Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9788

 1                            Tuesday, 15 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 8.59 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we have the appearances, please, starting

12     with the Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

14             For the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton;

15     Case Manager, Thomas Laugel; and legal interns, Moritz von Normann and

16     Sarah Munsch.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

20     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]


Page 9789

 1                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, I would like to ask you a little

 3     even though you already said a few things about this, but in any case, I

 4     wanted to ask you about the Vance Plan.  If you can just briefly tell us

 5     how the events followed one another and what were your positions with

 6     regard to the Vance Plan, from the negotiations stage to the stage when

 7     it was concluded.

 8        A.   As early as in late fall 1991, specific talks began about the

9     arrival of the UN peace forces.  We have already talked about the

10     contacts I had with representatives of the European community,

11     Mr. Wijnaendts and Ahrens, and after that we established contact with

12     Mr. Goulding.  I believe that he was an envoy of the Secretary-General,

13     and with Cyrus Vance.  There were many problems because we were concerned

14     for the security of the population.  Our goal, at least the goal of the

15     government and mine, and I was heading the government, was to achieve

16     peace and to end the killing.  It's well-known that we had a series of

17     meetings and consultations, all of them held in Belgrade with federal

18     representatives or with mediators from the UN, and before that, the

19     European community, as I have said.

20        Q.   Could you tell us what was the general position of the

21     Croatian Serbs towards the proposals contained in the Vance Plan

22     initially?

23        A.   Well, the Vance Plan generally said that the peacekeeping forces

24     would be coming to Croatia.  This was a problem for us, and I mentioned a

25     referendum that we had held and the decisions of the assembly which I had

Page 9790

 1     to implement, I mean my assembly, and we believed that instead of Croatia

 2     the notion of Yugoslavia or a part of Yugoslavia should be used or

3     something like that.  Perhaps it was a rather formal problem but for us

 4     it was a practical one too.  And then Mr. Vance promised to us that

 5     Croatia would be treated as a geographical notion without envisaging any

 6     final political solution, and that satisfied more than 50 per cent of my

7     requests.  When I say "my," I mean the requests of the government that I

 8     was representing.  The government of SAO Krajina which was headed by

 9     Milan Babic was much tougher in its stance.  It had greater demands and

10     problems arose because of this.  Once again, I say that our position was

11     that the Blue Helmets would come to the demarcation line, that they

12     should guarantee that the Croatian forces would not be able to enter and

13     threaten us.  It's known that they did come and that they were deployed

14     throughout the territory.

15             So these were the issues that we needed to agree about.

16        Q.   And what were the views with regard to the deployment of the UN

17     forces in the territory of both SBWS and the SAO Krajina before that, in

18     terms of the places where these force were supposed to be deployed?

19        A.   Well, as I just said, our view was that they should be deployed

20     along the demarcation line, the confrontation line, and according to

21     plan, they were supposed to be deployed throughout the territory and they

22     were to be in charge of the security of all the population, including the

23     population inside the territory.  Very soon, it turned out that this was

24     bad because they did not then keep the border, nor the depth of the

25     territory, so this was a half-baked solution, but I didn't really know it

Page 9791

1     at that time.  It just turned out to be like that later on.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P28.  It is tab 15.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] These are the minutes from one of the meetings

 4     of the SFRY Presidency attended by a number of representatives of SBWS

5     and the Knin Krajina.  I see that you were among them.  Do you

 6     remember -- or, rather, I will ask you to look at page 37 in the original

 7     and in translation it's pages 27 and 28.

 8             Have you refreshed your memory?

 9        A.   Yes, I have.

10        Q.   Can you tell us whether your words are truly conveyed here.

11        A.   Yes, I think so.

12        Q.   Inter alia, what you say here is:

13             "I have to say what the position of our people and our assembly

14     is.  The people believe that the suffering should stop."

15             It's on page 39.  Do you see it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You also say that you advocate the deployment along the green

18     line.  What was the green line?

19        A.   The so-called green line was the separation line, the

20     confrontation line, or the demarcation line.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see now P29.  It is tab number 16, please.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another meeting and the occasion is the

23     same.  It was held on the 12th of December at 1330 hours.  I see that

24     your name is not included among those present.  Could you tell us what

25     was the reason for your absence from this meeting?

Page 9792

 1        A.   I can't remember.  I can see that Babic is not there either.  I

 2     don't know why we were not there.

 3        Q.   I see on pages 32 and 33 of the original - pages 24, 25 in

 4     English version - that Milosevic is asking the question why you and Babic

 5     did not attend, and he says:

 6             "Could anyone have any more urgent business than attending the

7     meeting?"

 8             Can you remember any reasons why you were not there?

 9        A.   Well, there I remember in a way our conflict with Milosevic began

10     then.

11        Q.   Can you tell us what did the conflict consist of for you?  What

12     was your grudge against Milosevic?

13        A.   I did not have much choice at the time.  I had to take into

14     account the positions of the assembly and the referendum and the

15     positions of the SAO Krajina.  They were more numerous and that was a

16     greater territory than the SBWS.  So I showed solidarity in a way with

17     the positions that I considered rational as long as I did.  Once I

18     thought that they were no longer rational, then I, of course, defended

19     only the position of the government I was heading and the territory in

20     which I was at the time.  Both Babic and I believed that Milosevic wanted

21     to resolve this issue quickly and at any cost, in such a way that our

22     requests wouldn't be taken into account.

23        Q.   After the adoption of the Vance Plan, you gave an interview to

24     the newspapers.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Can we see document -- it is tab 1363.  It is

Page 9793

 1     actually the document 885 from the Prosecution Rule 65 terlist.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   It's an interview you gave on the 18th -- or, rather, it was

 5     published on the 18th and the 19th of January, 1992.  In it, you say, "We

 6     have been cheated."  Can you remember -- or, rather, you can remind

7     yourself from the text, why did you feel cheated at the time and who

 8     cheated you?

 9        A.   Well, it was not in accordance what we had been arranging with

10     Mr. Vance when the plan was being adopted and also the guarantees

11     provided by our federal state and the Republic of Serbia which was one of

12     the participants and stakeholders in the negotiations.  From my present

13     point of view, I think it was very brave and it was the strange and --

14     criticism of Milosevic the most stringent that was possible at the time.

15     I'm not sure how I dare to do it at the time, but it was the truth.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I would tender this document.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D139, Your Honours.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I have just been

20     informed this document was not on the Defence's list for use during the

21     direct.  It is among those that fall within the pending motion to amend

22     his 65 ter list from the 1st of July.  So I just wish to note that for

23     the record.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  As far as I recall, the Prosecution did not

Page 9794

 1     object to this motion.  And, as far as I recall, the Chamber decided

2     about it.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I wouldn't know on the top of my head,

 4     Mr. Zivanovic.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  I don't know either, Mr. President, to be honest.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We'll look into it, Mr. Stringer, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9     Yeah, we keep it as it is for the moment and we'll come back to you.

10             Please continue, Mr. Zivanovic.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, before the adoption of the plan, you had a meeting

13     with Mr. Goulding.  I would now ask you to look at the document P32,

14     which is tab 19.

15             Do you remember this conversation?  Did you agree all these items

16     from this report with Mr. Goulding or not?

17        A.   Well, those were the views that we advocated as listed here by

18     Mr. Goulding from (a) to (f).  And in particular, there was the position

19     on disarming that was emphasised because they requested that only one

20     side should be disarmed, and Croatia was free to arm itself on the other

21     hand and it was not disarmed literally 1 or 200 metres from this green

22     line, and they could choose and attack any point along the border with us

23     whenever they wanted to.  And later on it really turned out that that was

24     so, without any consequences.

25        Q.   And did Mr. Goulding give you the answers that are noted here in

Page 9795

1     this letter?

 2        A.   Yes, he said that.  After his assurances, I said that I would

 3     accept the plan.

 4        Q.   And this item (c) of his response, is that correctly phrased as

5     well?

 6        A.   Well, I didn't understand him saying that, but -- which item did

 7     you say again?

 8        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the Defence.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought you said (e) but you're

11     thinking of (c).  Yes, this is correctly formulated and defined, and that

12     was one of the main reasons we accepted the plan.  Because with the

13     withdrawal of the JNA, which was responsible for the territory and had

14     the control of the territory, they handed over that control to the

15     United Nations over a period of a month or two.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Just for the purpose of clarification, we're now speaking about

18     the response of Mr. Goulding.  So it's on page 2, both of the English and

19     the B/C/S text.  I am just saying this for the transcript.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Paragraph (c) from this response, was that implemented at all?

25        A.   Unfortunately, it was not.  UNPROFOR did not manage to protect

Page 9796

1     the line of separation.  We had to do that ourselves.  We had to mobilise

 2     the population from the interior of the area and then there was nobody to

 3     keep law and order and make sure that the citizens were secure, and

 4     UNPROFOR didn't do that either.  So this was a very difficult thing to

 5     put into effect for our local leadership.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please now look at these

 7     stenographic minutes from the meeting of the Presidency of the

 8     2nd of March, 1992.  This is P37, tab 24.

 9        Q.   The session was held on the 2nd of March, 1992.  I would like us

10     to clarify something that you said then.  This is on page 92 of the

11     original and on page 68 of the English translation.

