Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9903

 1                           Thursday, 17 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom.

 8             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  May we have the appearances, please,

12     starting with the Prosecution.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

14     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case Manager,

15     Thomas Laugel; legal interns, Lucy Jones and Sarah Munsch.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

19     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell, with legal intern,

20     Philipp Mueller.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 


Page 9904

 1                           Examination by Mr. Zivanovic: [Continued]

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, yesterday we started talking about

 3     crimes which were committed in the SBWS territory and later the territory

 4     of the Republic of Serbian Krajina in the period covered by the

 5     indictment, up until the end of 1993.  As it follows from the

 6     proceedings, you were informed that such acts were committed.  Could you

 7     please tell me whether you took any steps when, for example, the

 8     international observers informed you about such events?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  You just said who informed me about this.  Mostly it

10     was the international negotiators who informed me about this, whether

11     from the European community or from the UN.  When government

12     representatives were at a meeting with me, I would then directly tell

13     them to check it if they had heard it, or if they were not present, I

14     would call the prime minister or one of the ministers and give them the

15     task to verify the information and then do what was usual by the law.

16        Q.   Did you receive any feedback from the people from the government

17     or from the judiciary and the police about whether anything was done

18     about this?

19        A.   In most cases, the people I told to do this would tell me that

20     they already knew about it and that procedure was ongoing, that

21     investigation was ongoing.  So later on they wouldn't inform me about

22     legal proceedings because, in a way, it wasn't even my right.  The

23     executive authorities were charged to do this.  If they didn't know, they

24     would tell me they would check whether it was true or not, and often they

25     informed me that it was true or wasn't, and if it was, that then the


Page 9905

 1     appropriate procedure had been implemented.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I will now show you some of the court documents which

 3     we obtained from the relevant period, and I will ask you to tell us what

 4     you know about them, if anything.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1298, tab 832.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] You will certainly remember that there was a lot

 7     of talk about Baranja and events there, the pressure that was exerted on

 8     the non-Serbs so that they would move out.

 9             Could you please look at the document on the screen, or I believe

10     you have it with you - it's an indictment against two persons - and tell

11     us whether you knew that the courts in the area prosecuted the people who

12     exerted pressure on Croats to move out.  This is just such a case.

13        A.   I knew that there were such incidents.  And if I remember well, I

14     believe I said so yesterday that it was a human problem and it was also a

15     political problem because it would have been political ruin to let these

16     people be maltreated just because they were of a different ethnicity, and

17     it was our firm position that such acts had to be punished.

18        Q.   Could you tell us why that was a political problem for you.

19        A.   Perhaps from this perspective:  My position may seem like a

20     utopia because it turns out that the process has been completed there,

21     but we wanted our district which was supposed to remain in Yugoslavia to

22     be legally and politically strong, that public law and order was

23     observed, that there was no crime, so that we could apply to be

24     recognised as one of the new republics within the new world order, to

25     find a place for ourselves.  So we didn't want to be an area where crime


Page 9906

 1     reigned and where there was no rule of law.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D1298 becomes Exhibit D143,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D1331, tab 863.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, you will remember for sure that

 8     during this case one of the witnesses - I can't remember whether he was

 9     protected or not but let me not mention his name - on the 6th of April --

10     in any case, it's on page 3206 of the transcript.  He talked about

11     forcible transfer of Croats and non-Serbs from Tovarnik which took place

12     on the 24th of May, 1992.  I'd like to know whether you had any

13     information that court proceedings were initiated against the

14     perpetrators?

15        A.   Yes.  Because the crime took place in the transitional period, as

16     the army was leaving and the UNPROFOR was arriving.  So our legal system

17     did not swing into full gear yet, and I did receive the information that

18     these people were arrested and prosecuted.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see the second page both in B/C/S and

20     English, please.

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Can you see from the text of the indictment that

22     these eight Serbs were indicted for that specific event which took place

23     in the night between the 23rd and the 24th of May, 1992?

24        A.   Yes, it's clearly visible from the document.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we could please move to the


Page 9907

 1     next page, both in the English and in the original.

 2        Q.   You will see in the second paragraph that it says that they are

 3     indicted because they attacked or committed an act of violence under

 4     circumstances causing anxiety among the people of another ethnicity and

 5     insecurity.

 6             Were you informed that these people were being prosecuted?

 7        A.   Yes, I did have such information, but the courts did not

 8     specifically inform me about this because it was not within my

 9     jurisdiction.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D144, Your Honours.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1380, tab 862.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, this is also a decision remanding

15     two people in custody because of mistreatment of people of other

16     ethnicity.  The details are contained herein.  The document says that

17     this took place in Nijemci village.  Could you tell us whether -- or,

18     rather, what was the ethnic composition of the population of this

19     village, Nijemci?

20        A.   I have good information about this because Nijemci village is

21     part of the Vinkovci municipality where I attended high school.  I know

22     that Nijemci was almost 99 per cent Croatian village before the war.

23     Nijemci's located at the far east of the municipality.  It was called the

24     Srem triangle, facing the border with Serbia.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.


Page 9908

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D145, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1444.  It is tab 888.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a judgement passed in a case against

 6     four Serbs.  It is an acquittal.  But the prosecution charged the accused

 7     with the commission of crimes against citizens of Croatian ethnicity in

 8     Jankovci village.  We can see that on the following page, both in the

 9     original and in the English translation.

10             Could you tell us about this Jankovci village.  Where was it

11     located and who was it populated by, from what you know?

12        A.   Jankovci is also located in the Vinkovci municipality.  It's a

13     border village next to Mirkovci village.  Jankovci had a majority

14     Croatian population, even though there was a percentage of Serbs, mostly

15     from Dalmatia who had arrived after World War II.  Perhaps around 20

16     per cent.  I knew that as I had some school mates from Jankovci.  But one

17     can see from the judgement that the perpetrators who were accused were

18     all Serbs who arrived after 1991 to Jankovci as refugees from

19     Western Slavonia.  That doesn't mean anything in itself, but I just

20     noticed it.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Your Honour, we would object - excuse me.  We

23     object to this one.  According to the document, the indictment did not

24     originate until March of 1994 which is the time when the accused was no

25     longer in power as president of the RSK, and the judgement here is then


Page 9909

 1     from early 1995.  So this is all happening post-indictment period and

 2     post-period where Mr. Hadzic is president of the RSK.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is -- it is obvious that it is the crime --

 4     the crime committed in 1992, in March 1992.  And before the judgement,

 5     there was investigation proceeding, and the other proceeding, trial.

 6     That -- there was a trial, so this judgement was rendered in 1994 or -- I

 7     don't know when exactly, but it is irrelevant because the trial was going

 8     on before the judgement.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And do we know from this document or otherwise

10     when the -- when the investigation began, when the -- the -- the trial

11     began?

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  I -- I can say that I think that we have --

14     we have the next document.  It is 1D1451.  It is the criminal report to

15     the prosecution by the police against these accused, and I think that the

16     date of this criminal report is before -- well before 1994.

17                           [Defence counsel confer]

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry.  You say

19     the next document.  Is that --

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- the next tab?  What tab is it?  Let us look at

22     it.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, we can go to the -- to the third page of

24     previous document.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The third page of the previous document.  Okay.


Page 9910

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, and it says that criminal investigation or

 2     the investigation of the crime scene was carried out in March 1992.  It

 3     is on the third page of the -- of this -- of the judgement, of prior

 4     document.  It is -- it is one-but-last paragraph.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you help me to find it, Mr. Zivanovic, or

 6     read it.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It -- yeah.  In evidentiary procedure, the Court

 8     read out the medical report of 7th of March, 1992, (case file pages 12

 9     and 13), the forensic investigation report (case file page 17), inspected

10     the photographic documentation (case file page 18) and a sketch of the

11     crime scene, the receipt for temporarily seized items (case file

12     page 27), travel document, passport number so-and-so.  By SUP --

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It's okay, Mr. Zivanovic.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And the crucial is the report of examination of

15     the crime scene of 7 of March, 1992, inspected the decision of

16     11 March, 1992, the letter of the military court in Belgrade,

17     30 March, 1992, et cetera.  And it is obvious that the procedure started

18     in 1992, immediately after the crime took place.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. STRINGER:  We'll withdraw the objection, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Unfortunately, we haven't had an opportunity on

23     our side to analyse these because they came in late.  So I'm all seeing

24     this for the first time.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.


Page 9911

 1             Please continue, Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I --

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Of course.  That means that the document is

 5     admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be document 1D1444 --

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  -- and it becomes Exhibit D146.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1506.  It is tab 908.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a judgement convicting three Serbs for

12     the crime of murder.  They killed a Croatian woman in the village of

13     Lovas in 1993.

14             My question is this:  Generally speaking, do you know what the

15     situation was like in 1993?  We have heard a lot about events from 1991,

16     but what was the situation like after that, in 1992 and 1993, while you

17     were president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina?

18        A.   I know that at the time there was a Serbian majority in Lovas.

19     There was a meeting in Lovas which I attended in 1993, I believe, with

20     the Croats there and the leadership of the village.  It included the

21     Croats who still lived there but wished to leave Lovas.  After the

22     meeting with me, as far as I could learn, they did not leave Lovas; they

23     remained there.  In a conversation with assistant minister of the police,

24     I think, who was there, or maybe I gave him a phone call later on, in any

25     case, we agreed that police patrols be increased there as requested by


Page 9912

 1     the inhabitants, and I think that cases such as this one were then

 2     further prevented and any perpetrators arrested.  However, the accused in

 3     this case were not all Serbs.  The third accused is a Croat, I believe.

 4        Q.   That is correct.  We can also see it in the text.  I did not

 5     notice that.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we move to the next page,

 7     please, so that we can see what it is about and what was the crime that

 8     was committed.

 9             I think the text continues on the next page where the acts of the

10     accused are described.  We can actually see that there were four of them,

11     rather than three as I said.

12             Your Honours, I would tender this document.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D147.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1744.  It is tab 947.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] This event took place in November 1991 in

18     Brsadin.  Do you know anything about this event?

19        A.   Brsadin is a neighbouring village to mine, and I actually knew

20     the perpetrator.

21        Q.   Is this correct -- actually, can you tell us what his last name

22     was, since we do not have that recorded precisely in the English

23     translation.

24        A.   His last name was Dula, D-u-l-a.  There were two brothers, Nikola

25     and Pero Dula, in Brsadin.  I knew them both.  They liked to drink and


Page 9913

 1     cause incidents.  I knew that since before the war.

 2        Q.   What was the ethnicity of the killed person; if you know?

 3        A.   I do.  He was a Hungarian.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender this document.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D148, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1747, tab 948.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] This is also an indictment for the crime of

10     murder.  A person was killed on the 10th of April, 1992, in Novi Bezdan.

11     Can you tell us where it is, since we haven't had an occasion to hear of

12     it during the proceedings?

13        A.   Novi Bezdan is in Baranja, in the Beli Manastir municipality.

14        Q.   Can you tell us what was the ethnicity of the person who was

15     killed.

