1 Thursday, 18 December 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, will you
5 please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
8 [The accused entered court]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can I have the appearances of
10 the parties, please. There's a part of the Prosecution that is hidden
11 behind the pillar.
12 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.
13 For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis and Ekkehard Withopf, with Kimberly
14 Fleming as the case manager.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, which is rather
16 far removed now.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
18 Good morning, Your Honours. On behalf of the Defence of General
19 Hadzihasanovic today, Edina Residovic, Defence Stephane Bourgon, and
20 Alexis Demirdjian, attorney from Montreal.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
23 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
24 Mr. Mulalic.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The
1 Chamber bids good morning to all the parties: The Prosecution, the
2 Defence, and the accused.
3 Today we have a new witness. But before calling the new witness,
4 I would like to ask the Defence whether they filed their remarks, as I
5 asked them to do, with regard to the motion of the Prosecution. I'm told
6 that they have.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. But we didn't
8 manage to do it by 5.00, but we did by 7.00. We had some technical
9 difficulties. It has been filed, both in electronic and paper form. It
10 has been filed with the Registry.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Chamber notes
12 that the Defence has been working all night in order to produce this
13 document on time.
14 Regarding the Prosecution, how many witnesses are planned for
16 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, there's one witness on the schedule
17 for today. In the event this witness can be finished prior to 1.45,
18 there is a likelihood that we can call the second witness immediately
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
21 Can I ask the usher to be kind enough to bring in the witness.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, madam. Are you
24 hearing the interpretation?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you be kind enough to
2 give us your full name, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ivanka Tavic.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your date of birth?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 25th of November, 1968.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Maljine, Travnik
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am currently unemployed.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what is your place of
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm living in Vitez.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 As you're going to testify now, is this the first time you're
17 testifying in court?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are now going to read the
20 text of a solemn declaration that the usher will give you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may
24 be seated.
25 WITNESS: IVANKA TAVIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam, you will have to answer
3 questions which the Prosecution, which is on your right, are going to put
4 to you. And at the end of that examination, the Defence, which is on
5 your left, with the attorney seated on your left, will have questions for
6 you. The Judges, who are in front of you, may also have questions for
7 you. And at the end of the questions of the Defence, the Prosecution may
8 re-examine you.
9 I am, therefore, going to give the floor to the Prosecution for
10 their examination-in-chief.
11 Examined by Mr. Withopf:
12 Q. Good morning, Ms. Tavic.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Ms. Tavic, you told the Trial Chamber that you were born in
15 Maljine. Where did you live in 1992 and in the first month of 1993?
16 A. I was living in Maljine.
17 Q. At this point in time, 1992, and within the first month of 1993,
18 members of which ethnicities were living in Maljine?
19 A. Members of the Muslim ethnicity and members of the Croatian
20 ethnicity were living in Maljine.
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which group was in the majority.
22 A. There were more Muslims, but not significantly more.
23 Q. Can you give us a rough idea in respect to the number of
24 households for the Muslim group and for the Croat group?
25 A. Well, there may have been some 100 Croat households and between
1 150 and 200 Muslim households, something like that.
2 Q. Were the Croats and the Muslims living in the same area of
3 Maljine, or were they living in separate areas?
4 A. Well, though it is one village by name, the ethnicities were
5 separated. The part known as Gornje Maljine, which means "upper
6 Maljine," inhabited by Croats; and the Donje Maljine, or "lower Maljine"
7 were inhabited by Muslims.
8 Q. In 1992 and early 1993, what has been the relationship between
9 the Croats and Serbs in Maljine?
10 A. Until the beginning of 1993, there really were no problems
11 between us, especially not on an ethnic basis. We had one school in the
12 village. We went to school together. We socialised together. There
13 were no incidents until the beginning of 1993.
14 Q. Did there come a time at which this good relationship changed?
15 A. The first visible signs of change in the behaviour of the Muslims
16 in our village appeared when the first Mujahedins appeared on the
17 territory of Travnik municipality. It was then that in our village we
18 started to notice Muslims, people we knew from before, but they changed
19 in the way they dressed. They had beards grown and some Arab
20 characteristics, which were quite unknown to us before.
21 Q. These individuals which you are referring to as Mujahedin, when
22 did you for the first time notice them in your geographical area?
23 A. I personally started coming across them at the end of 1992 in the
24 town of Travnik. I would go to town often, so that -- they could be seen
25 in the streets.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. These Mujahedin, did they wear -- did they have any weapons?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber which sort of weapons.
4 A. These were mostly firearms, rifles. I don't know what make or
5 type, but they were rifles, long barrels.
6 Q. The Mujahedin, did they wear any military uniforms?
7 A. Yes. They had military uniforms, but individuals could be seen
8 wearing different clothing. I really don't know how you call them. They
9 were wearing some kind of clothing that was quite unusual, something we
10 hadn't seen in our area before.
11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, can you give the Trial Chamber a
12 rough idea about the numbers of Mujahedin or how often have you seen
14 A. Whenever I went to town, I could see them. They became a daily
15 occurrence. The largest groups could be seen in one of their charitable
16 societies that they opened across the road from the police in Travnik.
17 That is where they would gather in groups. You could always see them, 10
18 to 15 of them together, it depended. But you could see them every day in
19 the streets. They became part of our daily lives.
20 Q. Since the Mujahedin were armed, did you get any information or do
21 you have any own knowledge where the Mujahedin were based?
22 A. Personally, on one occasion, as I was going into town by bus, I
23 heard from a Muslim from our village that the Mujahedin had arrived at
24 Mehurici, that there were quite a number of them there, how they would
25 help them, that there were some in Poljanice. So that is how we learnt
1 that they had come close to us.
2 Q. Ms. Tavic, was there a point in time when Maljine was attacked?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you still recall as to when Maljine was attacked?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the date.
7 A. The actual attack occurred on the 7th of June, 1993.
8 Q. On the 7th of June, 1993, what did you do at this point in time?
9 A. The attack first started Postinje, early in the morning. It's a
10 small village close to Maljine. I was actually awaked by the shooting
11 that wasn't actually in my village, but nearby. And a couple of hours
12 later, people from that part of the village brought in a man who was
13 wounded in the leg and who was transported to the outpatients clinic.
14 And during the transportation of this wounded man, the Muslims from Donje
15 Maljine opened fire on the vehicle. And that is how the shooting
16 actually started in my village.
17 After the vehicle had taken the wounded man, my uncle was hit,
18 Anto Talic, and then I, too, ran away from the house to the part where he
19 had been wounded, and together with another three men, we brought him to
20 the village. But as the shooting had escalated, there was no possibility
21 of transporting him by car to the clinic, so that he was carried on foot
22 across the hill, but he didn't survive. Unfortunately, he died.
23 Q. Ms. Tavic, you are mentioning a clinic. What was your function
24 at the time on the 7th of June, 1993?
25 A. After this wounding happened and after the man died on the way up
1 there, there was a doctor in the village and we realised that we had no
2 choice but to organise ourselves in the village. And in a part of the
3 village, in a large basement, we decided to form a sort of dispensary.
4 And then I and two or three girls went round the village collecting
5 sheets and medicines and bandages, and that is how we formed this
6 dispensary in a basement.
7 In view of the fact that night was falling, in the afternoon, as
8 we were equipping the dispensary, already that afternoon there were some
9 new wounded men; an older man, Anto Juric, had been hit in front of his
10 house. His wife, who was running towards him, was also hit in the leg
11 and she stayed lying on the road. He came to the dispensary. We managed
12 to treat him. But when we tried to reach his wife, Mara, it was
13 impossible, which was because the area was exposed and there was constant
14 shooting, and she was left there until 9.00 in the evening. When night
15 fell, then her sons went to pull her out. So that night, the night of
16 the 7th, I spent in the dispensary.
