Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10069

 1                           Tuesday, 22 July 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Good morning to everyone in and around the

 7     courtroom, and a special welcome to the Registrar.

 8             Could you call the case, please, Mr. Registrar.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

10             This is the case IT-04-75-T, The Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic.

11     Thank you.

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

13             May we have the appearances, please, starting with the

14     Prosecution.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  For

16     the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case Manager,

17     Thomas Laugel; and legal interns, Moritz von Normann and Sarah Munsch.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             For the Defence, Mr. Zivanovic.

20             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  For the Defence of

21     Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell, with legal intern,

22     Milan Jovancevic.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Stringer, please proceed.

25                           WITNESS:  GORAN HADZIC [Resumed

 


Page 10070

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]

 3        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.

 4        A.   Good morning.

 5        Q.   One thing from yesterday you'd inquired what was the date of your

 6     suspect interview when you had spoken about Badza, Radovan Stojicic, and

 7     we went back and looked and that was on the 2nd of March, 2002.

 8        A.   Thank you.

 9        Q.   Yesterday when we finished off, I was asking you some questions

10     about relations between Arkan and the TO of SBWS, particularly

11     Ilija Kojic; do you recall that?

12        A.   I do.

13             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, may we go into private session.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.

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15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

17     you.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

19             MR. STRINGER:

20        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we're going to shift gears a little bit now.  And I'd

21     ask if we could please see -- unfortunately, this is a document that's

22     confidential so we need to go briefly back into private session,

23     Mr. President.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session, please.  Private session,

25     please.  Yes.


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24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

 


Page 10080

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. STRINGER:

 3        Q.   I apologise for the interruption, Mr. Hadzic.  If you could

 4     please continue.

 5        A.   As I already told you, it was established for entire Croatia, for

 6     all the Serbs in the former Socialist Republic of Croatia.  Koncarevic

 7     and Petrovic proposed the establishment of a regional national council

 8     for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem and that body should have been

 9     part of the bigger, Babic's body.  However, later on, the two were

10     completely independent of each other.  The latter did not become a part

11     of Babic's council.  Babic was actually against its establishment.

12        Q.   And so when we talk now -- what I'm going to call the SNC, the

13     Serbian National Council, just so you know I'm only going to be asking

14     you about the SNC for the SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, okay?

15        A.   Yes, I understand.

16        Q.   You along with the two gentlemen whom you've just mentioned,

17     Koncarevic and Petrovic, you were a founding member of the SNC; correct?

18        A.   Not only the three of us, there were several of us.

19        Q.   And I think in your direct examination you said that initially

20     all of the members were not identified to protect their security.

21        A.   This is correct.  In Croatia, we would have been arrested, and as

22     things stood, we moved freely around Croatia.

23        Q.   And the SNC for your region, SBWS, was established on the

24     7th of January, 1991, a secret meeting was held in a place, a small place

25     called Sidski Banovci, I believe.  You attended.  And that's when the


Page 10081

 1     Serbian National Council was established; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, this was commonly known.

 3             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have 65 ter 1939.04.

 4             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Tab number, please.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Tab number is 743, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this document is entitled -- well, it is a

 8     communication or a proposal of the Serbian National Council

 9     Regional Board for SBWS.  It's directed to the president of the SFRY

10     Presidency, Mr. Jovic.  And at the end, at the bottom, it's dated

11     3rd of February, 1991.  So this would be about one month after the

12     establishment of the SNC.

13             Do you recognise this document, Mr. Hadzic?  Do you have --

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Were you involved in writing this or --

16             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

17             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we see the next page of this document.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  And while we're at it, Mr. Stringer, I'm afraid

19     that 743 is not the right tab number.

20             MR. STRINGER:  We think it is, Mr. President.  We've

21     double-checked.  743, 65 ter --

22             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry.  You're right.

23             MR. STRINGER:

24        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at this document now, Mr. Hadzic?

25     We can blow it up some more if you'd like.


Page 10082

 1        A.   I see that this is a letter of Ilija Petrovic to the Presidency.

 2        Q.   And as of 3rd of February, 1991, what was his position in the

 3     SNC?

 4        A.   He was appointed the spokesman from the time that the SNC was

 5     founded.

 6        Q.   And if I understand correctly, Mr. Hadzic, Mr. Petrovic came from

 7     Serbia, from Novi Sad; is that correct?

 8        A.   He was a post office employee in Novi Sad.

 9        Q.   Had he ever actually lived as a Serb in Croatia?  Had he lived in

10     Croatia previously?

11        A.   I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

12        Q.   When did you first meet Mr. Petrovic?  How did you know him?

13        A.   I don't remember.  I think it was at the founding assembly of the

14     Serbian Democratic Party in Novi Sad, at the Arena cinema in Novi Sad.

15        Q.   All right.  And approximately when would that have occurred?

16        A.   I think that this was in the summer of 1990.

17        Q.   So looking now at this document, Mr. Hadzic, 1939.04, you said --

18     I asked you if you recognised it.  You said no.  Do you recall whether

19     you had any involvement in the discussions that are referred to in this

20     document, things said when you first met with Petrovic and Koncarevic on

21     the 7th of January?  And we can go through the document.  Maybe that's

22     best.

23             In paragraph 1 at the top, it says, he says that all contested --

24     let me start with the beginning.

25             This is directed I think I said to Mr. Jovic with the aim of


Page 10083

 1     putting an end to conflicts that have lasted centuries between Croatian

 2     and Serbian people.

 3             And what's proposed, first of all, in number 1 is that contested

 4     and uncontested regions in the territory of the present

 5     Republic of Croatia be defined.

 6             And then in 1.1 he says that uncontested regions are those where

 7     Croatian statehood was established back in the middle ages and where the

 8     Serbian population has never constituted a majority.

 9             So I take it, Mr. Hadzic, do you know -- that would be a

10     reference to the parts of Croatia that Croatian Serbs would not lay any

11     claim to.  They would not contest those areas.  For example, Zagreb.

12     Zagreb would be an uncontested region, according to this; correct?

13        A.   I cannot really comment on it.  I never discussed the document,

14     and I didn't see it at the time.  I didn't even know that it was issued

15     or that Petrovic wrote to Jovic.

16        Q.   He goes on in 1.2 to talk then about what the contested regions.

17     And those are areas inhabited by the Serb population, since ancient

18     times.  And it goes on -- I'm not going -- we don't need to read it all.

19     It's based upon a number of historical developments.  And he says

20     according to this view, in addition to Kninska Krajina and the Serbian

21     municipalities Lika, Banja, Kordon, as well as other possible territories

22     relevant to the delineation of borders, the contested territories include

23     Baranja, Western Srem, from the Ilok-Lovas-Jameni line to the

24     Cepin-Trnjani line, and Slavonia from Cepin-Trnjani line to the Ilova

25     river and a point 10 kilometres west of Rogatica.


Page 10084

 1             Are these things that were discussed when you met with

 2     Mr. Petrovic and Koncarevic on 7th of January and formed this body?

 3        A.   No, we didn't discuss that and that topic was never something at

 4     the meetings which were infrequent, and after the 7th of January, we

 5     never met.  This was -- we never convened.  So this was not ever

 6     discussed, as far as I know.

 7        Q.   Well, subsequently, you actually became the president or the

 8     chairman of the SNC.  True?

 9        A.   I think that was in June, when I was elected by the full

10     composition of the National Assembly to form the government.

11        Q.   The document continues in paragraph 2 proposing suspension of the

12     authority of the Croatian Sabor in the contested regions.  And then it

13     goes on to say, "This jurisdiction would be in effect ...," talking about

14     placing these contested regions under the direct jurisdiction of the SFRY

15     Presidency and federal SUP.  It say:

16             "This jurisdiction would be in effect until precise criteria for

17     the delineation of borders between the Serbian and Croatian peoples are

18     determined, including the voluntary relocation of all interested Serbs,

19     Croats, and members of the different national minorities inhabiting these

20     regions across the line which would be established as the future border

21     between the Croatian national state and Yugoslavia.  Any other interested

22     citizens currently residing east or west of the border of the contested

23     territories as outlined here may avail themselves of the right to

24     voluntary relocation."

25             Now, Mr. Petrovic being the spokesperson of the SNC, Mr. Hadzic,


Page 10085

 1     I'm going to suggest to you that what is happening here is that he is

 2     articulating precisely what is the platform for the objective of the SNC

 3     which is to establish a line of separation between Croatian and Serbian

 4     people and then to facilitate population movement to create homogenous

 5     ethnic populations on either side of the line.  Was that the objective of

 6     the SNC?

 7        A.   No, that was not the goal.  What you believe is one thing, but

 8     that is not correct.  And this is what Ilija Petrovic was talking about.

 9     I had no idea about it, and I cannot even comment.  If I were a lawyer,

10     perhaps I could speak about the legal aspects of it; but I'm not, so I

11     cannot.

12             The Serbian National Council was formed in order to represent the

13     interests of the Serbian people because it was said that the Serbian

14     Democratic Party could not do that because not all Serbs were members

15     of the SDS.  So I was not -- I reluctantly agreed to attend meetings of

16     the SNC but this was not something that was ever discussed.

17        Q.   What you're saying here is that Mr. Petrovic's articulating his

18     own personal opinion or view as to what the SNC should be advocating?

19        A.   I can only assume so, because I don't know anything about it.

20     And this was not something that was discussed at any of the meetings.

21             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we tendered this into evidence.

22             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would object due to lack of foundation because

23     the witness testified that he doesn't know anything being the content of

24     this document.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, we would say that Mr. Hadzic has in


Page 10086

 1     fact agreed, identified Mr. Petrovic as the spokesperson of the SNC and

 2     has indicated that apparently the views expressed in this are those of

 3     Mr. Petrovic who was associated with Mr. Hadzic in the SNC.  And so we

 4     think that is a sufficient basis for admitting the document in terms of

 5     its showing or giving some indication of what the SNC is about at the

 6     time of its establishment in early 1991.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, this document is an extract from a

 9     book; right?

10             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  This comes from the Petrovic

11     book.  Other documents from it are already in evidence through the

12     witness, Mr. Nielson.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  The objection is sustained.