16        A.   He was a Hungarian by ethnicity.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tendered this document.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D149.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Excuse me, Mr. President, just noting on this last

22     one -- I haven't really been looking at all of them, but on this one that

23     we're now looking at in the English, it appears that we don't have the

24     full document.  It ends with the statement of reasons which appears to

25     have been redacted, and I'd suggest that -- well, probably what we're


Page 9914

 1     going to do is go back and look to make sure that all of these coming in,

 2     the translations are complete.  This one does not appear to be complete.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, we've got this particular document

 5     and some other documents incomplete from the archive of Serbia, and we

 6     provide the certification that they have no -- that -- that some

 7     documents are not complete.  And I don't know why, but that's -- that --

 8     that's the state of affairs, and I -- I'd -- we -- we put all these

 9     documents even when I -- incomplete on our list.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So if you have them in -- in your archives

11     complete as -- as complete document, Mr. Stringer [sic], you will, of

12     course, tell us.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Whenever we had complete documents, we put it

14     in --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's what I understand.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- documents.  Yes.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue, Mr. Zivanovic.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  May we see, please,

19     1D1760.  It's tab 954.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] This is also an indictment relating to a rape

21     committed in Tovarnik, also in 1991.  And I just wanted to ask:  Were

22     crimes like this also prosecuted, while we are speaking about the police

23     and the judiciary of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and the Republic

24     of Serbian Krajina?

25        A.   To the best of my knowledge, all crimes that were detected were


Page 9915

 1     prosecuted.  In this case, it's interesting that the crime was committed

 2     towards the end of 1991.  And already in the beginning of 1992, when the

 3     judiciary began to operate, it was prosecuted.

 4        Q.   You mean the investigation was completed in this case before this

 5     indictment was issued?

 6        A.   That's what I conclude from the dates.  Before it was difficult

 7     because the courts were only in the process of being established.  The

 8     military rule prevailed until the spring of 1992.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

10             MR. STRINGER:  We just note for the record, Mr.  President, it's

11     another incomplete document.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic your last intervention has not been

13     recorded, and I didn't hear it.  Were you asking to -- were you tendering

14     the document?

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I asked -- I asked tendering of this

16     document into evidence.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D150, Your Honours.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1768.  It is tab 957.

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Hadzic, we see a crime of robbery, or

21     aggravated robbery, that happened in Darda in May 1992.  Can you tell us

22     what was the situation in Darda in 1992, as far as you remember?

23        A.   At the time, Darda was a majority Serb place and it had a police

24     station.  There were problems but they were dealt with.  And, by the way,

25     I remember this convict and I remember him by chance because once a year,


Page 9916

 1     as the president of the republic, I toured prisons in Beli Manastir, and

 2     I remember this name and surname.

 3             When I arrived, they were standing at attention by their beds,

 4     and I asked this man, Why are you here?  And he says, They say that I

 5     killed somebody, and they say I also robbed him, which is not true.  I

 6     remember that because it was funny.  Everybody in the prison says they

 7     are innocent.  Sometimes it's true and sometimes not.  But now I see

 8     specifically the charges against him.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would admit this -- I would

10     tendered this document, sorry.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D151.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D769.  Sorry -- 17 -- 1769,

15     tab 958.

16        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an indictment for multiple murder

17     committed in Popovac village.  Where is this village, if you know,

18     because, so far, it hasn't been mentioned.

19        A.   Popovac is in Baranja, Beli Manastir municipality.  If I

20     remember, it was mixed:  Serb and Croat, maybe even Hungarians.  About

21     the Hungarians, I'm not sure.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Yeah, Mr. President, it's a one-page document

25     that's clearly not complete.  Doesn't tell us anything about what


Page 9917

 1     happened to this case eventually.  I recognise that it's an indictment.

 2     Looking at the original, one could speculate whether actually there's

 3     text on the opposite side of this page that we're not able to see, but

 4     the incompleteness really should go to weight.  Recognise counsel's

 5     dilemma if that's all he's got, but we're putting in just a lot of

 6     incomplete documents now, and it's worth noting, I think.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  We did, Mr. Stringer.  We did note that.

 8             The document is admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D152, Your Honours.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D1784, tab 961.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] This is also an indictment for grave bodily

12     injury that resulted eventually in death, and it happened in Kopacevo.

13     Where is this place and what was its ethnic composition in 1992?

14        A.   Kopacevo is in Baranja.  The most famous nature park in that part

15     of Europe takes its name from Kopacevo.  It was called Kopacki Rit.

16     Before the war it was 100 per cent Hungarian.  And I believe after the

17     war, it still had a large percentage of Hungarians, but I can't be

18     100 per cent sure now.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Same comment as before, Mr. President.  Again,

21     these came -- by the way, and I won't say anything more after this.  But

22     the Chamber has found that the Defence was not diligent in disclosing all

23     this to the Prosecution when they received all of these documents last

24     January or February.  They didn't disclose them until much later.  They

25     were just added to the 65 ter list in the Court's ruling yesterday, and


Page 9918

 1     even then we didn't know that, in fact, we had a number of incomplete

 2     documents, something that could perhaps have been looked into had they

 3     been disclosed in a timely way, and now we're just dropping a bunch of

 4     documents into evidence, which absolutely appear to be relevant, but it's

 5     unfair what's happening here.  They're coming into evidence.  The

 6     Prosecution has had no opportunity whatsoever to look into the

 7     incompleteness which we've raised.  I wouldn't even have noticed this if

 8     my colleague, Ms. Clanton, hadn't pointed this out to me a few minutes

 9     ago with one of the earlier ones.  The Defence didn't tell us about this.

10     So it's really unfair to us.  And I recognise the Chamber's willingness

11     to admit them, but, again, it's just what happens when a party is

12     forgiven from its lack of due diligence and sitting on documents for

13     months that could and should have been disclosed much earlier.  They

14     could have sorted this out before today.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, is this one --

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we --

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Just one moment.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One question:  Is this one incomplete as well?

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think it is.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Just to point out something that Mr. Stringer

23     said.  I choose the documents to present today on the basis of the

24     response of the Prosecution where they did not object to some documents

25     from our list, and I did not put any of documents where they objected


Page 9919

 1     on -- on the Rule 65 ter list.  So I suppose they were familiar with the

 2     content of this document when they did not object.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, we had a quick opportunity to look at them.

 5     The Chamber asked us to look specifically at the 45 or 46 out of the much

 6     larger number that the Defence wanted added at the very end, so we didn't

 7     object, but the fact is we hadn't caught this at the time.  We were asked

 8     to look at them quickly, to enable the Defence to make their selection

 9     for direct.  We did our best to accommodate the Defence, and apologies to

10     counsel for having overlooked that they are incomplete.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.  We noted this

13     discussion between parties, and you may go -- move on.

14             This document is admitted and marked.  Sorry.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D153, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1788.  It is tab 963.

18             [Interpretation] Could we see page 2 of the original.  I believe

19     we need also the next page in English.

20        Q.   We see that three persons are indicted here for crimes in

21     Kopacevo.  The charges are widely varied.  There are robberies, murders,

22     et cetera.

23             You told us in Darda there was a police station.  Would you tell

24     us who identified these crimes, who submitted reports to the prosecutor's

25     office, and on what basis were the perpetrators prosecuted?


Page 9920

 1        A.   I believe it was done by the police of Serbian Krajina.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tendered this document, Your Honours.

 3                           [Defence counsel confer]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D154, Your Honours.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1803.  It is tab 969.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry for the interruption.  I'm looking at

 8     line 23.  In the transcript it say this was marked as Exhibit 154.  I

 9     think it was supposed to be 164.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think it is correct.

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. -- Mr. Stringer, the Registrar is pretty sure

13     that it is 154.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Sorry, my mistake.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is again one indictment.

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Sorry.  Again, we see an indictment from

18     May 1992 for a crime in Darda, the crime of murder, and there are three

19     persons indicted.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We can turn the page.

21        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, please tell me, as we have heard a lot about various

22     criminal acts which took place precisely in Baranja during the

23     proceedings, did you know that proceedings were ongoing, that the

24     perpetrators were prosecuted when they could be found?  Did you have

25     information from 1992, say, to the end of your term in office, in a


Page 9921

 1     continuous manner?

 2        A.   Yes, I had such information and it was received continuously

 3     during my term in office, and I had this information even when I was no

 4     longer president.  There was still this tendency to inform me.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I see that my time is running away,

 6     so I have a pretty long list of similar documents.  Day before yesterday,

 7     we provided the Prosecution with the list of these documents in -- in our

 8     intent -- in -- with intention to save the Court's time and just to put

 9     it -- this list for tendering into evidence, but they did not -- did not

10     accept it.

11                           [Defence counsel confer]

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  This list contains the comments of Mr. Hadzic

13     about these particular documents, and in -- in these circumstances, I

14     have just to go document for document on that basis.  So it -- it may --

15     may require more time than I expected.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  More time, Mr. Zivanovic?

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Actually, I have -- actually, I have 15 more

18     documents similar to this to tender into evidence, and ...

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             I would tendered this document, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D155.  And this was document 1D1803,

25     Your Honours.


Page 9922

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see -- may we see 1D0 -- 1805, tab 971.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.  Sorry for the interruption.

 6     Please continue.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I will try to be as brief as possible.

 9             This is also one of those documents from Darda.  You had a chance

10     to see it.  Please tell me whether this corresponds to the information

11     you had about the prosecutions that were conducted against perpetrators

12     of crimes against the non-Serbs.

13        A.   The perpetrators were Serbs, and the injured party was a Croatian

14     lady, and that corresponds to the information I had.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D156, Your Honours.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1808, tab 972.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] This is also an indictment for a crime which

20     took place in Sremski Cakovci.  Could you please tell us where this place

21     is located and what its population was?

22        A.   Sremski Cakovci was in Vukovar municipality, eastern part of the

23     municipality, surrounded by Miklusevci, Tompojevci.  Cakovci was an

24     ethnically mixed place.  They were Croats, Hungarians and Serbs.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.


Page 9923

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D157, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1822.  It is tab 973.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] A number of persons have been indicted here for

 6     crimes which took place in several villages.

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the next

 8     page, both of the original and the English translation.

 9        Q.   This has to do with crimes committed in a number of victims.  I

10     don't think we've heard this before.  These are Gajic, Draz, Podolje.

11     Those are the villages.  Can you tell us where the villages are located

12     and who lived in them?

13        A.   Draz, as I know, is in Baranja populated mostly by Hungarians,

14     perhaps some Croats too.

15             As for the other two, Gajic and Podolje, they are hamlets.  They

16     are also in Baranja, and I don't know what the ethnic composition of

17     their population was.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D158.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1823, tab 974.

23        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an indictment against several people for

24     crimes --

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the next


Page 9924

 1     page, both in the original and in the English translation.

 2        Q.   As many as nine persons --

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] And one more page forward,

 4     please.

 5        Q.   They are indicted for a number of crimes committed in the

 6     territory of Ilok in 1993.

 7             Could you tell us what was the situation like in Ilok in 1993 in

 8     terms of the ethnic composition of the population.

 9        A.   Well, as we have already discussed, at the time Ilok had the

10     majority Serbian population at the time.  But there were some Croats,

11     too.  And I see that the first injured party was a Slovakian by ethnicity

12     and the other injured parties were Croats.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D159, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D1834, tab 975.