12             The text actually begins from page 88 of the B/C/S and page 66 in

13     the English translation.  And the resettlement of the population from one

14     territory to another was discussed.  Radovan Karadzic spoke about this.

15             When you addressed the meeting, after he said that it was just

16     ridiculous for people to move from one area to another, on page 92 of the

17     B/C/S and page 68 of the English translation, you said that this was not

18     a nebulous thing.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And then you said Serbs from Zagreb should resettle, as well as

21     those from Belgrade, and now from this area; it's out of the question.

22             So just allow me to clarify two matters here, even though what

23     you said was very brief.  Could you please tell us what you meant when

24     you said that this is not a nebulous matter.  There's nothing nebulous in

25     it.  This refers to the resettlement of the population?

Page 9797

 1        A.   Well, it was not nebulous.  It already happened.  The Serbs had

 2     already moved from the bigger cities, either voluntarily or by being

 3     forced out.  So it was not nebulous.  Whereas Croats from Belgrade had no

4     problems.  They didn't have to move out and this is that difference.  And

 5     I said that at this point in time, this is out of the question, not in

6     this terrain.  So this is an error.

 7        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for the council.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You said the following:  The Serbs from Zagreb should resettle

11     and Serbs from Belgrade, and now, as far as this terrain is concerned,

12     this is out of the question.

13             So there are two options here.  It is evident that the way the

14     sentence reads here doesn't make any sense.  There are two options.  I

15     don't want to suggest either one to you because I think the way it is

16     written is not accurate.  I would like to see with you if you can clarify

17     this.

18        A.   Well, first let me explain this.  When I said this is not

19     anything nebulous, these are my words.  As for the rest of it, I was

20     quoting the position of some people from the international community that

21     Serbs from Zagreb should be resettled.  That was normal.  Nobody

22     questioned that.  It was implied -- and Serbs from Belgrade.  But nobody

23     talked about Croats.  Had Croats been discussed then it would have been a

24     crime, but as for Serbs nobody was interested.  This is what I meant.

25     And then what I meant was at this point in time that is out of the

Page 9798

1     question.  That is what I meant to say.  The way it's written here, it

 2     doesn't make sense.  It's nebulous.

 3        Q.   Could you please tell us what the sense of the sentence was when

 4     you say:

 5             "Serbs from Zagreb and Serbs from Belgrade should resettle but at

 6     this point in time, this is out of the question."

7             Why was it out of the question at that particular moment but

8     yesterday it was possible as well as the following day?

 9        A.   Well, that was the position in the field and as far as

10     international policy was concerned.  Serbs were being resettled or were

11     resettling, and this was not a problem for anyone.  And at that point in

12     time, nobody would have listened to us.  That's the sense of it.

13     There -- there was -- it was out of the question for us to talk about

14     this problem with anyone.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D3292, please.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] This is tab 1147.

18        Q.   This is a report about talks conducted and, among other people,

19     you were also present.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at page 3.

21     Actually, page 4, please.  Excuse me.

22        Q.   In item 8, it states here:

23             [In English] "Hadzic, the so-called president of Serbian Krajina,

24     expressed surprise at my proposal, saying that he did not expect

25     pre-judgement of political decisions by the United Nations.  He said

Page 9799

 1     there are two options before the 50.000 Serbs living in the pink zones:

2     To be assured of protection, or to leave."

 3             [Interpretation] Do you remember that meeting that you had with

 4     international representatives on the topic of the pink zones and other

 5     matters discussed in this matter?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember.  The term "pink zones" had to do with the

 7     SAO Krajina because in the SBWS there were no pink zones.  The whole area

 8     was a so-called blue area, under the United Nations.  Pink zones were in

 9     the western Krajina in areas populated by Serbs with Serb authority and

10     where the United Nations did not want to go there.  They were not

11     supposed to be part of the UNPA zones, and I said that there were only

12     two options here:  Either to provide protection for those people or they

13     would have to leave.  Because once the Croatian authorities arrived, they

14     would not be assured of safety.

15        Q.   And do you remember what happened to the pink zones after this?

16     What happened then?

17        A.   The pink zones were periodically attacked and then taken over by

18     the Croat forces without any consequences for them in relation to the

19     international community.  There were killings.  The area was occupied.

20     And, as far as I know, no one has so far been charged with that, either

21     in Croatia or here.  This question was never considered by any court.

22        Q.   And what happened to the population in the pink zones?  You said,

23     among other things, that some were killed.  What happened to those who

24     were not killed?

25        A.   They were expelled.  They were second-class refugees.  Nobody

Page 9800

 1     really considered their status.

 2        Q.   Can you please tell us where those refugees went, as you said,

 3     after they were expelled?

 4        A.   Most of them came to the territory under the control of the

 5     Serbian Krajina.  Perhaps some went to Serbia and Bosnia.  I don't know

 6     that, but it was not a very large number.

 7        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I wanted to get an explanation from you about setting

8     up the military authority, particularly in the area of SBWS in 1991.

 9             Yesterday, you said that on the 20th of November you received

10     notification from Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic that the civilian authority

11     cannot be saved or spared and that, actually, it cannot be set up and

12     that for a long time afterwards it could not be set up in Vukovar.

13             So I just briefly wanted to look at documents on this matter.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P1994.1981.  It is tab number

15     1284.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've looked at it.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Just before paragraph 4, there is a paragraph that said that:

19             "The town commanders in the OG JUG area of responsibility are to

20     take all necessary measures for the full functioning of the military

21     authorities pursuant to the order of the 9th of November."

22             Does this correspond to what you know and what you talked about,

23     about the setting up of the military authorities?

24        A.   Yes.  Let me just add about Lieutenant-Colonel Vojnovic.  Not

25     only did he say that it was not possible to set up civilian authorities

Page 9801

 1     but it was not even to be discussed.  He was not prepared to even discuss

2     that topic.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see now D20, please.  It is tab number

4     1226.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please look at paragraph 2 of this

6     order which is dated 22nd November, 1991.  It says that:

 7             "The staff of the Territorial Defence of Vukovar, in co-operation

 8     with the command of the 80th Motorised Brigade, will establish organs of

9     authority in local communes and organise their functioning, set up police

10     station, regulate the movement of people returning to town and their

11     compulsory identification of the Velepromet reception centre."

12             Do you remember, was this done?

13        A.   This is completely consistent with the actual situation at the

14     time.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see now P169 -- oh, sorry.  P1996.1981.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another order from the command of the

17     80th Motorised Brigade dated 22nd November, 1991.  Would you just look at

18     this sentence above paragraph 3:

19             "Prevent any form of harassment of the population and local

20     residents, as well as unauthorised entry and search of flats and houses."

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Is this consistent with what you knew in that period; namely,

23     that this order existed and that your authorities, the authorities of

24     SBWS, were supposed to informs -- this.

25        A.   Yes, we were not able to do these things even before.  This order

Page 9802

 1     just confirms the actual situation.  We didn't even have access to that

2     area.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P200 --

4     sorry.P2000.1981, tab 86.

 5        Q.   This is a report dated 29 November, 1991.  Among other things, it

 6     says that following the liberation of Vukovar the command of the brigade

 7     operating as the Town Command got the task of enforcing the powers of the

8     military authority -- military administration.  Do you know if therewas

9     a military administration at the time?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at

12     2007.1987 [as interpreted], tab 447.[In English] 2007.1981.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see this order dated

14     30th December, 1991, where the TO Staff of Vukovar is resubordinated to

15     the command of the 80th Motorised Brigade which is, at the same time, the

16     Town Command?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And in paragraph 3, this unit is given the order to start

19     disarming Chetnik groups in populated areas.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move to the next page.

21     Only in the original.  The English text is here.

22        Q.   Paragraph 5:  The staff of the TO Vukovar is responsible for the

23     population and their property and in carrying out this task, the staff is

24     relying on the units of the 80th Motorised Brigade.

25             Does this reflect the situation in Vukovar at that time, as far

Page 9803

 1     as you and the government knew?

 2        A.   Yes.  Everything was under military rule; that is to say, under

3     this 80th Motorised Brigade.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P376.  It is tab 1256.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a regular combat report dated

6     18 January, 1992, again from the Command of the 80th Motorised Brigade.

 7     Could you please look at paragraph 2.  It says:

 8             "The staff of the Territorial Defence ofVukovar is not

 9     functioning at all and its organisational structure has not been

10     established either."

11             Nobody knows how many units there are or who are the commanders

12     or commanding officers, and they don't have any communications.

13             Did you or the government have any contacts with the TO Staff

14     Vukovar?  Did you have any jurisdiction over them?

15        A.   We had neither.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P151,

17     tab 110.

18        Q.   This is a decision that you signed that the government passed on

19     the 21st of January, 1992.  Let's begin with paragraph 2.  It says:

20             "The Command of the 1st Army District is given the authority to

21     enforce paragraph 1."

22             Namely, to disband the unit led by a man known as Kameni and

23     based in Vukovar.

24             Can you remember how this decision came to be adopted and how did

25     you come to sign it?

Page 9804

 1        A.   I remember there was a session of the government where

 2     Colonel Ristic came and said it would be a first step in the transition

 3     from the military to civilian rule, and it would be good for us to adopt

 4     this decision, the text of which he had already written, and the

 5     secretary of the government was only supposed to add this heading.  We

 6     discussed it and accepted it.  And he explained that it would be a good

 7     idea for our local police, because they know most of the members of

 8     Kameni's units, to help, to avoid casualties.  But I didn't get any

9     follow-up information, whether this was really done, or how.

