1 Wednesday, 23 July 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Good morning to everyone in and around the
8 Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is the case
10 IT-04-75-T, the Prosecutor versus Goran Hadzic. Thank you.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 May we have the appearances, please, starting with the
14 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. For
15 the Prosecution, Douglas Stringer; Sarah Clanton; Case Manager,
16 Thomas Laugel; legal interns, Lucy Jones, Katherine Davis.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Zivanovic, for the Defence.
19 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of
20 Goran Hadzic, Zoran Zivanovic and Christopher Gosnell. Thank you.
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.
23 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. And just before I
24 begin, though, one small, little housekeeping matter. For the record,
25 what is now in evidence as Exhibit P2310, should be linked to
1 65 ter number 4774.3. Currently it is linked to 65 ter 4774. And so
2 just to add the .3 to the 65 ter number. And we've consulted with the
3 Registrar about that.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
5 Yes, yes, Mr. Registrar. Thank you.
6 WITNESS: GORAN HADZIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Stringer: [Continued]
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Hadzic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Before we continue from yesterday, I'd like to actually go back
12 to a few things that you said today -- or excuse me, yesterday, or
13 previously during the course of your cross-examination. And the first of
14 these is at page 10071 of the transcript, and I was asking you about the
15 time of the events in late 1991. I was asking whether you knew, among
16 other things, that Arkan was a criminal. And you said in answer:
17 "You're asking me if I knew whether he was a criminal, and I told
18 you that I didn't know at the time ..."
19 Mr. Hadzic, is it possible that you said something differently to
20 Vladimir Dzuro during the course of your suspect interview and at that
21 time you said that you actually knew that he was wanted by Interpol and
22 was a criminal?
23 A. I don't know what period I discussed with Mr. Dzuro and what you
24 had in mind. I told you that when I first met him, I didn't know that he
25 was a criminal. I didn't know anything about him. And since in the
1 country where I resided, there were no criminal reports against him, he
2 had never been arrested, for me it was enough, I did not have any
3 possibility to run a check on him.
4 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1084. This is
5 65 ter 04974.03K. And this is English page 25 -- sorry, 32 of the
6 English, 25 of the B/C/S and we'll just play this short video-clip when
7 the interpreters tell us that they've got it.
8 THE INTERPRETER: We are ready.
9 MR. STRINGER: Okay.
10 Q. And, Mr. Hadzic, if you're not able to hear it, let us know and
11 we'll stop and start again.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Arkan went into -- launched
14 military operations in a disciplined manner, regardless of what you say
15 and which is true that he was wanted by Interpol, that he was a criminal,
16 and that a warrant for his arrest had been issued."
17 MR. STRINGER:
18 Q. So you knew, Mr. Hadzic, at the time he was involved in military
19 operations, despite your opinion that he operating or acting in a
20 disciplined manner, you did know at the time, at that time in 1991 and
21 during the conflict, that he was a wanted criminal by Interpol. True?
22 A. Obviously that's not the case. This is a play on words, it
23 seems. When Mr. Dzuro asked me, I knew then. When he first arrived with
24 the Serbian police as a member of the Serbian state, i.e., a member of
25 the federal state, I could not vet him. Later on, I heard rumours that
1 he was wanted by the Interpol. I don't know whether Serbia had to comply
2 with the Interpol's demands and why he wasn't arrested by the authorities
3 of the state where he resided.
4 Q. Another item from yesterday, Mr. Hadzic, going now to page 10116
5 of the transcript, I was asking you about the appointment of Mr. Petrovic
6 to be the minister of information for your government. I said --
7 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Stringer, could you give us a moment, please.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE HALL: Mr. Stringer, if you're moving on to another line of
10 questions this -- the last exchange between yourself and the witness,
11 what -- I'm not sure about and perhaps either the answer or the question
12 was -- well, certainly the -- the -- what I'm left with is not very clear.
13 But, Mr. Hadzic, do I understand your testimony to be that back
14 in 1991 you didn't know that Arkan was wanted by Interpol, et cetera,
15 however, at the time of the interview with Mr. Dzuro, you did know?
16 My question is: When did you learn that Arkan was a criminal,
17 that he was wanted by Interpol?
18 A. You understood this first part well. In 2002, I told Mr. Dzuro that
19 I'd -- I knew that when I was talking to him. As for the precise time
20 when I learned that, I can't remember exactly when that was, but certainly
21 around the time when Arkan became a well known media personality, when they
22 talked about him, when foreign journalists came, even an Australian MP came
23 to visit him as well, and there was -- a lot of controversy surrounded him.
24 They said he was a colonel of the SFRY State Security, that he was a
25 criminal, somebody whose job was to kill all over Europe. That's what I
1 heard. And it was only later, perhaps in 95-96 that I heard that he had
2 also robbed banks, in the Netherlands or Sweden. I'm not sure where.
3 After 1991, I heard a lot of controversial stories, but I have never
4 heard that a final judgement of conviction was passed against him. I
5 don't remember learning that, nor did anyone tell me that officially. I
6 never received that either from Interpol or any other organisation, or any
7 police in the world.
8 JUDGE HALL: Thank you.
9 Thank you, Mr. Stringer.
10 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Your Honours.
11 Q. Just to briefly follow up on it, Mr. Hadzic, perhaps I could have
12 done a better job of trying to set the time-frame, because in your
13 response to my question you actually said that: Later on I heard rumours
14 that he was wanted by Interpol.
15 Can we agree that by the time of his wedding in early 1995, Mr. Raznjatovic
16 was a well-known figure in the media, and certainly by the time of his
17 wedding in 1995 you would have been aware of all of the controversy, if I
18 can put it that way, that swirled around Arkan and his reputation?
19 A. At that time those stories already existed, and I also heard that
20 Arkan had been arrested in Croatia and released. And I thought Croatia
21 was a state - now it's even a member of the European Union - if they were
22 serious in this shape, there was a strong indications that he had indeed
23 committed a crime. Croatia as a signatory of Interpol would have
24 extradited him to the countries that issued a warrant against him.
25 Q. And in your answer to Judge Hall's question, you made a reference
1 to the Australian consul who came to visit him. Are you referring now to
2 the footage that we looked at when the gentleman from Australia came to
3 the training centre and then also met with you and Arkan? We showed you
4 to that at the beginning of your cross-examination.
5 A. I did not say that he was a consul; he was a MP in the Australian
6 parliament. He visited Arkan; Arkan was his host. I received the
7 gentleman independently of that, and Arkan was his escort during that
9 Q. Okay. Now to move on --
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer --
11 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: You will have a date for that visit, I suppose.
13 MR. STRINGER: The visit of the Australian --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes --
15 MR. STRINGER: Yes. I -- we have it as January 1992.
16 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you very much.
17 MR. STRINGER:
18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I asked you yesterday a question about Mr. Petrovic.
19 I said:
20 "You selected Mr. Petrovic and put him forward to be information
21 minister of your government; isn't that correct?"
22 And you said:
23 "In the formal sense, yes. But it was not my independent
24 decision. It was also a result of the proposal of the rest of those who
25 were at the meeting, president of the Assembly, Koncarevic, some others
1 with whom we'd agreed about. But the assembly of SBWS was the one that
2 made its decision on their appointment."
3 Do you remember that evidence?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. I'm going to suggest to you there, Mr. Hadzic, and maybe it's
6 something that just needs to be clarified, but one could get the
7 impression that you were minimising the role that you played and the --
8 the extent to which you had the ability and the authority to select those
9 who would be members of your government. The fact is that you selected
10 those members of the government and 100 per cent, all of the people that
11 you selected, were in fact approved by the assembly. Isn't that true?
12 A. In formal term, this is the truth, but in practical terms it is
13 not. But it is very interesting to hear you say that I tried to minimise
14 my role. I had an opportunity to say to the Trial Chamber that I cannot
15 minimise it -- to the extent that it was really minimal. It was ten
16 times less significant than you may think. At that time I did not have a
17 telephone. I didn't have a car. I didn't have any possibility to
18 contact anybody. I could only use the courier services or acquaintances
19 in order to send messages to people to come to Dalj because I was waiting
20 for them and then wait to see whether they would turn up or not. And
21 this is the truth of the matter.
22 Now, whether this was minimum or maximum, I leave it to you to be
23 the judge of that. But this is how things were.
24 Q. Well, let's just take a look at what you said about this when
25 Mr. Dzuro asked you about it in 2002. That would be tab 1083,
1 65 ter 04974.02 and the letter N, for Nancy.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer [sic].
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we know why the text on the screen
4 from the interview of Mr. Hadzic is redacted in some parts?
5 MR. STRINGER: The reason for that is that it can take the
6 interpreters directly to the part that corresponds to the clip. Now the
7 Defence have obviously the complete unredacted version. This is done in
8 order to guide the interpreters. It's done in other cases as well. This
9 is the practice in other trials. If they don't like it, we can -- we can
10 change it back.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that these parts could be highlighted and
13 not -- not blacked. Not in black, because I don't know -- as far as I
14 know it is a public document. And could be --
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yeah --
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Could be seen on the screen.
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: I must say, I, for myself, wouldn't think that we
18 get on the screen the document that is -- I mean, the -- the version of
19 the document that is only there for the booth. So I would indeed prefer
20 to have the real document rather than the document that is there to help
21 the booth with the translation of the video-clip.
22 MR. STRINGER: We'll make the adjustment, Mr. President. And, in
23 any event, we're just running the video so we can all hear what is being
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 "Vladimir Dzuro: Yeah. If I may return to the government of
3 Selo, I mean who - you appointed those ministers, who -- did somebody
4 have to approve it -- the appointment?
5 "Goran Hadzic: [Interpretation] Yes, the Grand National -- the
6 Grand People's Assembly -- the Grand National Assembly.
7 "Vladimir Dzuro: And did they actually approve those ministers?
8 "Goran Hadzic: [Interpretation] Yes, it did with 100 per cent
9 certainty. I just now cannot remember when this was done. I believe
10 it's logical that this took place somewhere in September, because later
11 we had regular assembly sessions."
12 MR. STRINGER:
13 Q. And before I come back to you, let's just go ahead also to what
14 you said in the Dokmanovic case. This is 65 ter 02320. And this would
15 be for the Registrar, this is not a video-clip. This is the testimony
16 from --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, do we still have to be in private
19 MR. STRINGER: No, I didn't -- I don't know why we're in private
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Neither do I.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay. We are not in private session so we don't
24 take that signal into account.
25 MR. STRINGER: I see, actually, we do have -- we did manage to
1 get the video from Mr. Hadzic's testimony in the Dokmanovic case on this
2 point, and so with the Chamber's permission, we'll run that. This would
3 be 65 ter 2320.1. And this is at pages 3077 to 3078 of the Dokmanovic
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Q. How did Mr. Dokmanovic become
7 to be minister of agriculture?
8 "A. Slavko Dokmanovic was a very honourable man, and, as you
9 know, he was and still is. He had graduated from the school of
10 agriculture. He was nearby. I was able to appoint him. I appointed him
11 as such and politically, this also strictly corresponded to our
12 requirements because he was a very good political decision.
13 "Q. Was he easily elected or were there those Serbs who did not
14 want to elect him?
15 "A. With all the reasonable Serbs, the choice was okay, but
16 there were very few of such people. Most extremists attacked him, and I
17 had a lot of problems and I had to use all of my authority to have Slavko
18 appointed as minister."
19 MR. STRINGER:
20 Q. So, Mr. Hadzic, what you said there and this was when you were a
21 Defence witness for Mr. Dokmanovic, is that in fact you had authority and
22 you exercised your authority in order to put those people into your
23 government whom you wanted and so it wasn't quite as -- well, you in fact
24 did minimise your evidence on this, and you've continued to do so. It's
25 basically your decision. You consulted with others, and the ones you
1 selected were approved. Isn't that true?
