1 Monday, 21 July 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
10 This is the case IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
14 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
15 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer, Sarah Clanton, Case Manager
16 Thomas Laugel, legal intern Katherine Davis.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell, with legal intern
21 Paul Stokes. Thank you.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
23 Mr. Hadzic, I remind you that you're still under oath.
24 Mr. Stringer, you may proceed.
25 MR. STRINGER: I regret to inform Your Honours that I'm not in
1 LiveNote, at least with the live transcript. I can start, but in the
2 meantime, if we could perhaps request that someone from the technical
3 side come in, because I would like to have it, if it's possible.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 MR. STRINGER: I have it now. Thank you.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 WITNESS: GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. To start this morning what I'd like to do first is to go back to
13 three items that we touched on Friday, or last Thursday, I should say,
14 during the cross-examination and these relate to your -- or the
15 Prosecution position that you were accompanied by Arkan at one time or
16 another, and the Prosecution position that, in fact, he was commander of
17 the -- the training centre in Erdut. And so the first of these items,
18 Mr. Hadzic, relates to that, whether, in fact, Arkan was the commander of
19 the training centre in Erdut. Because on Thursday last week, at 9947 of
20 the transcript, I was asking you about that. I asked you if you don't
21 deny that Arkan was the commander of the training centre. You said that
22 you "neither deny it nor confirm it. It had nothing to do with me."
23 I said:
24 "You're saying you don't know whether he was the commander of the
25 training centre or not?"
1 And your answer was:
2 "I won't say that I don't know. I don't know what exact
3 appointment he had."
4 That was your testimony on Thursday; do you remember that?
5 A. I do remember it, yes.
6 Q. Is that still your testimony or are you in a position now to, in
7 fact, affirm that Arkan was the commander of the training centre in Erdut
8 beginning from approximately September of 1991?
9 A. What I said on Thursday is what I can repeat today. When he may
10 have been at that position and at what time has got nothing to do with
12 MR. STRINGER: Apologies again, Mr. President. I didn't hear
13 that. I'm on the channel and ...
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer.
15 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that either translation or transcription
16 was not correct in the last answer of Mr. Hadzic. So it might be good to
17 repeat this answer.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Hadzic, could you please repeat your
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I can repeat
21 it verbatim, but what I said is that what I had said on Thursday is what
22 I stand by today. Arkan was what he was but he -- it has got nothing to
23 do with me.
24 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have 65 ter 4974.07F, as in
1 Q. And what I'd like to do, Mr. Hadzic, actually, and to inform the
2 Registrar, this is a reference to the suspect interview that you gave
3 with the investigator, Mr. Dzuro.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could we have a tab number, please, Mr. Stringer.
5 MR. STRINGER: Yes, it's tab number 1088.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
7 MR. STRINGER:
8 Q. What I'd like to do, Mr. Hadzic, is actually play a short portion
9 of the video. Do you recall that your entire suspect interview with
10 Mr. Dzuro was videotaped?
11 A. Yes, it was.
12 Q. And at the end of every day's meeting, they would give you a copy
13 of the videotape that you could then keep for yourself and review; do you
14 recall that?
15 A. I remember that.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked
17 to approach the microphone. We can barely hear him. Thank you.
18 MR. STRINGER:
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, the interpreters are asking if you could sit a bit
20 closer to the microphone. They're not hearing you so well.
21 MR. STRINGER: If we could, then, have this video-clip from the
22 suspect interview, please. And I assume that the interpreters have it?
23 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
24 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps -- what's happening hear, Mr. President,
2 is this interview is taking -- it's occurring in both languages, the
3 questions are coming in English and being put to Mr. Hadzic in his
4 language, and then they're coming back in his language and being
5 interpreted back in English. So it may be that we could simply listen to
6 the video and the audio portion of it as well and that would be
7 sufficient, rather than using interpreters here. At least the first
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. STRINGER:
11 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, you've seen your response there distinguishing
12 between being a commander of Territorial Defence versus commander of the
13 training centre. In fact, as you informed Mr. Dzuro back in 2002, you
14 knew and you know today that Arkan was the commander of the training
15 centre in Erdut. Isn't that correct, as you said more than ten years ago
16 to Mr. Dzuro?
17 A. I don't think I said anything different today. Arkan was what he
18 was, but I had nothing to do with it and I did not appoint him.
19 Q. Well, if we could stop playing word games, Mr. Hadzic, I'm going
20 to ask if you can answer directly my question.
21 Do you know that Arkan, Zeljko Raznjatovic, was the commander of
22 the training centre in Erdut from approximately September 1991. Do you
23 know or do you not know?
24 A. I don't know as of what date it was precisely. But your expert
25 witness said so too, Mr. Nilsson, he said whose centre it was.
1 Q. And do you agree with him, that it was Arkan's training centre?
2 A. No, he didn't say it was Arkan's centre. He enumerated several
3 centres and said that one of the centres was the one in Erdut. Because
4 it was a Serbian MUP centre.
5 Q. In October of 1991, was Arkan the commander of the training
6 centre in Erdut?
7 A. I know that Arkan was there but not in what capacity. No one
8 told me anything of the sort, and I did not receive any documents to that
9 effect. Arkan was there in October, Arkan and his unit.
10 Q. When you told Vladimir Dzuro here in March of 2002 that he was
11 the commander of the training centre, that was, in fact, the correct
12 statement, wasn't it?
13 A. I'm telling the truth now and I told the truth then.
14 Q. The next item, Mr. Hadzic, from last week and this was something
15 I failed to follow up on after His Honour Judge Delvoie permitted the
16 Prosecution to put a question to you about whether, in fact, Arkan
17 accompanied you to Velepromet in Vukovar on the 20th of November from
18 Erdut. Do you remember me asking you those questions?
19 A. I do remember it.
20 Q. And I want to go back -- well, and just to recap. Your evidence
21 in this case is that, in fact, on that day, you went with your security
22 people, Mr. Japundzic and Mr. Munduric, as well as Savo Stupar. Is that
23 correct, that was the testimony you gave here? That's at page 9755.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Let's go back again to the suspect interview when you met with
1 Mr. Dzuro.
2 MR. STRINGER: And this is 65 ter 4974.04. And I will get the
3 tab number for Your Honour.
4 And on this list, just start with the -- start with the
5 transcript, if we can. It's tab 1085.
6 Q. Because Mr. Dzuro asked you about this as well, Mr. Hadzic. This
7 is page 51.
8 And at the top of the page he asked:
9 "Did Arkan and his man provide security for you?"
10 And you said:
11 "Not specifically but only in regard to those general assessments
12 when I was in the field."
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer -- sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we have B/C/S text on the screen, on
15 the left side of the screen, please.
16 MR. STRINGER: Is it there? Can I continue?
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think it is, Mr. Stringer. Please continue.
18 MR. STRINGER:
19 Q. Mr. Dzuro is asking did Arkan provide security for you. You
21 "Not specifically but only in regard to these general
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you give us a page number, Mr. Stringer.
25 In -- in B/C/S.
1 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps it would be easier, Mr. President, to go
2 to the video. So if we could please have 4974.04F, as in Francis. And
3 again we can just listen to the audio.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear anything.
6 MR. STRINGER: It may that be we need to turn up the volume. I
7 had to turn it up for myself so ...
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: So did I, Mr. Stringer, indeed.
9 MR. STRINGER: For the record, we're at pages 40 and 41 of the
10 B/C/S version.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. STRINGER:
13 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Hadzic, does that refresh your memory? Do you
14 recall telling Mr. Dzuro that Arkan provided security for you when you
15 went to Velepromet in Vukovar on the 20th of November, 1991?
16 A. This did not jog my memory with regard to the event that took
17 place on the 20th of November in Vukovar. I came unprepared to respond
18 to these questions, and I did not provide specific answers. In a way,
19 the question was put twice. When the investigator asked me whether Arkan
20 provided support, I thought he had the government in mind. But now you
21 are tying this to me alone. And I had to rewind every second of what
22 happened back then to try and figure out what happened in which way so as
23 to be precise. So on this recording, I didn't think much. There was a
24 question and an answer. I thought he meant the government. He provided
25 security for the government in Velepromet, but it doesn't mean that he
1 accompanied me alone, as one might conclude from Mr. Prosecutor's
3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we're referring to this as a suspect interview, and
4 that's because at that time you gave this interview, you were a suspect
5 and they told that you in advance. Isn't that true?
6 A. Of course. And I said so when you asked me that here.
7 Q. And you had a lawyer who you brought who was also present with
8 you in these interviews. Isn't that also correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And they told you in advance that, in fact, your answers here
11 could be used against you if today ever came. Isn't that also true?
12 A. Yes, that's what was said and it is now proven correct. Yes.
13 Q. And so, in fact, this was a serious matter, and you were trying
14 to give your best answers and your best recollection of the events.
15 Isn't that also true?
16 A. Yes, I said the truth at the time as if I were under an oath. I
17 did not find it necessary to keep anything back.
18 Q. And the truth at the time is the same as the truth today on this,
19 which is you were accompanied by Arkan when you travelled from Erdut to
20 Velepromet on the 20th of November, 1991. Can you -- can you accept that
22 A. I have no problem with accepting anything or not. I'm testifying
23 under oath and I'm supposed to say how things happened.
24 As for my recollection, it is not the same now as it was
25 ten years ago. I have now had occasion to rewind and to remember every
1 detail because every word is important. When the investigator back then
2 asked me if Arkan escorted me, I thought, yes, he was there at Velepromet
3 and I thought that was the escort. But he had arrived at Velepromet
4 before I did.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
7 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think it is not correct translation. Because
8 the witness did not say "if Arkan escorted me," but "you."
9 It's page 10, line 1.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: I -- I see it, Mr. Zivanovic.
11 Please continue, Mr. Stringer.
12 MR. STRINGER:
13 Q. Well, Mr. Hadzic, let's go back then to your testimony one last
14 time briefly in the Dokmanovic case. Here you were under oath testifying
15 as a Defence witness.
