1 Friday, 19 December 2003
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're in open session, and I'd
6 like to ask the Registrar to call the case first, please. Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. May we have the
10 appearances for the Prosecution first.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning, Counsel.
12 For the Prosecution, Chester Stamp and Ekkehard Withopf, with Kimberly
13 Fleming as the case manager.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Defence,
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.
17 Good morning, Your Honours. For the Defence of General Hadzihasanovic,
18 Edina Residovic, Defence counsel Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Mirna
19 Milanovic, legal assistant. Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
21 For the Defence of Mr. Kubura, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic and our legal
22 assistant, Mr. Nermin Mulalic.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 The Chamber would like to say good morning to all those present,
25 to the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, and of course the other
1 members of the staff of this Tribunal.
2 Before we proceed from where we left off yesterday - that is to
3 say, the testimony of the witness we're examining - I should like to
4 address two points. One concerns the translation and that matter was
5 raised yesterday.
6 In the meantime, there was a meeting with the Registry to
7 discuss the matter, and according to the information I have been given, I
8 should like to inform you of the following. It seems that at the
9 beginning, the Defence gave the CLSS - that is to say, the translation
10 service - 3.000 pages to deal with for translation. Now, when faced with
11 3.000 pages, the CLSS asked the Defence to tell them which portions had
12 priority for translation purposes, but it appears that there was no
13 precise answer given, no response from them.
14 Now, as we have such a lot of translation, they managed to
15 translate 1.300 pages of those 3.000, which leaves 1.700 pages to
17 In view of the importance of this issue, the Registrar has
18 considered that all the material produced by the Defence, the destination
19 of which is the Tribunal, will be translated. So there are two types of
20 documents in question. They are either exhibits you wish to tender, and
21 as we said, you must present them well in advance to the CLSS for
22 translation - or the other types of documents were documents you would be
23 using in the cross-examination but which will not be tendered into
24 evidence during the proceedings.
25 So having received those guidelines, that seems to be quite
1 different than what was envisaged thus far. So what was decided went in
2 the direction of meeting the Defence's requirements.
3 Now, concerning the aspects that I should like to call financial
4 or budgetary, this is how we stand. It appears that a certain sum of
5 money has been allotted to the Defence and that that sum of money in bulk
6 includes costs and expenditure for translations, and so the Defence may
7 use a portion of that money for translation purposes. Of course, that
8 doesn't resolve the question that you raised with respect to additional
10 So that is what I'm able to tell you today, and perhaps that will
11 be enough for the Defence. Perhaps we need to look into the matter
12 additionally. So I think that you should contact the relevant Registry
13 services to settle the matter once and for all. Of course, in the extent
14 to which the Chamber can be of assistance and needs translations of
15 documents in the two languages are the ones that you have in B/C/S and
16 provide in B/C/S. So that's the first point I wanted to make.
17 Would anybody like to take the floor to discuss the matter
18 further, or would you need time for thought?
19 Yes. You have the floor, madam.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we really do not
21 wish to burden the Trial Chamber with matters which we know we'll have to
22 deal with and resolve with the Registry; however, as we depend on the
23 translated documents and the defence of our clients depends on the
24 translation of those documents, we did have to address you, the Trial
1 Mr. President, in November -- you came to this Tribunal in
2 November. In November of the previous year - that is to say, one year
3 previously - we put forward a series of written motions because we had
4 experience from before and knew that we could be faced with a difficult
5 situation. Yes, we will continue our discussion and dialogue with the
6 Registry, but I have to tell you that it is very difficult for the
7 Defence to give the CLSS documents from one day to the next or one week
8 to the next which it needs to use for the witness in hand, because we
9 have received witnesses for just the next seven days. So this is a very
10 tight deadline. And the translation service, even with the best will in
11 the world, will not be able to translate all the material. So it was for
12 these reasons that we considered that it would be a good idea for a just
13 trial to be able to discuss this matter with the Registry, to draw their
14 attention to the fact that we would use the hours more flexibly that we
15 were given for translation purposes in the first place: For us to avoid
16 situations of this kind, the ones we face.
17 And secondly, I'm not qualified sufficiently to say whether in
18 the lump sum that we were given that this envisages translation too. I
19 took part in discussions which brought about this system of the lump sum,
20 and nobody mentioned the costs of translation within the lump sum, but
21 legal assistants -- rather, case managers, investigators, and other staff
22 and personnel which enables the Defence team to perform its function in
23 the courtroom.