10        Q.   When you said "Colonel Ristic," you meant Colonel Ratko Ristic, a

11     JNA colonel?

12        A.   Yes, I see his name is Ratko now.  I just knew his last name,

13     Ristic.  He was a JNA colonel from the Novi Sad Corps.

14        Q.   Did you -- in fact, did the government know the identity of this

15     person mentioned in paragraph 1 at that time because he is cited only by

16     nickname?

17        A.   As far as I understood, it was some kind of detachment commanded

18     by a person under that nickname.  I didn't know him, but I'd heard of

19     him, and I knew he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party.  But I

20     didn't know the man.

21        Q.   In other words, you knew only his nickname.  You didn't know his

22     first or last name.  I'm asking you because only the nickname is given

23     here.  It's just said this unit is led by so-called Kameni.  I'm only

24     asking if you remember.

25        A.   I think it's obvious that at that time we didn't know.  I later

Page 9805

 1     found out the man is called Milan Lancuzanin.  But I didn't know it at

2     the time.  We knew his nickname, Kameni.  I found out later from media

3     reports that it's Milan Lancuzanin.

 4        Q.   In paragraph 1, reference is made to some plan and programme of

 5     activities to implement tasks related to the establishment of civilian

6     authorities in the territory of Vukovar municipality.

 7             What kind of plan and programme was it?  Did you see it?  Did you

 8     participate in its creation?

 9        A.   I did not, and I don't believe anyone in our government did.  If

10     that thing existed, I don't remember it.

11        Q.   After this, did Colonel Ristic or anyone else inform you if this

12     decision was ever realised?  Was anything really done?  Were any steps

13     taken?

14        A.   Nobody gave any follow-up information to me or anyone in the

15     government.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at D50.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Tab 1238.  Sorry.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   This is an order dated 17 February, 1992, whereby the Command of

24     the 1st Military District is issuing certain orders regarding civilian

25     affairs, and I would like us to look at paragraph 2.  I believe it's on

Page 9806

 1     the second page of the English.

 2             Can you see this?

 3        A.   Yes.  This shows that this was complete military rule.  They

 4     appointed town commanders and all the other organs.  They were able to

 5     replace them as they pleased.  And it was all done back in February 1992.

 6        Q.   When you say "they," who do you mean?

 7        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 3, an order is given to protect loyal citizens of

 9     Croatian, Hungarian, and other nationalities from terror, liquidation,

10     and all kinds of pressure.  Are you able to tell us how you understood

11     this?  But, first of all, tell me if you were aware of this order,

12     because it relates to civilian affairs.

13        A.   I was not aware because they did not inform the government about

14     it.  I knew that it was their obligation, as it was their zone of

15     responsibility, to take care of all affairs, including the civilian ones.

16     But the way it's formulated doesn't seem logical to me because, to me,

17     all the citizens were equal.  I don't know what was the discretion on the

18     basis of which one was supposed to decide whether they were loyal or

19     unloyal.  For me, whoever continued to live with us was a loyal citizen.

20     In my view, this allows the possibility of manipulation.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D365.  It is tab number 749.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a statement by Colonel Vojnovic which he

23     gave on the 29th of November, 1991, in which he says that the main task

24     of the military authorities which have been established was to help in

25     setting up the civilian authorities.  I'm interested in this:  Since your

Page 9807

 1     talks with Colonel Vojnovic on the 20th of November at Velepromet and

 2     onwards, were you personally or the government in contact with him in

 3     order to establish civilian authorities through the government of SBWS,

 4     as we have already seen how the civilian authorities were set up through

5     the Vukovar TO Staff?

 6        A.   We did not have any contact with him, neither myself nor the

7     government.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tendered this document into

9     evidence.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D140.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2493.  It is tab 1062.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] I will now move to something else somewhat

15     further afield from Vukovar.

16             This is a document from January 1992 on the appointment of a

17     director of an enterprise there.  Do you know whether the government was

18     consulted, for example, about the appointment not only of this director

19     but directors of other enterprises which had nothing to do with military

20     affairs?  We are talking about Ilok at the moment.

21        A.   The government was not consulted about such issues in Ilok.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we -- I would tendered this document,

23     Your Honours.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D141.

Page 9808

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P379.

2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Tab number 1259.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another report about the setting up of

 5     TO Staffs in the territory of Ilok.  It was submitted on the

 6     26th of February, 1992, and it provides details -- a detailed analysis of

7     all this.

 8             Could you please say whether your government, the government of

 9     SBWS, took part in the setting up of units and staffs of

10     Territorial Defence in the territory of Ilok and its surroundings?

11        A.   No, it didn't.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 3187.  P3187.  It is

13     tab 1331.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another document from the Command of the

15     1st Motorised Corps dated the 20th of March, 1992, and it has to do with

16     the action of populating the territory of Krajina.  It is requested that

17     all the officers be informed about the possibilities and conditions of

18     populating the territory of Krajina and that information about those who

19     may be interested be urgently submitted.

20             Do you know whether people did, indeed, become settled in

21     accordance with this order of the JNA, and were there any consultations

22     with your government?

23        A.   This is a period when the Republic of Serbian Krajina had already

24     been formed, and no one was consulted.

25        Q.   I know that this is the period after you had been elected to the

Page 9809

1     position of the president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.  I'm

2     interested in the previous period.  Did they consult the government of

 3     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?  So my question does not refer to

4     the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

 5        A.   Nobody consulted the government of SBWS while I was the

 6     prime minister.  Not about this issue.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please P1692.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  Tab number 1270.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] We just looked at some documents dealing with

11     Vukovar and the surrounding area.  I would now like us to look at some

12     other documents that also have to do with the setting up of the military

13     authorities in the same time-frame but in the zone of the 12th Corps.

14     This is why I'd like you to look at this document.

15             First of all, in this document dated the 22nd of November, 1991,

16     it says that the groups and units which are not under the command of the

17     JNA had to be removed.

18             From what you know, was this an ongoing JNA's task after the fall

19     of Vukovar in the area; namely, to have the territory under control and

20     all army forces and armed groups that there were?

21        A.   Yes, I know that after the fall of Vukovar, in accordance with

22     the orders of the commander of the 1st Military District which I could

23     hear in the media, only the JNA and the forces that were under its

24     command were allowed to be in the territory.  Whoever was outside their

25     command was to be expelled across the Danube.

Page 9810

 1        Q.   Paragraph 3 reads that:

 2             "The command of the 12th Corps has the information that certain

 3     officers take it upon themselves to pass judgement on prisoners on the

4     spot, which is impermissible."

 5             I'd like to know whether the government ever received any

 6     warnings that some of its members or organs were doing anything like

7     this.

 8        A.   Members of the government were not doing anything like this and

 9     I'm not even aware of this.  I'm not familiar with this order.  I saw for

10     the first time here that something like that was going on.

11        Q.   Just to remind you of my question:  Did the government ever

12     receive any information about the military authorities to the effect that

13     they had information that some people who were under civilian control or,

14     let's say, government employees or the employees of local authorities did

15     anything like this, as described under item 3?

16        A.   No, we never received that sort of information from the army.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we please see P2972.2913.  It is tab 1319.

18     Number is P2972.2913, and tab number 1319.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a document about a tour that a team from

20     the 1st Guards Motorised Brigade conducted in its zone of responsibility

21     on the 7th of December, 1991.  It says that volunteer units are

22     integrated in the JNA and under its command with the exception of one

23     unit from the 24th -- I don't really understand this abbreviation.  My

24     impression is that it's some artillery unit.  And a TO Crnogorac

25     detachment, which is reportedly under the control of the government of

Page 9811

 1     Serbia.

 2             Do you know that at the time there were any other units that were

3     not under the control of the JNA?

 4        A.   No, I'm not aware of this.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to go back to Ilok

6     for yet a while, and if we could please see 2746.  It's tab 619.

 7        Q.   This is a report of the Command of the 1st Infantry Guards

 8     Motorised Division which orders the setting up of military authorities in

 9     Ilok and places to the south of it, in that area.  The units which are to

10     discharge these duties are appointed.

11             Please tell me whether you know that military rule was introduced

12     in these places as stated in this report, in this order?

13        A.   I knew that military rule was introduced.  The people were

14     appointed by the army.  It wasn't our civilian authority.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please D30.  It is tab 1232.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] It's a letter which you wrote to the commander

17     of Ilok.  You can see your signature on the following page.

18             Do you remember this letter?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   In the letter, among other things, you say that you were not

21     informed about the terms under which military authority was introduced.

22     What did you want to explain by that?  What did you actually want to say

23     in this letter?

24        A.   What I said, that nobody notified us about any conditions of the

25     military authority:  Under which conditions it was set up, what was the

Page 9812

 1     purpose of it, how long it would last.

 2        Q.   Among other things, you said that Vojin Susa was assigned as the

 3     government representative to liaise with the JNA organs, particularly

4     regarding the setting up of civilian authority.

 5             Could you please tell us what specific tasks did Mr. Susa receive

6     from the civilian government.