18        Q.   [Interpretation] This is an indictment for a triple murder in

19     Vukovar in 1993.  Could you please tell us what the ethnic composition of

20     the population in Vukovar was at the time.

21        A.   At the time, Vukovar had a Serb majority.

22        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   According to your knowledge, were any investigations conducted in


Page 9925

 1     these areas, in Ilok and in Vukovar, while you were the president of the

 2     republic?

 3        A.   From what I know, investigations were conducted.  I have no

 4     information that anyone obstructed any investigation in any way

 5     whatsoever.  When I say "not anyone," I mean anyone from the authorities.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D160.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we, please, 1932.  It's tab 981.

11        Q.   [Interpretation] This is also an indictment against three

12     persons.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If we can move to the second page

14     of the original, please.

15        Q.   Indicted for murder of several persons in Petlovac.  Can you tell

16     us where this place was and what was its ethnic composition?

17        A.   Petlovac is in Baranja.  Before the war, I think it had a

18     Croatian majority, and after the war I don't know.  I didn't meddle in

19     this, and I wasn't interested in this, where the Serbs or the Croats were

20     the majority.  It was all the same to me.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

22             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, on this one, although it appears

23     the crime occurred in 1992, the indictment is dated March of 1996.  So it

24     doesn't really tell us anything about when the intervening investigation

25     occurred, whether that was during 1993 or whether it was after the period


Page 9926

 1     that Mr. Hadzic was president.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, since the indictment -- the

 3     document is complete, I withdraw the -- the request.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please move on.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2030.  It is tab 1000.

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] This is also about a crime which was committed

 7     in Podolje village.  Can you tell us where this village is?

 8        A.   I think it's in Baranja.  It's a small village, but I think it's

 9     in Baranja, and I don't think it was a Serbian village.

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tendered this document, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D161.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see please 1D2033.  It is tab 1001.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a judgement relating to a crime which

15     was committed in Majkse Medje village.  Can you tell us where this

16     village is located?

17        A.   It was also in Baranja, but I do not know what was its ethnic

18     composition.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Your last intervention.  Lost.  Lost in

23     translation.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.  I would tendered this document,

25     Your Honours.


Page 9927

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D162, Your Honours.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see 1D2034.  It is tab 1002.

 4             May we see next page, please.

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] These crimes were committed in the village of

 6     Ceminac.  Can you tell us where it is located?

 7        A.   Yes, it is in Baranja.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D163, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

12             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2037.  It is tab number

13     1004.

14        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a judgement for attempted murder in the

15     village of Vardarac.  Can you tell us where the village is located?

16        A.   Vardarac is in Baranja, and before the war there was a majority

17     Hungarian population.  I believe this remained to be the case after the

18     war.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Just to note, Mr. President, again, the document

21     is dated May of 1994.  I suppose we can speculate whether the

22     investigation and proceedings occurred during 1993, but the document's

23     not -- incomplete and we don't know whether that's true or not.  So what

24     we do know is that this is falling outside the period that Mr. Hadzic was

25     president.  We don't object but it goes to weight, perhaps.


Page 9928

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May I -- just to respond, in the first

 3     paragraph of this document states that indictment was submitted on

 4     31st of August, 1992.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D164.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2046.  It is tab 1006.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] This crime was committed in Darda in 1993.

10     You've discussed Darda and its ethnic composition at some length.  Is

11     there anything else that you would wish to add regarding this?

12        A.   I can see that the perpetrator was a refugee from Osijek, a Serb.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender this document, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D165.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2054.  It is tab number

18     1008.

19        Q.   [Interpretation] This crime took place in the village of Berak.

20     Can you tell us where it is and what was its ethnic composition.

21        A.   Berak is in the municipality of Vukovar.  It is a village east to

22     Negoslavci.  Before the war, it -- the population was mixed.  There were

23     some 60 per cent of Croats and some 40 per cent of Serbs.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tendered this document, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.


Page 9929

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D166.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2056.  It is tab number

 4     1009. [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This crime took place in Aljmas.  In Aljmaska Planina.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we be shown the next page,

 9     please.

10        Q.   It was in March 1992.  In March 1992 - I stand corrected - the

11     crime took place in Jankovci.

12             During March 1992, what was the situation like in Jankovci and

13     what was the ethnic makeup?

14        A.   I think this is a mistake.  I think this is the second page of a

15     document we've already discussed.  And this document bears the number of

16     2056, pertaining to Aljmas and a rape, the rape of a Hungarian woman.  I

17     think we discussed that.

18        Q.   Yes, I can see the mistake.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic --

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Oh, sorry.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  -- shall we continue with that after the break.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  How many of these documents are still to be

25     presented?


Page 9930

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Six, Your Honours.  And after that, I -- I would

 2     put some questions to Mr. Hadzic for next 15 or 20 minutes.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Court adjourned.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Zivanovic.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             I'd just like to inform the Chamber that on 13th of May, we

10     disclosed the document from the Serbia government describing the

11     incomplete nature of the -- some documents from the judicial archives of

12     SBWS or RSK.  It is on our Rule 65 ter list, this document.  It is under

13     1D - sorry - 3327.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2059.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  That's the document you wanted to show the

17     witness and he said this is not the second page, and so on and so forth?

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  So we're still on -- on that document?

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I see that there is some confusion --

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes --

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- as to previous document.  So I -- I'll not use

23     it with the witness.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thanks.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]


Page 9931

 1        Q.   This concerns a murder which took place in Podogradje.  Please

 2     tell us where it is.

 3        A.   In the municipality of Vinkovci, in the same part of the

 4     municipality where one finds Nijemci.  We discussed it before the break.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  This is document 1D2059.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tendering it, Mr. Zivanovic?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes, I would tender it.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Admitted and marked.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Exhibit D167.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thanks.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2060, tab 1011.

12        Q.   [Interpretation] This document concerns a crime that took place

13     in Sarengrad in 1992.  Can you tell us briefly what was the ethnic makeup

14     of Sarengrad at the time and do remind us of its location, please.

15        A.   Sarengrad was part of the municipality of Vukovar before the war.

16     It is in the eastern part of the municipality towards Serbia, close to

17     Ilok.

18             Before the war, Croats were in the majority.  After the war, some

19     of the Croats remained but many refugees from Western Slavonia arrived,

20     putting the Serb ethnic group in the majority.  There was a Catholic

21     monastery there.

22        Q.   The crime involved -- had something to do with the Red Cross.

23     Did you know that the Red Cross was present in Sarengrad?

24        A.   This is not how I understood it.  I think the Red Cross brought

25     their goods and placed it in the monastery and then they were taken away


Page 9932

 1     by the -- the perpetrator.  I'm not sure how it came about.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender 1D2060 into evidence, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D168.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we, please, 1D2062.  It's tab 1012.

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another judgement for the murder of a

 8     person which took place in 1992 in Marinci.  Where is Marinci and what

 9     was its ethnic makeup?

10        A.   Marinci used to be in the municipality of Vinkovci before the

11     war, next to the Vuka river, between the villages of Nustar and

12     Bogdanovci.  The ethnic makeup was mixed.  There was approximately

13     one-third of Serbs, one-third of Croats, and one-third of Hungarians.

14             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tendered 1D2062 into evidence,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D169.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2074.  It's tab 1013.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

21             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   This is another judgement for the crimes committed in 1993 in

23     Ilok.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Can we go to the next page,

25     please.


Page 9933

 1        Q.   Can you tell us something about the judgement.

 2        A.   I see the perpetrator is Croat and the injured parties are a

 3     married couple of Slovaks and one Croat.

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tendered, Your Honours, 1D2074 into

 5     evidence.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D170.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we see, please, 1D2076, tab 1014.

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] This is another judgement, dismissing the case

10     because one of the accused died during the proceedings.  The crime in

11     question occurred in a place called Korodj.  Where was that place and

12     what was its ethnic composition?

13        A.   Korodj was a Hungarian village before the war.  And I believe

14     before the war, it belonged to Osijek municipality, neighbouring with the

15     village of Tordinci, which belonged to Vinkovci municipality.  But I'm

16     not sure whether it was in Osijek or in Vinkovci municipality because it

17     was on the border.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Your Honours, I would tender 1D2076 into

19     evidence.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D171.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And the last of these documents, 1D2132.  It is

24     tab 1016.

25        Q.   [Interpretation] This is a judgement for a crime that happened in


Page 9934

 1     Popovac.  Where was Popovac and what was its ethnic composition?

 2        A.   I've already explained today that Popovac was in Baranja.  It

 3     concerned another case.

 4        Q.   I apologise.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would tender 1D2132 evidence.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D172, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, tell us what went on after you stopped being

11     president of the Republic of Serbian Krajina after the elections in 1993?

12     What was your involvement after that in the Republic of Serbian Krajina,

13     after the Dayton Accords and later?

14        A.   I remained to live in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.  At

15     first, I was not actively involved in politics, but certain mediators

16     approached me, those that I had been in contact with when I was president

17     of the republic, as well as certain ambassadors who were based in Zagreb,

18     Croatia, so I had certain contacts with them, and in the early days, the

19     police of the Republic of Serbian Krajina made some trouble for me.  Once

20     they took off my licence plates and tried to seize my car, thinking it

21     was a service car, but it was my private car, and, in the end, they

22     didn't take it away.  But something similar happened later when they did

23     seize my car and then returned it a few days later.  I think they didn't

24     like my political involvement and my contacts with members of the

25     international community and especially ambassadors based in Zagreb.  I


Page 9935

 1     remember I talked to the British ambassador in Zagreb, the UK ambassador.

 2     I now forget his name, but it doesn't matter.

 3        Q.   After the Dayton Accords, did you hold any position in the

 4     authorities?

 5        A.   After the Croatian Operation Flash, which was on the 1st or

 6     2nd May, 1995, I was elected chairman of the Crisis Staff for the

 7     reception of refugees.  It was a humanitarian affair, and I gathered on

 8     that Crisis Staff people from businesses, people from various agencies

 9     who could help.  I organised the reception of these people and that body,

10     unlike in 1991 when the first refugees came in, accommodated people in

11     empty villages.  The Croatian houses were already occupied.

12        Q.   What was this Croatian Operation Flash?

13        A.   After the political agreement between part of the leadership of

14     the Republic of Serbian Krajina and the Croatian authorities to open up

15     the motorway, of which I do not know the details because I wasn't

16     directly involved, but I know that some Serbs were against it and that

17     motorway was closed again.  And I heard from the media that some

18     conversation among Croatian ministers and especially the minister of

19     police was secretly recorded, showing that the Croatian authorities were

20     involved in the closing of that motorway.  And then that operation

21     ensued, completely ethnically cleansing our region.  It had already been

22     ethnically cleansed before but this finished it off.  At that time, in

23     the entire Western Slavonia, Croatian authority prevailed completely.

24             I have to add something to be quite fair.  When talking to those

25     refugees and their representatives who were occupying some political


Page 9936

 1     positions or were unit commanders, I learned that the Croatian army had

 2     committed crimes there, but to be fair, when the Croatian police came,

 3     they acted in a fully lawfully manner as if they were our own police, in

 4     the words of those people I talked to.