16 MR. STRINGER: That's 65 ter 02320. Tab 830.
17 Q. We talked about this last week. I just want to come back to this
18 quickly, Mr. Hadzic, because I don't think it's productive for us to
19 spend too much more time on this.
20 At page 3100 of the transcript in that case, you were
21 specifically asked, and now this is it back even further to 1998:
22 "Isn't it a fact that he accompanied you from Erdut on that day
23 driving to Velepromet?"
24 And, again, as you did with Mr. Dzuro, four years later here you
25 testified that, in essence, yes, he did, as you said:
1 "We needed that. We didn't want any incidents to occur."
2 So, Mr. Hadzic, we've got you saying this in Dokmanovic in 1998.
3 You've said it again to Mr. Dzuro in your suspect interview, 2002. Why
4 not just admit it today that in fact that's how it happened? Arkan
5 accompanied you to Velepromet on the 20th of November, 1991.
6 A. If I were not under oath I could acknowledge that in order to
7 satisfy you, but I can't because it's not true. I recalled every step I
8 made that day. I went from Erdut to Palanka, collected Stupar, and came
9 to Vukovar from Sotin. That is not in dispute. When I say Arkan
10 escorted us, I meant the entire government, and he had already awaited us
11 there at Velepromet. That is the truth. I did not have any intention to
12 provide false testimony in the Dokmanovic case because I testified under
13 oath. But I simply answered the question the way I did, because it
14 wasn't clear to me. It wasn't as clear as you are putting it now.
15 The problem was, Your Honour, that the ministers did not want to
16 attend a government session in Vukovar. Dr. Hadzic insisted that someone
17 there should guarantee safety. So it was an arrangement between
18 Dr. Hadzic and the government secretary to have Arkan there. That is not
19 in dispute. I did not deny that. I'd rather not going into that much
20 detail and I'm not very well versed in legal matters.
21 Q. The last item from last week, Mr. Hadzic, I was asking you about
22 what is now Exhibit P3208, which was at tab 1671 -- 1681, sorry. And we
23 don't have to show that. Mr. Hadzic, this was the video footage of the
24 ceremony, if you will, that occurred at the Golubic base facility in
25 1992. Do you remember my asking you about that and showing you the
1 footage of that event?
2 A. I remember.
3 Q. And I was asking you if it was Arkan who was seated behind you at
4 that, when we showed that footage. Do you recall that?
5 A. I remember that you asked me that.
6 Q. And in response to my questions, you said that you did not
7 especially notice him but did you not exclude the possibility that he was
8 there. You said:
9 "He may or may not have been there."
10 That's at transcript 9978.
11 So with that, Mr. Hadzic, we went back and we -- we pulled
12 another video-clip from that event that I'd like to show you now.
13 MR. STRINGER: 65 ter 04843. Which is tab ... yeah, tab 1682,
14 which is 04982.01. If we could start at 2 minutes, 50 seconds. And we
15 should wait here for the interpreters to tell us they're ready.
16 THE INTERPRETER: We are ready.
17 MR. STRINGER: [Microphone not activated] Okay. We can start.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear what is
20 being said.
21 MR. STRINGER: I know that the interpreters have said they can't
22 hear it. We've got it at full volume. But perhaps, Mr. President, the
23 point can be made with the image and not the audio because the point is
24 whether he was present there. So perhaps at this point --
25 Q. So perhaps at this point, Mr. Hadzic, can we agree -- I know you
1 said you didn't notice him, but now does this help you remember that, in
2 fact, he spoke, Arkan spoke and gave a speech at this event in Golubic?
3 A. Last time, you asked me whether the person behind me was Arkan.
4 I said that maybe yes, maybe no. I'm -- I saw that Arkan was there,
5 although I myself did not remember that he was. But now I can see that
6 he indeed was there.
7 Q. Do you recall in what capacity he would have been present and
8 giving a speech at this event in 1992?
9 A. I don't remember that. However, he was greeted as the commander
10 of the Serbian Volunteer Guards by the person who introduced him.
11 Q. Can we agree that he was, in fact, the commander of the Serbian
12 Volunteer Guards?
13 A. There is nothing for me to agree or not agree. It's a fact.
14 MR. STRINGER: We tender that, Mr. President, tender that
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3209.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
19 MR. STRINGER:
20 Q. Now, that was 1992. I'd like to move ahead to a couple of events
21 in 1993, Mr. Hadzic, the first of which is at tab 1051, P03135. And
22 while that's coming up, this relates to the minutes of the RSK Assembly
23 meeting that occurred on the 9th of October, 1993, in Beli Manastir. And
24 if you will recall, Mr. Hadzic, last Thursday, I was asking you to look
25 at some of the -- the tape-recorded minutes of that assembly session.
1 That was P00999.
2 Mr. Hadzic, do you remember my asking you about your speech that
3 day when you actually decommissioned or fired Milan Martic as the
4 minister of the interior and referred to a -- a personal dispute between
5 him and Arkan in your speech? Do you recall my asking you about that?
6 A. I remember. That was on last Thursday.
7 Q. And so now I want to just show you some video footage of that
8 assembly session on 9th of October, 1993. This is again tab 1051,
9 Exhibit P03135. P3135.
10 MR. STRINGER: And we'll wait for the interpreters.
11 THE INTERPRETER: We are unable to find the correct P number.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. STRINGER: It's at 65 ter number 4876. -- excuse me, 4896.7
14 if that assists.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you. We've found it.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "MO: Mr. President, the unit is
18 lined up in your honour. Major Ostojic reporting.
19 "GH: God be with you, heros.
20 "S: God be with you too.
21 "MO: Attention."
22 MR. STRINGER: If we could just go back a couple of seconds.
23 Q. I wanted to ask you, Mr. Hadzic, who was the gentleman in the
24 camouflage that you're speaking to there if you recall?
25 A. That is General Mile Novakovic. I remember it very well.
1 Q. And was he at the time the commander of the armed forces of the
2 Republic of the Serbian Krajina?
3 A. At that time, he was the commander of the Serbian Army of
4 Krajina. It was interpreted as slightly different to me, but that was
6 Q. Yeah. And in English, I would use the letters, SVK. The Army of
7 the Serbian Krajina. Yeah.
8 And when we saw you outside the meeting hall when you were
9 inspecting the troops and you were greeted as the president, was it
10 then -- were those the troops of the Army of the Serbian Krajina that you
11 were inspecting there?
12 A. Yes, that was a unit from Beli Manastir municipality, from the
13 Serbian Army of Krajina, from the Baranja Division.
14 MR. STRINGER: So we can continue then.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. STRINGER:
17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can you identify the gentleman who was the second
18 from the left on the screen?
19 A. That's Arkan.
20 Q. By this time, was he a political ally of you?
21 A. No, he was never my political ally. But he was a Serbian
22 politician at that time.
23 Q. Do you know precisely in what capacity he was a Serbian
25 A. He was a deputy in the Assembly of Serbia.
1 Q. And at the time he was a deputy in the Assembly of Serbia, was he
2 also continuing to command his own unit? He was still a soldier, whether
3 it was a Serbian Volunteer Guard or a different unit. Was he also a
4 soldier at this time active in military operations?
5 A. I don't have any direct knowledge about that. However, from what
6 I heard, I think that he didn't come often to Slavonia and Baranja at
7 that time, and when he did, he appeared in civilian clothes or at least
8 that's what I heard.
9 Q. Well, because in your speech that we discussed earlier, which is
10 set out in P999, which are the minutes, you referred to this incident
11 where Martic had his people withdraw from a certain feature or a location
12 and that there were bad consequences from that.
13 So that suggests to me, sir, that in fact Arkan was continuing to
14 command units that were in the field that were participating in the armed
15 conflict; correct?
16 A. I can't proffer a comment on your conclusion because that unit,
17 as far as I know, was not under Arkan's command. It was a small unit who
18 had its commanders. I don't know who they were. They were known as the
19 Tigers, and there may have been some 20 or so of them in Velebit, in the
20 area of Mali Alan. But at that time, I couldn't conclude that they were
21 under direct Arkan's command when they were in the field. However, if
22 you say so ...
23 Q. Let's see if we can -- if we can get you to say so.
24 MR. STRINGER: Let's go back to P999. These are the minutes we
25 were looking at last week. Page 7 of the English, page 41 of the B/C/S.
1 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is from your speech. The top of -- well, the
2 second paragraph on page 7:
3 "Because of the personal conflict between Minister Martic and the
4 commander of the Serbian Volunteer Guards Tigers retreated from
5 Mali Alan ..."
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I can see that. We saw it on Thursday as well.
8 Q. So can we agree that as of this time-period, early October 1993
9 or so, Mr. Arkan -- Mr. Raznjatovic, Arkan, in addition to being a member
10 of the Serbian parliament or a deputy, was continuing to command units of
11 the Serbian Volunteer Guards in operations in the RSK; correct?
12 A. It is not my intention to launch a debate on things that are
13 clear. Arkan was the commander of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, and in
14 this case, he was not in command of that small unit when they were in the
15 field because they were in Velebit. They were deployed there, and they
16 were under somebody else's command. I don't know who their commander
18 MR. STRINGER: Could we have 65 ter 4774, tab 964, please. And
19 we don't need audio or interpretation for this, I believe.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. STRINGER:
22 Q. Now it's a short clip, Mr. Hadzic. Do you recognise that place?
23 We can show it again, if you'd like.
24 A. Please do.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe I recognise the venue.
2 I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I would think that it is the Sava Centre
3 in Belgrade.
4 MR. STRINGER:
5 Q. That's my information as well. Did you recognise
6 Zeljko Raznjatovic there? First of all, let me ask: What was the
7 Sava Centre or do you recall what this event was, what was taking place
9 A. I remember the event very well. It was a meeting of all Serb
10 assemblies which should have adopted Vance-Owen's Plan, which was the
11 peace plan for Bosnia and Herzegovina and the plan which was supported by
12 the European Union and the United Nations.