14             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 388, which is L0001.

15        Q.   And while it's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, this is the declaration on

16     sovereign autonomy of the Serb people of Slavonia, Baranja, and

17     Western Srem.  You were asked about this document in your direct

18     examination.  And at transcript page 9436, you said that you didn't have

19     anything to do with this.

20             Can we agree, Mr. Hadzic, that as is indicated here in the

21     original language version, the document's actually published in the

22     Official Gazette of the SBWS that came out at the end of 1991.  Do you

23     agree with me, it was actually published in the Gazette?

24        A.   I agree with that.

25        Q.   I'd like to direct your attention to Article 7.


Page 10087

 1             Mr. Hadzic, the document is talking about autonomy issues.  This

 2     is in Article 6.  Serbs asserting autonomy in respect of certain issues,

 3     Serbs in Croatia.  And then this in Article 7, it says that until the

 4     conditions for foundation and norm functioning of autonomy bodies are

 5     established, their duties will be carried out by the Serb National

 6     Council ... the national council has the right to declare null and void

 7     all legal documents which insult current constitution of Yugoslavia and

 8     sovereign autonomy of the Serb people in SBWS.

 9             The question here, Mr. Hadzic, is -- and I know you say you

10     didn't have any -- you don't associate yourself with this document.  Does

11     this give us an indication of what was envisaged for the SNC that it

12     would function as a sort of governmental body until such time as Serbs in

13     Croatia were able to organise themselves into more formal governmental

14     structures such as the assembly, the government, the ministries and other

15     things that came later?

16        A.   I said that I didn't know about that so I am really not able to

17     interpret any of this.  I didn't ever even think about this.

18        Q.   Well, you said that the Serb National Council, I believe you said

19     that it was created in order to exist outside of parties, that it was

20     intended to unite terms, I guess, of party affiliations.  Can we agree on

21     that as a basic element of the SNC?

22        A.   I understood that to be an institution that was supposed to

23     represent the interests of the people in the Serbian territory.  But I

24     didn't really go into any legal predictions or I wasn't really very

25     versed in these matters.


Page 10088

 1             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

 2             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I think -- I think that the translation is wrong.

 3     He said of the people -- of the Serbian people in the territory not the

 4     people in the Serbian territory.  Serbian people in the territory.

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could Mr. Hadzic confirm?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is what I said.  Yes, there

 7     was no Serbian territory.  Croats and Serbs were mixed in the territory

 8     of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.

 9             MR. STRINGER:

10        Q.   Since you say you didn't have anything to do with this,

11     Mr. Hadzic, would this have also come from Mr. Petrovic?

12        A.   I found out when I came here that this was written by a doctor of

13     legal sciences who was born in Nis.  But I don't know who wrote this.

14        Q.   Well, somehow, Mr. Hadzic, it found its way into the

15     Official Gazette of the SBWS, which a few months after this, you're its

16     prime minister.  Doesn't this in fact articulate again what was the

17     vision or the objective of the SNC at this stage as a body that would

18     take on governmental functions until the conditions for foundation and

19     normal functioning of autonomous bodies are established?

20        A.   Since I am accused of very serious matters here, of which I'm not

21     guilty, I would like to tell you most sincerely when the Serbian National

22     Council was established, I couldn't assume that a war would break out or

23     what would happen would happen.  What happened is there was a need for

24     somebody to represent Serbian interests.  I saw in Croatia that nobody

25     would come forward and represent the interests of the Serbs so I did that


Page 10089

 1     myself.  But I didn't even dream of the possibility that it would come to

 2     war.  Our party's position to which I belonged and Professor Raskovic

 3     belonged is that as many --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Hadzic please repeat the last part of

 5     the sentence.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you repeat the last part of your answer,

 7     Mr. Hadzic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was our position, the position

 9     of the party that I belonged to, and this is something that

10     Professor Raskovic repeated, to the extent that Croatia is in Yugoslavia

11     to the same extent Serbs would be in Croatia.  This was the starting

12     political position.  And for those reasons right up until the war I kept

13     in contact with Croatia in order to prevent its cessation and also to

14     prevent possible war.

15             MR. STRINGER:

16        Q.   You have been saying that SNC was established to represent the

17     interests of the Serbs.  Can you give me one concrete thing that it did

18     or that it wanted to do in order to represent Serbian interests?

19        A.   Just one thing.  I said in my previous answer to prevent any

20     possible conflicts, not to prevent war.  Because I didn't even -- it

21     didn't even occur to me that it would come to war.  But in the transcript

22     it says war.  I mean, I think I know English that well.

23             I would now just like to ask you to repeat your question because

24     I didn't hear it.

25        Q.   The question was:  You have been saying that the SNC was


Page 10090

 1     established to represent the interests of the Serbs.  Can you give me one

 2     concrete example of what it did or what it wanted to do in order to

 3     represent Serbian interests.

 4        A.   Well, since you're asking for an example, I think that there is

 5     actually just one, and that is that in the territory of Vojvodina we

 6     organised the receipt of refugees from Slavonia and Baranja in an

 7     organised manner.

 8        Q.   Didn't the SNC have territorial aspirations?  That is, it wished

 9     to identify parts of Croatia that would be autonomous Serbian areas and

10     to delineate those areas in a territorial way?

11        A.   This was never discussed at meetings.  I saw that when I came

12     here, in Ilija Petrovic's book, and that was the first time that I heard

13     of the geographic term "Moslavina."  To tell you the truth, I don't even

14     know today exactly where this territory is.

15        Q.   Could you say again the geographic term you just said.  The

16     interpreter -- or the court reporter would like to get it.  Now I'm

17     seeing Moslavina?

18        A.   Moslavina.  Yes, you are right.  Moslavina.

19             MR. STRINGER:  Could we move to Article 9 of this document.

20     Again, for the record, it is L0001, declaration on sovereign autonomy.

21        Q.   I'm asking about territorial aspirations because here we see that

22     in this declaration, it is purporting to extend autonomy through local

23     government to those municipalities and local communities where Serbs have

24     majority now or where they had majority in -- on April 6, 1941.

25             Now the reference to the 6th of April, 1941, this, Mr. Hadzic, is


Page 10091

 1     a reference to Croats who came from elsewhere during the Pavelic years in

 2     1941.  There is a talk about Croats who arrived from Herzegovina, down in

 3     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, who were settled during the Second World

 4     War period when Pavelic and the NDH existed.  Is that what this is a

 5     reference to?

 6        A.   I said that I don't know anything about this document but I do

 7     know about the 6th of April, unrelated to this document.  So I'm just

 8     going to say for the benefit of the Trial Chamber what happened on the

 9     6th of April.

10             On the 6th of April, Fascist Germany attacked the Kingdom of

11     Yugoslavia and World War II began in the whole of the former Yugoslavia

12     and also in the area where I was born.  From the 6th of April until the

13     liberation from Fascism, the Serbian people experienced genocide.  They

14     had almost a million victims in that war, along with the Jews, with the

15     Roma.  It was those three peoples who were the victims during the war in

16     that area.  Since I know what I am saying from other sources and on the

17     basis of other information and even though I'm not a lawyer, I did hear

18     that the consequences of genocide must be taken into account and no

19     rights can be acquired through consequences of genocide.  So the date of

20     April 6th when the Germans attacked has nothing to do with the formation

21     of the independent state of Croatia which was later.  But it has even

22     less to do with resettlement of population.  This happened after

23     April the 6th.

24        Q.   So according to this declaration on sovereign autonomy, then, I'm

25     going to put it you, Mr. Hadzic, the SNC, its goal was to restore


Page 10092

 1     Serbian -- well, let me say it this way:  To restore the demographic

 2     composition of those areas falling within its territory to that which

 3     existed prior to World War II, prior to the genocide against the Serbs

 4     and prior to the arrival of Croats from elsewhere; correct?

 5        A.   No, it is not.  That would have been impossible.  I was simply

 6     trying to provide an interpretation with regard to the date of

 7     6th of April.  I don't know what the true goal of this declaration was

 8     because, as I said already, I had no clue about it.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have 65 ter 1939.13, tab 752.

10        Q.   While that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, just one last question about

11     this previously document, the declaration on sovereign autonomy.

12     Transcript page 9436 in this trial, you said on your direct examination:

13             "I remember that declaration but I was made aware of it later.

14     In February, I didn't really attach any importance to it.  I didn't even

15     know what it represented.  I did not take part in it."

16             The question is:  When did you become aware of this sovereign

17     declaration on autonomy?

18        A.   I became aware of it later on.  I'm not sure whether it was

19     before I arrived here or only upon my arrival.  I do remember, however,

20     that when I provided my statement to the investigators in 2002,

21     Koncarevic Ilija came to see me, to ask me what happened.  I didn't even

22     realise he was aware of me talking to the investigators.  We talked about

23     it and he said, Well, you're not guilty.  You don't even have to answer

24     questions, you just have to say that you followed the declaration.  I

25     said, What declaration?  He said, The declaration on autonomy.  And I


Page 10093

 1     think that was the first I heard of it.  I had nothing to do with it.  I

 2     was unaware of it.

 3        Q.   In June of 1991, you were elected as the prime minister designate

 4     for SBWS, and in September, on 25th of 1991, you actually became the

 5     prime minister.  At no time did you become aware of this document or the

 6     fact that it was published in your own Gazette in December of 1991?

 7        A.   I don't remember that.  My obligations had to do with the

 8     Vance Plan at that time, and I don't remember anyone informing me about

 9     it.  I didn't pay much attention to it.

10        Q.   If we could now look at the document on the screen, Mr. Hadzic.

11             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, this is also from the Petrovic

12     book.  65 ter 1939.13.

13        Q.   Were you elected as the chairman of the SNC on the

14     17th of March, 1991, which is what's indicated here, Mr. Hadzic?

15        A.   No, I was not.  And I did not even attend any SNC meetings.

16        Q.   So you say you're not present at this meeting, or the session

17     that occurred on the 17th of March in Sid?

18        A.   I'm not even sure it took place.  But even if it did, I was not

19     present.

20        Q.   No one told you that you were now -- someone had decided that you

21     would be chairman of the SNC?

