1 Wednesday, 11 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Thank you.
10 [Interpretation] Appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. WITHOPF: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon,
12 Counsel. For the Prosecution, Daryl Mundis, Ekkehard Withopf, our
13 intern, Kyle Wood, and the case manager, Kimberly Fleming.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Appearances for the Defence, please.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
17 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and
18 Muriel Cauvin, legal assistant. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 On behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
22 Mr. Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 The Chamber would like to greet everybody who is present in the
25 courtroom, the Prosecution, the Defence, the accused, as well as the
1 personnel of the Chamber.
2 Before we begin today's sitting with the witness that has been
3 planned, I have three issues to raise on behalf of the Chamber. The
4 first one: Within the next few hours, the Chamber is going to render its
5 decision with regard to Witness 108. You know that there is an expert
6 who was planned to testify as Witness 108. I would kindly ask the
7 parties to read this decision carefully because there are a number of
8 issues that will be connected with tendering exhibits into evidence
9 through this expert witness.
10 The second issue we wish to raise is as follows: We are faced
11 with a request for accepting certain facts. The motion was submitted by
12 the Defence. The Defence is asking from the Chamber to accept certain
13 facts as adjudicated facts. Those concern the events in the Lasva
14 Valley. The Prosecution submitted its answer on the 5th of February;
15 that was last week. The Defence replied to that response, and in the
16 Defence's reply, there are some additional changes.
17 Now I'm turning towards the Prosecution. I would like to hear
18 from the Prosecution what is their position regarding the reply by the
19 Defence and regarding the observations put forward by the Defence in the
20 reply that they submitted on the 5th of February, 2004.
21 Once we hear what the Prosecution thinks, we will render our
22 final decision on this. In this way, we shall resolve the issues with
23 regard to all the submissions that have been submitted, unless there are
24 some submissions in the future. I'm sure that this is going to be the
25 case as well.
1 And now the third issue: At the beginning of these proceedings,
2 on the 3rd of December, 2003, the Defence requested the admission of a
3 videotape featuring the Lasva Valley, and it is an aerial video. This
4 exhibit was marked DH1. We saw this video footage; however this video
5 footage also features some other things. There's a helicopter flying
6 above the Lasva Valley and some other events are depicted. At this
7 moment the Defence has to revise some technical means. They have to
8 revisit that videotape and they have to replace the videotape that was
9 tendered by a videotape which will contain exclusively the view of the
10 Lasva Valley and nothing else. Because in view of what we said the last
11 time with regard to the request of the Prosecution has to apply to the
12 request of the Defence. This was the first exhibit that was tendered,
13 and at that time you did not make copies for all the parties. There was
14 just one videotape. And the Prosecution did not have the opportunity to
15 watch this videotape.
16 I am therefore inviting the Defence to revisit this tape, and if
17 what I've just said is indeed the truth, you have to tender a new tape.
18 You have to show it to the Prosecution first. And we would like to have
19 on this Exhibit, DH1, only a view of the Lasva Valley and nothing else.
20 Maybe at this moment you're not aware of the fact that there are
21 some other elements on that video. The helicopter must have flown a bit
22 further and maybe you have not noticed that. I draw your attention to
23 this issue, as well as to the Prosecution. I invite the Defence to
24 revisit this exhibit, DH1, and to give us a new cassette -- a new
25 videotape. Since you don't have it in front of you, obviously you cannot
1 give us any observations regarding this videotape.
2 If there are no other issues to be raised, we are going to
3 proceed with the witness. But since the protective measures have been
4 granted, we are going to go into private session, and I'm turning to the
5 Prosecution to confirm whether this is the case.
6 Mr. Withopf, did you indeed ask for private session?
7 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, we are about to ask for private session,
8 Mr. President, and Mr. Mundis will make an oral application for closed
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then.
11 Thank you. Mr. Registrar, can we go into private session,
13 [Private session]
12 Pages 2654 to 2660 redacted, private session
5 [Open session]
24 [Private session]
12 Page 2665 redacted, private session
12 Page 2666 redacted, private session
12 Page 2667 redacted, private session
12 Page 2668 redacted, private session
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session now.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session. It is
9 ten past 3.00. We are going to suspend this hearing for 20 minutes, and
10 we shall resume at half past 3.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.11 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 3.33 p.m.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We shall now
14 resume. I would kindly ask Mr. Registrar to move into private session,
16 [Private session]
12 Pages 2670 to 2687 redacted, private session
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is now half past 4.00. We
11 can continue with the next witness. I'm going to ask Madam Usher to
12 bring the witness into the courtroom.