 7        A.   After the tragic events in Western Slavonia and after the

 8     refugees arrived in a disorganised manner to Eastern Slavonia, after we

 9     were informed about this and with a delay of about a month or so, the

10     government formed a commission headed by Vojin Susa, who was supposed to

11     base himself in Ilok and help as much as possible to organise things.  I

12     think that this was in late 1991.  We asked that -- the military

13     authorities to co-operate, if possible, there, to find them accommodation

14     and things like that because we didn't have any powers in Ilok.

15        Q.   You also asked that the finance minister be given an overview of

16     the situation in Ilok.  What was meant by that?

17        A.   If you remember, yesterday I said that the military authorities

18     completely sealed off Ilok and the area around it, that they took over

19     all the private companies, all the goods, and we had no overview.  So we

20     wanted the finance ministry to be able to look into the funds, the

21     invoices, the number of supplies in Ilok, but our request was not

22     granted.

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that we can move to the

Page 9813

1     next page.Page 3 in the English text.

 2        Q.   You said, among other things, that you wanted some information

 3     about the Ilok police station because you said that you didn't know

 4     whether it was under military police.

 5             Could you please tell me if you had civilian police in Ilokat

6     all at that time?

 7        A.   Well, I asked the Ilok town commander about the police.  We knew

 8     that there was some sort of police force there, but we didn't know who

 9     set it up and who was in control and command.

10        Q.   In the letter, you said that the government had been told that

11     the process of repopulation went on -- went on rather well.  Did you have

12     any information in the meantime that people were moving in to Ilok and

13     who organised and led this whole operation?

14        A.   We had information that this was managed by the military

15     administration.  They didn't ask for our approval in that, nor did they

16     need it.

17        Q.   I can see that you were not even aware of the criteria for this

18     repopulating.

19        A.   We didn't know anything.

20        Q.   Can you please tell us what this letter -- in your letter where

21     you say:  Our agreement is not required.

22        A.   Well, I didn't say that directly.  I believe that it was implied

23     that we were not asked for our opinion, and that's what I said.  This

24     means that we were not responsible for anything.  Nothing was in our

25     jurisdiction.

Page 9814

 1        Q.   Does that mean that you were not required to give your approval

2     for the things that they had already done?

 3        A.   Everything that they did, they did of their own accord.  They

 4     didn't ask us about anything, and they didn't think that they needed to

 5     do that.  And this is precisely why I wrote that.

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, Mr. Zivanovic.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Vojin Susa conveyed the town commander's request

11     to give an approval for the temporary resettlement in the area of Ilok.

12             Are you -- do you remember this?

13        A.   I think that they told Susa that we didn't do anything about

14     that, that they criticised him, and that they asked us about it

15     ultimately, but I don't remember anything about it.

16        Q.   Just one more question on this document.

17             In this document, you noted that with the resettlement you had no

18     intention of prejudging the solution of military issues in

19     Western Slavonia.

20             Could you please explain what you meant to say about that in the

21     document.

22        A.   This is easy to explain.  When I say that the government had

23     exclusively humanitarian goals, we did not interfere or get involved in

24     any ethnic matters.  These people found themselves on the Danube, on the

25     border.  They had no houses and they simply occupied or moved into those

Page 9815

1     houses.  We considered this to be a temporary move.  Whether it would be

 2     a year or less, or longer, this is something that we did not deal with.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Mr. President, I think it is time for our break.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Before taking the break, I would like to try to

 5     settle the problem about document number 885 on the OTP Rule 65 ter list,

 6     the document we admitted as D139.  It seems -- as far as we could check,

 7     Mr. Zivanovic, it seems that this document is not part of one of your

8     motions to add documents to the -- to your 65 ter list.  There's one of

 9     those motions, I think, still pending for which the OTP answer is due

10     today, but this document is not on that list.

11             If you could please check and in -- in the -- during the break.

12     And in the meantime, the OTP could perhaps say whether they -- what their

13     position is with regard to this document.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I will, Mr. President, thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

16             MR. STRINGER:  We don't have an objection, Mr. President, to the

17     document.  We can -- if the Chamber is minded to allow it to be added to

18     the list, we don't object to it's being then tendered into evidence.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  If -- the document will be added to the 65 ter

20     list and stays admitted and marked, as it is.

21             Court adjourned.

22                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9816

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, do you remember receiving an answer

 2     from the Ilok town commander to this letter which we were discussing just

3     before the break?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P1962.  It is tab 468.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, did you find one answer at least to

10     the questions that you put in the letter?

11        A.   No, I did not.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P369.  It is tab 250.

13        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a letter, or a telegram, sent by the

14     Command of the 1st Guards Division to the Command of the

15     1st Military District requesting instructions about what to do about the

16     resettlement and how to bring back members of other ethnic groups to the

17     area and also to get people who left the area to return.

18             Did you know that the military authorities at the time had

19     dilemmas that are stated here in paragraphs 1 and 4 of the letter?

20        A.   No, I wasn't aware of that.

21        Q.   And were you consulted about your position on these issues on

22     which they were seeking instructions from their superior command?

23        A.   No, I was not consulted.  No one asked me anything about these

24     matters.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P370.

Page 9817

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It's tab number 251.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the answer that was received --

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we see the next page, please.  Thanks.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This answer of the 23rd of December, 1991, mentions -- or,

 7     rather, certain instructions are provided and the letter, among other

 8     things, says that:

 9             "The questions put should be most closely connected to the

10     requests of Serbs from other areas to move into abandoned houses."

11             Could you please tell me, were you aware of this position of the

12     JNA at the time?

13        A.   No, I wasn't.

14        Q.   It goes on to say that the leasing of abandoned houses should be

15     left to the extent possible to the civilian authorities, wherever they

16     exist, and if they don't exist, the Town Command should seek the opinion

17     of the commissioner for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and if there

18     is no commissioner, then they should seek the opinion of the government.

19             I want to know did anyone approach the government of the SBWS

20     after these instructions were issued?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Do you know if any commissioners appointed by the government were

23     asked for their opinion?

24        A.   If I remember well, the government did not appoint any

25     commissioners, and I don't know how you would call this group that

Page 9818

 1     included Vojo Susa.  In any case, they were formed after this letter.  I

 2     don't know.  I don't have any information that anyone was consulted.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             Mr. Hadzic, I -- Mr. Hadzic, I noticed that you stopping paying

5     attention to the little cross on the screen that indicates when

6     interpretation -- has finished interpreting the question.  It is very

7     helpful if you could do that.  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will do that.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In the next paragraph, it says that no matter who makes the

11     decision for people to move in, their houses that were abandoned by

12     people who are certain not to return because of the crimes they had

13     committed should be the first on the list to be given, to be made

14     available.

15             Were you aware of this?  Were you informed about this?

16        A.   No, we were not.

17        Q.   It goes on to say that it's natural that efforts should be made

18     in co-operation with the authorities to enable the return of persons who

19     had been loyal and who had not comprised themselves in any way.

20             Were you informed of this position?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Further below, we read that all cases of illegal eviction should

23     be registered and resolved in co-operation with the security organs of

24     the JNA and the public security authorities of the district and towns.

25             Did the government know that the military security and the public

Page 9819

 1     security were instructed to proceed in this way?

 2        A.   Nobody informed us about the activities of the military security

3     or the public security, for that matter.

 4        Q.   In the end, it says that Town Commands are especially responsible

5     for securing law and order, the security and safety of citizens.  Any

 6     harassment and mistreatment of citizens must not be allowed and the

 7     authorities are to prevent any such incidents.

 8             As far as you knew, were the Town Commands responsible for this,

 9     and did they really enforce it?

10        A.   The Town Commands were responsible, and they were supposed to

11     enforce it, but I did not get any reports whether they really did.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P2750,

13     tab 623.

14        Q.   This is a report that the Command of the 1st Guards Division sent

15     out covering capacities for accommodating refugees.  It relates to Ilok

16     and the surrounding area.

17             I see here that they provide a specific number of housing units

18     available to refugees.  Did the government have an exact list of housing

19     units available at the time?

20        A.   No, we didn't know that.  And the government did not deal with

21     these issues.

22        Q.   I believe we should move to the next page in English.

23             It says, among other things, that it was on the

24     19th of December, 1991, that the refugees began to receive accommodation

25     and the person who authored this report says that it would be natural for

Page 9820

 1     some ministry of the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem to

 2     form a subcommittee for immigration, a regional council for resettlement,

 3     and in populated areas, there should be commissions, and that it would be

 4     natural for the government to have exact data, to monitor convoys, make

 5     lists of requirements, collect lists of registered housing in order to

 6     implement the provision of accommodation and the resettlement of

7     population.

 8             How would you comment on this report?

 9        A.   All that follows very clearly from this report.  I'm not really

10     interested in what a JNA officer considers natural, but we see from this

11     report that the government did not deal with any of these matters that he

12     criticises us over.  We did not have these commissions, and we did not

13     effect resettlement the way this officer would have wanted us to do.  All

14     this simply took us by surprise as a whirlwind, and we did not organise a

15     resettlement in any planned way.

16        Q.   Could you clarify this, because I don't think the explanation on

17     the record is very clear.

18             You used two terms:  "Moving out" and "moving in," or

19     "evacuation" and "immigration."

20        A.   When I said "resettlement," I meant the problem of refugees from

21     Western Slavonia.  That literally befell us unexpectedly.  We could never

22     have anticipated it.