22        A.   No one told me.  They tried to talk me into accepting it as early

23     as the 7th of January, and I refused.

24             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have 65 ter 1D02959, which is tab 47.

25        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to put it to you that you're not being


Page 10094

 1     truthful about this, that in fact you did become chairman of the SNC at

 2     that time.

 3             This is an article from the 10th of April, 1991.  And in the

 4     English, starting about halfway down the first paragraph:

 5             "The conditions brought forward by the so-called

 6     Serbian National Council are well known to the public from before, and as

 7     almost all of them in the form of an ultimatum, it is hard to believe the

 8     possible talks would last shortly."

 9             Just -- this is from "Vecernje List," Mr. Hadzic.  This is a

10     Croatian publication; correct?

11        A.   I suppose so.  I don't know.

12        Q.   And then the article continues:

13             "Goran Hadzic, one of the leading SDS persons for SBWS, as well

14     as the president of the so-called Serbian National Council, also

15     announced that negotiations would last long."

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, may we zoom in the B/C/S text.

17             MR. STRINGER:

18        Q.   Let me know when you're ready to take a question, Mr. Hadzic.

19        A.   I don't know, what is the basis of your conclusion that I was

20     lying?  Based on what was published in a Croatian paper?  I was arrested

21     after this.  What was the date?

22        Q.   This is the 10th of April.  It is after Plitvice.

23        A.   Yes.  After that, I went to see Bojlkovac [phoen] and Degoricija

24     in Zagreb.  Had I been SNC president, I would have been arrested and left

25     there.


Page 10095

 1        Q.   It was publicly known that you were the president of the SNC as

 2     of 10th of April, 1991; correct?

 3        A.   I do not have that kind of information.  And I am not aware of

 4     that SNC decision if it met at all.  This is the first I hear of it, from

 5     you.  I guess someone must have made that decision without me know.

 6        Q.   Well, is it just a coincidence then that the people who are

 7     writing this article, they seem to know that you're president of the SNC

 8     as of April.  This is news to you?

 9        A.   Had that been true, I would have been arrested by Croatian

10     authorities.  The SNC was a para state organisation which was not allowed

11     under the Croatian constitution.

12        Q.   Well, in fact, Mr. President [sic], you were arrested by Croatian

13     authorities, weren't you, on the 31st of March, in Plitvice?

14        A.   Are you saying that I was arrested because I was a member of the

15     SNC?  I think I explained that and that everyone knows about it.  I was

16     arrested by mistake and I was not arrested for that reason.

17        Q.   Well, let's talk about that.

18             We just looked at 1939.13 which is from the Petrovic book, a

19     document indicating that you been elected chairman of the SNC, and I

20     understand that you don't accept that.  But about two weeks after that,

21     then, you find yourself in Obrovac at a SDS meeting, on the

22     31st of March; correct?

23        A.   The interpretation I received was that happened two weeks later.

24     But in my understanding, it was two weeks before that.

25        Q.   I'm saying two weeks from the 17th of March, approximately.


Page 10096

 1        A.   I'm sorry, I thought you had the 10th of April in mind.  I

 2     apologise.  Yes.

 3        Q.   You and Mr. Savic travelled down there.  And in your direct

 4     testimony at page 9385, you said that what happened at Plitvice was

 5     completely by chance?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have P00071.50, which is tab 151.

 8        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is a report from the media dated

 9     29th of March, 1991, at Plitvice.  It refers to the co-ordination

10     commission of the Executive Council of Titova Korenica municipality

11     implementing the decision on transforming Plitvice Lakes National Park

12     into the Krajina public enterprise.  It continues both administrative

13     buildings of the national park were taken over with the help of Knin

14     policemen.  The commission handed in dismissal noticed to the following

15     five members of the board.  Although the hotels in the park are open,

16     guests are not coming.  It has been learned that 80 per cent of

17     reservations have been cancelled.

18             Mr. Hadzic, what's being referred to here is that Milan Martic

19     and police of the Knin Krajina Autonomous District had, on the

20     29th of March, actually taken over the Plitvice National Park area;

21     correct?  That did happen on the 29th.

22        A.   I don't know anything about that, but that's what one can read in

23     the text.

24        Q.   And in fact it's a well-known national park, popular with

25     tourists.  But a lot of the tourists knew about what had happened there


Page 10097

 1     because they were cancelling their reservations, and they weren't going

 2     to Plitvice.

 3             Did you in fact know in advance when you went to the SDS meeting

 4     in Obrovac that Martic had taken over the Plitvice National Parks area

 5     and it was not just a coincidence that you went there on the 31st of

 6     March?

 7             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it is compound question.  He could not --

 8     if he could be -- could be divided in two.

 9             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Could you break it down, Mr. Stringer.

10             MR. STRINGER:

11        Q.   Did you in advance -- when you went to the SDS meeting in

12     Obrovac -- did you learn when you were in Obrovac that Martic and his

13     people had taken over Plitvice National Park?

14        A.   Since I am testifying under oath, I cannot tell you precisely.

15     It is possible that I heard about it at the meeting, although I am not

16     sure.  I did not pay much attention to it.  It had nothing to do with me

17     or with Slavonia and Baranja.

18        Q.   Well, this in fact was a tremendous event wasn't it?  Martic and

19     the police of the SAO Krajina actually taking over control -- setting up

20     barricades at Plitvice.  I put it to you, sir, that you would not have

21     known about it when you were attending the SDS meeting in Obrovac which

22     was itself in the SAO Krajina?

23        A.   All you said was a presumption.  At the meeting in Obrovac there

24     were only SDS members.  Martic was not a SDS member.  I arrived at the

25     meeting as asked to do by the Croatian police to be -- to take up a


Page 10098

 1     position which ran counter to Martic's position in political terms.  I

 2     explained that, and I enumerated the people I talked to before my travel

 3     to Obrovac.

 4        Q.   And so it was just a coincidence, then, that you found yourself

 5     at Plitvice two days after it was taken over by Martic and the

 6     SAO Krajina?

 7        A.   I really can't believe that you think it was not a coincidence.

 8     Even Borivoje Savic testified to that effect, although he said many other

 9     things that were gibberish.  But he also confirmed that it was a

10     coincidence.  In addition to us being there, there were another 2 to 300

11     tourists.  There were two busloads of Italian tourists, double-deckers.

12             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have tab 152, which is P00020.

13             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, I see a stamp in the left corner,

14     left upper corner.

15             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  It was initially provided

16     under Rule 54 bis.  It was subsequently released for public use.

17             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

18             MR. STRINGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this comes from the Serbian government.  It was an

20     analysis that was prepared of the operations, the events that took place

21     at Plitvice on the 31st of March, 1991.

22             Under paragraph number 1, "Causes of the conflict," it talks

23     first about events, developments that occurred on the Croatian side,

24     which we've heard about a lot in the -- in the trial, Croatia's new

25     constitution, arms imports, cessation from Yugoslavia, all of that.


Page 10099

 1             And then in the next paragraph, it says:

 2             "The immediate reason for the armed clash in Plitvice was the

 3     decision of the Titova Korenica municipality to declare the... lakes a

 4     publicly owned enterprise of the so-called SAO Krajina, demonstrating its

 5     readiness to defend the area even if that meant... armed conflict."

 6             Mr. Hadzic, is it your testimony that when you were attending the

 7     SDS meeting in Obrovac, you were not aware of these events, the

 8     declaration on making Plitvice part of the SAO Krajina?

 9        A.   I can only repeat what I've said already.  I am not certain I had

10     heard about it.  I'm testifying under oath.  I don't think anyone

11     discussed it or mentioned it.

12             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please move to page 4 of the English.

13     It's item number 6.  I don't have the B/C/S page reference, but it's item

14     number 6.

15        Q.   Item number 6 is propaganda support for the armed incident:

16     Number 1, Croatian leadership; and number 2, Serbian National Council of

17     the SAO Krajina.  Now, again, Mr. Hadzic, just so we're clear, this is a

18     different SNC.  This is not the one that we've been talking about for

19     SBWS.  Reference here, right, is to the other one for Krajina?

20        A.   Yes, I understand that.

21        Q.   And in the third paragraph there that begins, "On

22     30 March, 1991 ...," it's talking about events and the leadup to the

23     conflict on the 31st.  Croatia issues an ultimatum, makes it clear MUP

24     forces will intervene if the SAO Krajina forces does not withdraw.  And

25     then it continues:

 


Page 10100

 1             "The SAO Krajina leadership learned that MUP forces were

 2     preparing to intervene on 29 March ... and mobilise the reserve public

 3     [sic] forces in Knin, Donji Lapac, Srb and Gracac, Titova Korenica and

 4     elsewhere, and launched a broad propaganda campaign to prepare volunteers

 5     for the defence, and on 30 March, 1991, the complete reserve police force

 6     and all civilians with a fire-arm were mobilised."

 7             It's the 30th of March.  Were you not aware of this when you

 8     arrived in Obrovac and attended the SDS meeting?

 9        A.   For the fifth time today, I say I was not aware of it.  I was not

10     aware of those details.  I see them now for the first time, and I did not

11     get involved in it.  I simply did not have information.

12             After the meeting, a security officer of Martic's police from the

13     SAO Krajina tried to interrogate us.  That is why my colleague and I did

14     not even want to stay in Obrovac but we wanted to go as close to Zagreb

15     as possible to spend the night.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 1577, D00116.

17     Mr. President, it's a confidential document so we'd need to go into

18     private session.

19             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Private session please.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 10101

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 10101-10113 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

 


Page 10114

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, the tab number, 229, you said?

 9             MR. STRINGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  But the -- the exhibit number I have on -- on

11     your list for tab 229 is not the one you mentioned here on the record,

12     but what is the nature of the document?

13             MR. STRINGER:  It is a publication called "Pobjeda" dated 20 of

14     September.  It is 65 ter 310.  And --

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'm sorry, I'm in the wrong list.  229.  Yeah.

16     It's okay.  Sorry about that, Mr. Stringer.

17             MR. STRINGER:  We have a list of lists, actually, which shows how

18     easy it is to get lost in the lists and the documents.