 5        Q.   Can we clear up one thing.  The transcript says "our region was

 6     completely ethnically cleansed."

 7             Did you say it exactly that way?

 8        A.   No, not exactly.  I said Western Slavonia, the remaining Serb

 9     part, that was in Serb hands because in -- the entire Western Slavonia

10     was populated by Serbs.

11        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, after this, were you elected to some position in the

12     Serbian district, Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem?

13        A.   Yes.  After the signing of the second Erdut Agreement and the

14     Dayton Accords, the situation in Slavonia and Baranja was on the verge of

15     erupting, and people were on the verge of fleeing to Serbia.  My

16     associates and I jointly established the district assembly.  We addressed

17     the people, and that's when I was elected president and Dr. Stanimirovic

18     is the prime minister.  The district government was set up, and together

19     with Mr. Klein, we succeeded in keeping the people there.  And from all

20     the information I have, it was the only successful -- fully successful UN

21     mission in history so far.  Maybe it's not the only one, but it's one of

22     the rare ones, although I would say it was the only one.

23        Q.   Could you just repeat the name of the person who was elected

24     prime minister of the district.

25        A.   Dr. Vojislav Stanimirovic.


Page 9937

 1        Q.   In that period, did you have contacts with foreign diplomates and

 2     international representatives?

 3        A.   Yes.  In that period, I received almost all the ambassadors

 4     accredited to Croatia, all ambassadors of the contact group and other

 5     ambassadors based in Croatia, which meant that the reintegration of

 6     Eastern Slavonia and Baranja into Croatia was completely accepted.

 7        Q.   Do you remember any names?

 8        A.   I do.  The Russian ambassador was called Kerestedzijanec.  I also

 9     received Igor Ivanov who went on to become Russia's foreign minister.  Of

10     course, the US ambassador was Peter Galbraith, and I had met him before.

11     And while I was president of the republic, I also met with

12     Mrs. Madeleine Albright when she came to visit Ovcara, towards the end of

13     1993.  And once, later, when I was no longer president of the republic, I

14     travelled to Geneva where I toured all the embassies of the contact group

15     and presented our plan and our views on the possibilities for peaceful

16     reintegration.

17        Q.   Was this plan that you presented accepted?

18        A.   Yes, it was.  And it was fully implemented.  It was a joint plan

19     because if we had not worked jointly, the people would not have stayed,

20     and it wouldn't have worked.  The plan envisaged that our territory

21     remain part of the Croatia but, to us, it was not one and the same thing,

22     whether the people stay or leave.  The plan was for all the people to

23     stay there, to reintegrate, and for the Croats to come back, and the

24     Croats did come back to all the houses that we have been discussed so far

25     and for which I was charged from Ilok on.  These houses were preserved

 


Page 9938

 1     and the Croats now live in them unlike the houses in Eastern Slavonia

 2     that were Serb houses where everything was razed to the ground and

 3     planted with grass.  Some houses were destroyed by bombing during the war

 4     but those house, those Croat houses that were preserved, still stand.

 5     That's the huge difference.

 6        Q.   Did you have occasion to meet Mr. Stoltenberg?

 7        A.   Yes, I had that privilege and honour to meet him while I was

 8     president of the republic, but Mr. Stoltenberg was active later, when he

 9     was -- when I was no longer on that position, and he came to have lunch

10     with us in our local tavern at his own wish.  He had lunch together with

11     me and my wife, and he always spoke of it as a fond memory.

12        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I will now move to my last subject.

13             After all these events, were you invited or summoned to testify

14     anywhere about these events; and, if so, where?

15        A.   I gave a statement in Novi Sad in a Belgrade case concerning

16     Ovcara.  I gave a statement before Judge Alimpic [phoen], and I was

17     supposed to be called as a witness.  And I gave a statement also to OTP

18     investigators in March 2002, I believe, as a suspect.

19        Q.   I know you testified also in the Dokmanovic case.

20        A.   Yes.  That was before the things I already mentioned.  I believe

21     it was in 1998.  I testified before this Court in the Dokmanovic case.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  May we move into private session, please.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)


Page 9939

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 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 9939-9940 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 


Page 9941

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. ZIVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, thank you.  I have no further questions.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, if I could just have a minute to

21     arrange myself here.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Of course.

23             MR. STRINGER:  Okay.  I believe I'm ready now, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm not yet, Mr. Stringer.  Just a moment,

25     please.

 


Page 9942

 1             Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer:

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.

 4        A.   [In English] Good morning.

 5        Q.   You know that I will be asking you a few questions over the

 6     coming weeks.

 7             Mr. Hadzic, I'd actually like to take you right back to something

 8     you just said at the conclusion of your direct examination.  Looking at

 9     line 1 of page 34 from today's transcript, you said:

10             "After the signing of the second Erdut Agreement and the

11     Dayton Accords, the situation in Slavonia and Baranja was on the verge of

12     erupting and people were on the verge of flee to go Serbia.  My

13     associates and I jointly established the district assembly.  We addressed

14     the people.  I was elected president."

15             You mentioned someone who was elected the prime minister.  You

16     said:

17             "The district government was set up, and together with Mr. Klein,

18     we succeeded in keeping the people there."

19             The fact is, Mr. Hadzic, that the peaceful reintegration of the

20     SBWS, the Eastern Slavonia region that we've heard about throughout the

21     trial, that, in fact, could have been achieved for Western Slavonia and

22     the Knin Krajina as well, if you, as the leader of the Serb people in

23     Croatia, the political leader, had advocated something other than

24     separation of the people and in order to achieve a Serbian state on the

25     territory of Croatia.  Isn't that true?  A peaceful reintegration could


Page 9943

 1     have been achieved at any point along the way throughout your tenure as

 2     the leader, if you had wanted that to happen.  It's just that you didn't

 3     want it to happen.  You wanted instead the establishment of Serb

 4     territories dominated by Serb people to the detriment -- which depended

 5     on the expulsion of non-Serbs from those areas.

 6             Isn't that true?

 7        A.   [Interpretation] Of course it's not true.  Do you really think

 8     that it depended on me?  Which is what you just said, that I could have

 9     decided that this would happen or not.

10        Q.   In late 1995 at the time of Dayton and the second Erdut agreement

11     the handwriting was already on the wall.  Flash had occurred.  Storm had

12     occurred a few months later in August of 1995, and it was clear that the

13     objective of establishing a Serb entity on this Croatian territory was

14     not going to be achieved.  So, in fact, this peaceful reintegration that

15     you embraced in late 1995 was only as the result of the failure of your

16     objective and your legacy in Western Slavonia and in Knin.

17             Isn't that also true?

18        A.   Well, likewise I will say, of course, it is not true.  My

19     objectives were not as you just outlined them.  My objective was that the

20     Serbian people and everyone who was living together with it would have

21     their rights and live peacefully, and the consequences that happened at

22     the beginning of the war and everything else did not depend on me, nor

23     on, I'm sure, the majority of the people who lived there.

24        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I'd like to take you back to your testimony.  This is

25     from the 9th of July, transcript page 9598, when you were asked to


Page 9944

 1     describe your relationship with Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.

 2             And you said that:

 3             "It would be hard for me to explain this concept of relationship

 4     here.  There was no relationship.  I only saw him when he wanted that to

 5     happen."

 6             Do you recall that evidence?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   And at various other parts of your testimony, Mr. Hadzic, you've

 9     suggested - I think it's not disputed - that you considered him to be

10     quite a dangerous person.

11        A.   Well, I consider him a dangerous person to this day.  Everyone

12     knows that.

13        Q.   You couldn't even tell him that you were a fan of the Partizan

14     football team.

15        A.   Yes, I said that by way of illustration, an example.  Because I

16     didn't want to have any discussions with him that would be initiated by

17     me.

18        Q.   And you also testified - this is at 9599 - that you refused his

19     offer to provide security for you.

20             Do you recall that evidence?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you mentioned a couple of other gentlemen, Mr. Mudrunic and

23     Mr. Japundzic, who, in fact, as you say, provided your security during

24     1991?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 9945

 1        Q.   The fact is, Mr. Hadzic, that Arkan, in fact, did provide

 2     security for you on numerous occasions, not only throughout 1991 but also

 3     1992 and 1993.  Isn't that true?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   And it's also true, isn't it, that apart from security you

 6     associated yourself with him frequently and you did this because it

 7     enhanced your own powers and enabled you to intimidate others and to get

 8     your way by associating yourself with Zeljko Raznjatovic.  And that's

 9     why, in fact, you had a close relationship with him.  Isn't that also

10     true?

11        A.   That's not true.  I never linked myself with his name.  I didn't

12     associate myself with him, at least I don't remember.

13        Q.   Would you agree with me that Zeljko Raznjatovic advocated the

14     separation of Serbs and Croats in SBWS during 1991 and that he worked to

15     achieve that goal?

16        A.   Well, I didn't have any political discussions with him.  He

17     fought, as he said, as a Serbian volunteer.  But I never discussed this

18     topic with him at all.

19        Q.   You told us the story about him turning over the caldron of the

20     people who were making rakija.  Did you never hear of any crimes that he

21     committed against civilian, against non-Serb civilians throughout the

22     SBWS?

23        A.   Not at the time.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have 65 ter 6508.

25        Q.   Can you see this photograph in -- in front of you on the screen,


Page 9946

 1     Mr. Hadzic?

 2        A.   Yes, I see it.

 3        Q.   That's you and Arkan; correct?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Where's this photograph taken?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I don't remember.

 7        Q.   Isn't it taken at the training centre in Erdut?

 8        A.   I said I didn't know, but --- and that's not Arkan with me.

 9        Q.   Who do you say that is?

10        A.   I think it's Dr. Sava Stupar.

11        Q.   Do you see the photograph in the background behind you?

12        A.   I do.

13        Q.   It's on the wall.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have exhibit 65 ter 6513, please.

15        Q.   Have you ever seen this photograph before, Mr. Hadzic?

16        A.   I may have, but I don't remember.

17        Q.   Well, isn't it the photograph that's hanging on the wall behind

18     you in the photograph we just looked at previously, 6508?

19             Do we need to go back to 6508?

20        A.   No, there's no need.  It's possible that this is so.  I don't

21     deny it.

22        Q.   And you have no recollection of the location in which this

23     photograph 6508 was taken?

24        A.   No, I don't remember.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have P194.140, please.


Page 9947

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, you've testified about this document.  You've

 2     testified that the signature attributed to you on this is false or that

 3     your name was forged on this document, and we'll talk about that more

 4     later.

 5             But setting aside the document, would you at least agree with me

 6     that, in fact, Arkan and his Serbian Volunteer Guard was based at the

 7     training centre in Erdut during 1991, 1992, and 1993?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And this is the same compound or facility in which your offices

10     and the offices of your SBWS government were located during 1991;

11     correct?

12        A.   No.  It wasn't the same facility.

13        Q.   How far away was your office from the training centre?

14        A.   Well, around 150 metres along the road.  And perhaps 100 metres

15     as the crow flies.