23             And when I said "moving out," or "evacuation," we didn't either

24     plan it or implement it in any way.  And from the critique addressed to

25     us by this officer, it is clear that what I just explained is true.

Page 9821

 1        Q.   My next question would be then:  Why didn't you?  What was in

2     your way?

 3        A.   All the territory was under the control of the

 4     Yugoslav People's Army.  We did not have civilian authorities in order to

 5     be able to implement this, or to enforce it.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at P3178.

 7     That's tab 716.

 8        Q.   This is a dispatch from the Chief of Staff of the 1st Military

 9     District sent to the 1st Mechanised Corps and the 12th Corps, and it says

10     that you, the prime minister of the Serbian District of Slavonia,

11     Baranja, and Western Srem, approached their command asking for property,

12     vehicles and such, to be returned in order to be made available to the

13     Serbian district.

14             Can you tell me how you approached the Command of the

15     1st Military District, considering that we don't have your original

16     letter?

17        A.   Well, we addressed this military command in Ilok several times

18     with regard to these problems, but we never received an answer to our

19     previous requests, and then we tried this way.  But this didn't bring

20     about any solutions either.

21        Q.   I can see that there are two different matters here:  Vehicles

22     that had belonged to enemy units; and vehicles that the JNA had

23     unlawfully seized from civilians and others.

24             What was all this about?

25        A.   I don't know.  It's a qualification they made.  We asked to see

Page 9822

 1     what happened with various vehicles that had been seized from

 2     agricultural organisations, from the winery and its director, various

 3     other officials, because we were supposed to reappoint these officials,

 4     and they were supposed to have cars, and the cars had been seized by the

 5     JNA.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P3179.  It is tab 717.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] I see from this letter that later the

 8     1st Motorised Corps addressed the same request to a whole series of units

9     under its command.

10             I am curious:  Did you ever receive an answer from any of these

11     units or from this corps or from the 1st Military District?

12        A.   Never.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P2943.  It is tab 658.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an instruction on conducting civilian

15     affairs sent by the Federal Secretariat for National Defence to JNA units

16     on 25 November, 1991.

17             I want to review it briefly and then ask you a couple of

18     questions.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move on to page 4,

20     item 6.

21        Q.   Under item 6 of this instruction, it is said that the civilian

22     affairs organs are to undertake and carry out certain investigative

23     actions and press criminal charges against the perpetrators of criminal

24     acts.

25             Were you informed that this was part of their jurisdiction?

Page 9823

 1        A.   I was not informed about the document that I am looking at now,

 2     but I did know that this was their jurisdiction, and only theirs.  It

 3     couldn't have been anyone else's.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please move to page 5,

 5     item 11.

 6        Q.   Here it also reads that they're responsible for conducting

 7     administrative duties with regard to procurement, holding and carrying

8     weapons and ammunition and issues approvals in that regard.

 9             Did you know that this was also their exclusive jurisdiction?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please now have a look

12     at item 18.  It's the following page in B/C/S and in English.  I think

13     that it's still on the screen.

14        Q.   It says there that in the civilian affairs organs, the commands

15     of places are to take measures, both preventive and repressive, to

16     present sabotage activities, the spreading of defeatism, and so on.

17             Did you know that this was also within their jurisdiction?

18        A.   I didn't know all the details, but generally I did know this,

19     because it was a jurisdiction within the JNA's zone of responsibility and

20     also the military administration's jurisdiction.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at

22     page 9, item 8.  I think that it is on page 9.  Yes.

23        Q.   The last sentence of item 8 reads that the order of superior

24     commanders, should the execution of it not constitute a criminal act, is

25     legally binding.

Page 9824

 1             Were you aware of this?

 2        A.   No, I didn't know that.

 3        Q.   And another thing, Mr. Hadzic, as this document often mentions

4     co-operation with civilian authorities, I'm interested in knowing whether

 5     you or the government were familiarised with the contents in any way

 6     whatsoever, not just by receiving such military instructions but verbally

7     or in writing or in any way?

 8        A.   No, we were not informed about this.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P3163.  It is tab number 714.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Zivanovic, this document is under seal.  We are not

13     broadcasting it.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, it should not be broadcasted.  Sorry.

15        Q.   [Interpretation] It is a document about talks held on

16     8 April, 1992, between representatives of the international community and

17     General Pujic, who is the author of the previous document that we looked

18     at.  Let us not quote the whole document because it's quite long.  They

19     complained a lot about the situation and the lack of protection of the

20     civilians in the SBWS territory, and they addressed him.  In view of the

21     date, the 7th of April, 1992, I'd like to know whether you think that it

22     was precisely the JNA, the Federal Secretariat of National Defence, that

23     was the correct address where they ought to have raised this issue and

24     who was able to resolve such an issue?

25             MR. STRINGER:  I object to the leading question, Mr. President.

Page 9825

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I rephrase the question.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Could you tell us what were the responsibilities that the JNA had

 6     in April 1992 with regard to protecting the population in the SBWS

 7     territory.

 8        A.   I think that the JNA had the sole responsibility.  It was on the

9     side which had signed the Vance Plan.  The Serbs and their leadership in

10     Slavonia and Baranja only accepted it, but those who signed it and took

11     on themselves the obligation to implement it were the federal state on

12     the one hand and the Republic of Croatia on the other.  So that those who

13     had come from the UN knew who was responsible and who they should

14     address.

15        Q.   I will read out to you one paragraph from page 3 of this

16     document.  Or, rather, I won't read it out to you but I will just

17     summarise it so that we wouldn't take up too much time.

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 9826

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 9827

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we now please have P2751.

25     It's tab 624.


Page 9828

 1        Q.   This is another order from the Command of the 1st Military

 2     District dated the 7th of January, 1992.  I will ask you to focus on

 3     item 2, which reads that:

 4             "The Town Commands of BeliManastir, Vukovar, Dalj, Osijek, based

 5     in Tenja and Vinkovci, based in Mirkovci, shall be responsible for

 6     carrying out civil affairs throughout the territory of the municipality

 7     in whose centre they are located."

 8             Please tell me whether the civil affairs organs were responsible

 9     for carrying out civil affairs throughout the municipalities where they

10     were located.

11        A.   Yes, obviously it was.

12        Q.   And other and than these municipalities, was there any other

13     territory in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

14        A.   No.  This was 100 per cent coverage of SBWS of the five

15     municipalities.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P1717.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.  Sorry.  Tab number 385.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an order by the Command of the

20     1st Mechanised Corps of the 18th of February, 1992, and it's an analysis

21     of the work of Military Districts.  It also appoints a commission and

22     other matters.  I would like to ask you to look at item 3, please.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that this is on page 3 of

24     the English translation of the document and on page 2 of the original.

25        Q.   The order here is to "examine the work of the local commanders

Page 9829

1     and authorities in the rural local communes."  The order also states

 2     that, "All comprised officials are to be removed and that -- tested and

 3     trusted people ought to be appointed."

 4             Are you able to tell us how you understand this point on

5     appointing tested and trusted people?

 6        A.   I understand it just as it's written, but also according to the

 7     situation in the field, and that meant tested and trusted people from the

 8     perspective of the Yugoslav People's Army and its policies.

 9        Q.   Paragraph 4 here which talks about the protection from threats of

10     liquidation and terror of loyal non-Serb citizens, I think that we

11     already discussed this on the basis of a different document which was

12     issued by its superior command.

13             What I'm interested here, however, is item 6, which orders that

14     all measures should be taken in order to prevent paramilitary units from

15     organising and from spending time in the area of responsibility.

16             According to what you know about the situation in late

17     February 1992, this attempt to prevent paramilitary units from forming,

18     was that in the jurisdiction of the authorities?

19        A.   This was exclusively in the jurisdiction of the JNA.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see document 2950, tab 661.

21             Sorry, is it 2950?

22             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, counsel.  This is a 65 ter number or

23     a --

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  No, P.

25             MR. STRINGER:  A P number?

Page 9830

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  A P number.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   This is another report from the Command of the

 5     1st Mechanised Corps, dated 25th of February, 1992.  In brief, the

 6     document states that the work of the Town Command and the president of

 7     the local commune has improved even though there are certain problems

 8     still.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  If we could go to the next page of English

10     translation, please.

11        Q.   And it says that the problems are expressed in the difficulties

12     to elect organs of civilian authorities in the field and the -- their

13     vetting.

14             After that, it says that the election of those organs is in the

15     jurisdiction of the Executive Board of the government of Slavonia,

16     Baranja, and Western Srem and the municipalities, and that these are most

17     often their people and that if the military authorities interfered in

18     this, that would cause the dissatisfaction on the part of the government

19     and the people.

20             First of all, could you please tell us what this vetting was or

21     verification of their suitability to be elected into the organs of

22     civilian authority?  Was this something that was done officially by the

23     government, or was it an unofficial procedure?

24        A.   I never heard of it officially.  Nobody informed us about

25     anything like that.

Page 9831

 1             As for the unofficial part, I already said that this was an

2     official thing from the aspect of the policy of the JNA.

 3        Q.   And is this assertion correct that the election of these organs

 4     under the jurisdiction of the Executive Board of the SBWS -- are you

 5     aware that these Executive Boards or the government was responsible for

6     the election of these organs?