2 A. I believe that we have gone in two completely different
3 directions with regard to your conclusions and my answers. Obviously I
4 didn't understand your question. When I spoke about my minimum role, I
5 meant the role of my government and my possibility to work. When it
6 comes to the appointment of ministers who played a role, the situation is
7 very clear. I told you that I had two basic views: One was
8 professional; the other was territorial. And apart from my proposals
9 there are also proposals from local communes and professional
10 associations that had a say. Those are two completely separate things.
11 As for my minimum role and my possibilities to work, that's what
12 I had in mind. It is absolutely irrelevant how able I was to appoint
13 ministers. Those are two different things. I suppose I didn't
14 understand you well. My proposal to appoint Dokmanovic was as valid as
15 the proposal that came from a local commune, but we were all obviously
16 talking at cross-purposes.
17 Q. Interpreters are asking if you could slow down a bit, Mr. Hadzic.
18 Maybe we were not understanding each other. I'm going to suggest to you
19 that you consulted. There were criteria for selection. It's not an
20 unusual thing. You made the selection and 100 per cent of your
21 selections were approved by the --
22 [Technical difficulty]
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: It will make a minute or two, Mr. Stringer, to
25 solve the problem.
1 Could the court reporter adjust the last sentence of mine. It
2 looks a little bit stupid the way it is now. It will take a minute or
3 two, Mr. Stringer, to solve the problem. Thank you.
4 I think we are back in business.
5 [Prosecution counsel confer]
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Is that right? Yes.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.
8 MR. STRINGER:
9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, with the interruption there, let me just try to start
11 I'm not asking you about the extent to which you had the
12 supplies, the paper, or the phones, or the cars in order to function as a
13 government. I'm asking you about the manner in which the ministers were
14 selected and appointed. And can we agree, sir, that in appointing your
15 minister, you consulted with others - there were criteria - you made the
16 decision, and 100% of the ministers whom you chose were in fact approved
17 by the Great National Assembly?
18 A. As for the Great National Assembly approving their appointments,
19 that is not in dispute. I said so to Mr. Dzuro and we all know about it
20 here. It could not have been any other way. I explained that as regards
21 the procedural parts I suggested to the national assembly to have those
22 ministers appointed. I've already explained the procedure of appointment
23 as such. Some people were proposed by Dalj, others from Borovo Selo, and
24 we also got some from Serbia such as the minister for urban planning and
25 construction and the minister of finance.
1 Q. I think it's a simple question, Mr. Hadzic. All of those whom
2 you proposed were approved. Yes or no?
3 MR. ZIVANOVIC: It is asked an answered.
4 MR. STRINGER: I -- I disagree, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: You may continue, Mr. Stringer.
6 MR. STRINGER:
7 Q. I think it's a simple question, Mr. Hadzic. All of those whom
8 you proposed were approved. Yes or no?
9 A. It is a very simple question but it contains two parts: In terms
10 of procedure, all of the ministers I proposed were accepted by the
11 assembly; as for the other part, I explained the procedure of nomination
12 and appointment. It had to come from me because I was the prime minister
13 designate. In that sense, that was fine. But I did explain to you the
14 factual situation of the proposals and the way they were made. So
15 procedurally your logic is correct but factually it is flawed.
16 Q. I asked you questions yesterday about the Serbian
17 National Council, and I'm looking now at pages 10084, -85 of the
18 transcript, also 10090. On 10085, I was suggesting to you that
19 Mr. Petrovic as spokesperson of the SNC was actually articulating what
20 was the platform and the objective of the SNC on establishing a line of
21 separation between Croatian and Serbian people and facilitating
22 population movement. At the time, we were looking that exhibit, 65 ter
23 1939.4, which you said you didn't know about.
24 And, again, yesterday you said is -- is -- is --
25 "That's not correct. This is what Ilija Petrovic was talking
1 about. I had no idea about it."
2 Moving down, same page, 10085, line 15, you said that you
3 reluctantly agreed to attend meetings of the SNC but this was not
4 something that was ever discussed. Page 10090, I asked:
5 "Did the SNC have territorial aspirations?"
6 You said:
7 This was never discussed at meetings. I saw that when I came
8 here in the book, Petrovic's book, and that was the first time that I
9 heard the geographic term "Moslavina." To tell you the truth, I don't
10 even know today exactly what this territory is, Moslavina."
11 You remember that testimony from yesterday, Mr. Hadzic?
12 A. I do.
13 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 999, which is P1956.
14 This is video footage. And we'll wait for the interpreters. We'll start
15 on page 1 of the English.
16 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
17 MR. STRINGER: Also page 1 of the B/C/S. And we'll let this run
18 for 49 seconds.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: Ilija Petrovic, member of
21 the National Council; Ilija Koncarevic, secretary general of the Serbian
22 National Council; Pero Matic, professor from Beli Manastir;
23 Slavko Dokmanovic, chairman of the municipal assembly of Vukovar;
24 Goran Hadzic, chairman of the Municipal Board of the
25 Serbian Democratic Party Vukovar and a member of the Main Board of the
1 Serbian Democratic Party Knin; and Caslav Ocic from Dalj. The Serbian
2 National Council for Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem was formed this
3 year in Sidski Banovci on Orthodox Christmas."
4 MR. STRINGER:
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, are you able to recognise this at all, this
6 television programme that you and the others appeared on? Does this ring
7 a bell?
8 A. I received that CD-ROM with the other material here. That's when
9 I saw it. But, other than that, I don't particularly recall this
11 Q. It refers to the establishment or the formation of the
12 Serbian National Council for SBWS on Orthodox Christmas. That's
13 consistent with what you've told us already. True?
14 A. Yes. On the 7th of January, 1991. That is when the Serbian
15 National Council was established.
16 Q. And here, according to the anchor anyway, at this point
17 Koncarevic and Petrovic are going public with their membership in the
18 SNC. They were both introduced as members of the SNC. You were not.
19 That's why I'm making the distinction.
20 A. It was probably so. I didn't observe that in the footage, but I
21 wasn't paying attention to it. In any case, I think that is the case.
22 Q. Okay.
23 MR. STRINGER: If we could then move forward to the second clip.
24 Thirty-eight seconds, 37 to -- 38 minutes, 37 seconds, to 40 minutes, 12.
25 This is page 18 of the English translation, pages 16 to 17 of the B/C/S.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: The booth has it.
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: Mr. Hadzic, do you believe
4 that a civilised separation Mr. Ocic was talking about is possible?
5 "Goran Hadzic: I'm an optimist by nature and I thought it was
6 possible, this peaceful co-existence, as they call it. However, I
7 categorically think that peaceful co-existence is not possible following
8 these recent incidents and under these circumstances. This should be
9 considered at the level of the Presidency of Yugoslavia, a peaceful
10 separation should be considered. I am not for bloodshed. That is the
11 last thing that should happen. But can you imagine the life of the
12 people in Croatia as described by Dr. Ocic? For example, after these
13 incidents that were shown on TV, people took to the streets unarmed at
14 night, they were not patrolling. We were just safe-guarding our houses,
15 or villages. Police came and the next day there was this policeman who
16 was taking down the names. He is a Serb. It is not his fault that he
17 was born a Serb but he does not feel as one. He was taking down the
18 names of those who walked the street quietly on minus five and did not
19 sleep. We were very glad he was doing this. You can imagine our lives.
20 And that is why we decided at the last evening's Municipal Board meeting
21 we will organise a protest rally in Vukovar, in the centre of Vukovar,
22 12.00 Saturday, firstly to support the measures of the Presidency, but it
23 will also be a protest against measures of the YU Presidency not being
24 implemented strongly enough, because the weapons that have been
25 distributed to civilians are not handed over and the army needs to have
1 control of it. What good is it to us if it is handed over when it can
2 soon be given back to the same people who had handed it over."
3 MR. STRINGER:
4 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, there's a reference there to a Dr. Ocic. Could
5 you tell the Chamber just briefly who that person is.
6 A. Dr. Caslav Ocic is a Serb from Dalj. He hails from Dalj. He was
7 a full professor at the school of economics in Belgrade, and, to date, he
8 is a full member of the Serbian academy of arts and sciences. In the
9 SBWS government, he was the minister of foreign affairs. It is when the
10 government was established a few months after this broadcast.
11 Q. And in terms of the time of this broadcast, you've referred to
12 organising a rally in Vukovar on this coming Saturday. That's what you
13 said in this clip we just saw. Does that help you recall or does that
14 tell you what would be the time-frame in which you were appearing on this
15 television show?
16 A. I think it is easy to know the date because as for the rally
17 which took place in Vukovar now I heard that it was on Saturday, and you
18 referred previously to a news article. This broadcast had to do with
19 information we received on Croatia's arming, and I simply expressed a
20 concern harboured by the Serb people following that information.
21 Q. Would this television broadcast have been taking place in
22 January or February 1991? It's referring to the establishment of the
23 SNC. Koncarevic and Petrovic are being identified publicly with it.
24 That suggests that in fact we're talking about January to February, the
25 early part of 1991. Would you agree with me on that?
1 A. We did not see eye to eye on many issues here, but quite
2 surprisingly, I agree on this one with you.
3 Q. Thank you. And we know about the concerns. We understand the
4 concerns that you -- and -- you shared with the others concerning the
5 events in Croatia, the arming of the population that you were aware of.
6 But what you've said here, as of January or February 1993 -- sorry, 1991,
7 you've already reached the point or the view that a peaceful co-existence
8 was no longer possible. Is that how you saw it as of January, February,
10 A. Obviously you were not either listening carefully to what I said
11 or you are distorting facts intentionally. I said that no co-existence
12 was possible under those conditions, and we asked for the assistance of
13 the Presidency to have the circumstances changed, to have the arms
14 withdrawn. And given those conditions, I said I was an optimist and in
15 favour of co-existence. But under the conditions when 70.000 automatic
16 rifles have been distributed to our neighbours, consider it yourself and
17 tell us whether co-existence is possible. If a party distributes
18 thousands of rifles to members of a single ethnic group, well, what then?
19 Q. And just to be clear, the --
20 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Stringer -- sorry, Mr. Zivanovic.
21 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I noticed that Mr. Hadzic mentioned two
22 times "80.000" of rifles. In line 24, it was said "70.000." And in the
23 line -- line 25, just "thousands."
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, could you confirm that with
25 Mr. Hadzic.
1 MR. STRINGER:
2 Q. Mr. Hadzic, you've heard the exchange. Could you say again how
3 many automatic rifles were distributed?
4 A. Only the batch that was imported from Hungary contained 80.000.
5 It was broadcast on TV. But there probably was more except that the army
6 did not have that other information.
7 Q. And going back to your previous answer, you said:
8 "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency to have the
9 circumstances changed."
10 And just to be clear, we're talking about the Presidency of the
11 SFRY, not the Presidency of Croatia, for example?
12 A. Yes, the SFRY Presidency. I also said that we were going to
13 attend a rally in support of the Presidency to provide our support to the
14 measures they proposed but did not implement.
15 MR. STRINGER: Now, if we could please go to another clip from
16 this. This is at 24 minutes, 46, until 25 minutes, 39. Page 12 English,
17 page 11 B/C/S.
18 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. STRINGER:
21 Q. Okay. Now, in this one, Mr. Hadzic, I believe you identified
22 this gentleman yesterday we see on the screen. This is Mr. Petrovic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And here he is asked about if there's some -- if there's no more
25 Yugoslavia and then what?
1 MR. STRINGER: And so, in any event, let's -- let's start this.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Serbian people, as it seems, will
4 have to take a very firm position in that moment and commence unification
5 into one joint state which I have been calling Serbian country for about
6 half a year now. Serbian country singular, not Serbian countries, as
7 some might say, because then every territory that would join this new
8 Serbian state at some point, would have a possibility to say I'm out of
9 here now as I'm only one of the territories of this state, once the worst
10 is over. Therefore, a clear definition of Serbian state borders should
11 be defined right from the beginning."