17 Q. To which army did the attacking soldiers belong to?
18 A. The BH army.
19 Q. During the attack, did the attacking soldiers shout anything?
20 A. Yes. On the 8th of June, early in the morning at dawn, about
21 3.30 or 4.00, when the main attack on Maljine started, when they had
22 already entered the village and surrounded it from all sides, we heard
23 some unusual calls of "Allah-U-Ekber," "Tekbir," the meaning of which I
24 didn't know at all. I didn't know what it meant.
25 Q. You were saying that the attacking soldiers were from the ABiH,
1 the Muslim army. Did you see any identifying features, any shoulder
2 patches or something like that?
3 A. Yes. Most of them in those days were wearing blue patches with
4 lilies, which were the insignia of the BH army at the time.
5 MR. WITHOPF: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution Exhibit
7 Q. Mrs. Tavic, do you see a photo board in front of you on the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please identify on this photo board the shoulder patch
11 you were referring to a few seconds ago.
12 A. It is number 12, patch number 12.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. WITHOPF: For the record, the witness has identified on the
15 Prosecution Exhibit P4 the patch numbered 12 as the one which was worn by
16 the attacking ABiH soldiers.
17 Q. Ms. Tavic, you were telling the Trial Chamber that the attacking
18 soldiers were shouting "Tekbir," "Allah-U-Ekber," and other words you
19 couldn't understand. Did they have any other things with them in a
20 language you couldn't understand or couldn't read?
21 A. I don't understand the question. If you're referring to the
22 soldiers of the BH army that we saw just then, those were the only things
23 they said I couldn't understand. But when the Mujahedin entered the
24 village, there were many things that could not be understood.
25 Q. The attacking soldiers, did they have a flag with them?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you please describe for the Trial Chamber what this flag was
4 A. It was a big black flag. And somewhere in the middle something
5 was written in Arabic script.
6 Q. On the 8th of June, 1993, do you know which unit of the ABiH
7 attacked Maljine? Have you seen any identifying insignia?
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness has
9 already answered that she only saw the insignia of the Army of Bosnia and
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I think the witness, in answer to
13 a previous question, clearly answered that she only saw the insignia of
14 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which she identified as being the
15 patch number 12.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question of the Prosecution
17 was whether the witness, in addition to the patch that she identified on
18 P4, whether she saw any other patches or insignia.
19 Madam Witness, when you were there - and you told us a moment ago
20 that you were present during the attack - to the best of your memory, do
21 you remember in addition to the patch that you identified any other
22 distinctive patch? Did you notice any other? As it was more than ten
23 years ago, do you remember it today?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, things like that one
25 does not forget. When the soldiers entered our village, we saw them face
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to face. And I had occasion to go to another part of the village with
2 two of those soldiers to gather the civilians and the other wounded in
3 other houses. One of the two soldiers who were escorting me had the
4 insignia of the 314th Brigade. In front of a house where there were many
5 civilians and a wounded pregnant woman, there were a number of soldiers
6 of the BH army which bore the insignia of the 306th Brigade.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you saw two types of
8 insignia, of the 314th Brigade and of the 306th Brigade; is that right?
9 And you're sure of that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, 100 per cent.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
12 Q. Was there a time on the 8th of June, 1993 when the fighting
14 A. Yes. When the men from our village withdrew from the line that
15 they had been manning, there were much fewer of them than the Muslim
16 soldiers who were attacking them. We realised that we were totally
17 encircled. And then the women who were hiding in shelters talked us into
18 surrendering, because there was no other way out. Then we spoke to the
19 soldiers who were in that part of the village, and then the doctor made a
20 big flag from the smaller Red Cross flags. She left the house. She
21 waved the flag and in that way showed the army that we were surrendering.
22 And then somebody on the other side shouted, "Stop shooting. They are
23 surrendering." A few minutes later the shooting stopped indeed.
24 Q. After the surrender of the Croats, what happened then?
25 A. When we surrendered, the doctor went to a group of Muslim
1 soldiers with that flag. After a certain time, she returned and she said
2 that they wanted us to gather all the weapons and bring them to them.
3 However, the men who carried weapons were afraid for their safety. They
4 said that there was nobody to guarantee their safety. Then the doctor
5 went back to talk to the soldiers, and the message she brought back was
6 that there was no other way out; either we were to surrender or they
7 would continue shooting. And then the men decided to surrender their
8 weapons. The doctor collected the weapons, together with a girl, and
9 they brought the weapons to the Muslim soldiers on the other side. Then
10 the Muslim soldiers entered the dispensary, in that part of the village,
11 and they separated soldiers on one side, separated soldiers on one side,
12 men on another side, women and children on a third side. They told us
13 to remain in the dispensary with the wounded.
14 Q. Amongst the soldiers, the defending soldiers of Maljine, was
15 there any of your family members?
16 A. Yes. I had a brother. It is a small village, and everybody --
17 mostly everybody is connected with family ties in that village.
18 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber the name of your brother.
19 A. My brother was an able-bodied man, and he was on the line of the
20 defence. His name was Miroslav. However, the other brother had been
21 wounded. He was not able-bodied. He was among the wounded. His name
22 was Stipo.
23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to your brother
24 Stipo Tavic and the other soldiers which had been -- which had
1 A. Once we surrendered, all the civilians and soldiers were lined in
2 a column -- I apologise. And that column was escorted by Muslim soldiers
3 and set off for Mehurici. Since the wounded could not move, we asked for
4 a truck to be provided for them. Once the truck was found, we put the
5 wounded on that truck. My brother was among them. However, although we
6 were supposed to go with the wounded and their escorts, there was an
7 argument among the Muslims, so the Mujahedins who had entered the village
8 and the BH army soldiers, they simply jumped on the truck and took it
9 away in an unknown direction. Thank you.
10 Later on I learnt that that truck ended up on the road towards
11 Bikose. The wounded were taken off that truck, and together with other
12 men, they were executed.
13 Q. Ms. Tavic, if you need a break, the Trial Chamber is certainly
14 very well prepared to have a short break.
15 A. I apologise. If you can give me just a moment.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to make a
17 five-minute break.
18 --- Break taken at 9.37 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 9.43 a.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Usher, can you please
21 bring the witness in.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may be seated, madam.
24 The Chamber would like to tell you that whenever you want to
25 interrupt the testimony, you should tell us. Whenever you feel that you
1 are not up to answering questions, we will accommodate your wish for a
3 Can we now continue? The Prosecution, you may resume your
5 MR. WITHOPF:
6 Q. Mrs. Tavic, you were telling the Trial Chamber that a number of
7 Croats, amongst them your brother, were put on a truck by the Mujahedin.
8 Can you tell the Trial Chamber who else in addition to your brother was
9 put on this truck?
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, the
12 Prosecutor says that the witness stated that some of the Croats, amongst
13 whom her brother, were put on a truck by the Mujahedin. As far as I can
14 see in the transcript, this was not said by the witness.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please rephrase your
16 question, because effectively the Defence has the right in objecting that
17 this is not what the witness said.
18 MR. WITHOPF: Very well. I'm going to rephrase the question.
19 Q. Ms. Tavic, do you still recall who put your brother, Stipo Tavic,
20 on the truck?