19        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is jumping ahead until the

20     20th of September, 1991, and you commented on this during your direct

21     examination.  I'd just like to bring you back to it for a couple of

22     questions.

23             The third paragraph mentions Ilija Petrovic, and this now being

24     September 1991, I know it's not quite the 25th of September, which is the

25     big day, but here this is indicating Mr. Petrovic is the information

 


Page 10115

 1     minister in Hadzic's government.  And here the article notes that he

 2     recalled the proposal of the Serbian National Council of these districts

 3     was to establish the contentious western borders along the

 4     Ilova-Virovitica stretch if necessary by moving the Serbian and Croatian

 5     populations.

 6             Now since he is a member of your government, Mr. Hadzic, isn't he

 7     in fact articulating the policy of the government of SBWS in regard to

 8     the establishment of this territory, this western border and, if

 9     necessary, movement of Serbian and Croatian populations?  Wasn't that, by

10     now, government policy?

11        A.   No.  Our government never discussed that.  This is

12     Ilija Petrovic's talking about his own views on some Serb territories.

13     Our government did not have any jurisdiction in that area, and it never

14     discussed this.  This is at the extreme western end of Western Slavonia.

15        Q.   You never removed him.  I haven't seen anything indicating you

16     criticised him or retreated from what he is saying publicly as your

17     information minister.  So what did you do to correct what he is saying

18     here, if it's in fact a misstatement?

19        A.   He was talking about his own opinions.  He did have a portfolio

20     at the time even though the government was not established yet.  It was

21     not my government.  I was not the prime minister designate.  We were all

22     equal, and they were under the jurisdiction of the assembly.  So I was

23     watching over what they were saying and I would quickly move to correct

24     what they were saying.  Ilija Petrovic was talking about territories that

25     were 200 kilometres away from the territory that we were responsible for.


Page 10116

 1     I don't even remember that he was saying these things.

 2        Q.   This is the 20th of September --

 3             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it is line 25, page 46, it reads, "I was

 4     not the prime minister designate."  I don't think that the witness said

 5     it.

 6             MR. STRINGER:  I can clarify that, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

 8             MR. STRINGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, in terms of your position during this period of time,

10     is it correct that in June of 1991 you became the prime minister

11     designate?  You didn't actually take up the post of prime minister until

12     the 25th of September, however; is that correct?

13        A.   That is correct.  But it's not -- I just said that I was not the

14     caretaker of any minister.  They were all independent, they had their own

15     portfolios, and they were all free to give any statements that they

16     wanted.  I couldn't stand behind each one of them and control them.

17     That was not my job.  So when I said this that is stated in the

18     transcript, prime minister designate, what I meant to say was that I was

19     not their caretaker, but I was the prime minister designate, and I was

20     given that position which I took up on the 25th of September; that is

21     correct.

22        Q.   You selected Mr. Petrovic and put him forward to be the

23     information minister of your government; isn't that correct?

24        A.   In the formal sense, yes.  But it was not my independent

25     decision.  It was also a result of the proposal of the rest of those who


Page 10117

 1     were at the meeting, the president of the assembly, Koncarevic, and some

 2     others with whom we agreed about -- but the Assembly of Slavonia,

 3     Baranja, and Western Srem was the one that made its decision on their

 4     appointment.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please move back to a document we've

 6     looked at already, which is 65 ter 1939.04, which is tab 743.  And to go

 7     to -- well, we can start at the bottom of page 1 of the document again.

 8     This is the end of paragraph 1 of the document itself.

 9        Q.   In this document - we looked at this earlier - this SNC document,

10     that's referring to, at the bottom of page 1, the contested regions,

11     possible territories relevant to the delineation of borders saying what

12     the contested territories are.  And here we see at the top of page 2 of

13     the English, which is the last sentence of paragraph 1 of the B/C/S

14     version, it's referring to this Ilok-Lovas-Jamena line, Cepin-Trnjani

15     line, and Slavonia, Cepin-Trnjani line to the Ilova river, and a point

16     10 kilometres west of Rogatica.

17             Now it's no coincidence, Mr. Hadzic, isn't it, that now your

18     minister of information is going public with essentially the same western

19     border proposed by the Serbian National Council, which is set out in the

20     February document here, 1939.04.  Only it's not just the

21     Serbian National Council now, Mr. Petrovic.  It's Mr. Petrovic in his

22     capacity as minister of information who is advocating and setting out the

23     position of your government on the establishment of this western border.

24     Isn't that true?

25        A.   Of course, not.  It's not a coincidence.  If you look carefully


Page 10118

 1     below this letter to President Jovic is the signature of Ilija Petrovic.

 2     And in the journalist's article, it's also Ilija Petrovic.  So he is

 3     providing his opinion in this document and in the other document.  In

 4     both documents, he is speaking on his on behalf.

 5        Q.   Well, I'm putting to you, sir, that in fact what he is doing is

 6     he is articulating the position of your government.  He is one of your

 7     ministers.  You selected him and put him forward into this position.  And

 8     you did that because he shared your view and was going to carry out and

 9     advocate the policy of your government; correct?

10             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, it is again a compound question.  And if

11     it could be divided.

12             MR. STRINGER:  I'll do that, Mr. President.  Apologies.

13        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, isn't he articulating the position of your government

14     here, not his own personal view?

15        A.   No.  Because at the time the government had not convened yet, and

16     this was not discussed.  We did not discuss this matter at our government

17     meeting.

18        Q.   So if Croats out in the western part of these areas,

19     Eastern Slavonia, are reading this and are concluding that in fact your

20     government and the SAO SBWS has designs on taking that territory, they

21     would have been mistaken because only they're reading the opinion of one

22     person and not your policy?

23             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

24             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I object.  It calls for speculation.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  I'll allow it, Mr. Stringer.


Page 10119

 1             MR. STRINGER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, the question was essentially the effect of this on a

 3     reader who is a Croat who lives out in the western part of

 4     Eastern Slavonia who is now reading these words, you're saying that

 5     they're just reading the opinion of one person and not the policy of your

 6     government?

 7        A.   Yes.  I don't know how anybody would think about that.  I didn't

 8     really pay any attention to that.

 9        Q.   Well, you're the president of the government, Mr. Hadzic.  Isn't

10     it your job to pay attention to that?  I mean, these are people.  They

11     might not be Serbs but they are people who happen to live within the

12     borders that your government is claiming for itself.  Don't you have any

13     obligation to think about them?

14        A.   Of course I do.  But I didn't feel that they were jeopardised in

15     any way by Mr. Petrovic's positions.  That's were his personal positions

16     and he never referred to them in government.  The government didn't

17     discuss them.  That government didn't exist at the time.  The government

18     didn't exist throughout that whole 1991 period.  In the sense that it

19     would have been able to do anything.  It was just formed, and it existed

20     in a formal way.

21        Q.   Well, in fact, Mr. Hadzic, the government, your government, did

22     two things quite well during this period.  One was to make public

23     statements about the objectives of your government; and the other thing

24     it did quite well was to pass laws.  And we're going to be talking about

25     that shortly.


Page 10120

 1             But isn't it true that you and other members of your government

 2     made public statements and passed laws during 1991?

 3        A.   I did give public statements.  The government adopted laws and

 4     was preparing for the eventual peace and for us to be able to remain as a

 5     region within Yugoslavia because at the time we didn't have any military

 6     or any other power to be able to implement those laws.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Could we have tab 1034.  This is video.  P00040.

 8     And we'll wait for the interpreters to let us know when they've got it.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  We're ready.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter:  The issue of western

12     borders of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is open.  This was said by

13     the president of the government of these regions, Goran Hadzic, in his

14     talks with journalists in the Belgrade international press centre.  On

15     this occasion, he reminded about the proposal of the Serbian National

16     Council of these areas to, if need be, establish this border with the

17     help of moving Croatian and Serb population in the broader area.

18             "Serb Autonomous Region of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem is

19     no longer in Croatia.  The issue of western borders is open and the

20     government of this Serb autonomous region advocates a democratic way of

21     solving this and by respecting the will of the people.  Goran Hadzic,

22     president of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, told this to local and

23     foreign journalists in the international press centre in Belgrade.

24     Information Minister Ilija Petrovic reminded the borders according to the

25     London contract are Ilova-Moslavina-Virovitica, and then also at the


Page 10121

 1     proposal of the national council ..."

 2             MR. STRINGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, we've stopped it there just briefly.  Can you

 4     identify the two gentlemen that we're seeing on the screen?

 5        A.   Ilija Petrovic is on the left side with beard, and to the right,

 6     is Slavko Dokmanovic.

 7             MR. STRINGER:  We'll continue.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter: ... that the Croatian

10     state assess whether one of the solutions would be moving of Serb and

11     Croatian population.  When asked by the journalists whether the tanks

12     have been summoned from Belgrade, Goran Hadzic replied:  'The tanks

13     belong to the JNA and I can tell that you within the borders of the

14     present Republic of Croatia, JNA is if not in greater peril, than equally

15     perilled as the Serb people living in it.  They go there to liberate

16     their colleagues, soldiers."  When asked several times about who was

17     invited to return to these region, Hadzic expressed the wish for return

18     not only of Serbs but of native Croats as well.  Serb people did not

19     endure genocide by the native Croats but by the colonists Ante Pavelic

20     brought to Western Herzegovina, Croatian Zagorje and Imotsko.  They were

21     the first ones to raise arms and mine Serb houses.  In order to establish

22     a normal life, we will have to present them with a return ticket.  Hadzic

23     also said Serbia should take care of women and children refugees and not

24     of able-bodied men.  Stating the data on SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and

25     Western Srem, Goran Hadzic stressed that there were 150.000 inhabitants


Page 10122

 1     living there and that its capital is Vukovar, which had not been

 2     liberated yet, but this did not mean it would not be.  Goran Hadzic

 3     replied to the TAS reporter that his government offered 20 imprisoned

 4     guards to Croatian authorities in exchange for two missing Soviet

 5     journalists.  'Unfortunately,' Hadzic said, 'our government does not know

 6     where they are.'"

 7             MR. STRINGER:

 8        Q.   Mr. Hadzic we'll start with this and work backwards and perhaps

 9     we could -- if the transcript is not on the screen we could put it on the

10     screen so that we can refer to it.