13 Q. Now referring to the Vance-Owen Plan, it's my understanding or
14 belief that this was first released or proposed officially in early 1993,
15 January of 1993. Would that be roughly the time-frame for the footage
16 that we've just seen, early 1993?
17 A. I don't think so. I think that the meeting took place later.
18 Because in 1993, I was preoccupied with Maslenica operation and
19 negotiations with the international community. This was much later
20 because Mr. Raznjatovic came as a deputy in the Assembly of the Republic
21 of Serbia. We hadn't seen each other for a long time, hence we greeted
22 each other cordially. I believe that this could have happened either in
23 mid-1993, if not towards the end of that year.
24 Q. Okay. And you've actually anticipated my next question, then.
25 Was it Mr. Raznjatovic, Arkan, who greeted you there in the kiss or the
1 embrace in the footage that we've just seen at that session?
2 A. The interpretation I got was "Kistanje," whereas I believe that
3 the event took place at the Sava Centre in Belgrade. Kistanje is
4 Dalmatia. There must have been a mistake in the interpretation.
5 Q. Okay. I -- Mr. Hadzic, I do believe the record does indicate
6 your testimony that it was the Sava Centre in Belgrade. But just so that
7 we're clear, is that in fact where this is taking place?
8 A. Yes, I agree.
9 Q. And as we saw in the video footage, it was Arkan who greeted you
10 or you had a -- a kiss or an embrace there, and that's what we saw in the
12 A. Everybody saw that, we all did. So, yes, you're right.
13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender 65 ter 4774.
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3210, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
17 MR. STRINGER: Could we have tab 979, please. P3124. And we'll
18 go to time code 1 minute, 18 seconds.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters are ready.
21 MR. STRINGER: Do the interpreters have this?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, yes, we're ready.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. STRINGER: I think we've got the wrong clip up,
25 Mr. President. Although it appears possibly to be the same event.
1 Q. Can you tell us what we've seen so far in this clip?
2 A. This was seen on TV Belgrade. It was a media -- an event which
3 was widely covered by the media. This was Arkan's wedding, the morning
4 of the wedding, that is. When they actually escorted Arkan to Zitoradja
5 in the south of Serbia to get the girl.
6 Q. That was -- I have it as the 19th of February, 1995.
7 A. It is quite possible. I don't remember when the wedding was, but
8 I believe that it was in 1995.
9 Q. You attended the wedding; correct?
10 A. Yes, yes. I was there, but only in the afternoon. I did not
11 participate in the morning ceremony.
12 Q. You came to the wedding reception that followed?
13 A. Yes, I came to the church wedding in Belgrade.
14 Q. Do you recall whether Stevo Bogic also attended the reception, at
15 least, of Arkan's wedding?
16 A. I got this CD a couple of months ago. I reviewed it very
17 carefully, and I saw in the video-clip that Stevo Bogic was there.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. STRINGER: Let's have, please, tab 803 which is P1937. It's
20 a document, not a video.
21 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we're looking here at an interview that you gave in
22 March of 1995. Do you recall this article? Do you recall the interview?
23 This is clearly quite some time after you've stopped being president of
24 the RSK at -- at the end of 1993.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I think that the text in B/C/S
2 could not be seen clearly.
3 MR. STRINGER: Yeah, I was hoping maybe the photograph might jog
4 his memory, but I've got specific parts that I can direct Mr. Hadzic to,
5 Mr. President.
6 If we could just stay on the first page or so of the B/C/S and
7 page 1 of the English, the first heading reads:
8 "Armed cabinet of the republic's president."
9 Then I'd like to go to the second paragraph after that. If we
10 could just blow that up in the B/C/S at least.
11 Q. And perhaps just to jog your memory, there's the second
12 paragraph -- second sentence says:
13 "Goran Hadzic, former first man of the Republika Srpska Krajina
14 and today's president of the Serb Democratic party of all Serb
15 countries," and it refers to your recent visit to Geneva which had
16 dragged you back into the open. And I believe you testified about this
17 period in -- toward the end of your direct exam, where you had left
18 politics or you had left public life and then you returned in 1995 in
19 roughly the capacity that's indicated here. Do you recall that?
20 A. I remember everything. You mentioned a few things here. I said
21 on Thursday that I did go to Geneva later, when I was no longer
22 president, that I talked with all the ambassadors of the Contact Group
23 countries. And I was also the president of the party of all Serb
24 countries for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. It was the SDS party
25 of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
1 MR. STRINGER: If we could go to page 6 of the English, which is
2 page 27 of the article, on the page of the article, in the B/C/S.
3 Q. And --
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. Is it possible to zoom in the B/C/S text,
6 MR. STRINGER: Well, if counsel could just give me just a second,
7 Mr. President, I'll say what the text is I'd like to look at and then
8 that might assist the Registrar in identifying what needs to be blown up.
9 MR. ZIVANOVIC: If I can say, I think that the accused is
10 entitled to see whole text before Mr. Stringer put him the question.
11 MR. STRINGER: Well, we've not done this previously, I don't
12 think, Mr. President. But if -- and I do -- although we've got a lot of
13 time for the cross-examination, I don't wish to really take time to
14 just --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: It is a long article, isn't it? You said six
16 pages. We are at page 6 in the English text?
17 MR. STRINGER: Yes, yes.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: I think we have to --
19 MR. STRINGER: What we could do --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: -- limit the reading to the parts you want to ask
21 about, Mr. Stringer.
22 MR. STRINGER: We -- I will do that, Mr. President. And if the
23 Chamber wishes, at the break, we could provide Mr. Hadzic with a hard
24 copy that he could read --
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay --
1 MR. STRINGER: -- and we could come back to it, if he feels it
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: That's okay.
4 MR. STRINGER:
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'd like to go to the bottom of page 6 of the
6 English, the very bottom of that page that starts with the words:
7 "I met Arkan on the Danube's bank three years ago ..."
8 And that part in your version is on page -- sorry, yes, as I
9 said, 27 of the B/C/S, starting at the bottom of the middle column and
10 then continuing to the top of the third column, and it starts with the
12 "People talk that you together with Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan,
13 smuggled Slavonian oil."
14 So that's the section or the heading that we're starting with.
15 So it's very bottom of the second column. We could start with that and
16 then move up.
17 MR. STRINGER: If the Registrar could perhaps blow that up a bit.
18 Q. Can you see that, Mr. Hadzic? The very bottom of that middle
19 column, that's the heading that I'd like to refer you to. I'm not going
20 to ask you about smuggling, but just so we're oriented. And then moving
21 up to the top of the third column, are you able to read that on the
22 screen? Do you want to take a minute to read that?
23 A. Half a minute.
24 MR. STRINGER: And for the English, we can move to page 7.
25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I want to ask you a few questions about your remarks
1 about Zeljko Raznjatovic here.
2 Top of page 7 you say:
3 "I only know that he helped the people here a lot. He personally
4 conducted all the operations of his Tigers. He left this place
6 What do you mean by "spotless" there? I'd like to give you a
7 chance to explain that. I'd suggest perhaps you're indicating that he
8 left it spotless in respect of non-Serbs.
9 A. My bringing up would never permit me to draw such a conclusion.
10 It's clear what was being discussed here. Crime was mentioned and I
11 believed -- since at that time I didn't have any information that Arkan
12 was involved in any crimes, I believed that he left without any blame.
13 He didn't commit any thefts or robbery, in economic terms. That's what I
14 meant. At least as far as I know. The topic of the conversation with
15 the journalist -- and I didn't authorise the interview. We spoke at my
16 house. She didn't even tape the interview. We talked, then she made the
17 interview without my knowledge, without consulting with me. The topic
18 was crime. That was that question I was charged of -- with smuggling oil
19 and cutting down timber, which I did not do.
20 Q. Continuing down a few lines you say that:
21 "Some people objected that Arkan attended RSK government
22 sessions. I respected his knowledge of the military and thus he attended
23 the sessions."
24 Now, Mr. Hadzic, what this suggests here is that, in fact, Arkan
25 attended assembly sessions of the RSK because you wanted him to do so.
1 Isn't that how it was? Because of his military skill.
2 A. No, this is absolutely incorrect. I did not say that, nor can
3 that stand in any sensible way. In my interpretation I heard "assembly,"
4 but here it says "government of the RSK." I was not a member of the
5 government. I had no influence on the agenda. I didn't attend the
6 meetings. I personally attended the government meetings maybe two or
7 three times, but when I attended Arkan was not present. So I don't know.
8 These are some conclusions by the journalist, and it's not anything that
9 I myself said.
10 Q. Well, we know that in fact he attended the assembly session on
11 the 9th of October, 1993, which is the time that you fired Mr. Martic
12 because of that operation at Mali Alan; correct?
13 A. Yes. But the assembly is one thing and the government is
14 another. He attended the assembly session as a guest as a deputy from
15 the Republic of Serbia with Dr. Sava --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last name.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were members of the assembly
18 attending from Belgrade.
19 MR. STRINGER:
20 Q. That was a reference to Dr. Sava Stupar?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But is -- what's indicated here is true, isn't it, that people
23 objected --
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I see it is not translated, the capacity
25 of Dr. Sava Stupar, in what capacity he attended the assembly.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: And did -- did the witness indicate that
2 capacity, Mr. Zivanovic?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Yes, he did.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
5 Could you repeat, Mr. Hadzic.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sava Stupar was a deputy and
7 vice-president of the Vojvodina Assembly, the Autonomous Province of
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. STRINGER:
11 Q. The fact is people did object to your close association with
12 Arkan during the period that you were the president of the RSK. Isn't
13 that true?
14 A. No. I was not -- I did not have a close association with him,
15 nor did anybody criticise me for that or object to that. At least not to
16 my knowledge.