16        Q.   And as a result of the close proximity, you were in a position to

17     see or encounter Arkan frequently during 1991 as well as 1992 and 1993

18     when you were both present there; isn't that true?

19        A.   I wasn't there often in 1992 and 1993, and I'm not sure if he

20     was.  And I wasn't there frequently in 1991 either because I would come

21     to the government offices once a week, on average.  Perhaps sometimes a

22     bit longer, but one or two days a week.

23        Q.   You don't deny that Arkan was the commander of the training

24     centre; correct?

25        A.   I neither deny it nor confirm it.  It had nothing to do with me.


Page 9948

 1     But he was there.  He was present.  I know that.

 2        Q.   You're saying you don't know whether he was the commander of the

 3     training centre or not?

 4        A.   I won't say that I don't know.  I don't know what exact

 5     appointment he had.

 6        Q.   If not him, then who, in your view, was the commander of the

 7     training centre in Erdut, say, during 1991, the period beginning in

 8     August or September?

 9        A.   Badza was the main man there first.  Radovan Stojicic, Badza.

10        Q.   And after he left?

11        A.   Arkan stayed on.  Arkan remained there after he had left.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have P2029, please.  This is a video.

13     The booths might need a couple of minutes to locate the transcript.

14     2029.

15             I see the transcript up on the screen.  Can we play the video.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can I ask the booth whether they are ready.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, we are ready, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's play the video then.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] General Mladen Bratic, commander of

21     the Novi Sad Corps, was buried today with highest military honours in the

22     Alley of Meritorious Citizens, at the new cemetery in Belgrade.

23     General Bratic was killed in the first combat lines close to Borovo Selo.

24     On behalf of his native city of Nevesinje, Momcilo Golijanin bade

25     farewell to him and said that when he placed himself at the front of the


Page 9949

 1     unit under his command, Bratic showed an example and carried out a

 2     honourable duty to his fatherland and his people."

 3             MR. STRINGER: [Microphone not activated]

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Microphone, please.

 5             Mr. STRINGER:

 6        Q.   Did you accompany Arkan or did he accompany you to the Bratic

 7     funeral in Belgrade in October of 1991?

 8        A.   Arkan went on his own, and I went with my drivers and

 9     Savo Stupar.

10        Q.   So it's just a coincidence that he's standing next to you there

11     at the funeral?

12        A.   Well, everyone else is standing there too.

13        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you recall being present in Belgrade in the fall

14     of 1991 with the Serbian minister of defence, Mr. Simovic, and another

15     gentleman known to you as Kum?

16        A.   I remember.

17        Q.   In your suspect interview, you told Mr. Dzuro about that

18     encounter; do you recall that?

19        A.   I recall that.

20        Q.   Arkan was also present at that meeting with General Simovic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Do you recall when that was?

23        A.   In the fall of 1991, but I don't know when precisely.

24        Q.   Do you recall that at that meeting the topic of creating a

25     Serbian army from the JNA was discussed?


Page 9950

 1        A.   Your Honours, I was invited to the meeting without knowing who

 2     would attend it or what would be discussed.  At such a serious point in

 3     time discussing an initiative with the complete lunatic who put it forth

 4     would have been not serious of me to do.  That initiative was not even

 5     discussed at the time, let alone at a later point.  The moment I realised

 6     what was being discussed, I no longer took part in any discussions.

 7        Q.   And just so we're clear, at this meeting in Belgrade at the

 8     Ministry of Defence in the fall of 1991, you're present with Arkan,

 9     General Simovic, and this other gentleman named Kum.  And regardless of

10     your level of participation, you do agree with me, sir, that someone in

11     the meeting was advocating the establishment of a Serbian army?

12        A.   It was broached as a topic, but I don't think anyone was

13     advocating it, per se.  It was just discussed as a possibility --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

15     repeat the last sentence.  We didn't hear it.

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, the interpreters are asking that you repeat the last

18     sentence of your answer just now.

19        A.   I said that this Kum, as you refer to him, advocated it.  I don't

20     even know who he was.

21        Q.   And it was, again, just a coincidence that you found yourself

22     there together with Zeljko Raznjatovic?

23        A.   You said that.  I arrived there because I was personally invited

24     to do so, without knowing who would be in attendance.  Now, whether it

25     was a coincidence or not is up to an individual to conclude.


Page 9951

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have 65 ter 04974 -- excuse me.  4974.04.

 2     It's part of the transcript of the suspect interview that we've just been

 3     talking about.  And what I -- what I'd like to look at is pages 23 and 24

 4     of the English; 18 and 19 -- 18 and 19 of the -- the B/C/S.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I want to direct your attention --

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Well, let's move to the next page of the English,

 7     please, the bottom third of the English.

 8        Q.   This is what you told Mr. Dzuro:

 9             "At the time they proposed that a Serb army be made, that this is

10     senseless, that the JNA was a Communist army, that we would never be able

11     to win the war against the Croats without a Serbian army.  They were

12     telling all this to Simovic who was also at the time taken aback by all

13     these stupidities."

14             Mr. Hadzic, can we agree then that at this meeting that it was

15     Arkan and this gentleman, Kum, who were advocating the creation of a

16     Serbian army from the JNA?

17        A.   That is what I said, and that is how I recall it.  But you should

18     have read out the whole answer, till the end, in terms of what I said

19     then.

20        Q.   I will do that.

21             You said to Mr. Dzuro:

22             "As soon as I saw what this was all about, I did not talk

23     anymore, I did not speak, and I did not take part in the work of the

24     meeting."

25             Is that the part you wanted me to read?


Page 9952

 1        A.   Yes.  And I mentioned the same thing in providing an answer to

 2     you less than five minutes ago.

 3        Q.   Do you recall the evidence of another former JNA general,

 4     Milosav Djordjevic, who gave evidence in this case about his meeting with

 5     you in Belgrade at the MOD?

 6        A.   I do recall that he testified, although I could not recall the

 7     event he discussed.  I do remember, though, that he mentioned it.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have P02300, please.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, as I did with Mr. Zivanovic, I will

10     harass you asking for tab numbers.

11             MR. STRINGER:  I've got them right in front of me, Your Honour.

12     I just haven't been saying them.

13             This is tab 1548.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

15             MR. STRINGER:  If we could go to paragraph 71, please.

16        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is from the 92 ter statement, the admitted

17     evidence of General Djordjevic who here describes an occasion in

18     November 1991 when you, as president of the government of the SAO SBWS,

19     came to Belgrade to meet Minister Simovic.  It continues on.  Djordjevic

20     met with you instead.  He says you were accompanied by

21     Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and that you were requesting weapons.

22             Do you recall that meeting with General Djordjevic?

23        A.   I do not recall that meeting.  I am certain, though, that Arkan

24     did not accompany me.  He could only have arrived after me.

25        Q.   Well, that's interesting, Mr. Hadzic, because this is not


Page 9953

 1     something that you or your counsel raised or challenged with

 2     General Djordjevic when he gave his evidence.  You do know that?

 3        A.   I do not understand your question.  My consultation with counsel

 4     was not so detailed as to discuss with him which item needs disputing and

 5     which one does not.

 6        Q.   So are you now disputing this?  Are you saying that

 7     General Djordjevic made this up?

 8        A.   No.  I have no doubt that he had any reason to lie, but I don't

 9     think I can say with any certainty whether Arkan arrived after me or did

10     not.

11        Q.   Well, isn't it true that you were involved with Arkan in

12     attempting to procure weapons for armed forces in SBWS on your trips to

13     Belgrade during this period?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  In the last answer,

15     the witness said that Djordjevic had no way of knowing whether Arkan

16     arrived with him or after him.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all of this, the only thing that

18     is true is that I was trying to obtain those shells, but it had nothing

19     to do with Arkan.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 1556 which is P02333.

21        Q.   And while that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, I'll ask if you recall

22     the testimony of the journalist, the Dutch journalist, Mr. van Lynden,

23     who told the Chamber about meeting you and Arkan at a patisserie in the

24     middle of the night in Belgrade.  Do you recall that testimony?

25        A.   I do.  And that is correct.


Page 9954

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have P1008, please.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  Let me skip that one for the moment,

 4     Mr.  President.  Is this the time for the break?

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Indeed, it is, Mr. Stringer.  Thank you.

 6             Court adjourned.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 12.44 p.m.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

10             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11             The next exhibit is tab 1041, which is a video at P1008.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Are the interpreters ready?

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, we are, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Let's start then.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16                           [No interpretation]

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we have this.  This is in evidence.  It's video

19     footage of a press conference given at the Erdut -- what we call the

20     castle which is the building where your government had its offices in the

21     conference room.  Does that appear to be the location?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Do Your Honours wish us to

24     read out the transcript?  As the console did not operate at the time.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I -- I was -- I was -- I would say I was a little


Page 9955

 1     bit confused and I didn't hear any translation, and then I thought it

 2     wasn't necessary.

 3             Mr. Stringer.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Well, probably the translation is not the most

 5     important part.  But if it would assist, we could run -- it's a short

 6     clip.  We could run it again, Your Honour, and hear the translation that

 7     accompanies it.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Thanks.  Let's do that.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Borders have already been moved,

11     external and internal ones.  Both Krajinas spoke out and you know our big

12     national assembly's decision disrupted its legal continuity with the

13     Republic of Croatia.  So, the borders are as they are, and I am in favour

14     of not changing them.  Leave them as they are."

15             MR. STRINGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, what's indicated on this footage is that

17     Mr. Raznjatovic is also present in the conference room during this.  Did

18     he frequently or regularly attend press conferences in the castle

19     facility in Erdut?

20        A.   As far as I recall, it was very seldom.

21        Q.   Did you recognise the man who was seated next to you in the

22     footage?  We could show it again if you'd -- if you'd like.  The man who

23     was seated next to you at the table.

24        A.   To my left, it was Rade Leskovac.  I recognised him.

25        Q.   Thank you.


Page 9956

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Could we now have, please, tab 1133, which is

 2     P00250.245.

 3        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you've testified about this incident in your direct

 4     examination regarding the events of the 21st of September, 1991, where,

 5     again, we find that you and Mr. Raznjatovic are present at the same place

 6     at the same time.  Here, each of you taking prisoners from the police

 7     station in Dalj.

 8             Do you recall that incident?

 9        A.   I recall the events of 21 December -- September.

10        Q.   And I believe your evidence was that you came there on your own

11     and that Mr. Raznjatovic, Arkan, showed up after your arrival.

12             Is that your evidence?

13        A.   That is correct.  He arrived perhaps ten minutes after me.

14        Q.   And was this just another coincidence, then, that you both

15     happened to find yourselves there at the Dalj police station at the same

16     time, or was there some reason why both of you were there?

17        A.   I wouldn't agree with your words when you say "just another

18     coincidence."  It indeed was a coincidence.  I came for well-known

19     reasons which I have explained here, and I don't know why Arkan came.

20        Q.   You do know what is the fate of the prisoners that he removed

21     from the police station on that day, don't you?

22        A.   I learned about that later.

23        Q.   Just earlier today, Mr. Hadzic, minutes ago at page 42, I asked

24     you -- or I suggested that Arkan provided security for you on numerous

25     occasions throughout 1991, 1992, and 1993, and you said that's not true.