12 MR. STRINGER: And then let's play the next clip.
13 Q. And then I'll come back to you with some questions Mr. Hadzic.
14 MR. STRINGER: The next one is at 51 minutes, 54, to 53 minutes,
15 14, of this exhibit, 1956. Page 24 English, page 23 B/C/S.
16 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: As so as we bring this
19 evening's broadcast to an end, let us just ask Mr. Koncarevic, secretary
20 general of the Serbian National Council for Slavonia, Baranja, and
21 Western Srem, how do you see -- what is the solution for Serbs in
23 "Ilija Koncarevic: I'm somewhat limited by the views of the
24 Serbian National Council in this evening's broadcast. We have today
25 adopted a position as regards the solution to this problem that we shall
1 forward to the Presidency. There is disputed and undisputed territory in
2 Croatia. The undisputed territory is the territory where Croats were the
3 ethnic majority before the beginning of World War I. The undisputed,
4 that is disputable territory, is the one in Krajina and Western Srem,
5 Baranja, Slavonia, and Moslavina. We propose that Yugoslav Presidencies
6 suspend the authority of the Croatian parliament and Croatian leadership
7 in all territories where Serbian people live. This is because elementary
8 human rights of Serbian people have been jeopardised and one has the
9 elementary right to live. This right has been threatened."
10 MR. STRINGER:
11 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, a few minutes ago in answering one of my
12 questions, you raised, you said - this is at page 17, line 22:
13 "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency to have the
14 circumstances changed, to have the arms withdrawn."
15 Now, what Mr. Koncarevic has just referred to here is the same
16 thing. True? He is referring also to an appeal or a request to be
17 directed to the Presidency of the SFRY?
18 A. I know what I said. As for Koncarevic's words, I do not wish to
19 provide any particular interpretation of it. We could all hear what he
21 Q. Right. My question is that the request to the SFRY Presidency,
22 the Presidency that he refers to here, is the same request that you had
23 in mind a couple of minutes ago when you answered my previous question.
25 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
1 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. It should be clarified whether the same
2 request or to the same organ. Or if it is the same request, I would ask
3 for the reference.
4 MR. STRINGER: Could we have 65 ter 1939.04, please. It is
5 tab number -- I apologise, Mr. President. I'm going to need a second to
6 find the tab number for it.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. STRINGER: 743.
9 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
10 MR. STRINGER: And just to -- while that's coming up in
11 responding to counsel's objection, the organ that I'm talking about here
12 is the Presidency of the SFRY. That's the only one that I've asked
13 about, and that's what this is about.
14 MR. ZIVANOVIC: That's okay.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
16 MR. STRINGER:
17 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we looked at this yesterday. You said you didn't
18 know anything about it. I'd like to take another look at it now based
19 upon the remarks that we've seen from the television programme. On the
20 television programme, Mr. Koncarevic refers to disputable and
21 indisputable territory in Croatia. Would you agree with me, sir, that
22 what he is describing there actually corresponds quite nicely with
23 paragraphs 1.1 and 1.2 of the document that's now in front of you?
24 A. That is what he and Koncarevic wrote about in the document.
25 Sorry, he and Petrovic.
1 Q. All right. And when he says, "the SNC today adopted a position
2 as regards the solution to this problem that we shall forward to the
3 Presidency," he is referring to this document. True?
4 A. I don't know that. I said what my position was and what my
5 thoughts were on what the Presidency had to be told. It had to do with
6 the problem of the Croatian people arming themselves and that is why
7 there was the rally in Vukovar. As for Koncarevic and Petrovic, they
8 lived in Serbia and they did not have the same problems I did and the
9 problems my family had living in Croatia. As for their political talk
10 and position, I did not get involved in it. They were their personal
12 Q. Well, in fact, you shared their opinions, Mr. Hadzic. And as you
13 just said a few minutes ago in your testimony, quite spontaneously and on
14 your own, "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency." The fact is
15 what you were referring to is this very document. True?
16 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry --
17 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
18 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Where did he say that, that he referred to this
19 document? May we see that, please.
20 MR. STRINGER: I'm not claiming the witness referred to the
21 document, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: I agree, Mr. Stringer. Please continue.
23 MR. STRINGER:
24 Q. Should I say the -- give you the question again, Mr. Hadzic?
25 A. Yes, please go ahead. Repeat the question.
1 Q. In your last answer you had said:
2 "As for their political talk and position, I did not get involved
3 in it. They were their personal opinions."
4 And then my question was:
5 "Well, in fact you shared their opinions, Mr. Hadzic. And as you
6 just said a few minutes ago in your testimony, quite spontaneously and on
7 your own, you asked for the assistance of the Presidency" -- sorry. You
8 said, "We asked for the assistance of the Presidency."
9 And what you're referring to there is this request that's in this
10 document that's referred to by Koncarevic on the television show. It's
11 the same request; correct?
12 A. No, it's not. I didn't know about that request and that letter.
13 I said then very clearly, clearly and spontaneously, that we asked for
14 the Presidency's help for everybody to disarm. When I said "everybody,"
15 I meant that -- I meant by that Croatia, which had armed, but also those
16 Serbs who had obtained arms so that life together would be possible. As
17 for your conclusions here, they have nothing to do with what I said.
18 Q. In his remarks, Mr. Koncarevic also proposes that the
19 Yugoslav Presidency suspend the authority of the Croatian Sabor. And we
20 see that in fact that request or demand is contained in this document at
21 paragraph 2, line 2, that goes to the Presidency of the SFRY.
22 A. Well, I can repeat it for the tenth time now that I don't know
23 anything about that document. I'm seeing it now for the first time.
24 Actually, I saw it for the first time when I received Petrovic's book.
25 Q. But on the 3rd of February, 1991, the date of this document, you
1 were a member of the Serbian National Council; correct?
2 A. I was a member as of January the 7th, but I didn't have any
3 meetings between January 3rd and February 7th, in order to reach any
4 decisions on anything.
5 Q. Well, actually, you're meeting with the gentlemen here publicly
6 and on television. You're hearing their views. You knew precisely what
7 the views of the Serbian National Council were as they've just been set
8 out by Messrs. Petrovic and Koncarevic. True?
9 A. You heard the official anchor announce me as the president of the
10 Social Democratic Party of the municipality of Vukovar and a member of
11 the council, and that is why -- at the time I was representing the views
12 of the party as well as the Serbian people, my friends and neighbours,
13 who lived there. I did not get involved in high-ranking politics or the
14 historical rights of either peoples, which is what Petrovic and
15 Koncarevic were talking about. And to tell you most sincerely, even now
16 I don't know what they referred to, these historical events, which I
17 never actually even later felt necessary to look up.
18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we again tender 65 ter 1939.04. We
19 recognise that the witness won't agree that he knows anything about it or
20 otherwise associate himself with it. But we feel that in the video
21 footage, Petrovic and Koncarevic have quite clearly authenticated the
22 document. The document corresponds completely to Koncarevic's statements
23 in particular. They are both members the SNC. Mr. Hadzic is a member of
24 the SNC. In our view, they are clearly setting out what is the policy,
25 the objective of the SNC as set out in this document, and we think that
1 it's sufficiently relevant and authentic to be admitted into evidence.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I would object again. There is no foundation
3 to -- to admit this document into evidence because the witness doesn't
4 know anything about this particular document. He's confronted with it
5 and it is in the transcript, but it is not reason for -- to -- to admit
6 it into evidence.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: The objection is overruled. The document is
9 admitted and marked.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P3214. Thank you.
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
12 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 1005, which is P53. This
13 is a video. And we'll wait for the interpreters to tell us when they're
15 THE INTERPRETER: We're ready.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Brothers and sisters, I greet you
18 with our tradition greeting, God help us all. May God help you. As a
19 president of the Municipal Board which you belong to, it is my duty to
20 say something about our Vukovar Municipal Board, even though there are
21 many topics we're going to discuss later on. Our party was established
22 on 10th June last year in Vukovar and 19 boards have been established
23 since then. Today the party has 21 boards. And I congratulate you on
24 establishing your two. We have faced many problems in our party. You
25 are familiar with them and you know who caused them. However, we managed
1 to get over them. And we should thank or current leadership for uniting
2 us and helping us achieve unity. We are stronger and united now. As a
3 people, we have never looked to God, not left, not right. We always knew
4 that we were stronger together and we have relied on that. And that's
5 why we always sang that song, We are stronger together. I would like to
6 tell you now something about the programme and what we discussed at the
7 beginning. As you know, present at our rallies, our main goal was united
8 Yugoslavia, united people's army. These are our goals even today. We
9 have remained on the path of Saint Sava, and I wish you all the best for
10 this holiday today. As a great Serbian academician Matija Betkovic would
11 say, Saint Sava walked the road and everyone barked at him. But let's
12 for get that, let's follow his road. I would rather say a few words
13 about our current problems because I believe it is not the time for big
14 speeches. It is time for work. We Serbs are free-thinking democrats by
15 our own conviction. We even had radicals before the war here, but where
16 are we now? We have found ourselves in a situation where we have to
17 divide into two parties due to the politics of one nation. To divide
18 into Serbs and Croats, for us as a people, it comes as a shock. We are
19 not nationalists. Our views are boarder but we have to accept this as a
20 fact and organise ourselves. I believe and I am sure that everyone who
21 watched TV two nights ago felt just like I did. This is how I am
22 thinking. Not even 80.000 Serbs can we manage to find in the world and
23 persuade them to talk badly about other people. And others have been
24 given 80.000 machine-guns and are keeping them so that they could use
25 them against us. This is ridiculous. 1941 is happening again. 1945 is
1 happening again. Then in 1971 we thought we would forgive them. It
2 would not happen again. But I'm telling you now, very responsibly, if
3 the Croatian people do not renounce their Ustasha's publicly, we will
4 propose through our Serbian National Council to cut all ties between
5 Serbs and Croats. Our perphidious policy led since the 1850s since the
6 time of Ante Starcevic has reached final stage now. They were not so
7 perphidious. Had they led their perphidious policy for another couple of
8 years, the Serb people would not have managed to unite. They can do
9 nothing to us now on a regional legal, on a republican and federal level.
10 They are facing problem. Let me tell you why: Because we are
11 democratic. We have thought about things that they had said and we
12 thought whether or not they really meant it. However, I thank them for
13 that. We're united and there will be no division within the party. We
14 understood that people should talk but there can be no dialogue with
15 them. I would not talk about this anymore. I would like to invite you
16 to join the Social Democratic Party. You don't have to become members of
17 the party but just follow its policy and participate in its activities.
18 Three days ago, we had a meeting in Trpinja with intellectuals. Well, we
19 call them intellectuals but, actually, they were businessmen of the
20 Vukovar municipality. We expected -- we invited 50 or 60 of them but
21 some 200 of them turned up. It means that people who had not been
22 organised before realised where they belong. We told them that a huge
23 number of Serbian people do not belong to the Social Democratic Party,
24 many of them belong to the Social Democratic Party, but the remaining
25 irrelevant part of them ..."
1 THE INTERPRETER: Text unclear, interpreter notes.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... here I have it in my pocket. I
4 have prepared some conclusions that were reached at that meeting, but I'd
5 rather not read them to you. It will be published in all newspapers
6 tomorrow or the day after. I would just like to tell you a few words of
7 what the conclusions were. It was concluded ..."