13 Can you please signal, Mr. Registrar, at what point we have to
14 have the next technical break, because I have lost the trace of the
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you hear my words
20 translated into your language?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called by the
23 Prosecution to testify in this case. Can you please give us your name.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Berislav Marjanovic. I
25 was born on the 27th of February, 1962 in Paklarevo, Travnik
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What is your
3 profession? What do you do for a living?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a farmer.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you are in agriculture.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1993, what was your
8 profession? What did you do ten years ago?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993 I was also a farmer. I was
10 engaged in agriculture.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. A question
12 that I would like to ask you now, because it's very important for the
13 Trial Chamber: Have you already testified before in the Tribunal or is
14 this the first time you testify?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never been convicted. I
16 have never appeared before any tribunal.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have not asked you whether
18 you have ever been convicted, I just asked you whether you have ever
19 witnessed or testified in front of a tribunal. Have you ever appeared
20 before a judge as a witness?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have never been in a
22 courtroom. I have never testified before any judge.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. This is
24 very important for us.
25 Since this is your first testimony before any tribunal, you have
1 to take a solemn declaration. You have to read a text which you are not
2 familiar with, so you will read it in your own language.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may
6 be seated.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 WITNESS: BERISLAV MARJANOVIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So this is your first testimony
11 before any judge. You are very far from your own country. I would like
12 to give you some explanations about your testimony.
13 You have been called by the Prosecution. And within these
14 proceedings, the Prosecution, seated on your right, are going to ask you
15 some questions. This examination will last for a while. We are to sit
16 until 7.00. When questions are put to you, please try to answer as
17 completely as possible. If you don't know an answer, you simply say "I
18 don't know." If you don't understand a question, you are allowed to say
19 so and then the question will be rephrased. Whatever difficulties you
20 may have, please tell us. The Judges, which are in front of you, will
21 help you with those difficulties.
22 When you hear a question, think and respond as truthfully and as
23 completely as you can. When the Prosecution is done with their
24 questions, then the Defence, seated on your left - there is six of them,
25 actually, but only two will be asking you questions - they're going to
1 ask you questions based on what you said in response to the Prosecution.
2 Again, you have to be precise in your answers and you have to provide
3 complete answers. Sometimes those questions will be complicated and
4 difficult; at that point, if you think that the questions are difficult,
5 you may state so and the question will be rephrased. If the question is
6 put too fast, you indicate that to us and then the parties will give you
7 enough time to think and to reply.
8 The three Judges, seated in front of you, may also ask for some
9 clarifications. They can also ask you questions.
10 Did you understand all this?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I also have to tell you that
13 you have taken the solemn declaration and you have promised to be
14 speaking the truth and nothing but the truth. If you lie to us or if you
15 give us a false testimony, that may put you in danger of being punishable
16 by law. Avoid this and tell us nothing but the truth.
17 If at any point when you're asked a question the Judges don't
18 know what the circumstances were and what you are going to answer, but
19 try to avoid giving answers that may one day be used against you. So you
20 may indicate that there are such questions, that if you answer them the
21 answers may be turned against you. So you have to indicate that to us.
22 In a nutshell, we would like to hear that if you -- at any point
23 in time you have any problems with the questions.
24 The Prosecution is going to examine you first; the Defence is
25 going to cross-examine you; and the Judges also have the right to ask you
1 questions. But you also have your rights, and those rights will be
3 We will now begin. We have to make a break within 40 minutes for
4 a break. It will be Mrs. Benjamin who's going to lead the
5 examination-in-chief. We would like to greet you, Mrs. Benjamin, because
6 you have just joined us. I give you the floor for your
8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Good afternoon to you, Mr. President, Your Honours, and to Mr.
11 Examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:
12 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, you were born in the village of Paklarevo.
13 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber in which municipality is this
14 village situated.
15 A. It is situated in the municipality of Travnik.
16 Q. And could you give us the ethnic composition of this village.
17 A. The village was inhabited exclusively by Croats.
18 Q. Did you do compulsory national service with the JNA?
19 A. Yes, I did, for 12 months, in 1987.
20 Q. Were you ever enlisted as a member of any other military
21 organisation or of a village guard?
22 A. I was in a patrol, but not any other army but the JNA.
23 Q. Could you tell us when you joined the patrol.
24 A. I don't know, but sometime in April, when we started patrolling.
25 Actually, the Serbs were on Mount Vlasic, and we had patrols to defend
1 ourselves from them.
2 Q. And could you give us the year. April of what year, please?
3 A. This was in 1992.
4 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, you indicated to the Trial Chamber that the Serbs
5 were near to your village. Could you tell us from April 1992 what
6 transpired with the appearance of the Serbs.
7 A. What happened was the shelling of Paklarevo and surrounding
8 villages, Travnik, Turbe, and the environs. I was walking on foot from
9 my house, and a shell fell behind me and wounded me seriously.