Page 9957

 1             Isn't it true that he provided security for you to get from Erdut

 2     to the Velepromet facility in Vukovar on the 20th of November, 1991?

 3        A.   That is not true.  He did not provide security for my route to

 4     Erdut in 1991, 1992, or 1993.

 5        Q.   Did he provide security --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One moment, Mr. Stringer.  Sorry.

 7             Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  If he could repeat his answer, because I -- I

 9     think that is not accurately transcribed or translated.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, could you please repeat your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for what Mr. Prosecutor said, to

12     the effect that Arkan provided security along the route from Erdut to

13     Velepromet to Vukovar is incorrect.  I came there without Arkan of my own

14     accord.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have 65 ter 02320, which is

16     tab 830.

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is from your testimony under oath as a witness

18     in the Dokmanovic case.  Starting with transcript page 3099 of

19     Dokmanovic.  At the bottom of 3099, we can go there.

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. STRINGER:  This is 65 ter 2320.  Thank you.

22        Q.   The last four lines on this page, Mr. Hadzic, you were asked what

23     was your affiliation with Arkan.  You said nothing special.

24             And then on the next page of that transcript, Your Honour asked:

25             "Isn't it a fact that he accompanied you from Erdut on that day


Page 9958

 1     driving to Velepromet because you expected some difficulties in getting

 2     through to Vukovar?"

 3             And you said:  "We needed that.  It's not that we had to

 4     penetrate through the area, but we didn't want any incidents to occur in

 5     Vukovar because Arkan had sufficient authority in order to prevent this

 6     kind of incident."

 7             Isn't that really how it was, Mr. Hadzic?  Arkan did, in fact,

 8     accompany you from Erdut to Velepromet as security on the

 9     20th of November?

10        A.   That is not correct.  As for what I said in the -- in my

11     testimony in the Dokmanovic case, I don't glean from it that I was

12     clearly and distinctly asked about it.  I thought they were asking about

13     security at Velepromet.  And I don't think I said anything that

14     contravenes what I've said today.  I think I've already explained that

15     during examination-in-chief.  I did make a mistake though.  Although I

16     was under oath, I didn't lie; I simply made a mistake, a technical

17     mistake.  I didn't think much about those details.  And all my life I

18     went to Vukovar via Borovo Naselje.  For 33 years that is how I reached

19     Vukovar.  In a sort of mechanical way, I said I went via Borovo Naselje

20     without thinking, but then when I thought about it again, when I -- here,

21     I saw that I went via Erdut to Backa Palanka to pick up Stupar and then

22     we went back from Serbia via the border crossing at Sotin.  I didn't need

23     Arkan to provide security for me at Velepromet.  I had decided to go

24     there in any case.  All of the other government members, especially

25     Dr. Hadzic, wanted him to do so because they were afraid.  They said it


Page 9959

 1     would be -- it would not be safe to go there without security.

 2             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 1085, which is 65 ter 4974.04.

 3     This is more transcript from Mr. Hadzic's suspect interview.  Looking at

 4     page 51 of this.

 5        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, here, we see in the suspect interview you were asked

 6     by the investigator, Mr. Dzuro:

 7             "Did Arkan and his men provide security for you?"

 8             You said:

 9             "Not specifically -- specifically.  But only in regard to those

10     general assessments when I was in the field.

11             Then he asks you specifically:

12             "After the operations in Vukovar were completed and you went to

13     Vukovar for this government meeting, Arkan went there with you as well.

14     In what [sic] capacity was he there?

15             "Yes, well," you say, "then he went as physical security -- for

16     physical protection.  Because I had serious threats from Vukovar, from

17     Serbs ..."

18             Mr. Dzuro says:

19             "So it is just in one case when he actually did your security, or

20     was it more often?"

21             And your answer is:

22             "It wasn't often but there could have been some other cases.  I

23     don't know."

24             So, Mr. Hadzic, isn't it true that, in fact, Arkan provided

25     security for you on the 20th of November, as well as on other occasions?


Page 9960

 1        A.   Well, this is not connected with what we just discussed, whether

 2     he went with me.  I said he didn't go with me.  In Velepromet, he was

 3     providing security to me and the entire government.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you please look at the tab number again

 7     because you said 1085, and that's obviously not the 65 ter number that's

 8     on the screen.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  We will double-check that, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay --

11             MR. STRINGER:  Apologies.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. STRINGER:

14        Q.   Can we agree that Arkan was present with you at the Velepromet

15     facility on the 20th of November, 1991?

16        A.   Yes, we can agree about that.  I just want to ask the Court,

17     considering that before the break we mentioned the meeting with the

18     journalist, van Lynden, and I didn't finish my answer that I saw him

19     there but nothing else.  I thought we would continue with that.

20        Q.   Your counsel can bring you back to that on his redirect

21     examination.  This is my cross-examination.  I'm going to ask you

22     questions.  I think you were given a full opportunity to provide an

23     answer before we had the break.

24             MR. STRINGER:  And unless the Chamber wants more explanation from

25     you on it, I would prefer, Mr. President, just to proceed.


Page 9961

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.

 2             MR. STRINGER:

 3        Q.   So just to sum this up, Mr. Hadzic, when you testified in

 4     Dokmanovic about Arkan accompanying you, or when you were asked about it

 5     in Dokmanovic, about his accompanying you to Velepromet, the transcript

 6     here is -- is -- doesn't, in your view, reflect what actually occurred.

 7     You made a mistake?

 8        A.   At that time the question was not as precise as the way you put

 9     it now.

10        Q.   Well, let's go back to it.  It seems rather precise to me.

11             MR. STRINGER:  This is 65 ter 02320 which is tab 830, page 3100

12     of the Dokmanovic transcript.

13        Q.   And just for completeness, let's go to the previous page, the

14     bottom.  Page 3099.  This was your cross-examination, Mr. Hadzic.  You

15     were asked:

16             "What was you're affiliation with Arkan?"

17             And you said:

18             "Nothing special.  It was said of him he was brave.  I don't know

19     anything else."

20             And then the next question, which is on the next page, I'd

21     suggest, Mr. Hadzic, is quite precise.

22             "Now isn't it a fact that he had accompanied you from Erdut on

23     that day, driving to Velepromet, because you expected some difficulties

24     in getting through to Vukovar."

25             And your answer is:


Page 9962

 1             "We needed that."

 2             And you go on to explain.  The fact is that's the truth, isn't

 3     it, Mr. Hadzic?  Arkan accompanied you from Erdut down to Velepromet,

 4     stayed with you at Velepromet, and then, in addition, he attended the

 5     meeting that occurred at Velepromet on that day, the 20th.  Isn't that

 6     all how it really turned out, how it happened?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think that this question was already answered.

 8     This particular part of transcript was confronted and shown to the

 9     witness and he give answer.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Well, Mr. President, I think that given the

12     attempt or the -- the response to his -- the comment to his Dokmanovic

13     testimony justifies further examination of this topic and comparing it to

14     his evidence in this trial, which is also under oath.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  You may continue.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, also for the record, tab 1085 is

17     it.  However, the -- the exhibit number is 4974.04.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.  It's okay now.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have P1971, which is tab 996.

22     Actually, apologies.  Before we move on to that, more from Dokmanovic.

23        Q.   In this case, Mr. Hadzic, and I think you've just reaffirmed it a

24     few moments ago, you testified that your counsel asked how did you reach

25     Vukovar on the 20th of November?  And you said that you travelled to


Page 9963

 1     Vukovar via Backa Palanka and Ilok and perhaps Sid and then in through

 2     Sotin.  That's at transcript 9754.  Is that your evidence now?

 3        A.   Yes, that's correct too.

 4        Q.   Because in your Dokmanovic testimony - this again is 65 ter

 5     02320, tab 830 - at page 3094, you said something different.

 6             The bottom of 3094, this is the beginning of your

 7     cross-examination.  You're asked about your arrival at Velepromet on the

 8     20th.  And at the bottom you were asked:

 9             "Where were you before that time on the 20th of November?"

10             This is now on the next page.  You said you were in Erdut.  You

11     were specifically asked:

12             "What route did you take?"

13             You said:

14             "I didn't really think about it, but I think I came via

15     Borovo Naselje to Vukovar.

16             "Q.  Did you go through Dalj and Borovo Selo?"

17             And as you said:

18             "It's only logical, Erdut, Dalj, Borovo Selo, Borovo Naselje,

19     Vukovar."

20             So, according to your testimony in Dokmanovic, which is actually

21     quite a bit closer in time to the events of 20th November, 1991, you

22     remembered it differently.  Why have you changed your evidence?

23        A.   In the Dokmanovic case I also said I thought I had gone that way.

24     But I later remembered because I was entering from the direction of

25     Sotin.  And the first three houses that were razed to the ground that I


Page 9964

 1     saw, among them was the house of a friend of mine, and I was shocked and

 2     that's how I remembered I came from the direction of Sotin.

 3        Q.   You failed to remember that back when you testified in the

 4     Dokmanovic case, however, back in 1998; correct?

 5        A.   You asked me that already.

 6        Q.   You remember it better today than you did back then?

 7        A.   Today I remember it precisely.  Back then, I also said I couldn't

 8     remember well.  If you can see that.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Could we now have P1971, tab 996.  We don't need

10     transcript for this.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. STRINGER:  You can stop there.

13        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, can we agree that that's you and Arkan at the

14     Velepromet facility on the 20th of November, 1991?

15        A.   Yes, we agree.

16        Q.   And he was there providing your security?

17        A.   Not me especially.  He was providing security to everyone.

18        Q.   Could you tell the Chamber, please, the -- about the pins that

19     both of you are wearing on your berets there?

20        A.   Like most residents of the Serbian district at the time, we are

21     wearing this flag, red, white, and blue, without any idealogical

22     insignia.

23        Q.   Did you and Arkan frequently wear what appears to be the same

24     uniform?

25        A.   I'm not sure it's the same uniform, but it's similar.


Page 9965

 1        Q.   Did you frequently wear similar uniforms?

 2        A.   I was wearing what I had:  The one I have here in this picture

 3     and another camouflage uniform.  I don't know what Arkan wore all the

 4     time.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have P00131, tab 1020.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we start again, please.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Can we start again.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The economy of Belgrade and Serbia

11     is prepared to fully support the economy in Slavonia, Baranja, and

12     Western Srem, stated Milorad Unkovic.  While talking to the

13     representatives of the regime's government, Unkovic said, among other

14     things, that it was Belgrade's intention to aid reconstruction of

15     destroyed villages and cities in the Serbian region especially Vukovar in

16     the shortest possible time.  On the occasion of the Belgrade's delegation

17     visit, president of the Serbian region's government, Goran Hadzic, has

18     assessed that this was one of the signs that people had not been left to

19     themselves, to their own devices."

20             MR. STRINGER:

21        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we have this as a meeting that occurred in Erdut with

22     the mayor of Belgrade at the time; is that correct?

23        A.   It's correct.  We saw that we was -- he was at that cabinet

24     session, but I didn't see myself there.

25        Q.   Now, here in this footage that we're seeing, you're speaking to


Page 9966

 1     the press.  Can you tell us who's standing to your right, our left as we

 2     look at it?