 7        A.   The bodies that we discussed earlier were appointed by the army.

 8     Only once civilian authorities are set up, then the civilian authorities

 9     would be responsible once they assumed power.  But what is not clear to

10     me with this document is that the heading is the 25th of February, but

11     the -- the document actually refers to the 27th of February, a couple of

12     days later.  So it's not clear to me how this exactly happens.

13        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  The Defence counsel microphone was switched

15     off.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, on the first page.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You're talking about the first page.  Can we first go back to the

19     first page of the English text.

20             Yes, what you mean to say is that the date of the letter, which

21     is the answer to the request of the superior command, was written before

22     the command actually requested it.

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I noticed that because now suddenly the

24     government is being talked about, whereas, the entire time they worked

25     without any sort of agreement with the government or without any

Page 9832

1     reference to it at all.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, D37.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is tab 1234.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   You cannot really see the document very well, the original, but

13     the translation is legible.  Among other things, it is stated in the

14     document that the local communes even -- that the local communes provided

15     a list of persons whose safety is not being guaranteed.

16             Can you please tell me, did you know about this?  Do you know who

17     drafted the list?  At whose request?  Why did the local communes make

18     such lists and sends them to the army?

19        A.   I didn't know about this.  These local communes sent this to the

20     army in a kind of personal way because these were local communes that

21     were actually formed by the army.

22        Q.   When you say "local communes formed by the army," are you

23     thinking of the local commune organs, the leadership of the local

24     communes?

25        A.   Yes, I'm thinking of the leadership.  Leadership that they

Page 9833

 1     referred to as being suitable.  Suitable, as far as they were concerned.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see P1715.  Sorry, it is tab 383.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a daily report of the organ for civilian

 4     affairs dated the 22nd of February about a meeting that was held the day

5     before in Mirkovci.  Attendees were mentioned, those who attended the

6     meeting.  I note that - and I'm asking you as well - whether anybody from

 7     the government, you or somebody else, did anybody attend this meeting?

 8        A.   Nobody from the government attended the meeting.  I wasn't even

 9     informed about it.

10        Q.   In item 2, it is stated that the meeting was conducted by

11     Major-General MicoDelic.  I don't see him mentioned among those

12     attending, but I don't doubt that that was so.

13             I would like to know:  Were you informed about the meeting later,

14     or the results of the meeting?  I'm not thinking only of you but of the

15     government as a whole.

16        A.   I personally was not informed about it.  Because after the

17     26th of February, I was no longer carrying out those duties.  I don't

18     think that the government was informed either, but I'm not sure.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we look at item 5, please.

20     This is on the following page of the English translation.

21        Q.   There are proposals here by the civilian affairs organ.  Under

22     article -- item 5 (a) which states:

23             "Measures are to be taken at the level of the government of the

24     Eastern Slavonia, Western Srem, and Baranja to quickly resolve the issue

25     of settlement in areas that were hitherto unsettled, those being the

Page 9834

1     villages of Nijemci, Apsevci, Podgradje, Lipovac, Slakovci, and to more

 2     effectively change the national makeup in places that are already

 3     settled."

 4             Were you and the government informed that a JNA organ put forward

5     such a solution?  Did you receive such a proposal from any JNA organ to

6     this effect?

 7        A.   We never received such a proposal, and so far I've never heard

 8     even that something like that existed.

 9        Q.   We see under (b) another proposal from the same person:

10             "For all displaced persons, regardless of their nationality, if

11     they have participated in Ustasha units in any way, to be prohibited from

12     returning to this area."

13             Were you aware of such a proposal from the JNA?

14        A.   No, I wasn't.

15        Q.   Let us look at item (d):

16             "It is our opinion that Ceric village should be completely

17     evacuated ..."

18             Was this notified to you or the government?

19        A.   Neither I nor the government were informed of this.

20        Q.   We'll look at one more document from this batch.  P167, tab 126.

21             It's a document authored by the same person only three days later

22     sent directly to the Federal Secretary for National Defence, and if we

23     look at item (b) -- I believe it's on page 3 in English.  The text in

24     English actually begins on page 2.  The author lists major problems that

25     make the work of civilian authorities difficult.

Page 9835

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And we can now move to the next

 2     page in English.

 3        Q.   Right at the beginning it says:

 4             "One of the problems is the emergence and existence of

 5     self-proclaimed governments and their ministers who arrogate the right to

 6     meddle in the work and organisation of civilian authorities."

 7             Looking at this reference to self-proclaimed governments, would

 8     you say that the government of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was

 9     called self-proclaimed?

10        A.   Yes, more than once.  Both Serbia and Croatia and the

11     international community labelled us that way.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, it is that time.  Would that be

13     convenient for you or ...

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We can -- we can break now, Your Honours.  I put

15     this question after break.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             Court adjourned.

18                           --- Recess taken at 12.16 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] We still have on the screen the same document.

23     We should now move to page 2 of the original and the English remains on

24     the same page.

25             I'm interested in the first paragraph you see in the original,

Page 9836

 1     just before paragraph 2, referring to the intolerance between the Serbs

2     who have moved in and the local Croats.  It refers also to pressure

 3     exerted on people to move out and even physical clashes and liquidations

4     in secret.

 5             Is this true, to the best of your knowledge?  It refers to the

6     same things as the previous document.

 7        A.   No, it is not true.  And if I hadn't seen both documents here, I

 8     wouldn't even believe that somebody would be capable of such conflation

 9     and ascribing to the government various directives and instructions that

10     were actually issued by somebody entirely different.

11        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, would you kindly tell us how did it come about that

12     you were elected president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

13        A.   When Milan Babic rejected the Vance Plan and when the political

14     preconditions were met for various districts within Croatia to unite, it

15     was necessary for somebody to accept to become the president of the

16     Serbian Krajina.  It never crossed my mind before that it should be me,

17     but Milan Paspalj, president of the assembly, and some more of my

18     associates of mine, talked me into it, saying that it would be a

19     temporary solution, that the situation requires it, that it can be only

20     me because I am able to reconcile all the different parties, and that I

21     am the only acceptable solution.

22        Q.   Were you accepted - and, if so, to what extent - in the part of

23     the Serbian Krajina that was called the Knin Krajina?

24        A.   Among the people in that part of Krajina, I was not really known.

25     I was perhaps known to the SDS leadership, but the people didn't know me,

Page 9837

 1     and the elections later showed that I was never very well accepted there.

 2     When I say "elections," I mean those in 1993.

 3        Q.   Considering that the Republic of Serbian Krajina was made up of

 4     three then separate units, can you tell us to what extent their political

 5     and other interests coincided?  Did they enable them to form one integral

 6     whole and carry on with the harmonised policy?

 7        A.   I'm not sure whether I've spoken about this here before, whether

 8     I'll be repeating myself, the interests of Serbs from Slavonia, Baranja,

 9     and Western Srem were not really such that they would justify unification

10     with Serbs who were 600 kilometres away from us in the Knin Krajina.  We

11     saw it as a temporary and a formal arrangement because the recognition of

12     former Yugoslav republics was on the agenda at the time, and we thought

13     that those republics that had been formed within what we called Communist

14     borders do not have real statehood, or basis, for recognition so that if

15     they are recognised, the Serbian Krajina could also be recognised because

16     it had a basis in history within the former Austro-Hungarian empire, they

17     were recognised before as the so-called military Krajina.  That's why I

18     accepted this post in its temporary and formal dimension.

19             Later on, it assumed a very serious practical dimension as well,

20     where all the resources from Eastern Slavonia were appropriated by the

21     western parts for the whole thing later to escalate and the military

22     personnel from Eastern Slavonia later had to be mobilised to defend

23     Western Slavonia, and that was intolerable.

24        Q.   You have seen and you probably know the constitution of the

25     Republic of Serbian Krajina --

Page 9838

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, L3.  It is tab 1178.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And the document number for the record, please,

 3     Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  The document number is L3.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move on to page 7,

 7     Article 78.  In English, it's page 23.  We can move to the previous page,

8     just to see who is responsible for this.

 9        Q.   Under the constitution that was in force at the time when you

10     were elected, you had certain responsibilities.  And let us now look at

11     point 5 of this article.  It's on the next page.

12             Paragraph 5:  Controls armed forces in peace and in war and

13     people's resistance in wartime, you order general and partial

14     mobilisation, organise preparations for defence, et cetera.

15             How did you understand this particular responsibility?

16        A.   Before I answer your specific question, I should only like to say

17     that this constitution of 19 December, 1991, was adopted when Milan Babic

18     was president and, in gest, my friends and I called it Babic's

19     constitution.  And in this part that relates to the responsibilities of

20     the president, only Babic's picture was missing.  In my own exercise of

21     the duties of president, I did not want the duties and powers of the

22     president of the republic to be so great.

23             As for your question, especially as far as military aspects are

24     concerned, I understood my position as president of the republic in a

25     very realistic way, in the sense that I was aware of my lack of knowledge

Page 9839

1     and experience.  And when you read this point "controls armed forces," to

2     me, it meant a political function because command required professional

3     skills, and I didn't have them.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please look at

 5     Article 102 of the constitution.  It is on page 9 of the original and

 6     page 31 of the English translation.