21 A. It was us who put the wounded on the truck, but the truck was
22 driven away by the Mujahedin, and that's the source of the
23 misunderstanding. Besides my brother, we put other wounded on the truck;
24 those were the wounded who were in the infirmary. I can give you their
25 names. All of them were executed except for Mara Juric, who was taken
1 off the truck before the truck stopped, and she was left on the road. In
2 addition to my brother, there was also Luka Balta, Jozo Balta, Predrag
3 Puselja, Anto Matic, Mara Juric, and Srecko Bobas. They were all
4 seriously wounded and they were all bedridden. They couldn't move.
5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to the rest of the
6 Croat civilians and soldiers.
7 A. The rest of the civilians and soldiers were taken in a group
8 towards Mehurici village. However, when they arrived at Poljanice they
9 were intercepted by the Mujahedin and they separated the soldiers wearing
10 uniforms from other -- and other able-bodied men, according to their
11 estimate. However, there was a 16-year-old boy, Stjepan Volic. And they
12 were all taken back towards Bikose. And together with the wounded, these
13 people were also shot dead. However, luckily enough, a few of them
14 managed to escape, so we learnt what had happened at Bikose.
15 When the Mujahedin took the wounded away, I remained with the
16 doctor and the other woman who was in the dispensary. A person called
17 Ibrahim came. He was from Kotor Varos. He told us that he would
18 transfer us personally to Mehurici. At that moment, another soldier came
19 up to us and said that the car that had taken the wounded pregnant woman
20 broke down, so we took another girl who was wounded in the leg. Ibrahim
21 found another car, and he personally took us to Mehurici village.
22 When we arrived in that village, we stopped in front of the
23 surgery in Mehurici. There was a lot of people there. Everybody was
24 shouting at us, cursing us. I can't remember the exact words. However,
25 the soldiers did escort us all the way to the surgery. Dr. Ribo was
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 there, a remarkable man he was.
2 At one moment, people were pushing to get in to take us out. He
3 stood up against them and told them, "Only over my dead body will you be
4 able to take these people out of here." He really helped us. We were
5 with him in the surgery. He helped us to take care of the pregnant
6 woman's wound.
7 Q. Ms. Tavic, may I stop you here. You were mentioning a surgeon,
8 Ibrahim, who took you to Mehurici. This Ibrahim, was he a soldier?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What --
11 A. He introduced himself to us as a commander.
12 Q. Was he a commander of the ABiH soldiers?
13 A. Yes. He bore the insignia of the BH army.
14 Q. Prior to leaving Maljine, did you notice what the ABiH soldiers
15 did in Maljine?
16 A. As they were passing through -- as I was passing through the
17 village, I could see in front of the houses that the soldiers were
18 getting into the house and out of them. In front of my house, there was
19 a lot of soldiers already. They entered houses. And the car that was in
20 the garage was already standing in front of the house. As we continued
21 walking through the village, in front of Mirko Kramar's house three men
22 were standing. One of them was Semir Prcanovic. The doctor asked
23 Ibrahim to stop. She got out of the car, and she told them, "Shame on
24 you. You have already started plundering, and we are still in the
25 village." The only thing that I took with me from the house were my
1 keys. When I returned to my house in 1996, I didn't even find the door
2 for that key. The only thing that I'm sorry that I lost are my photos,
3 my memories. This is as if we have never lived.
4 Q. Coming back to Mehurici, what happened to you and your group in
6 A. As we sent the wounded pregnant woman from the dispensary, some
7 soldiers came to fetch us with a car. They transferred us to some sort
8 of a command. They brought us into a building which was the Mehurici
9 school. They took us into a room. We found a soldier there. I remember
10 that he had all the ranks, but I can't remember what his rank was. But
11 he was a regular soldier, and his composure was very professional. He
12 introduced himself to us as Sanjin from Kotor Varos. And he told us that
13 this was enough for us to know. He told us that he would ask a few
14 questions. However, he asked us some very general questions.
15 Then another person entered the room. His last name was Fazlic.
16 He was very rude. He was very impertinent. He shouted, cursed, made a
17 lot of noise. But we did not have anything to say in addition to what we
18 knew that had happened in our village. He saw that this would take him
19 nowhere, so a few hours later they released us. We wanted to see what
20 had happened to the other fellow villagers, and they took us to the
22 In that school, when we arrived there, we saw that there was a
23 state of chaos. The people were frightened. They were asking after
24 various people. They didn't know what had happened to the people who had
25 been separated. And they told us that all the men had been separated
1 from the group and taken away, that they had been intercepted by the
2 Mujahedin. Smajo Tarakcija was at the entrance to the gymnasium. He
3 took our names as the representative of the civilian protection.
4 When I entered the gymnasium, two Mujahedin came up to me. They
5 started tearing the Red Cross band from me. They were talking to the
6 doctor and they asked her if she spoke English. They pointed to my neck,
7 and my uncle was also there. I managed to tear away from them. In any
8 case, there was a state of chaos in that big hall.
9 Q. You were telling the Trial Chamber that soldiers brought you to a
10 building which you identified as the Mehurici Elementary School.
11 Soldiers of which army brought you to this building?
12 A. Those were BH army soldiers. There were no Mujahedin at that
13 point. We saw them only when we got into this gymnasium.
14 Q. Ms. Tavic, I'm now going to show you a photograph. The
15 photograph will appear in front -- on the screen in front of you. And we
16 also have the respective hard copies available.
17 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Chamber and the Defence,
18 this photograph was taken in the course of the investigation against the
19 accused in the year 2002.
20 Q. Ms. Tavic, can you tell the Trial Chamber what you can see on
21 this photograph.
22 A. This is the primary school in Mehurici.
23 Q. Is this the school you are referring to -- you were referring to
24 as the building you were brought to by ABiH soldiers?
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Does the sports hall you were referring to a few minutes ago,
2 does it form part of this building or this complex of buildings?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. WITHOPF: The Prosecution wishes to tender this photograph
5 into evidence.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 Madam Registrar, can you give us the number for this exhibit.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P28.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Before that, can she put her initials and the date on this
12 Madam Witness, can you put your initials and the date, today's
13 date, on the photo.
14 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please show it to the Defence.
16 Madam Registrar, what is the number then? Can you please repeat.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is P28.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] P28.
19 Before I give you the floor, Prosecution, the Judge of the
20 Chamber has another question to ask.
21 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Madam witness, I have two
22 questions for you. The first is the following: When the soldiers of the
23 BH army attacked your village, were there any HVO soldiers in your
24 village? That is my first question.
25 My second question: Was your brother a soldier or a civilian?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In my village, there were
2 members of the HVO. There were some 20 of them, and they were all
3 locals. My brother was a member of the HVO, but ever since February,
4 when he was wounded, he was no longer active, because he had -- his legs
5 were fixed and immobile and he could only move with the help of crutches.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Madam Witness, that
7 means that on that day your brother was not dressed in military uniform;
8 he was in civilian clothes.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in civilian. He was wearing a
10 sweatsuit. This can be proven. And later on, when his remains were
11 found, he was wearing this same sweatsuit or jogging suit.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ask -- and you told me that he
13 had crutches, because he had been wounded earlier on.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when he got onto the truck,
16 he had those crutches with him?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you may
20 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Ms. Tavic, I'm now going to show you another photograph. The
22 photograph will appear on the screen in front of you, and we also have
23 the hard copies available.
24 MR. WITHOPF: For the information of the Trial Chamber and for
25 the information of the Defence, this photograph was taken in 2002 in the
1 course of the investigation against the accused.
2 Q. Ms. Tavic, you were refer -- sorry, you were referring to, a few
3 minutes ago, to a sports hall you were brought to. What can you see on
4 this photograph?