8 THE INTERPRETER: Text unclear, interpreter notes.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... support of the Vukovar
11 municipality for the recognition of the Serbian National Council. More
12 importantly, it was decided that the board of representatives for the
13 protection of Serbian national interest should be established within the
14 Vukovar Municipal Assembly. We do represent the Social Democratic Party,
15 but, above all, we have interests of the Serbian people in mind. I beg
16 you, well, I'm not begging you, but I ask you to think about the
17 interests of the Serbian people before anything else. I would like to
18 finish this speech with the words: God help us, and he will."
19 MR. STRINGER:
20 Q. Mr. Hadzic, at the beginning of the video, not at the beginning
21 but at -- an earlier part, you make a reference to Saint Sava and wishing
22 all of those people there all the best for this holiday today. Is that
23 Saint Sava Day which I believe falls in late January?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So this is -- is it the 27th of January, 1991, when this speech
1 took place?
2 A. Probably, yes.
3 Q. And we heard in this speech two references to the
4 Serbian National Council. I suggest to you, sir, that you were clearly
5 supporting and advocating the Serbian National Council as a body through
6 which you were acting. Isn't it true that in late January of 1991 you
7 were participating and advocating the Serbian National Council to other
8 Serbs in the region?
9 A. The Serbian National Council was founded in early January, so
10 there was no need for me to speak anything against it in late January.
11 Q. And in fact in referring to it, you referred to it as "our
12 Serbian National Council."
13 Mr. Hadzic, you knew precisely what the Serbian National Council
14 stood for, and you were participating and advocating that it act on the
15 behalf of all Serbs. True?
16 A. As for your assertion that I knew what it was standing for, and I
17 did know that about the Serbian National Council, but that is not what
18 you are claiming in this letter by Petrovic. It's not the same thing. I
19 thought that the Serbian National Council was in favour of preserving the
20 interests of the Serbian people. We are a people who went through
21 genocide in World War II, and I believed that after this, if you
22 understood it from my speech, that at the time it was announced that
23 Croatia had armed itself with 80.000 automatic rifles, and this was a
24 consequence of that. And for that reason, I would like to ask you to
25 keep that in mind and keep that context in mind when you are discussing
1 this particular footage.
2 Q. You were on the television programme with Messrs. Petrovic and
3 Koncarevic, you were a member of the Serbian National Council at the time
4 of the television conversation, and you heard Koncarevic articulating
5 very clearly what the SNC's objectives were. So you knew fully what its
6 objectives were. You knew fully what the SNC was about, as set out on
7 the television show by Koncarevic, as well as in this document that was
8 sent to the SFRY Presidency in early February.
9 A. I've already said that I understood Koncarevic's speech as
10 something that was personal, and we were there, each of us, in our
11 private capacity, as individuals. What we should keep in mind here is
12 that this was an attempt here at peaceful resolution of the problem
13 without war and without any suffering.
14 MR. STRINGER: Could we please go back to the clip of Koncarevic.
15 Again, it's tab 999, P1956. It's at 51 minutes, 54. Page 24 of the
16 English, 23 of the B/C/S. It's my last question on this, Mr. President,
17 and I'll move on.
18 We'll wait for the interpreters.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we're ready.
20 MR. STRINGER: Okay.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: And so as we bring this
23 evening's broadcast to an end, let us just ask Mr. Koncarevic, secretary
24 general of the Serbian National Council for Slavonia, Baranja, and
25 Western Srem, how do you see -- what is the solution for Serbs in
2 "Ilija Koncarevic: I am somewhat limited by the views of the
3 Serbian National Council in this evening's broadcast. We have today
4 adopted a position as regards the solution to this problem that we shall
5 forward to the Presidency. There is disputable and indisputable
6 territory in Croatia. The indisputable territory is the territory where
7 the Croats were an ethnic majority before the beginning of World War I."
8 MR. STRINGER:
9 Q. Mr. Hadzic, what Mr. Koncarevic makes clear here is that he is
10 not expressing his personal views. He is referring expressly to the
11 views of the Serbian National Council. That's my suggestion. He says:
12 "I'm somewhat limited by the views of the Serbian National
13 Council in this evenings's broadcast. We have today adopted a
14 position ..."
15 So he is not speaking about his personal views. He's in fact
16 expressing the policy of the SNC of which you are a member; correct?
17 A. Of course not. That is not correct. We did not even meet that
18 day. Mr. Koncarevic here is trying to increase the reputation of the
19 Serbian National Council which was just being established, and it was
20 using it for his own purposes. What he was saying is that he now had an
21 organisation to back him, which, at that time, was just in the process of
22 being established, so it wasn't even meeting at the time. All I wanted
23 to do at that time was jump up and slap him. But I wasn't his father or
24 any figure who could be able to tell him that he was lying.
25 Q. Well, actually as it turned out, Mr. Koncarevic, who we see here
1 on the screen, turned out to be the president of the
2 Great National Assembly of the SBWS when it began issuing laws in
3 September of 1991; correct?
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, if the witness could repeat his last
6 sentence. Here in transcript state:
7 "But I wasn't his father or any figure who could be able to tell
8 him that he was lying."
9 I think that he said something else in B/C/S.
10 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Stringer, could you ask the witness to
12 MR. STRINGER:
13 Q. Could you please do so, Mr. Hadzic. Yeah.
14 A. Yes. I said I wasn't his father or his instructor, a person
15 bringing him up. The other thing was I wanted to jump up and slap him
16 and tell him he was lying.
17 Q. You just asserted that what Mr. Koncarevic was doing was trying
18 to increase the reputation of the Serbian National Council. In fact,
19 that's exactly what you were doing when you gave the speech that we just
20 saw on Saint Sava Day in which you were out there advocating and telling
21 people what the SNC was going to do for them. True?
22 A. Well, that's why the Serbian National Council was founded, to
23 take care of the overall interests of the Serbian people, and for us not
24 to permit for the worst thing to happen to us, what I referred to. In
25 history this is something that is well-known. It was supposed to be a
1 non-party, above-party organisation, at least that's how I understood it
2 when I was there at that founding assembly. It was supposed to be an
3 umbrella organisation.
4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, it's a couple of minutes early, but
5 I'm going to be making a big change in topic at this point, so it may be
6 a good time.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer. We'll take the first
9 Court adjourned.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
12 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.
13 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 If we can please have tab 388. This is L1.
15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we're going to go back to some of the laws that were
16 in the Official Gazettes of the SBWS as we were doing yesterday at the
17 end of the day.
18 MR. STRINGER: And I'd -- I asked that we go first -- or next, I
19 should say, to the Law on the Government of the Serb District of the SBWS
20 which is at page 29 of the English, and at the moment I do not have a
21 B/C/S page reference to give to the Registrar. I apologise for that.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. STRINGER: Page 10 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. And I don't want to spend too much time on this, Mr. Hadzic, but
25 at Article 1 there, we see -- well, let me ask you this first: This is
1 passed on 9th of October, 1991. I think the ones we discussed yesterday
2 were passed on the 25th of September. This law passed at the 3rd Session
3 on the 9th of October, 1991. Do you know where that government session
4 would have been held?
5 A. The interpretation I got was "the government," whereas on the
6 document, I can see the word "assembly."
7 I believe that you misspoke. Did you mean the government or
8 actually the assembly?
9 Q. It may be that you're looking at a different law than -- than I'm
10 looking at. I'm looking at the Law on the Government of the
11 Serb District of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. It is ...
12 A. Yes. But your question was about that government session.
13 However, I can see in the document that it was an assembly session on the
14 9th of October. So I suppose that your question should be where the
15 assembly session took place.
16 Q. You're right, I misspoke. Assembly session. Was that in
17 Beli Manastir?
18 A. I believe that all the assembly sessions were held in
19 Beli Manastir, so this one should not have been an exception.
20 Q. And according to this law, then, the government of the SBWS -
21 this is Article 1 - as the organ of executive authority shall carry out
22 the duties as specified by the constitutional law and shall be
23 responsible for the Great National Assembly for the discharge of such
25 Mr. Hadzic, just so we're clear, so you, as prime minister, were
1 the head of the executive part of the government, that is, the
2 government -- the part that was responsible for carrying out the duties
3 set out in the -- in the law?
4 A. That's how it was meant. However, I have to emphasise that all
5 of this had been prepared for some normal time for peacetime. In that
6 area throughout 1991, we had a military administration and that continued
7 in 1992. Those decisions were prepared for the moment when civilian
8 authorities would be able to take over in peacetime. However, all of
9 these decisions were passed during war time.
10 Q. And in Article 2, then we see that the government is to conduct
11 the policy of the SBWS and that in item 3 it had the power to adopt
12 decrees, decisions, and other acts for enforcing the laws.
13 You recall, Mr. Hadzic, that in fact during this period, 1991
14 included, you actually did adopt decrees, decision, the government did,
15 pursuant to Article 2 here?
16 A. I remember that the government did make proposals and adopted
17 some things, but most of the laws were adopted by the assembly, and the
18 assembly was the only body that was allowed to pass any laws because it
19 was the legislative body.
20 Q. Well, tell us what was the difference between the law passed by
21 the Great National Assembly in a decree or decision here that is referred
22 to in item 3? Can you give an example of something the government could
23 adopt a decree or decision about?
24 A. I can't remember a single case. There were such cases. I can't
25 remember them. Those were decrees but I can't remember any one of them.
1 Q. You signed off on decisions appointing people to positions, for
2 example, didn't you?
3 A. I could do that only based on the government's decisions.
4 Q. My question was: You signed off on decisions appointing people
5 to positions. Isn't that true?
6 A. I can't remember. But I do think that I signed off every
7 government's decision or everything that was in keeping with the
8 government's decisions. I can't remember that I signed anything
9 independently of my own will.
10 Q. The next law in the Gazette is the Law on Measures in the state
11 of emergency and we're going to skip over that one. I'm going to skip
12 over that one, going to skip over the Law on Courts, and we're going to
13 go to the decision on the Territorial Defence of the SBWS joining SFRY
14 armed forces.
15 MR. STRINGER: This is page 62 of the English, 20 of -- page 20
16 of the B/C/S.
17 Q. Now, this is dated the 10th of October, 1991. And we see in
18 Article 1 that the Territorial Defence of the SBWS is hereby joining with
19 SFRY armed forces and becoming part of it.
20 Article 2:
21 "The government of the Serb District of SBWS is authorised to
22 take all measures necessary to execute this decision, in co-operation
23 with the Federal Secretariat of National Defence."
24 Mr. Hadzic, can we agree that Article 2, the reference to the
25 Federal Secretariat of National Defence, is indeed the federal body of
1 the SFRY, the SFRY Federal Secretariat for National Defence?
2 A. Yes. At that time we were part of the SFRY.
3 Q. And, really, this decision here is -- is simply doing what the
4 SFRY -- let me start again.
5 The decision is making clear what really the SFRY law already
6 provides, which is that the Territorial Defence is a part of the SFRY
7 armed forces under the Law on All People's Defence?
8 A. That was under the law. The armed forces consisted of the JNA
9 and the Territorial Defence. In wartime, they were one and the same.
10 Q. Now, a moment ago, Mr. Hadzic, I asked you about appointments. I
11 do want to step off this document for a few moments and ask you something
12 related to appointments but for a different time-period.
13 In your testimony on direct examination, on the 8th of July,
14 transcript page 9517, you were shown an exhibit, D117. I believe it was
15 the text of a -- of a news article related to the appointment of
16 Ilija Kojic as the commander of the Territorial Defence. Do you recall
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And then at page 9519 of the transcript, you said that
20 Janko Milakovic was elected at the proposal of Ilija Kojic; correct?
21 A. I remember that Ilija Kojic suggested that Janko Milakovic should
22 be appointed to that position.
23 MR. STRINGER: If we could please have tab 22.
24 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, I think that the name of -- okay. Okay.