17 Q. You said:
18 "I cannot survive because I am consistent to the policy, both
19 choice and loyalty to my friends. I was directly suggested to renounce
20 some people in order to stay at the top, which I did not do and I am
21 still following the same policy and have the same friends."
22 So with that let me ask you again, Mr. Hadzic: Isn't it true
23 that others around you wanted you to renounce Arkan and discontinue your
24 relationship and association with him?
25 A. No, that is not true. It's absolutely incorrect.
1 Q. You never heard anything negative about Zeljko Raznjatovic during
2 the period September 1991 to the end of 1993?
3 A. What I heard, I told you in my testimony. I explained how I
4 heard it and who told me that.
5 Q. I'm asking you: From September 1991 to the end of 1993, is it
6 your evidence that you never heard anything negative about the activities
7 of Zeljko Raznjatovic?
8 A. I've just said that I already told you what I had heard in
9 relation to the incident in the village of Trpinja.
10 Q. Well, you also know that he spoke to you and threatened to kill
11 the children of Milan Babic if he did not accept the Vance Plan. That
12 must have suggested to you something about the quality of
13 Mr. Raznjatovic.
14 A. I heard that from him personally, but he didn't kill Milan
15 Babic's children. As for the qualities, well, that was clear to me when
16 I heard that, but I didn't hear anything else. I was careful because of
17 the threats that I had received.
18 Q. Well, you were careful in your relations with Arkan because you
19 knew he was a dangerous killer. Isn't that how it was?
20 A. These are your words, "a dangerous killer." A dangerous man. I
21 didn't know that he was a dangerous killer.
22 Q. But what he was to you, even in March of 1995, was your friend,
23 as you say here in the article, and that you remained loyal to him and
24 did not renounce him because he was your friend throughout this entire
25 period of time. Isn't that true?
1 A. That is not true at all. This is completely in a different
2 context here. As for talking about Arkan, I finished that in the first
3 half, in the first few lines. As for the second half of the interview,
4 this is something completely different. It has nothing to do with my
5 friendships. I had many other friendships.
6 Q. I'm not saying you didn't have other friends, but it's true, sir,
7 isn't it, that you counted Arkan as among your friends here when you gave
8 this interview in March of 1995? You attended his wedding just one month
10 A. The only thing that could be true from all of this is that I
11 never said that he was my enemy. I never said that he was my friend,
13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I asked you, I believe it was last Thursday,
14 referring to your suspect interview, you described for Mr. Dzuro a
15 meeting that you attended in Belgrade - I believe you said it was in the
16 fall of 1991 - in which Arkan was also present and a gentleman named or
17 known to you as Kum. Do you recall my asking you about that?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Yeah. And what you told Mr. Dzuro was that at this meeting,
20 there was a discussion of setting up or creating a Serb army from the
21 JNA. Do you remember my asking you about that, your description of that
22 to Mr. Dzuro?
23 A. Yes, I remember you asked that, but I don't know how I described
24 that to Dzuro. But it was just an accidental thing. It was not the --
25 the main thing at all.
1 Q. Right. It was an accident that you and Arkan were at this
2 meeting in Belgrade. That's your evidence?
3 A. As for it being a coincidence, an accident, I didn't say that.
4 But I was talking about what you asked me, whether the Serbian army was
5 discussed, and I said that was a silly thing. It was just one sentence,
6 and I didn't get myself involved in that.
7 As for the meeting, I can explain how this occurred. Well, it
8 couldn't have been a coincidence. Somebody did schedule the meeting and
9 somebody invited those guests who were supposed to attend.
10 MR. STRINGER: Could we have, please, 65 ter 4974.04C, as in
11 Charlie, which is tab 1085. Pages 23, 24 of the English; 18 and 19 of
12 the B/C/S.
13 Q. We can take another look at this briefly, Mr. Hadzic.
14 MR. STRINGER: We can use just the transcript for this. We don't
15 need the video.
16 Q. And it's just starting at the bottom of page 23 of the English.
17 You said:
18 "I was there independently from Arkan."
19 And that's as you've described in your evidence here in this
20 trial. And then continuing to page 24 of the English. You're -- in the
21 middle of the page you're describing, first of all, that General --
22 Lieutenant-General Simovic was there. He was with the Serbian Ministry
23 of Defence; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. He was in fact the defence minister?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. And then you're describing this gentleman who presented himself
3 as a colonel of the Russian army or known only to you as Kum. And then
4 toward the bottom of page 24 of the English, you say:
5 "At the time, they proposed that a Serb army be made, that this
6 is senseless, that the JNA was a Communist army, that we would never be
7 able to win the war against the Croats without a Serbian army. They were
8 telling all this to Simovic ..."
9 And then just continuing on to the next page of the English. And
10 this is where you said, as you've said here, that -- you said:
11 "As soon as I saw what this was all about, I did not talk
12 anymore, I did not speak, did not take part in the work of this meeting."
13 Is that still your recollection of how it was at that meeting,
14 Mr. Hadzic?
15 A. Yes. You just omitted something when you were talking about this
16 Kum. He introduced himself as a Russian army colonel, but I said that
17 that was a completely silly thing. It had nothing to do with it. It was
18 not true. Nobody knew what his actual name was. He was there for five
19 or six days, and then later no more was heard from him ever.
20 Q. Did you see him on other occasions then, apart from this meeting?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Well, you said he was there for six or seven days. I'm just
23 wondering how you knew that.
24 A. He was there just for a brief period. Perhaps ten days; perhaps
25 five or six days. And then at least -- and then he never appeared again.
1 At least I never heard of it.
2 Q. Were in Belgrade during this same period of six, seven, or
3 ten days?
4 A. Yes. Perhaps I was there two or three times in Serbia, in
5 Novi Sad, to see my family. Perhaps in Belgrade at a press conference.
6 Things like that.
7 Q. Was it during this same period of this meeting that you also had
8 the meeting at the defence ministry with General Djordjevic? I asked you
9 about that last week also.
10 A. I'm not sure about that, whether it was the same day or another
11 day. I really cannot say.
12 MR. STRINGER: Could we have P1742, which is tab 448.
13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is an article from March of 1992 Politika. And
14 I think you said in your direct examination at some point that Politika
15 was -- you described it as something like the Serbian newspaper for at
16 least your area in Eastern Slavonia. Would that be a correct
17 characterisation of Politika?
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, just one correction. It is another
19 newspaper called Borba but it is just news from the Politika area.
20 MR. STRINGER: I'm looking at the top of the B/C/S and it says
21 "Politika" at the top. But I don't know that it is -- is all that
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is just kind of columns. But the paper is
24 Borba and it was written on the left side of the screen.
25 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.
1 Q. There were a couple of things in this article I wanted to direct
2 you to, Mr. Hadzic. One of which -- I'll just go straight to it. There
3 are a number of comments directed to you. And in your version, the
4 original language version, just at the top of the third and the fourth
5 columns, there's a heading that says: "Ciscenje armije," which is like
6 clearing of the army although others are much better off or in a much
7 better position than me to say what that means.
8 In the English we have "clearings in the army," and here there's
9 a statement attributed to you:
10 "In my opinion, a great part of the army is now cleared, over
11 80 per cent. There is still a small group that could create problems but
12 it very insignificant, and I hope that the outcome will be positive and
13 that they will realise whose army they are and who they belong to."
14 Mr. Hadzic, in fact you, like Arkan in the meeting in Belgrade
15 that I asked you about, you also supported clearing the JNA and making it
16 into a Serb army. Isn't that true?
17 A. No, that is not correct. These two events are not related. This
18 is about my political convictions, and it's a problem that we had with
19 the SK movement for Yugoslavia which was very powerful in the military
20 leadership. So I was referring to that problem of that SK movement for
21 Yugoslavia issue. At a meeting at General Simovic's, I was invited by
22 General Simovic, he was the minister of defence of Serbia. He invited
23 his guests, and Arkan was a part of the Serbian state and he came as part
24 of Serbia. That is what I had to accept. He came as a member of the
25 institution of Serbia to Slavonia and Baranja. I was not the one who
1 could decide who could attend the meeting or not. I had the choice of
2 talking or staying silent and I chose to remain silent at that meeting.
3 Q. Well, at the time of the meeting with General Simovic, though,
4 Arkan was also based at the training centre in Erdut commanding the
5 Serbian Volunteer Guard; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you travel to Belgrade with Arkan on that occasion?
8 A. No.
9 Q. On any occasion, did you travel with Arkan to Belgrade?
10 A. I don't recall. I don't think so.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, would this be an appropriate time?
12 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Court adjourned.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
15 [The witness stands down]
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.
19 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. During the break I'd
20 actually inquired whether it would be possible for me to raise something
21 with the Chamber before Mr. Hadzic was brought into the courtroom. I can
22 wait or ...
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: It seems there has been a little
25 miscommunication, Mr. Stringer. We can ask the security to escort
1 Mr. Hadzic out of the courtroom for a moment.
2 MR. STRINGER: Apologies to Mr. Hadzic, but I think it would just
3 be best to do it rather than later.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. Yeah.
5 Please, Mr. Hadzic.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I just wish to ask the Chamber's
8 guidance on something that I would hope to do during a later part of the
9 cross-examination, perhaps during this session.
10 During his direct examination, Mr. Hadzic gave evidence about
11 when he first met Arkan and Badza, Radovan Stojicic, together in Dalj in
12 early August of 1991, and he goes on to describe that or to give evidence
13 about it. And in his direct examination, he gave the names of two other
14 individuals who had accompanied Badza, Stojicic, or who were accompanying
15 him when they met there in Dalj in early August of 1991. (redacted)
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 10018-10027 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: We are in open session.