5 A. That is the sports hall, yes.
6 Q. For clarification, can you identify this sports hall as the
7 sports hall of the Mehurici Elementary School?
8 A. Yes, that is that sports hall in Mehurici.
9 Q. Can you please sign this photograph and date it.
10 MR. WITHOPF: And the Prosecution wishes to tender this
11 photograph into evidence.
12 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you give
14 me an exhibit number, please.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P29.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.
18 MR. WITHOPF:
19 Q. The sports hall in the Mehurici Elementary School you just
20 identified, Ms. Tavic, how many people were there when you joined them?
21 A. There was about 350 of us, and there were also civilians from
22 another village who had sought shelter in our village. So in addition to
23 civilians from Maljine, there were those from Postinje, Podovi, Orasac.
24 Q. What was the ethnicity of these people who were in the sports
1 A. We were all Croats.
2 Q. Were these about 350 Croats detained at the sports hall -- in the
3 sports hall?
4 A. Yes. We were taken there by force. Though at the interrogation
5 they tried to persuade us that they had sheltered us there for our own
6 safety and that they would quickly take us back to our homes, as if
7 nothing had happened.
8 Q. Did you and the other detainees stay voluntarily in the sports
9 hall of the Mehurici Elementary School?
10 A. Certainly not.
11 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who guarded the sports hall of the
12 Mehurici Elementary School?
13 A. For the first couple of days, there were no organised guards. In
14 the corridor leading to the gym, there were many soldiers, Mujahedin,
15 some sort of policemen. It was always crowded. However, our doctor
16 talked to one of the commanders and requested that no one be allowed to
17 enter the gym without her being notified, so that the people could calm
18 down. There were a lot of children crying and screaming. You can
19 imagine, 350 people were there. And after these requests of hers, they
20 were met and then we had regular guards consisting of two members of the
21 BH army and two policemen. They called them reservists. So that there
22 were four men at the door all the time.
23 Q. Ms. Tavic, could you identify --
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Madam Witness, you have
25 just told us, looking at the transcript, that there were officers. How
1 could you tell that there were officers, since you were detained in the
2 gym when these policemen were on the -- somewhere else? How did you know
3 that they were there? Did you understand the meaning of my question?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean how we knew that they
5 were in the corridor?
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You mentioned the presence of
7 officers who were in the corridor somewhere else. So I'm asking you:
8 Did you see them or did someone else tell you that they were there?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them, because there was a
10 corridor from the hall and it was always full of these soldiers and
11 policemen. And from that corridor, there was a toilet that we could use,
12 which was next to the gym, so that there was a long queue. We all had to
13 wait to go to the toilet. And as we were queueing up, we could see what
14 was happening in the corridor and outside in the yard.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a last point of
16 clarification: What distinction are you making between an officer and a
17 simple soldier? How do you make the distinction between an officer and a
18 simple soldier?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand the question. I
20 said, to make myself quite clear, that in the corridor there were always
21 many soldiers, Mujahedin, and policemen. Is that all right now?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That is not -- that doesn't
23 quite correspond. Because a moment ago you said that there were
24 officers, and now you're telling us that there were Mujahedin and
25 policemen but not officers. These were policemen?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't say "officers." I
2 said that our doctor wanted to talk to one of their commanders in order
3 to have normal guards there, instead of so many soldiers being there.
4 And then, after that, she spoke to one of their commanders in the
5 corridor. One of the soldiers took her to their command. She spoke to
6 them, and they promised to provide guards. And after that, we had normal
7 guards at the door, four men. Up until then, the corridor was full.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Ms. Tavic, you were telling the Trial Chamber that you have been
10 guarded or that in the corridors there were Mujahedin. Were there also
11 any other ABiH soldiers?
12 A. Yes. There were many soldiers in uniform. And after the guards
13 became regular guards consisting of two soldiers and two policemen, the
14 soldiers were from the 306th Brigade. They were regulars, neat, and I
15 think they changed shifts every four hours.
16 Q. How did you get to know that these soldiers were from the 306th
18 A. I already said they wore the insignia of the brigade. These
19 guards who were guarding us, from that day up until the 24th.
20 Q. You were telling the Trial Chamber that there have been about 350
21 detainees. And you also mentioned that there were babies amongst them.
22 Can you please, in rough numbers, detail how many men, how many women,
23 and how many children.
24 A. Well, roughly, 80 per cent were women and children. The rest
25 were men, mostly elderly. Babies, I think we had about 25. I think the
1 youngest was under one month old and she was crying most of the time.
2 She had to be carried around, because she was a very tiny infant.
3 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the food you received during
4 your detention.
5 A. For the first two or three days they would bring into the hall a
6 table and put on it pieces of bread made from flour that was used as
7 cattle feed and some cheese, pieces of cheese. And people could take as
8 much as they wanted. It was very disorderly and very poor quality.
9 After that, we asked that we distribute the food, to put some
10 order in it. And then we received two meals a day; one in the morning,
11 one in the afternoon. In the morning they would again bring in a piece
12 of bread made of this same kind of flour and quite a large can or -- tin
13 that would be shared by six. And in the afternoon again, we would get a
14 small piece of bread and some boiled rice, a spoonful, nothing more than
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about the hygienic conditions in
17 the Mehurici Elementary School sports hall.
18 A. Well, you can imagine. 350 of us to one toilet and which would
19 get blocked up every five minutes or so. We had to keep cleaning it.
20 And a quarrel could get started over it because one had to queue up to
21 get to the toilet. We would get clean water towards the end, and we had
22 to ask for it because there were so many small babies that we had to
23 bathe. And we had a wounded man, and he needed to be -- his wounds
24 needed to be dressed. So in the middle of that period, we would get
25 about 5 litres of warm water to be able to bathe the babies and to treat
1 the wounds of the wounded.
2 Q. You were telling us that amongst the 350 detainees there were a
3 number of men. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how the men were treated.
4 A. Certainly not well. They were taken out to work during the day.
5 I don't know. They went to dig pits, to clean the sewage. At least,
6 that's what they told us when they came back. They always came back
7 dirty. Some of the men were taken out for interrogation. Some of them,
8 when they came back, had visible traces of mistreatment, but they kept
9 quiet about it because if they were to say anything, they would fare even
10 worse. So no one dared say anything. People just kept quiet and
11 suffered in silence.
12 I remember Zeljo Puselj. He had been wounded in the hand, in the
13 arm. And he was bleeding a lot. He had a serious wound. The doctor
14 wanted him to be treated immediately and taken to Zenica, but they
15 wouldn't allow that. They apparently needed him for some information,
16 and he was taken out frequently and each time he came back in worse
17 condition. And afterwards, when we were exchanged, he was transferred to
18 the hospital in Zenica. And he's an invalid to this day as a consequence
19 of that.
20 Q. Ms. Tavic, for how long have you been detained in the Mehurici
21 Elementary School?
22 A. From the 6th to the 24th of June, 1993. Sorry, from the 8th
23 until the 24th. I'm sorry.
24 Q. For how long have the other detainees been detained in the
25 Mehurici Elementary School?
1 A. When we were about to be exchanged, the day prior to that they
2 separated the men and took them somewhere else and said that they would
3 be exchanged in another exchange procedure. But as far as I can
4 recollect - but I cannot claim that with any certainty - but I think it
5 was only a year later that they were exchanged, or something like that.