 3        A.   Arkan.

 4        Q.   And in what capacity, then, is he standing next to you?  What's

 5     the reason why he's there with you at this press conference in Erdut?

 6        A.   It's difficult for me to answer now, considering that Arkan is

 7     dead, and I don't know.  I'm not sure whether he was standing there

 8     already when I started giving the interview or he came later and stopped

 9     there in order to be in the picture.

10        Q.   So could this be one of those occasions you've described where he

11     was just trying to get close to you or was -- tended to follow you around

12     to get close to you?

13        A.   That's the way it always happened.  This is just one more such

14     situation.

15        Q.   Can you recognise where you're standing when you're giving this

16     interview?

17        A.   I can't recognise it.  I'm not sure it was even in Erdut or that

18     it is related to that event with the mayor of Belgrade, or perhaps it was

19     just reporter's comment with my picture inserted.

20             MR. STRINGER:  Could we replay that and get the translation again

21     or the interpretation of the text?  It might help us refresh the

22     witness's memory.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The economy of Belgrade and Serbia

25     are ready to provide full support for Serbs in Slavonia, Baranja, and


Page 9967

 1     Western Srem said Milorad Unkovic in Erdut today.  While talking to

 2     representatives of this region's government, Unkovic, said, among other

 3     things, that it was Belgrade's intention to aid the reconstruction of

 4     destroyed villages and cities in the Serbian region, especially Vukovar.

 5     In the shortest possible time.  On the occasion of the Belgrade's

 6     delegation visit, the president of the Serbian region's government,

 7     Goran Hadzic, has assessed that this was one of the signs these people

 8     have not been left to their own devices.  Hadzic said he believed that

 9     all Serb lands including Vukovar would shortly be rebuilt and all

10     conditions for normal functioning of important living points all over

11     Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem would be provided in the shortest

12     possible time.  With regard to the most recent 14th cease-fire, Hadzic

13     underlined that the Territorial Defence of the Serbian region would

14     respect it but that he doubted the goodwill and intentions of Ustashas,

15     as he called them, who proved that they had had intentions by attacking

16     the liberated Serbian village of Vera and Bobeta."

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   Having looked at the video now, Mr. Hadzic, can you tell us where

19     this meeting with the mayor of Belgrade occurred?

20        A.   I didn't understand you.  It's not in dispute that it took place

21     on the premises of the government in Erdut, the room where we held press

22     conferences.  And we could see that Dr. Mladen Hadzic, who was vice prime

23     minister, led that press conference and on his right was Mr. Unkovic.

24     What I said was I didn't know where this interview was given.  I just

25     don't recognise that building in the background.  I don't recognise it


Page 9968

 1     from the outside.

 2        Q.   Now, in the interview, you state -- you underline that the

 3     Territorial Defence of the Serbian region would respect the cease-fire

 4     agreement.  What involvement and knowledge did you have in this 14th

 5     cease-fire agreement that enabled you to inform and make a public

 6     statement about it being respected by the Territorial Defence?

 7        A.   I heard from media reports and the journalists knew about that

 8     peace agreement but I'm not sure I even said that.  The journalist added

 9     that comment and said that it was my Territorial Defence.  I might have

10     said perhaps that the Serbian side had never made any provocations and

11     would not make any provocations.  I could not speak on behalf of the

12     Serbian units because I didn't command them.  But at that time an

13     incident took place where some of my friends lost their lives in villages

14     Vera and Bobota.

15        Q.   When was that?

16        A.   In autumn 1991.  It might have been during the winter already.

17        Q.   Did Arkan frequently have access to the government press

18     conference room there in Erdut?  We've seen him there now twice.  Could

19     he just come and go as he pleased?

20        A.   Our press conferences were public and completely open.  And if I

21     remember well, there was no particular procedure one had to undergo in

22     order to come in or come out.  We didn't even check the accreditations of

23     journalists.  And you've asked me before, and I said I don't remember

24     Arkan was there often.  In the footage we saw before, we could see him

25     come in and take a chair next to the door.  He came in after the


Page 9969

 1     beginning of the press conference.

 2        Q.   And based on what we've been looking at, Mr. Hadzic, it appears

 3     that your own security people whom you've named were no impediments to

 4     Arkan actually getting physically close to you, next to you.  So they

 5     accepted him as someone who could accompany you or at least get close to

 6     you?

 7        A.   I occupied a political post in 1991, 1992, 1993, and later 1996

 8     and 1997.  My security detail never stopped anyone from approaching me,

 9     including Arkan.  They didn't make any problems.  They never stopped

10     anyone from approaching me in Erdut, in Belgrade, or anywhere else.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 1675, please, which is

12     65 ter 04835.01.  This is a video.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we have a moment?  They are not in order.

14             MR. STRINGER:

15        Q.   While that's being located --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it.

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   -- Mr. Hadzic, let me first ask:  Do you recall you and Arkan

19     receiving a member of the Australian parliament at the training centre or

20     at the government facilitates in Erdut after the fall of Vukovar?

21        A.   I really don't remember that.  It's possible.

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  One moment, please, before you start the video.

23     I wanted to say something about videos and the trouble interpreters might

24     have.  In the -- in this trial, the existing system requires that

25     parties, A, provide a transcription of videos, and similar long texts


Page 9970

 1     that are prepared in advance; and, B, identify correctly the portions

 2     being shown in court.  I wonder whether it would be a good idea to add to

 3     this general rule that before we start playing videos that need

 4     interpretation, we wait for the booth to indicate that they are ready.

 5     Okay?  Thank you.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  I believe the booth has indicated they are ready

 7     now for this next one.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Member of Parliament of

10     New South Wales in the federal state of Australia, Mr. John Newman,

11     visited East Slavonia and Western Srem today.  As the head of the

12     delegation of the Serbian National Association's Co-ordination Committee

13     for Liaison with the Australian Parliament and ethnic community at the

14     Labor Party's Main Board, he met with Major-General Andrija Biorcevic in

15     Dalj.  This Australian MP, accompanied by the bishop of Slavonia and

16     Baranja, Bishop Lukijan, visited ruined Serbian churches in Vukovar.  In

17     Erdut, the guests were welcomed by the line of honour of the

18     Serbian Volunteer Guard and its commander, Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.  At

19     the end of the visit, the Australian deputy talked with Goran Hadzic,

20     president of the government of the Serbian District of Slavonia, Baranja,

21     and Western Srem.  Mr. Newman stressed he had come to Serbia to get

22     personally acquainted with the political and war events in Croatia where

23     Serbs formed the majority of the population because, as he said, Serbia

24     had a very bad reputation abroad due to the inept propaganda effort which

25     was to be blamed on some political leaders as well.  He named


Page 9971

 1     Vuk Draskovic and said it would be better for him if he would write books

 2     rather than deal in politics."

 3             MR. STRINGER:

 4        Q.   Having seen the video now, Mr. Hadzic, do you recall this visit?

 5        A.   Yes, I remember it.

 6        Q.   And based upon the visit to Vukovar and the destroyed churches,

 7     it would appear to be sometime after the fall of Vukovar.  Do you recall

 8     approximately when?

 9        A.   Judging by what I can see, where I received him, and so on, I

10     think it was at the time when I was already the president of the

11     Republic of Serbian Krajina, that is to say, after February 1992.  But

12     I'm not sure.

13        Q.   In what capacity was Arkan then accompanying you as the president

14     of the RSK in this meeting with this Australian member of parliament?

15        A.   This is a conflation of arguments.  Arkan came with a guest and I

16     understood Arkan as his host.  They were at Arkan's place first and then

17     they came to Erdut.  The ambassador came as a member of a delegation.

18        Q.   Right.  My question was about Zeljko Raznjatovic.  In what

19     capacity was he acting in connection with this visit?

20        A.   I think that I have answered, but let me repeat.  He came

21     together with the ambassador, the Australian ambassador.  Before that,

22     Arkan received him at his centre and then they came to the government

23     building together.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender that exhibit, 4835.01.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.


Page 9972

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3207.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3207.  I apologise.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 440, which is P1836.

 5        Q.   While it's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, this is an exhibit that you

 6     talked about during your direct examination.  This concerns an incident

 7     that occurred at the Vukovar Hospital in the middle of March 1992.

 8             Do you recall your evidence about this?

 9        A.   Yes, I mostly remember.

10        Q.   And you gave a detailed account of what occurred.  My question

11     simply here is:  Whether this is yet another -- well, I'll put it to you.

12     In fact, the role that Arkan played here, on that day, was to provide

13     security for you as the president of the RSK.

14             Isn't that true?

15        A.   No, that's not true.

16        Q.   So then this is another incident when he just showed up without

17     your invitation and again just trying to get close to you, following you

18     around.  Is that how we're to understand it?

19        A.   Yes, it only confirms my assertion.  And that's the truth.

20        Q.   Were you present in Bijeljina in Bosnia-Herzegovina in April of

21     1992, a couple of weeks after this Vukovar incident, with Arkan,

22     Ms. Plavsic, and other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership?

23        A.   Yes.  But I wasn't there with Arkan but with Biljana Plavsic and

24     Fikret Abdic.  And Arkan was there as a member of Biljana Plavsic's

25     delegation.  He had arrived there before me.


Page 9973

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please see P00381, tab 1020.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Isn't that the video-clip we just saw,

 4     Mr. Stringer?

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Forgive me.  It is tab 1021.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  It's a video-clip, so we'll wait to hear from the

 8     interpreters when they are ready.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you for that.

10             MR. STRINGER:  P00381.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  We have found it, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mrs. Plavsic, you are a part of a

15     mixed delegation visiting Bijeljina today to witness the alleged

16     destruction which has been widely reported by the Sarajevo media.  What

17     are your first impressions?

18             "I just passed through the town, not just me but my escort as

19     well, and we tried to see whether we would notice any broken windows or

20     shut windows."

21             MR. STRINGER:

22        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I'm not so interested in the text of what Ms. Plavsic

23     is saying in this video.  Can you see on the screen yourself and

24     Mr. Raznjatovic, Arkan, also in the frame with Ms. Plavsic here?

25        A.   As everyone can see it; I see it too.


Page 9974

 1        Q.   And you said just a moment ago that he was there, Arkan was there

 2     as a member of her delegation.  Could you tell the Chamber, please, in

 3     what capacity was he a member of "her delegation," if you know?

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  May I see the reference where the Arkan

 5     was named as a member of delegation.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I'm just looking at Mr. Hadzic's

 7     answer at page 69, lines 7 and 8.

 8             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  It is not stated that he was member of

 9     delegation, that Arkan was a member of any delegation.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Line 7, Mr. Stringer -- sorry, Mr. Zivanovic?

11             MR. STRINGER:  I'm looking at ...

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic, line 7:

13             "And Arkan was there as a member of Biljana Plavsic's

14     delegation ..."

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry.  Biljana Plavsic's delegation.

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Yes.  But not as the member of delegation who

18     visited Ms. -- Mrs. Plavsic.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I can try to clarify with

20     Mr. Hadzic.

21        Q.   And the question -- well, in what capacity was Zeljko Raznjatovic

22     then present at this meeting?