 7        Q.   At the time when you were elected to the post of the president of

 8     the republic, I see that the armed forces of the Republic of

 9     Serbian Krajina were made only of the Territorial Defence.

10             Do you remember that?

11        A.   Yes, I remember.  The Territorial Defence had already been

12     established before I came to this position.  I think that it was

13     established in accordance with the federal law and that General Torbica

14     was in charge of it, as far as I remember.

15        Q.   And do you remember whether at the time when you were elected the

16     JNA was still present in the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

17        A.   I do.  The JNA was present up until the end of May or early June.

18     It was there parallelly.  When I say "parallelly," I mean that it was

19     completely independent from the organs of the

20     Republic of Serbian Krajina.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, P2637.  It is tab 597.

22        Q.   [Interpretation] If you could please look at the screen, do you

23     see this order on organisational and establishment changes in the units

24     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina Territorial Defence?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 9840

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move one page

 2     forward.

 3        Q.   Can you see who adopted this order and when?

 4        A.   I can see, as everyone present, that it was issued by the

 5     Federal Secretariat for National Defence on the 27th of February, 1992.

 6        Q.   Under A, under Roman numeral I, the setting up of staffs and

 7     units of Territorial Defence of the Republic of Serbian Krajina is

 8     ordered, the time needed for mobilisation, and so on.

 9             If we go through the document, we will see that other units and

10     staffs of Territorial Defence are being formed as well.  What I'm

11     interested in is whether you participated in any way in the drawing up of

12     this order.  Did you play any role in this?

13        A.   I did not play any role, and I did not take part in it.

14        Q.   And was such an order submitted to you as the president of the

15     Republic of Serbian Krajina, though you had been elected just a day

16     before.  But did you ever receive it?

17        A.   No, I never received it.

18        Q.   Did you know that some organisational changes were underway, that

19     some staffs and units were being set up, and so on?

20        A.   No, I didn't know.  Because I only came to Knin later.  Perhaps

21     it was in March.  I don't remember when.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D3563.  It is tab 1416.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Here you can see the materials from the

24     Federal Secretariat of the Interior dated the 24th of February, 1992,

25     sent to the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

Page 9841

 1             It says here that basics of the organisation of the internal

 2     affairs service in the Republic of Serbian Krajina are hereby submitted.

 3     And also an outline of the proposed organisation of the internal affairs

4     service and the Law on Internal Affairs of the Republic of

 5     Serbian Krajina.  Though you had not yet been elected at the time, did

 6     you know that something like this was being prepared; that is to say,

 7     that the Federal Secretariat of the Interior was preparing these

 8     materials and the future organisation of internal affairs in the

 9     Republic of Serbian Krajina?

10        A.   I didn't know.

11        Q.   Were you later informed about this document?

12        A.   No.  I saw it first here in The Hague.

13        Q.   And did you later possibly participate in any way whatsoever or

14     were informed about the preparation of the Law on Internal Affairs, or

15     did you know that the organs of the interior were being organised?

16        A.   No, never.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document.

18             MR. STRINGER:  Objection.  The witness has not laid a sufficient

19     foundation.  He doesn't know anything about it.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I'll not -- I withdraw my request.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Microphone not activated]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9842

 1        Q.   During your term in office, were the armed forces of the

 2     Republic of Serbian Krajina ever used, to the best of your knowledge and

3     recollection?

 4        A.   Yes, several times.  If I remember well, the first occasion was

 5     at Miljevacki Plateau, then there was the Croatian action Maslenica, and

6     in September 1993, theMedak pocket.  So these were the major uses when

 7     we were more fiercely attacked.  And there were many other individual

8     instances of lesser intensity.

 9        Q.   Do you, by any chance, remember when this action at the

10     Miljevacki Plateau took place?

11        A.   I remember that was in June 1992, as soon as the UN took over the

12     zone of responsibility from the JNA and the JNA withdrew.

13        Q.   Do you remember -- or, rather, can you tell us anything about an

14     action that was carried out in the corridor.  This was not in the

15     territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina but in another territory.

16     But if you could tell us what was happening and when?

17        A.   Yes, the Croatian forces cut through the corridor which linked us

18     with the eastern and western parts in the area of Brcko.  Some of the

19     forces of the Republic of Serbian Krajina then participated in breaking

20     through the corridor, together with the forces of RepublikaSrpska.

21        Q.   What was the importance of this corridor for the

22     Republic of Serbian Krajina or at least for the former SAO Krajina or the

23     Knin Krajina?

24        A.   It was vitally important, essentially important, not just for the

25     former SAO Krajina but all of Bosnian Krajina as well, the whole area

Page 9843

 1     that included Banja Luka, Doboj, and so on, because otherwise we would

 2     have been cut off, as if you cut off the root of the plant.  Including

 3     Banja Luka and Doboj, not Dobrinja, yes.

 4        Q.   And what was the threat?  What could not take place if the

5     corridor was cut off?

 6        A.   Well, most simply put, any sort of communication had been cut

7     off, so the movement of people and goods.

 8        Q.   Do you remember when this happened?

 9        A.   I think it was in spring 1992.  I don't know if it was May or

10     not.  I can't remember right now.

11        Q.   And could you tell us, was that after the JNA had withdrawn or

12     before it withdrew, while the JNA was still there?

13        A.   It's a generally known fact.  I could have checked up, but I

14     think it may have been around this time, but I can't say whether it was

15     before or after.

16        Q.   And do you remember whether the JNA units participated in the

17     liberation of the corridor, or was it just the troops you mentioned?

18        A.   I remember well that the JNA units did not participate.  It was

19     the forces of the RSK and the forces of RepublikaSrpska which took part

20     in this.

21        Q.   At that time you had frequent contacts with international

22     representatives.  Let me not show you any documents.  I don't think it is

23     necessary because I suppose that you remember that one of their requests,

24     one that was often voiced, was that all Territorial Defence units and

25     even the police should be disarmed.

Page 9844

 1             How did you perceive this request and how did everyone perceive

 2     that, especially in the context of the attacks on the corridor that you

 3     just talked about and also the attack on the Miljevac Plateau?

 4        A.   We discussed the problem with Mr. Goulding and Mr. Vance when the

 5     Vance Plan was being adopted.  For us, for me, for the leadership and for

 6     most of the people, it was not logical to disarm only one side while

 7     leaving the other side practically with full combat equipment on the

8     other side of the line of demarcation.  And the mediators primarily

 9     guaranteed that the United Nations forces would be able to provide

10     security for us.  However, once it was agreed and the United Nations did

11     come, it turned out that this was not possible.  And I think that that

12     position was not a fair one:  To disarm one side while allowing the other

13     side to attack wherever and whenever they wanted, without any

14     consequences.

15        Q.   In view of those demands, what was your own position in relation

16     to those demands during the talks?

17        A.   At first, I believed those people who provided those guarantees,

18     but as time went by, I became more and more skeptical and began to lose

19     faith.

20        Q.   And what was the position of other organs of authority in the

21     Republic of the Serbian Krajina; for example, of the government, the

22     Territorial Defence, and the people also who lived there, in relation to

23     these demands?

24        A.   I think that most of them were a bit more hard-line than I was.

25     I was a bit more naive and more trusting.  But because of the bad

Page 9845

 1     experiences that we had had in World War II and in general, there was a

 2     lot of fear among the people.  They didn't have a lot of confidence in

 3     what was being said.

 4        Q.   And who was it that they were not confident about?

 5        A.   First of all, they did not trust that the Croatian side would

 6     respect the agreement.  All the weapons were left with the Croats.  They

 7     were just a couple of kilometres away from the -- their houses.

 8        Q.   Are you able to tell us anything about the position -- well, we

 9     can see that by law and by constitution, you were in charge of the armed

10     forces.  So what was your practical position throughout the entire

11     period, not only when you were elected in 1992 but throughout your term

12     of office as the president of the Serbian Republic of the Krajina till

13     1993?  What was your position regarding the armed forces, because this

14     changed so it was not just the TO that was making them up?

15        A.   I've already said that I was aware that I didn't have any

16     military training and that I was only in charge in the formal extent,

17     whereas, all the other decision-making was entrusted to the people who

18     were capable of making such decisions.  Everything that I signed and all

19     the decisions that I made were a result of things that were proposed by

20     those people.  None of that was something that came from me.  Basically I

21     was just carrying out the formal aspect of my duties.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, L49.  It is tab 1214.  We can

23     move on next page of English translation.

24        Q.   [Interpretation] In April 1993, the constitution was amended, the

25     constitution of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, when it was declared

Page 9846

 1     that the Republic of the Serbian Krajina had an army, that it had its

 2     permanent and reserve forces.

 3             First of all, are you able to tell us whether this establishment

 4     of the Army of the Serbian Krajina in April 1993 had anything to do with

 5     earlier events in the military area, anything to do with confrontations

6     that occurred in the area?

 7        A.   Well, I believed that this was a forced move, that we had to do

 8     this, because there were constant threats and attacks coming from

 9     Croatia.

10        Q.   Do you recall any particular event that preceded this amendment?

11        A.   I already referred to it.  It was the so-called Maslenica action

12     in January of 1992.  Sorry, 1993.

13        Q.   Before the amendment was made, was there an attempt made to reach

14     a peaceful solution, to achieve a peaceful withdrawal from the territory

15     in question, or was this measure immediately resorted to?