10 Q. How often did the shelling take place then?
11 A. It was occasional, but that day was the worst, the 15th of May,
13 Q. On the 15th of May, 1992, you said you were injured while you
14 were walking. Could you state for the Trial Chamber what injuries you
16 A. There were shrapnel that hit my right shoulder, head, ribs, and
17 right thigh.
18 Q. And did you -- do you recover -- or did you recover from these
19 injuries? Do you have scars from these injuries?
20 A. I do have scars. When I was injured, I was transferred to the
21 hospital in Travnik. Immediately I was transferred there, and I spent
22 some ten days there.
23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: With the permission of the Trial Chamber,
24 Mr. President and Your Honours, the witness would like to show the Trial
25 Chamber his scars at this moment, that he suffered.
1 Q. Witness, could you please indicate to the Trial Chamber the scars
2 that you suffered.
3 A. You mean from the shrapnel?
4 Q. Yes, please, the ones that you just told us about. Could you
5 show us, please.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a moment. Before he shows
7 anything, the Defence certainly has an objection. And I'm listening.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence has an
9 objection. These injuries occurred before the indictment period, and I
10 don't see that there's any need for the witness to have to be embarrassed
11 by having to show the scars of his injuries.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, either these
13 injuries are directly linked to the indictment or the injuries occurred
14 prior to the indictment period, because in the indictment period the
15 infractions start from January 1993 - January, May, June. Or if these
16 injuries occurred in 1992, he tells us he was injured and we take note of
17 it, but there's no point of him actually testifying about that. So what
18 is the relevance of your question in relation to the indictment?
19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the scars are still very much
20 visible, and the scars, the injuries that were received before the
21 indictment are considered in the indictment -- are referred to in the
22 indictment at the time. But if the Trial Chamber feels that it is not
23 necessary, the Prosecution will abide by the ruling. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness told us that he was
25 injured in 1992 and we take note of it, and there's no need for us to
1 have an exposure of his body. If he tells us he was injured, there's no
2 need to challenge that. But as the Defence has rightly noted, it doesn't
3 come within the scope of the acts that the accused have been charged
4 with, because the injuries were caused during a previous period. So you
5 wanted us to learn that he was injured previously, and we take note of
6 that. Now please move on.
7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Much obliged, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, upon your release from the hospital, could you
9 tell the Trial Chamber where you were taken to.
10 A. When I was released from hospital, I was taken to the village of
11 Maljine, because my wife is from that village. And I stayed there for a
12 year. And I went for treatment to Travnik and to Guca Gora, actually,
13 for bandaging of my wounds.
14 Q. So in the beginning of the year 1993, where were you living?
15 A. I was living in the village of Maljine, from the 15th of May
16 1992, when I was wounded. Then I was discharged from hospital and I was
17 taken to the village of Maljine, and I lived there until the 8th of June,
19 Q. Now, could you -- could you state for the Trial Chamber the
20 atmosphere in Maljine in the beginning of 1993 up until when you left.
21 Tell us what Maljine was -- what was about.
22 A. The atmosphere was good, up until June. In May, everything was
23 still okay. In June, what happened happened.
24 Q. Something happened in June of 1993 in Maljine. Could you please
25 tell the Trial Chamber.
1 A. On the 8th of June, 1993, in the village of Maljine -- or,
2 rather, the village of Maljine was attacked by the Army of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina and the Mujahedin at dawn, about 4.00 or 5.00 in the morning.
4 When they captured the village and there was shooting all around -- I
5 forgot to mention that at dawn there was heavy shelling, first of all,
6 and then came the infantry weapons and the shooting was very loud. And
7 this went on until sometime in the afternoon.
8 Q. During this time, what did you do?
9 A. I was sleeping, and the noise woke me up. I had two children;
10 one was four and a half months old and the other was three and a half
11 years old. I took the kids and fled to the basement because of the
13 As I looked around, I saw that a couple of stables were on fire,
14 and then I'd go back into the basement and wait for my destiny.
15 Q. Where was your house located in Maljine?
16 A. My house was to the right when you enter the village. Actually,
17 it wasn't my house; it was my brother-in-law's house, but I stayed there.
18 And I could see the rest of the village that was burning and I could hear
19 the shooting and the cries of "Allah-U-Ekber" and "Tekbir."
20 Q. At that time, were you in possession of a pistol?
21 A. I had my own personal pistol, which I had brought with me and for
22 which I had a licence.
23 Q. Did you fire back?
24 A. I didn't fire. I didn't even try to fire. I had already been
25 wounded, and what would I do with a pistol?
1 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber how you felt at that moment.
2 A. I felt troubled, scared. I feared for the children, for my
4 Q. During that time, did you hear any voices saying anything?
5 A. We could hear them shouting afterwards, "Surrender. Come out of
6 your houses and basements. Those that don't come out will get killed."