11             You actually testified about this in your direct examination, I

12     believe, with regard to the 20 imprisoned guards that you commented on

13     here.  Do you recall talking about that?

14        A.   Yes.  And I heard it again just now.

15        Q.   And just to recap my understanding of your evidence, your

16     testimony on that, is that prisoners, Croatian prisoners or non-Serb

17     prisoners, in SBWS territory would not have been your responsibility but

18     were in fact the responsibility of the JNA.  Is that a fair statement?

19        A.   I said that, and that was how it was.

20        Q.   It was your government's position that Vukovar was to be the

21     capital of the SBWS.  True?

22        A.   Yes.  That Vukovar should be the capital.

23        Q.   Do you recall offhand what was the ethnic composition of Vukovar

24     prior to the conflict?  Was it roughly 36 per cent Serbs?

25        A.   In the last census before the war, it was 36 per cent of Serbs


Page 10123

 1     formally but there was a large number of Yugoslavs or those who declared

 2     themselves so but they were Serbs.  So that means that the percentage of

 3     Serbs was 50 per cent, perhaps even higher when you include those

 4     Yugoslavs who wished to remain in Yugoslavia.  And this is important

 5     because they did declare themselves as Yugoslavs.

 6        Q.   Well, we'll probably talk about this more later.  In the census

 7     in the former Yugoslavia people could decide how to declare themselves

 8     Yugoslav, Serb, Croat, Hungarian; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So for you to get to 50 per cent of Vukovar being comprised of

11     Serbs then, you're assuming that all of the people who declared

12     themselves to be Yugoslavs were in fact of Serbian ethnicity.  But you

13     don't really know that, do you?

14        A.   No, I'm not saying that.  I simply wanted to answer your

15     question, but I didn't really think about that much.  I didn't deal with

16     that much.

17        Q.   Well, does that mean that in fact it's not correct, or you

18     misspoke when you said that a large number of Yugoslavs or those who

19     declared themselves so were Serbs and so that it made the percentage of

20     Serbs in Vukovar 50 per cent.

21             I mean, the fact is you don't really know, do you?

22        A.   I cannot be correct or precise to the 1 per cent.  But it's a

23     fact that most of those who declared themselves as Yugoslav and those who

24     I know were Serbs or were from mixed marriages, and with one part -- one

25     parent, the mother or the father, being a Serb.


Page 10124

 1        Q.   And on page 1 of the English, it's the second full paragraph of

 2     the transcript here of this video, again, the -- and I know it's the

 3     reporter speaking, but the reporter in this video footage from this press

 4     conference in Belgrade is again attributing to Mr. Petrovic statements

 5     about the establishment of borders according to the London contract along

 6     this Ilova-Moslavina-Virovitica line.

 7             So, again, what we're seeing, since he is seated next to you at

 8     the table in Belgrade at the international press centre on television, is

 9     that he is expressing not just his personal opinion but, in fact, the

10     position of the SBWS government; correct?

11        A.   What I know from all of this is only that London is the capital

12     of Great Britain.  As for who signed this contract and how this came

13     about, I don't know that.

14        Q.   Okay.  Setting aside the London contract, I'm simply asking you

15     here in -- when the report is that at this press conference in Belgrade,

16     Petrovic is reminding of the borders being Ilova-Moslavina-Virovitica,

17     what he is doing there is setting out the position of your government as

18     to what the western border of SBWS should be.  It's not his personal

19     opinion; correct?

20        A.   Your Honours, for the fifth or sixth time, I say that this was

21     not a policy of the SBWS government.  We did not discuss that.

22     Ilija Petrovic expressed his view of the London treaty on some historical

23     matters that I was unaware of.  I didn't know about them.  I don't even

24     know what the London treaty was about and whether it was signed before

25     World War I or World War II, or after.  I really don't know.


Page 10125

 1        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, do you accept no responsibility for the public

 2     statements that are being made in your presence by members of your

 3     government?

 4        A.   As far as I recall, it was before the government was established

 5     and before the appointment of ministers.  The government never discussed

 6     matters concerning Western Slavonia, at least not to my recollection.

 7        Q.   Well, if you knew that this was Mr. Petrovic's personal opinion,

 8     his personal view, that from what we've seen now as being expressed

 9     repeatedly, going back to February and the letter to President Jovic, you

10     must have shared that view by inviting him and accepting him into your

11     government five days later.  True?

12        A.   As for the February letter, I didn't even know about it, the one

13     he send to President Jovic.  I wasn't notified of it.  I didn't know

14     about it and I only learned about it from his book.

15        Q.   And as we see again, it's also the position of the SBWS

16     government that the establishment of this border is going to be

17     accompanied by population exchanges.  And if it wasn't to be a policy of

18     the SBWS government, then, in fact, you would not have accepted

19     Mr. Petrovic into your government.  True?

20        A.   The SBWS government discussed the issue of five municipalities:

21     The former municipality of Osijek with its seat in Dalj and Tenja; the

22     former Vinkovci municipality with its seat in Vinkovci; and the

23     municipality of Vukovar, its entire territory; as well as the

24     municipality of Beli Manastir.  We never discussed Moslavina, Virovitica

25     or any of the things that I can see before me now.  I understood it to be


Page 10126

 1     some of Petrovic's gibberish since he was not a historian but always said

 2     that he was versed in history and often referred to the London treaties

 3     and such things.  But it was not a topic of discussion amongst us.  I

 4     really had no clue about the concept of the London treaty.  I didn't know

 5     when it was signed and what it was about.

 6             As for the territory of Virovitica and Moslavina, as I said, I

 7     think it is some 200 to 250 kilometres away.  So if you go through the

 8     entire Western Slavonia and go to its far end closest to Zagreb, that's

 9     how far it was and it was not at all within our jurisdiction.

10        Q.   What Mr. Petrovic is talking about here is a line that is quite

11     similar to the line that's always or often associated with the position

12     expressed by Mr. Seselj; correct?

13        A.   You know that as well as I do.  Mr. Petrovic is still living.

14     Thank God.  So why do I need to provide answers about something he said

15     and particularly because I wasn't aware of it.  These were his personal

16     views.

17        Q.   Well, I'm not going to argue with you, but you were aware of if

18     because he is saying it publicly in a press at a televised press

19     conference where he's seated to your right.  So in fact you knew quite

20     well what his personal views were, if in fact they were his personal

21     views?

22        A.   I understood it as his personal views, private matter, that he

23     mentioned at the press conference.  He also sent that letter without

24     anyone's knowledge.  He sent letters throughout the former Yugoslavia and

25     all over the world without anyone knowing.


Page 10127

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please continue, Mr. Stringer.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could go back now

 5     to the actual video itself, P00040, just a couple of last questions to

 6     finish it off, and we don't actually even need the audio.  I just want to

 7     ask Mr. Hadzic about a couple of the other people present.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. STRINGER:

10        Q.   Just for the record, Mr. Hadzic, again, if you could indicate who

11     we're seeing on the left and then second from the left.  Who are these

12     two gentlemen?

13        A.   Ilija Petrovic and Slavko Dokmanovic.

14             MR. STRINGER:  And then if we could just let it run.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. STRINGER:

17        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, can you identify the gentleman who is seated to your

18     left?

19        A.   It is an employee of the international press centre and an

20     interpreter from Belgrade.

21        Q.   Thank you.  And one last item on this.

22             MR. STRINGER:  If we could please have 65 ter 4872.2.  And,

23     Mr. President, there is no tab for this because it comes from the video.

24     You'll -- you'll see in a moment.

25        Q.   So, Mr. Hadzic, just for the record if could you tell us who are


Page 10128

 1     these two gentlemen and then I'm going to tender this photograph into

 2     evidence.

 3        A.   From left to right, Ilija Petrovic and Slavko Dokmanovic.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. STRINGER:  We tendered that, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Admitted and marked.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Shall be assigned Exhibit P3213.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  It's one minute early, but this would be a good

10     time, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

12             Court adjourned.

13                           --- Recess taken at 12.13 p.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

15             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Zivanovic.

16             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  I would just inform the Chamber that one of our

17     documents were admitted -- one of our document -- documents were -- was

18     erroneously admitted into evidence as it is 1D -- sorry.  Just to see

19     that.  It is 1D1758.  It was admitted as D151 and -- but 1D1768 had to be

20     admitted as D151.

21             And I'm grateful to the Prosecution because they warned us about

22     it.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So it is the document number that was

25     wrong; right?


Page 10129

 1             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Document what is admitted into evidence is 1D1758

 2     and it was admitted as D151.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  And --

 4             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  But it 1D1768 has to be admitted as --

 5             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  So we have to --

 6             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  -- D151.

 7             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Under the same document number, under the same

 8     exhibit number, we have to put 1D1768.

 9             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  1D1768 should be admitted.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  Please ...

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do so, Mr. Registrar.

13             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And -- sorry.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.

15             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  And I would just add that the -- the accused

16     responded in direct examination as to his relationship with Mr. Kertes on

17     10th of July, at page 9710.

18             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

19             MR. STRINGER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  In fact, we were

20     going to mention that as well.  Apologies.  It was my mistake.

21     Mr. Hadzic did, indeed, testify in direct about having known Mr. Kertes

22     before.  Still our position that he did not testify about the assistance

23     in relocating his family.  But we did want to make that clarification.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Let's move on.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]


Page 10130

 1             MR. STRINGER:  Could we please have tab 388, which is L0001.

 2        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, this is coming up.  This is the Gazette that contains

 3     the laws from 1991 for the SBWS, and I want to ask you about some of

 4     those laws.

 5             Here we see at the very beginning is the declaration on sovereign

 6     autonomy of the Serb people of SBWS, and I already asked you about that.

 7     And so we're going to skip over that document and then move to the next

 8     document that appears in the Gazette at page 2 of the B/C/S, page 3 of

 9     the English.  It's the decision on position of the Serb people from SBWS

10     in the Yugoslav state community.  And this is dated the

11     25th of June, 1991.