16        A.   Of course we did not immediately resort to this measure.  We

17     tried everything to find a peaceful solution.  I took part in

18     negotiations to implement an UN resolution requesting Croatia to return

19     to its pre-aggression positions.  The talks were conducted in New York on

20     two occasions.

21        Q.   And what was the outcome of these negotiations?

22        A.   It didn't come to much.  If we keep in mind that Croatia did not

23     implement the resolution, they didn't withdraw, and they didn't accept

24     anything.  UN troops did not protect us either.  I even had information

25     that they actually were helping the Croatian side with some intelligence

Page 9847

 1     matters.  More specifically, it was the French Battalion.  I had the

2     opportunity this year in a TV programme on Croatian television to hear

3     this from one of the commanders of their units in person.

 4        Q.   Amendment 12 also states that the commander of the

 5     Army of RepublikaSrpska Krajina is appointed by the assembly upon the

6     proposal of the Supreme Defence Council.

 7             Do you know who was appointed commander of the Serbian

 8     Army of the Krajina?

 9        A.   Yes, it was Mile Novakovic.

10        Q.   The next amendment, Amendment 13 - it's on the next page of the

11     English translation - changes your powers, the powers of the president of

12     the republic.  Now it says that you are at the head of the

13     Army of the Serbian Krajina pursuant to the constitution and decisions of

14     the Supreme Defence Council and that you preside over the

15     Supreme Defence Council.

16             Are you able to tell us how you understood this role of presiding

17     over the Supreme Defence Council?

18        A.   I understood it for what it was; that is, that I was first among

19     equals, everybody was there on an equal footing, and I was just the

20     person who was chairing the body.

21        Q.   Are you able to tell us who were other members of this body, as

22     far as you can recall?

23        A.   There was also the commander of the army.  There were three

24     government members:  The prime minister, the defence minister, and the

25     minister of the interior.  And, of course, I, myself.

Page 9848

 1        Q.   Would you be able to make a comparison between your own knowledge

 2     of military affairs and the knowledge of military affairs of any other

3     member of the Supreme Defence Council?

 4        A.   The prime minister and I were in an inferior position in such

5     terms in relation to the other three.  The commander of the army and the

6     defence minister were the most knowledgeable among us in this area.

 7        Q.   Amendment 13 also states that you were also authorised to make

 8     decisions on the setting up, the seat, and the competence of military

 9     courts and prosecutor's offices and to appoint and dismiss the president

10     and judges of the military court and prosecutor's office.

11             Are you able to tell us if this decision was actually implemented

12     during your term of office?  Were military courts and prosecutor's

13     offices actually set up from April 1993 until the end of the year?  I'm

14     talking about that period.

15        A.   I cannot really be sure about that now, so I cannot state that

16     with any degree of certainty.  However, I understood this constitutional

17     amendment in general terms, because I didn't have an expert team in the

18     president's office, so I would have had to sign the formal decision based

19     on recommendations of a government expert team.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we look at Amendment 14,

21     please.

22        Q.   I'm only going to ask you about the powers of the

23     Supreme Defence Council.  I can see that, amongst other things, the

24     Supreme Defence Council was in charge of declaring the possibility of an

25     imminent threat of war and dealt with mobilisation.  Could you please

Page 9849

 1     tell me whether this was actually part of your powers originally as

 2     president of the republic before these an amendments were made?

 3        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 4        Q.   Do you remember after the Maslenica action by Croatian forces you

 5     did declare a state of war and -- and mobilisation?

 6        A.   Yes, I do remember that.

 7        Q.   And what was your position towards the government of the

 8     Republic of the Serbian Krajina?  What were your powers in relation to

9     that body?

10        A.   Well, to put it in the clearest terms, I thought that they were

11     like a parallel body.  I and the government were responsible to the

12     assembly.

13        Q.   When you say "parallel body," you mean to the extent that you

14     were elected by the assembly and were responsible to the assembly.

15        A.   Yes.  I never saw the government as a body that was under me,

16     controlled by me, a body on which I could impose my own will.

17        Q.   Were your powers separated?

18        A.   I believe the constitution has dealt with that.  They were

19     separated.

20        Q.   Did the government submit to you any reports, like work progress

21     reports, what measures it should take?  Did they consult you on the steps

22     to be taken?

23        A.   To the best of my recollection, it never did.  In fact, I don't

24     remember that the government ever consulted me.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, L54.

Page 9850

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you explain to us Article 3.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's on the next page in English.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a bit?  I can't

 4     see.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I'd just like to clear this up considering that it is written in

 7     the constitution that the president controls armed forces and that the

8     army is commanded by the commander of the Serbian Army of Krajina.  And

 9     here in the law, we see that the army is under the command of the

10     president of the republic.  Is it because the law was passed a few days

11     before the amendments?

12        A.   Obviously.  Because, otherwise, the law would be

13     anti-constitutional.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go back to the first

15     page just to see the date.

16        Q.   My impression is that this law was passed before those amendments

17     that were enacted on the 22nd, that is, two days later.  Do you agree?

18             MR. STRINGER:  Objection to the leading question about what

19     counsel's impression is.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I rephrase my question.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Would you tell me on what date the Law on the Army

24     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina was passed.

25        A.   As we can all see, it was on 20th April, 1993.  That's two days

Page 9851

1     before those amendments.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see the next page of this document in

3     original.

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see Article 6 which reads:

 5             "The army commander shall command the army in keeping with the

6     decisions of the Supreme Defence Council."

 7        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 8        Q.   Was this provision enforced during the rest of your term of

9     office, that the army commander commands the Army of the Serbian Krajina?

10        A.   Yes, that's the only way it worked.

11        Q.   Did you ever command the Army of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

12        A.   Never, and I wasn't able to.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, L55.  It is tab 1218.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] This is the 8th amendment, enacted in May 1992,

15     which stipulates that the president of the republic shall appoint the

16     commander of the Territorial Defence and also assess judges, or

17     judge/jurors.  The powers that the president here -- are phrased in such

18     a way that the president appoints the TO commander but is not able to

19     dismiss him.

20        A.   Yes, he can only appoint and dismiss presidents of courts, but

21     not the TO commander.  He cannot dismiss the TO commander.

22        Q.   At the time when you were elected president of the RSK, who was

23     the commander of the Territorial Defence of the Serbian

24     Army of Krajina -- sorry, Territorial Defence.  And who appointed him?

25        A.   At that time the commander was General Milan Torbica, and I

Page 9852

 1     believe he was appointed by the federal secretary.

 2        Q.   Does it mean that, in accordance with this provision, you were

 3     not able to replace him or to dismiss him from that position, if you saw

 4     fit?

 5        A.   It's obvious from this amendment.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, L8.  It is tab 1183.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is a decision on the return of refugees.

10             In the original, it's on the left.

11             You are probably familiar with this decision.  It was discussed

12     also during the examination-in-chief.  What can you tell us about this

13     decision?  Do you know when it was passed?  Was it the subject of debate?

14     Or discussion with representatives of the international community?

15        A.   I see it was passed on the 21st of April, 1992.  I don't know

16     specifically whether it was discussed with representatives of the

17     international community, considering that it's a decision of the

18     government.  But I know we discussed with the international community the

19     general issue of the return of refugees, and I suppose that this decision

20     isin line with those discussions.

21        Q.   Can you tell us, speaking of the return of refugees, which

22     refugees did you discuss with the international representatives?

23        A.   Our side wanted those discussions to cover Serb refugees as well,

24     but representatives of the international community were only interested

25     in Croat refugees.  They were not interested in Serb refugees.

Page 9853

 1        Q.   Did a problem occur about the return of Croat refugees; and, if

 2     so, what was the problem?

 3        A.   There was more than one problem, but the main one was that those

 4     Croat houses were now occupied by Serb refugees, and we had to find some

5     way to provide accommodation.  There were no specific proposals.  There

 6     was just the demand for Croats to return, and I had a feeling that Serb

 7     refugees were second-class citizens.  Nobody even mentioned them.

 8        Q.   Did negotiators offer some mediation with the Croat authorities

 9     to enable Serb refugees to return to their homes at the same time as the

10     Croats would return to theirs?

11        A.   That was our first and principal demand, but we did not meet with

12     any understanding.  The negotiators did try, but they were not very firm

13     in their attempts, whereas, Croatia did not even want to discuss it.

14             But there were more problems.  Croat refugees did not want to

15     return into an area that was under our authority.  So, at the time, it

16     was practically impossible to solve the problem.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, I would need a few minutes for

18     administrative matters.  So if it is convenient for you to do that now.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Okay.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             First thing is the private or public session and lifting

22     eventually some parts of the private designation we gave yesterday.

23     You've probably seen Mr. Stringer's suggestions in this regard.  Do you

24     have a position on them or would you need to look into them further?

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I apologise, but I -- I'd like to have some --


Page 9854

 1     some time --

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- to see.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We hear from you; right?

 5             Then how long -- how long would you still have with this witness,

 6     Mr. Zivanovic?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I -- I don't know at the moment how much time I

 8     have, but --

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Some time ago you -- pardon?  Three hours.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honour, I'll do my best to finish tomorrow,

11     but --

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- maybe some time would be needed, additional

14     time would be needed.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Hadzic, we'll adjourn for the day.  You're still a witness

17     under oath.

18             Court adjourned.

19                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

21                           July, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.