6 Q. Do you know how and who negotiated for the exchange?
7 A. Before we were exchanged, Mr. Salko Beba arrived with a group of
8 men. He introduced himself as a man who was in charge of exchanges, and
9 he told us to be ready, that we would probably be exchanged in the course
10 of the next day. I remember that the exchange was to be in the morning,
11 and then the expectation went on until the afternoon. About 3.00 the bus
12 us arrived. We got onto them. And we were driven then towards Dolac.
13 Throughout that time, I remember we were seen off at Mehurici by the
14 local population with all kinds of shouts and curses. As we were passing
15 through Donje Maljine, I saw my village, which had already been
16 destroyed, abandoned. What hadn't been destroyed had been moved into.
17 And then I realised that we would never go back there again.
18 The exchange took place at Dolac. After that, some went to Bila,
19 some to Vitez, some to Busovaca. People did the best they could. They
20 found accommodation with relatives or friends.
21 Q. Salko Beba, the person you described of having been in charge of
22 exchanges, was he an ABiH soldier?
23 A. Yes. I know this gentleman from before, since his sister went to
24 secondary school with me. So I met him even before. I knew him.
25 Q. Did he have a rank, a military rank at this point in time, if you
2 A. I really cannot remember that, because in those days I wasn't
3 interested in the military, nor was I familiar with ranks. So I am
4 unable to tell you that.
5 Q. Ms. Tavic, thank you very much. For the time being, I have no
6 further questions.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 Before the break, I would like to ask the witness to tell me, if
9 she can: She told us that there were 350 of them in this gym. There
10 were elderly people. There were women. There were children and babies,
11 in fact, and that she stayed there from the 8th to the 24th, that is, 16
12 days. Is that what you told us?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the beginning when you were
15 detained, were you told why they were holding you and the babies? Did
16 you know why you were being detained?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't. I mentioned earlier
18 on that when the three of us were being interrogated, then this Fazlic
19 told us that we should consider ourselves lucky, because they had brought
20 us there to save us from our own people and that we had nothing to worry
21 about and that we could go back to our homes the next day.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are now going to
23 have a break of 25 minutes. And after the break, it will be the turn of
24 the Defence to question you as part of the cross-examination, as the
25 Prosecution has told us they have no more questions for you. So you will
1 be able to rest for 25 minutes, and we will be resuming the hearing in 25
2 minutes' time. Thank you.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are resuming our session.
6 If I understood you well, the Prosecution does not have any more
7 questions; therefore, I'm giving the floor to the Defence for the
9 You have the floor.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning. I'm Edina Residovic, and I'm
13 defending General Hadzihasanovic. I'm going to ask you a few questions
14 about the things that you have already spoken about earlier this morning.
15 First of all, Ms. Tavic, is it correct that you already had an
16 interview with the representatives of the OTP and that in 2000 you gave a
17 statement to the Prosecutor?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You graduated in Sarajevo on the eve of the war; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You told us this morning - and can you please confirm it - when
22 the war started, you were in Maljine. After graduation, you did not
23 leave your village.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. You also told us that Maljine village was divided into two
1 separate villages, Gornje Maljine, with a Croat population; and Donje
2 Maljine, with a Bosniak population. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Is it true that above your village there is Mount Vlasic, on
5 which there were defence lines facing the Serbian army?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Is it also true that when the troops that were manning the lines
8 up there, both the BH army troops and the HVO army troops, would go to
9 their positions from the surrounding villages and that they would have to
10 pass in the vicinity of your village? Is that true?
11 A. Only our village lads would go through our village. There was
12 another road for others, so Muslims from Donje Maljine and boys from our
13 village -- the Croats from our village could go through our village.
14 Q. So the soldiers from Gornje and Donje Maljine would go through
15 your village to go to the lines?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. To my learned friend's question, you answered that at the end of
18 1992 and particularly at the beginning of 1993, when you went to visit
19 your brother in the Travnik hospital, in Travnik you saw quite a number
20 of foreigners. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Will you agree with me if I say that these foreigners differed
23 from the local population, both the Bosniak and the Croat population?
24 A. Yes, that's true.
25 Q. They looked Arab to you. Some of them -- or most of them had
1 turbans on their heads or some other head covers and they spoke a
2 language that we do not understand; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's true.
4 Q. You also stated - and can you please confirm it - that you saw
5 them in groups gathering around the Muslim charitable society which was
6 across the road from the civilian police station?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Was that the Merhamet humanitarian society, or was there a
9 humanitarian society that was founded by the foreigners?
10 A. I am not aware of the name. I know that it was a Muslim
11 humanitarian society. But who the founder of that society was, I don't
13 Q. Is it true that on one occasion in their presence you recognised
14 a schoolmate of yours who later on finished religious school and became a
16 A. Yes, I did say that to the Prosecutor in the year 2000, although
17 later on a friend tried to convince me that the opposite was true. So
18 I'm now in two minds. I don't know whether this was this gentleman or
19 not. A friend of mine, who was more familiar with the situation in
20 Travnik, told me that it was somebody else who looked very much like that
21 schoolmate of mine, so I wouldn't be able to confirm that at this stage.
22 Q. When you went to Travnik, on several occasions you noticed a
23 number of refugees who had arrived from Jajce, Kotor Varos, and the
25 A. Yes. I myself collected humanitarian aid in my village, and on
1 every Thursday we would take that to the secondary school in Travnik.
2 Q. I would like to move to the events that you testified about that
3 unfortunately happened on the 7th and the 8th of June in your village.
4 To the Prosecutor's question, you said that on that morning you were in
5 the makeshift dispensary that was organised by Dr. Ljuba Puselja; is that
7 A. Yes. That was on the 8th of June.
8 Q. Since the HVO lines had already fallen, some other people arrived
9 in your dispensary. They were civilians from your village. Is that also
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Also, at one moment, about 20 HVO soldiers who were withdrawing
13 from the line also arrived in your dispensary; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. At one point, as you described to us earlier this morning,
16 because of the fact that there were wounded and children there, Dr. Ljuba
17 Puselja decided to hoist an improvised Red Cross flag in order to start
18 negotiating with the army; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. And then you said that one of the ABiH soldiers, as soon as he
21 saw the flag, issued an order for the fire to stop.
22 A. Yes. A few moments later, somebody from the group shouted,
23 "Stop. Hold the fire. Stop firing."
24 Q. You were with Dr. Ljuba Puselja at the moment when the BH army
25 soldier introduced himself to you as Ibrahim from Kotor Varos, and you
1 thought that he was their commander; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He told you'll that they were the ABiH army and that nothing bad
4 would happen to you; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that's correct.
6 Q. To your request, he enabled you to look at all the houses in the
7 village in order to find other villagers who had not managed to arrive
8 safely at the dispensary; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. This all lasted a certain time.
11 A. I don't know how long it lasted. I remember that it rained
12 heavily, the roads were slippery. I was escorted by two soldiers, and we
13 went from one house to another shouting, "Is there anybody there? Come
14 out." So I wouldn't be able to tell you whether this lasted a half an
15 hour or an hour or even longer.
16 Q. You noticed that this soldier, Ibrahim, had already been a bit
17 edgy and he rushed you; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. As a matter of fact, he told you that he wanted you to hurry up
20 because he was afraid that Mujahedins would arrive and that he would not
21 be able to guarantee your safety.
22 A. Yes. Mujahedins at that time were on Greda. That was the former
23 defence line. They were shouting from up there. But it was impossible
24 to rush so many people. How could you rush the wounded?
25 Q. However, you could notice on Ibrahim that he was also restless
1 and that he was also afraid that the Mujahedin might arrive.