25 It is corrected. Sorry.
1 MR. STRINGER: Apologise. Let's skip over tab 22, which was
2 D117, that's the document I just asked Mr. Hadzic about, and move to
3 tab 753. 65 ter 1939.14.
4 Q. As that's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, this is one of the documents we
5 reproduced from Mr. Petrovic's book.
6 MR. STRINGER: Sorry. This should be 65 ter 1939.14. Yeah.
7 Q. Do you recall, Mr. Hadzic, that it was -- it was you as chairman
8 of the -- what this document says National Council of Serbs that you
9 signed off on the appointment to establish a Territorial Defence Staff on
10 the 14th of July and that Mr. Kojic was, at that time, appointed as
11 commander of the Territorial Defence Staff. Do you recall that?
12 A. I remember that he was both proposed and appointed, but I don't
13 remember having signed anything. I may have, but I can't remember.
14 Q. As of this time - 14th of July, 1991 - you were the chairman or
15 the president of the SNC, the Serb National Council; correct?
16 A. Formally. I was appointed on the 26th of June in Backa Palanka.
17 Q. And then in that capacity on this day, you appointed Mr. Kojic to
18 be the commander of the TO; correct?
19 A. It was the Serbian National Council that appointed him. I was
20 nothing more than its president.
21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender that into evidence.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P3215. Thank you.
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
25 MR. STRINGER: If we could now have tab 754, which is
1 65 ter number 1939.15.
2 Q. And at roughly the same time here, mid-July 1991, did -- well,
3 was Mr. Milakovic here, as indicated, appointed as the secretary of the
4 regional secretariat of the interior called the SUP and that was also
5 done through you and the SNC?
6 A. Yes, the SNC did that. But I don't remember having signed that
8 Q. But in terms of what's indicated in the document here, you don't
9 disagree with this?
10 A. Please bear with me. I need to see what's in it.
11 I know that Janko Milakovic was appointed as the SUP secretary
12 but I don't remember that the decision was passed at the assembly
13 session. Also I don't remember that I signed the document to that effect
14 but I know that he was appointed and that he had been put forward by
15 Ilija Kojic.
16 Q. And, actually, this document is dated as the -- the same day, the
17 14th of July, that the Kojic document is -- the Kojic appointment that we
18 just saw. The Milakovic is done through the SNC then?
19 A. I'm not sure, but I should have thought so, yes. I'm confused by
20 the -- by what he said and that he was nominated by somebody called Ante.
21 I don't know any such person.
22 Q. I apologise, Mr. Hadzic. I'm not seeing what you're -- what
23 you're referring to there, Ante?
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Your Honours, I think we should move to the
1 private session in -- at this moment.
2 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
3 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
19 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
20 MR. STRINGER:
21 Q. In any event, Mr. Hadzic, the question is simply whether as
22 indicated here this gentleman, Mr. Milakovic, was appointed to this
23 position, secretary of the SUP, on the 14th of July by or through the
24 Serbian National Council?
25 A. It says so in here. I said the other thing as well, but that's
1 what it says in here.
2 MR. STRINGER: We would tendered that, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned exhibit P3216.
5 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thanks.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.
7 MR. STRINGER: Tab 757, please, which is 65 ter 1939.18. This is
8 another one from the Petrovic book.
9 Q. As it's coming up, Mr. Hadzic, I can tell you it's
10 23rd of August, 1991. Proclamation of general mobilisation. And,
11 actually -- or, I should say, and, actually, this one in the original
12 language version appears to be above your handwritten signature. Do you
13 recognise that?
14 A. I'm not sure that this is my signature. But I am not denying the
15 fact that this proclamation was published.
16 Q. In your direct examination at page 9651, you were asked if you
17 remembered that the government of SBWS in the summer of 1991 issued a
18 declaration on general mobilisation. And you said that you did, indeed,
19 remember that.
20 A. Yes, and I explained. I said that those people had left the
21 territory, their houses stayed behind, and some members of their family
22 members, including the elderly parents, they lived care free in Serbia
23 and their houses and their family members were protected by their
24 neighbours, who were not happy, and that they insisted that those people
25 should come back and defend their own homes. I believe that you will
1 remember that I've already said that.
2 Q. And just for context, this is -- this is taking place about three
3 weeks or so after the operation at Dalj in which the first of the towns
4 was, as you would say, liberated. And so the mobilisation here is -- is
5 going out, I would suggest, because in the weeks following the liberation
6 of Dalj, conditions were better for people who had left to come back.
7 Would -- would you agree with that?
8 A. That had nothing to do with the liberation of Dalj. It applied
9 to the entire territory. We met in Dalj by chance because there were
10 adequate premises there.
11 MR. STRINGER: Could we have tab 205, please, which is P00166.
12 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is a "Politika" article published on the
13 24th of August, 1991, and it's reporting on the general mobilisation.
14 And here it says:
15 "The government of SAO Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem
16 yesterday declared general mobilisation. The proclamation signed by
17 Prime Minister Goran Hadzic reads as follows ..." and then the text.
18 A. I believe that this is the same, the only difference being that
19 this is a newspaper article.
20 Q. I would agree with you on that, sir. My point here is what's
21 indicated here is in fact a proclamation. The document was signed by
22 you, and so I'd suggest that in fact, as we've seen in the earlier
23 document, you personally issued the general mobilisation in your capacity
24 as prime minister, as what's indicated here, even though you were
25 prime minister-elect at the time.
1 A. I don't understand your assertion. I signed this as the
2 conclusion from a meeting that I had with government members. I don't
3 know if this is my signature at all, but I do remember that decision on
4 mobilisation and I explained why it had been passed. I already said that
5 I'm not contesting this document at all.
6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, then we would tender 1939.18.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Admitted and marked.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Shall be assigned Exhibit P3217. Thank you.
9 MR. STRINGER: Could I have just one moment, Mr. President. I
11 Thank you. The next exhibit is tab 763, 65 ter 1939.24, again
12 from the Petrovic book.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, this is what's called:
14 "An appeal of the defence commander for AO, Autonomous District,
15 Baranja, Slavonia, and Western Srem last call to battle.
16 25th September is the last deadline for return of all men fit for
18 MR. STRINGER: And we can ask the Registrar to move to the last
19 page of it, page 5 of the English. Apologies. Page 4 of the English.
20 Q. What we see here is that this is above the name of Ilija Kojic.
21 And my question is whether you recall this, Mr. Hadzic, that as a result
22 of or as a follow-up to the mobilisation order that we just looked at
23 that went out in late August, the 24th of August, there was a subsequent
24 call on the part of Mr. Kojic, who is indicated here as defence commander
25 of the autonomous district, for able-bodied men to return and to take
1 part in the hostilities. Do you recall this?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. You said that Mr. Kojic was injured and left the -- the theatre,
4 the -- the area of SBWS in early October 1991. What was he doing during
5 the few weeks prior to that, say, around the date of this,
6 22nd of September?
7 A. He was one of the candidates for minister of defence.
8 Q. We were given that you said, "He was one of the candidates for
9 minister of defence" of -- and I take it that that means that --
10 A. No. Actually, not one of. He was a candidate and he was
11 actually acting minister of defence before his appointment.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
13 the date he placed at the very end of the sentence. We did not hear it.
14 MR. STRINGER:
15 Q. Mr. Hadzic, could you repeat the date that you say -- that you
16 gave at the end of your answer.
17 A. The 25th of September, when the Great National Assembly sat. But
18 even before that, it was general knowledge that he would be the minister
19 of defence.
20 Q. He was sort of like a minister of defence-elect, like you were
21 the prime minister-elect, if you will?
22 A. Precisely.
23 MR. STRINGER: Could we now please have tab 333, which is L38.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Hadzic, we've -- you talked about this document already
25 in your direct examination. These are the minutes of a government
1 session held in Erdut on the 19th of November, 1991.
2 And before I ask you about the document, I wanted to ask you --
3 you gave -- you testified in your direct examination that the secretary,
4 who I believe was Mr. Pejakovic, who was the person who actually made the
5 minutes, he remained in Dalj even though the government moved to Erdut at
6 some point. Is that how it was?
7 A. Yes, that's how it was.
8 Q. So if it indicates in the upper left-hand corner here, it says,
9 "Dalj, 20 November 1991," is that indicating that in fact Mr. Pejakovic
10 made the minutes in Dalj on the day after the meeting?
11 A. Yes, that is obvious, at least to me.
12 Q. And then the meeting itself occurred in Erdut?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now at this meeting were yourself, Dr. Hadzic, Ilija Petrovic,
15 other members of the government. Absent was Ilija Kojic. And then
16 present also was Sava Stupar and Radovan Stojicic, among others. And,
17 again, just to remind ourselves, this is the 19th of November, so the
18 fall of Vukovar, I'd suggest, is imminent. Actually, it's already fallen
19 on the previous day, the 18th; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And turning to page 2 of the English, the agenda is item 1 is
22 "for the adoption of the draft Law on Temporary Territorial Organisation
23 of the Serbian District of SBWS and temporary local administration."
24 And then item 2 is the report on the military and political
1 And then item 3 for an activity plan.
2 And then in the minutes there, the discussion on item 1,
3 Mr. Susa, who was the minister of justice, briefed those present on the
4 draft Law on Temporary Territorial Organisation. The question was raised
5 whether or not Ilok should have the status of a municipality, and then
6 also it was stated that because of the political situation, the seat of
7 Osijek municipality should be temporarily located in Tenja.
8 So what's happening here, Mr. Hadzic, is that on the day after
9 the fall of Vukovar, the government has come together in session in order
10 to formalise or adopt legislation that would formalise the demarkation of
11 the SBWS territory. True?
12 A. I cannot exactly confirm that because I do not understand it
13 precisely. But you can see what it is that we discussed. It was on the
14 agenda: Current issues.
15 Q. And the issue on the agenda was to actually address the question
16 of what would be the territory now of this district, SBWS, now that
17 Croatian armed forces had capitulated in Vukovar. It was in your hands
18 and the hands of the Serb side. So now it was about how to follow up on
19 that by identifying the territory?
20 A. Well, it did not happen solely because of Vukovar. What is
21 discussed here is temporary or provisional territorial organisation.
22 There was a question of Ilok and whether it would be a municipality and
23 that the seat of the Osijek municipality be in Tenja, et cetera. We were
24 not aware of the situation in Vukovar because the army was still there,
25 and we had no access to it at the time we discussed it.
1 Q. Well, you knew that Vukovar had fallen.
2 A. The whole world knew, including myself.
3 Q. Item 2 here on page 3 of the English has you briefing those
4 present about the current situation from the international point of view:
5 "Talks which had been held with the representatives of the
6 Republic of Serbia and the Yugoslav People's Army."
7 My first question, Mr. Hadzic, then, is: Who it that you spoke
8 to? "Representatives of the Republic of Serbia"?
9 A. As early as October, I was in intensive consultation with
10 international guests from international institutions, as well as with
11 representatives of the Republic of Serbia. At the time I had discussions
12 with a general by the name of Slavko Jovic concerning the arrival of
13 Blue Helmets. Before that --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
15 his last sentence.
16 MR. STRINGER:
17 Q. The interpreters missed the last part of your answer, your last
19 A. I was sent by the Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic, to meet
20 with the general, Mr. Jovic. I think I've explained that during
22 Q. Well, this says "representatives." It's in the plural. Were
23 there other representatives of Serbia that you were in touch with during
24 this period of time?