14 Could you perhaps, Mr. Stringer, go back to that part of the
16 MR. STRINGER: Maybe it's just best to start again.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'd referred you to the section of this article which
18 refers to Seselj, Jovic, Paroski. You've now read that. And my question
19 then was to suggest that all three of these gentlemen were leaders of
20 personnel who were outside the JNA who did come and support the cause of
21 establishing the Serbian Autonomous Region of SBWS in late 1991. And
22 perhaps I should expand that as well to other autonomous regions, either
23 Western Slavonia or the Knin Krajina.
24 A. I don't know what Seselj, Jovic's, and Paroski's roles were in
25 other parts, in the eastern part. In Slavonia, Baranja, and Western
1 Srem, they didn't play a political role. They only organised volunteers
2 in Serbia and they sent them to Slavonia and Baranja via the JNA.
3 Volunteers were not able to come or be deployed in that territory if they
4 were not JNA members.
5 Q. Well, you had personal communications with Jovic and Paroski
6 during the early period, I would say, spring, mid-1991. Isn't that true?
7 You were dealing with them, you were personally in contact with them and
8 discussing with them or dealing with them on issues related to support.
10 A. I had communication with Paroski before the war, before I even
11 knew that there would be a war. He appeared at the first conference of
12 the SDS in Vukovar on 10th of June, that's when I met him. And then I
13 met him again only once, in Novi Sad. As for Mr. Jovic, I saw him only
14 later in Stara Pazova where he resided. We met at a lunch. And then he
15 visited Slavonia and Baranja and that's where I met him again, in Erdut.
16 He supported Milan Babic which means that he supported a policy totally
17 different from mine.
18 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1052, which is
19 Exhibit P00240. This is video. We do want the audio and so if the
20 interpreters could indicate when they've found that.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could we also have the 65 ter number because we
23 don't have P numbers on the materials that we have received.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's 04904.1.
25 MR. STRINGER: 04904.1.
1 Let me come back to this, Mr. President. Let's skip it for the
2 time being. I don't know that we've got it ready.
3 Q. What we can do instead, Mr. Hadzic, is move to a different video
4 that relates to this article, I'd suggest.
5 MR. STRINGER: Tab 1010, which is P0117.111. Do the interpreters
6 need the 65 ter number for that?
7 THE INTERPRETER: No, thank you. We have found the document.
8 MR. STRINGER: Okay. We can play this, then.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... and he spoke with Mile Mrksic
11 and members of his staff.
12 "... 3 kilometres south of Vukovar."
13 MR. STRINGER: Okay. And what we can do now is to scroll ahead
14 to time code 4 minutes, 40 seconds.
15 Apologies, Mr. President. We've got it. Okay. We should be
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And of our own initiative we did
19 what we did, and we wouldn't have destroyed it to the extent that we did
20 had they decided to surrender, but they didn't want to surrender. And
21 secondly, the men did not want to charge, you know. You can go about
22 attacking using equipment to no end, but if you don't have a man who will
23 seize it ... that's the greatest merit of Arkan's volunteers. Some are
24 imputing, however, that I am acting in collusion with paramilitary
25 formations. Those are not paramilitary formations here. Those are men
1 who have come voluntarily to fight for the Serb people. We encircle a
2 village, he storms in, and whoever doesn't want to surrender he kills
3 off, and we move on.
4 "And we are here to defend these people, to help, together with
5 the Yugoslav Army. Actually, for me, this is the Serbian army because
6 I -- it is known, the Army of Yugoslavia was deployed from Djevdjelija,
7 from Sezana to Djevdjelija. This is no more, so this a Serbian army, and
8 it's the nucleus of the future Serbian army that we're only going to
9 cleanse. Meaning that we throw out these 80 per cent of generals who
10 have been passive and who haven't been fighting, who have been betraying
11 the people. And naturally that the real people - these generals who are
12 here, and others who are war-time generals, who have distinguished
13 themselves, and officers who have distinguished themselves in this war -
14 take over and just transfer the Yugoslav Army into a Serbian army.
15 Therefore, I think we all have a common goal and that is united Serbian
16 states, which would consist of Serbia, Montenegro, the Serb Republic of
17 Krajina, and a Serb republic in Bosnia, that we create the united Serbian
18 states ..."
19 MR. STRINGER:
20 Q. Mr. Hadzic, what was interesting here is that Mr. Raznjatovic,
21 Arkan, refers to 80 per cent as being the number of generals who have to
22 be expelled in order to make the JNA into a Serbian army, which is
23 coincidentally the same percentage that you use in this article. You're
24 referring to a great part of the army is now cleared over 80 per cent.
25 So I'm going to put it to you, sir, that in fact what you're talking
1 about here is the same thing that Arkan is talking about in the video we
2 saw which is what he also talking about in the meeting that you attended
3 in Belgrade with General Simovic, and what that was about was in fact, as
4 you described, removing JNA generals who were not thought, by you and
5 Arkan, to be sufficiently together and to be sufficiently willing to
6 deploy the JNA as a Serb army to take part in the creation of a Serbian
8 So isn't that how it was? You and Arkan shared this view, the
9 views he has just expressed?
10 A. First of all, I didn't say that Arkan and I shared political
11 opinions and it is clear from that text. Why are you misinterpreting
12 things now, given that we should both in favour of the truth? I said
13 that over 80 per cent of the matter had been resolved [Realtime
14 transcript read in error "resoft"] and Arkan said just the opposite. I
15 don't know when he said it. I wasn't there. He said that over 80
16 per cent of those officers had to be removed. So the whole matter is
17 exactly the opposite to the way you have just portrayed it. I never
18 heard Arkan say this. I was not there. I didn't even see this clip on
19 television, if it was ever aired at all.
20 Q. Well, you heard Arkan say this in Belgrade. True? Or words to
21 this effect?
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I noted the word "resoft" in the -- at the
24 page 48, line 12. I think it should be "resolved."
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: I would -- I would think that these kind of small
1 errors would be corrected automatically with the second reading of the
2 record, but okay.
3 Move on, Mr. Stringer.
4 MR. STRINGER:
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can we at least agree that you and Arkan both shared
6 the view that Communist generals of the JNA should be removed?
7 A. This has nothing whatsoever to do with each other.
8 Q. Let me just ask you separately. Independent of what we've seen
9 and of what we read in the article, just telling us today, isn't it true
10 that you and Arkan both advocated and supported removing the communist
11 generals from the JNA?
12 A. I expressed my political views and it was not my impression that
13 I was removing any generals. I believe that the politics pursued by
14 certain heads, not only generals, who were working from the perspective
15 of Communism was detrimental for the peoples of Yugoslavia including
16 Serbs. Arkan, on the other hand, had his own views and I never consulted
17 him on those, nor he ever shared his views with me.
18 Q. Let's go back now to Mr. Paroski.
19 MR. STRINGER: This is P240. The 65 ter is 4904.1. This is
20 video footage. We'll wait for the interpreters.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: And the tab number being, Mr. Stringer?
22 THE INTERPRETER: We are ready.
23 MR. STRINGER: Tab number is 448.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks --
25 MR. STRINGER: -- no, I apologise. 1052. 1052.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are ready to start.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "On this occasion I want to point
4 out one historical fact. Croats who live here came to your fields and to
5 your homes. Pavelic colonised them here because they were good butchers.
6 They still live here. The Hungarians here don't wish to be the same as
7 those in Backa because they primarily serve Tudjman. This is Serbian
8 land and they must realise that they are the intruders, and it will be
9 highway for them if it is not our way. They are perpetually trying to
10 put us down, to destroy our borders and our graveyards. Hungarians fear
11 to dig up medieval archeological finds because all they will find are
12 Serbs. This is the truth. Whoever tells you that this is his land is an
13 usurper, and you have the right to kill him like a dog because he has
14 come to a foreign land.
15 "Seselj: As far as we are concerned, Croats can leave Yugoslavia
16 whenever they please. But they will not take one foot of the Serbian
17 land with them. Not one foot that holds Serbian villages, destroyed
18 churches, Serbian death pits, death camps, Serbian Jasenovac. If we
19 allowed that, we would be unworthy of our glorious ancestors and we
20 should feel ashamed before our descendants. Croats are free to create
21 their own state but only west of the Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Virovitica
22 line. Anything east of that line belongs to Serbs. We will not
23 allow ..."
24 MR. STRINGER: That's -- that's enough.
25 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you know when this rally occurred, where?
1 A. I don't know when it occurred. However, I see that it was in
2 Jagodnjak, in a village in Baranja. I saw that on the clip.
3 Q. Were you present at this rally?
4 A. No, I wasn't.
5 Q. You told us that Mr. Paroski spoke in Vukovar in June of 1990 at
6 the rally there that you also spoke at; is that correct?
7 A. That was the first rally of the SDS. He was a guest. I don't
8 know who had invited him.
9 Q. And did he express the views that he's expressed here at this
10 rally in Jagodnjak?
11 A. Really, I don't remember his words. I was elected the president
12 of the committee. That was my first public appearance. I had stage
13 fright. I focussed on what I was going to say. So, honestly, I don't
14 remember what other people said on that occasion.
15 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, that language like that coming from
16 the SDS leadership could have a profoundly negative impact on the
17 listening audience? Perhaps inciting them --
18 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we see reference about the SDS
20 leadership mentioned in line 9 of this page, of the current page.
21 MR. STRINGER: I'm looking at page 50, line 25. The question:
22 "You told us that Mr. Paroski spoke in Vukovar in June of 1990 at
23 the rally there ... is that correct?"
24 The answer:
25 "That was the first rally of the SDS. He was a guest."
1 I will re-clarify or re-ask the question, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
3 MR. STRINGER:
4 Q. The question, Mr. Hadzic, then, is if Paroski or anyone speaking
5 at an SDS rally were to express the views that we've just heard, isn't it
6 likely that would have a profoundly strong impact and could in fact
7 incite the Serbian population to take action against non-Serbs in their
9 A. Mr. Paroski and I were not members of the same political party.
10 He was a member of some people's party in Serbia and he was a deputy in
11 Serbia; whereas Vojislav Seselj was a member of the Serbian Radical
12 Party. They both hailed from Serbia. They were not SDS members. Just
13 the contrary. They were its political opponents. I can't say anything
14 about their political views. I don't know about this rally in Jagodnjak.