12             And, Mr. Hadzic, just to refresh us, can you tell the Chamber

13     what occurred on the 25th of June, 1991?  This refers to a session of the

14     Great National Assembly.

15        A.   Yes.  On the 25th of June, the Croatian parliament passed the

16     decision on the separation of Croatia from Yugoslavia.  At that same

17     time, the Great National Assembly of the Serbian people passed the

18     decision for us to separate from Croatia.

19        Q.   And is that what this decision is that we're looking at here?

20        A.   I suppose so.  All I can see is the decision.  I can't see

21     anything above that.

22        Q.   It says:

23             "Taking the right of the Serb people to self-determination as a

24     starting point, including the right to cessation."

25             Is this the document that you've just referred to?


Page 10131

 1        A.   I think so, yes.

 2        Q.   Now, also on the 25th of June, 1991, first of all, let me ask

 3     you:  The session that is referred to here held on the

 4     25th of June, 1992, where did that session take place?

 5        A.   In Backa Palanka.

 6        Q.   And also on the 25th of June, Mr. Hadzic, is it correct that it

 7     was on that day that you were put forth or appointed as the

 8     prime minister designate?

 9        A.   Yes.  The proposal came from the Great National Assembly and my

10     name was put up as the prime minister designate.

11        Q.   And we see here in Article 2 that on this day, it was decided

12     that on the territory of the SBWS, essentially the constitution and the

13     laws of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia would be applied.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I wanted to direct your attention to Article 5 of this decision.

16             MR. STRINGER:  Page 4 of the English.

17        Q.   It says:

18             "As of the say of cessation or, in other words, separation of

19     Croatia, the Serb people and some part of other nations and minorities

20     living on the territory of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem shall

21     remain within a single state of the Serb people and other Yugoslav

22     nations which opt for such state community."

23             My first question here, Mr. Hadzic, is:  As of 25th of June,

24     1991, on this day, what was the territory of SBWS?

25        A.   I suppose that it was the territory inhabited by the Serbian


Page 10132

 1     people in the Serbian villages.

 2        Q.   And can we agree that in much of the territory of the SBWS as is

 3     also the case in Bosnia-Herzegovina, actually Serb people were living

 4     with Croatian people and other Serbs, or that you had villages of Croats

 5     and Serbs that were in very close proximity to each other throughout the

 6     entire region?

 7        A.   I don't know what the situation was in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I

 8     rarely went there.  However, in Slavonia and Baranja, there was a group

 9     of pure Serb villages.  For example, my native village was like that.  In

10     some parts, there were villages where the population was mixed and there

11     was also the third type, with only Croatian population.

12             I think I made a mistake.  I wanted to say that there were pure

13     Serb villages, pure Croatian villages, and there were also mixed villages

14     where Croats and Serbs lived together in various ratios.

15        Q.   And it's a fact that despite what is said here in Article 5,

16     there aren't any other Yugoslav nations that were given an opportunity to

17     opt for - that is, to choose - to be a part of this state community, this

18     Serb district or entity that you were creating.  The non-Serbs didn't get

19     a chance to elect whether they wanted to be in that or outside of that.

20     True?

21        A.   I did not understand your question.  Could you please repeat it?

22     Maybe you can shorten it.

23        Q.   Well, earlier you said that in Vukovar 36 per cent of the people

24     who lived there had declared themselves to be Serbs.  Did the people in

25     Vukovar who declared themselves to be Croats ever get a chance to opt in


Page 10133

 1     or opt out of this SBWS territory that was being established on this day?

 2        A.   There was a referendum in Croatia.  Croats voted in favour of an

 3     independent Croatian state by a large majority.  At the same time, Serbs

 4     had their own referendum, and a large percentage, almost 100 per cent of

 5     them, showed in that referendum that they didn't want to stay in the

 6     Croatian state.  I have to emphasise that Croatia was the one that made

 7     the first step and seceded from Yugoslavia.  Whereas, Serbs and other

 8     nations and national minorities, many of them wanted to remain in -- in

 9     Yugoslavia.  It's very clear who made the first step and who wanted to go

10     on living like before the 25th of June, 1991.

11        Q.   And so, in fact, you knew here on the 25th of June, and even

12     earlier, that the strong likelihood was that Croat, perhaps other

13     non-Serbs who lived in the SBWS, were not going to choose to be a part of

14     the Serbian District that you were creating.  You knew from the start.

15     No one was going to opt in, if they weren't Serbs?

16        A.   Well, your question is worded in a very strange way.  The Serbian

17     people in the Socialist Republic of Croatia was a constituent people and

18     they were equal to the Croatian people there.  After the democratic

19     elections in Croatia, the Croatian parliament unilaterally, against the

20     will of the Serbian people, changed the constitution and passed the

21     decision according to which the only constituent people in Croatia were

22     Croatians and that all the others were national minorities.  In keeping

23     with the right of any people to self-determination --

24        Q.   And I apologise for cutting you off there, but we know about

25     that.  We know about the changes to the Croatian constitution.  We know


Page 10134

 1     about how the status of the peoples's constituent nations in Croatia

 2     changed under the constitution.  I'm asking you something that is

 3     actually more practical and realistic, and the reality is that where it

 4     says that -- here other Yugoslav nations would have an opportunity to opt

 5     for or choose this, the fact is that most of the people in the region had

 6     already chosen and they had chosen to go a different direction.  True?

 7        A.   I'm not sure that in Slavonia and Baranja a majority opted for

 8     that.  A lot of people in Croatia, including Vukovar, including the

 9     municipal assembly, opted in favour of staying in Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   Well, that doesn't mean that Croatian people living in Vukovar

11     opted in favour of living in a Serbian Autonomous District of SBWS with

12     Vukovar as its capital, did they?  They certainly didn't choose that.  It

13     was imposed on them.

14        A.   At that time, nobody even mentioned that Vukovar might be the

15     capital.  We only reacted to what Croatia did.  I have to say, since I'm

16     under oath, that I'm nearly 100 per cent sure that this session of the

17     Great National Assembly in Backa Palanka was held on the 26th of June,

18     not on the 25th of June.  I don't know why somebody thought it was on the

19     25th of June.  That was without my knowledge.  We held that meeting or

20     the session of the Great National Assembly one day after the session of

21     the Croatian parliament.

22        Q.   But you're not denying, sir that this document was adopted on

23     that day, either the 25th or the 26th of June; correct?

24        A.   No, I'm not denying that.  Just for the sake of truth, I'm saying

25     that it was on the 26th of June in Backa Palanka.  Only later did I hear


Page 10135

 1     and read that it was on the 25th of June in Borovo Selo, which is

 2     absolutely incorrect.

 3        Q.   The next document in this -- the Gazette is something called the

 4     constitutional law of the Serb District of Slavonia, Baranja, and

 5     Western Srem.  This is still at tab 388, L00001.  And if you look at

 6     the -- the heading or the preamble, you can see, Mr. Hadzic, toward the

 7     bottom that this, according to the Gazette, is dated

 8     25th of September, 1991.  This refers to a second session of the

 9     Great National Assembly in Beli Manastir on 25th of September.

10             Do you recall, sir, that that's the day when this constitutional

11     law was passed by the Great National Assembly?

12        A.   I agree.  That's when the government was elected as well.

13        Q.   That's the day that you were formally -- you formally took your

14     office as prime minister and other ministers were also approved by the

15     Great National Assembly; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   In Article 4 here of the constitutional law, it says:

18             "The territory of the Serb district is composed of towns,

19     villages, places and territory where citizens made decision on

20     integration."

21             As of this day, 25 September, 1991, had the citizens of Vukovar

22     made a decision on integration?  And by "citizens," I mean all of the

23     citizens of Vukovar, regardless of their ethnicity.

24        A.   I don't know.  I know that the Serbs voted in the referendum.  I

25     don't know.  I was not involved in the drafting of this constitutional


Page 10136

 1     law.

 2        Q.   What about Ilok?  Do you know if the people living in Ilok had

 3     made a decision on integration in the SBWS?

 4        A.   I don't know.

 5        Q.   Well, the fact is they didn't, did they?  We know that they never

 6     passed any decision on integration in the SBWS.  True?

 7        A.   I don't know that they passed a decision to that effect.

 8        Q.   Actually, the decision that they passed is the one that came in

 9     the following month of October, when they had the referendum to leave, as

10     the JNA and Serb forces took control of Western Srem.  Isn't that the

11     decision that was ultimately made in Ilok?

12        A.   I know that just like you.  However, in your question, I can hear

13     "the Serb forces."

14             According to what I know, those forces were the JNA.  There were

15     no other forces.  So your term "the Serb forces" is superfluous.  The

16     only military that existed at the time was the JNA, and that was, indeed,

17     the JNA.

18        Q.   Article 10 of this constitutional law says that:

19             "Citizens are equal in relation to their rights and duties ..."

20             As it turned out, Mr. Hadzic, can't we agree that Croatian

21     citizens and other non-Serbs who lived in the territory of the SBWS were

22     not equal in terms of their rights, their liberty, particularly the right

23     to stay safe in their own homes.  As it turned out, they were not equal,

24     were they?

25        A.   As far as I'm concerned, me, personally, and the government that


Page 10137

 1     I represented, they -- people were all equal.  However, there were cases

 2     where our influence was non-existent and when this was not enforceable.

 3        Q.   Were people who lived there, say, descendants of Croats who had

 4     come from Herzegovina after World War II, were those people equal in the

 5     SBWS, or were they singled out and made to leave?

 6        A.   They were equal.  Those who stayed didn't have to leave if they

 7     didn't want to leave.

 8             MR. STRINGER:  Could we go to Article 19, please.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Hadzic, here we see, again on the 25th of September,

10     1991, in the constitutional law the provision that sets out the

11     authority, the competencies of the Great National Assembly.  The question

12     here is this:  Before this day, before the 25th of September, these sorts

13     of competencies were being carried out or would have been within the

14     competence of the Serbian National Council; correct?  Those authorities

15     then passed to the Great National Assembly on the 25th of September under

16     this law?

17        A.   I couldn't agree with you, not only because this is not correct

18     but because I don't know anything about that.  I don't know whether this

19     is correct or incorrect.