25 A. I was in contact with those experts who were versed in
1 international politics: Vasilje Krestic, Kosta Mihajlovic,
2 Milenko Kreca, Smilja Avramov [phoen].
3 Q. And then in terms of contacts or talks with the
4 Yugoslav People's Army?
5 A. I said a moment ago it was Major-General Slavko Jovic.
6 Q. And then in the same paragraph, moving down a few lines, the
7 government unanimously decided that the commander of the
8 Territorial Defence had their full confidence and that its status had
9 been established by the decision of the Great people's Assembly which
10 proclaimed the units of the Territorial Defence form a part of the
11 Yugoslav forces.
12 So here, Mr. Hadzic, the commander of the Territorial Defence who
13 is being referred to here is Radovan Stojicic?
14 A. Obviously we did not decide on that; we only provided our full
15 support because he had already been imposed on us, so to say. We merely
16 confirmed the de facto situation. We were not asked about it. However,
17 we did say that we were not against it. Even if we had been, there would
18 have been no point, in my view.
19 Q. Well, actually, it's different than that, Mr. Hadzic. You make
20 it sound as though were sort of reluctantly, grudgingly having to put up
21 with him. In fact, he was welcomed by you and he had your full support,
22 that is, he had the full support of your government; correct?
23 A. It could have been so or not, but it didn't change a thing. He
24 came as a federal representative, and he appropriated that position
25 independent of the government will. We could agree or disagree, but we
1 believed it to be better not to cause any trouble around that because
2 there would have been no point, and we did not have a reason to object.
3 Q. Can we agree that the government of the SBWS had full confidence
4 in Radovan Stojicic as its TO commander on the 19th of November, 1991?
5 A. As we can see in the conclusion, one might say so. But I would
6 rather say that we did not hold a grudge against him. There was nothing
7 we could object and there was no reason for us to do so.
8 Q. Well, why would you not have been happy about having him as your
9 TO commander? Things were in disarray when he arrived. He came and
10 sorted out your police and he came and sorted out your
11 Territorial Defence; isn't that true?
12 A. That is true. But he did all that of his own accord, without any
13 previous arrangements with us. It is true that he did that, yes.
14 Q. And you happily accepted his support and his work; correct?
15 A. Well, I don't know how happy we were, but we had to accept it.
16 MR. STRINGER: If we could please go back now to L1, the
17 Gazettes, tab 388. And now to the -- the Law on the
18 Temporary Territorial Organisation of the Serb Region of SBWS and the
19 Temporary Local Administration. It's at page 84 of the English; page 20
20 of the B/C/S at the bottom on the right.
21 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we were just looking at the government -- the minutes
22 of the government meeting on the 19th of November when your justice
23 minister, Mr. Susa, brought the draft Law on Territorial Organisation --
24 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
25 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, we don't have on the screen, on the left
1 side of the screen, the text that corresponds to the right side of the
3 MR. STRINGER: Sorry. It's page 29 of the B/C/S. Right, that's
4 my mistake. Page 29 of the B/C/S. Again, at the bottom on the right.
5 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Now it's correct.
6 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.
7 Q. And we see in the preamble, Mr. Hadzic, that this law was taken
8 up at the fifth regular session on the 22nd of November, 1991. So it's
9 three days after the government meeting in Erdut that we were discussing
11 So the question is whether the draft law that Mr. Susa brought to
12 the meeting of the government on the 19th of November is what we're
13 seeing here now in the Gazette as having been adopted by the assembly
14 three days later at its session on the 22nd of November.
15 A. From this place here, I can presume it was so, but I cannot be
16 100 per cent sure.
17 Q. As the justice minister, it was Mr. Susa who was, I would think,
18 at least among those who drafted proposed legislation to be presented to
19 the assembly for its consideration. Is that one of the roles he played?
20 A. I think so. But I think he was assisted by some experts from the
21 federal state that we were a part of. That is to say, the SFRY.
22 MR. STRINGER: Now, if we could go to Article 7 of this law.
23 Page 30 of the B/C/S; 85, English.
24 Q. And, actually, you can see in Article 6 as well, it's talking
25 about names of existing inhabited places being changed. That's in
1 Article 6. That they can't be changing the names until elections for the
2 district assembly are underway.
3 And then in Article 7 there's a reference to Executive Councils
4 and that's what I want to ask you about here. It says:
5 "Executive Councils of the municipalities, in agreement with the
6 Executive Councils of the local commune, determine the names of parts of
7 the inhabited place (street, squares) with the prior consent of the
8 ministry authorised in matters of town planning."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Could you just tell us briefly: What were the Executive Councils
12 referred to here?
13 A. Reference is made to the Executive Councils of municipalities and
14 local communes. At the time, there was no possibility to set up
15 assemblies in municipalities and local communes. Hence, the
16 Executive Councils were the executive branch in the respective communes
17 and municipalities.
18 Q. Thank you. And then moving to Article 10, here we see setting
19 out what in fact are or will be the municipalities in the Serb District:
20 "The municipalities in the Serb District are Vukovar,
21 Beli Manastir, Vinkovci, with temporary seat in Mirkovci, Dalj and
22 Osijek, with temporary seat in Tenja."
23 And then we see in Article 11, and it continues on for several
24 pages, a listing of the actual villages or settlements, towns within the
25 municipalities that fall within the territorial organisation of the SBWS.
1 Starting with Vukovar, continuing across page 87 of the English, to
2 Beli Manastir. Page 88, Vinkovci. Page 89, Dalj. And we don't have to
3 look at all of those right now. We're going to look at a few of them in
4 the moments to come.
5 So what's happening here, Mr. Hadzic, is that this being the
6 22nd of November, 1991, the Serbs had achieved military control over much
7 of the territorial that it was claiming for the Serb District. Can we
8 first agree on that: By the 22nd of November, the Serbs had achieved
9 military control over much of the territory that it was claiming for the
10 Serb District?
11 A. I cannot agree with that. Military control was established by
12 the JNA. They had their own Presidency with members who were not only
14 Q. Okay. Let me clarify that then. For the moment, I don't want to
15 distinguish between military or political control, Serb military, or Serb
16 politicians. I just simply want to see if we can agree that by the
17 22nd of November, the Serb side, if you will, had achieved control over
18 much of what was claimed to be SBWS autonomous district.
19 A. I could agree with you if, instead of the Serb side, you used the
20 term the Yugoslav side.
21 Q. Okay. I'll accept that. Now, looking at Article 11 here, which
22 we're seeing Vukovar and then a number of the towns that are located in
23 it, and keeping that in mind -- well, let's move across to the next page
24 so the Chamber can see more of these.
25 MR. STRINGER: Next page of the English. This is Beli Manastir.
1 And then with a number of -- maybe I should ask you, Mr. Hadzic, under
2 Beli Manastir, here just, for example, we're seeing individual locations,
3 such as Baranjsko Petrovo Selo, Batina, Bilje, Bolman, Branjin. What are
4 those places, towns, villages inside Beli Manastir municipality?
5 A. Yes, these are all villages in the Beli Manastir municipality.
6 Beli Manastir itself a town. All of these are villages in Baranja.
7 Q. And then moving across to the next page of the English, page 88,
8 again the list of places in Beli Manastir continues. And then Vinkovci
9 appears. And then it continues with the list of places in Vinkovci. And
10 then on page 89, moves into Dalj. And then page 90, Osijek. Temporary
11 seat in Tenja.
12 So what's happening here, Mr. Hadzic, is that by virtue of this
13 Law on Territorial Organisation, the places are being identified over
14 which the Serbian District and its government and its legislative
15 governmental bodies will be applying their laws and their jurisdiction in
16 place of the Law on the Jurisdiction of Croatia; correct?
17 A. Correct. But in some future period when fighting stops and when
18 the military administration hands over power to the civilian
20 MR. STRINGER: Now if we could please have P01776 which is
21 tab 394.
22 Q. This is, Mr. Hadzic, as it's coming up, this is the census -- the
23 census data for these places that I want to take you to from the 1991
25 MR. STRINGER: And we would go first to e-court page 26. That's
1 page 26 of the e-court file.
2 Q. And at the top there, the third entry is for Beli Manastir.
3 MR. STRINGER: Perhaps we could blow that up.
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, what this is telling us is that according to the 1991
5 census, they've got 54.265 people in Beli Manastir - this is the
6 municipality - of which 22.740 are Croats. And then moving across to
7 column 8, 13.851 are Serbs. And actually moving out to column 14, 8.956
8 are Hungarians.
9 So what that means, Mr. Hadzic, isn't it true that this
10 Beli Manastir that is going to be part of your Serb District --
11 JUDGE DELVOIE: Yes, Mr. Zivanovic.
12 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry. May we know, is it the whole page or just
13 a part of the page? Because I don't see Yugoslavs as the option.
14 MR. STRINGER: That's on the next page. That's going to be as
15 page 27 in e-court file.
16 Just so Your Honour knows the census, a single page is spread
17 across two of these pages. The columns continue out and so --
18 But if I may say, Mr. President, this may be something for
19 re-direct. I've got questions that I'd like to ask Mr. Hadzic, and if my
20 learned friend would like to ask questions about the percentage of people
21 declaring them Yugoslavs there, he is free to do that on his re-direct.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
23 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, my understanding, the witness is entitled
24 to see the whole document, not just a part of it or just half of the page
25 of this particular document before he -- he could answer the question.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: I don't -- I don't see that, Mr. Zivanovic. This
2 is more a technical problem than anything else. If there something in
3 the -- in -- in -- in the question that warrants the entire document to
4 be shown, we'll go to that. But, for the moment, I don't see that.
5 Please continue, Mr. Stringer.
6 MR. STRINGER:
7 Q. I've gone the math here, Mr. Hadzic, and --
8 JUDGE DELVOIE: Just one moment. No, I see why we don't have
9 anything on the English part of the screen.
10 Go ahead, please.
11 MR. STRINGER: They didn't translate the entire -- we do have an
12 English version of the chart with the columns, if Your Honours would like
13 to see that. But just names what are the different nationalities --
14 JUDGE DELVOIE: Okay.
15 MR. STRINGER:
16 Q. Mr. Hadzic, can we agree to this: Out of a total 54.265 people
17 in that municipality, only 13.851, which by my math is about 25 percent,
18 are Serb people. I should say, clarify that, people who declare
19 themselves to be Serb. Twenty-five percent of those living in
20 Beli Manastir are people who declare themselves to be Serb. True?
21 A. According to the 1991 census, yes, that is the part that declared
22 themselves as such, if the manipulation hadn't already taken place,
23 because the Croats had already come into power when the census was
25 Q. So that --
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
2 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, he didn't say the word "Croats." So it
3 should -- maybe he -- he should repeat his answer.
4 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you, Mr. Hadzic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said that the
6 Croatian Democratic Union had already taken power by then.
7 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
8 MR. STRINGER:
9 Q. Are you suggesting that -- well, let me put it this way,
10 Mr. Hadzic, just to stay on my question. Beli Manastir, the municipality
11 then that you're asserting was going to be in your Serb District is a
12 place in which Serbs, people who declared themselves to be Serbs,
13 constituted only 25 percent of the population. Is that true?
14 A. Yes, you can see that from this census. But I don't know if it
15 was actually so.
16 Q. Well, the fact is no matter how you start drawing lines, it's not
17 going to result in there being a Beli Manastir municipality that's going
18 to be a majority Serb; correct? The fact is the Serbs were a distinct
19 minority in that particular area of the SBWS. Can we agree on that?
20 A. I don't agree that they were a distinct minority, but they were
21 there in the percentage that you referred to, if the census is correct.
22 Q. And we could scroll down this page we're seeing and look at
24 According to my calculations, those declaring themselves Serbs in
25 Osijek municipality are in about 20 per cent of the total population.
1 Does that sound about right to you?
2 A. I didn't really deal with these things, but it could be like
3 that, approximately.