24 However, I'd like to extend my gratitude to you for taking up the
25 matter. We shall do our best to give the -- provide the Registry with
1 the most important documents, but I must say once again, Your Honours, in
2 view of the experience we've gained over the past year, these problems
3 will crop up and they will accrue. So I hope you will understand the
4 situation and do your best to help the Defence in performing its duties.
5 Thank you.
6 I don't know whether it would be necessary, but my learned
7 colleague, Mr. Stephane Bourgon, took part in all these negotiations.
8 He's written hundreds of pages, attended many, many meetings. And if the
9 Trial Chamber feels that we need to say more on the matter, we are, of
10 course, always ready to provide you with further information. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.
12 What about Mr. Kubura's Defence? Would they like to say anything
13 on the subject?
14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have no
15 further comments.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 I should just like to inform the Defence that for practical
18 purposes, in order to try and solve the difficulties facing us, that the
19 Defence is facing, that if you have a document in B/C/S which has not
20 been translated, can you always tell us, because we have realised that
21 some documents have been integrated international procedure with respect
22 to instructions and information on fact. So if you're producing
23 documents for the cross-examination, of course the Prosecution does not
24 know which those are, nor does the Trial Chamber. But the practical
25 decision that we have made is that you should tell us, place your
1 confidence in us, and tell us the contents of the document, because as
2 the vehicles of justice, of course you're not going to give a different
3 interpretation with respect to the contents of the document. So we'd
4 like to know the contents of the document, and provisionally such a
5 document could be introduced into the proceedings and marked for
6 identification, been given a provisional number. The document would then
7 be sent off to the translation service for translation, and then there
8 would be a final tendering into evidence once the document has been
9 translated. This would perhaps allow us to solve part of the difficulty
10 you're facing. Not all of them, of course, but a part of the difficulty,
11 get round the matter that way.
12 So I think it would be useful if you once again contact the
13 Registry for us to be able to proceed as quickly as possible. Of course,
14 as you know full well, if your difficulties prove to be insurmountable,
15 it would of course be possible for you to file a motion to us about that
16 and with respect to the equality of arms that you would like to see
18 We'll see what we'll decide in that case.
19 Now, with respect to the second point, in the coming hour we
20 shall be making our ruling known to you concerning the motion that was
21 filed with respect to modifying our previous oral ruling and the
22 certificate of appeal. So in the course of the day, we can expect to
23 have that correction in the form. And the Chamber partially confirms its
24 decision and ruling and certifies the appeal made by the Prosecution. So
25 the Appeals Chamber will have to give its ruling with respect to the
1 matter. As the Appeals Chamber will be taking a certain amount of time
2 -- but in view of the urgency of the matter, I think they'll be able to
3 give us a ruling shortly -- the Trial Chamber would like to say that we
4 should take it on a case-by-case basis, if other cases arise, but having
5 respect for the oral ruling that you have all been apprised of, and
6 including what I've said here today.
7 Now, if we have no further matters to attend to, let us move on
8 and we'll be in private session.
9 I'd like to ask Madam Registrar to see to the practical ways of
10 doing that and to tell me when we are in private session.
11 [Closed session]
12 Pages 1234 to 1261 redacted, closed session
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session. I'd
1 like to ask the Prosecution now whether they have a new witness for us or
2 whether we've exhausted the witnesses for this week.
3 MR. WITHOPF: Your Honour, as already announced yesterday,
4 there's no further witness available for today.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me address all parties.
6 Nobody wishes to raise any matters at this point? If not, I adjourn the
7 meeting for today. It is 10.30 a.m., which coincides with our usual
8 break. The Judges of this Trial Chamber schedule the next meeting on
9 Monday, the 12th of January. We'll see you all back. I think we're
10 having an afternoon session on the 12th of January, although I haven't
11 received confirmation yet. So we meet again in three weeks' time.
12 In the meantime, I should like to wish one and all a happy
13 festive season for the end of the year for yourselves and your families
14 and we'll reconvene on the 12th of January, 2004.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.28 a.m.,
16 to be reconvened on the 12th day of January,
17 2004, at 2.15 p.m.