15 I don't know who organised it. In any case, I was never invited to
16 attend it.
17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I believe we need to go into
18 private session.
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 10037-10039 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 MR. STRINGER:
7 Q. Mr. Hadzic, during your direct examination, you were shown a
8 couple of remarks made Mr. Zivota Panic concerning yourself and Arkan; do
9 you recall that?
10 A. I do.
11 MR. STRINGER: Could we have tab 459, please; Exhibit P01845.
12 Page 68 of the English. Page 62, 63 of the B/C/S.
13 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is the record of the SFRY Presidency held in
14 April of 1992, the 16th. Do you recall what Mr. Panic's position was at
15 that time?
16 A. I think that he was the commander of the 1st Military District,
17 but I'm not 100 per cent sure about it.
18 Q. We can go back to -- page 2 of this indicates that at that time
19 of this meeting he was the acting chief of the General Staff or chief of
20 the Main Staff of the JNA. Would you disagree with that?
21 A. I agree. I'm just a bit confused. I knew that he was appointed
22 the commander of the 1st Military District but I didn't know that he was
23 appointed commander.
24 Q. Now moving to page 68 of the English, I'll ask you just one or
25 two questions before the break.
1 Top of page 68, Mr. Hadzic, there's a reference here, and for the
2 record, this is Zivota Panic speaking. We can see that starting at
3 page 66. He's talking at page 67 and then on to 68.
4 He is saying that: Even today there are cases of people being
5 expelled by force from Lovas village and from Vukovar, attempts to do the
6 same with Ruthenians, Czechs, et cetera, but we put a stop to that in an
7 effective way in Ilok. However, Lovas is constantly being watched by
8 Jovic's Chetniks. They go there and frighten them.
9 My first question, Mr. Hadzic, is: Here Mr. -- Commander Panic
10 in Belgrade, chief of the Main Staff --
11 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It seems that B/C/S text doesn't match to the
12 English text.
13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if it's time for the break, I can
14 sort it out over the break.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: It's a little bit early, but -- oh. No. It is
16 exactly the time for the break. Sorry about that.
17 Court adjourned.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.
21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Mr. Hadzic, before the break, we were looking at P01845.
23 MR. STRINGER: And indeed the page of the B/C/S that we wanted is
24 page 62 of the document in B/C/S, which is -- ends with the ERN number
25 4965. And toward the bottom -- that's it. Thank you.
1 Q. Toward the bottom -- I should say the bottom third, Panic is
2 talking here about the expulsions in Lovas and that Lovas is constantly
3 being watched by Jovic's Chetniks, the White Eagles.
4 Now, Mr. Hadzic, Zivota Panic knew about this. It's your
5 evidence that you didn't know anything about Mr. Jovic's activities and
6 those of his White Eagles in Lovas during this period?
7 A. Yes, that's what I said, that I didn't know anything about it.
8 Q. Well, in April of 1992 when this is happening, it was possible
9 for you to go to this area, isn't it? You were able to move down through
10 Western Srem?
11 A. Yes, it was the Republic of Serbian Krajina at the time, and it
12 was all free.
13 Q. And then in the next paragraph, he says that we must have a
14 serious showdown with Arkan and the White Eagles. He says:
15 "Arkan is led by Hadzic."
16 Now, Mr. Hadzic, again, my question is, I think you've commented
17 on this already, why would -- if you know, why would Zivota Panic have
18 this mistaken view about you and Hadzic [sic]?
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
20 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we move to the next page of B/C/S? I
21 think that it corresponds to the English text on the screen.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
23 MR. STRINGER:
24 Q. The question was whether you know what would be the basis for the
25 chief of the JNA Main Staff to have a mistaken view about you and Arkan
1 in April of 1992.
2 A. I can just assume that Zivota Panic did not want to tell the
3 truth and that it was not all in keeping with the responsibilities of the
4 Yugoslav People's Army. Because he said that all units that were under
5 the JNA. And then about two months ago when I received the documents,
6 both from the Defence and the Prosecution, in order to prepare, there
7 were at least four places where Panic decisively said that anybody who
8 was there armed but not under the jurisdiction of the army will be thrown
9 out of Baranja and Western Srem. So if we carefully read the minutes of
10 the meeting that we are discussing, you can see who is issuing orders and
11 controlling the actions of Zeljko Raznjatovic and definitely that was not
12 Goran Hadzic.
13 Q. I'm not asking about that, Mr. Hadzic. I'm simply asking you,
14 I'm suggesting to you, in fact, that Zivota Panic's statement here is in
15 fact the accurate one. That you were led by -- that Arkan was led by you
16 and that you've brought Arkan with you as some sort of body-guard. In
17 fact, you were closely associated with Arkan during this period in early
18 1992 when you had become president of the RSK. Isn't that true?
19 A. That is not true. He is making that assumption and manipulating
20 with the fact that Arkan was there during our visit to Velepromet and
21 that he was leading the security in Velepromet. And that's why he wanted
22 to actually defend himself and say that he was led by Hadzic. I didn't
23 know what Arkan was doing, and I wasn't in charge of that at all.
24 Q. Well, in April of 1992, around the -- the date of this meeting,
25 in fact, as we have seen, you, Arkan and others were all together down in
1 Bijeljina in Bosnia-Herzegovina. That occurred about the same time as
2 this meeting. Isn't that true?
3 A. I don't know that date. I explained why I was in Bijeljina and
4 who had invited me. And Arkan was already there before I arrived. I was
5 invited by Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic so that we could agree on
6 some problems that we had regarding free passage from Serbia to Knin,
7 because the so-called corridor was problematic.
8 Q. And so it's like, then, the meeting you described in Belgrade
9 where General Simovic invited you to come to the meeting, and then when
10 you arrived, it turned out that Arkan was there as well. Is it sort of a
11 similar situation?
12 A. Obviously it was Simovic who had invited Arkan. Because Arkan
13 was already there with Biljana Plavsic. I heard later that he was in the
14 area for five, six, or ten days. I don't know exactly for how long.
15 Q. Okay. Let's clarify that. I was asking you -- I was referring
16 to the Belgrade meeting that you've talked about earlier in the fall of
17 1991. You said earlier today that General Simovic invited you to that
18 meeting and then when you arrived, it turned out that Arkan was there,
19 along with this gentleman Kum. Do you remember that?
20 A. I do, yes.
21 Q. Now, are you saying that it was General Simovic who also invited
22 you to attend the meeting in Bijeljina that Ms. Plavsic was present at?
23 A. No, no, I didn't say that. These are two completely different
24 things. It's only that you are trying to put them together. But,
25 actually, no, it's a -- it's a mistake.
1 Q. Actually, Mr. Hadzic, there may be indeed be a mistake. I'm just
2 looking at page 60, line 5, and what we're given is your words:
3 "Obviously it was Simovic who had invited Arkan. Because Arkan was
4 already there with Biljana Plavsic."
5 So the question -- my question is or should have been: Do you
6 know that in fact Simovic invited Arkan to the meeting at Bijeljina?
7 A. No, no. That's not that. I can see page 60, line 2, that
8 Simovic invited Arkan. I was thinking about the meeting in Belgrade in
9 1991. But this is a new sentence, where Arkan was
10 already with Biljana Plavsic in Bijeljina, but those two things are not
11 related. Perhaps I made a mistake and I didn't speak precisely enough,
12 but I think now it's clear.
13 Q. Who invited you to Bijeljina?
14 A. I came to there -- at the invitation of Fikret Abdic and
15 Biljana Plavsic or, actually, the former government secretary, Pejakovic
16 said that they were asking for me in Erdut. I wasn't in Knin. My chef
17 de cabinet was in Knin and passed on the message that they wanted me to
18 come to a meeting in Knin. I don't remember the time and the date
19 anymore. But Pejakovic wasn't the government secretary anymore but they
20 were looking for me there. They thought perhaps that I was there.
21 MR. STRINGER: Well, Mr. President, just for the record, and
22 maybe I should clarify this.
23 Q. Mr. Hadzic, again, just to be clear on this, at the bottom of
24 line -- top of 61, you said: "I was thinking about the meeting in
25 Belgrade in 1992 ..."
1 Just to clarify this, we've been talking about the Simovic-Arkan
2 meeting you were present with Kum. Is it correct that that occurred
3 sometime in the fall of 1991?
4 A. Yes, yes, that's correct. It should say 1991, not 1992.
5 Q. And then if I were to suggest to you that the Bijeljina meeting
6 in which you were present with Plavsic and Arkan and Fikret Abdic, that
7 occurred in approximately April of 1992?
8 A. April or May possibly. I'm not sure.
9 MR. STRINGER: Could we have, please, P01878, tab 531.
10 Q. Mr. Hadzic, while it's coming up, this is the Supreme Defence
11 Council of the FRY in July of 1992, about three months after the meeting,
12 the Presidency meeting we were just talking about. Zivota Panic present
13 there. And I would direct your attention to page 14 of the English,
14 16 of the B/C/S.
15 And here now in July of 1992, Panic is saying:
16 "Many things had been said about Arkan, measures had been taken.
17 However, you should look for Goran Hadzic to find out what Arkan is
18 doing; he keeps him around as a body-guard and he leads him."
19 And then in the next passage, Momir Bulatovic says essentially
20 that Arkan is getting stronger again:
21 "That means someone is behind these people."
22 The question now, Mr. Hadzic, is again here in July of 1992, it's
23 Zivota Panic who is correct, isn't it, that in fact if somebody wanted to
24 know where Arkan was and what he was doing, they just should find you
25 because Arkan was close to you as a body-guard?
1 A. Panic was defending himself. I explained that before, because
2 it's the same meeting perhaps or the one before. There were two
3 meetings. But he is saying the same thing in order to conceal his own
5 Q. And it's your view that he would be making these false statements
6 at a meeting of the Supreme Defence Council? This is not a public
7 statement. This is a private meeting of the Serbian -- or the FRY
8 Supreme Defence Council. So, in fact, this is a forum in which he would
9 be speaking freely and candidly. Isn't that true?