7 And there were others in this basement, and we came out. We came down to
8 the village and entered a yard, and we waited there. And then we saw
9 columns passing in the direction of Mehurici.
10 Q. Now, you have stated to the Trial Chamber that "they told us to
11 come out." Could you tell the Trial Chamber who you refer to when you
12 say "they."
13 A. The Muslim army, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. And did you come out?
15 A. Yes, we did come out. All of us came out to a yard in front of a
16 house. Those who had weapons surrendered those weapons. I gave in my
17 personal pistol. And then we waited to leave towards Mehurici.
18 Q. Could you tell the Court how many people were in this group and
19 the ethnic composition of the members of the group.
20 A. The group consisted of Croats. There were about 50 of us in one
21 group, and some groups had already left before that towards Mehurici.
22 Q. Who escorted your group to Mehurici?
23 A. Our group was escorted by the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
24 soldiers of the Muslim army. And we went near to the Bikosi village, and
25 there was a Mujahedin there standing by a Golf car, and he waved with his
1 hand that three of four of us should push his car because he couldn't
2 ignite it. So we pushed the car for a while, until it started going on
3 its own. Then again we joined the column and continued towards Mehurici.
4 Q. On your way to Mehurici, did you pass any particular village?
5 A. Yes. We passed through the village of Poljanice. And just below
6 that village we came across a group of people that had been turned back
7 from Mehurici. And I was carrying my four and a half month old son, and
8 then the Muslim army and the Mujahedin approached us and they selected
9 some people. I think the oldest one was about 45 years old. And they
10 selected us into this group, and then they turned us back and he snatched
11 the child away from my arms. He gave them to my wife, and my bag, and
12 they continued along to Mehurici; whereas, we were told to go back
13 towards Maljine.
14 Q. During this time on your way to Maljine, were you subjected to
15 any insults, threats, beatings of any sort?
16 A. These people who were shepherding us, three of them had green
17 masks over their heads. They didn't beat us. We came across Ana
18 Pranjes, who was going with her aunt, called Curka - this was probably
19 her nickname and -- the Mujahedin went up to her and she had a Red Cross
20 sign and a camouflage uniform on. And he told her to take off the Red
21 Cross band, and this other one interpreted for him. He said she
22 wouldn't. He tore off the armband, as well as the chain and cross, and
23 he put it in his pocket and then he made her join our group and turned us
24 all back.
25 Q. You said you were turned all back. Could you tell us what
1 direction you were turned to now.
2 A. They took us towards Maljine. They said, "We'll see where your
3 trenches are." And as we went, we met in Poljanice a group that was
4 going towards Mehurici. These were four or five wounded people - I don't
5 remember exactly - and a woman, who was on a stretcher. She had been
6 wounded at Maljine the day before, in the leg. They ordered me to carry
7 Sreco Bobas on a wooden piece of fence and to carry him back. He
8 couldn't walk. He had entry and exit wounds in both legs.
9 We carried him to above Poljanice, and there were two or three
10 trenches there. And then a group of some 12 men were selected in front
11 of those trenches, and I thought the worst was about to happen, that they
12 would all be killed, but they didn't come to an agreement and then the
13 group was sent back to join the rest of us and then the column continued
14 towards Bikosi.
15 Q. This group of wounded people that you came upon, were they
16 escorted by any particular set of people?
17 A. They were escorted by soldiers of the Muslim army, the BH army,
18 and the Mujahedin were among them. And they all came back with us, those
19 who were escorting them and those who were escorting us. And they call
20 accompanied us. They walked on our left.
21 Q. Could you describe the physical appearance of the persons that
22 you referred to as the Mujahedins.
23 A. They had different coloured skin. They couldn't speak. They
24 could just say "Ustasha," and "bojovnik." They didn't know any other
25 words in our language. And they differed from the domestic people, of
1 course, from the locals.
2 Q. Did you finally arrive at Bikosi?
3 A. When we reached the village of Bikosi, Mijo Tavic, who suffered
4 from epilepsy, when we reached the houses there he got an attack and he
5 started shouting. And when he started shouting, they opened fire. And
6 when I saw them shooting, I turned around to tell them that he had
7 epilepsy, but I saw that they were gone. I put my hands on my head and
8 fell to the ground. And when I fell to the ground, I saw that my left
9 lower leg was stiff, and I lay on the ground and I saw a young man trying
10 to jump over a fence in a black leather jacket. And he was killed with a
11 burst of fire and he stayed there attached to the fence. I continued
12 lying on the ground.
13 Q. Could you tell us what happened to your leg that was stiff at
14 that moment.