20        Q.   And then moving to Article 27:

21             "The government shall determine policy of the Serb district,

22     enforce laws, other regulations and public documents applied in the Serb

23     district."

24             The government that is referred to here, Mr. Hadzic, is your

25     government; correct?  You were the prime minister, the president of the


Page 10138

 1     government?

 2        A.   Yes I was.

 3        Q.   And so under the constitutional law, it was your government that

 4     determined policy.  True?

 5        A.   This was passed at the first meeting of the assembly, when the

 6     government was confirmed.  This had been planned for some ideal

 7     conditions.  However, those conditions were never put in place in the

 8     course of 1991.  We could not pursue any policies.  We could not

 9     implement any laws because we do -- did not have any instruments of

10     authority or virtually none.

11        Q.   Staying with the same document, we'll move to the next law.

12     Tab 388, L1.  The Law on Enforcement of the Constitutional Law.

13             In Article 1 it says that the constitutional law, other

14     regulations of the Republic of Croatia were no longer effective on the

15     territory of the Serb district.

16             I'd like to ask you to look at Article 4.  Now what's happened

17     here is that the citizens of the Serb district have purportedly lost

18     their citizenship or they've been stripped of their citizenship under

19     this law.  Their Croatian citizenship.  But retain Yugoslav citizenship

20     on the day when the constitutional law comes into effect.

21             What right did the Serb district or its Great National Assembly

22     have in order to dictate what would be the citizenship of the people

23     living there?

24        A.   Well, now you're asking me to embark on a legal issue and the

25     issue of human rights.  To my mind, we were all citizens of the SFRY.


Page 10139

 1     All those who remained in the territory of the Serbian District remained

 2     the citizens of the SFRY.  As for the right for somebody to be a citizen

 3     of the Republic of Croatia, that right cannot be denied to anybody.  I

 4     was not even aware of this article.  I'd not been involved in its

 5     drafting.

 6        Q.   Well, Mr. Hadzic, did you take any time to acquaint yourself with

 7     the laws of the Serb District, laws that you as its prime minister were

 8     obligated to enforce?  You have to have been aware of this in the laws

 9     that you were responsible for.  You knew about this?

10        A.   I speak honestly when I say that I don't remember it.  Now,

11     whether I should have known or not is something I can't respond to.  We

12     had all been SFRY citizens before Croatia's cessation.

13        Q.   Article 5 guarantees private property:

14             "Except those citizens in the Republic of Croatia and Yugoslavia

15     whose property is seized, based on special terms, due to their subversive

16     activities in the period of fighting on the territory of the Serb

17     district."

18             You see that?

19        A.   I see it.

20        Q.   Now here on the 25th of September, we know that Dalj had already

21     fallen and was under the control of the Serb District from early August.

22     Erdut as well.  True?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Fighting was continuing in Vukovar.  True?

25        A.   True.


Page 10140

 1        Q.   JNA was in the process of liberating, if you will, towns and

 2     villages in Western Srem.  True?

 3        A.   I was not receiving all information at the time, but now I know

 4     it was so.

 5        Q.   And if any Croatian people were opposing any of this take-over,

 6     they were deemed to be subversive, and their property was subject to

 7     seizure under this Law on Enforcement of Constitutional Law; correct?

 8        A.   I don't know if it is correct.  In my view, and the way they

 9     taught me at school, was that private property is inalienable.  It cannot

10     be taken away from anyone.

11        Q.   Well, this is in fact one of the laws and you and your government

12     were responsible for enforcing.  Can we agree on that?

13        A.   I would not agree.  It was passed by the assembly.  I'm not sure

14     it was implemented though.

15        Q.   So as prime minister, despite what was said in the constitution,

16     you felt like you could pick and choose what laws you wished to enforce

17     and those you wished not to enforce?

18        A.   That is not correct.  I simply believe that I could not implement

19     things that ran counter to the law.

20        Q.   Croatian people who did not want to accept the Serb District were

21     subversives, were subversive and enemies of your state or your district.

22     That's how they're treated; correctly -- is that correct?

23        A.   While the war lasted, we were on the opposing sides.  All those

24     who accepted to stay in the district were on an equal footing, in my

25     view.  This includes not only Serbs and Croats but everyone else,


Page 10141

 1     Hungarians, Ruthenians, Slovaks, et cetera.

 2        Q.   And as I just suggested, those who choose not to accept the Serb

 3     district were not on an equal footing and were treated as subversives;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I was not informed that anyone stayed in Slavonia and Baranja

 6     while being under this provision because those who refused left with the

 7     Croatian army, and the Croatian army was engaged in conflict with the

 8     JNA.

 9        Q.   The next law here in the Gazette also from the

10     25th of September, 1991, is the decision on election of president of the

11     Great National Assembly.

12             MR. STRINGER:  Page 16 of the English.

13        Q.   And here we see in Article 1, or under heading number, 1 that

14     Mr. Ilija Koncarevic has been elected as president of the Great

15     National Assembly.

16             Mr. Koncarevic's name has come up a few times today.  He, along

17     with Mr. Petrovic, is one of the individuals present when the SNC,

18     Serbian National Council, was established in January of 1991; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Where is he from?

21        A.   Koncarevic at the time resided in Novi Sad.  He hailed from the

22     village of Ervenik near Knin.

23        Q.   I'd like to now move to the Law on Ministries, which -- we'll

24     skip over one of the laws, the decision on election of vice-president.

25     We'll skip to that one and move to page 18 of the English,


Page 10142

 1     Law on Ministries.

 2             And here, Mr. Hadzic, on your direct, you went through one of the

 3     later decisions appointing the ministers, but the ministries set out here

 4     in Article 5, just for the record, these are all ministries that were a

 5     part of the government of which you were the prime minister; correct?

 6        A.   I still do not have it on the screen.

 7        Q.   That's Article 5.  I apologise for that.  Article 5, page 19 of

 8     the English.

 9             You see Article 5 at the bottom of the screen in English and

10     then ...

11        A.   I see that.

12             MR. STRINGER:  We can wait for it to come up in the B/C/S.

13             Sorry, the B/C/S is page 6.  Okay.

14        Q.   Here we see in defence, interior, finance, war economy.  And as

15     the prime minister, you're the person who proposed or nominated the

16     people who would fill these positions.  Is that true?

17        A.   Yes.  Together with my friends and associates, yes.  We'd not

18     have the necessary staff in the district; hence, we had to make due and

19     bring in people who were in exile in Serbia.

20        Q.   Ministry of Defence there, the appointment went to Ilija Kojic;

21     is that correct?  He served as the minister of defence.

22        A.   Yes, correct.

23        Q.   And then, additionally, he was the first commander of the

24     SBWS TO, the Territorial Defence?

25        A.   Yes.  He was appointed by a part of the SNC.  It was more,


Page 10143

 1     rather -- it was rather formal.

 2        Q.   When he was appointed, that was actually before September 25th.

 3     True?  He was appointed commander of the TO prior to this?

 4        A.   Yes, he was appointed before Badza's arrival.

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the very last

 6     sentence, please.

 7             MR. STRINGER:

 8        Q.   They've asked if you could repeat the last sentence of your

 9     answer.

10        A.   He was appointed TO commander before Badza's arrival.  That is to

11     say, before August 1991.

12        Q.   And just a moment ago, you said he was appointed by a part of the

13     SNC and this goes actually to a question I asked you a few moments

14     earlier.  At that time, in appointing Mr. Kojic to be commander of the

15     TO, the SNC was acting in the role of a governmental body.  True?

16        A.   I wouldn't agree.  The SNC was, in a way, above the government.

17     It could not act as the government.

18        Q.   In any event, it was SNC, at least during the period of

19     July 1991, that would have had the authority to make an appointment such

20     as this, the appointment of Kojic to be commander of TO.

21        A.   Well, you could perhaps say that the authority was granted by the

22     Great National Assembly, but I'm not sure about it.  It's possible.

23        Q.   And then, in any event, as of 25th of September, 1991, whatever

24     authority the SNC had in this respect ended and passed over directly to

25     the Great National Assembly.  Would we agree on that?


Page 10144

 1        A.   Well, that's how I understood it because the

 2     Great National Assembly had authority from the 25th or the 26th of June.

 3     So this was the second convocation, and the Serbian National Council was

 4     a kind of designate until the second government on the 25th of September.

 5     At least that's how I saw it.

 6        Q.   I think you put it well, if I may say.  You were a designate

 7     prime minister until the 25th of September.  The Great National Assembly

 8     was sort of a designate legislative body until the 25th of September.  Is

 9     that a correct way of putting it?

10        A.   I'm not a legal expert, but, yes, perhaps you could call it that.

11     Yeah.

12        Q.   Now if we look at Article 6 of this law, Law on Ministries,

13     page 20 of the English, page 7 of the B/C/S.  I'd like to talk about what

14     the Ministry of Defence is doing here or what its role was.

15             Is it true, Mr. Hadzic, that the role of the military defence,

16     the responsibilities and authority it has here are essentially similar or

17     just a continuation of what a Ministry of Defence would do in the SFRY?

18        A.   Well, we tried to mirror the situation as it was in the SFRY,

19     even though we were just being established and we didn't have the

20     resources.  So we only prepared the paperwork and in some ideal

21     conditions, that's how it should have been.  But there were no

22     conditions for that Ministry of Defence of ours to do anything.  It

23     didn't have an army or any other resources.

24             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.

25             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I don't think that the witness mentioned


Page 10145

 1     ideological -- this term "ideological" in any context.  So it would be

 2     useful for the witness to -- to repeat his answer on the last question.

 3             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Hadzic, did you use the word "ideological"?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.  I don't know what

 5     the context is.  I can see that it says "ideological," but I didn't say

 6     that.  Perhaps we can translate this part back to me.  I don't know what

 7     is written there.  So it was just a kind of ...

 8             MR. STRINGER:  I could perhaps ask more questions in a way to

 9     clarify this, Mr. President, if that's acceptable.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Please do.

11             MR. ZIVANOVIC:  Sorry, I would like the witness to give his

12     answer on this particular question already put.  I wouldn't go -- go --

13     go through this -- through this entries in the transcript.