10 A. You have anticipated what I wanted to say, that this was no
11 debate. It was a very senior place where people who could make decisions
12 sat in order to deal with Arkan. That is why he avoided telling the
13 truth and avoided dealing with it. Because he continues to say - perhaps
14 in this text or the previous one - he said that Arkan is good, that he
15 carried out tasks, and that the people who sent him there should be
16 contacted to have him withdrawn. It has nothing to do with Goran Hadzic,
17 as you can see from the rest of the text.
18 MR. STRINGER: Could we have P1908, tab number 656. English
19 page 61, B/C/S page 52.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: This seems to be a confidential document,
22 Mr. Stringer. Should we go into private session or --
23 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session?
25 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
2 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 MR. STRINGER:
19 Q. On the 9th of July, and I'm looking at transcript page 9584,
20 Mr. Hadzic, you were asked about when you actually went to Dalj in early
21 August 1991, after it was taken by Serb forces. You said that:
22 "In the beginning of August, maybe seven or six days after the
23 1st of August, I came to Dalj ..."
24 And that's when you began to set up your office. Do you recall
1 A. I do.
2 Q. You were asked when did you first meet Radovan Stojicic, Badza.
3 And this is the same page of the transcript, 9584. You said:
4 "Quite soon after my move to Dalj while I was on those large
5 premises. Perhaps on the third day after I moved there, maybe the
6 seventh day, but it was, in any case, in the first half of August."
7 Is that your evidence?
8 A. Yes, I think I said it was up to mid-August at the latest.
9 Q. And he arrived at your office, introduced himself, and he said he
10 was a high-ranking official of the MUP Serbia and that he came to take
11 over the Territorial Defence.
12 A. Yes. He said that he was a senior official of the Serbian MUP
13 and that he was going to be the commander of the SBWS Territorial
15 Q. And that you also indicated last week, Mr. Hadzic, that Badza was
16 accompanied by two individuals, one named Zavisic and the other named
17 Bogunovic; do you recall that?
18 A. I do. I think later on I also said that Zika Trajkovic was there
19 as well. I saw him there for the first time. I knew Zavisic and
20 Bogunovic from the Danube because they used to be there.
21 Q. You had dealings with Zavisic and Bogunovic. When you say on the
22 Danube, this was when you and your TO commander Mr. Kojic were working to
23 bring volunteers across into the SBWS. Isn't -- isn't that how it was?
24 A. I don't recall having said that I ever organised volunteer
25 transport. I've never done that.
1 Q. You were present on the Serbia side of the Danube, and this is
2 when you encountered Zavisic and Bogunovic. Isn't it true that this was
3 related to either bringing personnel or equipment into the SBWS?
4 A. No. No, you misunderstood. Nebojsa Bogunovic was a Serb
5 policeman who was on duty and at the helm of a police group which was
6 permanently stationed at the Danube. No one could cross over without
7 their permission. Zavisic was his boss who came there every now and then
8 but it only had to do with civilians crossing. That is what they
9 controlled. I don't know anything about any equipment or volunteers.
10 Q. Okay. And then you have also indicated in your direct
11 examination that at the same time, the same meeting, Badza was
12 accompanied by Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. Is that your evidence?
13 A. Yes, it is, and that is true. Arkan was equipped the same way
14 they were. Only his uniform was different.
15 Q. And then just to continue on, I wanted to clarify this,
16 page 9588, you were asked about when Stojicic, Badza, and Arkan, and
17 their men were accommodated in Erdut.
18 And then in your direct evidence you were talking about when you
19 first went there and found accommodation for yourself. And then you
20 indicated that you'd spent a few nights there and then within about 15 or
21 20 days, Arkan and Badza showed up.
22 A. Yes, that is how it happened, more or less, as far as I recall.
23 Q. So just to clarify, is it your evidence that they came together -
24 this is Badza and Arkan - came together to meet you in Dalj in August
25 sometime, by mid-August, and that they also then came together when they
1 took over the training centre facility in Erdut?
2 A. The first part of your question is correct. They did coming
3 together. They showed up in Dalj. Badza introduced himself and
4 introduced his associates. I don't know, though, whether they arrived on
5 the same day. I wasn't in Erdut when they came. I wasn't in Erdut at
6 that moment. I don't know whether they came together or separately, but
7 I do know they were in contact there and that they were found
8 accommodation there at the same time.
9 MR. STRINGER: Okay. Could I please ask for 65 ter 4974.02E, and
10 we can put the -- perhaps we could run the video. This is from the
11 suspect interview. It's got a couple of points I wanted to ask
12 Mr. Hadzic about.
13 And, again, we don't need interpretation. I think we can just
14 led the video run. It may be necessary to turn up the -- the volume on
15 Mr. Hadzic's headset, however. I think this was one where it was kind of
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. STRINGER:
19 Q. Mr. Hadzic, is it true, as you indicated in your suspect
20 interview with Mr. Dzuro, that Stojicic's appearance at your government
21 sessions provided you and your government the opportunity to raise
22 civilian issues with him and to get assistance from him, as commander of
23 the TO, concerning communications, transport, permits for travelling,
24 et cetera. Did he provide this assistance to you as you've indicated?
25 A. Sometimes with regards to technical matters. But generally
1 speaking, we had that problem with the JNA.
2 Q. And, really, what's happening when Badza, Stojicic, comes to a
3 government session, a session of the SBWS government, is you're all
4 essentially acting within the parameters of the SFRY law as concerns
5 civilian authorities and the Territorial Defence.
6 I can give a more precise clarification. Let me put it to you
7 this way. In the SBWS during this period, in late 1991, you were wanting
8 to be a part of Yugoslavia and so you were essentially applying
9 Yugoslavia law, SFRY law in respect of the armed forces, the Law on Armed
10 Forces, the role of the TO, et cetera. Isn't that how it was?
11 A. You have to take into account that the government was still being
12 established. Throughout 1991, that government did not become fully
13 operational. Throughout the period we had one phone line, two cars, and
14 no resources. So we did want to be part of the SFRY, that is correct.
15 But I was not versed in matters of law and regulations, hence, I did not
16 tackle that issue per se.
17 Q. Well, you knew how the SFRY Law on Armed Forces operated in
18 general terms. You knew that Yugoslavia armed forces consisted of the
19 JNA, on one side, and the TO, the Territorial Defence, on the other. You
20 knew that; correct?
21 A. I knew that things were such in peacetime, but I also knew that
22 in war time it was all the JNA. I wasn't aware of any divisions. And I
23 think nothing was divided in that regard. The unity of command principle
24 was in place.
25 Q. And you knew that under the SFRY Law on Armed Forces, the TO
1 did -- I'll say the SBWS TO, did fall within the chain of command or was
2 subordinated to the JNA for its military operations. That's how it
3 worked under the law. Did you know that?
4 A. I did know that. But not only in military operations. For me,
5 it meant it was completely subordinated to the JNA in every respect, even
6 when there were military operations under way, as well as when there
7 weren't any.
8 Q. You know that under the SFRY law, there was a JNA and then there
9 were individual republican TOs; correct?
10 A. Yes. It was a matter of general knowledge. It was so before
12 Q. And then, of course, in Croatia, the situation was much more
13 complicated because the Croatian TO obviously was not going to be
14 participating in armed conflict against its own National Guard forces.
15 And so what happened was the SBWS TO actually then stepped into the role
16 of what would have been the republican TO under the Law on Armed Forces;
18 A. Well, I would not agree, since we are touching upon both a legal
19 and military matter. In the SBWS, the former Croatian TO structures were
20 not in place. It's not as if the Croats separated. It was just an
21 unorganised group of people that under the constitution had the
22 obligation to defend the constitutional order of that state, and this
23 went as far as to include chess clubs and sport clubs. At first they
24 were called local defence staffs for village defence, and later, it was
25 renamed, once Badza came as TO commander. However, it was still all
1 under the JNA.
2 Q. And the role that the SBWS TO played was essentially the role of
3 a republican TO.
4 A. No, it wasn't the case. No republican structures were left in
5 place including municipal ones. At least not in any organised way. I
6 just said that village staffs were set up that were completely
7 independent of each other in order to organise guard duty in villages to
8 defend them, and one cannot refer to it as the Croatian TO. We simply
9 took upon ourselves this constitutional obligation to defend our state
10 that was under attack and it was part of the SFRY.
11 Q. We may be misunderstanding each other, Mr. Hadzic. I'm not
12 asking you about the Croatian TO. And I know it's a complicated subject.
13 I'm asking you about the TO of the SBWS that was under the command of
14 Ilija Kojic and then, later, Radovan Stojicic. That body essentially
15 stepped into the shoes of a republican TO because in Croatia at the time,
16 it was absurd to even think about the concept of a Croatian TO that was
17 going to fight in order to uphold the constitution of the SFRY. Can we
18 agree on that?
19 A. As regards this part about Croatia, we can agree. But I cannot
20 comprehend it fully because the situation was not such in the field, at
21 least not in the Serbian part. We did not continue working on the basis
22 of the Croatian TO, which was then only to be found in
23 Croatian-controlled areas. We did not have a single body of that TO that
24 would have moved to our side. I don't know a single person who had been
25 employed by the Croatian TO who joined our side. I wasn't aware of any.
1 Q. No, and I'm not suggesting that there was. I'll move on. If we
2 could back to the video footage that we just saw of your interview with
3 Mr. Dzuro, perhaps you noticed, Mr. Hadzic, that in the video, you
4 indicated that Badza arrived, Stojicic arrived in September, as you say:
5 "As far as I can remember it can be somewhere around the 15th of
6 September, maybe before that."
7 Now, recognising that you've indicated here you weren't certain
8 of the date, you do put it, though, about a month earlier than what
9 you've told us in the trial just the other day. It seems quite a large
10 shift from what you said before to what you are saying now.