4 Q. And just so we're clear because we know that as of the
5 22nd of November, 1991, the Croats, the Croatian side, was still in
6 control of the Osijek town, and the confrontation line actually fell
7 somewhere south of the town, between Osijek and Vukovar. So the Serb
8 side, the Yugoslav side as you put it, did not control Osijek town as of
9 the date of this Law on Territorial Organisation; correct?
10 A. The law that you are referring to was a provisional, temporary
11 law. The Croatian side was in control of Osijek before, always, even
13 Q. But we could go back to the law and look at the page on Osijek,
14 and what we're going to see is that in fact the town of Osijek itself is
15 among the places that is going to be a part of the SBWS district;
17 A. I didn't understand it that way. It was written in the former
18 SFRY and in former Croatia. All the municipalities were copied from
19 there including the municipal seat, the town, and all the villages are
20 written there which were not even near the area.
21 MR. STRINGER: We can break here, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you, Mr. Stringer.
23 Court adjourned.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.14 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.46 p.m.
1 JUDGE DELVOIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stringer.
2 MR. STRINGER: Could I have just one moment, Mr. President. I've
3 got a technical problem. Thank you.
4 Q. Mr. Hadzic, before we move ahead, I want to give you a -- an
5 opportunity to respond to something that your counsel raised in one of
6 his objections because I don't want you to feel like we're being unfair
7 to you. And this relates to the Yugoslav group on the census. So we
8 could take a moment to look at those numbers as well.
9 I see you have something to say.
10 A. I'm not receiving interpretation.
11 Q. Can you hear me now?
12 A. Yes, it is okay now. Thank you.
13 Q. Did you get the interpretation of my comments just a moment ago?
14 A. I did. Please go on.
15 Q. If we could -- we're still with Exhibit P1776, the census, which
16 was tab 394, and you mentioned this in your direct examination and just
17 so that the Chamber can see what you're referring to. We could now go to
18 page 27 of the exhibit, which as we all can see now continues at the top
19 with column number 15. And so this is a continuation out to the right of
20 the heading at the top of the previous page. So here on this page we see
21 more groups referred to, in terms of those declaring their nationality,
22 starting with Germans, Poles, and moving out to column number 29, which
23 relates to Yugoslavs, that as being people who did not declare their
25 Is that the group that you have referred to when we talk about
1 the demographic data, Mr. Hadzic, is the Yugoslavs there in column 29?
2 A. It was my counsel's objection. That's probably what he had in
4 Q. In your direct examination, actually, I think you asserted that
5 if you add the number of Yugoslavs to the number of Serbs who resided in
6 Vukovar, then that would put you at 50 per cent, so that's why I'm
7 raising it with you directly.
8 A. Yes, I remember having said so.
9 Q. Okay. So just moving back one page to 26, again, looking at
10 Beli Manastir and the number there, a total of 54.265. That's total
11 people who declared and people who did not declare themselves. 22.700
12 Croats; 13.800 Serbs; 8.900 Hungarians. And then moving to the right, we
13 see that this is row number 13. And then if we move now to page 28 of
14 this document for the continuation, and if we continue to follow row 13
15 across to the Yugoslav column, then we can see how many Yugoslavs, or
16 people are as down as Yugoslavs, from Beli Manastir.
17 So applying this to Beli Manastir, Mr. Hadzic, would you agree
18 with me that, according to the 1991 census, there were 4.265 Yugoslavs in
19 Beli Manastir?
20 A. That's what it says, if we are looking at the right column and if
21 the census data is correct.
22 I have to say something for the sake of truth. This census took
23 place before the 22nd of November, 1991, when the decision was drafted,
24 the temporary proposal of the assembly decision.
25 On the 22nd of November, almost all of the towns in our environs
1 were empty of Serbs basically. If you remember Dzakula's statement, he
2 said that 174 villages were not only empty of people but destroyed, and
3 most of those people went to the other side independent of me. As for
4 the towns of Daruvar, Pakrac, Pozega, et cetera, those towns were
5 completely emptied of Serbs. If we are to look at these figures
6 objectively one needs to bear that in mind. The figure would be zero in
7 such columns which depict the number of Serbs in those towns, including
8 Zagreb. I'm not saying anything against or for it, but just bear that in
9 mind. It was a temporary decision. And in 1995, the houses were still
10 preserved and the Croats could return to their homes as opposed to the
11 Serbs who have never returned to Croatian territory to this day.
12 Q. Now, looking at this decision you've just referred to, the
13 decision on the territorial organisation, page 90 of the English, and we
14 touched on this just briefly before the break but I want to come back to
15 it now. We're seeing here now Osijek and the towns within the Osijek
16 municipality that are following within the -- sorry.
17 MR. STRINGER: Let me give you an exhibit number. It's -- it's
18 L1, tab 388, page 90 of the English, and 31 of the B/C/S.
19 Q. So here we see Osijek municipality under item number 5. But if
20 you move down alphabetically, we see that actually Osijek, the town
21 itself, is falling within the terms of this law, but as of 22nd November,
22 the date of this law, Mr. Hadzic, Osijek actually was still in the hands
23 of the Croatian side; correct?
24 A. I've already answered that a few minutes before the last break.
25 It was in the hands of the Croatian side at the time, before that, and
1 even now.
2 Q. And so what this means is that as of the 22nd of November, 1991,
3 it was the position of the SBWS government that Osijek was not yet --
4 although Osijek was not yet in your control, it was your intention, or
5 the intention of those on the Serbian side, to take Osijek. This is the
6 territorial aspiration, in other words; correct? You were not finished
7 because you had no taken Osijek?
8 A. No, it wasn't so.
9 Q. So it's --
10 A. Let me correct something. In line 25 of the previous page, you
11 said Law on Territorial Organisation but it was a Law on Provisional
12 Territorial Organisation.
13 Q. And what was intended is that Osijek, when it was liberated as
14 you would put it, would itself fall within the terms of this law until an
15 overall settlement would be reached with Croatia for the permanent
16 setting of the borders. Is that was -- is that what the intention was?
17 A. Personally I never heard anyone who was serious enough say that
18 Osijek had to be attacked, liberated, or taken, as you put it. I
19 disagree with that. They simply included the entire five municipalities
20 of the former Socialist Republic of Croatia, Vinkovci, Osijek and Vukovar
21 included. Only the municipality of Vukovar and Beli Manastir were
22 completely in the hands of the district. Osijek was, of course, not.
23 Q. You just said here, Mr. Hadzic, that you personally never heard
24 anyone who was serious enough to say that Osijek had to be attacked,
25 liberated, or taken.
1 MR. STRINGER: If we could now move to tab 1048, P1079. It's a
2 video and we will be asking for the interpretation. So we'll wait for
4 THE INTERPRETER: We have it.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan: Well,
7 it happened four days ago when we were liberated Borovo Naselje, my
8 units, and I got the sniper.
9 "The reporter: Is it a serious wound?
10 "Arkan: No, it is a light wound and I returned to the front line
11 immediately so I have not even been absent from the front line.
12 "The reporter: There is a hole in the gun as well?
13 "Arkan: Yes, this is the hole. This is how it was. There's a
14 hole, that is the small calibre sniper. It is over and forgotten now.
15 "The reporter: What next?
16 "Arkan: Well, we go on. We go to Osijek. Osijek."
17 MR. STRINGER:
18 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you remember the video? We've played it a lot
19 during the trial of when you and others were at the Velepromet facility
20 on the 20th of November just after the meeting. Do you remember that
22 A. I remember being at Velepromet and that there was a private
24 Q. Do you remember the -- the footage that's been shown that shows
25 you, Arkan, other people standing around at Velepromet on the 20th?
1 A. In the yard of the Velepromet, yes.
2 Q. And do you remember that Arkan was wounded at that time? He had
3 this bandage on his hand at that time. Do you remember him being
4 wounded, as is indicated in this video we just saw?
5 A. I saw it here, but I don't recall the other footage. I wasn't
6 paying attention.
7 Q. In any event, you said you weren't aware of anyone advocating
8 taking or liberating Osijek. What this shows is in fact at least one
9 person was doing that, and that was Arkan, wasn't it?
10 A. I know very well what I said, and I will repeat: I said that I
11 did not hear of anyone serious enough who was for it, and I did hear
12 hundreds of fools saying that we need to go, I don't even know where. It
13 wasn't only Arkan. There were people causing trouble in the street.
14 There were always people around having such suggestions to make.
15 Q. Now coming back again, if we could move back to the Law on
16 Temporary -- Temporary Territorial Organisation. We were looking at the
17 places. And you had just mentioned the other municipalities a moment ago
18 before we -- we played the video. Vinkovci was one of those, I believe.
19 You said they simply included the entire five municipalities of the
20 former socialist -- Vinkovci, Osijek and Vukovar included.
21 A. That was a mistake. I had four in mind: Beli Manastir,
22 Vinkovci, Vukovar, and Osijek.
23 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about that, just to get that
24 clarified. Vinkovci, Osijek, Vukovar, and Beli Manastir would be the
25 four that you're -- envisioned would be a part of the SBWS?
1 A. Well, you shouldn't say that it was what I envisaged. It was the
2 assembly that envisaged the temporary organisation.
3 JUDGE DELVOIE: Mr. Zivanovic.
4 MR. ZIVANOVIC: I think that the answer of the witness was not
5 translated correctly. He could repeat his answer.
6 JUDGE DELVOIE: Could you, Mr. Hadzic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said when you say "you," you
8 probably don't mean me personally. It was an assembly decision.
9 MR. STRINGER:
10 Q. I would assume that you endorsed this decision, since it went to
11 the assembly after having been raised by your justice minister, Mr. Susa,
12 during your government meeting on the 19th, however; correct?
13 A. The government voted on it, and I was only one vote. It was a
14 matter of form. It was to -- to be a temporary solution, leaving the
15 right to decide in the hands of the people. And I don't think, as you
16 believe, that all non-Serbs did not wish to stay in Yugoslavia. I don't
17 think that is true because many people who lived in that country believed
18 it to be a good country.
19 Q. Now, Beli Manastir in the law document that we have, page 87 of
20 the English -- Mr. Hadzic, do you see it on the screen in front of you?
21 A. I do.
22 MR. STRINGER: We're not seeing it over here, Mr. President. I
23 don't -- now it's up. Okay.
24 Q. Just keeping this in mind, a couple of the places within the
25 municipality, for example, this place called Baranjsko Petrovo Selo; do
1 you see that?
2 A. It is the first one on the list just below Beli Manastir.
3 Q. And there's a Bilje. That's at the bottom in the municipality.
4 A. I see it.
5 Q. Okay. Just keeping those two in mind as an example, I'd like to
6 now move back to 1776, the census, tab 394, and what I'm getting at here,
7 Mr. Hadzic, I'm going to put to you, you've talked about how, if I may
8 put it this way, the municipalities or the demographic composition was
9 manipulated by the Croatian authorities. What I'm going to put to you
10 here is that the fact is you had individuals of both ethnicities living
11 in the smaller towns and villages and it's simply where they lived.
12 MR. STRINGER: If we could go to e-court page 34 -- sorry.
13 03443199. The e-court page is the ERN number.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Chamber but I
15 did not say that the census was a consequence of manipulation. I said
16 that there was a possibility of manipulation but I do not have
17 information that would confirm any manipulation.
18 MR. STRINGER: I could assist the Registrar. If you're in
19 e-court and you click on the drop-down menu that gives the page number of
20 the document and then scroll down toward the bottom of the census, you'll
21 start seeing ERN numbers as the actual e-court page number, and that's
22 what I'm referring to.
23 Well, can you find -- sorry. Can the Registrar find it with the
24 ERN -- just referring to the document by ERN number 34 -- 03448199.
25 Thank you.
1 Q. Mr. Hadzic, do you recognise this? This is one of those -- the
2 charts that is attached to the back of the census?