14             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Well, if -- if then he could repeat his answer to

15     the question -- to the question:  Is it true Mr. Hadzic that the role of

16     the military defence the responsibilities and the authorities it has here

17     are essentially similar or just a continuation of what a Ministry of

18     Defence would do in the SFRY.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's as I already said, instead of

20     the word "ideological" which is put there without any context.  I was

21     thinking about practical preparations to create preconditions for the

22     work in some future.  That is how we conceived it because at that time we

23     did not have any conditions to have a proper defence ministry or army or

24     any other resources.

25             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.  Can we move on?


Page 10146

 1             MR. STRINGER:

 2        Q.   Article 6 also relates or refers to organisation and functioning

 3     of Territorial Defence and civil defence, training in the field of

 4     defence, et cetera.

 5             The references here to the Territorial Defence and civil defence,

 6     those are bodies that existed under the SFRY law.  I believe it's the

 7     Law on All People's Defence.  Is that correct, as far as you know?

 8        A.   Yes.  These were bodies that were there before the war, or,

 9     rather, in the entire SFRY.

10        Q.   And in the SFRY system, the -- the TO, the Territorial Defence,

11     is a body that exists to some extent -- well, let me -- let me try to

12     rephrase it to be most clear.

13             Under the SFRY law, a Ministry of Defence did have certain

14     duties, responsibilities in regard to the Territorial Defence?

15        A.   I am not sure in the most precise way here, but I know that the

16     armed forces of the SFRY consisted of the armed forces and the

17     Territorial Defence, and in a state of war, they were all subordinated to

18     the Yugoslav People's Army.  We prepared this for a future period, a

19     peaceful period, that we were expecting, a period after the war.

20        Q.   Let me -- and we can bring up the transcript from your suspect

21     interview, Mr. Hadzic, if you'd like.  We can all look at it.  But

22     perhaps I could just read a short part of that to you and you could -- if

23     you want to see it, we can.  But it might not be so controversial.  This

24     is from -- sorry, 4974.02D, page 50.

25             You say:


Page 10147

 1             "I believe there was no special decision in this regard.  I don't

 2     know whether you know that in the SFRY there was the Territorial Defence

 3     and civil defence, and we were just a logical continuation of what

 4     existed.  We were staying in Yugoslavia and that's -- I never actually

 5     thought about it but that's maybe how I see it now.  It was just a

 6     logical continuation."

 7             MR. STRINGER:  Maybe we should bring that up because --

 8             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Mr. Stringer, are we returning to this document

 9     after that?

10             MR. STRINGER:  Yeah, indeed.  Yes, indeed, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Okay.

12             MR. STRINGER:  So that would be -- that would be 65 ter 4974.02D.

13     And this is, yeah, page 51, 52 of the English.  Page 29 of the B/C/S.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. STRINGER:  Moving to page 51 of the English.  Yeah, that's

16     it.  Page 29 of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   This is what I was asking you about, Mr. Hadzic, whether your

18     statement here is one that you would accept today:

19             "I don't know whether you know that in the SFRY there was

20     Territorial Defence, civil defence, and we were just a logical

21     continuation of what had existed, we were staying in Yugoslavia."

22             And then you can read what you said after.

23        A.   As far as I can understand, then and now, I don't understand

24     anything more.  So what I said then is something that I still think now.

25        Q.   Which is, as regards a Ministry of Defence or a TO, you were


Page 10148

 1     essentially just importing or continuing that which had always been the

 2     law in Yugoslavia.

 3        A.   We appointed a defence minister because we believed that it was

 4     necessary because we thought that in our future where we would stay in

 5     Yugoslavia, our region should have that.  But I didn't link that in any

 6     way, and now I see that it does have nothing do with the TO.  At the

 7     time, the official function of the defence minister and the TO commander

 8     which was Badza were two separate things, and there were no -- there was

 9     no jurisdiction on our part over the TO.  We had Minister Kojic.  Nobody

10     asked us for any sort of approval as regards the commander of the TO,

11     Badza.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Hadzic please repeat the last

13     sentence.

14             MR. STRINGER:

15        Q.   Could you please repeat the last sentence of your answer.  The

16     interpreters missed that.

17        A.   I said that nobody asked us about the question of the TO

18     commander, Badza.  Nobody asked our approval for it.  It was all in

19     accordance with the regulations in the federal state and the

20     Yugoslav People's Army.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, we'll go back to the Law on Ministries which we

22     were looking at before.  Article 6, which was L1, page 20 of the English,

23     and page 7 of the B/C/S.

24             Recognising, Mr. Hadzic, that your evidence is that things

25     actually on the ground or as implemented were different, in Article 7,


Page 10149

 1     can we agree that this is at least what was envisioned as the role of a

 2     Ministry of Interior, again, within the Yugoslav system?

 3        A.   As a vision, yes.  But perhaps it would be interesting for you

 4     and the Trial Chamber to say something about the seriousness of the

 5     defence ministry.  One week after this decision, the defence minister was

 6     seriously wounded.  He was in the hospital.  And, as far as I know, he

 7     didn't have a deputy and nobody even noticed that he was missing.  So,

 8     actually, his role in the ministry and the role of the ministry itself

 9     was not much --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Hadzic please repeat the last

11     sentence.

12             MR. STRINGER:

13        Q.   Mr. Hadzic, again, you're speaking quickly and they missed the

14     last sentence of your answer.

15        A.   I said that I could agree with you because it was prepared in the

16     way it should have been prepared in some kind of ideal conditions.

17        Q.   And as you've just pointed out, this law we're looking at here is

18     from the 25th of September.  And as you've pointed out or as you've just

19     said, one week after the decision the defence minister was seriously

20     wounded.

21             And just to follow up on that, you're saying here that Mr. Kojic

22     was wounded in early October and then left the region and went to

23     hospital; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And until the time that he was injured and then had to leave the


Page 10150

 1     area, he was not only the defence minister but he was actually the -- the

 2     TO commander?

 3        A.   No.  Radovan Stojicic, Badza, was the commander of the TO.

 4             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, I didn't have any more questions on

 5     this particular law.  I didn't know if you wanted to ask --

 6             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Yes.  I would like to see the -- the article with

 7     the tasks of the minister of information.  Must be something around 13 --

 8     Article 13 or 14.

 9             MR. STRINGER:  It's 13.  That's page 22 of the English.

10             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you.

11             Thank you.  I've seen it.

12             MR. STRINGER:  The next item would be the decision on appointment

13     of presidents and vice-presidents.  This is, again, tab 388, Exhibit L1.

14     And the English page begins at the bottom of 24 and continues on to 25.

15     And the B/C/S is page 9.

16        Q.   Do you recall this law, Mr. Hadzic?  This is, again, from the

17     25th of September.  This is appointing you president of the government

18     and then also appointing the ministers in Article 3.  And you went

19     through that with your counsel, Mr. Zivanovic, on direct exam.

20        A.   I -- yes.  I remember that decision.  I got confused when you

21     said do I recall that law.  I consider this to be a decision, not a law,

22     so I apologise.

23        Q.   Just to follow-up -- this is on page 26 of the English, very

24     bottom of Article 3, just above Article 4.  In your direct examination,

25     looking at item 15, Stevo Bogic, you said, transcripts page 9689:


Page 10151

 1             "He was from Borovo Selo.  He came as part of the package

 2     together with Jovic and Devetak."

 3             And then you go on to talk about how he -- this is page 9690:

 4             "As far as his duties are concerned, in addition to the political

 5     ones that he had, he assumed a responsibility to set up a security

 6     service around the government building."

 7             Two questions on this.  What did you mean when you said he was a

 8     "part of the package, together with Jovic and Devetak"?  And the reason I

 9     ask that is because in your direct, you said that among the criteria used

10     for selecting ministers was to achieve geographic representation across

11     the region.  That was among the factors.  You already had people from

12     Borovo Selo.  I'm just wondering, therefore, why Bogic came as part of

13     the package when you already had Borovo Selo represented in the

14     government?

15        A.   I had Bogic from Borovo Selo and then next to him in the package

16     were Devetak and Dr. Jovic.  You understood that Dr. Jovic and Devetak

17     were there and that Bogic was added.  But, actually, they were all equal.

18     It was an equal proposal by the Borovo Selo local commune.  So I don't

19     know who would come first and who would come last.  That's why it was

20     part of a package.  I had a problem, actually, with the -- and you

21     mentioned that - with the geographic issue and also the professional

22     expertise issue.

23        Q.   You said that -- you referred to his political duties.  You said:

24             "In addition to the political duty, he assumed a responsibility

25     to set up a security service ..."


Page 10152

 1             What were Bogic's political duties?

 2        A.   When I said "political duties," I meant that all ministers had

 3     political functions and next to their very specific duties, they also had

 4     political duties.  So I use that term "political duties" implying that as

 5     soon as he was a minister, he also had political duties.  That's how I

 6     understand it at least.

 7        Q.   What were his political duties?

 8        A.   He was minister without portfolio.  I don't remember now

 9     specifically what he did.  But as a minister he had political duties by

10     the very nature of the fact that he was a minister.  He had to go and

11     conduct talks if a problem should crop up in some local commune, or

12     anything like that.  That was mostly what he was entrusted with, for

13     meetings.

14        Q.   Now, he was a minister without a portfolio and the reason for

15     that was he was not an educated person and it was thought, well, do we --

16     is this true, he was not an educated person?  I can refer you to your

17     suspect interview when you said that.  This is why he did not have a

18     portfolio.  He had no special area of expertise, I would think?

19        A.   Yes.  I meant he didn't have any formal education, but he was

20     capable.  There was a case with Boro Milinkovic [phoen] in the government

21     also who did not have any formal education, and he was appointed to the

22     Ministry of Culture and Religion.  But Boro was appointed by his

23     villagers who put his name forward, and that is why it was possible for

24     him to be a minister, and he was a minister without a portfolio.

25             MR. STRINGER:  Mr. President, this would be a good moment to


Page 10153

 1     break for the day.

 2             JUDGE DELVOIE:  Thank you, Mr. Stringer.  We'll adjourn for the

 3     day and come back at 9.00 tomorrow.

 4             Court adjourned.

 5                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

 7                           July, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.

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