2 A. I don't know. I don't know. If I know somebody, then I know I
3 can trust them. If I don't know them, then how can I trust them? But I
4 believed that they could protect us the way civilians deserved to be
5 protected. There were a lot of them.
6 Q. To the Prosecutor's question, you answered that Dr. Ljuba Puselja
7 asked Ibrahim to give her a truck to transport the wounded and Ibrahim
8 granted that request; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then you took a truck from Franjo Pranjes and you put the wounded
11 on that truck yourself.
12 A. Yes. I was on the truck, together with a soldier, whereas others
13 were helping us pull the wounded onto the truck.
14 Q. Dr. Puselja also asked Ibrahim to allow you to accompany the
15 wounded on the truck and he accepted that.
16 A. Yes, he did indeed.
17 Q. Ibrahim also granted your request for the pregnant woman not to
18 be driven on a truck but by a vehicle, because the doctor said that the
19 truck would not be a suitable means of transportation for her.
20 A. Yes, that's true. She was in an advanced stage of pregnancy.
21 Q. Is it true that after all these preparations, at one point a
22 group of five men arrived in the village? Among them you recognised
23 three as being foreign. You thought that one of them was an interpreter
24 and one of them was a local Mujahedin. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's true.
1 Q. They all sported beards.
2 A. Yes, they all had beards. They wore different clothes. They
3 were very rude. They were shouting. And they were different and they
4 behaved differently than anybody.
5 Q. Ibrahim entered into an argument with them. They didn't allow
6 them to approach. However, they jumped onto the truck and they set the
7 truck in motion. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes. When they arrived, I was on the truck. I was putting the
9 wounded on the truck. And then I heard an argument. One of the wounded
10 told me, "Ivanka, turn around. They're shouting. They're calling your
11 name." One of them asked me to get off the truck and I saw one of those
12 Mujahedins pulling the doctor by her arm and showing signs that he would
13 kill her. Ibrahim pulled her aside. They started quarreling, and at one
14 point they just took the truck and took it away.
15 Q. And now, a couple of questions about your arrival in Mehurici.
16 You said that together with the pregnant woman you arrived in front of
17 the surgery in Mehurici.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. This was an -- the ABiH surgery; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, I assume that I -- that it was.
21 Q. You said that Dr. Ribo and Dr. Puselja started administering help
22 to this injured woman; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He prevented the mob from insulting you or hurting you.
25 A. Yes. They were pushing through the door; however, he stopped
1 them by saying, "You can have them only over my dead body," and I'm ever
2 so grateful to him for having done that.
3 Q. Dr. Ribo was an ABiH army doctor; is that correct?
4 A. I was not aware of that.
5 Q. Immediately after having examined the pregnant woman, he secured
6 her transportation to the hospital in Zenica; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Later on, when the three wounded -- the three persons who had
9 escaped from the execution site in Bikose were brought to Mehurici, among
10 them there was one person with serious injuries. Dr. Ribo took came of
11 him and sent him to the hospital in Zenica. Is that correct?
12 A. Yes. Darko Puselja, he had fainted. And I know that
13 Dr. Puselja insisted on him being treated and transferred to the hospital
14 in Zenica.
15 Q. Since you were at all times helping Dr. Puselja, you are aware of
16 the fact that all this time Dr. Ribo provided the doctor with all the
17 necessary drugs and medical equipment, all that he had at his disposal in
18 his surgery.
19 A. Yes. He would arrive and offer his help. However, whatever
20 medicines he offered, our doctor already had. So we did not need all
21 these medicines, because she already had all the bare necessities that
22 were needed for such situations.
23 Q. In the primary school, you were also visited by a member of the
24 civilian protection from Mehurici; is that correct?
25 A. I remember a member of the civilian protection from Donje
1 Maljine. He took our names on the first day. That's the only person I
3 Q. You said that later on, when order was restored, you were guarded
4 by the civilian reserve police and you were aware of that fact because
5 they had the insignia of the reserve police.
6 A. Yes, and that they told us that that's -- that was their name
7 "Reserve Police."
8 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to express to you my
9 condolences about the loss that you suffered during the war.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions, Your
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 The Defence of Mr. Kubura, do you wish to ask any questions?
14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of Mr. Kubura does
15 not have any questions to ask this witness.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
17 Prosecution, I would like to ask a few questions myself.
18 Questioned by the Court:
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were in your village
20 and you helped the doctor, we could understand from your testimony that
21 there was shooting, that there was gunfire. The members of the HVO, did
22 they also open fire during that stage after some of them had been
24 A. During the morning hours of the 7th of June, there was no gunfire
25 in the village. There was gunfire in the neighbouring village of
1 Postinje. And only when one of their wounded passed through our village
2 in a car to Guca Gora, then fire was opened from Donje Maljine on that
3 car that was passing through the village. At that moment, fire was
4 returned from our lines. Until then, we did not have any incidents.
5 There were no problems at all.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So you can
7 confirm to us that fire was returned from your lines.
8 And according to your knowledge, did the enemy army, the
9 opposition army, were they wounded? Were there any casualties? You were
10 in some sort of a dispensary in a medical institution. Did they bring
11 any other wounded to your institution from the other side?
12 A. No, they didn't. While I was in Mehurici, we were visited by
13 Fadil Prcanovic. He was the president of the civilian protection. And
14 he said that luckily enough they didn't have any casualties and that all
15 the bodies that were killed on our side would be buried in our cemetery
16 according to our customs. However, this didn't come true. We still
17 don't know where they were buried.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Owing to a question put to you
19 by the Prosecution, we learnt that you graduated from a university. What
20 did you graduate in?
21 A. It was tourism and the catering industry.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 The Prosecution, do you have any re-examination for this witness?
24 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no
25 further questions in re-examination.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Your testimony is now over, as the Prosecution, the Defence, and
3 the Judges have asked you questions. We understand that this was
4 especially painful for you, because the questions related to facts that
5 affected you personally. So the Chamber and the Judges of this Chamber
6 wish to convey their condolences, as did the Defence, for the loss of
7 your loved ones who were victims of this conflict. Thank you for your
8 testimony, and we wish you a safe journey home.
9 I'm going to ask the usher to accompany you out.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I believe that the next witness
13 will be available at 11.45. But before that, I should like to address
14 two points: The first is that we have been informed this morning of a
15 motion of the Defence regarding a motion filed by the Prosecution
16 regarding the list of witnesses and the exhibits.
17 As you know, we ordered that the Defence should brief us on their
18 position before the 12th of January. The Defence has informed us of a
19 series of difficulties in connection with these documents, and they
20 indicate in particular that they still have not received from the
21 Prosecution all the exhibits. Therefore, it would be desirable for the
22 Prosecution to contact the Defence to address outstanding problems. And
23 if certain problems have not been resolved that are covered by the
24 documents of this morning, that the Prosecution address to us a response
25 to this document in writing so that we are able to make a determination
1 by the 12th of January.
2 A second point I should like to address has to do with the
3 procedure of producing documents which are marked for identification. I
4 have noted that those documents are first shown to the witness, and all
5 of us have a copy: The Defence, the Judges, a copy for the Registry, and
6 a copy for our legal officer. It appears to me to be useful for the
7 accused that before these documents are distributed that the accused are
8 shown those documents, for them to make their observations in writing,
9 and then that they be given to the Defence. So should the accused -- if
10 the accused say nothing, it is very difficult for them to make any
11 observations themselves to the counsel except by writing bits of paper.
12 So it would be better for them to have this document in their hands and
13 then to give them to their Defence immediately.