3 A. I recognise that.
4 Q. And what these do is for each municipality, they give the
5 breakdown in terms of the ethnic composition of the settlements, towns,
6 within the municipality. And so I'm coming to this because if you look
7 at the two places we just spoke about, Baranjsko Petrovo Selo, which is
8 just west of Beli Manastir, the town, we see that's a red place. That's
9 a Croat town. Down toward the bottom of the municipality, Bilje, is also
10 a red spot. And would you agree with me, Mr. Hadzic, that if we went
11 through all the towns in the municipalities here in this temporary law, a
12 good many of them, quite possibly the majority of them, would be red
13 places, red because that's where the Croatian population was in the
15 A. I could agree that it was so at the time of the census. But the
16 government I presided over had not provoked the Croatian side to attack
17 Western Slavonia and empty it completely. All those people went to the
18 eastern part of Slavonia. I had no influence over that.
19 Q. And if we could move to the chart for Osijek, that's at page
20 0344825A. We can again see the relative ethnicities of the places in
21 that municipality.
22 And just so we know as indicated in the upper left hand of the
23 chart, Mr. Hadzic, a solid circle indicates an absolute majority,
24 whereas, one that is not a solid circle but is just a coloured circle
25 indicates a relative majority; do you see that?
1 A. I see it.
2 Q. So what that would mean, for example, is that Osijek town is an
3 absolute majority, whereas off to the south-west, Bresce would be a place
4 where there was a relative majority of Serbs; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So, again, applying this back to the Law on Temporary Territorial
7 Organisation, the plan, the aspiration was to extend your laws and your
8 control, political control, over a place, even Osijek which was just an
9 overwhelmingly Croatian town; correct?
10 A. Our laws could not be changed even where we were because it was
11 all the army there. It was the military administration. This was a plan
12 for a future peaceful resolution, something to be discussed. It was not
13 for the law to be implemented. We couldn't even implement the law in
14 Ilok, never mind Osijek, where we weren't even present.
15 Q. Well, if we go to 03448295, we can take look at Ilok and
16 Western Srem.
17 Setting aside the fact, as you claim, that Ilok was under
18 military administration, the fact is, sir, that for you to achieve and
19 the SBWS to achieve political control over a place like Ilok, given its
20 absolute Croatian majority, the only way for you to achieve that would be
21 to remove most of the Croatian people who lived there because they were
22 never going to accept it. Isn't that true?
23 A. Was that a question?
24 Q. That's a question. Is it true that the only way you would have
25 been able to achieve political control over a place like Ilok is by
1 removing all or most of the Croatian population?
2 A. At the end of the presentation of evidence, you had your own
3 witness who personally admitted that he did that, and I never saw this
4 person in my life, and I had nothing to do with that.
5 Q. Mr. Hadzic, I'm asking you as essentially the political leader of
6 Serbs in Croatia, which is what you were at the time, and wasn't it the
7 policy of your government that it would be necessary to remove all or
8 most of the Croatian people from places, such as Ilok, in order to
9 achieve political control over that territory?
10 A. It was not my policy or the policy of my government. All we
11 wanted was to remain in Yugoslavia and to achieve our right to
12 self-determination, which we had, pursuant to promises of some
13 ambassadors of the United Nations.
14 MR. STRINGER: And if we could please return to L1, tab 388, back
15 to the Law on Temporary Territorial Organisation. Page 91 of the
16 English. And it should be approximately page 32 of the B/C/S. I want to
17 go to Article 14, Article 14 of this law.
18 Q. Do you have that, Mr. Hadzic?
19 A. Yes. I would just like to correct in line 24, I meant some
20 ambassadors of countries of the United Nations. I apologise.
21 Q. Here in Article 14 we have the administration -- the provision
22 that says:
23 "The administrative organ of the municipality is the
24 Executive Council of the municipality, which is assigned by the
25 government of the Serb District."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Before the last break, you indicated that because of the
3 situation, the conflict, et cetera, the Executive Council of the
4 municipality would serve essentially as its government until there could
5 be elections and the formation of a -- a normal government. Is that an
6 acceptable way of putting it?
7 A. You understood me correctly, yes.
8 Q. And then moving to Article 2 -- excuse me, 22. This provides
10 "The administrative organ of a municipality is the
11 Executive Council of the municipality, which is appointed by the
12 Serb District government.
13 "The president and six members of the Executive Council of the
14 municipality are appointed by the decision of the government of the
15 Serb District, which also passes more specific documents regarding their
17 Mr. Hadzic, my question is whether you recall actually exercising
18 this authority in your capacity as prime minister, the appointment of
19 people to Executive Councils?
20 A. I didn't have that authority. That authority lay with the
22 Q. Did you sign off on government decisions to appoint people to the
23 Executive Council of municipalities?
24 A. Well, this is a different question. I signed government
25 decisions adopted by the government, but they could also have been signed
1 by the vice-president if I was away.
2 MR. STRINGER: If we could please have tab 363, which is L53.
3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is a decision on organising and the way of work
4 of municipal Executive Council, and it is dated 3rd of December, 1991.
5 Do you recall this document? Do you recall this law?
6 A. I do, yes. I remember this decision.
7 Q. I'm looking at the bottom. It appears that it is a decision of
8 the government that you then signed off on as the president of the
10 A. Well, I don't see anything of dispute here. If I signed it, yes,
11 it's correct.
12 Q. And in Article 2 it says that:
13 "Within the rights and duties of a municipality, the
14 Executive Council answers to the government for the situation in all
15 areas of social life as well as for the application of the established
16 policy, regulations, and general legal document of the National Assembly
17 that direct and co-ordinate the work of municipal... bodies."
18 So by appointing people to these municipal Executive Councils and
19 by having the Executive Council answer to the government, then what this
20 did, Mr. Hadzic, was to ensure that SBWS government policy could now be
21 applied throughout the municipalities through the municipal council -- or
22 excuse me, through the Executive Councils. Is that what was intended
23 here as the structure?
24 A. That is how it should have been, so it's some sort of
25 conditional. If conditions are created, then that is how it was supposed
1 to be.
2 Q. And then moving to page 2 of the English, Article 10. In this
3 section of the law, we have the relationship of the Executive Council and
4 the government. And then in Article 10 it says that:
5 "The Executive Council has to inform the government about the
6 conduct of the policy that the Executive Council has set ..."
7 And it continues on.
8 And then in Article 12:
9 "Executive Council must act in accordance with the government
10 directions and conclusions passed with regards to the consideration of
11 issues that refer to the work of the Executive Council and especially in
12 relation to the application of the established government policy, law,
13 and other regulations," et cetera.
14 Now, Mr. Hadzic, again, this tell us, does it not, that the
15 Executive Councils were subordinate to the government and the government
16 policy and that they were there to actually ensure that government policy
17 was applied at the municipal level?
18 A. Well, that's how it was supposed to be.
19 MR. STRINGER: If we could please have tab 411, L57. Page 73 of
20 the English, 16 of the B/C/S.
21 Q. And now here we see -- referring to a session held on the
22 28th of November, 1991, six days after adoption of the Law on the
23 Provisional Territorial Organisation, which is also referred to in the
24 preamble here, pursuant to that law what's happening here is that the
25 government is appointing a gentleman named Boro Zivanovic of
1 Beli Manastir to be the chairman of the Executive Council. Do you see
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Do you recall signing off on the appointment of Mr. Zivanovic to
5 this position?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. And you did this in Dalj on the 3rd of December?
8 A. No, I did it in Erdut. However, the document was drafted in
10 MR. STRINGER: Could we please have tab 282, Exhibit P02161.
11 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is a decision published in the Official Gazette
12 of the Beli Manastir municipality from the 18th of October, 1991. So
13 it's before the date of your appointment of Mr. Zivanovic to the chair of
14 the Executive Council. But I did want to talk a little about his
15 activities prior to the time you appointed him to that position. This
16 is --
17 MR. ZIVANOVIC: Sorry, may we move to the next page in B/C/S,
18 please, to correspond to the page in English. Thank you.
19 MR. STRINGER: Well, I wasn't quite there yet. I wanted to at
20 least ask Mr. Hadzic if we could agree on the name of this decision
21 before we move to paragraph II.
22 Q. Mr. Hadzic, this is a decision to change street names in the town
23 of Beli Manastir; do you see that?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And then moving now to the next page of the B/C/S, same page of
1 the English, we can see a list of about 41 street names that are being
3 Can we agree, Mr. Hadzic, that what's essentially happening here
4 is that street names that bear a more Croatian name are being changed to
5 street names that bear more of a Serbian name?
6 A. I don't agree. Those people were mostly appointed by the
7 Communist government during the Communist regime. There are Croats,
8 Serbs there, but all of them are the former Yugoslav leaders appointed by
9 the Communist regime.
10 Q. And then the new names -- we don't have to look at them all.
11 There are some names there that appear to be more historical Serbian
12 figures. I see some Serbian duke, some Vojvoda at 14, 15, 16.
13 A. Those were Vojvodas from the First World War.
14 Q. And this decision is signed by Mr. Zivanovic. How long had you
15 known Mr. Zivanovic before you appointed him to the Executive Council on
16 the 3rd of December, 1991?
17 A. I can't remember. Perhaps a couple of months. Maybe even half a
18 year. But I can't remember.
19 Q. And he is signing off on these decisions now. This one is from
20 October 18th, a month to the day, actually, prior to the fall of Vukovar.
21 Can we agree that in Beli Manastir, that municipality, or most of it, was
22 under Serb control from quite an early period?
23 A. I agree Boro Zivanovic was the president of the Executive Council
24 there even before the government established that. The government just
25 confirmed the factual situation that had existed as of September. He
1 never reported back to us.
2 MR. STRINGER: If we could have tab 216, please. Exhibit 2150A.
3 Q. Mr. Hadzic, we see here a decision of -- signed off on by
4 Mr. Borivoje Zivanovic even quite earlier on the 5th of September. And
5 this is a decision on the termination of employment of all persons who
6 openly supported the overthrown regime of the Republic of Croatia.
7 A. Yes, I can see that.
8 Q. And in Article 1 it says, refers to:
9 "A termination of employment of all persons who openly supported
10 the overthrown regime and who, if they remain at their place of
11 employment, would disturb the formal work process or irritate other
12 employees which could lead to serious, specific and political problems,
13 regardless of their ethnic or religious affiliations."
14 Mr. Hadzic, were you aware that from early
15 September Mr. Zivanovic was up in Beli Manastir issuing or adopting
16 legislation like this?
17 A. I wasn't aware of that. I just told you that he did not report
18 back to us.
19 Q. So you didn't know any of this about him at that time that you
20 appointed him in December, actually, to be formally the head of the
21 municipal council for Beli Manastir?
22 A. At that time, I didn't know that. At that time, the government
23 had not been established. They held their assembly session before I
24 became prime minister.
25 Q. Do you agree with legislation like this that he was passing, that
1 gave them the power to essentially fire people if they might irritate
2 other employees, if they remain at their place of employment?
3 A. Of course I don't agree with that. I don't know anything about
5 Q. The fact is that Mr. Zivanovic here was an extremist and he was
6 taking advantage of the Serbian control over Beli Manastir to persecute
7 non-Serbs, Croats, and others who were not accepting of the political
8 change that was now in place. Is that true?
9 A. I know nothing about that. I've not seen this before.
10 Q. He was an extremist. Can we agree on that?
11 A. I did not have that information. However, if he drafted this, I
12 would agree that his way of thinking was rather extremist.
13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, may we go into private session for
14 the next document.
15 JUDGE DELVOIE: Private session, please.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 10230-10234 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank
21 JUDGE DELVOIE: Thank you.
22 Court adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of July,
25 2014, at 9.00 a.m.