.   It also says here that you and Babic said that Croatia had

 9     launched an initiative to change the borders by converting internal

10     administrative borders into state borders, and that the Serbs in Croatia

11     were equally entitled to change borders in the application of their right

12     to self-determination.  Was any such thing said?

13        A.   Yes, we did think that that was our legitimate entitlement and

14     that was in keeping with what Mr. De Michelis said previously.

15        Q.   It says here further on that both sides were in favour of finding

16     a peaceful solution to the problem.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And that they accepted -- or, rather, that the next meeting was

19     agreed.

20        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That was my first priority, a peaceful

21     solution.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I ask 1D3032 to be admitted into

23     evidence.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D135, Your Honours.  Does it

Page 9716

 1     need to be under seal?

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, indeed, thank you.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Under seal, yeah.

 4             And may we see 1D3033, please.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I see we are three or four minutes

 6     short.  Can you deal with this document within that time?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, we can leave it for tomorrow -- for

 8     Monday, sorry.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Preferably, yes.

10             Mr. Hadzic, we adjourn for the weekend.  I remind you that even

11     during the weekend you are still under oath.  Thank you.

12             Court adjourned.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day

16                           of July, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.