15 A. I was shot. I was lying on the ground, and I could only feel my
16 left lower leg getting numb. I was thinking what to do. At that moment,
17 somebody shouted, "Help, I'm wounded." I suppose that one of the
18 soldiers was shooting very low and inflicted a wound on some other
19 soldier and they scattered. But again they reappeared and they shot some
20 of the people in the heads, people who were moving and wriggling too
21 much. They would be shot in the head.
22 There was one young man lying next to me. His legs were over my
23 body. He was shot in the head as well. I was afraid that they would
24 shoot me in the head, but they didn't. I somehow escaped that.
25 Q. During this -- this shooting, what were you doing?
1 A. I was lying on the road. I was thinking what to do. All of a
2 sudden I hear -- I heard a shout, "Help, are there -- is there anybody
3 alive? I am wounded." I waited for another moment to see whether there
4 was still shooting going on. When I jumped to my feet, three or four
5 other people jumped to their feet. The person who was shouting remained
6 lying on the ground, and then the three or four of us escaped from there
7 towards the village of Postinje.
8 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, I'd like to take you back to the scene when you
9 were on the ground. Were you able to actually see these people who were
10 on the ground being shot in their heads? Did you actually see it?
11 A. Yes, I saw them. I saw very well. They remained lying on the
12 ground. Blood poured from their bodies. And they couldn't move. Those
13 who left were the five of us, one after another, and the rest remained
14 lying on the road.
15 Q. Approximately how many people ended up being in that group?
16 A. There were some seven or eight, as far as I could tell. I'm sure
17 that there must have been seven or eight.
18 Q. Could you tell us how many shots you heard fired.
19 A. I heard bursts of fire. I don't know how many bursts there were,
20 but there were a lot of rifles opening fire. There were bursts of fire
21 from many rifles.
22 Q. And when the firing ceased, could you tell us how many people
23 were in your group now.
24 A. In which group do you mean? Which group are you referring to?
25 Q. The final group that came across Poljanice that were lying on the
2 A. About 30 remained lying on the road.
3 Q. And when the firing ceased, how many were there?
4 A. When the shooting stopped, how many people there were? Are you
5 referring to the bodies of the people who remained lying on the road or
6 the ones who survived?
7 Q. The ones who survived.
8 A. Only five of us survived. And we fled towards Postinje village,
9 and then we stopped by some willow trees and we started dressing each
10 other's wounds. And then two men came with rifles from Bila village and
11 they started shouting towards us, "Surrender." I turned around together
12 with Pavo Barac. We started running up a meadow. They shot after us.
13 There was the buzz of bullets, but they missed us. We crossed a river
14 and started walking towards Orasac village. As we came out of a little
15 wood, we heard a rifle burst.
16 Q. Excuse me. Before we go on, could you tell the Trial Chamber, if
17 you can, the names of the people who were with you and what wounds you
18 saw that they had.
19 A. Pavo Barac was not wounded. There was Darko Puselja; he had a
20 gunshot wound through the left shoulder and the left side of the ribs.
21 Zeljko Puselja was wounded in one of his arms. I had to hold the wire
22 for him to crawl under. There was also a man called Marijan, whose last
23 name I don't know. He was from a different village. He had a scar on
24 his right hip.
25 Q. And you, what did you have?
1 A. I was wounded in the left lower leg.
2 Q. Thank you. On your approach to Orasac, could you tell the Trial
3 Chamber what you observed, if you did observe anything at all.
4 A. We were walking towards Orasac, and we came to a thick spruce
5 trees. That was the safest. There was a road that leads from Orasac to
6 Han Bila and the old Bila village. Actually, the road went to Han Bila.
7 I'm not familiar with the terrain. And we saw the village being looted,
8 furniture being driven away in lorries. We stayed for 30 hours there
9 among those trees.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Marjanovic.
11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, I think -- [Microphone not
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are going to
14 make a 25-minute break. We shall resume at twenty-five to 6.00, and we
15 will continue without a break until 7.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.09 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 5.35 p.m.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. We resume at
19 the envisaged time. It is twenty-five to 6.00.
20 I give the floor to Mrs. Benjamin to continue her
22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, before the interruption, you indicated to the
24 Court that you had gotten to the point of Orasac. And could you tell the
25 Trial Chamber when you made your escape if there was a particular plan
1 in mind as to exactly where you were you were planning to go to and where
2 were your -- what was your intention and where had you planned to go?
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Stop.
4 [Interpretation] We have a problem. The transcript is frozen.
5 There is no interpretation. Let's check what's going on.
6 [In English] Can you repeat your question.
7 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Marjanovic, before the interruption, you related to the Trial
9 Chamber that you had reached the village of Orasac. When you made your
10 escape, did you have a particular plan in mind and what was your
11 intention? Where had you planned to go?