14 If no one has any objection, in the future, when the Prosecution
15 wishes to produce a document, the Registry will give the copies to
16 everyone, and the accused will also have copies in front of them. They
17 will write down any observations they may have and pass them on to the
19 Does the Defence agree with this procedure, which can only be
20 beneficial for the accused? I should like to hear the oral response of
21 Defence counsel.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we believe that
23 that would be extremely useful, because you yourself see that our clients
24 often send us bits of paper to remind us of certain facts which are of
25 importance for their defence. And we feel that this would be very
1 significant for the documents that are being produced for the Court.
2 Thank you.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we fully
4 subscribe to your advice and your opinion and feel that this would be
5 very useful for our client.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Prosecution, please.
7 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honours, the Prosecution has no objections
8 against such a procedure.
9 In respect to the first issue, allegedly missing documents, this
10 appears to be more of a problem of a technical nature, and the
11 Prosecution is in contact with Defence counsel to find a solution.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I take note that this
13 suggestion of the Chamber is acceptable, and we will put it into practice
14 and it will be beneficial for the Defence and the accused.
15 Regarding documents, I dare to hope that the problems that have
16 been raised will be settled, and I should like to Prosecution to let us
17 know in writing as soon as possible what its position is with regard to
18 the points indicated on pages 8 and 9, and all the requests made by the
19 Defence to the Chamber concerning points A through to F.
20 The Prosecution is telling me that the witness will be available
21 in 15 minutes' time?
22 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, do you allow me, please, to confer
23 with my colleague for five minutes?
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may.
25 MR. WITHOPF: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I address the
2 Court with two issues?
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let the Prosecution confer
5 amongst themselves first, and after that we will hear you.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, yes.
8 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours. I apologise. The
9 witness was scheduled for tomorrow morning, and my colleague is still in
10 the middle of the proofing session. We didn't anticipate, due to the
11 fact that the cross-examination didn't take very long, that the witness
12 would need to be called today. The witness, however, will be ready for
13 examination-in-chief at 12.30 today.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you're telling
15 me that it won't be at quarter to 12.00 but, rather, at half past 12.00?
16 Because you first said he would be ready tomorrow, but now you're telling
17 me 12.30, so it's still today.
18 MR. WITHOPF: It's still today. 12.30 today.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And tomorrow you
20 plan to continue with this witness and you have another witness? How
21 many witnesses are we going to have tomorrow? Because tomorrow is the
22 last day of the year for our hearings.
23 MR. WITHOPF: We will continue with this witness tomorrow, and
24 there is no other witness for tomorrow.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, the witness whose
1 testimony will begin at 12.30 will be our last witness for this week; is
2 that right?
3 MR. WITHOPF: That's completely correct, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Defence counsel has two points to
6 raise: Yes. The first point has to do with the next witness; namely, as
7 the Prosecutor just said, we have received the list of witnesses for this
8 week. Today only Ms. Tavic was planned for, and the next witness for
9 tomorrow. Of course, it is better to finish our work early. But it is
10 not so good that we weren't fully prepared for this witness today.
11 However, we quite agree in having the examination-in-chief today.
12 However, as the Defence doesn't know how long the examination-in-chief
13 may last, I would like to request from the Trial Chamber even if the
14 examination-in-chief is completed today, that we start the
15 cross-examination tomorrow, because we haven't brought any of the
16 documents relating to this witness with us today.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding this first point,
18 there's no problem. Because if we start at half past 12.00, the
19 examination-in-chief will take place today and the cross-examination
20 tomorrow. And as we plan to finish at 13.45, we have to plan for that.
21 So there's no problem regarding that.
22 What is your second point?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The second point, Mr. President,
24 is linked to a continuing and acute problem that the Defence is
25 confronted with and which you too have been able to take note of during
1 these three weeks of trial. That is the question of translation of
3 We have already at our own initiative had documents translated
4 which we used in this Tribunal. Following your instructions, that a
5 document which is not translated by simultaneously interpreted in the
6 courtroom, we have seen that that doesn't function too well. The
7 Prosecution would not accept this method of producing documents because
8 he hadn't seen it in advance in a language he understands, which we
9 appreciate. And we do feel it is difficult to accept a document in that
10 way. And that is why we have had to only identify two or three
11 documents, mark them for identification until they are translated; and
12 secondly, we sought to avoid producing any document which we felt was not
13 so relevant and which could be accepted without translation.
14 Following suggestions of the Trial Chamber, we have submitted for
15 urgent translation a part of the documents relating to Dusina. We still
16 haven't received the translations of those documents and we have already
17 heard about events in Guca Gora, in Brajkovici, in Miletici, and Maljine.
18 Therefore, even the documents for the first event are not available to
19 the Defence and the Trial Chamber in translation, not to mention others
20 which we still haven't given for translation, because the service simply
21 is not able to keep track in time.
22 We would therefore request, Mr. President, that the Registry be
23 asked to allow us additional hours for working translations of documents
24 which we could use for the cross-examination. This would not entail a
25 significant number of documents, and we feel that with some additional
1 30 hours per month for each Defence team we would be able to ensure
2 translations for all the documents that would be used in the
3 cross-examination by the Defence.
4 Otherwise, I believe that this problem will escalate and we will
5 find ourselves in a situation to which we cannot find a solution. Thank
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding this important
8 problem has the Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura anything to add?
9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have nothing to
10 add. This is a common position of both Defence counsels.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is the opinion of the
13 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, in respect of the last issue raised by
14 my learned colleague, the Prosecution does appreciate that translations
15 are necessary for the proceedings. This is an issue between the Registry
16 and Defence counsel, and I'm sure the parties, meaning the Registry and
17 Defence counsel, will find a solution. It would certainly be very
18 beneficial for the conduct of this trial if such translations would be
19 done in due time.
20 In relation to the first issue, Your Honours, Mr. President, you
21 already mentioned that there will be no cross-examination of the next
22 witness today. I wish to add that it would be very good to know, very
23 beneficial for the Prosecution to know in advance if the Defence could
24 give us some sort of indication how long they intend to cross-examine the
25 witness. That would certainly be very helpful for our planning and for
1 our planning, in order not to waste the court time.
2 In addition, I wish to inform the Trial Chamber - and this is a
3 different issue - that the Prosecution disclosed on last Friday, the 12th
4 of December, the B/C/S translation of the military expert report to the
5 Defence, and it's the understanding of the Prosecution that Defence
6 announced that within five days after the disclosure of the B/C/S
7 translation they would file a motion in respect to the military expert
8 report. To date -- the Prosecution notes that to date we haven't
9 received such a motion.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before your ruling
11 was made, we stated clearly that we would provide our response to that
12 report five days after receiving the Bosnian version. It is true that on
13 Friday, at 6.00 p.m. we received the Bosnian translation. However,
14 Mr. President, your ruling was that we should make that response by the
15 12th. We shall certainly do so much earlier than that, than the deadline
16 you have set. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Regarding the first
18 point, in connection with the military expert's report, I think there's
19 no problem. We did ask the Defence to provide its response before the
20 12th of January. If it does so earlier, all the better.
21 Regarding the question of translation of documents, it has been
22 suggested that the Registry grant an additional 30 hours per month for
23 you to be able to resolve this problem that you are having regarding the
24 translation of documents in your possession. It seems to me that the
25 Registry has already granted you a certain number of hours, but
1 apparently that is not sufficient. We are therefore going to contact the
2 Registry in connection with this matter, and we will see what the
3 Registry will tell us regarding this suggestion that you be granted an
4 additional 30 hours per month. It is true - and I have noted that
5 repeatedly - that within the framework of the cross-examination you have
6 documents in B/C/S, of which we have no translation, either in English or
7 in French. And the Prosecution is also in a difficult position as a
8 result, and everything is becoming complicated as a result. Therefore,
9 it would be important that when you produce a document, that the
10 Prosecution and the Chamber at least should have a translation. And I
11 think we have all seen that that has not been possible.