11 A. What I'm saying now is true. It was corroborated by some
12 witness, your witnesses, who said so themselves here. There, I was
13 wrong. I said September instead of August. So the question took me by
14 surprise and I didn't think carefully. I tried to link things as the
15 question came on and tried to remember when I was in Dalj, but I wasn't
16 in Dalj any longer in mid-September. He couldn't have come there at the
17 time. I was in Dalj in August. That is obvious. However, I obviously
18 made a mistake. I went off by a month when I provided my answer to
19 Mr. Dzuro.
20 Q. Also, Mr. Hadzic, here you haven't indicated at all that when he
21 did arrive, Stojicic was accompanied at that moment by
22 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan. And I'm going to put to you, sir, that the
23 reason didn't mention that, either here or anywhere else in your suspect
24 interview, is because they did not arrive together on that day in
25 August or September. In fact, they came separately and you met them both
1 at different times. Isn't that true?
2 A. That is not true. I think it can easily be proven.
3 Q. Now, just a little while ago you said, the bottom of page 67,
4 line 23, you don't know whether they came separately -- sorry, you don't
5 know whether they came together or separately. And this is in -- in
6 regard to the accommodation in Erdut. You said:
7 "I don't know whether they arrived on the same day. I wasn't in
8 Erdut when they came. I wasn't in Erdut at that moment. I don't know
9 whether they came together or separately, but I do know they were in
10 contact there and that they were found accommodation there at the same
12 Now, here I'd like to direct you to another part of your
13 interview with Mr. Dzuro.
14 MR. STRINGER: And this is tab 1083, 65 ter 0497 -- sorry.
15 04974.03. Perhaps we can just go with the transcript on this one. It's
16 page 86, 89. Actually, page 89.
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. STRINGER: Actually, maybe English 28 and B/C/S 22.
19 Tab 1084.
20 Q. Mr. Hadzic, what we're looking at in middle of the page of the
21 English, I think farther down to the bottom of the B/C/S, you're
22 mentioning Lastavica Dragomir stayed there, supplier of the kitchen. And
23 then you say:
24 "... and then Badza came totally independently from Arkan and he
25 took a whole floor because there was a building ... with two floors."
1 And then you go on to indicate when you arrived in Erdut as
2 opposed to Arkan and Badza.
3 So again, Mr. Hadzic, what we're seeing here is a significant
4 inconsistency with what you have said in this trial. Just a few minutes
5 ago, you weren't in Erdut. You weren't present. You don't if they came
6 together or separately. Although in the suspect interview in 2002, you
7 quite clearly indicate that they came totally -- that Badza came totally
8 independently from Arkan.
9 So do you remember it better today, Mr. Hadzic, than you did back
10 in 2002, or is it quite possible that what you said to Mr. Dzuro is
11 correct, they came independently?
12 A. I did not say even today that I remembered whether they came
13 together or separately. However, if they came separately, that was
14 within the space of one or two days. I was not in Erdut all the time. I
15 just spent the night and then I left. So after the first time I
16 returned, I saw that they were both there. I didn't see them arriving
17 either together or separately.
18 Now, whether I was more precise in my interview with the
19 investigator, I don't know. I'm not sure whether they came together or
20 separately because I did not see them arriving either together or
22 Could you please tell me the date of the interview that we saw
23 just a while ago, precisely this video-clip? What -- what's the date of
24 that interview?
25 Q. It would have been in early March 2002. It's part of the suspect
1 interview. I can give you the precise date if you want to look at that
2 portion again. I don't have it with me at the moment.
3 As you recall, Mr. Hadzic, the interview occurred over several
5 A. Yes, yes, I remember. However, all I need to know whether that
6 was before the break or after the break that we made.
7 Q. I'd like to take you to page 9589 of the transcript. Your
8 counsel was asking you about Arkan and Badza at the training centre
9 facility. And you said:
10 "During the day, they were not there. At least not by the time I
11 got up. But when I came at night to spend the night there, I saw them
12 sitting together because the stairs that I used to go upstairs to my room
13 overlooked that large mess room. I didn't spend nights there often, but
14 I did see them once or twice."
15 MR. STRINGER: If we could please have 65 ter 6254, which is
16 tab 1524.
17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you've seen this aerial before. It's been used
18 throughout the trial as an aerial image obviously from above of the area
19 of the government offices and the training centre. In looking at it, are
20 you able to orientate yourself?
21 A. No, I -- I'm not able to do that. I don't see the road. I can't
22 say where the main entrance is. There's nothing to tell me that.
23 Q. Are you able to indicate or to see what would have been the
24 location of your office?
25 A. I'm not even sure where the winery is, where the TO centre is, or
1 where the manor is. I really can't recognise any of those buildings. If
2 I were sure about just one of those buildings, then I would be able to
3 recognise the others as well and tell you what -- what happened or what
4 was going on in any of them.
5 MR. STRINGER: Could we have P01046. Tab 1652. It's possible
6 this came in in closed session, although I don't know that showing it
7 publicly would identify the witness.
8 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: [Microphone not activated]
10 MR. STRINGER: I don't know if it's possible to blow it up at all
11 so that we can see it a bit better.
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is one of the ones, a photo that one of the
13 witnesses marked on. And he's indicated that the area with the letter
14 A -- well, let me try it this way.
15 Do you see, Mr. Hadzic, toward the upper right, there's a section
16 that's got a circle around it that has an X covering it?
17 A. I can see that.
18 Q. And then moving down, there's another circle or half of that
19 circle that has a letter A in it; do you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Would it appear to you, sir, that that would correspond roughly
22 to the area of the training centre where Arkan was based?
23 A. It is possible, yes, it is.
24 Q. And then moving up and to the left, you see there's a letter G
25 that corresponds to a circle and also letter F -- F. Would that
1 correspond to the location of your office and the government offices of
2 the SBWS government?
3 A. Yes. If A denotes the TO centre, then G could be the manor, and
4 F could be the apartment where I slept.
5 Q. Can you tell us approximately how many metres it was between the
6 training centre and the apartment where you slept.
7 A. Around 150 metres.
8 Q. Now, in your testimony last week, you said that you saw "Badza
9 and Arkan sitting together because the stairs that I used to go upstairs
10 to my room overlooked that large mess room."
11 And I wonder whether you can describe for us the location of the
12 mess room that you referred to in your testimony.
13 MR. STRINGER: I don't know if it's possible for us to mark on
14 this, but if it is --
15 Q. Perhaps you could do it, Mr. Hadzic, if you're able.
16 A. I apologise. I don't remember that I used the word "mess room."
17 If that's how it was interpreted, then it's a mistake. It was
18 not a mess room because a mess room was in a separate building. It was
19 like a restaurant. When I said that I climbed those stairs and that I
20 saw them sitting together, they were sitting in a meeting room on the
21 ground floor of the building where bedrooms were. It was not a mess
22 room. It was a meeting room. It was a small room whose size was
23 approximately 3 by 5 metres. It was an open-plan room. There was no
24 partition wall between that room and the staircase, so as I walked up the
25 stairs, I could see them sitting together.
1 Q. Could you indicate for us with the pen, Mr. Hadzic, the -- the
2 stairs that you've just mentioned. The stairs -- where's the location of
3 the stairs that you would go up and see them? The staircase.
4 A. The TO centre was quite a large area that consisted of several
5 buildings. The building where I slept would be at the top of that circle
6 denoted by letter C. We can't see the building here, however, but it
7 would be somewhere here or thereabouts. At the very top. To the left.
8 The pen doesn't seem to be working properly. I did not mark
9 where I wanted to mark.
10 MR. STRINGER: I'm going ask if Mr. Hadzic can mark the location
11 he's just described. The building where he slept at the top of the
12 circle denoted by the letter C.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: It seems the pen doesn't work so we will have to
14 assist Mr. Hadzic.
15 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps with the ...
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The blue mark should be about
17 half a centimetre further towards the top of that circle.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 MR. STRINGER:
20 Q. Okay. Is it possible now with the same blue pen you could just
21 indicate how you would walk from your office in the government building
22 over to this location you've just marked where you slept?
23 A. You mean where I slept later or when I was in the centre?
24 Q. Right. When you were in the centre. We'll talk about the other
25 one later.
1 A. Well, the first bit would be the same. I had to pass by that
2 apartment. And this would be more or less the way I had to walk.
3 Q. And then when you said that you would see Arkan and Badza sitting
4 and talking, that was at the location down next to the letter A at the
6 A. No. The entire area encircled and denoted by the letter C is
7 very large. At least 100 metres by 100 metres. According to what I
8 remember, there were at least four buildings, and I saw them there only
9 once or perhaps twice. I did not see them there often. Perhaps I only
10 saw them once, actually.
11 Q. And just a moment ago you indicated -- you made a reference to
12 where you slept later. And just to be clear, what you've indicated for
13 us so far is the place where you would sleep at the beginning, during the
14 early period?
15 A. Yes. I indicated where I slept when I arrived there for the
16 first time in early September. There were some other ministers who also
17 slept there.
18 Q. And, again, this is the spot that you've marked that is sitting
19 next to the -- the red letter A?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then how long did you use that place to sleep?
22 A. I don't know for how long I stayed, but I arrived and slept there
23 on perhaps five or six occasions all together. Throughout the month of
24 October, I did not spend a single night in the territory, as far as I can
1 Q. And then in your testimony from last week, you said:
2 "But then I moved to a flat. I moved to a flat which was next to
3 the building that was used by the government for its sessions. It was a
4 manor building."
5 And so now is that a reference to a different place where you
6 would sleep when you stayed there?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you indicate with a letter X approximately the location for
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender that into evidence.
13 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3212.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
16 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, may we move into private session.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 10065-10067 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. This is as far as we go for the day.
4 Mr. Hadzic, you're still under oath.
5 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Madam Registrar, the document D127 should be
7 under seal.
8 And that's all for the day. Court adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.00 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of July,
11 2014, at 9.00 a.m.