12 A. The plan was to go to Guca Gora. We arrived in Guca Gora from
13 Orasac village. It was around half past 3.00 or 4.00 in the morning, on
14 the following morning. There was nobody in Guca Gora. There was just
15 one or two persons. I knocked on a door. The door was locked. There
16 was nobody there.
17 And then we proceeded towards Han Bila. When we arrived close to
18 a forest, there was fire opened on us, and then we turned right towards
19 Kula village -- actually, Sarici village. There was our flag there. We
20 could see the flag. We arrived there. We showed ourselves, and we saw
21 that the HVO was there, and we came to them and they transferred us to
22 the hospital in Nova Bila.
23 Q. Were you admitted into hospital in Nova Bila?
24 A. Yes. I was hospitalised for some ten days or so.
25 Q. And were your injuries or your illness diagnosed at the hospital?
1 A. We were given injections and tablets and a tetanus prophylactic.
2 That was to prevent our wounds from becoming infected.
3 Q. But what was the prognosis? What did the doctors find? What did
4 they say was wrong with you?
5 A. I don't understand. What do you mean by what was wrong with me
6 and how I should be treated? I don't understand.
7 Q. You presented yourself to the hospital, and you told us that you
8 stayed some 10 to 12 days. What did the doctors treat you for when you
9 got to the hospital?
10 A. My left lower leg was treated, because I sustained a gunshot
11 wound through my left lower leg, and this is what I was treated for in
12 the hospital in Nova Bila.
13 Q. And could you for the benefit of the Court tell us when you
14 received that wound.
15 A. I was wounded on the 8th of June, 1993.
16 Q. And what were you wounded with?
17 A. It was a gunshot injury. I had a bullet through my left lower
19 Q. And by whom were you wounded?
20 A. I was wounded by the Muslim army and the Mujahedin.
21 Q. Thank you. Did there come a time when you were reunited with
22 your family?
23 A. My family was detained in Mehurici for 17 days. After the 17
24 days, there was an exchange in Nova Bila, and that's when I was reunited
25 with them, after 17 days in Nova Bila.
1 Q. And did you continue to live in Nova Bila?
2 A. Yes, up to 1994.
3 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where you live at present.
4 A. I live in Croatia, in a place near Daruvar.
5 Q. And could you, for the benefit of the Court, tell us how you feel
7 A. A bit excited, I should say.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this is the
10 examination-in-chief. Thanks.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Benjamin.
12 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence is going to lead
14 their cross-examination tomorrow.
15 But before we adjourn for the day, I would like to ask the
16 witness a very short question.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] To the question of the
19 Prosecution, who asked you how you're feeling at the moment, you said
20 that you are a bit excited. Are you excited because you are here or are
21 you excited or upset because of what happened to you? What difference do
22 you make? We don't know whether you are upset or excited because you are
23 here in the courtroom or upset or excited about the events, about what
24 happened to you. What can you tell us about that?
25 A. A lot of things have happened from the moment I was wounded, so I
1 am psychologically upset. And this is the main cause.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So
3 Prosecution has asked you about your -- the way you were wounded, but
4 when it comes to the medical description of your injury, we have not come
5 very far. You were injured by a bullet. Can you tell us about the
6 trajectory of that bullet. Did it go through the leg? Do you still have
7 the bullet in your leg? Did you have to undergo a surgery to have the
8 bullet removed from your leg?
9 A. It went through my leg. I had an entry and an exit wound. I
10 have particle -- asphalt particles in my muscle and also the particles of
11 the bullet shell.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the doctors who examined
13 you, did they tell you anything about the calibre of the bullet that
14 wounded you?
15 A. No, they didn't tell me anything about the calibre. They only
16 told me that I had a gunshot injury. I don't know what kind of a bullet
17 it was. I believe that it was fired from an automatic rifle, as far as I
18 could tell.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Once you were treated, was --
20 once your treatment was completed, did you receive the history of your
21 illness, the description of your treatment, or did the doctor tell you
22 orally what had happened to you?
23 A. Yes, I have the history from 1992 and from 1993, from both times
24 when I was treated.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the things
1 that happened to you in 1993.
2 A. Yes, I do have the medical records from 1993, and I have all the
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Another short question, because
5 we have some time. I want you to clarify something for us. You said
6 that your family was detained for 17 days. Do I understand you well?
7 Your family was your wife and your children? Was there anybody else in
8 addition to your wife and children?
9 A. My wife, my two children, and my in-laws, and her entire family.
10 They were in her village. The -- all of the villagers were detained,
11 some 280 people altogether from that village were detained.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you confirm that your
13 children, who were minor at the time, were detained for 17 days?
14 A. Yes. One of them was four-and-a-half months old, and the other
15 one was three-and-a-half years old at the time.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you please clarify for the
17 benefit of the Judge on my right and can you tell us where your wife and
18 your children were detained. Where exactly were they imprisoned?