12 However, on the basis of the practice of the past three weeks,
13 when you produce a document, there's one or two; there's not an avalanche
14 of documents. So I think that the documents that you produce could be
15 usefully translated in advance, and that is why I asked you to inform the
16 Registry that such-and-such a document needs to be translated because it
17 is exhibited. Perhaps the Registry is very busy; yet, within the
18 framework of the cross-examination, if you have documents in support of
19 your cross-examination, it is necessary for us to be able to check the
20 questions you are asking against the documents.
21 Another solution which could be a constraint for the Defence
22 would be when you have a document in B/C/S, to communicate it to the
23 Prosecution, and if they don't have a translation of it made, then that
24 would raise a problem, because you would be in a position to disclose
25 your documents before the cross-examination and that affects your
1 strategy. You prefer to keep them and produce them at the last moment;
2 at least, that is my understanding of the practice of the Defence. But
3 clearly those documents need to be translated, because if you produce a
4 document and you ask a question about it, we need to be able to verify
5 the relevance and make sure that the reply of the witness is in
6 conformity with the question put relating to a document. Therefore, we
7 shall inform the Registry about this, and I shall produce appropriate
8 instructions to our legal officer that we send a memo to the Registry
9 noting the difficulties encountered by the Defence.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
11 your support and for your efforts to assist us.
12 In connection with the reply of the Prosecution linked to the
13 expert report, I would like to say that in connection with our request --
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please start again.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] A moment ago you instructed us
16 and the Prosecutor to cooperate in connection with our request. We have
17 received the translation of the expert report but not all the documents
18 attached to that report, and that is why I believe that this is a problem
19 that we will resolve with the Prosecution and, as I have said, we will
20 have our response ready even before the 12th of January.
21 As for the question of translation, I just wish to tell you,
22 Mr. President, that both Defence teams have been given 75 hours each for
23 translation purposes but only for the needs of the accused, which means
24 for communication with the accused. We have not been granted a single
25 hour for the translation of documents. So to clarify this situation with
1 the Registry, we would kindly ask that we be allowed if we don't use
2 those 75 hours for communication with the accused, that we be given a
3 maximum of another 30 hours per Defence team, which we would use for the
4 translation of documents, as I have proposed. So we haven't been granted
5 a single hour for the translation of documents. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand you
7 well, you are suggesting to the Chamber to discuss with the Registry once
8 again the question of 75 hours and whether some of those hours could be
9 switched over; is that right? Because there are two possibilities:
10 Either you will contact the Registry, or I will send a memo to the
11 Registry to draw attention to the problem. Perhaps it might be more
12 practical for you to do that first, that is, to contact the Registry in
13 that connection. And depending on the reply of the Registry, you will
14 inform us again, and then I will move on to the next stage. But I think
15 you understand that the Chamber has no control over the budget. I have
16 no personal budget from which I can grant you anything for this purpose.
17 On the other hand, the Chamber has to make sure that the rights
18 of the accused are respected and that the Defence can properly do its
19 work. And this is indeed a problem that you are facing and which the
20 Chamber is aware of. Therefore, I invite you very shortly to inform the
21 Registry about this, to ask them to respond within a short period of
22 time. And if there is no response from the Registry, you will let me
23 know officially, and I think a motion would be preferable.
24 If we agree ...
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will do as you
1 have advised us.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 It is ten to 12.00. We are going to have the usual break early,
4 and we will continue without a break after that. So we will resume the
5 hearing at 12.30.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have
9 requested protective measures. Can you orally explain the reasons for
10 which you requested those protective measures.
11 We are now in closed session? Are we in private session,
12 Madam Registrar?
13 [Private session]
12 Page 1204 redacted, private session
12 Page 1205 redacted, private session
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to confirm whether
25 you are receiving the interpretation. If you do, just say yes.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 Since you have requested protective measures, we have decided
4 that you will be questioned under a pseudonym, which will be AH. Your
5 face will be protected by a technical system; that means that it will be
6 distorted. Since the blinds have been pulled down, the public in the
7 gallery could not see you. So we have given you a pseudonym. So I am
8 not going to ask you your name, your date and place of birth. I'm just
9 going to ask you to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going
10 to show you. So can you please read the solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS AH
14 [Witness answered through interpreter] .
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may be seated.
16 We have exactly one hour. Madam Witness, you are first going to
17 be asked questions by the Prosecution. Today this may last for an hour.
18 And tomorrow you are going to be cross-examined by the Defence. So you
19 will be obliged to stay here until tomorrow. Tomorrow we shall resume at
20 9.00 in the morning.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not
22 absolutely sure, however, based on the piece that I have before this
23 Tribunal, I believe that it was the practice for a witness to write her
24 name on a piece of paper that will then be shown to us so all of us are
25 convinced that she is the witness that has entered the courtroom. After
1 that, this piece of paper is destroyed. So if you believe that this is
2 an appropriate procedure, I would kindly ask for you to order for this to
3 be done.
4 MR. STAMP: If it please you, Mr. President, we intend to adopt a
5 similar procedure which will achieve the same objective.
6 Perhaps the Court could be shown the sheet.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Stamp.
10 MR. STAMP: On the --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Witness, we have shown
12 you this piece of paper for identification. If this is your name, then
13 just say yes. We are going to show this piece of paper to the Defence
14 because the Defence is right, they need to know that there is no mistake
15 in identity. And they need to know whether this is indeed you. And this
16 is the means of identification. This is the identification, but don't
17 use your name, because your personal data are confidential.
18 This is going to be under seal, because this is the only
19 identification that we have of you.
20 Madam Witness, please look at this paper and verify for us that
21 this is indeed you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the
24 witness at first wanted to add something to this piece of paper. If that
25 is correct, I believe that she should actually write her full name.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you know, we respect the
2 rights of the Defence.
3 Usher, can you please bring me this document for my verification.
4 What we can do now is for the witness to add in her own hand
5 either the first name or the family name for us to have a written
7 Madam, on the paper that we have prepared for you, can you add
8 what you want in your own handwriting, either your name or your family
10 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please show this paper
12 to the Prosecution.
13 Can you please show it to the Defence as well.
14 To the accused.
15 Madam Registrar, can you please give me a number under seal.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P30 under seal.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then, P30 under
19 Madam Registrar, can you please show this document to the Judges,
20 who have still not seen it in its integral version.
21 I confirm that the witness has authenticated this document and
22 added either her own maiden family name or her married family name.
23 After we have done these formalities, we're going to proceed and
24 we are going to give the floor to the Prosecution for their questions.
25 Prosecution, make sure you don't mention the witness's name,
1 because the witness is protected. Try to avoid putting questions that
2 might identify her for the general public. I know it may prove to be a
3 different exercise; however, we are aware of your talents, and we believe
4 that you are going to be able to do that without any difficulties
6 MR. STAMP: Mr. President, I think you're too kind.
7 Examined by Mr. Stamp:
8 Q. Madam, could you tell us, without telling us your precise
9 occupation, in what field of endeavour that you work in.
13 [Private session]
12 Page 1212 redacted, private session
12 Page 1213 redacted, private session
1 [Closed session]
12 Pages 1214 to 1225 redacted, private session
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Friday, the 19th day
23 of December, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.