23        A.   I don't know in what capacity he was present, but he was there

24     together with Biljana Plavsic.

25        Q.   He was there because he was a key figure in the work being done


Page 9975

 1     by yourself in Croatia and the other Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina on

 2     establishing and holding the Serb Autonomous Regions.  Isn't that why

 3     he's there?

 4        A.   Well, I have said that I don't know why he was there.  I know why

 5     I was there.

 6        Q.   And you were there in order to discuss with your Bosnian Serb

 7     counterparts how to go about linking up the autonomous regions in Croatia

 8     with the Republika Srpska area taken by Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is

 9     that correct?

10        A.   Well, that's not correct.  And it's a very improper conclusion.

11     I would understand if you had made such a conclusion had Mr. Fikret Abdic

12     not also been present there because he was a representative of the Muslim

13     people, and I never attended any meeting that was not also attended by

14     Mr. Fikret Abdic, a kind of Serbian meeting.  I had come there in order

15     to meet with Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic.

16        Q.   But it was one of your objectives and one of the objectives of

17     those in the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs to actually unify the

18     Serb-held territories in both countries, Bosnia and Croatia; isn't that

19     true?

20        A.   Well, in your conclusion, you have gone very far right now.  My

21     goal was to protect the people, to prevent any deaths, and to remain in

22     Yugoslavia.  And what were other goals of other people, this I wouldn't

23     know.

24        Q.   So if that was a goal of other people, it's not one that you

25     shared?


Page 9976

 1        A.   I'm not sure what your question is.

 2        Q.   If others had as a goal the unification of all the Serb-held

 3     territories both in Bosnia and Croatia, is that a goal that you yourself

 4     did not share?

 5        A.   Well, I have said, first of all, what my goal was.  It was that I

 6     and everyone else who so wished would remain in Yugoslavia.  I think that

 7     at the time that was also Mr. Fikret Abdic's goal.

 8        Q.   I'm asking you whether you supported the idea of unifying

 9     Serb-held territories in Croatia and Bosnia.  Did you support that or

10     not?

11        A.   Well, at the time when this event took place, I had no

12     information about this, nor did I talk about it at the time.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Hadzic.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Could we now have tab 1681, which is

15     65 ter 4843.1.  I believe, actually, it's 1671, Mr. President.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  We have it, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Now is not the time for quarrels

21     and divisions but instead for unity, harmony, and for the Serb people

22     living together in one state.  That was just one of a series of similar

23     messages from today's gathering at the 17th of August training centre of

24     the Krajina MUP in Golubic near Knin held on the occasion of the start of

25     training of the first class of policemen of the Krajina MUP.  Along with


Page 9977

 1     a great number of citizens, this activity also attended by members of the

 2     Yugoslav Presidency, Sejdo Bajramovic and Jugoslav Kostic, then by

 3     Goran Hadzic, Mile Paspalj and Zdravko Zecevic with members of the

 4     Krajina government, and by other dignitaries among whom were also

 5     representatives of the Yugoslav People's Army."

 6             MR. STRINGER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you recall what this event is that we're seeing in

 8     the video?

 9        A.   I think that it was said it was in a village next to Knin.

10        Q.   Isn't this an event taking place at the Golubic training centre

11     in Knin?

12        A.   Well, yes, Golubic near Knin.  I said a village.  Yes, its name

13     is Golubic.

14        Q.   Do you recall this event?  There is quite a number of interesting

15     people there.

16        A.   I remember it.  I have seen this video among the Prosecution

17     evidence which you presented with your witnesses.

18        Q.   That's correct.  There's a slightly different version that's

19     already in evidence.  The reason why we -- we've pulled this one,

20     Mr. Hadzic, is to ask you about, if you can tell us who is seated behind

21     you here in this image.

22        A.   I don't recognise anyone behind me except for the person standing

23     behind me, and that was my escort, Ljubomir Mudrinic.  And I don't

24     recognise anyone else.

25        Q.   Well, seated to his right, isn't that Arkan?


Page 9978

 1        A.   I'm not certain that that's Arkan.  But I don't know.

 2        Q.   You don't disagree that Arkan was present at this event, do you?

 3        A.   I didn't especially notice him, but I don't exclude the

 4     possibility.  He may or may not have been there.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tender this 4843.1.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Which is tab 1681, not 16 --

 7             MR. STRINGER:  1671.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  No, 1681; right?

 9             MR. STRINGER:  1681.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.  Admitted and marked.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3208, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 922, please, which is P3115.

14        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you testified --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer --

16             MR. STRINGER:  Apologies.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Perhaps you're getting scared to give

18     tab numbers, but I'm still asking for them.

19             MR. STRINGER: [Microphone not activated] 922.

20             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

21             MR. STRINGER:

22        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, you testified about this document on your direct

23     examination.  This is one of the UNPROFOR documents, and it reports the

24     incident that occurred on the Batina bridge in October of 1993.

25             You gave a full account of your recollection of this event.  I


Page 9979

 1     just wanted to confirm, then, that this is another coincidence when -- or

 2     another situation in which Arkan was following you, or trying to be with

 3     you, on this occasion as you travelled to Beli Manastir for the RSK

 4     Assembly.  Is that -- is that how we are to understand what happened

 5     here?

 6        A.   I don't understand what happened here in this context and in

 7     connection with me.  It has nothing to do with me.  It can be interpreted

 8     as anyone wants.  But I don't see myself there.  It happened after my

 9     passage, at least 10 or 11 minutes as is written here.

10        Q.   I guess my point is this is like the incident in Dalj at the

11     police station, and like the incident at the Vukovar in the hospital,

12     where, just by happenstance, or for reasons that you can't explain, you

13     and Arkan are in the same place or passing through the place, the same

14     place, at the same time, or in very close proximity to one another.

15             Can you explain that?

16        A.   I have already explained it.  He tried to follow me all the time.

17     I'm not sure whether he was following me to Baranja or whether he was

18     going on his business of some sort.  He was trying always to follow me so

19     that whenever I was somewhere he could say, Oh you were here or there.

20     It is dangerous.  The Croats would kidnap you, kill you, and that sort of

21     intimidation.  But anyone can draw any conclusions he or she likes.  I

22     have told you what sort of conclusion I'm drawing from this.

23        Q.   Well, in fact, Mr. Hadzic, one could easily draw the conclusion

24     that you and Arkan were very frequently together and that you had a close

25     association based upon the numbers of times now we've already gone


Page 9980

 1     through in which the two of you are together at the same place, whether

 2     it's in Belgrade, whether it's in Dalj, whether it's in Erdut, whether

 3     it's at the hospital in Vukovar, Velepromet.  The conclusion one could

 4     draw is that the reason for that is because of your close association

 5     with him.  Isn't that true?

 6        A.   No, that's not true.  It's a completely wrong conclusion.

 7     Because Slavonia and Baranja is a small area.  I wasn't there frequently,

 8     not every day, and you take out these five or six evens out of the

 9     context.

10        Q.   Did Arkan follow you into the RSK Assembly meeting on that day,

11     the 9th of October, 1993?

12        A.   He didn't enter after me.  He could enter freely of his own free

13     will.  Why would he follow me?  There were 200 deputies there.  Maybe he

14     followed someone else.  I mean, he probably entered, but why would he

15     enter after me?

16             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 714, which is P999.

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, these are the -- this is the tape-recording of what's

18     called the first sitting of the second regular session of the

19     RSK Assembly on the 9th of October, 1993, in Beli Manastir.  Directing

20     your attention to the bottom of page 2 of the English, which is at the

21     very beginning of the B/C/S as well, the first page.

22             In the beginning, Mr. Paspalj who is presiding opens the session

23     and extends a special greeting to a deputy of the Republic of Serbia,

24     Mr. Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan.  Do you recall in what capacity Arkan was

25     attending this RSK Assembly meeting?


Page 9981

 1        A.   I cannot understand that anyone may think that I should have

 2     interviewed everyone present and asked them why they came.  But you have

 3     the best answer here.  You have provided it yourself.  He was a deputy in

 4     the Republic of Serbia and he was probably a guest, I suppose.  I know

 5     just as much as you do.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  Could we go to page 7 of the English, please.  In

 7     the B/C/S version, it's the ERN page ending with 9739.

 8        Q.   Here, Mr. Hadzic, and we can back up a couple of pages, if you'd

 9     like, I'm going to suggest to you that what we're seeing on this page,

10     page 7, is your speech given that day as president of the RSK.

11             And the beginning of the second paragraph, page 7 of the English

12     you say:

13             "Because of the personal conflict between Minister Martic and

14     Commander of the Serbian Volunteer's Guard, Tigers, retreated from

15     Mali Alan and Ustashas took over that very important hill."

16             Now you mentioned this in your direct testimony.  And just one

17     brief question, because I know Your Honours are watching the clock, this

18     is the -- a reference to what you testified about on direct when --

19     because based on something Mr. Martic did Arkan withdrew and there was

20     consequences that followed?

21        A.   Yes, I think that it was that something that Martic did on his

22     own in connection with de-mining and withdrawal of the army.

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   I'm not going to ask you about the personal conflict that you

25     refer to between him and Arkan, but I do wish to direct you to the bottom


Page 9982

 1     of that same page of the English and this will be my last question,

 2     Mr. President.

 3             You say:

 4             "Pursuant to my constitutional authority and aware of the

 5     responsibility before the Serbian people we all share, I make the

 6     decision to replace the minister of the interior, Milan Martic, and the

 7     chief of the Main Staff."

 8             So what's happened here in this assembly session, Mr. Hadzic, it

 9     appears that you have now fired your interior minister, Martic, because

10     of this incident or this event that's referred to above in which Arkan

11     and his people withdrew.

12             Is that what happened?

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may the witness see the B/C/S page of this

14     particular document.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could we provide him with that.

16             MR. STRINGER:  I believe it's on the same page.  It was my belief

17     it was on the same page, Mr. President, but if it's not, it's only --

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  It seems to be there.

19             MR. STRINGER:  -- three paragraphs below from what we were just

20     reading before.

21             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Do we have to go over the page in B/C/S,

22     Mr. Zivanovic?

23             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I don't believe so.  For example, I see the word

24     "thank you" at the bottom of the document, and I cannot see it in B/C/S

25     version.


Page 9983

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So let's turn over to the next page in

 2     B/C/S.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  It should be right above where Mr. Paspalj starts

 4     speaking.

 5             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  We are on the correct page now.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   The question here, Mr. Hadzic, is --  you appear to be firing or

 9     replacing your minister of the interior, Martic, as well as the chief of

10     the Main Staff.  The question is whether that is linked to or results

11     from the incidents at Mali Alan in which Arkan withdrew.

12        A.   It was connected with the incident at Mali Alan when the Croats

13     in the undefended area entered this territory and killed the Serbs.  And

14     Martic de-mined the territory at his own initiative and he planned some

15     sort of offensive but without the knowledge of the Main Staff.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, that's a good point for today.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

19             We'll adjourn for the day.  Mr. Hadzic, you stay witness, as you

20     probably know, and still under oath.

21             Court adjourned.

22                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of July,

24                           2014, at 9.00 a.m.

25