19 A. When they were exchanged, they told me that they had been in a
20 sports hall in Mehurici.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So it was a hall in
22 Mehurici. Your children, who were very young at the time, do they suffer
23 any psychological consequences?
24 A. The younger one doesn't want to go back to Bosnia. He doesn't
25 want to visit. He still is afraid. He suffers some fear dating back
1 from that time.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Sir, you understand
3 that you have to come back for the cross-examination tomorrow. We shall
4 adjourn earlier than usually, because the Defence, who are on your left,
5 are going to ask you questions but they only want to do that tomorrow
6 because they planned for your testimony tomorrow. Your testimony is very
7 important, and the Defence have to ask you good and useful questions in
8 order to arrive at the truth. They therefore need a certain time for
10 You will be taken back to your hotel. You are not to talk to
11 anybody about your testimony. You're going to come back tomorrow
12 afternoon at quarter past 2.00. And after having been cross-examined by
13 the Defence, you will be able to leave. Your testimony for the time
14 being is over and will resume tomorrow at quarter to 2.00.
15 I would like to ask Madam Usher to take you out of the courtroom.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. I would like
18 to give the registrar my order that has been signed by myself.
19 I would like to give to my legal officer the decision regarding
20 the expert. Unfortunately, this is not going to be registered, because
21 it is already almost 6.00.
22 There's one more decision pending, and that is the decision on
23 the admission of facts. We still have a couple minutes to go back to the
24 issue of the witnesses who may be granted protective measures. The
25 Chamber would like to know when there are witnesses who appear on behalf
1 of the Prosecution or on behalf of the Defence, when their turn comes,
2 the Chamber would like to know as much as possible in advance in writing,
3 and they would like to be aware of all the elements that may be involved
4 in granting protective measures. We would like to be aware of all the
5 elements. The Chamber understands that in some cases it is not possible
6 because problems may arise at the last moment, and we understand that.
7 However, there are certain matters and things that may be anticipated,
8 and we would like to be aware of them in advance and, if possible, in
9 writing because it will enable the Chamber to render a decision in
11 You understand that this may be useful because sometimes this
12 will -- demonstrates elements that we otherwise would not be aware of.
13 Obviously, this will be subject to your possibilities and
14 circumstances, but for the witnesses which are of the paramount
15 importance, we would like to avoid any difficulties in the future. This
16 was just an observation of a technical nature. There are modalities
17 which will allow us to accelerate the proceedings.
18 As far as the planning is concerned, one or two witnesses have
19 been envisaged. And based on the previous experiences, we may say that
20 we may even have three witnesses a day, providing that questions are put
21 about important elements only. However, it depends on the parties to
22 look into that and see whether this is feasible.
23 It is the obligation of the parties to respect certain Rules, but
24 in any case, I believe that we can have as many as three witnesses
25 prepared for one day. Some witnesses will obviously require more time.
1 But it is for both parties to take this into account. So far we've had
2 one or two witnesses a day, and this has been the rhythm so far. It is
3 obvious that it is also very useful to envisage a second witness, because
4 it may speed up things. And I would like to thank the Prosecution for
5 making sure to have a witness on standby.
6 As far as the witnesses are concerned, the witness who will be
7 arriving tomorrow and other witnesses, what have you planned for the rest
8 of the week?
9 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, in that respect, can
10 we please go into private session?
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We shall now go into private
13 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in open session again,
25 so I give the floor to the representative of the Prosecution.
1 MR. WITHOPF: Mr. President, Your Honours, at the beginning of
2 the today's court session you asked about the Prosecution's position on
3 the Defence reply on the matter of adjudicated facts. The Prosecution
4 has noticed with great interest the Defence has withdrawn quite a number
5 of the proposed facts. Otherwise, there is no reason for the Prosecution
6 to change its position. The Prosecution keeps its position as detailed
7 in its filings.
8 I wish, however, to take this opportunity to again emphasise that
9 all facts stemming from the Blaskic trial judgement have been appealed
10 and they continue to be under appeal. The Appeals Chamber has not yet
11 rendered its decision.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for this
13 clarification. So the Chamber notes that orally you are telling us that
14 you will not provide any written reply to the response of the Defence and
15 that therefore we can render our own decision now. Is that right? Thank
17 You have also conveyed to us that regarding the legal aspect,
18 some of the facts are currently before the Appeals Chamber, to the extent
19 that they have been appealed. Very well.
20 MR. WITHOPF: That's completely correct, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was the third point that
22 you had to raise?
23 MR. WITHOPF: The third point, Mr. President, Your Honours, is
24 the video footage in relation to the witness Nenad Bogeljic. You
25 certainly do recall that the Prosecution played four distinct portions of
1 a videotape. The Prosecution has made all efforts to get these portions
2 being isolated. These efforts have been successful, and we are now ready
3 to tender the respective CDs into evidence, please.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you have the CDs at hand?
5 Because if so, we can do it immediately. We can distribute them, which
6 would save some time.
7 MR. WITHOPF: Yes, Mr. President, we have the CDs ready for
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we are going to
10 undertake this technical measure, which consists of providing the CDs to
11 the registrar. And I assume that there should be a copy for everyone.
12 Before giving the floor to the Defence for their remarks about
13 these CDs, I note at this point - but we will certainly have more
14 information after your comments - that we have received CDs which are
15 only visual, without sound, with four clips or sequences, numbered 1, 2,
16 3, 4; from 1425 to 1735, 19 to 35, 15 25, et cetera. This must be the
17 beginning and the end of the tapes. The times have been indicated on the
19 What has the Defence to tell us regarding these CDs?
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I don't
21 have anything to say now, because the Prosecution informed us earlier on
22 that it was not possible to remove the sound from the CDs. However, on
23 these CDs that we have been given, it is indicated that there is no
24 sound. So our proposal to the Prosecution was that we have a look before
25 these recordings are admitted into evidence, that we review them to make
1 sure that they are the same clips that we saw in the presence of the
2 witness, because of course the Trial Chamber wouldn't like to admit
3 anything else into evidence. For those reasons, we expected the
4 Prosecution to show us these clips in the normal manner, after which we
5 would of course concur with the admission of this exhibit.
6 The next point I wish to make has to do with your suggestion this
7 morning. We will check the tape that we tendered to the Trial Chamber as
8 Exhibit Number 1. And if there are any questions in that connection, we
9 will take the liberty of addressing you again.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I turn again to Mr. Withopf.
11 It appears that the Defence understood that there was sound on these
12 tapes. I have just indicated that I read out that there was no sound.
13 Is there sound or not? Because when we saw the clips, there was no
14 sound. So could you inform us additionally about that.
15 MR. WITHOPF: Having anticipated this comment made by Defence,
16 there is no sound on the CDs and we are making efforts to replay the
17 respective portions right now. It will take a few seconds only, please.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What we could do,
19 to avoid encumbering the Defence -- who have more important things to do
20 like preparing the cross-examination -- so they won't have to review the
21 tape what we could do is to play it straight away on our screens. Then
22 you'll be able to view them yourself, and that will put an end to the
24 That is what the Prosecution is suggesting. Does that meet with
25 the satisfaction of the Defence?
1 In that case, I turn to the technical staff of the Prosecution to
2 ask them to play these tapes.
3 [Videotape played]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We've seen the first clip. So
5 I assumed it is the first.
6 [Videotape played]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So that was the second. We can
8 now see the third.
9 [Videotape played]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the fourth?
11 [Videotape played]
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The four clips have
13 just been played for us. On the part of the Defence, are there any
14 remarks to be made or any points to raise?
15 Very well. Mr. Registrar, will you please give me an exhibit
16 number for these CDs.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the exhibit number will be P63.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, P63. This is a
19 Prosecution exhibit.
20 In the future, if there would be similar videos for admission,
21 this is a demonstration of how we should proceed in the interest of
22 gaining time.
23 As we still have some time left, I am looking at the Defence to
24 see whether they have any information to convey to us regarding the
25 activities in connection with the archives. Is everything going well?
1 Are there any difficulties? Can Mr. Bourgon provide us with some
2 information about that.
3 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Very
4 quickly, to inform the Chamber that we're in contact with the delegation
5 of the European Union of the Monitoring Mission in Sarajevo. We are
6 going to have access to the documents as of next week, on the 19th and
7 20th of February, and we can continue our observation on Saturday the
8 21st; which means that according to the authorities in Sarajevo we will
9 be in possession of the documents for no longer than three days after our
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Those are good
12 news, which will allow us to make progress and which will allow the
13 Defence to have in their possession documents which may be of use to
14 them, either during the cross-examination of witnesses that may come in
15 the future or within the framework of exhibits for their own case.
16 Are there any other points that the Defence would like to raise?
17 As we have time, make the best of it.
18 Mr. Dixon, you have nothing to say?
19 MR. DIXON: [Microphone not activated] No, no, Your Honour,
20 nothing to say.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Residovic, you have
22 nothing either?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Therefore, having
25 exhausted the agenda for this hearing, I invite everyone to come back
1 tomorrow at 2.15 for the continuation of the witness testimony and his
2 cross-examination. You will have in your possession tomorrow already in
3 the morning the document regarding our ruling on Witness 108.
4 Thank you, and good evening. Until tomorrow.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.17 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of
7 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.